Sex-Starved Husband. Will Work For Sex.

Divorcebusting.com

My wife and I are 30 years old with three sons--two 12-year-olds and a baby. We adopted the twins about six years ago. The biggest issue, by far, in our marriage is sex. Simply put, I'd like to have some sometime and she would not.

We have gone as long as six months to a year without sex in the past, and it's not quite that bad now. We usually get one time per month. She insists that this has nothing to do with hormones or her menstrual cycle, but I've actually marked a calendar and you could predict moon phases by it. She rejects me for weeks, then initiates sex on a night of her choosing, usually by going to bed naked. I always go along with this, figuring there's no advantage to be gained by rejecting her for revenge. We have sex one time, she expresses great enjoyment and deep satisfaction, we snuggle and drift off to sleep. But for me, this is like a kid on Christmas morning with all the presents opened; it was great, but I know it's going to be a long time before it happens again, and I'm going to be rejected many times between now and then.

I feel hurt by her rejection, and I know I'm angry and irritable. I've talked very openly with her, and she with me, but I'm not seeing changes. Right now, I'm trying to go for a month without saying or doing anything sexually suggestive. I admit I constantly touch her sexually, say sexual things, and ask for sex. I know I pester her, so I'm trying to stop that and see what happens. I'm almost two weeks in. She's noticed that something positive (from her point of view) is happening, but there's no indication of any desire returning so far. My (irrational?) fear is that she'll decide she likes the new asexual eunuch/husband version of me and I'll be an even bigger disappointment to her if I decide not to be this sexless guy anymore. Not talking to her about what I'm doing is the worst.

Some ideas on why we're having this problem:

We've both gained a LOT of weight since we met. Stressful jobs, kids--all the excuses. I find her irrestible. She finds me resistible. I lost over 100 pounds two years ago, but it made no lasting difference in our sex life and I gained it back.
Our house is a wreck. We bought a 100-year-old money pit thinking we'd take our time and restore it--and then we took on the twins, and we were just trying to survive. Recently I completed a nursery for the baby and two new bathrooms are coming, but our bedroom is a disaster and constantly cluttered. I know that's not romantic, but I don't know what she wants me to do about it when she has four other rooms plus the outdoors she wants me to handle first. When I finished the nursery, framed, wired, insulated, glazed, drywalled, paneled, doored, floored, trimmed and painted by myself, her comment was "I didn't think you'd be able to do it."
She's struggled with depression. She won't see a therapist, but whenever sex comes up, depression comes out. She has medication from her general practitioner, which I find wacky. I wish she'd see a doctor who specializes in the brain if she thinks there's a problem in the brain.

I can't help but be enraged by her rejection--it seems so willful. She enjoys sex so much (or pretends?) on the rare occasions we have it, but the next day it's back to the ice. I've seen versions of Michele's "Just do it" advice before, and it made sense to me, so I've asked her many times to give me three minutes to try to CHANGE her mood. She let me try it once; she went wild, we had great sex, she loved every moment (or pretended?) and promptly went back to rejecting me. She's never let me try that since.

I'd honestly like to be less angry at her, and I'm trying, but it's hard. The best example I can think of is the year she gave me one of those silly "I Owe You" sex coupon books you get in gag stores for Christmas. I guess she thought it was a funny joke to give her sex-starved husband a book of promises about sex, but I took her seriously. At that time we hadn't had sex for about six months. I brought it to her, and the first thing she did was go through the book--which she hadn't read before giving it to me--and tell me which pages she wasn't going to do . . . sex in the backyard, a couple of others.
Well, OK, not much in the spirit, but fair enough, especially since our backyard fence is chain link. $;\)$ Over the next two years, I brought that book to her dozens of times. I tried to use the coupons for sex, for a shower together, for a backrub . . . . eventually, out of sheer desperation, I tried every one.

In the end I burned the damn thing. I don't really know why she gave it to me. She couldn't bring herself to honor one single coupon out of that stupid gag gift. I don't know whether she intended to honor it when she gave it to me, but I can't fathom why she would:

1. Give me such a gift, knowing how depressed I already was by her constant rejection, if she was going to treat it as a joke, or
2. Give me such a gift, intending to let me use it to spark sex between us, and then be so disgusted by me that she couldn't even bring herself to give me a backrub.

I have never cheated and will never cheat. I don't want a divorce. I don't want another woman. I want to make love to my wife. I love her and I promised her my whole life, and I will give it to her.
That said, it kills me that she's set this Catch-22 trap for me. I can't have sex with any other woman because I loved her so much that I was eager to stand up and forswear all other women forever. This is a big thing to promise if you think about it. I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles, or any other feature my wife doesn't have--but I was willing to give up all the possibilities out there because I thought, in return, I would get to be with her. Now I find that I don't get to be with her. I get to be the good father to our kids, and I get to be the good handyman who restores her dream house for her, and I get to drive the junk car so she can drive the car she wants. These are all things I WANT to do, but I can't help but notice that it seems like it only matters that I want to do them because she wants me to do them too. I never wanted to be her roommate.

Maybe I can give you a little insight, being in your wife's role in our marriage. I'm just now beginning to work through this, so bear with me and maybe it can help both of us. (bear with me--get it?!)

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. You're certainly more patient than my H, who recently left me for someone else because of a MLC and...SSM? But he absolutely refused to do anything around the house, even pick up his socks, so you're definitely doing better in that area.

For a long time I've felt as if I just work at our home. Nothing gets done if I don't do it, H was entitled to do whatever "life-giving" activities he wanted but I only rarely got a night out with friends (dinner, not drinks). There was just an expectation that I'd take care of everything. And there was little emotional support, and absolutely no emotional intimacy. No pet names, no holding hands, no kiss goodnight, no interest in anything I was doing, not even "goodbye" when we parted in the morning or "hi" when he got home. No calls during the day to touch base, but if I was running errands I could count on 4-5 calls about "I thought you said you'd be home by now." I frequently worked 60+ hour weeks, but was still expected to keep up the house, pay the bills, run errands and drive D to any number of things. I was resentful and exhausted and felt very far away from him. On his part, I am sure he felt rejected and unloved, which in turn led to his emotional withdrawal and ultimately his leaving. Both of us stuck, neither able to move until the MLC hit.

In retrospect, I should have tried harder. There was no telling him that I needed emotional intimacy to feel physical, because he was already too resentful to budge. But someone had to make the first move and I wish it had been me. Yes, there were hormonal issues--a couple of pregnancy losses, perimenopause then full-on menopause, the effects of antidepressants I was taking to be less irritable (okay, enraged) due to menopause.

I could see me doing something very much like the coupon book, and then responding in a similar way. And that's because I really really wanted things to be different, I really wanted to be able to feel sexual, and I fully intended to try. However, without any emotional connection I just couldn't do it. It wasn't a conscious, manipulative thing--altho I'm sure it feels that way from the other side--but I would've felt guilty for not being able to "perform" and that would have contributed to a downward spiral.

What would have made a difference? Hard to say, but I know for sure I'd have tried harder if I felt loved, if I felt I was a priority in his life. It's all those little things--holding hands, spontaneous kisses, an arm around the shoulder, refilling my coffee cup when he refilled his own, noticing a new hairstyle or expressing appreciation for keeping the household running or telling me once--just once--that I looked nice. Those things go a very long way. I'm not saying you're not doing them, cuz I don't know, just giving you something to think about. Someone has to budge; if you both keep doing the same things, you'll get the same results. Think back about what "worked" to get you both in the mood when you were having sex more frequently. Maybe do some romantic things but don't follow them up with requests for sex.

I hope that's helpful, and that I didn't just make this about me.

Hiya

I thought I would just put down a couple of comments from my point of view, bearing in mind I don't know you so just take what you need from them or please feel free to disregard.

For a lot of women sex is a complex issue. You need to feel calm, relaxed, loved and emotionally supported. For me sex is not so much about the physical act, although don't get me wrong that is important, it is about feeling close to someone so the cuddles and the touch and feeling special are just as important. As soon as I feel pressure I back off right away but I see you are in a catch 22 as you don't want your wife to get used to that and think that this is how things are. Have you read Dr. Ellen's books? There are some good wooing tips in there and Michelle's advice is also spot on.

I think you have pretty insightful observations on it all. Maybe she is feeling the pressure with the house, kids and job. Also many women struggle with self-image if they have put on a bit of weight and have all these other responsibilities on top � although never suggest this to her!! I would suggest finding a way of making her feel like a sexual being again. I think the gift of the book was a way of saying that she would like to be that person but is not sure how to go about it and then felt pressured.

Start really really slow, take the pressure and expectation off for a while. Build up her confidence, take time for yourselves and make her feel secure and safe that you have no expectations of her at this stage. Things like holding hands and subtle compliments are really important to a woman but also, if done at the wrong time can be annoying so don't be put off if she brushes you off. It is not out-and-out rejection it just means that other things are a priority for her at that moment or she might just not be used to it, it may be a shock. If she brushes you off look at the situation she is in at the time - is she dealing with the kids, or cooking dinner in which case she will be busy. Learn and move on and experiment with affection at a different time.

Us women are complex beings! We often expect men to just �know� and sometimes, like me, learn the hard way that they don�t.

Hope this helps and good luck. Use the boards for a sounding board if needs be!

Hey Bear..

Just a comment while breezing through...

Clear out, clean up and make your bedroom a sanctuary. Clutter builds on depression. Make your bedroom the number one priority.

Mom's will sacrifice (without even knowing it) everything for their kids and spouse.. especially when depressed. She doesn't know how to put herself first, or her way of doing it is minimal.

Do a 180.. put something she doesn't feel she deserves first. If you or both of you can't renovate the room, at least clear out the stuff that doesn't belong there. Make it a place of calm. When my husband and I would work on something together, I always felt better, even though I'd be so garbled in my self defensive communication.

The book "His Needs, Her Needs" would be a good read. One point.. giving your wife affection is a basic need women have which leads to the EVENT of sex.

Be nice to her, a touch here and there.. a look when things are wild. Seduce her. The most compelling seduction starts well in advance.. that morning, the day before the 'event'. If she's so tied up emotionally, those knots need to be loosened, gently. And it's easy to do... just be nice, smile... give a hug, do a chore, play with her hair. Don't expect results because well.. you'd just look like a panting hound dog.

Your seduction induces her brain to calm, her body to relax. As much as Mr. Weiner Pecker wants to go a visitin', put him aside. Give her comfort, give her closeness, give her intimacy without the 'threat' of sex. The more relaxed she is, the more you both gain because it opens both of you to each other.

Give yourself your wife.

*hugs*

JCJ and Hoosier,

Theoretically, those are all great suggestions, but my experience has been -- both in my own life and having spent several years on the SSM boards -- that backing off will only lead our poor Silly Old Bear to even LESS nookie.

Most LD/ND women, when their HD husbands pressure them, feel "pressure."
And most LD/ND women, when their HD husbands DON'T pressure them, report feeling "pressure, because I know that he wants it, and he's disappointed in me at the moment."

And in most cases, the LD/ND spouse will report RELIEF that the higher-drive spouse has backed off, and sometimes they'll even say things like "See? Isn't this nice? Why can't you be like this all the time? If you'd just stop thinking about SEX all the time, we could have a MUCH happier marriage!"

The problems are much more complex than having the high-drive husband woo the low-drive wife, unfortunately, as Michele so brilliantly documents in her "Sex-Starved Marriage" book.

I wish I had some answers for you, Bear. And there's CERTAINLY nothing wrong with trying some of these suggestions. But I'd only suggest them if you feel like doing them because these are some of the right things to do to honor and cherish your wife ANYWAY ... NOT because you think they will lead to more sex. The ball, ultimately, is in HER court, and until she's willing to do some serious work to try to restore her desire, the odds are long ones.

Puppy

I know for sure that she's stressed out. We work very similar jobs, but she works in a worse environment than I do and there's a lot of pressure on her. She puts a lot of it on herself. And we're both exhausted by the kids and the house; I don't blame her a bit. Well, I shouldn't, but as I read what I wrote, maybe I'm not doing a good job of not blaming her. It's hard, though. People talk about "doing the little things" and "keeping romance alive" but it's hard to be romantic the second time when the first time didn't mean anything. Another example from our past, if for no other reason than that I really hold a grudge:

We were both working half-days at a rural building during the summer. She wanted us to go to lunch with another couple, and she and I had driven separately. As they went to the restaurant, I noticed some beautiful purple flowers at the roadside, along a railroad bed. They were just weeds, I suppose, but they were pretty. I stopped and picked some, along with some white, lacy flowers and a few yellow daisies. I arranged them the way I wanted them, cut the stems, and peeled a few corn leaves, which I wrapped and tied neatly around the bundle. It looked like a professional flower arrangement, and I was proud of it.
I swear to you, when I walked in, gave her a kiss and presented her with those flowers, she said, "Only my husband would wrap corn around weeds." She tossed them on the table and left them there when we left. It broke my heart. When I told her, she apologized, but it was as if she couldn't understand why I would let such a little thing bother me.

I do the little things, though, and that's another Catch-22. Doing the little things is good, not doing them is bad. On this we all agree. But once you do them, then the analysis of WHY you did them begins. Did she really look beautiful, or was that a ploy to get sex? (No, she looks beautiful.) Are you only holding hands with her so you can have your filthy dirty way with her?
I do dishes and laundry daily, especially right now as I'm home all day for awhile and she's working half days. I change diapers, I bathe the baby, I cook dinner, I make breakfast, mow the lawn . . . . and I'm the one framing the floors for the new bathroom she wants, and finishing the attic so we can have less clutter, and installing central air and new windows . . . . it just feels like all of this counts for nothing.
Absolutely she takes care of the baby more than I do, but that's mostly because I'm on a ladder when I'm not crawling in the basement.

She does NOT take time out to do fun things for herself enough, but not by my choice. A couple of years ago she did at least start taking a "girls' trip" with my mom, sister and others in my family. They go to Wisconsin or Minnesota and act silly for a long weekend. She went last week, and I gladly kept all three boys at home. We were fine and she had a great time. Then she and I used her mother's day present--I got her tickets to see her favorite country singer a couple of hours away, and we made a date of it.
I know there are husbands who are distant, but I honestly don't think that's me. I make it a point to tell her when she looks especially good, or when she does something that makes me happy.

I know what you're saying about the coupon book, too. Intellectually, what you're saying makes sense, but it's hard for me to trust it. I feel like, no matter how many ways I say it, she has no understanding that for me, being stressed and exhausted by kids and work means I need to make love to the woman I love more than if everything were fine. I honestly think I'd need her a lot less if life were coasting along easily and I had time to go out and work at my hobbies. There ain't no "boys' trip" in the cards, either.

Truth is, my marriage is not as one-sided as I've made it sound here, and I know that. But it FEELS that one-sided from in here.

Anyway, I screwed up last night. We had a great Father's Day. My wife made a huge breakfast, and she and the boys gave me presents. They didn't get me a card because they rejected all the ones that appeared to be written for people with drunk, lazy fathers who blow up barbecue grills (good thinking.) My wife got me something I really wanted. Normally, I'm the big present guy--I love presents and surprises, so she gets big ones and elaborate surprise schemes. She asked me what I wanted, and I said something like, "Don't worry about it, everything I want is always too expensive or you don't want to get it or whatever."
Well, that wasn't fair, was it? I thought about it and apologized for not taking her at face value. I think she was shocked. She's used to having me be surly most of the time now, I suppose.
Anyway, we had a nice day together, then I got paged out and was kept running until after midnight. When I got back, I just couldn't go to bed. I'm closing in on my second week of being asexual, and it's starting to wear on me. One of the worst things about being rejected by your own wife over and over is that she still expects you to sleep next to her--and even cuddle. I've got nothing against cuddling, but if I'm on a forced diet, I don't want a piece of cheesecake suspended over my mouth by a string, either. So I posted here, and then some more, and read some threads. About four in the morning she came downstairs and saw what I was doing. I felt bad and went back up to bed with her. She could tell I wasn't happy, but I'm not supposed to be discussing these things with her while I do the month of the eunuch, right? She's not supposed to be told what I'm doing or why.
So I just tried to say over and over that she didn't do anything wrong, I was just having a hard night, but she was clearly not buying it, so she felt worse, and so did I. Finally I asked her whether she had thought about reading Michele's book. She's read the introduction and plans to read the rest, so I just came clean.
She did say that she'd noticed a change for the better. I guess that's something. The problem is that, from my point of view, I'm making a change for the worse.

Time to say something good about my wife before everyone thinks I hate her.

My wife is a fantastic mother.
My wife is gorgeous. She thinks she's fat, but she still has all her curves. When she smiles, there is light.
My wife tolerates my volunteer work in EMS and politics.
My wife can make me feel better when no one else can.
My wife knows there's a problem in our marriage. She is trying, off and on, to make it better.
If I can convince my wife to relax enough to have sex with me, the sex is wonderful.

SOB (ok, so we need a better nickname for you),

Tell us more about what the work responsibilities around the house were BEFORE you were home full-time temporarily. Does your wife pull her fair share, or do you treat her like a bit of a princess?

I'm sorry, the flowers thing was just plain RUDE, and would have broken my heart, too.

My advice would be for you to do a "180" and move to another bedroom in your home. When she asks you why, tell her that you cannot bear to sleep next to her and not have a healthy sex life nor even any real intimacy.

Puppy

Quote:

I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles

Wow. I caught your thread title and thought I could offer an answer to both our problems, I have a LOT of work to get done, and H that won't help with the work or the sex! But then I read the quoted line and I guess it will never happen between us and it's not because of the bold print item. $\:\($ Anyway, just kidding.

As for moving to another bedroom, I advise caution and really think about how this will affect you too. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying to think about your emotions and feelings by taking away the limited physical connection you do have.

Originally Posted By: WCW

Quote:

I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles

WCW,

I recommended this because SillyOldBear indicated he was struggling with laying next to her with no intimacy. I also think he needs to be less available to her, and take back some of the control of who initiates sex in their relationship.

But mostly, I just think he needs to do something dramatically different -- a 180.

Puppy

I understand your advice Puppy, and don't disagree. I am saying don't cut off the nose to spite the face or if you do make sure you are ready for plastic surgery or to wear a bandage.

Bear, also waiting to hear more about your W and how she contributes to nurturing the M with you. Does she?

Originally Posted By: WCW

I understand your advice Puppy, and don't disagree. I am saying don't cut off the nose to spite the face or if you do make sure you are ready for plastic surgery or to wear a bandage.

LOL; good point!

Quote:

As for moving to another bedroom, I advise caution and really think about how this will affect you too. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying to think about your emotions and feelings by taking away the limited physical connection you do have.

This is just my opinion but I think moving from the bed is the worst thing you can do. My W moved to another room at the end of December and that pretty much ended any type "intimacy" that we had, and I think, lead to the place we are now. if you're in the same bed then there is a connection..when you're not then that connection vanishes. JMO.

I'm not going to leave the bed. I stay up late when I can't handle it. Sometimes I take long walks, sometimes I sit at the computer and use the time do online stuff I otherwise wouldn't have time to do.

She pulls more than her share. And I guess there's no point in being totally secretive about everything; we're both school teachers in the same district, but she's teaching summer school this year and I'm not. That's why I'm home at the moment. When I say I do laundry and dishes, I don't mean I do all of it. I'd say I do more dishes and she does more laundry for most of the year. When I'm home all day, it makes more sense for me to do it. Vacuuming/dusting is a Shop Vac proposition in our construction zone, so I guess I do more of that, but all in all, when we're both working full time, I'm sure she does more housework than I do. Besides, she gets off work earlier than I do, so she usually ends up picking up the kids and getting their homework started. The twins lived crazy lives before we adopted them, and they still have serious emotional problems, so this is not easy. I'm not saying she's lazy around the house; I'm saying I've been advised before that if I would just pitch in and help, our problems would be solved, and I've found that isn't true.

But I tell my students and my kids that you can't control what the other people do, you only control you. I need to live that way. The advice about the bedroom is spot on. It's just not a romantic place at all. The door lock has been broken forever, since the dog locked herself in and I had to break open the antique lock. The door wouldn't even stay closed without a prop. With the kids next door, I know that worried her. So today I removed all traces of the old antique knob and lockset ("Patented 1863") and installed a new lockset that holds the door firmly and locks securely. Next will be to donate enough old clothes to GoodWill that we won't have to have piles of clothing in the room. After that, that room is going to be the first to get new windows, because that's what I need before I can rip out the rest of the crumbling plaster and build a room where she'll feel relaxed.

I'm telling you, none of you can understand how terrible this house is. If only I had cancer, Home Makeover would come build us a new house. I really think the house is a bottleneck. I don't think she can relax here. But the thing is, it's her dream house. She just had to have it, and I just had to get it for her. It has the potential to be a wonderful place, but right now it's all potential. Frankly, I feel like she thinks it should be done by now, and the fact that I don't move faster on getting the house done shows how inadequate I am. That's probably wrong, but that's how it feels.

I'm really rambling here, but it feels good to talk to people who aren't involved. I've asked my wife to go to counseling with me, but I get the soft rejection. She says yes, puts on a brave face, nods through tears, but nothing comes of it. I'm thinking about doing the phone session by myself if she won't join me, but I want to give her a chance to read the book first.

WCW, no offense meant or taken. I just meant that I don't think she thinks in terms of the things I've sacrificed to be with her at all. The goalposts move. One of the things I've sacrificed is the chance to make love to any of those kinds of women, and yes, that includes women with small breasts. But no, I'm not looking for anything outside my marriage.

I think I'm a pretty good husband overall. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't gamble. I don't stay out late. I have a forge in the toolshed that hasn't seen a fire for three years now because I don't have time to do any metalwork anymore. I have fishing poles, but I don't go fishing. At most I take the family and bait hooks for the kids. I love to go shooting, and I haven't given up my gun club membership, but I haven't been shooting since November. I loved jiu-jitsu, but the classes were held an hour away on weekday evenings, and I just couldn't justify the time away from the family.
When we got married, she'd never been allowed to choose her own car, so when we both got jobs, we went looking. She picked out a bright red Camaro with t-tops. I hated that car, but it was her dream car, so we got it. The idea was that soon we'd be able to get something else newer and it'd be my turn. But of course, when the boys came along, and then the baby, the Camaro wasn't cutting it for her and she now desperately wanted a mini-van. We went out and got the nicest one we could afford, and she was in love with it from the start . . . but guess what I drive?
To her credit, she says we're going to work on getting the car I want this summer and getting rid of the Camaro, but so far every time there's a car I want to look at, it's a bad time. I'm not asking for a huge commitment here. I'm talking about a specific brand and model of used car that goes for about $2500; we can afford to pay cash for it. And it's not that she's against it, or she's saying "no." She just seems to think it doesn't matter one way or the other.

I don't know what to think. She says the introduction to the SSM book made her cry, so maybe it meant something to her. But I've often felt, maybe unfairly, that she cries when I bring up sex partly because it shuts me down. Sometimes I just push through and continue the conversation, but oftentimes I just can't.

Hi Silly Old Bear,

Love your name, love the thread title. $\:\)$

Something jumped out at me from your last post--do you know why the introduction to SSM made her cry? Or, why does she cry when you bring up sex?

Everything that implies any dissatisfaction with our sex life makes her cry. That's what makes it so maddening to talk to her about it. She usually doesn't discuss it in terms of what we can do. She either doesn't want to talk, or she cries about what a bad person and a bad wife she is. There's no middle ground. Before, I would cut off the conversation when the tears started. In the last couple of years, I've just steeled myself and kept talking. It ends on a hopeful note, but nothing really changes. As nearly as I can tell, she cries because she thinks I'm calling her a bad person when I bring up sex. Also, her parents had a messy, hateful divorce and she's terrified I'm going to leave her. That's part of the reason I'm so emphatic about never leaving. My parents have a very loving marriage. It's not perfect--picture Hank Hill, with Hank's dad living in the same small town--but they love each other and as far as I know never considered separating. I want to have that too, and I feel like I'm about 90% there. But I still don't want to live like roommates. It's not that I want to be passionately in love. I AM passionately in love.

