AtLRT for 4... and more... - DivorceBusting.com

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I'm moving here now, from my thread in the "We're Separated" forum:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2178934

AtLRT - After the Last Resort Technique

I've arrived here, very cautiously... I have thought really long and hard and while I have a long way to go, I have begun to remember, realize, and become the person I was before I M... and then some...

But I have a long way to go...

I've realized, or at least I now believe, that I have been selfish... I believe in M and I believe in the welfare and well being of my kids and I love my W...

And I still stand... but I'm ready to move on, now...

I was selfish because I wanted to save my M to a woman who... has decided to travel a new path... I can rationalize and make reasons why I have decided to let her go and move on... and I won't do that because that's not who I am...

I choose to move on. That is my choice and I make it and I will own my responsibility of it and the consequences of it.

This has been the hardest decision I've ever had to make. That almost sounds cliche... Of course it's a tough decision... and I don't think many people make the choice lightly...

I'll chronicle and journal until the D is final. After that... well, who knows... but as I've always said the members of this board mean a lot to me and I will continue to give back as long as I can and as much as I can.

I will do my best to stay "me focused" during this process. Please feel free to provide me with harsh contributions of 2x4s if it appears that I'm projecting or not moving forward with honour and dignity.

Thx...

What are my goals? Well, first I will say that I have no expectations of a time line... if nothing, I have certainly learned that no one controls time... only their actions, during moments of time...

My primary goals that are not D focused:

+ continue to reflect inwards on myself and be fair but honest about where I should focus on growth...

+ specifically on the above, I do want to become more physically healthy, so I will work on that which will include building body mass and muscle tone, working on my cardiovascular, and also continue to work on becoming a non smoker...

+ I want to work on my spirituality more, not just in traditional religion, but otherwise...

+ I also want to work more on increasing my contribution to others... however that might look... I have a few ideas to start...

+ I will also continue to work on becoming more financially stable... sometimes I forget about my own financial well being, as I'm too focused on contribution to others... Not sure if that means more balanced, or simply more...

+ I really should start looking for appropriate housing arrangements... I can't and don't want to stay where I am longer than I need to, while making sure I don't over extend myself in that regards...

+ oh yeah... forgiveness... I want to really take a good look at that one and make sure that I have truly and lovingly forgiven...

In regards to the D:

+ I have found the resources to begin action towards the D

+ I will remain focused on the kids, what will benefit them, including visitation as well as financial settlement... that neither me nor my W are placed in a negative position financially that our ability to take care of the basic needs of the kids are hindered...

+ I'll probably come up with some other stuff here...

Ok, that's it for now...

People come into our lives for a reason, a season, or a lifetime...

That seems to sum up my thoughts this weekend. My life has been full of good people... and a few... maybe not so much...

At 44 yrs old, I didn't think that I would be... how would I say... cleaning my rl "friend list" like that of an early adult...

I group of friends whom I'd known through my life became "seasonal" during my M. These people are folks I've known pretty much all my life, but never really had as close friends. I became friends with them again, because they became part of my W's circle when she moved into the area some 12 years ago...

I don't dislike these people, they just have different... I'll just say "interests..." It's just a little odd... maybe surreal in some ways, that these people encouraged and enabled my W to validate her feelings that I was not a good H and to emotionally invest in the OMs...

Ah well, I've pretty much "forgiven" these people in the sense that, this was the will of my W...

My expectations were that people, even these people (with their close ties and involvement with catholicism) were M friendly... and would have not involved themselves with my W's infidelity, at the least... the reality is, reality and my expectations didn't match... and that is their choice... and certainly my W's intention to leave the M would have not changed just because these people were not part of her life... So its not their "fault"... but I choose to have these people be part of an end to my "seasonal friends", is fine by me... as I mentioned, we truly do have different "interests"...

~~~~~~~

Of my other friends, I am so grateful to have them in my lives... those that have been part of my life over the past couple of years (whether reason, season or life)... even those who I hadn't even been in contact over that time...

I've mentioned before about a good friend that I lost contact with once I became M, because she is an exGF and my W was very jealous of my R with this exGF...

Well, this friend and her husband (whom I also consider a good friend) have opened their home to me into winter. Their house actually has an attached apartment (and otherwise a couple free bedrooms now that their kids have moved out). Their house is in a nearby city where job opportunities for me will be much greater. And given the availability of rooms, will be very beneficial when I start having my kids for visits, again...

My heart just fills with joy and gratitude to know that these lifetime friends not only exist, but they are there for us when we need them... no expectations from them... friends in the most pure sense of the word... they enjoy my company and I enjoy theirs...

~~~~~~~~

So on the work front, that's already mentioned above in a way. I'm very optimistic that I will have steady employment by mid Nov. Of course, I can't predict the future but I know my capabilities and it's certainly an attainable goal...

~~~~~

On the kid front, while I am still unable to have regular visits with them, I am making contact with them on a daily basis. Maintaining that connection is important to me and I'm sure they appreciate it...

~~~~~

On the D front, of course from my last post two days ago, and being a weekend... there's not much to report... I will continue to follow the resources available to me in that direction...

Although one... wrench... has popped up...

My W emailed me on Friday eve with a "carrot"... to tell me that the SA was completed and that her L would pass the doc on Monday to a lawyer who would review the doc with me and witness my signing...

The temptation again comes up to just sign the doc... and expectations were, and a draft has proven, the doc is very lopsided...

So I have to consider the value of signing a doc I am not in agreement with... there are many down sides... but there are benefits, as well... but the benefits appear mostly "immediate gratification" and not long term...

But I'm thinking too far into the future on information that I can not say is reliable... IOW, until I see the doc... I cannot be sure it is complete and ready to go, unless I see it... So no sense really thinking about it, I guess...

While the SA would seem a step towards the end goal of D, it's not necessary...

~~~~~

OK, I think that's about it...

Hopefully everyone had a great weekend of GAL... I got out quite a bit and had a pleasant weekend, myself...

Choosing to be married doesn't make you selfish. I don't know where you got that idea. Marriage means you stick things out through the good times and bad. She's the one who was selfish enough to leave. You made a choice. She made a choice. Just because they don't match, doesn't make one choice better than anothers.

OK, I get that and understand. Thanks.

Yes, I had chosen to live the vows of "worse, poorer, sickness..." and now I'm choosing out. And who knows, maybe choosing out no longer matches her choice. *shrug*

Maybe selfish wasn't a word that best describes it my choice to stay M in contrast to her choice to behave single. The choice itself was not selfish...

Rather, my desire and actions to push my will to remain M and attempt to control her desire to explore a different life, were selfishly motivated...

But again, I believe I understand the point.

This is not about selfish or altruistic or right or wrong...

This is just about an individual making choices which reflect my beliefs and desires...

Thanks Bond...

ah... the legal dance has begun...

I have made an application for support for legal counsel and it appears that I will be approved. So I communicated same to the L office that I had intended to use and have already had two consults with.

Their office responds to me this morning indicating that they have received notification that I have retained another L office...

???

To recap, my W expressed her desire for me to have the SA witnessed by a L, as apparently recommended by her L. A L office was recommended by my W as apparently recommended by her L. I contacted the L office just to inform them that some documents would be sent to their office.

So from what I gather, the L office I wish to retain had apparently been notified they were no longer part of the L loop...

I've since expressed my interest to retain the original L office and that there was obviously some miscommunication.

I will leave it in their hands...

~~~~~~

On the W front, I get an interesting email from her yesterday. She wants to speak to me directly (by phone) regarding the disbursement of the financial settlement. That she does not want to talk about that by email...

again... ???

At this time, I have not responded. I'm working through whether I communicate with her to let her know that I will not talk to her about that outside of either documented or witnessed convo...

I will seek my counsel in regards to that...

~~~~~~~~~~

On the kid front, I continue to communicate with them daily. Their responses are sporadic, but I will continue to maintain my comm with them, even if it is mainly one way...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Met with my friends regarding the appt and looks like I will be able to move in as soon as I wish. So I have planned to move in this weekend. Looking forward to that...

