Advice - DivorceBusting.com

Gene_in_AR,

Thank you for your response. It is always nice to hear the male perspective.

H and I have tried dating, but he doesn't get it. Usually at the end of the date, but sometimes throughout the date, he tells me how much he wants me home, how he misses me, he loves me, etc. All are nice things to hear...unless you can't trust what he says and you are looking for actions; not words Therefore, I suggest to you that you go out and have fun w/ W. Enjoy each other, but do NOT talk about your R. I believe that will come with time...once she sees and believes the changes are real and permanent.

I do see changes and I am very proud of him, but he has always changed (briefly) to win me back in the past. I am not sure I can "trust" the changes I see. However, I do feel like we are making some progress...a few months ago, I couldn't stand to hear his voice. Now I can talk to him and sometimes I want to, but I am afraid he will start pressing me to discuss our R. When I tell him I am still hurting and I don't feel right about moving back until we can resolve some of the issues that drove me away - he gets ....um....depressed?

I am not sure what happens, but his whole demeanor changes and he is no longer happy or fun.

I think time will heal us both! Let me know how the dating goes....remember - keep it fun and enjoyable. I sometimes forget that and find myself taking a stab at him.

Phoenixdeux,

I am the WAW, but you're right - I haven't completely given up. I am still hanging in there b/c 1) I want the dream of "happily ever-after", 2) I do still love him; I am just not happy living w/ him 3) H was my best friend in the beginning and 4) I feel like Divorce = failure.

I am definitely human...

I have tried explaining to him that I need resolutions and permanent changes before I can come back. He went to see a C for his money issues, while I was still there. A few sessions later he tells me that he is "cured" and has not gone back. He learned how to control his impulse to spend and that was it. I asked him to continue to work on communication skills; talk about what was going on with us; whatever to help him and ultimately us. I got nothing. He said he had nothing more to talk about and never went back. I moved out 4 months later. H did say that he would go to C w/ me after I moved.

I don't know that I can trust and love him the same b/c this is the 5th time I have left him for the same reasons. As I said before, he has always changed, but it was never permanent. It is because we have this pattern of me leaving and coming back to him - he knows that crying elicits sympathy and sometimes I think he does it to get invoke sympathy and pity from me. H knows I am a sucker for all living things and I can't stand to see needless suffering. I am one of those people who pick up the strays and bring them home, treat them like my own pets, posting posters until they find their owners or a new home.

Michele,

I plan to keep it light and fun. We may go to lunch and a movie (her first suggestion) or dinner, movie and dancing (my suggestion to which she said she did not know I had an agenda). I don't have an agenda other than having fun and not talking about all of this. I want to create fun memories, and give her a longing again to be with me without pressure from me. If she decides that she would rather go to lunch and a movie, that is what we will do. I don't know what to say about your H on the R pressure. Does he respond to let's just have a good time, no R talk so that we can build some fun memories. If it goes well for a few months (or weeks, whatever), then maybe we can start to talk about the future.

Talking with you really helps me get perspective on how I need to handle my sitch.

I wish I could have her be similar to you. She tried to tell me over the years that what I was doing was hurting her. I did not hear. But she did not leave 5 times, not even 1 time until now. I have never been to a counselor before. I am going now. I am motivated to change because I don't like the person who did those things, the soon to be old me. I wish she would give me just one more chance in our M to see if this is really true. That is all I need.

Please read my threads and let me know your thoughts from a female perspective. today is moving day link

and
I have really screwed up.

Gene,

I will read your links and give you feedback shortly. I am still at work...so give me an hour or so.

M

Michelle,

Thanks so much for your analysis. I would like to keep in contact here to see how you are doing with your H because in alot of ways, he is me. Our sitch's are the same in alot of ways, just reversed. I would like to bounce ideas off of you of what is going on with my W, and would love for you to bounce ideas off for your H. Hopefully we can both get to a happier place in our Ms. I don't remember if anyone here asked, but have you had your H read DR. I have not read DB, just DR. Maybe if you got him to read it, you could point out how it will take time and no pressure on his part, but to slowly show you the changes he is making without pressuring you. That would be like showing you love the way you want to see love right now. It takes a long time to build up the trust in his changes. That is what I have to show my W.

On the one point you made about my W feeling ill, and I offered to get something to help her feel better. Whenever she was not feeling well, I would always do what was necessary to get her better. I would run out in the middle of the night in the snow to get her whatever she needed. I do see your point. I will try to just wish her better when something like that happens.

Again, thanks so much for lending me your thoughts. It is one thing to work in a small vacuum of what the books and tapes say, but it is another to hear the perspective from someone in my W's similar sitch.

Gene,

I like your idea of bouncing ideas off each other. You may contact me here anytime. It just may take me a little bit to reply (when work is crazy).

I have not asked H to read DR or DB. I did have him watch tape 1 of the marriage breakthrough with me. The very next day he was so hopeful, he started pushing again and I just had to leave. The reason for this is b/c I have always come back to him b/c of his persistance and I hated hurting him...I don't know that it was ever really what I wanted, but more that I would give in to his pressure (over time).

I do not want to follow the same pattern. I want to end the cycle and unhealthy one-sided relationship we had. If I go back, I want it to be b/c I want to be there and not out of pity for him. I would hope that you would want the W to come back b/c she wants to be there and NOT b/c she felt sorry for you.

I am headed out for the evening - going to stop by the bookstore. Keep your chin up. I think you have a lot of good things going for you and I do see that the door is still open. She may be cold sometimes, but it's only the hurt talking. Keep that in mind.

Question - I was going to send H the web address here, I thought it would be very helpful to him as well (since it's mostly the left behind spouses), but at the same time I don't know if I want him reading my posts. I feel like it will make me vulnerable - Weird? Your thoughts?

M

FYI, DR is basically the new, revised, easier to follow version of DB. It should never have been given a different title (or DB should have been taken out of print when DR was released).

Cool - thanks! I will look for DR tonight. May not get far before I crash, but I will start it.

Michelle,

I think you are right to not have your H reading here right now. First of all, he may get his own handle and start posting things to you that may not be in your best interest at that time. There are people here that could be of help, and you may not be able to trust what some of the wise ones are saying because who knows if it is H or not. You may feel you cannot say what you really want because he may be reading, and sometimes you might need to say something that could really hurt him.

I am reading DR for the 2nd time. It truly is a good book. I am hopeful now when I wasn't before. W had the kids call me so I could sing to them (well daughter anyway, son is 14, and he doesn't want to hear me belt out Rock a bye Baby)

I cannot tell you how happy I was to hear from my kids. W did not come to the phone, and I did not ask for her. Just giving her space.

Having your H read DR might be a good way to have him learn a little more about how Rs should go. It has been an eye opener for me, and it has helped me grow. The more I read the better I feel. The 2nd time through is giving me insight into some things I missed the first time. Then, like I said in a previous post, you can gently point out how you need to go slow and H show you love by being patient and not bring up the R at every turn. May even point out to him that he is close to the last resort technique, and how he could use a few 180s, and how he could lighten up and use humor sometimes instead of being serious all the time about the R, and ... and ...

Gene,

Thanks for your suggestions and insight.

I have to say that I am disappointed with myself. I wanted to buy the DR book last night...yet I stayed here, reading posts. By the time I left the book store was closed.

I went to another grocery retailer that also carry books, with no luck. Therefore, my goal today is to not work late; to stop and buy 2 DR books (one for H, based on your suggestion) and maybe the lawyers book on Healing the Hurt, before heading to the gym. I was going to read the book(s) while doing a little cardio.

I am finding myself questioning things:
Can I truly forgive if I can't forget?

Isn't it ironic that I am the WAW, yet, I am the one here doing things to try to save my M? This should say a lot about how our R worked. It was usually me taking care of things.

Shouldn't he be doing these things? H has not even suggested anything to help us, except couples counseling, which I tried for YEARS to get him to go to.

I just feel like I am the one still "trying". I feel like I get nothing from him - no effort. Yet, H says he loves me, that he wants me back and that we can be happy together. He tells me things are going to be different. I just don't believe his words....maybe b/c I have heard them so many times before?

The only positive is that he has finally started giving me time and space. Unfortunately, I think it came too late. I am finding that I do not miss him. I miss having a nice home vs. the apt I live in now. He might have been a spender, but he also made a very good living. I miss the dogs. I miss doing things with him, but I am not sure it's him or the companionship that I miss.

I know that I was extremely unhappy the last 2-3 years that I lived with him. It was so stressful. I was completely overwhelmed doing the majority of the work around the house, making all the decisions, taking care of myself, him and the dogs, handling our finances, and working long hours on top of it. I once told him that I never felt more alone than I did with him in the same house. When he came home, I might (yes, might) get a hello or some kind of acknowledgement, but usually he went straight to the TV or the computer. We just didn't talk anymore. I did my thing and he did his.

I learned to play darts and I would go to sports bars with him to play in tournaments, etc. just so we would have something to do together. Unfortunately, he would hang out and talk to his buddies, more than with me. I am very outgoing and I make friends easily, so I always had someone to talk to; it just wasn't my H.

It was actually at one of these dart tournaments that I met AM, whom I find attractive. I found myself wanting to spend time with this OM. He was fulfilling the emotional needs I wasn't getting at home. I started asking this OM to come to play wherever we were playing so that I would have someone who paid me the attention I wanted/needed. Of course, I knew this was not right, but I didn't care - I needed the attention. The really sad part is H didn't even notice that AM was flirting and paying attention to me!

After a while, I realized that I was only complicating an already complicated sitch. Plus, I did not want to hurt the OM by getting involved w/ him while I was still uncertain about my M. I realized I needed time alone - to figure out what I wanted. I am happy to say that we (the OM & I) have remained friends.

So, here I am separated and alone. I don't want to go back to an unhappy sitch b/c I am lonely. I don't want to go back b/c I feel sorry for H and his hurting. If (and that's a BIG if) I go back, I want it to be b/c I believe we will have a loving and happy marriage. Now, how do I get that?

What is so hard is that I know we love each other, but my love for H has changed. I feel more of a concern and caring for him than the love I once felt. I have no desire to be intimate w/ H. I don't want him touching me, which means I am still hurting. But after the hurt heals, where will that leave us? I am not sure I can heal in H's time frame. I feel like he wants it to be overnight.

M

Michelle,

I really hope my sitch is not as deep as yours. It sounds like it is going to be very difficult for you and your H to reconcile. I suggest you read DR before you give a copy to your H. Have you thought of calling and setting up some coaching sessions?

As I see it right now, you seem to be floundering. You want to trust your H, and you want to love him, but you don't trust him, and right now don't want a whole lot to do with him. You really need to read DR. You need to set goals for yourself and what you want, kind of like my other thread, but I may have gone overboard a little. You need to get a plan of action to attain those goals. You will probably need help refining those goals and the plan of action to reach them. As Michele says, take action. What has been happening for a long time is not working, so stop doing that. Do something else, almost anything else (as long as it is legal in your state

)

Read DR first, start working on yourself, and then get a copy to your H. You will feel better about yourself. If your H then reads it and takes it to heart, then maybe you two can start meshing your goals together. Get that copy for yourself first and read it. Keep posting here as I like this bouncing of ideas that you and I are doing.

