Hi,
I just found this forum today. An aquaintance recommended divorce remedy to me and while I haven't received it yet I did read the first chapter online and am really looking forward to it.
It seems like the few posts/articles I have read here have to do with people who do not want their marriage to end. In my situation it is I who feel like walking away. My dh is adamant in saying that he does not want a divorce but also seems unwilling, or even scarier yet, UNABLE to make the neccessary changes needed to make things better. I really worry that he just doesn't have it in him to change.
Basically, we have never been a match made in heaven, but I have taken my vows very seriously and always stuck it out. Then last summer, 2 months after my baby was born, my middle son (now 3) had an onset of a devastating disorder that has completely consumed us. There really is no choice but to focus completely on him because if we don't really hit things hard when he is little he may never get better. The good news is that he is getting better and we are seeing those miracles come. I am just so angry and resentful of dh's lack of support and practical involvement during this time and often he has even stood in the way as a hindrance. He should have been the number one person there to support and stand beside my children and I during this time but he stood in the naysayer's camp of my family and "friends" who basically had very little to offer but 'just learn to accept it' and move on type advice even though I told all of them what I needed from them to help and basically begged everyone to help. If I had listened to them my son would not have had a chance-with real hope for the future, and I can't help but know that he could be even further. I am furious at him for not believing in our son and not believing in what we could all do if we banded together. We also have a lot of financial pressure too because I have quit work to spend more time at home and we have incurred huge expenses on therapy, etc.., I forsee that somewhere in the future we will end up bankrupt but quite honestly I can't really worry about that right now. What should I say when my son is a man? Sorry, we could have helped you more but it was too expensive. I know I have to live the rest of my life with what we do or do not do for him now and even then there are no guarantees but lots of reasonable hope. I just wanted (and want) my dh to be right there next to me and us to fight this together. But he isn't. Sometimes when I look at dh I just want to slap him silly.
I have been very open with dh about how I feel and how badly I do NOT want to be married to him right now and why and have even thought about others (but would never follow through with that because I wouldn't want to defile myself and an xmarital affair just doesn't gel with my own value system). I am just so hurt and feel very alone. I think I am just so mad at him that a part of me wants to hurt him as bad as he has hurt me. Yet, I know the last thing my kids need is to be in a broken home. I guess the only thing that may be on the plus side is that I still find my dh very attractive and our sex life is pretty active, although I think I may just be stocking up on endorphins where I can get them vs. any real intimacy I feel toward him.
So should I try to get my dh to do the 'divorce busting' or will this system work for me even though I am the one who is running out of motivation to hang in there or is this relationship just waiting to die its final death? There is a big part of me that thinks if I could just have a month off from him then I would be able to get my head straight and maybe want him back. But he won't leave-won't give me that time. Don't know if that is something I should push-has anyone ever taken a break and then things didn't seem so bad?
Well, thanks if you made it through all of that. I tend to be very wordy and will try to keep future posts more brief.
Meggie;
Get a copy of Divorce Remedy. Think about what you want from your husband and become solution focused. It will make a difference.
Hi Meggie,
I'm sorry to hear that you're going through such a tough time, but I think you've come to the right place. I, too, started reading this board because I didn't want to become a WAW. I read Divorce Busting and found it to be a useful book - I have yet to read The Divorce Remedy, but people here seem to think it's the better book of the two.
Sadly, I became a WAW about a month ago, after 2+ years of serious effort trying to save my marriage. One thing I discovered is that reading DB and this board allowed me to really identify and try a lot of "solution-based" approaches. I can honestly say that I tried my very best to save my marriage... without DB and this board, I don't know if I could say that. And even now, I have hopes that we can reconcile and rebuild our marriage into a healthy relationship.
Anyway, welcome to the board!
Flicker
Meggie
Sorry about your sitch.
I am also very new here in posting.
PLEASE PLEASE WAIT !!!!
Get the book and take time to read it.
People here post many great books to help us and I have found some at the library.
John Gray --- Mars and Venus -- Together forever is excellent in relation skills.
Take time to read lots of different threads, this will also help.
I known it can be hard to be strong and have PMA.
My w is a WAW with MLC, I just wish I had found BB sooner , started to read about relationship skills books early .
Please at least give these things a try.
Hi Islander,
Thanks for the encouragement. I definitely am going to try to apply these principles that are working for so many because I really think I owe that to my children-to try everything. Something I wonder is--how can I get his attention on how serious things are? Is a separation an answer. It seems like a lot of guys here came around to seeing how bad things were only after the w was gone but I would like to avoid taking it that far if I can. Should I pull the plug on the physical relationship-does that give the impression things aren't that bad? (But in the past that has made him incredibly crabby and everything got even worse)
I definitely do need to get a better PMA (had to look that one up).
Thanks again,
Utterly,
Thanks for responding. I definitely do need to become solution focused. Because no matter how many times we talk about the problems all he says is "I just don't get it". Are these books more something he should read and apply (since he says he doesn't want a d) or are they things I can use to make the m work?
Flicker,
Thanks for the input. I also really want to make sure I leave no stone unturned. It sounds like you were very persistent in your efforts and that is something to be very proud of. I guess I want to be able to say the same thing too in my sitch but I also know in the back of my mind that there are some m that just won't work and wonder where mine will fall once all is said and done.