I tried to talk to her about why the SSM intro made her cry, but she was already shutting down and it was, after all, 4:00 in the morning. And I'm supposed to be doing a 180 and not pestering her to discuss it, of course. So I just said, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have tried to do this at 4 in the morning, let's get sleep." It's really not fair for me to pester her to read relationship stuff; she's dyslexic, and although she reads well, when she gets tired the words start moving around on her. Reading all about something is my approach, not hers. But she doesn't seem to have an approach to this, other than "I'll try harder." I know she tries, but it's not working.

More random bitching and moaning:

One thing that really drives me around the bend is the way I have to be all things to her. Very often, once sex is somehow initiated, she wants me to be this rough, dominating guy--as if she's being taken roughly in the barn, I guess. That's OK with me, except that I can't slip in and out of "character" in an instant the way she demands. Everything I ask is denied, rejection all the way for weeks at a time, then when she decides she's ready, suddenly I'm supposed to take charge and be forceful--but the instant it's too forceful, you can feel the temperature in the room drop. And if it's not forceful enough, you can feel the apathy. But how in the world can you spend ten years beating a man's spirit down and emphasizing that he has no control over his sex life and you hold all the cards--and then expect him to pretend to be in charge? We both know I'm not in charge. Ever. We both know there's nothing forceful or demanding in me acting demanding, because she can and will shut me down whenever she wants.

Oh, and I might as well tell on myself while I'm telling on her. I hate some of the things I've said. We once had an argument, and I brought up the past (dumb in itself, I know.) Specifically, I brought up our wedding night, when she was "too tired" for sex. On our wedding night. Pretty bad, right?
Only she informed me that I was remembering something that never happened--that she talked about being too tired at first, but then "gave in to make you happy, and now you don't even remember it." I don't know what to think. I don't think she'd lie about this, and I know what I remember, so one of us is remembering things that didn't happen. Am I so angry that I remember her doing things that didn't really happen? I don't know.

I bring this up because I found that coupon book today. That made me remember that I was sure I'd thrown it away. Maybe I did, and she rescued it . . . . or maybe I changed my mind, but I remembered it the way that seemed to fit the way I feel now. The coupon book is a minor thing--it doesn't really matter whether I trashed it or not--but imagine being accused of rejecting your husband on your wedding night if it hadn't happened? I know I'm not the only one getting hurt.

Hi Silly Ol'Bear,

From what I've read so far, I really doubt if your wife's crying is manipulative, it sounds more like "flooding" to me. I think the issue with sex may boil down to her self-esteem:

Quote:

She either doesn't want to talk, or she cries about what a bad person and a bad wife she is... As nearly as I can tell, she cries because she thinks I'm calling her a bad person when I bring up sex. Also, her parents had a messy, hateful divorce and she's terrified I'm going to leave her.

You also mentioned that she thinks she's overweight (although you think she's beautiful) and struggles with depression. Did you guys already look at her her depression meds as a contributing factor? Cause those can dampen libido.

What jumps out to me is that you're wife needs to work on her happy. You see her as being in control and manipulating you, but it just might be that people with low self-esteem can be completely self-involved. I don't see that she feels in control of the situation, in fact, she wants you to be in control. Unconsciously, she may be trying to set the stage to recreate the abandonment baseline she grew up with, but that's obviously not what she wants. She just doesn't know how to get there.

You're right--actually seeing a therapist instead of a GP (?!?) for her depression would be an excellent start. :head-desk:

Greetings Bear,

You wrote:

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Very often, once sex is somehow initiated, she wants me to be this rough, dominating guy--as if she's being taken roughly in the barn, I guess. That's OK with me, except that I can't slip in and out of "character" in an instant the way she demands. Everything I ask is denied, rejection all the way for weeks at a time, then when she decides she's ready, suddenly I'm supposed to take charge and be forceful--but the instant it's too forceful, you can feel the temperature in the room drop. And if it's not forceful enough, you can feel the apathy. But how in the world can you spend ten years beating a man's spirit down and emphasizing that he has no control over his sex life and you hold all the cards--and then expect him to pretend to be in charge? We both know I'm not in charge. Ever. We both know there's nothing forceful or demanding in me acting demanding, because she can and will shut me down whenever she wants.

This paragraph struck a chord with me, as I am in the process of working through a similar situation myself. If you're interested, take a look at my latest thread and the relevant discussion that followed. Your wife's fantasies/desires are not that unusual: there are many strong, dominant women by day who dream of being 'ravished' and submitting to a stronger, more dominant man by night --> it's the stuff that romance novels are full of. And with love, trust, and good communication these desires are something you can both take advantage of in your marital relationship.

I fully understand how you feel when you say that it's nearly impossible to take charge and be dominant inside of the bedroom when you feel nothing of the sort where your sex life is concerned. I was in the same boat not long ago, and felt like my wife was the one in true control and the 'gate-keeper' of our sex life. The truth was, my wife utterly HATED being the one in charge of it. It turned her OFF. It didn't work for her and made her less inclined to have sex, which caused me to feel even more rejected and less inclined to initiate, especially in a seductive, take-charge fashion. The more timid or indecisive I became, the less interested she became, and around and around we went.

Like you, I am no actor and don't role-play well. Neither is my wife turned on by acting or role-playing. So for us, it was important for me to 'man up' both inside and outside of the bedroom in order for the situation to change for the better. No, this doesn't mean becoming a domineering tyrant or bullying jerk. In fact, my wife feels more cared for, respected, and cherished now than when we began this process: I adore her and thoroughly enjoy treating her like the queen that she is to me. It's primarily been about improving my self-esteem, being more assertive and confident, and taking responsibility for those aspects of the family/relationship that my wife would rather place in my hands (i.e. with her consent and approval) --> sex-life included. One could say the process has been one of enhancing our respective masculine and feminine roles in the relationship, which tends to turn us both on to each other. Along the way, however, there has to be a lot of love, trust, and good communication for it to work for both of you.

An important final thought: The topic of dominance & submission, both inside and especially outside of the bedroom is a very, very touchy one, and for good reason: abuse must be a constant concern and avoided without exception. Also, what works for one couple does not work for another -- so take my input with a grain of salt. I spotted a potential commonality, and have described how it relates to what works for myself and my wife. Take that input as you deem fit.

Best wishes to you,

Bagheera

Quote:

The topic of dominance & submission, both inside and especially outside of the bedroom is a very, very touchy one, and for good reason: abuse must be a constant concern and avoided without exception.

Well, yeah, and I may err on the side of caution. I don't know. There's no bright line, and I admit, I've always had a fear of being seen as a bully. I'm a very big guy, and I've always enjoyed rough combat sports, but that's what I like about them. Everyone who steps on a mat or into a ring knows what's up. Everyone knows the rules and the limits. The other guy may choke you, or crank an armbar, but that's OK, because that's the game. There's no bullying or actual malice going on, at least at my level. Everyone understands your actions clearly in context.
I want to be that "gentle giant" not the big bully.

When it comes to men dominating women or vice versa, the lines and limits won't hold still long enough for me to learn the rules. I enjoy ravishing my wife as much as the next guy, but I'm terrified that I'm going to cross a line and make things worse. And it's obvious that she's trying to lead me to her fantasy, but she just keeps asking about mine. I want to say, "Look, I told you about my fantasies. If you want to act out your fantasy, tell me what it is. I won't say no." She just puts it back on me.

Anyway, thank you both. It's after ten and I just got home from obedience school. I've got Bagheera's thread open in another window for the morning, but I'm going to go upstairs and see if she's awake.

I told her before I left that I wanted to finish our conversation about the SSM book, but she should just tell me when she's ready. Michele says in the book that this takes pressure off her, so we'll see if that helps. The last time I did something no-pressure like that, though, it ended in her doing nothing and refusing to read the piece I'd printed out.
(It was Julia Grey's Salon blog about her low-desire problems and fixing her marriage.

Journaling/ranting:

Driving home last night, a song lyric came out of nowhere and got stuck in my head. I'm going to type it in and then maybe it will stop playing over and over in my head.

"I may lack social graces. . .
But I won't swallow my pride.
There are millions of places. . .
I could be,
But I'm here by your side . . ."

I don't know who wrote it, but it's a song called "I'll Be There For You" on a Willie Nelson album called The Great Divide. I think it sums up my frustration pretty well.
I've told her before, I'm not trying to brag, but I feel like I'm a pretty good guy, and I didn't have to commit myself to her. I just wanted to, and I thought she was doing it with a full heart, too. Now we tell each other that no matter what happens with sex, we won't doubt that we love each other, but that's hard to do when I touch her and she sighs out "Do you HAVE to do that?"

Well, since you ask, no. I don't HAVE to do it. I don't HAVE to be here with you at all. I WANT to "do that" for the same reason I WANT to be here with you in the first place. Call me crazy, but I love you. What's your excuse?

[quote=SillyOldBear]

Quote:

When it comes to men dominating women or vice versa, the lines and limits won't hold still long enough for me to learn the rules. I enjoy ravishing my wife as much as the next guy, but I'm terrified that I'm going to cross a line and make things worse. And it's obvious that she's trying to lead me to her fantasy, but she just keeps asking about mine. I want to say, "Look, I told you about my fantasies. If you want to act out your fantasy, tell me what it is. I won't say no." She just puts it back on me.

Here again is a similarity in our situations, but do keep in mind that I don't really know you, your wife, or the details of your relationship. So please take my comments here as just that: my $0.02 only, which may not be really applicable to you.

If your wife is a typical sexual submissive -- dominant school teacher by day, but wanting YOU to take the reins by night -- then she will be very, very reluctant to talk about what she wants sexually. She may not be able to because doing so, in essence, ruins it for her, and generates the guilt that she's trying to unconsciously avoid.

There are multiple reasons why this may be the case (go read Michael J. Bader's book on Arrousal for the full story), but *one* of the more common scenarios is the fact that our western culture is very good at linking guilt and shame with sex, especially for women. They get hammered with the message that Nice Girls don't desire sex, Nice Girls don't enjoy sex, Nice Girls guard their 'virtue' and if they don't they're a slut/whore. Sure, the caveat is always added "until you're married," but by then, the guilt/shame is ingrained. One way of unconsciously getting around that guilt is the common fantasy of being 'taken' or 'ravished' by a more dominant male. The situation then becomes: Nice Girls don't, "but he made me do it" or "I couldn't resist him". Note that this is NOT a conscious decision --> most people don't know why their sexual fantasies work for them, they just know that "this is what turns me on."

So what's a guy to do? Be patient and loving and earn her trust, to begin with. At some point, she'll need to clue you in somehow as to what direction she wants you to go in, even if she can't tell you directly. You already know a LOT about what she's wanting: my wife spent years keeping things to herself in that regard, until I put forth the effort to rebuild our marriage and gain her trust again. If your wife wants you to be more dominant and 'rough,' as you've already indicated, then you need to have a serious talk about setting up some guidelines for maintaining BOTH her safety and yours. Establish a safe word, some short word completely unrelated to anything in the bedroom, that she can use to stop the action if needed. Establish a firm bond of trust between you: she is trusting YOU to stay in total control at all times, monitor her physical safety, and *halt* if the safe word is ever uttered; you are trusting HER to monitor herself and her own enjoyment level, and if any limits or personal boundaries are even approached, she should let you know immediately. Establish some clear guidelines with regard to what is OFF LIMITS -- she may not be willing to say what she wants you to do, but she ought to be able to say what she absolutely *does not* want done. Finally, be patient, go slowly, be willing to forgive yourselves if things go wrong, be willing to laugh at yourselves when things get goofy (and the will...), be loving and communicate often. ALL of the above requires a special bond of trust between husband and wife that is hard for me to put into words.

Based on your posts, I don't think that this is the 'magic bullet' to solving your sex-starved marriage. As you've already indicated there are plenty of other contributing factors: the house, the bedroom, work exhaustion, body image, etc. I also don't think that your wife truly understands the vital connection between physical intimacy and emotional intimacy for a man (the Marriage Catch-22 mentioned in the SSM book). For her, sex is probably still just 'icing on the cake:' something nice, in addition to having an emotional connection with you, but optional. So a big part of her 'education' will be learning how extremely important maintaining a physical connection is to YOU.

Hopefully, the above will perhaps give you one more piece you can fit into the puzzle, however.

Take care,

Bagheera

Silly,

I feel your pain on a lot of fronts. First, my wife really was too tired on our wedding night and I see now that this set a bad tone for our relationship right away. Looking back, I see a bunch of times in our dating and early days of marriage where I should have drawn a line in the sand, but instead was too much a of nice guy. Speaking of nice guy, make sure you add "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to your reading list. I found it was spot on for me and I spot a lot of me in you, as you describe yourself.

A few other thoughts, in no particular order:
1. Glad you are staying in your bed. I understand the other opinion, but agree with yours.
2. Spend your next two weeks of your sexual sabbatical to hone in on and get working on a plan for yourself. I like what you are doing and planning on doing with your bedroom. Get it done pronto, even though she may resist because she may see the piles of clothes and clutter as comforting to her current state of being.
3. If you could lose 100 pounds once, you could do it again and should. Do it for you, but as a side benefit, your wife likely wants to lose weight as well and you will lead by example (and I have found, the meals cooked, food in the fridge, etc. tends to be more healthy if one person is trying to lose weight). Don't make a big thing of it, just use your time off to start exercising some and watch what you eat. In the end, will she suddenly find you ravishing and jump your bones nonstop? Probably not, but you will feel better and if she loses weight on her own, so will she. Also, in the event she is not as attracted to the heavier version of you as you are to the heavier version of her, you will be more attractive to her.
4. My last suggestion is a tough one. I found your postings to be touching and beutifully reflective of the frustration a HDH feels. I don't think it would be possible to say them in a discussion (particularly when your wife is crying or as is the case for me, being angrily defensive and in denial) any better. I would recommend you sit down to talk to her and tell her you came here for help and this is what you are feeling, and show her your thread. It might be a shock to her to read it as I would guess that you have never said things in as unvarnished a way as you did here, but I suspect it would be a healthy shock. I think this type of a jolt is what others were suggesting with moving to a different bed.

Anyway, I wish you the best and as I said, feel your pain.

CB

Tonight will be interesting. I've been cleaning out the bedroom, so it's in some disarray, but much less cluttered. Today is our wedding anniversary, and my wife usually feels some pressure to have what I think of as "special occasion sex." I try not to make it seem like I expect sex at these times, and sometimes it doesn't happen, but she has so many ideas of the way sex "should be" that I wouldn't be surprised if she decided we had to have sex tonight simply because it's our anniversary. I'm not going to initiate; we'll see what happens. "Special occasion sex" irritates me, which is irrational. It IS a special day, and I DO want to have sex with my wife, so it doesn't make any sense to sulk. But it feels like I'm lucking into it without actually being attractive enough for her to want to do it. If we'd gotten married on a different day, I'd be out of luck tonight. It's not a ringing endorsement.

Charlie, I think I've said most of this to her at one time or another, actually. I've been pretty open about what I think for the last couple of years. Certainly never all at once like this, though. I'll show her this, but she says she's going to read SSM, so I want to wait until she does that. If, at some point, I decide she's never going to read the book, then I might show her this thread. What could it hurt?

I know I should lose the weight, but it's hard to make it happen. And part of me says, hey, I don't demand that from her, why can she demand it from me? But I know that's not right. We're not the same person. Last time, I really did lose the weight for me. But back then, I was able to spend a lot of time on my bike, in jiu-jitsu class, and in the weightroom. That was before the baby. I've begun eating better, but I don't get the exercise I should and I know it. She said the other day that she wanted to walk in the early mornings, and I told her I would go with her. She wanted to know who would stay with the baby, and I told her I would get him dressed and we could put him in the stroller.
Silence ensued. I don't know; maybe she wanted to walk alone and I intruded.

Quote:

Based on your posts, I don't think that this is the 'magic bullet' to solving your sex-starved marriage. As you've already indicated there are plenty of other contributing factors: the house, the bedroom, work exhaustion, body image, etc. I also don't think that your wife truly understands the vital connection between physical intimacy and emotional intimacy for a man (the Marriage Catch-22 mentioned in the SSM book).

I agree. I've actually said almost the words from the SSM book to her on more than one occasion, but I don't think it has sunk in. And I also agree that there's more than one problem here. It's a tangled mess.
Anyway, I have said to her, more or less verbatim, "I feel like I'm stuck in an impossible situation. When we got married, I swore that I'd never have sex with any other woman, and I still don't want to, but now I can't have sex with you either. So the only options for me are 3 billion women I swore I'd never touch, or one woman who won't let me touch her."
I don't think it made a dent.

Now a question for Low-Desire people--women or men--when your HD spouse told you about the Catch-22 for the first time, did it basically sound like s/he thought you engaged in some grand conspiracy to deny them sex? It feels like I'm being a whiny, self-centered punk here. But it's amazing to find a group of people who seem to think it's OK that I'm complaining about the pain in my marriage . . . even listening. And giving feedback. I just never get to do this.
Thank you all.

Actually Bear,

I was referring to the Intimacy Dilemma discussed on pages 55-62 of The Sex-Starved Marriage, which Michele labels "The Catch 22" further down the page. THIS section describes one of the single most important ideas that your wife needs to understand about you, her husband: it is the key necessary for her to understand what you have been feeling and going through, and if she loves you, it will give her the additional motivation needed to help fix the problem between you. Here is my (well worn) take on it:

The Marriage Catch-22: Women, in general, require an emotional connection before they feel the desire for a physical connection. That is, for a woman, emotional intimacy is the pathway to physical intimacy. On the other hand, Men, in general, require a physical connection before they feel the desire for an emotional connection. That is, for a man, physical intimacy is the pathway to emotional intimacy.

This highly reciprocal relationship between husband and wife is wonderful when it works, but is also extremely delicate. Because intimacy (in either form) is often the first thing to go when there is trouble in a marriage, it is all too easy to break this cycle, such that neither partner gets what they need to feel intimate and close to each other.

To husbands, it often seems like their wives spell intimacy T-A-L-K, and completely miss the importance of meeting this vital need if they want their wives to connect with them physically. Men need to understand that their wives will be there for them physically if they follow the correct pathway. Emotional closeness and intimacy are the primary means by which your wife expresses her love for you and feels loved herself: meet that need and she will give you the physical closeness that you desire.

To wives, it often seems like their husbands spell intimacy S-E-X, and completely miss the importance of meeting this vital need if they want their husbands to connect with them emotionally. Women need to understand that their husbands will be there for them emotionally if they follow the correct pathway. Physical closeness and intimacy are the primary means by which your husband expresses his love for you and feels loved himself: meet that need and he will give you the emotional closeness that you desire.

It is particularly easy for Women to assume that Men are just being shallow and animalistic in this need, and there are certainly plenty of young men out there, who haven't yet realized their own emotional depth, to support this misconception. However, for the mature man, the man who is in love with his wife, the connection between physical and emotional intimacy is the key to his ability to feel his love for you and your love for him. This male 'reverse-wiring' may seem alien to Women, since they generally need to feel their love first, with physical intimacy as a nice 'icing on the cake' to follow, but the wife who truly understands her husband's pathway will be able to go a long way toward ensuring that they both get the love and intimacy that they desire.

This is the point that you want to get across to her, more than anything else in that book -- in my opinion. It certainly made a HUGE impact on my own recovering marriage: Kudos to Michele again.

Best regards,

Bagheera

I see. I don't know. I would have said that outside of sex, we were very emotionally intimate. We do talk, we do laugh, we do tell each other "I love you."

After reading the book, I realize a LD spouse can really believe that they have pretty good sexual intimacy, even while their HD spouse is thinking and actually telling them over and over that they're in a sex-starved marriage. So it's hard to trust my perception of emotional intimacy. I'll be sure and emphasize that section; maybe we can read it together. I don't have a lot of faith that it will mean anything to her. I've said that to her so many times . . . . so many ways . . . . orally, in writing, it doesn't seem to matter. She doesn't believe me.

I do know I'm irritable and easily angered nowadays. I've been working on it, but it still shows sometimes. Maybe my wife would say it's worse than that. One more thing to try to fix.

Another thing I want to journal about a little here: Friends and family. Specifically, I don't share these problems with my friends or family. I'm embarassed, and being rejected all the time is humiliating enough without having my friends or my family know about it. My wife does discuss things with one of her best friends, and like so much of this, with completely counter-intuitive results. Her friend works with her at the school and is a little younger than my parents--old enough to be my wife's mother, certainly. But they get along great, and I like her and her husband, though I don't see him much. My wife told her friend about our problems. Her friend's advice was to try to find a way to enjoy sex, because as she gets older, her sex drive will increase and mine will fade away. Hope that's not the case! It turns out that she's dealing with a SSM herself, only she's the HD one and her husband is LD. Since that time, she's always advised my wife to do something about this problem, but whether she's overwhelmed, apathetic, or depressed, she doesn't seem interested in solving anything.
(PS--Remember the flowers from the roadside? Same friends.)

SillyOldBear,

The title of your thread says it all - you have an impoverished way of thinking about sex and ultimately yourself.

I know exactly where you're coming from, having myself done and felt many of the things you've described.

But you have to change your way of thinking about life itself, not just sex. I'm going to give you a few quick pointers.

"But for me, this is like a kid on Christmas morning with all the presents opened; it was great, but I know it's going to be a long time before it happens again, and I'm going to be rejected many times between now and then."

This is not just a metaphor, is it? You really need to stop thinking of yourself as kid and sex as a reward for being "good" - that almost inevitably affects your vibes and your actions. You are not a kid and your wife is not your mother. Its not an attractive sexual dynamic. Think about it.

"I feel hurt by her rejection, and I know I'm angry and irritable."

Been there, done that. It doesn't work. You need to cultivate an inner masculine strength, sense of purpose, and calm. That's what women find desirable, not being "pestered".

"My (irrational?) fear is that she'll decide she likes the new asexual eunuch/husband version of me and I'll be an even bigger disappointment to her if I decide not to be this sexless guy anymore."

A combination of fear and a desperate need for her approval. Not masculine, not attractive and not sexy.

"We've both gained a LOT of weight since we met. Stressful jobs, kids--all the excuses. I find her irresistible."

Why? I mean no disrespect to your wife, but why? Have a good think about that one.

"She finds me resistible. I lost over 100 pounds two years ago, but it made no lasting difference in our sex life and I gained it back."

So you only do things - even very important and positive things that you should be doing for yourself anyway - because you think you'll be rewarded with sex from her - is that the kind of man you wanted to be? If it isn't, then you need to start thinking about the kind of man you want to be - entirely distinct from your wife's perceived approval, desire for you or indeed anyone else's opinion of you. Cut yourself free from the tangle of constantly thinking about what she thinks of you - sexually, it gets you nowhere (as you must already realise), it holds you down from fulfilling your life's potential, and it also crowds out the psychic space between you and your wife, the spiritual garden as it were, in which a healthy kind of sexual attraction would grow.

"Our house is a wreck. We bought a 100-year-old money pit thinking we'd take our time and restore it--and then we took on the twins, and we were just trying to survive."

Your (and her) choice. Be responsible for your choices (or the fact that you let her choose). There is no golden rule written anywhere that says your life has to be (i) easy, (ii) full of sex, or even (iii) at least fair. You do however have complete freedom of choice in how you emotionally and physically respond to life - but you have clearly relinquished that power.

"Recently I completed a nursery for the baby and two new bathrooms are coming, but our bedroom is a disaster and constantly cluttered. I know that's not romantic, but I don't know what she wants me to do about it when she has four other rooms plus the outdoors she wants me to handle first. When I finished the nursery, framed, wired, insulated, glazed, drywalled, paneled, doored, floored, trimmed and painted by myself, her comment was "I didn't think you'd be able to do it."

You could take an Executive Decision to at least tidy the bedroom next. That would spell out to her that (i) certain things are important to you, and that (ii) you act accordingly. There's no need to do this in a chauvinist way - just "Honey, I think you and I need some calm and private space amidst all that we have going on here." A separate point is that you have a wife that appears to fundamentally disrespect you and is profoundly ungrateful - and that's ignoring the lack of sex altogether.

