180=stopping sex -- Now how to start again?

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I have an SSM. I am the HD and my wife of 38 years is the LD partner. Her rejection of me felt so bad several months ago that I told her I would not have MR with her anymore until she showed me that she really wanted to make love to me. That was my first 180.

My LD wife just shrugged it off. For about two months I periodically told her that I would make love to her if she would do something (model some new clothes for me, wear something sexy to bed, massage my back, etc.)to show me that she wanted to make love to me. She refused to do anything. At the end of October, I told her that I needed to be touched. She told me that she doesn't touch me, because of fear that it will lead to sex. I told her that I could cure that. I then said that I was not going to have sex with her for any reason until January of 2010, no matter what she did or how she touched me. (My second 180)

I think that I may have finally gotten her attention and she has asked when we might start being intimate again. I have said that I will not be intimate with her until we have talked about our relationship and what it entails to be in a married sexual relationship.

It will have been 5 months since we have had sex quite soon. If she is serious about renewing our sexual relationship, I am uncertain of how to proceed. Actually, as an HD person, I am for the first time afraid of having sex and being so vulnerable. Part of me wants to tell her that.

I am wondering if we should start slowly by just having foreplay for a week and then move up to "outercourse" or mutual manual stimulation for a second week prior to again trying to have intercourse. One the one hand having been married to her for 38 years makes such an approach seem silly. On the otherhand, it has been 5 months and maybe it is time to do things quite differently so bad habits are not regained.

Durig this sexual sabbatical, I have purchased three couples massage books and two DVD's on couples massage one G-rated and one X-rated (Sinclair Institute). I am wondering about suggesting that they be part of the path back to intercourse and MR.

Perhaps what our discussion should be about.

Expectations as to frequency (both partners perspectives on fixed nights of the week or how many times per week and sharing of who will initiate)
ways of saying no without emotional rejection of the other partner (say not tonight because....., but tomorrow)
techniques/acts (what is acceptable/not acceptable)
any bad habbits or painful memories that should be avoided.

Any suggestions or links to similar situations would be appreciated. Thanks.

I think that in re-starting your sexual life, you should proceed by consensus. You seem to have some non-sexual massage things that you both like. So start there and ask her if she wants the next step. If the answer is yes, then go a little further. I think asking permission takes away the fear. I would steer away from new techniques that you two have not enjoyed before. Stick to tried and true behaviors.

Thank you.

Interesting approach.

She does like back massages. Last night my wife work up around midnight and had a hard time going to sleep, so I offered to massage her back with massage oil (a relaxing massage, not a sensual massage) and she fell asleep while I was stroking her back.

I have seen some old sex therapy self-help books that suggest taking a 2-week break from intercourse and then doing only foreplay for a few days, followed by mutual stimulation to orgasm for a set number of days, prior to actual intercourse.

Tried and true positions is probably the smart approach; but I would like to make something about it different so it doesn't totally seem the same on a subconsious level. We are now different people than we were five months ago, so it shouldn't be exactly the same.

It's the energy you put into it that gives it the spice, not the positions. I love when my husband gets enthusiastic.

Maybe I can be a little more specific. It has been several months since my wife and I had sex. I have read about sensate focus exercises as a way of having couples get in touch with their bodies and the enjoyable feelings of touching and being touched.

Anyone have any experience with this or recommendations related to these exercises?

Thanks

Wow, after reading all your posts, I get the sense that you have turned your sex life into a life long field of study.

Try to remember that this should be fun. Have a couple of drinks, get naked, lay in bed and watch a movie or listen to music and just enjoy each other.

Try sharing fantasies. What do you fantasize about either with her or with anyone? What does she fantasize about? Enjoy the conversation. Try living out some of those fantasies.

I've been in a sexually deprived marriage. Never again for me.

I know how difficult this type of thing can be. It's too easy to put off. Make the time to do something about it. It's that important.

bob

Originally Posted By: bob48

Try to remember that this should be fun. Have a couple of drinks, get naked, lay in bed and watch a movie or listen to music and just enjoy each other.

Try sharing fantasies. What do you fantasize about either with her or with anyone? What does she fantasize about? Enjoy the conversation. Try living out some of those fantasies.

I've been in a sexually deprived marriage. Never again for me.

I know how difficult this type of thing can be. It's too easy to put off. Make the time to do something about it. It's that important.

I wish it were that easy! A life long study course is what this could turn into if I didn't have my own internal divorce decision point time line and some promises to myself about fixing this marriage or ending it.