~~~~~~~~~~

On the job front... still looking and will make some focused efforts with the anticipated time line of my move and availability...

~~~~~~~~~~

I remain with three choices re: my M...

a) sign nothing, do nothing, comm nothing, and just move forward

b) sign the (still missing) SA and move forward

c) move forward with D proceedings and move forward

I'm still leaning towards C... it just makes the most sense, to me...

OK, end of week report... boring...

Because I have been living in a "summer house" (light insulation so not winter efficient)...

Getting everything ready for the move and stuff to be left here into "storage", I also have to get this place winter ready... that means keeping the water system open so that on move day, we can clear the pipes and winterize them...

That's about it, everything else same old right now...

But I did get a bit of a lightbulb moment this morning...

Yesterday I was just feeling really frustrated about D proceedings... Whoever said it was easy to get a D, they're lying... especially for someone in a low income bracket... So it's not just a matter of waiting for the process, it's waiting to being able to financially begin each part of the process...

Yes, the frustration on the wait and I really do just want this done, but I couldn't put a finger on why I seemed more frustrated than maybe appropriate...

It came to me that I was actually anxious to get to a point where my W sees the D papers because I have been hoping that would somehow hurt her or finally have her step back and question...

So I have to remember that I'm doing this as a positive for me, not a negative for my W and I should have no expectations on my W's reaction.

It was cleansing for me to have that moment of clarity... Suddenly the anxiety and pressure I felt in me to get this done, dropped... Still moving in that direction, but it will take whatever time it takes... I still move forward on everything else...

KD, your thought process is amazing. I'm going to go back and read the rest of your threads.

Keep the focus.

AJ

Lol... thanks AJ... I think...

I'm afraid that my early posts are probably great example of me being incoherent in the middle of an emotional breakdown... but if you can stomach it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyhow, the past couple days I've had moments of deep anger and loathing. I've let that work through. Wish I had a punching bag, but I let it pass through me (a... interesting experience to say the least...) and all is well...

It's that moment of questioning how could anyone truly have such utter disrespect for another human being. Not the "how could they leave ME"... but rather, just the disrespectful nature of their departure. The lies, deceit, stringing along... I don't know... it doesn't matter... just an emotion that we must, apparently, go through...

Move went OK. Of course I was in complete panic mode. We all have our challenges through this. Mine is basically with enough gas to get me to my destination, no job, no money, hopefully enough food to get me through the week, and just a pair of friends to open their door to me... Well, I'll figure this out...

Sent messages to the kids saturday and sunday and heard nothing from them... I just wish I was able to get more than just the hollow emptiness from that end...

On my way to my apartment, I stopped at another friend's just to chat. Found out that FS16 has been involved in an interesting situation a couple weeks ago. Apparently one of his friends about the same age ends up rolling his vehicle multiple times and end up having to be taken to the hospital (only one in vehicle as far as I understand; managed to text FS16 for help). FS16 and friend pull him from vehicle and take him to hospital where this kid is laying, apparently paralyzed right now. That could be an exaggeration... Anyhow, I understand this kid then instructs FS16 and another friend to go back to vehicle to retrieve some hard core drugs to dispose of so the police don't find it.

Of course, while morals and ethics might generally suggest the right thing the kids would do is not be involved and rat on this kid... the reality is, most "friends" will have the back of a friend who does something stupid... it just concerns me on a number of levels...

But while there are portions of the above that are no doubt true... it is second hand information... so I spent the rest of the evening wondering about D13 and D9...

Anyhow, just wanted to journal the above... hope the job search goes well this week... I really need to get work so I can finally put this crap to rest once and for all...

KD that svcks on top of everything else you are having financial issues and no job. I wish you luck in finding work man really sorry you are going through this. Hang in there

Thanks Rick...

OK, not much to update at this time, but here goes:

Took D9 out for Halloween. Lots of fun!

That's about it... still looking for job and all M stuff on hold... won't sign SA and can't afford to file... *sigh*...

Patience KD... patience...

Dear lord,

PLEASE do not let me GAL like that for a long... long... LONG time...

ow... my head and stomach still hurt...

Ah, but it was fun!

Spent the eve with some good, ol' buds from way back. It was interesting... one of them confessed to having an A with a M woman (he's D'd). He actually got "caught" with his hand in the cookie jar, but not with his pants down... He expressed remorse and said that he knew he should end it... I just reminded him that his behaviour is exactly what my W's first OM did...

Same ol' same ol' here...

Still baffled why my W didn't just wait and spend the money on D rather than SA...

Emotionally though, I'm doing really well... yeah, still stressed about work, but as far as my W and M... I'm feeling completely solid.

Another buddy from last night asked me if I would consider getting back with my W and I told him I would consider it, but I didn't really feel committed to the idea. I almost feel like I was lying to him.

I don't know if I've forgiven. I don't know if I could get back with my W with all the damage. But where I used to wonder how much work it would be, I really don't care at this point.

I accept that my W likely feels justified in her position. I know that I emotionally dropped out years ago and that was likely a trigger for my W's path to date. I really believe at this time that no matter what I could have done, my own needs would not have been met by my W. Not that I really NEEDED my W's attention and private time to be happy.

Anyhow, just blabbing... Another day, another... day...

Sending a prayer your way--hope all is well.

Thank you for all you do to support others on the board!

"Still baffled why my W didn't just wait and spend the money on D rather than SA..."

It is obivious, she wants space,
and you are not giving it to her.

If she wanted a D, she would have pursued it.

So consider your blessings and work on improving.

Find out her LOVE LANGUAGES, and start using them.

Good luck

Unconditional Love precludes attachment...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Poe... It is true, in the beginning I did not give my W the space she wanted. Not so much in the physical sense (which I provided early) but rather from the emotional space...

I have become much better at providing that space and am myself doing quite well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

dbmod, thank you for your comment and prayer. This board has been a much needed support and now muse as I find my ground and centre, once again.

I am forever grateful and offer back what support I can...

Update:

Time to move on.

I've agreed to sign the Separation Agreement. W is getting final adjustments made on it.

Once done, I'll start the process on D. Should be fairly quick as just the doc written up and signed.

It will be a good start to 2012. The future looks good.

As I've mentioned in other posts, while I continue to browse this site, I am intentionally not actively posting. Having once again found my "philosophical centre", I fear I may assert my own beliefs on those who need to follow their own paths. And I need to follow my own.

A quick update, I have signed the SA presented by my W (with nominal and insignificant modifications from the draft) this past friday. I am awaiting processing. I continue to be uncommitted to filing D in the near future, although I continue to weigh the pros and cons.

I just found out that Stephen Hawkings turned 70 today. As an example of someone who not only survived a life changing disease (ALS), but thrived through it. Mr. Hawkings also is a survivor of 2 D's, his first being in 1991 from his first W and has reconciled his first family in 2007. As described in Wikipedia article of his personal life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking#Personal_life

Mr. Hawkings, I salute you. Hope you had a great birthday!

Finally get a bit of breathing room.

W had made some allusions as to financial tx of SA being ASAP, even though SA stated 40 days. Then, I quickly noticed resistance and delay to that possibility as soon as I announced SA signed.

After a bit of discussions regarding handling of tx, which would take time because of my financial sitch (unable to afford the traveling necessary to get paperwork done) W finally offered concession to provide nominal, advanced financing to me so that I could take care of paperwork quickly.

So that is good. While not having financials settled didn't hold me back, my sitch was very restricting and difficult to move forward in any substantive way with life. Now I can put in the more pro-active plans for job searching AND be finally able to have my kids on regular schedules.

No real reason to post. I sent her an email saying I had my end of the SA paperwork completed. She responds with this gem:

"Perfect - thanks!

She just handed me another bill for $1000 for the edits and stuff to the agreement. I should show you her invoice - its unbelievable.

She wants another $1000 to file the divorce papers. I'm not doing it. Can't do it actually. We'll have to think about that one."

No idea what's going on in her head aside from wanting me to pay for the D paperwork.

I'll wait until I secure steady employment.

Kind of funny. Not a peep from any of the IL side since probably Mar/10, except for two chance encounters that were pretty much "Hey, hi. How are you?" short conversations...

I did get a kick out of two recent "things".

1) MIL game requested me on FB about three weeks ago... I chuckled when I saw it thinking, "I wonder if she's trying to reach out to me?"

2) My W's cousin's W just sent a "Valentine's Gift" order request in a group FB message which included me and other ILs. Again, thought it was funny so sent a little note to say "Hey" and haven't heard back...

Still frustrating (for any newbies who read this and find similarities) that my "positive expectations" are always wrong and my "negative expectations" are always right... so word of caution and note to self, stop the expectations...

Of course I'm joking, I do have no expectations. Well... here's an example of my non-expectation... The SA was not perfectly clear about child transfer arrangements and I knew this as did my W intend this, in order to allow for certain amounts of flexibility. No harm. But as being the case and also the lack of clarity on things like long weekends, I needed to ask "the questions".

So I did. Simply asked what times would be appropriate to pick up and drop off the kids and to give some thought to long weekends. I did that today because I know my W is going on a business trip and may not be back before I pick the kids up on Friday so want to be sure arrangements are made so whoever is with the kids knows I'll be picking them up.

I suspect now is the time that will be hard on my W. She's gone through the honeymoon of being independent and making arrangements for the kids when she was going out with friends. She now has to deal with the reality that the kids are no longer in her control. Of course, that also makes me happy to not have to "ask" to see the kids. I know what it's like to not be able to just do anything with the kids when I want. So I also suspect that my W will wait to the last minute to respond. I do hope she responds, I don't want this to start badly...

I'd mentioned in a post to someone else that W seems to be changing now that the SA has been processed. Just very little spew. Not really open or anything, just less hostile. So I think that it's safe for me to pop my head out for a bit...

I'm going to look past any need for extended relationship damage control as a reason that we could never R. It would be a lot to work through and not everyone may be receptive IF that were to happen.

But rather, I think I'm going to take some time now to objectively look at my W and determine if she really is someone I would want to be with. Because eventually, if this ain't gonna happen... if I don't want to be with her... I might as well file...

So, spend some time doing that. Otherwise, things are starting to move forward for me.

I think I'm going to get a bike and challenge JB to a race...

oops... not a peep since Mar/11... hasn't been THAT long...

crap... I haven't even had a chance to see if the grass is greener and have an A...

Well, not that there's any good news...

Yes, Poe... I guess I will pick up 5LL now and read it. I think I know what her LL is, and even if we end up D, I'm sure it will be a good resource for future R and family and stuff...

Yes 25, I am taking score...

jk...

Just to recap:

+ onus was on me to pick up D tab because W paid for SA, (I mostly, always said I didn't want either)
+ I wouldn't have to pick it up if she had just gone straight to D
+ She always said she wouldn't waste the money on SA, yet started the process only one month prior to being able to file D
+ We wouldn't have been in that predicament if I hadn't left the home
+ I wouldn't have left the home if she wouldn't have been part of that "incident" with her EA in our bed
+ That wouldn't have been a predicament if I'd figured out there was something wrong
+ I would have known there was something wrong if she hadn't shut down on me
+ She wouldn't have shut down on me if I hadn't shut down on her, first...

And so it goes...

Of course, the both of us can probably say we M for the wrong reasons. I have no idea why she liked me or M me. I have guesses and they aren't positive and they're moot at this time... we ARE Md...

Why did I M her? That's a good question. I don't have much, atm. I made a list for a counselor way back at the beginning of this. None of which were false. But they are probably things I could find attractive in ANYONE... My W couldn't come up with more than two items at the time... I'm feeling like that, right now...

Why am I going through this process? Well, my W responded to my email. Had a bunch of stuff to say about scheduling and stuff which was all well and good... needed to start that thinking...

But again, like the previous email, she once again put "it" out there...

She's still upset that it cost her so much to file the SA and she refuses to give her L any more money to file D. So she's putting that on my lap... and that is no different than always...

But as she's always avoided the D conversation, something that I actually asked of her back in about Feb/11, she has refused to address it directly and as you all notice... we have an SA... not a D...

I could go through the whole psych of she wants me to be the bad guy and file and I want her to file because I don't want to be the bad guy and blah, blah...

But the thing we both keep avoiding is... neither of us appears to want this D... After it's all said and done, she'd still be under the standard retainer fee if she filed D... and she has the resources (earnings or otherwise) to do it... while she may not WANT to spend the money, who does... but if you want a new car, you bite the bullet and maybe even buy an upgrade... you find a way to get the money... and you are generally happy to do it...

The harsh reality is, I've fantasized about D as much as six years ago... I struggled with having made a mistake getting M to her... Back in the day, I probably could have convinced her to bare my child without having to get M... but... that's the past... I lived with my choice and tried to make the best of it...

My struggle remains... I really don't like some of my W's character traits and I don't see her changing them... true, I have no problem admitting I have my own character flaws... although most of them I continue to work on getting rid of...

So the moral dilemma... do I take the "easy" way out and end this? Or do I do the "responsible" thing and maintain my M status and be unhappy in an M to a woman whom I really don't think CAN change, at least in the sense that she either doesn't want to do the work TO change, or she really does like herself the way she is and does not CARE TO change...?

I don't think it's right, nor my place, to ask her to change. Never did. That was her choice. I hoped she would choose to grow and change and in her own way, I believe she has... but not in a way that I had hoped... not in a way that drew us closer together... and I don't know how to encourage her to meet my needs nor how to dump what I believe (honestly this may not sound fair, but I believe it to be true) are some major character flaws...

I can't expect her to change and I won't ask her to change... that's not my right... nor in my control...

*bah*...

I've got some work ahead of me...

chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...

I want to deal with the elephant on the table - I want to determine if my W is someone I want to build a R with...

conflicting commitments...

Are they?

I don't want to discuss the elephant (D) with my W and make a decision on it based on how I currently feel that my W is not someone I would want to be with, because I do feel I do not have enough information...

I do not want to avoid having the D conversation because I feel that this has gone on long enough and there is no movement. Something has to change.

I believe I have had enough experience in received "bad" M news, to know what it would feel like to get the D papers and that I could emotionally handle them. I'm quite confident in that. And I am quite confident that, at this time, I would not contest the D.

hmmm...

Am I afraid to discuss D with my W because I believe she wants it? Yes.

How sure am I that she wants it? 95% sure.

Why do I feel 5% sure that she does not want it? Because she COULD file.

What are some valid reasons why she won't spend the money...? I have no idea... I can certainly understand that she thinks I should take some financial responsibility over this. In her mind, that would be valid. But I do not want this and I will not pay for something that I do not want.

Why won't I support her in this? Of course, that's assuming she wants the D.

OK, so lets say she wants the D. I will be transparent and indicate that without a current job, I am concerned with having to pay child support. I agree that both of us should be financially supporting the children as we best can. I have no problem paying what ever the court might allot as my portion of child support. Having lived at a level of poverty for almost a year, I do not want to be back in that position any time soon. I would be prepared to file once I have an established and consistent level of earnings.

OK, that is reasonable from where I sit. I can do something about that and continue to look for work (of course I will) and once I have established my earnings, the above becomes a moot point.

What else? Why else might I not want to support my W in the D? Well again, there is always that little voice in my head that is saying... what if... There's also that sense of failure. Of not being able to save my M...

So I think that brings the chicken - egg around full circle in this little post of thoughts for now...

I still don't know if I want to be M to my W.

Could my W and I create a better M? Of course we could.

Could my W and I create great lives for ourselves which do not include each other? Of course we could.

Could our kids grow up to have healthy and loving lives and Rs in either situation? Yes... of course...

So choose to make a decision... things aren't changing by doing nothing... change something...

Do I really feel like I've done EVERYTHING? Can one really do EVERYTHING? Have I hit my limit? Is it really so important to keep standing? If yes, why? To whom?

Funny... people say to me that I always want to "win"... that I hate loosing... and it stings... because I understand that their meaning is that I always have to win at the expense of someone else... and that is not at all true...

I am highly competitive, yes... What I find people don't realize about me is, I am highly competitive with myself. Put me in front of a technology problem and you won't see me for weeks on end, until I've solved the problem.

I have come to realize that not all problems need to be solved. Or equally... they do not have to be solved by me...

Is this one of them? Can I really just... let this one go...?

Yes... I could...

At what benefit?

At what cost?

Those are tough questions. Cost to the kids? I'd say damage is already done. So either way....

Benefit? I guess the benefit really is... When this is finally done... it no longer is a problem. New problems would crop up, most certainly... but new problems would crop up, even if I kept standing and we worked it out...

I guess I can let this one go...

So about that elephant...

I suppose I need to let my W know that I do feel this is a decision we both need to make, together. And also, that while I am prepared to file and assume that cost, I am not comfortable doing so until I am employed, so that I know I can afford the child support. But also, that I will not file if it is not something my W is sure of, at this time.

Am I committed to having this conversation? Yes, 100%.

Am I committed to having this conversation within three months? Yes, 100%.

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation in 1 month? I could... it scares the heck out of me, but I could commit to this, 100%...

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation within 2 weeks? Having committed as above, yes... I feel 100% committed to having this conversation within 2 weeks.

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation, face to face...? wow... I'll have to think about that one...

Enough for now...

OK, decision made, ball is rolling. This ain't over for another 3 months if things are left up to me. I do need to get that job.

I have emailed my W to let her know that I will discuss the D with her next week.

After having done that, I've re-read her last email. I am now 99% convinced she wants the D. Of course, I will not know until she confirms it. But it is quite clear in the email that her not filing really is about her wanting me to pay for the D filing.

So it goes... change is good...

I'm about as nervous as I was when I first asked her to M me...

I will let her know that I will file when I am gainfully employed due to the child support concern and that if she wants the D sooner, she will have to pay for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well... I guess nothing more, nothing less if that is all that is to be said... and no... it will not be face to face...

KD read your comments aNd decision a few days ago. My questions is that if you are 99% sure that W wants a D why don't you let her pay for it? How is the job search?

Hey rick, good questions.

First, it is probably a good idea to explain... an A IS a deal breaker for me... but I was willing to accept it and work things out because I made a choice that my M, my W, and my kids were worth it. If this was just a GF... and there were no kids... I would be gone... period...

Having said that, and having lived 11 years with someone whom had done very little to meet my needs (in the 5LL sense), I have an opportunity to "release her" of her obligations, but more realistically "surrender" to what appears to be her truth that the M is over and use this as an opportunity to seek that which I want.

To be fair, my W probably had no idea that there was anything wrong. She probably had no idea how much my needs not being met were affecting my behaviour in the M. And to be fair, we can't mind read... I likely did not let her know in no uncertain terms, that I was done... 5 years ago... that's my responsibility and I have no right to complain about her absence in the M which is a symptom of my emotional abandonment of her.

I'm reading through 5LL and already had a clear idea that my W's LL is "acts of service" and mine is "quality time". I received a lot of mixed messages throughout our M which I thought were about her understanding and meeting my needs, when it became clear after the fact that they were about me meeting her needs.

I titled this thread AtLRT (After the Last Resort Technique) because while LRT is really a short term technique to help us detach, get emotional control of ourselves, be able to think clearly through our situations, and then move forward with positive actions. The LRT is generally suggested when it is really the last resort, before D... most likely because it is up to us to really get a handle on ourselves and do some really awesome work because D is literally just around the corner.

Once LRT has done its work on us, then we can make some necessary steps to work on the M. But unfortunately... in some cases... that opportunity just does not present itself (or from a responsible frame of mind, we just don't find or look for an opportunity to fix the M). Sometimes D is a necessary step in the road to R.

So to answer your question... I really don't want to admit that D is for me. That D is something that I wanted, for quite some time. I just didn't want to be the bad guy. Was this a conscious thing for me? Probably a little, although it wasn't a plan. I was prepared to stick it out... I was prepared to be unhappy in my M. I had accepted the bed I had made.

Making her pay for the D could be just an unconscious, punitive act from me. I think it's ridiculous that she paid for and processed the SA... something she said she wouldn't do... and rather not just pay for and process the D... something that would have probably cost her the same amount of money...

As I continue my journey of growth... and if I am going to do this in a loving way... and don't get me wrong, I do love my W... I just don't know that, given the opportunity for us to both have what we need... I know my W well enough to believe that... she really is not at a place in her life where she wants to change any of the things that honestly... I can no longer live with...

So I can do this for her. I can, in her LL provide her with this act of service, with no expectations regarding saving the M. And simply do this as appreciation for what I believe she was doing for me through her "act of service" of filing the SA so that I could have the resources I needed to continue my journey, in a way that removed herself from risk.

ie. Not have an SA and support me in moving on, risking herself financially in the event that a D would cause her financial hardship. Something I would not want for her nor the kids.

As for job searching? Not going so well. Job market has slumped this month. No bites right now. I will keep at it, although I have to admit that I am very good at financially finding my own way when I have the resources to do so. If it comes down to it, having the financial resources to do it, I could quite easily go back to being an independent tech and could support myself doing so. I just don't know if that's what I want to do...

So I am probably on parallel paths with financial growth. Until one or the other gets me moving towards my financial goals.

Been thinking about this for a bit. I do apologize for posting some menial stuff here, but I think I need to be clear with everyone about a few things.

I am pretty confident in my knowledge and ability to DB now. I am doing my best to support whomever I feel is in need and where my support may help. And often, I'll come to a post and think, "this might be a really good thing for this person, at this time" and wonder how I might have applied it, in my sitch...

Some might begin to wonder, having read above, why I am not following my own advice or that of DBing...

For those who are new and don't really know the beginning of my sitch (and this has been sitting in my thoughts, these day)... you may wonder what might be my fears and what's underlying my willingness to move on. Why, 5 years ago, I was "done"...

I have co-dependent issues. I have done a really good job dealing with them and being in control of them for quite some time. I started working on them about 15 years ago. I became my own man with my own ability to be happy about myself without the need to concern myself over making other people happy.

Understand that, for the most part, I really enjoy helping people. While my primary LL is quality time (without a doubt), I also have a secondary which (per the online quiz) would be words of affirmation.

I don't know that acts of service are also important or if that's just my co-dependency... I'm not big on "needing" others to do things for me, so I guess it is the co-dependency...

Anyhow, even before BD, it was becoming more and more apparent that, in my M, my co-dependency really began to kick in... and I resented it. In stress, people can show their "true colours" but they can also show "false flags" of personality and emotional disorders. I researched them and I know there's a conversation going on right now on this forum that discusses these things. And I want to put out a huge word of caution... Self medicating is not always a good thing. Diagnosing ourselves is fine, but we should always get a second opinion from at least one qualified MD. And that goes to diagnosing anyone else for any possible medical or psychological issue. Don't research and assume your spouse has some psych condition without a DR's confirmation. It could very well be a cheeseless tunnel.

OK, having said that, in my sitch... after BD, I was in the grief stages and I had friends start to point things out to me. Very clearly, I had run straight into co-D behaviour. Every time my W complained about something, I'd jump. As time went on, I devolved and became reclusive. Every complaint my W would give me, I owned and took on to mean that I was not good enough. That I was a bad person.

I don't think my W meant to do that. But hey, I don't know she didn't, either. Did she not see me down? Did she need to keep kicking me? Maybe she thought they were nudges. Maybe she thought she was being loving and trying to support me in the only way she knew how...

But that point is moot, now...

After BD and until this point, my W's words and actions to that end, what could in some ways be construed as abusive, have not changed. I can think back and see these things in her from the moment I met her and I saw them during the M and I continue to see them...

And... I can not go back there... I can not do that again. I would be disrespecting myself and I would be hurting my kids, to allow myself to go back to that.

It hurts to make my choice and my misgivings about choosing D has clouded my memories. I'd forgotten what I lived through. I remember now...

So again to my response to rick above, I could leave D up to my W. I could file D as a final, loving act to my W in regards to the M...

But I am filing because, I can not and will not let myself be in that sitch again.

Hope that makes sense.

I say this because I want the members here to understand that I do not want to be an example that people should leave an M if they see no movement in their partner. Each of our sitchs are unique in their own way. I am doing this for my continued and future emotional safety and well being.

Hey KD hope I did not stress you with my question. And you have never given the impression that anyone should leave their M. In the contrary, thanks for the help.

^^^^^^ rings very true to me and my sitch as well. Thank you for expressing your thoughts.

I have said many times that a certain action would be "my final loving act to my wife".....

.... Funny enough I have had "many" of those certain actions.

Love can often be the harder choice, the more narrow road. It can often mean more pain, and can seem like there is no "reward" at the end of the journey.

But we do not know how our decisions today will impact us or the other person today, tomorrow, or years down the road....

... but I DO believe that a loving action WILL have an impact. I have to... because I believe in a God that has a ridiculous amount of love for me. So it is the choice we should always strive to make.

I do not read any of posts as being unloving or you giving up in regards to your sitch.

Marriage isn't about a piece of paper. It's about a choice. It's a choice to love the person... unconditionally.... and to do that in the face of any obstacle.

Sometimes that means letting go. Sometimes it may mean ending the m....

.... and that is ok. Hard and heartbreaking - but ok.

naw @rick... it's all good! My last post was based on me remembering the "bad stuff" that I had mentally blocked out. It dawned on me as I was wondering why I kept focusing on the fact that my W hadn't changed and how I wasn't really doing anything to change me and get out of "defense" mode. It was purely unconscious, self preservation.

The reality is, I HAVE changed. I am back to whom I was. Whom my W M'd. But I still panic to get into a room with her and have any "real" dialogue with her, such as negotiating SA or having the D talk... I have no problem standing beside her and talking about nothing... actually... now that I think about it, I probably would be OK with doing so. But I don't wanna...

What I KNOW is my "same old" behaviour is saying "yes", even when it puts me out. And that's my co-D talking. And these past 11 years have brought that out in me again. I fear that talking emotional stuff with her, f2f will set me up to make bad choices. I think the fact that I won't do the f2f with my W really pisses her off because I feel she really wants me to be "OK" with this... and... I don't wanna...

So me going dark and NOT jumping is a HUGE 180 for me and I suspect it is something that my W really does not want to accept and is likely the reason why her responses continue to be spew... but... it is a healthy 180 for me and I don't have to apologize for that. I MUST keep my co-D in check, even if it costs me my M. Besides... keeping my co-D wasn't healthy for the M, either...

It took me a heck of a lot of self control to open up to my W in the first place, when we first got together and then M'd. The minnow can got opened and over the years, it all just puked out... I couldn't get the lid back on...

