If you haven't read my sitch, the short story is that my W had a couple EA's that were headed toward physical and dropped the bomb, asking for divorce. I was able to DB pretty effectively and have been piecing for some time.
We've been stuck in a dynamic where I would like more from the marriage, but my W would just like to be accepted for what she's willing to bring and to be asked for no more.
My W feels she has a very unhappy part of her personality that she has accepted and is not willing to work on. She tends to feel inadequate, and views any request that I might make as a veiled complaint. She believes that she disappoints me and makes me sad, and that makes her sad.
For my part, I really want this to work! I do love my W, we have a great life together outside of our current difficulties, and a great family with 3 kids. I'm very attracted to her and like spending time with her.
If I could wave a magic wand, I would like her to address her unhappiness and self-esteem issues, and work on getting to a happier place for herself. I would also like her to get more comfortable sexually, and to find a way to enjoy having sex for herself, to find a way to let herself be pleased. I would also like her to be honest about what she wants from the relationship and what she needs from me, so that I understand her expectations and know the landscape.
Selfishly, I would like to feel needed and wanted. I would like to feel that she's chosen to stay in the marriage because she enjoys being with me versus liking the "package" I represent (lifestyle, intact family, finances, etc.) I don't want to be the path of least resistance, or for her to secretly feel she'd be happier with someone else.
I met individually with my MC today and oddly enough he was encouraging me to consider ending the marriage. He said that I'm willing to do the work, I'm willing to put things on the table and deal with them. He said that W has taken a critical self-healing mechanism off the table -- she's not willing to change or work on the marriage, she just wants to be accepted as she is and for what she's bringing.
He said that if she's not meeting what I need to receive, and is telling me plainly that she's not willing to work on it, then I should seriously consider leaving.
We have a joint appt next Monday night. I'm really not sure how I should think about this latest advice or what direction I should take the MC session in. The advice was unexpected, and I really don't know what to think.
The MC suggested that I come up with a "contract" that specifies what needs to happen in the marriage for me to be happy. He said that if we accept that W will not change sexually, will not give me "words of affirmation" and otherwise will not work on improving things, what *can* she do to allow me to accept the situation and stay.
I've been feeling lately that W is "assigning" unhappiness to me when I don't feel unhappy. I don't believe that I am now, or have historically walked around complaining or presenting a list of demands. Most of my recent angst has been an inner dialog and on this board. My W tends to tell me that I'm feeling unhappy, then not accept it when I tell her I'm not, or that it doesn't have to do with her. I guess one item for the contract would be that she needs to stop looking for dissatisfaction and instead focus on happiness.
Thoughts? I'm pretty shaken up.
Accuray
Have you considered that the MC is just trying to shake things up too?
Kind of RISKY but it might be what is needed to bring your wife into her 50% of the marriage.
I have seen some of your sich but have not read every post, MC only works when both parties are committed to making the marriage work.
Right now it seems to me only you are committed to it.
Your wife is in lala land somewhere, so what the MC is suggesting is that he/she can not do their job unless she commits to take some action for herself.
FWIW I went to six months worth of MC/IC that my wife used to validate her desire to divorce.
As far as your marriage being over, you need to LET GO, however it is only really over when YOU decide, not anyone else.
I am assuming that you have read the MLC resources. Your sich sounds very familiar.
Hope that helps.
Thanks Cadet,
I was with MC one-on-one and I don't think he was trying to "game" me.
He also said that the sentiment "you have to be responsible for your own happiness" is fiction. He said that the relationship has such a significant impact on the individual that to imply that one partner is in no way responsible for the other's happiness is wishful thinking.
Right now it seems to me only you are committed to it.
The interesting thing is that what my W says and what she does are two different things. It's not fair to say that she's not committed. She just wants her level of commitment to be enough.
It's more like "I'll do A, B, and C, but if you also want D and E, I'm not going to do that. I need you to accept the fact that A, B and C are all I will give and that needs to be enough"
MC's point is that if D and E are on my critical list, and W says they are off the table, then I should consider ending the relationship, because W has closed the door on them and said she's not even willing to consider working on those things.
(I used letters on purpose, because otherwise people get hung up on "why do you need D & E" -- just assume those are not unreasonable expectations of marriage. I reviewed that at length with more than one IC/MC.
I am assuming that you have read the MLC resources. Your sich sounds very familiar.
It sounds like I'm having the MLC, or W is, or both?
Thanks Cadet!
The interesting thing is that what my W says and what she does are two different things.
So her actions do not match her words.
Is she confused?
MC's point is that if D and E are on my critical list, and W says they are off the table, then I should consider ending the relationship, because W has closed the door on them and said she's not even willing to consider working on those things.
My point would be that she is not interested at this time.
Has it been that way from day 1 of your relationship?
I am assuming that you have read the MLC resources. Your sich sounds very familiar.
It sounds like I'm having the MLC, or W is, or both?
No not YOU, but maybe your wife.
The Captain is with the Cadet on this...it sounds like your wife is rolling through the MLC. However, her actions and their effects on you can trigger your own MLC.
I think you've summarized your situation quite nicely. Put another way she wants you to accept her (and her limitations) she just doesn't want to reciprocate.
The Captain
The Captain is with the Cadet on this...
The Captain
HIJACK
I used to be a CAPTAIN after I was a CADET.
LOL
Sorry I couldn't resist
now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Levity is always welcomed!
Captain, she says she does accept me -- she accepts that I will want more and will be dissatisfied.
Her latest catch phrase is "that's our dynamic -- I don't do the things that make you happy so you feel badly, then I feel badly -- I've accepted that"
I discussed that with MC and he said that's absolutely not sustainable.
So her actions do not match her words. Is she confused?
She doesn't think she's confused, she doesn't see her own contradictions. I haven't been letting her get away with that lately. When she makes statements like "I need very little", I point out that she makes it very clear when she's not getting what she needs, and she in fact needs quite a bit.
She really things she has everything completely figured out, and she's very stubborn. Once she makes up her mind that she understands something, she starts to "live it" if you will, or at least convince herself she's living it. Pointing out the contradictions usually doesn't get any response.
My point would be that she is not interested at this time. Has it been that way from day 1 of your relationship?
I wish that had a simple answer! When I got married I was 15 years younger. What I wanted at the time was someone who was not going to be codependent, need my validation, or rely upon me to make her happy. I was looking for someone independent, who wanted to share their life with me, would enjoy being with me, but if we each decided to do our own thing, that would be OK too. One of the big attractions to my W was that initially we shared many interests that were important to me, including biking, skating, skiing, swimming, etc.
Over time W disengaged from all the shared interests we had when we got married. When things were at their worst I was convinced that the only interests she had were watching TV, talking on the phone, and shopping, because she didn't do anything else. I continued to pursue my interests, because I believed our marriage contract was that "we'll do things together we enjoy and pursue them separately if we don't".
I learned that W wasn't as independent or as self-actualized as she represented. A lot of it was a front born of pride and stubbornness, but deep down she felt rejected by the fact that I continued to pursue my interests without her, instead of choosing to stay home and watch TV with her or talk to her. She never told me that, she just bottled it up and tried to be a dutiful wife until she blew up.
So now it's on the table -- the marriage contract I thought we were signing up for originally is now null and void. We now have a new marriage contract. The new contract says that we're more connected, more engaged, and spend more time together.
OK, I can do that, I can dispense with hobbies and sports, and I can take joy from our marriage. Let's do it! This will be great. To me, here's what a more connected marriage looks like... But she doesn't want to do her part in that -- she seems to want the old distance on her part, but the engagement on my part, and those two desires are at odds, which is creating our current tension.
So did she ever do the things I'm looking for now? No, but I wasn't looking for them, and the things I'm now being asked for are completely different.
After the bomb, this has literally been a "reset button push" and the landscape is being redefined, so her historic behavior (or mine), while it may provide insight into her capacities, from my perspective is no longer the rule.
Accuray
Captain, she says she does accept me -- she accepts that I will want more and will be dissatisfied.
Her latest catch phrase is "that's our dynamic -- I don't do the things that make you happy so you feel badly, then I feel badly -- I've accepted that"
It's time to call "BS" on that. She hasn't acceoted you or your needs or your wants at all. She's accepted her {limited} interpretation and the limits she imposes upon you (and her limitations that she holds onto "stubbornly") as if that was "acceptance."
IT ISN'T!!!The Captain
Provided she isn't going to work on herself, what would acceptance of me look like?
She doesn't think she's confused, she doesn't see her own contradictions. I haven't been letting her get away with that lately. When she makes statements like "I need very little", I point out that she makes it very clear when she's not getting what she needs, and she in fact needs quite a bit.
Well if you make the presumption that she is still in crisis then - of course she will not admit to being wrong.
More likely it is all YOUR fault.
And while I am sure that you are not perfect(no one is), she needs to have at least 50% of the blame as well as you having 50%.
I think that is why the counselor is saying that this is not sustainable.
Now I do not agree with the counselor that you should terminate the marriage.
Set enforceable boundaries and live with those.
When things were at their worst I was convinced that the only interests she had were watching TV, talking on the phone, and shopping, because she didn't do anything else.
These sound like depression characteristics to me. Again perfectly normal for a MLC.
Accuray maybe what I am trying to say is their might not be anything you can DO that is going to FIX this.
Until she wants to be part of the marriage you are in limbo.
Contracts, talks, agreements are all just words.
Actions need to match the words.
She must want to get better before she will.
When the PAIN of changing is less than the PAIN of staying the same then you will see movement.
Not until then.
After the bomb, this has literally been a "reset button push" and the landscape is being redefined, so her historic behavior (or mine), while it may provide insight into her capacities, from my perspective is no longer the rule.
You will need to build a new marriage, the old one was destroyed by the bomb, don't try to go back to the old one.
It is gone.
Yes exactly, I don't want the old one back. If you have time read what I wrote this afternoon on Crazyville's thread on Newcomers. If you read my "new job" analogy, that's what I'm looking for.
MC agrees there may be nothing I can DO to FIX this, that's why he says to consider leaving it. He doesn't think "stay and suffer" is a good choice.
WRT your statement, she's proven that when the PAIN of staying is more than the PAIN of changing, she leaves.
Accuray
Accuray
Her "leaving" is at worst an ill conceived escape plan, at best a trick to get her way.
If she truly wanted to leave she would have done so already. Instead she values the comfort and FRIENDSHIP you provide. So she is back, but she is back on her terms.
She then says that her actions make you unhappy, and that makes her unhappy. So does she change her actions? No, she expects you to start being happy with them, so she can be happy too. Happy wives don't leave right?
I think your counselor is spot on, under the current circumstances she has no incentive to change. Furthermore she knows you will put up with a lot to keep her, so, she plays the leaving card to get you to back off.
If you have time read what I wrote this afternoon on Crazyville's thread on Newcomers.
You may have read this before but LD/HD is a form of pursuit and distance,
which is also similar to what MWD writes about too in DB/DR.
Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209The basics behind this article are in a great relationship book called
THE SOLO PARTNER, the last chapter provides the meat and potatoes of pursuit and distance.
I think you see this in what you describe about your parents.
All this is fine however my belief is that you did not break your marriage so you will not be able to FIX it either.
As far as INVESTing in your job/marriage.
Invest in YOU, then you are guaranteed to be happy.
You can CONTROL you and everything YOU do.
You can not CONTROL your W, so don't!
Let me restate, I am against DIVORCE.
But you must LET YOUR WIFE GO.
This is counterintuitive, but that is what DB is all about.
I am not sure STAY and SUFFER is a great choice but why must you leave to be happy.
What about stay and THRIVE?
Do you need her to make you HAPPY?
Thanks Cadet,
When we live together and have 3 kids, what does "let her go" look like?
My wife certainly has the capacity to remove the happiness that I'm able to attain, if I believe that my behavior is hurting her.
It's that removal of happiness that has been the issue, versus needing her to make me happy. That said, MC says that we are of course responsible for each others happiness to some degree in a marriage -- to suggest otherwise is a good philosophy but doesn't hold up in practice.
Accuray
When we live together and have 3 kids, what does "let her go" look like?
I am not in YOUR house so it is difficult for me to say, however I know that it can be done successfully and marriages can be restored.
My wife certainly has the capacity to remove the happiness that I'm able to attain, if I believe that my behavior is hurting her.
Maybe it is walking away from these sichs and not letting her have the CONTROL to take away YOUR happiness.
Living together during this time is not easy, I am very aware of this.
I would say that DB'ing is esssential.
You have the tools it is a question of using them and patience.
EXTREME patience.
Is there anything that you can DO differently to give her more space?
When I give her more space, she gets upset. I actually went for several weeks of not having sex or being physical beyond hugging -- I actually felt quite good during that period, while my W got increasingly upset about it. In the end she got really upset and said I was depriving her of the opportunity to make me happy.
When I give space, she thinks something is wrong and gets very anxious. I'm ready to give space, I've had thoughts of moving out lately.
On the other hand, I second guess myself. It's not like she's not trying at all -- she's not cold or unpleasant, she's just not engaged to the degree that I am and that bothers me.
I appreciate your help Cadet, my sitch is difficult but I realize could be much worse. When I give space she feels like I'm punishing her -- even if I'm happy and upbeat while doing so.
A lot of DB applies when you have a WAS -- I think the rules for piecing are different and there is no book for that. A sequel is called for.
Accuray
When I give her more space, she gets upset. I actually went for several weeks of not having sex or being physical beyond hugging -- I actually felt quite good during that period, while my W got increasingly upset about it. In the end she got really upset and said I was depriving her of the opportunity to make me happy.
Of course she gets upset because she then has lost CONTROL of YOU.
So her reaction is childish. Again I will refer you to the MLC resources and the pursuit and distance article.
You will continue to CYCLE in this manner until something breaks this.
Her reaction also tells me that she is depressed and a control person. You on the other hand are the opposite of her and let her control YOU.
Not really sure you are peicing at this point in time since she is not all in on that.
She will more than likely not recommit to your marriage at this point because she is still in crisis.
She does not want to lose CONTROL.
So my question is why? for both you and her?
Just think about that no words to her will help.
Cadet,
I read the MLC resources you posted -- thanks for that. There is no ebook version of "The Solo Partner" so I ordered "The Passion Trap" which is supposed to have the same theme, but to be more gender neutral.
I started pulling back when I got home last night. I've already gotten 2 "is everything alright?" and one "is something wrong?" so far this morning, and it's only been 5 hours. So far I've just been deflecting those by talking about trivial stuff I'm working on / thinking about.
She will more than likely not recommit to your marriage at this point because she is still in crisis.
She does not want to lose CONTROL.
She never really sought to control me, at one point she just wanted me gone.
So my question is why? for both you and her?
Just think about that no words to her will help
You lost me there -- I don't know what the question is in reference too, and I don't understand your last sentence.
Thanks! Feels good to have something new to work on.
Accuray
Found another MLC resource on a separate MLC web forum. W definitely doesn't have what they are characterizing as "monster" behavior. I think I'm going to have to tread carefully here -- if I detach and "let her go" and she really is in piecing and not in crisis, then that could be a very bad move.
Some of what Cadet and these resources say seem to apply, but some do not. I'll see what the MC says tomorrow night and take is slow. I'll continue running the MAP, and will read these books cover to cover before I conclude anything.
I may have painted an inaccurate picture of W, or you guys are comparing her to someone you know and filling in the gaps inappropriately. She's not pulling away, she's not mean or controlling, she's not asking me to do anything, and she's willing to engage and seems to enjoy connecting. It's a matter of degree.
This could have as much to do with me healing from infidelity as W going through a continued MLC. If it's the former, and I try to treat the latter, that's not going to go well.
Accuray
Just got another "everything ok?". W invited me to watch the Grammys with her but I declined, not that interested. She just came in and gave me the "everything ok?" and renewed her offer.
Accuray
Cadet,
There is no ebook version of "The Solo Partner" so I ordered "The Passion Trap" which is supposed to have the same theme, but to be more gender neutral.
Try searching for the title of the book with the word mlc.
