I tend to ramble, so apologies in advance.
My wife and I met in college. I was 19, she was 18. We talked at a party and then two weeks later met at an on-campus concert, sat together, talked for hours after, and became inseparable. We must've put in a year's worth of dating in 5 weeks (the joys of on campus living, eh?). At any rate, we were young, but very much a good couple. We talked, we always enjoyed doing things together, did the little things for each other, etc. All the relationship stuff you're supposed to do, in many ways we did intuitively from the beginning (not that we didn't each make mistakes) and kept doing until about 4 years ago.
So much for preamble. Skipping ahead to the worst night of my life last October. My wife told me she had an affair (began as an EA in May of last year on a business trip) with a co-worker. And, the nice touch, she volunteered that she initiated it and that they had sex in our bed. I was crushed. Numbed. Humiliated. Angry (more on the anger below). I knew of the friendship with this guy. However, silly me, I trusted my wife and was happy that she had a friend. After all, I have female friends and it would've been a little hypocritcal to be jealous. Plus, I thought she loved me. Our relationship had had a few dips, but had seemed to be improving in spring/summer last year. In reality, it was blowback from her affair.
To my regret, I snapped and assaulted her. Not hitting her, but I was going to have sex with her whether she wanted to or not -- in the back of my mind I think I wanted to make her feel as worthless as I felt at that time (not my best moment). Fortunately, I came to my senses (I think I literally went crazy for about a minute) and went downstairs. I remember walking back to the stairs leading to our bedroom and looking at the front door. I decided that I'd be happier with her than without her, a decision that hasn't changed.
So, much to my surprise, I realized that I love her still and want to stay with her. We talked alot that night and actually ended up having sex, which I still don't understand. The first time was like a dog marking his territory. The second was, on my part, out of love and wanting to show her that (one problem, I've tended to equate sex with emotional intimacy over the years). So, we talked, said things like, "we've been drifting apart" and "this may bring us closer together." W ended the A the next morning. Showed me the email to and from OM.
OK. So now we're trying to put this back together. She has always been resistant to reading or getting help online. I thought counceling would push us further apart, I had a bad experience earlier. I bought one of the books by the Gottmans and read some things online, but we really just tried to act "as if" things were OK. And, for a while, they did seem to improve. We paid more attention to each other, laughed more, we've always done things as a family (day trips, museums, picnics) and we kept doing that, after a few weeks, we began a normal sex life. However, looking back, I was an idiot. Intellectually, I knew that I had a role in how the marriage ended up. I made all of the correct sounds with my mouth about accepting responsibility, but never felt it. I also pushed sex as a way to reconnect emotionally, which was the exact opposite of what my wife wanted (and, really, what I want). She always felt pressured and I wanted to schedule so that she wouldn't feel pressure. I brought up the A, "if you could schedule sex with OM, why not with me?" Stupid thing to say as I type that now.
In January, we had a good talk. I told her I felt like she was holding back from becoming "us" again. She agreed and really broke down for the first time, "I don't want to lose you. I wish I could turn back time." From that time until the end of April, I thought we were putting our marriage back together. I had started to take more responsibility/initiative around the house. We bought a piece of furniture in March and we continued to do things as a couple and as a family and have fun doing it. I then go away for a week for work in April. When I returned, she was very standoffish. I got back on a Friday. On Sunday, I got the ILYBNILWY talk. She had said she felt great when I was gone. No pressure. My wife says something once, and means it. I, as you can tell, like to go on at length. Sometimes too long. I was a little clingy and unsure around her since she told me of the A, until just after we bought the piece of furniture together. That's when I began to feel good about us again, but started back into bad habits. I admit to being shocked and actually begging, very briefly and immediately apologized as being unfair to her, for her to stay. We tried councelling, but our counceller basically just reinforced my wife's feelings without ever getting to why she felt that way.
OK, so in late May/early June, I drove home to LA to help my brother move into an apt (car accident, partially paralyzed) and stay with him while he got used to living alone. Basically, a trial separation. The whole time, I'm reading (DB, among others) and trying to figure out how SHE could do this to US. As I was driving back, I had a St Paul "Road to Damascus" moment. It suddenly clicked about how my actions had led to the way she felt. My heart was always in the right place, but I had been selfish. When we met, i was very confident. In the 3 or 4 years before the A, I had become less confident -- work wasn't going great, I had gotten fat, our sex life wasn't like it used to be, I felt trapped. I drank too much and too often and spent more time playing computer games or PS2 than being with her. I work at home. She would come home after doing errands during her lunch hour and I would be playing a game rather than getting dinner ready or getting my crap out of the sink. I would drink if she refused sex or not drink whiskey, but something else, if we were going to be intimate later. That made her feel manipulated and used. I realized that for years she had taken all of the initiative with the girls and getting things done around the house. We had also disconnected emotionally. I don't know who started first, but we had each built walls. We attempted to bring them down, but just seemed to miss each other. In short, she had the A partly because I wasn't giving her what she needed. When we tried to reconnect, I remained the same person and the same behaviors. Waiting for her to change while ignoring what I needed to do to make both myself and her happy. I realized that I had been blaming her for everything and she felt that. and, in pushing sex, I was pushing her away. While I'm proud of finally figuring this stuff out on my own, I wish to God that she had just opened up her mouth and told me directly how she felt. She avoids conflict and that's one of the reasons why we drifted apart. I got tired of trying to get her to talk to me and her clamming up. But, again, when I look at it now. In some ways, I was browbeating her and not respecting how she communicates (and vice versa on her part).
So, here we are. I've been in LA for 3 weeks again after one week at home so that our girls can spend time with my parents (driving them to her parents tomorrow, home on Saturday). We'll have a week together and then she flies down for 10 days. (We do this every year. I just usually look forward to spending the time alone, we've ALWAYS enjoyed each other's company during that time alone, even last summer while the A was going on).
My W has noticed me trying to make changes, she mentioned that to our C in May, but has said, "too little, too late." Over the past 5 weeks, I've finally been able to distance myself. No relationship talks. Minimal email and phone contact. She's noticed that I'm losing weight (almost 20 pounds since the end of April). We still have a good time when we do things together. We can laugh and talk without arguing. There does seem to be an undercurrent of anger on her part though. She told me that I had scarred her. I had read DB back in the fall, but didn't really implement anything (after all, it was her fault, right?). I'm conflicted about what to do now. I feel like we're finally being honest with each other about our feelings. Me: I love her and have treated her somewhat poorly over the past few years (knowing that we have had more good times than bad and that I didn't intend to hurt her). W: We're done. I'd like to try for a year to see if things can change. That's all I've asked her for when I was in MD 3 weeks ago, a little time so that you can see the changes in me are real. She almost agreed, but backed off (she asked how long and I said Christmas). Yes, I know that's contradictory to DR, but I hadn't read it yet
It's just. . . . . AIIIIEEEEEE! What do you do? On some levels, it seems like she's unsure. She wants us both to file for D. I've asked, and she's agreed, to not contact a lawyer yet and to try to do this through mediation (neither one of us wants to beat up on the other -- joint custody, 50/50 split of assets, etc.) She's so stubborn I'm worried that if I back off too much she'll think I'm getting used to the idea of letting her go (and I have told her I can and that I don't want a promise from her that we WILL be OK, just that we'll make the effort.) Ack. I've gotta stop and get back to work. Any thoughts appreciated. Felt good to get this off my chest and out of my head though.
Hello H! Sorry I am just finding your thread now. I started to read it, but have to walk out of work now. Meeting the kiddos at the pizza joint, and we're going to the circus tonight! I wanted to give you a bump up to the top. And I will check in later tonight or this weekend. Also, I hoep traffic picks up on your thread soon. Don't get too discouraged. A lot of good people here are stretched pretty thin. There seem to be 3 -4 new people every day! It is sad.
Talk to you later!
Nomo
PS - I dated a woman in college from Fredrickburg (I think), MD. Close to you?
Hi Heimlich--
I think that there are good things in your situation--although I wouldn't expect you to agree! First off, your wife informed you of her affair of her own free will; evidently, you hadn't even suspected anything. She must not have been comfortable with what she was doing. To freely confess: not many do, I think.
Therefore, she's an honest person and a good person--and apparently a very stubborn person! I think that you must be careful not to appear to pressure her--to push, beg, or to use obvious manipulation.
Another good thing about your situation is your own honesty in taking responsibility for the role you may have played in undermining the marriage. You're quite blunt about it, really.
What puzzles me is why things took a turn for the worse after a period of improvement. Do you have any ideas about this? Did you notice your W's anger at the time of the affair?
I guess that your main job right now is to keep proving to your wife that you have changed, and that your changes are neither too little or too late. You prove that by your actions. Be prepared for this to take a long time. Be patient.
Best wishes!!
I think that others will soon chime in with advice and encouragement. Many people who were once where you are are making good progress--but slowly. Just remember that this takes time.
Heimlich,
I feel for you and what you are going through. Hang in there and keep up with the changes. She seems a little indecisive right now, which is good.
Germantown, MD it sounds familiar
....considering I drive I-270 everyday
to Bethesda for work. I work at the National Institutes of Health.
I'll write more later...keep up the good work.
Matt
Thanks Delia, Matt, and Nomo
Just got in from the drive from Louisiana. Lake Charles to Bush (across the lake from New Orleans) to drop the girls off at the W's parents (who also wish we could work things out, so that's a plus) yesterday. Then on the road at 8 (eastern) and pulled in front of my house at 10:30. The reason for this intro? A NEW personal drive time best -- 1060 miles, 14:30 hours (14:03 of drive time)!!! Woo hoo. I've been trying to break 15 hours on this trip for 10 years. It's the little things that keep me going.
Nomo: Frederick is about 20 miles north of here. Fredericksburg is 50 miles south of DC in VA. Not sure of any colleges in Frederick, so must've been Fredericksburg. The name of the college there escapes me, it's been awhile since an antiquing/civil war battlefield jaunt in that direction.
Matt, Thanks and watch out for those damn deer at NIST. True story. Bought a new Saturn just over 9 years ago. Driving it home from the dealership. Turn off of exit 15, hit a deer, which flops on my hood, placing a huge dent in it. My W was following me and didn't see it. I pull up in front of our house, didn't even turn off the car. There's $)%&)*#$ deer hair stuck on the hood of my first ever brand new vehicle (a Saturn, but still). Turned around and brought it back to the dealership. $500 deductible before I ever park the damn thing at home.
Anyway, to the matter at hand, Delia. Looking back, she gave me plenty of hints about how she was feeling, but I had my head up my a$$ (both before the A and then the recent backsliding after what I thought was a period of improvement). I've seen the term alien on the board to refer to WAW. In the two to three years leading up to the A, I was borderline depressed. Drank too much, didn't pay a lot of attention to her (at least, not like I used to), got even fatter, not happy at work. Looking back, while we did have a lot of really good times, I wasn't a great partner and an alien to myself. I didn't really like what I had turned into. She took the initiative on about 90% of the things around the house. I was a willing accomplice, but she did get tired of it. The twist here is that she was good at that stuff, so I had stepped back and did a lot of the day-to-day stuff with the kids (baths, feeding, diapers, etc.). As they got older, I never transitioned over to helping out with everything else. In some sense, I hadn't really grown up (which is an idea I've been chewing over on the drive up today. One good thing about long drives alone.) I've also realized that while I felt that I wanted to be emotionally close to her, I had withdrawn. I had always been the strong one in the relationship and didn't want to be seen as weak or burden her. I can see it now, a year ago at this time it was just part of the general sense of "drifting apart." Also, while it was never my intent, some of the ways I've acted regarding sex led her to see herself as a "piece of meat" (her words).
The problem with the honesty is that it's recent. Four weeks ago, I mentally gave myself the gift of honesty with myself for my birthday. I had my moment of clarity 4 weeks and a day ago. I'm terrified that it's too late. I've also felt like my old self again, for about 2 months now, for the first time in years. And that old self is a good self. The problem is, I've been in LA for 6 of the past 7 weeks (3 weeks each sandwiched around a week back home). The two weeks prior to the first trip down, I was strung out on pregnozone, which I had to take to cure poison ivy I got while taking the girls for a walk in the woods. That stuff made me nuts. I'd be telling myself to shut up and just keep on babbling about our R, which just drove her away.