How to forgive? I really don't know how to answer that one. I have never had something significant to forgive before, and even if I did, each person probably has to do it in their own way. You need to find a way to get there if you and your H have a chance. Again, as DR says, you have to be the one to change. You change, and start pressing the positive buttons in your H, and he will begin to change. I really would recommend talking to a coach to work on your goals and a plan of action. There is another website out there called saveyourmarriage.com. They have seminars around the country that last Fri-Sun. One of my goals is to have W and I go. It is in a few months for us, so I don't need to pressure her at this time.

Gene,

You could say that I am floundering, and I would agree. Here is what happens....

I find myself wanting to work things out w/ H. We get together for a date or something related to the house. Things usually begin well and we have a great time together, but then it happens. We get into an argument.

I would like to say it's the insecurity at the fact that we are separated, but he says I foster that insecurity by omission. For example, when he calls and I am on the other line instead of telling him "I am talking to _____ on the other line". I just say "I am on the other line". If he asks, I always tell him whom I am talking to. You would think ah-ha, there is the solution, just say who I am talking to up front. However, it is not that easy.
I purposely avoid saying who I am talking to b/c I have two very dear girlfriends that he dislikes. Therefore, when I do admit that I am talking to one of them - he will have some sarcastic comment to make - like "oh, what bad thing did she say about me today?" Therefore, I have learned NOT to say who it is - to avoid the sarcasm and attitude I get when I do tell him. The bad part is that my two girlfriends do not dislike him; they just want me to be happy. He dislikes them b/c when we were talking about separating - they encouraged it.

It's all stupid little things like that. When I tell him the reason I don't openly talk to him is b/c I get attitude in return. he says he doesn't do that, but I have repeated some of his comments to him. After that he just tells me it's b/c of some other thing I or my friends have done that he gets that way. It is so bad that my cell phone can't ring w/o some comment from him. I have gotten to the point where I'd prefer not to have my cell on or even w/ me when we are together.

However, I have a lot of family and friends who have become my support group. Leaving my phone off ultimately makes me feel like he is controlling me and I am a prisoner in my own home.

For you to fully understand, I have to give you a bit more history. In the beginning, when we were both happy, in-love, we moved in together. I had a friend that he disliked for a valid reason - she cheated on all her boyfriends. He would tell me I wasn't allowed to go to lunch, the mall, or anywhere else w/ her; she wasn't allowed over unless he was home, etc. It just got to be where I wasn't allowed to do anything (even grocery shopping) w/o him. I started truly feeling like a prisoner. The consequences of his threats was that we would break up. he would leave me if I went anywhere w/o him.

I finally broke this pattern after 6 - 9 months when I called his bluff. One night my cheater friend called, said she thought she was pregnant, didn't know who the father was and wanted to talk. Mind you we were all freshman in college and she was my best friend all through high school. I said sure - I would meet her. I called H; told him the situation. He told me that if I went to meet her not to come home after. That I wouldn't have a home to come home to. He said he would change the locks, puts my things outside, and take all the money out of our accounts (Which was our tuition money). After crying and fighting w/ H about this; I finally said to myself - I don't want to live like this. My friends are important to me and I am going to be a friend.

I called my mom, asked if I could move home, figured out that I could save up enough for tuition before the payment was due, etc. I called H back and told him to start packing my stuff. I was meeting my friend. He then said things like "I can't believe you are willing to throw our R away over this". He often tries to manipulate me to get his way. Usually, I let him - until I have had enough.

The truth of the matter was, I wasn't happy w/ the arrangement as it was. H could out and do whatever he wanted w/ any of his friends, but I wasn't allowed out at all?

This has been pretty typical of our entire R. Looking back, I feel like I have had to fight for everything that I wanted/needed.

M

I just feel like I am not strong enough, nor do I have the energy to constantly be asserting myself in the R. I want someone who wants to do for me as I do for them.

I told you about the money issues...well, I sort of cured that by making him give me his credit cards after much fighting and bickering back and forth. This was a few years ago. After having his credit cards for about a month, I told him that I did not want to be his mother. That he needed to be responsible and I said he either cut them up or I was out of the R. I explained that I was tired of being the one to sacrifice so we could save to buy a nice house. Either he was with me, as he claimed to be, or he wasn't. His choice.

After that we were not purchasing anything on credit. One night we were out at the mall. I had just gone to the eye doctor a few days prior to learn that I needed glasses for distance (driving, movies, etc.). We went into a entertainment place where he found some box movie set he just had to have. I said no, that we could use the money for other things. He kept on and on about this freaking box set (picture a little kid wanting something - that's what it was like). I finally gave in. $160 later, he had his box set. Let's just say that I waited another 2 months before getting glasses. When we got home, I said you know, I need glasses. Don't you think that is more important than movies? he said yes. Let's go get you glasses. I said we didn't have enough money to do both. his resposne - let's charge the glasses.

My C said I should have made him return the box set and used the money for glasses. I didn't. I wanted to be a nice W and let him have the things he wanted. Only, I was doing so at my expense. I was enabling the behavior. I agree, but at the same time I shouldn't have to take on a parental role w/ my H. Nor, did I want that role. I already felt like the secretary, the maid, the chef and occasionally when I wasn't totally exhausted and emotionally drained the lover.

I hope that explains a little more of why I am floundering. I am so tired of fighting literally and figuratively for everything. I don't think a R should be this hard.

M

Michelle

After so many split ups and back together agains it's no wonder you're hesitant to jump back in. I wouldn't either. You MUST have a soft spot if you keep taking him back and all it takes is promises and begging.

I just had several comments.

1) I don't know if it sounds much like your husband has changed. It sounds more like the same pattern you described in the past. In order to effect real change he needs to "get it". Maybe the only way to acheive that is to be less accessible to him, especially regarding dates, etc, unless you really see signs of change.

2) It sounds like you're really still quite angry with him. Do you think you can let go of some of the past hurts if he does manage to change?

3) It sounds like the person working on improving how they are and how they feel is you. I hope for his sake that he can do the same so he'll become more attractive to you again. Personally, I think that the changes you are asking him to make aren't ones that he should be making for you, but ones that he should be making for himself. I know when I wrote down my list of things I wanted to change about myself, I was really stoked. It made me happy because even if my M didn't work out I would feel better about me. I'm not sure your husband has made the connection that he needs to change for his own good, not just yours. In that case, I doubt any changes could be permanent.

Don't have any specific advice except to take care of your own happiness and not worry so much about his. Even if he sounds miserable. You aren't responsible for his happiness and certainly shouldn't be his sole source. He's got to find things outside the marriage and within himself to make him happy. You continue to think about your happiness. I hope for your M sake that he gets it together.

Wes

Michelle,

I was not trying to say you are doing anything wrong. You are hurt. You are staying hurt because nothing new is happening. Take some action that you have not done before. Any action. Well, let me slow that down first. Read DR, make some goals of the direction you think you would like to take, and a plan of action to get there, then take some action.

Please keep posting here as you go along. I would love to have my W read DR, but I would not dare give it to her now. I am hoping that I and others here giving our ideas to get our WAS back will get your feedback as to if it could work. Your advice has been invaluable to me, thank you. I, and others, would like to help you get through to your H to help you no longer be a WAW.

Thanks, Wes.

1) That's my point. It's the same ol' thing...he does good while I am gone and when I come back, but it has never lasted. I do think he has made small changes - like keeping the house clean - but I question the permanance of this change. What happens when I move back in? Will it slowly go back to me doing everything as it has the past 5 times? I will work on being less accessible. Good point.

2) I don't think it's anger. I think it's resentment. I feel like he took me for granted for many, many years. I am working w/ a C to try a few exercises to "let it go", such as writing out in detail past hurts and then, after pouring my heart onto paper, burning them while letting them go. We are working on these in baby steps = smaller hurts first.

3) I, too, am working on improving myself. My attitude is this - whether we get back together or not, I need to learn to let go and move on so that I do not carry these things into my future relationships. I want to feel good about myself. I have been reading (as time allows) about forgiving. I think it is helping ease the pain.

I am going to buy DR tonight and read it while working out. Then I am going to movie - just to relax and take my mind off things for a little bit.

M

Gene,

I didn't think you were telling me I did anything wrong. What made you feel that way? I appreciate your honesty, your comments, your suggestions etc. I hope that you did not think I was getting defensive - I wasn't. I think I was just venting and letting it out???

That is my plan - to make changes. I think sometimes, a little guidance in what actions should be taken is helpful. Which is why I like your suggestion about a coach. I have actually began to do some things in order to accomplish a few of my personal goals, for myself.

I intend to keep chatting w/ anyone who wants to talk to me.

Gotta go for the night. I promised myself I'd stop at the bookstore to get DR and then off to the gym. I get enough disappoinments from life - I don't intend to add to them.

Have a good night,
M

Michelle,

I'm sorry. I must have misread what you were saying, or how you said it. I am glad you are working on you. That is really the only thing that you can do. To get changes out of your H, you have to make changes to you and how you approach things. My only thing I was thinking is that I am not sure you know exactly what you want right now. It is hard to make goals and a plan of action when you don't know. If you want your H back, truly want him back, then you need to heal yourself, and then forgive him to get a true chance, IMO. Stubborndyke is right in that it has to be on your time. You have to make that decision and then follow through. I hope you were able to get the book. Michele's writing is easy on the eyes. She has an ease with her points that makes you want to keep going.

I have one to run by you. This exact wording is on my other thread. "Something kind of interesting happened today. I went over to pick up the kids to have dinner with them. W had a class. I thought she would already be gone by the time I called to get them. She answered. We talked about stepson's grades, lower than our expectations. Anyway, she mentioned a guy at school that is her friend. He is in an R with a woman who will jump on him and scratch him and go out and party with him at home and not let him go out. I was bad, but I was not as bad as that, at least I hope. They bought a new house together. W asked him why he would do that when he said something about only staying with his R because of the last house. He told my W that he stays because of his daughter. There was an awkward silence after she said that. Kind of stunned me, but I said nothing. I did not say so should we, or he was crazy. After a couple of seconds, she changed the subject. She was leaving as I arrived. She smiled and waved. " What do you think?

Gene,

I know I go back and forth. I think it's mostly b/c I want to work things out w/ H b/c I still love him, but I am not seeing any results. So it's frustrating. I feel like he "says" he wants us to be together, but he's not doing anything to facilitate that.

I said before that I do see small changes, but they are changes that I have seen before, like helping around the house or being very loving. What has happened in the past is that after I am back 6 months to a year; it starts fading out again. Within a 1 1/2 years - it's back to the same old thing where he takes me for granted. I think I am afraid to take a chance that it will happen AGAIN. I can't keep doing this - it's way too hard on me emotionally.

I also feel like I am the only one working on our R - and I am the one who walked away!

About you question - I think she brought it up to get your reaction. Sort of testing you to see if you would agree with the other man and tell her that you two should work it out for the kids sake, etc. By not responding you did the right thing. I think she used that story to determine if you thought you should stay together for the kids. Now she doesn't know. She will have to discuss this specifically with you to get feedback. Plus, you didn't get angry - you kept the emotions in check. Very nice!

M

P.S. After driving to several bookstores looking for DR; I ended up finding 1 copy of DB instead. I bought that one and a few other self improvement books that caught my attention. Since I spent so much time trying to locate DR; I didn't get as much of a workout as I had hoped, but I did 30 minutes of cardio and read the beginning. I will start there and just order DR. Maybe give H DB when I finish it.

