The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #6 -
"An affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage".What are your thoughts about when Michele says..
Quote:
"Most people can survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."
Do you know any couples who have overcome their feelings of violation and betrayal, and gone on to have a better marriage?
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
I thought there was some chance but my W believes she is still looking to "is there someone better than." She says that's one reason it happened. I believed there was some chance of reconciling but presently I am detaching from any possibility because she is not receptive at this time. Which leaves me feeling very low from time to time. But the more I pull away from pursuing her, the less concern I have for what she will or will not do. It is her issue, not mine.
losthope -
Keep in mind that your wife might not really be looking for "someone that is better than you", she may really be in search of a relationship that is better than the one that the two of you have now.
If you were to look at it this way, what kinds of possibilities can you see of making this happen from your end?
If you were to "start with a beginner's mind", where could you begin to look for solutions to showing her that the relationship she's looking for could be a new one with you?
Quote:
An affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage".
no an affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage. But it certainly does take something away from it.
Quote:
"Most people can survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."
sure they can and often do creat better stronger marriages once the "issues" have been worked through, BUT (yeah yeah I know that infamous but) the a being the catalyst for the change is often felt as a scar, can lead to resentment etc. of course those feelings can minimize with time but I'd be willing to bet that even when things are wonderful they do have a tendancy to surface.
Quote:
Do you know any couples who have overcome their feelings of violation and betrayal, and gone on to have a better marriage?
currently I feel I now have a better marriage than I did before all this crapola. I feel I am dealing with the betrayal feelings etc. however fear still exists for me, I've let go of the resentment since there really is no point in looking at the negative thing that caused a positive change instead of simply enjoying the positive changes.
Quote:
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
unfortunatley not really, the raw realities of marriage and life were not hidden from me so I was and am still aware of what people tolerate in a m. After all at my pre-cana before getting married one of the work book questions was about infideltity...would it mean the end of your m. I answered not neccesarily. funny thing is that h answered yes and he was the one to have the ea and then leave as a result. For him the betrayer, what he had done was more detrimental, he thought it meant the end.
I can tell you now though that it is not something that I would tollerate again for any reason. There will be no exuses, no blaming, no second chances!! h is aware of this as well. I think that it is extremely important when faced with infidelity that the betraying partner understands that though they are forgiven for this indiscretion they will not be forgiven again.
LL
I see no point in trying to say everything LL just said by rewording it. I will just say "ditto" on every point.
All that I would add in addition is that, my H also thought that his A being discovered meant the end. If it is possible, I think he beat himself up over it even more than I did.
I pointed out quite a few examples of people we both know who's marraige had survived after an A. H wasn't aware that they had gone through that, and I wanted him to see examples that there was hope.
What I didn't tell him was that in every case, even in the marraiges that ended up much more strong and stable that before-A, the betrayed spouses have all told me the same thing:
Even though you can find a strange kind of gratitude for the positive changes that occured when they had to piece their marraiges back together....
The feelings of betrayal and violation NEVER really go away. Like survivors of a near-fatal car accident, there are many similarities. I suppose it is Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome to one degree or another, depending on the sitch and how much damage was done.
I've heard those spouses describe that the triggers that set off a wave of emotions get fewer and less intense over time, but that it never REALLY goes away. I think it is realistic to expect that I will probably experience the same thing those people describe. How could something be erased that effects and changes you down to the very core of your being?
I believe that it will get easier as time goes on...fewer flashbacks, fewer nightmares, etc. I believe that learning to live with the process is the deliberatly chosen price I am paying to save my R.
I believe that it will get easier as time goes on...fewer flashbacks, fewer nightmares, etc.
I'm seeing this to be true. Even though it does seem to take a lot of time.
The "triggers" seem to be a kind of wierd thing, too. They seem to come out of nowhere at times. I have found, though, that they come around more often when the general "temperature" of the relationship is "low". When I see things starting to get back to the way they used to be, or maybe in limbo, with no signs of forward movement.
For me, the triggers are a sign to start taking a closer look at some of the "little things" that aren't going quite right in the R, and shift the focus to there. Not always easy to do, but much less painful for me than dwelling on the A.
The Relationship IQ Quiz: #7 -
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."How many people do you know that believe this to be true? (Not counting anybody in the entertainment industry?!
)
How many of you know people that are in your second, third, or even fourth marriage, who keep making the same "mistakes"? That maybe all they have learned is to get a better pre-nuptual agreement up front?!
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
When she talks about being satisfied with your own life, and being on a path that is satisfying to you as an individual?
What are your thoughts as this relates to both you, and your partner?
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Relationship IQ Quiz: #7 -
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
I am on my second marriage and even though we are going through DR it was by far better than my first. Even now, despite my H EA and MLC, I love him and have been more happy than ever. I have only been DR loyal for about a month, but I think I'm beginning to see some positive responses and I may be able to save this second marriage and avoid discovering a third.