"She's struggled with depression. She won't see a therapist, but whenever sex comes up, depression comes out. She has medication from her general practitioner, which I find wacky. I wish she'd see a doctor who specializes in the brain if she thinks there's a problem in the brain."

This may or may not be the case. It may be a deliberate excuse, or it may be the best way she can rationalise what is "wrong" with her. Guess what - its not your job to fix her or "make" her happy. That's her job. So stop trying to fix her and focus on rebuilding yourself mentally and physically.

"The best example I can think of is the year she gave me one of those silly "I Owe You" sex coupon books you get in gag stores for Christmas. I guess she thought it was a funny joke to give her sex-starved husband a book of promises about sex, but I took her seriously. At that time we hadn't had sex for about six months. I brought it to her, and the first thing she did was go through the book--which she hadn't read before giving it to me--and tell me which pages she wasn't going to do . . . sex in the backyard, a couple of others.
Well, OK, not much in the spirit, but fair enough, especially since our backyard fence is chain link. Over the next two years, I brought that book to her dozens of times. I tried to use the coupons for sex, for a shower together, for a backrub . . . . eventually, out of sheer desperation, I tried every one.

In the end I burned the damn thing. I don't really know why she gave it to me. She couldn't bring herself to honor one single coupon out of that stupid gag gift. I don't know whether she intended to honor it when she gave it to me, but I can't fathom why she would:

1. Give me such a gift, knowing how depressed I already was by her constant rejection, if she was going to treat it as a joke, or
2. Give me such a gift, intending to let me use it to spark sex between us, and then be so disgusted by me that she couldn't even bring herself to give me a backrub."

Apart from pointing out that "sheer desperation" is pointless (and on a spiritual level quite unnecessary) I don't really know what to think of this at this stage. It raises some interesting possibilities as to what your wife wants or expects with regard to sex.

"I have never cheated and will never cheat. I don't want a divorce. I don't want another woman. I want to make love to my wife. I love her and I promised her my whole life, and I will give it to her.
That said, it kills me that she's set this Catch-22 trap for me. I can't have sex with any other woman because I loved her so much that I was eager to stand up and forswear all other women forever."

Start taking control of your own thoughts and your power. Show me any man that mentally has resigned himself to his marriage for ever and ever and ever...no matter what his wife says or does, and I will show you a man that thinks and acts as if he doesn't deserve a good marriage and a good sex-life, and that is constantly trying to "please" his wife while simmering inwardly with resentment and anger. Oh, and I will also show you his wife, who senses he is weak, will put up with just about anything, and treats him as a doormat. Forget the fairy-tales - this is real life. I am not advocating divorce, but what I am saying is that this whole self-denying "I will never divorce you" vibe is fearful, weak and therefore unattractive. The day my own life started its long process of turning around was the day I started seriously contemplating life after divorce - the kind of man that I would need and want to be. Well...that day I started attempting to be that man, and despite fallbacks and pits, kept at it (and continue doing so) and my marriage has definitely improved as a result. You must change your mindset. You are no-one's prisoner. This marriage is your choice, not your prison. You can leave if you choose, if your wife continues to disrespect and ignore your feelings, and you will at some point have to make that clear.

"I get to be the good father to our kids, and I get to be the good handyman who restores her dream house for her, and I get to drive the junk car so she can drive the car she wants. These are all things I WANT to do, but I can't help but notice that it seems like it only matters that I want to do them because she wants me to do them too. I never wanted to be her roommate."

If you don't mind me saying so, that was quite a rant. You must be honest with yourself. Do things because (i) you objectively should, (ii) you truly want to irrespective of reward, with (iii) a polite but firm "No" to the rest. Reading between the lines, there is much more to your marriage than a lack of sex: you have become enmeshed in a constant year-after-year succession of doing things and sacrificing things all to please her, in a vain struggle for her "approval" i.e. sex. Read no more mr nice guy by dr robert glover and then the way of the superior man by david deida. If you want to make any real and lasting progress at all, you will have to "reset" your whole perspective on life, women and sex. You do not, as you have so far programmed yourself, "need" sex to function as a man. Nor is there any entitlement to sex as such, but there are essential differences between men and women - how they interact verbally, emotionally, physically, what they perceive as attractive in each other - that can be learned and tapped into.

I suggest you also read my lengthy posts to Tyguy, Tired Of Pain, and Near The End and put together your own plan of what you want to do. I would be happy to help further when I have time.

If you've had the initiative to come here, you already have within you what it takes to sort all this out.

Be grateful for the opportunity of exciting changes that you've been given by this situation.

All the best,

SA

SillyOldBear,

I've just noticed this in your thread as well:

"I think I'm a pretty good husband overall. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't gamble. I don't stay out late. I have a forge in the toolshed that hasn't seen a fire for three years now because I don't have time to do any metalwork anymore. I have fishing poles, but I don't go fishing. At most I take the family and bait hooks for the kids. I love to go shooting, and I haven't given up my gun club membership, but I haven't been shooting since November. I loved jiu-jitsu, but the classes were held an hour away on weekday evenings, and I just couldn't justify the time away from the family."

Two further points occur to me:

(i) At the risk of using a metaphor myself, you are letting your fire of inner masculinity die right down and this has definitely affected your marriage. You need to start doing at least one of these things for yourself again...now. Pick one and reshuffle things to make time to do it. Stop making excuses - the alternative is that you and your marriage will continue to spiral downwards, and everyone will eventually suffer. Read what david deida has to say about the importance of a man's purpose to his own self and to the sexual dynamic, and then have another look back at what you've written.

(ii) As someone who used to do combat sports, you should have a head start in cultivating a new way of thinking about yourself and your "needs". I may be generalising vastly here, but when it comes to sex, women tend to prefer steeliness and assertiveness (so long as it flows from genuine love, rather than disrespect, weakness or neediness) rather than cuddliness. I can see that Bagheera has said some very enlightening things about this.

S&A

S&A,

Great, wise stuff. Bless you for taking time to reach out to these folks. I don't know about Bear, but that helped ME! Thanks!

Puppy

SA, I read all that. I'll probably wait and read it again before I make a longer reply. All I can say now is that I always wanted a good marriage and a happy family. I wanted to make my wife happy. I still do. I really thought I was just doing what it took to make that happen for us. I thought of it as strength, not weakness--the strength to give up what I wanted for the good of the family.

I still don't want to think about divorce. But you're right; if I'm here no matter what, no matter how miserable we both get, then the marriage doesn't mean much.

I have to get up and go in a few minutes, but maybe I'll have more to say this afternoon. Thank you for giving me so much to think about.

PDT,

I'm glad to hear it helps. The ideas I write here are now a major part of my life philosophy, and I try to live them day by day, no matter what. I'm not perfect, and its not always easy, but they do work in the sense that I and my marriage definitely did improve.

I will never go back to who I was a couple of years back, and I am only too happy to pass on what I have learned.

All the best to you,

S&A

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Bear,

As a notorious "Nice Guy" myself, I can tell you that I do NOT have all the answers, and I struggle with this too. But I can tell you without reservation that women are, by and large, NOT attracted to this:

Quote:

I wanted to make my wife happy.

Ladies, you can chime in, but what a woman THINKS she wants (and may even actively work to get), and what will ULTIMATELY MAKE HER HAPPY, are very often two different things. In any given situation, a woman will SAY she wants -- and may even TRULY want -- to get her way, but over time?? In situation after situation? She will LOSE RESPECT for you if you constantly give in to her, and will, in fact, find that quality NOT attractive.

A woman desires a man who LEADS, lovingly. Not who SUPPLICATES.

Puppy

had to chime in here... Puppy is right. Sometimes we don't know what the heck we want, but being a "puppy" (no pun intended $\:\)$ )
for her and letting her do whatever is not the way to go.

Im not saying you have to be mean, but for me I was more attracted to someone that was a challenge, more so then someone who catered to me. I know, we are strange creatures but unfortunately that's the way a lot of women are. I man that can't express his opinions or stand his ground on something he believes in, ISNT attractive.

I haven't read your entire stitch, but the heading caught my eye.

One thing I wanted to comment on thou you can still make her feel desirable without letting your guard down. This was major for me and my H. He started commenting on my looks, appearance and so on, and that made it better for me to become more "interested"

Just my .02

SillyOldBear,

Take all the time you need and please do the homework I suggested :).

My own view on love is that true love is the action of strong individuals. Strong people love themselves, are ultimately sufficient within themselves, and are therefore able to give to others - time, attention, gifts, even raw emotion - without expectation. In other words they are already "full/filled" and what they give is the excess.

As you start to work your way through all of this, you will realise that giving up things you want is only strong when you are truly happy to do so i.e. without attaching a hidden meaning or price.

But your resentment is now loudly telling you that you were not truly happy to give up these things. Resentment is another toxic weed - one that will eventually overrun your entire marital garden.

So just get rid of your resentment. Mentally cut it all away, and resolve to cut it away again the instant it grows back - and it will because its seeds are the past. Don't blame your wife for the past. Don't even blame yourself - you didn't know any better.

But if there are things you want to do with your life, you definitely should do them, even (or especially) if it requires some discipline and organisation on your part. Oh, and start spending time with your buddies again, maybe a few hours a week.

A man fulfilling his own purpose and conquering the current challenges in his life without leaning on others or the past, is a strong and fulfilled man. He brings home to his wife a very special kind of energy, which the majority of women appreciate and want, even if only on a subconscious level. That is the root of female sexual desire. The more you crank up your own mental and physical male energy (which must be completely independent of anything your wife says or does), the better a chance you have of her making the necessary effort to have a sexual relationship.

Let us know how you get on.

S&A

We talked tonight. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't the end of the world. I tried not to sound angry. I didn't always succeed.

I told her the truth I've been afraid to tell myself: we're headed toward divorce sooner or later unless we fix our marriage. I told her I never want to be divorced from her, but if I can't be her husband, we won't stay married no matter how much that tears me up.

Thanks for everything. More to come tomorrow.

This is the same thing I posted in another thread, here, that started as a request for advice on whether I should talk to my wife last night or not, but quickly spun out of control. I'm going to try to close that one off as best I can and keep this discussion here.

Well, we've made what I thought were hopeful starts before, but I feel good.

In no particular order, I told her:

I'm very angry.
I never want to lose her, but I won't accept being miserable and one of us would inevitably get fed up someday, which means divorce.
Right now we're going toward divorce, not away from it.
Our sex life already sucks and our marriage is headed in the wrong direction.
I feel taken for granted. She thinks I'll accept any level of misery just to live in the same house as her. This partly my fault for telling her in word and deed that I would accept any level of misery just to . . . well, you know.

She told me:

She feels taken for granted. Nobody cleans up; everyone expects her to do it.
When it comes to my "morals and the things you believe in" I'm not a pushover, but when it comes to her, I am.
She was surprised to hear me ask about being a doormat, because she thought I'd been a lot more assertive lately, making decisions that needed to be made without consulting her. Looking back on the last month or so, she's right, but I hadn't thought consciously about "being more assertive" or "being a man." I just decided things weren't going to get done if I had to fret and worry about what she would say about the way I did them, so I decided to do them anyway.
She brought up her parents again. This is a common theme. It's true; her mother has a good heart, but she's a domineering woman who rules with an iron fist. Ironically, I have no trouble standing up to her, but then, she's never really approved of me and it's easier for me to stand up to my enemies than my friends. But my wife's father is an alcoholic and a mouse of a man, (but now sober for years, active in AA, and married again, happily, I think) and her current husband is as loud as she is, but certainly not in charge of anything. I always thought of my wife as submissive to her mother and glad to be out from under her thumb, but she says she's afraid she's becoming her mother--a domineering woman with a henpecked husband.

I can see that being henpecked isn't attractive, but more than that, I've always thought of myself as a strong person. I don't intend to be rolled by anyone. I guess I just thought I was showing her respect and making it clear that I trusted her. I was giving her what I wanted from her.

So there's a long way to go, but I feel much better. I made an effort not to do some of the little self-hating things I've made habits of over the years; things I didn't really even notice until they were ingrained habits. For one thing, I bet I say "sorry" 5-10 times a day. I apologize for things I couldn't possibly have done wrong.
"My head is killing me."
"Oh, sorry."
"You don't have to be sorry, you didn't do it."
"Yeah, well,I'm sorry you're hurting, though."
I'm sure the reply in bold was supposed to be my hint that I was driving her up a wall, but I just thought I was going above and beyond, being a good husband, sensitive to her feelings (cuz gurls liek feelings, amirite?) She's said that many times.

So yesterday, I said "Sor--no, I think I'm going to stop saying I'm sorry so much."
"Thank you!"

Finally, I took the big chance for me. Starting small, I kissed her. I didn't want to get too pushy, and I didn't want to get rejected, but I decided that being timid was getting me nowhere. This was before we talked, so I wasn't sure how it would go, but each time I kissed her, she responded. We had several that were pretty warm and a few that were passionate. It's not that we never share a passionate kiss, but I would say we shared more of them yesterday (and this morning before she left) than in the last six months.
The best thing about this morning was the lack of frustration. I wanted a long kiss, so I kissed her. Um . . . "longly." She was just out of the shower, wearing only her thin robe, and she was very tempting, but she was looking at me hopefully--it was almost as if she'd be disappointed if I chose not to kiss her, and I could have chosen not to do it. And she responded. She kissed me back. I touched her face and her neck and she leaned into me. I thought about trying for more, but she was late for work, so I let it end there. Maybe it will lead to more later, maybe not. But I wanted it, and I did it. I'm not frustrated about what I didn't get to do, which is a nice feeling.

Anyway, it's the twins' birthday, so we're having a fun morning here, and I'm sure that helps. Let me know what you think.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

She told me:

When it comes to my "morals and the things you believe in" I'm not a pushover, but when it comes to her, I am.
She brought up her parents again.....her mother has a good heart, but she's a domineering woman who rules with an iron fist. .....But my wife's father is an alcoholic and a mouse of a man......her current husband is as loud as she is, but certainly not in charge of anything..... I always thought of my wife as submissive to her mother and glad to be out from under her thumb, but she says she's afraid she's becoming her mother--a domineering woman with a henpecked husband.

Greetings Bear,

This dovetails very nicely with the things that I talked to you about earlier, particularly with regard to what turns her on sexually. Weak men, like her father, TURN HER OFF. Strong men, ones who will stand up to her and not be dominated by her, are what turn her on. I'll repeat something that I said in my first post to you:

Like you, I am no actor and don't role-play well. Neither is my wife turned on by acting or role-playing. So for us, it was important for me to 'man up' both inside and outside of the bedroom in order for the situation to change for the better. No, this doesn't mean becoming a domineering tyrant or bullying jerk. In fact, my wife feels more cared for, respected, and cherished now than when we began this process: I adore her and thoroughly enjoy treating her like the queen that she is to me. It's primarily been about improving my self-esteem, being more assertive and confident, and taking responsibility for those aspects of the family/relationship that my wife would rather place in my hands (i.e. with her consent and approval) --> sex-life included. One could say the process has been one of enhancing our respective masculine and feminine roles in the relationship, which tends to turn us both on to each other.

You've already started to see some positive results from being more confident and assertive around your wife -- including 'taking' those passionate kisses. Your wife is a strong, feminine woman who needs a stronger masculine man in order to feel loved, romanced, and turned on.

And I have no doubt that you can be that man.

Best regards,

-- B.

I understand strong, that's great. Honestly, though, it's irritating that women have this elaborate testing system. She tries to dominate you, telling you all the while how soft and cuddly and sensitive she wants you to be, and if you don't guess right and push back, you fail her little test. It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over."
Or--and I realize a lot of people are going to say I'm really far over the edge now--what if, since she doesn't want to be in charge or push her husband around, she simply chose not to do it?
Madness?

SOB - don't even get me started about how irritating, confusing, heartbreaking and sometimes horrrible MEN can be when you are trying to figure out what they want and how to navigate their desire and sexual systems....please give some consideration to the OTHER SIDE of the fence and see that men are not just "easy" to figure out and make love to and have fulfilling relationships with. If you haven't tried being with a man yourself (joke) then you will never know this but....it is NEVER easy! Men are slippery, no mattter how solid you think you are.

DanceQueen

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Honestly, though, it's irritating that women have this elaborate testing system. She tries to dominate you, telling you all the while how soft and cuddly and sensitive she wants you to be, and if you don't guess right and push back, you fail her little test. It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over."

Madness?

You're a man. She's a woman. There are simply some things (many things?) that you are just going to have to get over and accept because you'll *never* fully understand them. You've got the wrong glands/hormones/upbringing.

Also, as I've said before, a lot of sexual attraction and arousal is wrapped up in the sub-conscious. It's not a matter of conscious decision, it's a matter of what works for her (and you). Sometimes, what works for you on the sub-conscious level even goes against what you might like on the conscious level. She might consciously really want to be turned on by a sensitive, non-dominant teddy bear...but you've seen how well that works in practice. It doesn't.

Be pragmatic and go with what works and don't over-analyze it (i.e. don't take after Bagheera). Accept the wonderful mystery that is woman, and love her all the more for it.

-- B.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over."

Also, for s naturally strong, dominant person, think about how hard this would be to say to anyone, even your spouse. It goes against your natural grain. You might even be ashamed of this desire and fight against it.

It quite literally took my wife YEARS to finally give me a clue as to what she had been dreaming I would just naturally do on my own. She was almost a little resentful that she had to tell me it out loud -- and even then, she only gave me a hint. I had to take that hint and put the remainder of the puzzle together on my own. For a strong-willed, naturally dominant, feminist woman, it's an extremely difficult desire/dream to admit, even to herself.

But I finally 'got it' and will hopefully never call my marriage sex-starved again.

-- B.

Quote:

I'm supposed to take charge and be forceful--but the instant it's too forceful, you can feel the temperature in the room drop. And if it's not forceful enough, you can feel the apathy. But how in the world can you spend ten years beating a man's spirit down and emphasizing that he has no control over his sex life and you hold all the cards--and then expect him to pretend to be in charge?

This is from an old post.... I am sitting at home and I had some time to read your thread.

Does she really want for you to be forceful or is it she wants to feel your passion..?

I explained this to my Husband in regards to :
Taking me from behind, doggie style whatever you like to call it.
I know you did not refer to a position but it brought this conversation with my own H to mind.

* he said....

~ he didnt like to take me b/c he thught he was hurting me etc etc etc .... I didnt like it too hard or too soft etc etc etc.
Similair to what you are saying.....

* I said....

~ I want you to take me from behind and I want to feel your Passion. I want to feel like you cant get enough of me. Like * I* drive you wild with Passion. I want to feel you grab my hips and take me like I am the hottest thing on this planet and you must have me,,, I want to feel your hands pull my hips towards you so that I know you want to F*KC me and you want me..... Like it is me who turns you on and you arent just horny. It makes me feel special and hot when you do it like that.~

* when my H ahs had a few he will throw caution to the wind and take me like that,,, not too forceful not too soft..... just a lot of passion and like he cant pull my hips back far enough to feel me.. Like I am so hot... and he wants to devour me. Now that gets a woman hot or me at any rate....*

See the difference?

I dunno I dont think it is about acting... it is that silent message that you send. Saying "you " make me so hott, baby , sweetie , honey, like noone else.

Just my 2 cents ~Sb.

God bless...
~Ali

~SB....

I would print out S&A long post to you and get the books he recommends.
The advice he gave you is priceless... absolutely priceless and so on the money it is scary.

I would work on all the changes he said one at a time.
Dont think about working on them work on them.
The change in your R will be amazing and you will be a much happier Man.

And If your lucky the side effect will be ~ your sex life will get better too.
But one thing at a time and I do think working on you is far more important now that I have read thru your thread.

Most people here would give anything to get advice like that and someone telling you like it is.

I myself listened to WISE posters like Strong and Alive and my Life is so much better now. * ( Thanks Santhony, COG, OT, AMYC ,and may others here who blessed me with their time and effort and support)

When you work on you and stop living like you are believe me it will be brilliant. But it starts with you... these awesome people can post til their blue in the face but it ultimately starts with you.
You can do this... so get started. Little by little every day you can reach your Goals.... $;\)$ I promise, but it will take a lot of blood , sweat and tears on your part. Some major growth.
Anything is possible... let this be the last day you stop blaming her and start living.
All my best to you,
~Ali

Well, it's been a couple of days and things are moving faster than I expected. I'm not sure how the next few weeks are going to go. Now that things are changing, I'm finding myself worrying about how to keep everything from snapping right back into place.

First for Alimari:
I know what you mean, but I don't think a lack of passion is the problem. When we make love, it's clear that I'm 100% focused on her. There's nothing distracted or lackluster about it. The only trouble I have in that department--and maybe your "h" did too--is that frankly I have trouble with premature ejaculation, so there are times when I have to slow down or even stop lest the whole thing end right there. I've tried to work on this, but it's hard to learn much or change much having sex once every 1-2 months.
Other than that, my trademark is zeal, passion, and fanatical devotion to the job at hand. Or tongue. Or whatever.

For Dancequeen:

Quote:

please give some consideration to the OTHER SIDE of the fence and see that men are not just "easy" to figure out and make love to and have fulfilling relationships with.

I wouldn't be here if I weren't doing that. Frankly I think I'm trying pretty hard. It may not look that way to you, sitting there reading my floundering and knowing more or less how it turns out in the end, but I've been considering her feelings since I met her. It still sounds like we're talking about pretending to be strong, but only to a point. For instance, I'm supposed to be strong, I'm supposed to be independent, but if I express irritation at someone playing mind games with me, I'm not considering her feelings. That makes no sense to me. If the problem is that I'm acting too much like a weakling, fine. I'm not a weakling and I can make that change. But it defies logic to expect me to be strong and take charge, but do it meekly. I considered her feelings, but that doesn't mean I don't have any.

Now on to the update/journaling:
We went on and had a good day on Thursday. The twins and I had fun in the morning, and when my wife came home she and the baby both took a long nap. The twins picked a restaurant and we went out for dinner, they got presents, and we went to the mall (this is a big deal for them.) I bought the boys comic books, and she let the baby play in the play space. We snuck long kisses in where we could, and she was really enjoying them, so I took a chance at home before we left and told her I wanted to make love that night. She made an excuse, and I shot it down. She told me her period wasn't over. This has always been a dealbreaker for her; she says her period is gross. But I figured I'm being assertive here, and if she gives me a flat no I can always show how strong and nonchalant I am (well, am not, which is almost the same thing, isn't it?) about rejection. I was rubbing her back at the time, so I asked her:
"So, right now, while I'm rubbing your back, does it feel good or are you thinking about your period?"
"Well . . . it feels good."
"And if I kiss your neck like this . . . does that feel good, or do you want me to stop because you have your period?"
"OK, that does feel good. I know."
"All right . . . what if you give sex a shot, and it feels good, too?"
"OK, we'll see. How about a maybe?"

I was overjoyed at maybe. Maybe is better than I've grown to expect. I told her maybe was fine. Actually, I told her maybe was good enough because I was going to put the kids to bed and then bring her to bed, by the hand if necessary. Unfortunately, by the time we got home from the birthday stuff, it was late and the baby was fairly pissed off that his routine had been changed. I caught her eye:
"Honey, I have to tell you something, but if I tell you the truth, you promise you won't get angry?"
"Sigh . . . . what is it?"
"I don't want you to take this personally, but I'm going to have to say 'no' tonight. You're too tired. Let's get some sleep."
"I love you."

I thought that was pretty good. It wasn't going to happen anyway, and better I say so than hang on and force her to take charge and reject me for the thousandth time.

Probably should have kept it in mind for tonight, but I was trying something. But I'm getting ahead of myself. First the triumph of Friday night.

So . . . . Friday.

When my wife came home from work, I was cleaning the bedroom and sorting clothing to be donated, stored, etc. I was also moving excess furniture out to make space. She wanted to lay down for a bit and then pitch in, which we tried to do. The baby was napping and the boys were off playing, so we had a little time to ourselves. We discussed the night before. She told me it had meant a lot to her that I made the decision not to have sex and took it out of her hands. Now, mind you, being in charge of deciding not to have sex is not something I want to become my regular role, but she made me glad I did it.