And yes, @Val, I know enough and understand and live unconditional enough to move forward with loving actions. I can genuinely say that I don't even think of it as taking a "high road"... it is just how I had decided to live my life. Something I embraced 15 years ago and like about myself and will continue to do...

Thanks for the feedback, you two!

hmmmm.... welp... didn't have that conversation....

I figured I'd wait for her to bring it up. She still hasn't. No big deal. I realised I didn't need to have that convo, anyhow.

Settling into routine with kids. Doing some much needed catch up. D14 still in good relations although she's being 14 and her friends are more important than spending time with dear ol' dad...

I'll figure that out, yet. Got some "tricks" up my sleeve. lol Been working on building a snow castle with D9. Well... I work... she watches...

More bricks this weekend for it.

Was considering getting into a different car. Wanted a beemer but everything available is a little out of range. So have a line on a e320 benz. sweet....

Back to full on job hunting next week.

Interesting topic...... I feel guilty reading this. Oh well, would be a fool not to be seeing how some of you handle this part.

Thanks for popping by, Wendy... I would love to hear about how you feel guilty...

I suppose many of us who post during this stage do so both to help ourselves as well as to share with others in order to help them once they get to this point. I don't know "where" in any "DB map" I might be, but here is where I find myself and so here is where I do my own work.

By all means, I appreciate and respect all who stand for extended periods of time. We read them often on this board or see them IRL.

And on the other hand, it is not to look down on those who don't "stand" (as it might look to us, individually) as we are all entitled to our own choices.

I have come to a personal conclusion (in this case, I remember what I believed) that there is a "sweet spot" between pure intellectualism and pure faith. Even though they can appear so contradictory.

Intellect tells us: Do the work, see the results

Faith tells us: Surrender to a higher power, and all will be revealed.

I believe the most beautiful gifts of our time on this earth is witnessed when we do both...

In my language... in the way I have chosen to live my life, and I believe in many ways is the "DB Way", I call it stopping resistance. It is observable in action, everywhere with positive results. In DB parlance, it's called dropping the rope.

Nothing is ever over until we close our eyes for the last time. I have seen, time and again, opportunities that I have walked past, show up again in the future. I have seen many (possibly negative temptations) appear time and again... and in some cases, I have reached out to them (more than once) and they've stung me... What we take and how we grow (in a positive way) from our experiences is what I believe creates even greater opportunities and successes in our lives.

When we both do the work and have faith... we will find our success. Whether that be in our careers, our health, our spirituality and our families...

I would be a fool to think that my M is "right" and not be open to the possibility that my greatest successes will be as a single man. Or that there is actually someone else "out there" whom I passed by, completely oblivious that our paths would join or whom I have not yet met. Or further, that it is on this path, that all involved will find their most value, only to have our new, better selves re-united in a new, more healthy way.

I will always continue to do "the work" by what ever name it is called. And I will also continue to have faith that all will be revealed.

And in that, I know the future is fantastic, indeed... I KNOW this, completely...

Nothing is ever over until we close our eyes for the last time.

Yes! And I also believe the future is fantastic. I just need to figure out how to get there.

I feel guilty for reading "I'm thinking of leaving".

Even though my H has been making it plain for more than a year that he plans to leave me. Yes, he has a million excuses why he hasn't. But in his mind OW is a better thing for him. A special person who he might lose.

And he goes back and forth, me or her. Her he loves, me I am the tie to his kids and grandkids. He opinions that I will take better care of him when he is old. Where as he may very well be pushing OW around in a wheelchair soon.

And I am one of those people who cannot pretend to be moving on. I have tried, but I just really am not good at it. Partly because H keeps going back and forth, and I fall for his saying we are staying together. I think things are working out, and then, boom, they aren't.

Why do I feel guilty? I must have some crazy expectation that I'm supposed to stay married. I must think I am bad if I give up. Maybe I want the man who can't make decisions to make some.

I do know I am super tired of putting so much time and thought into this R. I don't feel like myself. I feel so out of touch.

Maybe I just still think I can fix everything, because I always do. Huge part of the/our problems.

Thanks for saying you wanted to hear about how I feel guilty.

Wendy

And thanks for clarifying why you feel "guilty".

It took me a long time to admit and/or be willing to say "publicly" that I had been wanting out of the M for a long time. I said my vows and I planned on standing by them. And in doing so, I was standing by my W and my kids. There were a million reasons why I felt guilty for having that skeleton in my closet. And it wasn't important enough for me to bring up with my W, because it was something that I needed to work on in myself. It wasn't her job to make me happy, although I did resent not getting my LL tank filled.

I didn't need to stress her with it, but I certainly wasn't going to act on an impulse to leave the M or have an A, just because I wasn't happy. IDK, maybe that's a bit like a pure vanilla WAS... or the beginnings of one...

What I know now, is that I was "working on it" in a less than positive (win/win) manner. I didn't know what to do differently. Of course, the bomb put me in enough stress to figure out that I needed to do something different. Of course, by that time it was "too little, too late".

I truly believe that ILYBINILWY is a cop out. A way to soften a blow to someone that you don't really love. Because it's the right thing to say, especially now in a society that has really begun to embrace (the term) unconditional love. If you love someone, you will show it through loving actions. Not "lying, deceit and omissions" to soften the blow, which is often the method of a WAS.

I love my W, but I do not like that I felt less important than anyone who called the house or otherwise interrupted our personal or family time. I love my W, but I do not like that I felt she expected me to do everything she asked me to do. I love my W, but I do not like that I felt accused of not loving her. I love my W, but I do not like feeling like I am supposed to feel guilty for not doing everything my W asked of me. I love my W, but I did not like finding her in our marital bed, alone with another man, regardless of the circumstances. I love my W, but I do not like having that situation justified when I simply wanted an apology that it probably wasn't the best place to have a private conversation with another man. I love my W, but I did not like having her tell me that I was not welcome to join her and the kids when they went out for visits in 2010. I love my W, but I do not like that I feel she is not willing to work on the M or discuss what we can do to make it better. I love my W, but I do not like that some of my behaviours which could be described as character flaws that began to show up in myself, and which are fixable and not a definition of whom I am, are the basis for her saying she wants out of the M. I love my W, but I do not like that she made an executive decision to end the M, without discussing it with me.

I love my W and I am willing to listen to her and understand her frustrations in the M and work on things that I can which might have suggested to her that I did not love her.

I love my W, and I am in love with my W, and she is showing me that she does not want to be M, and I will accept that. I am willing to accept she is unwilling to work on the M.

I believe there is a big difference between wanting out of an M and being honest about it vs recognizing our spouse wants out of the M and accepting that and not resist it.

Rick89 posted recently about how a WAS is willing to take pretty much any action or statement of the LBS as verification for their choice. How a WAS will often suggest that while they don't want to give us "false hope", they don't want to make a rash decision and leave the M. Unfortunately, it is often revealed that this is simply the WAS being unwilling to leave the M until they have their exit strategy worked out and ready to go.

I really have no idea what my W wants. I do know by my definition, her actions show she wants out. I do know, that if she wants out, she would file D. So I can only guess that she still does not (consciously) know what she wants in regards to the M. What I know is, what I choose should not be dependent on what she (says she) wants. Yes, of course if she says and SHOWS she wants to work on the M, I would be open to it. But (who was it that said about choosing with their feet), my W has already "shown" me (and continues to show me) her choice by her actions.

What I do know (and this isn't said to be "righteous") is that I do love my W enough to let her go. For whatever reasons it may hurt me, my W, or my kids... it is the right thing to do. I believe I have shown my kids that it is important to fight for and work on an M. Now, I hope to show my kids what it means to "love someone enough to let them go".

What I don't know is whether I am a WAS who had karma kick him in the butt. What I don't know is, am I (now) a WAS who is justifying a choice. What I DO know is, I am willing to discuss and work on our M problems and that my W remains unwilling. And what I do know is, I am one more step closer to moving on.

WOW Kaffe!

You wrote that the WAS doesn't want to leave the marriage until they have their exit strategy worked out. And all the rest is blah, blah, blah.

My H and OW got busted and I realized that is why they were so mad at me (!!!). I was supposed to buckle down and do all the work to get my house sold, then H could take his half of the money and D me. And I guess they could live happily ever after.

Boy was I going to be suprised!

I feel very much like I have been put on a shelf. My H has no desire to work on our M. He lies to me with no remorse. He acts nice, then crazy. It really hurts me that he has moved on so easily. I am resisting him wanting out of the marriage. And someone on this site said: What you resist, persists.

You say you love your W enough to let her go. To me that is hard. I think maybe we all want to be the WAS sometimes, trading those roles back and forth. Maybe Karma kicks us all in the butt now and then!

Kaffe, you sound like you have been through a lot. And have learned a lot. And by the way I don't view it as being one step closer to moving on. I view it as being pushed away a little at a time. And eventually we might find ourselves out the door.

It is unfortunate that as the WAS appears to deamonize the LBS during their exit, the LBS also deamonizes the WAS. The human characteristics and behaviours of a WAS, as that of describing the personality disorder traits of someone in MLC are things that could very likely be temporary and again, not a definition of whom the WAS or MLCer really is.

Having said that, it seems a common trait of a WAS to lie by omission. By not saying they are unhappy in the M and describing the reasons they are unhappy, but rather planning an exit strategy behind the back of the LBS, it can appear to be very deceitful and disrespectful of the LBS. The remorse may (or may not) come for the WAS at a later date.

It is hurtful to the LBS, without a doubt. And I think that a lot of the spew that we get when they are "outed" is based on them having to face the fact that they have objectified us. Whatever happens in the mind of the WAS, they (possibly unconsciously) appear to forget that there is another human being standing beside them whose feelings are being wrenched by their blind determination to find their happiness. In the same way that they will use phrases like "they're kids and are resilient and will bounce back from this".

Really, how human is that, that we do not want to hurt another human. When we sit into our cars, without a second thought that we are about to hurtle ourselves down a street in a vehicle weighing 3K lbs, pointed at other humans weighing a mere 5% of that... and we do not spare a thought that if the fail safes or our own disconnectedness from the driving process, we could severely harm another person. If we thought about that deeply, no one would ever drive.

They are no less human than we are. They don't want to think that they are hurting another human. They don't want to think they are being selfish. They don't want to think they are being irresponsible.

What we'll find in their language is very clear words that either hold them harmless or even victims or that (as I mentioned above) objectify their spouses and/or kids. Because they are human. The LBS can at times, appear to do the same.

I have found some solace and certainly some value, in empathizing with the WAS. That is a completely different bag of emotions there. I have to say I want to be neither WAS nor LBS... although it has been enlightening to see both sides.

So yeah, it is hard to lovingly let go. I don't think everyone must do so, if this is where their path leads. It is only something that I choose. I'm doing so, because I do not want to bitter in my D. I'm not completely done with any of the emotions, of course. I don't know if anyone ever really can be, until we close our eyes that last time. I am sure I will continue to learn things through this until I leave this earth.

I totally understand how it feels like we're being pushed out the door. And again, I view this as my personal choice on how I will exit, that rather than being pushed, I see the door and I move towards it in a way that works for me. In a way that is designed by me that hopefully will provide the most benefit for everyone involved.

I must say the past few days have been odd for me. I can see the need to let my H go. Can't really hold on to what I haven't got. He has spent the last 3 weekends at OW's house. Most certainly he is showing where he would rather be.

I have stayed in the master bedroom, kind of a pi--ing contest between us, I realize.

I don't enjoy sleeping next to someone who would rather be somewhere else. I hate the fact that it is the only little bit of affection I get from him, a few minutes of snuggling, no sex, every morning and night. He acts likes he wants to hug me hello and good bye, but then pulls himself back. It is a million little things like that.

I am just so tired of being made to feel like a bother. If my H really does love OW, then who am I to stand in their way.

My H has been difficult to be around our whole marriage. I've made excuses for his childish behaviour, explained how 'shy' he is, I have bragged about his amazing abilities to fix or repair anything, I just may have made a mountain out of a molehill!

I can say I truely love him. But, yes, maybe to save him and me I need to lovingly let him go. Maybe OW will be just what he needs. They can take their Greta Garbo selves and go live in a cave together and spend the rest of their days watching TV and avoiding talking to people.

But the bottom line really is that I want and need a loving relationship. Not one where I feel like part of the furniture.

The hard part for me is how to do this lovingly. Do I just move back into the guest room while he is gone. Not say a word, just go dark? I haven't done anything legally, just spent an hour with a lawyer asking questions.

Let go, put the ball in his court and just go about my business? Let him file if that is what he wants?

The LBS, aside from working through their own stuff and rebuilding their life around themselves, spends a lot of "hurry up and wait" time.

There's a point where a person has to make a clear, concise choice and move towards it in a completely transparent way.

Going dark is to protect us. Until we are able to build ourselves up to a place where our future is bright, regardless of the outcome, then we are likely to react to triggers on either side.

Choices sometimes seem like black and white things when the reality is they are more "grey" guidelines. And especially important to understand about choices is they can be modified or changed as necessary.

There has been moments over the past month where I felt that perhaps the tides were starting to change as my W has been much more pleasant with me. The stresses of me are likely to be fewer and further apart. And for those reasons, I wonder if maybe it is time to take another look.

But I'm not ready yet and there are still signs that my W would not be receptive to it, still.

Most important still, is what I want. I KNOW what I DO NOT want in my life.

Like you, Wendy... I DO NOT just want to be a possession in my W's life. Someone for my W to drag around with her, to be maid for her, to service her sexually if/when she wants, on her terms and on her whims. I still do not see that changing now or any time in the future.

Sometimes, waiting is not valuable. Sometimes, we get more value from making a choice and moving towards that choice. It does not have to be fast movement. It just has to be controlled change. That we continue to feel in control of our own destiny. Perhaps in the same way that our spouses want to feel they are in control of their own, and that we are not somehow the cause of their future.

Letting go lovingly is moving forward with our lives without bitterness or anger of the present, the past, and not allowing ourselves to project that bitterness and anger into the future. We need to let those emotions of our lives go.

Letting go and moving forward transparently might seem like we need to tell our spouses our intentions and then move towards that intention. It does not have to be that way. We can move forward, but simply be open and transparent verbally IF they ask what is going on. Our actions will be clear.

In your case Wendy, I would say don't move back into the guest bedroom unless you have truly made the choice to move on with your life, alone. Letting go lovingly does not mean moving to the guest bedroom to see if he will pursue.

Also, while "acting as if can be helpful (practice) for us", letting go lovingly really is being genuine when we tell them, "I understand you are unhappy in the M. I too, am unhappy. And I truly wish for us both to be happy and do not wish to stand in the way of that. I am moving on with my life."

I am listening. I am pondering. I am trying hard not to laugh in yoga class when the instructor tells us to let go of things that are bothering us.

So today I did make some movements. I went out and did a bunch of errands, didn't tell him anything except that I was going to yoga when I left at 9:45 am. I got home at 5 pm. I had called him once with a boat part related question, so he knew I was working on the boat.

When I got home he carefully told me everything he did while I was gone. He asked how was yoga. I said okay. I didn't say anything else about my errands of today. He didn't ask.

Than he decided to go return a door. I didn't ask to join him, normally I love a trip to a home improvement store. Instead I gave him something else to return and went about the stuff I'm working on.

I have a pile of paperwork and another pile of quilting to keep me busy. I want to not be sitting around waiting on him. I want to be busy and making progress in life.

I stayed in the master bedroom. He acted annoyed, but didn't carry himself down to the guest room. I did realize I do something different now, than I did in years past. For the past few years, as this drama has been unfolding, I have started to sleep in more in the mornings.

I used to fire out of bed at 5:15 at the latest. Now I force myself to stay in bed, worried that I am waking him up. I am doing that as a 180, back to getting up when I wake up. I used to get more done in the morning than most people do all day.

I am pretty sure he actually complained more than once about me getting up so early. And sometimes he would come find me and ask me to come back to bed for sex. So this might be a huge example of me doing what doesn't work.

Okay, continuing to ponder stuff!

Thanks!

If that 180 of staying in bed earlier works for you and is something you want to keep doing, then by all means... Personally, I'm all in for enjoying the loving arms of a warm quilt in the morning...

I could quote everything you mentioned above as great stuff. That's exactly it. Talking about functional things if/as necessary. Responding to inquiries and not feeling the need to share (as opposed to withholding) when there are no inquiries.

See, once we're not in the "score keeping" mode, the R is much like a friend. Not perhaps a BFF, but friendly. If something comes out of your mouth, no big deal. If they're curious, you answer. But you don't have to be providing a detail list of your daily routine or your thoughts. And neither do you need to ask them about the details of their day nor their thoughts. If they offer, treat it as you would any friend. Of course, things like joining them on a trip to the store or for company or sharing thoughts and activities in alternative R's would probably be off limits in most cases. It depends on where a person is in this journey. As things approach 100% transparency (and possibly bff status), that might be possible again.

Just as an example, I took the kids for a little trip this weekend. My W booked the hotel for me, for whatever reason. Instead of telling her to mind her own business, or less confrontational telling her thanks, but no thanks, or even asking her why she was doing that... it was something she chose to do, so I just let it happen. The why's or what her thoughts and experience around that is none of my concern.

The week prior, she informed me that she wanted to have the kids next weekend for their own family outing (expiring tickets to an outdoor event). It bothered me because that was her reason for having the kids two weekends ago (which happened to be a five day weekend I COULD have had the kids)... so it seems "unfair", but the past is just that and I choose to continue living in the present and for the future. I had a negative thought, worked through it, and let it go.

My W decided to ask my oldest to pick some stuff up for her while we were on the trip. Rather than having her find her own method of getting the stuff, I didn't give it much thought. I know that my W was in fairly constant contact with my oldest. Again, I am no longer concerning myself with what the conversations are about or whether my W is inquiring about what "we" are doing, or perhaps even what I might be doing or saying. Again, I pretty much don't think about it, only to mention it here.

My W indicated to me that she was going out socially this weekend with the friends I know supported her emotional separation from me. This was done f2f when I picked up the kids and I KNOW I physically gave off a negative reaction, but quickly composed myself and let it go. When I dropped off the kids, there was someone there (female, W supportive and generally non-communicative with me) and conversation was friendly and engaging with both of them and it appeared that the day's social activities had been cut short for my W much earlier than she suggested on friday. I made no comment on that observation.

The point of all that is, as I mentioned in a prior post, while my W does not appear to be moving closer to me by any measure, she certainly appears much less confrontational or private about her life. And that is a HUGE step from where she was, even just 3 months ago.

I guess in summary, I can say this...

What I am doing, is working...

for me...

I was redeading this and I noticed something that may be a problem for my H and I. You wrote about your W going out socially with friends who supported her emeotional separation from you.

My best friend made herself clear when she sent my H some texts when it all came out in the open about OW. She told him she wouldn't be his friend anymore if he divorced me.

I spend a lot of time with her, and H has brought up how she isn't his friend anymore, and he is very critical of her and her whole family. I wonder if he is mad about my continued friendship with her.

Thinking!
Wendy

When all of this started for me, I had a couple friends who were "on my side" and made some comments to my W on their own accord. At the time, it kind of felt at least a BIT balanced, considering all the "friends" that supported my W and I know made derogatory remarks about me, even though not to my face. But I knew from the beginning and had it confirmed here, that type of thing only helps one feel "better", momentarily.

While I hoped to surround myself with people who would support my stand (and aside from those here... those people seem to not really exist IRL), I most certainly distanced myself from those who would decide to be my champions.

To be sure, that left me with very few friends that I could associate with. I have been very "lonely" over the past year and a half.

I've known and had been reminded here, that one cannot control another. So I cannot prevent someone from making negative comments to and about my W any more than I can control them from telling me to "get on with life, let her go", etc... and encouraging me to get out and meet new people and go on dates because I "deserve to be happy"...

So while inwardly, I have been struggling with feeling "safe" to be with those I was friends with pre-bomb and therefore disengaging with any and all who would attempt to sway me or encourage me one way or the other and therefore being lonely for the absence of familiar faces, outwardly I may be appearing to be in huge depression and withdrawing from the world and human contact. I am not concerned with how others may perceive my behaviour (although that's not entirely true and if confronted with my time spent alone, I do my best to articulate my choices).

For me, THAT is setting appropriate boundaries. It is DBing my friends (and family) in the same way that I have been DBing my W.

In saying the above, for me it is very clear that (while I still cannot say that I want to R with my W) I am being very careful to ensure there are no external barriers that would prevent an R with my W, other than my own (appropriate) personal behavioural changes that might be necessary. Because I KNOW how I would feel if my W suddenly wanted to R and I would have to associate with those whom asserted such negativity about me, to my W. And how it would be wrong of me to assert that she not be friends with these people who are familiar to her and "safe" for her. Or worse, having her family members "disown" her, if she chose to R.

Here is what we speak of in DB, though... repeated over and over, ad infinitum...

Do what works for you. Do the things that you can live the rest of your life with... Make choices that set the precedence for yourself into the future and do not change your core values or the "true you"... because choices to the contrary only create an unbalanced future for us...

Like the financial aspects of my SA (and potentially D), I was never concerned about the money. I KNOW I can always make more money. I also know that I can always make new friends. I can always remain friendly with those whom I have been friends with in the past, but I do not need to hold them close. I know I can protect myself and while it feels good and IT IS GOOD to have friends that you KNOW will have your back if something goes wrong... I have met a lot of people "out there" who would have my back, and not encourage negative behaviours in myself, nor act negatively towards my W in the name of "supporting" me...

We all know the saying that 25 has in her sig...

"Would you rather be right, or would you rather be married..."

That saying is not a judgement, but an open and honest question we need to ask ourselves.

It is OK to choose to be right...

It is OK to choose to be M...

It is OK to choose to associate with people who may not be M friendly...

It all depends on what our goals are...

It is up to your H to be mad about your friendships... not for you to change them BECAUSE he might be (or is) mad about it... rather for you to change it, if it is right for you...

In the same way, it is OK for me to be upset with and not associate with those people who spoke negatively about me, to my W.

IF my W wanted to R, I would have to make a choice to be with her which would include everything and anyone and any behaviour that comes with her...

BUT...

It is NOT my place to tell her to choose her friends over me... to choose her family over me... to let go of any behaviours she is attached to, in order to be with me...

That is her choice...

In the same way that I would not deny that right for anyone I might have a R with in the future...

In the same way that it is my right to change because I want to and not to placate my W or anyone else who might become involved with me in the future...

Very well put! Now to ponder it all.....

Thanks!

Wendy

Over the past week I have been thinking more and more about moving on. I decided I am ready. I have also decided that I will file D if and when I am both ready and have reason to. If my W wants D sooner than that, it will be up to her.

I have a few things left at the house that I'll be making arrangements to get out of there. Anything else that she does not "tag" as mine for removal at that time, I'm not concerned about. She can toss that stuff. I wanted to wait until the weather got better as I did not want to risk damage to the items, so the weather is better...

I had come to this conclusion prior to picking the kids up this past weekend. There was some miscommunication around the "flex" schedule and I inadvertently and unintentionally appeared to have agreed to taking the kids to an event that I know they do not want to go to. I had not actually been contacted by the host of the event and made no personal commitment to the event host. I was also unclear about the schedule and we decided that I would have the kids for part of spring break.

I admitted that I misunderstood and did not intend to commit myself and the kids and that I was OK if my W wanted to take them next weekend.

It appears that my W is now punishing me for that choice and so has indicated it's not her problem and that I will have the kids for the weekend, back on Sunday... which... by omission, means that the spring break monday, tuesday, part wed is now not part of the flex agreement...

Totally expected...

Just journaling about it... I'm perfectly fine with that.

KD

just so I have this straight...

did you decide to move on because of this miscommunication, and the follow up,

which appears punitive or thoughtless on her end, due to the "flex schedule" except

that she honestly thinks you agreed to?

Friend, I'm Just asking...

Good question, 25.

Absolutely not moving on because of some specific event.

I did not want to move my stuff because of the weather, but I also did not want to move my stuff because they are 80 year old antiques that I don't want to get damaged in storage, so on the off chance that things might have been resolved between the two of us, it would be better for those items to move as little as possible.

I admit that this "punishment" on the flex schedule from my W is just a reminder of what I don't want, it was by no means the reason.

I'm ready to move on. Something I can honestly say I've been working myself to over the past 3 months. And I can honestly say that this behaviour from my W has not really had any affect what soever. As I mentioned, I actually expected some retaliation and grinned when I read the response.

I have truly accepted that my W's path is away from me. I have truly accepted that my path, precludes my W. And I'm really OK with that.

Just to be clear, I completely understand that she may have felt that I agreed to what she was thinking when she originally "asked", which was "the kids have an event and I (she) thinks they should go" to which I responded, "ok, if you want them to go, then I'll be OK with that".

What I "heard" was that she committed them to the event and would be taking them. What she apparently heard was that she told me about the event and I agreed to take them.

Honest mistake on both parts. I actually asked my kids and they DO NOT want to go. And truth be told, neither did I. So when the miscommunication was brought to light, I let my W know that while I did not want to take the kids, that I was open to her taking them (really, I am ok with that possibility)... In the lesser of two evils, I'm OK with offending the host over having my kids do something they don't want to do which is also not really age appropriate for them (actually something oriented towards kids ages 3 to 6; unless it was family relation based).

Well... apparently SHE does not want to go to the event, either...

So the only thing I can think, and it doesn't matter (I'm ok with taking any heat on this) is that she is passing the buck and washing her hands of any responsibility...

Hey, I get it... if I felt ok with passing the buck and blame... well, why not...

lol... ok, last little add on, here...

We actually don't have a flex schedule. We have a fixed schedule which is "open to flexibility should we both agree."

Again... easily understood miscommunication...

and again, as I mention above and really sure and sincere of... I am completely OK with moving on, now... this misunderstanding has no bearing on making or keeping that choice...

Just a quick follow up and I appologize to those who read my thread and expect more interesting tripe...

Much quicker than expected, my W has back peddled and has agreed to what I thought was the original agreement, which was her having the kids this weekend and me picking up some time during spring break.

I did expect the spew to happen first which could have come in the form of "get your stuff out of the house" or "when are you filing D?"... although I'm not convinced that won't happen within the week, yet... lol...

Anyhow, no matter... and it's understandable that my W's response indicated that she was concerned I would retaliate by denying her time with the kids next month (or any future date) as per our SA... That thought never crossed my mind as I was willingly offering the weekend to my W as my response to the miscommunication and obligation that I unwittingly but apparently placed myself in.

Just for your clarification 25, again... this "event" did not cause me to make a choice to move on and this change also does not change my choice to move on...

