How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
Now, empty your minds, and let's begin!!!
One area in which I had to "take off my blinders" was in dealing with my wife's depression problems. I got so wrapped up in the "diagnosis", that I had a tendency to lay this to blame for all of our problems. I was SURE that once we "fixed" this problem, all of our other problems would simply just go away.
I found that I focused so much of my attention around this, that I wasn't able to take a good look at other possible solutions to what was going on. In fact, putting all my attention on this just made matters worse for her. And us.
It took a counselor I was seeing quite a few whacks upside my head with a 2x4 to make me see things differently! Once I took the focus off of my wife's depression, and put the focus back on taking care of myself, and some other areas that I could do something about, a shift began to take place. I began to feel better, my wife began to feel better, and her episodes of her gray times became less severe, and less frequent.
Life is much better now, but I do still have stop myself at times, and remind myself to not be so "sure" about what I "know"!
To take a step back to look at things from a different point of view, and be able to see different possibilities.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
AT this point I am not very sure about anything. OUr sitch is new (less than 2 mos.) and I'm still trying to sustain hope.
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I used to rely heavily on the past to predict the future. Since reading the book, I've realized that these things never worked in the past, but I tended to keep repeating them.
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
As an outsider, I might see myself as a whiner. My first knee-jerk reaction is to tell that girl to just leave the man who is causing her so much pain. If I were a third party who knew the details, I might help that girl to see the things she has done that caused the M to go in the downhill direction.
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
At this point, my advice is still skewed in my not-so-beginners mind yet. After reading the book I would advise the girl to work on that 180 a complete 180 and stay positive. I myself have done about a 160 but I am riding an emotional roller coaster most days. One minute he is kind and considerate, the next he is telling me that he sees himself divorced in the next year, that he isn't in love with and he doesn't want to be in love with me. Hope tends to abandon me during these moments.
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
With no past history huh? I don't know... I can't get over the past yet, it is still my present.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
I realize that he isn't trying to hurt me intentionally. I distinctly feel is upset that he is hurting me and feels to guilty to leave me and our children. He is occasionally fishing for a reason to hate me and justify leaving and sometimes I feel he is trying to encourage me to leave him and ease his guilt by making him the victim. I have told him that I am not angry at him for not loving me, that he couldn't help it. I conceded that he was hurting me badly, but that I was not angry and was not giving up. That earned me a heartfelt hug, but I wonder, was that a hug for easing his conscious or was that emotion? My C thinks I have a bad habit of overanalyzing.
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
Between the book and my C, I realized that I was a MAJOR contributing factor over a period of about 10 years. With that long a negative history, I am worried I may not be able to recover him, when he has stated that he does not want to be recovered. I was too motherly, always tempering his overconfident ego about promotions, etc. thinking that I would pad his landing if it fell through (not realizing that it came accross as criticism), I didn't realized that I didn't have fun! I honestly do not remember the last time I had FUN, I've enjoyed things, but not FUN. I had become to serious and responsible and at the same time, tempered the joy in our lives to boredom. Those are just a few of many things, the most severe is my Sexual Dysfunction following the birth of our 11 year old. I kept reminding him 'it was medical condition and marriage is not supposed to be about sex' not realizing that sex is alot of marriage and to him, it turns out, sex is the unifying factor that makes a man feel as though his soul has joined with that women. I never realized that until now - to late. I wish I had know that 11 years ago.
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
Right now that dot is a black hole waiting to just suck me into its eternal, neverending agony and blackness.
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
Things could be great, if I were given another chance. I worry that all of the 180 changes I am making in myself will not last, I want them to last for me too, but I'm worried that I won't be able to maintain the new position. help!! I don't know where to begin to try to figure out how to have fun? I have no idea what would be fun for me?>??? I'm considering taking a week long vacation ALONE to the Bahamas, is that dumb? Should I do that or will that make our sitch worse?
This was long, but I'm buying into step #1 open heartedly. Take my hand JJ, I need the solid lead
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
Now, empty your minds, and let's begin!!!
Quote:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view?
I would say that it looks like I am being overly patient and my H is being a jerk by running away from his problems. Most of friends say they can't believe that I am so "patient" and that he needs to start working on the M. I tend to agree, but then again, I am a little biased...or am I?!
Quote:
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
I often question my H's motivation for acting like he does. he is hot and cold. I tell myself he is confused. I guess maybe I could be more objective and say he doesn't care anymore, but that hurts too much!
Quote:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like?
I would love to start with a clean salte, in fact I have told H that. he doesn't seem to want to do that. he says he can't get emotionally involved. That a big sticking point with him. I have made so many chanegs over the past few months and I have learned so much about myself and how to make a M work. How can he see these changes if he never sees me? I think he has noticed some changes in our brief encounters but how does he know they are permanent?
I am frustrated and would love some guidance!!!
Quoting sunseeker:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view?
I would say that it looks like I am being overly patient and my H is being a jerk by running away from his problems. Most of friends say they can't believe that I am so "patient" and that he needs to start working on the M. I tend to agree, but then again, I am a little biased...or am I?!
I fully know what you mean on that point
& have been told the same even by my own children
who are angry that he's unwilling to work on making things better
& for the BS that he's putting us all thru right now
& especially for the affair with the slut from his job
& everyone knows that she's just using him for what she can get out of him
(even the people at work who are beginning to toss rumors around left & tight although he told the job in May that he'd moved back home)
Quoting sunseeker:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
Hubby is having some serious issues that he needs to face & work out
but instead he's running away from his problems
& in the process creating more with his irresponnsibilty with the money & not paying the bills correctly,
drinking & driving has led to a ticket & Driver Ed class for him to keep his license,
& his job is being affected
so althou he's hurting us his family
he's also hurting his own self
& in the long run it'll be up to him to wake up & smell the coffee...
I see a man/child that knows he's doing wrong,
but he's not sure that he wants to stop or maybe even how...
he's in pain inside that he wants to run away from
he knows that Home is a Safe Place that he can come to
he's hidden out here as well as going to his mom's
but here he turns off the cellphone to "escape" OWhore & friends...
this past month & 1/2 he's been having too much fun in the sun to hide out too much...
but he does know that the door is still open to him
& there are times when I can see that he's NOT having as much fun as he wants to pretend that he is...
he's just NOT ready to Come Home & Miss Out on Something
I need to learn how to better detach from the problems while still being nurturing
when he's here looking for "Safety" & reassurance that someone does still care
I need to get some friends to hang out with in real life & get out of the house & away from the computer...
For 20 yrs I've been Daughter & Son's Mom...
For 11 yrs Hubby's Wife...
I now need my own ID & life
I hate being in LimboLand...
only a few short months & it'll be 1 yr...
I am fighting depression
as I can't understand what happened in June when he was clearly heading homewards
& I only found out this month that
he'd even told the people at work that he was back home
so it was on his mind & not just my imagination on the big babysteps I was seeing...
he's not talking & avoiding his parents as much as possible
I'm trying to give him the space he needs...
but even at this point his Mom is mad at me for not bringing her over to the sluts house to confront hubby
or at least giving her the sluts phone number to let her call for hubby...
I'm feeling beat up on by everyone
for trying to be patient
& I don't know what I should be doing at this point
so all I can do is pray
& spend way too much time here on the board
trying to get a better idea of what i should try/do next
I'm trying to not feel so lost but this is SOOO confusing
what do I do next?
JJ,
Quote:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen
I am not sure at all how things will play out in my M.
Quote:
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I don't think that I am relying too much, one thing you made me think of was that when he left b4 for AW, he did come home, again, eventually. I wake up every day and hope for a new beginning w/ my family and my H, and want to believe that he will never do this to me again, in the future.
Quote:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently
I think from an outsider's pov, I might feel like most people have been telling me, that I should get on w/ my life and he should be the one chasing me and begging for my forgiveness, but I guess nothing would change, then, and I do want my M to work and I want to have a loving R w/ him, so I am trying to hang in there.
Quote:
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I think I'd be afraid to touch it w/ a 10-ft pole! I don't think I have enough DB experience to be a helpful advisor, so I probably wouldn't advise anything, just try to be comforting to this person.
Quote:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
It depends on how much past history you delete. Myself, I guess I would go back to when I was in nursing school, and realize that my H felt neglected when I studied so much. I would give him the attention he needed and encouraged him to promote w/ his job. (He felt I held him from promoting.) I would have given him my time more freely and tried to worry less about school, so he never would have confided in and ultimately had his first A. Now we might have been a very close, loving family that enjoyed each other as much as we did when we met.
Quote:
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
He's on drugs, he's having a MLC, he's confused about what he wants in life and he can't make up mind, he's possibly a sex-addict, he's scared.
Quote:
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
When I asked for quality time, I would do all the things you shouldn't do to try to get it from him. Why he's having an A. His perspective on money-spending habits.
Quote:
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
An infinite list of possibilities.
Quote:
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
I could give to my H more freely, and he could give to me and Ss unconditional love freely, and spend quality time w/ us and be a faithful, devoted H, free of drugs. I wouldn't be critical of him or have learned to be disbelieving in what he says or does.
Quote:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
We would have a loving, trusting relationship, free from adultery. I would help this by giving my H what he needs, and help lead him toward my needs being met.
Hope
My mom often says, "The best predictor of the future is the past."
So, I need to go a step beyond looking at my situation from an outsider's viewpoint.
I find I need to wipe the slate completely clean and pretend that my husband and I just started dating over the past year that we've been separated.
If we are dating, several of my actions become ridiculous.
Me pushing him to hurry up and move in with me.
Me pushing myself and him to begin having sex again.
Instead, I'd be doing my best to draw him closer and being the patient, kind, and understanding girlfriend. And I'd definately not be expecting anything from him as our relationship was so new.
Hugs.
Wow, we're off to a really great start here!!
These are some very thoughtful, very insightful posts so far!
Remember to feel free to give feedback to each other back and forth. Doing so will help us all gain the most from participating.
Great job so far!! Let's keep going!!!
What actions could we do to be in a beginners mind?
What drew them to us to begin with? As Phx says what could get us to draw them in?
For me it was little things, like Thank you for taking me out last night. Or small gifts like chocolate.
My mom often says, "The best predictor of the future is the past."
You know, pnt, your mom isn't totally off base here.
Often, by looking at things from an outsider's point of view, we can see patterns of behavior between couples. First he does this, next she'll do that, then he responds by doing this thing, etc. etc., on and on.
There are many parts of our lives, and what we do in our relationships, that are VERY predictable, and where the outcomes will be fairly certain. So, looking at it this way, she is very correct.
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got"
This is where the power of DB, the power of change, really comes into play.
If we can "start with a beginner's mind", look at things the way they could be, instead of the way we perceive them to be, we can begin to see some different solutions. We can get a clearer view of what WE may be doing that is contributing to these predictions being fulfilled, and change OUR dance steps from there.
I think that this is why clearing our minds of "what we KNOW" is the first step. A step that should not be skipped. Until we can do this, we can easily fall prey to repeating our patterns of behavior, which makes it tough to get the needed changes to start rolling. AND, to KEEP them going.
Thanks JJ for giving me an opportunity to "think out loud" about these issues. As I post my responses to your questions I can't help but wonder what my answers might be a month from now as I know that they would have been different a month ago....but here it goes!
"How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?"
I'm not SURE at all. Often the frame of mind I'm in at any time of the day OR the day itself sways my confidence or feelings of doubt.
"How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?"
I tend to rely of "past" performance to predict the future. I'm afraid I'm very "stuck" in the recent painful past. Because my H had and A (two short lived PAs in fact) that I discovered before the 1st of the year....that knowing how easily he was able to deceive me makes me very very leery to believe anything he says anymore.
"How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?"
As others have responded, I think if I were an "outsider" to this...the easy answer would be to say...don't look back, he'll never be worth it. And I must admit, sometimes I DO believe that myself.
"What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!"
Funny, but I would "advise" someone else in the same sit. that I'm in, that if they truly love their S, that they should try to work through this tumultous time.
"If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?"
Without the tainted past...I'd say the possibilities of happiness were limitless.
"If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?"
Having read the DR book and others, I'd say that he's scared, confussed, and lost in a MLC.
What areas of your relationship might" it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?"
I have already realized through all this pain and introspection that As don't happen in a vaccuum. That my distancing etc. contributed to the process that helped set up the "excuses/justifications" that he needed to go outside the M to meet his emotional/physical needs. BUT I also realize that throughout our 25 yrs together, I was the one that was always taking the "temperature" of our relationship and always attempting to be the "fixer." He didn't share his thoughts or feelings so I was always in the "dark"....I got tired of trying to keep/make him happy and so I gave up...
"What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!"
Infinity
"What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?"
My miracle would be a totally honest, monogomous relationship, where there would be no place for a secret life. Where we would be each others best friend and confidant again.
"If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?"
I would take an interest in the things he enjoys (MC riding/fishing/boating) discussing the news (local and international). I would "lighten up" a bit and learn not to second guess him or read into what he says looking for ulterior or duplicitous motives. I would remember that life's to short to take the people you love for granted. I would remember that no one OWES me their love, I have to nuture it and respect it.
JJ - I saw those two items that you highlighted from PNT and they really hit me between the eyes.
My mom often says, "The best predictor of the future is the past." If I were to take this to heart, our M would have been over a long time ago. In my sitch, W has been married twice before. In the past, her ways for dealing with marital strife have been to put minimal effort into resurrecting the R, complain to whomever would listen about how H doesn't get it and find someone else.
I will say to W's credit, she hasn't headed for the hills yet. But she has admitted in C sessions that she feels stuck and hopeless that things will never get better between us. I know that I cannot change her mind about things - but I can influence by choosing how I live my life.
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." For me, it has been very tough to keep the changes going on my part since I tend to focus on the big things missing from our R instead of making note of the "little things." I often feel like I'm spinning my wheels in a mud bog.
Hi Rhonda!
So many of us here can understand how tough it must be for you right now. The emotional roller-coaster ride is so hard to deal with, and takes us to places where we don't want to be. I'm glad that you're here with us, and not trying to do this all alone.
I, for one, do believe that there is hope for your situation. The biggest part of this belief comes from the fact that you ARE here, and that you're willing to learn more about what YOU can do to help make your relationship better. This, to me, is a good sign!!
As you're going through this process, please be sure to try to not beat yourself up about things you may not have realized before. Take good care of yourself, and know that even though there are going to be ups-and-downs, you're heading towards the right direction.
A vacation to the Bahamas sounds great! It might help your spirits out immensely!!
Instead of being alone, can you take all of us with you?!
Hey sunseeker!!
I, for one, really admire your patience! It can be really tough for other people on the outside of the situation to understand. I know that before everything hit in my situation, my opinion on what I would and wouldn't do, and put up with, was quite a bit different than it is now!!
I think that your thoughts of your H being confused might be closer to the truth than the "not caring" possibility. At least for now, that line of thinking will give you more possible solutions to work with.
Keep in mind that as you're working through your program, his confusion isn't going to go away overnight. In fact, as you're making your changes, he may become even MORE confused, but in a different, and better way. You will be blowing away his images of the person he left, and replacing them with images of the person he might just want to stay with. This will be good!
He won't be certain that these changes are permanent until he sees them consistently over a period of time. So, what you need to do is to concentrate on keeping these changes going, and to keep his curiousity peaked about just what's come over this girl!!
Be confident that he will notice, even though he doesn't see you much. It's surprising how much they can find out about, how much they notice, even when you're apart. And, if all goes according to plan, you'll have more chances to show yourself to him more often in the near future, right?!
Hi djembequeen!
I DEFINITELY think that starting to pursue some more outside interests and activities would be a GREAT place to start!
It's so hard to see what to do at times when we get too wrapped up in the situation. Getting out, "getting a life", and doing things to help "re-create" ourselves is often just what the doctor ordered!
Stepping beyond your roles of wife and Mom, doing things for yourself sometimes instead of always for other, might be what it takes to get your big changes started. It might be what it takes for him to stand up, and take notice of you, and what he may be missing out on if he doesn't stick around!
Got any ideas on where to start this? What are some of your hobbies or interests? Things you've always wanted to do, but have just never taken the time for?
Hi Confused_Hope!
I know how tough your situation is for you right now. With your H in the midst of a substance abuse problem, it can seem almost impossible to effectively work your DB'ing program. However, I think that you're starting on the right track!
Although there's not a lot you can do to force him to take care of this problem, what you can do is to keep making your relationship together a place to where he might want to come back to. Some place that's safe, and healthy.
This doesn't have to mean that you turn your back and just ignore his drug problems, and accept everything that he's doing. This wouldn't be healthy for either of you. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that you have to ignore, or not accept, him.
We would have a loving, trusting relationship, free from adultery. I would help this by giving my H what he needs, and help lead him toward my needs being met.I think you're well on your way of being able to see what it will take to make this happen. Your working towards this, learning what it might take to make this happen, will be the most important thing that you can do to help lead him towards the path of recovery.
Hang in there, I know it's tough, but remember that we're all here to help you keep going when you need it!
JJ~
You are AWESOME to respond to each of us with such positive advice. Thanks for starting this discussion--I think we will all learn alot!!!!
I want to point out a theme I am seeing from many of these posts. We have all (in different ways) learned how to "care for" a M now. I know that I have learned so much about what I could have done differently to nuture my R with my H and I am ready for a chance to prove that! I know it will take time and I need to have patience! I am glad to have so many people to share this journey!!!
JJ,
I agree w/ Sunseeker! I really appreciate your time and efforts to help each one of us. You really are awesome! I really was looking for this kind of help. I hope I'm on the right track, but I'm hanging in here.
Hope
Hi all,
I dropped by to see how this discussion was going. Congratulations on making great use of this BB and kudos to you JJ for leading this discussion and giving supportive and helpful feedback. I will check in from time to time as I have time, and if I think I have two cents to add, will do so.
Hang in there everybody. Its easy to become discouraged and give up hope. But we each have the power to make things change a little by changing ourselves a little - the way we think about things, or the way we say things or decide not to speak, the way we do things. Remember that small changes start a process that can change everything in the long run. Patience and trust in the process helps. There's lots of support here. Keep your own goals in mind and stay on track for yourself. Don't say or do anything that will have a negative effect on your goal, even if it feels justified. And take care of yourselves. If you are stressed, do some exercise or take a walk or something so you can do this tough DR work.
Good luck.
JJ------------
this is a wonderful thread, an awesome idea.
I am always in awe at your compassion, your thoroughness with each person you respond to, your patience, your commitment...........you are wonderful!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Not sure at all. I feel like I'm "riding the wave", never knowing what will come next. It is very stressful.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
As my H's behavior has worsened and worsened, I think I am using the past to predict future (negative) behavior. OTOH, I also have been thinking a lot about the last time H left me and returned. I thought it was completely over and proceeded with my life "as if" it was. I built a new life for myself, and H began pursuing me during that time. I see that it happened once before, and I think it could again (if his mental health issues are resolved).
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I think if I were a third party, I would think I was crazy for having any hope of saving the M. I would be highly offended at how H had treated me and DD. Most third party people also tell me how life will be so much better when I meet a different man, move on, etc.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I would post to be careful, but also follow through with the DR process as it looks like a very healing thing to do personally, and it couldn't hurt the M either.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
H would be a whole person, not mentally ill, able to feel his feelings, and yet not be lost in them. He would see the importance of his role in the family, and take it on with pride. I would be more open, not have walls up in my eyes because of fear of being left again. I would be able to express my needs without being critical. He would also express his needs/wants/plans. We would have forward motion emotionally, physically, and financially.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
He is mentally ill. He is re-enacting patterns of projecting emotions onto people and then running away from them, rather than looking at himself. He is having a MLC. He was suffering under the weight of the household needs, and finally "cracked". He is at a level of desperation in his life where he needs to reach out to something, or he feels he may come apart at the seams. He desperately needs to feel good about himself and not like a failure. He desperately needs to feel like a respectable person. He needs to force away the people who remind him of his stresses, failings, problems.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
Definitely in terms of how I've neglected myself and become "uber-servant", instead of a whole, healthy person. I relate to the poster who talked about no longer remembering how to have fun. I have fun with my dd, and also with my H, but not FUN for myself. Life became too much about routine and responsibility and troubles.
I need to understand more about the dance of being critical vs. making your needs known and asking for what you want. DH always insisted I was too critical and controlling. Yet, it seemed like everything was falling down around my ears and I was getting nothing I wanted. I need to learn more about that, and especially how I'm responsible for that dance.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
The way to reach my husband. Something that is there, but not known yet.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
Healed, loving, whole. Healthy boundaries. Adequate financial supply. Family intact and staying that way. H and I connected, interacting as people who love each other and are stearing the family ship together.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I really related to the advice in DR about knowing when to approach your mate. I am afraid I approached at all of the wrong times, and that set us up for failure. I'd definitely "pick my battles" and try to talk at a time that was good for him.
I would be more physically nurturing, and get to bed earlier in hopes of connecting sexually. (Another timing issue for us that really hurt things.)
I see us spending more time together as a couple, if we were a new one, starting from scratch. We rarely did ANYTHING to nurture OUR relationship, and I see that it is essential.
And, of course, it would help if DH didn't think God talks to him constantly and told him to leave me.
On that note though, I would be much more open to being in a spiritual community and nurturing our family and relationship through that. (As long as it wasn't too crazy of a place -- have issues with that.)
Quote:
Got any ideas on where to start this? What are some of your hobbies or interests? Things you've always wanted to do, but have just never taken the time for?
I'm trying to get Hubby to keep his word about letting me get back into real estate sales which I was getting started in when his Sarcoid was discovered as being out of remission & attacking his bones...
we had several arguements when I was in the biz because he didn't take the time to listen to what I was trying to explain to him about what I needed for biz supplies
& I admit that while I was going to the classes I not realising it was neglectful of his needs
& I found out Oct 30th 2002 we had misunderstandings over why I was in the living room on the futon
(I thought by studying there I wouldn't be bothering him with all of my notes spread out, & I'd end up falling to sleep too manytimes, he thought that I didn't want to be with him & instead of waking me up to come to bed he turned to internet porn then when things went to MLC for him he turned to the Owhore from the job)
I asked Hubby if he meant it that I could go back into the real estate sales biz & he said yes...
I told him that we'll need to really sit down & talk about all that is involved because I don't want to have the same problems that we had before...
I also told him that we can't talk about it here because I really hate this house & he has the tendancy to watch the tv when we talk...
I told him to pick the steakhouse restaurant with NO TV & that I would like for him to participate in the discussion by asking questions about what I'm saying
& that way I'll know if he's understanding what I'm meaning & can clarify things at our meeting...
at the time I asked him this he agreed
but that was in mid-June
& as of yet He's not made the arrangements to pick me up for our talk
I'm trying not to be nagging about it,
& have only verbally mentioned it twice in passing & 2 emails...
In the meantime I'm taking a nail class
so that I can learn how to do them for a small income of my own
& have only 5 more classes to finish up I think...
I don't want Hubby to know about the class
because if he thinks I've got an income of my own
then he may cut down on the tiny bit which he does now give
no sense in letting him have additional money to blow on his "friends"
& I can use the spare change to get a few things that I've been putting off because they were "not necessities"...