Delia, she is a good person -- fun, funny, caring, sensitive, smart, a good mother and lover. I can see myself growing old with her. I keep replaying a very emotional conversation we had in mid-Jan. I told her that she was still keeping me at arms length and that I didn't want to live like that and was thinking of leaving. I didn't want to, but there was a wall. She broke down and apologized, really apologized (only the second time she did it). Said that she wished she could turn back the clock. Was sorry for hurting me. Didn't want to lose me. All of the stuff I really wanted to hear. So, my dumb a$$, thinking I'm God's gift to my W, doesn't really change my behavior. Underneath, I still blamed her, pushed sex too much, remained clingy and unconfident, kept eating not great and drinking more often than I should have (less than before, but still too much). I also picked back up on playing PC games and Xbox. Booze and games were two ways in which I ignored her and made her feel unimportant to me (again, a recent revelation to me). Rereading that, it sounds worse than it was. We were spending more time together and having a good time, but I hadn't changed, in any real way, my behavior.
She's said two sortof contradictory things about the months of Jan -- April in the last few weeks.
1. I never really felt connected or in love during that time. [I don't think she ever mentally committed to us. Lingering feelings for the co-worker, my continued bad habits -- not a good combo). Still, unless she's a better actress than I ever suspected, there were plenty of times when we both let our guards down, in and out of bed, where we connected. I was just too insecure to really keep positive momentum going.]
2. After that conversation, I was really ready to be a couple again.
I think the second is true and I wish I had said some version of the following: Thank you for telling me what I needed to hear. I know that was hard for you and I didn't realize how ashamed you felt about what happened. I haven't been myself for years, and I can see how my actions led you to feel the way you felt. I'm sorry too. You're the most important person in my life and I took you for granted. I'll never do that again. I'll also start changing, now, and become the man that you married, only better.
There's more that I rehearsed on the drive up, but I'm gassed.
She was asleep when I got home, in one of our girl's beds. I was expecting that we would sleep apart, but still hurt that she had already done so. I just touched her briefly on the arm to let her know I was home and that it was good to see her. I think we're going to talk tomorrow. Her mind, from everything that I know, is set on divorce. That we can't fix this.
I'm thinking of telling her the things I wish I had said tomorrow (and these are things I just realized, so it's new information, not a rehash of previous conversations). All I want is time to show her that I'm the old me again, but better, and that I can treat her the way I used to and really want to -- gifts, really being partners in our lives, dates alone, flowers, etc. Any thoughts on how to ask for that time without appearing to be begging? Just asking, in a firm, but gentle voice, strikes me as the way to go, but . . . .
On a different note, anyone have any thoughts about who should move out if it comes to that? I hate the idea of moving out because it's her D at this time and I don't want my girls to think I'm leaving them? Is that selfish? My MIL thinks I should be the one to leave because the "girls need their mother" and "it's the man thing to do." WTF, they damn well need me too.
OK, enough with the novel. Jeez, you wouldn't think I make my living as an editor would you?
BD
Heimlich,
I know about the deer at NIST.
I live in Frederick. I was at my company picnic today in Germantown which made me think of you.
I told my W the same thing last summer or fall that I wasn't happy with the way things were. I didn't get much of a response or change though. Now I know why.
I hope you W gives your relationship time to change. Good luck on your conversation tomorrow. I think even if she files, it takes time to happen so still work on improving you. You never know what could happen. Never say Never.
As far as separating...in my sitch:
If we separate I will be the one leaving. I think the kids need to be with their mother and she does take care of them. I will be around a lot though. I will even let her stay in the house for a while with the kids. If this happens, I can not remove my kids from their house and friends, it would be too tough on them.
Matt
Ug. We had the talk and it was as expected, she's done and is planning on calling an attorney tomorrow. She's at least open to the possibility of mediation rather than an attorney, so financially this may not be too awful. Plus, since neither of us is out to hurt the other, that should go smoothly. Man, I can't believe I just had to type that.
I told her how I feel. I'm sorry for making you feel unimportant. That my heart was always in the right place, but I couldn't consistently translate my feelings into actions -- especially over the past 4 years as I kind of lost myself and really withdrew from her. I acknowledged to her that her feelings are valid and that I am responsible, in a big way, for where we are today and for how she feels and that she doesn't have to apologize. I did ask for a little time to show her that the changes I'm making are real. That I'd like for us to really be a couple, a partnership, and to do that I need to change, but that the changes are for me first. She said that she's tired of trying. That she is a nurturer (which she is, and she has made me a better man) and that she's tired of trying. For the first time in a while, I opened up to her and said that I know that you've tried to help me for years, but that I locked you out. She feels like I'm holding her back because I haven't changed. I acknowledged that she has developed a lot of self-confidence in the past few years (low self-esteem for years) and that part of the reason I didn't open up to her as I lost myself is that I was alwyas the strong one and didn't want to burden her.
The thing is, I've only just realized how much I've hurt her. I told her that she doesn't have any reason to trust me, but that I feel like I am changing. She sees me becoming a little more like I used to be, but sees it as manipulation. She's also complained for about two years that her hands hurt, her kneck gets stiff, and a few other aches and pains. When I'm gone, she says she's fine. When she starts thinking about me coming home, she said her hands started hurting again last Tuesday. She says that physically, she just can't give me time. She doesn't trust me and that I'm changing for show. She was afraid of how I would react. That she was scared of me. That hurt. I told her that, since the night she told me of the A, I haven't been angry with her at all. Frustrated, but not angry and that I would never hurt her.
While I'm sad, I'm not surprised. I was almost certain this conversation was going to happen. I was just hoping that she would agree to give me a litle time. After all, as I told her, we can always divorce. She's gone to a pottery shop for awhile. I asked if she wanted to be alone and she said yes, so I didn't push. I did tell her throughout the conversation that I have realized that she is the most important in my life and that I really do understand how I acted made her feel the way she feels. She did admit that she could have spoken up at times rather than avoiding conflict, but that the way I've responded to her over the years made her feel stupid. I'm still trying to grasp that one. I can be opinionated, but I never thought that she was stupid. She said I made her feel like she was never good enough or smart enough. I told her I never felt that way. Ever.
I have no idea how to handle the separation conversations we are going to have. I don't want to leave. I don't want to be a part-time parent. I want to be with her. I know I need to let go and act as-if, and I'll be able to, but, damn, THIS SUCKS. Especially since I was the one, in many ways, that got us here.
We're still friends, and there's a lot of love for each other. She just says that she's always tense when I'm around. Time to really start being myself with her again and showing her that I'm a man worthy of being with. As everyone says, time and patience.
Going to get a little work out in the home gym now. Not really GALing, but it does make me feel better.
Heimlich,
I will admit it. I have a double standard. When the marriage has no children, I empathize with the hurting partner, but I don't really think it matters that much if the marriage continues or doesn't. On the other hand, when the couple has children, this whole self-indulgent, "I deserve to be happy and I'm not happy with you" stuff makes me angry. Marriage with children is not a whim, it is a responsibility and a commitment.
That said, I think you should not insist that your wife give you time to convince her that you love her. It would be nice if that happened, but you owe your kids more than that. I think you should insist that she make a good faith last effort to fix your broken marriage. And yes, there is a way to do it. I have done it myself with the help of retrouvaille.org.
Retrouvaille begins with a weekend of learning to communicate CONSTRUCTIVELY. It is a skill that is taught. Then there are follow-up sessions for 6 weekends. There is homework. You need to do the entire program, and do the homework, and use the disciplined techniques for this to work. But I promise it works.
And I've heard all the excuses. If you want to save your marriage go to
http://www.retrouvaille.org and book a weekend.
And by the way, I'm from Mandeville, LA, but moved to Florida right before Hurricane Katrina destroyed the roof of my house.
Oh, and who should move out? The bad guy moves out. If you want to be the bad guy, move out.
Sara,
Are you saying that you felt the same way in your M as my W and that Retrouvaille helped you turn it around? If so, how did you make the decision to go? My W is convinced that my efforts are just for show and that she can never be happy with me. That she is too "scarred" from the way I treated her. At the same time, she admitted that she could have opened up to me a little more than she did, so she knows there's fault on her side too.
I don't know how to convince her to do something like the retrouvaille stuff. I'm open and willing, and actually looked at it before. She's not. I have told her that she had every right to be unhappy, but that I've realized how poorly I treated her -- without help from her. And, now, that we're finally being honest with each other, that now is the time for a final effort. She just keeps saying that it's too late and that it's over. She's had enough.
Man, Mandeville to FL, out of the frying pan into the fire. Good luck this hurricane season
BD
No, my sitch was different. My husband was having the affair. Maybe he is more down to earth than some. He was angry about the ways that I had treated him in the past. He said that he just wanted to be in a relationship where he was appreciated. If it was with me, that would be better than with another woman, since we have 3 children. But he was insistent that he be appreciated. I don't remember him insisting on love. But love did grow again for both of us. At least I think it did. My husband is not a very demonstrative person. So maybe I am putting words in his mouth.
Hi H,
Have just been reading thro' your thread.
I was wondering - who is giving your wife support and advice at the moment? Especially with you being away so much.
Maybe the source of her support could be affecting her view of things; just a thought really.
Saffie
How did I convince him to go to Retrouvaille? I think the timing had a lot to do with it.
He took me to a restaurant for a talk about our relationship. Huge mistake. It blew up and got very loud and ugly. We both were so angry we could have hurt each other, but didn't. On the way back home we were both silent in the car. I was thinking I need to find a divorce lawyer. I suspect his thoughts were similar.
Then I said, "I've heard there's a program called Retrouvaille that helps people like us. I think we should go." There being no other suggestions, he said OK. I booked the first weekend I could. He never balked. And we went. It was a life-changing experience.
To look into the eyes of couples who had been through what we were experiencing and worse, and to see the love that they have for each other now was inspiring. From the start, I was thinking, if they can do it, why can't we? It was a slow process. It took about 6 months to feel confident that we will stay together because we are happy together. But we are here now and committed to each other in a way that we never were committed before.
It is so much better to see the good in another person, and love that goodness, than to see the bad and hate it. I used to spend all day thinking about what I hated about my husband. Those bad feelings fed on themselves and made me mean. Now I banish those thoughts, and replace it with the good. Where I used to grumble that he never helped around the house, now I just ask him nicely to help me, and he does. And I thank him for helping. We get along. It's all so simple, except it really isn't.
Sara, Saffie
Thanks for the thoughts. The W really isn't talking to anyone. She's close to both her Mom and Dad; both of whom want us to work things out and were floored both by the A and then a few months ago when my W said she was done. MIL has told me that my W just keeps saying she's finished; sometimes after talking about something fun that we've done together (trip to Rehobeth, going to see Riverdance, a couple of other things) and that the W had a good time doing. I found out she hasn't spoken to her Dad in a month on Friday when I dropped our girls off. He's disappointed in her and pushing her to try with me, which she doesn't want to hear. My Mom, who she has been close with for years, sent her an email (without my knowledge), but my W won't talk to her either. A friend of ours tried to call a few times to talk, but she won't return the call. More my friend than my W's, but still a friend to both of us (met her in grad school when moved into her group house with my best friend. They are now married and went through some ups and downs before squaring their M away. She just wanted to share and be a shoulder to lean on.) The only person she is speaking to that I know of is the receptionist at her office, who she has gotten to be friends with over the past two years. She's divorced and is giving her the "kids will be ok" talk. Sounds like her H was pretty crappy towards her. I've only met her once or twice. Other than that, she's relying on herself for these decisions.
Like she said earlier today, I tried for years. I'm tired of trying. I asked her if she felt she had totally committed to our R in Oct of last year. She said she gave it about 75% effort. I said I was giving it 100% effort, but blaming her and not taking any responsibility. I then asked what would happen, since I we're now being honest with each other, if we were to both give 100% at the same time. She just keeps saying she doesn't want to be married to me any longer. Kindof this giant circular reasoning. We can't work because I tried and that didn't work and you didn't give me what I needed (partly because she never told me) and that I don't have those feelings and they're gone.
Sara, thanks. I would love to go to Retrouvaille and think it would really help us. However, I tried to get her to go to a similar retreat this weekend and she wouldn't do it.