How many people do you know that believe this to be true? (Not counting anybody in the entertainment industry?! )
I have been told that subsequent marriages are more prone to failure and that has always been a little unnerving.
How many of you know people that are in your second, third, or even fourth marriage, who keep making the same "mistakes"? That maybe all they have learned is to get a better pre-nuptual agreement up front?!
My mother is on number three and still has the bad habits, but has found a compliant spouse who ignores her habits.
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
I believe she hit the nail on the head. It is a common misconception that the marriage is the happy ending and the rest is pure joy. WRONG. Movies end at the wedding because the marriage is hard work, this may also be why subsequent marriages tend to fil, because people keep looking for the permanent puppy love relationship.
When she talks about being satisfied with your own life, and being on a path that is satisfying to you as an individual?
This makes sense, but I'm still working on making myself happy right now. I'll get back to yo on that one
What are your thoughts as this relates to both you, and your partner?
I think that I am trying to learn as much as I can from Michelle and hope that she is right. I have religiously followed the DR book and I am fortunate to have a C who recommended it. After 5 weeks I am starting to see some positive results. There is still no 'I love you' or free kisses, but there is more pleasant conversation and the occasional gentle touch on the shoulder, back, arm or whatever. I am choosing to believe this will work and will not quit.
Quote:
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
I truly think that if I got a D and got remarried and faithfully followed DR and everything I have learned through couseling (trying to save this marraige), that I could be a success.
I would rather be a succes with the person I am ALREADY married to though! Unfortunatly he doesn't see it that way!!!
Quote:
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
This is true and I keep telling myself that , but I hate when I am out and see a couple gazing into each other's eyes, etc. It makes me miss what I had with my H and wonder if I will ever have it again with him or with soemone else!
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When she talks about being satisfied with your own life, and being on a path that is satisfying to you as an individual?
I know that this is basically what DBing is all about. I know I am happy as I will get as a separated person living in limbo. It is so hard to be happy being alone when you know that the person who used to love you is now an alien!!!
I'm going to have to step outside of the theory, although I completely understand Michele's point, and think it is probably true for most people.
I married the first time at 16 years old. I was completely clueless and definately didn't marry for love. As time went on, all of the signs I should have seen early on became a pattern of him drinking and being abusive. I attempted to make it work, but there was never going to be any happy ending there.
My current H was married twice before, briefly. Despite birth control, he had the misfortune of getting a woman pregnant. She wanted to have the baby Because he was in the military, he was able to provide certain benefits, including free medical care for mother and baby if he married the mom. I knew them at this time (strange story--my first H and I were their next-door neighbors and friends) They definately did not marry for love and the marraige died a natural death.
Second time around, he again, despite birth control, got ANOTHER woman pregnant. Yeah, yeah, I know....
SAME story, he married the woman to provide for the child, marraige died a natural death.
By this time, he'd had enough of the unplanned babies and got "fixed".
He and I remained friends. His wife #1 and I remained friends. I lost track of him for a couple years and ran into him one day out shopping. We exchanged phone numbers and planned to get together to catch up. As we walked away, my son asked me "who was that guy?" I said, "that's an old friend of mine. I can't explain it, but I have the strongest voice inside me saying I'm going to marry that guy!" It was so weird, but 6 months later, we were living together and have raised my two sons and his two sons together.
Basically, it was the first time either of us actually CHOSE to be in a relationship and went into it with full knowledge and intent.
Despite the difficulty we have had the past two years, with him in full-blown MLC and having an affair, I would have to say even now that we are much happier that in previous marraiges. In fact, now that we are addressing some of the cracks that were in the foundation of our relationship, we can both picture ourselves growing old together.
Quote:
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
Well from the way W has described it, her M #2 (before I was even a twinkle in her eye) was pretty bad so I doubt that she learned very much.
Quote:
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
I wholeheartedly agree with this one!
I admit that I was not very happy before W and I had our big falling out back in January of last year and was in a depressed fog for three months following that - a real mess. But from sessions with my C, reading a number of relationship books and the fine people on the DB BB, I have felt for the past several months that I am firmly in control of my own happiness. Yes my M is still on somewhat shaky ground and I am currently drawing unemployment, but there is only so much that I can control. I cannot control having employers offer me a job (although I can definitely influence them by my resume and the interviewing process) nor do I control where our M will lead except to say that I will not stand in W's way. I do feel that if she does leave, we all will lose and W will have to answer for her decisions - even if it is only in her mind.
I forget who originally said this but "He who does not remember history is condemned to repeat it." Often I feel that W is attempting to relive her own past (two failed M's, the failed M of her parents) because she does not have the strength and/or knowledge to break the pattern. I have suggestions
- but W needs to be receptive to new ways to do things. Heck, that's something that I need to keep in mind as well...
The Marriage Map
Stage 1 - Passion Prevails.
Stage 2 - What Was I Thinking.
Stage 3 - Everything Would Be Great If YOU Changed.