Meggie;
My W is an almost WAW. She let things simmer and boil until she got around to the place where she couldn't stand me any more. Don't let that happen to you and your H.
I would suggest looking closely at your H and coming up with ways to change your own behaviour to generate in H the responses you would like. You should write down your goals and some possible solutions (based on your behaviour) that look like they would generate the desired responses.
I would not suggest using intimacy as a bludgeon, this just leads to resentment and confusion. Think about the things you do or say that make your husband worse, then try doing the exact opposite (180's). Be prepared for some of these things to backfire.
I also struggled with the decision whether to be a WAW. I decided not to. One message I read in DR is you can leave to change, but why wait? Change before you leave. You can always make the decision to leave later. What you really want is to change the circumstances. You can do that now.
No, you shouldn't try to get H to do DB (divorce busting) with you. He has to want to do it for himself and the R. I see the main point of DB is you can make things so much better by changing the way you react /respond. He will change, because you change.
I'm still learning to trust that my changes are for me, for him and for the M. Most of my changes are good for me - and I've seen baby steps of improvement on his part. That's what to look for - improvements.
Sorry to hear about the S's struggles. That sure must put strain on you R. To the breaking point? - That is TBD.
I will catch up with your thread later. (I'll try not to be as brief! - your post isn't too wordy in my opinion.)
-KJ
Meggie...Sorry you find yourself here, but do not walk away yet. Get DR and read through it. One person can change, or be the catalyst for change in an R. There is a part in Dr about "cheeseless tunnels" or doing more of what does not work. Read DR and look at what you can do to affect positive change in your R. Like KJ said, why wait to start on yourself. And like you said if nothing else, you will be able to look at yourself in the mirror every morning no matter what.
I understand your sitch. I have a developmentally disabled child. I know what you are talking about it consuming you. I know how important it is to focus on his needs and future. I also know that if you dedicate your whole life to his needs, you are missing out on too much yourself. A sitch like this can be very harming to an R. It was not the major problem with me and my W, but the stress of raising a disabled child can be overwhelming in itself. You need to balance his needs and your needs. I wish my W and I had recognized this earlier. I speak out of experience. Besides a happy you just makes you more effective in meeting his needs.
Hang in there. Get DR and do not act in haste until you have tried something different.
Hi Meggie
I do not believe separtion is the answer, and should be use only as a last resort. Because even this may not work for your M .
Re-- things are not that bad, I can understand that one as my W said the same thing. To bad I did not listen to her at the time. I now known as hard as it is communication is the answer, You both have to learn how to talk to each other.
Have to get back to being friends. H has to learn how to listen to you without taking it personally, I did not get it and would shut down when W was trying to talk to me.
Men want to avoid conflict at all cost.
Yes sex is very important in R. Talking and romance are primary means for a women to experience love, sex is a way for a man to connect with love and feelings he has.
Why does it have to be so hard for us to understand, we all need to learn the 3 Rs in school, my be they should start to teach imporatins of relationship skills from day one!!!!
Meggie...I posted eralier on your thread. I was reading JimFromBostn's thread where you were looking for anyone that has autistic children.....My son is 7 yrs old and is officially diagnosed with Autism. Although there has been thought of changing that to PDD-NOS at times. I was wondering from your original post if in fact your son was autistic, but I always handle that question carefully.
Thanks Utterly,
I do think I have to try different things then I have been doing. H says he wants to change but just 'doesn't understand' no matter how many times I explain so I definitely am not getting through with my current methods. I do tend to agree with intim. not being used as a weapon too. Guess I just have to impress on him it doesn't mean everything "okay", that there are still serious issues to work on. Thanks,
KJ,
The encouragement to change now is so needed. Thanks. I really think it is true that I need to do some different things regardless of m status. Just to kind of remember who I am. I use to think that was so psychobabbly but really there does come a time to examine who we are and where we are going and I think I am really at that point.
Thanks TEW,
I really don't think the problems with the kids are the main thing going on with us either. It just brings all the problems that were always there (a big one being that I feel like H is another kid I have to take care of instead of a real partner and co-parent)to the surface because now those qualities are needed (and missed) more than ever. Yes, my 3 year old was dx with autism at 2 and was placed on the severe/moderate scale. Now he has worked up close to mild already. His therapist thinks that there may be a chance that he will be Aspergers or better someday but of course no one knows for sure. So I am very hopeful for the future but still very scared and I still grieve for the childhood he should have had before this stole him away. He really was fine one week and within a couple weeks he was completely gone and a part of me feels like he (and in someways I) died when that happened. I don't mean that disrespectfully because of course the death of a child is much, much worse but really it was just like someone snuck in and kind of kidnapped the inside and left us with trying to get him back.