I've told her that I really do realize how my actions hurt her and that I am still very much in love with her.
At this point, there's not much I can do. I'm going to continue to improve myself and stop living scared and try new things (something I've not done for about 4 years). Dance lessons this Wed are the first step in that direction. I'll be there for her and do what I can, but it looks like we're heading for at least a S at this point.
Beyond what's in DB and DR, anyone have any suggestions for breaking through my W's wall?
BD
H-
It could be mid-life crisis, or it could be that she is still involved with another man. Usually, those intent on divorce and refusing to try are hiding an affair. They are in a rush to get on to their next relationship. There's a lot of information on this board about MLC. You could read it and see if it seems to fit.
Heimlich--
I think that you've been doing well in your honest discussions with your wife. You've admitted guilt, listened carefully to what she has to tell you, and agreed with her--validating her feelings. This is all a core part of DB'ing, as I understand it.
But your wife doesn't trust the changes that you've made. That means that you're going to have to stay calm, allow her the space that she's asked for, and continue to work on yourself--as you mentioned earlier. It's very possible that she has doubts herself about divorce. Shutting out the people who she knows will push her towards restoring the marriage may be more a sign of wavering than a show of independence: as though she fears hearing the arguments of the other side. Remember, too, that with her family pushing her, you must be especially careful to treat her with kindness, and to respect her need for space. This might be a way of setting yourself apart from others. Try to be the totally accepting friend she can feel at ease with.
It might even help if you spoke to your in-laws about not putting pressure on your wife. Families being what they are--big grapevines--you probably only need to speak to one person. You might even honestly admit your own failings, and try to tactfully suggest that pressuring is having the opposite effect.
Breaking through the wall, in this case, is usually a long process. It's sort of like breaking through a wall with a dinner fork, or a piece of sandpaper. (Sorry! Don't mean to be discouraging. It's probably not THAT long a process). If you're a high-energy person, then you'll have to teach yourself patience.
If you can just get her to wonder whether divorce will really solve her problems--just plant that doubt--just get her wavering--then you will have a chance to stop this.
Try the book The Five Love Languages (I think that's the right title).
Read some of the success stories on this site.
Try to work through the inevitable feelings of discouragement. When you're around your wife, stay upbeat, listen more than you talk, and validate her feelings.
I think I'm starting to repeat myself--so I'll just wish you a good night! I think you're doing very well....
Thanks, Delia, for the kind words.
I know, I know. Patience. It's just so damn hard -- sorry, everyone, for my mastery of the obvious on that one.
That's a great analogy, breaking down a wall with a dinner fork. Further, right now it feels like I'm using one of those rubberized baby spoons. I guess what DBing is about is undermining that wall with unstinting love and kindness and not attacking it head on.
I have spoken to her Mom. Rightly, she's accepting of whatever my W wants, but she's also told my W that she should keep trying. I've asked her not to push, but to gently nudge her, when possible, toward giving us another chance. She flies down to LA next Saturday, so maybe her stance will soften over that time. I don't know. I did tell the MIL that I finally really understood my role in our relationship. She was appreciative and even said before I left to drive home Sat. that she still thinks there's no reason for us not to try to work things out. My fingers are crossed that they'll have a heart to heart and change my W's feelings to at least give it another go.
I told her ILY before she left for work today. I have got to stop doing that. She was angry as she walked out the door a few minutes ago. She's going to call a lawyer today. I think she makes herself angry at me so that she can make that call.
Sara, No. I don't think she's seeing anyone else. I will check out the MLC area this evening though. Hadn't really thought of that. Thanks.
I sympathize with you too C_K. I've focused on my W and girls more than myself in the past few years. I truly am/was happy being her H and their daddy. I do like to get out and do things, but I've stopped trying new things for a while. Time to get out of my comfort zone, primarily for me, but also to show the W that I am capable of growing.
BD
Oh, and, Delia or anyone, regarding planting the seeds of doubt that D is the right answer, what are your thoughts on asking her to read the first chapter of DR? Is that pushing or could it plant a seed? I'm torn.
On the one hand, she doesn't see anything but her need to leave right now. On the other, I don't think she's ever looked at anything that talked about the effect on the children, the ideas about follow-on relationships, and stated that things can get better, but that it's not a quick and easy fix.
She just keeps saying she doesn't want to be married to me any longer. Kindof this giant circular reasoning. We can't work because I tried and that didn't work and you didn't give me what I needed (partly because she never told me) and that I don't have those feelings and they're gone.
BD
H,
I am currently in your position. My W of 16 1/2 yrs is currently having an A w/ OM and refuses to break it off. Her siblings and parents had a "family meeting" where they asked her about A and she didn't answer their questions. She is guilty and ashamed. Your W sounds like she may still be carrying on the A, I'm sorry to say. My W said the exact same thing. She wants D and doesnt' want to work on M. After she said that she consumated the A w/ OM at a weekend away w/ him. I hope this isn't the case w/ your W.
In terms of what you can do, if you do want to save the M I have a great book called "Stop your Divorce". I've given it to a few other people on this board and have used some techniques myself. It helps fill in some of the gaps DR doesn't. If you'd like I could e-mail you a copy. It's only 100 pages and easy reading. The publisher is the only one selling it and it's $80! If you want me to send you a copy let me know.
Hi BD,
I've been following your thread, just haven't had time to pop in on you.
Delia has an incredible ability to provide just the right analogy
to fit, & the tearing down a wall w/ a fork is a good one.
In our ever shifting state however, it does kinda feel like the baby spoon at times.
I know someone would have jumped in on the having the W read the books, etc., since I'm here now I'll urge you not to do that.
There are those on this board who have done so & regretted it.
It's like providing them w/your play book w/the end result usually being that they will see it as pressure, & also think they're being manipulated by your "new changes" in behavior.
I have to head out the door quickly, so I'll be back to you when I have more time.
Hang in there. Reading some of the other threads, such as CVA's, Nomopo's & Tyler's, will help greatly IMO. Especially the posts from WAW's on their threads, it'll give you an outlook from their side.
Best,
Sunny
Sunny,
Thanks. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of "seeing the playbook." It's not worth doing, you're right. Just curious, but did anyone try that approach, with or without success? As I gear up to this, I'm reading and trying to provide some thought to other sitch's -- nomo, ck, I think I added yours recently. As others have said, it helps clarify one's own thoughts and it feels good to help someone else out.
I did make the pushing mistake of emailing her a suggestion about an ebook that I found. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, I may be borderline. As of now, no more pushing. DB all the way, because talking and telling her my feelings sure as hell ain't working. I just keep hoping against hope that she'll turn to someone, someone who knows about relationships/marriage, for some insight rather than relying on her internal feelings and compass. I really do think that might get her to think about things in a new light. Regardless, not going to happen by me pushing. Just for kicks, the email is below.
OC, I don't think my W is carrying on the A. I asked her, and she has looked me in the eye and said no. Plus, I don't get that vibe from her. Looking back, there were signals last summer, I just didn't pick up on them. Plus, realistically, she knows that all she has to say for me to immediately end this is "I'm with him again/never left." I would be out the door. She hasn't, so I just have to trust her. I feel for you though. Especially the age. How does a 38 year old woman have an EA with a 22 year old? I was pretty mature back then, but nothing like I am today.
Regarding the ebook, I'm interested. I have a few as well, we can trade. My email address has my name, can you post yours and I can respond directly? If not, easy enough to get a gmail account.
I find it fascinating that every good ebook on saving the marriage that I've looked at focuses on the same too basic actions -- make yourself a better person (for you and because the person you've become, once you look at yourself, is someone that your S no longer wants to be with, at least in the way you act toward the other) and secondly, don't push.
I'm thick, but not that thick. I'm fully on board now. DBing away. Focus on me. No more ILY/pressure. Detach from her -- when she's around! (was easy in LA). Become the man I want to be and remain open to reconciliation.
Hey, fully knowing that you dislike this approach, but also knowing,
from my experience, how much reading some of the relationshp books has
helped me, would you be willing to work through a book like this:
http://www.stayorgo.com/Either with me or independently? (I skimmed some articles by the
authors.
This isn't happy talk BS stuff.)
I know from my own experience that before I began reading some things
and really thinking about myself, that I was clueless about my real
feelings for you. I've tried to explain what's in my heart by my apology
on my bday and then a little more yesterday. Please don't think that I'm
saying that you haven't thought deeply about your decision. I know that
you have. I did too about us from Oct to April; and I did try to
reconnect with you. But reading stories about people who have been in
the same situation as us, some of whom worked their relationships out
and some who didn't, really opened, and continues to open, my eyes about
me and us. It made me realize how I drove a wedge between us, albeit
unintentionally.
One thing I've always believed is that falling in love is something that
happens. You "fall" without any real effort. After that, it's a daily
decision; I choose to be in love with you. I can absolutely tell you
that in the past few weeks and months, when I consciously decided to
love you again, that I've felt more in love with you than I have in
years. Making the bed upstairs, because you like it that way, is a small
example of that. Doing that for you made me feel good.
For the first time in many years, my heart is open. I will never close
it again. I've always been scared of being hurt and held myself back a
little bit, mostly from other people, but also with you in the past few
years. I now understand that closing myself off hurts worse than the
possibilty of pain from being open. Because being open means a chance
for real love and joy.
I love you. I hope that's not the last time I have a chance to say it. I
know that trusting me again is scary. And, you're right, we may no
longer be able to be a couple again. I know and understand that. What I
don't know, definately, is whether both of us being open to love at the
same time again would lead to a lfelong love affair between us. I think
so. That was the case when we met and for years after.
With love,
Me
H -
I am not caught up on your thread right now, but on the book, I haven't heard of anyone having succes geeting the WAS to read DR or Db unless and until the WAS is re-invested in trying to save the M/R. Yours is not. She won't read it, and even if she does, she won't agree with it. Better not to try as the request is just more pressure that will push her away. I tried to get my wife to listen to some program tapes I have from my pre-DB discovery, and she started to but didn't finish and said (1) she didn't agree with what the lady said and (2) thought it was for couples in a different place than us.
Heimlich,
It seems you are spending enormous amounts of energy trying to save your marriage. Delia pointed out something key to you: give her space and start to work on yourself.
The reason you are losing your wife is that you have probably lost yourself. Your career slipped, as you pointed out. You were probably mildly depressed or bored with your life. You let your body go to pot, etc.
OK...time to find yourself. Save yourself and you might save your marriage.
Stop chasing her, it's making you come across as pathetic, needy, weak and fearful. STOP!!!!
--Theoden
Heimlich,
I do really feel the pain that you are going thru. My H told me the same thing when I told him that I wanted us to put a real effort into working on making things better for us. He said the same thing about how he didn't want to remain miserable for the rest of our lives. If we both started working on changing our destructive behavior then he don't know if we would be miserable again. I told him that we could have gone the other way and be closer then we have been in years and all he said was that he didn't love me anymore. We could have changed that. We could have both put in an effort and in 6 months there may have been something there again.
We have two youngs kids and like Sara said they deserve to have both of their parents together in a loving relationship. Calling it quits should be a last resort and not a first resort. Neither one of us have been really trying to build a good R and if we both can change then our family deserves that.
I would love to try that Retrouvaille but my H would never in the world go for something like that. Now I can only wait and hope that he can work things out on his own. I doubt it because I am sure that is the last thing on his mind.
Theodin (I always have a "lord of the rings" moment when I see your name),
Thanks for the kick in the pants. You are exactly right. I know you're right. It's time to focus on me.
Going to a dance lesson on Wed. Invited my W, but she's not interested so going alone. Am under 200 pounds for the first time in at least 6 years. Feels good. 30 pounds to go to get to 170 (a weight at 5' 6", I look pretty good at).
Kelley, too bad we can't infuse some of our M-saving desire into the other's S. I know that my girls will be OK in the long run because my W and I both love them and are determined not to hurt them. At the same time, I so wanted to give them a loving home with both parents.
I'm not giving up hope. Like Theodin said, I have to stop pushing and focus on me. From there, who knows what may happen. I think my W is living in a fantasy world in which the girls will just go along and has no idea of the pain that they're about to feel. I hope when she sees that, she'll begin to reconsider, but we'll see.