Lying naked and talking is probably not a realistic option. It would probably freak her out. My wife will not get naked and allow the lights to be on in the room and she will not make love when the sun has come up to the point that there is light in the room. She will not (or at least she didn't when we had sex) get naked except for foreplay and sex (then it is the flannel sleep pants and shirt back on as quickly as possible). So the option of lying naked and talking is probably not realistic, while something structured like a book exercise, that involves massage (in her mind) might be possible, but would also likely be a hard sell. She has real body, self image issues.

I have shared all my fantasies with her over our 38 years of marriage. She knows them all and has made sure that none have happened even by accident over the 40+years we have known each other. That came out a little too bitter, but it is a line from something Dr. S said in the Passionate Marriage. I have asked about her fantasies over the years and recently and she always refuses to tell me what they are. Again she is quite inhibited. She wasn't as much before we got married. In her youth she had quite a libido, but was still sexually inhibited and reluctant to try the most basic of forms of sex.

As to the sexually deprived marriage, I feel I understand what you are saying. If this marriage can be saved, which I would very much like it to be, then it will need to include a much greater component of playful, exploratory sex and touching like it has never had in the past.

It has been 5 months since we last had sex and I am starting to get some mixed signals from my wife. We have our first sex therapist session this Saturday (scheduled by my wife!!!) and I want to go into the meeting with some positive suggestions that the therapist may endorse as a way of starting sex again, assuming my wife is ready for that.

If our marriage can't be saved, I will not date any woman who isn't a certified monogomist sex addict! I hear you and will never put myself in this situation again.

I realize that I was part of the problem in our marriage relationship and I was the one who called sex off, because it was so emotionally destructive to me, but I do want to try to save my marriage and if I can't then I will move on to a better situation. I have definately been working on getting a life and have made great strides in that area over the past five months.

Thanks for you suggestions.

I wasn't aware of all your wife's issues or that you were seeing a sex therapist. I would suspect that your wife has to deal with her own personal issues about her body. That's something she will pretty much have to do by herself, although you can be informed as to how to help her and how not to hurt her progress.

I am not sure how much sex therapy will help at this stage, but I don't think it can hurt.

Meanwhile, if she won't be naked, have her get as close to it as she can. Perhaps disrobing by steps, a little more each day.

My wife insisted that we go to bed every night without any clothing. I wasn't used to it, objected to it, but gave in because I loved her. Now, I wouldn't consider wearing clothing to bed unless it was really cold.

You stated that "I realize that I was part of the problem in our marriage relationship and I was the one who called sex off, because it was so emotionally destructive to me"

I'm not sure why it was destructive. If she was willing to have sex you were at least part way there. Hopefully, you will at least get back to the same place, where she will be interested in trying sex again. Maybe the therapist will get you back to that point.

I hope that you will share your progress with everyone. Best of luck.

bob

Originally Posted By: bob48

I'm not sure why it was destructive. If she was willing to have sex you were at least part way there. Hopefully, you will at least get back to the same place, where she will be interested in trying sex again. Maybe the therapist will get you back to that point.

She does have her issues and I hope that she now is serious about working on them.

As to why would anyone stop having sex.....or wanting to get back to where we were last year......

The sex was becoming less and less frequent and I couldn't stand the emotional pain. It seemed like every time she felt close to me that she would pick a fight, or do something to gain emotional distance. When I tried to talk to her about thst, I got nowhere.

Even within the past couple of months, there was a time when I took her out to dinner and really treated her very well well. She responded and rubbed the hair on my head, touched my arm and said nice things to me..... then she caught herself and she started a fight right in the restaurant. Because of the relationship books I had read, I opted not to be pulled into a fight or respond negatively and just asked her what happened and why did she yell at me. She told me it just slipped out, she didn't know why and that she hadn't intended to hurt me.

If you have ever got naked in bed with someone, got aroused and then had them start a fight so you didn't complete things ....or you made love and found yourself feeling close to someone and your reach over to kiss them on the forehead only to have them explode and curse you right afterwards for being so insensitive (as to reach over to kiss them), you might better understand that there are emotional limits to opening yourself up to another person.

When I was taking a young puppy to dog obedience school, the trainer explained that if you beat a dog often enough, it will just withdraw and hide in the corner when you are around. I feel like an abused puppy at times; not a strong sexual self-image, but one of similar emotional damage.

While my wife wasn't always like this....once upon a time she had a high libido, but was still sexually inhibited; and once upon a time we regualarly had sex that was fulfilling and wonderful. It has just gotten less and less frequent over the years and more personally emotionally damaging to me, until I couldn't stand it anymore. That is why I stopped. I really miss sex and being touched, but I am scared to open myself up to her and be vulnerable. What we had last year was unacceptable and damaging to me.