I did splurge & have ordered
2 Belly Dancing Instruction cd sets,
good exercise to tone up where I've lost the weight but am a bit flabby in the tummy area...
I did reach my goal weight of 135lbs,
althou the last few pant sizes
I would have preferred to lose gradually
instead of the drastic "unable to eat a thing" diet
which I ended up on...
I do have the Season Pass to 6 Flags
but am actually finding it hard to get there because people seem to be uninterested in going on rides
- when did everyone get too old to go to an amusement park?
Even my son isn't too keen on the idea of going, but I think thats more that he's not interested in hangging out with his mom
- it's just not too fun going to an amusement park by myself
While I'm waiting for my dvd's to get here
I'm going thru the house as best as I can & slowly rearranging things...
I'm having to wait for my son to get here on the weekends & co-operate to get the furniture moved...
it's a bit frustrating to me because before the car accident I'd be able to do more
& would've had the entire house moved around
& been immediately working 60 hrs a week
so that I wouldn't be home to think about my empty bed,
but I'm not able to do the CNA work that I use to be able to do
one reason that this is just soo depressing to me,
if this had happened before the car accident I'd not be feeling so down
& I'd feel that I had a bit more control over my own life
right now I sort of feel that he's got all of the control
not just with his MLC but with everything else too
I am slowly seeing changes in me that needed to be made
I also see changes in the apartment which is a releif to some point but frustratingly slow
so I guess the lesson there is to learn even more patience
I do see baby steps homeward but then Hubby started running away when I sent him an LRT email,
I found out this month that Hubby told the people on the job that he's living home agian -
so it was on his mind to move back home in april/may/1st week of June,
but poor timing on my part with the LRT email sent him back to OWhore & drinking buddies...
so now I'm trying to undo & coax him back to feeling safe coming home (after I sent the email I just realised that he may have Abandonment issues from his childhood & the email just made things worse on me)
I'm doing pretty well with NO PRESSURE to Come Home or R Talk...
I'm trying to be as understanding as possible with Hubby's Experimentations & dabbling,
the fact that he's NEVER said the D word
& the fact that he's trying to include me a bit in his experimentation does lead me to feel that he's got it somewhere in his head & heart to eventually come home...
the problem is that I'm feeling anxious
as it is getting closer to the 1 yr mark
& due to my email,
we're backslid from where we were in May
where he was staying here overnites alot more
& I knew that he was going to sleep at his mom's house
rather than OWhore's most of the time that he wasn't here overnite
I was calmer then,
I'm trying to not be anxious now
but for some reason I'm really feeling the need to have to take the celexa which I'd been off of for a good while, it's not really doing it's job yet but it does take a while to get into the system...
I was a bit disappointed in myself for having to go back onto the celexa
but the reality is that this is a bit much for me
& it's better to go back onto it
than to let myself really get overly emotional as each day passes
I am much better than I was when this first started
I've not had a crying spell in a while
& when they do happen I found that they were much shorter
so althou I'm needing the celexa now -
to hopefully enable me to start getting back to a normal sleep schedule
I am much stronger than I was in Oct 2002
I've just got to get this anxiety under control
so that I can get back to DBing & work on myself as well
I'm very grateful for this forum
& this DR 7 Step BootCamp is perfect timing for me
it's helping to get me back on track
due to the anxiety I was feeling a bit lost
which made more anxiety because
I couldn't focus on what I should be doing to get back on track to DBing correctly
*How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I used to be very negative about the future because my H has always believed that once you leave a marriage, you can never go back. But now l focus on the fact that he also said he would never get married, until he met me.
So attitudes and opinions can be changed!
*How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
As l said above, now l try to look at the future as a blank page waiting to be written.
*How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
Unfortunately, when friends have been in similar situations, l have told them to let go and just move on. Of course they only involved short term relationships and not a ten year marriage! I think l would tell myself to get on and build a new life without H but leave the door open, if my heart was still with him.
*If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
That he is hurt, confused and scared. The way l was when 1 had post-natal depression made me spiteful, jealous and bitter. After two years of abuse, H felt that this was the real me but l know it wasn't. H sees all my changes as temporary ways to win him back. He feels guilty for leaving his son, and tries to dismiss any feelings he has for me to justify leaving. H tries to push buttons that would have previously caused a screaming match. If l were to "bite" he could console himself that l hadn't changed and he was right to leave. Also l fear that he may think l'm back to being my happy old self because he has left. He may feel that we are better off apart, because him leaving snapped me out of my depression well and truly! Therefore, subconsciously, he may think that it was him that caused me to be so unhappy.
*If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
We would never take each other for granted. I would not lose my identity again. We would both have our own lives and social networks, and the time we spent together would be because we wanted to, not because we had nothing better to do! I would not analyze every tiny thing that he said or did. I would let the small stuff slide and let him know how much he was wanted, needed and loved!
Hi JJ
Thanks for the feedback on my earlier post,
I'm now going to try to answer these questions which you've put here for us to ponder...
Quote:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Haven't got the slightest clue but...
Praying for God to direct things as they shoud go,
but as well as I knew my husband
this alien stranger is totally out of charcter
& every day there are soo many changes happening
that I can't keep up with them all...
I pray, I watch, I pray some more
because I don't have a clue as to what's going to happen next!
Quote:
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I think that basically somewhere inside the alien is my sweet kinda cute guy
& that althou he's actting crazy now he will return...
in the meantime I'm looking more at the past to see where
corrections can be made in my behavior to change his in the present & future...
we do have some communication problems which need to be worked on...
one of my cheeseless tunnels was to Rant & Rave, or do the Broken Record...
now I'm using picture emails,
keeping requests shorter & thanking him when he's done them
I'm making a real effort to be calm when I am upset...
even when I had to make several calls to make my point July 3rd
I was calm when I demanded that he put some money into the account...
it worked I got almost all that I asked for
I am making more note of what does work now
& am using those results to figure out how I should proceed
Quote:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I answered this in an earlier post...
I feel beat up on by those who don't have a clue as to what I'm trying to do...
Family & Friends alike are all upset with me for putting up with this BS, even my MIL!
There are several men who are just waiting for the day that I'm tired & give up...
No one seems to understand...
"Til Death Do Us Part... etc" means just that to me!
I will NOT Divorce Hubby even thou I've got scriptural grounds to do so...
I told the lawyer that I consulted with
that as nice as he was & helpful with information
I hope that I never see him again,
because if I do that means that Hubby's filed for D
Quote:
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I'm not sure - right now I'm NOT Detached enough to be able to look at it from the outside -
but that might be the advice which I give to myself
to work on detaching from the problems & get a life,
but since Hubby does have abandonment issues
figure a way to reassure him that I'm here for him when he needs to feel safe or is ready to come home...
I'm trying to take my advice
but it's a bit difficult right now,
I've started taking the celexa Rx
to help calm the anxiety that I've been feeling this past mth & 1/2
I do think that once it kicks in
& I'm not so anxious I'll be better able to follow the advice...
Note to Others - I Use to Really Have a Problem & Downed Myself for Needing the Rx,
but Really if Your Dr Suggests Taking an Rx...
DON"T FEEL BAD!
No it's Not a Miracle
& Won't Keep You From getting a Bit Down...
BUT IT DOES HELP -
Especially when you get that truely can't face the world depression
which will overwhelm from time to time
Once you get past the Initial Shock Stage
you will find that you can deal with life without it
then if you feel things about to get out of control with your emotions
you can always get back on it until you get over that hump
Quote:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
I'm not sure yet,
I'll have to answer that in a later post while I think about it -
there's alot of past right now
& even the new MLC crap which seems to pop up
every day is a bit overwhelming at the moment,
All the Bad - Past & Present is Too in my Face
In fact I'm going to end this post
& think a bit more on the rest of the questions
& come back later to answer the rest of the questions...
Thank you for this Forum & Outlet
it's soo hard when everyone around is saying leave
"you're too good for this BS - you look good go get another man"
Your Friend
DjembeQueen
JJ,
Thank you for responding to my thoughts, I feel noticed and encouraged. Here is a more troublesome problem I am facing and need advice on. I am working on trying to win H's love back but I am under a time constraint. You see, I am active duty military and I will be going out to sea in October. He has stated that he is only staying in the house between now and Oct. to spare our children and he will leave when I return at Christmas. What can I do between now and Oct or now and Christmas? I feel like I am under more pressure as a result. He is now asking me to seperate our accounts while still living together, i.e. cell phone bills, insurance etc. And I am told he is going to buy a new 'muscle car' but he hasn't told me and when I am out to sea, he will have full access to my financial information and the use of it. HELP, I need some REAL GOOD advice and I hope its positive??
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Not too sure.
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I rely on the past and the present re: H actions re:OW. I do believe in a better tomorrow or I would not be DB.
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I have been told that, "If I were you, I wouldn't be able to put up with this. You are a much stronger person than I am."
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?
I would tell myself to back off, do a 180. I would listen to the advice and pray that I would not back down.
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
Things would look great! We would have a wonderful marriage and take great care of our precious relationship and never take ANYTHING for granted.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
That H does not want to hurt me. He is lying and being deceitful as to not hurt my feelings. He is trying to please everyone.
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
To see that H has negative qualities and not everyone WANTS him. To not feel jealous about time he spends with OW/FF.
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
What dot?
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
I envision H being open and honest about his wants and needs. I envision us sharing and spending time together. Us looking forward to seeing each other and truly feeling safe that we can be ourselves.
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would really listen to H. I would meet his needs even when it was hard for me and I would make sacrifices to make him happy and feel loved.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
You know, I used to be so sure I knew what was going to happen, how my W was going to act or react in a lot of situations. But having that mindset seems pretty self-defeating sometimes. I wonder how much of that "knowing" acts as a subtle catalyst for negative self-fulfilling prophecy. Originally I think I used to tell myself what she was going to do or say as a way to protect me from hurt (which it does to a small extent). And I was often right. So as a professor once told me "that might be true but it's not very useful", I just try to ignore those urges to map out in my mind what she's gonna do or say.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
Thats such a tough one for me. I've talked about it with C and unfortunately if someone asked me for advice about their (being mine) sitch, I'd probably tell them to cut their losses. Its so hard because no one was there and knows what went on between us. My C thinks I'm foolish I can tell, but she hasn't said that. I'm not so worried by what other people think, but it's so hard to keep the DBing faith with well-meaning friends and family beat a constant drum to get out of the sitch and get a D. It's like another pressure that I didn't anticipate, and it really erodes PMA.
Quoting nikatnight:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would really listen to H. I would meet his needs even when it was hard for me and I would make sacrifices to make him happy and feel loved.
Thats a very good answer, puts it right into a nutshell.
Hi everyone. Bridget reporting to class.
I'll shortly have more time to read things here,
but want to post something to get started.
On the topic of beginner's mind: though I've been DB-ing since December 2001, I still must "Clear Out Old Thoughts" routinely.
This week I realized how often I think things
are ALL-OR-NOTHING, NOW-OR-NEVER.
Shoot, I didn't finish painting the bathroom today like
I said I would, so I'm obviously a lazy, big-mouthed
good-for-nothing.
My H (in MLC) has been really nasty to me, reinforcing
this mentality. But it's a voice in my head that I
can turn off, no matter how he treats me.
I am NOT a loser just because I slip up.
Everybody slips up.
That's "clean slate" thinking.
Maybe our marriage is NOT over just because we're not getting along?
When my H started a porn website, I feared it was
because of me. When he couldn't or wouldn't talk to me about this (ad nauseum, like I wanted), I drew my own conclusions.
I must not be sexy enough.
I am obviously dried out, a discard. My H (younger than me)
doesn't want to be stuck with old baggage. I am no longer attractive. He no longer loves me. He will never talk to
me again. And I must FORCE him to talk to me.
But I was wrong.
My man's porn journey was about HIS insecurities,
HIS feelings of inadequacy, HIS fears about aging.
Not about mine.
And he will not be FORCED to talk. Heck, he doesn't
even understand what he's going through, how's he
gonna 'splain it to me?
Cut to now: we're still separated.
But we keep gravitating toward each other.
Somehow, somewhere, we still love each other.
Don't know where this will lead.
But it's a big relief not to be such a know-it-all
(especially about my erronneous, self-defeating
conclusions).
Glad to be here, thanks for listening.
Bridget
WOW!!! What incredible responses from everyone! We are just at the beginning of Step 1, and I'm seeing so many insightful and honest responses! Congratulations everybody! This is going great!! I can't wait to see what the rest of the discussions bring!!
Thanks everybody for the kind words! You just can't imagine how much they mean to me! If you haven't already noticed this before
, I really DO believe in the practical, "do-able", and wise guidance that Michele's teachings have to offer. I can't tell you how many "self-help" books I read before finding this place, but I'm sure that it's probably more than most local libraries have in stock!! However, I CAN tell you that knowing any of the "why's" things were happening didn't help me much until I came here, and began to look at the "what-to-do's".
And thanks, Dotty, for stopping by! I know that YOU really believe in this process, too! For those of you that aren't familiar with her, do a search on her name, and see what great things she writes, and what wonderful things that those who have talked to her have said about her. I assure you that you'll be pleased!!
And search out sgctxok too! She's a wise lady, that can definitely help to steer you in the right direction! Who loves you, sg?!
Anyway, forgive me if I don't get back with all of you individually. It's starting to look like we're getting some good feedback going back and forth between each other, which is what it will take to make this all work! Between ALL of us, we've got a heck of a lot of wisdom here, so let's make sure we keep using it!!!!
P.S. If you're at the place right now where it might seem too difficult for you to practice these new-found skills with your partner, pick someone else in your life that you can "practice" on. Maybe someone where the emotional intensity isn't quite so high at this time. "DB'ing", or being solution-oriented, can work in ALL relationships in your life, not just the one with your spouse. Keep this in mind, I know that this was one thing that helped me!!!
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
P.S. I don't want to hold anyone back, or rush them forward, so feel free to make you comments or ask questions on your own time frame. The "fitness center" here will be open for awhile!!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
I've always thought "false" in regards to conflict and anger meaning the R is failing. Conflict and anger are a normal part of a relationship, and to me it seems more important how you deal with the emotions that come up and how you treat each other.
Typical patterns for my H and me:
I tend to be the one who brings things up that are bothering me.
He only brings things up if I have already put something out there on the table. Definite cheeseless tunnel for the both of us.
In the last year, things would escalate more and more until it was a shouting match, and, um we weren't exactly displaying our best behaviors.
I would bring things up at really bad times. I don't think I was doing that purposefully (to rile him or something), but really, out of stupidity and lack of self-control. Also scheduling. Late night talks, when he is a definite morning person, were not wise. Yet it was the only time he was home and our dd was asleep.
My H is a BIG conflict avoider. He will do just about anything to avoid dealing with something. I think it is a very difficult thing for him, and probably rather frightening.
I know one thing he said before he left is that he feels he always gives in to me, and backs down, and it still doesn't fix things. I don't want for him to do that, honestly. I have asked him over the years to please be honest with me about his feelings, to bring things up if they are bothering him. I did, however, feel very upset when he would counter things I wanted to talk about with some very different thing that was bugging him. Now I'm thinking after reading thus far in DR, that this is simply his style, and there must be another way for me to think about it.
(I think his leaving me is a big "stand" for him, and he probably feels very determined not to "back down" on this one.)
Something else I definitely did wrong was to mention things that were bothering me as they happened, peppered throughout the day. I'm still confused as to how to deal with things that are a problem for me, in a way that wouldn't be upsetting to H. So much to learn. Beginner's mind!
This is the really unfortunate thing. I don't think we had very many successful times of dealing with conflict. I can't think of any right now. We did have some productive talks about dealing with the lack of intimacy in our relationship, and together worked out a plan of mutual responsibility. Then he never followed through with the part he agreed to do. So, we talked about it again, both calmly agreed we needed to give it another shot, and then he didn't follow through again. I so desperately want to learn how to have productive ways of dealing with conflict with him. I hope it isn't too late.
Quote:
P.S. I don't want to hold anyone back, or rush them forward, so feel free to make you comments or ask questions on your own time frame. The "fitness center" here will be open for awhile!!
Thanks for letting us know
that it's ok to take more time on these questions
& that we don't have to feel pressured to answer them right away & move on to the next one...
maybe next time something like this is "planned"
a new thread can be made up for each question
& then only the one question will be the subject with a link to the next in line
so that way only the one item is being worked on
at a time & the "pressure" isn't there for those of us who are moving more slowly
It is a bit confusing trying to go back to answer all of the questions in the 1st post when there are so many questions, & then more is being added
your friend
DjembeQueen
What is working for me right now along these lines is having NO expectations...negative ones OR positive ones!
In the past, when things have seemed to be getting better with me and my H, I have fallen into the "trap" of expecting things to progress along certain lines, based on the way things have been going. Wrong! So many steps backward, so many twists and turns later, I can see that having expectations of ANY kind can really derail your PMA, and in turn your efforts toward improving your relationship.
Quoting djembequeen:
maybe next time something like this is "planned"
a new thread can be made up for each question
& then only the one question will be the subject with a link to the next in line
so that way only the one item is being worked on
at a time & the "pressure" isn't there for those of us who are moving more slowly
It is a bit confusing trying to go back to answer all of the questions in the 1st post when there are so many questions, & then more is being added
your friend
DjembeQueen
Thanks for the feedback, my lovely queen! (Yes, I saw your picture in your profile!!) This is a very good point!!
If anyone wants to get REALLY in depth about anything that we're discussing here, and wants to take more time and thought on any specific subject, there are also some threads available to discuss things here.....
Links to DR book discussions!There are already some good discussions going on in most of these places, and there's always room for more!! We'll keep those threads open, and this one also, 24/7, until the end of time!
There's NO pressure here, (I'm sure that every here has enough of that in their lives!), only options!!!
P.S. Let us know if we're missing anything on the other link that you'd like to see talked about more.
Hi workinghard!! I'm SOO glad to see you here!!!!
I've missed you!!!
In the past, when things have seemed to be getting better with me and my H, I have fallen into the "trap" of expecting things to progress along certain lines, based on the way things have been going.Wow, can I ever relate to that!!
I come from an engineering type of background, where "A + B = C, which leads to D", on and on. I had everything pretty well "mapped out" on what should happen first, then happen next. A "logical" pattern, all emerging from my expectations of the way things should be. All to my "expectations".
Unfortunately, things didn't quite follow the course exactly as I had planned!
I wasted SOOO much time on looking at the way things were "supposed" to go, according to my "logical" plan, that I overlooked the fact that things were really moving forward. But just not the way that I had "planned".
I'm almost ashamed to admit that I was bordering so much on the "My way, or the highway" mentality, afraid to see that there might be different ways to really look at the situations I was facing, that I lost focus on really solving the problems, and finding solutions.
Here's a GREAT thread for anybody that's looking for "something to do that's different" today!!
Something NEW Today
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen? I'm not really sure about anything in the future. I have already been through a lot of chapters in my life that I never expected.
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?Way too much, but I'm working on it! One thing that has been helpful is that when H and I talk about past problems, we keep reminding each other that we don't want to hold on to old resentment, we want to look at what went wrong and do things differently from here on out.
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently? Unfortunatly, a lot of third-partys would tell me to give H the big boot.
Some of those who would tell me that are some of my family members.
However, I think an objective third-party who had compassion for both H and I would say that, sad as it is, we seemed to have needed a bomb to break out a negative cycle that neither one of us knew how to stop. As terrible as the experience was, any third-party could see that we have made a lot of progress on making our R better and that we love each other very much.
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?! Oh, geez. I would say that it's ok to vent and get frustrated sometimes, but that it's important to bounce back into working on my PMA and become solution oriented. I would also remind myself to think before I speak to H when I'm feeling angry and frustrated.
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?As it looks right now, I would say that H and I are getting to know each other on a deeper level and that the work we are doing will make for a more stable relationship.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?This is an area I need to concentrate on a great deal. I am finding that my H has been in a lot of pain in the last few years of our R. He was feeling stressed, fearful, angry, and like all the best things of his youth were gone and was upset about getting older. He is also very insecure and has fairly low self-esteem in general. These things were not my problems to fix or feel responsible for, and his behavior during this meltdown was not intended to be hurtful to me.
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?I need to be more aware of my own tendencies to be stubborn, selfish, controlling and critical. I need to do a better job of explicitly communicating my thoughts, emotions, and needs and learn to do this in a way that doesn't make H feel defensive. I need to express appreciation, admiration, and assurances to H in a big way!
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?! The dot is the circle that hold all things and connects all living things. The circle is sacred and represents the cycles of things and the infinite at the same time.
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?In my fantasy of a miricle happening in my R is that H and I would have a more relaxed, less stressed life with less financial worries. In my fantasy, we would always be growing and learning together and each would feel secure about the other's love and commitment.
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction? There are many patterns that we got into early on that snowballed into large problems later on. I think I would have been more assertive about things that were extremely important to me instead of worrying about upsetting H or driving him away. I would have encouraged better communication both ways and would have probably wanted to see a MC proactively, instead of waiting until we had experienced a major bomb. I would show H more appreciation and not take him for granted. These are the things I would do now if we were starting from scratch.
Hopeful....
You H and mine have a LOT in common!
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My H is a BIG conflict avoider. He will do just about anything to avoid dealing with something. I think it is a very difficult thing for him, and probably rather frightening
This is my H exactly! Once he made up a story about a busines trip so he wouldn't have to go to couseling and deal with his feelings!
We recently agreed to meet about once a week to talk about the R (his idea...I think he really wants to talk me into a D...). He has cancelled twice so far. He admits that he is avoiding conflict but can't change it. I wish he would go to couseling but I know better than to bring that up right now! It is so hard to psuh them into dealing with things without nagging!
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he always gives in to me, and backs down, and it still doesn't fix things.
My H said that too. Looking back, I feel that we "took turns" getting our way (pretty immature). I was the one that usually brought up the problem, but now, looking back, I became more of a conflict avoider just like him!
UGH!!!
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I think his leaving me is a big "stand" for him, and he probably feels very determined not to "back down" on this one.)
I feel this way too....how do we work around their stubbornness (spelling??) and their pride? I am trying so hard to show all teh positive changes I'm making and everyone says he will notice, but it is hard when you hardly ever see each other!!
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I so desperately want to learn how to have productive ways of dealing with conflict with him. I hope it isn't too late.
My sentiments excatly!
I have always been a big conflict avoider - been one to "go along with the crowd", "not make waves", "be the calm center in the middle of the storm." And as I have looked back at W over the years, she has also avoided her share of conflicts.
As to the anger part - W has always been more willing to display it than I have. Again, it's just the way I have always been - not allowing myself to get extremely worked about things but to be patient and allow problems to resolve themselves.
I would say that things have not gotten that much better over the past 18 months. W still avoids discussion of R outside of counseling and even then it's been kind of sparse. In the meantime I have been working on myself a good amount although the idea of Bob "having a life" still upsets W somewhat.
Hi sunseeker!
I only have a sec before I have to run to church, but wanted to say hello. I'm sorry you've got a big conflict avoider too! They are tough to figure out.