You are correct that their is no e-book, and the book may be out of print. You do not need to buy it.
And understand that this book is a relationship book, not one on MLC. If you find any information on it, like a book review, then you might register for that website.
I started pulling back when I got home last night. I've already gotten 2 "is everything alright?" and one "is something wrong?" so far this morning, and it's only been 5 hours. So far I've just been deflecting those by talking about trivial stuff I'm working on / thinking about.
Again she is pursuing you looking for you to do what you normally do. It is classic pursuit and distance.
She will more than likely not recommit to your marriage at this point because she is still in crisis.
She does not want to lose CONTROL.
She never really sought to control me, at one point she just wanted me gone.
So my question is why? for both you and her?
Just think about that no words to her will help
You lost me there -- I don't know what the question is in reference too, and I don't understand your last sentence.
Thanks! Feels good to have something new to work on.
Accuray
Why do you feel that you must pursue?
Or why do you feel that you must be controlled by her?
Even though you state that she is not controlling you.
Are you sure?
Who controls the relationship in LD/HD?
FWIW monster behavior is not required to be a MLC.
So you have drawn a wrong conclusion there.
I am not familiar with the book passion trap and have no opinion on it.
Last point is that even if you are piecing that does not mean that you pursue her. I think you might be confused about that point.
I am not saying that you are mean or controlling or anything like that, but you want her to pursue you.
MIRROR, but let her control the contact.
Oh and the most important point of the book.
DO NOT TELL HER ABOUT IT.
Thanks Cadet,
Let me run this by you -- I don't think she wants me to pursue, she wants me to be "ok" which is to say require nothing from her beyond which she chooses to give. I think this is more of a defense for her feelings of inadequacy than anything else.
I can inventory my pursuing behavior and knock it off. There's a fine line there between not pursuing and being cold or appearing completely disengaged. I believe it is the "acting different" that bothers W more than the lack of pursuit, because she's anticipating that some complaint is brewing that she will have to deal with.
When I pursue, W is not disengaged, and does do some pursuing of her own, but to the point of the book, we are not in balance.
The Passion Trap seems good, I'm going to keep going. I did read the Pursuit and Distance chapter from the Solo Partner on the other website. It seems to be written from the perspective of a WAH who has already moved out or who is cake eating and I don't have that. I get the point about balance, however, and will work on restoring ours.
Accuray
BTW, I couldn't not send her flowers for Valentines Day, I will need to take a pass on that one
I don't think she wants me to pursue, she wants me to be "ok" which is to say require nothing from her beyond which she chooses to give. I think this is more of a defense for her feelings of inadequacy than anything else.
Absolutely she does not want you to pursue.
And yes this is a defense of her feelings.
So stop pursuing and be OK.
Yes it is a fine line, a tightrope that we walk.
Tough stuff, I agree, if it were easy then none of us would be here.
Please re-read the first paragraph of my last post and be sure to follow anything else it says to DO. No need to post about it here. Just do it, I will know whether you follow my instructions or not.
So I have another question.
Why are we here?
Can you explain scientifically what is happening to your wife?
Maybe by knowing those answers you will understand the process a little bit better.
Cadet,
I've done what you've suggested, I assume you'll know I have. I also looked back at your original sitch, I wanted to understand where you were coming from. It's very clear to me that my sitch is significantly different from yours, and since you're relatively new to my thread, I wanted to be sure you understand this as well as you think you do. I have no doubt of your expertise in MLC, but I do doubt your skills in understanding my W. When I read the "MLC Profile" in the resources links and from the book review site, I don't really fit the stereotype emotional pursuer, nor does my W fit the emotional distancer. There is *some* of that going on, but it is not cut and dry.
If you pretend that you're not sure my W is having an MLC, or that I'm egregiously pursuing, are there some questions I could answer for you that would help you to confirm your understanding?
I think if we go through that exercise, I'll feel better about following your suggestions because I'll know you "get it". I do feel I'm playing with fire experimenting with my marriage while we're getting things back on track, so I want to be sure we know what we're dealing with.
WRT my MC session tonight, I assume you did not find MC very helpful. I will say I think the therapist I have is very good, he's the third one I went to before I engaged W to come. Given what we're reading about pursuing, I'm not sure how to handle the session tonight, I assume I'm better off not having any asks. I was going to go with "let me be happy and stop looking for problems" type theme.
Also, we've established some habits. Each night when we go to bed, I put my arm around her and she puts her head on my chest. From most of what I've read, that's a very positive practice because it reinforces pair bonding and helps you let go of any accumulated resentments. Per Althol Kay it's also an "alpha move". Now this could also be perceived as pursuing, because I have to make the first move, she can't put her head on my chest unless I move my arm under her pillow first to make room. She really seems to enjoy when we do this, and waits for me to move my arm. We tend to do it when we wake up too.
From my perspective, this is a major positive change in our relationship -- same bed time, physical connection each night and morning, etc. Historically, she would go to bed first and I would just do my own thing until I got tired. Most nights she'd be asleep before I came to bed.
If I disrupt this pattern, she's going to feel punished -- I can't very well say I don't want to do it anymore and stay credible. Here's what I have done:
-- I've stopped kissing her, if she wants to kiss, she can kiss me. She has been kissing me before we fall asleep, but she's initiating that. It's quick and non-passionate, but it's a kiss.
-- I've stopped complimenting her (few weeks now)
-- I've stopped inviting her to connect during the evening, if she wants to talk to me she can seek me out -- she has been.
-- I've stopped spooning her after ML, if she wants to cuddle she can come to me (she has been)
-- I used to get her coffee on Sunday morning. I stopped doing that about a month ago
Things I can still do to cease pursuit:
-- We've been connecting each day at work via Skype, I probably initiate that 80% of the time, I will cease doing so.
-- When she travels for business, I've been putting a card or a note in her bag. I will stop doing that. It's been several weeks since she traveled, she's getting on a plane for the day tomorrow -- no note.
-- I like to do a date night once per week. One of her historic complaints is that I would never line up the sitter. I did that a couple times but she just said that it's easier if she does it. Now, if we've gone a week with no date night, I'll usually point it out and ask her when she wants to go for the coming week. I'll stop doing that and just let her bring it up.
Here's the thing Cadet, I was not a historical pursuer, I was more the stereotype sexual pursuer and emotional distancer. It was that emotional distancing that lead to the bomb. That's why I'm hesitant to do emotional distancing now -- I know how to do it very well. The emotional pursuing and connecting have been 180's for me, and they take work on my part, they do not come naturally.
I've been doing them as 180's, and because my security in the relationship has been shaken. As time has passed and I've regained comfort, the pursuing behavior has been throttling back on it's own -- I firmly believe it's a transitional issue versus a character issue.
That said, I can accelerate outside of my comfort zone the emotional distancing if you can convince me that's what's called for.
Thanks!
Accuray
Men are emotional distancers and women are emotional pursurers, and sexually, the opposite occurs.
So do I understand that you are blaming BD on the fact that you were normal?(emotional distancer, sexual pursurer)? And you are 180 these things but that has not resulted in the desired outcome? And yes I know that you did what I suggested. My sich is not your, never said it was, does not mean that I am not aware of scientfic facts. Please do not trust anything that I say, do your own research and figure it out for your self.
It is YOUR marriage, not mine, you ultimately must decide how to proceed.
If you have read all my posts then you will also know that I have read tremendously about these subjects. I am not giving you advice trying to experiment. I am reading what you say and making comments on what I hear.
I will have more to say later.
My W is an emotional distancer and a sexual distancer, although on the emotional side, I believe she projects distancer, and wants to be a distancer, but still has many elements of pursuer. It's what makes her challenging -- she doesn't want to need what she needs, she thinks less of herself for needing it. That is less crisis and more "has always been that way".
So do I understand that you are blaming BD on the fact that you were normal?
No, one of the things I really liked about "Passionate Marriage" is that it pointed out that people like to find simple cause and effect relationships. If I press the lever I get a pellet, etc. Relationship dynamics are far more complicated, so just because you find a cause that seems to "fit" and explain what has happened, chances are it is nowhere near that simple. That's what my MC said about my W's affair -- you may be able to intellectually put together a story that explains why it happened, and 100% of it may make sense, but chances are it's not quite right and the reality is that you'll never know.
I don't "blame" the bomb on a simple story. It was a combination of (a) my W's personality, (b) my personality, (c) the "normal" dysfunction we allowed to develop in our marriage, and (d) an opportunity that my W was presented with. I could go on and on about how I believe each of these factors combined to lead to what happened, but it really doesn't matter.
As a result of this crisis, I realized some things about myself -- I was taking our marriage for granted, I was not connecting with my W, I resented my W due to sexual rejection, I'm a driving personality and have some annoying perfectionist tendancies, I created a lot of clutter around our house which drove my W nuts, I wasn't treating W as a partner in decision making, in many ways we were "separate but equal" versus working together.
Some of my W's complaints I disagreed with, some I viewed as perception alone, and others I owned as "bad". I know she re-wrote history, I know she made mistakes too -- I can't do anything about that. I do feel I have addressed my W's complaints, but I did it from the perspective that I wanted to do it for myself. If she didn't like it and ended up leaving, I'd be in a better place. I feel the same way about losing weight. If she likes it great, if she doesn't, that's ok too, I like it.
And you are 180 these things but that has not resulted in the desired outcome?
I didn't 180 these things to get a desired outcome. I did them because I wanted to. Separately, I'm not happy with the state of our reconciliation. I would like more intimacy, I would like to feel wanted and needed, I would like W to work on her own issues.
If you have read all my posts then you will also know that I have read tremendously about these subjects. I am not giving you advice trying to experiment. I am reading what you say and making comments on what I hear.
To be fair, I have not read all your posts. I just started reading from back in 2009. I have also read on this subject a ton -- just not MLC-specific resources yet. When I give advice or offer opinions on this forum, I do catch myself perhaps talking more about my own sitch than the one I'm helping with at times, because that's my frame of reference. That's a natural place to go, we just have to exercise due caution.
I'm here because I was in crisis and needed guidance. Now that I'm here, I like it. I'm not out of the woods yet, and the accumulated wisdom of those who have come before me is much appreciated. It's an emotional outlet, and it's a place I can vent, and all of that is appreciated.
Can you explain scientifically what is happening to your wife?
I'm not sure what kind of science I would apply. Can you provide an example and I'll try to answer?
Thanks Cadet, don't feel like I'm pushing you away, I welcome your guidance.
Accuray
Cadet,
I've done what you've suggested, I assume you'll know I have. I also looked back at your original sitch, I wanted to understand where you were coming from. It's very clear to me that my sitch is significantly different from yours, and since you're relatively new to my thread, I wanted to be sure you understand this as well as you think you do. I have no doubt of your expertise in MLC, but I do doubt your skills in understanding my W. When I read the "MLC Profile" in the resources links and from the book review site, I don't really fit the stereotype emotional pursuer, nor does my W fit the emotional distancer.
FWIW I spent the day reading your threads.
I see I am not the first person to mention MLC. As the Captain said the same thing on a previous thread. You have gotten good advice here and your MC seems to be on the ball.
I will not counter any of it FWIW, I still agree with my assessment of what is going on, although I agree I do not know you or your wife and can only read what is on the written on the page.
As far as MHO of MC it is that until both parties are ready to go all in, that it is a waste of time and money. That being said I did it for 6-9 months and my wife used it to validate her position.
Menopause is not that much different than a full surgical hysterectomy, the results being somewhat similar. So the advice that the CAPTAIN was giving you I believe has been spot on.
Oh and CAPTAIN, just as an aside reading what you posted as of my birthday last week you and I are the same age. And men go though menopause too!(I know I am not telling you anything new)
Accuray what you posted above a few posts I think is a good idea. DO not punish your wife. I think you are correct about that.
MLC like I said before can come in all forms.
It does not have to have an affair or monster. But their are templates that seem to follow a script.
I think what you may need to understand is that PURSUIT = Enabling.
So when you continue to pursue, you are enabling what is happening.
I will not judge you for what you think or do, nor tell you what you should do.
I am just trying to say that you are not the first person to go down this road and although every sich has its own specifics, some are very similar.
Let us know how the MC goes.
I had an interesting session last night with MC. MC knew my W wasn't coming back so last night was the last shot and I think he wanted to leave us with the message "everything is fine".
We did talk about "what's different now" than before the A, and from what W said I was definitely too alpha before. Greenblue I think assumed I was too Beta, but it was the opposite historically. I think I'm too Beta now and am getting things back in balance.
I did confirm the distance issue identified by Cadet. MC had us stand on opposite sides of the room. He said that if our distance across the room represented a marriage of convenience where there was no intimacy, he asked my W to move toward me to the distance that would represent the level of intimacy she would like to have in our marriage. She walked toward me and stopped about 5 feet away.
I was surprised and saddened by this, but didn't let on, as to me it represents quite a bit of distance. He then asked me to adjust the distance for myself by stepping forward or backward. I closed the distance to about 2 feet.
He then talked about the pursuit and distance dance. He said that in a given relationship, your "distance" will fluctuate, some days will be closer, some days will be farther. He said that if you get the difference in your distances to be less than your average fluctuation, then the apparent distance disappears (yes, my MC is an economist and mathematician by training).
We also talked about W's general happiness. She said she rates herself a 45 on a 100 point scale in terms of baseline happiness. MC asked to what degree she's accepted that, and she said 90 on a 100 point scale. He then told me that since she's accepted being less than happy, there's no hope of that changing and it's up to me to accept it.
He didn't really prescribe how to adjust distance preferences or how to accept having an unhappy spouse, but from what I've read I believe it's up to me to back off. I have to figure out how to do that without being cold, off-putting, or disengaged, as those cause W to panic.
He then sent us off into the world with an "I'm sure you'll be happy and fine" message which was kind of laughable given how things went.
I'll try walking that tightrope for a while and see how that feels. I do know that when I back off W does step up a little bit, and that usually feels good, but it's hard not to reciprocate.
W is traveling today so after MC we went out to dinner for Valentine's Day. Had a nice dinner, split a bottle of wine. W wanted assurance we don't have to go back to MC. W also wanted to make sure I'm not just "settling". I told her I'm here because I want to be and if that changes she'll know.
Night ended on a good note, exchanged cards, etc. 2x4 because I just assumed we would ML since we were celebrating Valentine's Day, shared a bottle of wine, were feeling good etc., but W just wanted to hug and fall asleep. (I didn't ask to ML or initiate) When I saw nothing was going to happen I did disentangle myself and rolled away from W, then neither of us slept well.
I really want to stop this "punishing" behavior when we don't ML when I expect to. Not sure how to do that, because staying in an embrace with raging hormones is painful. I will figure that out.
Accuray
Sorry, I've been away and have read to catch up on what I've missed. Be back soon.
The Captain
No problem Captain, no big emergency currently. FWIW, here are the 180's that my W said "mattered" when asked by the MC:
1) Approachable: She said that I used to be unapproachable when she wanted to discuss something that was difficult, or something I disagreed with. She said she felt she would get "talk to the hand" and I'd just end the conversation and walk away. Now she feels I'm very approachable and we can have productive conversations.
2) Connection: She said that I make it a point to connect at least once per day to ask her how her day is going, generally catch up etc. She said I used to neglect her.
3) Physical: She said that we've established the same bed time and hug when going to bed and when waking up, she said that's been very important to her. Before I tended to go to bed after she was asleep, and she'd be gone before I woke up.
4) Partnership: She feels that I'm more of a partner now, will work on projects with her versus in parallel, and that I've taken on more household tasks. She appreciates that.
So yes, the pursuing stuff (gifts, acts of service, compliments, etc.) did not make the list of what matters -- good to know.
It was interesting to listen to her characterization of how I used to be, because my impression is so much different. When I started to point out that she could have tried connecting with me too, MC stopped us both and said that there is an effect that has been studied that our memories are driven by our intentions, not our actions. i.e. if we intended to be helpful but were perceived as controlling, our memory will be that we were helpful, even if we got direct feedback that what we did was controlling. He said that's why it's often difficult to reconcile our impressions of our past relationships -- because our intentions are invisible to the other party, all they see is our actions. We're largely focused on our intentions and are therefore less aware of how our actions are perceived.