Michelle,

I do see where you can be very frustrated that the changes are small, and the same as before, and they usually go away after some time back in the M. He is going to have to make the changes bigger and permanent. He will slip sometimes, but as long as he gets back up on the horse, progress is being made. But it does not sound like he is making the big changes yet. He may not seem to know the extent that he needs to. After your read DR, give him the copy and see what he does from there. If he does not start making the real changes, then there may not be much hope, unless you can just deal with what has gone on for years, and that is not fair to you.

Thanks for the reply on the conversation with my W from yesterday. I almost got the impression that it just came out before she thought about it. If she was testing me, I hope I passed.

Gene,

Thanks. You are saying exactly what I am thinking....changes have to be bigger and permanent for me to stay in the M. If not, I can't stay. Life is too short for me to be this unhappy and I am not willing to take anti-depressants or other meds to make it where I don't care.

Trust me, I have already tried that option. The year before I moved out, I was going to C alone. She suggested a mild anti-depressant to take the edge off; mainly b/c I cried everyday and felt this overwhelming sadness. I truly believe the sadness was me grieving for the loss of the R.

I did take the anti-depressants and I didn't cry anymore, but I didn't care anymore either. I was just content. I think H liked me this way - I wasn't nagging or crying or complaining or anything

. After about a month, I took myself off them. I said I didn't want to go through life "content" and not happy.

Thanks very much for your input. It validates how I am feeling.

Today is a good day for me. I feel good about myself and what I am doing. I worked out last night, I read some of DB and I relaxed a little before bed.

I re-read through your goals and started thinking about additional goals I want to set for myself. I already have some goals for myself, like get in shape (ie workout), financial, etc. But I really need to sit down and come up with some relationship goals. I need to clearly define the changes I am looking for and what actions I want to see from H. Not to mention changes in attitude and behaviors I want to make myself.

Here's a question - should I share these goals w/ H? Should I tell him the changes I want to see from him? Or let him read the DR book and see what changes he makes himself? The reason that I am asking is b/c I believe he will make the changes I ask for in order to win me back, but I am afraid they will not be permanent changes and 2 years from now I will be going through this all over again. Your thoughts?

M

Michelle,

I have to say that I am a beginner in all of this, and so I am hoping some others will chime in here as well. I don't think you should share your goals with your H, at least not in the near term. Alot of what the book is saying, and you may not like this, but you have to make changes to see changes, at least from my understanding, It takes one to tango. Your goals are things that you wish for you to do that will affect changes in him. 1 of goals was to be nice and humorous with my W, leading to the goal of getting her to want to call me 3 times per week. She has already called me 7 times in the last 2 days, and I just got 2 emails from her, 1 asking me to call her later. It is a start, but OMG this is hard. Hardest job I have ever attempted. Read the book(s) and do your part, then let him read the books and watch to see what happens. I pray it goes your way, and he wakes up.

I agree with you on no meds. I talked with my counselor about me not wanting any meds, and he agreed. I really was in better spirits last night than the first 2 meetings. I have a Dr appt in a couple of weeks where I am going to ask for tests about a chemical imbalance in my system, and if so, how to treat through diet and exercise. My sister had some of the same symptoms I did and it turned out to by thyroid problems.

I am glad I can help you at least a little. You have been immearureably good for my psyche. You have helped me in ways I don't even know, and I thank you. It is good to bounce ideas off of a WAW who is in a similar sitch as my WAW. I wish there was a way I could pay you back or smack your H upside the head so that he could be smarter and give your M a chance.

I am glad you are feeling better today. The sun is going to rise, so should we. I am starting the gym on Fri. I think I am going to try sky diving in 2 weeks. I am going to see if the enemy's soon to be ex wants to do a guys trip to Mexico or something soon. That will get back to my W. Do you think that will make a difference to her at all? I have a ski trip for next month planned.

Michele -
I was reading your thread y'day and thinking - boy, this H seems like such an immature jerk who needs a mom more than a W. She's worked with him and he is unwilling to change - why doesn't she give up.

Then I related to my own sitch as the LBS. I know my W thinks she has tried to get me to change. She tells me she's been working on this for years and is just "worn out". Funny thing is, I can't remember more than a couple of occasions where she did anything specific to get through to me, and I remember several times where I tried to engage her and she brushed me off. My point is, that in most of our situations both parties feel like the communications on how the WAS felt just were not effective. I suspect there must be some of that dynamic in your sitch, as somehow you are not getting through to your H. Either that, or he is just a big dunce!

.

Anyway, it pains me a bit to see someone like you here wanting to work on your M and having your H be oblivious to the need to change. I figure there must be more there.

Good luck

D

D,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, that is true...I may not have communicated in a way that he could hear (I mean really hear) what I was saying. I believe that may be the case in the beginning the first few times I left, but I am positive that I was very clear this last time.

I wrote a list of the things I was unhappy about. Some were things I personally wanted to work on, the rest were R things. The list itself may have been vague, but when it came to the actions I wanted him to take - they were specific and clear.

For example, in December 2003, I told him that he had to go to a C for his money issues. I told him that this person had to have experience in money addictions and obsessive/compulsive behavior. I said he had to find a C and attend 1 session before the end of January. H is a bit of a procrastinator - so deadlines were necessary. I asked for proof of this visit in either a receipt or the duplicate check copy. Btw, he never gave me proof, but I knew he was going b/c I saw the checks clearing our account.

I documented the things I asked for in writing so he could have it to refer to, when/if in doubt. I even told him that he could get a list of C's that his insurance would accept by calling the number on his insurance card and start from there.

I think this might tell you more about my H. On our 8th anniversary we were getting ready to start our day, when he doubled over in pain. He wouldn't move. I asked if he was alright and he said no. After much debate and encouragement, I finally got him to go to the hospital. Turns out he had kidney stones. They said there were 3, but only 1 was moving, which was causing the pain. They gave him something for the pain and refered him to a urologist. I called made the appointment and took him to see the urologist. He was given a container to urinate in so they could run some tests to determine the cause of the kidney stones. 1 1/2 years later that container is still in our house! I can do a lot of things for him, but I can't urinate for him.

I kept on him about it every time I would see the container. He finally put it in a cabinet, so I wouldn't see it regularly and I would stop asking about it.

Any suggestions?
M

I have a suggestion.

Might as well forget about the urine container. He should just throw it out.

I think DinWa is right about him seeming to need a mother. Do a 180 and don't pressure him to do the things it's in his own best interest to do. Don't remind him of anything. He might just be behaving stubbornly because you ask/tell/remind him to do something. Try a 180 and don't bother to tell/ask/or inquire about things that he needs to do. That or find another hole with cheese in it (from the book...don't know if you have it).

Wes

Michelle -
some of that hits home. At some point when I was in full pursuit mode (post-bomb) my W said to me "I feel like I have 3 children to take care of (e.g. my 2 D's + Me). I was pretty dependent on her for things. She made my hair appointments, Dr. appointments, planned vacations, any dates we would have. In my defense I worked really really hard - but probably to the extent I ignored my family.

So it was something about me, but also something about her enabling my actions (or is it inactions). I know that post bomb I have had to get my act together and have really gotten back in touch with myself. However - that took a whole lot of new self-awareness and personal insight. Through counseling, I have figured some stuff out (like the fact that I never slept and didn't care about anything probably were symptoms of depression) Even at that I am not sure it is enough to convince my W to come back to me.

Seems to me that your H still has not gotten it. I mean he hears you but doesn't have the self-awareness he nees to change. For most of us the 2x4 of the "bomb" was enough to get us motivated - that's why we bought DR and found this site. I don't know exactly what to tell you to get through to him. Maybe you can give him DR and he will read and get it, maybe counseling will work. Maybe you have to just keep pushing him away until he figures it out. Work on yourself and see if he comes around. That is kind of what most of us are doing

D

Thanks, Phoenixduex.

I haven't been asking/telling/reminding him of anything for the past 10 - 12 months. Mainly b/c it doesn't do any good and only frustrates me. Still no changes in his behavior.

I have the DB book, but haven't gotten that far, but I have watched the Marriage Breakthrough tapes and Michele talks about it in there so I get the reference - just not sure how I should apply it here. I have tried the you need to _______ (whatever the task that needs to be done). I have tried the 180 of not saying or doing anything. I have stayed and I was miserable b/c my emotional needs were not being met. I have left and found peace, a lot less stress, and some happiness, but also loneliness and confusion. I miss the security of having him there.

I don't know any other paths to try. Find another hole w/ cheese? I read that now and think that might mean another path in life - time to move on??? I am ready to end the emotional roller coaster; one way or another. I don't care. I am tired of trying with no results. Severing the R may be the only way to end my frustration and hurting.

Does that make sense?

M

Michelle,

I think that Phoenixduex was referring to cheeseless tunnels. It can apply to you finding a new path, with or without H. I think he meant that your H (the rat, not really calling him a rat, but that is what is up with this analogy) is always searching down a certain tunnel for the prize (cheese). He will keep going down that tunnel. Somehow you need to move the cheese and then teach him to use the other tunnel. Otherwise, he will go down that bad tunnel forever even if there is never cheese there again.

Severing the R may be the only answer you have left, but you came here asking advice. That says you are not ready for that choice yet. Finish DB. I have not read that one, but really like DR. Follow the steps patiently. Give the book to your H and see if he begins to get it. If he doesn't, THEN maybe it is time to move on. But for now, you have only been posting for a few days, get your goals and plan of action together, and then execute it patiently. I think it is too early to give up. Try the program first, and then see.

Patience is not a good word for me today. I am posting today's interactions in just a minute. Please tell me your thoughts.

I don't mean to steal your post but I was wondering if Michelle21 would please read mine and tell me what her opinion is? My thread is in sepearted forum under 2nd time husband has left...Ashmo17.
Thank you!!!!
Amy

Amy,

I will read your sitch now.

M

Michelle,
It must be the moon because you are the second newcomer this week I can really relate too. c I have been on this board 5 months, and I always hear the comment � wow are sitches are so much a like� Although I have thought that before- you are the first person to post here were I think wow are we married to the same man.
I am not really good with expressing myself on the board, I get too emotional when I am venting here and leave important stuff out.

Quote:
My H was (yes, past tense) a compulsive spender; often spending without any regard for my well being. I was the one doing without so that he could have "things" (material things). He would hide, lie and deny his spending habits whenever I would confront him. He could and would lie to my face.

He would spend and I would figure out how to pay the bills. At one point, I would use one credit card to pay the minimum balance on another and often worried that we were at our limit. I took care of the finances, the house, the yard, etc. Occasionally, he would help, but for the most part I was on my own.

This word for word describes my H- Even though he was the WAS- Because I was too �controlling over money�. And this is one of the reasons I have not taken him back.

Quote:
I haven't been asking/telling/reminding him of anything for the past 10 - 12 months. Mainly b/c it doesn't do any good and only frustrates me. Still no changes in his behavior.

I tried this too. Infact I was doing this when he left- Kind of a well if he does not care that the lawn is a foot high, then neither do I.
I am SO SO SO tried of being my husband mother, I want to be his wife not his mother. It is frustrating as hell, I so understand. Not only that but if is very very stressful to be the only one being responsible. To be the only one worrying.