I've been thinking about my H's history, and he has a strong one of projecting his problems onto the female closest to him, then "taking a stand" and withdrawing emotionally from her. His mother is the primary one, and she is the iciest, most messed up person I've ever met. I'm worried, from watching his "stand" with her (um, 25 years and going strong . . .), that he'll never soften, as this is some sort of inner spot he is protecting. He feels that something has been broached, and he MUST protect it.
Any effort at trying to "get" him to do *anything* has been met with extreme and complete resistance. He speaks to his friends of feeling so much freedom now. I think the "cage" he was in was created mostly in his own mind. (I think H is also reacting to the responsibilities of having a family and his many financial/business troubles.) He is the one who decided that avoiding conflict, giving in, etc. was a good thing to do for the relationship. I was on the other side saying, "Please tell me what *you'd* like to do, what *you* think, etc." He shut himself down, thinking that would please me somehow, when it was the farthest thing from the truth. He finally couldn't do that to himself anymore (I don't blame him!), and had to get rid of me in order to allow himself to feel some control and freedom in his life.
The only solution I'm thinking of now for this aspect is to completely back away from him. He does need, regardless of me, to get in touch with his own feelings, needs, desires in life. If he ever returns to our M, he will need to learn how to nurture and listen to those desires of his own. I will always have to be careful that I don't contribute to the problem by squelching him.
I can only work on my part of the situation. I know I have to tone way down. I was in a situation where I would talk about a problem, get nowhere with him, get more dramatic, get nowhere, get more dramatic, etc. I wish I'd realized it wasn't working back then, pulled a 180 on the situation, and maybe he would have come out of his shell to find me. So now I need to somehow show this to him, um, in the middle of a huge court battle over supervised/unsupervised visitation of our dd due to concerns over his mental health.
Complicated, huh?
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
Most of our MC has been around this issue. No, I don't think that conflict and anger are signs of a failing relationship, but until now, my H definately thought conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks.
He's a big conflict avoider, whereas I am more of a talk things through and compromise sort of person. I learned to become more of a conflict avoider with H because:
1. He thought conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks and I didn't want him to walk out.
2. If I got angry with him or complained about anything, he considered it a personal attack and wondered why I would stay with him if some of his behavior made me very unhappy. He would often say I "would be better off with someone else".
3. When my frustration/anger level rose to the boiling point, and I couldn't hold back any longer, I would try to stay calm when expressing myself, but H would either:
a. Say we should split up because conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks, or
b. Begin to do a spaz dance of rage & storm away.
4. Even though I knew that conflict and anger were normal in a relationship and that we needed to work together to compromise, H didn't know that. When I initiated a conflict or showed anger, his reactions were so extreme that I became afraid to have any conflict.
5. We both ended up storing up resentments and not communicating about what was bothering us. We withdrew more and more from each other, both feeling unloved and taken for granted. Hurt and silent anger set in on a daily basis and made room for a 3rd person to come between us.
When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
Well, after the bomb, there was a great deal of conflict and anger. I did a lot of raging & we both said a lot of things we both wish we hadn't. The thing that kept us together through that was that when one was being very negative and raging, the other would remind of all the things to be hopeful and grateful about. We kept pulling each other back from the brink of ending things. We now know that we can be furious with each other and still survive it.
MC and IC are helping H realize that he has some very unrealistic ideas what a good relationship is, and has some very dysfunctional methods of dealing with conflict and anger. He is learning that I can love him and still be angry, I can like and accept him, but still ask that he change some behavior that I feel is destructive to our R. He is learning that he can safely do the same with me.
I am learning how to temper my way of bringing up problems in a way that won't be misconstrued as personal critisism or general dissatisfaction with our R.
We have both identified the weapons that we have been using against each other, including holding resentments & pouting, silent treatment & withholding affection, controlling behavior, self-righteousness, using temper to intimidate (H only) and the (implied) threat of abandonment. We have been working on laying all of those weapons down, especially the weapons of mass destruction.
We are going back to kindergarten with MC to work through examples of how to resolve conflict and compromise.
Compromise and respect is key here, because in all M's, there are going to be issues that never get resolved, but should be approached in a way to minimize the negative impact to both people.
Hopeful_One:
Your comments about your H's history, taking a "stand", avoiding conflict, shutting down emotionally & feeling like he needed some control and freedom in his life....
Oh boy, big "ditto" on that with my H. We have now both seen a strong corrolation between H's relationship with his mother and the way he has behaved while in MLC. When he was 14-15, his mom told him to move out if he couldn't live by the rules. He chose to move out. Later, in H's early 20's, he had a falling out with his mom and "took a stand" to shut her out of his life. He had no contact with her and then felt terribly guilty when she died without them having reconciled.
All of the stuff that he had unresolved with his parents during his teen/early adult years came out full-force during MLC. I even noticed a strange pattern where he would do very inappropriate things, then almost dare me to put limits on his behavior. If I did put limits on his behavior or even asked him to do anything, he'd react like he was a rebellious teenager who would rather move out than "live by the rules".
I was baffled and confused by the way he was acting like more of a rebellious teenager than our actual teen-aged boys! Nearly everything I said and did was interpreted as being a "controlling mommy". I'm very glad that I didn't do a knee-jerk reaction by playing the part of the controlling mommy, but kept trying to relate to him as a grown man having an MLC.
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How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Honestly im not sure at all right now it seems evenly positive and negative.one one hand she seems to be opening ,then as soon as i turn around "slam" shut out again
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How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things
Im trying not to rely on the past at all. if i did there would be no hope for marriage.I dont want the same old relationship. i think it can and will be better given a chance
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How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I would probably see it the way my friends do. they are telling me to give up. that shes not worth it. i would also know that i caused most of this by my own actions no matter how minute they were. i would say you idiot how can you neglect her like this you are going to lose her if you dont change fast
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If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
im not sure. i would probably say to hang in there dont give up and stay the heck away from her for a while
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If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
shed be home already and would have never left me. and i would be putting her on a pedestal everyday and catering to her every need and she would me as well.
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If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
I dont really think she is just trying to hurt me. she really believes this is what GOD wants her to do.
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What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
Unsure. any suggestions??
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What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
IVE got to change things PERIOD........
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What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
we would be the kind of couple who truly love each other with all our hearts . we would be constantly caring for and nurturing each other. when other people see us together they would long for what we have.
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If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would be praying with my family everyday, i would teach them about GOD and i would try my best to make GOD the center of our marriage. and she would always know that i love and care for her.
PAT
Quoting Jamesjohn:
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
True absolutely, my W said that when we argued about things it just reinforced for her that our M was doomed. Originally we never much argued about anything, cause we both just deftly avoided conflict with healthy doses of love and avoidance.
I remember when we worked out some important issues years ago, it was because I brought them up and sort of forced the issue of talking about them. Then we were able to resolve them by talking and deciding how important they were to each of us. We were both giving up something it seemed, and that made it ok.
Unfortunatelt my W was a much better recipient of those kind of talks than me, as I tend to get defensive quickly and that just colors a conversation so that not much can be accomplished. For whatever reason I tend to link conflict (even conversational) with rejection, and it seems much easier to just postpone that talk than risk being drug over the coals I guess...I'm working on that of course, I know it doesn't have to be that way.
Avoidance of conflict is so much easier than grasping the issue squarely. Generally though it seems to me that it can build resentment and make the issues larger than they started.
Frank
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I dont really think she is just trying to hurt me. she really believes this is what GOD wants her to do.
Do you know where & why she's got the idea that GOD wants her to leave the marriage?
I don't know what religion that you & your wife is but there is NOTHING in the Christian Bible which Dictates a Divorce or wife ending a marriage EXCEPT for 1 ground & that's if one of the parties has defiled the marriage bed...
Hebrews 13:1-5 in the New Testament states this...
If she is trying to justify this by using the bible then maybe you can speak to your clergyman about why she feels this way & can go to a Christian Counseling Service - Together - that your clergyman recommends
I'll check on you thread to read what you have posted about your sitch & see if I might be able to give you a few more scriptures if you would like for me to look them up for you.
your friend
djembequeen
djembequeen,
i know it souds crazy,we are both christians. i have shown her every single passage from the bible concerning marriage and divorce. and there has been no adultery.
she honestly believes this. i tried to explain to her that the LORD is not going to tell her to do anything that will contradict the word, that if it doesnt coincide with the bible it is not GOD speaking to her. that he cannot contradict his own word.
what do you mean by clergymen.( is that the same as deacons im unsure)?? our pastor cant even get her to talk to him. and get this she is a sundayschool youth leader
yes any scriptures you can find. send them to me i need all the help i can get
thanks PAT
Hi JJ;
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my lovely queen! (Yes, I saw your picture in your profile!!)
Thanks for the compliment...
actually I needed it today PMA was a little down
&
that picture was from 2001 before I lost the weight!
So that really made me feel good!
I've actually been surprised by how few profiles are in fact filled out here on the board,
it would be nice to see some of the folks who are my moral support thru this...
but I'm one of those people who even fill out my instant messenger profiles as best I can feel comfortable with...
sometimes it's obviousily joke stuff but at least it's filled out & something to smile about
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Thanks for the feedback,
I figure that if I've got an idea then there are others who are possibly thinking the same,
just haven't taken the time yet to speak up
Thanks also for the link to the DR Discussions
I really like the way it's laid out with links to the differant threads of interest!
your friend
DjembeQueen
I'll be happy to look up scripture for you!
I think that we should either take those off board
or if there are others who are interested in looking at what scriptures have to say but don't know where to look & would like to see it posted...
we can start a new thread in a more appropriate place...
maybe the section where I see prayer requests would be a better place for such a thread...
but to keep your chin up & have a bit of strentgh
I'll end this discussion with this final scriture...
2nd Timothy chapter 13 verses 16 & 17
16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is Inspired of GOD & Beneficial
for Teaching,
for Reproving,
for Setting Things Straight,
for Disciplining in Rightousnesss"
17 "that the man of GOD may be fully competent, completely equipped for Every Good Work."
I'll add the new thread if 2 others post they are interested,
otherwise we can take this off board
thru either email or instant messenger
If you use instant messengers let me know your buddyname & I'll add you to my buddylist & you can add me to yours.
There is a yahoo group which is pretty quiet now the spammers have been kicked out
it has a chatroom if anyone wants to meet there
for live chat as well
I don't remember the actual link but anyone that has a yahoo id can join the group & use the chatroom,
others would only get emails of any postings
your friend
DjembeQueen
You may be completely right about the scriptures....but if YOU are the one showing her....you have a very high chance of pushing her away from scripture and from YOU.
Showing her these things clearly gives the message to her that she is wrong. And it alleviates you from listening to her feelings and what's going on inside her heart.
I'm not saying you're doing that....just that that is the message she is most likely to receive when you're doing that.
Yes, sg took the words right out of my mouth!
It's worth trying, and she may even agree with you on this, deep inside of her. However, if you're not getting a good response from her, it might benefit you to place your efforts in another direction, at least for awhile.
She may surprise you, and come around on this at a later time, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen right now.
Quoting tehach:
Avoidance of conflict is so much easier than grasping the issue squarely. Generally though it seems to me that it can build resentment and make the issues larger than they started.
Yes, it sure seems to be easier at times to just avoid the conflict, doesn't it? But yes, you're right that doing this CAN make the resentments and anger grow.
Maybe it's not always so much IF we have conflicts, but HOW we have conflicts. What kinds of boundaries we have for "attack" and "defense". Just what our "fight rules" are, so that the other person can feel safe, and still be able to voice there opinions.
What kind of rules do any of us have set up that seem to work? What have you seen from any couples you know that can successfully deal with conflict? How does your style differ, and what can you learn from them?
Wasn't there a book written (pretty old by now) about fair fighting?
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #2 -
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
Thoughts on this illusion?
What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! What do you think that their answer to this question might be?
In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives?
In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
What are their strengths and weaknesses?
How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again? How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
Again, feel free to take your time with comments and questions!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
Quoting tehach:
Avoidance of conflict is so much easier than grasping the issue squarely. Generally though it seems to me that it can build resentment and make the issues larger than they started.
Yes, it sure seems to be easier at times to just avoid the conflict, doesn't it? But yes, you're right that doing this CAN make the resentments and anger grow.
Maybe it's not always so much IF we have conflicts, but HOW we have conflicts. What kinds of boundaries we have for "attack" and "defense". Just what our "fight rules" are, so that the other person can feel safe, and still be able to voice there opinions.
What kind of rules do any of us have set up that seem to work? What have you seen from any couples you know that can successfully deal with conflict? How does your style differ, and what can you learn from them?
I think this is the important thing.
Conflict is inevitable.
Intensity level, styles of arguing, and styles of making up all vary.
My partner and I never fight over anything major. But we'll argue over our styles of dealing with conflict more than anything else.
I think it has to do with how we handle our anxiety, tension levels, how things happened in our families.....but have become our 'habits'. I don't think they are unchangeable things and un-understandable things. I don't think we have to exorcise our past for most of us. Just practice a modified style.........or for some of us....a 180....just to shock our partner.
I agree with you that avoiding the conflict can sometimes make matters worse. Little resentments that build up kill love.
For us a rule that doesn't work....is to deal with everything right away.....to never go to bed angry. Trying to force that rule makes my partner angry.
So a rule for us is to let each other have our space (even if I don't want it
and talk about it when he's ready.....he feels physically better about it...he feels better about us and me when we do it this way.......I'm not happy about the space it takes, but I appreciate the gentleness with which he handles the situation when he's ready....if he's not ready, it doesn't go well.
Another rule......to breathe....it lowers the intensity, the tight physical feelings.
Quoting talitsa:
Hopeful_One:
Oh boy, big "ditto" on that with my H. We have now both seen a strong corrolation between H's relationship with his mother and the way he has behaved while in MLC. When he was 14-15, his mom told him to move out if he couldn't live by the rules. He chose to move out. Later, in H's early 20's, he had a falling out with his mom and "took a stand" to shut her out of his life. He had no contact with her and then felt terribly guilty when she died without them having reconciled.
All of the stuff that he had unresolved with his parents during his teen/early adult years came out full-force during MLC. I even noticed a strange pattern where he would do very inappropriate things, then almost dare me to put limits on his behavior. If I did put limits on his behavior or even asked him to do anything, he'd react like he was a rebellious teenager who would rather move out than "live by the rules".
I was baffled and confused by the way he was acting like more of a rebellious teenager than our actual teen-aged boys! Nearly everything I said and did was interpreted as being a "controlling mommy". I'm very glad that I didn't do a knee-jerk reaction by playing the part of the controlling mommy, but kept trying to relate to him as a grown man having an MLC.
Talista! Are we married to the same man?
I have watched patterns with my H that are very similar. At one point, he was acting like a toddler, tantruming, even clenching his fists and stomping his foot when angry at me! I feel like he is now, in MLC, working through some of his more teen like issues. (Such as moving out and being free.) Last week I supervised a visit with him and our dd, at her swimming lesson and family swim time. I have noticed since he left, but this time especially, how he was gawking at the teenage swim instructors! He has always been very sexually repressed, and now it is like he is in puberty or something! It is so weird to watch a 40 yo man flirting and talking with teenagers. ::shudder::
I wish my H was talking and working on things like yours is. I hope we will get there someday.
Quoting pbrown:
djembequeen,
i know it souds crazy,we are both christians. i have shown her every single passage from the bible concerning marriage and divorce. and there has been no adultery.
she honestly believes this. i tried to explain to her that the LORD is not going to tell her to do anything that will contradict the word, that if it doesnt coincide with the bible it is not GOD speaking to her. that he cannot contradict his own word.
thanks PAT
Pat, I'm pretty much in the same situation. My H believes that God spoke to him and told him to "Depart, depart, shake the dust from your shoes." He is a believer, and I was not at the time, and the Bible directly says he should have stayed with me. (1st Cor 7) In my case, there is concern that my H is mentally ill, however, I'm now hearing that many Christians have thought that that God told them to leave their spouses.
I am going to church now, meeting with pastors, praying and reading the Bible. H says distantly, "Good for you, you keep up with that."
It makes no sense whatsoever from a Christian perspective.
It can hurt a lot when someone tells you GOD wants them to leave you! It made me wonder, well, what does GOD think of me then? A pastor told me to not let his idea of God taint the true image of God for me. God would never tell a spouse to leave their family, unless there is adultery/abuse involved.
Anyway, I'm sorry you are going through this. I wanted you to know you weren't the only one hearing such a message. Hang in there.
hopeful one
thanks for the reply, i just wanted to say that adultery is just an excuse for D it doesnt say you should D. if you get a chance read MALACHI. his wife was a prostitute and the lord told him to go and get her and love her all the days of her life. he used his sit to get isreal to turn as well. i think you will like the story.
ill check your thread first thing tomorrow. i might not be able to help much considering my terrible sunday sit uugghh
PAT
Im sorry i meant for you to read HOSEA thats the story i was talking of. malachi is where he says i hate divorce says the lord GOD of isreal
PAT
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #2 -
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
Thoughts on this illusion?
I always thought this meant you'd be more interested in each other for a lifetime. It can be really annoying, however, when you run up against big differences over and over. I am very motivated now to feel more appreciation than annoyance over our differences.
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What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! What do you think that their answer to this question might be?
I liked his independence (in terms of things like running his own business) and then it became really annoying once we had a family. I also liked listening to him expound on things, but eventually grew frustrated with that when it meant having a hard time working towards a point in a conversation.
I think my H liked my strong, emotional personality when we got together, and now it really bothers him. He also liked my "trailblazer" style, but eventually would have preferred a more mainstream, follower type of person. This may sound weird, but he liked how his family didn't like me, as he was rebelling against them. Eventually, this became a huge problem, which we would have likely realized if we had married at a slightly older age.
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In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives?
I am different from my H in that I'm more careful with money, more emotionally demonstrative (in anger and in love), more "difficult", less easygoing, more of a linear thinker. I could add some spice and emotion to his life, and I'm always bringing new things into the relationship (art, film, books, music, activities, etc.).
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In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
My H is much more optimistic than I am. He sees things positively (often to a fault). He is extremely talented in terms of building and creating things. He is extremely kind, warm, and positive with people. He is very conservative politically (while I'm rather liberal). He adds to my life a sunnier view, the ability to build or create just about anything one would want, positive interactions with strangers (who can easily then become friends), and a different perspective on the world. I actually miss our conversations on politics!
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What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
Strengths: intelligent, loving, committed, visual/artistic/creative, great sense of humor, spiritual, interesting, serious, willing to buck the system.
Weaknesses: fearful, often pessimistic, wounded, quick to anger, lacking confidence in many ways, may buck the system a tad wee bit too often.
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What are their strengths and weaknesses?
Strengths: Warm, kind, extremely talented, spiritual, intelligent, great sense of humor, hard working, strong, giving, positive.
Weaknesses: Irresponsible, trouble following through on important things (um, like taxes . . .), conflict avoider, rather shut down emotionally in his most crucial relationships, while warm and friendly with strangers/acquaintances, overly optimistic.
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How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
I don't know how, but looking at the two lists for strengths, it does sound like a pretty good team! Any ideas on how?
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What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again? How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
I could comment appreciatively on his kindness to people, his talent, etc. I could openly enjoy our differences politically, and express pleasure at having such passionate discussions, even though we disagree. I could within myself, and demonstratively to him, show appreciation that we are two distinct individuals. Both worthy and interesting and *different* from the other.
I guess the main way he would know is that I was showing appreciation, rather than criticism or anger.
I feel like I've had a great mental workout here!
Thanks, JamesJohn!
Thanks, Pat. You are right. I will read the book(s) you posted, and I'll check out your thread.
I had an interesting discussion with a pastor recently, who was explaining to me how there were reasons given where D was permitted, yet that God still hated divorce, and marriages could still be healed even though . . .
Thanks for the reply!
Hopeful~~
Thanks for getting back to me on your conflict avoider--lucky us! that is so interesting about his relationship with his mother. My H also has a strange R with his mom. She is very emotionally unavailable and I think he is trying so hard for acceptance from her and from his dad. He is the middel child. For a while, my love was enough, but all of a sudden it's not enough anymore. Possible MLC???
The family problems, coupled with the conflict avoiding and the rest of our problems are making a big mess!!
I too, have tried to give him his space. He is the one that wants to now have R talks and then cancels them--go figure!!!!!
Hang in there and keep in touch!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
For me, the answer is yes. Conflict is a bad sign. For my Monkey, conflict is just a chance to show off his wonderful debating skills.
I think the true answer is that conflict is a chance to understand each other better, if handled correctly.Quoting JJ:
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do?
Typically, we'd take turns not listening to each other, but forming our arguements while pretending to listen to the other speak. This typically became a shouting match in which I'd storm off to my room crying, with my Monkey following me. We'd yell some more, I'd cry and hide from him, in my journal or a book, he'd hide from me in his computer games. At one point, one or the other of us would approach the other and apologize.
Quoting JJ:
What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
We both tend to hide from the other in doing various activities to avoid conflict. With us being separated, it's even easier to avoid conflict.
We just don't call each other.
One thing I've done in the past and that he just recently did was to email the other person about the conflict. That allows the person writing the email to find a way to phrase the issue...and it allows the person reading the email to truly hear what the issue is. Feelings still get hurt, but there's no yelling involved.
Hugs.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #2 -
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
Thoughts on this illusion?
I've thought on this one a lot.
My husband tends to enjoy breaking the rules. I'll give you an example. When he was in his freshman year in college, he took his VCR and went running around at night. He knew anyone who saw him would think he'd stolen the VCR. A policeman found him, told him to go home, that if he saw him again, he'd arrest my husband.
I on the other hand, like to play it by the rules...I feel safer that way.
He hates rules that restrict him. I think rules makes us all safer.
So, a huge part of my journey on this path has been questioning whether or not I'd be better off letting him go and looking for someone more mature. I still don't have an answer.
What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! What do you think that their answer to this question might be? The above example illustrates this, I think. Also, I want a family, white picket fence, 2 children, etc. He wants adventure and excitement and no responsibilites. He's 29 years old...and right now, he has no major responsibilites.
In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives? I think I add a sense of stability. I'd like to think that I add an element of fun thrown in with hard work. I'd like to think that he's impressed by my ambition and hard work.
In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?He definately makes me lighten up and opens up a new world for me. I love playing computer games with him and have seriously missed that element of our relationship.
What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
What are their strengths and weaknesses?I think I'm the turtle, slow and steady, and he's the hare, running around, getting into all sorts of messes. I think we balance each other out...but I'm not so sure that he agrees with me on this.
How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again? How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?I think if I were to ask him for help in the areas that he's stronger in he'd know I appreciate our differences. I have also begun to do those things (on my own) that I used to enjoy doing exclusively with him.
Hugs.
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests". Thoughts on this illusion?
I think it’s very untrue. I had an ancestor who ordered up a mail order bride from his “old country” by nothing but a picture and brief description. When she got here, it turned out that she was from Sicely, not from his country. Spoke different languages, had distinctly different cultures and religions, but married first, fell in love after, had many children and what is described as a long and happy marraige. I can think of many other examples similar.
I think it is important to have a few areas of mutual interest that can be enjoyed together, but many differences can be accommodated as long as neither partner is being terribly infringed upon.
What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! What do you think that their answer to this question might be?