We discussed a lot of things. We talked more about her parents; I'd been thinking a lot about our wedding. Her mother had insisted that her father couldn't be allowed in the reception line. I knew that was ridiculous, but I told my wife privately that I'd back her up no matter what--and she caved to her mother. I told my wife Friday that what I should have done was tell her mother that nobody was going to use our wedding to screw anybody else, but I was young and dumb and didn't know any better.
"I did the opposite of the right thing, but I thought I was doing what I should. I was trying to show you that I trust you and respect you. I was giving you what I want you to give me."

She told me about how bad she'd felt that day, too. We moved on to talk about us. The kissing was still good. At some point, she said "How about tonight?"

I allowed as how tonight would be good.

My parents were taking the twins for the night, but the catch was that I was on call from 6 p.m. Friday until 6 a.m. Saturday with the volunteer EMS service. I can stay home when I'm on call, but if the pager goes off, I've got to leave right then. I was contemplating whether it would be funny to post something like "My wife is still conspiring to deny me sex--this time she got some guy to fall off his roof so I'd have to go ride the ambulance." I decided this forum would not appreciate the humor. $;\)$

We dropped the boys off with my parents, who offered to take the baby for a couple of hours, too, so we could eat in peace. We went to the store and chose a couple of steaks, which we grilled and ate together, and things were going well. I kissed her neck--from behind, by surprise--and she didn't pull away. She giggled and smiled. I was shocked and trying not to let it show. We picked up the baby, bathed him, and I took him upstairs. I got him all dressed and settled into bed, then went to our room and made the bed. My wife came upstairs in her thin robe (hooray for the thin robe) and I said, somewhat stupidly, "Had your shower, I see."
"Yeah, and I thought you'd be right behind me." Oops.
"I was busy putting the baby to bed and making ours. I'm going to take mine now."

We just about never drink, but she'd picked up a pack of wine coolers at the store and she was sipping at it when I went downstairs to shower. Nothing very exciting happened downstairs, which is not surprising because the hot half-naked woman was not down there.

I came upstairs to find her lying across the bed watching one of her favorite movies in lacy panties and one of the new bras she'd bought the day before (she said she hadn't bought new bras since she'd been pregnant with the baby, and there really is a big difference.) I'll spare you the details from here on, except for a few:

1. She was a lot more enthusiastic than usual and very interested in my pleasure.

2. I really think we both had a VERY good time. She usually swears up and down that she's just had the time of her life when we make love, but in the past it's been hard for me to accept that since she would say it was the best thing ever and then refuse to consider doing it for another month or two. Please don't lecture me; I get it now. I think.

3. I hit the EMS lottery jackpot. I did not get called out during dinner (which is, frankly, beating the odds in itself) and I was not even called out during sex (which has got to be a billion-to-one chance.) I did later wake up to the pager shrilling, and the page went out for an ambulance crew to go to the police department for a female patient complaining of back pain, with the further advise that she was "combative and 10-56" (fancy cop-talk meaning "drunk as a skunk") I rolled over with a groan to check the clock and found that I'd been off duty for 16 minutes and the combative drunk was someone else's problem. It was a glorious night in so many ways.

The next day, Saturday, was today. Today was a great day. I actually did get rejected tonight (I know, two nights in a row is probably pushing things for a guy who used to be relieved to get sex once a month, but what can I say?)
However, it was still a great day and I think I handled the rejection the right way, which takes a surprising amount of sting out of it.

And thus, we find ourselves conducted inexorably toward Saturday.

We woke up with just the baby and no twins; they were off in another city with my parents at an antique show (it sounds bad, but they share the family passion for old junk, so they love it.)

My wife loves garage sales, and today our town had a townwide sale, so we put the baby in the car and took off. We found a few bargains, talked, laughed . . . it was nice. There was also a small car show in town on our little town square, near our home. We went home, put the baby down for a little while, then went back out to walk our own neighborhood with the stroller. Then we walked uptown together, bought our lunch from the Knights of Columbus, and walked around the car show together. Nothing huge, just enjoying what was on offer together. Later we went home and drove into the nearby big town to do a little political work that was important to me--my wife had volunteered the day before to come into town with me, and again, I was a little surprised, but happy to have her join me. We ended up at the mall again (more time than I've spent in that mall in the last year , but it worked out.) We got the baby his first haircut, then I took him to the playzone while my wife got her long hair cut short. I like her hair long, but I figure she doesn't need me to be so dominant that I forbid her to cut her hair, so I told her the truth when she asked how it looked: "You're beautiful."
(I'm not flattering her, she really is. I said I found her irresistible awhile back, and somebody posted that I should think about why that is. Seriously? She's hot.)

Then I took her to our favorite Thai place for dinner. I did not ask where she wanted to go, because that never works. It goes one of two ways:

1. She has no idea, and she punts it back to me: "I don't know. What do you want?" or

2. She says, "I don't know, where do you want to go?"
"OK, how about India House?"
"I don't like that Indian food. I'm allergic to too much of it."
"OK, how about La Cucaracha?"
"No, I had Mexican last week."
"Uh . . . OK . . . so where does that leave?"
Followed by her choosing the restaurant.

So this time, I simply said our favorite Thai place was open and we'd go there. She objected that we might not find anything for the baby to eat there. I replied that we'd stop and get him some chicken nuggets (guaranteed toddler-food) and repeated that I wanted to take her to our place. She relented. We had a great dinner together. We'd been continuing to kiss like lovers all day, and I'd been dropping hints that I'd like more. Now I told her as much--we'd go home, get the boys, put everyone to bed, and then I'd like us to go to bed early. She first told me she'd be too tired. I told her I thought it was no good to decide at 6:00 that you will definitely not be in the mood at 10:00. She countered "How about I say maybe?"

Again, I was actually just going for broke. Maybe sounded fine to me, and I told her that. I've long thought of "maybe" as meaning no, and honestly, I still think it usually did during our marriage so far, but I'm trying to take her at face value as much as possible, so I tried to assume that "maybe" meant "maybe." Well, we went home, got the boys, and tried to get the boys to bed, but they were hopped up from their trip and stalled and hemmed and hawed until we forced them to bed. I put the baby to bed while my wife finished with the boys, and by the time we were both in the bedroom we were tired, no doubt about it. We had talked during the afternoon (after "maybe") about Davis' idea that we should "just do it." It made sense to both of us, because she's that spouse in the book--if you happen to catch her willing, she makes love like a freight train and seems to enjoy it as much as I do, which is saying something. I say "seems" because I used to wonder every time whether she was faking. How could someone who enjoyed sex that much, I wondered, hate the idea of sex so much when she wasn't having it? I think I get it now . . . . maybe.

Anyway, I kissed her, I touched certain parts of her legs and back that she loves, I played in her new short hair, but all was for nought. When it was clear she wasn't responding, I asked her how she felt. She told me she felt bad, because I was trying to kiss her and help her get into the mood, but she was "laying here cranky and tired and not even trying."
Now, not to sound selfish, but this is something else I don't completely get. If she's metacognitively aware enough to tell me that she's not really trying to "just do it" and she actually wanted to make an effort, then why not just go ahead and make the effort? Who's stopping her?

Anyway, I didn't say that. I again told the truth, but did it without saying directly everything I was thinking.

I told her:
1. She couldn't get discouraged too easily, because it might take a long time to make much difference.
2. I wasn't angry at her (which was true, I wasn't.)
3. I'm not demanding sex every night; I just want her to think about it, because I want there to be some chance on an average night that maybe we might make love.

So, that made her cry and hug me and that was nice. I'm really not angry at her, but am I disappointed? Well, I'm on the internet at 2:30 in the morning my time, so that probably tells you everything you need to know about that. And now I'm going to bed.

Quote:

Anyway, I kissed her, I touched certain parts of her legs and back that she loves, I played in her new short hair, but all was for nought. When it was clear she wasn't responding, I asked her how she felt. She told me she felt bad, because I was trying to kiss her and help her get into the mood, but she was "laying here cranky and tired and not even trying."
Now, not to sound selfish, but this is something else I don't completely get. If she's metacognitively aware enough to tell me that she's not really trying to "just do it" and she actually wanted to make an effort, then why not just go ahead and make the effort? Who's stopping her?

Hey Pooh, if you ever figure out the answer to THAT one, let me know. Cuz I'm 23 years in, and I still haven't solved it.

Puppy

Even that had a more or less happy ending. I spent a long, restless night, and when I woke up I had certain devilish thoughts running through my head, but it was clear she was going to sleeping in and I was only bothering her, so I got up when the baby cried and changed and fed him. He lay back down, so I went downstairs to make breakfast. (the bigger boys slept in until almost 11:00 a.m.--grandma and grandpa had worn them out.)

The floor in the kitchen was in terrible shape, so I decided I'd sweep and mop before I cooked. I had scrubbed about half of it clean of mud and dog hair and baby cracker crumbs when my wife came downstairs, gave me a long kiss.

Quote:

"Whatcha doin'?"
"I'm gonna cook breakfast, but nobody was awake and I got fed up with the floor so I'm cleaning it first."
"Oh. Well, I'm going to take a shower. Wanna come?"

So . . . that went well. Then I cooked her breakfast and we ate together with the twins still abed, and the kissing continued. I honestly have no idea why we didn't kiss like this before. I had every intention of changing, but I don't think I really made much of a change--but life is certainly different. Now she's off in the bigger nearby town picking up the twins' birthday cake for their pool party tonight, and the baby and I are typing this post. He's a big help at the computer.

Random vignettes and ideas:

1. Yesterday, I leaned too close to my wife and nearly killed us both. She was driving and we were on our way out to see the garage sales and have fun. I said something she liked, leaned a little too close to her and . . . she decided the road could take care of itself, turned 90 degrees to her right and attempted to kiss me passionately. This time it was my fault, because I shouted a warning as we continued to roll toward the intersection--and the car stopped at the stop sign ahead of us--which caused her to break off. I missed out on that kiss, but on the upside we didn't die in a car wreck, so we've got that going for us. Later I demonstrated the technique of waiting for a red light before kissing one's spouse. A few times. It was a good time.

2. Now that I've talked to all of you for awhile, things I never really noticed are blaring out at me. It's often an odd sensation. Years ago I bought my wife a book of "women's erotica" written "for women, by women" and edited by a Ph.d. I know; who could have guessed that this would not be a good way to awaken passion in my wife? A dirty book edited by a Ph.d should be a surefire thing. Anyway, a few days ago I found it as I was clearing the bedroom and took a look through it. There was a story about a slightly older woman working with a college student described as "stereotypically handsome." She's excited by him but worried that he thinks she's too old. He tells her he's going to take her to a local beach because she can't leave without seeing it. She demurs, but he answers every excuse firmly and continues to driver her to the beach. Eventually, of course, they have hot sex on a blanket.
But that's not what really stopped me cold. What got me (this would be a day or two after S&A's long post) was this line:

Quote:

"She had been dating an appropriate man, a lawyer her own age. He never took her anywhere; he was forever asking her where she would like to go."

There was no other description of this loser; clearly the author was confident that mentioning this one aspect of their relationship would be enough for (female) readers to get the message that it was awful. This could not be good. This guy was obviously written in as the unnamed throwaway boring guy the heroine is going to dump as soon as she gets home. And the description of him sounds like a description of me. Never "take her to" the movies, dinner, a park . . . . always ask her where she wants to go. I was so sure that was the right thing to do, I thought I was being such a good husband. But here this author can sum up the archetype of a terrible relationship by casually mentioning the way I treat my wife.
Not good at all.

$;\)$
OOOH la la ,,, you are both doing so well.
I am soooooooooo happy for you!!!!!

*The only trouble I have in that department--and maybe your "h" did too--is that frankly I have trouble with premature ejaculation, so there are times when I have to slow down or even stop lest the whole thing end right there****

OMG?
Now that you mention this my H said this same thing to me..he has to hold back some or here will

too.
I used to feel like it was me and when he explained this to me it helped so much.
I had been complaining that he didnt moan enough or let me know enough and when he explained it to me I burst into tears. Here I am so hot and I turn him on so much and I felt like I was unattractive... UUGGHH !

He always had this look on his face... too serious ....like he was holding his breath....

I am sooooooooooooo happy for you....
See you are attractive.... $;\)$ When my H mops the floor it turns me on too.... $;\)$
Take care,
~Ali

I don't think it could have been the mopping of the floor specifically. I don't think she can turn on a dime that fast. I've been doing more housework for a couple of years now, but I think she felt the same way I did about her attempts at sex--it wouldn't last, she couldn't trust it, it was just something I was doing to spare her feelings.

She is still reading the SSM book, too. We talked yesterday and agreed that we're surprised at how happy we are together now. I don't think either of us realized how unhappy we were before. Now my work is making this last more than a few days.
Last night I was--well, not too tired for sex, exactly, I don't know if that will ever happen again--but tired, and happy. I didn't need sex. I told my wife I was tired and she'd better keep her hands to herself. $\:\)$ She laughed, and if she felt relief at the prospect, at least she didn't let it show. We went to sleep together. It was nice. I think I'm in love.

Quote:

He always had this look on his face... too serious ....like he was holding his breath....

Yeah, that's the look. There are all these "remedies" for premature, but I've never made any of them work very well, and none are very sexy. Have you read about any of these ideas? The most famous is called the "Valsalva Technique." You're supposed have normal sex until you begin to feel like you're going to climax, then "bear down" as if attempting to defecate with some difficulty. When I was younger, I made it work while masturbating (just as an experiment to see if it worked) but it rarely works with my wife. It also has the added bonus that in the middle of hot sex with your wife, you stop and do a perfect imitation of a man attempting to poop out a football, after which, 9 times out of 10, you climax anyway (and she's got to be wondering why, since you looked like you were having a stroke a second before.)

So if your husband has ever stopped in the middle of intercourse and made a face at you like he was pooping, understand that he was trying to be sexy for you. Don't ask him why anyone would ever think that was sexy; he doesn't know.

Our final solution to premature ejaculation was to stop worrying about it. That was one problem we were on our way to solving before I read SSM. My wife can't climax from penetration, but she can move mountains with clitoral stimulation, so we almost always end with me giving her head no matter what else we've done. One night she told me "Look, just go ahead and don't hold back. It's not fun for me if you hold back. You always make sure I come anyway." So now that's what I do.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Our final solution to premature ejaculation was to stop worrying about it. That was one problem we were on our way to solving before I read SSM. My wife can't climax from penetration, but she can move mountains with clitoral stimulation, so we almost always end with me giving her head no matter what else we've done. One night she told me "Look, just go ahead and don't hold back. It's not fun for me if you hold back. You always make sure I come anyway." So now that's what I do.

Bravo to both of you, Bear: this is exactly where you need to be at this point. At the same time, if the parallels that I have drawn between your wife and mine hold true, then in order to engage in the kind of lovemaking that your wife dreams about, you'll need to achieve a good level of ejaculatory control. Luckily, Premature Ejaculation (PE) is one of the easiest sexual problems to alleviate, and can be 'cured,' if you will, with just a few months of dedicated work on your part. I've done it.

Confessions of a Premature Ejaculator

I grew up in a strict, religious household with domineering, critical parents. My mother, in particular, was terrified of teen-aged male sexuality, and did her utmost to monitor my every erection to make sure I didn't do anything 'perverted' with it. As a result, I learned how to secretly reach orgasm quickly and efficiently during masturbation -- along with a good dose of guilt to go with it. Given a few years of this, and you get a man with sometimes severe PE problems when it comes to sexual interactions with a women, particularly with vaginal penetration.

For most of my marriage, my wife and I adopted the solution that you describe above, and while it was alright (note the lukewarm tone), we both wanted more from our sexual encounters. Last year, after I began my campaign to rebuild my marriage and get my wife on board to do the same, I set out to solve my PE problem once and for all. There is a lot of misinformation out there on the web, a lot of 'quick and easy' solutions that don't work, so I can hopefully save you the headache and point in the proper direction to solve PE and master ejaculatory control.

Recommended Reading

I'm going to recommend two books to you, and I hope this isn't seen as advertising -- it isn't. I've culled through a lot of coal to find the diamonds, so hopefully my sharing them will be seen as just that:

The first book is called The New Male Sexuality, by Bernie Zilbergeld. It was recommended to me by our current sex therapist and contains the detailed exercises that he uses for solving PE problems in his clients. Note that PE problems only take up one chapter, but the rest of the book is a very good and insightful read.

The second book has the absolute cheesiest title ever, and is called How to Make Love All Night (and Drive a Woman Wild!), by Barbara Kessling. It's ostensibly about teaching men how to achieve the so-called male multiple-orgasm (MMO), or 'orgasm without ejaculation,' which allows you to carry on to more orgasms until you're ready to have a 'final' orgasm with ejaculation. However, the book's real value is in the ejaculatory control training and exercises leading up to the MMO. Once you've reached the point where you can 'plateau' your arousal state indefinitely while actively thrusting, and then have ONE very nice orgasm when (and only when) you are ready, you may not even care to go on the MMO.

Thirdly, do a Google or Yahoo search on "Kegels PC muscle man men," and read up on the advantages of strengthening and regularly exercising your PC (puboccocygues) muscles. Kegels are NOT just for women, and are very beneficial for men too, particularly those with PE problems. Start a daily Kegal routine now (Kessling's book will put you on one too), as it will take a few weeks to get that muscle group up to snuff with regard to ejaculatory control.

What Doesn't Work

As I said, there is a lot of stuff on the web regarding PE that doesn't work very well. Two techniques to steer clear of are:

(1) The 'squeeze' technique: this is an old method whereby the penis is removed from the vagina as orgasm is approached and the glans manually 'squeezed' to back the arousal state back down. Not only does this interrupt everything, but it also doesn't teach you how to control your arousal via any other method.

(2) The mental 'distraction' technique: this is also an old method which encourages you to distract yourself mentally by focusing on something outside of what you are doing, such as thinking about your ugly Aunt Petunia. Forget it. The techniques you want to master are ones that encourage you to focus on your body and sensations, your partner, and to stay 'in the moment.'

What Does Work

Good ejaculatory control involves a medley of techniques, not just one in particular, that you use in tandem with each other, depending up the circumstances. Your goal is to maintain an arousal level of about 6-8 (on a 1-10 scale) indefinitely, until you are ready to 'drive home' to orgasm. You'll find that this control is very much a 'mind game,' such that as you gain experience and confidence, you'll be able to maintain control more automatically and less 'mechanically' using these techniques:

(1) Thrusting Speed control: faster thrusting builds arousal, slower thrusting lowers arousal. This technique begins with the standard 'Stop - Start' procedure (which tends to interrupt the action and enjoyment for HER), but does become less extreme with practice and experience.

(2) Thrusting Motion control: certain positions / angles are more stimulating than others, so a short-term shift to something less stimulating can be used to drop your arousal level. In my experience, however, those positions which are most stimulating to me are also the most stimulating to HER, so again, this can lead to an interruption in her arousal too.

(3) Breathing control: rapid, shallow breathing builds arousal, slow, deep breathing lowers arousal. This is a very important technique to master, along with thrusting speed and PC muscle control.

(4) PC Muscle Squeeze: This is Kessling's primary technique, and works quite effectively after you've built up that muscle group, either in the form of a series of short, 'hard' squeezes or one long 'hard' squeeze. Note, however: a 'light' squeeze can have the opposite effect and enhance your arousal, so take care.

(5) PC Muscle 'Push': because the PC muscles tend to slowly tense up as your arousal builds, you can reduce your arousal level by purposefully relaxing them, or 'pushing' with them. Your comical description of the 'Valsalva Technique' cracked me up, but is on the right track. The difference lies in that a true PC Muscle Push does not involve your abdominal muscles -- only the PC muscle group.

(6) Mental Sensation Shift: this technique is the most difficult to master (I'm still working on it), and involves mentally shifting your sensation focus from the orgasm-building head of your penis to somewhere else, such as the shaft or internal prostrate area.

With lots of practice, this gives you SIX ways that you can either build or lower your arousal level, and with time, do so without interrupting your partner's arousal buildup.

Final Hints

The key to going from a PE prone man to one with good ejaculatory control is practice, practice, practice. This involves a 2-3 times daily Kegel routine, and a 2-3 times weekly 'exercise' routine --> beginning with masturbation exercises and working to partner exercises. In my case, my wife wasn't all that keen on the sex-as-an-exercise idea, so I went as far as I could go "by hand" on my own, and then incorporated the remaining, penetration exercises into our normal lovemaking.

As I said above, the entire program will take a few months to several months to complete (depending upon the individual), so be very patient and forgiving with yourself, accept setbacks and stall points along the way, and don't proceed on to the next exercise until you fully master the previous. Also, don't over-exercise your PC muscles by doing too many 'reps' and such -- they don't work well for ejaculatory control when they're tired and sore.

If you have questions or comments at any point along the way, holler at me, Bear. I'm still aghast that I admitted to my own PE past here on these forums, but hey, that's what we're here for -- to help each other.

Best regards,

Bagheera

I may need to read that more than once. That's considerably more complicated than any routine I've ever done to train for college football, powerlifting, jiu-jitsu or track and field.

The Kessling Book is listed as unavailable at Amazon, but I'm getting the other one. It can't hurt to read a book.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

I may need to read that more than once. That's considerably more complicated than any routine I've ever done to train for college football, powerlifting, jiu-jitsu or track and field.

Not really -- don't be overwhelmed by my condensed description. It's a matter of starting simple, with a "sensate focus" (i.e. paying attention to your body) exercise and slowly layering on complexity with time and practice.

It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.

Also, the Kessling book is available on-line in audio and ebook forms, if you can't find a hard copy. That's how I found it.

Take care,

-- B.

It also might be nice if I spelled the author's name correctly. The book is: How to Make Love All Night: and Drive a Woman Wild!, by Barbara Keesling (two "e"'s not two "s"'s).

That title still makes me groan...yeck. I'll bet some publisher pushed her into it.

-- B.

Quote:

It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.

Forms? Blasphemy!

We had an argument last night, but we had make-up sex. I can't remember the last time that happened. I really am amazed at how much things have changed in so short a time. I don't trust it yet, but I'm happy.

I packed several garbage bags full of clothes I don't want anymore (still de-cluttering the bedroom) and drove them to the other end of our little town to drop them in the box for the Salvation Army. I stopped to look at a car on the way back, then cruised home. The whole thing probably took 15-20 minutes. When I got home, the dogs were running in the street, my wife was running around trying to catch them, and she was frazzled. I caught the dogs (the only good way is to open up car doors and call them to go for a ride) and she started yelling at me.

I had left without telling her where I was going, the baby was crying at her when she tried to put him to bed, the boys were yelling, then one of them let the dogs out, then they refused to go to bed, and that brought us to the present moment, with the baby in bed, the boys not, the dogs loose, and me getting berated in front of the neighbors. I told her I had every right to leave for a few minutes, and even though it sucked that the boys and the dogs were being so bad while I was gone, it wasn't my fault that they acted that way--I didn't do it. I told her she could take the dogs for a drive and relax for awhile (they learned early that the humans are liars, so now we have to take a ride if we say we're going to take a ride) while I went inside and got the boys to bed; then we'd talk.

I was feeling pretty smart, because I'm not, and dumb people always think they're pretty smart.

So I went upstairs and shut the boys' light off and ordered them into bed. They protested, but they went. I told them we'd talk in the morning about whether they could go to camp today. They freaked out, but I reminded them that this was their only chance to make a good impression and went downstairs. They may not have gone to sleep, but they were quiet.