So what can you do! I wish I had the answers. My H is truly trying, and it is going to take a lot of growing up on his part and a lot of time. But He finally realizes that he needs to fix this, it is the only way to get me back.
I do have a suggestion, to get your H to listen, it is probably bad advice, but it worked for me. But before I give you my advice I have a few questions. I am a little confused are you living together? How old is your H. I am also, going to get my H to read your thread- I think it will help him understand how I feel- and maybe he can give you some insight on your H actions.
The one thing I have a really hard remembering/ understanding is how it can be so hard NOT TO SPEND MONEY. I have said to my H a 100 times, just do nt spend, he answers- I know it is hard. I don�t get it, but I am trying to understand.

married-three_months,

Thanks for the response. I think that it would be a great idea to have your H read the posts that explain how you are feeling. Sometimes it's easier for someone close to us to hear something from someone they do not know personally. You know what I mean? Maybe when you try to explain how you feel to him; he gets defensive and doesn't really hear what you are telling him.

I have learned that my H had to learn to distinguish between a want and a need when it came to spending money. My H had to learn that when he had the urge to spend - he needed to step back and think to himself : Is this a need or a want? If it was a want; then how am I going to pay for it w/o setting me or us back financially? He has learned to control the impulse spending. I personally think that he liked the instant gratification from buying "things".

No, we are not living together. I moved into an apt June 1. H is 34. I believe my H got his money issues b/c his parents are well off and he never had to learn to budget or do without or even make choices between this or that. they always bought him everything he wanted.

I look forward to hearing your advice - good or bad. I will consider anything at this point.

Thanks,
M

You are right. Usually it is easier to have someone else get through to your S. I don't know why we don't listen to the opinions of the ones we love the most in the first place. That is why I have that as one of my goals, number 2. I will listen intently to my W's opinions.

Maybe one thing for your H that would help, IF you got back together, would be to have pay all the bills for a month or two just to see what you have to deal with. While he is doing that, you spend. Don't use the stuff, and keep the receipts to take it back if you want, but put the shoe on the other foot. Role reverse with him. My W role reversed on me, and it sure got my attention.

I am planning a speech at some point in the future. She says we are bad for each other. In arguments, she would follow me around to talk about it now. I would try to get away to cool down before saying stupid things. This would frustrate both of us. She being the pursuer and me being the flee-er. We would escalate to very ugly comments. "What would have happened if before it really started to escalate if I had turned around, gave her a hug, and told her how I feel about her (and not how I feel right that second

). How much better would we have been for each other? She says that people can't change. I went down a darker and darker path this last year. Isn't that a change. Why can't I come back from the darker path? If I break some bad habits and replace them with some good habits, isn't that me changing? I am not there yet, but I am working on it. She saved me from a very bad place. I have to thank her. I just wish the cost was not so high."

What do you think of that kind of speech Michelle? It is way too early for that, especially since she told me she is going on a ski trip, maybe, next month. I am still bummed about her going to Vegas. I think there is a remote chance she will invite me to Vegas. Very small, and unlikely, but it could happen. Also could happen that this S could be longer than I hoped, or could end in D. Thoughts?

Gene,

First, I like what you are saying about changing the bad habits into good habits. It's a valid point, but I am not sure now is the right time to give her the speech. Have you had an argument w/ her where you hugged her and told her how you felt before it got really ugly? If not, I think she needs to see more of the good habits before you give her the speech.

As the WAW, I do not want you putting too much HOPE into her asking you to join the Vegas trip. If she is wanting a little distance and space to sort through her emotions; then she may use the trip as a means of "distance" literally. I wouldn't want to see you disappointed (and possibly depressed) as a result if she doesn't ask. I suggest that you plan on her not asking you to go; and then if she does you will be pleasantly surprised.

I agree that now is not the time to have that conversation. I was thinking that it was getting close until she told me about her ski trip. I have never had an argument with her where I would turn around and hug her and tell her I love her. That would be a major 180. There is no way that could happen right now because I am not in, that is why I would only be able to tell her about it.

I agree that she is probably not going to ask me to go with them to Vegas. It just crossed my mind during the conversation this morning. This is absolutely the hardest job I have ever taken on, and by far the most important. I pray every day for patience to get my W and family back. I wish W could be more like you Michelle. 5 times of leaving. It only takes one for me to want to change my life to be a better man, a better husband, and a better father. How do I get that through to her. Patience. It has only been one week.

Gene, I really do know what you are going through but you need back off and give you W some space. Make her wonder about your changes and what you are doing - she will I promise.

It took me a while to realize this. My W was gone for 2 months before she returned. I know she would have come back sooner if did not pursue her.

Good luck this weekend.

Gene,

Keep up the good work.

Just to give you a little perspective...it took your W a while to decide to leave and then to get the courage to tell you about that decision. Therfore, she will be very cautious to reverse that decision. She needs time. Time to miss you, time to heal, etc.

When I left the first time; I think it took me 2 -3 months before I was ready to come back. Hopefully, she will see the differences in you and your time apart will not be that long.

Question -
In a conversation I had w/ H last weekend; he mentioned going out to the MAC website and checking out their new products. MAC is the make-up that I wear for those of you who are not familair w/ MAC. I keep thinking about this - if he has time to go surfing/shopping on the web; then why is he not searching for M saving websites, like this one?

I have a b-day coming up so he could have possibly been shopping for that reason. Why he has not tried finding ways to save the M, especially since he tells me that he just wants his W back and for us to be happy together?

Michelle,

Thanks for the perspectives on how long it may take. I have only been out for 1 week. I think that maybe after tomorrow, I might go dark a little. Become much less available for a few days. Don't answer the phone or emails.

As for your question. Your H may not know that those websites for saving a marriage exist. Until a friend lent me his DR book, I had no idea. I was just telling her that I am changing. I did not know that this place or these methods existed. There are others as well, but I was clueless. Do you have a mutual friend that you trust that could pass this info on to him? Not about this website of course, but maybe something like savemymarriage.com. Maybe a friend like this could be the one to pass DB or DR on to your H. Sometimes we do listen to others besides our spouses better.

There's lots of answers to that one Michelle.

He could be looking at marriage building websites and you just aren't aware of it. I read this site a lot but still, I do look at other sites.

Or..

Gene is right. Maybe he doesn't know these sites exist. When I found out about the affair, I started looking for articles relating to that topic. I stumbled across a message board completely by mistake. I had never even thought of looking on the internet for support.

Perhaps this isn't his kind of help. My H doesn't read here and has never had any interest in reading relationship books either. It's just not his thing. He deals with things differently than I do.

Rather than assuming that he isn't reading marriage rebuilding material, why not just ask him? Why not suggest to him that it would be a good and thoughtful thing to do?

Thanks for the replies, but he looks for everything else on the Internet. He is a complete techy, which just makes me feel like he isn't trying.

I did the forgiveness exercises today. It felt good. I feel free, now. I want to write H an note and simply say "I forgive you". What do you think?

M

hello michelle,

I have never replied to your thread before but my W has been on here for awile and I also joined this site to try to get help for myself to be a better me. I am/was alot like your H when it came to spending, and you are right it probably does have to do alot with his upbringing. My W realizes that it is not easy for me to just change this. If he is alot like me I have been like this all my life and it takes hard work for me not to do it now. I still slip every once in awile the difference is I feel terrible when I slip now, before it was "oh well we'll be fine" but not any more. I trained myself, it used to be bad, I used to spend up to $20 per day on nothing, I would walk into a store and buy a pop and chips and a magazine and 2 chocolate bars etc. now when I walk into a store I bring 2 dollars with me and I force myself to choose a bag of chips or a pop or a chocolate bar. I also had a bad time with the bar scene. I would spend until the night was over. now I end the night when the money that I go in with is gone. It won't be easy for him but if you are worth keeping in his mind he will change. Even now I slip and I asked my W for help. This will only work if he WANTS to change if he doesn't he may get angry with you. what I am doing now is my W will get my entire cheque from work. If I want to go out she will give me money 20 or 40 or what ever. this will force me to watch my money, I don't have and endless supply for the night. if I want the night to last longer I have to stretch my money. like I said this won't work with everyone but I really want to change. I used to do this and I resented her if she wouldn't give me more money, I have to realize now that I made the choice to put her in charge of my money and she will never steer me wrong if she says no there is a reason. you and your H may not be at the point we are right now. If you read married-three_months threads you know what I did was way worse than this. I screwed up bad. There are alot of things that I have changed about myself and my W is probably more in your shoes than you know. It will be hard for her to believe that the changes I have made are for good, it is not for her to believe, it is for me to prove. I hope that this helped even a little, I hope things work out for you where ever life may take you.

I don't think it would be a good idea to send him that note yet, unless you want him calling you and trying to pressure you back. Believe me on coming from the other side of things. Forgive him for you, act like it, but don't tell him now. Get the book to him after you are done, and see if he can figure it out. But, that advice is coming from someone who blew it yesterday. I am back at square 1.

m3m_h,

Thanks for the suggestions. I think you missed the part that I made him go to a C for his money issues. That is no longer a problem for us. Of course, I expect that there will be slips, but I hope they will few and far between and that he will have remorse/regret when they happen whereas he didn't in the past.

What my issue with H is that I had to force him to go to a C. I feel like I have to fight for anything and everything to get my wants/needs met. It's all emotional fights and I just don't have the energy to continue battling to get my needs met. I am tired of fighting. I just end up disappointed and hurt.

M

Hi Michelle,

Your situation is very difficult because while you think of yourself as the WAW, you are the position of being the one actively working on the marriage. I think that questioning whether it's all worth it sound pretty normal. I often do my own questioning as well. I look at the changes I'm attempting to make in myself and while I feel good about it, it's not really appreciated by my WAW. Plus she's not working on our marriage at all and at this point isn't very attractive (in a more emotional sense) to me.

So have you made your goals for your relationship and looked for little signs that it's working out? What is it that you want your H to be doing differently that he's not doing right now? Does he say he wants to work on the marriage? If so, maybe you just need to spell out for him your needs in a different way. Focusing on what his actions will be and put in positive terms rather than negative ones (such as not saying "you'll be less critical of me. Rather, you'd say I want you to be more supportive of my opinion and say more compliments and such when deserved).

Michelle, it all sounds very complex because I'm not sure whether you and your H are on the same page at all. I'm not even sure from reading the thread whether you have gotten past resentment that he won't commit fully to this relationship. When he makes strides in the right direction maybe he just needs a compliment or praise (ie thanks for focusing on X). I don't know. I think you just need to experiment and see what works.

Hope some of that helps

Wes

Gene,

Thanks. I did not send him anything over the weekend. We are going out Saturday night to celebrate my b-day. I thought about telling him then I forgive him, but my feelings about the R have not changed. I am just not sure this is a good idea either. I will just wait and see how things go between us.

I know he is planning something really nice b/c when I am asked him how I should dress he told me "dressy". I am not really looking forward to it though. H is going overboard to take me somewhere extravegant and buy me a nice gift as a means to "impress" me. He is showing me love in the way he always does - he buys me things or takes me out to extravegant places.

Unlike most women, that is not what I want. I just want a quiet dinner with a few friends or family, talking and sharing. I am not a material girl in any way. It is the little things that touch my heart.

I was thinking about this over the weekend; maybe in college when we met I was impressed with the extravegant gifts, at first, b/c I hadn't really ever had anyone shower me w/ gifts the way he did. But then I grew up and realized that I didn't want or need those things. Instead, I wanted things that had meaning, not value. I am also a very conscious person, and I felt the extravegant gifts or places just added to our already hefty debt and created more financial problems.