ah... I get where it wasn't really clear, 25...

Reading this part:

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I had come to this conclusion prior to picking the kids up this past weekend. There was some miscommunication around the "flex" schedule ...

Right, that all blends as though there was a miscommunication and I decided to move on... oh contraire... I had firmed up my decision about a week and a half ago (as I realized that we really are moving in different directions) and the miscommunication happened at a later date...

I just found the miscommunication issue interesting and possibly worth mentioning for any who might see similarities...

If my intentions at the beginning truly were to D, then I have been successful and my actions throughout this ordeal have worked...

If my intentions were to R, then what ever I have done to this point have not worked... that being a word of warning to others to NOT do what I have done if their sitchs appear similar to mine...

OK, I think the horse is dead, now... lol!

Hey Kaffe!

These decisions are tough. As I am working through some of the same things I am paying attention.

My decision becomes clearer each day. I realize I cannot continue to be walking wounded. I need to start to heal.

Sounds like you are healing!

Aloha,

Wendy

Yes, some choices aren't so tough, others... well...

I was thinking to myself about how the choices are tough because of how attached I am to the marital vows... but realized that it's not so much that I'm attached to them...

It is more that I consider myself "a man of my word" where my word is my honour... Probably an artefact of growing up with alcoholic parents who were prone to "forget" things (including boundaries)...

Of course, if my W were to hear those words come out of my mouth, she would probably laugh and call me a liar, since that was one of her issues with me, that she couldn't trust me which stemmed from my "lies". Not to rationalize, but I'm a bit of a risk taker so the lies are things like not telling her that the phone bill is not paid (or alternately, telling her it is, when it hadn't been) in order to not get into YET another argument about me being late on a payment... and hope that I can pay the bill without her finding out... that's the extent of it... but of course, those lies (and yes, they WERE lies) would catch up to me...

My take away from that would be: a) admit and be responsible for the uncomfortable things, or b) pay the bills on time which really means do not, that which may become uncomfortable...

But I never forget a debt and I never forget a promise I've made. And I do mean never... I do not have people "remind" me of a debt or promise because I had not forgotten... as I said, my word is my honour...

So having said that, it has been difficult for me to make the choice to "move on" because of my vows. The only thing I can do is rationalize that this and anything further is the "for worse" part...

For me, part of the stumbling block had been because the future I envision for myself includes an intimate partner or spouse... so just having those thoughts that it might be someone other than my W is understood by my brain as being contrary to my vows, or perhaps akin to "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" (even though I am by no means highly religious)...

So I've had to work through that stuff in order to move forward, without rescinding my vows or word to the church, witnesses, my W nor my children...

I had to get to a point where I was comfortable moving forward alone (which really isn't a problem) yet ALSO with the forethought that my future will include an intimate partner...

With that, my statement above, that I will file if and when necessary, that would be because I make the choice to become intimate with someone... I don't know what that (that moment I will make the decision to file) might look like... but it is there, it is my promise... my word... my honour...

And with that, I can move forward...

And yes... like you stated in your thread... that can be a slow process to go through... to come to those decisions...

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

ah... I get where it wasn't really clear, 25...

Reading this part:

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I had come to this conclusion prior to picking the kids up this past weekend. There was some miscommunication around the "flex" schedule ...

OK, I think the horse is dead, now... lol!

got it. it is dead now! You shot it.

Maybe harsh, but definitely fair.

Yes, I am shooting the horse.

From where I stand, there is no M to save. I have to be honest with myself, there was nothing to save two years ago. I just wasn't ready to admit it.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

maybe...but if given the choice, wouldn't you rather have stood a bit too long,

than quit a bit too early?

We all want perfect vision and clarity. But sometimes all we have is our commitment and stubbornness, and the wish to do right by our loved ones.

And that has to be enough.

Truth be told, I have a long standing history of (from "outsider's perspective"; ie. my "loved ones") of:

a) making bad choices
b) staying with something long past it's expiry date

I have never regretted any of the "bad" choices I have made, I have no regrets over any choice. I have had some great successes... and I have some great... learning experiences...

Not a single person has told me that leaving the house and the sitch was a bad choice...

If I lived my life based on what others say or believe, I have to say I never would have had the amazing life that I've had, to date...

I have been encouraged by most everyone, my family, my friends, my W... heck... even my kids... to "move on"... instead, I chose to stand...

I did what I could to become my authentic self and correct some behaviours and paradigms that were not serving me well for my M... probably not for any R...

I know stubborn... and I label it as commitment, persistence, perseverence.... I have hit depths of emotional, financial, and spiritual pains that I never thought I was capable of surviving, not just in this sitch, but in past experiences as well... I've said to myself, "never again"... yet, I will probably do it, yet again... all for the cause of having the most full life I can live...

I also have a tremendous amount of compassion... loyalty... honour... courage... love...

I see others, here and elsewhere... having this experience... who stand for much longer than I... who have seen the benefits of standing... even while it does not save their M... and I know that I can stand for a life time... It's in me to do...

I don't know what the future will bring (of course) one way or the other. What I DO know is, standing the way I have been is not helping anyone at this point. I am stuck...

So I've chosen to unstick myself... how that looks to me, right now, is to open back up to the world around me and welcome and engage it... all the possible experiences out there that might be...

What kept me stuck was my belief that... just one more thing... there are a million ways... etc., etc... focused on the M...

Having been able to say to myself... to release myself of limitations of the M... to be completely open to filing D, if and when I feel it necessary... if some other R came about... to be willing to stop trying to fix my broken M...

That has opened up a door for me to move forward...

And I know... without a shadow of a doubt... that tomorrow... I may course correct... a year from now... 10 years from now...

I had to dump the baggage, for with it... I was unable... perhaps unequipped... to move forward... towards a better life for myself and my kids...

Hi Kaffe!

I agree there is a time to get "unstuck". And it is hard to see when one is "stuck". Like a fly on fly paper. I'm sure all the poor fly does is vainly pull and pull to get free from the sticky mess. The the fly dies......... forever stuck!

So using a little self-help solvent, you are ready to melt that sticky stuff away and get free.

You speak of baggage. I see that with me, too. And while I am dumping baggage hopefully I am becoming a better person. And although my kids are older, I also want to be able to make a better life for me and my kids!

You also said what has kept you stuck was your belief in doing just one more thing, I'm guessing then the next just one more thing. I just counted 23 R books in my stash here.

I can't fix it all by myself. I can make changes til I'm blue. And it doesn't matter. My H is done. Maybe someday he will come around, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

Several people have told me to move on, but leave room for him to catch up later. I hate to say this, but if I move on it will most likely be in the form of a new relationship. And it wouldn't be fair to a new person coming into my life to be jettisioned if old person decided to come back.

People say they don't need a R. That is silly. This whole site is about saving our R. We are a couple orientated society. Most of us are conditioned to be part of a couple.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

hey Wendy,

One thing about this site is, the members support one another, regardless of the choices we make... but,

they WILL challenge us in the choices we make...

Early in our sitchs, it feels easier to just let go, and we are challenged to try, just a little longer... we get our second winds and find some new way to help create positive change...

In other cases, there's those of us who cling and push, attempting to control and manipulate and for them, they're challenged to let go...

If I had firmly proclaimed that I would continue to stand, I would hope and expect that someone would challenge me at this point in time, whether it was in my best interest... in my kid's best interest...

Just because we know these things, does not mean we ignore the challenges. It can be valuable to have those words from our "subconscious" questioning our choices... those of our members, here...

I can stand and move forward, but what I'm really saying is... I can't stand AND be open to engaging in a possible, new R if it came about...

My "stuck" is that, if someone were to flirt with me or show interest in me in more than just a friendly manner... I, being M and standing, would (and have) turned away from or avoided such advances...

I no longer want to do that. I no longer want to have the M and my standing, prevent me from seeking such a R...

My brain... my vows... they truly prevent me from moving forward, in that way... I am moving forward in pretty much every other aspect of my life... just not that one...

One could tell me that I don't have to make that decision, now... that no one is knocking on my door... that I don't have someone in mind whom I believe is receptive...

Again, the reality for me is... That door is solidly shut from even the consideration of it, while I remain committed to, and standing for my M...

So that's the "bag" that I let go... I needed to frame in my mind that I am dumping that bag and opening that door... and that I am ready and willing to file, if that new R appears... That I do not have that tie or connection with my W, that may prevent me from fully committing to any R that may come...

"People say they don't need a R. That is silly."

No it's true. You really don't need a R. R is a choice. You don't need it to survive. In fact the thing about DB is to put you in a place where you reclaim who you were prior to the R problems that made you attractive to the spouse in the first place.

"This whole site is about saving our R."

Yes but you don't need to be tethered to your spouse to save it.

"We are a couple orientated society. Most of us are conditioned to be part of a couple."

Not really. How did you survive before you met your H?

Originally Posted By: WenikiTiki

I think you can move on to the other side of the shore. Your h knows how to reach you.

IF that time comes, THEN you can decide if he's really ready/committed AND IF he's really worth it, AND IF you could ever get past all that has happened.

I had to ask myself at one point if I was standing b/c I simply didn't know what else to do,

or b/c I did not want to "lose" and be the rejected party, OR b/c I really wanted to be married to MY h.

Over time, my reasons evolved & changed. The work my h did is what made that last piece true for us.

If that had not happened or if he backslides in a big way, that would change MY view. I would not be here.

Well MrBond......

You asked how did I survive before I met my H?

I was the full time caretaker of my family. Since I was about 11. So I went from taking care of them, to taking care of a 16 year old roommate, to taking care of my H. Yikes.

And wow, you really just opened my eyes on that one.....

So healthy people don't need a R to survive. Arg! Hand slapping forhead! Not being sarcastic, absolutely having a epiphany here!

I am wondering why I go to therapy. I get way more insight and workable knowledge from you all here. Seriously.

Kaffe, I am not good at challenging peoples choices. But I am working on it...... I wouldn't have been a good lawyer!

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: WenikiTiki

Hi Kaffe!

I agree there is a time to get "unstuck". ---

You speak of baggage. I see that with me, too. And while I am dumping baggage hopefully I am becoming a better person.

to ME, this^^^ is the first goal of DBing. Not saving the r...

but that can happen as a byproduct of one person changing, which changes the dynamic in the marriage b/c the m is a 2 person r and if one of them changes, IT changes.

And I am seeing that, my changes have been noticed by my H and remarked on and in some cases fought over. He still tells me to cook his dinner, buy his food, other stuff, because I and taking his hard earned money. I have continued to do so. But loaded up the freezer with frozen meals. This is a change in the making.....

And although my kids are older, I also want to be able to make a better life for me and my kids!
----

I can't fix it all by myself. I can make changes til I'm blue. And it doesn't matter. My H is done. Maybe someday he will come around, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

so why not still do your own personal work? Since getting him back was not supposed to be the GOAL of your changes, (that would mean they were merely tactics to get him back, and Not genuine, permanent changes you wanted to make in YOUR life or your self...make sense?

Why does his reaction affect your personal work?

To me that is a clear sign that I am not as detached as I need to be. Working really hard on it. I even managed to stop playing dumb word games on the phones with him.

Several people have told me to move on, but leave room for him to catch up later. I hate to say this, but if I move on it will most likely be in the form of a new relationship. And it wouldn't be fair to a new person coming into my life to be jettisioned if old person decided to come back.

so are you saying you will have to have a new man in your life in order to move on from your h? Even if your h married OW? Sorry I'm confused.

I mean, are you saying you cannot live as a woman Not in a relationship? I'm not clear here. You "must" be part of a couple... or what? You'll just wait for your h to return?

Fair point. I think I am WAY to codependant. So part of my work is most definatly in the part where I can be comfortable being alone. And I am an independent cuss. Stayed alone on the boat in Frisco 2 times for 2 months each time. Absolutly loved it. But was secure in knowing H was there. And I was doing the boat stuff for H!

So maybe I am concerned because part of separating/divorcing leaves me alone and being pursued by other men. I am very outgoing and often have to clarify that I was being friendly, not hitting on someone. I don't want to sound crazy, but there are several people who orbit in my world currently who I feel keep track of my whereabouts way to closely.

So that is a place where I have to work. Setting better boundaries, so people don't mistake my intensions.

I think right now my H is separated from me in his head. I am trying to be separate from him. Going on with my life. Reading the stars onn my mirror inspired by you: "Create a New Beautiful Life For Me"

People say they don't need a R. That is silly. This whole site is about saving our R. We are a couple orientated society. Most of us are conditioned to be part of a couple.

Not sure about that^^^.... I don't always like being married, and it often has nothing to do with my marriage or h.

Just that I always have to consider another person's views on something before I can do it. That has been the case since I was in college when I met my h

before that, I was in my father's house.

I think it could be lovely to be on my own doing what I want to do first in situations b/c I never really have. Our first child was born while I was in law school. Hey I love my kids and my h. But there are times I want them to go away.

If I were single again, oh yes I would date. I like companionship. But I like my indendence/self reliance even more. So it would take a very unusual man AND situation for me to marry again.

It takes so much energy and it fosters a bit too much dependence in many situations. That leads to LBSers who cling far too long to someone who is not there anymore.

Yes, must stop clinging! I realize I even get my animals in pairs. I must get over that mentality. I am not Noah! Life is not an Ark!
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I agree with the above. My reasons are changing. My H has a lot of work to do. I am pretty sure that at this point he has no idea that there is anything for him to do. I hate to leave Hawaii. But could plan a yearly visit here. And get myself into a place where I can grow. And afford to live.......

Thanks Kaffe for allowing the hijack!

Thanks 25 for your always welcome and clear headed thoughts.

Crud...

Well, just a little update.

Got some spew from W this weekend. I caught D14 in a "lie" (withholding; I didn't push further because I didn't want her to get into a full blown lie) about who she was with this weekend. It revolved around her not being around on Sunday when I dropped D9 off and I found out she was hanging out with OM3.

Long story short on that, OM3 appears to no longer be much of an OM. It appears that my W has now (although she is "attached" or attracted to him) just good friends with him which I suspect is because she is trying to set him up with her 21 year old niece or W's 26 year old BFF. Even so, my W continues to tell my kids to not speak of him when in my presence.

This is who D14 was out with and I just told D14 that I was aware she was with him and that she really needs to stop hiding him.

It was a stupid thing of me, but I really will not tolerate my kids lying to me. At 14, I still believe that it is my right to know if she's hanging with druggies or at drinking parties, etc, etc...

Of course, this then gets back to my W who then finds out that I let my D14 know that I wasn't going to attend a sporting event of hers because I knew that these same people that my W wants hidden from me, were going to be at the sporting event with my W and D14...

I get that could appear immature of me. But my logic says, if my W is uncomfortable with me knowing about these friends and when she hangs around with them, then I don't think she'd be real comfortable with me going to an event where she is going to be with them... *shrug*

So... I got spew... got the whole, "I would tell you that OM3 and I are NOT romantically involved, we are just friends, but I won't bother because I know you won't believe me..."

uh... ok... Perhaps she missed the memo on I don't care who she is with or what she is doing, but I DO care what my kids are doing and who they are with...

Anyhow...

Next on the roster here is that I picked up pretty much the rest of my stuff up from the house. W wanted me to get it out of the house 'cause it was in the way of a gym she is creating in the basement. This was planned a couple weeks ago, so I made arrangements to pick it up this eve.

Kinda interesting because I let my W know when I was going to be there and she said that was good and that she would be there. I was about 15 minutes late and as I am driving up the street, my W is driving away... I had a vehicle she may not have recognized so I don't know if she saw me, but as we passed, she had this real... IDK... out of sorts look on her face.

Short story here is, I thought she was going to pick D9 up from an after school meeting and would be right back. I was loading up the truck with my stuff and a friend who's child was also at the meeting pulls up and drops D9 off. I was at the house for about an hour and W did not show up... So kinda anti-climactic, non-event. All that's left there now is my bike and some tools. Easy enough to take with my car at a later date.

So here's the cruncher, though...

D14 is "dating" some local kid. This boy was "kinda" seeing D14 at one point and then changed his mind, dumped D14 and went back to his exGF (who is a friend of D14s). So let's just say he didn't start things off with a good impression... But somehow, he changes his mind again and decides to go back with D14 and she's thrilled...

So I see D14 tonight at the house and... yup... D14's got a hickie... and she's slightly embarrassed... and apparently, W doesn't know... and I'm thinking... that's first base, isn't it...?

I'm real concerned about that and more so because I am pretty sure that W is not big on awareness and parental uniting the kids at this time... there is a lot of time when D14 is "left alone" to her own desires... not to mention that BF is 16 and has his own truck, that I know he's giving D14 rides as she asks...

OMFG...

So, without breaking the promise to D14 that I wouldn't tell W about the hickie, I simply emailed my W to let her know that I was a little concerned about where that relationship might be going. I do hope that my W clues in and starts to pay attention to the goings on with D14...

*sigh*... Not like I can ground D14 or otherwise discipline her... D14 is "choosing" not to visit with me and generally does not conform and if I attempt to discipline, she tells W (who spews on me) and D14 then distances from me...

Any who....

that's today's report...

I guess a quick update, though not sure why I'm posting. Feeling a little chatty today, I guess...

W responds to my concerns indicating she's got it all covered... meh... I had only expected that maybe she would have mentioned that she noticed the hickie. I had hoped that seeing that would have made my W sit up and notice that maybe it's NOT ok to leave a 16 year old boy with a 14 year old girl alone for a couple hours...

hmmmmm... now that I think about it... things have been awful quiet from over there this eve... I texted D14 a couple things this eve with no response... I wonder...

Yes, it's possible that D14 is just doing her thing, but considering the texting we did during the day today, I would have expected her to respond to my texts this eve...

So to get on that, D14 sent me a text this morning that kinda hurt. Told me she trusted me with not telling W about the hickie and that I blew that trust. I let her know that I did not tell W about the hickie, but I did say I was concerned... that was followed with a number of angry texts from D14 and me just saying as a dad, i'm worried for her...

We eventually came to an accord... She understands that I'd be worried and I understand she wants her freedom to pursue love... She knows I trust her, but not him... and she promises not to "go there", like other girls at her school, her age...

The rest of the day was spent texting about fun stuff and I really have to say that there remains a good connection between the two of us... I have to remember that when my W spews about D14, it may not always be what it seems...

So yeah, like I say... things are a little quiet "over there"... D14's usual vectors of comm and a response to my last text around supper are oddly... non-existent. I guess if anything is up, I will eventually hear about it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IDK, I just remain baffled to some degree. Maybe it's just because of "where" I am in my sitch...

I got a lot of the standard spew, along with the silent treatment and the MYOB stuff from my W... Very little specifics on what I did wrong, if anything... like a WAS submission, choke hold...

Everything was wrong in the M, I don't trust you, ILYBINILWY, too little, too late... and then wham, detachment, silence and more spew to keep me at bay... and then... limbo... no D... nothing...

wtf... ???

I still sometimes wonder if I'm the WAS and she's trying to DB me in some strange, P/A way...

Where's the precedence, here...? No... I mean, really...

Is it the sitchs where the WAS goes away and eventually, the LBS just has enough limbo and files...? What's the stats on that, I wonder...?

bleh... a person can drive themselves nuts, I tell you...

kinda like sitting in a sound proofed room...

alone...

with no noise...

in the dark...

in the vacuum of space...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quick note... D14 is alive and well... she texted to tell me that she went to bed early... then I noticed on a social networking source that she posted about getting 12 hours of sleep...

Did a morals check on her about hickie. She let me know that she is embarrassed about it and knows it is trashy... I validated and said I was glad she new it could look that way... that it wasn't necessarily some badge of honour... I'm sure many of us have been there and have learned that message... lol...

Weekend is coming up and no word from W about the change in the schedule. Last I let her know was that I'd be picking D9 up Saturday at noon (my extra give) instead of late Friday at some distant transfer point...

Anyhow, I think that's about it for me for updates for a while, again...

Like I said, I think I was just feeling a little chatty and dealing with the stress of the drama from earlier this week and moving my stuff the other day...

Hey Kaffe,

1 thing I've learned through all this is that I make no promises to the kids about anything. When H and I split, we made the kids were 100% sure that H and I would keep no secrets about what the kids did- good or bad. That as parents we would always share 100% of what happened and we'd back each other up (whether or not we agreed with the others choice); thus eliminating them being able to pit one of us against the other.

That is what i see happening with D14. Since you promised, she could be mad at you for telling, mad at you if mom found out, and get mom mad at you when mom found out, all the while taking the freedoms that came with your silence and mom's "cluelessness".

Thanks, Sox...

Yeah, I think that's a good way to come at it. Unfortunately, my wife and I did not have that agreement. We both understood the "rules" about keeping the kids out of harms way. Our interpretations and applications of those rules were hardly perfect. The kids were our number one battle in this and we've had some pretty significant disagreements on the raising and discipline of the kids our entire relationship.

It was only during the days following the promise to D14 that I realized I had trapped myself in a double bind. Having done that, I did my best to "single parent" that concern. But definitely learned my lesson on that one and will do my best not to put myself in that position again.

While it is a reason or excuse in the larger sense, the reality is that D14 has held that "power" from the moment that I became involved with W and her. I did not know how to fit into their relationship as both a husband AND a dad. There is a tight bond between them that I am not allowed into. But I do believe that it truly interferes / interfered with my ability to fulfil those roles, 100%.

I appreciate that feedback.

oh, just a passing memory of picking D9 up earlier in the day...

D9 was chatty and there was a lot of info being passed between me and W about stuff... nothing big, really... in a way, this is our time to "catch up" with daily life with each other, regarding the kids...

Anyhow, D9 has this book in her hand and I admit I was half paying attention to each of them, being a guy and unable to multitask well...

So D9 makes a reference to the book and then says something to the effect of, something, something, "if you two started dating each other"...

hunh?

W makes a quick and light comment... jokingly to be sure, at least that's how it sounded to me, "oh, dad and I don't have time for that"... I near buckled in half and just laughed out loud (at my D9's comment) and then at W's comment and said, "yeah, that's for sure..."

I found out after that the book is one given to her by a resource teacher at school for kids who are dealing with divorce...

Man, out of the mouths of babes and the craziest of timing... I think D9 had it all planned out... D9 also told me later, after stating during the ride that she knows mom and dad aren't getting back together, that her and W watched a movie before I picked her up... asked if I could guess the movie... of course I couldn't and I said what movie? She says to me, "The Parent Trap"...

I love my kids... lol...

Just putting some thoughts down...

Been having a lot of conversations about double binds and deal breakers on this forum...

I know that I got myself into a lot of double binds... trying to fix one problem only put the spotlight on other problems or new problems caused by the fix... only to have the fix become part of an every bigger problem...

Deal breakers? Have some...

Just as I'm sure that some of my characteristics are deal breakers for others... funny how we think primarily of what characteristics in others would be deal breakers for us... and don't think about what characteristics in us that would be deal breakers for others...

D9 has an extracurricular event tonight. I've known about it for about a month now. Partly because information that I had before had the date being two weeks ago. I do know that it wasn't just my W who was unclear on the date of the event. Anyhow, no big deal, just noting that.

But talking about deal breakers. As noted above in my last posts, I found out that this event is tonight. I took charge and made plans for it, assuming that plans... what my W was thinking around the event, were... Everything was set...

But, I realized I should confer with my W to make sure we were on the same page. My W responded that we were... that I would still be taking D9 to the event.

Here's where I sit up and go... "are you kidding me?"

Here's the positive part... my W received info about the event and through what ever convo she had with an event planner, the topic of warm clothes came up, so W lets me know that she will have warm clothes ready for D9 to take with...

But here's where I think... "do you really have no idea that people can take care of their own stuff, without interference?"

Basically, in the same response from my W is information on where to go, who to meet, contact info, times, etc...

So hey, no big deal. It's like you have a passenger in the car with you and they yell out "red light"... and you KNOW the colour of the traffic lights ahead of you...

Do you say, "mind your own business... I've got it covered..."

Or do you say, "thank you..." because while the likelihood is that they are simply concerned about their own safety... they are simply giving you additional feedback which confirms that which you may or may not already know...

I thanked my W for the info and letting me know the stuff would be there for D9...

The crazy making part is the thing that I can be tolerant to, to some degree... but when it leans to... when I feel like it is... something that my mother would do for me when I was a child... what...??? Like I'm not an adult that can take care of this type of stuff?

So on the one hand, I appreciate her interest and desire to be helpful... and it is just her nature to do so... it's not me... it's anyone... and for goodness sake, I will be with her child, so she certainly wants to make sure her kid is safe, comfortable, and has fun...

But in the context of her telling me to "mind your own business" because she can take care of her own life... and my kids... without help, support, feedback, or interference...

The shoe apparently does not fit on the other foot...

The double bind...?

In the past, I would simply say, "sure honey. Thanks. Go ahead and take care of all the fine details and I will simply follow the agenda and map that you give to me, because I know it's important to you to feel in control of a situation..."

Yet, that same thing threw up on my face...

Suddenly, she felt she had to do everything for me. That I was not responsible. That I could not take care of my own business, children, life... and she felt trapped by it... we were BOTH in a double bind... created by BOTH of ourselves...

So... what's the deal...

Are things really deal breakers? Or are they things that are fine characteristics for anyone to have... but without appropriate boundaries... and appropriate mutual respect and trust of both parties... we say we don't like those characteristics...

Someone (s)mothers us? Deal breaker...
Someone is quick to offer us suggestions? Deal breaker...
Someone wants to have their own time to have personal fun? Deal breaker...
Someone has trouble paying attention? Deal breaker...
A bad memory? Deal breaker...
States their opinion? Deal breaker...

Are things really deal breakers...? Or are they things that we'd appreciate in anyone else, in a different context... but because they are coming from our spouses... we don't like them and they are deal breakers...

As my D14 said a while back...

We need to check ourselves, before we wreck ourselves...

Things don't have to be deal breakers... they can be very beneficial... it's just the context... and it is up to us to define that context and maintain boundaries around them...

Kaffe.

I've spent the last few days reading through your threads, after having met you on Autumns thread...

I have a few questions/observations. And, I apologize if you already explained, and I missed it...

I'm do sorry about the infidelity that has broken up your marriage. I know the sting of it. It's not a good feeling.
You have a fantastic outlook and humor. Never lose that.
I really admire your love for your girls.

- I see some of your STBX in myself... Re: leading in regards to kids and their schedules/needs. I think most Moms do this. However, you have post after post of non-leading behavior and opportunities under your belt. You "let" STBX do everything. You assume her way is better. You allow her to lead everyone. (Having knowledge of her staying out until wee hours of am/almost overnight, w/a D13 in charge? Really? I'm embarrassed as a Mom. I'm seriously concerned as a fellow citizen.).

