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Re: The Mystery of the Disappearing Postings [Re: Ginger1]
Ginger1
Member

Registered: 02/14/15
Posts: 2205
I believe it is a phone or apple issue. It only happens when I post from my iPhone. My PC is fine, which is not an apple. Thankfully, that first post was a test too.....

I have so much to say and to respond to but I really need to talk about OLD and my recent experiences and revelations and social experiemnts. It all makes my life incredibly surreal.

I ended it witht he guy who avoided meeting. I said "you keep ignoring me when I bring up meeting. I am done with these games" never heard from him again, surprise. I have been talking to another one of those. I thought I broke it off with him a bunch of times. But he kept coming back. I told him numerous times that I am not interested in text dating and I need him to ask me when I am free and coordinate something. He avoided it as well. He texts me today at 2pm asking me out for pretty much right then. I went off on him. He kept persisting. He is crazy attracted to me, blah, blah blah. I decided to turn this around on him. After reaming him telling him I am no one's last minute plans, that if he was really all that interested, he cane meet me at a bar by my house, no hug, no kiss, no nothing. Justa drink. After some back and forth he said "no, I am scared. You really reacted to something that was nothing" I told him he needs to learn when something might be nothing to him, it is something to someone else. That was it.

Then for the the really crazy one. Some guy was persistent online, so I gave him a chance. We texted for a few days, seemed kind of normal, and agreed we should meet right away. We went for coffee at a DD yesterday. We did what everyone said you should do. Meet casually, keep it short but sweet. Conversation was good. I did find he is wealthy.

Well. he let me know he is incredibly attracted to me after. He desires a monogamous sexual relationship, but no commitment, because his OW is his work. He is a very sexual being, to put it lightly and is looking for that type of relationship, and would really like to have it with me. It feels like I am in 50 shades of gray. Good looking, although short, rich, and I was kind of propositioned.

Surreal, right? The more surreal part? I didn't completely write off the idea. I never ever imagined my life going this way. I figured my life being married and faithful. Never ever having to entertain such options. But really. 10 years and a bunch of flakes and impossible situations. I married my first sexually. ANd our sex life was awful. I discovered who I was sexually after divorce. And I can't do anything with it! I am very open with it, enjoy it, I am at my peak, and nothing is going on. I can't even get an actual date with a guy from OLD, they just want to tell me how hot I am and never meet. There are no IRL possibilities and my life is not so conducive to dating.

So what if maybe this is a better than nothing situation for me? Am I selling myself short? Maybe. It isn't because I don't value myself or think I am worth the whole package. I am, and I know it. I believe I treated myself as a person who does. We cannot say in the last 10 years I have not put the effort in and haven't learned and grown. Perhaps this isn't the time for me. A real R comes when I am an empty nester. Maybe now some fun is what the universe wants for me. Maybe I am losing my mind, but I don't think I am. I think I am just realistic and accepting of what my life has to offer me at this point. Not because I am not worthy.

I am having a really hard time dealing with something I just don't know how to deal with or talk about. I grew up ugly, and that is not an exaggeration. I started to not be so ugly, around 18, when I met exH. He was really the first guy who viewed me as beautiful. I saw him as the trophy, but he saw me as the trophy. Anyways, I don't know how to say this and it makes me super uncomfortable, but at my age now, men find me very attractive. It's weird and uncomfortable to me. I spent my younger years relying on my personality and that was always my strong point. Now, guys don't see past my looks. I NEVER thought this would be an issue in anyway for me. I've got to say, it is really difficult. I may not brag on my looks, but I got comfortable to the point to brag on what a great PERSON I am. I hated me that way too. Now I love me as a person, faults and all. That was the hardest feat. This sounds, ridiculous, I know. But I really don't know what to do.

What else is messing me up big time is I have real feelings for someone I cannot have feelings for and nothing will ever ever happen, which is kind of the story of my life. It is not a crush on PT guy. I have real feelings. I have been getting to know him for the past 9 months, we spend my sessions talking about life and family, I watch him interact with my daughter, and I think he is one amazing man. More man than any of these idiots my age. Something makes him think of me and he will message it to me. He brings me in his grandmother's baked goods, makes slime for my daughter. He is driven and a family man, and an alla round good guy. I am usually an idiot when it comes to realizing if a guy likes me. I am pretty sure the feeling is mutual. Right now, we are already crossing the line by even being FB friends as I am an active patient. When I am DC'd we all talk about going out one night (my therapist too, female).

I don't know how I ended up here. I just know I have to play the cards I was dealt. Still figuring out the best tactic.

In good news, first weke of new job down. Had the best weekend. D10 and I volunteered to plant trees yesterday and it was amazing fun. I loved to see how into it she was and how hard she worked. Her dad misses out on that part of her. She's a girl girl too, but she wasn't afraid to get dirty. Her spirits were so high and she felt so accomplished and it gave her such a needed boost of self esteem. I went to a wine fest last night with a sort of friend. Today I decided to take care of my back yardish area since my landlord stopped. The weather has been fantastic finally. I have a former DB'er talking me though making my yard the best it can be since she is an expert with it. I found dog poop all over my property and got super pissed and will havet to confront the neighbors about their unattended dog. I decided to be passive aggressive and scoop the [censored] right over on to their patio. Tomorrow is another work day.

I am now going to take myself out for ice cream because I deserve it.

Lot to take in, huh?

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

He desires a monogamous sexual relationship, but no commitment, because his OW is his work.

Wow! Unbelievable! Monogamy implies commitment. Did he offer to put you on retainer?

I am glad to see that you are able to post.

G, you may have thought you were ugly when you were very young, but the ugly duckling turned out to be a beautiful swan. Don't sell yourself short. You are very attractive and have a great personality.

As for work, one week down and a new one begins today. I hope that this position is a good fit for you so that you can enjoy the work, have less stress and can enjoy life after work. How is your knee doing?

You and your d were busy this weekend planting trees. It was a good outing for the both of you. The weather was good and the fresh air did you both a world of good, i.e., getting out of the house and doing something different.

Enjoy your week!

Ginger, I agree with Doodler, that's crap. It's one thing to say I am "only" interested in a sexual relationship, but to add to that it would need to be monogamous, is BS. You want Love Ginger, don't give up the opportunity to find it to have a sexual only R.

If you are interested in the sexual R part, then let him know it could be fun, but you are not willing to stop seeing other people in the search for a committed R.

by the way, I completely get the willing to compromise and do things that were "previously" thought to be a no-go, but I don't think any sidestep should stop or prevent finding what is actually being sought.

Job, thank you. This weekend and the weather and being out doors has done wonders for me. I need to really get back into some hobbies and make new ones. This gardening gig could be a good one until I am fully active.

Lord, I don't even know where to begin. But It is cut off and nothing is happening with this guy. He wants a monogamous sexual relationship, but he goes to bed at 8:30 pm. He has zero flexibility and I should generally just do what works for him. Screw during the day on the weekends and then go home? No thank you. I know I became delusional for a second, but I am really how nutso these people really are.

I really do want love. But I just don't think it is happening anytime soon. I am so disgusted with what I am encountering in OLD, it is actually making me angry. So I quit. I would love to have a partner to do things with, have some fun, but just not happening. I am just going to keep living my life. But OLD has me questioning everything and hating men, and that is not good. I am not trusting anyone's intentions. They all represent themselves in various ways, but all end up being the same kind of BS.

I am really disgusted in dating right now. I live in the most densely populated area of this country and it is just an addition of idiots, not worthy men.

Defeated in the area of dating once again.

In other news, they named that Arse-kissing sneaky idiot Manager today at my other job. Boy is my friend upset. I am glad I wasn't there for this announcement. I am glad my career is moving in the right direction at least.

Ginger,

Take things nice and slow with the outdoor activities. I know you and your D had a great time planning trees and just being outdoors together.

Now about this guy. Do not put yourself in a position of doing all of the compromising. It takes two to make a relationship happen and if he's not willing to stay up beyond 8:30, then its his loss. You have jumped through hopes for the men that have come along and it's time now that they jump through hoops for you. You are worth every minute and don't forget this...YOU ARE THE PRIZE!!!