My older son (after years of non and misdx) was dx with Aspergers this summer. Although he lives a fairly normal life and has many gifts(in a regular class, etc..,) his behavior is a real problem and dh often lets me handle him because he hasn't made the effort to learn how or doesn't want to deal with it. On top of it he will sometimes blame me for the problems-"oh, he's just spoiled" etc.., So in some ways I really ended up with these 2 kids that need both their parents to be there 100% and by this time we already had a baby and although we have taken some precautions (no vaccs, etc.., just in case) I feel like it is going to just happen again and I wonder how long I have. Right now baby is fine, but so was my second son at this age. Everyone says this kind of thing just doesn't happen 3 times but then with autism being on the rise 800% or whatever it is now who knows? I just know I can't go through this again but if I have to I would rather do it alone and alone then (supposedly) with someone and alone. That feels so much worse. And then to have dh not be with me on this and spend my time having to run around and help him with every little thing (I mean the man can not even remember his own medical appts) when he should be the one handling his own affairs plus help me with the kids. Well, as you can tell I get pretty mad and end up feeling it would be so much easier if he would just get out of the picture. Yet, a part of me knows that is not the answer so that is why I am here.
I am so glad you wrote to me because it is good to get the perspective of someone else who is there. And I am so glad that your child is progressing so well. That is something I am thankful for -that my children live in a time when there is a lot of help and hope for ASD whereas even 10 years ago things were so much harder for these kids.
Thanks so much for letting me get that off my chest and I'll try to work on the PMA thing in future posts.
Islander,
I would like to avoid separation if possible if for no other reason than it is costly and I really think he should be able to "get it" without me having to take it to that level. It seems like many do kind of wake up and realize how bad it has gotten though once the separation happens so in some ways I wonder if that might almost help OR. I am really looking to avoid that though and am going to be applying what I can from DR first. Thanks for the input.
Hi Meggie,
It sounds like you have your hands full! My H also didn't "get it" when I tried to talk to him about our problems. He told me that he thought "Whatever. She'll get over it." when I would bring up issues.
When I reread your posts I noted that there was no mention of counseling, either individual or couples. Are you interested in pursuing counseling as an option? Particularly with a solution-based therapist? I know you mentioned that finances are tight - however some medical plans cover a number of free individual counseling visits.
I've found individual counseling to be really helpful over the past couple of years as a sounding board and a place to get new ideas for strategies to try, etc. I wasn't able to get my H to go to couples counseling until after I moved out, but I think that it could help with your communication. My H and I have gone to two counseling appts. so far, and it's been a great comfort to me to have another person in the room helping me try to get through my H's thick skull!
Anyway, just a thought... hang in there!
Flicker
Quote:
"(I mean the man can not even remember his own medical appts) when he should be the one
handling his own affairs plus help me with the kids."
Do you trust him to handle his own affairs? It sounds like he doesn't have to: you do it for him. Back off on this - it may be necessary to let him fail once or twice to meet his commitment. But then, they are HIS commitments, not yours. I'm trying to do this with my pre-teen as well.
Also, your idea of his help may not be his idea of help. Look again at his actions with an eye for recognizing when he does help. If you give him more "carrots" for helping, you won't feel like beating him over the head with a stick. Personally, I find this VERY difficult to do, as I feel he should not need my positive reinforcement to do what he should be doing. But, that's MY expectations, not his.
-KJ
Meggie....I certainly understand where you are coming from in your sitch. In a way, my W and I went through a lot of what you and your H are going through emotionally, I believe. That was 5 years ago in our case. Although the sitch never caused the level of strife that you are facing.
Like I said, I can fully understand what you are experiencing, but I do not want to trun your thread into a discussion on the emotional issues of dealing with disabled children. If you want more insight on how we delt with the situation and what we went through I would be happy to discuss that off this BB. You can e-mail me at
ziggyw@attglobal.net or leave your e-mail and I will offer my opinion. I will be very honest with my perspective of how mother's and father's deal with this sitch differently.
I am glad you decided to stay and work on your R. Read DR and apply the principals, you can make difference.
Meggie,
How brave of you to question your thoughts of leaving and post on a board filled with marriage-saving diehards! You're incredible.
I also want you to know that my heart goes out to you about your children. Do not apologize when you talk about the grief you feel over losing the reality of a normal child/childhood. Grief comes in many forms and yours is, without a doubt, justified. Many couples struggle when their children have problems. I'm not surprised you are as well.
You have gotten some wonderful advice and support on this thread. I'm delighted that you will be familarizing yourself with DB principles. That's wonderful
I'm really struck by the fact that your husband keeps telling you that he doesn't understand what you want from him. My guess is that you haven't said it in a way that makes sense to him. I have a suggestion. Read the thread on goal-setting,
Newcomers, set your goals. And read that section in The Divorce Remedy. If you'd like, post your goals here or on the goal-setting thread and we will help you make sure you're clear enough about what you're hoping will change in your marriage. That will help you get started.
One thing is for sure, you're right about the fact that divorce wouldn't necessarily make your life easier. It's hard to feel lonely in a marriage, I agree. So do something to change that. You can do it the DB way.
Michele
Meggie:
May I offer a man's perspective. I would like to think that most all of us truly want to "get it". If we do not, it is not for lack of trying. Perhaps you are not communicating in a way that allows him to "get it". For example my wife has spent a huge amount of time this past two years ,,, nagging,,, complaining,,,, critisizing,,,, (and I am being polite here) All this has done is hurt our relationship even further. I know now her real intent was to help me "get it"... but the fact is there really is better ways (I mean more productive) to communicate with your spouse. TRUST ME! WE DO WANT TO GET IT!