Yes, I have told him this...in fact, I had him return the first engagement ring he bought me; telling him that it was too big; that I did not need anything that big. I told him the monthly payments were like a car payment. So he returned the ring and bought himself a new car! So much for my efforts to decrease the debt.

As I have said before, I feel like I am always battling. I try to do things to reduce our debt, to get the emotional attention I want/need, etc, but somehow H always finds a way to turn into something for himself and I just sit back while it happens not know what to do to change it.

Sometimes even when I know what I should do, I don't do it. Like making him return something he purchased or telling him no when he wants to spend. I love him and I want him to have things; so I will say no (for the financial aspect), but when he mentions it again and agian eventually, I agree b/c it's easier than continuing to be "mean" and telling him no. The same thing happnes when my need for touch and holding turns into s for him. Sometimes, I just want to be held. I will hug him or snuggle up next to him and the next thing I know he is all over me tearing my clothes off. When I say, I just wanted to be held he gets mad; and then I give in and give him s. He's happy and I am miserable; feeling like his needs are more important than mine.

M

Michelle,

I don't blame you on not wanting to be the one to always work on the R. That is hard work. Sounds like one of your goals should be to get him to start working on the R a little at a time. I don't know that actions to take to get him to realize and then begin doing. One of the things I am thinking of for the future if it works out, is a talking stick. We meet regularly to talk about our needs and if they are being met, and whoever holds the talking stick can talk openly, and the other has to listen with their heart open. I have all kinds of ideas for the future, don't know if I will be able to implement with my W.

I found out over the weekend, that I am controlling. If you could look at my thread at your leisure, and please advise from a WAW perspective. I think I see a little of that in your H as well. Just curious as to the best way to do things to help her financially with no strings attached, and to give her space and time and let her control. I don't know if there is more I need to work on as well. I really do feel like I am making progress on the anger and depression issues. Now I find out that I am a controller.

Gene,

I already replied to your sitch.

M

Wow Michelle,

Your H and I are more alike than I thought. I would always convince my wife to let me buy more of a certain stock. She was not comfortable, but I would bully until she said yes. I have stopped buying it now.

She also would just like to be held. I have not put the "moves" on in a long time. I have just held, up until I moved out. What do you need to see in your H? Use me as the guinie pig. What do you need to see in him? Run by all of us what you want to see in him, and maybe we could all come up with ways to help him see what you need. First of all, he needs to make it all about you. It is all about what you need at this point. It has been so long that he has unbalanced the boat in his way. It is time to bring it back in balance by moving to what you need. It could be as simple as here is a list of what I need from you. You meet these needs, and we will start moving in the right direction. If you get off track, I will tell you. This is going to be hard, so if you are not up to it, I understand. It would be nice if it were that simple.

It's funny, I asked H to PLEASE leave me alone, give me time and space to sort out some things. I needed time to heal. Time to figure out if I wanted to continue to try to save our M. He is finally doing that - leaving me alone - after 8 months and I think it's having the opposite effect?

I thought that I would miss him. That I would feel lonely and want to work things out. I am not finiding that at all. I am finding that by him leaving me alone I am healing. My heart is healing.

We haven't talked to each other since Monday (last week - Jan. 17th). I was going to contact him over the weekend to tell him I forgave him, but I didn't. I figured I could wait until I saw him Saturday. It's like I continue to limit our contact.

After this weekend; reading DB, doing the forgiveness exercises, etc. I realized that I want to improve myself. I don't want to work on the R. I don't mean that to sound harsh or cold. I am just beginning to accept the reality of my sitch. No changes = no M and I don't see H doing anything to better the sitch.

All I can do is change me, and keep a PMA. That's what I am doing.

M

Oh yeah, I left this one out earlier -
*I want no R talk from H. I would like for us just to go out and enjoy each other for a couple of times w/o having to discuss us.

H is always telling me that he is a new person and he is not the same guy who treated me badly. So, I tell him let me get to know this "new" guy. I ask him to "act as if" we have just met. Let's go out a few times, so I can see the changes and get a feel of what life would be like w/ this new person before asking me for a decision on the R.

That never happens - by the end of the night H usually brings up the question: When are you coming home? I once tried to be funny and responded that I don't move in w/ men I just met after one date. Needless to say, H didn't find it amusing.

M

Michelle,

He has a tough road to go, and he has no clue how hard it is going to be. I am sorry that your heart is getting hardened to the point of no return. It is no fun getting to this point. Your H is sounding more and more like me. Thanks for the posting in that I see myself, and how I need to be. That helps me, and some others here, but I don't know what to say about getting your heart softer towards your H. If he were to start listening to you, really listening, stop talking about the R, putting in the effort to find your needs and then putting in the effort to meet your needs, would that start to soften your heart? How do you get that across to him? He has no clue. Is there really no way you would want to get him a list of your grievances, and more importantly, needs? From my perspective it is really hard to know what to think or do, especially when you have not seen or talked with him for a week.

It really helps me. I am going to back off of my W, and let her lead the dance. I am going back to my goals. I will make our conversations light and fun. I will listen to W. I will support her life goals. I will let her control the situation (the newest goal). I really want to call her to let her know I will help financially more than what I have, but I will let her call me when she needs something and get it to her gratiously.

Michelle21,
First of all I would like to congratulate you for the commitment you have shown to your marriage. I understand you are on the fence and its understandable. I very much admire your commitment, you should be proud of yourself.

Your husband is so very lucky to have a wife who is willing to think about trying.

Shortly after my divorce I stopped pushing my XW. Leading up to the D I tried to refrain from pressure, believe me everytime I was around her and even when I wasn't I wanted to convince her she was making a mistake, that she belonged with me. It is very hard not to push, even now. I also evoked some guilt and pity. All of this is natural, however and this is very important, IT IS NOT PRODUCTIVE. It is very important that your H understands this.
Understand that not everything will change at once, you have said that he has made some changes, this is positive, no-one knows if he will keep it up. Have you shared this positive with him?

One of my biggest problems was that I never thought my W would leave. I took her for granted and treated her badly. One of the reasons I did this was because I did not realize the consequences of my actions. I unfortanately had to realize the consequences before I woke up. I lost the one person whom I truely loved, our marriage is now over. I hurt her so much. I have alot of anger and guilt for the things I have done. I pray it does not take this to get through to your husband. Does he know that you are contemplating divorce?

There are many ways to open his eyes.
1. give him the DR book and ask him to read it - the title should say it all "Divorce Remedy"
2. Keep your distance
3. Work on yourself, your H will see you moving on and this may wake him up.

Some things I wish my W had done:
Tell me: "If we dont start working on our relationship, we are headed for a divorce"
I wish she had conveyed her feelings to a mutual friend, while this may have humilated me, I would rather have know how serious the situation was Vs. Divorce. We both have a mutual friend which would had called me and told me to start getting serious about my relationship.
I wish she had insisted on counseling
I wish she had given me DR and asked me to read it.
My W is a wonderfull woman, all I fault her for is enabling me, she and I both wish she would have stood up for more than she did. She let me get away with too much, this in no way excuses my behavior, however it made it easier for me to continue down the wrong path.
Divorce is such a trajedy, such a senseless trajedy. I have 2 and 4 year old boys whom I feel I have let down in the worst way.
XW and I still see each other, talk and joke. We are the exception to the norm. I still have hopes for us and our family.

I hope I have given you something to think about.

Gene,

I don't know if anything will soften my heart. Some days I feel like I am just ready to move on. Mainly b/c this is try #5 for me.

I do realize that it is only try #1 for H.

I had a talk w/ my mom this weekend. She said I should NOT try to force a decision - that one day it will just come to me. That right now I am just struggling b/c of all the hurt, b/c I have Hope, b/c he says what I want to hear, etc. She said to hang tough b/c as the hurt heals; I will know just know without a doubt what the right decision for me is. She also said she hates to see me hurting. I don't really think it's hurt anymore. I think it's sadness. I am sad b/c deep down I know it's over.

I am so glad I could help others. Sometimes I think if H heard this from someone else or if he would find the various M saving websites and read through things; he might understand....but then reality sets in and I know the truth.

A few months ago, I was talking to a friend, who said that they wanted to smack him upside the head and set him straight. I told this friend to go ahead - talk to him. I said that I don't keep anything from him, so feel free to repeat anything I have said, etc. Well, later that evening I got a call from my friend. She was just a frustrated as I was after talking to my H. She said he was like a brick wall. He got defensive and wasn't listening to her either.

I don't know if I can continue to do this. It's so hard on me emotionally. I continue hanging on by a thread; I get just enough from him to have HOPE and then that hope is shattered again and again.

The whole process just makes me lose HOPE and wish it was over, so that I could finally move on.

M

Michelle,

I have to agree with your Mom. Smart lady. I am not saying that you should stay in your M or not, but when you are giving it time like this, the right decision will come to you. I do feel for you. Having someone verbally smack your H upside the head, and it still not sink in, I don't even know what to say. My W and Mom are close. My Mom also tried to verbally smack me upside the head, and I did not get it until now, so maybe there is some hope for your H, it just may be too late in your eyes even if he does come around. It makes me sad just reading your sitch, since I see so many similarities to my own. I am trying to change so hard, and it just may be too late for my W. Now I just have to work on me and worry about her and my children's happiness. Since you said your H is saying all the right things, or at least some of the right things, maybe he really is doing all that he knows right now. That is progress. But, if it is the same things he was doing the other 4 times as well, then I don't know. I wish I could smack him upside the head, and then have him smack me upside the head. Might do us both some good.

You are a good person. Everything you have said to everyone here on the board speaks volumes about you. I breaks my heart to think that your H could drive away someone who is so genuine and good. It lowers my expectations of my own M. I almost don't know how to show the changes I am working on to my W, and if it would do any good at this point if she even noticed. I am very humbled right now, and your H should be as well. It almost feels wierd in that I almost feel like begging for him, how attractive huh? I hope this is just a blue day for you, and you are feeling better about your M tomorrow. Please keep letting us know how it goes.

Michelle -
Well, I don't have a lot of advice to give, as I am sitting on the other side of the fence. However, I do want to thank you for continuing to post and share your feelings. So many of the things you say I have heard from my W. Heard, but I am not sure I understood as well as when you say them here. When you talked about not being hurt but sad - that really hit home.

I do wish the best for you and your H. I hope you can find some of the feeling you had for him. But it gives me hope that you want to.

D

Michelle,

Glad I could add a little jocularity into this all. Humor is needed all the time. Does your H have a good sense of humor?

Hopefully, in a new R or back with your H, the happy fun times will not be little. If there is anything I learned from Michele's books and tapes and coach, a relationship can be great. I have learned how to stop being angry. I have learned that I need to stop controlling, still need to learn how to do that. I want to have open times where my W and I can talk about our needs and how they are being met, and how those that aren't can be met. That is one thing that makes it so hard for the H of a WAW to back off on. I see things that can make it better, and I am so ready to implement those to make the M better, but my W, similar to you, needs her space and not talk about the R, while seeing me do things to prove I am changing, which would make the M better. It is a difficult conundrum (spelling?). The key is patience. Again, in your case, your H does not know that he needs the patience. I will be saying a prayer for him to learn, and a prayer for you to come to a decision when the time is right, and that the decision is right for you and your happiness. As for me, I have not bothered my W, and I am letting her come to me when she is ready to talk or needs something. I would like to offer her more help tomorrow, and let her know that I am not trying to control anything with this offer (I know that sounds contradictory to the last sentence). It looks like W got her student loan, and may not need my help.