- Financial/Finances. There's a really good thread started on another marriage site in regards to gender roles, careers, etc... I think you would benefit from the opinions in there. Have you found a job yet? Have you moved from your parents yet? (sorry, some of this I read during insomnia!!). Some people end up not working, because they wait for the right opportunity, keep starting new businesses, etc... There is nothing wrong w/an honest days labor doing just about anything... It appears that you've had a lot if years of not leading your family financially. STBX has taken over that role ... Not very feminine, doesn't make her feel like she's being taken care if, etc... (Confusion, too, when you talk about living at poverty level, but buying a new Beener/E320... I had an E320 wagon. It's EXPENSIVE to maintain... Just doesn't reconcile w/the rest of your life)

I think you had/have a decent chance if pulling off some serious 180's. I'm not sure if you have the tolerance and/or desire to forgive infidelity... But, based on reading all if this... Those two observations could have been real turnarounds IMO.

You are offering great advice to others. Make sure you're living your own word, and taking care of you.

Hi Mindfull, thanks for popping by.

Yes, I've always been "playful", good sense of humour. Had a lot of that growing up with others to me and me back. A lot of reasons to have humour as a defense mechanism, as well. My tool of choice.

I agree that we will see ourselves in the genders that either show up here or are spoken of. I also find it interesting how often I see myself in the WASs being spoken of here which is why I often question myself in that regard.

Although, and I can't remember who specifically pointed this out at one time on the board, that the labels of LBS and WAS... they're just labels and don't define us. Each person is unique and each sitch is unique so there really is no "one size fits all" answer...

IRT the "opportunities to lead" that you indicate you have seen throughout my sitch, I agree. They've been there. As often as I keep a sense of humour about myself, what may not have shown up is the deep pain I felt over the loss of my daughters by the choice I made.

That pain translated in a number of ways which varied from trying to keep the road home paved and smoothed and therefore not interfering with what I perceive as my W wanting to lead the family schedule to an absolute need to protect myself from my W and therefore hiding myself away from her.

Those are just reasons though, of course. There's no time like the present as they say, and I also have a lifetime ahead of me, to start picking up the slack or taking on a role of being in charge. Slowly, I am working to "fix" that in me.

My W so often accused me of snooping and that was true. I still do appreciate knowing what is going on "over there" so that I can get a sense of whether I should be concerned for my kids.

Yes, there were many times that my W left the kids alone, that I found out after the fact. What I am comfortable with to a greater degree is that my kids will be OK, physically, in those situations. Emotionally...? Maybe not so much... but the law doesn't consider emotional much if at all, in regards to the protection of children. That's left to the parents and adults in charge.

In the end, it does appear that my W had no more than a year of that behaviour under her belt and the actual number of times was probably under a dozen. More often, she would take the kids with her to these parties so at least there were others around to keep an eye over all the kids.

Regarding the financials, yes... an E320 is expensive to maintain and it was the one "perk" that I allowed myself in this. The minimal cost of the purchase combined with the proof of up to date maintenance was the reason for the purchase, although that savings will probably just offset the maintenance cost that I have to look forward to. I did see it as a loss off the lot though. So I'm simply enjoying it while I can and expect nothing of it in return except for the enjoyment of having it for the moment.

On the job front. I have picked up a few odd contracts. Nothing big. I do have a job lined up that begins in May. Yes, having a "real" job does have it's value in satisfaction and earnings.

I won't defend my lack of jobs during my M, but when we got together I had decent earnings. While my W's net during the M was more than mine, there were many years my gross was more than my W's and being independent, I could shift resources when and as necessary. I think I downplay my financial contribution perhaps because I've accepted that to some degree as my W's complaint. Let's just say that when a $1000 utility bill or $400 phone bill or $1500 home maintenance bill would surprise us, I was able to take care of it in a timely manner.

What did happen was, as my independence allowed to be a stay at home, the conflicting desires of my W for me to be both "available for the family" and "provide for the family" was the pressure point. My personal desire to be available was more important than my personal desire to be a bread winner, so my earnings did suffer near the end.

There is no "perfect" job, I will concede. My W though, believed that I could and would simply go out and get a job that earned similar or at least close to what she earned and that would allow for traditional 9-5 / mon - fri hours. When looking for work during the M, I was not looking for that perfect job. I was looking for A job, because the regular jobs are few and far between as most jobs these days require off hours, either evenings, weekends, or graveyard... My schooling and provable experience does not qualify me for the more traditional office or management roles that might garner the regular hours.

Again, a reason... I am sure that if I would have spent the 11 years of our M looking for "that" job... I may have found it...

My financial sheet is typical to the independent business owner / farmer... that of "feast and famine"... and at the end of the budget year, things are in the balanced or black side for the most part, or at least it is on the black side over a period of years, there is financial growth. And in between that time, there's times of plenty, and there's times of frugality... I can deal with that... my W... not so much...

Could I? Would I? Should I?

That's where my conflict is. For me, this isn't about fulfilling a role as bread winner for the family. This isn't about me being submissive in the role of taking charge of the family. I mean yes, it is... but that is where I stand different among many in the crowd.

I could "be" that average person, living an average life, and don't get me wrong, that's not a judgement of those who do. I admire people who go through life and appreciate and are grateful for what they have and make do with that.

I simply do not want to be with someone who wants me to play a specific role. In that way, you could call me a hopeless romantic. I was and continue to want to be with someone who loves me and is my friend. That it is not about me bringing home the bacon or wearing a suit and being neatly trimmed.

In that, I "chose" wrong in my W. I loved her, yes. I was prepared to do what was necessary to help maintain the household and raise the kids, yes. But I felt like a "Ken doll" in that there was a picture or compartment in my W's mind, of the "role" I would play in her life... and I did not match that picture in her mind... and I do not aspire to be what I perceive to be that picture in her mind.

I can provide. I have proven that. My W definitely has a skewed view of what I did provide. And that is OK. Because her life DOES revolve around stable earnings and traditional life roles. That's what she needs. That is something that I do not think I could ever provide for her. And I accept that, now.

So in the end, I had my excuses and reasons and my W had her excuses and reasons. They do not match. Because we are... I don't want to sound fatalistic here, but it appears to be the case... incompatible... I would not ask her to be someone she is not... and I choose not to be someone (I think) she wants me to be...

So I've had to resolve that in my minds, soul, and life... accept it... and move on...

Regarding the "infidelity" and whether I could tolerate or forgive it...

I suppose it really depends on the context.

In all fairness, as harsh as this might sound. There's nothing to forgive. If one stays in the context that we are incompatible.

If I look at the OPs, I could point to a framework where they are affair downs. Emotionally unstable, gay, and the equivalent of a rogue priest... and I do say this with the utmost respect of any human, that we all have our lives to lead... I am certainly tolerant...

On the less critical side, I can not judge these people or my W's desire to connect with them. They certainly have their good qualities which likely far surpass any negative qualities, and/or their negative qualities are not harmful to (at least) the children in any physically significant or direct way.

At my core, I am tolerant to a large degree. But I will protect my core at all cost. And at my core, that intimate trust is destroyed. For me, this is not baseball. There's no three strikes... It takes a lot... a huge lot... to destroy that in me... but once it's gone, I do not give it back. 7 billion people on this earth means there's probably a billion or so that might be appropriate for me to share intimacy with... I'd rather be alone than to be hurt that way. But I would risk it again, with someone else. I roll like that...

So to be fair to my W and the sanctity of M, I have to be honest and say that while I probably could get over it... that in many ways, I already have... I simply do not know that at it's most deep level, I could ever allow it back... to the level it was, or even more so... as I'm confident that most people don't truly open themselves up to another 100%. In most cases, there's some form of wall that prevents that from being the case. And... that's OK...

I had mentioned at one point in my posts, that a mutual friend had suggested that I am not M material. That was hugely offensives. Yet I know, that in the mind of my W, that is how she possibly perceives it. Having to frame that in my own mind though, is to understand THAT truth... that in the context of my W, I am not M material... for her...

But I do know that I am relationship worthy... and relationship "material"... and ultimately, I AM M material... just not with my W...

I did want to address that and forgot to in the previous post.

And so it goes...

Kaffee -

I need to digest this, but you should be so proud of who you've become, compared to who I first read about...

Thanks mindfull...

the person who is showing up right now is the authentic me. The one I had become prior to the M. I had thought most of my stuff was worked out and controlled, but obviously in the unique sitch of M, which I had not been in before, some stuff came back out and I reverted and got stuck.

Again, in re-considering some thoughts about the potential and opportunity to do some 180s, I have to do some more work around that.

I don't so much see it as working on myself to save the M. Rather, there may be opportunity to at least create a dynamic which is more peaceful between ourselves.

I mention this because one of the reasons why I have not worked on that, specifically relating to my W, is because of the amount of spew that I still get from her.

Case in point being an event for D14 which I had mentioned earlier above. With my W's desire to maintain a private life and group of friends away from me, it made perfect sense that I would respect that boundary of hers and not attend the event.

OK, I get that it is my daughter, and if this were a graduation or something similar... a one time event... then I would have chosen differently. But as it is, this is a sporting event and there have been many in the past I have attended and will again be many in the future that I will...

What I could not fathom... which isn't entirely true, because I suppose there is the possibility that I could guess correctly... is that when my W found out WHY I chose not to attend, she was severely pissed at me. I see it as being respectful of her boundaries... Yet somehow... I was NOT respecting her boundaries because I was making an active choice based on her personal life that I was not supposed to know about or snoop into...

loose - loose... double bind... which is always followed by spew...

Anyhow, the answer to this conundrum is simple...

I do what I want and own the choice, responsibilities, and consequences...

I just let D14 know that I would be attending the next event... that simple...

Being the best we can be... living authentic lives... while it is appropriate to make choices in respect to others... in the end, we make choices that serve us in our goals. Mine is to be there at my D14's next event... regardless of circumstances...

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I know it's important to you to feel in control of a situation..."

SO a CONTROLER needs to control and somehow we fit in to letting people CONTROL us.

Which part of this is our responsibility?

I am friends with MINDFUL if you need to contact her about the articles she mentioned.

Yes you have come a long way.

ok, look... I was having a bad year last year, k...

Always open to doing that "alt" network thingy so yeah, set me up... Send me a message...

I still have some things I want to peek and poke into regarding where I want to "go" and some other refinements, for sure.

Life never ends... until it ends...

Hi Kaffe!

I'm reading along here. And something caught my eye. You talk about humor being your defense mechanism of choice. And I will admit it is mine, too.

People say to me you must be okay, you are still laughing. And I think inside, laughing, but still fighting the urge to light someones car on fire. (My favorite "JOKE" because a friend of mine did 18 months in jail for doing just that.... well he did buy her the car.)

So even inside I have that defense mechanism going. I was reading a book about how to emotionally end a relationship. And it talked about defense mechanisms being useful. EXCEPT when they stop us from resolving conflicts.

I openly admit my degree is in GRAPHIC ARTS. So I am slow with all this stuff. But this passage in this book was so darn powerful, hit me hard, and then to finally catch up on your thread and see that same term. Well the Hand of God doesn't shove much harder!

The book is called Leave Him Behind written by Sandra S. Kahn. Not exactly DB material, but I really think this part might be an eye opener for some. And the rest of you can remind me this was covered in Psychology 101 and clearly I wasn't paying attention.

It says: "Defense Mechanism. This term refers to the psychological phenomena that protects us against excessive emotional pain. Defense mechanisms work by distorting reality to make it, in the short term at least, more bearable. But in the long term, these distortions account for our inability to recover from emotionally painful experiences and move on. Simply stated it is impossible to come to terms with an inner conflict and resolve it without focusing directly on the conclict itself. But defense mechanisms often stand between our conflicts and our clear perceptions of them. It is defense mechanisms that keep us from any secrets we have buried in ourselves."

What follows in the book is a whole explaination of how spefically people use defense mechanisms.

Anyway, It really got me thinking. And it is DB to understand that I must change for my R to change!

Aloha,

Wendy

18 months! yikes...

*mental note: do not light her car on fire*

A defence mechanism can also be described as a "chicken exit"...

By that, it is a way to defuse a tense situation by putting ourselves into a place where we are strong... in my case, that might be humour... in others, it might be anger or rage... in yet others, it might be sad or depressed behaviours...

It serves us...

But...

it can also be used negatively...

In the case of humour, we may direct the humour inwardly... or at an inanimate or benign object... or... we can make jokes at the expense of our loved ones who have scorned us... so it's actually an attack...

be wise, grasshopper... use your defence mechanism only for good... lol...

One thing that is nice about humour is it can give us a lovely dose of dopamine as well as endorphines, too...

and here's something... apparently it can release growth hormones as well, which affect metabolism...

so laugh yourself skinny... I guess...

Sounds like an interesting book...

but...

is it funny?

speaking of humour...

I just poked the bear...

well, she poked me first! Twice!

So I think she doesn't like me right now, so figured I'd pursue a bit and sent her a quick message to tell her I understand better how I had failed to be there for her in a way that she wanted and needed...

I AM a bugger...

I am getting better and better at not poking those bears.

Sometimes I just REALLY want to. But I zip it and move along....

Because those bear attacks can be brutal.....

lol... sometimes the bear's growl is worse than the bite...

So just got a money request from W yesterday. As per other sitches, that one was somewhat expected. Actually, not really the first request, but this time the pressure seemed a little more palpable.

Spent the morning looking into D process and costs. I think it's time. Not sure how much more I may continue to have to work on feeling morally obligated to support my W's household in order to protect the kids, with D and child support orders in place, that should help me.

lovely... everything just snafu here...

So, had nice little dialogue with W around child support and D... a bunch of emails back and forth and we came to an agreement on child support... Not as painful as I thought that might be. Within court guidelines and I can afford it. Cut that money nut off at the head...

Had a quick little discussion regarding D14... D14 is still being P/A to me and W agreed that I have done what I can to let D14 know I am available... the rest is up to D14...

Let W know, with child support settled, I'd be moving on with the formality of D on Monday...

I'm listening to crickets...

... .. .. . . . .

Really...??? Who's been feeding my W that DB silliness...?

sure... let the WAS do all the work, DB says... ignore talk of D, it says...

*sheesh*

Gonna have to make plans to poke the bear a few times this weekend...

nah, looks like she just got bored with the conversation...

we proceed to D with irreconcilable indifferences...

whooo... that feels better...

yeah... I poked the bear... a few times...

I can't believe it... and I'm gonna start calling her "X" now...

X says to me that she doesn't think we should tell the kids that we're getting D. OK... it's a formality and nothing otherwise changes... but what I DO know is D9 knows we are separated and not D... so I suspect D9 has hope... even after D I'm sure she will have hope... but I just feel that the kids should know... this isn't something you hide under the carpet, like... oops... I stepped on the kid's favourite toy and broke it... well, ok... one probably shouldn't lie about that, either...

So then she tells me that she thinks the kids should know that this whole thing was her decision... but that she doesn't want to get into that with them, at this time... said that D wasn't such a big deal, whereas the SA was...

errrmmm... to the kids...?

oooo... I so wanted to use this phrase over the last couple days...

"that's a special kinda crazy, I tell ya..."

So I just laid out the "I feel..." and "I felt..." stuff to her... just basic stuff like not feeling like I measured up... that I felt she didn't think I contributed to the family or financially... and I also admitted that I had emotionally left the M six years ago, and apologized for that...

oh... and then I tied into her about lying...

ok, this was email and I sent her one that said I didn't know why I was sending these, since she probably wasn't reading them or was reading between the lines... but that it felt good to let this stuff out... and go...

So yeah, "tying into her" means something different when it's done in an email and easily deleted or otherwise dismissed by the recipient...

But I did let her know how much her asking the kids to "lie" to me by telling them to hide her life from me last year, hurt them... Both D14 and D9 expressed being severely uncomfortable with having that burden...

Anyhow, I actually feel like I have a lighter step... I have no idea if she's read them nor how she'll process them if she does... and it really doesn't matter to me...

Now to write out the child support cheques for the next six months and give them to X when I pick up D9 in a few hours.

OH MY, Rollercoaster!

I keep wondering when do I start calling my H STBX. I won't call him XH until it is all signed. But in his head I've been his X for well more than a year.

Then we can call them: "Someone I Used to Know"........

I'm just sayin'.

Sorry, if I'm a downer today. It has just been one of those days!

yeah, I did fall off the wagon. But I needed to get that out. I think I was just getting myself revved up so that I'll file.

I struck a nerve on the "lying" one. Makes sense. She doesn't see withholding as lying. No biggy.

Honestly, I could have been a little more... DBish with the language... again, that doesn't justify it and not a good example for anyone who IS still standing and DBing... but my M is dead... so it was my clear and closure with X...

no worries Wendy... we all have those days...

cheer up!

I do think I need to retire from the boards here as much as I may have been helpful to others... It just consumes too much of my time and there's a great group here that are doing a fantastic job taking supporting those who need it...

I did finally get a response from... stb X... won't go into it too much, but does sound like a stronger lean to MLC... no "happy", long term M's to reference... life half over...

Not that it matters, really... well no, it doesn't matter... I'm not really "torn" as it were, because I need to remind myself that the M is over and neither of us were happy and I do not want to be with the person that I most prominently remember (the angry, bitter woman). I'm sure she doesn't want to be with the person she felt was (my words not hers, but the general theme of what she thought of me...) lazy and content with... I guess stagnation...? ie. no growth in self or R...

I just want the both of us to be happy. She needs to still "find herself". Not a journey I can go on.

What is the hardest for me is suspecting that in "finding herself" she is looking at other suitors... That's not something that I can live with being M to her. But know I can't "stop" her from...

Anyhow, time to move on... the future holds new adventures...

I hope those new adventures are all you hope for and more!

Aloha,

Wendy

PS Thanks for all the support you have given me.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I do think I need to retire from the boards here as much as I may have been helpful to others...

You'll definitely be missed. I understand, though. I've slowed down fairly substantially. It was cutting in too much to my GAL'ing time and sleep time. Maybe you could take a break or just slow down?

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

What is the hardest for me is suspecting that in "finding herself" she is looking at other suitors... That's not something that I can live with being M to her. But know I can't "stop" her from...

IMO this is an unhealthy way to go about it for her. You know that and I know that.

However, you're right - she has to figure that out for herself, sadly enough.

You know your threshold and you know what you need to do. Hang in there, my friend.

Hey beiber! Nice to have you pop by!

Yeah well, I had a bit of a stutter in my retirement... but yeah, probably more like a semi retirement is what I'm looking for like some of the vets who pop in once a week or so...

You know, when I wrote that about my W looking for OPs, it was a little depressing... the nice thing about DBing is that I find those thoughts and feelings are so much more fleeting...

It almost appears that my W might be stabalizing somewhat... some of that "liminality" that is talked about regarding MLC...

I'm still keeping a safe distance in case there is a secondary fuse... and I'm nudging here and there... (aka poking the bear)... but it is in so many ways good to see...

I'm in no way thinking that this might lead to R... I'll just be happy for my W and the kids as she begins to positively create and develop what ever new life she has chosen for herself...

Keep GALing my friend!

BTW: I've finally joined a gym and am beginning my work on cardio and muscle tone... it's feeling awesome! Maybe one day I'll be biking a half trillion miles an evening like you...

Hey Kaffe! You can semi-retire..... Just stay my friend..... I always enjoy your point of view. And I am one of those people who can't see the forest for the trees. So I need the great people like you to point out the forests for me!

I do find my gym time to be the most valuable thing I do. Lifting weights is good, cardio great, yoga THE BEST!

Aloha,

Wendy

PS The crying was a good thing, acceptance is an interesting stage....

lol Wendy... I will stay your friend...

I am probably going to try to participate in the Yoga classes at the gym, although do you have a preference as to "hot yoga" or "normal" yoga?

btw yes... acceptance is interesting how it creeps up on us and changes our perspective... not greatly and abruptly... just slowly and subtle shifts...

Originally Posted By: Kraft Dinner

I am probably going to try to participate in the Yoga classes at the gym, although do you have a preference as to "hot yoga" or "normal" yoga?

No question KD - I would definitely go for the "hot" yoga if I were you.

yup... that's what I was thinkin'...

barefoot running... it da bomb...

no, i do not mean the type when you get caught in the wrong bedroom...

i love my coach...

i think she is trying to kill me... funny that... she's not on my insurance policy... maybe she just doesn't like me...

hmmmmmm.....

KD - semi-retirement? You're going to get shredded for the summer single life, huh?

I'd tell the kids when your D is final or be honest if they ask before then. The last thing they need is more secrets and uncertainty. I am sure there are tons of books on the better way to have that "talk". I'm sure your right about D9 holding on to some hope.

You're a thoughtful guy. I think they'll grow up knowing how much you love and value them.

grammer/spilling are being turrible tonite. Aplogues. Attributed to lacking of sleeping/ornery sik kidz.

Originally Posted By: AJM80

KD - semi-retirement? You're going to get shredded for the summer single life, huh?

lol... yuppers!

A good friend of mine has an exclusive chip stand on a local beach and... I plan on spending a few nice weekends there showing off my six pack abs...

Yeah, I think you are right and that was kinda the plan to tell the kids once the paperwork is stamped...

...

i think I actually DO have muscles...

i don't know if i like my coach so much any more...

owww...

Ha Ha Kaffe!

I haven't done hot yoga yet. I have exercise induced asthma. I workout hard, but controlled. I hate using an inhaller, it makes me way too hyper.

I do the Birkram Yoga on Tuesday nights, and what they call Power Yoga Thursday and Saturday morning. I go to the same instructor, I really enjoy her style. I tried out a few to get one I understood and could follow along with well.

A couple of people I know are totally into the Hot Yoga. They say it lessens your chance for injury and makes for a better workout.

I had taken a month off of weight lifting, and am back at it this past week, and I certainly have some sore muscles. Mostly my triceps.

Have fun flexing those new muscles!

Actually, I think I might try aikido... maybe there's such a thing as HOT aikido? Or is Aikido just hot...?

I think I just got some clarity regarding MLC confusion...

It is NOT ok to be confused about the contradictory and possible double standards in words, actions and desires of an MLCer because they are angry that they are confused... or maybe they are just confused about being confused... and angry... but confused because they don't think they are angry... but anyhow... so we are NOT allowed to be... confused, that is... i don't think we're allowed to be angry either, though...

otherwise... if we can not mind read... we are open targets for punishment...

Don't get me started on the box of chocolates... suffice it to say, my W will NOT be sending me any more chocolates or ANYTHING from now on...

W says (reminded me) a couple weeks ago that she wants to be open to flexibility regarding the kid's schedule... we'd already adjusted my drop off as being an hour later... no idea why she wanted that, but it was good and OK by me...

I won't get into it, but I made a mistake (ok no, I really was confused, because I'm having trouble keeping up with times and stuff as they are changed often) and said I'd pick up D9 an hour later than "normal" to which my W indicated that I should let her know when I was close as her and D9 would be over at a neighbour's... and then sent another email saying that she was confused and I was supposed to pick up D9 at 6pm... ok... no problemo... and she was also VERY CLEAR that from now on... pick up was 6... drop off was 7...

ok... no flexibility...?

Then W asks me to pick up D9 this coming weekend earlier (right after school)... a gift... or bribe... methinks... as she wanted me to take the dog for the weekend, as well... long story, but I suspect that no one there (W is at a conference that weekend) wanted the obligation of the dog this long weekend... but considering the dog doesn't do well with crowds (might nip) and this weekend will have a bunch of people he doesn't know and activity here, the dog was not a good idea...

So... I poked the bear...

I let her know that I was confused about when it was appropriate and when it was NOT appropriate to flex the schedule... I did not mention that yeah, I know it's appropriate when it suits her and not when it suits me... and for good measure, I reminded her that me giving her gifts made her uncomfortable (so I stopped) and that her giving me gifts made me uncomfortable (although I did not indicate that was because there were usually strings that followed)...

holy smokers...! Got an eye full in her email response...

I THINK I was supposed to be flexible and take the dog...

I am once again VERY clear about the rigidity of the schedule, that our inability to be flexible is most likely all my fault, that I WILL NOT get the luxury of picking D9 up early on friday even though I indicated that while I was confused, I would be happy to get her early... and that I WOULD NOT be keeping D9 for the monday long weekend, but dropping her off on sunday... that "someone" would be there when D9 arrived... and oh yea... no more "gifts" from W... and BTW she says, "can I have the first weekend of June to have the kids...?"

I wonder if she'll ask me about D'ing this week...

Anyhow, like I said above and a word of caution... it appears that the non-MLCer is NOT allowed to be confused...

Taking the day for some introspection...

Trying to tie some stuff together...

Let's assume that my W is a WAS. I say that because I know we can't understand "crazy", so I want to assume that I am not dealing with crazy in order to figure out if it is just me. So that means that I'm working with the assumption that this is not MLC and there are no chronic PDs in play.

I know that I can not understand what might be motivating my W. What her thoughts are...

I am just trying to figure out how to get past the bribing and threats which appear to be the primary methods of her "negotiation" with me.

Right now, I guess I'm working through boundaries. In the past, bribes and threats have worked for her in order to get what she wants from me.

What is an alternative method to offer someone... to encourage them to use... in order to help them get what they want in a positive manner, rather than in these negative forms of negotiation...?

So further, what might be some ways that I can communicate with her to help reduce resistance I feel with her. Is this just my own resistance that is creating this friction between the two of us?

KD,
I think it goes "actions speak louder than words".

For example: My w didn't cash the first two health insurance payments...

... so I stopped sending them (my boundary). No email saying why. Just an action.

She sent an email asking why - I responded in a firm and friendly way - she tried to bait me into an argument - I ignored it. - she finally cashed the check.

Next month - she didn't cash it again... so I didn't send it again. This time when she saw I was serious - she cashed it much more quickly.

We finally had a conversation about it on Sunday. She again asked why and I stated my boundary. Her response was pleasant and she explained her reasoning... I validated and was kind... but I still stood firm.

... and HOPEFULLY through this positive interaction.. it's resolved.

I guess my point is she had to see that baiting and throwing a fit didn't get her any where. It wasn't until she started treating me the same way that I was treating her that I was receptive.

If you want to encourage them to be positive then don't accept the baiting and negativity.

Do your best to not react and show your own negativity and frustrations..

Treat her how you wish she treated you and maybe... just maybe... the tides will turn.

But it will take time.. and alot of strength from you...

... so the question is... Are you up for the challenge?

ok, that sounds fair, Val...

As we all know, our words will not convince them of anything and often appear to simply not register for them. Not sarcasm, but what appears to be fairly factual and something I've witnessed.

So here is dilemma number one:

+ She cannot keep to one topic in any communication

This may sound trite, but what I'm saying here is, the conversation often begins with talk about D9, then something about the dog, and then something about her mom's cancer treatment, and then something about money.

This has been going on from day one.

What I learned here was, keep it short and simple if a response is necessary at all. So by last fall, I was doing very good with that. But the comm was still all over the place.

So from last fall to a couple months ago, I shortened it even more and ONLY responded to what HAD to be responded to.

This did not change anything in her comm. So for the last couple months, I've actually been breaking each point into it's own, simple and concise response.

I thought that worked. And then she began various tangents on one of the conversations.

I can not seem to get it registered in her mind that I ONLY want to speak about the kids (everything else has been taken care of in the SA).

I am stuck for ideas on this.