Good stuff.
Accuray
I'd say you had a couple of interesting weeks.
Good point about actions. We all operate with our own assumptions, interpretations, and intentions driven by our self-interests. The perception/action/intention, though is a two-way street, filteres through the other's view. So, while your wife pointed out 4 different things that mattered (or maybe more correctly she noticed that were important to her), the question remains: Did the matter enough to alter behavior?
I've been through a similar conversation a number of times myself.
A couple of other points left hanging in previous posts:
Its natural to want to find a reasonable explanation for why things go the way they do, whether that be some book, some condition, some course or training that seems to explain or fit most of what we are and have experienced. An observation on my part: while various books may be useful in creating a language to explain and relate to what has and is happening in your marriage, in the end you have to adapt those "insights" to a language and actions consistent with who you are. And who you are is something that you state with words and with actions so that the external world and your internal worlld "know you."
You asked about what acceptance looks like. That is a good way of asking the question as acceptance is not something you do. One way it would look would be having and grasping as complete an understanding of your wife's POV and taking actions consistent with that. That is difficult when someone really won't let you in.
Acceptance is something created in a present moment. I can't tell you what it looks like exactly, you'll know it when you see.
However, an appropriate analogy is like describing "balance" when riding a bicycle. If you've never riden a bicycle, you know what that looks like but you don't know what it feels like (and how that translate internally to your own sense of experience) until you actually achieve it.
Balance in walking probably came well before you were programmed with language to relate to it in the same way. There you were acting on stimulus/response patterns that are partially hard-wired into your brain (just as sexual drive is also partially hard-wired). You created a muscle memory that really doesn't require language to have it happen. But to have it "occur" as something conscious is a bit more difficult to describe because the occurrence (awareness) only comes through language. Sometimes the language is not up to the process.
But by choosing a metaphor like balance for bicycle riding or skiing, the sense of balance (like acceptance) comes in a fleeting moment when all of a sudden your realize you "have it." It can disappear in an instant when it is no longer "present" (and we could say that you were no longer in the present moment). It can, with practice, become "second nature" and it is also something which you can continually "create" (until you don't).
I'm going to use some interesting language that may not make sense and is designed to be thought provoking. And it is a three-step view. This is why I use balance on a bicycle or skis as the metaphor...it is not some physical object you point to in space and time.
Being in acceptance (being accepting) is being related to something that is unimaginable to be related to, the occurrence of which, if ever, lies on the other side of being related to that is unimaginable to be related to.
Instead of acceptance, I could have used the word "present," or "love" or any other number of words that seem trancendental. But lets stick with acceptance and the metaphor of balance.
Read the above italicized paragraph several more times and just let it sink in. Don't try to think it through, don't try to translate it, don'tr try to understand it. If it reads as confusing, you are in a perfect spot. When you think you've got the general structure of the paragraph move down to the next paragraph below.
So, here are the three points.
What does is mean to be related to something. I'm going to use a tangible example. First, an occurring world occurs only because of language. The language you have been programmed with and use "give you" your world view. No language, no occurring world (different from stuff happening in the world, but without language there is no way to catalog and recognize it). The story of Helen Keller was a great example of this.
As a tangible example, you know what a door is. You see it and relate to it in certain ways, many of which may be cultural. In your experience with a door, you also have accumulated rules of doors. Thus, you "be related to" a door by recognizing and classifiying it in your vocabulary as a "door" and you relate to that door through all the rules you know about doors. You use those rules to know when you and if you can and should open a door, whether you should knock, what it means if a door is locked, etc. You also know how a door fits in with a structure (room, building, etc.).
To a culture without doors, any explanation you gave would be nonsensical both because the language and the "occurence" of doors is outside of their realm of experience. For them a door is unimaginable to be related to.
Are you with me so far?
On the intangible like acceptance it is the same type of deal...being related to that which is unimaginable to be related to. Just as it is to see balance on a bicycle, but until you actually experience it, it is unimaginable to be related to. You may have preconceived notions and expectations and they are just that.
I can tell you all the things you need to do to create balance and ride a bicycle and you would know the meaning of all the words...but until you actually experience the words are almost as meaningless as some nonsense language.
So you get on the bike and start doing those things you've been told to do to create balance in riding a bicycle. And you are likely to crash a few times. Someone might run alongside of you helping to keep the bicycle upright or you might have "training wheels" to help keep the bicycle upright to create a sense of bein balanced. Or you might give up thinking that this is too hard to do or too hard to produce the satisfaction that you think ought to occur.
But there is another possibility...that you get and experience "balance" and that happens in a present moment, not the past, not the future, right now in the here and now. So, by being related to that which is unimaginable to be related to (the possibility of being in balance or being in acceptance), there is a moment where it happens. In that moment it just seems to happen, its timeless. This is the completion of step two.
Step three is the occurring. The "occurring," where you say to yourself that you are balanced (or accepting), happens in a blink of an eye right after you are balanced (the occurring of which, if ever, occurs on the other side of being related to that which is unimagiable to be related to). In that instant and all subsequent ones, all the descriptions books, instructions, etc of how to balance yourself on a bicycle make sense (if we weren't speaking gibberish to begin with).
Now, if you've grasped what I've written, you can probably see how this could apply to just about every aspect of living.
Isn't love the same way? Didn't you have all these notions of what love was before you ever realized that you were in love? You can know all the things to do and loving is a state of being that exists in the present that you are always creating in the present moment. And when you aren't creating that you are in your past about exepectations, the way things should be, ought to be, etc.
This is soething that requires fairly advance persongood to sustain (and even though I can articulate it, I'm not immune to the conversations about the way things ought to be rather than the way things are).
One final thought on this. Making love is much the same way as riding a bicycle in balance. You (and your wife) know all the mechanics of sex. You can go through the motions and "do sex" upon one another and the physical sensations of the physiological act can be pleasurable. But you (and others) make a distinction between sex and ML, that there is something that "occurs" for you that you relate to differently than just the sexual mechanics. And when you consistently achieve that state, even though you might be doing much the same things over and over again, each time seems "new" and unique. In fact, we probably approach each time as if it was differnt because it is/was. When it loses it spark, it could be as much as doing the same old thing lloking for a moment from the past to happen again, rather than creating it in the moment.
Just something to think about.
One last thing on letting go...
It looks like things that you are withholding or something to do that looks like "letting go" to you. My sense is that letting go is quite different from what you think it is or what you've been doing.
The Captain
Thanks Captain,
I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I've had a rough week. Between XMas and New Years we went on a cruise which was my W's choice as a family vacation. A cruise would have been the last thing I would have wanted to do, but I went along for the ride with a good attitude and tried to really enjoy myself. My W commented about what a good attitude I had and that really helped her to enjoy it. This week we are on a family ski vacation (my choice) for school vacation week. My W's attitude has been very hard for me to take. She's letting me know in no uncertain terms how unhappy she is to be here.
The weather is actually great, new snow, no wind, warm temps, yet she's not skiing and is generally like 3 days of rain. We've ML twice on the vacation and it was the worst experience I can remember. She made it very clear it was "for me" and let me know she didn't enjoy it at all. This is really trying my patience. We're here with 2 other families from town and the other wives are great, helping with the kids on the slopes, truly enjoying themselves, etc., it's really eye opening that my W is unduly negative.
I was thinking today about how badly I wanted this woman back when she cheated on me and asked for divorce. Based on how I'm feeling now, if she did it again I'd tell her to go and wish her luck. What was I thinking?
Accuray
Hi Accuray - it sounds like you are going through a tough time lately. What is it you love about your W and your M as it is now? Try journaling that - if not here somewhere private. The dissatisfaction seems to be growing. I know you need to vent the bad stuff too, but take some time to focus on what's good to balance it out in your mind. To remind you of what you're working for, striving for. What you are maintaining your relationship for. I hope you can stay married and be satisfied in your marriage. It sounds lately like she is not bringing much to the table - look for the small things that might make you feel better. One is that she was willing to go see the MC - that was a big thing. One is that she ML with you twice on your vacation - maybe think of the "it wasn't good for me" speech as Tourette's like, something she seems to be unable to control, can you sort of tune it out? I'm grasping here.
What is keeping you motivated?
Hi Adinva,
Thanks for checking in. I spoke to the MC one-on-one after our last session and he said that my W has "taken a critical healing mechanism off the table" by not being willing to work on things and just expecting to be accepted "as is". He said that in his opinion W doesn't want to deal with things. It's hard not to be able to make any requests or want to work on improving our marriage without upsetting her and being the bad guy, I feel painted into a corner. On the last night of our ski vacation we were out to dinner with the kids and she was complaining about the weather. I told her "you really didn't enjoy this vacation did you?" She then got really angry and said she was just going to leave the restaurant. I didn't want that to happen in front of the kids so I talked her back down, but I was VERY tempted to let her leave, because I don't think that storming out is acceptable behavior.
Between that, discovering that W wants more space in the marriage and less intimacy, that W has accepted being chronically unhappy and doesn't want to deal with it and the fact that the ML has been getting worse, I am questioning my commitment.
I've been doing online weight watchers for a few weeks and have lost about 7 pounds. I've also started a new exercise program. From my perspective, if this doesn't work out, I'm going to be feeling as good as I can about myself at the end. Working on these things has really allowed me to care less about what's going on with W and "do my thing" which feels like I'm heading back to where I was before the bomb dropped, but I don't see that W is giving me options.
In terms of your question about what's keeping me motivated? I would have to say it's about 85% the kids at this point. They are really very happy and I know that dealing with a divorce would be devastating for them, particularly because of my W's unhappiness and bad moods. I'm a buffer for that while I'm in the house, but if I was gone they wouldn't have anywhere to go.
I would like a better marriage, I feel like I've pushed it as far as I can alone. I'm not sure where to go from here. I think we ran MC as far as it's going to help. I ordered "The Solo Partner" per Cadet and it came the other day, I'm going to start reading that. I read "The Passion Trap" but we're not clearly in a one-up, one-down dynamic, it wasn't as applicable as I had hoped.
BTW, W doesn't say "it wasn't good for me" -- I stopped asking.
Thanks for checking in Adinva, how's it going for you?
Accuray
Accuray
I understand that your kids being involved changes the equation considerably. That being said your wife handed you a major fitness test and you failed it. You had an honorable reason to let it go, unfortunately you just proved to her that she can say or do outrageous things in front of the children, and you will fold for their sake. Don't be surprised if she continues to throw ultimatums and tantrums in front of them.
I know it seems like you are making things worse, but when she throws a tantrum let her. Let her learn that she gets nothing out of it. Otherwise you are just reinforcing to her that she can get her way if she acts nasty in front of the kids.
Greenblue90,
You really need to step back from MMSLP, it's one input into the equation, it doesn't define all human interactions now and forever. It is a valuable data point, but it's just that.
That was not a fitness test, my W was truly upset, she wasn't testing me, she doesn't do fitness tests. I read the book too, I would know, and that's not her. Not every relationship conflict is a fitness test.
I did not fold, I maintained that her behavior was inappropriate and discussed it with her again after the kids were asleep. I just prevented her from making a scene in the restaurant in front of the kids by not pressing my point at the time. I further made the point that threatening to storm away from the table was inappropriate, and that if she was going to do that, we weren't going to go to restaurants (boundary).
You have given some people some really good advice, I used to really like what you wrote, but now you are way off the deep end on MMSLP -- it may work for you, it may be exactly the thing you needed for your marriage, but it is not a cure-all and does not apply to every situation.
Accuray
I'm a buffer for that while I'm in the house, but if I was gone they wouldn't have anywhere to go.
Yup, been there done that.
Sounds like to me she was acting like a teenager.
Until she finshes growing up you will be the DAD.
Tough for a wife to sleep with their DAD, don't you think?
Glad you got the book, the last part of the book is the best, IMHO.
Accuray
You hadn't mentioned that you confronted her about it later on. As for fitness tests maybe that was the wrong term, but MMSL or not you get the behavior you tolerate. I just wanted to point out that.
As for the way I think well things have sure changed. You are right in that I'm not as optimistic as I used to be. I still think DB was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Despite this it's been a very long and hard year. My wife like yours and a couple of other old timers returned, yet something wast quite right. They're physically back, but mentally go WAW.
They know they don't want to leave, but they can't accept that. They say things like I'm doing it for the kids, or I don't know if this is what I want, amongst other excuses.
I know DB is all about saving marriages, which I still believe in. Just not in saving marriages "at ALL costs".
Especially when the WAW won't commit to a happy marriage and instead strings the LBS along.
Now of course everyone's definition of a happy marriage is different. Mine happens to include a robust sex life.
So if your W does not even want to lift a finger to give you what makes you happy then I believe it's ok to move on.
That being said I really love my W like many here do, so the MMSL philosophy fits well it gives me a chance to methodically improve myself while giving my wife a chance to notice my improvements while giving her time to react and show some of her own.
I try to model the relationship I want by acting the part in my own marriage. I think I either haven't expressed myself well or people are misunderstanding.
I don't believe in a sudden thunderous ultimatum. I especially don't believe in being a WAS.
What I do believe in now is my inherent self worth, and what it will take to keep a person like myself in a relationship. Don't necessarily believe in unconditional love either, or rather that it's smart to practice it.
I think there have to be conditions to stay, on both sides. You wouldn't stay with your partner if they killed your parents, how about if they beat you? Cheated on you? Talked down to you? Disrespected you? Denied you all sexual pleasure?The slope gets more slippery as we go down.
Of course you have your children and their welfare to think about, but consider this: it is said that children often model their parents relationships, what type of role models do they have?
I think following the MAP is a very good way since it advocates about a year for every "point in sex rank" you want to achieve. This means that you have a long time to fix yourself and your spouse has a long time to notice, but most importantly accept your changes.
When a spouse becomes a WAW whether you want to call it sex rank, not enough alpha or beta, or whatever, you are not worth much to your spouse. Your probably hemorrhaging value.
DB is excellent at closing the wound. Its like emergency care for a marriage. It stabilizes it. Going dark, 180's, stopping the begging and pleading, are all ways of stopping you from behaving and unattractive ways and making you even more intolerable to your WAS.
Whereas DB is emergency treatment, MMSL (at least for the guys) is like strengthening the muscle around the wound, and practicing preventive care.
Ultimately though if the one that keeps stabbing the marriage and opening wounds, part of preventive care would be to move away from the person doing damage. Thus why the MAP ends in divorce.
I've received advice in the past before saying that a LD has no reason to change unless they have a good reason.
SSM lays out a lot of good reasons as to why the LD should change. (a happy partner, and a strong marriage being big ones, and of course discouraging infidelity being important too)
I think the average stubborn LD is too conflicted with their own issues to care about their partners fulfillment, while at the same time either believes their partner incapable, unwilling, or too unattractive to cheat or leave for someone else.
In other words "my marriage is safe, so I don't have to change"
Or worse "I care so little for my marriage that I don't care if he cheats or leaves, maybe I'll leave first!"
By following the map, you increase your own self value so that she hopefully values you more, in doing that she realizes you now have the ability to cheat or leave for someone else. It doesn't mean you will, or are even considering it, but you can.
Now she has to protect this man she suddenly values, lest some other woman take him away.
It's her motivation to change. We often tell people here to become the person only a fool would leave.
MMSL tweaks it to say: be the person only a fool would risk losing.
I was thinking today about how badly I wanted this woman back when she cheated on me and asked for divorce. Based on how I'm feeling now, if she did it again I'd tell her to go and wish her luck. What was I thinking?
What you were thinking was "what have I done wrong and what can I do to fix it?" because you were caught unaware and essentially blindsided.
And you were certain that if you just did that, your wife would once again love you as much as you love(d) her. While you might have surmised that there would be some difficulty in trust (as in your trusting her and her trusting you not to "se" this against her), you were confident, even if in shock, in your own ability to "make this right."