You have raised an interresting question, that I have not thought about. My wife left me one month ago (again). I just assumed that she want us to be history. Does she really just want me to "get it" so we can live a good marriage together? Perhaps... then maybe not. I have always felt that the reason she communicates in the style that she does is that she thinks it will whip me into shape. She thinks this kind of communicating (including leaving me) has worked well for her mother in years past (she worships her mother) so that she will not try it with me.
Your husband needs help understanding what you wish him to know. I would hope and pray you could find a counselor that could help out. But depending on your location, I know from experience that is not always easy.
Hi Flicker,
We did go to some counseling once. It definitely was not the kind that Michele advocates in her book! It was every bad sterotype imaginable and I found the whole thing embarrassing and a terrible waste of time/money. We sat on this lady's flowered couch among the fluffly pillows and ferns as she encouraged us to "share our feelings". So basically through very forced polite smiles and gritted teeth we said the same thing we have been arguing about in our kitchen for the last two years. She would pause from her cup of tea every now and then to say "and how does hearing that make me feel". It was very frustrating. I really felt like saying 'it makes me feel like I married the village idiot and you're not much better'. But instead I payed the hefty bill, put us through it a few more times before I smartened up enough to realize this just wasn't doing what it was suppose to. She would always encourage us before leaving to find 'practical ways to show our love' but quite honestly we were much less love to show after that nonsense then before we walked in.
I see that Michele is giving a seminar in Chicago, and since that is only 3 hours away, maybe we will try to go to that when the date comes out. I think if that is quite effective I might find out who around here is affiliated with her. I agree with you that a good therapist would be the key, and thank you for the encouragement. I'm glad you are having success with yours.
KJ,
I so agree! Lately I have been just letting him miss his appts. and deal with it. Of course his solution is usually to try to have us rearrange the rest of the family's plans to accomodate his mix-up so it doesn't always work.
I agree I need to "catch him being good" and pump him up for every little thing. I really do. It's just that it makes me see him even more as a little kid then as a man. But unfortunately he does need this.
It's nice to know I'm not the only one who is struggling (and surviving) these same issues. Thanks,
I'll try to email you tonight. I am at
tommorrow@myself.com.Thanks,
Michele,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really have appreciated your book (I am through ch. 3 so far)-especially the part about agreeing that life is too short to be unhappy. You see, I know I can stay married until the day one of us dies, I have the willpower to do that because I think willpower is pretty much what has held us together this long. But several things have caused me to question lately why? One of those being my parents who recently celebrated 40 years of marriage and while that is a wonderful accomplishment my Mom seems so unhappy and unfulfilled I wonder if that really is such a great thing to shoot for. On top of that having a sister who is divorced and truly seems better for it and even her x who married his affair and has been married for 10 years to the affair (I know that is very rare). Then I ran into an old friend the other day who I haven't seen for 13 years and she told me how miserable she is with dh -the exact thing she said 13 years ago and I got to thinking how pathetic to spend all that time unhappy! But hey, that is kind of me, so I guess I'm a bit pathetic too.
Well, I really am interested in applying principles to not just make it tolerable to stay but to really get some joy out of this life and marriage and most importantly for our kids to be able to benefit from this too. I see the conference date in Chicago hasn't been decided yet but I think we may try to make it if we can.
I have some general ideas for goals but I have to work very hard on them to make them specific, measurable, and non-critical (if anyone has some ideas let me know). These are the 4 basic areas I will be working on revising:
Getting him to be a more involved and effective co-parent
Getting him to be a more responsible human being
Getting him to be less airheaded (being able to remember
what was just said to him, using common sense, etc..,)
Getting him to be more honest (he isn't unfaithful but is
quite dishonest in other smaller areas).
I know those are terribly stated and very accusatory but they are just general areas I am going to work on revising.
Thanks for the encouragement,
Meggie,
I literally flew through your thread, so if I say something redundant or outright stupid, please just put me right and let it go.
You indicated that you have felt extremely unsupported by your husband. My wife has stated the same. She has also said, "How is it that you have only just now [while in counselling sessions] heard what I have been saying again and again." Well, the reality is that in those sessions the counsellor would not allow her to be anything less than clear AND tested that I had received the message as intended.
Don't stick with something that hasn't worked when trying to communicate your wants, wishes, and needs to your husband. However many different ways you have tried, there still must be at least one more. Please find and try it.
I am truly saddened to hear of your son's challenges. However, it is very clear you will afford him every opportunity to be all that he can be. What a mom! What an advocate!
Jeff, who will be praying for you and your family.