Now I was feeling really smart. Big mistake. My wife came home and gave me the cold shoulder. She was at the kitchen sink, clearly pissed off. I stood in the kitchen and asked what was wrong. We had what felt like a long discussion about how I owed her the common courtesy of telling her when I left. She yelled. She cried. I worked hard not to yell.
It's not that I think it would be bad to tell her when I leave--you should know when your partner's not around. But I wasn't going to accept that just because I forgot to say something that time, it meant I "usually" don't bother. Usually, I tell her I'm leaving simply because I ask if she needs anything while I'm out. I told her that the way I see it, if it's "just common courtesy" as she says, then a person could forget to do it every once in awhile and not get yelled at for it. If you're allowed to yell at someone and get stony-angry because he didn't do something, then it must have been a grave duty, not just a courtesy. And I didn't accept that it was my grave duty to check in before I leave the house. I wasn't going off to the movies; I just wanted to take a few minutes to donate some old clothes. She was unimpressed. She even tried to end the conversation a couple of times, but I was standing in the door, and if there's one thing I can do, it's fill a doorway.
Finally I said to her, "OK, imagine this for a minute. Imagine you were the one who had to run an errand. You hop in the car, you go do it, and you're feeling kind of good that you got it done. You head home. When you get home, I'm mad as hell--you don't know why. I'm chasing the dogs. You catch the dogs for me, listen to me tell you how the kids won't go to bed, and offer to fix everything--and you do. And when I come back, I'm yelling at you and crying. Now, at this point, I have had two major problems. You didn't cause either problem. You did solve both of them. And I'm standing in your kitchen yelling at you, calling you undependable and crying. Is that OK with you?"
To her credit, she really considered that and agreed that it was no good. We agreed that I would really try to remember to let her know when I leave. She would really try not to overreact again.

I kissed her, and it was good. She responded. I pulled the straps on her tank top down on her arms; she pulled them back up, smiling, and kissed me again. I shut off the lights so the neighbors wouldn't have to see a show and kissed her again. She put her hand down and did a Rockwell test. Must have been acceptable, because she looked up at me and said, "Why don't you take a shower and I'll go up to bed and take all my clothes off?"
I tried to say "Yes, please, I would like that ever so much" but I think it came out "Guuhhh? Uh huh!" I couldn't take offense at the shower idea; I'd been working all day and I needed one.

It was a very quick shower, and the rest of the night went very well. In the morning, though, she complained a little about being so tired. I jokingly asked if I'd kept her up too late; she answered yes. I told her in all seriousness that if she didn't want to make love late at night, I'd be available any time, but I want to make love and that's usually when she's willing.

Today, since I was in the local big town about to pick up one twin from camp/class and she was done with work early there, she called me and asked if I wanted to go get lunch together. We couldn't do it because I had to come back to our small town to get the baby from the babysitter as soon as I picked up my half of the twins, but it was sweet that she asked. Whether she's being sweeter or I'm just appreciating it now, I don't know, but it feels good.

I'm trying to take to heart what someone told another poster here: I don't NEED my wife. I WANT my wife. I think it's making a big difference.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Quote:

It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.

Forms? Blasphemy!

Yeah, sorry....bad analogy on my part. Our boys do Taekwondo, so we know forms all too well.

Still, ejaculatory control training is not as complicated as I seem to have it sound. The number of months involved is not a matter of complexity, it's a matter of retraining your body out of an undesirable conditioned reflex, which takes time.

It is worth the effort, however. Quite worth it.

-- B.

My books were shipped today, so I'll start on those soon.

We had what I can only call mechanical, fumbling sex today. I had to be out of town all day until late last night, but I tried to lay the groundwork. I told her I wanted to make love this morning. I told her I wanted her to think it over, and I gave her a few things to think about. She has taken to saying "We'll see." She used to say that and mean "NO," but now we've talked about getting to a genuine "maybe." I don't want to demand that she tell me she'll be ready for sex at such-and-such a time, but if she says "maybe" I want her to mean it. Anyway, I believe her now when she says "we'll see."

Well, this morning came around, and the baby got up early, crying, and it just wasn't going to happen. I took my son to his class in the big town nearby, and since I never get to shoot anymore and my gun club is located there, I used the time he was in class to go over and do some shooting. It was nice to get a little time to do what I want to do. But by the time I was done with that, had done some shopping and picked up the kid, I was exhausted from being in the car 8 hours last night. I came home, went upstairs and took a nap. Later my wife put the baby down for a nap and came in to see me. We kissed, which led to fondling, and she wasn't really responding wholeheartedly, but she was going through the motions. I think it was the first time she's actually tried to "Just Do It" as Davis would say. We got as far as me giving her oral before I started to feel like I was getting a genuine response from her, which is glossing over a lot of fumbling and a couple of awkward pauses, but there you are. At that point, she was right there in the moment and sexy as hell. I brought her to orgasm and she pulled me up for intercourse. I don't think it felt very good to her, at least at first. It sure felt awkward to me, but no way was I going to do anything that she might take as rejection of her effort. Eventually she loosened up a bit and so did I. I actually think I could have lasted a lot longer that time, but the truth was that even though I love making love to my wife, this was more of an experiment for her and I wanted to end it on a high note before it began to hurt or bore her. Afterward we lay wrapped up together, and THAT felt GREAT. We talked about what we had done and why it felt so weird. I told her that the fact that she was trying meant more to me than anything and made me glad I was married to her. I think all in all it was good. The first time someone tries to make love, even though she really doesn't feel like doing it, has to be weird. She's always been so big on her "mood" having to be just right. It must be maddening to go against that, but she did.

Gurney says mood is a thing for cattle or making love, but in the first place, that isn't always true, and in the second place, I can't help but wonder what happens when Gurney is in the mood for cattle. I hope it involves a steakhouse.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

I told her I wanted to make love this morning. I told her I wanted her to think it over, and I gave her a few things to think about. She has taken to saying "We'll see." She used to say that and mean "NO," but now we've talked about getting to a genuine "maybe." I don't want to demand that she tell me she'll be ready for sex at such-and-such a time, but if she says "maybe" I want her to mean it. Anyway, I believe her now when she says "we'll see."

Something important to keep in mind, Bear, and that took my small fleet of relationship books to pound into my thick skull, is the following:

Men have such a high level of testosterone that for them, sexual desire is almost effortless. In our case sexual desire is, let's say, 70% hormonal and only 30% mental. An open mind and little bit of visual or tactile stimulation and the light comes ON -- we're there. The pump is always primed, and we only have that 30% of mental ground to cover before we're ready to go.

Women have about 1/10th the level of testosterone that men have, so for them, sexual desire is something like only 10% hormonal and 90% mental. There is a lot more ground to cover mentally, and for the mother with a small child to care for, that mental gap can seem pretty daunting. In her case, the pump has to be primed first, before she can go anywhere with it.

So in your wife's case, "We'll see" or "Maybe" is an honest answer -- she really doesn't know.

That's where you come in. Never forget the dynamics of romance and masculinity / femininity. "Maybe" often means "convince me" or "seduce me," and it isn't a game: she honestly needs your help to prime the pump and cover that 90% swath of mental ground to get to sexual desire.

At times "Maybe" may even mean "Don't talk about it -- just take me! Let me feel your passion and desire for me!" Although, this particular action does requires some pre-arranged ground rules, as I've discussed before.

Ester Perel (author of Mating in Captivity) calls men, in a relationship where there are small children and the wife is the primary caregiver, the "Keeper of the Flame" (of passion). Left entirely to herself, your wife can go days, weeks, or longer with no 'ignition' at all. Your job then, is to occasionally steer her back to taking time for herself, taking time for yourselves as a couple, taking time to be passionate as a lover again. Learn what it takes to reignite that 'flame' in her.

Also, make very sure that she understands, and hears from your own lips, and from you own touch, the feelings that making love generates in you -- every time. Leave no doubt in her mind that it isn't just a physical release: it's an emotional reconnection, a loving act of bonding for you. She may want to feel your passion and desire for her during the act, but the soft, loving 'afterglow' is just as important.

Best regards,

Bagheera

Bagheera - Amen to your wonderful understanding of what it takes for some women to get sexually aroused. Your description is perfect!

Silly - You are doing so very well, really.

To both of you, I want to give you hope: once you can cross that hurdle in your wife's mind/body connection, to where she is thinking about sex regularly and you are having sex regularly (even if "Just do it" for a while still), then soon enough she will be "closer" to ready for sex more often. At some point in the process, if you both remain committed to it, she will just "be horny" on her own all of a sudden...and then it will happen more and more often. It builds upon itself, once she gets her groove on. Eventually, the same woman who was LD can truly change and become HD. Not to say that for sure this will happen with your wives, but the *possibility* is there, if as a couple you really stay committed to it.

Strive for it! :0)

I used to think I was LD. Now I know I was just disconnected from my sexual self...by my choice and also my neglect of that part of myself. Once I got connected to that part of myself again and really got going, I realized I was actually just waiting to blossom into a totally new woman...the sexy, vibrant one I always wished I could be. Your wives do want to be that woman, too. And you are both doing so well in helping her.

DanceQueen

Well, I'm trying. It's easier now that I understand a little better what she's thinking. I don't have to take it all as personally.

My books arrived today, so I have plenty of reading to do!

Well, we took a little break. On Saturday, we were both exhausted (we went to a barbecue at our neighbors' house, then took the kids to the drive-in for a late movie.) Now, to me, "exhausted" often means "Let's go to bed early, make love, and fall asleep in each others' arms." To her, any amount of tiredness means sexy time is over. "Exhaustion" means there's no point in even mentioning it.

So I did another 180 and told her I thought we should take the rest of the weekend off from sex. I took Sunday morning to get up early and go shooting--this is something I've always loved, but I've been complaining about not having time for a few years now. So on Saturday I signed the twins up for a CMP Juniors program for Sunday night, and while I was at it, signed up for a CMP highpower match. That's a 200-yard match with service rifles--I used a borrowed M1 Garand. I'd never shot in one before, and was further than generally get to shoot, but I thought it would be fun. It was! The pouring rain started with our practice shots, but it was OK because the sky cleared and the sun came out a few minutes after were finished for the day. I had a blast and did pretty well for my first time.

I came home, worked on the house some, and then took the twins back to the gun club for the CMP Juniors. That was great, too. The instructors were excellent and the boys had a great time.

I stuck to my 180 and made no attempt to initiate sex, though I tried to fit in some kissing. I was rather proud of that, but if she noticed, she didn't mention it. I didn't want to act, on Monday, as if a time limit had expired and now all bets were off, but I did have hopes. I did my best to be seductive in the morning, but we were getting all three boys ready to go and there wasn't much sexy about it. She was gone most of the day running around, and when she came home we made dinner and talked for awhile. I have one of our dogs in obedience classes this summer, and they're held at 8:15 on Monday nights, so I had to leave to do that. I came home around 10:00 to find her in bed with the baby, so we played with him for awhile and then I put him to bed. When I came back, she was lying across the entire bed watching TV. She apologized "I guess I should get out of your way, huh?"
I told her she wasn't in my way and lay down behind her, spooning. We talked, but not about sex or relationship stuff. I lightly ran my fingers up and down her legs, touched her cheek, little stuff like that. I had rubbed her feet earlier while she played with the baby, so she seemed open to being touched. Eventually, though, I put my hand on her breast. Her nipples were rock hard. I've always thought that meant arousal, but she's told me over and over now that it doesn't mean anything. I still don't always remember. Anyway, her response was:
Pulling my hand down."I'm sleepy."
(Joking, or trying to)"Yeah, me too. I'm sorry, is it hard to sleep with my hand on your breast?"
"If you make sure you don't move or caress me or anything."
(Putting my hand back)"OK, I will, but really? This doesn't feel good to you?" (I was thinking of the hard nipple under my palm, and thinking she must be feeling something.)
"Sigh . . . . not really, it just feels warm.
(Taking my hand off her breast and placing it on her stomach.)"Oh."
"I like laying here with your arm around me. . . ."
"Yeah. Me, too."

I knew she was trying to make me feel better with that last bit, and I knew I didn't give her much to go on, but I was disappointed, and I wasn't kidding about being tired. And the truth was, she didn't really want me lying there with my arm around her, either. Eventually I got the message in all her squirmings and went back to my side of the bed.

But I didn't learn my lesson. This morning, in the kitchen, I tried a deep kiss. She was responding until I brushed her breast with my hand again. Then she grabbed my wrist and pulled my arm down. She pulled away from the kiss, too. I was hurt by this and I guess I didn't really try to hide it. I asked her what was wrong.
"Well, it's just that (looked toward the kids, they were eating breakfast and couldn't see a thing) . . . . I just (looked the other way, at the window, we were nowhere near it) . . . . I don't know. It's just my instinct, I guess. I AM trying, you know."

I'm trying not to take these things personally anymore, but it's impossible not to be sad that her "instinct" is to push me away and reject me. And I guess she's trying, but to me, it sure looked like she tried to find an excuse before she decided she had to tell the truth. I'm sure that's probably unfair, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I do think she's trying . . . sort of. . . but it feels like I'm doing all the work and she's just going to snap back to "normal" like a rubber band if I "let" her.

She did take the SSM book with her on her way out the door. Whether to read it or just to make me feel better, I don't know, but at least she is trying and she does seem to care about how I feel now.

Silly,

Believe it or not, you two are doing very well.

Just a point from a woman about the breasts thing....PLEASE BELIEVE her when she tells you that a hard nipple does not mean arousal. It is not the same as an erection, ok? This is something men have a hard time understanding....but to be stimulated by breast touching is a *choice* we make. Breasts are not like a penis or a clitoris. They can be completely asexual, or VERY sexual...all depending upon choice, mood, circumstance, etc. It is actually very demeaning and irritating to a woman when a man will not realize this fact. It is as if he is saying to her "I don't believe you - you are OBVIOUSLY turned on, I can see it by the fact of your hard nipples - and yet you are withholding that from me". How hard is it for a woman to be told she is lying about something like this? VERY.

Silly - it simply doesn't work that way. Nipples get hard for any number of reasons and it is not a reflection of desire or arousal. Obviously she nursed your babies, right? Are you thinking that her nipples being hard during nursing meant sexual arousal?

Not meaning to pound you with 2x4's but this is just something that men frequently don't understand.

DanceQueen

Another hint for you Bear (but leaving the 2x4 to DQ...)

During the normal work day, I would avoid touching or kissing your wife in a sexual way. This is particularly true if she's already wrapped up in tending to kids or housework or getting ready to run errands or whatever. When a woman's mind is occupied with work or business of some kind, trying be sexual with her is usually a turn-off and often causes a grumpy response.

What you need to foster at those times is an emotional connection, via non-sexual touch. A warm hug, a quick non-sexual kiss, even a possessive little pat on the behind is alright, but going beyond that is not welcome JUST THEN. Save it for when it will be welcome.

I had to learn to this lesson the hard way, believe me. By day, my wife is the Nice Girl turned Mrs. Proper Mommy, who doesn't flirt or tease with me, and expects me to be Mr. Proper Daddy. Non-sexual touch is appreciated, but not more. However, at night after the kids are in bed and she's had time to unwind in a book for a while, seduction is welcome and she can put Mrs. Proper Mommy in the closet while we play. I have learned / am learning to choose my times and places carefully if seduction is what I have in mind.

Married women who grew up in the Nice Girls Don't or you're a whore! mentality (and few don't) are often very adept at being Ms. Proper by day and Tigress by night. You're better off gong along with that rather than trying to fight it -- enjoy the tigress when she comes out to play!

-- B.

Yes amen (as usual) to Bagheera's points about being in mommy mode. It is very hard for most women to switch roles.

Plus...ok this one is hard to say because there are not many descriptions help me describe this but...men and little boys tend to try to *distract* mommies and they get gwumpy when they can't have all of mommy's attention at any given time.

Now I'm not sure if you (men) will recognize this within yourselves, but I have a theory that for some reason, for you men, if you can draw mommy away from her task and lure her into a sexual mood, you somehow feel *success* at something you have in your minds as a gauge to your own seductive powers. You seem to even be ok with just luring her into a mood, not even having to get her into bed. Somehow you think that this *says* something if you can turn her mind off from her task at hand and on to YOU and your sexy self.

Well...if you guys could just...you know....not do that? I mean, I have no idea where this comes from, but I do know that it isn't really fair to us women to do this when it is mostly because you want some kind of ego stroke. Now don't 2x4 me back, because I know you aren't wanting sex with your wife as an ego stroke. I am talking specifically about this bizarre habit of you guys insisting on trying to get your wife to get into the mood while she has her elbows deep in dishes and little kids at her skirt. Why do you want it specifically *at this time*? Is there any merit to my feeling that it is some kind of challenge or gauge to you?

Not sure if I am way off base or not but basically, nearly all men do this and nearly all women dislike it.

DanceQueen

Wow a couple of lights just turned on in my head! I used to do that seductive thing while W was in the kitchen making dinner. It's worse than that, without even thinking, acting on instinct only (I guess) I'd try to give her a hug when she has a knife in her hand and cutting something. Lately I have really been trying to control that as it would bug the hell out of her when I'd do that.

The other light is she has told me things will be so different between us when D has gone to college. This makes perfect sense to me now. It's because mommy-mode will have ended for good and she will have more of that sexy lady side of her back again and to concentrate on.

When she told me that the first time my response was, "why wait until then let's start now." I never considered the mom factor.

Silly - I got onto this thread late but a quick note on the PE problem. I had that on and off depending on my fatigue and how often between ML in my younger years. But I find as I get older, it is no longer a problem. After about age 40 I found that I could go very long, too long in fact if W doesn't "force" the issue so to speak (thankfully she knows the right 'tricks' to help things along when she is ready for me to finish).

I like your method of finishing with her last though. I had always done it the other way around, so I may try that if PE happens again.

It sounds like you two are doing a great job recovering from your SSM. Keep up the good work. $\:\)$

Quote:

What you need to foster at those times is an emotional connection, via non-sexual touch. A warm hug, a quick non-sexual kiss, even a possessive little pat on the behind is alright, but going beyond that is not welcome JUST THEN. Save it for when it will be welcome.

This is going to sound defensive, but I've been doing that for 12 years. I really don't think she sees a connection between any non-sexual touching (hugs, pats, light kisses, fingers in the hair, a squeeze on the shoulder or an arm around the waist) and anything to do with sex. I promise you that a lack of this kind of loving touching is not at issue.

DanceQueen, of course you're right and both men AND women do this for exactly the reason you guessed--it's an ego stroke to think that you're sexy enough to distract someone from what they're doing. It's certainly not something men do and women dislike--women do it all the time.

However, I wasn't exactly doing that. I didn't want her to have sex with me at that moment, I just wanted to touch her momentarily because I'm trying to follow the advice I was given here--remember how I'm supposed to be seductive all day, outside the bedroom? I'm just trying to do that--the idea is to keep giving her little reminders of our sexual relationship outside the bedroom, at least as I understand it. (Well, that and I enjoy touching her breast--who am I kidding?) I wasn't asking her to drop anything; we were standing in a doorway, kissing.

She told me honestly enough what happened. She wasn't busy, people weren't watching, she just followed her "instinct" and pushed me away.

We took the kids to the pool today and had a good time, and on the way home I joked that we would give the baby a bath, put him to bed and take a shower together to get the pool water off. I got a polite half-smile. Later, when I put the baby to bed and lay down on our bed for a few minutes, she came up and kissed me, saying we should go have dinner and put the twins to bed, and then she would "make it up to you." She keeps saying that.

Anyway, here we are sitting in the living room with dinner done and the kids playing. I guess I'll see what happens when the kids go to bed. On the one hand, I don't really like that she's going to "make it up to me." On the other hand, that's fairly petty thinking. I'm trying to get her to do more of something I really like and she really doesn't, so it's not really fair to hope that she'll pretend it's not all my idea.

Aargh.

She got sick. I don't know how it happened, but she's miserable with some stomach thing that must have come on in about five minutes. I'm trying to avoid getting angry at all costs, but you have to admit, the timing sucks.

Like I told Ali, it's not that it's her fault, I know it's not. But it IS just my damn luck.

Silly - just honestly, you are still putting way too much pressure on her for sex. But hang in there you will get it right soon. :0)

DQ

Oh and also...Silly...if I went out to the shop while my man was out there trying to use power tools on some important house project and I threw my arms around his waist and started rubbing my front against his back...he would stop me immediately and make it clear that this isn't an appropriate moment! But to a woman, when she is cooking or otherwise "working" at her house or children it is the same thing to her. You say both men and women do this, but I beg to differ. Men make it very clear very quickly what their personal space and physical boundaries are, and as a woman you are usually not welcome to come get into his space or on his body without his direct consent, especially if he is working on something.

I don't think it is as common for a woman to do this "getting your attention" or distracting you while you are doing something else as it is for a man. Not sure what others would say about this but, does your wife do this to you? Just trying to make you think about new things from the other side! It helps everyone when we learn.

DQ

Quote:

Silly - just honestly, you are still putting way too much pressure on her for sex. But hang in there you will get it right soon. :0)

OK, assuming you're right, what do I do? I did two weeks of not initiating or mentioning sex in any way, and that just about killed me. I'll go back and read the thread from then, but it doesn't seem, in my memory, like it made much difference to her.

I was told here that she needs time to build up arousal and so I have to mention sex early and then keep giving her small reminders so she has time to think about it. That's all I was trying to do. I'm trying to find a balance here. I don't want to "pressure" her, but I didn't like pretending I didn't care about sex, either. Besides, I vent here, but I didn't say anything to my wife (not even by a look or an attitude) about being disappointed about sex last night. It wasn't her fault, and I tried very hard to act like I understood that. I only let my little-boy irritation show here.

So, I'm putting too much pressure on her. What should I do instead of what I'm doing now?

Quote:

I don't think it is as common for a woman to do this "getting your attention" or distracting you while you are doing something else as it is for a man.

Well, neither of us can prove it, but certainly I disagree. Women do it all the time. My wife doesn't--anymore--but when sex was something she thought about, she certainly did. Nowadays I doubt she stopped because she's superior to men; I imagine she stopped because it was a sexual thing to do and she doesn't feel sexual anymore.

The biggest difference is that the average man would probably only get a flash of irritation--the average guy wants sex enough to drop what he's doing if his woman indicates that she's willing at that moment. So he might say it's annoying that she interrupted his work, but his actions say he didn't really mind.

Pressure is happening because, no matter how you try to spin this thing, you are still goal oriented on getting sex. You are not trying to really repair the problem. There is a difference. The problem is NOT that you aren't getting sex, but you think that it is, therefore you are only focused on getting that "problem" fixed...not the root issue, which is that you and your wife are BOTH contributing to your lack of physical intimacy.

And as far as the "superior to men" comment, puh-leeze. Can you not take advice for what it is worth? I am not saying women don't do this (trying to distract to get sexual attention) because they are superior...I am saying it is because women tend to be very concerned about others' feelings and once we get that message "don't bug me while I am working" we remember it and don't do it again. Whereas men are more concerned about their own feelings...which is not to say they are inferior it is simply a fact (and it is actually something women should adopt more often). Men will tend to be more concerned with their own need for sudden sexual attention than he is concerned about whether his wife is receptive to that or not. When she isn't, he gets insulted, but how is that fair? She never invited it and she is clearly working at that moment.

But don't believe me! Just go ahead and grab her boob the next time she has a frying pan in her hand and then see how far you get. Do it every morning! Its a sure fire way to get her turned on! (hee hee...I'm just joshin' ya).

DQ

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Point taken, and early on in this thread, you did mention that you had been practicing non-sexual touch on a regular basis for some time -- I do remember that. It was something that -> I <- stopped doing when I became estranged from my wife, and it was a habit that I had to make myself pick up again when I began making repairs to my relationship. Pardon my projecting!

However, when I, DQ, or Ali state that "seduction begins in the morning" (and not at 10:30 PM), what that really means is: begin building the romantic mood that morning, and refresh it during the day. There is a very fine line here you have to walk between being affectionate and sexual, and where you walk will be different depending upon the woman and the day that you are trying to warm her up. In general, however, start lightly and affectionately, and build from there as opportunities permit and depending upon the feedback you are getting from her.

For example, first thing in the morning, the only change I might make from a 'standard' good morning hug and kiss is that I will make the kiss just a little more lingering. I take just an extra second to enjoy the taste of her, and let her taste my desire for her -- then disengage. It's like striking a piece of steel with flint: all I want is a tiny spark, a "hmmm, he tasted good" thought. Nothing more.