Stage 4 - That's Just The Way My Partner Is.
Stage 5 - Together, At Last!
Where do you see your relationship as being at now on the marriage map? For both you and your partner?
What stages have you been to already?
What stages have you spent the most time in, and which ones have you seemed to breeze right through, or maybe even bypassed?
How do you feel about the thought of bouncing back and forth between stages? About the stages sometimes being "three steps forward, and two steps back"? Does this help to give you hope for where you're at on the map right now?!
To quote Michele....
Quoting :
The quality and quantity of love you feel for each other are never stagnant. Love is dynamic. So is marriage. The wiser and more mature you become, the more you realize this. The more you realize this, the more time you and your spouse spend hanging out in Stage 5. Together, at last.
Your thoughts on this?
For me, the possibilities are overwhelming!!!!
Quoting sunseeker:
This is true and I keep telling myself that , but I hate when I am out and see a couple gazing into each other's eyes, etc. It makes me miss what I had with my H and wonder if I will ever have it again with him or with soemone else! The person who used to love you is now an alien!!!
Wow, when my wife and I were seperated, I went through some of those same feelings one day in a pizza parlor!
I went to pick up a pizza for my guys at work, and there was this elderly couple there, must have been in their eighties. They were having a little birthday party for the husband, and it just really touched me how loving they were towards each other. Growing old together was something that my wife and I always envisioned and talked about, and, at that particular time, it didn't look like that was going to happen. I had to step outside of the place, and have a little breakdown in my car.
It's great to now be able to joke again about us moving to a one-bedroom place, and not leaving a forwarding address with the kids!
JJ~
It is always good to hear that someone has been in your shoes and has "lived to tell"! I am not holding out much hope right now for myself. My H is very certain he wants a D and won't talk about anything but that. We are meeting on Saturday and I am dreading it!!
Anyway...back to the book....
Quote:
The quality and quantity of love you feel for each other are never stagnant. Love is dynamic. So is marriage. The wiser and more mature you become, the more you realize this. The more you realize this, the more time you and your spouse spend hanging out in Stage 5. Together, at last.
I am sure that we have been through the first three stages and have gotten stuck there. As I look back, it has become pretty clear to me where we were (stages) at different points in our marriage.
I do believe that every marriage experiences at least one major problem and only the strong survive. I am ready for this challenge and want to make my way to stages four and five, but my H doesn't. It is frustrating because I can see such a bright future if we can get over this "Bump in the road" but I can't get him to see that!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #6 -
"An affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage".
What are your thoughts about when Michele says..
"Most people can survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
I remember when I was dating my husband that I believed if he ever cheated on me, then it was over. There was an ex-girlfriend in the mix and the whole thing was a mess.
Well, he married me and THEN told me he'd cheated.
I felt like he'd tricked me into marrying him.
Sigh.
Lots of bad feelings around that issue.
But now with the seperation, that whole issue has been on the backburner for a long time. Sometimes I still wonder if he's done it again, but for the most part I try to thought stop.
If he has done it again, I know I'll sound like a coward, but I don't want to know.
I think we could work through it, it's just I have a lot on my plate right now. Don't want another issue!
Hugs.
The Relationship IQ Quiz: #7 -
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
When she talks about being satisfied with your own life, and being on a path that is satisfying to you as an individual?
What are your thoughts as this relates to both you, and your partner?
JJ
This one is tough for me.
Not because I want a second marriage. But because I admire my husband and I take pride in being his wife.
I need to learn to find that pride in myself...and I'm slowly getting there.
Hugs.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Marriage Map
Stage 1 - Passion Prevails.
Stage 2 - What Was I Thinking.
Stage 3 - Everything Would Be Great If YOU Changed.
Stage 4 - That's Just The Way My Partner Is.
Stage 5 - Together, At Last!
Where do you see your relationship as being at now on the marriage map?
ok, I'll admit I spend way to much time between 3 and 4 For both you and your partner? I can honestly say that I'm not sure of h's thoughts but I would imagine as long as I'm not complaining he'd probably say 5
What stages have you been to already? all of them
What stages have you spent the most time in, and which ones have you seemed to breeze right through, or maybe even bypassed? I think I've spent way to much time in 3 or 4 while h spends most of his time in 4 or 5, of course I feel like each time we get to 1 we breeze right through it, damn wish that we could get stuck there for a while. I think that when we get to 5, I often start to let fear pull me back to 2,3 and 4...some ridiculous prodective device in my brain I guess.
How do you feel about the thought of bouncing back and forth between stages? I think it all depends on what stages you bounce to and how often you stay in certain ones, About the stages sometimes being "three steps forward, and two steps back"? leads to a sense of despair at times "when will things ever seem "right" Does this help to give you hope for where you're at on the map right now?! knowing that there are stages and that it's somewhat normal (least I hope it is) to bounce from one to another at times helps, also knowing that things can be better (have been and can/will be again in a few days, weeks, minutes) also helps to pull me out of stage 2 when I foolishly allow myself to go there.