Sometimes when we do a large majority of the compromising, it sends the signal that they are the only ones that we are seeing at the moment and they don't respect us for what we do in the name of relationships. We have to respect ourselves and our time before many of them will respect us and yes, our time.

Don't feel defeated...pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep searching.

I'm sure your friend is quite upset about the so called "manager" being named today. You got out of there in a nick of time.

Ginger

I think you are trying too hard!

My method

1 go to a target rich environment
2. Chat to guys you like
3. Exchange numbers
4. Chat some more
5. Agree to go for coffee
6. Agree to do something together have fun
7. Hang out
8. Hook up

Have two or three o the go at the same time so you aren't invested

Have fun

Did I say have fun

I have a target of chatting to two guys a day on average. So some days none and other days 6 or 7

Not so hard really once you get used to it.

At the moment I have four numbers and one coffee due

Hung out with one guy but decided nice guy but way too serious too soon

Next time I am in your area we can be wingman

V

Oh and one thing I have noticed is you really have to show interest. Guys are quite dim on picking up on this.

So you have to be a bit over the top (I don't mean low cut, I mean smile and flirt.

That sort of over the top.

It's not called pulling without reason.

V

Girlfriend - I see why you thought about the (supposedly) wealthy guy for a second, but he's NOT what you want. That arrangement he proposed was all for his benefit.

That said, there's nothing wrong with deciding to enjoy some friendly sex with a guy whose company you enjoy and who you know is just casual IF you can remain unattached. I am finding that doable BUT I'm much older than you and have had a 24 year marriage under my belt that made me feel validated. I don't think you're emotionally ready for that.

Now as for PT guy - tell me again why you're so sure it's impossible? Just because he's younger? Unless you've decided you never want to have another child and are unwilling to adopt I don't know why you have to dismiss him out of hand. He sees your age on the chart, he's still interested. (Be aware though that patients have issues with transference, so he might appear more perfect in your eyes than he really is.)

If OLD isn't working for you then you need to put yourself in those "target-rich areas" as Vanilla so aptly puts it! And smile and initiate chitchat with men when you're standing in line at a store or other similar situations. It's good practice and helps you develop a more approachable vibe.

Oh - and the whole ugly duckling thing? Let go of the resentment and embrace the goddess in you. Enjoy the attention. I swear I got more male attention in my 50's than in my 20's, even though I was heavier and flawed compared to my skinny perfect 20 something self. The reason is that in my 50's I embraced who I was; in my 20's I was still insecure about my value. Embrace your beauty AND your brains, and find places where you can interact with men who are interested in more than hanging out in a bar.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Oh and one thing I have noticed is you really have to show interest. Guys are quite dim on picking up on this.

I agree with Lady V. I'm a guy and boy am I dim. Just ask my ex-wife

I am also a timid forest creature.

Even 2 years out I and I presume other mature guys are still somewhat shell-shocked and confused. You are orders of magnitude farther out. Even if this had happened 10 years ago it would still be tough. Just check what guys younger than me like CNut have been writing.

I'd be thrilled if one of the several ladies I know who may or may not be interested in me took me by the hand and told me that I was going out with them.

I know from our past correspondence that guys like me aren't "your type" but as V suggests, being more forward might be productive.

Oh - and that other guy is looking for a side-piece. May or may not be married or rich. You are better than that. Heck - something battery operated is better than that.

Just my 2 cents.

listen to V and Ellie darling and listen to Andrew for the guys POV ... you're worth more than the inflexible sex machine who passes out at 8:30 every night.

xoxoxo

I agree with V, Ellie and bttrfly. Please, please listen to them. You deserve so much better than someone who conks out at 8:30 every night.

Another nail in the coffin for Ginger ever being interested in me

!!

I'm off to bed by 8:30 most nights too. Mind you, I'm up at 4:45. Been doing this grind for 15 years now.

I did have a loving and active life (or so I thought) with my spouse and children. We did make a point of spending time with each other on weekends and what time we had during the week.

I do think that it was a good idea to write-off the guy as a partner. He sounded demanding and controlling and self-centred. He was appliance shopping.

So many great responses! You are very attractive and have so many wonderful qualities..your fun, friendly, popular, down to earth etc. It makes no sense why you are having problems.

But just some things that jumped out at me...

"I told him numerous times that I am not interested in text dating and I need him to ask me when I am free and coordinate something. He avoided it as well. He texts me today at 2pm asking me out for pretty much right then. I went off on him. He kept persisting. He is crazy attracted to me, blah, blah blah. I decided to turn this around on him. After reaming him telling him I am no one's last minute plans, that if he was really all that interested, he cane meet me at a bar by my house, no hug, no kiss, no nothing. Justa drink."

So you rewarded his bad behavior? You agreed to a drink, even though he was disrespectful regarding your time and very clear cut communication. I would have just stopped communicating to him. By just continuing the conversation or communication you are showing desperation. Especially, when you showed him that even though you were mad, you would still meet up with him.
Furthermore, I think showing him he had the power to frustrate you put you in a position of weakness and lowers your value.

Same thing with Christian Grey. I am quite confident that your profile does not indicate that you are looking for that type of an arrangement. Yet this guy is "persistent" in getting you to meet up with him only to offer you a subpar arrangement. You are worth so much more then that. The fact that he even thinks that is acceptable shows you what type of person he is. And what he thinks of the type of person you are. He is presenting wealthy. That does not mean he is. And it should not matter anyway. The proposition is very very very insulting.

Ginger people will treat you as you demand to be treated. They sense it in the little actions and responses. Truly know your worth and dont waste time or responses on anything less then you deserve.

You can try reading through the profiles and look for a guy that clearly states he is looking for a monogamous relationhip and has his sh!t together and then respond to him. Weed through the profiles and only bother with someone that really seems worthy. By worthy, I dont mean being in top shape, or having the best pics. I mean someone that sees to have good values.

WOW! I have been reading along between yesterday and today and I want to thank you ALL for your stellar advice and words of encouragement.

I just want to let you all know that I wasn't entertaining the though of being some guy's purely sexual toy on HIS terms. Nope. I did entertain the thought of having sex and fun outings with a guy. Not something I ever thought I would do, but I thought it might be beneficial to ME. When it wasn't, I called him out on his BS. It is pretty unreal that a guy thought a woman would want to screw him during the day and have him in bed by 8:30. Good luck to him finding that! I want NO part in it.

The other guy, I wasn't really rewarding him by agreeing to meet him. I have turned these experiences into a social experiment. I knew he thought I would say no, and when I said yes, it became real, and he made some sorry excuse. He really just wanted to text me forever. He is NOT at a point to have real contact with a woman, and he needs to deal with his own stuff.

My cousin and I were talking and she told me I should write a book with this stuff, which I have been told many times. Then she gave me the idea to write a blog. I am not much of a writer, but I think it would be entertaining and therapeutic. Just like I kind of blog on here as an outlet. Might be one of my new hobbies!

As far as target rich areas.... I was at a hardware store sunday and I was looking at rakes and some guy who was just shopping did ask if I needed help picking one out. We talked a bit, I tried to flirt for practice, but I think he was really just helping. I did have a guy try to ask me out one night at a bookstore, but he was really weird, and I lied and said I had a boyfriend. The gym has so much eye candy, but everyone is into their own thing with their earbuds in, I don't bother.

As far as 25 year old PT guy....... As you all know, I was devastated when FF broke up with me because he wanted kids way in the future. I can't fathom going through that again. I know his parents wouldn't approve for 2 reasons.... one would be I am only 6 years older than his mom, and 2, I am done having kids, even adopting. I realize I have done 10 years on my own, and I am done raising children after this one. I cannot start all over, even with adopting a baby. he wants wife, kids, ect., and he will make such an amazing father. I would not want to rob anyone of that.

A friend reminded me today that I am a strong woman who needs a strong man. That some men (especially in my demographic) might be intimidated by my strength and independence and I shouldn't compromise myself because of that.