I would like to get back the woman I fell in love with all those years ago. I would settle for just feeling loved and having my sexual/physical needs be respected by her. If I can't get that, I'll settle for ending the marriage.

Obviously, she has a lot of work to do, and you might also. It could be a while. And you never know when or if your patience will pay off.

bob

Thank you for your comments.

We had our second sex therapist session last night.

My wife is being forced to come to grips with some of her issues. She is not really enjoying her choices, but seems to be hanging in there and trying to move forward to the extent that she can.

I also have some real issues that I need to deal with. Many of the relationship books suggested by members of this website have really helped me understand myself, my needs and my weaknesses a lot. I have been working on me over the past couple of months pretty constantly.

The sex therapist, that we are also seeing has given me some suggested books that I should read, based on her observations of me. I expect that those will also help me deal with my issues.

All in all, I feel that I am doing pretty well. It is an emotional roller coaster, but I hope that it turns out well in the end.

The person who is struggling the most with change is my wife.

It has almost been a year since I made my last post on this thread. I thought that I would add a postscript to this thread.

My wife and I had about five sessions with a superb sex therapist who helped us a lot. We also attended a full marriage weekend workshop put on by John Gottman and his wife. Plus I read a ton of relationship books and changed the way I treated myself and my wife. Our sex therapist told us that she felt that we were "cured."

I worked very hard on getting a life and on making my wife feel loved in her primary and secondary languages of love (Chapman's 5 languages of love). I added hobbies to my life that did not include my wife, and I added some that included my wife. I am much more physically fit, healthier, in shape and have lost a lot of weight since the low point in my marriage. I also get weekly theraputic massages to help with stress and provide me with the touch that I need. My wife started to see me in a different light during the changes I made and realized that I could find another woman to love me, if I left her.

I also promised myself in 2009 that I deserved to be in a loving relationship and set a time line of about a year after the start of our therapy as when I either wanted to be divorced or have a loving wife. That promise to myself was one that I would not have broken. It took months for us to reestablish a sexual relationship. There was back-sliding and anquish and arguments, but eventually we have become close again.

Most of the time since mid-March of last year we averaged sex twice a week. Sometimes less and rarely more. It has been a long time since she has emotionally hurt me during or just after sex or intimacy, but the emotional scars are still there and sometimes I find myself getting defensive on ocasion even when she is not trying to hurt me. I need to work on letting go of the past.

I now recognize when she is saying she loves me in her primary and secondary languages of love, even if it isn't the way I want her to show me love. I make sure that I thank her when she shows me love in her languages of love and I always tell her about how wonderful I feel when she shows me love in my languages of love.

As much as things hurt me, my wife went through her own emotional hell. Most theapy sessions involved her crying and her needing to stop on our drive home to compose herself emotionally. But at some point she decided that our marriage was important to her and that she was also going to commit to doing what it took to try to make things work.

Each month we do more to rebuild our relationship. We are finding more and more time for each other, but also having separate interests and hobbies. We are much more thoughtful of each others feelings. We have each changed a lot in the past year. Change is difficult, but possible.

Congratulations, Young, that's a wonderful story. Your commitment and willingness to go beyond yourself and seek help from others is an inspiration. Too many people want it all to just fix itself, and it doesn't work that you. I hope many people will find hope for their own situations in your story.

Dear Young at heart,

I feel for you - I'm at pretty much the same place myself. We celebrated our 30th anniversary last year. We have a good relationship, I would say - but no sex, or almost none. And I can't face the thought that is the way it's going to be from now on...

sbrass;

My wife and I are now having sex fairly regularly about twice a week or more, depending. She is a different woman and tries as best she can to show me the love I need.

It took quite a while, but things can turn around. The hardest things for me (once I reached my breaking point) was to go slowly and give my wife time to change.

We will be celebrating our 40th anniversary later this year. I honestly didn't think that I would be married to her when our 39th anniversary rolled around. I really would have divorced her had I not been in a loving relationship. During my transition I made a promise to myself that life was too short to not be loved in a way that I needed. I also promised myself that I would really try to save my marriage.

I was lucky.

I wish you luck and strength in finding happiness with your wife.

Thank you, Young at Heart, for your encouragement to keep hoping. Indeed hope, important though it is, is not enough. A practical next step for me needs to be writing down what I want/hope for, and then finding the courage and the right time to simply share it with my wife. What she doesn't seem to get is that I don't just want sex. I want to 'make love' with her. For that, there needs to be some desire on her side, or at the very least a desire to re-discover desire, to blow on the embers that are there (perhaps?).

May I be lucky too!

Strange business, this sharing some of the deepest things in our lives with others we don't know, we've never met...