Gene,

Yes, he does have a good sense of humor.

Be happy for her. Congratulate her on the student loan. Kepp letting her come to you.

I feel like talking to H, but at the same time I do not want to give him false hope. I know that I need to spend time with him to see the changes. I just hope that our time together is spent enjoying each others company and not talking about our R, at least not yet. I want to see more effort and changes before getting into the R discussion.

I'll keep you posted as to how our evening goes Saturday. I am avoiding contact until then. Should I contact him to arrange the meeting since I was the one asking for the time and space?

M

Remeber how I was getting upset (for lack of a better word) that he wasn't out on message boards or M saving sites? The response was maybe he isn't aware of them, etc.

Well, I was just cleaning out my e-mail box here at work and found an e-mail I sent him Jan 3 - with the link to divorcesource.com (this site) asking him what he thought about the Marriage Breakthrough video tapes. Obviously, he didn't take any time to surf it.

What should I think about this news?

M

Michelle,

It may be a good idea to confirm your Saturday plans in an email maybe. That would not give him a lot to begin talking R.

I just looked at divorcesource.com. It is not this site, divorcebusting.com, but it may have a link in there somewhere. Thanks for pointing that one out. I am going to buy another book from there to help with my sitch. The site looked kind of big, so he may not have seen this site linked in. I didn't in my quick search. Is there any way you could check credit card purchases to see if he bought anything from there?

I can tell you something my W did that got my attention about not talking about R. She told me that she did not want to talk about our Relationship right now, that it was too painfull, and that since I did not respect that from now on if I brought it up she would walk off. She never left, but I realized how much it actually hurt her and I gradually stopped talking about R. Partly because I knew it was driving her away, partly because it hurt her and partly because it got us no-where. Maybe telling him this and enforcing your boundries (by walking away) will enable him to understand. It would be very hard, but it may be worth a shot. If you try something like this dont expect perfection, for instance if he talks about R every time you meet, consider it a success if only talks R every other time. Baby steps. What would be the first indication that things are heading in the right direction, however small?

Gene,

If he did purchase anything out there it would have been on his debit card, which is attached to his checking. That's another painful subject....when I moved out we agreed I would take this bill, he would keep that bill and so on. We also agreed that we would keep our accounts the same.

About two weeks out, I found out (from his sister) that H opened new checking and savings accounts. I also learned that he got a new check card, etc. It killed me. It hurt me b/c 1) he was so adamant that I not separate our finances or insurance or gym memberships, etc. and 2) b/c I heard it from his sister; not him.

Why did he open new accounts and change his direct depoist, etc. and separate our finances? I asked him this; he said it was so he could show me he was being responsible with money (since that was such a HUGE issue between us). He thought it would help us. Then why not discuss it with me? He said he did - right after he told me that he was filing for a D.

All it did was hurt me. I think it hurt me b/c we did not discuss it - he just decided he wanted new accounts. I was not consulted. I felt like it was so I wouldn't see what he was purchasing, how much his checks were, etc.

A month or so later (July or August), I finally opened my own checking. About a month ago (mid-Novemeber), I opened a savings and got a new check card, too. Up until then, he could see everything I was doing.

All these little hurts just add up and now I don't care what he is doing. I find it really hard to want to be w/ someone who continues to do things that hurt me. I mean, why get me to agree to keep our accounts joint and then go open his own? I felt like it was spiteful.

It's kind of like one day, shortly after I moved out, we were arguing and he just came out and said he was going to file for a D. After the shock wore off; I just started crying. He said he was going to file b/c that's what I wanted. I said fine. Then Monday, I announced to our friends and family that we had separated and were getting a D. I talked to him shortly after that and he said he didn't want to get D. Maybe the threat of a D was his way of trying to manipulate me???

When I did the forgiveness exercises, I did one forgiving him for constantly using manipulation to get what he wants. I had forgotten about the new accoutns and the threat of D until you asked if I could check his credit cards....wow - it still stings.

M

Michelle,

I am running out of things to tell you. I thought I was bad, and I was. Actually, my W saw how much my last paycheck was, and now how much financially she is struggling, and it made her mad. I just opened another account so that I can get direct deposit without her seeing it. I thought I was helping her, but it was a bad move to not tell her. I will tell her tonight, as well as offering to help her more. Can you think of a way to offer that would not seem controlling.

I agree with Hope a little. If he does not talk about the R but maybe only 50% of the time, would that be progress? If things started to change, what would be some of the first signs? Have you finished the book to the point where maybe you could give it to him on Saturday? Happy Birthday, by the way.

Michelle,

From my own personal situation, I often asked for forgiveness about many things and my W indicated that it does little good when I just repeat the same thing I'm apologizing for.

In your situation, I think it may be very difficult to forgive things that are presently a problem and haven't resolved in any way. I know that working on a problem is difficult when you haven't let go of the resentment and forgiven your S, but a blanket pardon, even when he continues the same old things probably isn't reasonable either. Continue to think of different ways to approach the solution. Maybe there were times when things worked out okay and think about what was different about those times. Change things up a bit.

Wes

Gene,

I was just loooking at the other website and I don't see a link to this site, but I would hope that he would take initative and look for other things himself. I might ask him about it Saturday night. Casually . . . I will not make a big deal about it. I might just say, "btw, I found a few websites on saving marriages that I found helpful. Have you found any that you like? If he hasn't looked for that kind of thing; I will try to not be crushed and I will work on my "act as if" if doesn't bother me that he isn't making an initative to save "us".

As far as offering to help your W financially, I would say something like, "My pay check was more than usual. I wanted to give you some additional money." and then just be ready with the cash/check or however you help her normally. I wouldn't give her a check from your new account - trust me, women are sneaky. If I had his account number, I could easily find out his balance, pay amount, etc. b/c I know his social security number, passwords, etc.

YES, YES, YES - tell her about the new account. I don't care what you say, but tell her about it. You could tell her that you opened it so that you would not make her have to keep up w/ both of you writing checks or getting money from the one account or whatever "positive" reason. I don't know that I would say - I opened it so you wouldn't see how much my checks were and get upset. You can tell her the real reason later. Much later, after you are back together and living the happily ever-after. Whatever you do, tell her. Look at it this way - if she took out the student loan w/o your knowledge, how would you feel? If the situation was reversed; would you want her to tell you she opened an account? Let me just tell you that if you are trying to regain her trust and faith in you, then you need to tell her. It may still hurt her a little, but it will be so much better upfront and coming from you.

M

hope33,

Thanks for the suggestion. Usually when I walk off, he follows me. It's more than just following me around though. I am not sure how to describe it. It's like he wants so much for me to give him the answer he wants that he "badgers" me. He will go on and on about whatever; until I eventually I give in. Not b/c this is what I want to do, but more to get him to stop. He will follow me, and then block me in a corner and continue asking me why we can't work things out. The only way I have been able to get away from the sitch is to agree w/ him.

H is controlling and emotionally abusive. He doesn't ever hit me, but he will hold me against my will. In the early years, I called the cops on him b/c he would scare me. At one point, I thought about putting a restraining order against him to get him to leave me alone. When we have broken up in the past, he would just show up wherever I was, leave notes, cards, flowers, etc on my car. His behavior, when I have left before, borders on stalking.

M

Wes,

I was hoping that by forgiving him of pthe past manipulations; I would not allow him to continue to manipulate me. I haven't had any contact with him since I did the forgiveness exersises.

M

FYI -

I felt I should change my login name since I will soon be asking H if he found any sites like this. The other was too easy for him to figure out.

M

Michelle -
If it is not too much to ask, would you mind poking in my thread to give me your thoughts? So many things you have said resonate with me and are things I have heard from or seen in my W. I think you might have some really valuable insights.

I have just posted a pretty good overview of where I see I am and need some help thinking through what I should be doing

any input would be greatly appreciated!

D

Hey, good name change. It sounds more hopeful than how your were sounding yesterday. I will be praying that he has checked out some more websites. Patience and baby steps. Hope he learns that and is able to slowly show you those, not tell you.

Have you found any other promising websites? I found that if you use google and type in divorce busting, there are some other resources on the right side of the page. I bought an ebook from savethemarriage.com. It, and the comments that W made, showed me that I was also being a control freak. DinWa pointed out a book to me. I am going to see if I can find it tonight and begin reading it this week. It is on my thread if you are interested in pointing it out to your H. Can't remember the name right now, but it has to do with anger manangement and control issues. There is also savemymarriage.com that has seminars. There is one in my area in a few months. I mentioned it to W on Saturday, to bad results. As you and others say, got to stop mentioning the R.

Gene,

Actually, I am not sure I am more hopeful, but I thought that was a good name for me. I still have the reality that H isn't taking any initiative smacking me in the face, but as per my usual, I am a forever hopeless romantic.

My hopes have changed since this weekend. I did a lot of soul searching, reflection, forgiving, journaling and letter writing, asking certain individuals to forgive me for miscommunications or other actions that may have hurt them. I am just concentrating on me. I am hoping to finish DB before Saturday so that maybe I can "accidentally" leave it behind.

I have found savemymarriage.com, divorcesource.com, divorceasfriends.com and this one. Honestly, after I found this one, I didn't try looking anymore.

Are you talking about the book related to Anger? I think I saw it when I was buying DB. Maybe I can find a way to casually mention it to H. I asked him when he was going to C for the money issues to talk about that, too, but no such luck. The only way I get results is to demand he do it or lose me foreve - and I HATE being that person. I do not like to "nag"; nor do I like to continue asking for things; hence why I leave. Seems like that is the only thing that wakes H up.

Thanks!
M

M,

The book I was referencing is called The Anger Trap by Les Carter. Thanks to DinWa for pointing it out. I have only started reading, and I see me so well in this book. I set stupid rules, and would blow up when they were not met. I hope to read it before the weekend is over. So much to learn for all of us.

Where did you get your forgiveness exercises? Does that also work for forgiving ourselves?

For people to change, they have to want it bad enough to force their way through to build the good habits in and stop the bad habits. Stopping smoking is not an easy thing, but it probably is a sinch compared to changing the issues were have ingrained into our personalities for 30 or more years (in my case). As I read this book, I am realizing that I will not be ready to go back even if asked for a little while longer. I thought I was doing good in that the anger had not flared. Well, I have a couple of tools to try when I get upset, but I have not dealt with the deeper fears that really trigger the anger. So much work to do. It will be the same with your H. I wish he would start getting that initiative to really get going. I pray he surprises you in that way on Saturday.

As for tonight. I asked W if we could talk for a moment. The first thing out of her mouth was not more of this discussion. I said no quickly. I told her that she was right in that it was not fair. It is only 4 months until she will be flying. If she needs anything. She said she has it all under control, and to just pay the child support. I told her no problem, and that the offer stands. I did not get a chance to mention the other account. I will get that out on Saturday, which is the next time I am sure I will talk with her.

Gene,

I got my forgiveness exercises from a book called: Love, Honor & Forgive. I also got some advice from people here and my C. I don't have the book with me, but basically there are 6 statements of forgiveness that you work through. The book tells you to say them aloud and let it go. The C and others suggested writing them and then burning it. I did both. I wrote them down; then read each aloud and then burned it.