I am just becoming weary. I trust no one's intentions. So I put up these walls right away and question everyone's motives and now I think come across as uptight, even though I so am not uptight.

Andrew! Being in bed at 8:30 isn't a bad thing! But I bet if a lovely woman came your way, you might be a little flexible and hang until 10pm on a Saturday night. I don't even have a type. And if I were to have a type, it would be a strong man, driven MAN. Not these weenies who want everything his way and can't handle something real or life in general.

IN other news, I want to pass out, this day was really draining, but in a good way. Although I have a weird situation I have encountered at my job. I know one of my patient's daughter's very well. Her husband is married to my cousin's brother. I have to maintain privacy, but my cousin knows I am the case manager from her daughter directly who is the point of contact. I know their home situation is kind of messed up and I also know this woman is very debilitated. I am trying to manage this case without violating hIPPA and making sure things that I have the inside info on in the home gets managed.

Oh, and remember I said I thought exH was cheating? Well, through coincidence, I found out who that woman was. It is a coworker who was OWW's best friend. She is the woman who introduced them. The woman who set up a married man with a baby on the way with his friend. He probably isn't cheating with her, but I saw her on FB. And I had to look like a train wreck, and I got to see pictures from the night they were hooked up. When I was 28 weeks pregnant, we were living far and he was out for a night in Brooklyn and never came home and never answered his phone. The fear I felt on that night is vivid. Seeing those pictures made me livid. Then seeing pictures of them from the Christmas party he didn't want me to come to and I was staying home with our 3 month old baby..... Wow. I wanted to beat the crap out of this trashy woman so bad. I hope they are cheating together so they can all get a taste. I haven't felt anger towards the cheating like this so raw in a very long time.

And it should be said that I have weaned myself off my benzo's that I have been taking to sleep since BD. I am an insomniac as it is. But my exhaustion and melatonin helps. I also decided to try to wean myself off my Ad's, but my mind runs a very busy when I do, so I decided to keep them at the lower dose possible.

I am hoping when I get back to my intense exercise, I will be feeling better.

For now, no more online dating. I had a really good night in PT last night and I think I am going to be back to my therapeutic exercise. Maybe that will be all I need for a while.

Ah, up at 5 am for new systems training from 7-1 The good news is I will probably get out an hour early and I will be done for the day and I can clean my godforsaken messy as heck house that is giving me anxiety.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Andrew! Being in bed at 8:30 isn't a bad thing! But I bet if a lovely woman came your way, you might be a little flexible and hang until 10pm on a Saturday night.

That has been known to happen. I've even stayed up past midnight although those darned mice had a hard time pulling the pumpkin home.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I don't even have a type. And if I were to have a type, it would be a strong man, driven MAN. Not these weenies who want everything his way and can't handle something real or life in general.

Yeah - that eliminates me some more. There's a good reason you've never seen doodler and I in the same room. I'm his alter-ego. A marshmallow(y) kind of guy who tends to go along with the flow. I joked once to a friend that I'm the Samwise Gamgee of partners (and a geek!). Supportive and always able to find a handy piece of rope or a potato. Doodler on the other hand is well known for striking heroic poses and leading his legions of troops into battle

We look identical except for the fact that one of us wears glasses which completely fools everyone.

More seriously though. The single date I went on was back in October with a very nice lady who I've known for a long time. She's run her own business, raised two kids on her own, is intelligent, thoughtful and funny. She's been divorced for about 15 years or so now. She even laughed at my jokes. We had a grand time but I stopped it after one date. There was no "warmth" there. She actually complained about many of the things you have mentioned. How she either meets men who are babies who want to be taken care of or who want to control her. I don't fall into either category and while I still quite like her and always have, she's not someone I could imagine building a life together with. She pushed for us to keep seeing each other for dinner and events as "just friends" but I stepped back.

Just perhaps something to think about.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

She pushed for us to keep seeing each other for dinner and events as "just friends" but I stepped back.

I think you dodged a bullet.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Yeah - that eliminates me some more. There's a good reason you've never seen doodler and I in the same room. I'm his alter-ego. A marshmallow(y) kind of guy who tends to go along with the flow. I joked once to a friend that I'm the Samwise Gamgee of partners (and a geek!). Supportive and always able to find a handy piece of rope or a potato. Doodler on the other hand is well known for striking heroic poses and leading his legions of troops into battle

We look identical except for the fact that one of us wears glasses which completely fools everyone.

AndrewP,

If only! I can be a huge marshmallow, particularly when I'm wearing my little black dress. You should google Jocko Willink. He's an ex-Navy Seal; one look at his picture and you'll be ready to drop to your knees and beg for your life.

Let me clarify. What I view as a man isn't what you might think. Strong and confident, who isn't afraid of strong woman, who is driven and goes for what they desire in life, without running over people to get it. A man is someone who isn't passive, can make a decision, but can consider what others might want at the same time. A man to me is in touch with his emotions an doesn't afraid to show them. A man is someone who isn't afraid to do a little work for the good things in life.

Passive isn't for my quite honeslty. My ex was passive. he wanted everything his way, but expected me to make it happen. exNG was passive in that he couldn't take an active role in a relationship and was just along for the ride. He just wants a woman who is simply "there". FF was not passive and I appreciated that. He made decisions, plans, and was sweet, yet assertive.

Andrew, let me pick your brain. This woman sounds a lot like me and I understand where she is coming from. I wouldn't complain to my date about these things and call guys babies, but I feel as she does. When you are alone for so long and responsible for your own life and others for so long, you don't want to be taking care of another guy too! You want someone who adds to your life who compliments you. Walls are initially up when you are doing it all on your own, and you are responisbile for other little lives. I probably come off as hard when I fist get to know a guy. Then my walls come down. Anyone who knows ME knows I am quite mushy. So what is it that made her not a good match? I mean, I would agree, the two of you are at different stages in life and lived your lives very differently. That makes views and what you are used to very different and are fundamental difference.

And , I do admit, yes, a muscular guy with a beard getting dirty and fixing stuff is a huge turn on. Doodler in a dress, not so much

I'm a fan of beards too. Lol. And totally agree about the line between being passive and controlling.

Ginger - I assure you that both doodler and I are (I presume) capable of impressive beards given the occasion. I have photographic proof of mine that you would need to cajole mutual Facebook acquaintances to point you towards if you care to see

You'll have to just assume that we look alike other than our choices in evening-wear. My ex was "understanding" about my annual beard. She would complain that it was like kissing someone through a washcloth although she would lay with her head on my chest stroking and scritching my beard once it got to an scritchable length. Sigh. The guy she left me for seems to have this straggly sort of thing going on which I'm presume she's fine with.

It's difficult to describe exactly where it didn't connect with my date. Since you asked I'll try to parse it apart with a couple of different examples. I'd also suggest that you look back in your postings to me from I believe the fall of 2016 where I clearly remember you chastising me and pointing out how unattractive you found me and how you were sure I would never find love being the kind of guy I was (and still am). Sorry if that bit seems harsh. I'm a forgiving kind of guy but have a long memory. You didn't find me attractive then and were very blunt about it and - the feeling was mutual. However I can still be on friendly terms with people who I have disagreed with which is why I'm still here. I do think though that we certainly wouldn't be compatible in most social circumstances. Online is a different world.

My date was with the lady who owns the book shop - let's call her BL. I also know the lady from the flower show - FG and the teller from the bank BG. Of those last two I did ask FG out in early 2017 and she initially said yes but then backed off when (I believe) she couldn't figure out how to fit dating me with raising a toddler. There are another couple of ladies who I know who I am also interested in, but they fall into similar molds.

BL is very intellectual and really has her act together. In our earlier conversation when I suggested that if she wanted to get together that she should contact me, she showed some empathy for my situation. When we were together the first part of the date felt like an interview. We did chat about a number of topics including some research and papers she'd done which I was not aware of and was very interesting but I didn't feel any "empathy". Not that I was looking for someone to feel sorry for me but more that I wanted to feel that they cared.