Lost but Hopeful,
Thanks for your perspective. I think you are right that I am not communicating in a way that helps him 'get it'. Can you give me some more insight? What are some ways that your w (anyone else chime in here too) could have communicated to you in a way that would have helped you truly understand the issues that bothered her? I do think the male perspective here could help me come up with some new ideas. What I have been doing is 1) Being very blunt. I know this sounds mean but it is the only thing that seems to be effective and has actually helped some areas For example, because of our schedules we see each othr very little but H had gotten into a habit of coming home and spending until 2am in front of the tv. After many very nice conversations I finally got fed up and told him to start paying attention to me or I would find someone who would. Now I feel kind of mean about that and think it is a nasty thing to say, and don't really mean it, but that tv hasn't been on in weeks and that issue is pretty much resolved. I really don't like having to be like that though because it makes me feel bad about myself to talk like that 2) I guess the other thing that I have been doing that does not work too well is trying to use logic. For example, like trying to explain to him (repeatedly) why it really does make sense to keep the sliding glass door locked-we have 2 small kids that can open the door and get out and get lost/hurt. 3) The other thing that does not work too well is trying to show him how to do something. He is always complaining that the reason he does not do the kids therapy stuff is because he doesn't know how so I will show him and tell him but he can never seem to 'remember' on his own. Also I have tried to have the professionals actually train him/make tapes available, etc.., This is very infuriating and he really does need to be able to do this and is a huge issue for us. Even last week, my son's therapist told him "you need to be doing some of this so it doesn't all fall on her" so he actually had certain things he was suppose to do each day but hasn't all week. Then it is either take the time to nag him to do it or just do it myself.
Okay, I got off track a little complaining (sorry) but please really do give me any male insight into some other things that might be more effective. I need those ideas!
(And yes, since I feel like out of desperation that separation might be the only way to get him to 'wake up' I imagine it is true that there are probably some other wives out there who feel that way too)
JSW,
Thanks for your comments and prayers. I'll take them both! So how did your w state the issues in counseling (w/the therapists help) that made them more clear to you? That would be great to know-perhaps I can try out that method too. Thanks
Meggie,
I really wish that I could answer your question with 100% certainty. However, the best I can offer is that the C did not let my W or me (by the way, we are both certified conflict avoiders) skirt the issues or speak in incomplete sentences.
If you haven't done so, I highly recommend that you and your husband, see someone trained in communication.
Jeff
Meggie;
As a husband who didn't get it. And who displayed alot of the similar things you are describing let me tell you what I found effective for me.
1. Organizational skills. Sounds like your H has abominable organizational skills. I was like that once. If you have good skills in this area why don't you start a family habit of sitting down each evening and working out your days. If you each keep a notebook/planner (just like my children have for school) and you set aside time for the two of you to sit at the kitchen table and both of you "work your planners" then maybe he will start to get it. You can then help him to learn some better skills in this area without making an issue of it.
Remember, keep it lighthearted and fun if at all possible.
2. We also have gone throught the whole therapy (still on-going) rat race. My twin Ds where born prematurely and required immense amounts of help over the last few years. Keep your chin up on this. Trust me it does help your child to be involved in this. It sounds as though maybe your husband has some guilt here about your boy. He may also be experiencing some aversion due to the fact that when he spends time with the boy he is reminded that all the hopes and dreams he had for the child may never come to pass. Again you could try to make this a more group oriented activity. Instead of just asking him to do his share perhaps you need to ease him into participation. Off the top of my head I can think of one or two ways of doing this. You could simply begin doing some of the exercises in the same room as your H. You could make a point of mentioning any positive progress you see with your son.
3. What you are doing now isn't working. Try something else -- anything else. Nagging and constantly reminding your H of his faults isn't going to get you the behaviour you desire. His retreating to the TV is a very big sign of you H trying to shield himself from what he perceives as a contant attack. Do a 180 on this. When he comes home don't immediately unload on him. Try and make him feel like he is welcomed in his own home. I can tell you that he probably dreads coming home right now. This will be a big job for you ( I can sense that you are very frustrated and overwhelmed right now). Do your best to suck it in and try to ease your husband into the daily family routine. Right now you are trying to crowbar him into contributing -- try seduction. I know it sucks that you have to do this but trust me once he finally "Gets it" you will likely be amazed at the changes.
Please remember that I'm only offering suggestions/hints. I don't know your H but you do. Think about the behaviour you want from him. Think about what you've been doing to get it ( and which isn't working ) then try doing something different -- anything. Keep track of what you've tried and how it worked but remember that sometimes you need patience and that you should give each tactic a while to work before going on to the next. Keep doing the things that seem to work and don't do the things that don't work.
Hi Meggie,
I have just now read your post responding to my post. I am very much in touch with what you are saying, and I am only going to offer my perspective. It does not make me right and you wrong, but I feel like I can picture exactly (well almost) how you are dealing with things and I can tell you how it makes me feel.
You actually said a lot, so I am going to quote you and break things down a bit.
'What are some ways that your w (anyone else chime in here too) could have communicated to you in a way that would have helped you truly understand the issues that bothered her? I do think the male perspective here could help me come up with some new ideas. What I have been doing is 1) Being very blunt. I know this sounds mean but it is the only thing that seems to be effective and has actually helped some areas ' The good news is I think it is great (perfect!) for you to be blunt. Men need that. We need you to be crystal clear and to state things in the most direct and simple way. We have trouble if you say things too nice! It registers as vague to us. Sorry, I know this is an agravation, but I tell you the truth. We do not mean to be so slow to understand, but we are. So state your needs very clearly and it is O.K. to repeat what you want on a regular basis. I know, you are going to tell me that you feel that you should not have to constantly epeat your needs, but I am telling you it may be necessary, and even though this is a pain for you, consider the alternative you are now facing and tell me which is better.