During the day, I'll give her a phone call and see how the day is going for her, remembering that at this time of the day, she's in full-blown mommy-mode, has a list, and is plowing through it. My only goal is to maintain the emotional connection and remind her that I'm thinking about her and actually care about how her day is going.

When I get home in the evening, I might walk in the door with flowers (depending upon what the corner store has on display) -- nothing fancy or expensive: that really isn't necessary. Just something to say "You're special to me." I might give her a somewhat more lingering greeting kiss than the one that morning, but again stop there, and disengage. She's still in mommy-mode, dinner has to be put on the table, homework for school done, and so forth. Strike the flint and steel again, but don't try to make a flame. Additionally, doing all you can to help her finish off her day's to-do list will be appreciated and seen as a romantic gesture (yes, I know you already to this too).

The rest of the evening is pretty variable, depending upon the circumstances, but may involve more of the engage-disengage dance and a few more sparks. I don't, however, ever try to start the flame going until she's done with her stuff and can get out of mommy-mode for the night. In addition, my wife needs some definite decompression time to herself each night, so I make sure she gets that too. I play it all by ear, and take the openings when they come.

It's all a dance, and sometimes it goes well, and sometimes one of us gets our toes stepped on. My wife has this romantic notion that if I love her enough, and understand her well enough, I'll just know what to do and when to do it when it comes to seducing her. But she's also a big girl who knows that real life doesn't work like the fantasy, and that I can be as perplexing to her sometimes as she is to me -- even after 23 years together. So I just do the best I can to read her moods and learn my lessons as I go. There are days when I can leave a dirty note stuck to the bathroom mirror (that she'll find after I leave for work) and she will smile about it and tuck that thought away. There are other days when she will roll her eyes at that note and think something uncomplimentary about the crude banality of men. There is certainly a skill and an art to romancing even a single woman that you know better than anyone else, and in my own newly rediscovered romantic relationship, I've still got the training wheels on.

It's also important to note that at your stage in recovering your SSM, there is still a LOT of sexual tension between you two, which tends to work against you. It puts pressure on her (whether imposed by you on her, or by her on herself), and makes you anxious and 'simmering,' like a shark circling in the water just waiting to snap at an opportunity to make love OR to feel rejected. As The SSM states in Part III, the only way to get what you want is to be patient and not push it. The more relaxed you can BOTH be --before-- anything happens, the better are the chances of something actually happening.

For now you're sort of stuck in the mode of "I'll relax when I make love to her," and she's stuck in the mode of "I'll relax when he stops hounding me about it." Believe me Bear, that's a tangled web that I know all too well, and have only recently broken free of. It takes work and TIME.

You've got her attention, she's read the book (or is looking at it), and she's willing to work with you to solve the issue. So be patient, and GAL, GAL, GAL.

Take care,

Bagheera

Quote:

OK, so what do I do? And let's not kid ourselves, I wouldn't be here if I had a satisfying sex life. That's why I bought a book called The Sex-Starved Marriage. I do NOT agree with your take on the "root issue." If I'm not focused on solving the problem of how we both contribute, then what's with all the changes I've made in the way I do things? If I think it's all her fault, why have I changed my behavior?

Quote:

And as far as the "superior to men" comment, puh-leeze. Can you not take advice for what it is worth?

I do take advice. I've taken a lot of yours. I don't blindly accept anything. I understood that you were trying to help, but I saw a problem with your reasoning and I told you about it. There's more coming.

Quote:

I am not saying women don't do this (trying to distract to get sexual attention) because they are superior...I am saying it is because women tend to be very concerned about others' feelings and once we get that message "don't bug me while I am working" we remember it and don't do it again. Whereas men are more concerned about their own feelings...which is not to say they are inferior it is simply a fact (and it is actually something women should adopt more often). Men will tend to be more concerned with their own need for sudden sexual attention than he is concerned about whether his wife is receptive to that or not. When she isn't, he gets insulted, but how is that fair? She never invited it and she is clearly working at that moment.

Look at what you wrote and tell me it isn't just a little biased against men. Women are selfless, men are selfish, but it's OK because that's how they are.
Except in western civilization, which is where you and I live. There ethics are based on Judeo-Christian morality and a person with little or no concern for others is definitely seen as inferior to an empathetic person.
You don't have to agree with me, but don't dismiss my point of view by telling me I just don't want advice. There's a little more going on in my head than that.

Quote:

But don't believe me! Just go ahead and grab her boob the next time she has a frying pan in her hand and then see how far you get. Do it every morning! Its a sure fire way to get her turned on! (hee hee...I'm just joshin' ya).

I know, and I don't want to sound like I've lost my sense of humor, but . . . . you do recall that there was no frying pan and no job being performed in real life, right? That was the scenario you came up with to explain her state of mind. Years ago, I did do something sexual--I don't remember what now--when she was cutting something in the kitchen. She told me that was dangerous. She was right, so I never did it again.

Quote:

It's all a dance, and sometimes it goes well, and sometimes one of us gets our toes stepped on. My wife has this romantic notion that if I love her enough, and understand her well enough, I'll just know what to do and when to do it when it comes to seducing her.

You're right, and I guess I wasn't treading as lightly as I should have been. It just seems like I can't win. It's been almost a month now that I've been trying to make a concerted effort NOT to pressure her, and what did it get me? Pressure. On her. I know it will take time, but it felt like total failure this morning.

Quote:

It's also important to note that at your stage in recovering your SSM, there is still a LOT of sexual tension between you two, which tends to work against you. It puts pressure on her (whether imposed by you on her, or by her on herself), and makes you anxious and 'simmering,' like a shark circling in the water just waiting to snap at an opportunity to make love OR to feel rejected. As The SSM states in Part III, the only way to get what you want is to be patient and not push it. The more relaxed you can BOTH be --before-- anything happens, the better are the chances of something actually happening.

I don't want to be a shark, but sometimes it seems like the more I try not to be, the more she sees it in me. Like this morning.

Quote:

You've got her attention, she's read the book (or is looking at it), and she's willing to work with you to solve the issue. So be patient, and GAL, GAL, GAL.

I'm trying. I've started shooting and bicycling again. Shot my first highpower match on Sunday, in the pouring rain so hard I couldn't see through shooting glasses, and it was a blast. But it's hard for me to take a lot of time away from the family and not feel guilty. I've really thrown myself into a big political project lately, too, and that's been going great.

OK, now that I've pissed everybody off, here's how my night went. We talked a little bit this morning. I told her about what Ali said, and asked her what she thought. She told me that, yes, she felt like she was under a lot of pressure. I told her I was sorry that I'd put pressure on her, that I'd been trying to do the opposite. I wasn't mad at her, I just felt defeated. I'd thought I'd been doing so much to make things better, and here we were back where we started--both trying to please the other, not knowing what to do, but feeling all this pressure to get it right.
There were tears. We talked about what she wants. She told me she has no idea. She told me:
"I don't think about things like you do. I don't know what I think about things. I don't know what I feel about things!"

We've talked about this before--that I sit and analyze my thoughts and everyone else's, and she just floats through. Only I don't think she really does; how does life get her so depressed if she's floating through without thinking about it? In any case, I asked her to think about what she wants from me and tell me about it later today when she got the chance. That was as low-pressure as I could manage to be.

Then it was time to take the twins to their camps/classes. I took one to basketball, went to the computer store with the other one to get my wife's laptop (it's been sitting useless for months, so as part of taking charge I took it in and authorized repairs) then got him lunch and dropped him off at his class at noon. Then it was back to the other town to get the first kid, take him to lunch, and then we had a couple of hours to kill before we had to be home. I took him to the bike shop and let him look around while I asked about parts for the baby bike trailer. Then we went to the local bike trail (our town doesn't have one) and took a walk. As we walked, I picked wildflowers and made a bouquet for my wife. When we got home, I put the flowers in a vase with a sticky note that said "No pressure, just flowers."

I was worried that she'd think I was trying to replay the old incident with wildflowers that I told you all about, thus leading to more pressure, but I figured only a coward is afraid to give his woman flowers. She told me she loved them.

Now, here's where it got confusing for me, and I still haven't sorted through it yet. I hope I did the right thing. We talked a little more before dinner, and she told me she still wasn't really sure what she wants. I told her that was OK, but to think about what I'd be doing if the pressure were gone. She got tearful and talked about her feeling that she's lost herself; she had a terrible year at work last year, and she feels like she compromised too much. (In our line of work the school tells you that you have to fight for the students, then they constantly demand cuts in services. Our students are not the average kids.) She says she feels empty. I told her I do get the impression that she thinks that what she thinks doesn't matter, but it does matter to the rest of us. The only thing she thought of that she wanted to change was her weight, so I suggested she come walking with me tomorrow morning. I think it would do us good in a lot of ways to walk together in the early mornings before the twins wake up.

We had dinner and put the baby to bed; the boys had to go to bed early because they were so crazy last night. I sat down to get some work done on my political project. She took a shower, came out in that thin robe and . . . well, she made . . . overtures. Expressions of interest. There were eyebrows involved, along with other parts. It was crystal clear what she wanted. I know I must have looked like a puzzled dog trying to figure out a doorknob. She'd just been telling me about all the pressure I put her under . . . was this real? Was she reacting to more pressure, real or perceived? Did she even know? If she didn't, how could I ever be expected to know? I took a shower, too, and went upstairs.

She was waiting for me. She tried to initiate, but I stopped her and asked whether she was sure and what was going on. She said she couldn't tell me what was going on, but I'd brought her the flowers and listened to her. I told her the flowers were not intended to get her into bed (and they weren't, whatever anyone thinks.) She said that was fine, but now she wanted me.
I told her honestly that I was now completely adrift with no idea what the right thing to do might be. That I was worried about how she would feel in the morning--would she decide I had pressured her? That I should have said "no?" There was no way to be sure. I asked her one more time whether she was sure. She said yes. I kissed her and told her I wanted her and we'd deal with tomorrow when it came. She told me if I'd asked one more time, she'd have told me no.

I'll spare you the details, but I'll mention something I know Bagheera will enjoy analyzing. As things progressed, she asked me:
"What would you say if I wanted to have WILD sex tonight?"
"I'd say yes. What do you have in mind?"
"Oh, I don't know."
"You can't think of anything?"
"Well . . . no. I don't know."

I decided to take that as permission. I took over and took what I wanted. It was on the forceful side. She really seemed to enjoy it, and we had a great time lying together snuggling afterwards, but I couldn't help wondering what she's going to think about it tomorrow.

I know one of the women is going to explain that these are not mixed signals and it's all perfectly clear once you understand how a woman's mind works, but, (and this is the catch) clearly I have no idea at all how a woman's mind works.

Your story continues to sound far all too familiar to me, Bear. I've made many of the same fumbling mistakes, been haunted by many of the same doubts and uncertainties, but believe me when I say that you are on the right track.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

There were tears. We talked about what she wants. She told me she has no idea. She told me: "I don't think about things like you do. I don't know what I think about things. I don't know what I feel about things!"

The best thing that you can do then, for both of you, is to continue to 'man up' in the relationship. Take the lead: she'll let you know when you're doing the right thing, or if you're on the wrong track. My own wife and I have recognized the irony of our own marriage recovery: in order to fix it, I (the man) had to point the way toward repairing our emotional relationship (which was supposed to be her area of expertise), while she (the woman) had to point the way toward repairing our physical relationship (which was supposed to be my area of expertise). In both cases, however, I had to be 'the man,' and take charge.

Quote:

She took a shower, came out in that thin robe and . . . well, she made . . . overtures. Expressions of interest. There were eyebrows involved, along with other parts. It was crystal clear what she wanted. I know I must have looked like a puzzled dog trying to figure out a doorknob. She'd just been telling me about all the pressure I put her under . . . was this real? Was she reacting to more pressure, real or perceived? Did she even know? If she didn't, how could I ever be expected to know?

As my kids would say: "Dude! Stop it!" When something like this happens, take Michele's advice and Just Do It!. Stop the analysis, stop the second guessing, stop the doubting -- just enjoy!

Heaven knows, I'm terrible at this myself, Bear. I've got a Ph.D., and researching, collecting data, analyzing, forming models, and testing hypotheses have been a part of me since I was eight. And do you know how much good that Ph.D. does me in the bedroom? Nadda, zilch, and zip --> this mindset hurts me more than it helps me. One of the things that my wife and our therapist are working to get me to STOP is the constant analysis of our relationship and "spectatoring" in the bedroom (monitoring my 'performance' and analyzing it afterwards). My wife jokingly calls herself my latest 'research project,' and I can see why (although she knows how deeply in love with her I am).

Quote:

She said she couldn't tell me what was going on, but I'd brought her the flowers and listened to her.

BINGO! You successfully romanced her yesterday, and didn't even know it. You made her feel special and cherished (with the flowers), and connected with her emotionally (with the conversation, especially conversation about FEELINGS). Congratulations!

Since I mentioned flowers before, I'll add one warning note about them. The perceived intent behind them is critical. If your wife thinks that the message is "I'm giving you these flowers ONLY because I want to get laid," then you fail. If your wife thinks that the message is "I'm giving you these flowers because you're incredibly special to me (whether I get laid or not)" then you've succeeded.

Quote:

I'll spare you the details, but I'll mention something I know Bagheera will enjoy analyzing. As things progressed, she asked me:
"What would you say if I wanted to have WILD sex tonight?"
"I'd say yes. What do you have in mind?"
"Oh, I don't know."
"You can't think of anything?"
"Well . . . no. I don't know."

Me? Analyze? I've LIVED this one, puzzled it, researched it, and now (think I) understand it. One of the keys to arousing a sexually submissive person is to remove all burdens from them. They don't want to take charge, they don't want to make a decision, they don't want to spell out or even think about what they might want for themselves. Their joy and their arousal comes from following your lead, your directions, your arousal, and your pleasure. It's an incredibly freeing experience, especially for someone who has to be in charge of [a company, a classroom, a pack of children] during the day. You aren't just pleasuring yourself Bear, you're giving her a wonderfully liberating gift, and she TRUSTS you, and only you, to do that for her.

Quote:

I decided to take that as permission. I took over and took what I wanted. It was on the forceful side. She really seemed to enjoy it, and we had a great time lying together snuggling afterwards....

I'm going to encourage you again to have a serious discussion with your wife, outside of the bedroom, and set up any necessary boundaries and a safe-word system. You need this for your own protection, and for the safety of both of you. You may never need to use it (my wife and I haven't yet), but it's there, just in case.

I'm also going to step out on a limb here, and recommend that you research the Taken in Hand (TIH) relationship. It may help to answer some of your question about your wife, and may even be what she is hoping for, even if she can't spell it out --> a common trait among strong, naturally dominant women who lean this way. I certainly never thought that my own strong, feminist wife secretly yearned for a more 'traditional' husband-wife relationship, and for many years this lack of understanding on my part hurt us. I finally 'got it,' and the changes we have made have been remarkably nice for both of us.

You'll have to figure out what's best for your OWN relationship, however. Everyone is different. For example, I can see DanceQueen balking loudly at adopting such a male-led relationship. So do what's best for you and your wife, and take my words as just a sharing of my own journey.

Best regards,

Bagheera

Um...Baggy? You would be 100% incorrect with the assumption that I would balk at a male-led relationship. My man physically and roughly takes me regularly, and we even go much farther than that at times into true sexual domination and submission. I love a good spanking from him on a regular basis. So there!

:0)

Plus it goes on outside the bedroom as well...he takes the lead on nearly everything and I LOVE IT.

But anyway...Silly...What will your wife think the next morning about the great, rough sex you had with her? She will think its the best sex she's had in years or possibly ever.

Rock on, boys.

DanceQueen

Originally Posted By: DanceQueen

I rest my case! <bangs gavel>

You're such a sweetheart, DQ -- thanks for the support. I'm still so UN-used to this new relationship, that I keep expecting a hew and cry of feminist rage to occur whenever I bring up what's starting to work for us. And you also lend great credence to my observation that it is often the more intelligent, strong women who want this type of relationship --> they've proven themselves in the "man's" world, and can now relax and consent to what really makes them happy with their man. Bless you all!

A humorous note about erotic spanking: I tried this with my wife for the first time only recently, and on the first swing, my arm literally froze -- and the mental battle ensued. I was brought up to NEVER hit girls, and what was I about to do? to the woman I loved above all others? I must have looked like a strange statue for a few seconds there. It was only by shear force of will, and trust in my wife, that I broke through that barrier...and with good results for her ;).

<sigh> The things I do for love....

-- B.

Baggy - please go see my sex blog for more.

Silly - sorry for mini-hi-jacking. You are doing well!

DQ

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

Silly, I've got to agree on this one. Don't over analyze... Just appreciate the moment and "Just Do It". You are so much further along than I am in this regard. I'm still waiting for the come on from my wife and I have been waiting from day one (23 years). Your wife is giving you clear signals that she wants you, no need to think that one through...just say to yourself, "YES!"

Cinco

All right, I'm having one of my bitter, analytical moods right now. I've been studiously avoiding references to sex since we made love on Thursday the 2nd. She was feeling pressured, so I'm trying not to pressure her. And this afternoon she actually reached out and touched my butt when I leaned over in the kitchen. That hasn't happened in months.

But I made the mistake, tonight, of asking her whether she still feels pressured.
"Well . . . not really."
Not really? What does that mean?
"I meant no. I misspoke."
I know you better than that . . . just tell me.
"No, I misspoke. I meant no. I don't feel pressure."

On the one hand, I don't believe her.

On the other, it would madden me to be constantly second-guessed and treated like I might not be telling the truth.

On the third hand, the last time she finally admitted to feeling the pressure, it was after weeks of telling me how happy she was.

On the fourth hand, the book I'm reading right now says men think of women as liars because women contradict their past statements, but women see no contradiction because they're expressing the truth of the moment--and they express it as if it has always been that way and always will be. So if she felt happy yesterday, she expressed happiness as if she'd always been happy. If she feels pressure today, she will express that feeling as if she has always felt pressure. It's not literal truth the way a man thinks of it, but an expression of what she feels at the time.
I have to tell you, that sounds like patronizing crap to me, but it does explain a lot of behavior.

Maybe to her it feels like she just had sex four days ago, so why would I bring it up again already?
But to me it feels like she's had four days of no talk about sex at all, and any pressure should be off--but without SOME pressure from me, sex is going to be off the table permanently. She's just not interested.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the basic conflict in the advice I've gotten. At one point, people say to back off and avoid any pressure. At the other extreme, everyone says to man up and assert control of the relationship. At any given moment, it seems, one or the other does work--but the catch is that she won't tell me which works when; if I'm a "real man" I should just magically know the answer, apparently.
The answer is either to ignore her sexually or to take her roughly in the barn--choose wisely!

You know, when I was a kid, some idiot thought I might be a genius and I was invited to spend a weekend at IMSA, this creepy school for brilliant teenagers near Chicago. They didn't allow cars, they didn't play football, and they burned their own mascot in effigy at a pep rally while we were there. It was more or less a place for people who were too far beyond their peers to be able to function in a normal school. I did not enjoy my stay there. In particular, I remember my roommate. He was obsessed with Dungeons 'n Dragons. The moment we met, before I'd put down my sleeping bag, he had a puzzle for me. I was supposed to choose which of three doors in a cave to open. Two were death and one was life, and there were no markings, no differences in the doors, blah blah blah.

Basically he wanted to play a monkey dominance game by keeping me guessing at a puzzle he'd designed to be impossible. He never did explain why his choice of door was the correct one; I don't know if there was any rhyme or reason to it.

I hated that son of a bitch and his guessing game.

I don't like guessing games.

Anyway, I'll probably feel better in the morning. I'll get up early, take a walk with my wife, and we'll see. Don't read too much into my late-night rantings; I need a way to vent a little, and this is it.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

But I made the mistake, tonight, of asking her whether she still feels pressured.

Yep, you did, and here it is:

Quote:

On the one hand, I don't believe her.

On the other, it would madden me to be constantly second-guessed and treated like I might not be telling the truth.

Women tend to be very, VERY sensitive to how men respond to their expressions of feeling and emotion. They've had a lifetime of men inferring, or outright telling them, that they are emotional, irrational creatures who aren't worth listening to or taking seriously. The best thing that you can do when your wife expresses her feelings in some way, is to LISTEN to her, TRUST her to be honest with you, and ACCEPT what she is saying at face value. If you don't understand, then ask for more input, but NEVER belittle her or disbelieve her.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

But to me it feels like she's had four days of no talk about sex at all, and any pressure should be off

You set a nice trap for both her and yourself, Bear. Note that ANY response she gave other than a validation of YOUR feelings that 'the pressure was off' was going to make you feel defensive and exasperated -- and it did.

Her initial response of "Well . . . not really," was an HONEST expression of how she was feeling. On the one hand, you had a good time last Thursday, and had a good weekend following that. On the other hand, she KNOWS that the clock is ticking and that you're slowly becoming sexually pent up. She knows you as well as you know her. So while you have been deliberately avoiding any overt pressure, it's still there, hanging between the two of you. It's almost impossible to avoid at this stage in your SSM recovery.

Quote:

--but without SOME pressure from me, sex is going to be off the table permanently. She's just not interested.

You both have a lot of TRUST to rebuild with regard to your sexual relationship. She has to learn to trust that your physical desires are an expression of your love for her, specifically, and not just a 'rutting' urge. You have to trust that your wife is, indeed, still a sexy and sexually interested woman, and not just an austere schoolmarm. Give it time -- you're both making good progress.

Quote:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the basic conflict in the advice I've gotten. At one point, people say to back off and avoid any pressure. At the other extreme, everyone says to man up and assert control of the relationship. At any given moment, it seems, one or the other does work--but the catch is that she won't tell me which works when; if I'm a "real man" I should just magically know the answer, apparently. The answer is either to ignore her sexually or to take her roughly in the barn--choose wisely!

In this context, "Pressure" means that you have placed the burden for your own sexual happiness on her shoulders. It is anything that you do to place control of the sexual relationship into her hands, and then you sit there like a dog waiting expectantly (or frustratingly) for a handout. First, this puppy-dog-mode is a very unattractive mode for you to be in, and is a turn-off for her. Second, if she is indeed a sexual submission, she will HATE having that control placed into her hands, which is another turn-off.

Instead, your taking control of and leading the sexual relationship will first mean patience on your part -- just accept that, for now, the sexual frequency won't be what you want it to be. You can't go from 10% to 100% in one step. But when you do feel that the time is right, it will also mean taking a risk and romancing/seducing your wife, rather than just giving her "the look" at 11 PM. In other words, you have to take responsibility, you have to take the risk, and you have to remove the burden for making yourself happy from her shoulders and place it on your own.

Your wife isn't off the hook entirely here: she has to learn to take Michele's advice and Just Do It! when you take the risk and attempt to seduce her -- especially in the beginning when such overtures feel rather awkward to the both of you. You BOTH need a string of successes in order to gain confidence and build a new pattern of interaction.

You could argue that this is still a form of pressure: pressure to respond positively to your seduction. But that kind of pressure is far less severe than the kind where you've placed all responsibility and control of the situation into her hands. In other words, we are encouraging you BOTH to share the risk and share in the pressure. You take the risk and seduce her, and she takes the risk and responds positively.

So we really haven't given you conflicting advice. We just haven't explained it well enough.

-- B.

A note of encouragement, Bear;

You really are doing fine and making sure progress at improving your relationship. I'm impressed.

You've been posting to this thread for three weeks --> just 3 weeks. In looking it over, I feel like I've turned a fire hose on you and yelled "Drink up, kid!," expecting you to soak up in a couple of weeks what it has taken me literally MONTHS to figure out.

Along the way, I've certainly had my moments where I wanted to throw a self-help book across the room and stomp about singing "Why Can't a Woman be More Like a Man?" (from My Fair Lady) to my puzzled German Shepherd. So I can't blame you for your own moments of analytical exasperation -- they go with the process.

So, hang in there. You guys are making progress -- keep at it!

-- B.

Thank you. This might make me a puppy dog, but I think I needed somebody to tell me whether I'm really as terrible a guy as she seems to think sometimes.