FG who I see every week is a creative person who is dealing with a lot of personal stuff. One thing that attracts me to her and also was a key thing in the early days when I met my ex - was the fact that when we talk she pays attention and "remembers". She takes an interest in my challenges with housekeeping and laughs - with me - at my struggles. I've gotten to know her a bit (she's very reserved), her mother, co-workers, I've met her son (who is a nice kid and "very" busy). Neither of us tries to "fix" the other person or their situation although I have to watch my tendency to be a "white knight" and have never suggested that I could make her life better beyond joking that I could borrow her son for an afternoon and let her make use of the cast iron tub and bubble bath I have that is behind two lockable doors.

BG is different again. She is one of those people who thinks things through and even when she "knows" she has the right answer will admit to the possibility of being wrong. I have seen (and joked with her about) the surreptitious fist pumps she does when she is right and everyone else is wrong. We talk mostly about her boys (of whom she is both frustrated and incredibly proud), her love of coffee and the girly girl things she does. She is also very capable and is one of the best people I've ever met at dealing with problem customers. Just like FG she listens and remembers about what I talk about and can probably tell you the ages and interests of my children and list my cousins who are also customers of that bank along with my challenges with housekeeping which we joke about. Also like FG she is very much a self-rescuing Princess. (side note - Paperbag Princess by Robert Munsch is a favourite book) It was actually her co-workers who pointed out how fabulous of a cook she was even after well over a year of her hearing about how I struggled in the kitchen. She never offered to "fix things" nor gave me instructions. She was just sympathetic and understanding.

To be far too romantic for a moment - the concept of "eyes you can fall into" is a very real thing for guys - at least for me. We don't need to be fixed. We don't need to be catered to. We don't even need to feel that we are powerful or heroes. We just want to know that someone cares and that someone understands.

You'll notice perhaps that I've not mentioned anything about the age or appearance of any of these very nice people. They are all attractive to me, even superficially even though one is a older than me, one is rather heavy, and one is rather tall.

Now with all this said - I think we will still agree that I'm not your "type", nor are you mine. The world is full of a wide variety of wonderful people who intersect in different ways. What would work on me may well not be applicable to the sort of partner who you are best matched with.

Andrew,

I want to sincerely apologize, because what I said was obviously hurtful to you, and that was not my intention at ALL. I never said I didn't find you attractive. True, we may not be eachother's type, but when I post, I do not post from my POV. In terms of DB there are actions that LBS take or make, that WAS find unattractive. God knows I was one of the most unattractive messes! When I look back, the things I did after bomb drop were very unattractive. I can admit it. It got me further away from my goal (which I am actually thankful for).

Never, ever ever did I think you wouldn't find love being who you are. I am very sorry I made you feel that way. I have just been on these boards for so long and I have learned so much from being on these threads and the recent experieces with people IRL, that I have the ability to do what we should never do as DB'ers: mindread. I have a pretty good idea from what is described what the WAS is thinking. And I have seen so many scenarios play out. Though it may seem harsh, it could be awfully helpful. I always left you with the disclaimer of what a mess I was and how I learned from trial and error and that I have pretty much been in everyone's shoes at one point or another.

So, I am sorry I made you feel that way. Yeah, we may not be a match, but I never mean to put you down or disrespect you. All come here hurt and broken. I have spent so much time on these boards posting to others because people here saved my life, literally. So I never come with the intention to hurt, only to help as I have been.

About your experiences, I have learned to let guys be "the man". On my first date with FF we went to this speakeasy and it had all these old fashioned drinks. He asked me what I wanted and I told him he could choose a drink for me. He told me how much he liked that about me. I do not get jealous when another guy spends time with his friends or is around other women. but I pretend like I do sometimes, because it helps to make a man feel desired and not like I don't care. I am very much an empath and when I do let people in, I let them in too much. I have had a very intense connection on all levels and it was pretty amazing.

I do believe relationships work better when you are in similar stages of life. I have dated guys 12-15 years my senior, but we were in similar stages with similar experiences.

Andrew, I do see you being really happy with a woman, perhaps divorced, who was married and had a partner and grown kids and is empty nesting alone and is looking for someone to share their life with. There is a lid for every pot out there, so they say, and no one is unlovable, except maybe, my ex, haha!

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Doodler in a dress, not so much

Ginger,

If only you could see me rocking that little dress; my sultry muscular legs stepping to the beat of the music whilst I do the booty dance. You'd be a festering cesspool of desire...

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Doodler in a dress, not so much

Ginger,

If only you could see me rocking that little dress; my sultry muscular legs stepping to the beat of the music whilst I do the booty dance. You'd be a festering cesspool of desire...

Festering cesspool, yes! Go put on some well-fitting jeans and a tight t shirt, then we will talk, lol.

So, in my chronicles of funny as heck adventures..... I am talking to this guy all seems well, 48 years old.....

And married and divorced 3 times. Always something! It makes of think of Ross on Friends.

he is a massage therapist. I always said I wanted to date a chiropractor or a massage therapist. But one that has been divorced 3 times???????

Sigh.

I, too, value a strong man who can handle a strong woman. I have always been strong, independent, confident. My parents raised me that way. I have been told plenty of times in my life by men (XH used to say it all the time) that I am intimidating to men because I give off this total vibe that I don't NEED a man. Well, I don't NEED a man. Want a man, yes....need a man, no. Totally different things. I don't need someone to take care of me financially, I got this. I don't need someone to make decisions for me or "lead" me, I got this. I just want someone to be my partner, my equal.

I see many of the same frustrations that you do in OLD, with one major difference....you are attractive and I'm not, so I have the added issue of dealing with only attracting what I think of as a lower tier of men because good looking men who would respond to your profile are not going to respond to mine, in general....based on looks anyway. But, that is the thing: I firmly believe there is a lid for every pot. We just have to find our lids. And, honestly, your lid and my lid would be different. LOL

It is difficult to find men in my age range who haven't been divorced several times or men who have been married once for a long period and now find themselves "suddenly single" and they don't know how to deal with it.

I LOVED V's advice. As always, she's full of wisdom that we can all learn and grow from. I know it gets frustrating and disheartening to hear, but when the time is right, the right one will come along.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I always said I wanted to date a chiropractor or a massage therapist.
But one that has been divorced 3 times???????

Maybe you should just be friends?
Why has he not learned anything yet would be my question?

Originally Posted By: Cadet

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I always said I wanted to date a chiropractor or a massage therapist.
But one that has been divorced 3 times???????

Maybe you should just be friends?
Why has he not learned anything yet would be my question?

He did get in to the lessons he learned from each, the first 2 weren't mistakes, but the last was.

Being the wise- a$$ I am I said "so you hobbies include getting married?" Luckily he thought it was funny. Then he told me one of his clients is a DJ. I said "oh, you can hire him for your next wedding, you'll get a good discount!"

I am awful.

A massage therapist friend could be a very nice thing!

Quote:

so you hobbies include getting married?"

ROFL! Good one!

I agree - three divorces seems like too many. Two? Ok, maybe you had an early marriage that you were just too immature for, and maybe the second involved a WAS. But if you're gonna get married for a third time you better have your act together and be sure this one's gonna work, or why bother with the marriage certificate?

Now granted, somebody could be 80 and have three divorces and it might not be so bad. But at 48 I'd definitely be concerned.

My older brother had three divorces by that age. (And one broken engagement). Basically he came on like a knight in shining armpit while he was wooing them, then would become an irritable couch potato after they married, and eventually he'd decide they were the reason he was unhappy and leave (except for his second wife who had the guts to dump him shortly before he reached that point). I also know he cheated on his first wife, possibly also on his third at the end (at least he was acting like a classic WAS).

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'd definitely be worried that someone with three divorces was either like my brother, or had some serious flaw that wives kept giving up on him. NEXT!

The 3 marriages to concern me. However, the last divorce was 10 years ago, he admits the third was a true mistake and he has learned. He was in a 4 year R that didn't end in marriage.