Yes, I would think that it would work for forgiving yourself also. Just a little differently. I am sure you can modify them to fit your purposes.

It's pretty short - the 6 statements, so if you want I will write them to you, but it will have to be later (when I get home) since I don't have the book with me.

I have ahd that book since before I moved out - and I am just now finding myself ready to do them. So be patient, you will know when the time is right.

M

P.S. H sent me the following text message last night - "I know I am not supposed to talk to you, but I really miss you and I love you with all of my heart."

I have not responded. Should I? I thought about saying "Thanks for the message and honoring my request for time." Or something simple like that.

M -
one thing that hit home with me when I was in pursuit mode w/W was when I would try to discuss R or what she was thinking, she'd tell me:

"You just work on yourself and your R with the kids. That is all you can do right now"

Kind of let me know to back off - and essentially, she was just telling what the DB book would have told me had I read it yet!

D

Michelle,

If you get a chance, please do post the 6 statements. I have the feeling there are some things I will have to forgive my W and my father for as I peel back this onion. Onion is the correct term. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, which keeps my W away, and can bring tears.

As much as I would like to say run to your H with open arms after the text msg, mostly 'cause that is what I would want my W to do. He has to make the changes and show you. I think a, "Thanks for giving me the space I continue to need as we each work through our issues," kind of response would be good. That way it kind of says to not push me, but I am still here.

Gene,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will do something like that. He's probably thinking I am ignoring him since he sent it last night and I have not yet replied. OOPS.

I will copy the statements for you later this evening. Not sure if I put this in the previous post, but I wrote a letter to my mother-in-law asking her forgiveness, too. I remembered H recently told me that I had hurt her feelings by making her feel excluded at one of the family functions a few years ago. So I wrote her explaining that I wasn't excluding her by not asking her to cook or clean at my house, but rather I was wanting her to be able to sit back and relax. Then I asked her to forgive me for the incident. Kind of felt like when you go through a 12-step program and you start asking others to forgive you (my father was in AA; so I am familiar w/ the 12-steps). It was a nice feeling. I just hope she appreciates what I am doing.

M

Gene and DinWa,

I sent him this - "Thanks for giving me the space I continue to need." I didn't want to put as we continue to work...b/c I felt like that might give false hope. Remember, that I am feeling like I am the only one working. I thought about adding "Continue to work on yourself." b/c I don't know that he is doing anything.

He responded, naturally... "Not a problem. Take care and I will talk to you soon." I am not responding to this message.

M

sniff sniff. That kind of smells like progress. Good idea not to answer the last text from him. Maybe he is getting the message, at least a little. Be prepared for some back sliding. It is difficult from this side of the fence. I feel I am making progress, and maybe I have, but then I get caught up in the "I'm changing" pattern and it pushes her away. Maybe you could have some sort of plan to gently stop him if he starts R talk. Something that tells him I need space and to not talk about this right now. I also think maybe something to reward him if he does keep the conversations off the R. That is touchy because it could give him false hope again. Just thoughts. I will think some more when I am at the gym and see if there is any ideas of gentle rebuffs and very minor rewards bouncing around this thick skull of mine. Of course that is assuming you would even want to go that route. Then again, this is the first workout of my new life, so my arms may hurt so bad, that I cannot type.

M -
Just don't expect H to be a mind reader about what you want. It is one thing to want him to be working on the R and see that he is not so inclined. Fine to be pissed with him about that. But if he is not doing anything and you have not said, "Hey buster, I need to see the following changes in you" then it is unfair. I am not saying that is the case, I just want to urge you to keep an open mind and to "Ask for what you want". What is that , step 2 or 3?

D

DinWa,

I know, I know - don't set him up for failure. I just sent him an instant message asking if we could talk about OR tonight instead of on our date.

I want to ask a couple of questions - like what has he been doing to work on himself? What sites has he found helpful in dealing with the R.? Has he read any good books regarding Rs? That kind of thing - to find out if he is trying to improve anything. Or maybe he is just doing stuff on his own w/o help or assistance.

If he hasn't done any of the above, then I will tell him specific things I would like, like for him to read DR, for him to set short-term goals, maybe even for us to set a few goals together, etc.

I just need to know how committed he really is. I mean it's one thing to "say" you will do whatever it takes to make us work and be happy together, but it is a whole different thing to actually "do" the actions to get you there.

M

Well, M, what happened? Did you call your H? How did it go?

I agree with DinWa. If my W offered what you are offering, I would be all over it. I have just started peeling back the onion of my life layer after layer, and there are many more to go, and I am sure it is the same with your H (and just about everyone in this world). It is nice to know what we are doing wrong. My W tried to tell me, but I was not listening. Now that I am listening, she no longer wants to tell me.

Gene,

Yes, I called. We talked for 2 hours! Which, btw, is why I forgot to look up the 6 steps for you. Well, it started out where I asked him the question - what is he doing to work on himself? He said reading the book on money issues to remind himself what he learned in counseling, he said reading a R book (I think it's men are like waffles and women are like speghetti - it's about communication differences) and reading the bible for inspiration. However, I was a little disappointed b/c we bought those 2 books before I even left - 8 months later he is still reading them? I let it go and didn't question him anymore about it. I was like "Good! What are you doing to work on OR (us)?" . He said that's kind of hard since you are not here working with me. I said true, but there are still things you could be doing, to make sure we are good together again. I asked about his personal goals, he basically said he didn't have any b/c he only wanted us to fix things and get back together.

At this point, he was getting a bit defensive. He started telling me that it seemed like I had this check list of things I was expecting and he felt like he wasn't getting a lot of checks. I said that I had no hidden agenda; that I just wanted to see how committed he was and I was trying to get a feel for his plans/goals.

I said I would like to see him work on his anger. He then said "I DON'T HAVE AN ANGER PROBLEM". So I said "Then why are you yelling at me?". It just went back and forth where he kept yelling or talking really loud (I could put the phone on the counter and just stand there and hear him clearly).

After the first 45 minutes of this bantering, I said I was sorry I contacted him. I did not want to fight. I was only trying to see what he was actively doing to "fix us" as he always says. I told him I would see him Sat. and no R talk. He calmed down slightly, and continued to talk, saying he was trying to pay off debt as he could and that he just wanted me back. He said he wanted to do things around the house w/ me, etc. I asked him what changed? He used to let me do it all - so why did he now want to do it with me. I told him that I know I should just accept that he is offering, but b/c of our repeated history of him helping out in the beginning and then slacking off shortly after, I needed to understand his motive for wanting to do the mundane household things together. I asked if it was b/c he was doing them himself and realized what a pain in the butt they are and how much better it was to have company while doing them? He said yes, basically.

Anyway, I said that I would really like him to work on the anger. I said he didn't have to go to therapy, but that he could just read a book on controlling his anger. This seemed ok, no agreement, but no argument either. I was rather proud of myself...normally I would have cried or been disappointed and just stopped trying. But this time, I was relatively calm. When he would tell me that he just wanted to take care of me, I would ask him so what would you be doing to "take care of me"? I asked what would he be doing, specifically what actions was he going to take in order to meet my needs. I thought I put him on the spot, so I said you don't have to answer right now. Just think about it. What will you be doing differently? Then he said, first of all I need to know what you need me to do to meet your needs. I was like ah-ha...getting there. I did let him watch tape 1 w/ me. I said so do you want a full list of things I want/need or do you want me to just give you two or three and start with those. He said he wanted the whole list eventually, but he'd start w/ 2-3 upfront. I felt like he wanted to continue talking, but I was ready to end the conversation - 2 hours of R talk was about all I could take, especially w/ the rocky beginning.

After that, I went to work out - needed to release tension. Then I went about my nightly routine, dinner, a little tv, journaling and then to bed. I will get you the steps today/tonight. Writing myself a note and no R talk should keep my mind on track!

I forgot to mention, when I suggested he work on his anger; he immediaely said he didn't have an anger issue. I, of course, provided examples. Then he said I was reacting emotionally and if ______ (one of my girlfriends who encouraged my to S) thinks that b/c of that incident I need to work on my anger, well she doesn't know me. That was just one time.....blah, blah, blah. I said she wasn't there. I am asking you to work on your anger. That seemed to shut him up for a moment!

But thinking about it today; she was there. But she didn't say anything about it. It is still me who wants him to work on the anger.

M

M -
Well, that sounds like progress. Does it feel like progress, especially after having some time to think about it? It sounds like you handled yourself very well. Congrats.

Between Gene and I, I think you have 2 votes for the Anger Trap as a good resource for your H. I didn't think I had an issue either, then I read the book and a lot of things made sense. Of course, I was then instantly labeled by my W, but that is another story.

D

Should I go dark?

M,

You have had a busy day. I have been very busy here at work. I will post my thoughts tonight after the gym. I am sorry I could not get here sooner. I have to think, because I don't even know what to say.

I know what you mean; even I am at a loss for words.
. There is more....

H asks me if I want to go out for Valentines Day. I said you should see what I wanted to say to you instead of just " I didn't mean for my e-mail to cause all of this....I only wanted you to understand why I can't just come back overnight." - you may not feel that way. But I bit my tongue to avoid more fighting.

H responds - I just want us to be back together, and I want us to be happy with one another. We are going to disagree some. You push, I push. I know that we can be happy together, you havn't decided wether to agree or not, so we appear at odds, I want our marriage to work, I just wish you did also the way I do. But I do appreciate you biting your tounge to avoid further confict.

I replied - you want...., you want...., you want..... - that's pretty much all i hear.

H - When you say thats all you hear, I hear from you that it is wrong for me to want us to work. I guess to it seems that when we talk about an us it always seems like you are saying that is bad, and I just dont see that.

Me - I have never said it was wrong or bad for you to want us to be together. Now have I? That is your perception.

H - yes I was not saying that you said it was wrong or bad but that when you make that statement what it says to me is that you think its wrong for me to want that. Look I know you want to be happy, and all I am saying is that you can be happy with us as a couple, but yes I know you weren't as you told me yesterday, again, as you say its all I hear, so you know you could also change your tune, and maybe believe that you can be happy with me.

Me - You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am only pointing out that everything you have said all day is all about YOU. I hurt YOUR feelings, YOUR opinion, YOU want....etc. No matter how much I try to make it about me - it never really is. You talk of me being happy w/ u, but if nothing really changes except that we do household chores together - well, then it's still the same for me. No emotional connection.

H - You know it really is all about you, I want to understand you, know you better, do more for you, but that kind of ties in to us being together to me. I want all of those connections with you, I do want to truely connect with you, more than anything really. I just wish you would believe. I know to you I always ask too much, but please just help me fix our marriage, and us so that we do not ever get here again.

Me - What else has changed? I mean really changed? You have learned to control your spending. I am proud of you, but that doesn't meet my emotional needs. So what else has changed? I WANT SPECIFICS.

H - Everyday I think about you, I want to call you and say hey, I'm on my way home where are you at? Can I do anything to help you or can I start dinner? Or should I lay out some shorts and a tee shirt so we can go walk or go to the gym, I think about what can I do to make your day easier is that fix you a lunch for tomorrow, or maybe just rub your feet when you get home, or at luch one day I just want to get a card for you just to let you know that I was thinking about you, I want to just hug you so that you can not only see but feel that I care about you and your well being. I want to be there when you have some need arise, whatever that is.

