This will be my first post here. I've read a good bit of the posts on here and have seen so much great information that I'm hoping I'll get a few peoples thoughts on my situation. First off, its been hard to get any real advice from anyone because I'm 25 and my wife is 22 and all of our friends are too young to really know anything.
We had dated for 2 years before marriage and have been married now just under 2 years. Things were awesome before we got married and literally the honeymoon is where things started to go wrong. I won't labor on with a crazy long post, so to summarize:
We were both raised Christian's and I've become anti-theist about a year after getting married, but DW didn't know this until recently. Trouble's did start at the get go, going from a great dating relationship to a sexless marriage. While dating we were physical several times a week with long make out sessions, things were great! For some reason though, getting married ruined the physical side of things. We have consistently ML once or twice a month. I would be fine with this 25 years into a marriage, but as young folks this should not be, and I am a HD person for sure.
Bottom line:
She has admitted to putting up an emotional block soon after marriage because she found out that I occasionally took care of myself looking at stuff online. As soon as she found out she just couldn't get over it and couldn't forgive me. This is the underlying issue that we've tried to sweep under the rug, but the sex life has been not there because of it. She hardly see's any joy in ML anyway. She can only orgasm with the use of a toy, she never masturbates. I really feel she would do just fine with no sex ever. Every time it feels like a quicky with her. I'm used to great sex in past relationships which makes this even harder. I also love to be touched and to be affectionate throughout the day, but she does not fulfill these needs at all hardly.
We got into the biggest fight the other night and agreed that there is no hope and we need to divorce, but now we seem to not want to go through with it for sure because regardless of the sex, everything else in our life is great and we are best friends.
My personal opinion would be that it would take years of counseling and working on it for her to not feel so ashamed of sex (even though she won't admit to that) and maybe she will never fall in love with sex. And I don't know if one day she will just decide she cannot be with a non believer. I'm torn because in all other ways I think she's an amazing person, but sexually and physically I've been left in the cold and longing for more. I also just feel I shouldn't have to deal with years of working on it just for the *possibility* of it getting better.
I've tried to read a bunch of stuff online about getting the spouse into things. I've done just about all I can to be romantic for her, but she doesn't much care for romance. She hates flowers and candy to give you a clue about how she is. I'll try for a week really hard to just be laid back and do extra around the house and pamper her and take her to her favorite restaurants and to the park like she loves to do and I'll try to be extra affectionate like she asks. Then out of no where someday she just drop her pants and offer it up, then its over in half an hour after i'm sure she's fullfilled and she just hops off to the bathroom, no time to cuddle or anything. I miss the all day sexathon's from previous partners...
Should I stay or should I go? Its hard. Lose my best friend and an awesome person just because I want more sex? (and if i just please myself then it rips her apart emotionally).
Also, at one point I thought maybe stress could have been blocking her, so I made it so she didnt have to work at all and I cut back on work to spend even more time at home to the point of being able to be home with each other most of the time. She's been the same with or without a job, with or without taking class's and hobbies, and with more and more time with her family and her friends its always been the same.
Sk8life,
I am sorry you find yourself here. I can save you to angst and tell you that trying to "get your wife into sex" is a hopeless journey the way you're going about it. Also, the reasons she is giving for not being sexual with you may or may not be accurate. It's quite likely they are just excuses, so focusing on them really won't change anything.
The thing is, your wife can't *make* herself *want* to have sex with you. She can agree to do it, but she can't agree to want it, that's not something she can control. If she wants to be more sexual, or things there is something wrong with how she is, then she can work on it for herself, but unfortunately you can't make her work on her sexuality, and trying to do so makes things worse.
So what can you do? First, consider not having children until you two are in the best possible place. Do not think that having kids will make things better between you, it will in fact make things much more complicated.
The only other thing you can do is work on yourself. Recognized that your pursuing behavior is making things worse and stop doing it. Catering to her will make her less likely to want to have sex. A few books to consider reading for you:
1) The Sex-Starved Marriage
2) The Passion Trap -> You may want to start here
3) The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 -> Take it with a grain of salt IMO, but still some good stuff in there.
I feel for you, I'm in a similar situation many years down the line with 3 kids. My W actually would have done me a favor if she acted like this before we had kids because it would have been much easier to move on.
Accuray
I'm pretty big on Accuray's #3 recommendation.
That being said I agree with what he said, quit working on her and start working on you. Become much more marketable in today's dating market, I'm not saying to go out and cheat, but let her understand that you are valueble and if she keeps it up she could lose you.
As for the porn thing, could just be an excuse. As you said though, she's very religious so she may have very strong views on it. Realize that this may never change. Can you live with that?
There's two ways of looking at it:
1. She feels inadequate compared to porn stars.
2. By resorting to porn you are telling her subconcious that you are not a high value male, because only losers resort to porn.
Overall she probably lumps porn viewers with mass murderers in the evil sin scale.