One of the things that first drew me to my partner was that he was dependable and stable. Later on, I got irritated sometimes that he got very routine about things and rather inflexible. At first, I was impressed with the amount of self-insight he had. Later on, I got annoyed that he seemed to be very self-absorbed and self-centered. At first I liked that he thought things out instead of acting first, later I got very annoyed that he procrastinates.
I think that part of what my partner was attracted to is that he liked that I was strong and could be very independent. Later, he got irritated that I didn’t consult with him about everything and would just do things to get them done if he procrastinated too long. I think that he liked that I worked in the legal field, but later grew to resent that I was trained to think in terms of law and the way it relates to placing limits on behavior. At first he liked that I didn’t let things get to me very easily, but later he thought I should be as stressed as he was if the house got messy or the kids acted up, etc.
I guess it’s that you can really like certain characteristics each other has, but each characteristic has a flip side to it as well.
In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives?
I think I am more positive, family-oriented, end-result oriented, creative, emotionally expressive and more realistic than my partner. I think I am less even-keel emotionally, less dependable, less considerate, more forgetful, more jealous and possessive and (somewhat) more controlling than my partner.
I think that he looks to me to help him be less cynical and more emotionally expressive than he normally is. I think my “get-things done” characteristic offsets his tendency to procrastinate, and my creativity and emotional expressiveness offsets his linear way of thinking and tendency to get too set in routines. He tends to be more of a loner than family oriented, and being with me has helped him be more connected to others.
In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
He is more stable in many ways, knows how to “play”, more likely to think things out before acting, more romantic, more idealistic. He’s less secure and has lower self-esteem, is more likely to avoid problems and conflict, lets things irritate him and hurt his feelings very easily, and is more restless than I am.
He tempers my rashness, challenges me to be more romantic and more considerate, pushes me to go out to play more (not always be so serious) and try new things, go new places. He challenges me a great deal in thinking out how to compromise and negotiate when we both get stubborn. I have to really think about the things I am grateful and express them when H gets too negative.
What are your strengths and your weaknesses? What are their strengths and weaknesses?
I think I covered all that above!
How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
I think I covered most of that too. All I can add is that we are more alike than different, and in most of the ways that we are different, we temper and compliment each other.
What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again? How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
I think I would express a lot more acceptance and appreciation. I would let him know that I sometimes wish he wouldn’t take things to extremes, maybe wish he would do a little bit of this or a little less of that, but that I don’t want to change him. I would probably tease him more and complain less about his idiosyncracies.
I would probably remember and respect some of his differences more and have been more considerate and sensitive to his feelings.
I would probably point out all of the ways that our differences compliment each other so he can see another perspective than that our differences make us “incompatible”.
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
One thing I've done in the past and that he just recently did was to email the other person about the conflict.
That allows the person writing the email to find a way to phrase the issue...and it allows the person reading the email to truly hear what the issue is. Feelings still get hurt, but there's no yelling involved.
This is great, PnT!
"Changing the Medium" is very often a wonderful way to "do something different", without having to change the "what".
Changing the where, and the when, often works wonders, too!
We'll dig much deeper into this in later steps!
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #3 -
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time."
How do you feel about this statement?
What things have you and your partner been arguing about that never seemed to get resolved?
Have there been any ways in which your heated arguments have changed over time? Have they mellowed in any way?
Have any of your disagreements seemed to have maybe become less important than they were before?
Have you been able to just "agree to disagree" about any subjects?
If so, how were you able to get to this point?
What works best for you in "choosing your battles"?
How do you sort out what's important to resolve, from what's not-so-important to resolve?
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I seem to have a "gut feeling" that is very strong that things are going to happen, this is not how it actually works out in real life however I have been able to convince myself of a lot of things through using the "gut feeling".
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
A lot, to be honest, I seem to still be judging reactions and actions on the past, my expectations of people are built
on the past....
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
It would be great because I would be in someone else's shoes so that I wouldnt be going through this crap!
Seriously I would advise to maybe hang in there a little longer, it may well change for the better.
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
Very different, I have been in the sitch with my W before and I am basing a lot on what has happened before.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
She is depressed, confused, overworked, running , hiding from reality & commitment - a common trait in her life?
Will answer the rest soon....
I really need to think a bit more deeply about this.
Cheers
Dark
Hi talitsa!
Wow, what a great, honest look at your differences! Neither one right, neither one wrong, just "different", right?!
As I was reading through your post, I was thinking that you've got a lot of great material here to work with when you're looking at 180's! Wouldn't it really blow him away if YOU were to display a trait or two of his that you described?! Even for just a time or two!
It would be interesting to see what kind of change THAT would bring about!!
Which leads me to say.....
As you're working through Step 1 here, take note of some of the new and interesting ideas you're discovering about your relationship, to help you work through the next steps. It will really help to use your new found "beginner's mind" to plot the rest of your course!
There's lots of great stuff here from everybody!!!!
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In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives?
Interestingly enough, I think my H and I have become more and more similar through the years in the way we deal with problems. We have been married almost 9 years and together almost 16. I have never liked conflict, but I think living with a conflict avoider has made me MORE of one. Is this true for anyone else?
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In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
On the surface we seem similar--outgoing, frinedly, good sence of humor, etc. But in reality, he is not as outgoing, etc. as he may seem after you get to know him. Make sense? He has become more of a loner--kinda sad because I need to be around people!
He has added to my life by teaching me so many practical things. I tend to be more "book smart" and he is more "street smart". At one time these things seemed to compliment each other perfectly....now I wonder!
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What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
S~~ positive, friendly, happy, smart, loyal, good freind, dedicated, energetic
W~stubborn, temper, conflict avoider, perfectionist, controlling (I'm working very hard on the last two or three...)
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What are their strengths and weaknesses?
S~smart, hard-working, used to be....thoughtful, loyal, loving....this is SAD!
W~conflict avoider, controlling, dishonest (when avoiding conflict), stubborn
I see so many similarities in out strenghts and weaknesses. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? How do I make the best of it?!
Hi Darkness! Glad you made it over here!!
One thing to be very aware of as you are DB'ing is the power of the "self-fulfilling prophecy". It's easy to be so certain that things are going to follow a pre-determined path, that we actually help things along the way.
We may "know" that things are eventually going to turn out bad, so we ignore the good signs, and are constantly on the alert waiting for the other shoe to drop. We focus on the negatives.
On the other hand, we could start expecting good things to happen, and may not be quite so aware of any little setbacks that may occur. We can focus on the positives, and see things going along a better path.
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
Tough question...I'd say conflict and anger are normal and are NOT necessarily signs that the relationship is failing. However, the resolution dance that my H and I have participated in for 25 yrs. goes like this: Initially, I become silent and withdrawn...H becomes "invisible." We would go without speaking (unless absolutely necessary) for a day or two and then one of us would "break the ice" by initiating a conversation totally unrelated to the original point of contension between us. My H has never been one to discuss or delve into the "reasons" of why he's unhappy about something or disatisfied etc. I was always the one to probe and take the temperature of our relationship. I tried to draw him out, get him to speak freely about his feelings but he kept them closed up and locked away from me. Over the years I guess I surrendered. I threw up the white marital flag and said to myself, "That's it, I quit, one of us can't make this work by ourselves." So I stopped asking questions, stopped worrying about how he felt etc. THEN, he used that very "silence" that he'd instigated from me as a huge part of his "justification" to cheat. Go figure.
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #2 -
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
I think PART of this is true. I know that I have come to realize that my H's and I NOT sharing in the interest and activities of one another helped drive a wedge between us. We are in many ways very different. I like the opera and theatre, he likes Harley's and fishing. While I would participate in some of the things he liked, he would adamantly refuse to participate in the things I enjoyed. My H acts as if doing anything that he would associate with a "Yuppy" lifestyle would somehow make him less manly or something. The ridiculous part is, my H makes an excellent living. Until we sold our (his boat) last summer, we were cruising around in a boat that sells in the six figures. We live in a high end home on the river and he goes around in Harley t-shirts hoping someone will assume he's still just a guy from shanty town or something. When he had his A's, he even picked uneducated, "redneck" women that he hid from public view...I just don't get it.
I to come from relatively humble beginnings and have worked hard to reach a certain level of financial comfort for my H and I and more importantly our sons. I am neither ashamed of what we've built for our family over the years NOR do I interpret who I am through ANY of those material gains. I am still the girl he married, all the same values, expectations etc...apparently over time, those characteristics have become something he distained.
In this final attempt on my part to bridge the gap that has grown between us, I began to actively join in some of the things he likes. Over the past two months I've spent the day fishing off a pier with him, I've gone on several Harley rides for the day etc., and I truly enjoyed each outting. He came up with several "date" ideas that included a Harley ride but the trips were to crab and craft festivals or to a destination to enjoy a nice lunch etc..
So he obviously also sees the need to somehow blend the things that he enjoys doing with things that I would enjoy doing....and it's been a great experience for both of us when we have.
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #3 -
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time."
I have to ponder this one.
For my Monkey and I, a major disagreement that we had was him spending enough time with me.
I think that's been resolved through our separation because I've changed my definition of what is 'enough'.
Also, I'd feel a martyr and a victim because I was working on our relationship and he wasn't. I addressed this recently on my thread and realized that he is contributing, in his own way at his own pace.
I'd say that separation has been good for me because it's given me the chance to gain some perspective on our relationship and our issues.
Hugs.
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #3 -
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time."
I think that my H's and my biggest "disagreement" hasn't yet been resolved. My H is a member of AA and has been for 20 yrs. He has adamantly kept that part of his life solely unto himself. He resents the fact that if I chose to, I could enjoy a cocktail. He dislikes people that drink. Out of respect for my husband's sobriety, I can tell you that if I've had 1 alcoholic beverage for every year he's been sober...it's been a lot. "His" friends are almost exclusively AA people. I am NOT invited to know them, participate in any social connection to them etc. The 2 women he eventually had his A's with were members of AA. So with all that said, in my eyes, our greatest disagreement is that I resent and refuse to accept that he is allowed a "private/secret" AA life and I get what's left. Since the poop hit the fan he has cut back on his AA participation. He still goes to ONE regular weekly meeting but he's stopped going to the four or five he went to when he was setting himself up to cheat.
I will never again accept being "ban" from any portion of his life, especially now that he's used the one area of his life that I allowed him far to much 'space' (AA) to betray me.
I am no longer able to accept "I don't know" for an answer because I've come to learn (the hard way) that "I don't know" is a way to avoid the truth.
As we are now both "trying" to work through our issues I am being patient with respect to not expecting all the negatives to change overnight..since they developed over many, many years. And I know that until my H is willing to tell me what he needs or what he thinks he's been missing in our R...that I won't be able to meet those needs. I can't see in the dark any better than anyone else.
I'm always 'open' to self analysis and change...if my H will tell me what he feels I need to 'look at' from his perspective.
My H's mantra has always been and in many respects continues to be: "People can't change, they are who they are."
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How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
we can never be SURE of anything...or rather as they say the only things certain in life are death and taxes
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
oh far to much, I sit and wonder or rather try to gage with some fictional meter, mmmm was h doing this or that then? sets me up for real trouble and gets me making a whole lot of assumptions that are typically negative
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
this is a tough one. sometimes I think that if I were listening to a friend tell the same story I am living I would see more positive than I do on my own, but (yes I know LL's infamous but) there are also times when I would look at my sit and say either suck it up or get out.
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
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well I would tell myself to look how far we've come, focus on the positives, recognize what has worked in the past and stick to it, stay responsible for your own happiness, stop blaming yourself for h's indiscretions, and a whole lot more. would I take that advice? depends on how big the 2x4 was
last night I went to the c alone...I hadn't gotten a sitter and felt I could use the time alone with c to let out some fears that only seem to frustrate h so alone I went. As I sat there semi-complaining about things I did take a step back and ask out loud if the things that have happend didn't happen (affair and seperation threat of d etc) would I be happy with the way the r is going now and I couldn't answer or maybe was just afraid to answer what if the answer would still be no? is it even possible to put out the past that completely?
so then my question I suppose is how to piece after the initial piecing? when the "pressure" seems to be off the was to "win" you back again is gone and things seem to drift back toward that dangerous comfort zone?
what to do with a partner who isn't "active" in the piecing proccess.
How to heal on your own (without need for reassurance from returned was)
LL
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time."
How do you feel about this statement?
I feel that the statement is partly true, but not necessarily always true. I think that respect for each other is very important. If my H and I were arguing about something that was very important to me, I would look for ways to be true to myself, but accomodate his feelings as well.
I think it depends on the issue to be resolved. Things that are very desctructive to the relationship or really victimize one or the other are not really acceptable. For example, if it turns out that my H didn't just have an A, but is actually incapable of monogamy, I would find that unacceptable and end the R.
This issue about needing to resolve conflict between us came up in our last MC session. My H was describing our different driving styles as a problem. He thinks I drive too slow, I think he drives too fast & tailgates. He gets mad when I get nervous when he's driving too fast, and so on. He insinuated that this was evidence of us not being compatible. SIGH.
I told him that my parents have been having the EXACT same conflict for over 30 years, and it had never occurred to them that they were "incompatible" or should get a D over it! Their driving fights are legendary in my family, but I guess my H never witnessed one himself.
What things have you and your partner been arguing about that never seemed to get resolved?
Too much conflict avoiding in our R to have many actual arguements. H feels that he isn't treated like he counts because I make decisions (especially about the house and the kids without talking to him about it first. I admit that I do alot of that, but my H works nights. I often don't see him, literally for days at a time except sometimes as he's rushing out the door to work just as I'm coming home. He also works every other weekend. He doesn't have the kind of job that I can call him about every routine decision that has to be made. I would like more participation from H as a partner, but most of the time, he's just not available and stresses out about problems with the kids so I just handle things. I feel like a single mom in many ways. H wants to be a partner in decision making, but doesn't want to change his job or his schedule and I can't switch to a night schedule and neither can the kids so we're always out of sync. This is an example of something that we both agree is a problem, and both basically want the same thing, but go round and round and round about.
Besides that, one of our other major arguement is interior decorating because we have somewhat different taste.
Issues over raising kids, money, etc.
Have there been any ways in which your heated arguments have changed over time? Have they mellowed in any way?
We do NOT have many heated arguements. I think we are both afraid that a big arguement will cause a nuclear meltdown of our R or that one of us will loose our temper & beat the c**p out of the other. If it can't get handled calmly, we just don't go there.
Have any of your disagreements seemed to have maybe become less important than they were before?
Sure, sometimes I just have to say "that's just how my partner is" even if it bugs me or I don't understand it.
Have you been able to just "agree to disagree" about any subjects?
Yes, but mostly about things like political or spiritual beliefs and not about major issues in our R.
If so, how were you able to get to this point?
What works best for you in "choosing your battles"?
Hmmmmm...taking time to think about what I'm battling over. If the issue isn't to private, I talk to friends that may have dealt with something similar and see what their perspective is.
I rarely dig my heels in and start a fuss--but I'm really good at doing a slow burn and holding a grudge. So is H.
How do you sort out what's important to resolve, from what's not-so-important to resolve?
By being clear about my values and what is important enough to me to take a stand over.
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
Thoughts on this illusion?
In the beginning it was our differences that drew us together. I believe that he still reflects on our differences positively, however, it is his EA that skews that view right now.
What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! What do you think that their answer to this question might be?
In the beginning it was cute that he was a dedicated softball player and we traveled to alot of tournaments together, now it is annoying with our 3 kids I can't usually go and his EA intrest is on all 3 of his teams and travels with him instead.
In what ways are you different from your partner? What things might you be able to add to their lives?
He has given me alot of grief for 'acting like his mother'. I am the responsible one, I don't drink and drive and caution him against it, I party conservatively because I am aware of the impression this will give our pre-teen daughters, I don't go out to bars often (he goes to the sports bar 5+ days a week with 'the guys'), etc. If he would take on some of the responsibilities I could relax a little and re-discover what FUN is, I have honestly not had FUN in years. Enjoyment - yes, FUN - no.
In what ways is your partner different from you? What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
He is the type of person that everyone likes. He is a genuinely nice person and the fact that he no longer loves me and doesn't care to ever love me again is rare for him. If I could learn to be as at ease with others as he is, my life might be happier in the long run.
What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
My strength is that I am a strong individual and very capable of taking control when necessary.
What are their strengths and weaknesses?
My weakness is that I tend to try to take control too often, but deep down, I am dying to have someone else take over and be the boss
How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
We had formed a funcitonal relationship over the years, I thought. Our children are very well behaved and respectful, our personal affairs are in order and until his MLC and EA, we had a wonderful relationship in important matters. It is the personal matters that I seemed to have put on the back burner for 10 years too many. Is that rule of thumb in the book accurate? Estimate 1 month recovery for every year you were married? That gives me 10 months and I am in the Military and due to go over seas for a few months in OCT.
What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again? How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
If I knew then what I know now, I would have paid more attention to things he mentioned and the importance he put on certain actions. I might have tried to get more involved with him and those things he is interested in. he in return would have likely returned the favor. if only I had ....
Quote:
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time."
The main issue (besides conflict avoidance and possible MLC...) that casued our separation and led us on the road to a possible D is the question of starting a family.
I was not ready and my H could not seem to understand/accept that. I was also stubborn about it and avoided talking about it (this would be a conflict...), which didn't help.
No matter what happens in R talks now that we are apart, this issue continues to come up. I am working through this issue with my C but H can't see that. How can you consider a family when your M is on the rocks?
I am so tired of this never ending argument and the way that it always turns out the SAME WAY!! How do I stop it?
Quote:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
well i would not want to delete all the past... just the events of last year up til now & maybe even 2001...
I'd like to go back to when we lived in a big 2 family house in a nice quiet town that was easy on & off to the highway...
We did have our problems then but we seemed to be able to work them out better...
Hubby wasn't making nearly as much money as he is now but we weren't so deeply in debt then either, just poor money management on his part trying to be a big spender one christmas got us evicted from a beautiful apartment that was bigger then some houses...
We use to play video, card & board games together as a family & with others,
we went out on some paydays both in our town & in the capital
& on occasion to the night club so I could go dancing
The goal wasn't to get drunk back in those days, but hubby who has a low tolerance for any kind of alcohol wouldn't think twice about having me drive
& only on a rare occasion would I tell him that I was having a bad day & this was my nite to drink so he's quit after 2 beers... period & those were early so that he'd be sober enuf to drive us home afterwards
I would like for us to get back to that type of home & town again & lifestyle again, ideally it being our own 2 family...
I would like to see us doing things together as a couple with other couples & decent poeple who aren't just looking for a good time mooching...
I'd like to see more huggies
& just more fun in our lives not revolving around drinking like it use to be
I'd like to see us going on the mystery cruise that we always talked of doing with a group of people
& taking the cruise to one of the islands that we spoke of doing with the other set of grandparents
or going camping like I've been wanting to do, but
he's not done with me but did do with the drunk bunch
I'd like to see him doing the computer repair that he was suppose to be learning so that he's have an income to fall back on if things didn't work out with the Comcast AT&T merger/buyout
since it is possible that the AT&T employess will be the ones downsized due to his units not going union last year when they had the chance...
I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but that's what I envision for the ideal future...
I'd like to be able to more honestly & openly speak about our needs both emotional & physically...
I'm tired of feeling that I've got to always censor myself because I know that he's uncomfortable about talking about personal things like sex,
so I've never pressed for details but it in fact has stifled our relationship...
This marriage is over...
I don't even want it anymore...
I want a NEW MARRIAGE with my same Sweet Kinda Cute Guy... I know that he's in there somewhere in the alien bodysnatcher...
I just want to know when do I get a chance to re-meet my hubby & really start over
Quote:
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
I'm guilty of having Blinders when it comes to trying to accomplish goals...
without thinking about it I'm one
who'll just do what needs to be done
& sometimes that leads to total complete focus being on the goal
& forgetting about the people who matter most...
my family...
althou it's for them that i'm throwing myself into what ever project that I'm working on...
althou I've not left or abandoned my family physically
i'm sure that to them especially my husband
it may have appeared that way (abandoned),
because I'll be so exhausted that I'd be bitchy
or fall out & crash for a few hours
only to get up & work some more on the project at hand...
even with his illness I treated it like any other project & do research on it
& be on the phone for 8 hrs a day sometimes
& then when he got home from work I'd try to tell him about what I'd did & found out & who I called
& instead of getting positive feedback from him
he didn't want to deal with it
so I just threw myself more into more research
so that I could get him well again
so he'd be back to being the fun happy guy I use to know
& that just didn't happen
instead he ended up with a diabetes diagnosis
that he couldn't deal with
& I missed the fact that he was having a real hard time with it
& just kept with my "nursing" attitude...
get the work done, keep calm, no matter what...
show no emotion to the patient...
it was my son who pointed out that one day when he was REALLY ILL from possible food poisioning
& was actually scaring me as I was trying to be calm & figure out what was wrong with him
by asking 101 questions
& talking of the work that needed to be done that day...
Son said that he was sitting there thinking that
"I'm going to die on this toilet & she's only talking about what did I eat & what we've got to do today"
he had no idea that inside I was panicing as to
HOW I was going to get him into the car
so I could get him to the proper hospital
(18 yr old - almost 6' tall & I've only got 1 good arm to work with)...
my outside appearance was calm, cool & non-chalant as if this was a common ocurrance...
I showed no sign of the panic which I really was feeling
Hubby most likely felt the same
& that opened up the EA for the OWhore
which lead to the PA after he left to go "back to the womb"
I wish I could turn back the hands of time there,
but can't
I don't know how to turn off the "nursing attitude"
but I wish that hubby could at least
look at things from my stand point...
my "nursing attitude" saved his eye sight back in 1994
when I got on the phone
& BITCHED at the Doc to see us immediately after lunch because hubby DID NOT have PINK EYE!
the eye surgeron who we ended up going to later
in the same day said
"THANK GOD you DID NOT take NO for an answer...
HE WOULD HAVE BLINDED PERMANETLY in that eye!"
The attitude does serve a purpose...
even in our car accident
I was more badly hurt than him but I was trying to get the 1st aide kit & not panicing...
but like Son who asked about my attiude after the crisis was over
He should have said some thing about feeling neglected...
getting meds taken on schedule
& administering 1st aide is not a job which can be done always in the most "caring loving" manner...
when time is of the essence,
orders many times need to be barked out
(Son didn't realise that he was a bit incohertant at the time)
& when a patient isn't following orders
it's not a time for sweetness
but simple matter of fact take these now
because u need them to get well...
maybe for the meds I should've been a bit more understanding but with a sugar reading of almost 600!
well it was not a time for me to be sweet
I had visions of him being dead next to me that nite!
A few nites after that
I woke up & he wasn't moving & was cold...
I thought that he had died!
until I managed to start turning him over
& he finally breathed!
You don't know how badly that freaked me out,
but I didn't tell him about until
a few days before he left
& then in an email afterwards
because I knew that he'd turned a deaf ear to what I said that nite I told him...
I'm trying to see things from his point of view but haven't yet been able to really see it...
he's not logical right now since he's full blown MLC...