That's what you were thinking. I know I've been there before.
And what is happening is that you are questioning your resolve and your ability to actually do this as things don't progress and as you see your wife really unwilling to commit to your marriage and making it healthy and vibrant again.
This ski vacation was "for you" and what is upsetting is that there is no reciprocity for your efforts between Christmas and New Years. I still contend she isn't ML to or with you...she is doing sex to you to meet some illusion of relationship and marriage (which is the most obvious outward sign that she can provide).
Is there something that actually is a game changer given everything that has occurred since last summer? Well, whatever it is, oneor both of you are going to have to give up your boredom.
At some point you may, indeed, need to say to her that she was correct and you were not when the affair was revealed...that she needs to leave and (possibly) file for divorce. You may be tempted to say something like so she "can find someone just as sexless" as she is," but I wonuldn't recommend it. But it isn't the ultimatum of sex or divorce...choose. It is a recognition that she is unhappy and wishes to make you equally unhappy and that she needs to take that someplace else.
I know that a divorce is not something that you'd automatically choose, nor sm I saying that is what you ought to dangle out there as the likely outcome. But a serious question is whether she really wants to remain married to you. We don't ask because we a re afraid the answer might be "no." when we've always thought it should be "yes." But you are now in the position of "pushing a rope" which tends not to be very productive.
The Captain
Greenblue90,
you get the behavior you tolerate. I just wanted to point out that.
I'm well aware of that. "Bad behavior" from an adult is complicated though. Sometimes the person is in control and is trying to be difficult or provocative, or get a rise out of you. That's the kind of behavior you need to clamp down on. Other times the person is simply out of control, they have "lost it", either out of deep sadness, anger or despair. Those scenarios you have to treat on a case by case basis. Sometimes you have to set limits and walk away, sometimes you have to listen and comfort, and sometimes you need to stabilize and revisit later. Category 1 bad behavior is described in the fitness test. Category 2 bad behavior really isn't discussed in MMSLP except touched on in the "batsh*t crazy" rant he has.
They know they don't want to leave, but they can't accept that. They say things like I'm doing it for the kids, or I don't know if this is what I want, amongst other excuses.
My sitch is different here. My W accepts that she wants to stay. She does not say she's doing it for the kids or anything else. She's saying things are MUCH better for her, she's happy, and she just wants me to be happy with what she can provide, without having to change who she is. That is a significant difference between our sitches, our women are different, have different motivations, different issues, etc. Although some of their behaviors may seem to fit similar patterns, the cause of those behaviors may be far different, so they can't be dealt with or explained in the same way.
[/Quote=Greenblue90]Especially when the WAW won't commit to a happy marriage and instead strings the LBS along.[/Quote]
There's an important dynamic to be understood here concerning decision and inability. WAW may be stringing you along because they have decided to do so, or it may feel that way because they are incapable of intimacy due to their own issues. Do you agree with that distinction?
Upon lots of reflection, that's my fundamental issue with MMSLP. The author suggests that if your W isn't having sex with you, it's because they're not attracted to you sexually, because your sex rank is lower, you're not alpha or beta enough, etc. etc.
The assumption is that all women are sexual beings, have sex drives just like men do, and it's something about you that is holding them back. It's because of some fault of yours. What that ignores is what if your W is not sexual because of how they feel about themselves? What if your W has body image problems? What if your W has self-esteem or self-confidence problems? What if your W has been taught religious guilt or shame in regards to sex? Those things don't have anything to do with you. Running the MAP may get you "defensive sex" in that scenario, but as previously discussed I don't think many married men would consider that a win or an acceptable long term outcome.
MMSLP may be right "on average", but on average men are taller than women. That doesn't mean you won't find a married couple with a taller wife -- that scenario exists, it's just on the edges of the bell curve. If you apply the "average case" rules to the end of the bell curve cases you won't get the expected result.
So if your W does not even want to lift a finger to give you what makes you happy then I believe it's ok to move on.
Agreed if that is her choice. If she is incapable of doing the things that make you happy because of who she is, then the equation is more complicated.
That being said I really love my W like many here do, so the MMSL philosophy fits well it gives me a chance to methodically improve myself while giving my wife a chance to notice my improvements while giving her time to react and show some of her own.
Working on your own improvements is awesome, I'm doing the same thing. However, if you're expecting your W to "notice" and for that notice to result in new behaviors, you may be disappointed if the source of your sexual issues were NOT due to your deficiencies but instead your W's issues. Along the same lines, if you expect her to show some of her own improvements because you've improved, then you're falling into the "Nice Guy" thinking trap. Her choice to work on improvements is completely independent of what you do or do not do.
What I do believe in now is my inherent self worth, and what it will take to keep a person like myself in a relationship. Don't necessarily believe in unconditional love either, or rather that it's smart to practice it.
I think there have to be conditions to stay, on both sides. You wouldn't stay with your partner if they killed your parents, how about if they beat you? Cheated on you? Talked down to you? Disrespected you? Denied you all sexual pleasure?The slope gets more slippery as we go down.
Right, I agree with all of that. Did I suggest I was going to stay unconditionally? I have boundaries and am committed to them. One of them is that we will have a sex life in our marriage with at least once weekly frequency. If that ends, I am gone.
Of course you have your children and their welfare to think about, but consider this: it is said that children often model their parents relationships, what type of role models do they have?
I have no concerns about this whatsoever. My W and I have always parented extremely well as a team. We don't have "stupid" fights in front of the kids, although we do have occasional disagreements, but I think having the kids see us work through that is healthy. That's why when my W threatened to leave the table I had such a strong reaction later. She has never done that, and from my perspective we don't act that way in front of the kids. I made it clear that I felt that way. Since piecing, we've been more physical in front of the kids, more hugging, etc. We've been doing things around the house more together, in general, our "model" has improved, although it was never bad.
I think following the MAP is a very good way since it advocates about a year for every "point in sex rank" you want to achieve. This means that you have a long time to fix yourself and your spouse has a long time to notice, but most importantly accept your changes.
His disclaimer is so key here -- she may not notice, she may not respond the way you want, and the author says "then you leave". Is that your plan?
When a spouse becomes a WAW whether you want to call it sex rank, not enough alpha or beta, or whatever, you are not worth much to your spouse. Your probably hemorrhaging value.
Maybe not. What if your W is going through menopause or has other medical or psychological issues going on that have nothing to do with you? I saw Joe Pantoliano on TV the other day talking about his battle with depression. He said he felt so badly about himself he wanted to punish his wife for loving him. Does that mean he didn't value her? I don't think so, I think he couldn't accept her love because he didn't love himself. See the difference?
Whereas DB is emergency treatment, MMSL (at least for the guys) is like strengthening the muscle around the wound, and practicing preventive care.
You and I are just going to disagree on that. MMSL is one thing to think about, along with 5LL's, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, The Passion Trap, Passionate Marriage, etc. They all contribute a little bit to strengthening the muscle. Sometimes they are contradictory. You need to create your own MAP based upon your understanding of your sitch, your understanding of your W, your goals for your M, and "package motivations" like your kids, your financial sitch, etc. You also need to decide on the man you want to be. If your only motivation is to have a great sex life and nothing much matters beyond that, then MMSLP is the way to go. Reading it, the "ultimate solution" is to marry a woman with a lower sex rank to begin with. Then you win coming out of the gate. Is that what you want?
I've received advice in the past before saying that a LD has no reason to change unless they have a good reason.
Sometimes even given a good reason they are incapable, because you cannot change your sexuality. You can act differently, but you can't "make" yourself HD. I don't believe even a buff caveman with a giant club can make some LD women HD. I did not buy that. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but not always one way or the other.
I think the average stubborn LD is too conflicted with their own issues to care about their partners fulfillment, while at the same time either believes their partner incapable, unwilling, or too unattractive to cheat or leave for someone else.
In other words "my marriage is safe, so I don't have to change"
My W told me she assumed I was cheating. She knows I'm marketable and that she wasn't meeting my needs, so she assumed I was getting it taken care of on the side. How does that fit into your argument?
Or worse "I care so little for my marriage that I don't care if he cheats or leaves, maybe I'll leave first!"
Or how about, "I feel so badly about myself I don't know what to do. I value my marriage, but nothing I do seems good enough, so it doesn't seem worth it to try." Can you see this perspective too or not?
By following the map, you increase your own self value so that she hopefully values you more, in doing that she realizes you now have the ability to cheat or leave for someone else. It doesn't mean you will, or are even considering it, but you can.
Once again, she realizes that. She thinks someone else could make me happier, but she feels hopeless in the face of that knowledge because she doesn't think she has what it takes to compete.
Now she has to protect this man she suddenly values, lest some other woman take him away.
...or she decides she doesn't have the resources to protect this man and instead resigns herself to failure...
I hope this has made sense. I think I've laid out the holes I see in MMSLP. If you don't agree or can't see this perspective, you and I are just going to agree to disagree, because continuing to make these arguments with me isn't going to go anywhere. I read the book too, cover to cover. I understand it, no one is going to explain it better than the author did. I just don't agree with everything in it. I see exactly how my sitch fits into it, and his prescription does not lead to the outcome I want.
Accuray
What you were thinking was "what have I done wrong and what can I do to fix it?" because you were caught unaware and essentially blindsided.
And you were certain that if you just did that, your wife would once again love you as much as you love(d) her. While you might have surmised that there would be some difficulty in trust (as in your trusting her and her trusting you not to "se" this against her), you were confident, even if in shock, in your own ability to "make this right."
So right Captain. I have also gained this hindsight. I see that now. I viewed the situation as my failing and therefore wanted to address it.
And what is happening is that you are questioning your resolve and your ability to actually do this as things don't progress and as you see your wife really unwilling to commit to your marriage and making it healthy and vibrant again.
I'm coming to see it as unable versus unwilling. The "unwilling" is something I could not accept, could not live with. "Unable" is something I can deal with.
This ski vacation was "for you" and what is upsetting is that there is no reciprocity for your efforts between Christmas and New Years.
Kind of, I went into it with the assumption that it was "for us", so when I saw that she wasn't going to make an effort to enjoy it, it bothered me. I was looking forward to a family vacation, with the emphasis on family. If I just wanted a good ski trip "for me", I'd go with my guy friends.
I didn't go into it expecting reciprocity, because I didn't go into it thinking that she was coming reluctantly. She suggested going skiing over school vacation week, so I assumed she was "on board", and I made expensive lodging accommodations because I knew she would value it. Then, on vacation she seemed overly critical, moody, and when we went out to dinner with other families she let out a torrent of complaints. Reflecting back on our prior vacation was something I did after the fact, I didn't go in expecting "I did that for you, now you do this for me."
I still contend she isn't ML to or with you...she is doing sex to you to meet some illusion of relationship and marriage (which is the most obvious outward sign that she can provide).
Yes, this continues to wear on me. Once again, it's not always bad. Sometimes it's quite good. If it were always bad it would make things easier. It's "just good enough" to keep me invested. When we were on vacation, I could have been having sex with a prostitute, that's the attitude I was getting. If that were the norm I would not accept that -- it's not.
Is there something that actually is a game changer given everything that has occurred since last summer? Well, whatever it is, one or both of you are going to have to give up your boredom.
I don't get it. What would have been a game changer? Are you talking about during the vacation, or since last summer?
What do you mean that one or both of us has to give up our boredom? What boredom?
At some point you may, indeed, need to say to her that she was correct and you were not when the affair was revealed...that she needs to leave and (possibly) file for divorce. You may be tempted to say something like so she "can find someone just as sexless" as she is," but I wouldn't recommend it.
I wouldn't say that. I don't view it as a willful act of malice on her part. I see it as an inability that she doesn't feel she has the strength to work on. I have hinted at this a few times. I told her that if she feels she needs to leave again I will let her go, and not to stay out of any sense of obligation. If she doesn't *want* to stay, she should leave and I will not follow.
But it isn't the ultimatum of sex or divorce...choose. It is a recognition that she is unhappy and wishes to make you equally unhappy and that she needs to take that someplace else.
It's a bit different in that she does want me to be happy, but she wants what she currently offers to be good enough. If I expressed no dissatisfaction with her ever again she would be overjoyed.
The ultimatum is also not "sex or divorce" because I currently have sex. As we've discussed, I don't want sex, I want "quality ML", so the ultimatum would be "quality ML or divorce" which I would imagine would be a scary ultimatum because how do you measure "quality ML"?
I know that a divorce is not something that you'd automatically choose, nor am I saying that is what you ought to dangle out there as the likely outcome. But a serious question is whether she really wants to remain married to you. We don't ask because we are afraid the answer might be "no." when we've always thought it should be "yes." But you are now in the position of "pushing a rope" which tends not to be very productive.
The interesting thing about that question is that you'll only truly be confident in the answer if it's "no" right? Otherwise they could just be saying "yes" because they're not ready to be pushed out of the nest.
I'm convinced that at this point she does want to stay married to me.
She wants to stay married to me on her terms -- which is to say that she's "good enough" as is, that no changes are expected, and that I treat whatever she does for me as a gift. That I am 100% responsible for my own happiness and satisfaction, and if she contributes anything to that it's treated as a bonus. <-- That philosophy is espoused by many relationship books. Here's how I've come to view that:
1) My MC said it's pure fiction -- that the institution of marriage implies that you are to some degree responsible for your spouse's happiness. He said that to try to be happy in a marriage (or any relationship) where the other party is not doing their part is impossible. I do believe this.
2) Although it's very hard for our spouses to consistently "make us happy", it's easy for our spouses to "make us unhappy". They know exactly where to go, what to do, and what buttons to push. If our spouse is not responsible for our happiness, I do believe they owe us a responsibility not to push our unhappiness buttons when we are happy.
Think of it like an eroding land bank near the sea. "Providing happiness" would be like building a sea wall in front of it to prevent further erosion. That implies concerted effort.
"Not detracting from happiness" would be not pulling out the grass and pulling rocks out of the bank which will hasten the erosion process.
Obviously it would be nice if our spouse would work on the sea wall, but the level of "obligation" there is subject to discussion.
I feel they are obliged not to make the situation worse by pulling out the grass and yanking out the rocks.
If your spouse is depressed, an alcoholic, etc., and their behaviors detract from your happiness, then they are pulling out the rocks and grass. If they deal with their issues they are preventing further erosion, versus creating your happiness.
Make sense?
Accuray
Accuray
I had a huge long post written but I deleted all of it.
This is all I really have.
Are you happy with the status quo? (this includes sex, but is more than that to include the way she treats you, and how her outlook on life affects you)
If you are not happy, do you demand she does change in order to continue the relationship, or are you willing to accept your unhappiness and frustration?
if you do expect change on her part how long are you willing to wait till you throw in the towel?
Are you happy with the status quo? (this includes sex, but is more than that to include the way she treats you, and how her outlook on life affects you)
Categorically no, sometimes yes, and things are slowly improving overall. I have hope it will turn to categorically yes and sometimes no. That transition has as much to do with me as it does with her.
If you are not happy, do you demand she does change in order to continue the relationship, or are you willing to accept your unhappiness and frustration?
I have been told she will not or cannot change, so demanding is off the table. I either end the relationship, accept my unhappiness and frustration, or find a different path to happiness within the relationship.
if you do expect change on her part how long are you willing to wait till you throw in the towel?
My current plan is run the MAP, get as happy with me as I can be. Follow the advice in "The Solo Partner" and cease any pursuit. So far this has been effective. When you don't pursue, you don't expect your pursuing to lead anywhere. When the distancer gets uncomfortable, they then start to pursue. I see this dynamic, I'm figuring out how to best make it work.
Maybe the MAP will work. Maybe the Solo Partner will work. Maybe neither will work but I will no longer care because I've found happiness in other ways. Maybe none of it will work and I'll still be unhappy in this relationship. I'm content to withhold on blowing anything up until I've exhausted all avenues. I haven't yet given either the MAP or the Solo Partner stuff enough time to make a difference so there is no immediate decision to be made. My next major reassessment will be when I reach my goal weight and fitness level, and have addressed any non-relationship based sources of dissatisfaction (i.e. work on me as well as I'm going to do it)
This assumes that my marriage is more or less no better and no worse than it is now. When we went on vacation it degraded which had me tipping toward throwing in the towel. Since we've returned it's improved and pulled me back.