(LONG ranting raving venting message deleted. Felt good to type it, though.)

I got rid of a long, angry rant here. I know that's not doing me any good, but I'm frustrated and it's hard not to get angry. I'd just gotten off the phone with my wife a few minutes before I wrote it, and I knew as I finished it that it wasn't really fair. Last night I took the twins to a club meeting two hours away and we got back late. She had a quiet night with the baby. Today she took the twins to their camps and the baby to the zoo. She was trying to get the boys out the door, and I was changing diapers, feeding the baby, cleaning out the car, packing up the stroller, making her coffee, whatever I could to help. She swears by this "love language" theory, and she says mine is touch and hers is acts of service. Well, I've been doing acts of service for years and she's never cared much, but whatever. Anyway, I come back in from cleaning out the car with an armful of bags of cups, papers, etc to throw away, and her only comment is "Hey, make sure the dishes get done today."
I told her I'd planned on it (which was true), but I was already staying home to work hard on the house, and I didn't like being left with orders. She wasn't very happy with that, but she had to go.

Anyway, later on the phone, she told me she thought she'd been doing me a favor by taking the kids so I could work on the house. I told her that had nothing to do with it--I just didn't like being ordered to do the dishes while she headed out to picnic at the zoo with the baby, especially since she couldn't even bother to say thanks for all the things I did instead of taking a shower so she could make it out the door on time.
She apologized and told me she was grateful for what I'd done. I guess I should be happy that we talked about it. I don't know.

I'm sure this means I was being a puppy and looking for a pat on the head. Maybe I was. I don't see it that way. I wasn't asking for anything in return; I just reached a point where the sheer ingratitude was too much.

Another disheartening thing I've noticed is that those passionate kisses have dried up again. That didn't last long. I try, but it's clear that she's not interested. Whether that means she was faking before or something changed, I don't know. Maybe all she really cared about was the novelty of responding, but whatever it was, it's gone now. She's back to her old ways.

Bagheera, when you say any response other than validation would make me feel exasperated . . . tell me if I'm kidding myself here. I really think that if she could find it in herself to say, "Since you asked, I do feel pressured, but if you could change this and this, I wouldn't" and actually follow through when I follow through, I don't think that would be exasperating. I think it was her attempt to play both sides and avoid giving me an answer that I found so frustrating.

Maybe she can't do that, but I think it would work.

Silly,

Have you heard this old joke?

A man finds a genie in a bottle. The genie only grants one wish. The man thought long and hard and decided that his wish would be for a bridge to be built between California and Hawaii, as he had always wanted to visit but was afraid to fly.

The genie told him, "well this can be accomplished, but there would be serious ecological effects by putting a bridge that long throughout the ocean. Do you think you could pick another wish that would not have such negative side effects?"

The man thought for a moment, and then said "ok well then my back up wish would be that I could really, truly understand women and how they think".

The genie said "how many lanes wide would you like that bridge?"

- - - -

I am sure this doesn't help you and possibly makes you grumpy (or as my little nephew says "gwumpy").

But hopefully it at least made you smile.

Silly, I have given up trying to give you advice because I fear you just see me like the enemy in some ways (plus I know I come across and too aggressive and know-it-all and that turns a lot of people off). But I am still reading and silently rooting for you to get this thing turned around. Bagheera is your best bet for advice.

Hang in there, and how wide do you want that bridge?

DQ

I think you are doing well ~SB.
You need to slooooooooooooooow down and remember this will take time.

It is like when you are learning to dance "ballroom" dancing.
You will step on eachothers feet, you might trip one another ..unintentionally and then after months and months of grueling practice.... you Dance beautifully and gracefully.

Does that metaphor help you see?

YOu two are doing great .... listen to Bagheera.... his advice is right on the money.... and get a journal or just keep venting here but also make a running list of what works and what doesnt...... I too at times would just want to give up , throw my hands up , hurry the process,,,,

What about what you are doing for you?
I check on you now and again and every time I do you are doing more for her.

When was the last time she did something for you?
And even better cause we cant control what others do when was the last time silly old bear did something for silly old bear?

Join a gym...
Ride a bike..
go for a run...

Have a nite out with the guys?
Something..... it seems you are losing yourself more than finding yourself at times....

you are an awesome H from what you post here and a great Dad too.... now what about you?
Take care sweetie...
Ali

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

(LONG ranting raving venting message deleted. Felt good to type it, though.)

Ha! I got to read it anyway...it came across in my email notifications. $\:\)$

Quote:

She told me she thought she'd been doing me a favor by taking the kids so I could work on the house. I told her that had nothing to do with it--I just didn't like being ordered to do the dishes while she headed out to picnic at the zoo with the baby, especially since she couldn't even bother to say thanks for all the things I did instead of taking a shower so she could make it out the door on time. She apologized and told me she was grateful for what I'd done. I guess I should be happy that we talked about it. I don't know.

Bear, you have a perfect right to stand up for yourself, and not just be taken for granted or ordered about. KEEP AT IT! No, she's not going to like it, but she'll get over it and respect you all the more for it.

I'm going to keep encouraging you to get beyond your 'Nice Guy Syndrome' by

(1) carving out your own life and agenda,
(2) taking charge and being the 'Man' of the house,
(3) serving your wife and family for YOUR own gratification, and not expecting anything else in return, and
(4) taking charge of your own sex-life.

You've already laid out your own GAL program, so (1) is going well. Don't let it slip!

As for (2), you already know that she has a tendency to act like her mother, and her school-teacher job reinforces that tendency. Don't let her get away with it. It may mean a few angry confrontations before she gets the message, but in the long run, she'll find you all the more sexually attractive and deserving of respect. Stand firm, don't let her dominate you, and be your own man.

Number (3) is a hard one to change. The old 'Nice Guy' covert-contract bit is a really difficult habit to break. "I'm doing this, and this, and this for you; so surely you owe me something in return" --> this doesn't work. The more you can find your own satisfaction in such service, the better -- let it be an expression of your love, and an end in itself.

And finally number (4). I hear and understand what you're saying. Not three months ago, I was telling our therapist how I felt like my own wife was still in control of our sex-life: she maintained the power, she was the 'gate-keeper,' and she set the pace. Her response? She said that she felt like -> I <- was the one in charge, the one setting the pace, and that she was like a horse out in front of the chariot, with my reins constant slapping her backside to go faster. I'd be willing to guess that you and your wife have a similar dynamic going on right now.

So take a deep breath (or ten), and relax some. I know all too well how bloody confusing the male-female dynamic can be, especially in dealing with a strong woman who is, at heart, a sexual submissive. As Alimari says, slooooow dooooown, and take things one day at a time.

If it helps at all, I've felt exactly as you are right now: You're being told by your wife (and us) to let up on the 'pressure' you wife feels, while at the same time, you're scared to death that if you do, she'll say "Cool, no more sex, EVER!" You're being told to take charge and initiate sex in a firm, seductive way, while YOU'RE the one who's been rejected and shot down by her repeatedly over the past several years -- what's fair about that? She gets the easy part, kicking back and saying "yay" or "nay."

The truth is, none of this is easy. Changing a long-standing bad relationship is hard effing work. It takes months, with many regressions, failures, and sleepless nights along the way. But it CAN be done, and YOU can do it.

Best regards,

Bagheera

Thank you all. None of you are the enemy, believe me. I can disagree with anyone without having to be her enemy.

So she came home all flustered and worn out. Frankly, I was hot and tired, too. But I did do one smart thing (other than the dishes) by lighting the charcoal grill, figuring we'd have supper. It turned out that she'd come home starving, so she was delighted. "You read my mind!" she said.

Later I was carrying a bunch of stuff inside through the sliding door. This can get complicated since we only have the dogs about halfway trained not to bolt through the door, and my hands were full. I was through the door and closing it when she called out "Wait!"
So I waited for her, holding the door open about six inches, my hands full, holding the dogs back with my foot. She got up and padded over, then stood there.
"Are you coming through?" I grunted.
"No, I was just coming to help!" she said brightly.

I couldn't help but laugh. I shut the door and went on my way. What did she think she was going to help me do? I was done and on my way. I wasn't mad, I just noticed how silly the whole thing was. I put everything down and went back, and she was coming through the door. She apologized.
"You want to help? Here's how you can help me." I said. I pulled her in and gave her my best effort at a passionate kiss, and she kissed me right back.

Sometimes I think she's off reading these threads somewhere and plotting to make me eat my words each time I complain about something.

It's official. She reads the threads, and she does the opposite of whatever I complain about.

Congrats! We keep telling you that you're doing well and are on the right track -- keep at it!

One hint, however: come tell us the *next morning* (rather than 1:43 AM). Naked-cuddling-throughout-the-night is one of the nicest benefits of making love. At least it is for a kinesthetic like myself, and even if you're not one, the women generally LOVE IT.

So snuggle up, spoon, and stay in bed! We'll be here.

-- B.

Silly do you mean she literally is reading the threads? You talked to her about that and she said she does?

If that is the case....WELCOME Mrs. Silly Old Bear. I hope you will not be offended at anything you read!

DQ

No, the timing just makes it seem that way. I think I'd like her to read all this, but I don't think she feels ready. She knows I post here and my username, so if she wants to read it, it's here.

Bagheera, I like to cuddle, but she doesn't do that all night. We did get to snuggle for a long time, but eventually she got up, put on the comfortable PJ's and came back to go to sleep. I really don't mind this; I just put an arm around her and go to sleep, too.

Later on, the baby woke up, and I needed the restroom, so I got up and took care of him. And stopped at the computer to admit I was wrong.

Now, last night was pretty special, and I did NOT do the analysis this time. I just went with it. It was wonderful. I was pretty forceful, and she loved it. I will say this for being forceful: she knows I love it when she gives me oral, and I love giving it to her. But we've been way out of balance in that way for years; I would do it for her any time she would let me, including at times when intercourse wasn't going to happen. She would give me oral maybe once a year, and during our worst dry spell, not that often. Looking back, I realize I only got it when I asked for it, and I almost never asked for it. I figured that she knew I wanted it, so if she didn't do it, it must be because it disgusted her or she resented it. Frankly, even when she did it, it wasn't always very good.

Well, last week when we had our little breakthrough, I didn't ask. I told her to do it. She was . . . not in a position to resist. It scared me to death; I was sure she was going to burst into tears and decide she hated me at any moment. But the thing is, she not only complied, she really worked at it. It was obvious that she was enjoying herself. I know I was certainly enjoying herself! She was wild, and she made me feel wild. There was nothing grudging or sad about it.
So I did the same thing last night, although this time I just plain told her to do it, nothing so elaborate. Same results. So I guess I'm starting to believe that she really does want to follow my lead, at least in the bedroom.
And actually, there was a little glimmer of her own personality coming out near the end, so I didn't feel like I dominated absolutely everything. I'd had my O and she hadn't had hers yet, and I started to do something I knew she would like. She stopped me and told me what she wanted me to do. Man, was that great. She didn't give me the exact details, but that was OK--I filled 'em in and made it work, and all she had to do was relax and enjoy it. It was fantastic. At the end, I cleared off the bed and we lay together in a T with her head on my chest, talking.

Today I made a joke about a spanking tonight, and she giggled, but she told me "I might need a couple of nights off."

I told her I'd talk to her about it again on Monday. I hope that's going to be OK; she seemed satisfied. It doesn't mean I expect sex on Monday, just that I won't be bringing the subject up before then.

We've got to get up at about 2:00 in the morning to get on the road tomorrow anyway, and then we're staying with one of her old friends on Friday night, so that's two busy days when there won't be opportunities anyway.

And so Silly...can I hear a "wow you guys were right" over there?

Yeah, I thought so.

:0)

Keep up the good work.

DQ

Nobody likes a gloater, DQ.

$\:\)$

Four points of warning for ya, mate:

First: go slowly and gradually into uncharted territory, and keep the sexual frequency down to a slow pace initially. I know you've been chomping at the bit for years...I was too...but moving too fast may cause the entire train to derail.

Second: in dealing with a sexual submissive, DO NOT expect her to be able to spell out what she does and does not want you to do to her, what she will and won't allow, and especially what she fantasize about. She may get very uncomfortable, very fast, and balk at nearly everything you suggest.

I know from the man's perspective, it makes perfect sense to discuss all this openly and directly ahead of time. It would make life a lot easier. But from her perspective, she's dealing with the Nice Girl's Don't syndrome, and perhaps in a big way. If, during sex, you make her do something, if you make her submit to your control, then it's alright, and she can truly enjoy it. But if you ask her to talk about it openly before hand, all the red flags go up in her mind: I shouldn't be thinking about this, I shouldn't be talking about this, and I certainly shouldn't be wanting it to happen to me!

Sometimes, the best you might get are hints -- like that giggle you got at the mention of spanking. She didn't shriek, object, or look aghast. I would personally let it go at that: as something to try when the time seems right.

At other times you might get an indirect answer and a 'look.' Since you brought up fellatio, I'll share an example there. My wife and I both love fellatio, and with the right mood build-up it can be pretty 'rough and raunchy' these days. I'll never understand the female 'rush' that goes along with this, but I don't let her puke and we have a great time.

Back in my 'gentleman in bed' days, however, I was pretty timid about fellatio. I considered it as her gift to me, I never directed, I never touched her head, and I never came in her mouth -- this last goes to an experience where she tried to swallow in the first year of our marriage once, and that once was enough. Over the last several months of our improving relationship, it became apparent that she wanted more from the experience, and wanted me to take more control: nothing was ever said verbally, just body motions and actions. During a 'sex talk' one afternoon, I asked about swallowing, and in response I got this eye-rolling look and all she could say was "I don't know...you'll just have to try it." So I did, and we haven't looked back (although I usually want to save my orgasm for other things on most nights).

The point is, her indirect answer was typical of the sexual sub: an implied --> "YOU take control, use me for your pleasure, and I'll probably love it." Implied, but not spelled out. I know that this detective game will probably frustrate you, but you'll get used to it, and even find it endearing, in a mysterious, feminine sort of way. $;\)$

Third: Because of the her (probable) tendency to NOT want to talk about these things directly, make sure you set up your safe-word system for your own protection. Make sure she knows that at any time things approach a boundary for her, you'll honor it and stop the action if she uses the word.

Four: Using the marvels of the Internet, be sure to thoroughly research anything new you're thinking about trying, especially for the first time. You're the one in control and directing the action, so go into everything knowledgeably. And if things go awry and don't work (which they will sometimes), both of you need to have a sense of humor and be able to laugh at yourselves, or at the very least, be forgiving of goofs or inadvertent hurts.

Have fun and play.

-- B.

It's been a great weekend so far. Exhausting, but great. The big political event went off without a hitch. We haven't stopped running yet, but at least we're home now.

Did I mention exhausted?

I'm reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I do see myself in there.

I'll have more to say later. Right now I have some stuff to get done.

Greetings Bear,

You may, or may not, find this post applicable to your wife and your situation. We've enough parallels to make it worth pointing out to you.

Best regards,

-- B.

Thanks, Baggy. I had some computer issues that kept me away earlier in the week. I thought two of the points were interesting, but not too controversial for me. The part about abuse in childhood being recreated so the victim can enjoy it in a controlled way . . . . I would not have thought of that in a million years, and I would have done just what you did, and run into the same wall.

It was the first one that pulled me up short.

Originally Posted By: Bagheera

(1) Nice Girls Don't (desire or enjoy sex)

This was posted as one of three things to keep in mind about sexually submissive women, that often their desire to be dominated is a way to avoid any responsibility for desiring sex, since their upbringing or some other cause has left them with the belief that sex is bad and they would be wrong to desire it.

This is one of the things that worries me the most about the "just go with it, you found what she likes" school. If it's as simple as "she likes to be told what to do in bed, and maybe get her hair pulled a little" then fine, I can do that. Who am I kidding? I LOVE doing that.
But (and maybe my Nice Guy Syndrome is acting up) I worry. I love doing it, she loves doing it, but does that make it a good idea? Fundamentally, her "Nice Girls Don't" attitude is unhealthy and untrue. By dominating her this way, I'm basically saying to her "You're right; you'd be a slut if you were making love to your husband, but you're being raped by a swashbuckling browncoat, so you might as well lie back and think of England." That can't be healthy, can it? If we do that for 20 years, how much cognitive dissonance is going to build up in her mind, and what will it do to her?
Or maybe I'm saying "You're right, sex is filthy, but I'm really the filthy one, because I want sex and you don't." This also doesn't seem particularly healthy. How does she stay in love with the guy who forces immorality on her, even if she enjoys the immoral filth at the moment it's happening? Do I really want to be the scapegoat?

I'm not married to any of this. These are just ideas that I'd like everyone to react to. They didn't seem to fit in the thread where Bagheera posted the original comments. Everybody who's still responding to what I say, tell me what you think, please.

So last night, I messed up, but I think I saved it. I got busy working on the house (and the internet, honestly) and didn't go to bed. Later, my wife came down to use the bathroom and walked by in her little blue robe with a little red teddy underneath. That's always been her main way of signaling that it's OK to make love--she goes to bed wearing something sexy. The problem with that method is that if I'm not in the room, I can't actually tell what she's wearing.
Anyway, I hopped into the shower and went upstairs to find her asleep. I snuggled up and went to sleep, and when she woke up later on, we made love--and it was great.
I wanted to ask her a million questions afterward, but I didn't. We snuggled in and cuddled until we fell asleep.

I'm still dominating everything in bed, and she still seems to love it. The one thing I still wondered about was fellatio. I've gotten more oral sex, more enthusiastically, in the last three weeks than I'd gotten in five years previously. I had decided, back then, that it was just something she didn't enjoy doing and wasn't willing to do for me. (Because she didn't love me enough, or wasn't attracted enough, or whatever self-pitying reason I had that day.)

When I made the choice to take the lead and be in charge, I decided to bring the topic up again. It just about killed me to do it, but I didn't ask--I told her to do it, and it was clear it wasn't a request. It was an order. She responded, and it was better than I'd dared hope. She was enthusiastic, she really seemed to be enjoying herself, and she drove me wild. Since then we've done it twice more, more or less the same way--I tell her to do it, she does it with alarming alacrity, and a good time is had by all.

Only this morning I asked her whether she was starting to enjoy fellatio. I honestly thought she had discovered that when she was pushed, she enjoyed the act that had been no fun when I was asking (or just hoping, as I often have in our marriage) "nicely."
Nope.

She told me she really doesn't enjoy it, and she's not sure why. She said she likes the fact that I enjoy it and it makes me happy. Now, the question, I admit, could be seen as manipulative--there was clearly an answer I was hoping to get. I hoped she would say "Yeah, I do kinda like it now."

But I really felt good about her honesty. She told me the truth. She didn't act like she was afraid of me or I was some beast she had to lie to and placate. And from reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy," I realize I have a real problem accepting a gift from anyone. I don't always feel like I deserve a gift. There was some talk about this--lovers giving each other gifts by doing things one enjoys more than the other--but I wasn't really in a position to understand what she was really talking about. It's not the giving of gifts that's hard for me, it's accepting a gift graciously.

So I thanked her for telling me the truth, and I thanked her for making me so happy. We cuddled for awhile longer, and it was really, really good.

Now I've got to go get some work done before I laze the day away.

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

It was the first one that pulled me up short.

Originally Posted By: Bagheera

(1) Nice Girls Don't (desire or enjoy sex)

I actually think that of the three 'layers' to this sexual archetype that I mentioned, number (2) applies to you the most. You've already mentioned your wife's weak, alcoholic father and strong domineering mother, and how your wife feels like she has been recreating this situation with you.

But, regarding your concern:

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

But (and maybe my Nice Guy Syndrome is acting up) I worry. I love doing it, she loves doing it, but does that make it a good idea? Fundamentally, her "Nice Girls Don't" attitude is unhealthy and untrue. By dominating her this way, I'm basically saying to her "You're right...That can't be healthy, can it? If we do that for 20 years, how much cognitive dissonance is going to build up in her mind, and what will it do to her?

When I first started to figure out what my wife needed from me sexually, I was initially rather alarmed and taken aback myself. I doubted whether I would be able to be the dominating partner that she really needed and wanted in the bedroom. So I do understand where you are coming from here -- I've been there.

I'm no psychologist, and I won't pretend to be one for you: I'll just report what our couples/individual counselor and sex therapist told me when I went over my concerns with him...in great detail.

My wife is not, nor has ever been promiscuous, so she's not placing herself in danger with other partners, bringing home any diseases, or jeopardizing our relationship. There is only one man on this Earth that she would ever surrender herself to sexually: ME. By the same token, I am not promiscuous in any way, and there is only one woman on this Earth that I would ever 'take' forcefully and dominate: my wife. We love each other, are deeply committed to each other, and are exclusively monogamous. I have her full consent to 'take' her, and we have an established system of trust between us: I trust her to let me know if I ever make her overly uncomfortable either physically or mentally; and she trusts me to stay in complete control, monitor her safety, and stop immediately if she gives the safe-word.

Under these conditions of love and trust, our therapist encourages us to engage in whatever we want to engage in, and as long as we BOTH enjoy it, it's alright and healthy for us and our relationship. He sees great potential for us to have a vibrant and fulfilling sex life, enjoying everything from the 'light' (vanilla) variety to the 'dark' (kinky / rough) variety.

So when you wrote:

Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear

If it's as simple as "she likes to be told what to do in bed, and maybe get her hair pulled a little" then fine, I can do that. Who am I kidding? I LOVE doing that.

You were right. It IS as simple as that: you're finding out what she loves and turns her on, and if you love it and it turns YOU on too, then go for it.

Recall that I said that pathogenic beliefs regarding sex generally involve guilt and shame that we've carried with us since childhood. We all have them, and no one chooses them voluntarily. Our sexual desires and fantasies help us to overcome these sources of guilt and shame, and we usually never even know why they work for us -- we just know that THIS turns us on, while THAT doesn't. By engaging in the kind of sex that really turns your wife on and which matches her desires and fantasies, you are helping her to *overcome* those old feelings of guilt and shame, and over time, she will slowly build a revised paradigm where the guilt and shame are lessened. If she's regularly enjoying herself with the husband who loves her, then you're helping her to build a new, positive association with sex and counteract the old, negative ones. So you're helping her, not hurting her, Bear.

The other thing that you are dealing with right now is YOUR OWN Nice Boys Don't (force themselves on women) pathogenic belief. This means that you have your own sense of guilt to deal with here, and it's tempting to find something wrong with the fact that she loves it when you take her, and so do YOU. I know this from my own experience too. The ONLY thing that permits me to enjoy myself, guilt free, is the system of trust that my wife and I have established, and the research that I have done to understand where she is coming from. I have to trust that I am doing the right thing, that she wants me to dominate her, and that she's loving it when it happens. And so far, we've both enjoyed the hell out of it -- it works.

One final note on the fellatio bit: you're right in that you shouldn't have asked. As a sexual submissive, it may be nearly impossible for her to admit that she enjoyed it, even a little bit -- automatic guilt. However, since you asked, you have to take her at her word. Keep this in mind, though: as a sexual submissive, a large fraction of her enjoyment during sex will come from YOUR enjoyment -- your pleasure becomes her pleasure. So even if she doesn't personally really like it, she's still getting a turn on and a huge kick from pleasuring YOU. And given time, she may grow to like it for herself, even if she won't admit that to you. So if I were you, I would not suddenly turn all hesitant about it or feel guilty about it -- just do as comes naturally, anyway. The more you think and analyze and worry, the less enjoyment you BOTH will get out of the experience.

Best regards,

Bagheera

Quote:

The other thing that you are dealing with right now is YOUR OWN Nice Boys Don't (force themselves on women) pathogenic belief. This means that you have your own sense of guilt to deal with here, and it's tempting to find something wrong with the fact that she loves it when you take her, and so do YOU.

That's exactly what runs through my head.

I gave myself a zero for the Fellatio Inquisition. I figure it was bad to ask, but it was good to react well, and to thank her. And I will go forward as you advised, because hey, she has a safe word, right? She can stop the train any time she wants to get off. I'm just playing a role.