To quote Michele....
Quoting :
The quality and quantity of love you feel for each other are never stagnant. Love is dynamic. So is marriage. The wiser and more mature you become, the more you realize this. The more you realize this, the more time you and your spouse spend hanging out in Stage 5. Together, at last.
Your thoughts on this? I think that in some sense if both partners have an understanding that things will not always be perfect in a way no matter what stage you are in you are "together at last" because you both understand the ebb and flow of the marital relationship
For me, the possibilities are overwhelming!!!!
LL
The Marriage Map
Stage 1 - Passion Prevails.
Stage 2 - What Was I Thinking.
Stage 3 - Everything Would Be Great If YOU Changed.
Stage 4 - That's Just The Way My Partner Is.
Stage 5 - Together, At Last!
Can I be in all 5 at once?
Passion-he tells me he loves me and calls me darling.
Thinking-He says he still thinks it was a mistake to marry me.
Change-We both want change...me to loose weight, him to quit smoking.
Just that way-he accepts my needs and seems more willing to reassure me, and CALL me more frequently.
Together-well, we do have a sleepover date starting today.
Hugs.
Quoting lostlove:
I can honestly say that I'm not sure of h's thoughts but I would imagine as long as I'm not complaining he'd probably say 5
That almost sounds like it falls into one of the love illusions from the KLA tapes.....
"My wife is always nagging. Her constant complaining must be an attempt to push me away."Do you think that this may be what HE thinks?!
The fact is....
"Nagging or complaining is often a woman's way of trying to change things for the better. Men should worry when women stop complaining."Although this part of the tape is kind of geared towards helping men to realize that a woman's "nagging" isn't always a bad thing, there may be some things here that you could work with on your end, without him.
Or, maybe, at the right moment, you could tell him this right up front? Let him know that your "complaining" isn't meant to push him away, that you're just trying to make things better?
He might have some suggestions on what might help him listen to your "complaints" better, so he doesn't think you're just "bitching" at him.
If nothing else, LL, this might help to give you a different way to look at things, and maybe come up with some different options to experiment with.
Quote:
If nothing else, LL, this might help to give you a different way to look at things, and maybe come up with some different options to experiment with.
funny thing is it all depends on his mood (and there is no beromiter for his mood, time of day, day of week etc.) how he will respond to my "complaints" wich aren't actually complaints but more of requests for what I need/want. some times he's receptive and compationate, understanding...other times I get the "no matter what I do, it's just never enough" or of course there's the old "didn't I do that just the other day, you are so full of it, you don't even know what you are talking about, just listen to yourself" that's always a fun one....kinda the words to use when trying to create a waw.
so I guess for me it's sit back...breath in...breath out...keep busy...keep happy...try not to let resentment show or build and see what happens from there.
ie. most often I am annoyed with having to go to h instead of him comming to me (an old pattern returning)...so tonight after putting the kids to bed I went and sat outside on the hammock....h came down and sat on the picknic table nearby and began to "complain" about the weather..his being so busy...pointed out that he wasn't as busy last year...that this year it all seems never ending...that he's looking forward to having a day and a half off (sat and sun) that he's looking forward to the end of the season..and then asked if I was staying out there...I responded with...well the next time I have to wave a bug away I'm heading in...h's response was..well I'm getting chomped..comon' in...orielly is on.
though it was a nice interaction and totaly initiated and carried through by him...I always feel like I want and need some r talk...but then I think...no don't go there...it wont get you anywhere...these crappy feelings are yours...don't spoil a pleasant evening with that crap.
but that crap has to be let out and in my opinion it would be best discussed with him..but to him it's just more of that crap, so what to do??? punt I suppose.
LL
ie. most often I am annoyed with having to go to h instead of him comming to me (an old pattern returning)...so tonight after putting the kids to bed I went and sat outside on the hammock....h came down and sat on the picknic table nearbyThis was good. You found something that broke the pattern, and it seemed to work! Keep small things like this in your mind. Anything to change the rythym of the dance a bit.
so I guess for me it's sit back...breath in...breath out...keep busy...keep happy...try not to let resentment show or build and see what happens from there.I guess, for right now anyway, that will work. However, both you and I know that this won't last for long. If you have ANY thoughts of taking over the WAW role, we both know that SOMETHING has to be different. I also know that the "it takes time and patience" is something that you're probably tired of hearing. Those words can only take you so far.
"Punting" IS one option, but that's almost kind of an act of "giving up" for you. It just seems to lead you to more frustation. I can understand why having some R talks is important to you, and there's really nothing in the "rules" forbidding that. Especially in your stage of the game.
I think that one thing that's going to be key to your reaching "stage 5" again is NOT going to be avoiding these talks, just because you don't seem to be the type of person that can do that comfortably. You might want to look at some ways to address this stuff more effectively for both of you, without avoiding it.
But, of course, I think you know all this already!