Honey, I know you have doubts, I wish you didnt, please believe in me, and know that I will not let you down, I do not want to fight or argue, just want us to have a great loving relationship where we depend and take care of one another. I love you so much and I wish this was not happening to us. I am sorry if I have upset you today, as I only wish to bring you joy.

Me - I am just saddened by the whole situation. Let's not talk about it Saturday night. Ok?

H - We won't I just want us to have fun on your special day. Please just trust me, I know its a lot to ask but give us a whirl, you will not be sorry, I dont want you to be saddened by us I want you to be happy about us. I wish you could just tell me what to do to fix everything, because I would in a heartbeat.

Me - I wish you could have woken up and been this person sooner...before I gave up and fell out of love.

H - I know me too, but please I am here now, don't give up on me.

Me - too late.

You want me to know that you will not let me down - how do you want me to know this? If I go by history I should never believe or trust you again. Even recent history.
So, please stop pushing...and let me slowly accept the changes you talk about.

H - ok

Me - Oh, btw, when I asked for specifics, I wasn't asking what you will be doing if I returned. You said those weren't the only changes. I was asking what other changes (presently) have you made that I am unaware of?

I don't know what to tell you about the things that I want b/c I don't want them from you. At least not at this point. I don't know if I can recover. I have forgiven you, yes, but I have not forgotten nor have I healed.

H - Well I am sorry you dont want them from me, I wish you did, I wish you could just love me, the way you talk you moved out and it stopped, and now its this big ordeal to get it back, yes I hurt you, but can you not even see a future with us, for you you always say too late, I hate that all it does is cause me more hurt and pain, but you talk about me not caring, It is not too late or ok maybe in your mind but you know what you set that up or you let somebody else tell you it was too late, I have never seen it that way, You need time but you dont know, its been 8 months, but I know I just want miracles, no I just want to have a happy marriage with my wife, you. You just make this so hard on me I want a buch of stuff just not from you cause your a [censored] head, well thank you. I still love you and want to be with you and I can only hope that you can stop this hurt and start working on us. I have to go so I can let the dogs out, goodnight, and I love you.

That was it. The end. he signed off. Is it just me looking at this negatively? But all I see is a lot of words - he wants to do this and that, but what is he doing to get there? He tells me he gets it; that he understands what I need, but he doesn't really get it. Does he?

M

M -
What you're seeing here is a H in full pursuit mode, with predictable results. He is alienating you even more with the pressure and his continued desire to continue talking about the R.

We have all been there, probably every guy on this BB spent the first weeks, months pursuing his W full speed. Then they found DR and this BB and figured out that they were doing the wrong things.

Your H hasn't gotten this message yet and maybe doesn't have the tools he needs to so he can figure it out. The amazing thing is how predictable human nature is, on both sides.Did you give him DR? Might be useful for him.

I guess you can take some solace in the fact that this is pretty common dynamic. He is just human after all.

I do admire you for your committment to working on this. I keep learning from reading your posts - feel almost guilty like I am looking into my W's head!

D

Gene,

I know what I posted was a lot. So thank you and whomeer else reads and offers advice/suggestions to help me out. I thought it would be good to see how we communicate. H is very good at being vague. He was a Political Science major when I met him afterall.

He is great at saying what I need to hear, but not so good at "doing" anything.

Here are the 6 statements of Forgiveness I promised -
1) I forgive ________(person's name) for __________ (name the offense).

2) I admit that _________ (name the offense) was wrong.

3) I do not expect __________ (person's name) to make up for what he or she has done.

4) I will not use ___________ (name the offense) to define who __________ (person's name) is.

5) I will not manipulate ________ (person's name) with this offense.

6) I will not allow __________ (name the offense) to stop my personal growth.

The book says -"We get hurt by individual acts done by others... We must identify these acts and characteristics specifically if we are to get out from under their influence. ...we will define an adversary as the person who ruined my life. As you do this, you give that person (power). When it comes to forgiving yourself (step 4) is vital."

What I did was write up a list of things I needed to forgive. Then I started with the easier ones. It took me several monthss to complete for each item. Basically I wrote what the specific action was and then each of the 6 statements. After I was all done, I burned the list and all my writing freeing myself and others of those hurtful acts. It felt great...the burning ink & paper smelled bad, but it was good to finally let it go!

M

M,

I've been reading your thread for a while. I congratulate you for having the strength of your commitment to work on your M instead of tossing it and H aside.

Does he understand? Maybe. From what I've read, though, it seems like understanding and knowing the right words are not his problems. His problem seems to be complacency. In his mind when things seem to be better, the need to work at making them good is gone. So, maybe he does understand what you need to get back together, but he doesn't understand the needs you have to meet for each other if you will be able to stay together.

DinWa's perfectly correct about how we pursue a WAW, too. Of course, sometimes even ending the pursuit is not enough. For guys who were distant (in my W's words I was "not engaged"), dropping pursuit while showing 180s is a very fine line to walk.

Did you ever decide if you would give H DB or DR to read or not? I know when I read the story in DR about the guy who used Hallmark and FTD to drive his uncertain wife away, I quit the heavy pursuit immediately.

Like the other guys said, thanks for showing us things from the WAW POV. I hope that you will be able to be the WBW. (I hope my W will walk back some day, too!)

Thanks,

K

D,

I have not given him DR, yet. I am still reading the only copy I could find (which was DB). I hope to have it finished by Saturday and give it to him then.

Unfortunately, I am not finding much solace in knowing we are predictable. That's why I am asking for change. The bad thing is that I was trying to direct him w/o specifically telling him about this site. Last night, I asked if he had searched for marriage saving websites or anything on divorce. He said no. He said he only read the R articles that scrolled across his home page. Where's the effort?

LOL!! Don't feel guilty. I like helping others; even if it is at my own misery!

It's cold and rainy here tonight. Which is why I am being lazy. Darts was cancelled b/c the other team dropped out. So I am ordering pizza, watching the tube and reading DB. No work out tonight. Bad girl!

M

M,

I still don't know what to say. It sounds like he still does not get it. It sounds like he is blaming you for you leaving. This is going to be a tough nut to crack. Sounds like Dbing to the max. Only thing I can think of is try turning the tables a little. Treat him like he treated you. Or maybe just give a few situations, and tell him a friend treated her H like he treats you (leaving that part out). It is all hypothetical. Go on for a few examples. Hell, use one of us here, and how we treated our W. Hopefully he will see that what we have done in the past has really hurt our W, and that is why our M is on the rocks so badly. If that gets through to him, point out that is the kind of hurt that you have experienced, and it hurts even more that he either refuses to acknowledge it, or if he does not see it, he refuses to find out what he has done to hurt you. Get him a copy of The Anger Trap, and tell him not to call until he has finished the book (just a thought). If all that does not work, then I would say to go dark for a little while.

Thanks for everything. I agree with you - he still doesn't "get it" as much as he tells me he does. Maybe I will copy your sitch and e-mail to him. See what kind of response I get. What do you think?

M

M -
BTW - On your "should I go dark" question. I was thinking about that last night. I don't know that I would go dark, but I think you should hold off on the dates w/H. If he is not getting the clue, your agreeing to spend time with him is probably reinforcing the wrong behavior. It gives him hope that things are tracking the right way when it does not sound like they are in your mind. I suggest holding off until he starts working at it.

D

Hopeful,

I may finally have something to say about your H that may help you a little. You have helped me so much, and finally I can MAYBE do some in return. Since he seems to have some of the same problems I keep encoutering. It sounds like alot of this is coming from his anger. BTW, I get alot of this from reading The Anger Trap. I am finally almost done with the book. If you get a chance after your 4 other books, it might give you some insight into his thinking. As I talk about this, some may pertain directly to your H, and others may not.

I can never admit I am wrong. I am deathly afraid of anyone ever seeing that I made a mistake, especially those who are closest to me. I feel unworthy and inferior if I am wrong in their eyes. They are looking down on me. Therefore, I push very hard to move above them, I push them down. This can be done with destroying their argument by seeing a small chink in what they say, and exploiting it to prove that I am right no matter what. Mostly, my W will just agree just to get me to shut up. After a while, she does not want to do that anymore, and the arguments get more heated. As we get closer to proving me wrong, I get meaner with my side. I begin to bring her into the argument personally. As she stands up for herself more, I begin to try to control what all is happening in my own little world. I push my views and my way of doing things on her and the kids. They all begin to rebel, and it is a downhill skid from there. I did not even realize what I was doing. Finally, W is just tired of the whole thing, and pushed me out the door. No more walking on eggshells to see what I was going to try to control next. It was whatever I wanted and when I wanted it. I made it all about me, instead of making it about my W and my kids. They are what is important to me, so now I am trying to make changes. I have snapped at my daughter a couple of times this weekend for absolutely no reason. She was asking me about a crown she got a birthday party and where it came from. I told her I don't know, and she kept asking. I yelled a little, not a lot, but it brought tears. I realize what I am doing now, so I stopped the truck and tried to explain to her where I was coming from, but that I did not act right. If she wanted to solve her query of where they came from, we could call the birthday girls Mom and ask. A slip, and maybe a little progress.

Your H needs to get over himself. He is not the center of the universe, so stop acting like it. He needs to address your requests with respect, even if he does not agree with your perspective. He needs to show you that he values what you are saying. He needs to admit when he is wrong. I used to admit I was wrong, and it was actually almost a religious experience in that it was so uplifting to get that monkey off my back. I backslid and did not realize it. He needs to be humble. Actually, I need to do all these things as well.

I also have this problem with living more in my fantasy land (or dream land) than in reality. I have a stock that I thought would have me retired by now. It wrecks my whole day to know I HAVE to get up to go to work. I probably would still work, but I would not have to. That put me in a foul mood, and of course, sometimes still does. I get home, and my W would be challenging to show that I was wrong about something, legitimatelly. Well, in my fantasy land, my perfect S would never do something like that, so when I get mean, I would tell her sometimes that I am leaving. Hell, I could find someone better. But in reality, there is always going to be conflict where I will be proved wrong. I will never find that fantasy perfect S. My W is perfect for me. We have so much in common, and those things that are not in common, we have always (until recently) talked about those so well. I see your H a little in fantasy land in that he will go buy what he wants, consequences be damned.

Another way I see a little of your H in my actions is that I can play the victim so well. "I am only lashing out because YOU hurt me." Well, I did not always take into account that I hurt my W first. I did not treat her with love and respect, so it hurt me when she did the same in return.

I may be off base on your H with some of these, but I am sure that some are right on. It is very difficult for someone like me to admit that what I was doing was so wrong. I see what I was doing now. Now, I am trying to correct those abusive behaviors. It is hard, as referenced above where I yelled at my daughter, but it has to be done. I already see my daughter acting up less. She is much more affectionate to me with hugs and "I love you, Daddy." It melts my heart and makes me want to work even harder. I just wish my W would see. But, these are the things I realize right now. There may be more I don't even know. I am not totally sure how to fix the above. Very humbling.

I hope that gives a little perspective maybe from your H's side. He has to get it before it can change. You can apply DBing to make some slight changes in him, but he has to make those big changes himself. He has to realize first thing. Going dark would be a hard choice, and I do applaud you for wanting to keep trying under these trying times. I hope you had some fun last night.