I'm still trying to figure out how I can curb the "nursing attitude" but can't figure that one out yet either
Once I did my research on his diseases
there were many things which I no longer got upset with him about
I discovered that they were a result of either the disease or the meds which he was on,
being tired & sleeping so long,
not performing in the bedroom the greatest
(never complained verbally but maybe body language gave me away?)
the moodiness...
also symptoms of Depression & MLC,
which I didn't know to even look for at the time!
Then the increase of drinking & hangging out which only added to the health problems...
but he didn't want to see it that way...
can't go back & change things but how do I NOW go Forward?
I mean I can try to be not so focused on projects when I get doing them
& try to do them when he's not around...
but how to change the nursing attitude?
which I think really ended up hurting his feelings
& I didn't mean to that's for sure!?
Ok-I'm in, I just recommitted to reading DR and DB again and THIS time, taking action (1st time thought reading was going to be good enough!)
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I am not sure about anything these days--except that I am sure that I am going to give 150% effort in trying to save my marriage!
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
When it comes to the negative things, I tend to look at the past and present for learning about what not to do. I know that I have been the "mother" in our R--in the beginning it was necessary because he was new into being a recovering addict, but I could never let go of the reigns--even today I try to let go, but H continually does things to put me in that role--I don't think intentionally, but out of habit. If I try to pull out of that role, then I'm the b##ch. I'm trying to find new ways in the present to detach this aspect lovingly--welcome suggestions. I do use the positives from our past and present to predict the future, because I feel we've had a good M and the areas that were problematic can be fixed--so I reflect on the good times from the past, the loving daily goodbye kisses while 1/2 asleep --those keep me going..and then when I see a baby step I cautiously am reminded of what the M could be like.
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
If I were an outsider, I'd think--you are an idiot for sticking this out. You deserve better treatment than this. You are nuts for trying all this. Why do you want to be with a man who is with another woman? I'd see all these perspectives---but also hope that I could see that love is unconditional and we don't know why people love other people sometimes..
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I would post that it is not over until you are ready to say it's over. Keep trying what works and stop doing what doesn't. Follow your heart's desire--if that is to save the marriage, then pull out all the stops-use all the tools. Set your boundaries and keep to them. I think I would take this type of advice well--in fact last week I was losing hope and Talitsa replied to my thread saying she saw a lot of hope for my sitch and after she pointed out a few things I began to see what she could see--positive advice helps big time!! It's a lot easier to follow positive advice than the negative! Went to A today for information only--she tells me "he's not the man you thought he was"--DUH-he's been taken over by an alien (for now)..but the man I know and love is still buried deep down there!
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
I think this should be a question for H to consider. You see it is only now that I look upon some of our past and see faults in it--I wasn't the one who was unhappy in the M (in hindsight, I wasn't overjoyed--but accepting that there are ups and downs). I think if there wasn't any history to consider there wouldn't be the mothering, co-dependance behavior that seems to be part of the root of our problems--there would be no mother in this M, just equal partners enjoying a mutually satisfying M.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
I know he's not trying to hurt me and he has said it over and over again that he never meant to hurt me. I honestly believe he's in a cross of MLC and addictive behavior--but the drug of choice is a 25 yr old OW--given that I don't think he has had control of this starting--I think it just happened and before he could stop himself it was too late--the temptation was already too strong. But I completely believe him that he never meant to hurt me--but the fact that he can acknowledge that fact and not stop hurting me is hard to take--but that is part of the tunnel and the disease!
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
In general, for years I seemed to have blinders on that everything was o.k. But H was unhappy for several years. Also, 4 years ago when we hit speed bump #1 (I'm unhappy, we don't have fun together, you don't make me laugh, I'm not attracted to you physically)--we did MC which helped somewhat, except we failed to do our homework after MC was done--and I had gone on to lose 50 pounds which in hindsight I know back then I thought that would solve all the problems--I wasn't fat anymore--so all would be great. I was wearing blinders, not realizing that we continued to grow apart--I could see we weren't together that much,but acknowleged other reasons for it at the time--more blinders...but still felt we had happy M when speed bump #2 happened last August after buying first home and starting to talk about starting family--(H says not happy, no fun, no laugh etc etc)-we both go into sep.C and work on ourselves, no MC-H didn't want, but said R was better, he had his own issues working on with C, but we were ok. Then this year we hit the pothole--same reasons, but now there is OW who fulfills those needs (affection/attention-laughs-fun-sensual)..so again got hit blind-sided...if I had seen the signs I may have been able to get H to MC before the A started--should have insisted on it last year when things were better just to make sure!!
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
My eyes are bad-I can't even see the dot!! Seriously-it would represent endless possibilities....
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
We COULD have a super M--one where we put each other first, one of equality, laughter and fun times to share. I would love him in his love language and be sure to show him that daily. We would communicate much more clearly when things bothered us so that there would be nothing left unsaid/undone--no resentments to be harbored.
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
Hmmm..clean slate--well that would be AWESOME!! I would suggest that we go to MC to find tools of how to build a lasting, satisfying relationship-I would make sure H knew that I loved and desired him, I would work on my sexual inhibitions so that I could love him more freely--I would suggest we have weekly dates--always making a special time for "us", while still having time for our individual time/interests. I would support him in his endeavors as I would expect him to do the same for me. It would be wonderful!!!!!
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
I say false and I think H would say false too--it's how you deal with it that matters and contributes to the possible failure of R
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
i tend to be pretty easy going and usually avoid conflict and anger. But I do know how to push H's buttons and when he gets angry-the best thing to do is to let him have his space, but I tend to continue to want to talk it out, etc etc--which just escalates the situation even further--a few times to the point where he had to leave to cool down before he would say something he didn't mean..(shortly after moving into our house last year we had a blowout about me wanting everything to be done and perfect when we moved in and he was frustrated because he felt he wasn't meeting my expectations and that i wasn't complmenting him on what he had been doing--he called me a selfish b##ch-which he's never used language on me before and then he left--3 hours later, one STAR WARS movie later he was home, we apologized, made love and went to sleep in each others arms) However, overall, we never really got into huge arguments or heated discussions--we used to have the debate often about me mothering him and my reply was often either "well you didn't have much of a mother to begin with" or "if you'd stop acting like a child then I wouldn't need to mother you"--two very awful statements that just fester on-going resentments for him. I know this now and am diligently working on changing that behavior/attitude!!!!
LL,
You said, "As I sat there semi-complaining about things I did take a step back and ask out loud if the things that have happend didn't happen (affair and seperation threat of d etc) would I be happy with the way the r is going now and I couldn't answer or maybe was just afraid to answer what if the answer would still be no? is it even possible to put out the past that completely? so then my question I suppose is how to piece after the initial piecing? when the "pressure" seems to be off the was to "win" you back again is gone and things seem to drift back toward that dangerous comfort zone? what to do with a partner who isn't "active" in the piecing proccess."
WOW....you took the words right out of my mouth. I've been tormenting myself with the same questions, doubts, & fears.
This week, my H is home "testing the waters" to see what it would be like to stay here w/me since we've been getting along so well the past few weeks. It's just a "trial" as we've had a few "sleep overs" the past month or two that have gone well and we've been "dating" regularly and seeing each other quite a bit on my days off (my work schedule is erratic). Well he has stayed over Mon & Tues nite...and it's like sleeping with your 1st cousin....if ya know what I mean. He's restless, he acts as if he'll turn to stone if his foot touches mine etc....I don't know if it's because he's use to sleeping alone after all these months of separation OR if he's unconciously keeping me at a distance even in his sleep. He's "normal" during other times. He is still very skittish if he thinks I'm about to say anything R oriented (which I don't) and it's dawned on me that he hasn't said "I love you" (as he had begun to do) in the past few days....I am DBing and seeing some really positive "baby steps" but, at the same time I'm seeing regression in other areas from him where he is doing more of "his same"....all of which led me back then to withdraw from him. I'm becoming exhausted. I keep asking myself, why am I still working so hard to hold onto a man that thought nothing of destroying me to get his cheap thrills on blueberry hill?
I'm tired of doing all the work. I'm tired of having to treat him w/kid gloves. What if in the end I've wasted even more of my life in the hope that he would wake up.
Is there no end to thier selfishness?
T2
Hi everyone!
As I'm reading through everyone's answers and comments about their "differences", I'm seeing lots of good examples of the "see-saw effect", where the more one person does of something, the less the other will do. It seems like this is sooo instilled in human nature, and something that happens without us thinking about it, or even being aware of it!
I'm seeing lots of great groundwork being started here for when we get to step 5, and really putting the techniques to practice! Lots of places to do "180's", to "act-as-if", or to "do nothing".
Be sure to keep these things in mind when we get to that point, and when we're laying out goals here in the near future.
Great job, everybody!!
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #4 -
"In healthy marriages, spouses have the same definition of what it means to be loving
From your point of view, why is this illusion wrong?
How would YOU define "loving"? What would this mean to you?
What things has your partner done in the past that made you really feel loved?
How do you think your partner would define "loving"? What would it mean to them?
What things have you done in the past that you think made them feel really loved? Things that have gotten positive responses from them?
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #4 -
"In healthy marriages, spouses have the same definition of what it means to be loving
The first part of this question is easy for me....everyone is different. We come into every relationship (even friendships) with our family history, life's experiences etc upon which our "view" of the world has been built so as individuals we all have our own personal agendas and hierachy of needs priorities.
To me, loving means putting someone else first OR at least second (since I've NOW learned that you can't truly love someone else if you don't love yourself). Love means taking into consideration how everything you do will affect those who love you and self monitoring those decisions and choices in order to protect the ones you love from suffering as a result of them.
In the past, I felt my H's love through some very simple things....he use to call me "Pal"...he's beginning to again. To me that nickname said to me, "I love you, you're my best friend." I treasured that. I feel loved when I feel that he's making ME a priority in his life, that hasn't been the case for many years...but he's coming back to that in small baby steps.
Now the tough part of your question..."How do you think your partner would define "loving"? What would it mean to them?"
I honestly can't answer that right now, I don't know anymore, I'm trying to figure it out.
In the past I THOUGHT that telling him I loved him, maintaining a beautiful home, being a good mother, being a full contributing partner financially, keeping my appearance up, was showing him I loved him. But over the years as I grew resentful of his "privacey"....I withdrew my emotional and eventually my physical attachment to him...until we'd become virtual strangers in our own home. Now everything's changed...so I don't know anymore what he'd "need" to feel loved or to trust that I can love him in the way he needs.
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #4 -
"In healthy marriages, spouses have the same definition of what it means to be loving
From your point of view, why is this illusion wrong?
How would YOU define "loving"? What would this mean to you?
What things has your partner done in the past that made you really feel loved?
How do you think your partner would define "loving"? What would it mean to them?
What things have you done in the past that you think made them feel really loved? Things that have gotten positive responses from them?
Well, having read the 5 Love Languages book, I see that there is many different ways to express love.
For myself, I love physical touch most of all.
My husband on the other hand, isn't sure which of the 5 languages is his, he likes them all.
However, he really likes it when I look at him with eyes shining happily, hanging on every word.
Hugs!
Trying24now -
MAYBE some of the ways that he feels loved haven't changed, just possibly some of the circumstances that you're facing have?
I'm not quite sure where to go with this, but it really drew my attention when you said......
But over the years as I grew resentful of his "privacey"....I withdrew my emotional and eventually my physical attachment to him...until we'd become virtual strangers in our own home.Your resentments over what he was doing, his privacy, lead to you withdrawing, which lead to the two of you becoming strangers.
As I said, I have no specific thoughts right now, just that this might be something to take a closer look at as we work through these steps.
Maybe working backwards, and regaining the emotional and physical intimacy, which might make him less private, which could lead to you being less resentful? Or any of these things in no specific order?
ANYTHING to make a change in the what's happening. Keep an open mind, and we'll see what kind of solutions we can dig up!!
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
However, he really likes it when I look at him with eyes shining happily, hanging on every word.
Cool!! You found something that works!!
Who knows, maybe doing enough of this might lead into him talking YOUR love language!!
"Let's get physical, physical. I wanna get physical, physical. Let me hear your body talk...."(I've always loved Olivia Newton John, especially at the end of "Grease" when she comes out dressed in her leather's!
I think that I'm the only person in the western hemisphere with a vinyl album of hers! Sorry, I digress!)
Anyway, great observation, my dear!!
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #5 -
"People Just Fall Out of Love".
How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
How do you feel about Michele's staement of "If your spouse reports falling out of love, just say nothing and remind yourself that nothing is permanent. If s/he fell out of love, s/he can fall into love again"?
What do you think about NOT talking to him/her about your "feelings" of love for each other? About not putting any pressure on them to talk about it?
What do you think are some of the differences between "being in love" with a person, and "loving" a person?
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #5 -
"People Just Fall Out of Love".
How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
OK I'll bite...Of course its a choice, but it seems like such a normal natural one to me that I don't think much about it...Unfortunately for my W it seems like its an ordeal for her just to acknowledge her feelings for me, she seems so bent on proving that she's right and has "fallen" out of love. Her eyes give her away but it looks like she's made and communicated so many decisions with her friends and family that its easier to put out the lights on us than acknowledge that she ain't so sure about those words anymore (DB'ing has made this possible I must point out).
I think that the "feeling" might just be the catalyst that provokes the "decision" but when the layers of psyche are corroded with negatives it just short-circuits that connection and the decision is not made. The decision for her is just to keep the status quo which happens to be "Godonlyknowswhatshappening" between us. So I'll deal with that reality, but for me it's much more of a rational decision that today I make at many little tiny junctures.
Quoting Jamesjohn:
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
She forgot my phone number, does that count?
Sadly, I thought about priorities a while back and I fall around number seven or so with W. I guess in our former life I wasn't all that attentive to her and her needs and thats why she got the impression that I didn't care. I was too busy with work and projects and stuff... Today, she's got so much distance forced between us that only through my efforts does any contact exist between us...Dwindling by distance I guess...I tried showing through my actions and words that she's a huge priority for me but that was a cheeseless tunnel, so now I just go with what works and that happens to be infrequent, "unplanned" encounters that I usually initiate (going dark was not working well so I abandoned that).
Frank
JJ,
You make me laugh.
I too love Olivia! I practically have Grease memorized, the first time I watched it was when I was 6 years old!
Hey, she was DBing in the end of the movie...doing more of what works and less of what doesn't!
And those leathers definately worked!
giggle.
Hugs!
Quoting Jamesjohn:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #5 -
"People Just Fall Out of Love".
How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
How do you feel about Michele's staement of "If your spouse reports falling out of love, just say nothing and remind yourself that nothing is permanent. If s/he fell out of love, s/he can fall into love again"?
What do you think about NOT talking to him/her about your "feelings" of love for each other? About not putting any pressure on them to talk about it?
What do you think are some of the differences between "being in love" with a person, and "loving" a person?
I have to agree with this. The funny thing is that my husband has always been a Vulcan. Never let his emotions rule him. Always went with logic. I on the other hand had always been the emotional one in our relationship.
So, it's strange to me to try to explain to him that he needs to go with his mind on this one, not his heart.
Talk about role reversal.
When we first seperated and then began talking again, I made sure to not tell him I love you, at the end of our conversation, as was my habit.
When he finally said that he loved me, after several months of me DBing, I gasped and whispered, "Say it again." and he did.
Now, I notice that the times when he doesn't say it, he's having doubts that he's trying to deal with.
If he doesn't say it and I do, then he'll respond, but it's so much nicer when he says it first and means it.
I think loving a person is what we all are striving to do on this bb...unconditional love. Being in love, in my mind, is the euphoric feeling we get when things are going wonderfully!
Hugs.
"People Just Fall Out of Love".How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
______________________________
My H is the textbook version of "I love you but I'm not in love with you". I still think that love is a feeling. When I look at him I am sure that he does NOT love me. If it were a choice, why do I hurt so much? I've only been working with DR for about three weeks, am I still too new?
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
______________________
As I said in a previous reply, after reading the DR book, I realized that I made a lot of mistakes. Our work and kids seem to have become the only things we do together anymore. I'm working on the 180 and starting to get some positive response. The 'as if' seems to work pretty good but I'm still a rookie and boy is this hard.
How do you feel about Michele's staement of "If your spouse reports falling out of love, just say nothing and remind yourself that nothing is permanent. If s/he fell out of love, s/he can fall into love again"?
_____________________________
I'm 'choosing' to believe Michelle is right on this. I want to make him fall in love with me again. I haven't said I love you to him in over a month and I have not asked for a kiss or hug in almost three weeks. We still live together, but he is out with the boys most nights and I feel more like a roomate than a W right now. This was a good week though, he has been pleasant and not said hurtful things ... yet
What do you think about NOT talking to him/her about your "feelings" of love for each other? About not putting any pressure on them to talk about it?
___________________
I'm working on this and I think it is working. Keeping my fingers crossed.
What do you think are some of the differences between "being in love" with a person, and "loving" a person?
______________________
This is tough. He loves me like a sister or cousin, not a W or lover. There are no casual touches on the shoulder or sweet, affectionate looks, there is no genuine intrest in my life and he seems a little self-centered (i.e. worried about his promotion, his appearance, his sports ability, his social calendar)
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
Hey, she was DBing in the end of the movie...doing more of what works and less of what doesn't!
What she did was also definitely a 180 for her, too!!
Wow, maybe we can start a new DB'ing film study group, and look for the DB principles that are used on-screen!!
And those leathers definately worked!
They sure worked for me!! Myself, I was a teenager when I first saw this, smack dab in the middle of raging puberty hormones! Ever since then, I have fondly refered to her as "Olivia Neutron-Bomb"! She just blew me away!!!
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How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
I too, have heard ILYBINILWYA....I tell myself it is a choice and that my H still cares for me and what happens to me, but doesn't have that "high" of being in love. Is it okay that I told him I'm not in love with him right now either??
Quote:
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
We definitely took each other for granted before our separation. I regret that so much now!!! Things are so clear to me now (hindsight is 20/20!!) and i wish I knew then what I know now. If so, I would have treated my H differently and we probably would still be together or at least working together at saving the M!
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What do you think about NOT talking to him/her about your "feelings" of love for each other? About not putting any pressure on them to talk about it?
We've been S for 9 months today
and I stopped saying ILY about when I started DBing (May). I feel like it puts less pressure on him to say it when he doesn't feel it (or at least think he feels it). It is so hard!!!
Quote:
What do you think are some of the differences between "being in love" with a person, and "loving" a person?
I think "being in love" is a "high" feeling when you find seomone new or when your S does soemthing that gives you a rush of emotion. Loving someone is so much more--caring, respect, mutual goals, teamwork, etc!! I think when you LOVE the person, you are in it for the long haul--no matter what!!!
More new stuff is continued here....
Step Number 1 - Part 2Feel free to continue on with what we've talked about so far here for awhile, too!
Quote:
Quoting Jamesjohn:
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The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
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False. Conflict and anger are natural when human beings live together. We all have our own views and opinions and there is no way they will always be the same. The problems arise from how you deal (or not) with the conflict. From my H's point of view - sure you will sometimes disagree but one of you should just button your lip and agree with the other to keep the peice, and then bitch about it to someone else behind your S's back. Avoid confrontation at all costs - even if that means not speaking to someone for an extended period.
Quote:
Quoting JJ:
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How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quoting PnT:
Typically, we'd take turns not listening to each other, but forming our arguements while pretending to listen to the other speak. This typically became a shouting match in which I'd storm off to my room crying, with my Monkey following me. We'd yell some more, I'd cry and hide from him, in my journal or a book, he'd hide from me in his computer games. At one point, one or the other of us would approach the other and apologize.
Are you sure I am not you and your monkey is not MY monkey
this is the same pattern that we followed.
This would typically happen with us except to begin with I would try to discuss the issue. H would start digging up dirt from the past to divert the issue, I would run to my room crying.............it would end with me apologising and making a peice gesture like a cup of coffee or something.
Quote:
Quoting JJ:
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What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
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quoting PnT:
We both tend to hide from the other in doing various activities to avoid conflict. With us being separated, it's even easier to avoid conflict. We just don't call each other.
One thing I've done in the past and that he just recently did was to email the other person about the conflict.
That allows the person writing the email to find a way to phrase the issue...and it allows the person reading the email to truly hear what the issue is. Feelings still get hurt, but there's no yelling involved.
Again..did I write this? I find it extremely hard now that we are separated, we tend to not explain fully what we mean or not actually finish the conversation. Recently we have been discussing difficult topics or mis-understandings by e-mail. My H especially finds this better as he is the World Champ at putting his foot in his mouth. This way he can really think about what he wants to say BEFORE he hits send. Also I can "DB edit" my reply.
Also, in the past I would tend to get very upset about something for an extended period before bringing it up. And I would generally bring it up at bedtime, which H hated. I didn't do this intentionally, just that I would hold it in for so long that it would usually spill out at the end of the day. H was tired and had to get up early so it was very bad timing. I can't do this now as we are sep. The e-mail thing helps as it doesn't matter when I send e-mail, H can take his own time to read and reply
Quoting Mfl:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">
The e-mail thing helps as it doesn't matter when I send e-mail, H can take his own time to read and reply
How do you think you can translate the skills you are learning right now to the time when you are together, in person?
Quoting sgctxok:
How do you think you can translate the skills you are learning right now to the time when you are together, in person?
Excellent point, sg!!
One thing that I've found is that a lot of people are VERY uncomfortable when there is any silence in a conversation. They seem to have to fill up the "dead-air" by saying something. Even just ANYTHING!
Although there may be absolutely nothing wrong with this, if this is what you would "typically" do, it might be an area for change.
Some people take longer to form thoughts in their heads than others, trying to get the words "just right". Others may be looking for you to "bail them out", to have you speak first, so they don't have to.
Either way, this is definitely one area where you could experiment with, to see if you can change the normal rythym of things a bit. To do something that's "unexpected", just to see what happens.
If communicating through email is a way that seems to work best for you, slowing the conversation down a bit might be an effective tool when it's time for "live" conversation.
thanks sg and JJ
H does not talk much about "us" or our R or the sitch right now. In fact he has only done so two or three times in 9 months! I still do not bring up our R because any time I do I get the same "speech" (if slightly modified) that I got when the bomb dropped.
Occassionally something will just "come out" in conversation and usually neither one of us knows what to say. Me - usually because if I persue that line of conversation I know I will hear things I don't want to hear (avoidance?) and H - because he seems to want to always say the right thing, or "make things look right" so as not to upset me. H still says he doesn't know what he wants, but will not stop seeing OW, spend more time with me and S1 or make any committment to working on our M. I think that is why when he does say anything I was not expecting I panick inside and just clam up. The only time in my life I have been stuck for words
At the same time H calls a lot, panicks when he cannot get hold of me, and hangs around for a long time seeming reluctant to leave when he does come round. It's like he is waiting for ME to say or do something. Anytime I have I get the speech. Round and round in circles at a dead standstill.
When something has come up and then neither one of us has carried it along I think a lot about what I shoudl have said afterwards. I'm never sure if I should bring it up again the next time we see each other or wait and see if he does. He usually does not. Having thought about what I would like to say - should I go ahead?
hello
finally got my copy of dr and read thru to the first step - start with a beginner's mind
i must admit that i pulled a few gems out of this - but the number one point i drew from this step is the manipulation factor, which was something i was definitely dealing with
i hate head games, because i have always felt my h was playing them with me, and i never wanted to do the same to him, but michele helped me tremendously with that question and subsequent comment on what manipulation really is
also, patience is something i really need to work on, and she emphasized the point on that - i must be patient
thanks to this site for being here
kitti
Quote:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Right when I think I'm sure that my H and are going to reconcile, he backs out! So I'm not sure anymore what is going to happen.