~~~~~~~

Second of this is the bribes and favours.

In all fairness, I've only been focusing on trying to comm only about the kids so haven't done much regarding this. But I am pretty much done with the one sidedness of this.

Many things come to me by way of being tucked into D9's luggage. From Banana bread, to coffee, to board games, to movies, etc. The last being a box of chocolates. Most of this "stuff" comes with a message (generally conveyed by D9) that this stuff is to be shared "out here". OK, it's pretty obvious the coffee and the box of chocolates and similar "adult" items are for me.

IF my W is NOT crazy MLC... then the best I can guess is these items are meant to bribe and manipulate me.

And I gotta be honest. While my LL is not gifts... a gift MEANS that she's thinking about me and strokes my Words of Affirmation LL.

And, my W has a skewed sense of "flexible" with the kid's schedule. IF she wants a schedule change, it seems to come during some ego stroke or gift. While I am sure that this affects my judgement, I have to say that I AM NOT and UNREASONABLE man. None of the changes generally affect my time with the kids. More often, they are beneficial (I get MORE time with the kids).

But when I (and in the ONE case, accidentally) asked for a change in the schedule (by one hour) it was made very clear to me that I was to stick to the pick up and drop off times as per the SA schedule. I HAVE asked for long weekend privileges (or in-service days) but that appears to have fallen on deaf ears.

So both of these things may have been addressed in my last comm with my W as I indicated I was uncomfortable with the "gifts" and also confused about what "flexible" means.

If I take out the spew, the brunt of her response was that she would no longer be sending gifts and has indicated that we will now follow the schedule to the letter of the SA.

I anticipate relapse on all of the above.

Any other suggestions?

When she talks about other things... what is your response?
Does she ask your opinion?

KD - Why do you feel the need to TELL her that you only want to talk about Kids or SA? Does it hurt? Is it inappropriate? What's the feeling there?

So giving gifts is your w' LL, but she only gives your gifts when she is going to ask you something?

Am I understanding you correctly?

If you believe that to be true - than it would make sense to me if you don't give in to her - the gifts would stop - no?

There will only be a relapse if you allow it. If she says stick the SA agreement, then do it... regardless on if her flexibility sometimes benefits you.

Yes - more spew will come from it... but until you two can truly talk about kid's schedules.. than that is what needs to be done.

At least that's what I think..

There was a tendency for us to have circular conversations which ended up frustrating at least one of us, if not both... and then it was just ugly... or painful...

So now when she brings up other stuff, I ignore it. Well, mostly. I mean when she mentions her mom or her grandad's cancer treatments, I've been supportive. "Good to hear they are doing better." type of responses.

I would have to say that initially (say, last year, spring) that I used to want that connection, but it was only frustrating because she had pulled back so much and I was still pursuing... so yeah, it was painful. Then later, it was just annoying because the end result remained the same.

Now... I just don't want to talk to her. I don't feel like repeating those conversations.

Does she ask my opinion? Sometimes... I think... it appears as such... and then I give my opinion and she makes it very clear that she doesn't want my opinion... let me use the lice example... My W emailed me to let me know that D9 had lice and that she was frustrated and trying to figure out where it was coming from. I mentioned the "two day" rule with lice (that they're dead if they aren't on the host for more than two day) and that I do not have lice...

Honestly, I went into my normal "information" mode of providing her with info on transmission of lice, treatment, and precaution... and truth be known, my W is OCD about lice. She'll strip the entire house, go into a cleaning frenzy, and spend hours picking nits... when CDC and other professionals indicate treat, and then treat again... and then use preventive measures...

I should have just kept my mouth shut. I had thought she was asking my opinion... I got an earful about how she knew everything there was to know about lice and that D9 was well aware of how to prevent it...

oh... ok...

yeah, I know better... she's rarely asking for my opinion... although she was receptive to my suggestions on how to dry out her car after having left the windows open over night and the interior was completely soaked...

More often, it seems she's just venting and wants me to listen... to fix the problem but to not help...

I just don't want to talk to her any more...

Yes, when she gives me "things", I can be quite sure the pattern is, within a day or two I will receive a request for something regarding the kids... maybe some change in the schedule... or money to pay for extra curricular...

And when it's not "gifts", then it's an ego stroke... "The kids really enjoyed their outing with you. They talked about it all night and said they laughed when (insert funny thing here). BTW, can I have them for the long weekend?"

Yes, I think that she was very clear that the gifts would stop. And also, that we are now sticking exclusively to the SA and the current schedule and agreed upon pick up and drop off times...

So the spew came on Monday... with a request for time with the kids (she gets to choose one weekend a month to have the kids)... so OK, I put the request on the schedule...

two days later, (Wednesday) she sends me another email about WHERE (and a reminder of when) to pick up D9 for this weekend... and then a request to make a decision on what to do about long weekends...

That was what I was confused about... and I asked for clarification and mentioned I was confused... and she blew up on me... blaming it all on a "simple box of chocolates"...

Anyhow, I am ruminating over her Monday email as well as her Wednesday email... I have not responded... in all fairness, this is the last long weekend until school is over... I think... so then we are into summer schedule, which is week on, week off, so long weekends won't affect either of us... so it's nothing that needs an answer until August...

You are right... she can try, but there can be no relapse if I do not accept gifts (return them if they are smuggled here)... and no more schedule changes. Sticking with the SA and that's it...

but she's trying... that's the pattern...

Here's a simple question.

Have you called her on it? I mean.. that wouldn't be poking the bear.. that would be taunting a piece of fish in front of it!!!

What would it hurt to be brutally honest with her?

That's a really good question, Val.

I think the most accurate answer, at least recently, is no... I have not called her on it.

She is now using a third party to communicate with me. The person who I picked up D9 from today was asked by W to pass on the "long weekend" question.

I have been fighting for time with the kids since this started. I'm a bit shell shocked on that and now I'm jumping on every chance to be with the kids. And I would be, it makes sense, it is the life I lived until I moved out. Every day, every moment, I was available to the kids... I could be with them... well, of course not during school, but...

33 years of my life I lived spontaneously... for 11 years after that, I tried to fit into "routine", but had my challenges... 11 years with someone who (apparently) craved consistency and routine... now that I have the opportunity to be spontaneous again... I crave consistency... and I'm having spontaneity pushed on me...

As much as I would love to have D9 with me the extra day... I just want to get accustomed to the schedule... even with the SA, she's tossing out requests for her weekend at the last minute... I have no opportunity to plan. Things are different for me now, so planning my time with the kids is important.

I think that's it... that's my answer... that's what I want...

Thanks, Val!

Anytime my friend

I think getting accustomed to the schedule is a good start. It won't be easy and will require sacrifice on your end...

..but it what is needed to be done to move forward.

Keep moving forward KD!

Hey all, just thought I'd post a bit of an update.

The schedule boundaries seem to be working for me. I can schedule a real life around D9's visits and W is not communicating much with me, now. It's a nice burden off my shoulders.

I'm a little sad as far as D14 goes. I know she's 14 and all, but it's just sad to not have her around, much. She does not communicate with me at all, now. Unless I initiate, she does not talk with me. Lately, she has taken to not even coming out from her room or otherwise, when I need to go into the house when I'm getting or dropping off D9.

A couple weeks ago I asked D14 if she wanted to go to a concert. She was pretty excited about it, but then found out how expensive tickets were and wanted to bring a friend but it appears none of her friends can afford to go. Had not heard from her or seen her, since. I finally realized it's an outdoor concert, so offered to take her to the stadium so we can hang out and at least listen to the concert. That was Thursday. So Friday when I pick up D9, D14 comes to greet me at the door.

I so don't want to be a disney dad to her. And worse, I'm on one of her social network sites and will see posts from her about hanging out with W and W's "friends", giving W b-day wishes (yet none for me), and just today... she mentions having a "family day"... erm... that "family day" did not consist of D9 nor me...

I've been DBing D14 but I think I just have to let her go... I mean really, really let her go. It is just so sad for me, but there is nothing I can do. I guess this is pretty much the "You're not my dad" speech... without her actually having to say it...

I do have the luxury of not having to go into the house when I drop D9 off, now. But I do not have that luxury when I pick D9 up. I can hardly wait for that day when D9 just comes out to the car when I pick her up.

Just stupid stuff, really. I didn't miss a beat on this, but when I picked up D9 on Friday, I did the usual doorbell ring and waited for an invitation before entering. W came to the door and said "Hi" and I said "hey" in response. I guess it came out a little curt, because I got "that eye" look. I could immediately see my W's demeanour change from friendly to stand offish. I took it in stride, not missing a beat, and W softened again... but man, I sure don't miss that crap...

Anyhow, things are decent, working out at the gym, going to Aikido classes, other GAL, got my new job the past week and a half....

Life's good...

ahhh... that's better...

I think part of what's been bugging me is that my Benz has been giving me grief and adding up potential repair costs... and I haven't been paid, yet...

Well, just solved a major carfuffle... car has been in "limp home" mode since monday... no hoist, no tools, prospective mechanics will cost me an arm and a leg to track down problem...

anyhow, decided I needed to get a bit greasy, so spent some time under the car... yup, cyl 4 5 and 6 misfire means something probably wrong on driver's side...

ends up being a plugged cat... I unplugged it...

four cats, two on each side, blow the front one and it plugs the back one... geesh... i think it might have been partly plugged from when I got it...

holy smokers she's got balls now! yowzers! and she sounds pretty, too...

i think I'll try to find an after market thrush or maybe run open headers... lol...

back to wasting money on gas! yippee! it's good to be unplugged...

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

That's a really good question, Val.

I think the most accurate answer, at least recently, is no... I have not called her on it.

KD, I know I'm late here, but I'm trying to catch up.

My friend, I have to call you on you^^^ NOT calling her on it.

wth?

You discussed how hard it is to be a mind reader and are giving up on trying to figure HER out,

but evidently you want her to be a mind reader with you. I have a feeling she has no clue you resent the topic changes. She may have some ADD and,

I hope my feminist friends won't shun me, but "peri menopausal" hormones can affect memory in the short term and act, effectively, like ADD symptoms.

(Who knows? Gee now I forget, where was I? I like bikes.. OH yeah...)

You refer to the communication problems and they SEEM to come from her end, using 3rd parties and or changing the arrangements, blowing up, seeming to manipulate, etc.

(BTW, sidenote- I really don't get the big deal about the gifts.

I DO see the problem if your feelings are being pulled and you are confused and that hurts or slows your growth/detachment. I'd get that.

But I would not "feel manipulated" or get angry. Just self protective. So if that is your paradigm, I get it, but if you are reading negatives into it on her end

as if she's consciously trying to do a mean thing by giving you items that show concern or affection, I would not buy that. OF course you know her way better but that's just my take on it.

"So, BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND"...(See how easy that was??)

So after saying that her communication skills sukk, then geez, you haven't called her on just staying on topic? And it bugs you a lot. And That's not even that hot a topic, KD.

Just give a short answer to the tangents she goes on, and then segue back to the topic at hand. Even say it out loud-

"well, glad to hear the news about your mom (or whatever minimum reply you need to give to show basic courtesy concern, esp if it's genuine. But KD, come on, we're talking about less than a minute of your time)

then say "but BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND"... OR

"hey sorry but I'm in a rush, so We need to stay on topic. "

If there is a problem to resolve, frame it in a way that shows you two are at least appearing to work together b/c after all, you two ARE parents of your kids and you do both love them, etc...give her the benefit of the doubt b/c I really believe giving her something to live UP TO will help but probably only over time.
Maybe frame it this way-

"W, Right now the two issues to resolve are A and B and the only options that could work for both of us, as far as I can see, are "C" and "D". DID I miss another option? Do you see one?

If not, Can you let me know which one works best for you by "Tuesday" b/c I have to work out my schedule/work/vacation/time off/school? etc..."

and OR

"SO getting back to the issue I came to discuss"

OR if she brings up something that maybe deserves time - but just NOT THEN,

tell her you would prefer tabling it by saying "W that's important to talk about too, but just for now we'll have to table it so we can make a decision about the first issue..."

AND OR

"Can we get back to that question? Thanks, I really appreciate it."

THEN DO IT YOURSELF...do not wait for her to stay on track or get back on track...do not ask for permission...

although it's polite to appear to be asking,
as if you are posing a question to her but I'm not. You just need to stay on topic by YOU STAYING ON TOPIC...

She is now using a third party to communicate with me. The person who I picked up D9 from today was asked by W to pass on the "long weekend" question.

if this^^ is a one time deal, no biggie. She may have simply wanted to avoid conflict. But I'd WRITE to her that using a 3rd party isn't cool to resolve any issues re: the kids...just not cool and besides,

using a third party violates the SA (I assume)

and IT LACKS CLARITY, which is why direct communication always beats indirect.

I have been fighting for time with the kids since this started. I'm a bit shell shocked on that and now I'm jumping on every chance to be with the kids. And I would be, it makes sense, it is the life I lived until I moved out. Every day, every moment, I was available to the kids... I could be with them... well, of course not during school, but...

33 years of my life I lived spontaneously... for 11 years after that, I tried to fit into "routine", but had my challenges... 11 years with someone who (apparently) craved consistency and routine... now that I have the opportunity to be spontaneous again... I crave consistency... and I'm having spontaneity pushed on me...

I hear you. In a way I relate b/c my h's choices (some of which were unilateral) have created great chaos in our lives, once again.

His Army reserve unit being deployed overseas totally sukks for our family (and me too, b/c I don't like not having my mate around b/c hey, that was the reason I married all those years ago, not to live as a single mom)

Even though I feel pride, I also feel fury at him...(go figure)

BUT MY POINT IS

life itself, and raising kids and them changing as they get older, also all throw things at us we didn't expect.

I mean, WE have to be flexible even if what we want is consistency, and then, it's not what we want OR what life gives us anymore...

so that change thing, isn't all on her.

Make sense?