I don't have an immediate "fix" for you here, my dear, but maybe as we go through these steps, we might be able to find something that will work better for you.
You have at least got him back on your side of the fence, even though it doesn't seem like he's fully "vested" into the deal. I'm sure that there are some ways to get him to fully buy back into your relationship. The "hammock" deal makes it sound like there IS hope. We just need to find the right combination here!
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
Together-well, we do have a sleepover date starting today.
Great! I hope all goes well for you, PNT!!
JJ,
It was a great weekend. Got some really good talks.
I asked him what popped out at him while reading the book. He mentioned the wife nagging pushing the husband away. He gets it! He realized that I wanted to spend time with him and approached it badly, resulting in him being pushed away.
We had some other really good talks, but I already posted the best parts on my thread!
This thread is really helping me...keep up the great work JJ!
Hugs!
Most of the ideas behind Michele's methods are centered around "solution-oriented thinking". As she says, these ideas aren't so difficult, and they can be simply common sense, but common sense can be the first thing to go when it comes to emotionally charged relationship issues!
In the first three stories that Michele talks about, what really struck the biggest chord with you?
What were your thoughts about Florence and Pete, and even though Pete didn't want to do things Florence's way didn't mean that he didn't want to work on their marriage?
What about Mary and her husband, and the changes that occured when she found ways to stop pushing her husband's "negative buttons, and started pushing a few of his "positive" buttons instead?
What about Rob and Ellen, and how the changes that HE made single-handedly helped to cause a turnaround in their marriage?
What are YOUR thoughts on any of the following questions?
"If one partner can trigger change in another, why do we spend so much time trying to convince our partners to change first?"
"Why do I have to be the one to change?"
"What if I push the wrong button?"
"My spouse and I are barely speaking (or are separated). If I change my approach to things, will my spouse even notice?"
"Isn't it manipulative to try to change someone?"
"Why should I believe that anything I do will make a difference when it hasn't before?"
Well, PnT, I'm glad that your old dog learned some new stuff! Now that he knows that your "nagging" isn't always meant to be a bad thing, it will be interesting to see what new kinds of things can happen for you!
I'm so happy for you that your weekend went great!
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
This thread is really helping me...keep up the great work JJ!
I'm so glad it's helping! However, I'm only asking a bunch of questions. YOU all are the one's doing all of the great work!!!
There's some good ideas about "button pushing" here....
Pushing the "positive" button!
Why do I have to be the one to change?
It would be soooooooooo much easier if we could just tell our loved one what's bothering us and they would simply make the change.
But over and over again...wouldn't that be boring? Would we love them more? Probably not.
But there are moments when I sure wish so.
I think this helps us grow as people. To have to come to this struggle. Builds character? Coming to these struggles with my SO.....and truly changing....helps me with my relationships with my children, my coworkers, my friends....my whole life.
So.....well, I'm proof it's true. On either side. When I make the changes, he changes too. When I return to "more of the same" behavior...well, I get more of the same?
Manipulative? I guess everything we do is to some extent.
In the long run, if its for our common happiness, its a good thing. Its good for each of us, it's good for the relationship. It's good for our children, it's good for the world.
(I'm waxing philosophical. I sound sorta like PHOENIX!!!)
I think it's good to let our partners changes manipulate us too. My partner's on vacation.....he was sweet enough to bring me flowers and make extra time for me before he left....even though he was incredibly busy at work, at home and getting ready for the trip..........so...I'm giving him the gift of not calling him. Don't anybody laugh at me. Well, ok, if you want.
"You don't need to analyze why you're stuck in order to solve your marital problems."
What do you think about that statement?
If you already "understand" that your having problems with your relationship because your partner's been "diagnosed" with family-of-origin issues, MLC, PMS, depression, etc., do you still feel "stuck" for solutions to the problem?
What things in the "cause-hunting" cycle can you see that you are blaming them for, and which they are blaming YOU for?
Have you ever tried to do anything that helped to break this cycle, and, if so, what positive results did you see?
Do you feel that you "think small" enough? Are you doing anything to "celebrate" any small, positive change that you have helped to create?
Can you add any ideas of small "baby steps" that Michele has listed to look for?
working thru these threads slowly
Quote:
Do you know any couples who have overcome their feelings of violation and betrayal, and gone on to have a better marriage?
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
it's funny, because i remarked to my mom the other day "you hear about all the scandulous breakups, but you never hear about those that stay together" - i have found since the bomb has been dropped on me that 5 couple friends of ours have lived thru infidelity and STAYED together. imagine that, we had NO idea - no idea there were problems, no idea that there was an affair
i told my h during our entire time together that if he ever did to me what he did to his first wife (affair) i would leave him lock, stock and barrel. but when actually faced with that decision i decided against it (imagine his shock) - now i am working harder than ever to keep this marriage, despite his feelings on whether i can ever forgive (i think i have) or not
i think i answered both...
kitti
Well, knowing that I suffer from depression means different things to different people. My brother thinks I should be on anti-meds the rest of my life. Thanks to my mom's help and Michele, I've experimented with different things to figure out what I can do to ease symptoms. So...I think having a diagnosis can be a double-edged sword. Some people become limited in their solution search...the trick is to be more creative once you have the diagnoses.