BD
You asked earlier abou people's experiences of sharing the DB or DR bks with their partners. I can't remember exactly who said it in your posts but whoever it was hit the nail on the head when they said to do this only if your partner had re-invested in the relationship.
My H and I have recommitted and we have shared parts of the book (DR) relevant to us with each other. The section on infidelity is good at seeing it from both partners views we found.
Commitment to each other does appear to be a real issue when it comes to seeing profits from doing this though.
Saffie
Regarding the ebook, I'm interested. I have a few as well, we can trade. My email has my name, can you post yours and I can respond directly? If not, easy enough to get a gmail account.
H,
my email LLOYDRMANTONG@ALLSTATE.COM. Send me an e-mail and I will reply w/ the book. You can also send me one if you have a good one to share.
So, I was finally able to be the laid-back, funny guy I really am inside last night with my W. I worked late (well, I stayed in the office late. Since Sunday, I've been preoccupied with my W's desire to end our M so I was doing some aimless Web surfing because I didn't want to go home.).
I got home around 8:30. She had cooked dinner. It looked like things had been ready for awhile, but when I asked if she had waited for me she said, "No, I just finished." Whatever. We sat down and had a good, light conversation over dinner. I told her about some of the funnier moments of my recent time in LA (since we hadn't really spoken over the phone. I was/am proud of myself for not calling/emailing her like I had done the first 3 weeks I spend down home).
Since she cooked, I did the dishes (something we've done since we've been married, not a 180 or DBing technique there). We chit-chatted a bit. She then called me over. One of our cats was sitting in a ladderback chair and she was cracking up; he looked like he was in prison, especially when he poked his head through the slats. She then pointed out a beer in the fridge that she had saved for me to try (she discovered beer almost exactly a year ago. Dogfish Head rules!). While she says it's over, our friendship is still intact.
I had also noticed when I returned home that she had bought skim milk, whole wheat bread, yogurt (for breakfast smoothies), and some lunch meat -- all for me. We get along so well, and she does these kind things for me, but still says she wants our M to be over. I just thanked her for buying that stuff for me without her pointing it out. Again, this is a simple act of kindness to me that she did not have to do.
At any rate, we wished each other good night and she went up to bed and I to the basement. No hug or kiss and I refrained, unlike in the past, from using body language to finagle either from her.
She also asked me, out of habit, I guess, if there were any problems with her going to a b-day dinner with co-workers on Wed. I said no, I have my first dance lesson that night anyway. Have fun. I wasn't looking at her, but I heard a tiny "oh."
A question for everyone: I know that she wants to begin the D process. I told her on Sunday that I would appreciate it if we could hold off on that conversation for a few days. That I don't feel strong enough to have that yet. I really don't. Was that a mistake? Should I bring it up again or wait until she mentions it? She knows I don't want a D, but I almost think that at least asking her if she's ready to talk about it before she asks me would be a 180. Opinions?
Her bday is Thursday. I asked her before work if I could take her to dinner that evening. She got a panic-type look in her eye and said, "Yes" Then, "We'll see". I said that I really would like to take you out, but that if you're uncomfortable that's fine. There's a whole bday backstory from when she was a kid. Aunts/uncles always lumped her bday with a cousin, but focused on the cousin, not my W. My dumba$$ never picked up on this (I've never been big on bday celebrations for myself) and that my wife really wanted to feel special on her bday. If she were even semi-committed to the R, I would have thrown a silly bday party for just the two of us (some ballons, made a cake, hats and pin the tail on the donkey). I know that would be pressure, but I did want to acknowledge her bday (I forgot it -- stupid, stupid, stupid -- the year before last or last year, can't remmeber which).
BD
H, I just read your thread, and I don't have any wonderful words of wisdom to pass on, you seem to have got your head and your heart in the right place, and just keep doing what you are!
Thanks for your post! The are appreciated!
I hope I'm not grasping at straws here, but my W did say something positive today.
I cooked dinner for us tonight. Nothing major, marinaded some chicken and grilled it, black beans and some brown rice. Not part of DBing, something I've always done. We were just chit-chatting, talking about our days at work over dinner. Laughing a little. Kind of like things used to be. There was a bit of a lull, so I decided to go for it and ask her about the Attorney/Mediator she had called yesterday.
She looked a little surprised that I would bring it up. Something she's been saying for a while is that she's afraid I won't let her go. She's never said it, but I think she's worreid that I'm going to be a pain/baby (never my intent). Anyway, since neither of us has any ill-will toward the other, we're going the mediation route, so she was telling me about that.
When she paused, I said something to the effect of "Are you sure?" To which she kindof nodded and gave a little more detail. Once she wound down, I then said that I still think we could rebuild our relationship. That this will impact the girls in ways you can't imagine (first time I've ever brought that up). That I don't expect any guarantees, but that I would appreciate it if she would think about things a bit more while she's at her parents' next week. I briefly told her again that six weeks ago, we couldn't have fixed things, but that today I'm at a place where I can be the partner she deserves. I thanked her for listening and stopped (6 weeks ago, it would have turned into an hour long monologue).
Then, sometimes in the next few minutes, she said something interesting. I'd like to arrange the meeting with the mediator, but we can always cancel it. She has NEVER, since April 22, given any indication of flinching from getting divorced. I didn't say anything, but my heart did leap a bit.
I know, it may have been a slip of the tongue on her part. On the other hand, might be the first crack. Or, I might be on crack and desperate for any positive sign.
She also gave me a good hug before going to bed.
BD
Wow! You really are a beautiful butterfly! Nice work.
Always a word of caution--you seem to be doing very, very well. Try not to be discouraged if progress is followed by two steps back. It seems to be a common pattern.
It is very encouraging that you two are able to be such good friends.
Thanks, Delia.
In many ways, the lack of arguments and any bad feelings towards each other has made this more difficult for me to go through over the past few months.
Thanks for the reminder about the backsliding. I'm not too excited by the slight opening, but I am hopeful. I'll do my best to keep an even keel.
She's going out with co-workers tomorrow night for a bday. The OM still works in the same building. I managed to refrain from asking if he'll be there. I've decided that I just have to trust her. Anything that she would do with him would be her problem, not mine (not that I thinkg she will). And now, I'm not going to think about that any longer.
BD
BD:
I know what you are saying about the lack of arguments and bad feelings making things more difficult. I find myself in the same situation. We still get along very well as friends. There is not a person on this planet that I would rather spend time with. That is what makes it so hard. Part of me wishes that I could resent her like she says that she resents me so that the time apart would be easier. But it just does not happen. I love her too much.
Anybody have any thoughts on the following? Could my W be softening/reconsidering?
July 18
Had all day meetings yesterday, first to plan out my Nov/Dec issue with my associate editor and then strategy meetings around various content products (basically listen to our sales team piss and moan about how hard it is to sell our content products. Grrrrrrr.) OK, it wasn't that bad, but I sometimes want to punch them right in the head. OK, so in meetings from 7:30 to 6:10. Drove to Arthur Murray for my dance lesson (first lesson free as the ad says) as part of my GAL program. I've always wanted to learn to dance, but been afraid of looking like a fool. Decided last week to say 'eff it' and give it a shot. [One of my regrets in life is not learning to tango with my W (granted would have been difficult since I was in grad school in DC and my wife was in Baton Roughe at the time) and busting out the tango about 30 seconds into a sappy ol' first dance wedding song for our first dance. Anyhoo.] A little nervous, because other than the Bart Funky Dance (so named in honor of my college roomate who, being very fond of the herb, would break out some strange hybrid of the twist when very happy from aforementioned herb. Generally followed by a Cheeto treat.), I can't dance. At all.
So, my instructor was a young, VERY attractive young lady. That made me at once a bit more nervous, but was very condusive to a PMA. We spend 45 minutes going over a few basic steps -- waltz, fox trot (I think) and Swing 1 (very basic on that). I had a blast. While she may have been being kind, and as an editor I kind of have a permanent BS meter from always having to deal with marketing people, she did say that I had a good sense of rhythm and it did feel pretty good to move around a little like that. So I signed up for lessons for the next three months. Going to learn the basics for most of ballroom dancing and a little salsa and swing. Looking forward to shaking my groove thing.
By the time that was over, it was about 8:15 or so. Dropped by a bookstore to check to see if my favorite Civil War mag was out yet. It was, so picked up a copy. Then, since my W's bday is today, I went to Safeway to pick up Juju Fruit and other assorted candy and flowers for my W (per my girls' instructions). I had already bought her a battery starter (can plug in to the cig lighter in a car to jump it). Not romantic, but she's killed two batteries in a year, so practical. Plus, the woman is extremely difficult to buy for. While on the way out of Safeway, I decided to walk to the beer store around the corner to check for any new Dogfish Head beers. Saw my W heading into safeway. She was wearing a new sundress and looking very fetching. Told her hello, you look lovely. She asked my about the dance class. Told her it was fun, signed up for lessons, etc. She went into Safeway, I went into the booze store. She said she looked for me, but I had headed home -- wnated to get the flowers inside and hide them for the morning (silly, but wanted to surprise her a little).
Got home. Both tired. Fixed myself something to eat. She came downstairs to tell me good night and gave me a kiss on the lips, a first in a while, before going upstairs to bed. I think she did it on purpose, though I may have been turning toward her. Regardless, she could have pulled back and didn't (she has in the past).
So, I said to myself, "hmmmmm, that was curious."
July 19.
Meetings again. Left at 6:30. Went upstairs before I left to tell her happy birthday. Her kneck was bothering her, offered to help, but she said she'd just lay there until the advil kicked in. Sent her an email around 11 asking if she was OK. She responded saying yes and with a few lines of idle chit-chat. I had offered to take her out tonight, but she wanted Popeyes of all things (not that I'm complaining, luv that chicken). Picked that up for her on the way home. Both tired again, so just some basic, light, H and W, how was your day chatter.
Now's where I get confused. Wished her goodnight and then called our girls to wish them a good night. Our youngest wanted to talk to Mama, so brought the phone upstairs. After a minute or two, W hung up. We chatted for a few seconds, I wished her good night again, and then she blurted out an "I love you" (first time saying that since mid-April). I told her ILY, gave her a hug and went back downstairs. She's had one beer (not a big deal) and some advil, so I know she's not hammered.
On the one hand, I want to be excited. On the other hand, it might've just been a slip. Am I reading too much into this? Is it a positive baby step? A sign of cracking of resolve to move forward with the D? Habit?
I can say that I've been more myself with her in the past few days I've been home than I have in quite a while. Calm, funny, loving, not clingy, really just wanting to talk to her.
Feeling a little dazed and confused,
BD
H,
I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which she says "I love you" and it's not a good sign. Coming up blank. "I love you" is a good sign. Rome wasn't built in a day. So far, so good. Glad you didn't screw up the birthday. Keep going, and take it slow. Still do not rush into relationship talks.
Thanks, Sara.
You're right. Thanks for the sanity check. It's just after 3 solid months of a large, thick wall that I've been banging my head against, the recent kindness and looseness from my W have me confused and not wanting to build up too much hope.
I guess I'm reminded of something I read somewhere, the door to our hearts open out and you can't get in by pushing, they have to be opened by the other person from the inside. Maybe it is opening a crack. Maybe there's something to this DBing stuff after all
BD
Nice metaphor, I hadn't heard that one before. I was reading through your thread and was struck by the part where you say love is a decision. YES! That's exactly it. When you decide to love someone, and you act in loving ways, then love grows. It's nurturing, like feeding and watering a plant. I love the book The Little Prince, by A. de Saint-Exupery. He makes that point. The Prince loves the rose, not because the rose is nice, because she isn't, but because of what he has put into the rose.
Your wife has built walls, and they give her a feeling of safety. You must work slowly and steadily. Only she can really break down the wall, but you can give her the desire to emerge from behind it.
Don't forget those raw oysters on a half shell. The food of love.
DB, I agree with Sara! Hearing "I love you" from someone who hasn't said it, and has said ILYBINILWY has to be a good sign. When I read your posts I can sense the acceptance you seem to have for where things are right now and what you have to do to change them. Your words almost come across as serene - it must really be coming across in your external PMA as well.