Well, he is the first guy who actually wants to talk on the phone. And he made a date for us next Friday. A Mets game! He went all out. It should be fun. If anything, maybe I will get friend out of it. We definitely need to talk more to really get the true picture of his M's. There is going to be something with everyone. I am looking for character. So, far, so good , in that area. And I promise if he proposes, I won't says yes!

Oh, that one guy who was too scared to meet me thought he should text me Thrusday to tell me he was thinking about me last night as his porn, if you know what I mean. He though I might be flattered. I believe he seriously thought I would be flattered. I told him to grow up and that he was nuts, then blocked him.

The sad thing? He is not the first guy to tell me that.Plumber told me, a few guys I have dated told me that, and a few guys from OLD tell me that a lot. Gross, gross, gross. I guess I make a good fantasy, not a good reality, haha. Even with the guys I actually have dated. I am a good fantasy until sh!t becomes real.

This guy has been respectful so far. Maybe because he has 2 daughters 11&13.

I swear, dating has been the worst experience for me. Comical, actually.

Originally Posted By: Dawn70

I, too, value a strong man who can handle a strong woman. I have always been strong, independent, confident. My parents raised me that way. I have been told plenty of times in my life by men (XH used to say it all the time) that I am intimidating to men because I give off this total vibe that I don't NEED a man. Well, I don't NEED a man. Want a man, yes....need a man, no. Totally different things. I don't need someone to take care of me financially, I got this. I don't need someone to make decisions for me or "lead" me, I got this. I just want someone to be my partner, my equal.

I see many of the same frustrations that you do in OLD, with one major difference....you are attractive and I'm not, so I have the added issue of dealing with only attracting what I think of as a lower tier of men because good looking men who would respond to your profile are not going to respond to mine, in general....based on looks anyway. But, that is the thing: I firmly believe there is a lid for every pot. We just have to find our lids. And, honestly, your lid and my lid would be different. LOL

It is difficult to find men in my age range who haven't been divorced several times or men who have been married once for a long period and now find themselves "suddenly single" and they don't know how to deal with it.

I LOVED V's advice. As always, she's full of wisdom that we can all learn and grow from. I know it gets frustrating and disheartening to hear, but when the time is right, the right one will come along.

Attractive is all relative. I realize as men get older they all discover what they find attractive and it is different for everyone. Younger guys I think feel pressured to be attractive to the model type. Older men are a little more secure and experienced knowing that so many different things make a woman attractive. I believe you are an attractive woman.

I realize guys do need to be needed. So it's tough when you don't need them. Although, honestly, I am one of those girls who can't fix things myself, haha! I am not handy and I would love a handy man. I don't need him because I have money to buy one when needed, but I usually look for places where I need help and let them jump in there. Car advice? I need help! A man is great for that. So are many women, but I realize a guy loves to be asked that stuff. So I try.

I sure hope there is a lid for every pot, because I am going ot boil over!

For those of you who are following along, probably thinking I am nuts by now.......

I decided to do my google and facebook search on my massage guy. He was super easy to find because he is quite the massage therapist, written up in articles and all. he played it down. He was Barack and Michelle Obama's massage therapist through out the election (I had wondered how he gotten the picture with him on his profile) and he massaged a good portion of the NY Giants in 1994.

Then the craziest part. His FB newsfeed is public. All of his posts are pictures and videos of pugs and food and recipes. for those of you who follow my FB, well, pretty much the same thing.

Ok, that isn't the craziest part. he told me he hasn't dated anyone since his GF 2 years ago. He said he needed time alone and also decided to be celibate. So, no sex in 2 years.

I either found the lid to my pot, or the universe is messing with me again. I know, don't get ahead of myself, but it would be awesome if we hit it off. I am cautiously optimistic though as I sit here waiting to find something out awful. But so far, so good, and I can't wait to meet him. I could go hang out at the spa with him tomorrow night, but I am with child.

Keep your fingers crossed for me. I am prepared for yet another disappointment, but I am really hoping not.

Ginger

Guys like gals are individual. I think attractiveness is not in pictures but in the way we smile and move. We tend to judge too much, evaluate based on physical attributes when it's personality that truly counts.

It's about sass and style, confidence and attitude, plus our interest and interaction with our dates. We accept our faults and those in others. We can be interested in our dates as people if not as partners, you are not for me but I like you anyway and I had a lovely coffee.

I sense you invest too much too soon. Dating can be fun, it can be a chore if you want that. Don't invest, just move on for any reason you like. Just date, hang out and after a while make out. Less stress on it. He is not life partner material but you had a lovely evening.

Gently does it and walk from the abusive types.

My thoughts

V

I am curios, V, what makes you think I get "invested" easily? How do you define that? Because I don't feel invested. I feel disgusted at times the things some of these guys say to me, then I promptly block them. I had a date with a guy I met in a bar back in November,but we didn't feel that connection, so we moved on with kind words, no harm done. I like this current guy and I hope that we have a nice first date and it may lead to more. It's a hope, because if we don't have hope, we ain't got nothing. But noting I am invested in.

I agree personality truly counts. That's why I am sick of these guys judging me by the way I look, trying to pursue something that is ridiculous or simply non-compatible. Some of the most attractive people are ugly to me due to their personality.

We had an actual phone conversation last night. It was a good convo, and I was glad to put a voice to the text. We hope to have another one tonight. It's Monday and I can look forward to our Friday night baseball game.

Invested in that you are already imagining this guy as a perfect match. I know it's fun to get excited but also just remember you don't really know anything about him until you meet him in person.

Originally Posted By: kml

Invested in that you are already imagining this guy as a perfect match. I know it's fun to get excited but also just remember you don't really know anything about him until you meet him in person.

NO, no, no...... it was a joke, I promise. If anyone has seen my FB newsfeed, it's all pugs and recipes. So is his. It was a joke my friend made about him being a perfect match.

I AM excited. I ma excited to go to a baseball game on a Friday night, with a guy! That in itself is enough for now.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Attractive is all relative. I realize as men get older they all discover what they find attractive and it is different for everyone. Younger guys I think feel pressured to be attractive to the model type. Older men are a little more secure and experienced knowing that so many different things make a woman attractive. I believe you are an attractive woman.

I totally agree that attractiveness is relative. I mean, we are all different, so different things are appealing to different people. I prefer a cowboy, country boy type because I am a country farm girl. Not that I don't appreciate a man in a nice, well-fitting suit, but I prefer the Wranglers, boots and ball cap or cowboy hat look because that is just what does it for me. I also agree, to a certain extent, that "older" men seem to be somewhat less preoccupied with the actual physical looks of a person. Maybe it is because they realize even the most conventionally beautiful looks fade with age or something. I don't know. But, I will say, it has not always been my experience that older guys are less critical of physical appearance. I have had plenty of "gentlemen" in my age range that talk a good game until they see my picture, then they ghost me. Now, trust me, I don't want those guys who are so shallow that great conversation can be outweighed in a matter of seconds by seeing one quick photo, but still, it goes to the point that MANY people judge based heavily on looks. And before anyone swings a 2x4, I know that I'm just as guilty of it as others. I have looked at profiles on POF and other dating sites and even if their profiles sounded mildly interesting, I have passed them over because of what they looked like. It's a vicious cycle and I don't necessarily think there is an answer. I think it is how people are wired.

Having said all that, though, I STILL stand firm with my lid for every pot theory. I just know that is true............;)

Funny exH thing...

exH " I sent you an extra $12 by accident for aftercare"

me: "Thanks for the extra $12!"

Then he gave my text a thumbs down. I spend so far above and beyond anything he does for our child, you think an extra $12 would kill? Nope, he wants the money back.

I know, I shouldn't complain, he pays his measley child support.

it just gets under my skin that he would actually ask for the $12 back.

Ginger,

This is the perfect occasion to use all of those pennies you've been saving.

No no no - do it through an electronic transfer. That's how I send my spousal support.

I've always been tempted to change the question from the name of a cat to "A train leaves Chicago at 3:00pm travelling east ....."

I would send the cash in cents..