As much as I would love to have D9 with me the extra day... I just want to get accustomed to the schedule... even with the SA, she's tossing out requests for her weekend at the last minute... I have no opportunity to plan. Things are different for me now, so planning my time with the kids is important.

SAY THIS TO HER^^^^calmly, of course. Sticking to the SA is for the sake of clarity and IF it suits YOU, you can be flexible if/when you feel like it.

But that statement is fair and it's clear, and for now those are your immediate communication goals, correct?

I think that's it... that's my answer... that's what I want...

Thanks, Val!

me likey!

Hey 25. Hope all is well with you...

Thanks for the reminder that we are here to learn and practice and grow. Expressing myself in what I want in a concise way with her (and people) is certainly something that I can get better at.

Am I avoiding that learning? Maybe. I still want nothing to do with her and if I can learn and practice that elsewhere, with someone else... well, I'd be open to that.

In all fairness, I now have what I want and I did not have to talk to her about it. Please don't make me...

Just getting on with my life...

ok 25, I did not want to get into it too much at the time. I do have a moment to read through your post again.

TBH, I really am doing my best (and I'm doing pretty good at this, these day) of not reading into anything regarding my W and our past or current sitch. I'm just getting on with my life and want to do so without her, atm.

I never thought there might be ADD or hormonally induced ADD like symptoms. Yeah, that could be true. I do have to concede there is some medical history with my W which could point to some of the behaviours.

Yes, the gifts were still a bit confusing. I get that she might still be trying to be friends, but I really don't want to be her friend. I HAVE told her that on a number of occasions, in the past. Still, it did irk me that she would send the brandy chocolates with D9 under the premise they were for my alcoholic parents. Either she's completely lost her mind to a fact that she's known for the past 12 years or she just won't be honest. I let that one go. It bothered me at the time, now I no longer care.

It's already been a few weeks now from that post (I think) and I'm in a much better head space, now. I was just frustrated with it. She wanted flexibility and I agreed. So really, that was not working for me as it made things hard for me to schedule and I just want consistency right now. So it was good that I did at least communicate my desire for consistency. That was certainly a 180 for me.

I will try to remember to keep convos on topic. Although for me, that itself is a difficult thing to do...

Staying on topic... and focused...

squirrel...

On the 3rd party comm... that was the last time it has happened... so it's certainly a non-issue, now. I actually don't think it's against the SA, although at one time I was considering making comm through a 3rd party mandatory. That's when I was emotionally messed up...

I'm better... now...

I certainly am focused on consistency this summer. Last summer's schedule was... a non-event... so I'm a little gun shy on that. I can imagine I will eventually be open to flexibility... and possibly increased contact with my W... for now... not so much...

Thanks for the feedback as always, 25...

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Staying on topic... and focused...

squirrel...

KD -

You show a LOT of wisdom here, ESPECIALLY with your flexibility.

So, if you were going to put yourself in your W's shoes...what do you thing she might be looking for from YOU...what do you think HER perspective is? If there was something you could do that would fill her heart....what's your wild guess??

Thank you so much for all you do on the board, esp with Newcomers. I say that personally, and for the DB staff.

As always dbmod, I am humbled by your appreciation of my efforts and contribution here.

Speaks right to my "Words of Affirmation" LL...

Thank you.

Originally Posted By: dbmod

So, if you were going to put yourself in your W's shoes...what do you thing she might be looking for from YOU...what do you think HER perspective is? If there was something you could do that would fill her heart....what's your wild guess??

Wow, dbmod. 24 hours later and I still have nothing.

The following is over analytical and lengthy as I continue to resist considering just being in the situation. I know how to "just be". I believe I was doing exactly that in the M. Life got in the way and I gave up on the M, which is why I am here. I fully concede that as a fact.

12 years ago, I was somewhat infatuated and wanting to start a family. I was getting needs met that were important to me at the time and I proposed to my W.

While I was not originally attracted to my W, I became attached to her and we shared some great times together and raised two, beautiful daughters.

I now find myself at a similar frame of mind as 12 years ago. I am not attracted to my W. She is not someone whom I would meet and think to myself, "I would love to get to know her better." What I do know about her, there are many things that we do not have in common and some that outright frustrate me (I'm simply talking about things like musical interests or food, for example).

So as I ponder the question you pose, I realize that I have to keep out of the equation, my current reality that this is someone I would not want to M. I have to think of this from a perspective of someone whom I have some common interest with, but whom I would otherwise have only a modicum of friendship with.

I acknowledge that I say the above from a very self centric perspective which is opposite of what you asked.

The truth is, I'm a sucker for someone who pays me attention in anything more than a superficial way. My other LL being "Quality Time".

Following my LLs has got me into more trouble than I care to admit. Some of it actually life threatening.

So I have to admit that I'm resisting your question and actually am very stressed considering your question. To the point that I fell asleep contemplating it this evening at 8pm. 4 hours before I normally go to bed. A strong indicator for me of emotional stress manifesting as physical symptoms.

To give your question a quick, once over, I would have to first say, "I have absolutely no idea what my W might be looking to me, for."

I've been going over LLs and personality traits and (known or assumed; by me) behaviours of my W in order to consider this. Still working on it.

I truly believe that at this time, my W wants nothing from me. I can only imagine that I am the other responsible partner for the children. I don't even feel that she sees my responsibility of the children in any romantic terms, rather simply as someone who SHOULD take the children when she needs respite.

Does she appear to want to connect with me? Perhaps. At least there appeared to be aspects of her clinging to a relationship that she herself was not willing to let go.

If I were not so cynical, I could believe that she agreed to M me not just as emotionally, physically, and (possibly more importantly to her) financially supportive, but that she actually loved me for some of my characteristics. My fun side, my (at least some times) sense of humour, her acknowledgement of my emotional steadiness, my intimate attention to her needs (emotionally and physically), my free spirit, my charm, my intelligence and/or problem solving skills...

That was the past.

I do know that if she still cherishes the above, she is seeking that elsewhere, as well she would / should. If this were not merely a M break down, if I died, I would not wish that she not seek to have her needs met by another. And the above certainly are no less than she might find in another, or at least some semblance of those things.

I have no reason to believe she would seek those things from me. I am not saying that I am not worthy. I am simply indicating that I am not uncommon nor irreplaceable. The only reason she might seek that from me would be due to familiarity. That doesn't make it wrong, just the reality of it. A reason to seek from me.

So what might my W be looking for, from me? IDK. If she'd not be seeking the above from me, then what?

Perhaps just to be the father of her children.

To fill her heart? Again, lots to go over. I'm still working on that.

I'll just summarize at this point to say that there may be some things that I could do to fill her heart, if I still know her well enough. Then again, I do not know if I know (ever knew) what might fill her heart vs. what simply serves her, which she translates into love.

Maybe that's not really fair, because to someone who's LL is NOT words of affirmation, they would not "get" why hearing that they are appreciated and valued, makes them feel loved. So I can't rightly discount her reality of what it means to feel loved... or to give love... Nor how things of that nature (our LLs) can be misinterpreted as love when they were not intended that way.

I understand that I need to not consider the future and what it might take to get to "that place" again. Rather, to allow things... life... to develop organically...

So I understand that I need to keep my emotions out of the equation when I consider what might fill her heart. To disregard how she might feel and whether I want her to feel "that way".

No, that too is unfair. I do not need to keep my emotions out of the equation. I need do nothing. Just be.

I still struggle with what I think I want and don't want... versus just letting things happen as they will...

So...

Still thinking about this...

Well, I've thought about this some more and still don't know if I have an answer.

During my pick up of D9 yesterday, I was perfectly in character of the person I know my W was attracted to when we met.

The focus of convo was D9. I have asked for this and I got what I asked for. In the mean time, D9 brought up a health concern of W's which had flared this past week, so W and I talked about that for a bit. It was pleasant, I validated (very well, thank you) and that was that.

I am very sure that W would not have brought up the health concern if D9 had not mentioned it.

All in all, it appears that my W is behaving like someone I knew from years back, maybe someone from school and we knew each other but never really hung out, and we happened to cross paths at a social gathering, shared some brief words, and went on our separate ways. No real, "how are you, what's been going on in your life, stay for some coffee", etc.

In that specific context, all I can say is that my W wants nothing from me. That her perspective was simply that. That I am someone whom she knows but has no real interest or desire to build a relationship with.

What I DO know is there was another context going on at that time at her place. Friends who have been supporting her were at the house in the back yard, they had gathered to prepare for a weekend concert next weekend and were working on needed props for their camp site. Something that she very clearly avoided saying, even though an unfamiliar kid came out of the house and distracted my W for a moment, of whom she did not even acknowledge his presence to me, directly.

In that context, my W was giving a very clear impression that her personal business continues to be none of my business.

That being the case, I do not know if it is possible or even appropriate for me to attempt to fill the love bucket of someone who clearly has no interest in deepening a R with me.

In the mean time, out of the blue D9 mentioned on the ride home that she was happy that W and I had a friendly convo. She asked if we were friends now and I said IDK. I was completely, unemotional during this as though we were talking about whether I was friends with a parent of a friend of hers. She then came around to saying that we were friends and M but did not love each other and I said I wasn't sure about that. And then D9 said she didn't think W loved me, and started to cry. Poor thing. She gave me "the sign" that she wanted to end the talk and so it was. I listened, she had talked, I offered no elaboration and only validated her, she completely led and ended that convo. I was sad that she was sad. And I asked her if she wanted me to make her laugh, now. And she said, yes. So I did.

At this time, I am very sure that my W wants nothing from me other than what is.

And I am very sure that my W would be uncomfortable with any act that she might recognize as filling her love bucket.

I don't think that at this time I need to give this any more thought.

I just wanted to post this quick, a couple contexts here:

+ one is my R with my W
+ one is my W's context of her life

D14 updated her status on a social networking forum saying that she texted her mom and told her to come home, soon. And that her mother texted back and said, "who are you, my mother?"

Certainly light hearted to which D14 posted a follow up saying that she texted her mom back to say "get your butt home soon or you're grounded".

So, in context to me and my W, or more specifically towards the idea of what my W's perception might be and what she might want from me, is that IF my W is MLC, it appears that she's currently back into replay. I don't think that in her current mindset of her life, she has any desire to "settle down" or otherwise be within the "constraints" of what I might represent to her.

In the context of my W's life, it appears that she simply wants to continue living her life doing what ever makes her happy and not be constrained by the daily doldrums of life. Not anything many of us aspire to. Who wants to be held back from having fun and releasing the stresses of life.

The above might just suggest that nothing has changed for my W nor her perspective, over the past two years.

I still move forward with my own life.

I think lastly, for the sake of continuity, as this will likely be my last contact with my W until some time around the 5th or so of July, I figure I will make this last observation.

I notice I did not give a time stamp for D14's update re: her mom coming home. The time was approximately 1am. Not that it matters, I'm just stating something that remains consistent with my W.

If I was single (wait, I am) and if I had friends who were wanting me to join them at some event, would I get engaged in the process? Yes, I probably would. In fact, as I am somewhat experience oriented, I would involve myself significantly in the process of preparing for the event and probably fully engage in the experience during the event.

I'm saying that because I can not judge my W for spear heading the process of getting ready for the 5 day party this coming weekend. Do I feel it is a little childish? Perhaps, although I'm a fan of Halloween, and believe there's no harm in an adult, regardless of their age, doing silly things and not quite "acting their age".

Am I a little jealous? Yeah, probably. I think it would probably be fun and so I do not want to suggest that my W is otherwise acting out and reliving some childhood fantasy. Even though that may be the case. It is possibly just a moment and not a lifestyle (although it appears that way, sometimes).

That's projection for sure. So if I were to put myself in my W's shoes, I would not necessarily think that I was doing anything "wrong", per se.

From a responsible perspective, I know that D9 will be on a trip with W's mom. What I do not know is, what of D14? I have no doubt that D14 will be at home by herself but probably spending a lot of time with friends, maybe even doing sleepovers. And she IS actually capable of taking care of herself.

Again, from my W's perspective, I am sure that she has taken care of the child responsibilities. And the difference would be, I would not choose to go to the event over being with my kids. That's regardless of the current sitch. Just a personal choice. She's allowed her choice, I'm allowed mine.

So last physically observable experience of my W until next contact as I mentioned above...

I was dropping D9 off at a going away party for a friend of her's. We went to drop off stuff she did not want to take with her to the party. My W was gone and D9 did what she needed in the house. As we pulled away, I noticed W pulling up to the house. No big deal.

What was interesting was a minute later, I notice my W's car in my rear view mirror. So I pull over. W wanted to ask if we found a gift for D9 to take (we had already grabbed something from the store so didn't need it). And then, she asks if D9 grabbed a Father's day card she'd been forgetting to give to me (and W said she'd kept forgetting to pack). So while it could have waited, I went back to the house.

On arriving back at the house, my W (whom on catching up to me and talking moments prior was very pleasant) suddenly detached completely and did not even acknowledge my arrival at the house. She unloaded her car and did not even look my way. D9 came back to the car and away we went.

BTW: What an AWESOME f-day card!

So again, I'm not really caught up in any of this at all, but I'm writing this out in reference to the question of what my W might want from me.

As I've been expressing, it certainly appears that nothing has changed in regards to my W wanting anything from me, for the past two years. At best, what has changed is my reacting to her behaviours. And that has at least created a modicum of civility in our R at least, and at best we are able to have moments of pleasant convo and don't bother engaging the other during times we may feel duress.

I am not waiting for her to change her ways with me before I change my ways with her. Is there anything I could do to change my behaviours to change the sitch? Possibly.

From my observations though, I would suspect that being any more pleasant with her would require me to engage her more in convo and contact. Something that it does not appear she wants, from me.

I have not yet felt any sense that I am otherwise welcome on the property nor in the house, without the knowledge and express permission by my W, which appears to only be when picking up or dropping off D9. I suspect that my W would not be receptive of random drop ins for the purpose of visiting with the kids nor with my W.

Any written communication with my W continues for the most part to be responded to with effort, if responded to at all or within any form of timeliness. I do try to ensure that comm from me is limited to things that do not require an immediate response, for that reason.

I do not feel that phone communication would be otherwise necessary nor appropriate as like being on the property, I get a sense that my W would see that as an invasion of her privacy.

So, I'm not sure if I am simply missing something that might otherwise be obvious if I were observing someone else' sitch.

Or was this simply an exercise to see if I was still somehow emotionally attached or if I had finally detached enough to be able to observe the sitch from a rational, third person perspective.

I believe I've dug and analysed and did my best to try to see things from my W's perspective through objective eyes. And in all fairness, I truly believe that my W's eye's just are not directed my way.

The only thing that might be, as I said above, interesting... is that my W would remember the f-day card and use that as a reason to chase me down the street and get me to come back to the house, for. From what I understand, my W's memory is still quite poor (I understand it's a symptom of her health condition and not of medication), yet something triggered her to remember it, without actually having gone into the house, into D9's room and actually seeing that the f-day card was not there.

And... all that is to me, is interesting...

So again, as far as I know, all I can do is move on... and I'm OK with that...

OK, fine.

She wants a connection with me.

So, if I allow that to happen, that doesn't mean that I have to stay M to her, right?

Now I just have to figure out how I can do that within something NEAR to my comfort zone.

meh...

I started rolling the ball...

Let my W know that I have a job...

She responded... offered "support" with the kids if I need it...

ball back in my court...

also congratulated me on the job... wants to know a little more about it...

yeah, ok... it's positive...

I just want everyone to know that I don't want to...

grump...

WTH?!

So I just get an email from a friend. Apparently now there is a rumour running around our lovely little town that my W and I split up because I was selling drugs out of the house...

hunh? I must not have been very good at it... at least according to my bank account or wallet... lol...

And according to this same source of rumour heard, my W has lost a significant amount of weight...

ummmm.... I honestly did not notice... she appears to be wearing the same clothes she's owned for the past 2 years...

I'm a guy, I have no idea if that means anything... can a woman have lost a lot of weight and still wear the same clothing?

OK... goal time, I think:

+ increased contact with W
+ increased openness with W regarding my life (only if asked)
+ continue to decline participating in social gatherings with W
+ continue to stay focused on myself and my life and my kids
+ ...

I swear... if my W keeps offering opinions about how my life will be better now that I have a job and am getting out more and how this is "good for me" and offering to make things "easier" for me...

*sigh*

okay - kD - i just read the last few pages, and skimmed through your older threads.

here's a 2 x 4 for you:

You are CONSUMED BY RESISTANCE!

it emanates in every word you write through all your threads. if you are wondering why you are irritated with your wife's overtures to be friendly - it is because you are still enveloped in hurt and anger deep deep down. that's what i see.

here's a thought: if your wife is indeed in mlc, she is mirroring your own lack of growth.

there is much written on these boards about how the lbs can influence the mlc sitch by working on their own growth. that it is the only way a possible positive influence can come out of the situation.

i simply don't see you assuming the good on any level. you are very analytical - to the point of being emotionless, and that points to me as a lot of repression of your own real feelings.

the reason you cannot find an answer to dbmod's question is because of that. you have set up a wall as you said (put yourself in a vacuum), and with that wall there, there is no way you can begin to tell what she may need.

your own physical/emotional response of falling asleep when trying to find the answer points to a really high level of stress and it makes me wonder if you are already in a crisis in some way.

your posts are still all about what she is doing/saying and you are reacting to everything. you're hurting bad KD, and it's time to admit it to yourself, so that you can start the process of real healing. it can only begin when you fully acknowledge the deep deep hurt that you have felt from before you walked away.

i think part of your defensive stance is also anger at yourself for leaving and moving out, and maybe some regret. start with yourself - forgive yourself first and work through why you did it. then acknowledge your continuing hurt and work through that.. as you do so, you will find that as you forgive yourself there will be a little space created and if you allow it, it will fill with love, and the more you heal the more those spaces will fill with love.

i know it may sound goofy to you - but if you start assuming the good in your wife, your own irritation and frustration will gently fall away and in it's place will come what needs to come. right now is not the time to focus on whether or NOT you want to be with her - right now is the time to focus on just bringing positive feelings into the sitch.

i have found with h that in spite of him leaving, he still mirrors me. when i was cool and withdrawn he did the same. now when i have really done a 180 and started being warm and open he is starting to do the same.

do a 180 here and even if you don't feel like it, ACT AS IF - and just start being warm and open and friendly. don't worry about what it may or may not lead to or what you may or may not want. just do it as an experiment say for 1 month and see where it takes you. you need more compassion in your heart - and you have to nurture it and bring it out into the open (it's there already, just hasn't been used in a long time)

this is where i want to add that all that i have said has been said in a very gentle tone. i am not trying to talk you into loving and wanting your w again. when i read what you wrote about the convo with your d8, i felt so sad. even in the worst of our sitches, i would hope that the kids could still feel the basic love that their parents feel towards each other for just creating their children (which never goes away, but often gets so buried under the hurt and anger). so give your d this gift - allow the warm feelings to surface in some way , they will make a huge difference for all of you.

as for all your descriptions about your wife and what you are assuming that she is feeling /thinking from her actions. Bullshit!! (ok - that wasn't gentle!!) as far as i can tell from your descriptions - she is just being withdrawn and defensive - mirroring what you are doing - and there's no way that you can assume all that stuff!! (ooh how am i doing here, can i get more presumptuous at telling you off? grin)

to me it sounds like you take every tiny thing she says or does as justification to yourself that what you are doing and the decisions you made are right. it's almost as if you are looking for them.

and the last thing i want to say - reading through your earlier threads - i think you got too much support for taking the stand that you did. some were trying to tell you to soften your perspective but many were sort of cheering you on. i think you are very confused about what you really want, just like we all are, because the hurt is so bad and so deep, and that has influenced so much of what you are doing and feeling now.

i think i better stop now:) because after what i wrote you probably won't ever speak to me again, but i hope it's the opposite and it propels you into moving into a better more loving place for yourself.

you've got to find the love in yourself again before you can receive it from others (even your wife), and when you do - it's really beautiful and it changes everything around you for the better

zig

You are absolutely correct in your analysis, zig.

That's the reason for at least attempting this one, last effort to see what might be salvaged.

My emotions (regarding my W) had become so raw, it shows obviously in my last few posts, and this specific thread, on how I am simply closed off emotionally from her and wanting to move on without her.

The rest of my life is fairly decent, rebuilding my self esteem, getting back to work (a job), having fun with friends and building my relationships with my kids...

I have specifically created this vacuum around myself, regarding my W. And I just don't want to touch it right now, as yes... it does still hurt... badly.

It is rare for me to do this. I forgive very easily. I have had many occasions with friends or business associates who have burned me and I found myself forgiving them (myself) within a few months or weeks and retaining the relationship.

This one was big and involves many, many people. I think that's why it is taking me so long to recover. It's not just me and my W (even thought that is really who it is about). It is her family, my family, our mutual friends, and even people within the small community such as the rumour above that I was selling drugs out of the house. The community consists of about 6 to 10 thousand people and we all pretty much know each other in some way. Being fairly public figures (me having lived there most of my life), we are prone to be subjects of this rumour mill.

I know that I could very easily "want" this. The separation, the strictly separate lives, eventually divorce. I know that I'll open up again, fully. At some point in the future.

OTOH, as much as I hurt, I would still be willing to see if we can make our M work. This is no longer said from a needy, desperate perspective. Rather from the open mindedness of someone who (I want to believe) has enough humility to admit that I played my own part in this breakdown.