BUT......... really it is not necessary or pruductive for you to be mean about it. And if you feel you are or have been mean, then you really are not communicating in a way that will build a relationship. Do not feel to good about resolving the television situation. Perhaps you have, but there is a good chance that your husband will harbor feelings of resentment that will surface later. I speak with great experience. When my wife and I first married, I had been single for 10 years. Often I had left the television on for background noise. And there were two or three programs that I did enjoy watching. My wife made such a big deal about it that I decided to keep peace I would simply not ever turn on the television againg. But my wife would turn it on when she wanted and she would be in charge of the remote. She would watch what she wanted, and I would read or on occasion watch as well. She might turn the program off in the middle is she decided to call it a night or whatever. She would never ask if I wanted to finnish the program or if I had something I would like to see. So, I have said nothing, but I so resent it!
Of course, now she has moved out to perhaps get my attention, but you know she could have had it all a long if she would have sought out a way to have a productive conversation.
Meggie
PART 2
'For example, like trying to explain to him (repeatedly) why it really does make sense to keep the sliding glass door locked-we have 2 small kids that can open the door and get out and get lost/hurt. '
I want to be careful here. I am not trying to discount your concern about your childrens safety, but work with me a little? Maybe it does make sense to you to keep the doors locked. But just maybe it does not make sense to your husband. You can not force you logic on him. He must use his own logic. You would not want him to tell you how you should think! Now is he truly leaving the door unlocked because he does not care if your children get hurt? Or does he just not think it is necessary. I think it is good and important that you state how you feel. It is also important to recognize that he may not agree. And you should allow him the privelegde of not agreeing. Now if he truly is endangering your childrens lives, that is a different story. . I do not know where you live or any other circumstances! But, I am wondering if you are choosing your battles wisely. Which would you prefer. Keeping the door locked to protect your children and at the same time live alone with out a husband. Or would you rather have a husband and home, and keep a close eye on the kids. (I realize I may not understand the potential danger as I live in a very rural area) I have learned that I have made to big of a deal out of things that I would have been better off just leaving alone.
Meggie. Part 3
The other thing that does not work too well is trying to show him how to do something. He is always complaining that the reason he does not do the kids therapy stuff is because he doesn't know how so I will show him and tell him but he can never seem to 'remember' on his own. Also I have tried to have the professionals actually train him/make tapes available, etc.., This is very infuriating and he really does need to be able to do this and is a huge issue for us. Even last week, my son's therapist told him "you need to be doing some of this so it doesn't all fall on her" so he actually had certain things he was suppose to do each day but hasn't all week. Then it is either take the time to nag him to do it or just do it myself.
I have to tell you, I am on your side here all of the way. One exception. Nagging never helps! There are better ways to communicate. Really, all you can do is state how you feel in a clear way. Say if often, but you cannot force someone to think or feel a certian way! Still your husband is not living up to his responsiblities. Ask him why? Why does he feel this is not his job? You deserve help from him and just as important so do the kids.
'Now I feel kind of mean about that and think it is a nasty thing to say, and don't really mean it
If you do not mean it... do not say it! You are causing damage to your relationship that is very hard to repair! Maybe that is your intent. Maybe he deserves it, that is up to you. If your goal is to hurt him and destroy your relationship and if it makes you feel better then go ahead. But if you say these things to 'accomplish something' or to feel better, but you want to save your relationship.... these tactics will not work. They will backfire and do the exact opposite of your goals. I say this to you as a friend. I am not trying to hurt you.
Meggie:
Getting him to be a more involved and effective co-parent
Getting him to be a more responsible human being
Getting him to be less airheaded (being able to remember
what was just said to him, using common sense, etc..,)
Getting him to be more honest (he isn't unfaithful but is
quite dishonest in other smaller areas).
ALL OF YOUR GOALS ARE ABOUT YOU CHANGING HIM!!! YOU JUST CAN'T CHANGE HIM... SOME OF YOUR GOALS HAVE TO BE ABOUT THE TWO OF YOU. YOU MAY HAVE TO CHANGE YOURSELF A LITTLE TOO. THAT WILL BE EASIER. BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER YOU THAN HIM
Utterly,
Thanks for your well-thought out suggestions. I appreciate your input and will see what I can use to incorporate into my sit.
Hi Hopeful,
Thanks for taking all the time to answer my posts in such detail. It is good to hear what you have to say. No, I definitely don't feel good about the one thing that seems to work-being mean or blunt. Actually, I feel very bad about it. In general I feel very bad about myself and who I have become in this marriage and with this man and it is getting harder to believe that this is where I belong or what is right for my kids if this is all that works or I have had to become some witch just to get the least little solution. I use to like the person I was but now feel terrible about myself about 80% of the time so no, I'm not proud of anything-just trying to be open about the depths I have to go to and hope that I can figure out how to make things better. I guess being very direct is in a way my cry of help to my H to let him really know this thing is about dead and let him help turn it around if he cares to. He is the one who is so adamant on not wanting to break up but despite some of the most beautiful apologies ever heard from a man his behavior never changes and the flowery apologies just are not credible anymore. I did just read the 'cheesless' tunnels chapter today so I will try some of those ideas too. I have started to do a lot of the 'change now even before you leave' planning and implementation that someone suggested as well because I do think that is important. One of these involves me getting out of this house and my usual daily routine occasionally and re-joining the land of the living. He makes me feel very guilty about getting away but really, it is at a point that I HAVE to get out some or I am going to go crazy-I mean I just want to join a book club or a writing group or something, not take off to Jamaica for a month (okay yes, that does sound nice too). But when I go out I am worried about how he is doing with the kids and the eye rolls and guilt trips etc.., when I get back.