In an envelope

What a divot

V

Twelve dollars? He's making a point of telling you he sent you and additional $12? OMG! It's his daughter too. In this day and age...what is $12??? I could see if it was $100 or so...but $12? What a putz!

OMG, I love the idea of giving it to him in pennies! We do all electronic transfers, but it would be worth the extra $12 to give it by pennies.

Job, he is ridiculous with money. When he pays, everything is down to the penny. What drives me nuts is that there are so many little things he is responsible for half of, but I don't go around asking for it. It's truly a pain to ask fo rthose things and kind of degrading. So, I just pay it. So you would think he would let $12 slide.

Mind you, while I do make more money than him, his wife is a lawyer. I think I make more money than her though...... anyways, he is not hard up, he is simply cheap. He always has been and he always will be.

To top it off, I didn't get paid this week. Somehthing got messed up in the payroll when transferring my position. Now I am in the negative in my bank account, and my rent is due.

Yay me

Ginger, I'll pay your rent and then you can just pay me back when you get paid... Lol, see I am a rescuer

.

HELP!!

I booked my very first spin class since injury for this sunday with a friend. The instructor is FF's sister. She asked us to come to a class so I signed up for this one, I feel almost ready. So I paid and reserved a bike, but I didn't tell her.

Well, I look at her IG story and she tags FF in coming to her class on Sunday. WTF?! He's done ONE with me when she taught at a different place and we were dating. It's not really his thing, but his dad is going also, so he is probably going to support her.

So, what do I do? Cancel my class? I was really looking forward to going. Will it be too awkward? The GF wasn't tagged..... I don't know.

Why does he have to mess up my plans!?

UGH!Even stranger coincidence. Sunday is a year ago he broke up with me.

Cancel - go to another class later.

Or to a different class elsewhere.

Or out for margaritas with your girlfriends.

Just don't go there.

I agree w/kml...cancel or reschedule for a different class. You do not need to put yourself in a class where he and his father might be.

I know that you were looking forward to this class, but there will be others. Please do not go to this one.

I know I should just cancel. Mostly because it's her friends and family and I want I to be a nice day for them.

The weird thing is she can see who is signed up. She probably knows I am going. I wonder if he found out?

It doesn't matter. Maybe this is a sign from God that I am not ready to spin yet.

So, I'm going to express a different opinion and maybe even make some people mad, but I'm just going to say it.........why should you have to change YOUR plans just because FF is going to be there? Maybe I see things differently because I lived in a small town when I got a divorce, but if I had avoided places knowing my XH was going to be there, the only 2 places I could've ever gone were my house and work.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you just said above about wanting it to be a nice day for them and all that jazz, but why can't you just go and be polite IF they say anything to you and if not, just enjoy yourself and spin away? After all, isn't the spin part of the deal why you are REALLY going anyway?

Your relationship with FF is past. You signed up for his sister's class KNOWING she's his sister and the only thing that has changed is now, all of a sudden you find out he's going to be there. If you hadn't found that out ahead of time and you had showed up and he was there, how would you handle it? Would you leave or would you stay and participate then leave?

I promise, I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful or anything and not even really trying to convince you I'm right. Just giving you another viewpoint. You have to do what is right for you and if you think cancelling/changing is the right thing for you, by all means, do that. Whatever you do, just have fun!

Dawn,
I do not think you are being rude of disrespectful at all. Your opinion is a good one and one that Ginger needs to think about. My only concern is that the FF wound may still be raw and it may affect Ginger's having fun in the class. (I may be totally wrong in thinking that the wound is still a bit raw.)

I want to see Ginger have fun and if she thinks she can pull off being friendly, etc. while the "family" is there, then it's her call. Trying to put on a good face and not feeling uncomfortable around them may take a bit of concentration and work and then she may not really enjoy the class as much as going to a different one where there aren't so many of the FF's family there.

Ginger, can you go and be the best actress you can be while being in a room w/the FF and his family there?

I agree with Job and perhaps a round about way with Dawn but for different reasons. My bottom line is G should do what is best for HER. Seeing FF and family will just make her feel bad - it just will. It may appear to,THEM like she signed up to see HIM. I would not cancel to make them feel better or less self consious. It's not for or about THEM, it's about HER. Now if this was not an issue for her then Dawns points make sence but even FFs drunk texts bothered her. Why put yourself through that? Don't bother. Don't give them the satisfaction. Just cancel and go another time. Thats the smart play here.

But one year since already? Wow life goes so fast.

Absolutely agree with what Don just said.

If it just embarrassing then I would brass it out. Go looking really amazing, new gear etc

If it's going to upset you then give it a miss.

My thoughts

V

Each to their own.

Personally I wouldn't go. Some people have this thought process that if it's difficult or uncomfortable it is some type of personal growth opportunity. That's one way to look at it. It's just not mine. My way of looking at it is I don't need that in my life.

I haven't posted a ton but I'm still rooting you on G. Be well!

I knew that I would get good perspective and different perspective here.

I have been on both sides of the fence, with the exact same thought processes.

My first reaction was "Dam, I have to cancel now!" Then my next was "well that, is BS, I want to go!"

My fears in going is that he would think I was going because I knew he was going. But there is proof that I signed up for the class before she posted what she did.

We all know I can certainly go with my head up high because if I could hang around my ex and his affair partner with my head held high, I could definitely do it at a stupid cycling class. I had the though of going out and getting some new hot gym clothes (not that I can wear anything "hot" right now" and go and maybe it will motivate me to really have a good class.

Like you mentioned Zues, I have the thought process that I need to face everything difficult and uncomfortable to test my true strength. I realized with my IC that really, I don't have to do that.

I am still on the fence. It'll probably be a game time decision. I'm going to try to stay present and enjoy by baseball game tomorrow night.

Oh, and I was at PT and me and my man were talking and he was asking about exH (I was b!tching about him yesterday) he asked my story and I told him. he asked to see a pic of my ex and his new wife. All respectfully asking me if I was comfortable with it. I was. He said to me "FWIW, it was definitely his loss" He also keep eluding to how his whole family is gone for the weekend and the places he might go and hang out.

Zues, I have been thinking about you and I am glad you stopped by. I am rooting for you too, and it appears that you are doing very well.

Awww, that PT is definitely flirting with you.

.

I recommend not going to the spin class because it will hurt YOU. Why put yourself in that position? You wouldn't be going there thinking "suck it from, look what you're missing". You'd go there and analyze every word and wonder again why you weren't good enough for him (which you are, but he's an idiot). You'll feel awful no matter how it goes down, so just do something else.

As I said at the end of my last post and several others have said, you have to do whatever is best for you. You'll figure it out and you'll do what you are comfortable with. That's all you can do. Regardless of what you decide, cheers to a fabulous weekend!

Ginger,

I think you should get the PT guy to go with you to the spin class. Just in case your knee starts acting-up, you'd have the PT readily available to tend to your needs.

Hahaha I love this idea!

You guys are literally cracking me up. I do think PT was doing some flirting with me. He was showing me pictures of his really nice boat too, and eluding to inviting me with the work crew one day. I figure we will technically be coworkers soon enough, since we work for the same hospital system. I should bring him to the spin class with me, but that would make for awkwardness since FF's father will be there and they know each other. Such a densely populated state but everyone knows someone who knows someone here.

I am leaning towards going, believe it or not. I realized my only two reservations about going had to do with 1) is he going to think I am going because he is? and 2) I don't want to make his sister's friends and family thing awkward.

Well, it doesn't have to be awkward. I am going to go, spin, say hi to his sister, and go. I know that I knew after I booked that he was going and there is proof if it was ever questioned, I have it and his sister does too. But who cares. I am very over him, actually. Maybe it's a sensitive date on the calendar, but it's coincidence. we will see how I feel about it come game time.

Speaking of spin classes, my date works at a gym where one of my favorite spin instructors of long time works. We are FB friends, but I haven't seen him since he switched to this gym long ago. I asked my date if he knew him and he didn't, until today. He met him at work today when spin instructor's neck was hurting and he asked him to massage it. He told me he was taking me to one of his spin classes.