On the other hand...I have this weird situation with my husband.
He STILL thinks he's the cause of my depression. I've told him everyway I know how that it's a chemical thing. He insists on blaming himself.
Finally, this past weekend, I said, ok, it's possible you are partly to blame for my depression. Here's how.
When I first began dating you, I saw that you ate sandwiches all the time. I saw how you ate and wanted to eat that way too!
All that bread is too much carbs for my system to handle. Now, when I stick to Atkins and limit my carbs, my depression goes completely away. So, if you are to blame for my depression, its for eating so many yummy sandwiches!
We talked about my thyroid problems and difficulty with weight loss. I hope he understands that he's not to blame. But if not..I'm hoping that living with me depression free will convince him!
Any suggestions?
Hugs.
it's funny, because i remarked to my mom the other day "you hear about all the scandulous breakups, but you never hear about those that stay together"
Isn't that so true! I wonder why that is?
It's great, kewlkitti, that you know so many couples that DID survive. It would be interesting to hang out with these couples, and just kind of watch what goes on between them now. Maybe to see some of their interactions together, just for a little inspiration, and get some tips on learning how to "imitate success".
Quote:
Isn't that so true! I wonder why that is?
my theory on this is: i read a statistic somewhere that said that 50% of marriages end up in divorce but 80% of marriages suffer infidelity sometime in the marriage - so it shows there are at least 30% that aren't getting divorced. so my theory is that people work past it, and they do so QUIETLY. so the important thing to remember when suffering thru this kind of sitch is to not tell the world what happened. you have a better time of reconciliation when not many know about it. just my thought.
Quote:
It's great, kewlkitti, that you know so many couples that DID survive. It would be interesting to hang out with these couples, and just kind of watch what goes on between them now. Maybe to see some of their interactions together, just for a little inspiration, and get some tips on learning how to "imitate success".
it's amazing jj - i have known these couples for YEARS and never would have suspected a thing, but some that had found out about my sitch and have now offered comfort to me with a resounding "don't give up" "give him and YOU time" "don't do anything for 6 months" - all these words of encouragement have been BLESSINGS because in just short of three months, i am already seeing changes
sorry to hijack the thread!
kitti
JJ,
I re-read the marriage map and I've revised my answer. I think I'm somewhere between 4 and 5. I am relieved that step 1, Passion is likely to return after 5.
So, hey! I think I know where I am now!
What's next?
How's YOUR life JJ?
Hope you are doing well!
Hugs.
Drat. I wondered why there was no activity on this thread!
New thread started here:
Step 2 Hugs.
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #6 -
"An affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage".
What are your thoughts about when Michele says..
Quote:
"Most people can survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."<hr /></blockquote>
I sure hope this is true! My H and I have been separated for 8 months, he still lives with his sister and sees OW. Is this a sign that our M can not work? Or should I give my H more time? He still comes over here, but not very often. When I first told him I didn't want a D;
1) we gave each othe hugs and sometimes kisses
2) he came over more
He doesn't seem to want to do any of the above. I don't know if it is him or me. Did he feel hope and now thinks we can't get back together? Here I am assuming again! Why can't I stop this bad behavior of assuming.Everytime we get closer he backs off. 
Quote:
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
I have gone from "no way" to better than "maybe", I think we can make this better than before.
I would never have thought I would have stayed with H. And I did go and file for a D. My H has to forgive me for that. As long as he is seeing the OW how can we go anywhere in our R. I feel like he wants his cake and eat it too. But I haven't slept with H since he left. I just have a feeling I'm going about this wrong, that I'm missing the key to us getting back together. He never wanted a D, and says,"whatever makes you happy", he has never said he doesn't love me. So why aren't we getting back together? I think I need to change before he is willing to try and I think he needs to give up OW. We are at a catch 22 and that is why we can't work on rebuilding our M. His sister is no help as she is the OW friend and is against me.
Any things you can ask to push me in the right direction or make me think?
Deb
Quote:
The Relationship IQ Quiz: #7 -
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
How many people do you know that believe this to be true? (Not counting anybody in the entertainment industry?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
How many of you know people that are in your second, third, or even fourth marriage, who keep making the same "mistakes"? That maybe all they have learned is to get a better pre-nuptual agreement up front?!
I know of A LOT of people that have remarried and are not happy infact not only do they make the same mistakes, they are adding more. Why? because they bring more baggage and lay it on their new H's. Added family members seem to bring more fights!
Quote:
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
I was happy with my M but I new it can't be perfect. A satisfying M can make you content and happy. But I don't think we should rely on M being our universe. That's what I did; my life was my M, and look what happened, I totally feel about when my H had an A. M is alot of work you can get much fulfilment from a M, but it should be your everything!