As far as the door thing. Yes, unfortunately a real safety issue because of our location along with other safety issues (not locking the pool gate-finding my 2 yo right at the water's edge, 1 minute later and he could have been dead. We actually were not able to open the pool this year except at the last minute to reclose it because H chronically can't 'remember' to use pool safety of keeping doors closed, alarms activated but I got lots of criticism all summer about how I was ruining everyone's fun by not letting it be open-I suggested filling in the darn thing because the kids safety isn't worth risking and because we really don't need to be fighting over it but that plan was vetoed, , lots of other fun things too like axes being left in they yard where the kids play and other just ridiculous, unsafe, irresponsible behavior) I'm really not trying to nitpick-there is so much I let go and roll off but some of this, especially safety is really serious stuff. And this is really such a key area where I see him as a kid to watch over instead of a man/partner.
You really took some time to answer my post and I am thankful for your input and will reread it tommorrow with a clearer head and glean all I can from it. I know the goals are lousy which is why I said they need lots of revision which includes how I would change on my part things that may be perpetuating these problems. I agree they are too 'him' focused right now and not 'me' focused enough. I do have a list of 'me change' things going on now too and I'll post that later but when it comes to the 3-4 things I would like to see changed about my marriage those are the general issues but I could even drop the honesty one because the other 3 are most important. I know it is important to not do too much at once.
Right now it is 3 in the morning (which is why I am rambling and incoherent lol)and I have just been sitting up thinking how I really can't do this anymore and that I just have hardly anything left to give my kids let alone find all this energy to put into making this M work with someone with whom I feel so bad with and don't really want to be with. I just feel so isolated and alone and stuck and like I am about 80 years old and while I am reading the book and am here I don't know if I have enough left in me to be a serious db'er.
Meggie:
These are your hobies:
swimming, boating, fitness, reading, writing, biking, camping
How much of this are you doing? I know the weather makes a difference.
You need to do some things just for yourself. This is important.
I know that you are only hearing about 20% of what I am exprssing to you. And it is possible that your husband is saying things to you that you are not hearing. AND we both know your husband is not really hearing you all that well.
You have not said. (or if I have not listened) Do the two of you argue?
By the way, if you seperate from your husband you will be free to do all the things you want and you will have control over your situation and over your kids safety. ... But the question I have is why do you not take more control today. If you were alone, the only way the door would be locked is is you lock it. No one else is going to do it for you. So why don't you just go lock the door when it needs done. you do not have to live on your own to do that. You need to get out of the house and do some things just for yourself. If you were on your own, you would be free to do that. But, you would have your kids to deal with. I you were on your own, would you get a sitter? If so get one now and go do some things for you. Sure, it might cost a few $$$ but if you lived on your own it would cost a few $$$ also.
You need to find some friends to do some things with. I would suggest you spend some time with other married girl friends. Other single women may encourage you to be single as well. You need to hear other "marriage perspectives"
What about counseling. By the way it is not easy to find a good counselor. But it might be worth a try.
You are a really good person, I can tell. As a matter of fact even though you do not feel like it most of the time, you are a great person. You deserve a great life. I would bet that not only do you love your husband, but that he loves you as well. I so much want things to work out for the both of you. And I want it to work out with the both of you together, not seperate.
There is a very good chance he does not realize how serious the situation is.
I can sense by the way you are feeling, it is likely you want to say, "Husband, you make me feel valueless and unhappy. I can not stand this any longer. You make me hate you and who you are". For him, this is like putting gas on the fire! All he can hear is that this is all his fault and/or he will be hurt and resentfull because you hate him! I am going to suggest a better approach that may get better long term results. These words will be hard for you to say, because of how you are feeling inside, but try to focus on the results you are after!.
Try this,"Honey, I truly love you and even though you may realize that our relationship is haveing some problems . . I need you to know that we or at least I am in a real crisis. I need your help. If you want us to stay together, you need to find a way to help me because I am not sure how much longer I can do this. I so very much want to be your wife, but I am really hurting right now. I need your help. I am not blaming you for what is going on, but I do need your help. I want to learn how to feel better"
O.K. I know your husband may be doing things that make him a jerk. I know that you might prefer to knock him in the head with a frying pan instead of saying the words I sugested, but I guarantee you, he does not understand the seriousness of this situation. If you ask for his help and do it clearly, you make him feel like a contributor to the solutions, and not the bad guy who contributes to the problems. Don't worry. If this gets his attention, he will soon learn that he a very big part of the problem. But he needs to discover this on his own. You cannot convince him of this. He needs to feel like he is the one comming to the rescue to "fix this thing" That is what men do, they like to fix things. Think about the results you want. For example, you want him to lock the door. The best thing you can do..... (O.K. I am going out on a limb here.... and this may sound a little extreme) ..... is the next time, say oh honey could you lock the door for me, please ... and if he does. . . throw him down on the bed, make passinate love to him and tell him how much it means to you that he cared enought about your feelings to lock the door. You may never be able to have that door unlocked again? Maybe you are not able to do that.... I understand. So what I am trying to say is that you could gain a lot by praising your husband and saying positive things. I bet that is missing in your marriage right now! Give him something that is missing and perhaps he will give you something that is missing. It is worth a try, what do you have to loose. I know what I am suggesting is going to be hard, but you are in a hard situation.