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How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
Before I db'd I relied quite heavily on the past, present to support my negativity. Now while db'ing I try to leave the past behind and get a new 'How things Could be attitude with my R.
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How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
Looking in on what is going on between my h and I, I would say that my H loves me but is really hurt and confused. That he's not trying to intentionally hurt me but doesn't know what to do. He wants to change things but doesn't know how and he sees me doing more of the same it makes him hopeless.
I would say that he'll come around he just needs time.
Quote:
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I would say to me LEAVE HIM ALONE! Don't be his doormat but be friendly, loving, act as if it doesn't bother me! Get a life outside of him and stop obsessing about him. Go to counseling. But I wouldn't listen, it's taken a couple of really hard knocks to get me to...which is what has happened! So now I listen
.
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If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
You would see me happily having a life, my h having his, us together with our family. We could have fun together and separately without there being trust issues. Affection would be abounding and ILY would frequently be said.
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If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
My h is just hurting and confused and lashing out in anger. he blames me because he doesn't want to see his wrong, he already feels bad enough.
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What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
If I took my blinders off I would see that my h has some legitimate concerns that I do not validate when I talk to him. I'm always so busy trying to defend myself that half the time I don't stop and just listen to him. Oh, and that I'm not a bad wife, there are things that need fixing but I'm not an awful person. And just because he's made the decision to leave, I'm still ok.
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What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
Things could be: 1. we would talk more (no talking before), 2. would not assume things but state openly what we are thinking and feeling with a measure of tact of course, 3. ILY would be said freely and frequently, 4. affection would be common, 5. date nights would be a weekly occurance, 6. raising our kids would be a joint effort, 7. family goals, 8. values would be discussed and upheld, 9. our families would come 2nd to the needs our spouse.
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If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
My r would be one built on trust. My H and I would have weekly dates, friends outside our r, activities outside our r, ml more than once a week, talk about things that bother us right away, be affectionate, plan for the future, be vulnerable with one another, have fun together, laugh more, touch each other more, put each other first in our lives.
cfronk -
I see that you've got a pretty good grasp on things that you could improve in your relationship, and know where you want to go from here!!
"He wants to change things but doesn't know how and he sees me doing more of the same it makes him hopeless."
This is where you have the advantage. Just by being here, and learning some of the things that it takes to create a better relationship, you can help to lead him towards a path where there is some hope!!
You have listed so many wonderful thoughts to the other questions that you answered. It would be hard to believe that your husband wouldn't agree with the end results of what you're saying!
Keep working here with us, and I'm sure we'll find some ways to help you get to where you want to be!!
quote:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
_________________________________________________________
This is the main question I seem to keep coming back to. The past is my problem i.e....I can't seem to get over the mistakes H made that broke my trust. I thought I had forgiven but can't seem to forget and he's right...I crucify him over it.
H came back to work on our M but I obviously keep returning to the past and how he was. He says I'll never change because I refuse to see that he's changed. Maybe he's right, but I think I can change with a C help.
In a nutshell...if there was no past history I wouldn't be here and my M would probably be flourishing because H is my best friend and before his "betrayal" of my trust, we had no major problems.
~~~Debi
sad_n_lonely -
The past is my problem i.e....I can't seem to get over the mistakes H made that broke my trust. I thought I had forgiven but can't seem to forget
This is such a tough place to be. It seems that even when things are going good, something happens to spark a memory, and brings back the pain. I don't think that any of us, at any stage of the game, are immune to this.
I'm sad to tell you that there is no "magic wand" that can be waved to take those memories away. Nothing that can be done to instantly relieve the suffering you feel. Yes, it can go away with time, but, more importantly, it goes away with a lot of work.
The work involved isn't so much in trying to forget the past, but in trying to embrace the present, and envisioning the future.
The one main thing that I've seen that works is to keep filling up your heart with things that help you to push out the "bad" things that have happened in the past. To concentrate on embracing the good things that are happening right now, and envisioning your hopes for the future.
This can be one of those "easier said than done" things, and will take a helluva a lot of effort. However, it does go back to the idea of "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself".
What things might he be able to do to regain your trust? What could he do that would make you more confident that he really is trying to work on your relationship now?
P.S. If you haven't read this already.....
Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself
quote:
____________________________________________________________What things might he be able to do to regain your trust?
____________________________________________________________
Actually he has regained some of my trust. H has tried and I didn't appreciate him enough. Therefore he thinks all he has done has been in vain. It is more an issue of my insecurity than him trying.
quote:
____________________________________________________________
What could he do that would make you more confident that he really is trying to work on your relationship now?
____________________________________________________________
At this point he has walked away...again...and is back to the "I want to go my own way" speech. I am back at square one and very afraid I blew the chance he gave me to work on it. I am starting from scratch now.
~~~Debi
Quote:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I'm sure only about what I want and what I can make happen; and I don't want a D, and so far neither does my H. So we will have to build from there. We are friendly and don't fight, so I think we can become friends now. Only I can work on me . H still has OW, but I don't dwell on that part as she was part of what he was looking for to replace an emotional need.
Quote:
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
Well, I was rely a lot on the past, but in the last 4 days I've decided to not do that; trying to open my mind as much as I can. Negative things? Bury those nasty things, starting fresh with a clean slate. The future is not ours to see.
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How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
OK, I have been assuming to much lately and trying to figure out what my H is thinking. So let's change that.
I have only been seing the negative in the way my H reacts to things. So I would say to me: work on building a friendship with H, look for the little steps and rejoice in them. Compliment H, show appreciation for things H does. Learn to forgive myself and H for his infidelity. Be patient. Listen and have compassion. I have stopped the nagging, and it's great, I feel like a better person. And it allows my H to grow.
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If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
It would be a new beginning, knowing that all M have their ups and downs, accepting them.Choose my battles wisely. Learn to know what it takes for my spouse to feel loved. Learn to give even though I may not understand or agree with it. Spend more time together. Forgive each other and not put the blame on either one of us apologise when I'm wrong, be generous and giving.
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If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
MLC, thinks he is getting old and me and the family are holding him back.
1) H taking things from property-this is a major problem as I think of it as negative-H moving on-
positive-H is mowing down tall weeds and getting rid of the clutter.
2) H not paying bills- maybe he doesn't have enough money.
3) H not calling-doesn't want to bother me?
4) H not coming over very much-giving me space
5) H not wanting to spend time doing thing together-doesn't think we have a chance to fix our M?
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What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
How my H feels about me.
Quote:
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
A light shining, hope.
Quote:
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
My H and I forgiving each other and ourselves. Building a new life together, better and stronger. Being there for each other. Sharing our lives together. Being a family. Giving to each other what each of us needs. Being the best of friends.
Ok, that took a lot out of me, I need a nap now.
Deb
Recently (a week ago) in my stitch I've had the heartache of finding out that there is already an OW. We've only been seperated since 6/03. Its been the roughest week of my life, however, I've decided to wipe the slate clean and start over.
In thinking about this and reading this thread it hit me. How many movies have we seen were the H and W get back together because the WAS saw all the changes for the better that the LBS made and wanted to be apart of that. Here I am wondering if there is anything I can do and if DBing really works and all I have to do is switch on the tv. They're DBing right infront of us.
I know thats Hollywood and fairytales...but don't they sometimes come true in real life? So these are my thoughts...how can I make that happen for me? Even if my H and I never get to reconcile at least I can say that cleaning out the cobwebs was worth it in the long run. I'll just be a better somebody for someone else.
I look forward to working out with you all in the 7 Aerboic Steps.
Here are my personal goals:
1. I will attend every class. (college classes)
2. I will walk at least 3 times weekly.
3. I will loose 40lbs by end of December 03. (already lost 20lbs)
4. I will enroll in Adult Oil/Acrylic Painting class.
5. I will set up a Personal Debt managment system.
6. Find my own place to live.
R goals:
1. H will contact me.
2. I will end conversation first.
3. I will not bring up OW nor be pulled into convo about OW.
4. I will be polite/friendly not short and hostile.
5. I will find something in every conversation to compliment H on.
It's not much but its a work in progress.
I am really trying to Start With A Beginners Mind. I have a hard time because I continue to
revert back to my old ways. I get very frustrated with myself and can see that my H is also
frustrated. I'm sure he's thinking, I'll never change. An example, my dad died this last week
My H and he were very close. I know that my H is hurting, he is feeling bad because he did not go to seee my dad in the hosp., so I try to
comfort him by saying that he can make it up to my dad in other ways (meaning we can get back together)
after saying that I knew that I should not have. But what he needed was for me to just llisten.
I would liked to have hugged him, but I am afraid because he will think I'm chasing. I want to go back to when we just met. and start over, but how do you do that when you the history?
I could see that my H was thinking, but what about? He said he feels guuilty by breaking up the families
so was he just feeling more guilt, or was he thinking that maybe we could work things out? I don't dare ask.
Julie
Quoting jme:
I am really trying to Start With A Beginners Mind. I have a hard time because I continue to
revert back to my old ways. I get very frustrated with myself and can see that my H is also
frustrated. I'm sure he's thinking, I'll never change. An example, my dad died this last week
My H and he were very close. I know that my H is hurting, he is feeling bad because he did not go to seee my dad in the hosp., so I try to
comfort him by saying that he can make it up to my dad in other ways (meaning we can get back together)
after saying that I knew that I should not have. But what he needed was for me to just llisten.
I would liked to have hugged him, but I am afraid because he will think I'm chasing. I want to go back to when we just met. and start over, but how do you do that when you the history?
I could see that my H was thinking, but what about? He said he feels guuilty by breaking up the families
so was he just feeling more guilt, or was he thinking that maybe we could work things out? I don't dare ask.
Julie
Hi Julie....I'm so sorry to hear about your father. It's tough. You're grieving, your H is grieving.....give yourself a break.
Just be gentle...with yourself and with your H. Don't try to force anything either way or suggest too much. Trust you will be in the right place at the right time. That you are so now.....that whatever space you have between you.....you can use for your own grieving and your own healing.
You need to be comforted, and you want to comfort him....that's just too tough right now. I am sorry you are going through that. Just take comfort in all the love you've had from your father, your H, all yoru family and friends...........that doesn't ever really go away. Look at all the love you have in your heart. Just remember all those things.
It's so good and kind of you to love him and want to care for him and his pain.
Just back way off from asking him. If he isn't in a space where he can respond the way you want him too, it might be way to painful for you, and doesn't really need to be descriptive of the future.
Give yourself time. and gentleness. and kindness.....you deserve it.
Let us help you.
Hello to John and everyone,
I am a newbie on this board, commited to changing myself and renewing my marriage. My husband has moved out. I believe there is hope because he still loves me deeply and I feel the same. It may be a case of MLC as he is 51 and just lost his job, parents are ailing, sexual problems, and
he has been stuck with me, a very difficult wife who has been going through her own MLC for a long time. Anyway, even if it's not MLC, even if he is just fed up with me and wants to find happiness without me, which is what he says, I still believe him when he says he loves me and I will hang in there until he files for divorce. So, with that, I am ready to begin step one. Here's my responses.
"How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?"
I can vividly see my H and I reuniting in a more loving, more passionate, more committed relationship. I am SURE that we will establish a new relationship and continue our marriage.
"How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?"
Yes, I know that I wallow in the past and have had a pessimistic viewpoint on the future because of that. With God's help, I am learning to trust myself again. And I have an appointment with a therapist next week to work on personal growth.
"How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?"
I would see a man who struggled for months, years, to figure out how to make me happy and who finally decided that he had had enough and was going to make himself happy for once. So, even though he still loved me, he decided that separation was the best solution. I would see a woman who had made herself emotionally and financially dependent out of fear and low self esteem.
"What would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?! "
I would say to myself to back off, give your H space and time, to detach from the situation and allow yourself to grow as a person, to become more independent and above all to find out how to be a happier person by yourself. I would also advise myself to continue attending your new church, and allow God to work his miracles in your life.
"If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?"
I could be such a happy person, successful in my career, with a wonderful family and a romantic committed relationship with my husband. I would feel safe and loved.
My life would have balance, between work and love. I would be able to enjoy the normal things in life, like social relationships, without fear of not "being good enough."
"If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?"
My H has his own journey and I may not be a part of it right now. He has to find his own way. He is trying to figure out what he needs and wants for the rest of his life. An extremely important process!
"What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?"
I need to understand why he needed to make his job his total focus and how I contributed to my own unhappiness in that situation.
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
??????
"What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?"
My H and I would be passionately committed to each other. We would enjoy each other's company and look forward to spending time together, no matter what the activity. We would have long, involved conversations, sharing our most private thoughts. We would have friends that we both enjoyed and an active social life. I would be involved in my job, and my art, and feel a sense of satisfaction and independence from my H. I would choose to be married to him and spend the rest of my life with him.
"If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?"
I would understand that my H's love is not to be taken for granted. I would show him my feelings for him are deeply held, offering affection, being generous with myself. I would be supportive, give encouragement to him, let him know that I am proud of him. I would let him see the part of me that is loving, cheerful, passionate, creative, and confident because I am all those things!
Now, empty your minds, and let's begin!!!
Hi frisky!
Wow, you are off to a GREAT start here!! It looks like you really put a LOT of thought into doing what it takes to make your first steps towards positive changes!
It looks like you've got a good grasp on a lot of realities, and have some great visions of where you want to be. Keep all these thoughts you have here in mind as you're working through the rest of the steps, and I'm sure that you'll make some fantastic strides in your marriage!!
Great job!!
"A good grasp on realities"
I don't think so, JJ. My H told me he is no longer sexually attracted to me. So, back up to question #1 -- I have no idea what will happen. I am very pessimistic that he will love me again. He seems determined to detach from me.
So, back to the drawing board. If there even is a drawing board anymore.
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I’m not sure at all! One minute I think that there is hope and I am sure that this will end with him moving home and life returning to normal. The next minute I am convinced that I can never change, he won’t ever change and its time to let go.
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
All too often. Since the past seems to keep repeating itself, I rely on it to predict the future almost every day.
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
Probably the exact same way my friends and family see it. That H is unmotivated and has too many problems from his childhood that he is unwilling to deal with. That I am acting like a doormat and allowing him to walk all over me and that I need to get some chutzpah and tell him to beat it.
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
I would tell myself to keep trying, and that it isn’t over until it’s over. I would focus on the fact that H has never said he wants out of this R and continue to lovingly detach.
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
The future would look so bright! Without the past, I would not know how easily H was able to deceive me. I would then trust him, and myself so much more.
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
Well I know that everything he is doing is not meant to hurt me. The problem is, I feel that he doesn’t seem to notice that it does hurt me. I would see his behavior as self-serving and irresponsible, exactly what I view it as now.
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
The biggest area would be infidelity. Before DB/DR I thought that every affair signified the end of the relationship. Which is why I asked H to leave. If had taken off the blinders six months ago, things may have turned out quite differently.
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
H telling me “things are blah”. A big dot that I never considered significant and is now the focus point of everything.
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
They could be great. We could be happily married and raising our son in a loving environment. We would be each other’s best friends, and there would be no space for another woman.
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction? What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are? What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
If we were starting with a clean slate, I wouldn’t be so critical. I would be trying to impress him, and he would be doing the same for me. I would accept him for who he is and not for who he may become. He would do the same for himself.
hey jj..
i have read DR.. but i was intent on it solving my probs i dont think i really comprehended what i needed to do.. chapter one, a couple weeks later is finally seeking in. maybe it was inital shock of wife just leaving out of nowhere i had to accept.. i am ready to think and lose the old habits.. set new goals and have patience for them to come to be.. my faith is low, however, and since she left it shows how determined she is to move on.. i know she is confused, but to say she isnt in love with me anymore, but still cares and loves me in general really sinks deep.
how do u become "the one" for someone again when they feel it isnt meant to be.. ?
i know what i need to do.. set them goals, make them changes, etc.. but wow is it discouraging to get feedback like that.
i have difficulty knowing how to take action... i know the changes i may need to do such as, be more attentive to her needs (which unfortunately now is to be left alone), do away with negatives about the R, do away with the pursuing, be a friend who listens, can advise, and be supportive...
prob is i have seen her once this past week and that was monday, it went horrible... havent seen her since and talked for seconds at a time on two occasions.
its frustrating.. and i miss her madly..
still confused but having times with the feet on the ground and head out of the clouds..
thanx for listening jj and others..
robert
Quote:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I'm uncertain but I'm trying to figure out whats going on in his head as well as mine by reading & chatting with other DBers
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? I've found that there are times when i can predict whats going to happen by the past & have also learned to read his attitude by is "new" behaviors - like when he's in Family mode he'll wear 1 hat & when he's in Party mode he'll wear a differant one
Especially about the "negative" things? This MLC thing has me confused, sometimes the "negative things" pop up from out of the blue & hubby blindsides me, like this past weekend - why bring up what he knows will end up being a fight when he already knows that he's not going to go to the party if I say that I'm not going to be without a car - so he's got 2 choices Stay Home with me or Take me & Prove there's nothing going on with Robin - he already knew the choice he'd made so why bring up the party so we can fight needlessly?
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? The man's a punk - mama's boy & needs to grow up & stand on his 2 feet
What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life?
I'd most likely tell myself to leave, I can do better than I am - I'd tell him to grow up & get with the program - he's got a good wife & family that loves him go home & work it out & forget the losers
How might you see things differently? Right now I really can't see things differantly - it's been over 1 yr of this MLC BS & those who know why I'm still around & what I'm trying to do are all saying the same thing that I'd tell myself if I were on the outside - I deserve better than this kind of treatment, most can't or won't try to understand in this land of easy divorce why I'd try to hold onto this mama's boy
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread,
what would you post to yourself?
STOP EVERYTHING! Start Here
What advice would you give to you? Start here on this thread while waiting for delivery of DR book
& get a Solutions Journal
& actually do the work in the book -
in addition to posting to the board -
chat via the instant messengers to help get some instant feedback
How well would you take that advice?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Wish that I'd had this before all of this craziness started & so far althou I've fallen off the DB wagon a few times so far I've managed to get back on & start over & it's now 1yr 3+ months of replay now that I know what this BS is & hopefully I'll be able to continue on to see the end of the MLC & have my hubby returned from the mothership a better more mature version of the man I married back in 1992
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like? Honestly I'm unsure of how to answer this question -
there are 2 possible futures that I'm looking at right now -
in 1st MLC ends quickly
& hubby's in good health
& we move forward to Stage 5 on the Marriage Map
& get the home of our dreams after 3 years in our own 3 family investment home -
the 2nd is not so rosey a picture
MLC continues & hubby's health detioriates
possibly blindness &/or partially crippled sets in
& this causes hubby to lose his job
hubby ends up in a nursing home
'cause his parents aren't able to care for him
(they are retired & on a lower income trying to work parttime themselves now)
or I'm allowed to care for him because I'm the wife
either way hubby's likely to be even worse depression
than the MLC depression that he's in right now
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with? I do know that hubby's got some childhood issues that he's got to work thru & this MLC fog has him drinking rather than facing his issues
I don't like what this MLC has him doing to escape from his troubles but I can try to patiently wait this out & be here to pick up the pieces when it's over if things turn out badly for his choices of dulling the MLC pain
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective? My "blinders" - have come off since getting DB & DR
I've been more concious about the things that I'm doing & saying
I've noticed my cheeseless tunnels
& am doing my best to avoid them
althou I do still end up down some of them -
at least I know that I'm heading down it
& am stopping the behavior earlier
what I need to do now is find some alternatives to try
I've been unfocused & a bit scatter brained reactting
rather than thoughtfully experimenting
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?! the end that is in sight just distant for the moment
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are? If a miracle happened overnite & everything was perfect
I'd wake up & hubby would be snoring quietly by my side naked with a smile on his face
Our family would notice because he'd be here in our bed instead of spending his nites so much at his mom's house
his job would notice because he'd once again start talking about me like he use to all of the time quoting things which I've said about various things I've learned & told him
His "new bad influence friends" would notice because he'd no longer be hangging out & letting them use up all of our money
Our old friends will see it because we'd start to go around them again
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? More open communication is what I'd like to see
More expressive of whats inside instead of censorship
More FUN - going places & doing things like we use to do when we were dating & 1st married
Discussion of major purchases & budgeting so that we can afford the nice things in life
A home of our home
What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction? Would or Could now be doing? I'm not sure how to address this question -
This is sort of a cheeseless tunnel as in the past that's been a problem we've had
I try to lead the family along the path which will benefit the family & hubby seems to undermine the plan
maybe the key is to let him actually lead
it's just that hubby's always been a follwer from what I can see
as he's failed to lead the family
which creates troubles that I've had to find a way to get us out of -
quite frankly I'm tired of that behaivor & would love for him to really LEAD the FAMILY
I'd appreciate some helpful suggestions as to how I should best handle this Idea of Leading into the Right Direction hubby seems to always undermine the plans which I lay out in front of us wheteher it's my idea or his own, the plans always seem to be undermined-
Now, empty your minds, and let's begin!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well I'm working on Step 1 this next 2 weeks - both online as well as in my newly re-Started Solutions Journal
My New Years Resolution to do ALL of the Steps
In Order & to Completion of ALL 7 Steps!
Could use a few chat/instant messenger buddies who are also going thru the Steps this january -
any one want to share the ups & downs of the Steps?
your friend
djembequeen
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #1-
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing. False is my answer
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer? I I think hubby would answer True, as he seems to run away From Conflict & uses Avoidance on the Issues that he doesn't want to deal with; ie the need for a budget
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? Not very well -
I'm the one who'll get explosive when I'm upset - I've been working on staying calm but still find that I'm NOT GETTING THRU because I end up doing the Broken Rcecord
he's unwilling to discuss things calmly before they become problems & either watches the TV or just zone out
once in awhile he'll come out of the blue with something & then won't continue the discussion to conclusion which frustrates me - pushing the button on me that gets me ranting & raving
What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? Depends on the Nature of the Conflict & Who's "starting the conflict"
I have a tendancy to try to talk over something & the tone of voice increases as the frustration level rises
He has the tendancy to put off all discussions that deal with unpleasant things that he doesn't want to deal with
he'll watch TV & zone out rather than participating in the discussion
or he comes out of the blue blurting something & then won't discuss it any further
or he doesn't discuss things that he's going to do & then gets mad when I question whats not been done or what he's doing & still doesn't fully explain himself - many agruements could be avoided if he'd simply discuss what he's planning to do & the reason for it
What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? I try to ignore things or try to talk things over so that I can understand whats going on
He won't discuss things so that I can understand the reason for what he's doing
He watches TV when I'm trying to have a discussion
When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? It seems like it's been forever since we've had a successfully ended conflict,
I know this isn't true but it just seems like it at this point as we're in the middle of a MAJOR Conflict
what worked before his MLC for the major conflicts isn't working this time,
right now 1/06 to 1/14/04 we seem to be stuck in a conflict cycle that just doesn't seem to be ending,
even thou I'm trying to calm the situation down he seems determined to escalate it -
so what I've done is let him have the time alone that he's requested
even thou I know that he'll just use this conflict to justify in his MLC fog mind that he's right in his outrageous behaviours
The last times that we had conflict that was close to what what we're going thru now & we couldn't seem to get to how to stop
I forced us to have a discussion in the car drive that was long & we were in the car until the air was cleared - it was a long time coming, the 1st time we literally were in the car from 7am when I picked him up in the morning from work & stayed in the car until what seemed like forever - but past sunset & once we got to the major issues & seemed to be opening up to some what was the problems & solutions I let him take control of the car & we got something to eat & finished on a happy note
MLC Conflicts seem to be non-stop so far this year - just finish getting calm from the 1st & suddenly there's a new one... all actually seem to be intertwined just escalating, but the last 2 escalations are due to hubby just blurting out & then not taking to conclusion the discussion - major issues involoved & the 1st escalation he knew his choice prior to bringing up the discussion & the best thing would've been to simply forget the discussion in the 1st place
(he's pushing my buttons - why I'm unsure but my theory is to justify his misbehaviour that he's got planned next)
When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? I'm trying to figure out this right now but since I'm in the middle of a Major Conflict Cycle that I'm unsure how to get out of at this point I'm not sure.