To be fair, what are
your answers to your own questions?
Accuray
A, are you applying the "pursuer cutting off pursuit" advice from the Solo Partner? I thought you believed that would cause her to run.
A, are you applying the "pursuer cutting off pursuit" advice from the Solo Partner? I thought you believed that would cause her to run.
The ultimatum will cause her to run. If I go cold turkey on cutting off pursuit she will panic. I also don't think it's called for because things aren't that bad. She's not being mean to me, she's not acting badly, etc. etc. Going dark would be overkill right now. I would describe it as throttling back pursuit. If I used to do 10 things, two weeks ago I went down to 8, then 6, now 4, etc.
Historically when I would do that she would pursue a little, then start to panic and have a breakdown which would trigger my pursuing behaviors to start again thus the dance. This time I'm trying to walk the line between cutting back enough to allow her to pursue, but not so much that I push it into panic. It's a tightrope.
She starts asking me what's wrong and I have to keep repeating nothing is wrong and do it in a way that she'll believe and stop asking.
If she thinks something is wrong and I'm not discussing it she starts to get depressed and withdraws. If I over pursue she withdraws, so I have withdrawal on both sides. I've been able to get the "sweet spot" in the past, but I haven't been able to maintain it -- it's either on the way up to overpursuing, or on the way down to depression.
If I can figure it out I'll be in good shape once I can internalize it and do it without massive effort.
Accuray
Also, as I withdraw my mood normalizes and I'm less affected by her. When I pursue my mood swings in response to her responses. When I withdraw I run a pretty flat line on the good side of happy. There's another tightrope there between being disengaged enough to maintain my mood but not disengaging so much that she feels disconnected. So difficult!
Ideally she'd want more intimacy and we could normalize there which would make me feel better all around, but she doesn't want that.
Accuray
Are you just trying to reduce your contribution to match hers so that it's equal, or do you think she'll pursue you some so that you'll eventually get more of what you want?
I'm trying to do what's suggested in The Solo Partner, The Passion Trap etc. Make the situation feel less controlled, make her feel she needs to work more. "The Passion Trap" says that feelings of being "in love" are directly correlated with feelings of being "out of control". When you first start dating someone, you don't know what they think of you, you don't know if you'll see them again, etc. etc. It's those out of control feelings that make us feel in love and that we have a cause worth pursuing. Once you "sink into marriage" and the uncertainty goes away, the "feelings of love" often follow.
I have observed that when I back off, she will pursue me some. When she does that, it feels good! Historically I would try to encourage that with positive feedback and that would instantly make her stop. I've learned to ignore it / not comment on it and just enjoy it.
Like I say though, if I withdraw too much, then she also withdraws. It's like tuning a drip feed to be just the right amount.
I'm not taking it down to match hers so it will be equal, I'm trying to get my desires for feeling wanted and needed satisfied. If that's not going to happen through sex, let's see how else it can be addressed.
Accuray
FWIW, the "Passion Trap" also says that when you have a WAS you feel more in love with them after the bomb drops than you did before. This is because you're suddenly back to out of control. As you get back in control through reconciliation, those hugely passionate in-love feelings diminish. Definitely interesting, I do feel I went through that.
I've read some of what you're saying and I get your approach.
What a ridiculously strange species we are. Really.
I'll second that. No one told me the ride was going to be this crazy.
Have you had any help from a DB coach lately? There's a lot of analysis and theory going on, but are there any small concrete things that you do that help? Do you have a solutions journal to track what works?
BTW I think the alpha beta ratings stuff can be completely off in some situations, as you believe it is in yours. In mine, I was simply not getting my emotional needs met (my love tank was on empty in 5LL lingo) - even though my H is attractive, masculine, macho, successful, confident, and many other traits I admire and respect. If I felt that there was an implied ultimatum that I should "step up" or risk losing him, I'd have been extremely pissed and our problems with ML would have been even greater. That idea has to be handled soooooo sensitively. Anyway, I don't think it applies to you.
I don't want to be a downer but you're talking about making lifelong sacrifice of your needs in order to enable her to not make any effort at all. People have divorced for less good reasons than that. Are you certain that your kids would be with her? Best off with her? How are your D's learning to be confident sexual beings (later, much later...) with her insisting on not getting healthy? Just asking, but if the family breaks up because she's not willing to make any effort to get help, could, should they stay with you?
I have a close relative who did not get primary custody of her children in her divorce.
Just some random thoughts, wishing I had advice for you but there are only questions.
Is there anything we can do for you right now? Obviously we can't make your decision for you. You're welcome to vent, of course. And you have my sincere sympathy and understanding.
Just seeing if there's anything else? I'm sure it will be day-by-day for you, but we're here for you if you need something.
Have you had any help from a DB coach lately?
Not for a while. I felt the DB coach took me as far as she could. When I told the DB coach that my W understood my LL but refused to speak it she basically said "that [censored] for you, you need to learn to accept that or leave". The DB coach was great at getting us piecing, but not as helpful for the long term challenges that characterize our relationship.
I then went to a series of MC's, I felt the last one was really good, but once again, there's only so much to be done if W says changes on her part are off the table and she's not going to work on anything. She doesn't say that from a position of stubborn malice, she says it from a position of having accepted herself and her limitations, and not feeling that she can improve them.
There's a lot of analysis and theory going on, but are there any small concrete things that you do that help? Do you have a solutions journal to track what works?
I'm putting the theory into practice, and I am observing what works. When I went "no sex" I felt really good but over time things got bad because my W was very put out by that. As I've been backing off pursuit I've been feeling better, and I think W has been feeling less pressure, but like I say it's a tightrope where she'll panic and withdraw, or get upset and her bad mood will start pursuing behaviors on my part. I guess the point is that I am learning, I'm figuring it out, it's just not easy or straightforward, it's very delicate.
BTW I think the alpha beta ratings stuff can be completely off in some situations, as you believe it is in yours. In mine, I was simply not getting my emotional needs met (my love tank was on empty in 5LL lingo) - even though my H is attractive, masculine, macho, successful, confident, and many other traits I admire and respect.
Yes, you would have to read the book to really figure out what the author says about it. It's easy to draw the wrong conclusion that he's advocating that everyone should be more of a caveman. That's not what he's saying at all. He's basically saying that the forces of sexual attraction are not necessarily aligned with the traits that make a good husband and father. There is an awareness to be gained about what drives those different forces, and how they best need to be balanced to yield a satisfying marriage. Like anything else, it's a good data point, but not a panacea.
I don't want to be a downer but you're talking about making lifelong sacrifice of your needs in order to enable her to not make any effort at all. People have divorced for less good reasons than that.
It's admittedly easy to read that she's making no effort at all. I don't think that's fair, she's definitely making some effort. She's not cold to me, she's not nasty, she's not hard to live with. Overall she's still a good partner. If we were running a business she'd be a great partner to have. She's just not making an effort in the things that matter most to me, which is different than making no effort at all.
I'm also aware that the "package" that comes with W in terms of intact family and finances is attractive, I would take a serious lifestyle hit, and right now I really like my lifestyle. If I were in my 20's with no kids and was just starting out, the decision landscape would be much different. That's not to say I feel trapped, I don't. It's just a more difficult landscape, that's all.
Are you certain that your kids would be with her? Best off with her?
I do believe she's a good mother. I'm not perfect either, and it's really the counterbalance between us that make us good parents. The kids would not be better off with either of us individually. The union is better than the sum of the parts.
How are your D's learning to be confident sexual beings (later, much later...) with her insisting on not getting healthy? Just asking, but if the family breaks up because she's not willing to make any effort to get help, could, should they stay with you?
Do you really learn to be a sexual being from your parents or do you more or less figure that out on your own? I certainly didn't see my parents acting sexual as a kid, but I figured out how to be sexual for sure!
Her mood issues and unhappiness are definitely a consideration when I think of her as a solo parent. She's convinced it doesn't effect the kids, but I know it does, I can see it. That said, she's very functional -- she manages it very well. She's smart enough to understand what's happening and controls it pretty well. It's a bit like the "Beautiful Mind" movie where the main character controlled his schizophrenia through force of will. Even though I'm in my mid-40's, it's also scary to me to think of having 3 kids on my own full time.
Just some random thoughts, wishing I had advice for you but there are only questions.
Yes, I'm really struggling with this and trying to get the best possible outcome I can. I really internalized the "no regrets" philosophy. I don't want to look back at my marriage and see a time when I gave up because it was too hard or I didn't have enough energy. I'm going to give it everything I've got and will only give up if it gets too painful or I just feel it's impossible despite everything I've done. I'm not there yet.
Thanks for talking me off the ledge the other day by the way, you're a good friend.
Accuray
Is there anything we can do for you right now? Obviously we can't make your decision for you. You're welcome to vent, of course. And you have my sincere sympathy and understanding.
Just seeing if there's anything else? I'm sure it will be day-by-day for you, but we're here for you if you need something.
I really do enjoy the discussion -- it really helps, so keep throwing in your two cents and give me some things to think about.
It hasn't escaped me that I'm on a board called "Divorce Busting" yet several wise folks here have suggested that maybe I need to exit this marriage. Either I'm being completely unfair to W, or I'm just not smelling the coffee. I don't know which one it is.
Accuray
No, you're probably the best hope for her to have a fulfilling marriage. I've never heard of anyone as understanding and persistently compassionate as you.
I will second /\/\/\ this above. The effort you are putting into this with a seemingly "take it or leave it" attitude from your W is truly commendable. Even if you end up D'g, I believe you will honestly be able to say that you did absolutely everything you could. And that's really all that anyone can expect.
Thank you, you two make me feel good and I need that right now. I appreciate it. Sometimes it's nice to just get support versus advice!
Accuray
A good few days -- the distancing is working, OR I'm just in an upswing. I've way toned down my enthusiasm and ceased virtually all pursuing behaviors, but I'm not going cold.
For instance, I haven't been reaching out to W at all during the day, but if she reaches out to me I'm happy and cheerful. Wednesday night I felt I was going a little too distant, so I gave W a call while I was driving home from work but kept it quick and topical. (drip feed, drip feed)
W is confused and uncomfortable, but I'm not showing any cracks in my demeanor. I'm giving the "I'm happy by myself, if you want to participate great, and if you don't I don't care!"
Last night W made a point of coming to bed early. She started going into the "what's wrong what's wrong" routine. I told her nothing, I've had a great week, talked about all the things that I'm doing that are good, no R talk. She said that I've been acting very distant. I asked her if she's felt expectations or pressure and she said no, so I asked her what the issue is? I'm happy, go with it. She then asked if I wanted to ML and apologized that it had been since last Friday. I said "sure" but didn't put too much into it, and it was pretty good, good turnaround from last time.
A couple disclaimers, I'm on a "low drive" cycle (my sex drive cycles up and down), and my W's mood has been pretty good the last few days. The test on maintaining my distancing will be when I go "high drive" and/or if W's mood deteriorates. If those two coincide it's maximum struggle and pain for me and will be hard to maintain the veneer of "happy".
I'm far from claiming any kind of victory, but I can say that the pursuer distancer chapters of "The Solo Partner" definitely have merit in my sitch and it will just be a function of my discipline how well I can apply them.
Accuray
I think the real irony is that the level of intimacy will go back to what it was before the bomb because that's where things naturally stabilized last time.
Although W says things are so much better now because of what I've done / am doing, the reality is that she doesn't really want that -- the biggest change is that her perspective on the M is different. I guess she didn't feel valued or worthy before, maybe she does now, and that's all she needs -- that underlying knowledge but without necessarily ongoing demonstration.
Definitely interesting to look at what's happened in the rearview. Not so fun when you're in it.
Accuray
Do you have any concern that going back to what it was before will create the same potential for another EA by W?
CV,
It is a risk I can't worry about because I can't live like that. That would lead to jealousy and controlling behavior and I can't do it. All three of the counselors I saw warned me that it's a real risk based on who my W is.
All I can tell you is that if it happens again I'm done and there is no second chance and W knows that. My attitude is that if that's what she wants she should go ahead and do it.
I don't think she will, but I didn't think she would before either. I'm not going to play defence.
Accuray
Grrrr, got home from boys ski weekend with friends and W is in a bad mood. Walking on eggshells again. Maybe I overshot the distancing again and W is in withdrawal or maybe it has nothing to do with me (more likely).
My inclination is to avoid her when she is like this, but maybe I just need to show a little support and then do my own thing, like working on our taxes.
My preference would be to watch an episode of "The Walking Dead" and catch an early bedtime.
Not sure what show of support would be appropriate.
I have not been saying ILY or initiating hugs -- if she does I will reciprocate. Although she did some pursuing last week, she has not said ILY, hug or kiss outside of ML. No kisses during ML either, I've pretty much written kissing off.
Guidance? This is when things get tough, when W is in a mood. I'm not sure how best to navigate it.
Accuray
Accuray
I know you don't necessarily agree with my POV but here it goes just in case it does prove helpful.
I will use numbers to illustrate my point.
Your W for some reason can't or won't give you level 10 emotional support. She can give 5 at most.
On the other hand she claims she doesn't want or deserves anything more than a 7 from you.
Her actions towards you tell me she expects a 10 on your part.
Through your 180's you have stepped up to a 10. Your W stayed at a 5.
Lately in order to get her to reconsider her actions you yourself have dropped to a 5 too.
Your W retaliated by going to 2-3.
Her counterattack is working since you are already second guessing yourself.
You'll back off go back to 10, she'll go back to 5.
If she really wants to get vicious she'll threaten to go WAW again.
My recommendation is to hold on at 5. Five being kinda where you are now. Once she moves to seven go to six, and so on and so forth.
I think you need to make it clear that your love is reserved for those that can and are willing to reciprocate.
Thanks Greenblue,
It was more like she was at 5 and I went to 4, then she briefly went to 6, I came up to 5, and then she went down to 3.
Staying at 5 seems to tell her "you're not worthy" which she internalizes and then withdraws. In your example above, I don't believe she'll go back up if I hold at 5. She'll convince herself it's all her fault, that she's making me miserable, is unworthy, and just won't try. That's her pattern.
That said, I'm going to experiment. I slid a little last night, I gave her a hug before dinner which she didn't really reciprocate. In your example above I will hang out here at 5.
Accuray
FWIW
Consider the fact that her unworthiness may be a form of manipulation. I was reading a blog where the poster said something along the lines of:
You complain about my behavior, which means you are unhappy with me, it saddens me that you are unhappy with me, how dare you make me sad!!
See how she verbally outmaneuvered him?
I get the impression your W pulls the same on you, and distracts you from the true issue at heart. (her behavior).
Thanks Greenblue90,
You complain about my behavior, which means you are unhappy with me, it saddens me that you are unhappy with me, how dare you make me sad!!
1) I don't complain about her behavior
2) She doesn't say "how dare you make me sad", nor does she act like that
I think the dynamic you're talking about is manipulation to your point. Manipulation like that could be intentional or unintentional, but the point of it would be to get certain behavior from me to make W feel the way she wants to feel.
I don't *think* that's what's going on here. The DB coach and the MC/IC's that have gotten involved with the sitch don't feel that's the case, and from my reading and analysis, I don't think that's it either, but I could be too close to it to see it, and I will give it due consideration.
I do acknowledge that W's impression of her own needs doesn't match with her behavior. She thinks she's extremely low maintenance and needs very little. She claims that all she needs is for the people around her to be "ok" and then she's ok. That's who she thinks she is, a caretaker or a peacemaker type. That type doesn't have EA's though, do they? An EA is about your own needs, it's inherently a selfish thing to do.
That's a challenge here -- if you don't acknowledge and/or suppress your own needs (actively or unknowingly), then feel badly as a result of your needs not being met, those who love you have no chance to succeed.