I am excited for tonight. I hope all goes well and we enjoy each other's company. A baseball game where you are together for a few hours is risky, but I think we are two people who can have a good time as long as he isn't a freak, which I don't think he is.

So, Dawn, all in all, I think it is adding up to be a good weekend. I love my daughter dearly, and I miss her, but last night was the first night in 11 that she went to her Dad's. I need a Mommy time weekend.

Did I mention our Niagra trip has been booked? I think I did. My dad and stepmom are coming and I am really excited. We got a great hotel overlooking the falls. I am glad i get to take the kiddo on vacation this year. Last year it never happened.

Go have fun.

V

Sooooo. We had a good time. I met his pug. I also met his mother! She's elderly and she lives with him. She also speaks very limited English. He translated for us. Her pug is creamated in a box, which she showed me. Her pug had the same name as my chihuaua.

I did end up going to his place which was on the way and he did drive. I took special precautions so my friend could track my location. He had bought the tickets, so I insisted on paying for the parking. I bought one of my own beers, and he paid the rest. Seats were good, we walked around the stadium, the Mets were getting killed, but rallied at the end and came within one run. It was fun. Learned a lot about him, he was a flight attendant before masseuse. He told me about all the famous people he has massaged (which is ALOT) and all the places he has visited. He has done some nice travelling.

Which brings me to this. I got a vibe from him. A maybe gay vibe. You knew something had to be funny about this, right? I can't explain it...... He would make a good gay friend though, lol. he is attractive. We had a kiss, kind of an awkward one. two of those closed lip kisses that you kiss your significant other goodbye with. We will probably see each other again. he said he wish he wasn't working all weekend, because he would want to hang out.

So, no sparks, but nice. I didn't feel like crying like I did the first time Mr. Softee kissed me. I was pretty neutral.

If anyone wants to know of a positive reconciliation story, IRL, a close friend and her husband have reconciled after a year and a half of separation. She was a WAW. I love her like a sister and I could not be happier. I actually cried when she told me. I am happy for her, her H and their kids. It is just an awesome happy thing to see it in front of your eyes. It does happen.

In my new job position, I deal with patients and their families, getting them set up to go home after some life-changing illness. I work in an acute rehab, and many are strokes. So they rehab as much as they can, then they go home to adapt with their new deficits. One thing I see ALOT are couples that have been married for 50, 60+ years. The love and commitment you see really exemplifies what marriage is and what it used to be. I have one H driving me absolutely nuts, but I get it, because he loves his wife so much. I talk to all of them about their marriage, they love talking about it. They all agree people run these days when they aren't "happy" they all agree "happiness" has taken on a new meaning in M. They all agree it is work, but anything that is worth having is work. They also all agree, because our society has changed so much where both parties have to work their butts off to afford anything, kids being helicoptered so much, it does really hurt marriages. No one enjoys the simple things anymore.

I wish I lived in an era where people didn't have much but they had what they needed. Marriages got a lot more attention then.

Just my ruminating.

Yes agreed. But i dont necessarily think its a society thing. You and i were both raised in the same society and both of us are pro loyalty, committment, and partnership.

If this were a different time period, my guess is that we would have been very miserable with spouses that were cheating, or spending all of the families earnings on drugs/alcohol. Or both.

I think its just that we picked peoole that are not capable of partnership.

Regarding the gay vibe, i think there have been so many changes regarding sexuality just in the past 10 years. More people are coming out as polyamorous, and bisexual and even asexual? So maybe something to talk about up front (at an appropriate time) if your intuition is telling you something. You can broach it as a social commentary maybe so it gives him the opportunity to tell you what hes looking for?

I think you are right Juju. I guess I keep on trying to rationalize my sitch and what I've been seeing around me lately.

As far as the gay vibe thing, if the time is right, I might explore the conversation as you mentioned, as a social subject.

My best friend growing up I could have swore was gay. Everyone thought he was gay. My dad sure thought he was gay. He always got the hottest chicks, though. He married and has 3 kids, but you know, I still think he is gay, even though I haven't seen him in so long. He, um, kind of experimented in college. I think my vibe is usually pretty on, but I have been off, lol. I guess we will see.

I had a dream during a lovely nap I took yesterday about PT guy confessing his feeling for me and kissing me. And boy was it some kiss. But only in my dreams!

I went to my spin class today. He didn't show up. His mom and dad did though, who didn't even speak to me, because I never really met them, except for his dad for a few minutes at the last spin class we all attended. I did text his sister yesterday letting her know I am coming and to make sure she was comfortable with it. She probably told him, and he backed out I dunno.

What did I learn today? I can ride for over an hour:) I was able to do all positions, although 3rd hurt for too long. I also learned I need to start thinking about me, not about if I am going to do something and if it will upset someone else. I never intentionally hurt anyone, but I am always scared my actions my make someone else uncomfortable. I DON"T CARE! You know how many people give a crap about how their choices might affect me. Most likely none.

While the class didn't trigger me, I am very emotional today. I've been on and off crying. It's a combo of things. But this happens to me often when I have weekends completely to myself without my daughter or anyone else for that matter. I felt empowered on that bike today.... it was a big reminder how I never give up. This past year was he!! in many ways. And sometimes I just wanted to crawl under a rock and never come, I simply never gave up.

Oh, D10 was facetiming me from her dad's house and she was walking through the house with the phone. ANd my God. There isn't one visibile surface in that house. Those people are pigs. It's awful.

Originally Posted By: Ginger

He married and has 3 kids, but you know, I still think he is gay, even though I haven't seen him in so long.

He still could be. I had a co-worker 17 years ago who I was certain was gay. But he was married with two kids. He was early/mid fifties then. A year ago one of my current co-workers told me "did you hear "Joe" divorced". "oh why" I asked... "he finally came out". In his mid/late sixties. So it is definitely not unthinkable that your vibe is spot on.

So much for your ex "living the dream" - he's living in a hoarder house! Or it will get there soon!

I like the PT dream - it just means you are open to romance, not necessarily him, but someone.

I'd skip the gay guy though. Keep looking. (I've met a couple of women who were married for years before their spouse came out as gay. Trust your spider sense. Plus he was a flight attendant! )

I am open to love, although it seems that I attract priests, the gays,the pervs, and the youngins'.

I should take this all as a sign from God to just give up trying to find a partner. Just like when I got a sign from the heavens when my chute didn't open up all the way when I jumped out of a plane for my engagement.

I should probably listen to the clear as day signs.

Ginger,

The honest truth; as soon as I read "he was a flight attendant before masseuse" I thought, "queer as a three dollar bill." Here's the doodler assessment: his mom is nearing the end and he's never had the heart to tell her he's gay so he's dating women because his mom has been pushing him to get married before she dies. I could be wrong.

It's time to slip into my floral dress and go to work...

Originally Posted By: doodler

Ginger,

The honest truth; as soon as I read "he was a flight attendant before masseuse" I thought, "queer as a three dollar bill." Here's the doodler assessment: his mom is nearing the end and he's never had the heart to tell her he's gay so he's dating women because his mom has been pushing him to get married before she dies. I could be wrong.

It's time to slip into my floral dress and go to work...

I know, I know, I know! You have to hear his voice too. Oh my. And you are probably right about waiting for the mom to pass.

He has been working doubles this weekend, but he hasn't really communicated since yesterday. Maybe he knows I am onto him

I can't OLD anymore. Too many unknown variable that I am not mentally prepared for anymore. I am only expecting the worst anymore.

The only reason i used OLD was because i had no time to meet people.

But i think the trick is to not have any expectations. Just make it about a night out socializing and what comes, comes. Keep it in the background of your very fulfilling life. At the very least it makes for funny stories with your friends amd coworkers.

My NG said he was on there for a year i think, and look how lucky he got when one day i posted to him! (Joke... partially) but it does happen.