I'll definitely be checking in to see what the next few days bring! Here's hoping for more baby steps and limited backslides
Sara/Mama, Thanks, ladies,
I'm not familiar with the book you mention, but I also think of "The Giving Tree" by Shel Silverstein (also wrote a song for Johnny Cash). For some reason, when I think of the heart/door/open out, I also think of the Far Side cartoon of the kid pushing on the "School for the GIfted" door and the door has a "pull" sign on it.
I really do believe that love is a decision. Maybe not entirely. I don't think you can force yourself to make those 'in love' feelings out of nothing, but I really do think that once you get deep in a relationship, you wake up every day and unconsciously/consciously decide to stay in it and act like you're in love. We're all here because somewhere along the line, we stopped treating and acting toward our partners like we loved them -- at least to some degree.
Yes, Mama, I feel like in the past week or so, I've really gotten to a point where I can accept that my W might leave me. I really believe that I was clueless (up until five weeks ago tomororw, as a matter of fact) about my role in the relationship and that neither I nor my W could have been happy before I had my epiphany (man, that sounds a little arrogant). Hope it's not too late for us, and maybe things are shifting in her heart, but I'm starting to make peace with the idea that our M might end. I wouldn't say I'm serene, but I'm more ME than I've been in quite a while. And that feels pretty damn good.
Well, it's really just tomorrow. She flies to New Orleans early Saturday (7 a.m. flight from BWI, blech), so I'm free as a bird for 10 days. If she calls once or twice while she's down there, I will take that as a tremendously positive sign. Fingers crossed.
BD
Your wife has built walls, and they give her a feeling of safety. You must work slowly and steadily. Only she can really break down the wall, but you can give her the desire to emerge from behind it.
Sara, I really like the way you put that. Thanks.
Heim,
We have to get together and discuss this sometime. I feel and act the same way you do. I like video games(360, PS3, I have them all) and I have interest in the civil war. Of course it's hard not to...living near Gettysburg, Antietam, South Mountain and Monocacy.
Things seem to be really going well for you. You seem like you have really changed. Keep it up. Your W definitly sounds like she is unsure. I can't see anyone wanting a divorce that says I love you and gives you a kiss on the lips. Maybe she is testing you and testing her own feelings. I wish mine would do the same. This is your thread so I'll keep my crap on my thread.
I'm pulling for you!
Matt
Matt,
In my head, I know that she sounds unsure. I just don't want to read too much into the situation and get crushed again. So, not going to put the wall back up around my heart and going to keep on keeping on.
Tried to send you a private message but is was locked. Send me one. Here's my message:
Matt,
Never could bite the bullet and get the PS3, opted for the 360, especially once I found out that the next GTA is a simultaneous platform release.
At any rate, yeah, we could get together. Be good to compare notes. My too closest friends have been tremendously supportive, but they're in happy relationships. The bastards.
Thinking of hiking around the battlefield at Gettysburg on Sunday. Icecream. Maybe a stop at the toy soldier shop. Just so you know, I'm not a driver usually. I'll walk for 6 or 7 miles around the field. Not sure which section this time, thinking Culps hill or the circuit from the visitors center to Round tops and back across Pickett's (er, Longstreet's) charge.
BD
Heimlich,
You are doing fine.
The kiss and the "I love you" are excellent signs.
Now...don't blow it by chasing again. Let her come to you. YOU have a good time and care for yourself.
--Theoden
Heim,
I just wanted to check and see how your weekend was. I don't think anybody can send a private message. I think that function has been disabled. Any news on the R front? How was Gettysburg? Did you make it to Devils' Den? I grew up about 10 minutes from Gettysburg.
Take Care,
Matt
Oh by the way....The last time I checked Theoden was the King of Rohan not Aragorn....Muster the Rohirrim.
Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
Now doesn't THAT get your blood moving in the morning.
Thanks, gentlemen, for the encouragement.
Nothing much new to report on the R front. She left early Sat. morning (7 am flight), so I drove her to BWI. I'm a zombie in the morning, so nothing in the way of conversation there. Gave me a quick hug before walking into the terminal. I had offered to help carry her bags for her, but they were light enough that she could do it herself. Didn't push it. Didn't push the hug. She's a nervous traveller, so stayed out of her way Friday night as she packed. Might have been my imagination, but she seemed to be pulling back a little that night, but she's always done that prior to travel. Hug and a kiss on the cheek before bedtime.
She said she was going to schedule a mediation session before she left. Never said that she had or hadn't, so maybe she is starting to change her mind. Regardless, I've finally gotten to the point where I know I'm going to have a good life either way. I just hope she chooses to remain in it.
Since then, short conversations on the phone before handing over to the kids. No change from the 6 weeks I was in LA on that count. Would love to continue the light conversations we've been having all week, but she doesn't seem interested.
Matt, drop me a line at duhonius@gmail.com.
Realized that my GAL activities for the weekend were pretty nerdy. I slept through the dance class I wanted to go to at 10 on Sat. So, went out and bought Harry Potter (the most well-written of the seven, probably the best over-all as well. Though it is a shame that the sense of wonder from the first 2 or 3 were lost over the series.) Sat outside Saturday afternoon on the deck, had a little gin, and read HP. Was nice. Finished Harry Potter and took a walk around Gettysburg on Sunday. Very good ranger program, a 2 hour battlewalk over the path of the Pettigrew/Trimble half of Longstreet's attack. Always amazed at how slight differences in the ground can make such major impacts in the way that a battle will turn. History and exercise, love it.
BD
Inspired by a post on CVA's thread about his W repairing her wedding ring and wearing it afterwards, I decided to take a peek into my W's jewelry box. Much to my surprise, and muted delight, her ring wasn't in there. Looks like she took it to Louisiana with her. Or, the pessimist in me says, she's hocked it (no, don't think she really did that).
Without getting my hopes up too much, I'm beginning to think that she may be rethinking this whole D thing. There's only been a few VERY tiny glimmers of hope, but since there was no indication of ANY hope for so long, I'll take whatever I can get. Now the trick is not to spin some grand reconciliation fantasy in my head for when she returns with the girls in 8 days. Though I fervently hope I see the ring back on her finger, that'd be fan-effing-tastic.
BD
H,
If you and your wife have not taken a vacation in New Orleans in a while, you should schedule one. My husband and I went to New Orleans for a weekend last month. It was the best vacation we have had in 20 years! We stayed at hotels downtown and wandered the Quarter like tourists. Ate at Nola's and K Paul's, drinks at the Napoleon House, beignets, etc. It was so romantic. And we lived there for 24 years. But visiting was the best. All the old memories came flooding back, and they were of the two of us together. Myabe New Orleans can be the charm for you too.
Sara,
We actually did that about 4 years ago. It was a blast. I went to school at Southern Miss and she's from Metarie, but it's amazing the things you don't do when you live close to such a city. It was great to walk around like tourists for 5 days, without kids. K Paul's was awesome too. Was also nice that we actually had money to spend (in college, focused on eating as cheaply as possible so as to buy as many pints as possible at O'Flaherty's). That said, there's currently no chance of getting her to go on vacation with me when I can't get her to agree to let me take her out for dinner or join me for a dance lesson.
Hopefully, we'll get to that point again. I hope to take a vacation with her next summer, that's one of my long range goals. Two options -- a sausage eating/beer drinking trip across Germany or a return visit to the French Quarter. I'm just trying to do what I can to make that a possibility.
Oh, and if you ever go back, the gumbo at Olivier's is the best I've ever had. Even better than mine, and I make a mean gumbo.
BD
Overanalyzing a bit. Anyone have any thoughts as to whether these are possible changes in my W's thinking?
Going round and round in my head about the very few things my W said/did last week that I took as positive:
Tuesday -- during mediation/D talk, said that she would make the apt but that we could cancel it (first time ANY hint that there was a possibility of anything other than D
Wed -- Full hug/kiss on the lips
Thursday -- Got an ILY
Over the weekend, looked in her jewelry box and noticed that her ring wasn't there (she's always kept it there, unless she's hocked it, I'm assuming she took it to Louisiana)
My paranoia is this. I got this email from her last Monday (before these things all happened) (those of you who are bored/sleepy can read my reply below):
No, I'm not interested. There is nothing you can say that will change
>my mind. I have thought about this thoroughly and completely for
>awhile now. I have nothing left in me to re-ignite. I want to be
>your friend--nothing more. I want you to let me go. You can't force
>or push me to love you, which is what I am feeling from you. Try, try,
>try=push, push, push. You know me, if I want to do something, I will
>do it and nothing will keep me from doing it. I don't need to be told
>or convinced by anyone what to do.
>
And my reply:
I know there is nothing I can say to change your mind, nor am I trying to. One of my biggest faults is that I turn inward and rely on myself to sort things out. That's what I did regarding our relationship. What I discovered is that I didn't have all the answers. How I was behaving toward you was wrong. I wouldn't have been able to understand that without the reading that I've done. You said yesterday that I need to get help. I agree. And I have been, the books that I have been reading have been tremendously helpful in getting ME to be a better person. Yes, they are focused on making the marriage better. However, they all start with the following common advice -- you have to be the best person YOU can be and that you have to accept that the relationship may be over. I'm just beginning my journey, but I know it's one that's going to make me the man I want and need to be. Not for you. Not for the girls. THough that second, especially right now, is important. But for me.
I understand how determined you can be. That's one of the qualities about you that attracted me in the first place. But you also refuse to consider other courses of action once you make your mind up, or even as you're making your mind up. In that, you're somewhat like me in that you put blinders on. Like me, you turn inward and don't listen to anyone else or only to what you want to hear that confirms the direction you have chosen. Please don't take this to mean that I don't think you considered your decision carefully. I know that you have. I'm trying to make the point that you may not have considered it from all angles. Again, I am speaking from personal experience on this. To date, this is the biggest decision either of us have made in our lives. As I've said, I don't want to walk away knowing that there was more that could be done. Your refusal to even acknowledge the possibilty that things can change is the flip side of your determination, and also one of your biggest faults.
And you're wrong, I'm not trying to push you to love me. I fully understand that that is not possible. I don't want you as my companion in life if you don't want to be around me. What I am trying to do is to get us to focus on each other -- at the same time, with full honesty -- to see if those feelings can be reignited. I don't know that they can be. I do know that there are ways to act toward each other, slowly and steadily, to see if those feelings do return. THAT's what I'm asking for. Not a guarantee that everything will be OK. A chance for things to be OK. No, not even OK. I chance for things to be great. I'm not interested in settling for what we had for the past 4 years. I want something better. And, yes, I believe with all my heart and soul that we can have a great relationship and marriage.
I keep hearing you say that any effort/trying is going to be perceived by me as evidence that everything is OK. I've NEVER said that. There are no guarantees. However, I believe that with us focused on each other with 100% honesty, our lives could be great together. Things might not work out that way, I just think it's a damn shame that we'll never know.
Eventually, if we continue on this path, we'll fall in love with someone else. We may be wiser and avoid many of the issues that have caused us to end up where we are today. Or we might not and be having this conversation with someone else a decade or more from now. What I'm trying to say is that, knowing that that is going to happen, I would rather make every effort to see if (if, if, if, not for sure) WE can fall in love as a couple again. To me, there are more positives than negatives in the way our lives have developed. All I can do is SHOW you, by actions, the man I can be.
I'm sorry you feel the way that you do. I am terribly sorry and upset with myself for the way that I acted toward you and made you feel. I'm NOT trying to manipulate you. THis is from my heart.
Ah, crap. She made scheduled the mediator meeting for August 16. Expected, but still sucks.
BD
Don't stress too hard that she made the appt. That's all it is, an appointment. She already mentioned that it could be canceled, so look at it as her back up plan. If she is seeing changes and still confused she is going to do things to reassure herself that she can still get out. BUT, look at it as if she is considering trying but wants to throw out a safety net before she does.
Also, its a mediation appt right, not a D court date!
Remember to try and look at the positives.
Steel
heimlich,
i think the signs you listed are great. i'm not to sure about the email exchange, w seems pretty short on words. but its been said all around these posts, i would put more stock in her actions and less in her words.
people will act on their feelings, but words can be analyzed and carefully chosen. just give her the space she wants, and keep up your changes and you will see her changes, and at the least your making great changes for you.
well maybe we are both nerdy but the weekend sounded like neat things to me. then again my wife is a women who could care less about the history on a trip and i'm standing there reading/listening about what happened on this spot. haha
Atlas and Steel,
Thanks for the sanity check. Much needed.