My W's father went through a bankruptcy. At the time he was defaulting on several mortgages. I told him that he really should talk to a lawyer to navigate the best way forward, that he may be able to structure a settlement to come out of it with some assets intact. He claimed he didn't have the money to talk to a lawyer. I told him I would pay for the lawyer, just go talk to one. He never did, he told me he knew exactly what would happen, how the situation would play out, etc. He said he had researched it and he knew best.
It occurred to me that my W is acting the same way -- our marriage came to crisis. I took the initiative to consult specialists, offered to work with W on whatever she needed, have her go to IC herself, etc. but she told me no, she's accepted her position, she understands everything that's going on and why, and she doesn't need any help, or the professionals can't help her anyway. It's kind of a striking parallel.
Quick journal:
W had to pick up D13 last night after dinner, so I did the dishes. W came home and apologized that I was doing the dishes. I told her "I don't mind at all". She said "no, you don't like doing the dishes, you shouldn't have to do them" I told her they need to get done, neither of us should *have* to do them, and I don't mind. It drives me crazy when I'm contributing around the house, listening to music and enjoying myself and she comes in and apologizes, then refuses to accept that I don't mind. What is that?
Later last night she told me she was talking to one of the wives who went on the ski trip with us. The woman was saying how much fun she had and that next year she wants to do it again and rent a big house where we can all stay together. My W told her that I wouldn't be up for that because I like to relax at the end of the day. I like to ski with everyone, but afterwards like to decompress. There may be some truth to that, but I wouldn't have said that to the other woman -- it makes me come across as anti-social. In reality I'd be happy to share a house with them next year, I just wouldn't want to bring W if she's going to have a bad attitude again. I told W I would rent a house with them and she said "I thought you didn't want to go again next year" Did she miss the point? I would LOVE to go skiing for school vacation week again next year, but not if she's going to be like "3 days of rain" the whole time. I just told her we can go somewhere warm instead.
I recently replaced my 13 year old car with a newer 5 year old car. She said the same woman commented that she was surprised I bought the car I did. W told her that "I'm always buying cars"
When W told me that this morning, I told her I was sorry that she feels that way. She told me she was only kidding and went into the "what's wrong what's wrong" routine and just kept staring at me. I told her nothing is wrong, that I gave her the opportunity to weigh in on getting a new car and she agreed it was time. She said she was just kidding and that it was time to get a new car.
I felt like she was making me out to be an ass with this mutual friend and I didn't like it.
She then said "well can I get a hug before I go to work?" I hugged her and she kissed me. (A little pursuing maybe?)
I'm going to keep it at a 5. I don't know why there's so much drama here. I feel like there shouldn't be.
Accuray
Accuray
You dont verbally complain, but physically and emotionally withdraw, and she senses it for what it is a complaint on her.
She also may not verbally say how dare you make me sad. Yet her actions show it.
Her what's wrong routine shows this. She accuses you of not accepting who she is, while at the same time glossing over the fact that who she is is not very loving. (or not loving enough for you).
She consistently provides the absolute bare minimums then gets shocked and hurt because your not happy. She then withdraws from you to "teach you a lesson".
She knows she can't or won't reciprocate love, so she shifts the argument to be about you not accepting her rather than her not returning the favor.
That makes you the bad guy, and her the victim looking to be loved for who they are.
She, feels entitled to get her needs met, while not responsible for yours.
Stay at 5.
Doing that is a sort of pseudo cognitive therapy. When she meets your needs, meet hers, when she doesn't, don't. Eventually she may realize that she gets her needs met when she meets yours.
Again don't be surprised if she seriously acts out while you cling to five. She may say and do some very nasty things in order to get you to break and go back to 10. Don't be surprised if she goes as far as seeking another EA or PA.
If she claims you drove her to it, then to me it's clear that it was in retaliation for not giving her 10.
If it gets that bad just remember she doesn't give you 10, but you don't act out because of it. So why should she?
Ok last thing, promise:
You said her "asking if everything was ok" was a routine. To me this says she has a script she can rely on to get her way. (whether done conciously or subconciously).
If I remember right you usually either reassure her you are ok, or you tell her the truth to which she then "gets sad about" (IMHO a blatant attempt at guilting you).
Whether my analysis is wrong or right just consider this. If she does a set of actions often enough that you see it as routine then she has to be getting something out of it. Otherwise why would she do it again and again.
Yes the apologizing and asking what's wrong is a pattern. If she keeps at it long enough, she convinces me something must be wrong and we eventually discuss that, so what I've "trained" her is that if I don't offer something up it's because I'm hiding something.
I caught onto that and have NOT been offering up a "what's wrong" in response. Instead I'll just change the subject and talk about something which makes me happy and that has the effect of not seeming like something is wrong!
Crazy, in my situation some of the things I'm doing are the opposite of what MC 101 would tell you to do. I think it's kind of funny that way. "Be less intimate, if something is wrong don't talk about it, don't look to work through things together, just figure out how to deal with them on your own, etc. etc."
That's the last type of marital advice you'd expect to receive. It's definitely the graduate course.
Accuray
"Doing that is a sort of pseudo cognitive therapy. When she meets your needs, meet hers, when she doesn't, don't. Eventually she may realize that she gets her needs met when she meets yours."
This is key. One golden rule: never be more into an R than your romantic partner.
If you practice it, you learn it's value and gain strength and a GReATER capacity for I timacy
Thanks Oldtimer,
That's kind of like "relationship chicken" isn't it? Being the last one to be intimate? The challenge would be that if you both play that game you don't have much of a relationship. I assume the goal is to take turns leading and establish balance.
Accuray
Some guys will go as far as claiming to always provide a little less in order to make her chase you.
The key phrase here is emotional investment.
In a lot of WAW cases the LBS is taken for granted because the WAW can't or won't invest themselves in the relationship.
In some cases they don't have to, the LBS does a lot of the heavy lifting.
If I remember right a study showed that partners who felt they worked hard for their relationship were less likely to leave.
Accuray
I think you two are already playing, chicken. She just wins so consistently you didn't even see it.
I think the difference is being how you choose to play the game. You can do it without being nasty, or vindictive.
Just return the amount of love she gives to you.
I would not call it Playing chicken. I would call it respecting the space the other person would like to have in the R. Trust me, this creates more room for intimacy, not less. And it is not a game or manipulation. It is a way of being with others so that everyone has space to know what they want. Of course there is give and take in terms of who tries to change the R in different ways.
Look, you ask someone to go steady, they say no. Three options:
1) end the r
2) go steady by yourself
3) back off a step and see where things go
If you reject (1), (3) is the clear winner in terms of treating all involved well and creating opportunities for a deeper R.
Accuray, I pulled this from another post...
One of my best learnings through this is that I am good enough, and it's my job to convince myself of that. It's not W's job to tell me that I'm worthy or show me that I'm worthy, it's my job to BE worthy, and at that point I don't care if W appreciates that or not.
"BE" is a verb and therefore an action word. I believe you can choose to be "worthy" just like you can choose to be "happy," and do so in spite of your circumstances. At the same time, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting your circumstances to match what you've chosen to be. ie. you can BE happy, but skiing sure contributes to that in a nice way. So part of choosing to BE happy, would include choosing to DO things that contribute to that. ie. going skiing instead of sitting in a dark corner hitting your thumb repeatedly with a hammer.
So, let's say you want to BE a good H, which I believe you do. By definition, a H is a complementary relationship to a W, it's not just a standalone like be happy or be worthy, so you can't just BE a good H unless there's also a W. And say your definition of being a good H includes DOING things that a good H would do, which I believe it does.
How do you address that desire to be a good H when your W does not facilitate? Forgetting the fact that she doesn't appreciate it, but that she completely rejects it in some ways (eg. kissing, hugging.) Of course, there are many other aspects to being a good H, such as fidelity, financial support, handyman stuff, etc., I'm not trying to discount those.
But would you BE a better H with someone that let you express yourself freely? Does your withholding due to the pursuer/distancer dance you're forced into make you less of a good H? Or perhaps it makes you an even better H because you're going so far above and beyond.
Is your perspective of your being a good H changed because of your circumstances?
Good stuff Crazyville. By stepping back I've gotten the opportunity to observe where W sets the bar in the relationship. She doesn't want no hugging or no kissing at all, she just wants less than I would. She wants a little. She's comfortable when she believes that nothing is expected of her.
I think I often give the impression that she's fairly cold and heartless. That's not true, she doesn't treat me badly. She does care for me, and does want me to be happy -- I believe that. She's also stubborn, sad, proud, and unwilling to change.
When I originally got the bomb, what I interpreted for myself is that I hadn't been a good enough husband. Many of the things I did to address that would look like the right things to do on paper, but were the wrong things in this circumstance given who W was.
When I do things for her and she hasn't been doing anything for me, it makes her feel badly. I can see that. That doesn't make her try to reciprocate because she thinks she can't compete, instead, she just feels badly. When my efforts didn't seem to be making things any better, I would get sad and frustrated.
So in answer to your question, "being a good husband" has a certain meaning to me. "Being a good husband to my wife" has a different set of requirements because of who my wife is. My second IC told me that I would be considered a "dream husband" by most women because of the way I communicate, my self-confidence, happiness, etc. That reinforced for me that I should pursue my own "good husband MAP". That was wrong according to my W's needs.
During this adjustment phase, being a good husband to my wife doesn't feel like being a good husband according to my definition. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm not doing the best I can do in the relationship, and therefore I don't feel good about my efforts. I feel like I'm playing a game versus just living.
I do feel I've gone above and beyond. I feel good about that. Right now I'm spinning a bit, I'm outside of my comfort zone and outside of what I know. That's making me feel badly.
According to "The Solo Partner", when you change things up, the change will make you feel worse just because things are different. It says that you will often get along with your spouse worse than you did before you enacted the change.
The will often lead you to conclude that your changes are causing more problems and you therefore revert to your prior behavior. I've been tempted to do this, but because I now have the knowledge, I'm gritting my teeth and trying really hard to get through what I'm viewing as a transition period to see what comes out on the other side.
Honestly, some days I feel really good. Other days I feel tortured, those are usually the days I post here. I'm feeling really badly today.
But would you BE a better H with someone that let you express yourself freely? Does your withholding due to the pursuer/distancer dance you're forced into make you less of a good H?
That's a "grass is greener" perspective I've chosen not to take. Have I been thinking about leaving? Yes. I'm trying to get into the best shape I can get into for two reasons -- to help with how I feel about myself in the current R, and secondly that if it doesn't work out I'm positioned the best I can be to find something new.
That said, I have a lot of fears related to leaving -- welfare of the kids, financial concerns, lifestyle, loneliness, etc. etc. I have also embraced the following:
-- We are attracted to people who "abuse us" in patterns we are familiar and comfortable with
-- We train others how to treat us
-- Our relationships are a reflection of who we are in many ways
Therefore, I'm not confident that my situation would be wildly better with someone new. Many of the same challenges would probably resurface, the old ones with W wouldn't go away because she'll still be in my life, and whatever new woman I were to get involved with would probably contribute some new issues of her own.
Therefore, I don't think leaving is the answer until such time as I have grown beyond seeking the same patterns of abuse and have gotten to a place where I'm not going to be responsible for the same issues in the future that I have been responsible for in the past.
I do realize that in many ways "it's all about me", and that's why I don't think that leaving in the answer right now.
What's tough is that I don't feel safe in this relationship when I take my foot off the gas because I got cheated on. Although low effort and higher distance may be what W wants, that feels to me like driving along the edge of a cliff without a guardrail. That will most likely get better. I think I'm doing very well in terms of not snooping, and not worrying about what W is doing on her business trips, etc. If she wants to cheat on me again, go for it. If I find out, I'm done. There's solace in that, in some ways it would be a relief.
Accuray
Therefore, I don't think leaving is the answer until such time as I have grown beyond seeking the same patterns of abuse and have gotten to a place where I'm not going to be responsible for the same issues in the future that I have been responsible for in the past.
I do realize that in many ways "it's all about me", and that's why I don't think that leaving in the answer right now.
Two things:
1. When you say "it's all about me," are you simply acknowledging your role/contribution and working on that, or are you addressing a selfishness in your R?
2. When you say "until such time," is it because that's your future plan or are you simply considering/doubtful/questioning the viability of living this way long-term? Or perhaps there really is nothing significant to the statement other than face value.
WRT selfishness, virtually anything we do can be spun as being selfish. i.e. if I buy you lunch, you could argue that I only did it because it made me feel good and that was selfish. Therefore, I think the test is if you're more selfish than "normal" and I don't think I am. If anything I think I'm more giving than normal, but once again you could spin that as being selfish because I like to be acknowledged.
I had an interesting back and forth with Oldtimer on this thread related to giving W an O. Oldtimer said that was selfish if W wasn't looking for an O -- I understand that.
1) When I say "it's all about me", what I meant was that I acknowledge that working on my own issues is more important than worrying about W's issues. Does that make sense? That's all I meant.
2) "Until such time" means that I know if I leave now with my personal journey incomplete I'm likely to do more harm than good and likely find myself back in the same place with someone new. Once I achieve a new level of personal growth and acceptance, I will reassess my decisions.
Make sense?
Yup, perfect sense. Just clarifying. The typed word is not always the best mode for communication (which I've always found ironic.)
One of my fantasies is that someone who has read my sitch and is well-schooled in DB would have a heart-to-heart with W and then 2x4 me where I'm being an idiot.
I also think it would be pretty cool if she were posting on here and I found it and was able to read it from her perspective. I don't think she's interested in this kind of introspection, it's not something she'd do, but I would love to read it, because I really want to know what she *really* thinks.
According to her, she just doesn't spend any time thinking about this stuff. Because I spend so much time thinking about it, that's hard for me to identify with. It's hard to know if that's true, or she just doesn't want to share.
I distinctly remember that when she got really mad and was screaming at me after the bomb, my overriding reactions were relief and happiness because I was getting a genuine response from her and knew exactly where I stood and what she was thinking. Over the course of our marriage, that's only happened once.
When she gets really upset she's told me that I smile and that drives her crazy. I didn't even know I was doing it, but I've since learned it's based on the relief from feeling I've broken through. That's kind of sad isn't it?
Accuray
Sad, but completely understandable. We had a MC once that described exactly what you're talking about. He said he had had a heated argument with his W, and when he was done, he said he felt almost like it was better than sex. I completely get it. H thought he was completely nuts and still does.
I've also thought how wonderful it would be to find that my H was posting on here, so I could read his thoughts. AND the responses to it. But he'd be good for about a post a week. He's more like your W in that respect.
I'm not sure if it's been a good thing or a bad thing for me to find this site. In one respect, I get to hear insight from other H's. On the other hand, it just emphasizes how lacking that is in our R.
I'm currently thinking more is going to come out the more I back off. The trick is to give space without withdrawing. That's how I'm thinking about it.
What H has to give you may just be "crowded out" right now because of all the blocking cr@p that has accumulated between you.
Initially as you start to remove roadblocks, another block will just take it's place. It would imagine that for both of us it's going to take a while.
Accuray
Pursuit and distance -- good stuff! I've been distancing for a couple weeks now, although it feels like longer. One impact is that I just feel like I care less -- maybe that's why I'm not posting as much.
In any case, W has been generally happier, although last night she seemed to suddenly notice how different things have been. When we were in bed she tried to pull me into an R talk. I maintained that nothing is wrong, I'm happy, talked about what I've been doing that I've been enjoying etc.
She said it feels like I've been withdrawing. I asked her if she's felt I've been expecting things from her the way she did in the past. She said "no". I asked if I've been making her feel inadequate. She said "no". I asked her if there was anything she'd like to share. She was quiet for a while, then just said that I've been on a different tack, she's noticed it and doesn't know what's going on.
In the past I would have explained it, but last night I did not -- I just stuck to "everything is fine".
I would say that not only am I not pursuing, I don't feel like pursuing, and that's a pretty big change. What I've been trying to do is "mirroring". If she hugs me, I'll hug her. If she kisses me, I'll kiss her. If she says ILY, I'll say ILY, etc. Basically I'm letting her set the bar, and I'm trying to deliver at that level.