I think you need to be satisfied with who you are before you can have a satisfying R with your S. But, this isn't easy as I was brought up that your H and family come first, so my life was built around M and family.
JJ,
Quote:
I went to pick up a pizza for my guys at work, and there was this elderly couple there, must have been in their eighties. They were having a little birthday party for the husband, and it just really touched me how loving they were towards each other. Growing old together was something that my wife and I always envisioned and talked about, and, at that particular time, it didn't look like that was going to happen. I had to step outside of the place, and have a little breakdown in my car.
It's great to now be able to joke again about us moving to a one-bedroom place, and not leaving a forwarding address with the kids!
Have a lot of those moments. I was looking forward to growing old with my H also, I hope it will happen. But right now it is up to my H, even though he doesn't know that I want to work on our M.
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #6 -
"An affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage".
TRUE is my answer
& I think my husband may feel the same
if he can forgive himself as this is the 2nd one that he's had
the pattern - he caved in to a girl on the job
when he was feeling insecure about our family's future
What are your thoughts about when Michele says..
Quote:
"Most people can survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."<hr /></blockquote>
I know this as a fact,
I found out as an adult that my father cheated
my mom found out & left & he ended the affairs
she forgave him & we kids never even knew
my dad was in a band at the time -
mom & him agreed she'd go with him to performances
so that way all the floosies knew he was VERY MARRIED
he always said after that
why settle for cheap hamburger when you've got prime rib at home?
as an adult my grandmother told me about
"our vacation without Dad"
My parents were "til Death do us Part" when my mom died
so I know that an affair doesn't have to mean the end of a marriage
Do you know any couples who have overcome their feelings of violation and betrayal, and gone on to have a better marriage?
My own Parents
Has your opinion about the chances of a marriage surviving through infidelity changed from what you may have thought before it happened to you? Possibly went from "no way", to "maybe"?
I guess because I'd learned from my grandmother that my own parents had survived Infidelity
& after having survived once already
(the reason my grandmother told me about my parents i guess)
I do know that it's not easy but it can be overcome
Quote:
The Relationship IQ Quiz: #7 -
Most people are much happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes."
False
How many people do you know that believe this to be true? (Not counting anybody in the entertainment industry?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
Well I don't know many divorced people to start with but hubby's male friends seem to be either younger & never married or his age & older & the ones his age & older seem to be drunkards who have had either 1 bad marriage / divorce or more - 1 guy I do know is in his 50's & is a 3 time loser!
How many of you know people that are in your second, third, or even fourth marriage, who keep making the same "mistakes"? That maybe all they have learned is to get a better pre-nuptual agreement up front?!
See above - weird 3 time loser of course doesn't say anything is his fault - they were all "B!*%$s out to get him for his money
What are your thoughts about when Michele says "Unless you understand that "marriage" doesn't make people happy, you will spend the rest of your life trading in marital partners for new ones."?
True - you need to be a happy person it's not everyone else's job to make you happy
When she talks about being satisfied with your own life, and being on a path that is satisfying to you as an individual?
I really like how she said in the book that if you are not happy in your job maybe you should change jobs rather than planning to change partners
What are your thoughts as this relates to both you, and your partner?
My parents were 'til death do us part'
as well as those were around me growing up on the family farm - 2 uncles & my father's parents -
so daily i saw examples of couples who lived & loved working it out thru what ever life threw at them - including my great grandmother & great aunt being cared for in home until they died by family members -
my uncle lost both his mother & wife the same day one died in hospital & the other died at the home of my other uncle -
the examples which I grew up with were couples who althou some appeared to be mismatched
had very fulfilling lives
& loved each other regardless of what came up,
they worked thru their problems because althou divorce was an option to the rest of the world
it didn't seem to be part of their vocabulary -
the 2 divorces which i knew about in my family were brought forth by the spouses which were married into the family
& occurred in the younger generations
who didn't live near the farm any longer
& seemed to have lost the family connection...
as for hubby's life experience -
there doesn't seem to be much connection to family -
he's not close to his family,
his own mother was a divorced single parent
who left him as a young child down south while
she came north for a few years before sending for him,
she was single for a few years up north raising him & his brother
& then remarried a man who had 3 sons
the 2 families never did seem to blend
& even as adults there is still a us against them attitude with the step brothers -
my view as an outsider looking in -
even my children joke that they were the ones who taught my FIL in our early years of marriage
to be able to hug children anywhere & anytime
- the 1st time that they gave my FIL a hug downtown hartford at 1st nite celebration when it was time to go his expression was definately one of shock & confusion as we were in a public place saying goodbye & he didn't expect the kids to just spontainiously jump into his lap & hug him in the middle of SubWay fastfood restaurant 
I think that people are very mistaken on the "& they lived happily ever after" fairytale
& look for marriage to be what makes them happy
rather than looking at life as being an interesting passage
& enjoying what life brings
& the joy comes in the sharing life with your family both the good & the bad -
for if you don't have any rain then the flowers will never bloom
& if you don't have bad times then you will never grow
& you will never be able to fully appreciate the good times as really being the good times does that make sense to anyone besides myself?