Words of wisdom from Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy: DON'T PANIC!
I sent her a quick reply along the lines of, "I don't want to seem anxious to start this process, but do we need to do anything prior to the meeting?" Since one of her concerns was that I was going to go kicking and screaming into the D, this is kindof a 180 for me. Just hope it doesn't backfire.
Kind of a gut check last night, had the bottle of whiskey in my hand after I got the email. A few months ago, probably would've started pouring. Read about George Washington instead.
Atlas, open invite if you're ever in the DC area. All kinds of history and I'm a big sign reader myself.
bD
Hi Heimlich--
There ought to plenty of opportunities during the mediation meeting to exhibit some 180's--maybe get in some affirmations, show as much calm as you can.
I know how you must feel--you knew it was coming, but you were hoping...Still, remember how long this process can be. You're trying to change someone else's mind, mainly by your own actions--but also by allowing that person the freedom to explore life without you.
Your wife seems to take a certain pride in her commitment to her word and the relentlessness of her follow-through. So mediation she must have, if only for her own pride. She is probably still serious about separation, but there are a lot of good signs for you, as well. You have to work on strengthening the doubt which I am sure she is already feeling.
It's impossible to know what someone else is thinking, but it's interesting to speculate. I sense that your wife is less sure of her course of action than she was when she wrote you the E-mail you've quoted. And even in the E-mail, she sounds like she's trying to buck herself up with severity.
So just you go into mediation like a DB warrior. You're a natural (except for sleeping through dance class).
By the way, I think I'll try your technique next time I have a whiskey bottle in hand. I'll just go read about George Washington.
Heimlich,
Might have to take you up on that offer. I have a conference in DC in September. Right now the schedule is really tight though, but you never know what will happen.
I actually had one of the best tours of DC a few years ago with some friends of w's family I had just met. I kid you not, we are driving around dc with a cop and firefighter, beer in car, and stopping at accident scenes and other police vehicles to talke with them. Apparently, when your on that side of the law you are the law. I thought for sure we would be arrested at some point through the night.
I was there for the FIL's retirement, and actually got a tour of the pentagon post 911, which doesn't happen very often.
By the way, I think I'll try your technique next time I have a whiskey bottle in hand. I'll just go read about George Washington.
Heehee, that came out unintionally kindof funny. Seriously, GW was a pretty fascinating guy. Very aware of his finances, lost more battles than he won, oversaw a massacre that contributed to the beginning of the French and Indian War, came out of four military disasters (two his fault) as a young man with a better reputation than he went in with, ability to learn from his mistakes, and a keen sense of how to play politics and furhter his ambitions while seeming not too. Also, funny, he was 6' 2" with broad shoulders and hips. He always complained that his clothes (ordered from London) never fit, but he always gave instruction to make clothes for someone 6 foot even with regular proportions. Ah, vanity.
Anyway, I hope that my wife is trying to buck herself up. I am getting mixed messages and I am considering mediation as a continuation of DBing. And, I'm going to five dance classes this week, thank you. Getting the hang of the basic waltz, but the swing stuff is killing me. Feel like I've got three left feet.
Atlas,
Drop me a line at duhonius@gmail.com. I can't replicate the experience of drinking and driving WITH A COP. That must've been surreal. But, if you're interested in anything in particular in the area, lemme know. Curious, what kind of conference? IT?
BD
So, did he have wooden teeth? I never really admired GW. But I like reading Civil War letters--generals really knew how to write in those days!
Nope, some strange contraption of ivory/bone and metal. Dentures used to also contain real teeth, but don't think his did.
Grant's autobiography is really good, or at least the 60 or so pages I got into it before I got distracted by all of this stuff last October.
BD
Hey H
Just getting caught up on your sitch. I am laughing about the whiskey comment. Prior to this whole sitch I used to be avid wine drinker...buts its been about 2 months since I indulged. I never realized how much I drank until I noticed that my wine case had about 2 cases worth of wine in it. I used to run out even though I get a case a month delivered.
I am really sorry that your going through this with your W. I hope the tide changes and she decides your M is worth working on. Thank you for all your imput on my sitch as well. You advice is always welcomed.
Hey H
My thread locked after your last commentary.
What is ROTFL? I am sure there is a dirty word in there somewhere!
CVA,
ROTFL -- roll on the floor laughing.
We use this one alot in work-related IM's when our senior team makes another dumb-ass decision.
I'm sure I could think of something semi-filthy for it, but drawing a blank at the moment.
And, sweet, I locked one of GD's threads as well. My new goal in life, lurk and pounce on long threads to get them to lock up.
Had a rough night last night. For some reason, just got angry about the whole situation. Why am I doing this? Does she know what she's doing to our girls? Why is she being so effing stubborn? Why didn't she just tell me she was unhappy instead of talking to and screwing another man? Couldn't shake it. Ended up having a few drinks. Was too whipped from work to read and was watching TV, so one drink became two, then another. Blech. At least stopped there before I got too blasted. As I type this, it was probably spurred by knowing that she scheduled the mediation to move the D forward and that I didn't get a chance to talk to my girls last night. She knows I mute my cell when I host webinars and sometimes forget to turn the volume back on. Intead of calling a few times (I almost always notice the vibrate eventually), she just called once, then dropped the girls off with her parent's neighbors (W and in-laws went out to dinner last night), without trying more than once. Probably overreacting, but struck me as inconsiderate.
Just venting a bit. The mediation apt makes this all very real and I'm increasingly frustrated and disappointed in my W for not being willing to give it a real effort. Hell, she's even said she didn't give it her all before.
Ah, effe it for today. Back to work and a power lunch dance class at 2.
Hope everyone is having a good day,
BD
H,
I've got nada in the form of resources for splitting time with the kids. Really think about this schedule that W and I have decided on -- I'll try to make it more user-friendly!
Me with kids:
Wednesday, Thursday every week
W with kids:
Monday, Tuesday every week
W and I:
Friday, Saturday, Sunday every OTHER week
With this schedule, we both get every other weekend to GAL, but still have the kids for 2 days on those weeks. Then we have them for 5 days the other week, so we get lots of quality time with them, and get to do fun weekend things with them too.
I know of another couple that alternates weeks like you are thinking about doing, but have the kids stay with the other parent on the Wednesday of that week, so the kids at least have contact with the other parent in the middle of that seven day stretch.
I think that it is mentioned that the alternating week schedule isn't the best for the kids (younger ones in particular, though) because of how long it is before seeing the other parent. For young kids this is not the healthiest, but I would talk to a counselor/child psychologist to get a good explanation for the reasoning here.
Hope this helps!
GD
H
We all feel ya as they say. As Nomo pts out, these feelings are to be expected.
I have a serious question for you. Given this is going to Mediation, have you REALLY tried DBing full force? I can say I dont think I have. What would you have to lose at this pt?
Heimlich,
Hang in there. Don't let the mediation upset your effort. Some things have to be taken care of in life and that is one of them. Doesn't mean you have to stop DB'ing or throw your hands in the air. Just keep it going.
CVA/Atlas,
Thanks. Knowing it and feeling it are two different things though, eh? It stinks, we all know it stinks, I'm back on an even keel today. Just felt overwhelmed last night. Lots of deadlines at work, so some additional stress there.
I guess I've only really been DBing for a few weeks. I apologized to my W on June 16 and had really finally understood my role in all of this. Had only one or two R talks the following week, then drove to Louisiana with the girls. Read DR and most of DB while down there for three weeks. Drove back up on July 15 and have really been DBing only since then. Really only 6 days in person with my wife. I have been attempting many of the DBing techniques on my own before then, but was too hung up on the R talks and, most importantly, hadn't focused on me.
I do think there are some positives and I have a lot of faith in us and that we could work it out. Just gotta be patient. Ohm, Ohm, Ohm.
Need to start re-reading and working on goals for when she returns next Wed.
Thanks again,
BD
Heimlich--
If you get a chance, check out Irish's thread in the Separated forum. Built4speed posted a link for her--a DB success story--which I think would be helpful for you to read. I found it helpful. Sorry I couldn't just post the same link here, but I'm kind of an idiot.
Thanks, Delia. I had found that the first day I came her and couldn't find it again. Saved and printed, it's great stuff.
Hope all is well with you,
BD
PS. The button at the top left of the 'message reply' box will allow you to add a link (the one with the blue circle, a globe I guess, adn the little infinity looking symbol).
Hey there. Glad you stopped the boozing before you lost control. Good DB'ing..changing old negative habits. Anyway I understand where you are coming from with the visitation. Its not easy. I hope you work something out soon. I like GD's plan myself and hope thats what I end up working out with the H.
As far as you being angry about the A, you are justified.
can't put myself in your shoes, but as a WAW I can see how easy this trap would be to fall into. Your H isn't meeting your needs, you feel desparate. Some of us just leave, but others go this route. I guess the main thing to try and remember is that the A, wasn't about you or your fault. Your W did this on her own. I hope you can find the strength to get over the anger and hurt that this caused.
Hugs!
Thanks. I've really cut way back on the drinking. I love beer (and wine and scotch and whiskey), but have cut it out almost entirely as I continue to drop weight.
I'm liking GD's plan as well. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it does make a lot of sense.
I'm actually over the A. I'll never understand why she pulled the trigger on that and didn't talk to me. We were each other's first (I was a bit of a late bloomer) and I think partly why she did it was curiousity. Back in the winter/spring of 06 I had really started to make an effort to pull out of my funk -- began training for the Marine Corp Marathon and stopped, or thought I had, pressuring for sex. Wasn't perfect, but I had realized a problem and was starting to address it. Regardless, I understand now how she ended up feeling like she felt/feels. The anger I feel now is more about her selfishness in not truly acknowledging her role in our marriage difficulties, she's truly remorseful for the A, but hasn't really dug deeper than that. And, rather than doing the heavy lifting of trying to make our M right, she's running. That's what's pissing me off.
Ohm, Ohm, Ohm (or is it Om, Om, Om?) Isn't Ohm a unit of electrical measure or something?
Anyway, hugs right back atcha. Really interested in hearing how your H takes it when you lay out how you feel to him.
BD
H
Can you tell it is 2-3 of us on the boards right now! I am waiting on a deal to happen, what is your excuse!!!
plain 'ol procrastination.BD
Our anniversary is Monday. Do I call?
I sent a very short note, cribbed from someone else on the board, that'll get there Tuesday (I was thinking Tuesday was the 30th). "Come what may; thank you for the something, laughter, and memories. And, thank you for loving me. With love, BD"
Put it on a blank card (cartoon image of a hedgehog holding a flowing on the outside). Nothing overtly romantic there.
BD
heimlich,
i think i would acknowledge it, but follow her lead on it. have a back up just in case she shows or wants to do something. but don't go overboard in case nothing happens.
BD and DB,
Da*n! You really were having a bady day or night the other day. I was just reading your post.
You must remember you can't believe half of what they say or do or is that 90%. She will come around!
Don't forget the positives before she left kiss, hug, ILY.
there must be something about that 12-14 year anniversary period!
Will she be back in MD for your anniversary?
There must be something about that 12-14 year anniversary period.
Or maybe it's just that age period.
I'll buy you a beer for your anniversary. I know you said you love Pabst Blue Ribbon or was that the beast (Milwaukee's Best)
, whichever one it was, it's on me!
Now that's something to look forward to.
Matt
Thanks, guys. No, she'll still be in Louisiana on Monday. Coming back with the girls Wed night. I'm hoping she'll come around, but I'm really starting to come to grips with things not working out. Groping my way to some sort of zen/buddhist thing or something.
Atlas, buying a present just doesn't feel right to me this year, so I'm not going to. I think she'd view it as pushing anyway. Though I have been thinking of getting her a massage. She enjoyed that for her bday last year (a pro, not me, though I'm not half bad).
Matt, you're killing me. I was a Natural Light man in college. 7 bucks or so a case and you couldn't tell how bad it tasted if it was really really cold. Since then, I've got to admit, I'm a beer snob. Especially since I don't drink that often any longer, if I'm drinking a beer, it's gonna be a good one.