I have noticed that she's been more affectionate than she was a few weeks ago, but we're less physically affectionate than we were when I was "driving".
I am concerned about the "withdrawing" comment and here's where I need some guidance. (Captain? Cadet? someone with distancing experience?)
Distancing and withdrawing can look very similar I think, but they're not really the same. How do I distance, but not make W think I'm withdrawing? Any advice on how to walk that line?
Have I gone too far to the side of not initiating anything, or am I just in a transition phase and need to hold course?
From my perspective, W said she wanted more distance than I did, she wanted me to have no expectations, and to treat anything she did for me as a gift. She's got that now, but doesn't seem happy with it. Is this a "be careful what you wish for", or is it more an issue that she knows deep down I'm not happy here and that bothers her?
She really wanted me to talk about my feelings last night, but still wouldn't talk about her own. I believe that she's used to "mirroring" and since I'm not leading, she assumes I don't want affection and therefore isn't willing to lead.
It will be interesting to see if she steps up or gives up. So far she's been stepping up a little, but is clearly torn.
Accuray
Accuray
I'm currently doing what you are doing with mirroring, and tit for tat. Even the part about not engaging in unproductive R talk. I'm also getting similar results to you. I think it's because like I had said before she is used to givin you 5 for your 10.
I think one of two things will happen, either she'll escalate affection on her own slowly, which will allow you to escalate with her, or she'll confront you for not returning a 10 for her 5.
If she reall thinks its an issue, and wants to talk about it, it's your chance to let her know that you too feel like you are not getting enoug, and want to work to make sure both your needs get met.
Just be aware she may just say she'd rather get divorced than give more than 5. Well if it gets to then IMHO it's decision time for you accept an unequal affection exchange arrangement or move on.
Btw did you see the MMSL blog today? The story in the entry shares a lot of similarities with yours.
Just to clarify:
By her bringing it up I meant she specifically says you are not meeting her needs.
When she asks what's wrong, she's really fishing for criticisms from you, so she can do her routine of getting emotionally upset for not making you happy, and then making you look like the bad guy, for being "a demanding meanie!"
Greenblue90,
How is your sitch going? I asked you before and I don't think you replied. Do you have an active thread somewhere?
I appreciate your input, the only place I disagree is I don't think I should tell W she's not meeting my needs either -- that would be the complaint she's looking for. It also implies that my behavior is a form of punishment and that's not what I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to back off and give her space to step up. So far that's working, but it's a challenging line to walk without appearing to completely withdraw. I don't think the strategy should ever be verbalized.
Accuray
A, if you're doing the approach in Sole Partner regarding Distancer/Pursuer, it specifically says absolutely do not tell them what you're doing.
Thanks CV, my sitch isn't as dramatic as the Solo Partner, so I'm using a modified approach. That said, I agree, I will NOT explain what I'm doing.
Accuray
I think by being present and inviting her to share you demonstrated distancing rather than withdrawing. Leave it alone.
And, if you want things to really change, you're going to have to create MORE space than she wants, not exactly as much as she wants.
Thanks Oldtimer,
Uncharted territory for me but so far I can see the benefits. I did create more distance than she wanted and that's what precipitated her to get upset and ask for the R discussion.
Does that mean I take a step to reduce the distance, or maintain the uncomfortable (for her) distance?
The devil is in the details. For a period of time, we were chatting via Skype daily to check in and always ended with an ILY of some kind. I stopped initiating the Skype entirely unless I need something concerning the kids that is urgent. When she Skype's me, I'm friendly and will engage with her. I've noticed that she will initiate 2-3 times per week (versus every day).
I also stopped ending with any kind of "ILY" and instead go with the "see you later" or similar. She has given me an ILY type sentiment once over the course of three weeks, but I think the fact that I'm not doing it bothers her. She has also said "ILY" a couple times in person which she virtually never used to do when I was pushing for more intimacy, unless in response to something I said first.
One of the R books I read also said it's a great habit to hug for at least 6 seconds before you leave for work in the morning and when you get home at night. That practice of maintaining at least 6 seconds tends to reconnect you, release any accumulated small resentments, and gets your head back in the game. That practice definitely had benefits for me in terms of keeping me connected. As part of the distancing exercise, I stopped initiating that completely, both at the beginning of the day and the end. W has not picked it up -- she might have hugged me once or twice in the morning over the course of two weeks.
Here's what's trickier -- we've made it a point to go to bed at the same time. Overall I think this is great, because I'm a night owl and it forces me to go to bed at a reasonable time. We've been hugging before we fall asleep where she lays with her head on my chest. To make that happen, I have to get my arm under her head, so I have to make the first move. Now if I don't make that move, she assumes something is *really* wrong -- to her it's like I left and am sleeping in the guest room, so she'll stay on her side of the bed and won't be able to fall asleep, and that makes me unable to sleep.
Am I doing myself more harm by continuing to initiate that, or by blowing it up without a good explanation (i.e. I don't feel like doing that anymore). That's one area where I'm stuck because it's a significant act of physical connection that happens every day. What's your guidance? Stop or continue, and if stop, how should that be explained?
Finally ML -- one of my boundaries has been that we will ML at least once per week, and I would prefer twice. She gets to pick when and initiate. Should I drop that to further increase distance, or keep that in place? Obviously I like the frequency.
Thanks!
Accuray
One other thought, some of the things we used to do that we're not doing now -- I can't tell if she's not doing them because she doesn't want to, or she thinks I don't want to.
Does it matter?
Accuray
Hi Accuray,
This may be a distinction w/o a difference. My tske on what you've presented as a difference between withdrawing and giving devloping space may not appear that different from your W's POV.
I get the no pursuit aspect and that is fine. If I follow your thinking, wihdrawing is more akin to intentionally witholding (as in there may be a "request" for affection and you intentionally withhold w/ or w/o malice). Space or distance would look considerably less "needy."
Don't overthink this. Don't overread this. All these various books may be interesting and useful exercises in self evaluation and introspection. But at the end of the day, remember what you what your goals are and what you are willing to settle for (there is even an acronym for that...BATNA...Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement).
But then again, what do I know? I'm only a few weeks away from 15 years w/o sex.
The Captain
Giving up ML when it's something you want is like cutting off your nose to spite your face, don't you think? That might go for the hugging before sleep as well.
I completely get the difficulty of your sitch. I do wonder, is the withdrawal really what you want? I would relate it to a friend that never calls you, and you're always calling them. It's not right, but if you enjoy the friendship, is it still worth it? Would the principle of them not ever calling you be worth dropping the friendship?
I sort of feel like that's where you are with your wife. You did have skypes and ILY's everyday. Now maybe 2-3 times with her initiating. Is that a success? You used to have a 6-second hug am/pm but now you don't. Is that good? Her not initiating it may be a blow to the ego, sure. But it's not rejection, just lack of initiation. If you recognize that that is just "her," then I'm not sure you're doing yourself any favors.
Accuray
I regularly post at slj.proboards.com that's where I update my sitch. Generally speaking I'm running the MAP and my wife is way more affectionate for it. I do encounter the occassional hiccup, but things have been going well for me. At this point my W is asking I be patient with her, rather than pushing away so it's a definite improvement. On a personal level I'm really sold on "married man game".
As for the speititng your face by cutting your nose I don't agree. Call me crazy but I believe that at some level there is a pursuit dynamic in all relationships. Some like to pursue some like to be pursued. Many believe that generally women like to pursue, and not to be pursued. I do realize this is a potentially dangerous generalization, but I can say that at least in my case my wife likes to be reassured of my love, but does not actually like to be pursued.
So Ive been working on not pursuing which she sees as needy, desperate, and loser like. Instead I've been letting her come to me on her own terms.
It also works on the concept that people value what they work for, so if your spouse never has to work for your affection or even reciprocate equally then they will value the affection you give less. (since you give it for free or at a greatly discounted rate, like I said before a 5 for you 10.)
Which is fine, if you're content with the amount of pursuit they are willing to do. If they only need a 2, you're only going to get a 2. That's a real bummer if you need a 5.
Great stuff, thanks to all! CV I wrestle with the points you make every day.
Captain, I hear you -- just today I was thinking "why am I acting this way if its not how I want to act? I'm not being true to myself."
That said, I was heading down a path that was feeling more or less unsustainable before. I also understand about the need to accept that things will be worse before they are better.
I do think I should stick to the distancing course for now -- I am seeing results and the space is letting me see things from a different perspective. W may lose me. I just need some guidance on how to give enough but not too much. Its awkward and different, I've always been a cards on the table guy.
This is painful and difficult, but definitely better in some key ways.
Accuray
I don't think I can offer any guidance. Your sitch is just really tough. As long as you see progress toward what you're working for, then I'm happy for you.
Yeah it's tough. Went to dinner and a movie last night with W. This morning I'm flying across the country and will be away until Sunday.
We normally ML after a date night provided its not too late, and the resultant brain chemistry typically makes me feel happy and upbeat for several days, it certainly makes traveling easier. When it felt like W wasn't going to go there, I said "how about ML tonight". With no hesitation she said "no" and nothing else. I said "OK", rolled over and had a crappy night of sleep. Woke up early and out.
Normally I would email or call about now to try to patch things up, but today I'm just going to let it hang. The question is, should I call tonight with an inconsequential upbeat conversation, or not call? If not call, should I call tomorrow night or just wait for W to reach out?
W said she engaged in an affair because she didn't feel connected. I'm sure I risk recreating that feeling, but that's not my responsibility alone right?
Reread the part of the Solo Partner about how painful it is personally when you enact one sided relationship changes. Definitely true.
Accuray
(Thanks again to everyone who chimed in -- if I didn't respond directly it still helps, don't feel I didn't read or don't appreciate it, I do, please keep posting)
Accuray
No I think you need to stay the course for the moment.
Have you ever considered that maybe she has lost a little bit of her control.
Even though now she is more in CONTROL.
I do agree that she is fishing and TESTING your changes.
She may not believe that they are REAL.
Possibly she can not BLAME you for any feelings inside of her.
Until she is ALL IN on your marriage I am not sure that anything you DO is going to matter.
I am glad you enjoyed the SOLO PARTNER, I do believe that MWD's theories are based upon some of this.
Thanks Cadet. She is not "out" now, but does want more distance than I do.
How will I know when she is all in measured against her limits versus against my desires? Is that a meaningful distinction?
How will I know when she is all in
When or if that happens you will have no doubts.
But if you are looking for speed you will fail.
Just sit tight and GIVE HER a chance to choose to make the first move to "patch things up." I don't guess you've given her that opportunity very often when you get uncomfortable with the distance....
You are right Oldtimer, I'm generally the one to patch things up, she's both stubborn and a conflict avoider so she will just bottle it up and move on as if nothing is wrong.
Maybe you can help me with how I talk myself out of things -- the other perspective is that it hadn't been that long since we ML last time, we didn't discuss this in advance, and she should be allowed to say no if she wants to. I asked for sex, she said "no" and then I punished her by disengaging.
That's how I start to think and then I will reach out. Help me with that.
Accuray
No call, email or text from W
aww, hang in there accuray!
just catching up on your thread, and wanted to let you know i can so relate. wrt my situation with h, i'm usually the one initiating things and wanting more contact/affection/etc. as much as i try to have no expectations, i get a little bummed out too when theres been no emails/calls/texts, etc. the old me would have probably called or emailed after a certain period of time.
the way i've been talking myself out of initiating contact/pursuing is by rereading the excellent advice you've given me on my thread. i've printed it out and refer back to it each time I feel like backtracking, and it's been really helpful.
Sorry, I know it's not the same, but we're here for you.
Thanks CV, I needed that! Mncwing, it's important to understand that I no longer have a WAW, so my rules are slightly different from yours. My W is making an effort. The issue is that I'm hurt by what's happened and now want a more intimate marriage than my W does,
Tonight I called to talk to the kids after dinner. I was in a car with a friend of mine. W got on the phone after I talked to the kids and seemed perturbed. She asked me how my friend was doing since she knows his marriage is in trouble too. I couldn't talk about that because he was sitting right there. She made a snippy comment about the fact that I couldn't talk and that was that.
Accuray
She made a snippy comment about the fact that I couldn't talk and that was that.
Accuray
Yes, well, that kind of approach seems to work very well for her. Of course it's her go to move.
Thanks Oldtimer,
It will be interesting when I return home. One painful part of this is that I worked so hard to get the marriage back on track and now I feel like I'm undoing that work that was so hard won.
Her explanation for her infidelity was that I was withdrawn and she didn't feel connected. I took that to heart and made sure to be connected. When she didn't step up to meet me, I was disappointed.
I do realize that although she *said* those were the reasons for her infidelity, it's equally if not more likely that she just got an opportunity she chose to pursue and everything else is just noise.
Reading "The Solo Partner" underscored for me that our prior marriage was in fact quite good, we didn't have the animosity and chronic problems that seem to plague many relationships. If the marriages I read about in the solo partner are an "8" in terms of bad, we were probably a 4 at our worst.
I hate to tear down what I've rebuilt, but I do see that it wasn't a foundation that was going to last.
Accuray
I'd very seriously doubt that any marriage prior to an affair was quite good. I'd take very seriously W's complaint that she didn't feel connected.
However, one doesn't feel connected by having a partner "patch things up" simply to make things easier and demonstrate no backbone. One doesn't feel connected through needy calls that are really all about the other person.
I suggest:
(1) Warmly embracing W, tell her how genuinely you are pleased to see her, that you missed her. Brush her hair. Show her that you *see* her as a person. Bring her a gift from the airport that demonstrates you *see* her and know her.
(2) Very directy tell her (BUT NOT THIS INSTANT): "The other night when I suggested making love, your response really didn't work for me. It really hurt because I felt rejected as a person and as someone who loves you. I believe we both deserve more care, love, and tenderness with respect to lovemaking."
Thanks Oldtimer! Tell me more about my lack of backbone.
(1) This made me laugh because W hates it when I touch her hair, but point taken. Also I have given her plenty of small gifts that tend to make her feel worse because she doesn't do that type of thing for me. The gifts didn't seem to be doing anything but to demonstrate pursuing, so I've knocked it off. I would like to bring her a gift, I enjoy doing it, but it seems counter productive.
(2) With this one, I really like how you've worded it. We've already had that discussion. She said "how would you like me to respond?" I told her, "You can say yes, you can say no, or you can offer a counter-proposal. If you say no, I will tend to feel rejected and that feels badly. If at that point you kiss me, hug me, or otherwise demonstrate a loving gesture it will help." -- she heard that, but she doesn't do it.
Oldtimer, did you read "The Solo Partner" and what did you think of it? Do you think my current strategy of applying distance is misguided? What would you advise?
Accuray
Do you think my current strategy of applying distance is misguided? What would you advise?
Just be STILL, do not apply diststance or pursuit, I understand that is hard.
Have you ever fed a squirrel?
You hold out you hand with food and hope he eats it.
No sudden movements towards or away.
It takes a long time for them to pursue you.
That is ultimately what you want.
Accuray:
What strikes me is that you keep running into this in one way or another. It is not only the "health" of your relationship with your wife that is defined by your sex life...it is your definition of who you are that is tied very strongly toyour sex life.
This is a "problem" that is going to keep recurring. What I see is this: if your sex life isn't going somewhat in a direction that you think that it "should" even after all you've been through that somehow you are, and I'm choosing a strong word intentionally, a "failure."
At age 48, I was 4 years into my current drought and although the initial upset had diminished somewhat, I look at what I wrote in my journals at that time and I was clearly very upset at the lack of sex and what it "meant."
So, what does it mean about you? What meaning do you apply to yourself, not your marriage, not your wife, not your kids, or anything else?
That meaning, whatever it is that you apply to yourself on the subject of your sex life is precisely the difficulty you keep running into. You keep running into this definition of your self that is so tied to your sex life and that keeps you "miserable" (in that you feel the need to patch stuff up, you don't sleep well, etc).