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The Marriage Map
Stage 1 - Passion Prevails.
Stage 2 - What Was I Thinking.
Stage 3 - Everything Would Be Great If YOU Changed.
Stage 4 - That's Just The Way My Partner Is.
Stage 5 - Together, At Last!
Where do you see your relationship as being at now on the marriage map?
Well Pre-Bomb in early 2002 I was in Stages 3 & 4
now after DBing for over a year I'm at stage 4
trying to be patient with hubby in MLC
& simply riding the roller coaster with it's daily changes
Stage 2 What have I done! is where hubby is at
while he's in Stage 3 Replay of MLC
althou at this point he's recouping here at home
I've tried to simply "Act As If" all is well &
have been doing my best to make him comfortable
with out any pressure to feel that he's
got to be home for good - which he's not ready for right now
For both you and your partner?
Well Pre-Bomb in early 2002 I was in Stages 3 & 4
while i was trying to get my real estate license upgraded
dealing with the teen rebellion at home
dealing with getting my husbands doctors all on the same page
dealing with the docs for my grandmother who wants to stay home as long as possible
(she's had 2 episodes of congested heart failure)
all i wanted was to move into our own home & i was very frustrated that hubby
wasn't getting a move on the process
& that hubby wasn't doing all that the docs were saying
to get himself into better health
unbeknownst to me hubby was entering MLC
& went from stage 1 Passion Prevails as late as
August 2002 according to a few people
who told me that that wished they made marriages like ours
-(these were people from his job who said he spoke of us frequently)
into stage 2 What have I done!
& at this point also stage 2 & 3 of MLC
Anger & Replay in September 2002 when the drinking increased
& then he left to go home to mommy in Oct 2002
after he'd gotten the diagnosis of diabetes
on top of the chronic Sarcoid which was in full blast since the summer
What stages have you been to already?
I left Stage 1 & 2 early in the marriage -
actually I hit stage 2 & called the townhall to find out about annulments within the 1st 6 mths
then I settled down & got educated by some married couples
marriage is something that is worked at & sometimes it's hard!
being a realist & having to clean up hubby's messes with the finances
I got into Stage 3 & 4 & stayed there for years
thru DB I've learned alot & seem to be mostly in Stage 4 at this point
I'm not sure if hubby's really noticed that
or if he's still worried that I'm in Stage 3
What stages have you spent the most time in,
I think that I've spent most of the marriage in stages 3 & 4
From what I've gotten from hubby's talks
hubby apparently spent most of our marriage in Stages 1 & 2
& my being in Stage 3 has hurt his feelings
and which ones have you seemed to breeze right through, or maybe even bypassed?
I think for myself I spent the least amount of time in Stage 1
went thru Stage 2 quickly for a total of 2 yrs for the 2 stages
since then I've been in either Stages 3 or 4 depending on life circumstances
I'm totally amazed that hubby was able to tell me in his honest opinion that he was in stage 1 for so many years
it's because he left Stage 1 that he hangs out now in MLC Replay stage & Marriage map Stage 2 What Have I done?
or something like that visa versa?
How do you feel about the thought of bouncing back and forth between stages?
I have seen it in my own marriage
I have on occassion bounced back into stages 1 & 2
but mostly hung out in stages 3 & 4
during this crisis I've seen myself bounce from stage 4 & 2
where I've wanted to just run away myself
but this site has helped me to realise that running is pointless
About the stages sometimes being "three steps forward, and two steps back"?
It's an old saying that my grandmother has told me for years
this crisis has shown it to be so true
Does this help to give you hope for where you're at on the map right now?! 
this site & that advice gives me the strength to see this to the end
while my sitch may not be what i want
i see couples here in worse sitchs
it gives me hope as hubby & i are still connecting
the OWhore may have hooks in hubby, but he's never moved in with her
the fact that he's still trying to deny her is good
the fact that he comes to me for care is good
the fact that we still make love is good
there are couples living together who aren't making love
so in my heart i know that we as a couple
no matter what comes out of hubby's MLC Foggy Mouth right now
there is still a hope that we'll get to the point
where we'll be able to relax a bit in Stage 5
One of theses days
To quote Michele....
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Quoting :The quality and quantity of love you feel for each other are never stagnant. Love is dynamic. So is marriage. The wiser and more mature you become, the more you realize this. The more you realize this, the more time you and your spouse spend hanging out in Stage 5. Together, at last.
Your thoughts on this?
I'm treading water in stage 4 waiting for the day
when we can celebrate in stage 5
& look back at this MLC as something to laugh about
whenever we look at the M&M RollerCoaster dispenser 
For me, the possibilities are overwhelming!!!!
Any thoughts, suggestions or advice would be welcome