What were you both doing at the time? Pre-MLC the car drives worked because althou we were mad at each other for the conflict & both of us resented the car drives - him for being taken for the ride & me for feeling forced to make the drive - we did evetnually get to the point where the discussion was opened up & we began to work on resolving the problems that needed to be addressed by establishing what the true problem was & then how to deal with it in some sort of fashion - that's not happening at this point in time because he doesn't want to work things out & is in childish selfish mode - it's my way or no way
P.S. I don't want to hold anyone back, or rush them forward, so feel free to make you comments or ask questions on your own time frame. The "fitness center" here will be open for awhile!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Could use some help in this area right about now...
Any Advice would be helpful right about now
djembequeen
ps
Thanks "Poe" for helping me to deal with the 2nd escalation - it did help to try to calm me down, even thou I did keep taking the bait that he was setting up, you did help to get me distracted for short periods which I needed, do wish that the mic was on so you could've heard what was being said
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #2 -
"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, your likes and dislikes, and interests".
false is my answer - I think hubby would answer the same
Thoughts on this illusion?
differences can many times compliment each other, where one person is very alert to small details another may be able to see the big picture but not know how to get there
we can learn from each other & help each other
What are some of the differences between the two of you that you thought were "cute" when you first got together, but you now think are rather "annoying"?! I use to think that it was ok for hubby to be shy & rather naive to the mean world but now his naivety as to the fact that there are people who will pretend to be your friend just to get what they want out of you (users & losers) is not only turning into something very annoying but is creating a huge problem in our marriage as he's turning off his shyness with the excessive drinking & his "new friends" are encouraging it so that he'll spend way too much on beer & drinks & junk food for thier beer parties while the bills go unpaid
What do you think that their answer to this question might be? I think that Byron use to like the fact that I would speak my mind & that I was independant & that I knew alot more about life than he did, now he resents that I do know more about alot of things & we've had a few discussions about the fact that I try not to do the I told you so but just before he left we were arguing because I knew what was happening & I wanted it stopped before we lost everything due to the partying...
prediction? at this point thats just whats happening now credit is screwed after working so hard to get it cleared
hubby has tried to kill my independence by forcing me to quit every job that I held that was a regular job so I started working only thru the temp services - he wasn't able to just tell me that he wanted me to stay home with the kids, but after his actting up one time I asked him about it & he didn't give me a straight answer but from his reaction & what the kids told me one time about he wanted to make sure that they had a better childhood than he did I figured out that he resented his mom working so much & leaving him to fend for himself with 3 step brothers against him & his brother & it wasn't the nicest thing growing up for him
In what ways are you different from your partner?
I'm first born in my family & older than my husband & have lived a crazy life before meeting my husband, the things which he's now getting into I did back when I was in my 20's & thats why I saw quickly the type of people that he started dealing with were a bad influence & user losers -
I'm willing to try new things & learn by research & asking questions when I want to get information on a subject -
I'm observant & a bit detailed orientated -
I'm out going & enjoy going out
I'm aslo able to wait for something that I feel is worth while until a time when we can better afford it
I like to talk about things & how they can be changed for the better
I look for options & compromises when ever possible
What things might you be able to add to their lives?
If hubby would allow me to handle the budget we'd actucally have more than what we have gotten over the past 12 years of marriage, I decided during the 2nd yr of our marriage that since the budget was always a problem that I'd not look at the bills & simply give him the bills to be paid the way he wanted to pay them, sometimes it worked & sometimes we had shutoffs or evictions but at least we weren't arguing every payday about the fact that bills needed to be paid, we've lost more in our 12 yrs of marriage than we've gained
If hubby would allow me to get back into the real estate business without argueing with me about what I need for the computer or the time that I spend on the internet to build my webpages then we'd have more money to be better able to afford the things in life that we want
If hubby would follow some of my advice instead of listening to his mother about what we should be doing for living arrangements then we'd have our own place long ago & an investment property instead of so many bills & collectors calling
If hubby would take the time to enjoy the fun of the game instead of focusing so much on what I'm doing wrong when I was learning how to play golf, pool, darts, bowling, etc going out to the dive bars might be more attractive to me
In what ways is your partner different from you?
hubby is the baby of the family & his mother is still treating him like a little boy with her "poor hubby" routine all these years
hubby runs away from his problems rather than facing them & looking for ways to solve them - he's running away to his mom's & he's running away thru the drinking
hubby keeps his feelings locked up inside & doesn't actually deal with them
hubby is quiet & shy pre-MLC days - now he's still quiet when he's sober but he's turning to drinking & has turned into Mr Social Butterfly until his wallett is empty
What things might they be able to add to YOUR life?
hubby use to add some quiet fun into my life & introduced me to golf & bowling
hubby use to be my friend & confidant
hubby use to enjoy being silly
What are your strengths and your weaknesses?
+I manage money well
+I know alot about healthcare & what I don't know I'll research
-I have a tendancy to get emotionally explosive when I've come to the end of my rope
-+I can be impulsive sometimes this is bad & sometimes good
+I'm a planner & see the bigger picture as well as the knowing to plan the details to make a project happen
-I will sometimes be doing too many things at once & things will fall thru the cracks which I meant to take care of
-+I have a tendancy to focus on an important project & will basically become 1 minded until the project is completed (hubby has mistaken this for neglect in the past & still doesn't understand that if I don't focus like that then I run the risk of not completing the project or it's completed below expectations - if he were to express to me when he's feeling neglected instead of hoding it in then I could take the time to reassure him that all is well & just give me the time to get the project copleted so that I can get back to regular life)
-I have the need to discuss things which are a problem until some sort of resolution compromise can be made
What are their strengths and weaknesses?
+hubby is easy going about things, this sometimes can be bad as he'll neglect things until the last minute & it has cost us both in lost opportunities & money
+hubby knows alot about computers
+hubby basically sees only good in people
-hubby has no sense of budgeting
-hubby has a childish & selfish attitude at this point in time
-hubby has a tendancy to let things just boil inside rather than discuss somethng thats bothering him & then at some point out of the blue blurts out something which should be discussed but refuses to discuss it
How might the two of you be able to combine your strengths, and come together to make a great relationship, to be a great "team"?
My knowledge of health could in fact help him to be healthier
His knowledge of building computers could help with the business ideas & plans that I have & if instead of argueing with me saying that I don't need something & take the time to understand why I need or want something on the computer he'd see that I'm trying to save us money in the short run & will produce an income in the long run
My knowledge of budgeting, real estate & business could provide us with an income to enable us to live a better life where we could afford to do some of the many things which we use to talk about doing & going
If we discuss things more openly & fully before doing things & updating on a regular basis then we'd be on the same page & could get more things accomplished, we'd also have less misunderstandings as the noncommunicating hs affected everything from our finances to our sex life
What actions could you take if you were to look back at what you were doing in the past, and learn how to appreciate those differences again?
Right now when I look back in the past
I have now started to be verbally appreciatve of things which hubby is / has done for me like bragging so that he hears it ex:he bought me a fake fur vest so I made sure to tell his mom & the kids & my friend about it & have everyone including him touch it to see how nice it feels
I've tried to be reassuring that hubby is ok in the sex department & have been actively intiating more, even thou I'm still as unhappy as I've been in the past with the sex that we've been having, althou I didn't complain about it I never gave him praises for what he did do, now at least I'm giving him praises so that he feels reassured that despite his ED which I knew was due to the drinking, & diabetes & never commented on, at least he sees me as "excited" about having sex with him
I have learned here that althou I need to talk until resolution, he's not ready to talk about things so I've made more of an effort to shut up
I'm trying to have more patience with hubby as I now know that he's in MLC & he's got his childhood issuses to deal with & resolve
How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
I don't know right now what I could use are some suggestions & advice on how to better deal with this MLC that he's in right now -
I'm trying to figure out ideas & understand how to detach yet due to his abandonment issuses from childhood let him know that I've not abandoned him
& then what could help us be closer right now he only sees negatives & can't even remember how some on his job have commented on the fact that we were such a happy couple & they admired how we had successfully raised the children (most didn't know that my children were not his own) this being said only 2 months before he dropped the bomb & left home to go to mommy's
Again, feel free to take your time with comments and questions!
How would they know if you were thinking that your differences could help to draw you closer together, instead of driving you apart?
Right now I am unsure of how to make hubby see that our differences can & do compliment each other & that those which are counter productive can be discussed & worked out if the 2 of us work together to make this the great marriage that it should be
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #3 -
"In healthy relationships, major disagreements get resolved over time." False but I don't think that hubby would agree with me & considers it a point that things will never get better & that we must have a bad marriage because of it
How do you feel about this statement? reality is that everyone has fights & it's all in the manner in which you handle them thats make them either productive or non-productive
What things have you and your partner been arguing about that never seemed to get resolved? We should be discussing more the money matters even if he wants to handle the bill payments (I stopped looking at the bills our 2nd yr of marriage because we have 2 differant methods of paying bills & rather than argue I just let him do it & forgot the whole idea of budgeting because even after getting Quicken he wouldn't do it so it's truely a dead horse that can't be beaten
The arguement which was the MLC Bomb Dropping I'm moving to my Mommy's house - was about the friends he's keeping have him drinking way too much & he's the one wasting the money to get them high while our bills & home down payment money ($10k maybe more over the period of a yr) as well as our finally decent credit went down the toilet & I was sick of hm lying & trying to sneak off to be with the whore from his job who is part of the group of "new friends"
Have there been any ways in which your heated arguments have changed over time?
I've been less in the ranting & raving until this last cycle which is calmed but still brewing
Have they mellowed in any way?
I stopped throwing things at the wall the 1st yr of our marriage & have only resorted to throwing things in complete frustration 2 times in the past 10 yrs
Have any of your disagreements seemed to have maybe become less important than they were before?
Before MLC Bomb drop there were a lot of minor stuff that I let slide & I think that he did too, but since the Bomb drop it seems that hubby sometimes is doing things that he knows will start an arguement & everything is reason to be mad or fight
Have you been able to just "agree to disagree" about any subjects?
Well I tried to stop a recent fight that he wanted to continue by just saying that I'm not understanding why we're fighting & when he saw that I wasn't going to allow myself to go full flrdged into the fight yelling he decide he wanted to go to his moms house & said fine & when I wasabout to get out of the car he said for me to go home instead of just ignoring him I allowed him the space & time to be at his mom's
I'm letting some stuff slide which I really don't want to but since hubby's in MLC & doesn't want to hear anything that I've got to say I'm just ignoring the bait to fight & letting him act like a child while he's having his temper tantrum
If so, how were you able to get to this point?
I'm too tird emotionally & actually I'm getting quite disgusted with it all so why bother - I'm feeling this is a dangerous time for myself as I'm feeling discouraged & the temptation to just say F@#$ it all & start my own affair to simply forget but I know this would be wrong & I'd be the one who would suffer more
What works best for you in "choosing your battles"?
I used my grandma's Daer Abby qoute - Is it better With or WithOut? basically decided more on was the fight really worth the efort when I had time to think about it
Sometimes thou hubby hits me with things out of the blue & it's during the fight that i have to decide whether it's worth continuing, this latest cycle it's been really a matter of stop taking the bait as he's being arguementative because he's got to face up to some of his responsibilities or he's going to have to be without a car until sports car is fixed
In the meantime I'm just ignoring his attempts to start a fight, I might start to take the bait but quickly realise whats about to happen refuse to argue by simply stating my opinion & then doing the 1 line broken record until he drops it
How do you sort out what's important to resolve, from what's not-so-important to resolve?
at this point I'm just going by do I have what I need
this last cycle which we're stuck in I lost it & got started
he had a flat which if he had just done what he was suppose to do there wouldn't be a flat tire
& i had a broken window because I was stuck in a substandard apartment
which has been written up by 17 inspectors
& the "property manager" slumlord was mad about that & had my car window broken out as retallation -
basically I was too stressed out to think clearly,
so I was a bit over the top in not abiding by his wishes
& just letting him have robin pay for the flat
& then have him come to the house to get the sports car into the garage to get fixed,
but I also knew that he'd be giving me a hard time about giving up the wagon until the next night
if he decided to ignore robin's advice & complaining 'cause she just paid for the tire
something which I can't trust him to do at this point
she knows that once you get a few beers into him he's easy to mannipulate to her way of thinking
I've been making some dents in the cycle to de-escalate the situation
but each day theres new issuses that are popping up
& he made the decision to bring up the last 2 escalations,
the 1st I was caught quite by surprise
& tried to quit fighting but he kept baiting me
I had a hard time calming down because this was a major issue
& I wanted it dealt with since he was the one who brought up the subject
the 2nd escalation I realised what he was doing
so I was better able to handle it & let him basically get mad & just deal with it
I'm trying to finish the step 1 so that I'll be better focused to know even better which battles that I want to fight & which ones I want to leave alone...
This MLC is so difficult & very frustrating
, because he's unwilling to work on the marriage
& I do see where he doesn't want to let me totally go -
he just doesn't want to be responsible right now
& thats not acceptable either
Hi djembequeen!
Wow, you are seriously working the program here!! This is GREAT!!!
I gotta run to a class here shortly, but I'll try to catch up here with you in the next day or two.
Just wanted to let you now that you're not going unnoticed here, and that the work you're doing here is FANTASTIC!!!
Keep going!!
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #4 -
"In healthy marriages, spouses have the same definition of what it means to be loving
my answer would be false - but i'm thinking that hubby maybe thinking yes
From your point of view, why is this illusion wrong?
how a person is rased will help determine whether they are loving outwardly - huggy people come from huggy families - while if there aren't hugs given but praises verbally given then a person is likely to be more needing to hear praises than giving of gifts to show love
How would YOU define "loving"?
I feel loved in many ways, but I do think that I am 1st a feeling person & then hearing second - I'm still a bit confused reading the 5 love languages as to exactly what hubby's language is - my perspective of loving is being there for your spouse thru thick & thin, helping where ever & when ever possible, being willing to compromise, being willing to work things out, doing things together,
What would this mean to you?
I feel loved when hubby shows "ownership" of me introducing me proudly to his bosses & friends,
I feel loved when hubby gives me huggies, pats on the rump when he's on his way out the door
hubby gave us pet names when we got married, & althou some think it's terrible we've always liked them - he calls the kids "the boy" & "the girl" & me "woman" - using the tone of voice that Homer Simpson has as we use to watch it together & son did seem to be into some sort of mischeif all the time 
hubby use to bring home little gifts, icecream, little trinkets when he ordered stuff online & take us out to the video store to pick up a bunch of movies as a family
What things has your partner done in the past that made you really feel loved?
How do you think your partner would define "loving"?
In Dec 2002 he told me that he doesn't feel love for me - I asked him what does he think love is? & he gave the definiation that is the head over heels like when we 1st met & didn't want to be apart - apparently he's never had explained to him that the romantic passion type of thing is suppose to end from what he said he's looking for that kind of feeling again
These next 3 questions I'll have to come & answer later I've got to go bring daughtr to work & figure out what my mother in laws trying to figure out & why from the questions that she was asking me a few moments ago
What would it mean to them?
What things have you done in the past that you think made them feel really loved?
Things that have gotten positive responses from them?
Hi djembequeen!
Quote:
I'm uncertain but I'm trying to figure out whats going on in his head as well as mine by reading & chatting with other DBers
I think it's great that your reading and chatting with other DB'ers. It really can help to see what other's have done in their situations, and get the support you need! DO take caution, though, about spending TOO much time "trying to figure out what going on in his head"! Heck, he probably doesn't even know himself! Instead, keep doing what you're doing now, put together a plan of action, and begin to experiment with some things, and then monitor the results. Find your "more of what works, and less of what doesn't work". Doing so will help take you farther, and faster!
Quote:
I try to lead the family along the path which will benefit the family & hubby seems to undermine the plan
maybe the key is to let him actually lead
it's just that hubby's always been a follwer from what I can see
as he's failed to lead the family
which creates troubles that I've had to find a way to get us out of -
quite frankly I'm tired of that behaivor & would love for him to really LEAD the FAMILY
Keep this in mind as you're working through these steps. Remember that relationships are like see-saws; the more that one person does, the less the other has to do. Discovering just how to change the balance of this can be tricky. Sometimes you have to do it in gentle nudges, other times it seems you have to yank the carpet out from underneath them! Either way, this could be a good place to look for some 180's to try.
Again, I think you're doing great work here!!
Thanks for the vote of confidence JJ -
I'm feeling like I'm floundering a bit & by going thru these steps I'm hoping to be able to Re-focus
I think that I got a bit too excited at how the year was starting to turn around & then screwed up by getting us into this cycle -
I lost it & started the cycle but he for some reason is continueing it by escalating things just as I'm starting to level off & calm down from the last escaltion - thats why I was trying to figure out what was in his mind -
why would he intentionally escalate things when they were just starting to calm down?
I'm thankful for this board as it's a place that I can journal as well as ask for help -
I did start a yahoo group because I'd also like to be able to chat with ohters about DBing & prefer the Instant Feedback that can be gotten there or via the Instant Messenger
Yahoo Group Divorce Remedy it has a voice chat room & if anyone wants to add me to their Instant Messengers or join the yahoo group I'd love to chat.
Quote:
DO take caution, though, about spending TOO much time "trying to figure out what going on in his head"! Heck, he probably doesn't even know himself
I toally agree with that possibility as he's so contradictory that I don't know what to expect from him at this point - truely an Alien to me at this moment
Quote:
Instead, keep doing what you're doing now, put together a plan of action, and begin to experiment with some things, and then monitor the results. Find your "more of what works, and less of what doesn't work". Doing so will help take you farther, and faster!
That's what I'm here trying to figure out & why I started the yahoo group as well as posting that I'd like to have some feedback on the Instant Messengers - I'm not quite sure what I'm doing & could use some suggestions as to what I should be trying, & to help me with the "Plan of Action"
Quote:
Remember that relationships are like see-saws; the more that one person does, the less the other has to do. Discovering just how to change the balance of this can be tricky. Sometimes you have to do it in gentle nudges, other times it seems you have to yank the carpet out from underneath them! Either way, this could be a good place to look for some 180's to try.
Trying to figure out what I can do to set the see saw on a more even side - I'm unsure what to try as a 180, but focus is out of whack as there r so many things going on that have occurred due to his irresponsibility this past yr & 1/2 that now I'm in crisis mode trying to get out & be in at least a more stable sitch with the actual home front = looking for new place to stay & getting all packed up & getting son back out onto his own & getting my own life back like I was staring to get last summer
well got to go & get some more done on both the Db Step Questions & also Re-doing my 7 Habits work that I got distracted from earlier this month when this sitch started on it's crazy roller coaster twisting 7 speeding up
your DB buddy
djembequeen
Quote:
Trying to figure out what I can do to set the see saw on a more even side
Sometimes, it takes totally stepping off the see-saw a time or two, and letting gravity take effect by making them fall hard on their backsides! Be thinking about some even just small things you could do to totally drop the rope in a few areas, that wouldn't have devasting effects on you. Areas where you might be "over-achieving" in, that you could hand off to him. Even if YOU could do things "better"! 
Quote:
What were you both doing at the time? Pre-MLC the car drives worked because althou we were mad at each other for the conflict & both of us resented the car drives - him for being taken for the ride & me for feeling forced to make the drive - we did evetnually get to the point where the discussion was opened up & we began to work on resolving the problems that needed to be addressed by establishing what the true problem was & then how to deal with it in some sort of fashion
I'm curious as to whether part of this working might be because you changed the "where".
If you find yourself having the same arguments, at the same time, in the same place, and getting the same results, it could be that changing any one or more of those things could help you to get different results.
Give this some thought, and see if you can find some more times and/or places when your conflicts have gone better.
Take into account, also, when you know the absolute WORST times and places are, to give you some "more of what doesn't work" clues, so you can avoid them!
Quote:
Quote:
Trying to figure out what I can do to set the see saw on a more even side
Sometimes, it takes totally stepping off the see-saw a time or two, and letting gravity take effect by making them fall hard on their backsides! Be thinking about some even just small things you could do to totally drop the rope in a few areas, that wouldn't have devasting effects on you.