IMHO there is probably close to nothing you can do about that.
What you can do though is project to her other positive qualities so strongly that the porn viewing is dwarfed or over looked compared to your sheer awesomeness. It's not going to be easy, but I see it more likely than getting her to change her views on porn.
Married man sex life has some really good advice on how to do that. Think of it as additional reading for phase 1 of SSM.
One last thing. I'm 28 I started on this board a little less than a year ago. I'm going to tell you what has been told to me time and time again.
You are young and have no kids, a divorce is not that devastating to you in the big scheme of things. You sure you want to prolong what will most likely be an uphill battle?
She may have a real problem with porn, but it may also be a convenient excuse not to have sex with you. If that never came up it is probably likely something else would have. I would just ignore the porn complaints, out of respect for her do a better job keeping it hidden, but do what you need to do. If she is 100% meeting your needs then give it up. The fact that you're drawn to porn may indicate that she's pretty far off the mark.
Accuray
"1. She feels inadequate compared to porn stars.
2. By resorting to porn you are telling her subconcious that you are not a high value male, because only losers resort to porn. "
That's a ridiculous way of looking at it. IMO. Ask most women and they feel that they don't like porn because it degrades women. They feel like the actors are skanks and yet you choose that over them.
Your W was only 20 when the two of you married. This probably weighs on her that you don't see her as good enough for you.
First off, why have you become anti-religion? It obviously means something to her. I don't think you realize how much your post is all about you and your needs. It's probably from immaturity, but you make alot of it about what you need and what turns you on.
"She hardly see's any joy in ML anyway."
How do you know? She probably finds joy in it but in a different way. You're probably comparing her to the stuff you see in porn videos which NEVER happens in real life.
"but as young folks this should not be,"
This is your expectation. How often did you do it before she caught you with the porn?
If you know that her faith is important to he, suck it up and get some Christian counseling. Start making it about her for a change and not the fact that you're not getting enough action from her.
I'm pretty agnostic, so my take is a little skewed.
We could spend a few pages arguing over what specifically about porn bothers a lot of women.
What I'm thinking though is that you two probably view the world through a different lense. There are plenty of women that don't mind occassional porn viewing, and some even enjoy it.
The way you describe it she sounds like the type that expects you to go to some sort of Christian porn addiction camp. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life?
IMHO she probably carries some serious hang ups about sex. She also shows a strong willingness to deny you sex at the smallest of provocations. It's porn now, it may be you forgetting to take out the thrash in the future.
You need to decide how important sex is to you, and what would you do to be in a relationship where your needs are met.
About your statement: "I would be fine with this 25 years into a marriage, but as young folks this should not be, and I am a HD person for sure."
How the heck do you know that? When I was newly married I beleived all that stuff too, that my sex drive would diminish and my wife's would pick up towards middle age, like all those useless sex-advice books say. Didn't happen. I'm just as horny now as I was when I got married 30 years ago, and my wife's drive plummeted to exactly zero about a decade ago.
My wife seemed very interested in sex when we first met. So the moral of the story here is that you can't extrapolate from early experiences. People change, and often not in the "standard" way. Sure, you could leave your wife and find another woman who is crazy about sex, only to find her drive go to zero after her second childbirth, etc. East stage of life is a new situation.
I agree with ssmguy. You have ideas on what you believe married life sex should be. Never happens that way.
Take greenblue's advice with a grain of salt. Your W does not want you to go to some Christian porn thing (if that exists).
She has some emotional needs that need to be met in order for her to be passionate about you. It could be that the porn was like a breach of trust for her. Many women see porn like another woman.
That's why rather than guessing, I would see an MC. If she feels more comfortable talking to a Christian MC or pastor, then so be it. After all you want to get to the bottom of this right? You care enough for her that you want to see that her needs are met too right?
Wait so because he doesn't know how his next partner may be he needs to just accept misery?
Look I'm not saying to go draft divorce papers this very instant. Heck one year later I'm still fighting for my marriage making steady progress, but still fighting.
I just want you to find your personal limit. In the next few months you will most likely embark on a journey to fix yourself and fix the flaws you see in your marriage. Your W may or may not join. You have to be prepared to either A. Accept a sexless marriage, or B. move on.
Look it's ok to seek a divorce because your needs are not met. Like SSM says you are a man, so much of your personal image depends on feeling sexually desirable. Your W needs to understand that by denying you and doing nothing to address it she is playing with fire.
As a side bar, yes they do have them. In a lot of Christian circles viewing pornography is viewed as a grievous sin, and viewing it once or twice a month is an addiction.
Despite you not believing I do agree in talking to the priest of the church she attends. See what his take is on it. He may be pretty kink friendly. I've seen a lot of priests who treat sex as the most wonderful thing in the world provided it is between a married couple. I've seen others who act like even mentioning sex in public is a sin.
I meant to write; yes they do have porn addiction camps.