BD
I think she might consider it pushing. I don't know, did you discuss your anniversary before she left?
For the record, I used to drink those snobby beers but not anymore. I got used to the cheap one's. The champaigne of beers....The High Life!
Matt
Just a quick journal entry.
W and girls have been in Louisiana since last Sat, returning Wed night, so all has been quiet on the R front. Have only spoken to W briefly 4 or 5 times during that time.
I've spent most of that time trying, semi-successfully, to catch up on a variety of work items as well as a large freelance edit job I picked up.
A little bummed today. It's our 12th wedding anniversary. 12 years ago, we were leaving our reception to go to the Lafitte Guest House on Bourbon Street for a few nights before our honeymoon in Belize. I'm just remembering how happy and in love we were and, well, I just don't have the words to describe how it feels now. Disillusioned. Melancholy. Disappointed, both with her and me.
Man, how the hell did we get here? How do you let yourself forget to treat the most important person in your life like the most important person in your life?
Starting to get a little tense for Wed. Things were easy between us when she left, not sure how they're going to be when she returns. At any rate, looking forward to seeing my girls. They occassionally bug the hell out of me (and I really do feel like I missed out on a lot of very cool boy toys. Barbies and My Little Pony. Pure evil.), but I do enjoy their company.
All in all, I'm feeling OK with where I am and who I am (and who I'm moving toward being). I've rediscovered the confidence that I lost. Didn't have a good week of exercise, but haven't gained any weight. Starting to remember I am pretty damn good at my job. I'm reasonably intelligent. Kind. Try to be understanding. A bit shy. Semi-funny. Able to hold up my end of a conversation and keep it interesting. Just miss her a lot. In the past, I've always looked forward to seeing her again, even if we had just been apart for a day. I still do, but, as you all know, it's not quite the same, is it?
Did any of those positive things the week before she left mean anything? Are we still on the fast track to D. Am I going to have to start eating lots of peanut butter sandwiches again and move into an apartment? I know I'm going to do everything I can to show her she's making a huge mistake if things go that way. On the flip side, I know that I'm making my way toward being able to have a really strong R in the future, with my W or someon else. In a weird way, what she did was a good thing (though I could have done without the jumpstart of an actual A). It did get me out of my rut. Would probably still be drifting otherwise.
Anyway, need to put in some edits and get some sleep. Reading "Blue Ocean Strategy" for an internal marketing iniative at work. That oughta do it.
BD
PS. Miller is neither "beer" nor "champaigne". I don't know if I can even talk to you any more. Damn.
BD,
Why spend more on something I don't like to drink?!
Well if it means anything coming from me......Happy Anniversary!
Next years will be better.
Yes, I think the positives did mean something. She may be confused or unsure but at least there are positives. I don't think she would have done or said those things if she didn't want to. That means a lot!
I know you are nervous about tomorrow but everthing will be okay. I get a little nervous every evening that I go home. Just be your (distantly) lovable, DB'ing self. Don't want to pressure her.
I agree that it is a good thing that this happened. I feel the same way. I think God's ultimate plan is to make our R better and stronger and we definitly needed this. I needed this to better myself and to see things more clearly.
You may not be spending your anniversary with your W but you will be meeting me for the first time today. Oh God that's depressing! Never mind
Matt
Heimlich:
First off, Happy Anniversary. Next year's will be better. (Mine is coming up August 20th so I will be where you are soon)
A little bummed today. It's our 12th wedding anniversary. 12 years ago, we were leaving our reception to go to the Lafitte Guest House on Bourbon Street for a few nights before our honeymoon in Belize. I'm just remembering how happy and in love we were and, well, I just don't have the words to describe how it feels now. Disillusioned. Melancholy. Disappointed, both with her and me.
I know what you mean. We were married 2 years ago. Kind of shows you how quickly things can/will change. I am reminded of something in the books that Michelle says. If the feelings were there to begin with and since the wedding have changed, that means they can change back. Just keep doing what you are doing.
Man, how the hell did we get here? How do you let yourself forget to treat the most important person in your life like the most important person in your life?
I don't know what to say. Just that it happens and we are left with trying to pick up the pieces that our actions have created. But we are on the right track.
Starting to get a little tense for Wed. Things were easy between us when she left, not sure how they're going to be when she returns. At any rate, looking forward to seeing my girls. They occassionally bug the hell out of me (and I really do feel like I missed out on a lot of very cool boy toys. Barbies and My Little Pony. Pure evil.), but I do enjoy their company.
Things will work out fine when they get back as long as you keep a PMA and Act as If. And it will be good for you to see your D's. I can imagine how much you must have missed them.
Just miss her a lot. In the past, I've always looked forward to seeing her again, even if we had just been apart for a day. I still do, but, as you all know, it's not quite the same, is it?
I know exactly what you are saying. I still look forward to seeing her even when it has only been a couple of hours. Yes, things are different, because she has made it clear that she no longer misses me when we are apart. That she doesn't have that same aniticipation that she used to have when we were apart for awhile and about to see eachother. That does not mean that you feeling excited is wrong. Use the excitement to improve your PMA. Get excited to see her, but try not to get overexcited. Does that make sense?
Did any of those positive things the week before she left mean anything? Are we still on the fast track to D.
I am sure the positives meant something. Just remember that often the positives are followed by a brief pullback. Whether or not you are on the fast track, you can't really control. Just try and not do anything to advance the D. And use the time that is created to keep up the GAL, 180's and PMA. It seems like there are some positives in your situation. Concentrate on that. Baby steps.
Hey there. Just wondering how your day went yesterday?
I know it probably got the wheels turning. Hope you did something positive for yourself instead of focusing on the what if's...
Had a good/bad day. Woke up with vertigo (for me, eyes can't focus on anything. Room spins. It's like when you're so drunk taht you have to put your foot on the floor when laying in bed to stop the room from spinning except that the room never stops spinning.) Passed by 2 or so. Actually had the pleasure of meeting Matt for coffee at 4. That was good.
Wheels are turning slow, so haven't commented on your thread, but will soon.
BD
Good morning Heimlich--
You sound like you're not quite on an even keel!
(((Hugs)))
H
Vertigo? What is happening?
CVA
Vertigo is some inner ear thing. I'm not quite sure what sets it off for me (I think some combo of over tired and reading too much online), but basically it's like being dizzy non-stop until it passes. My Mom has it as well (I consider myself lucky, my brother got the migraines. Our youngest bro got neither. Lucky little shiite.)
3 years ago I had it so bad that I literally couldn't stand up. Got out of bed and fell over/down. Laid in bed for three days and just slept/listened to TV with my eyes closed. Anytime I opened my eyes it was like the vertical hold (remember that on TVs?) was off in my life, except the vertical hold was horizontal for me -- if that makes sense.
Still feeling physically a little off-kilter, but much, much better.
BD
Cribbing from Nomo and posting a few things here to refer back to for my own edification.
Think of it like this:
If you want to drive to a beach in Florida, how do you get there? Do you just drive in the general direction and hope it feels right? Of course not! You follow a road map. You have very specific directions and you follow them.
Of course, it is possible to get to your destination without a map, but you'll get there faster and more easily by using one. And if you don't use your map, there's a good chance of not making it there at all, right?
And what if you take a wrong turn along the way? Do you give up and think there's no chance of ever getting to the beach? No! You turn around and find your way back and continue from where you left off.
But what if the road is filled with potholes? It's a bumpy ride and not very comfortable, but it is still clearly the best way to the beach, according to your map. You would still take the road, right?
Now here's a tricky one...A roadblock with no detour. What do you do? You start by turning around, then you break out your map and find a different way to get there!
You probably see where I'm taking this. All you need to do is follow directions. You have your road map...Use it!
If you take a wrong turn, correct for it! Get back on track as soon as possible. You're unfamiliar with your road, so use the map and use it often.
Bumpy ride full of potholes? Deal with the discomfort, knowing that it's still the best way to go.
But what about the road block? You can't pass it. The way you're going isn't working. You can't pass the road block. Time to do a 180! Spin it around, get your map out and try a different way!
Remember to stay fueled up! (Eat, sleep, etc.). DON'T SPEED! Go the limit. If you run out of fuel or go too fast, you'll get yourself into an even bigger mess.
You have the map. You have people (here) to help give you directions where the map is smeared or just doesn't seem to make sense. Use them!
I know it sounds like I'm making it overly simple. And I am. Sometimes breaking things down to their simplest form is what makes them the easiest to understand. Remember that it's your own mind telling you that it can't be that easy.
EAA
Dlt1,
I appreciate your responses to my thread, so I wanted to give back a little!
I am by no means, an expert...But I've had a chance to make some realizations, through trial and error, and I would like to share my thoughts, for what they're worth.
1. STOP TRYING TO FIX YOUR M. Seriously. Think of the M as a piece of paper. Nothing more than a legal document. Instead, remember all of the things that made you and your W sign that legal document. Before anything else, you were a good friend to her, right? Are you being a good friend now? Truly? If say, a male friend of yours was dealing with the death of a close family member, would you feel the need to pressure this friend? Or would you gladly and genuinely respect their space and offer a handshake? I'm assuming the handshake would be enough, even if this was a friend you REALLY cared about. Do that. Be a true friend and realize, for yourself, that the friendship that the M was based on may be more important than the legal document. Looking at it this way can make it easier to back off AND to help yourself. Friends shoudn't be pushy. Friends accept.
Next, remember that it was based on love. Love, love, love. Don't love like a H, love like a family member. Don't express it in words, but in actions. I have absolutely no doubt that your WAW loves you in this way, so be happy with it. Understand that her objective isn't to cause you pain, and be happy with that. Pain is just an unfortunate side effect.
2. FORGIVE! Do it for yourself. Forgive everything that has hurt you and forgive completely. I forgive my WAW every morning when I wake up alone. It works! You will feel better. You can't change what has happened, so don't think about it. If you count the days, the pain will mount up. Just let go of the past and deal with TODAY. Today may hurt too, but don't hurt for yesterday and tomorrow hasn't been written yet. Today is the only thing you have any real control over. Don't forget your ultimate goal, but don't focus on it. Instead, focus on a goal for each day, but remember where you're going. Does that make sense? Focus on happiness today. You can find some, if you look. Focus on that. Be thankful for any happiness and forgive any pain.
3. REMEMBER THAT SHE CANNOT HURT YOU. She already did, and that part is over. She has already told you the most devastating thing she can say, and you're still alive. Any more pain you feel is pain that you allow or even create in yourself. I'm not suggesting that you can always avoid the current pain. Not at all. There will be times when it's too much. But you can realize that it's YOUR pain and your responsibility. Any smile you crack during a day is better than the way you felt when she asked for a D. Don't let you hurt yourself. Only you have control of this.
4. DON'T BLAME HER. Understand that she did not plan this, and it hurts her too. Most likely, she's not trying to punish you by not returning texts or messages. She's just dealing with the pain in the best way she knows how. That's exactly the same thing you're doing. You've just found a better way. Take pride in that. And that's another reason to keep DB'ing! You know that what you're doing is best, so stand by it. She's standing by her way, right? Let her do it. In time, she may discover that your way is better.
5. DON'T CALL, TEXT, ETC. If you must, there had better be a good reason. If you MUST call occasionally, have a good reason. Even if it's a fake reason, make it seem real. Keep it very short and start out as all business. If you have time, make a quick joke or tell a VERY short funny story. If she laughs, be happy. If not, then let her be unhappy and distant. Her reaction shouldn't affect you negatively at all. Regardless of the reaction, get off the phone! Be happy with the moment you had and don't be greedy. Hang up first. It may feel like you're giving up on something that's going well. You're not. You're knowing when to stop it from getting worse. If you hang up while everything seems good, you both win! Both of you will have each had a pleasant experience for the day, and that will be what she remembers of you for the day.
6. LET HER FEEL PAIN. This one has been extraordinarily hard for me. I hate to see W in any kind of pain. My natural instinct is to comfort her and tell her that everything will be okay. But if you do that, you're showing her that she is in charge and you have no control. You're showing her that she has nothing to lose, because you'll always be there. Let her hurt. Let her heart crave happiness. If, like me, you simply can't stand it, change the subject to something lighter. Smile and be happy. She will have to deal with the pain on her own. Remember, the ball is in her court. Don't make it an easy decision for her.