Zer gut!

Just don't forget to form a large repertoire of activities you can choose from, and mix in some 'light' nights with the 'dark' nights. You're in control, you call the shots, so start letting your OWN fantasies play a role here. Maintain a sense of variety and mystery for her: what is he going to do this time?

Too much of the same thing always gets boring, so consider these new facets to your sex life as opening up an entire spectrum of thngs that you can engage in --> eventually including some things that you probably thought your wife would never permit or enjoy. Small steps are advised, of course, moving gradually into new areas: you've got years of exploration ahead of you to enjoy.

-- B.

Quote:

If she's regularly enjoying herself with the husband who loves her, then you're helping her to build a new, positive association with sex and counteract the old, negative ones. So you're helping her, not hurting her, Bear

Brilliant!

Hey Bear .. any advice for me?

I am already over it... just wondered if you have any thoughts ?
$;\)$

Check your thread. It's not much, but it's what I think.

$;\)$
Gracias~

So tonight we had no big kids, just the baby. The twins are with my parents at an antique show (I know what you're thinking, but they love it. Dad specializes in antiques that incorporate fire, wheels, iron, explosions . . . )

We decided to go into the big town. She wanted to go to the mall, so we walked around there for awhile. We took the baby to the playground, lazed around the bookstore, stuff like that. When we left, we were hungry, so I went looking for a new Mexican restaurant I'd heard about--and it was as good as advertised. I told her how glad I am that we've been making changes, and how lucky I felt that she was willing to change with me.

I ended up telling her about a few of the stories I've read about here, including Alimari's.
"If you acted like that guy, I'd just leave you."
"Yeah, understood."

So we keep talking it over and I tell her about AliMari's question in "Is Sex a Miracle?" She is adamant that Alimari should confront her husband and then leave him.
"She's not being paranoid. He proved he can't be trusted." she said.
"I know, that's what I said, too, but she's trying to trust him more and put it behind her. I don't know how she does it." I replied.
"Well, that's not paranoid. Paranoid is worrying because your husband is going on a trip with some woman he's been talking about for years. Ha ha!"

Hmm. That was her way of bringing something up without bringing it up. You see, I recently won a drawing. About a dozen people who write about guns and shooting on the errornets were chosen to go to a famous shooting school and study with a champion pistol shooter for free. This is a big deal for me, though I recognize that most people don't see what all the fuss is about. For a shooter, this is like winning a trip to Chicago to have Brian Urlacher teach you to read an offense, or a trip to Washington so Michael Jordan can give you tips on your jump shot for a weekend. It's pretty cool. I expect to shoot not only more better, but also more fastly by the end of the weekend.

Anyway, most of the group have never met in person, but it's a fairly small community writing about these issues online, and most of us are at least familiar with each others' writing. One of the group is a woman I've known online for awhile but never met. There's never been any thought of romance, but she's fun to talk to--she's got a hojillion old guns, a bajillion old computers, and she's basically a professional slacker. I've told my wife before, I don't want to date this woman, I want to be her. I just want a hojillion antique rifles and a motorcycle. $\:\)$

Anyway, that's the thing that made my wife jealous. And right or wrong, I enjoyed that she was a little jealous. I wanted to reassure her that there was no rational reason to worry--I am NOT going to cheat on her, ever--but I also wanted to tell her that I was touched. First, because it feels good that she feels possessive; for years, and until VERY recently, I've told myself that she'd probably be happier if I went out and got sex from someone else and quit bothering her, and that's a bleak way to live.
And second, because I know it was hard for her to admit to these feelings, and even though she did it indirectly, she did it honestly. She told me the truth. She didn't have to say anything, but the trip is a month away and then I'd be gone for five days, and I just breathe a sigh of relief knowing that this is out in the open now and we can talk about it.

Does that make any sense? No, I'm not going to cheat on you, but it kinda makes me feel good that you're thinking about it and it bothers you?
It's not that I want her to be unhappy, I just like knowing that she would care.

Glad I could help!!!!!!!

Take care...
~Ali

Hmm. Well, sex has been a non-issue for the last few days. I'm working on installing central air in our ancient money pit, but for now, only our bedroom has AC. It's been hotter'n'dammit here lately, and we've had the entire family in the bedroom at night. During the day it's too hot to think about sex without melting. Maybe you could manage it under a cold shower, but that's about it.

I've been working on more GAL stuff. I've gotten a little more active over on the No More Mr. Nice Guy online support group, and another member and I are going to try to start a "real" group in our general geographic area. One of the warning signs for "Nice Guy Syndrome" is a man with no male friends. Well, I had guy friends before I got married, but that coincided with moving back to my home town after four years of college. My college friends weren't there, and my high school friends were gone for the most part, too. I got so wrapped up in my wife and my marriage that I just didn't go out and make new friends. Now my good friends--male and female--outside my marriage are all people I've met online. Some of them I've never seen face-to-face. Part of the reason for that is that I'm a shy guy who just doesn't reach out and take the risk of making friends. Part of it is that I live in a part of the country that's more hostile than most to my main interests, so the people I meet through those hobbies tend to live elsewhere.
So now I'm going to force myself to take a look around and really talk to people. We'll see how that goes.

My wife and I had a good talk the other night about where we are now and how much progress we've made. I was trying to tell her--clumsily--that I understood how much she's been working with me on our marriage and I appreciated it. We ended up talking about a lot of things. She still seems surprised every time I talk about how much it hurt when she was rejecting me and I didn't understand. It's as if we've never talked about it before.

I'm starting to wonder what will happen when the new school year starts. I know she's dreading it. I wish she'd just leave; I don't think she'd be out of work for long. Our field is very short of people locally, and nobody can afford to treat us the way she's being treated. But I don't want to push her to solve it my way.

It's been over a week since I've written. Things have been going well for the most part. I've gotten to do some more GAL stuff, mostly shooting. I've been practicing for my trip this month by shooting in competition, which has been a lot of fun. I shoot near the school where I work, so I think during the school year it will actually be easier to get to the weekly match after work. I've been working out more, too.

I've had some good conversations with my wife, but I want to talk about one I had right about the time of my last post. This illustrates, to me, how far we'd fallen with me stepping back and trying to be the "Nice Guy" and let her lead, and her stepping forward to take over our life completely. She was going to buy me a car.
Not, like, buy me a gift. She knew I wanted a different car because I hate the POS I'm driving at the moment. It was her dream car, and when we got married she'd never been allowed to choose her own car. Her parents had always told her what to drive. She was driving a blowoff blue Chevy Celebrity at the time, and it had been through three accidents and had the muffler held on with a coat hanger for five years at that point. So we went looking and got her dream car, a red '95 Camaro with t-tops, a V6 and an automatic transmission (because if you can't be comfortable, you should at least be slow.) I drove my ancient caddy and then an ailing Buick I'd bought from my parents for the next few years. The plan had been that we would save up and the next big car purchase would be for me. Well, the kids came along and then the baby was coming, and we had to have a van. So we went out and bought the newest car either of us has ever driven, a Ford minivan. The van did improve our quality of life a bunch, but now there was no money for anything else and I got rear-ended by a lady with a new car and no insurance. So today, she's got the van and I've got that POS Camaro that's now breaking faster than I can fix it.

She knows, she says, that I want "a Volvo." She can't remember what kind, but she figures a Volvo is a Volvo. So she was going to go out and buy one, since I was just taking way too long. Of course, I was taking so long because we don't have the money to do this without selling the Camaro, but what does that matter? And of course, she was liable to come home with something I wouldn't want to drive, but again, who cares? She says she finds car shopping a hassle and she'd be glad if someone came along and just did it for her. Huh? You want someone to come along and spend thousands of dollars of your money on something you have to spend 6 hours a week in, and you don't want them to consult you?
"Were you at least going to say something to me about this, or were you just going to go do it without even mentioning it?" I asked. The look on her face told me everything. To her credit, she at least had the grace to look sheepish.

So that's how far we've gone down that road. She had apparently decided that she was in charge, I had no say in anything, and that must be how I liked it. Needless to say, it has been made clear that she will NOT go out and buy a car unless she wants to drive it-and I'll be selling the van if that happens.

It's not like I'm being irresponsible here. I'm looking at Volvos around ten years old that are in a price range we can afford, paying cash we have in the bank. Yeah, I like the sportier models, but you're still talking about four-door sedans--the safest in the world, and with good mileage--that won't require a loan. I admit I'm fascinated by the engineering--I love a good gizmo, and a turbocharged inline 5-cylinder is right up there. But it's still a good choice for us, and what's more, it's my choice.

Anyway, we had two good breakthroughs in the sex department. First, we had a moment I didn't enjoy. We'd been cuddling on the bed late in the afternoon, and there'd been some kissing and some snuggling, and I moved my hand to her breast. She brushed it off as if it were a spider.
"What's wrong?"
"I just don't want to be touched there."
"OK, I won't, but why? I thought you were having fun."
"I was, but . . . it's daylight out, and . . . ."
"It's what?"
"You know what I mean. I just, with the way I look . . . ."

I let this go because I could see myself turning it into an argument. I sort of knew what she meant--I know she's bothered by being overweight, and she's made comments before now about her breasts sagging since the baby was born. She used to wear a naughty nightie to bed when she wanted to make love; now she often wears one of the nighties, but with her bra underneath. But I wasn't planning on stripping her naked and taking photos in sunlight. I just thought it would be nice to touch her breasts, because, you know, breasts.

I waited until later, when she was relaxed, and broached the subject again. I asked her what the daylight had to do with it--did she think I didn't find her body beautiful, or was she the one insulting my woman? She admitted that it was her mental issue. I told her I'd like to touch her breasts, and I promised nothing I would do would embarrass her. She agreed to that, and I kissed her and gently cupped and fondled her breasts through her shirt and bra. She was tense at first, but she relaxed and then grew obviously aroused, kissing me passionately. I told her how much I loved her and how much she excited me, and that we could take pleasure in each other.
I told her I wasn't trying to force her into doing anything she didn't want to do in the daylight, and that every little sexual touch didn't have to be an intercourse early warning sign. I admit, I have a hard time stopping once I start, but I'm capable of it. She has always had this sense that one does not simply caress, lick, suck or otherwise stimulate one's partner unless there will be a By God Penis inserted into a By God Vagina In An Approved Manner With All Due Dispatch. It's always been a stumbling block; she wants to wait to have sex until she's in the mood, but she won't do anything to get into the mood unless she's ready to have sex. Catch-22.

Now the good news: I told her I wasn't pushing her to do anything, but I wanted to make love to her that night. She said, and I quote, "Okay."

That may not seem like much to some of you, but in my house, it used to be that "no" meant "no," while "maybe" meant "no," and "yes" meant "maybe." There was no real yes. If she decided to make love (and it was always she; it was understood that I did not have the power or the right to initiate sex) then she would either go to bed in sexy lingerie or invite me to the shower. That was it. If one of those things hadn't happened, I could ask, but it was a waste of time.

From there, after the divorce ultimatum and after she read most of SSM, we eventually progressed to the point where I was getting genuine "maybes." In other words, she would say "maybe" and that actually meant "maybe." It was no guarantee, but I no longer automatically translated "maybe" as no. To be honest, I was pretty happy with "maybe." It's asking a lot for someone to say "Yes, I will be in the mood in six hours and we will have sex."

Well, that day, she said, "Okay." I said:
"Okay? Okay as in yes?"
"Yeah . . . why not? Just do it, right?"
"Well, yeah, but you have no idea what that means to me. I can't believe you said that. Are you freaking out?"
"Um, a little! It's scary. I don't know what's going to happen. But I need to get over it."
"OK, well, I don't know if this is smart, but here's what we'll do: I am SO happy that you just said yes to me. But tonight, if you need to say no, I promise I won't get mad. I'll wrap my arms around you and kiss you goodnight and we'll go to sleep. Of course, then you'll miss out on agonizing levels of pleasure, but it's your pick."

And that's what we did. I don't know if that was the right thing to do--maybe my Nice Guy Syndrome came out a little there, and I had to give her an escape. But I never want to be her obligation or her chore again. Those days are over for me. And I never want her to feel like I've cleverly trapped her or manipulated her into having sex with me. I wanted to be and look confident and happy about what she'd done--but confident enough that I could take away any obligation she thought she'd taken on.

It worked from my point of view, because we made love in mind-blowing fashion. She really tries to hurt me sometimes now, biting, pinching and clawing. It's intense. It feels like she's letting loose something that used to shame her. She's still learning that she can't break me and it's OK if I feel a little pain with my pleasure. I've always had a weird relationship with pain; I like hitting and being hit, having my joints cranked and escaping, fighting off chokes . . . when I was younger, I was a 260-lb football tackle who ran the 2 mile for the track team in the spring. Daily 6-mile runs with actual long-distance runners . . . . it hurt the entire time. Nothing that happens during sex has ever come close to the kind of pain I voluntarily put myself through for other stuff.

I think that's hard for her to understand, and she's always acted like I was delicate before, to the point of avoiding pleasurable things because maybe they would hurt. She'd try to give me a back massage, but I'd hardly be able to feel it. I think she was stronger than that, but she was afraid to dig her knuckle into my back or really put her weight on her palm. But that night, she put scratches on my thigh from the knee to . . . . well, you know, the *ahem* topmost area of the thigh.

If she ever actually tries to choke me out or kicks me in the groin during sex, I think I'll set a boundary. But for now I'm enjoying the wildness.

Silly,
I'll have whatever she's having please, to go.
Thanks for stopping by earlier. Can you please visit again, I need advice on my sitch. Peace.

""You know what I mean. I just, with the way I look . . . .""

Bear,

I did NOT read your whole post, but when I got to this part, I immediately thought, "OMG, she's inhibited. Have you ever read my story, I mean the long post about what happened to me in the past and how my H reacted when I told him? If not, you should. You wife may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

Just a thought.

hugs,
poet

It's something to think about. She had some bad relationships in high school, but I don't think she was abused. I have no idea how to bring that up.

Oh, and the technical internet term for that way of reading is either "tl;dr" or "FRATS" depending on your mood. $\:\)$

It's Saturday morning and she just said yes again--for tonight--which is pretty impressive, considering that I was trying out terrible pick-up lines on her all morning. I don't know if any of you read Boobs, Injuries and Dr. Pepper but Crystal's husband tried this one on her:
"You're like a sex pinata . . . I'm gonna beat you with my stick until candy comes out!"

It didn't work on my wife.

"You're like a sex pinata . . . I'm gonna beat you with my stick until candy comes out!"

Jeeees!

I guess not, eSPECIALly if she's inhibited! Don't know whether to give you a smiley face or a cry face on that one...

poet

P.S: What does this mean?
"...and the technical internet term for that way of reading is either "tl;dr" or "FRATS" depending on your mood."

P.S.S. I wouldn't "bring it up" with her, unless and until you've got it down pat about when/where/how to do so, IMHO.

tl:dr = "too long; didn't read.
FRATS = "F*** Reading All That Sh**
$\:\)$

Other lines in the same vein that didn't work:

"You're my sex panda; I'm gonna feed you the hard bamboo."
"You're a sex octopus; I'm gonna chase you around until you squirt."
"You're a sex Pottery Barn; I'm gonna break something so I can take you home with me!"

Those are the smooth ones; the rest were pretty tasteless. $\:D$

I'm back!

I spent last weekend shooting at Blackwater USA in North Carolina with a world champion and somebody else paying for the ammo. It was a fantastic time, a once-in-a-lifetime thing, and I kind of considered it part of my GAL. When the chance came up (I won a contest) I never considered not going--and for me, that's a big step.

It's only been a little over a week since I made love to my wife, but I'm getting antsy. Last Wednesday, the night before I had to get on a plane to be gone for three days (that's a long separation for us) she rolled over in bed and said, as nearly as I can remember:
"Honey, I love you, and I want to show you that I love you, but I'm so tired. I think all I can manage is the 'vanilla' kind of sex tonight."

On the one hand, I liked her honesty. We made love and it was nice. Nothing to write home about, but nice. Loving. On the other hand, I didn't enjoy the implication that this was her favor to me (even though I know that this is true) that she was not really looking forward to the chore of having sex with me (even though I know this is true, too) and, most of all, that she was apologizing for disappointing me, because I demand some sort of wild, kinky sex every time and she was only up for "vanilla."

It's true that I've introduced all the more adventurous ideas into our bed. She occasionally talks a good game, sometimes buys something or other, but she rarely actually uses the stuff she buys or follows through with her talk. But why does she think I've done that? Because she keeps saying "Maybe if we try this or that, then I could get excited."

From my side of the bed, it always feels like I have to bring up some new idea that's wilder or more forbidden than last time, because just the thought of making love to me, her husband, her lover, is just not exciting enough to overcome whatever it is that's dropped an anvil on her sex drive. I'm so tired of this.

Still, I know she's trying. I know she's frustrated just like I am. I just wish she wasn't frustrated by sex; it'd be OK if she were frustrated by the lack of it, because I can fix that.

A few days ago I found one of my "for couples" porn videos in the player in our bedroom. It's a VHS and it was stopped halfway through a scene. I asked her about it during a very private moment and she admitted that she'd been watching it by herself, which I found very arousing (technically this would be considered "hardcore" pornography, but it's produced by a woman and intended to be watched by men, women, and couples. The scenes are fun and loving with none of the weirdness that often creeps into mainstream pornography.) But I'm afraid that my asking her about it embarrassed her; I haven't heard any more about it since.

A few days after that, she really surprised me. It was the first day of school for teachers, and I had to deal with my pregnant co-teacher all day. She's good assertiveness training; last year, she made the new teacher who worked with her go to McDonald's and get her lunch. She doesn't try stuff like that with me, and if she asks for something I don't think is appropriate, I just say no (this is so easy with other women.) I called my wife to see about having lunch together and mentioned this teacher had asked me to do something, and I'd told her I wouldn't. My wife joked that she was jealous at the thought of "another woman ordering you around."
I told her she could give all the orders she wanted and get the same answer.
"Yeah, well, she doesn't do all things you like for you that I do." she joked.

That was a Friday. I joked back that I couldn't wait to get home so she could do these things I like. It fell on deaf ears. I made a few more cracks on Saturday. Nothing. Finally, on Sunday, she agreed that we would "play." The problem was that she wasn't up for sex, but she was willing to try something new, which was that I would lie back and relax and she would touch me instead of the other way around. This was a HUGE step for her. We've had sex for years where I touch every part of her body and she touches almost no part of mine. I get kisses on the lips, hands on genitals, and that's IT. I had almost forgotten how much it bothered me; it just seemed like she thought I was too unattractive to be worth touching.
Before anyone asks, YES, I had brought this up years ago and then again every once in awhile. I told her honestly how it made me feel. She either didn't care or didn't understand, but either way, nothing changed.
Until that Sunday night. She used her hands, and she touched my legs, my belly, and my chest. It sounds pathetic as I write it now, but it was better than anything I've experienced in years. It felt like she wanted to touch me, at least a little.

Anyway, now it's been over a week, and the cackling hens in the teacher's lounge today were discussing sex and how none of them get enough, and all I could think was "Line up and let's see who's serious," and so clearly I'm losing it a little bit. All in all, it was a good day. I got a lot of work done, I had a good time teaching, I ate well and had a killer workout. But I still let this sex thing cloud my thinking, and a good day turns into another day with no sex in sight. Now my wife is sick, and I know it's not her fault, but a little part of me says she's glad she's sick because now she won't have to fake interest in sex with me for at least a few days. I hate feeling like I'm her unpleasant chore.

Aw, Bear,

I feel so sad for you.

"I hate feeling like I'm her unpleasant chore."

I really wish you wouldn't feel this way, but I can't stop your feelings from feeling. All I can say is STOP feeling this way. You are a man in a marriage, and you are (at least) having sex. Try to think of all the people on this board who are worse off than you are (me, for instance) who have no one, no husband and no wife hanging around the house to even talk to.

I wish you well. You'll do OK. Keep your chin up and read.

hugs,
poet

Well, don't cry too hard for me. My life is pretty good, really. I think it's hard to understand each other. For her, I (SillyOldBear) and sex with me are separate things. She rejects the one but not the other.

For me, they're more or less one thing. I look at the language I've been using--offering myself, risking myself, I'm a chore, etc. She wouldn't use that language to describe what's happening. For her it's more like someone you like is going out to do something you don't like much, and he asks you to go along. If you don't want to go, you are not rejecting him, only declining to go to his underwater basket-weaving seminar with him.

For me, to offer sex is, in some way, to tell her I love her and ask whether she loves me. "No, thank you" is not the right answer.

Greetings, Bear;

We are way, way too much like each other, my friend. The following is advice that I give to myself regularly now, at this stage in my own SSM recovery:

First, your wife has had several years of low sex drive and hurt feelings, about both you and herself in that regard, that she is now trying to overcome and change. That change does not come easy, takes time, and backslides into old habits WILL occur from time to time. But she's still trying, and change will come eventually. So for now, every time she senses that you're feeling sexually pent up, have "waited long enough," and in response she takes Michelle's advice and Just Does It!, even if she's feeling tired or is otherwise not in the mood, then you need to accept it and Just Do It! also. It may not be the fireworks and passion that you really want from her, but it is a very loving gift to you, from her -- accept it as such. The fireworks will return some other time, believe me.

Second, one of your (our) Nice Guy traits is to never feel truly worthy, never feel 'good enough,' never feel deserving of love, sexual attraction, or passion from our wifes. And all of those years of sexual rejection simply reinforced this notion over and over again. So now that you and your wife are trying to repair your intimate relationship, both on the emotional and physical front, your natural reaction is to unconsciously CONTINUE to look for any signs of rejection, lack of interest on her part, anything that will continue to reinforce that pathogenic belief that you are still unworthy of her sexual interest. This is a form of Self Sabotage that you will have to work to stop. It's ironic that as soon as it looks like you might actually get what you want out of your relationship, and are working towards achieving it, your unconscious mind tends to go into overdrive, trying to disprove this and ruin such progress. You ARE worthy, you DO deserve to be happy, you ARE sexually attractive as a man, and your wife DOES get turned on by you. So stop looking for a cloud in a silver-lining and reading 'rejection' into her actions at every opportunity.

Third, rather than thinking that you have to play a game of one-up-manship, making each sexual encounter more exciting than the last, relax and learn how to enjoy the entire spectrum of sexual activities. Sometime it can be hard and rough, but other times it ought to be soft and gentle; sometimes slow, sometimes fast; sometimes for only a short time, sometimes you can lounge about the bed for hours. As you expand your sexual activity horizons, take full advantage of the full repertory of activities/approaches that you have at your disposal. I've talked before about catering to HER Sexual Archetype, but you also need to cater to YOUR OWN too -- sometimes you work to become her fantasy man, and sometimes you get her to be your fantasy woman.

Lastly, when the idea of 'pity sex' really bothers you and you can't see it as the loving gift that she intends it to be, then every now and then you should turn the tables and take rather than receive. That is, take her to bed entirely for your own selfish male pleasure --> don't worry about arousing her, don't worry about her pleasure and her orgasm, just do her in the manner of your choice (you've got your couple's safe-word to keep you in line). I know: this sounds rude and rather callous of me to suggest, and I wouldn't advise it to anyone else who's situation wasn't so much like my own. But this occasional approach does two things for her and two things for you. For her (1) it releases her from any pressure to perform passionately for you, pressure which will be heightened at your stage in your SSM recovery, and (2) it feeds a particularly feminine appetite to be 'ravished' that neither you nor I will ever understand, but it's still there -- done right, she'll actually enjoy the experience of servicing you. For you (1) it satisfies your immediate need for sexual intimacy, and (2) it forces you OUT of your typical "Nice Guy" mode of always worrying about, satisfying, and pleasing her. Nice Guys aren't used to being sexually ruthless and selfish this way, and I personally find it very hard to do. No, this isn't nearly as satisfying as all-out passionate sex in which both of you give and take and truly connect, but it's satisfying in it's own way, for both of you.

[And yes, I know that you've raised objections to this last idea before, and I understand them, believe me -- use your own best judgment.]

Take care,

-- B.