"Wait so because he doesn't know how his next partner may be he needs to just accept misery?"
No we're saying that he should try and work on his M because there is no guarantee that his next R will be picture perfect either based off of his expectations.
It's why so many second, third, etc. marriages fail. They're all looking for the thing that will meet their expectations and only their expectations.
And besides, 1) they haven't been married that long, 2) She was very young when she married. The marriage isn't doomed. You need to stop thinking that it is.
I don't know I think sex frequency and intensity is pretty important.
I'm not of the type that believes that telling the HD that he may have to adjust his expectations in order to remain married.
Sex can be a non negotiable for both the LD and the HD, each wanting a different outcome, both stubbornly holding on to themselves. The LD usually wins out when there's a stalemate. If she doesn't want to change, she never will. It's the harsh truth.
Only the individual can answer how much they're willing to give up to get the sex they need. The poster is 25 maybe he can handle the idea of not having sex for the rest 50 years. To me at 28 it's unfathomable.
I'm sure his wife is very special to him, mine is to me. Yet they are both in their sexual prime, things should not be stalling right now. I'm not against him trying everything possible, I just want him to think if he has a limit and when he will reach it.
What happens when he has read every book, tried every philosophy, and done every technique, and his wife still resents him?
Most importantly what is his wife's motivation to change? He doesn't have to drop an ultimatum, but knowing what you want and how far you are willing to go to get it will take you a long way.
An old poster from here who fixed his SSM told his wife:
"a year from now I WILL be in the type of relationship I want to be in"
The fact he was resolute yet non confrontational was what got the ball rolling for him. The most important thing though was that he would not compromise himself.
That is an ultimatum and he had to be ready to walk to make that statement.
Accuray
An ultimatum is indeed useless without the willingness to back it up. That's why I suggested he try to find what his limit is.
I also think the average LDer needs a good reason to want to reconsider their lifestyle. If I remember right SSM points out to the LD that that a sexless marriage makes it more vulnerable to affairs and break ups. Sounds like an implied threat to me.
In MMSL you run the map with the hopes that your W will be drawn to you, but Athol does not deny the fact that running the map to its very end may lead to divorce. Of course in this philosophy the goal is to become so desirable to women, that your wife (who is also a woman) desires you to. At the very least she'll realize how easily she can lose you and protect her turf by meeting your needs.
By all means seek therapy, and counseling, but eventually his wife will have to decide if her anger and self righteous indignation over her husbands occasional porn viewing (or whatever other excuse she'll throw at him) is worth risking the marriage.
sk8life and his wife should find a good marriage counselor or sex therapist, and the sooner the better. I think she needs to hear from an independent "authority" that some of her attitudes about male sexuality are unrealistic and that she has no reason to feel threatened. With her current attitudes, she's going to have sexual problems with most men she might meet even if she splits up with sk8life.
Basically, there shouldn't even be any suggestion on this thread of splitting up until these people have tried some kind of counseling or sex therapy. That's the whole philosophy of this forum.
Greenblue90, "They are both in their sexual prime and things should not be stalling right now"?? You seem to be implying that it's more acceptable to have things stall if you're in a long-term marriage. ;-)
And what happens when he has read every book, etc., and his wife still resents him? Maybe it's not him that she resents. Maybe it's not him that's the problem. When sex therapists report that the most common sexual problem reported by women is LD, why do we so often assume it's because of her resentment of her husband? Think of how silly it sounds when you turn the problem around -- if a guy has ED, it's probably due to resentment of his wife and she should stop doing things that make him angry?!! I can just hear a crowd of women howling!
The whole ultimatum thing stinks in my opinion. Been there done that. I suppose it can result in positive attitude changes for some women. But speaking personally, the last thing I want is a woman who's going through the motions of sex for fear of losing me.
Agreed ssmguy,
We seem to have lost sk8life. Reading MMSLP, he projects 3 outcomes (1) your W becomes truly more attracted to you and therefore boosts her sex drive (2) she meets your needs from a defensive position to keep you, or (3) you leave but are now more attractive and can find someone who will be willing to meet your needs.
Like you, I do not see scenario #2 as a win. That's more or less where I am now sexually. People are experts at figuring out how to do the minimum, and that's what #2 leads to -- the LD partner figuring out how to deliver "just enough" to keep you, going through the motions, etc.
I think it's debateable if #1 is a reasonable outcome, to your point it pre-supposes that the cause of LD was the HD partner not being attractive enough, where attraction is defined as not only being in shape, dressing well, but also having the proper mix of alpha and beta traits. If that really wasn't the issue, then the author of MMSLP suggests it's time to move on.
So if I boil it down, #1 is a great outcome if it works, #2 requires acceptance of your lot and is not really a win, and #3 is effectively giving up on your marriage. The only inconsistency I see is that the author tends to imply that #2 is a win, when I think we believe it is not.
Accuray