7. BE HAPPY. I know you've read that a thousand times now, but it's true. If you fake it for awhile and make an effort, it will become real for you. You CAN be happy, but you may have to work at it. Find happiness in everything and focus on that. You are the only person that can control your emotions. No one else. So you might as well be happy. Being miserable isn't going to get you anywhere. It won't solve anything. Happiness will, at the very least, make you feel better...And at the most, make you someone your W would like to be with. In either scenario, you end up better than if you remained miserable.
8. CONTINUE WITHOUT CHANGE. Even if you feel that you're getting somewhere, don't change your attitude. If the situation seems to be improving, resist the urge to change your behavior. Keep doing exactly the same thing. It's obviously working, right? Then don't stray from it. I expect that she will be crytal clear when she's ready for the two of you to make a change together. Until then, stick with what you know works...Otherwise, you risk undoing all the good you've done.
You can do this! No matter what, remember that. YOU can.
Best of luck,
EAA
Just a quick journal entry.
I'm just remembering how happy and in love we were and, well, I just don't have the words to describe how it feels now. Disillusioned. Melancholy. Disappointed, both with her and me.
Man, how the hell did we get here? How do you let yourself forget to treat the most important person in your life like the most important person in your life?
In a weird way, what she did was a good thing (though I could have done without the jumpstart of an actual A). It did get me out of my rut. Would probably still be drifting otherwise.
BD
The other day I was driving in my car and Bryan Adams song was playing on the radio which is the one that we danced to at our wedding. You know the one, I'd die for you, walk the line for you then right after came on the Nickleback song Someday. The one that goes how the hell did we wind up like this, why weren't we able to see the signs that we missed and try to turn the table. I was thinking boy these songs couldn't be any more truer of how we started out and how we ended up. It is just amazing what time can do to a R.
I know what you mean about this being weird in a good way. It pulled me out of my rut in the R but now he is done. I pray to God every night that he will wake up my H and have him start to realize what good we had and what good things could be again if we both started trying. I think my H has closed his eyes, head and heart to all of that. How can I expect him to try with me when he isn't even trying with his kids.
A little journaling. 8/1-2/07
Picked up the girls and W from BWI. Plane was delayed out of Nashville, so we didn't get home until about 1:40ish.
W still isn't wearing her ring. That fantasy busted. Didn't expect her to have it on, but still, hurts. Of course got lots of hugs and kisses from the girls. Got the half-way to the side friend hug and a kiss on the cheek from W. Then she made a point to stand away from me. I know this already, but she really is set in her mind that it's over. The worst part is, I still don't have a good reason. She had mentioned in counselling that she could see me changing, but that she just wasn't sure she wanted to be with me anymore. Ouch, but OK, fair enough. But her whole it's over because I don't feel the spark and I can't feel the spark so it's over and you can't work at getting the spark because it might not come back because it's a spark and I don't feel that spark "logic" is really starting to pi . . . er, aggravate me. Lock that thought in a box and throw away the key.
Got home, brought the bags in. Helped the girls get into bed. Went upstairs to get my toothbrush (back to sleeping in the basement) and gave her another quick hug.
Talked to our oldest on the way back, she was asking me what I had done while I was back. I told her I started taking dancing lessons. It was dark, but got a sense of coldness from the W, like she got tense or disapproved or something (remember I had asked her to do this together, as a way to do something together that we always watned to do, but she declined. Actually, she just never responded, didn't even have the courtesy to decline.). Made some idle chit-chat on the way home. Nothing much. She was tired and had been fighting a headache, so wasn't really expecting much interaction from her. No problem with that, but a little interest in how I spent my time would have been nice. No interest expressed by her at all. Well, effe her. Sorry, had to get that out.
Well, tomorrow, er, today is a new day. Guess it's time to start DBing in earnest. I can't even say I'm on a rollercoaster yet, I feel like I'm strapped in and we're going down fairly quickly. Hope there's a bottom and a climb in the future.
Don't know if there are any Chris Rock fans out there, but he's got the bit about married men. One part is, you wake up, look yourself in the mirror and say "Effe you. Effe your dreams and what you want. Now. Let's get out there and make that bitch happy." Now, of course, what I want is to be happy with the lovely woman that I married. That's my dream. But it sure as hell feels a little bit like that right now, doesn't it?
BD
But her whole it's over because I don't feel the spark and I can't feel the spark so it's over and you can't work at getting the spark because it might not come back because it's a spark and I don't feel that spark "logic" is really starting to pi . . . er, aggravate me. Lock that thought in a box and throw away the key.
Heimlich,
I haven't been doing the DBing for as long as you, but my wife has almost the same issue with the 'spark'. Last time we were discussing the R, she had no interest in doing anything about encouraging that spark. Thought it should should just be there and / or come naturally. I was just thinking how difficult it is to get that spark going if you keep dumping water on it. Oh, well.
Last night was a decent night for us as far as talking and physical contact in general. We still sleep in the same bed, so that's a positive, but I guess I need to prepare myself for the potential downslide and take things one step at a time. I'll be going out drinking with a friend tonight, so I'm looking forward to that. It'll be good to get away and maybe have her wondering for a change.
Looks like we have a lot in common as far as the ages, kids, etc. We have a girl and boy ages 8 and 5. I thought it was a seven year itch. I thought it would be pretty solid making it past ten years.
I loved that trip to the beach post!
Got the half-way to the side friend hug and a kiss on the cheek from W. Then she made a point to stand away from me.
That sucks Got plenty of that sort of stuff when W was still at home , try not to let it get to you , it doesnt matter how she feels she not going to show any real affection at this stage.
but a little interest in how I spent my time would have been nice. No interest expressed by her at all.
That goes with the territory as well . Even as things are now My W is so self centred that I could have spent the day shoveling coal in hell and W would say " thats nice , let me tell you about my day blah blah .....)
Had to get that out too
Dave
Heimlich,
I'm sorry it didn't turn out to be a warm and happy homecoming. I know you were hoping for things to be different, but you weren't expecting it so nothing is worse than before right? There were a lot of things that might have been working against you, the traveling, delays, her headache, and it was after 1 am. That's a lot to overcome.
Like you said today is a new day, and you never know which day will be THAT ONE, so keep trying.
In case no one has told you lately, everyone here is pulling for you!
-Steel
H (and others)
I think them not caring what we do all day is maybe the toughest part. Basically, sounds like we are in the same boat the in terms of affection. I dont think any of us understand it, after years of marriage and intimacy, but we all have to accept it or it is going to eat us alive.
CVA
BD,
Sorry things didn't go as planned. Well I don't know if you actually thought things would be better maybe you just hoped they would. Wait a see how today and the rest of the weekend goes. I think we both are going to be in this position for some time. I think it is going to take time. A lot more time then we want to wait anyway. I know there are success stories and there is no reason why we can't be one. I know if both of you give up and don't try then you probably won't have a success.
So get that PMA going, take one day at a time and just decide to be happy no matter what!
You know you will be okay!
Matt
Yeah, I've learned not to talk to my WAW at night after it gets too late. She just shuts down. Ofcourse, we would be willing to talk if it was 4am and we had just got done working for a week straight, but that's just crazy us. Why do we actually care about out M? No resentment there at all
Thanks for the support, folks. Yeah, didn't really expect things to go differently, but would have been nice. No movement forward or back, so, we're exactly where we were when she left.
She did say that it looked like I had lost a little more weight, so that was good (as the girls say, "No more fat daddy").
Had brought a banana for a little snack, but forgot it in the van. Called her just after she left for work to warn her (would've been a lovely smell after 9 hours enclosed in a vehicle parke in 93 degree weather). I was still half-asleep. She apologized for being snippy (which I wasn't picking up at all, she actually sounded in a good mood). Trying to remember if that's different, I think so.
Strapped in for the long haul. About time to reread DR.
BD
CVA,
The lack of affection is killing me. Amazing how much a hug from the person you love makes you feel so much better. Not having that is one of the things I miss the most. That and the casual touching that you have when you're in a long relationship. Having to stop/consider hand placement still just seems bizarre, you know?
BD
Having to stop/consider hand placement still just seems bizarre, you know?
Unfortunately I do know. So stupid.
Yes I know. Just sitting on the couch w/ W last night thinking the same thing.
Having to stop/consider hand placement still just seems bizarre, you know?
Ditto here BD. Last night it was trying to figure out if 2 sort of circular rubs on my lower back by H was an improvement over the 1 longer hug, but only a single circular stroke
Amazing how much a hug from the person you love makes you feel so much better. Not having that is one of the things I miss the most.
Us too!! (Me & Sunny
)
LOL. Oooh boy, needed that.
me, myself, and I
Oh the hand placement things sucks. It is amazing what a hug from the right person can do for you.
Hi Heimlich--
Just remember it takes time. You're doing everything that you need to do. You're doing fine!
CVA,
The lack of affection is killing me. Amazing how much a hug from the person you love makes you feel so much better. Not having that is one of the things I miss the most. That and the casual touching that you have when you're in a long relationship. Having to stop/consider hand placement still just seems bizarre, you know?
BD
BD,
I really know what you are talking about. Not being able to go and just being able to hug your spouse after everything the 2 of you have been thru is just the oddest feeling. We have been thru so much with the births of our 2 children, sitting in the NICU with our son after he was born and now to him it's as if none of that happened and we are only strangers to one another.
Oh man
That brought a tear. I went through that one w/ W with 2 of ours.
OK, Think positive everyone!
Oh, man, sorry to bring everyone down. I'm feeling pretty good. It's just not having seen her for 10 days, I had to restrain myself from giving her a big hug and kiss when I first saw her. Just felt . . . strange. A little sad, but also a little anger on my part because I'm increasingly realizing that she could choose to try to make our M work and she isn't. Still, was upbeat with her anyway.
Kelly/CVA, we were fortunate in that both girls were born without any trouble, but our oldest had torticullus (extra tight muscle) in her kneck, and there were some painful procedures I had to be there for as they figured it out. Never fun to see your kid in pain.
Onward and upward. All positive thoughts from here on out. OK, almost all positive thougths from here on out, I'm sure I'll get cranky now and again.
Alles ist gut,
BD
Yes Please Positive thoughts...........You guys are bring'n me down....Just when I thought I couldn't feel any worse!
I was thinking last night that my W and I have been together for probably close to 18 years. That is almost half of my life! Now I'm bringing myself down....I'll be back I have to get read the success stories for a while.
BD....Sounds like you got a good PMA! Stick with it.
Matt
Feeling pretty good, Matt. Before I forget (I have the attention span of a 2 year old on a sugar high at the moment), have a great time in Ocean City. Seriously, try to get some time alone with the W. Dig your toes in the sand. Make fun of some drunk teenagers together. Eat some bad boardwalk food (you're too skinny, remember ;))
Just have some fun, eh?
BD
Hey Matt. Think about how much better your life is going to be (eventually) in light of all you have learned!
No, you got me down, Heimlich--nothin' to be done about it....
Yeah, you got me WAY down...
I'm going to highjack your thread here for a minute.
Nomo and BD,
I plan on having a great time! I don't have any expectations on our R at all. So if anything happens it will be a positive!
I think I'm in for a long haul on this one. Just please if I am on here 2 years from now saying the same thing just tell me to get an ef'n life and get off the board.
Thank you guys for your support!
I will hand this thread back over to DB now!
Matt
Heimlich,
Sorry I haven't been over for a while. Good work with the W, I'm sure it was really hard, especially with the history you share.
Alright, my thread is a downer today too, so ((everyone)). Lets all get out of the bathroom, set the tissue down and pick ourselves up. We have some amazing things today to be grateful for:
1. We love our S's.
2. They love us, trust me they do.
3. We have the tools to fix our M's.
4. We care and are trying.
5. Each day will bring a new challenge to learn more about yourself.
6. I'm a good person, and GOSH Darnit people like me!
Now, go find the lamest party song you have in your collection, YMCA, Ghostbusters, anything from the 70's disco era, anything! Turn it all the way up, and dance like you have completely gone crazy.
I second that emotion (which I just heard on the cable music station).
Had me laughing for five minutes.