On the surface, I do not know if I am ready for this change in behaviour for me. Yet, I know any time is a good time for change and while time can help make change easier, it's also OK to nudge ourselves forward, even if we think we aren't ready.

Risk - we never fully live until we are prepared to risk everything to create a better future, when the accomplishment is worth it for us.

I am going to struggle, stumble and fall through this. Beginner's mind - that is OK. Just going through this process will develop or at least exercise a skill which I don't use or use very rarely.

Thanks for your feedback, zig.

You are brave...

Both great posts.

Risk - we never fully live until we are prepared to risk everything to create a better future, when the accomplishment is worth it for us.

shite KD - i spent a seriously sleepless night over what i wrote to you. all i could think was - there i go again, impulsively saying what i really think - which always got me into trouble before - so i am so relieved that you took it the right way.

I have specifically created this vacuum around myself, regarding my W. And I just don't want to touch it right now, as yes... it does still hurt... badly.

that is completely your choice - KD - and you are justified in choosing to do it this way. but might i point out that this is the EXACT stand every WAS takes and stays in? in fact you couldn't have put it more succinctly.

brit and ss wrote some interesting things this morning on brit's thread - as you yourself did earlier. unfortunately, when there's any kind of emotion still present it's not over. not until there's indifference

I know that I'll open up again, fully. At some point in the future.

once again the WAS stand - that's why DB keeps telling us to be patient - because it is clear that deep down the WAS knows that they will want to come back - they just don't want to right now.

Yet, I know any time is a good time for change and while time can help make change easier, it's also OK to nudge ourselves forward, even if we think we aren't ready.

how about whacking ourselves forward?

I am going to struggle, stumble and fall through this.

do you have to? really ? struggle etc? why can't it be a decision like any other one where you just calmly choose, and then do it in a very positive way? why does the process have to be viewed negatively? viewing it in that negative light makes it very difficult to convince ourselves that it's worth doing or even attempting.

work with the shame first - that was my first big one to overcome - the shame i felt in the beginning was overwhleming - it's stupid to take it that way, i know, everyone kept telling me that, but that's just a human conditioned reaction - from your writing about the town you live in and how big this is for you, you could start by identifying what the biggest issues for you are and work through them. when i worked through my shame and let it go and separated it out, then the real stuff could come through.

You are brave...

lol KD - i don't know about that. more like somewhere on the fine line between insanity and recklessness....?

this interaction has not just been about your stuff kd - it triggered off huge stuff for me that i am just starting to process this morning - i hope i can post about it in a bit, but life needs to happen first.

meanwhile - be kind to yourself

zig

You nailed it again, zig!

I was going to post and point out the WAS mentality in my posts. If you've read back enough and / or remember, you will see me struggling to decide whether I was the WAS or the LBS.

I think it comes down to the reality that there really is not a huge difference as we all are both, at some time during this process. These labels are more about a general description of which spouse is here and which spouse is not. The one that is not is generally considered the WAS.

Regarding the struggling part, I really mean that from a beginner's mind. ie. When we learn to ride a bike for the very first time, we are physically capable, we just don't know how so we struggle through it. We hopefully have enough perseverance to fall and then get back up and do it again.

Yes, it will be an emotional struggle too (ie. getting hurt falling off the bike and believing in ourselves enough to get back on and risk being hurt again... or hope that this time we won't fall).

So as a quasi-WAS, notice how I came to the decision that I was choosing out of the M. Or choosing not to get back into it.

Around here, we will suggest to the LBS that it is not our decision to make. Not at this time in our process. Because at this point in time, it is the WAS who is choosing not to be in the M.

In thinking about the above, I realized that what hurts me the most, above all else (IOW, regardless of any OP), was that when I finally came to the realization that I was not the WAS (I did not have a word for it at the time, I simply was existing in the M and knew I did not have the tools necessary to work towards a better M)...

eiy... talk about a run on sentence...

what hurt the most was when I realized that my W was moving on from me and I finally let her know that I realized there was a problem and I wanted to work on fixing it... she was already gone... what ever the last "reason" was the last straw and there was not fixing it... that I never got the sense that she had at any time over the past two years, looked back and second guessed herself.

That's the part that hurts. Whether it's a truth for her, IDK. It feels like a truth, to me.

That's what I know I really have to get over. What a lot of LBS struggle with. That we may never get an apology. That we may never get an opportunity to sit down and face our accuser. That we will never a chance to at least hear their side of the story.

Of course, never is an absolute and very rarely are things black and white.

It is the "already dead" mentality, though. When there is nothing to lose because it's already gone. It's a good place for the LBS to get to.

Not because then we're prepared to do anything.

Rather, because when we approach the belief in never, we are closer to finally letting go. And if never proves false, then at least we can be surprised and make any necessary choices and course corrections, at that time.

So the one real thing that I need to let go of yet, is that lack of closure. I'm pretty close, I believe. I have to create that closure within myself. Not needing it from an external source.

Everything else? Well, it will be what it is. That's all. And I do not have to live under that shadow of my fear of having my feelings hurt, yet again.

Some quick notes about how it appears my W "sees" me. Whether or not I'm projecting some truth of these things... well, first the stuff:

+ it appears my W thinks I am (still) depressed
+ it appears my W thinks I am still in denial regarding our M
+ it appears my W thinks I have no friends (seriously, she's kinda said that directly, to me)
+ it appears my W thinks that I cannot accommodate my D9 during summer visits, while I'm working

I vent here sometimes, so like I said, I might project some of my deep stuff, even if I don't think I am. I certainly know I'm 300% better than I was a year ago.

It really does appear that my W has no idea about "how" I am nor what I am doing. That stands to reason, as I shut that door down completely, last Oct. I've been pretty closed and private with what I am doing, how I am doing, and who I am with. Even my close friends and family or my kids do not know my day to day. There was no way my W could get any clear picture.

Then again, who says she is looking, anyhow. Maybe she's very happy thinking that I'm stuck and depressed.

That doesn't matter... What matters is...

Unless I'm "out there", then NO ONE will know that I'm OK, otherwise enjoying life, and fun to be around and... perhaps just a little bit attractive...

My W being one of those people...

The question? How to expose oneself without pursuing...

Maybe I'm looking at that from the wrong direction...

Does it really matter if my W thinks I'm pursuing her because I'm talking to her or sending her email jokes or even flirting...

From someone who for at least the past 5 years has been anything BUT pursuing... this is one of those times when pursuit IS an appropriate 180...

Even though I really have no intention nor desire to "catch" her...

You know... something clicked for me this evening...

So, hey ladies... what can you all tell me about hair removal products or techniques... and like, those "sensitive" areas... and does hair really grow back thicker if you remove it?

I realized if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this all in...

I've changed carriers, I have a new life ahead of me, and what the heck... might as well enjoy it...

I went with a little more professional look last year, but I've always been a banger / skater... so I'm thinking about trying that look on for the summer. Maybe even get a painted tat to mix things up a bit.

No more "more of the same". Time for something different...

erm... changed careers... I'd change carriers, but I'm locked into a contract... lol...

what the heck are you talking about here KD - i'm to dense to get it from those vague inferences!!
as far as i know - if you shave it, it does - but also depends what type of body hair you have. if it's really heavy then yes, if it''s really light and sparse then no.

waxing is the best for that. the pain should be a nice way to distract yourself from your sitch (big fat grin)

i don't know what a banger/skater is, so i am very confused, because the images i am getting in my mind are NOT what i am supposed to, i think! if you see what i mean:

"those "sensitive" areas" + "always been a banger / skater"

giggle!!

i've actually been laughing for quite a while now - after your razzing me on mac's thread. i went to post on my own and landed up making the most bizarre typos that had me laughing hysterically. guess my hands are tired tonight!!

about your replies to me above - i'm letting them cook - need to read through them again.

you're one strong person kd - but you're hiding in a hole - come out and live , man - it's much more fun - don't keep yourself so closed away from the world - i did that for so long that i was convinced that the world was this really negative place, but when i allowed my heart to open - i was astonished - there was so much love and support from everyone around me that i couldn't get before because i'd closed myself off from it so completely.

have you read pema chodron? that's where i learned to open my heart - it was scary at first, but then it just became easier and easier. read her first book first - it gets right to the heart of it and it's not very long

take care and thanks for giving me a great laugh tonight. i'd forgotten about those ditches!!!

zig

Geeze, have you been sheltered all your life, zig?

Remember, back in the day when we had real music, like the Scorpions... and the Clash? lol... Aside from the hard core southern rock, that was the music and style (well, not so punk) that I was into.

Banger being a head banger (Scorpions, Blue Oyster Cult, Black Sabbath) and skater being skate boarding and trick bikes (The Clash, Ramones, Sex Pistols) and southern rock styles like Ted Nuggent, Uriah Heap, Steppenwolf, Deep Purple.

Yeah, that was me. Fast cars, hard parties, loose wom... err... livin' easy and free. That was me.

When I met my W, I was out of that lifestyle for a while, although still part of me. I think part of what attracted her to me was that raw edginess. When we got M, I took on a more professional attitude, the Steve Jobs type. It worked for me, but I was never the financial success that my outward appearance portrayed. I think it worked well for my customers, and THOUGHT that my W liked the look. When we separated, I moved even further towards that look.

It IS me, but it really doesn't show the edges of me.

Honestly, that style and who I was back in those early days of my life scared me. I realized I was facing a choice of being an alcoholic and getting in too close with the really bad scene / crowd... and stepping out and being more of an upstanding, respectable, professional life.

I talked above in my previous posts in a very cold, analytical way. Well, yes the emotions showed through, but it was otherwise unemotional language. I am who I am, without a doubt, but while my Myers Briggs had me at INTJ, I actually think I'm more a ENTJ. I suspect that my emotional detachment may have been a result of being raised by alcoholics. So in my secret identity, I was a thoughtful, loving kid who did a lot of tinkering and thinking and reading and stuff, in my real me, I was a social butterfly who lived on the edge and had dark thoughts and used bad language... really bad... vulgar language... lol...

When I opened up to my W, I was already relearning to be emotionally safe and wear my heart on my sleeve. She probably was also drawn to this sensitive side of me. And I was probably slipping deep into getting into enjoying the love and connection with someone having not really, deeply felt that in my life. Maybe never really comfortable "in my skin", I likely over compensated. I had little, prior practice in that area. Of course, as a child, that was still when a man needed to be a man.

Any who... now that I have a blue collar job and am probably going to career down that path, I'm thinking about being more of my old, what I believe is more real, self and show it on the outside. I was generally a short sleeve, skin tight T-shirt and worn ratty jeans kind of guy. But I thought I'd edge it up a bit for my public appearances with my W... loose muscle shirts, knee length cargo pants, and canvas sneakers.

When I started rolling the "connection" ball, I told my W that I had a job. I had no idea what else I could talk to her about that would not seem like I was pursuing her. When she responded, saying that it was good that I had a job, that I would feel so much better about myself (esteem) and that I would get out of the house which would really help me (depression remedies), I realized she really has no clue who I am and what I've been doing with myself...

So I let her know some of the stuff that I'd been doing to GAL, going out with friends, to the bars, the gym, etc. And also, the people I met there who she knows (some of her side of the family). I had thought when I met those people, they'd have let her know. I'm starting to think that I am such a touchy subject, that no one dares to bring me up in convo with her.

Again anyhow, that led me to some ideas of what to talk to her about that was not "US" related. The entire convo is light and friendly. Chatty like old friends. I did bring up some sombre stuff about the kids, especially D9, but again kept it very non-emotional between the two of us.

She is totally into the convo. She's not sharing anything about herself, but she is at least getting a glimmer into my life that I am doing fine, thank you very much, and enjoying my life and looking at the future that really has nothing to do with her. Not exclusive, but certainly NOT inclusive.

So I am having fun with this and yes, hair removal... As far as I know I have no Mediterranean ancestry, but that doesn't seem to be what my legs and chest hair says...

I figure this summer I can do the whole shave the body thing and go to the beach and get pictures of me in my hairless, oiled body with a couple beach babes... lol...

Anyone know how I can bruise my neck in the shape of a hicky...?

actually i was - growing up KD - i'm a sweet little parsee girl from bombay, who never left the house alone , even to catch the school bus until i was almost 15!. also i went to a catholic convent boarding school until 6th grade - and no, it wasn't at all what may come to mind.

i didn't come to the states until i was 18 - and i was in quite different crowd in high school - reggae, rock , pot smoking and chilling out. drugs were not cool. no actually, i was so studious and serious (in india when i was growing up, fun was not exactly what we did to move forward - it was study study study) . so the stories h would tell me of the kind of stuff he did growing up sort of freaked me out. (that's not to say i haven't done a few wild things, but from what i hear from others around here - it was a different sort of wild)

i read your post earlier and then went to do a knitting job that is calm and quiet so had time to think and my first response to what you had written got sort of lost in what came up while i was sitting quietly.

some things to think about - and maybe you already have? if you're going back to the raw edginess thing with the look and lifestyle that goes with it, before you jump in , you may want to think about the reasons why you are doing so.

as you pointed out you've been more the professional steve jobs style all these years. and now, when you are talking about possibly having a mini-mlc yourself - i find it really interesting that your thoughts go to possibly mimicking a period in your life which was what?

Fast cars, hard parties, loose wom... err... livin' easy and free. That was me.

so step back here for a bit and take a look at that, and see what you are really after or avoiding...

then after the above, you talk about the emotion thing and staying analytical and sort of cool and then about growing up with your alcoholic parents and how it probably influenced you to be that way.

i don't know if you're seeing what i'm seeing here, kd, but since i've obviously decided to have carte blanche lately with my observations here goes:

i think your mind is well on the slope into mlc in some way. you''ve got some unresolved issues to deal with from growing up - which were repressed during that safe period of the easy and free life. then you got out of that life, met wife and were able to be emotionally available and open in ways that left you feeling safe on the surface , but deeply vulnerable underneath. you sabotaged your situation by not being able to really trust that life was giving you that gift and that you were truly safe in it (sub-consciously), because you had never learned to trust when you were a child because of what you had to live with.

so then wife does what you expect deep down everyone in your world would always do. and then you try to be really brave for a very long time and strong, but then it gets a bit too much, and hey - you can always retreat back to that other safe time in your life with the

Fast cars, hard parties, loose wom... err... livin' easy and free. That was me.

in some way - symbolically?

and if you do that what do you avoid? doing the rest of the work? from where i'm standing the rest of the work for you involves truly learning to trust, and that means resolving some deep-seated heavy [censored] that you have kept inside you since you were very young - and that if you even peeped at it, it would come running at you and drown you before you could even steel yourself

and now to continue my bluntness - so is there any other way to do this?

we talk about our spouses in MLC and why can't they step out of it and get down to the business of living life as they really should - can't they see where they are headed and stop themselves? is the slope so slippery that once you step on it the momentum just propels you forward and you go with it unwittingly? is there ANOTHER way to deal with all that stuff, so that it results in one making the shift in a direct more emotionally functional way?

it's very interesting for me that we are talking about this - because of my own experiences growing up and finally recognizing my lack of trust in the world and how that really influenced how i did and saw things. and because of what i've watched h go through.

you know he did sort of a similar thing - he returned to a "happy period" in his life before he met me and kid and responsibilities took over. he did it literally - to the same place , got a motorbike, like he had back then, and ow is the sister of one of his closest friends during that period - and lives there. hows that for reliving the past.

and to top it off - he was completely and utterly aware of it, admitted it to me, and insisted that even though he sort of knew what was happening he was just going to keep doing it!!

so the awareness is there on some level - but the crossroads one is at, at that moment before taking the plunge - is that one that the person can make a conscious choice about or is this the only way to truly resolve what needs to be resolved?

i don't know if i'm way off base here, but i don't think so. the similarities were a bit glaring and that's what came rushing at me. whether you can turn this around, or if you even want to - that's up to you, and i think you kind of already know that, right?

hopefully if you can, you haven't put razor to skin yet or you are going to feel a bit goofy walking around with a fake hicky and no hair GRIN!!!

(((( ))) while i duck as you throw the pans at me for making you really look at what you are doing!!

zig

ps.

forgot to answer your most important question. i believe if you use some sort of suction cup type of thing and make a really strong suction and leave it there for - hmm let's see , how long DOES it take to give a hicky? 5 mins, 10 mins - you should be good to go.

remember - do what works - so if the 5 mins doesn't work, try 10, or 15

ducking again...

oh, I'm sure there are some... stories you could tell that were wild, even for bombay... lol...

Yes, your food for thought is definitely on target.

There are two thing and two things only that are important in my life. D9 and D14. And for them, I will always remain solid and responsible.

I have no intention to reverting back to my teens and early twenties. I am building a solid foundation for my future and that of my kids and any other who might come along.

What I forgot in my M was that the surface does not define the soul. I allowed the perceptions of others to determine who I became. They did not cause it. I tried to be it. Just like I tried to be the person my parents and grand parents wanted me to be to some degree.

So I actually believe that I'm not looking for a time machine. I know who I am and where I am. I'm simply putting my pieces back together...

no, the hair thing and all that. Just for chits and giggles... I'm not worried about my bald spot and the grey in my side burns and the hair on my ear lobes and the flabby bottom and bi-focals I'll probably need within the next year...

The tattoo that I might get? It's gonna be an airbrushed stencil... lol... No permanent tats for me!

whew!

glad i got it wrong;)

That was quite the diatribe on my part! was just making sure, ya know...

zig

never assume that I know what I'm doing or saying, zig...

I figure if I'm questioning myself all the time, everyone else should be entitled to, as well... lol

hey - you're playing ?

what are the rules?

so when are you going to find out? meaning about what you're doing or saying?

hmm - the convo shifted - i realized that the thing that's coming to the surface for me in the last few days is a new unfamiliar feeling of "lostness". i'm this different person now, and i don't really know what i want to do with my life - who i want to be.maybe that's why i'm coming here to poke and prod you , hoping as i write and you reply something will come out of that that helps me see the way.

maybe that's the new fear to deal with in our ditches - as we let the spouses go, suddenly there's this big empty unfamiliar space -uggh what fills that?

part of me is fighting going into a depression over it.

is that what happened to you in some way?

oh BIG FAT GRIN - left the ditches for you on purpose!!!

cheers
zig

Would it be Saraswati or Ganesha who is smiling down on you, these days?

Yes, I am playing.

The game is called, "Do something different".

The rules
+ Do something different.
+ It can't be the same thing you've done before.

How to play
+ Do something different.
+ Observe the results and compare to past results.
+ There are no pawns in this game.
+ Do something different and observe both the changes in yourself AND the changes in anyone around you who may have been touched or affected in some way directly by this change.
+ The change should be consistent for at least a period of two weeks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am getting results, already. But it CAN take days or even weeks to see results.

Originally Posted By: zig

i realized that the thing that's coming to the surface for me in the last few days is a new unfamiliar feeling of "lostness".

And there she creeps in with that wise eye.

When ever something different is part of our experience, we will feel... many feelings, such as confusion, anxiety, vertigo, cognitive dissonance, even deep fear, and anger...

Yes, lost. If you can't loose yourself, why would you ever need to find yourself? You'd never be lost, you'd always be right where you put yourself.

Don't fear the depression, know it is coming. For once it appears, you will know it for what it is, and you can move through it. Learning and taking in as much knowledge and wisdom that it is offering. And MOVE. MOVE THROUGH IT and out again.

The difference being, you know what it is. It has a face and a name.

Poke away, we are all here on the same journey. To find ourselves again, right where we left ourselves. But with new wisdom gained, because we moved through it.

This is our transition. We never expected it, yet we created it. When in transition, we are lost. And we may have no idea where we will come out.

That... I think... is where the fear stems, from depression...

So... people in MLC or chronic depression, stay in the depression if they can... because as scary and empty as it is, it's familiar and warm and embracing (self soothing occurs in depression) and the outside world is scary...

But... we can't stay in depression forever... eventually we pop out, as it churns... we can either step out... or wait for the next churn to put ourselves back into it's arms...

~~~~~~

Yes, I am playing a game of "Do something different."

Because I'm not afraid of being lost and what I might find on the other side...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

ooooo..... time for a pull of that brandy... lol...

it's whiskey for me, and i think i'll have one in a few minutes, myself. Cheers KD!

you're the wise one here - but then you've been there..

i'll play this game - i like the rules

as for the depression - well - i'll move through it as you say - not much other choice is there, for us?

oh and i don't think it's just one goddess smiling down - the whole universe has my back - i KNOW it, but old habits die hard and so it's not always that i stay completely in that trust place, but it's getting more frequent everyday

At the end of this day, I just wanted to put a reminder here for myself that I am assuming that my W wants a connection with me.

As I mentioned earlier, I otherwise would not expect any comm from my W until about July 5. She is going to her weekend, outdoor concert tomorrow and so any contact that we've had yesterday and today will likely stop.

IF she wants connection with me, I have no idea how that might look, for her. And this is about her, from her perspective, if there is any possibility that I can see through her eyes.

From the comm that I have received back, I get the jist that she wants me to continue to be a good dad to the kids and also that I "get myself together". Again, that's paraphrased, but appears to be the message.

Not sure, the above I do not think is what she wants FROM me, as much as what she wants FOR me or FOR the kids. Nothing really has been said that might allude to what she wants FROM me nor what might fill her heart. Or maybe those things would fill her heart... so those things might actually be for HER, FROM me...

Well, probably have a week to think more about this. I also have no other ideas what to talk to her about. She has said nothing about herself in this comm. Although in more recent comm she has talked about her mom's cancer treatment. She is still very, very closed about herself.

Zen