I tell you all of this, because I have and am currently experiencing all that you talk about. And I know that my wife can very much relate to how you feel. I am a true believer in Micheles books. Keep on reading. My wife and I counseled with Michele in person once and to this day I feel I have a better perspective because of this. I continue to reread The Divorce Remedy.
Am I good at this relationship thing. No not really. But it is not for lack of trying. I know I am a good person. I also know I can be a better person. I know that you are a great person and that you can be even greater. Please, do not give up on your husband. You may have to walk away, but make your decesions slowly and try to do so with a clear head. There are many of your friends that will encouragage you to leave, because they see how unhappy you are and they want you to be happy. Well, if you do not learn some things about this, you could someday be married to someone else and still be unhappy. So, just maybe there is a way to be married to this man and have a good fulfilling life. I sure hope so. I will keep the both of you in my prayers.
You can be a divorce buster! Take care of yourself. I believe in you.
"I don't know if I have enough left in me to be a serious db'er."
I'm no expert either. Besides, it takes time. I'm not the only one that read the book 3 times before trying to put it in my behaviors. You are changing your thinking as you read! Wow!
Good luck - we all need it.
-KJ
Meggie....I replied to your email with a little about my perspective on raising disabled children. I hope there is at least something in the note that will be useful.
Hang in there.
Hi Hopefil,
Yes, I am hearing everything you say, and I don't even mind that you are saying it. While everything does not apply, some of it does and I have always been able to pick out the good stuff among very direct advice. While some of your post made me cry some of it made me laugh too (my dh just became safety captain at his job and they get all kinds of rewards/bonuses for good safety so hmmmmm, let's see- home 'bonuses' for so many days (or hours) of proper safety precautions-yes, I think I could do that LOL)
We have had many of the heart to heart (not in the heat of the moment) type discussions about our relationship such as you suggested. He always admits that he is wrong and needs to change is sorry, etc.., He is wonderful at apologies-it's just following them up with action that is the problem. Actually before getting into this db stuff our arguments had become almost nil due to the fact that I felt exactly like Michelle discussed in her book-why bother fighting he isn't going to change anyway, I'll just stay quiet until I can get away. At least I realize now that really the lack of arguing is the fact that I've given up but I'm sure that dh thought it meant I was okay now so that was very interesting to read that.
I do thank you for your interest and input into my sit. I don't know if I've visited your thread yet but would like to-can you post the link?
Meggie
KJ,
Thanks for your encouragement. I do think the book has some really good advice and I also am going to have to go through it many times. I am trying to work on my goals. Make them things I can make progress on but at the same time not water them down so just to make them sound nicer but lose what I really need to make it effective.
One thing I am starting to realize is that if we are going to make this work we are going to have to be 'married' first. Right now I really feel like a single Mom so I really don't feel like I would be giving up much except the bad stuff if we parted (except of course the impact on others which is a huge consideration for me). Right now my dh works evenings so M-F he is only with the kids a short time in the morning and often he works Sat also so really Sun. is the only day we are together as a family. It made me kind of sad that on Sunday he was gone all day and not one of the kids even bothered to ask where he was-they are pretty much use to it just being me and them. It is really difficult to figure out how we are going to change that schedule as it seems nearly impossible for a number of reasons but I am going to keep thinking on it. I'm also concerned that if we actually spend time together like other m people it will kill the relationship because after about 2 days together I am so ready for him to go to work.
Well, just trying to go down some new tunnels and find that cheese!
-Meggie
Hi Meggie:
I do not have a thread. I have in the past, and like many I turned to this site looking for support. . . and maybe answers. My situation has me depressed and I do not no where to start. So, instead I noticed some other threads like yours and got interested.
I wish nothing but great things for you!
Hopefil,
I'm sorry to hear that you are depressed. Does your situation show any signs of going your way? I will hold out a good thought for you.
-Meggie
Meggie,
I really, really like this thread because you are getting such great, mindful advice from everyone. They are trying to offer you new perspectives and lots of new ideas to try. and you are being so open to thinking about your marriage in new ways. I give you a lot of credit for this.
I have a question to ask you. If somehow a miracle happened and your husband started being more of the person you are hoping for, I assume you would be happier. And if his changes made you happier, how would you treat him differently? Be specific. Talk about the actions you would take if you were happier.
Then, once you figure it out, start acting that way. Act as if you're more satisfied with your life and your marriage and watch what happens. Do it as an experiment and report back, Okay?
And yes, your goals need to be more specific.
Michele