It is difficult to undo this definition of yourself because you've set your life up to support that way of looking at yourself. And as long as you continue to define yourself this way, you will keep bumping into this problem.
How you undo that and redefine yourself is the challenge.
The Captain
Re the backbone --
A poor word choice -- it might sound like I mean you should get entrenched in a position and be inflexible or unwilling to reach out. I don't.
Suppose there is a child who acts out, the parent reacts badly, the child sulks until the parent patches thing up by giving the child a piece of candy. The child gets very good at sulking. The parent tries to hold out, but pays in the end by putting up with the sulking for a very long time and ending it with only double the candy. In this case, "giving in" or "having no backbone" does not improve the relationship, indeed, it reinforces unhealthy patterns.
Better would be to (1) stop reacting badly -- the parent needs to quit playing the same role in the pattern, and (2) do something different than battling wills and giving candy in reaction to sulking, like, for instance, detaching from the sulking, go about business as usual, be normal and positive, etc...
To me, it seems you and W have a similar dynamic going, you ask for sex, W responds in an unloving manner, you react badly, she sulks, you give her the mea culpa candy of being the bad guy, rinse, repeat.
The first thing to do is to stop reacting badly to quit playing your role in the pattern. Make a list of different things to do: take some space and self sooth, make a flirtatious joke about next time, suggest an alternative like a cuddle. Maybe only the first of these works, who knows? Experiment and find something that does.
The second thing is to detach from the sulking and leave it alone. Go about business as usual, be positive and upbeat. Detach. It is HER sulking, you needn't own it.
As for the gift, if she doesn't like gifts, then I agree, it isn't a great idea. If you had amazing hot sex before you left and a great trip, how would you be when you got home? Do something good for yourself, get in a good frame of mind, detach and be positive. Think of your three favorite things about W for 2 minutes before you walk in the door.
Nope, I haven't read that book.
Hi Accuray
I admit to not having read all your posts - so forgive me if I get anything wrong. I dip in and out of your postings and I get a little bit frustrated by the woe is me attitude. However, I accept that you are also coming to terms wit the fact that your wife may just not have the capacity to engage in "love" in the way you, and many mature people, want it.
Two reading suggestions. Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch, is a book that is talked about on and off with fashionably regularlity around here. I read it 7 or 8 years ago and to be honest, I didn't get it. I'm reading it again now, as a 41 year old woman in an extremely satisfying sexual relationship ... and all the pegs have fallen into place for me. The most fundamental thing I've learned from re-reading Schnarch is the concept that in order to become an amazing sexual partner, you need to be in a position to differetiate yourself from the relationship, in a similar way to the way we "detach" when DBing.
I'm not going to try to explain it, because I won't do it justice - but seriously, read the book, not just for the dirty bits!!! It's gold.
Second, and a little more controversially, read this post from the MLC forum
MLC or Passive Aggressive Narcissism there could be something in it for you. or not!
Good luck.
PS - Hi Captain ... gorgeous pragmatic advice as usual - but sometimes I wish you'd loosen up and have some fun!!!!! You always sound so serious
Hope you are well. V
Hi Walking,
Sorry for the "woe is me attitude".
I did read Passionate Marriage. I think it did me more harm than good because it got my hopes up for how good things could be. I started down the road of doing the exercises and reading parts of it to W and she didn't want any part of it.
I'll read your MLC or Passive Aggressive Narcissism post.
Accuray
Accuray:
What strikes me is that you keep running into this in one way or another. It is not only the "health" of your relationship with your wife that is defined by your sex life...it is your definition of who you are that is tied very strongly to your sex life.
Captain, most of your analysis I agree with, this part I don't. I feel like I have a decent handle on this at this point. My core "neediness" if you want to call it that is to feel wanted and needed in this relationship. Sex is a proxy for that, but would decrease in importance (and does) when I'm getting that met in other ways.
At one point after the affair I was fixated on the sex life. That was after reading SSM and more significantly "Passionate Marriage", which insists that a great sex life is essential to a great marriage. At that point, I was hell bent on trying to have the best sex life I could have.
After much therapy and MC, I realize that I'm never going to have that with W, that's not her and she's not willing to work on it, so I have taken my foot off the gas on that front and have been working on accepting what I am getting.
I admit I had a bad reaction to the "no" before I left on this trip, but I hadn't gotten a hard "no" in a long time, and I hadn't been feeling very connected to (or pursued by) W for some time. Therefore I believe I lead you to focus on a symptom rather than what's *really* bothering me.
This is a "problem" that is going to keep recurring. What I see is this: if your sex life isn't going somewhat in a direction that you think that it "should" even after all you've been through that somehow you are, and I'm choosing a strong word intentionally, a "failure."
I don't think so, if W doesn't want to have sex with me I don't consider myself to be a failure -- I don't think there is anything wrong with me sexually. I feel sad that things could be better because I'm willing to do whatever work is required but W is not interested in going on that journey with me.
If W stopped having sex with me entirely, I know I would leave versus thinking it was in some way my fault or my deficiency.
At age 48, I was 4 years into my current drought and although the initial upset had diminished somewhat, I look at what I wrote in my journals at that time and I was clearly very upset at the lack of sex and what it "meant."
I believe that MC (and you) helped me get beyond this thinking. I am not fixated on it like I was three months ago.
That meaning, whatever it is that you apply to yourself on the subject of your sex life is precisely the difficulty you keep running into. You keep running into this definition of your self that is so tied to your sex life and that keeps you "miserable" (in that you feel the need to patch stuff up, you don't sleep well, etc).
Yes, it bothers me that I'm married to a woman who doesn't seem to want to be with me as much as I want to be with her -- but that's not just a sexual thing. The sex life is once again just a manifestation of a larger trend which is the REAL issue. And I do believe that "The Solo Partner" is helping with that. It's a difficult line to walk.
So what am I doing about that? I'm losing weight and getting in shape for me. I'm detaching from W and giving space. With each 5 pounds I lose I feel better and better. I am 100% convinced that if W were to cheat on me again I would have what it takes to walk away.
I also haven't forgotten your advice about setting a timeline. If I'm not feeling better by the end of the year I'm going to go the ultimatum route.
Accuray
Boy Walking, you really tweaked me with the "woe is me" comment. This is board for people with issues right?
Hey, did you see m reply?
Sorry Oldtimer, I saw this and read it. Responses below:
Suppose there is a child who acts out, the parent reacts badly, the child sulks until the parent patches thing up by giving the child a piece of candy. The child gets very good at sulking. The parent tries to hold out, but pays in the end by putting up with the sulking for a very long time and ending it with only double the candy. In this case, "giving in" or "having no backbone" does not improve the relationship, indeed, it reinforces unhealthy patterns.
Better would be to (1) stop reacting badly -- the parent needs to quit playing the same role in the pattern, and (2) do something different than battling wills and giving candy in reaction to sulking, like, for instance, detaching from the sulking, go about business as usual, be normal and positive, etc...
I understand completely what you're saying but I'm not sure how to apply it. I feel like it was me that was sulking after the "no" versus W. I realize I was sulking. It is very hard for me to respond positively when I would really like to have sex and W says "no".
That's not every time I would like sex. Sex drive for me goes in cycles. At some times I don't want it at all. Other times I can take it or leave it, and some times it becomes very important to me. It's the last instance when it's the most difficult to be rejected. In the other cases I can go on my merry way and you'd never see a post about it.
I realize the fact that it's "hard" to respond positively isn't an excuse, and I also realize this is a change I need to make. I am working on it, I'm not there yet. It's a work in process. I have realized that it's easier to let it go if I don't then hug W after the no. That's in "The Solo Partner", if you feel reactive behavior coming on, apply physical distance until it passes. That may appear to W as punishing behavior or sulking when in fact it's coping behavior. At one point I explained that to her.
To me, it seems you and W have a similar dynamic going, you ask for sex, W responds in an unloving manner, you react badly, she sulks, you give her the mea culpa candy of being the bad guy, rinse, repeat.
Not always, since piecing W has usually responded in an "accommodating manner" -- I guess you could construe it as loving as she's doing something she doesn't necessarily want to do
for me. Obviously an accommodating manner is different from an enthusiastic or engaged manner, but it's my challenge to either accept that this is how it is with this woman or leave. MC made that very clear -- there is no changing it, only take it or leave it literally.
The first thing to do is to stop reacting badly to quit playing your role in the pattern. Make a list of different things to do: take some space and self sooth, make a flirtatious joke about next time, suggest an alternative like a cuddle. Maybe only the first of these works, who knows? Experiment and find something that does.
Yes, good advice!
The second thing is to detach from the sulking and leave it alone. Go about business as usual, be positive and upbeat. Detach. It is HER sulking, you needn't own it.
Yes, good advice again. Once again, challenging and a work in process. I have realized this and am progressing on this path.
Nope, I haven't read that book.
The book is great, I recommend it. It talks about "The Pursuer / Distancer Dance" which I very much identified with. To your point, it talks about the fact that we get into patterns in our relationship, and the one feeling the most pain from the pattern needs to be the one to do the work to break it.
I believe we were in this pattern. I wanted more emotional (and physical) intimacy than W. She told MC she wanted more distance in our marriage than I want. This imbalance lead to pursuing behavior on my part. When W wouldn't reciprocate, I would get frustrated, upset, and try harder.
The book says that to break this pattern, I have to stop pursuing and distance. If I distance consistently, either W will start pursuing, or she won't, which would mean she's done with the relationship.
It says that once the pursuer starts to distance, the distancer will wage a no-holds-barred campaign to get the pursuer to pursue again, but once they do, they will start distancing again, and that's the dance. As soon as I start to pull away, W will do just enough to pull me back in, and then retreat again. That pretty much summarizes what's been happening.
The book also says I need to drop my expectations for anything better. It says to assume that W will never be any more loving towards me than she is now. Feel sorry for myself, grieve that fact, get through the pain, and then decide to stay with that reality, or leave. That speaks to acceptance, which is basically the same thing MC told me -- accept things as they are or leave, there is no path to improvement
based on where W is now. He said that W has accepted herself and the relationship, and is therefore not motivated to do anything differently. To try to encourage that will only lead to frustration.
So WRT the advice in the Solo Partner, I cannot continue to want more intimacy than W wants to provide. That is a state of imbalance that is not sustainable. That leads to me feeling like I'm always doing more and not having my efforts reciprocated.
Therefore, I've been distancing, I've been taking things down to her level and seeing if I can be comfortable there. I do not initiate hugging, I do not say "I love you" unless she says it first. I don't have R talks or talk about how I'm feeling unless she does.
This has obviously taken a lot out of our relationship, because she would sometimes reciprocate or mirror when I would initiate. When I don't initiate, she initiates much less frequently or not at all.
She's noticed this and it bothers her. She told me that she's noticed that I've withdrawn. She said that my behavior is making her anxious. She said that she knows I'm not happy with her, but I'm not talking about it. She keeps asking me to talk about how I'm feeling. I told her to talk about how she's feeling, and we can discuss our feelings together. She said "no".
I'm not being cold or distant, I'm being happy and friendly, just not intimate unless she initiates. I'm finding happiness through my own activities (GAL, etc.). I've been reaching out to her to connect less, because she is not initiating connection and I don't want to always be the one to get things going.
"The Solo Partner" says that the distancer will believe they can get more out of the relationship than they are willing to put into it. When the pursuer stops pursuing, they feel this loss and want it back, so they'll do just enough to try to restore it. I'm not going to bite.
"The Solo Partner" also says that what I'm doing will make things worse before they get better, and that is definitely accurate, things are worse, but I'm not ready to give up. It would be very easy for me to start making overtures and providing assurances again, I would love to do it, it would feel good to me, but I know where it's going to lead.
W historically complained that she felt she didn't measure up, that I has expectations that she wasn't capable of meeting. I have checked in with her recently if she still feels this way. Based on her response, it's clear that my distancing and taking things down to her level has relieved this problem for her, but it's replaced it with having her not feel pursued. I don't know which one is worse for her.
None of this stuff is sexual, the sex topic was a lightening rod on this board. Sex is the tip of the iceberg, the stuff below the waterline is more important to me.
With that perhaps more complete picture, I'd be interested in your feedback Oldtimer, although it would probably help if you at least browsed through the book.
Accuray
Sounds like a great book and like you are doing well. What does it say about responding to W's pursuit? When you always respond, it seems to me that the result might be to give her exactly as much space as she wants rather than more, while more seems to be what is called for.
Some people live more parallel than
...than partner lives. My sister and her husband do little together, sleep in different rooms, and are very happy and loving in their way. She probably wonders if h and I are glued at the hip. Well cuz we often are. Works for us. I can't imagine living like my sister and vice versa. It is ok when the h and w match,but hard when they don't. Yipes.
Have you thought about what needs you can get met outside the m? Can you form some stronger friendshi
Friendships. Get massages and manicures? Join a hiking club? It isn't only sex and romance you are missing. Find the other things Nd don't depend only on w to meet all your emotional needs. No one can do thAt.
What does it say about responding to W's pursuit? When you always respond, it seems to me that the result might be to give her exactly as much space as she wants rather than more, while more seems to be what is called for.
The book doesn't give much advice about what to do when the distancer starts pursuing. It's really written for a more extreme case where the pursuer is extremely frustrated and ready to be a WAS, probably another take on the LRT.
I don't think I'm giving her exactly as much space as she wants. The book points out that the distancer wants more from the relationship than they're willing to contribute. If she wants to be at a "6" she probably wants me at a "8" in terms of intimacy. Now that I've dropped to 6 she's dropped to 4 and is feeling like there's not enough, but she doesn't seem to ever want to be more intimate than I am.
Doing *something* feels better than hoping, and I do think I'll be able to figure it out eventually.
My sister and her husband do little together, sleep in different rooms, and are very happy and loving in their way.
Yes, when both people are aligned there is no issue. MC said that your distance preference will fluctuate, and if the fluctuation has enough overlap you won't even notice that there's a difference, so you don't have to match exactly. When you're significantly different (which we are), then it's more of a challenge. I could not live in the scenario you describe above, I would not feel loving with that degree of separation.
Have you thought about what needs you can get met outside the m?...Find the other things and don't depend only on w to meet all your emotional needs. No one can do that.
Yes, when I told you that our marriage wasn't bad before the bomb, I meant it even though you found it hard to believe. I was able to do what you're suggesting here, I found other ways to meet my needs through GAL type activities, other friendships etc. I found happiness there and I was getting "just enough" from W and she wasn't complaining. Turns out she was burning up inside and eventually blew.
After all the pain and turmoil, what I want now is different -- if we're just going to go back to what I was doing before, then why did I go through all this pain just to have that?
That's something I'm wrestling with now, because it feels like we're heading right back to where we were, although with a big slice of self-awareness that was missing before.
Passionate Marriage talks about the fact that you establish an equilibrium in your relationship for a reason, it's a reflection of who the two people are. W said the equilibrium wasn't working for her and set out to find something different with someone else. It seems like our prior dynamic has a strong pull for her.
Maybe she's grown through this experience and what we had before will now be OK, maybe she won't get another affair opportunity and I won't have to worry about it, or maybe she'll eventually want more intimacy -- that is not something I can count on or even hope for.
I definitely feel she got some "be careful what you ask for because you might get it". When I introduced a more intimate, passionate marriage she decided she didn't like it, but I found that I did.
Accuray
"The Solo Partner" says that the distancer will believe they can get more out of the relationship than they are willing to put into it. When the pursuer stops pursuing, they feel this loss and want it back, so they'll do just enough to try to restore it.
This was the quote that struck me from the chapter as well. It basically means that at whatever level you decide on for your pursuing, their reciprocation input will always be less. And it's not just a lack of understanding, like Men/Mars and Women/Venus issues. It's a lifestyle for them. I know (I've proven) for me, that just doesn't work. I'm worried for you because you clearly want more, AND you're willing to give more, but your W isn't. Period.
Time for a new thread, I will respond to CV here:
Pursuit and Distance