The cycle that we are in right now has partly to do with me basically doing that -
the sporty car which I've been driving is in need of some repairs
& got a broken window from the "property manager"
who's mad at the fact that I'm sort of winning in the eviction procees as I've had inspectors out to the house & they (17 of them) all wrote her up so now she's got to do things the more expensive legal way -
anyway I refuse to drive the sporty car whith the broken window & the other minor things wrong with it -
so it's parked in a private garage until hubby comes up with the money to get it repaired by a professional mechanic
& we have to share use of the wagon which he drives -
share use means
that he gets dropped off & picked up at work
& if he wants to go out drinking then bascially he'll have to take me with him
or he'll have to have his friends come & pick him up from his mothers house
as I will not be without a car simply because he wants to have fun
& run the risk that he'll get into an accident with the only working car that we have
the night that we put the sproty car into the garage such an accident happened but luckily he only got a flat tire
& he wasn't drinking yet but did have plans to go out drinking after his DWI class which is where he was headed when he had the accident
or that while he's out drinking with his friends
I need to get to my grandmother who lives a few towns away & has had congested heart failure
or my grandson who has been left at daycare by his father not picking him up
right now he's upset that althou he's escalated the fight twice I've not backed down on this car issue
& he's got to face being with out the car since he doesn't want me to be a part of the "fun" in his life
from what I can see MLC =
"u can't have fun with wife since she's the reason everythings bad in life"
when he escalated by saying that his friends don't like me
at the end of the 1st week
& I actually pressed the issue over the fact that none have a reason not to like me except that I stop the bar tab
& if there truely was nothing going on bewteen him & robin then
theres no reason that he can't bring me back to her house
just like we use to do all the time before he left...
anyway he's been on & off friendly to me since the initial arguement which was started on Jan 6 2004 at 5:45p
three times we've made love -
I think that the love making is part of the reconciliation process with him -
as after each of our escaltion fights
a few days later when things are calmer we'll make love -
sometimes he initiates sometimes I do but we do seem to get back to the point where we can at least make love
even if the sitch isn't resolved at least a truce is called
he chose to escalate a 2nd time when last week
tuesday after the eye doc appt
he was planning to drop me off
& then he was going to go to his DWI class
& out with his friends after class
except that I had made plans to visit a friend of mine who lives in the town by the class
he got really upset about that as I was screwing up his plans for the night
he'd not mentioned his plans to me -
he knew it would've been the fight that we ended up having anyway
I simply stated that while he was in class I was going to visit my friend & he blew up
I wouldn't budge on it & since he complained about the gas
I simply stated that I'd just go the Dunkin Donuts down the street
& we (she & I) could meet there if she can get away
that made him blow up even more as
I explained that going to meet at a donut shop
was no differant than meeting at a bar
only thing differant was that we'd be drinking coffee instead of beer
he was mad that class went full length
7:30p intead of just 7p as it had done before the holidays
so I got there & had to wait in the lobby for him
I did over hear the class video saying something about alcoholism
& when I looked into the class when I 1st got there
I could see him in the back looking angry & arms crossed
after the class was over he started again with the yelling
I tried to keep calm & just made the statement
that where did he plan to go? we could go now, of course he said no where
then started complaining that I had both cars
I saw it was pointless to continue to argue
& when he yelled to take him to his moms
I didn't argue about it at all
& when I was going to get out of the car
he yelled at me to go home he wanted some time away from me
I decided to give him the time & space he was asking for
he didn't want to be reasonable
& I really didn't want to deal with him
as I knew I'd be losing it in a short while
the rest of the week I've been picking him up & dropping him off
I don't think that he got mad about the sitch again until
saturday nite
I was late picking him up & son forgot to call to let him know that I was on my way
he wasn't too mad when I picked him up
he came into our apartment no problem to work on the puter problem I'd told him about
he said NO to making love, which would mean staying the nite in his head
& he said that he had a headache he looked tired so I let it go
I was very disappointed but managed to hold back the tears
but when I was going to drop him off at his moms house...
because I'd already spoken with a girlfriend of mine
that if he decided not to stay over that we'd go out for a quick drink,
I gave her a call in the car on the way to his moms...
I think at that point it hit him that I was going to be out having fun in the car
while he was going to be at his moms house with no car & no cellphone either
he said something smarta$$ when I asked him for a light
& I realised that he had my lighter, & commented on it
I simply ignored his comment & started singing along with Stevie Wonder's "part time lover"...
when we got to his moms I said see you tomorrow,
he took the dirty clothes & sheets out of the car & i pulled off
I didn't call him sunday or monday
Sunday his mom called...
asking about the 2 cars so I know that he must've complained
that I've got both cars - I set her staright about the fact the other one is still not fixed
she also started to make comments about the fact that I was bringing daughter to work on sunday
so I pointed out there's no bus to her job sundays
I actually got mad with her but bit my tongue
if she's not going to help with the sitch
then she needs to never mind whats going on over here
I'm helping my kids who are just starting to be adults & need help
just like she's "helping" her son to run away from his responsibilites
personally who's the better mother - me who tries to keep the kids out of the house & face life
or her who keeps trying to baby her "poor boy"?
but that's just me being angry right now
MIL asked about my settlement money & I knew that she was thinking I should be using that to fix the car
I told her the money is in trust
the only thing that can be used for is
retirement to care for me Or to buy a house
hubby blew his settlement money drinking with his new friends
he's not going to waste the money thats suppose to be caring for me
because he's being irrsponsible & blowing the money drinking
I've not heard from either hubby all weekend
&/or MIL hasn't called back since our chat sunday afternoon
her not calling back was abit of a surprise but actually great for me
she can be a bit stressful since she's unwilling to accept that hubby has problems
physically due to the sarcoid & the diagnosis of dibetes that he's refusing to treat either one wth the meds he's suppose to be taking
nor is she willing to address his drinking & is enabling him to do this
I'm trying to detach,
I'm trying to get a life to keep me busy
but it's a hard struggle for me when I've got no income of my own
I'm spending time here on the board & trying to
rebuild my life on the internet since the puter lost all info in it after the reformatting of the harddrive
I'm trying to stay away from the stores so that I don't spend money that I really don't have to spend
I'm also trying to work on the 7 Habbits work that I have to do
to figure out exactly what is it that is my Burning YES
but it's a bit hard to focus when I'm sick of where I am
both physically & emotionally in my life
I know that I've got to figure out an income for myself since hubby won't let me get back into real estate
I know that if I had my own income I'd not be so depressed
when he left to his moms when we were 1st married it was easier for me to handle
I was working too much to be so depressed as I've gotten this time
I was able to move on my own with out any input from him
I had my own income & didn't need him to sign the lease
I got the apartment on my own merits & income
I had what I needed to spend on what I wanted
this time is so opposite from that & it frustrates me
I told him that I think that his not giving me the money I need for the real estate license makes me feel
this is partly about him controling me & that as much as he maybe complaining to robin that i'm draining him
he's doing his best to make sure that
I've got no way to earn an income of my own
& no way that I'd be able to get away from him
& so that I'll be unattractive to any other man -
I mean really who wants a woman that can't work a job?
even if she does look good & can & likes to cook?
I'm good looking but I'm no model or trophy wife realistically speaking
Areas where you might be "over-achieving" in, that you could hand off to him.
Unfortunately with him at his moms house the only chores that I can hand off to him are the bills
& that is more of the same - he's been doing that since yr 2
when i decided that I didn't want to argue with him about the bills anymore
even thou I could do it better than him
Right now the washing of the clothes is a non-priority item
but it is a chore that I've passed on to him
if he's unwilling to get the washer repaired
or buy one that I can use (side opening) he's got to do it
Even if YOU could do things "better"!
thanks for taking the time to read my postings here
sorry if they're a bit long,
I'm just so full of confusion that I'm trying to pour out everything to make sure that I've got it all out here
hopefully then I'll have it all out of my system
so that when I see hubby I'll be able to be calm
son did point out to me that althou sometimes
even when I don't mean to at this point in time
it's visible that I'm feeling disgusted with hubby & his behavior so I've got to clear the air before dealing with him
son sometimes is wise beyond his years
& other times he's driving me nuts - typical teen I guess
your DB friend
djembequeen
Quote:
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #4 -
"In healthy marriages, spouses have the same definition of what it means to be loving
my answer would be false - but i'm thinking that hubby maybe thinking yes
From your point of view, why is this illusion wrong?
how a person is rased will help determine whether they are loving outwardly - huggy people come from huggy families - while if there aren't hugs given but praises verbally given then a person is likely to be more needing to hear praises than giving of gifts to show love
How would YOU define "loving"?
I feel loved in many ways, but I do think that I am 1st a feeling person & then hearing second - I'm still a bit confused reading the 5 love languages as to exactly what hubby's language is - my perspective of loving is being there for your spouse thru thick & thin, helping where ever & when ever possible, being willing to compromise, being willing to work things out, doing things together,
What would this mean to you?
I feel loved when hubby shows "ownership" of me introducing me proudly to his bosses & friends,
I feel loved when hubby gives me huggies, pats on the rump when he's on his way out the door
hubby gave us pet names when we got married, & althou some think it's terrible we've always liked them - he calls the kids "the boy" & "the girl" & me "woman" - using the tone of voice that Homer Simpson has as we use to watch it together & son did seem to be into some sort of mischeif all the time
hubby use to bring home little gifts, icecream, little trinkets when he ordered stuff online & take us out to the video store to pick up a bunch of movies as a family
What things has your partner done in the past that made you really feel loved?
althou it caused arguements he bought me as surprises:
1) a pda but it was the wrong type of OS & he had to return it which made me feel bad - i'd sent him a picture of what i needed & was the cheaper version which i knew we could better afford so it did frustrate me a bit,
2) he came home announcing that he'd bought a dryer that was going to be delivered the next day - the apartment we live in can't handle the load of an electric dryer, doesn't have an outlet for an electric dryer, & for him to think about upgrading the eletrical in this apartment to put in the dryer was totally a waste of money
again he set me up for me to reject his loving gift, but it was something which shouldn't have been an arguement, he should've said oh i didn't realise that it would be so much to put in the dryer & just brought it back, instead it was a 2 day arguement
the next week or two later he did much better
& I'm proud to say that with the money from the dryer he bought a portable dish washer which I've bragged about from the time that he brought it home & still today am bragging that he brought it for me (this was only 2 months before he walked out to go to his moms - doesn't sound like he was planning to leave if he just brought in the appliance)
he surprised me with tickets to go see Tim McGraw in concert
& they were VIP tickets so we had good seats
plus we got food & drinks in the VIP Lounge
althou country music isn't my 1st choice i enjoyed myself
& at the last portion of the show we were the only ones in the VIP Lounge & we danced & he sang to me
"Don't take the Girl" & said that's how he felt about me
I felt as if the whole concert was being put on Special just for me by Hubby
How do you think your partner would define "loving"?
In Dec 2002 he told me that he doesn't feel love for me -
I asked him what does he think love is?
& he gave the definiation that is the head over heels like when we 1st met & didn't want to be apart -
apparently he's never had explained to him that the romantic passion type of thing is suppose to end from what he said he's looking for that kind of feeling again -
the fact that he had it for so long is a puzzle to me as that type of love had in fact passed long ago & early in our marriage for me
These next 3 questions I'll have to come & answer later I've got to go bring daughtr to work & figure out what my mother in laws trying to figure out & why from the questions that she was asking me a few moments ago
Part 2 answered 1/24-5/04
What would it mean to them?
I tried to read the 5 love languages
& it's got me really confused as to pinning down what hubby's love languages are...
I know that sex is kinda high on his list at this point in life...
but that was something recent with his MLC
before that I was the one with the higher sex drive
& I suspect that for all of his "complaining" that I still am the HSD
althou he doesn't say anything, i do think he does appreciate the meals that i send for his lunch
I do remember 1 time that i was angry with him & didn't send 1 & he seemed hurt by that
i've been running thru my head whether to simply ask him, but after him saying thursday that he's not coming home when i move
& him seeming to relax when i pointed out that i've not been pressuring him to come home since dec 2002,
i think that i'll just have to keep on guessing
if i ask him at this point he may feel that it's pressure to work on the marriage
he's not ready to "officially" work it out yet
What things have you done in the past that you think made them feel really loved?
small gifts & surprises?
our 5th annaversary i had a really nice evening set up
& when he went out to the car he was surprised to see a picnic basket filled with presents & little handmade cards
u know he's still got the birthday card that i gave him last year in the car door - it's on the passenger side, but he has cleaned out the car & hasn't tossed it so it must mean something to him
i think he feels good & loved when he hears me brag about something that he's gotten for me or done for me - i really made over the fake fur vest that he brought for me 2 weeks ago & he seemed pleased but I can't tell for certain as it didn't last long, MLC jeckle & hyde change up i think 2 days later
Things that have gotten positive responses from them?
things keep changing daily so it's hard to keep track of
I've got to get back to my solutions journalling
with his being here I've not done much in it
been keeping track of stuff here when i've been able to
before the reduction in cars
i sent him a few silly sexy emails - those did spark interest & was fun for both of us
before that i was getting some responses for requsets for things to be done via picture emails
i do think that he does appreciate my sense of humor
i know that thursday he calmed down when i reassured him that i wasn't pressuring him to come home
it really hurt & it was hard fighting back tears but
i do know that it made him open to what i was saying
& even thou it wasn't what i wanted to hear from him
he did at least make a babystep forward by verbally commiting to get the mortgage so we can buy a 3 family house before april
give me the safe 3 family house to move to
we can stay in this holding pattern for a while longer
& there's time later to work on the marriage
someone kick me i'm behind schedule getting
step 1 all finished by the end of 2 weeks
thanks for any input suggestions or 2x4's that i need to refocus & get this DB thing straight
djembequeen
Quote:
The Realtionship IQ Quiz: #5 -
"People Just Fall Out of Love".
I say False Hubby would say TRUE
How do you feel about love being a choice, a decision, and not a feeling?
Love is a choice is True is my opinion on this -
it is a decision to work things out or to walk away,
it is a decission to do what is right,
it is a decission to care for your sick spouse,
it is a decission to cheat on your spouse,
it is a decission whether to spend the money correctly
& be happy about it
or to waste the money because you want to show off for friends or family "keeping up with the Jones' Syndrome"
all decissions are a choice
it is a choice to listen & learn or to blindly run away
In what ways have you, and your partner, might have let your love dwindle, and not made your love for each other a priority?
I actually in 20/20 hindsight see where there's been alot of
miscommunication going on between my husband & myself
1)while I'm in a class I try to make sure that the money paid for the class is put to the best use
& make sure that I only have to take the class 1 time
so I really focus on the lessons & to give him free time with the tv I'd go into the livingroom & sometimes fall asleep on the futon
& he took that to mean neglecting & not wanting him rather than the fact that I was trying to let him have peace & quiet & lights out while I studied
2)he took my distaste for Porno to mean that I wouldn't be willing to try new things,
I take his porno watching on the internet as cheating on me,
I've been angry for years over the lack of creativity from him & I'd resigned myself to a boring marriage in the sex dept
somewhere along the way we really got those signals mixed up
& at this point he's aware that he really doesn't know his wife as a truely sexual being
& I'm still aggravated as we'd touched on something that needs to be further looked into
& he's shut up like a clam, so I'm still stuck lacking in the sex dept 
3) He's made drinking & hangging with his "new trashy friends" a priority
4)my focus is getting out of the slum that we've been stuck in since 1997
5)We've had several arguements when I was in real estate over the needs which I had for the computer
he wouldn't listen to me but would listen to his friend who althou a nice guy who can build a good home use computer hasn't the slightest idea of what I needed for the biz needs computer
How do you feel about Michele's statement of
"If your spouse reports falling out of love, just say nothing and remind yourself that nothing is permanent. If s/he fell out of love, s/he can fall into love again"?
Althou NON-DBing people don't understand this -
This is my mantra & I do beleive that statement is true
Simply the fact that 1.5 into the MLC/runaway to mommy's house
that hubby & I are still having sex on a regular
(althou not not what I want as far as frequency)
& he's still trying to deny the OWhore
he's only just this past week come out of his mouth
"with the I'm not coming home" -
it's been along time since he's said that
I think the reason for the statement is
he may be feeling pressure from his parents
or even in his own mind is conflicted
as he does know that I've not pressured him to come home since dec 2002
What do you think about NOT talking to him/her about your "feelings" of love for each other?
Althou it does go against my nature
I do understand the logic as to the statement
& I'm doing pretty good about keeping quiet here
About not putting any pressure on them to talk about it?
It's hard but I've been doing just that
I do wish that I could get him to read here
or at least watch the marriage breakthrough videos
It gets to be so discouraging that the skills needed to learn
are right there & I'm unable to get him to use the tools
I see the couple on the video & it's me & him
it hurts that he's not willing to work on the marriage
butwith him in MLC all I can do is wait it out
What do you think are some of the differences between "being in love" with a person, and "loving" a person?
I guess this is like the statement
"love the person not the act"
I love my kids but they've got to move on with their lives
regardless of how much they act up & piss me off
they know that in the event they need help they can call me
regardless of what hubby's done
he knows that I'm going to be there to go to the docs with him
he knows that if he needs care after surgery he knows that I'm going to be there to give it
loving a person means that you can & do look past the hurts
you do what needs to be done to support them
you care about the other persons needs
& sometimes that means putting your own needs 2nd
while "being in love" with a person means that you don't even see the hurtful things
you have on blinders & see no problems
because you're so "in love" that all you see is perfection
The question is how do you let go
when it appears that hubby is doing his best
to make sure that I'm dependant upon him?
I'm trying to figure this out...
If he really didn't have it in his head at all to come home
why would he withhold what I need to get out on my own
If he really didn't want me around
why didn't he call last week monday night to say
"tuesday I've got off so you don't need to come in the morning"
there's also the possibility that this tuesday is the same
yet so far no phone call has come forth saying not to come?
My son says that I should call & ask him
my "grayness" I'm not calling
it's on him to tell me of schedule changes
if he doesn't call I'm not wasting the gas leaving & returning
I'm confused but that's the case with the MLC
I guess it's another twist & turn week
any suggestions?
what should be the next step?
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How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
I feel that I am usually very sure about things that are going to happen. Much of it is a gut reaction. That when I don't listen to it I end up getting burned. But right now I am not sure of anything at all
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How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I rely on the past a lot. The concept of he who forgets the past is destined to repeat it. But I think it's about putting the past behind me and dealing with the present and the possible future.
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How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view?
If it was someone from here I would probably see it as hopeful. And that there was things that could turn the situation around and bring my STBX and I closer together.
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What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
Well depending on who I was, I might see it as hopeless and that I just have to move on and forget about her. But then again, if I think there is hope who am I to give up!?!
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If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
Back off of her, which I do. And give her time. Remove the reason for her to be angry and the anger will go away. Though she seems more angry at herself and taking it out on me. But might be MY perspective.
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If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
WOW! Things would look so promising. I can see where our negative pasts get in the way. Things are always the same they can never change type mentality. But I KNOW that things can and often DO change.
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If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
Hmmm maybe my STBX is just scared, and angry with herself for allowing things to get this way but not knowing how to do anything differently. And that anger is being projected as payback to make her feel better. But more out of confusion than anything else.
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What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
I'm not really sure on this one. I do always try and look at things from multiple perspectives. Which is why I am driving myself crazy with THIS situation right now. Trying to analyze the intel. Gotta stop doing that and take things more for what they are.
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What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
It represents to me that no matter what is all around us that is clean and good we only notice the one thing that doesnt belong or is out of place. The bad things.
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What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
We would have a loving affectionate relationship. In the way we communicate with one another. The time we spend with one another. More tenderness in our speech, physical contact, and our actions.
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If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
There would be mutual respect. More loving jestures. Lots of talking. Major desire to spend time with and see that person a lot more. More caring about their feelings and not wanting to hurt them. I would not be bringing up the past with statements like ALWAYS, NEVER... and find a way to let it go. Act as if nothing ever happened between us before. It's all new. I sure wish I had this info 3 years ago when I REALLY started feeling that things were going off track.
My P seems to really need time to figure out who she is in life...to be dependent on herself for once. It's hard for me but isn't it healthy to let her have time to figure those things out for herself? Perhaps, we commited to each before she was truly ready and she just needs to grow up some...can things still be worked on even though she doesn't want to think about me at all right now???
I am using a new username as I was a member years ago. I don't want to get into my story, it had a happy nding though! I only want to say thanks for the great resourse and support I got on this board!!! I was so busy feeling sorry for myself that I had to do so much work to get H to come back. But am glad I did!
This is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to write but I’ve got to share my story in hopes that someone may be able to tell me something that maybe I haven’t realized/considered/thought of. This is long, I’m sorry, but I believe that the more that I tell, the more able someone might be to understand.
Here goes…
I was 19 years old and had an anxiety disorder. Doctor prescribed low doses of clonopin, I took it, and everything was going well.
Met my future husband at 21 and married him at 24. Everything was going well.
After about a year, problem was (no sugar coating) I was the most immature wife a guy could’ve probably had. I would pick fights, say things like I was too young to be married, I’d go out like I was still single, not clean, not cook, nothing.
He gave and gave.
I took and took.
In the midst of all of this I was taking clonopin that a doctor had prescribed me for an anxiety disorder. By our 2ndrd year of marriage, I had built up a tolerance, by out 3rd year, it was out of control.
My husband became my caretaker. In every way, he took care of me-physically, mentally, emotionally.
After about a year of this caretaking and as it got worse (I would almost never leave the house) I got to the point where I knew I had to seek help.
I did and I successfully overcame my addiction.
When I got back, from a month in rehab, we thought everything would be fine.
The thing was, I felt more lost than I was before I went in.
I was supposed to be this responsible independent person who had it all together and needed no help from anyone.
Trying to figure everything, especially myself, out, I found it very awkward to be close to him. It felt uncomfortable to just kiss hello.
I told him I loved him but was not in love with him. I had talked about the possibility of divorce and how that was realistic but I wanted to go to marriage counseling.
Even through those thoughts I still wanted our marriage to work.
So we became roommates, not husband and wife.
We were co-existing.
After months and months of getting my feelings sorted out it became easier to be around him. I found myself suddenly wanting to kiss him and be close to him. I was feeling so great about our future, our relationship, everything. Once I got my head straightened out, I knew I could be the wife that I wanted to be, the wife he needed, and the wife that I should have been to him years ago.
Then a while later, in marriage counseling, he revealed that he did not have those feelings for me.
And here we are.
He believes he began to lose those feelings for me a long time ago, but he was so focused on caretaking for me that he neglected his own feelings, thoughts, needs.
We’ve been in marriage counseling for over a year now and there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever.
He simply does not have those feelings for me.
He has said, and I truly know, that he loves me so very much, would do anything for me in the world, but it’s “just not there anymore”.
We both agree that we have a better relationship now than we ever have but there’s just one very important thing missing: there is nothing romantic between us because for him it is just not there.
I am beyond devastation. I have so much regret and sadness. I don’t know what to do. What we should do. Our marriage counselor believes that we have the makings for a wonderful marriage.
Okay, that’s great, but she’s not helping. She’s suggested different things over time: go on dates, snuggle with each other, lay in bed and tell each other why you’re glad you’re married.
I am all for all of this but he does not want to do it.
He feels pressured and doesn’t want to do things that he does not feel.
It is obvious that he has distanced himself from me and I know that he has thought about separation and divorce.
I am at the end of my rope, I don’t know where to go from here.
In my heart of hearts I know we could have a wonderful life together, but it’s not enough for just one of us to believe. And I don’t know what to do-we are both so frustrated with nothing changing, time just keeps going by, week after week, month after month, nothing is changing for him. Nothing.
I know that the only way that things change is when you change them, but what should I do? Should I begin emotionally distancing myself too so my world doesn’t shatter if/when he asks for a separation?
Should I wait and be patient for him to come around-if he ever does? Should I look for another counselor, one who has a different way of counseling and doesn’t just keep saying “This is a very complex situation” ?
I’m so frustrated and sad and feel so very alone. I didn’t know a person could feel so alone.
Please, PLEASE, will someone give me advice, or just an honest “you guys aren’t going to work” or just anything at all.
Whoever you are who has read this, I know I’m far from the only one who is having marriage problems, which is why I appreciate you taking the time so much more.
WOW! I loved this post! It really got me thinking what I would tell a friend living my situation.
I would tell her: leave him alone, let him REALLY think and, in order for him to do that, you REALLY have to distance yourself, physically and mentally: not being so available and be more misterious. It makes perfect sense!
SMIlls, you need to read the parts of DR and DB that talk about "changing anything." If you look back at your relationship, for example, you said that your husband took care of you, that he cleaned and cooked. Why not surprise him and start taking care of him instead? A great 180 would be not to demonstrate desperation. Why not cook more often, keep the house nice, ask him how his day was, ask him to go out to do things he likes to do (if he says no and keeps acting cold, don't lose your cool)?
It seems to me that this guy loved you very much and for a long time loved you more than you loved him. It seems like he is just plain tired.