Totally agree with Juju about OLD. You have to go in with absolutely ZERO expectations, which is virtually impossible. I used it because I live in a fairly small town and it is hard to meet single people. OLD hasn't necessarily helped that, but I met Sparky online, so there is that. LOL

Oh sure here we go again with me agreeing with Doodler but I too after reading about the flight attendant thing thought, um hmmm that's interesting. I do have to disagree on the mom pushing him to get married. What, married for the fourth time? What sence would that make?

As for bringing it up, yeah you can, I guess, I just highly doubt that will net anything. If he's this much in denile he's not going to reveal that which is so deep down.

I've not kept track G but this may be the 221st time you've said you are giving up OLD. Just sayin.

I remember when I met in some ways one of the only women I've actually been really interested in over the past few years, one of the things that attracted me to her was our talk about OLD. This lady is very, very sharp and perhaps too smart for her own good - data scientist sharp. When she called OLD the "land of misfit toys" I was like OMG YES!!!! G is that not true? The land of misfit toys is what you and I have both found OLD. Now even misfit toys can be fun to play with now and then but...

I still think it's good you have gone and are going out with these guys. Yeah you are not finding the huge romance you are looking for but I'll bet your date on Friday was more fun than the Sunday you describe. Right? So it is not a love connect, that's okay. It was still fun as have been some of the other misfits. They are just not your favorite toys or your love connection. That's okay.

Not sure what to tell you about OLD. I can say that for me, I have been happier not doing that anymore. I'm still getting about the same result but no frustration. Not sure if that's the case for you or not. Honestly I think you should give the PT kid his older woman expierence. That's just me.

.

G - just curious. Are most of your OLD dates guys YOU contacted, or guys that contacted you?

I'm wondering because in my case, it was about 50:50, or maybe even more skewed towards me contacting them.

Now that does have some built in problems - perhaps I was more likely to wind up with avoidant men that way - but also meant that most of the guys I met for coffee were actually guys I was likely to be interested in (because, after all, I picked them!).

Also - I used OkCupid, which gives percentages for compatibilty based on your questionnaire answers. I knew I could exclude anyone who had any significant "percent enemy" (which usually meant wildly divergent views on politics or sex) and the closer to 90% or above compatibility, the greater the likelihood that I would like them.

I've been online dating for YEARS. I've tried every site (bot not tinder), I've been the intitiator, and the responder. When doing this for years, you become very jaded having nothing come close to working out. Then when you deal with so many wackadoos, you get jaded. Zero expectation? Well, yes, at this point I have zero expectations of having a decent experience.

The gay one seems to have ghosted to me too.

I swear, I am for real done. I am really just deflated.

On the lighter side, I told my PT about my date and we cracked up. She said she is bringing me by her house to go out to change my scenery of men. She is recently single herself. Then I brought a Met's cup to PT guy and he was very flattered. He didn't realize it was a date until tonight, and he actually looked jealous! Then he saw my FB post today about me wanted to put a bike hitch on my car, and he was looking them up online, the make and model of my car, and wants to help me.

It really just feels cruel.

Oh, and today the manager wanted to meet with me to "check-in" the good news is that people apparently really like me. But she wants me to dress more "professional" WTF? I wear dresses and stuff. My wardrobe was fine in corporate. My counterpart who is in her 60's and has been there for many years wears suits everyday. when I told her she laughed. She said "I am old, you are young, she doesn't understand what young professional is"

So now, I've got to buy new really dressy clothes I guess. which I will be putting a lab coat over anyways?

Just ranting on here.

I need some more endorphins, I am down.

Have you tried letting a girlfriend pick your online dates for you? Couldn't be worse, right? I know my girlfriend just doesn't pick up the clues that I do from their profiles.

PT totally has a crush on you. Just enjoy it.

As for the work dress code - what do you think she's really telling you? Is it code for "you look too young" or "you look too hot" or "your boobs are distracting "? Could some simple lightweight 50"s style cardigans transform some of those dresses into more conservative outfits?

Yup, I let my girlfriends pick too. No one is who they say they are online, though. I am realizing that is happening to me anyways. I have been totally ghosted by gay guy out of nowhere. No indications that he would be one to do that.

I actually dress really nice at work. I hate dressing up, but I have to. Since I despise wearing pants that aren't leggings I wear nice skirts and I have an obsession with dresses. I am trying ot figure out what it was. I have boobs and I butt but I am conservative in dress. nothing revealing ever To note, though: said manager came to work in t-shirt with a sugar shell on it today?!? Maybe it is because I look young and I don't dress "old", I dunno. But I always do makeup and hair professionally too.

Anyways, I was in bad mood this morning and I sorta took it out on my D. She did something I had asked her a million times over not to do, and I just lost it. I apologized. But I feel bad. I think I am going to take her out for ice cream tonight.

Some days its too much to take on alone, but hey, I have been taking on everything alone for 10 years, and I have everything much more calm, cool, and collected in the past 5 years, even when I want to scream and rip my hair out. I am forgiving myself for this bad morning.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

said manager came to work in t-shirt with a sugar shell on it today?!?

Would have been the perfect time to re-open the conversation, asking to clarify what she means by more professional.

for what it's worth, the type of woman I'm meeting on OLD doesn't seem any better than the type of men you describe and meet with. I find myself having to remember that I'm a good catch and don't have to settle, but definitely wonder if i'll ever find someone whose equally or even close to as good a catch (I can't even seem to find a woman with a job).

I'm just telling you, OLD is the land of misfit toys - which is why we don't fit in! It really is.

Gay guy ghosting you us actually probably a good thing in the end but I get it, even "he" is ghosting you? But is it really ghosting, like he's ignoring your texts or calls? Either way ITS NOT YOU!!!!!!

Was with this guy on Sunday. He's in his 50s never been married but totally one of those guys who does not fit in. He's nice enough and harmless, on disability from his life long career of a grocery store stock manager (I'm not kidding either) again, nice guy but just clueless. Now his kidneys have shut down and he's on dialysis - thus the full disability. Imagine our shock when he shows up with a "girlfriend". The rest of us are all like... ???? "How did you two meet?" We ask. match dot com was their answer. Of course it was!

Haha! Im a little bit misfitty, so that makes complete sense.

Theres just a lot of messed up people out there i think. And it takes some luck.

1. You have to weed out the waywards that divorced their spouse in search of happinesss.

2. You have to weed out people that are single for a reason.

3. You have to weed out pedophiles and con artists and scammers and serial killers and the polyamorous.

So i think it requires intuition and luck. Its a bit of a numbers name.

DB should have a singles and looking to date section. That might not be entirely healthy though. But any more dangerous then OLD?

Originally Posted By: JujuB

DB should have a singles and looking to date section. That might not be entirely healthy though. But any more dangerous then OLD?

Been there, done that, lol.....

One has indeed, been more dangerous than OLD, believe it or not.

Really though. I have been weeding for years. Anyone who starts off good, becomes someone who must be weeded out. I've done it all and have been unsuccessful for years. It's not meant for me. I deleted my app, because when I read the profile of the guys communicating with me, I actually became angry. I'm just done. The ones who come across decent on paper end of having something that is a dealbreaker. You, know, like being gay, or serious perversion. They hold those tight to their vests and then just zero in when they think it's safe.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

You, know, like being gay, or serious perversion.

Picky, picky, picky...

One of the things that I find totally frustrating in OLD is the lack of personal insight most people have. Men seem to think it is ok to be very picky about what they want in a woman (certain height, certain weight, certain body type, etc.), but those same men tend to NOT be ones who care about their own self. I just ran across a profile the other day when I had logged in to clear out messages that perfectly illustrated my point.

On a side note, I need to just take my profile down because I never respond to messages. In fact, Sparky's very first message was the last time I engaged online and we quickly moved to another platform through which to communicate.

Anyway, this particular profile and message caught my attention because it was a guy I went to high school with and while we were actually friends and ran in the same circle in high school, he clearly either doesn't remember me or didn't recognize me in the photos (though I look VERY much like I did in high school, so I doubt that he didn't recognize me...I'm leaning toward just not remembering at all). Anyway, in high school, he was kinda cute, but not really the sharpest tool in the shed, but he was a nice guy. He's done well for himself in many respects post high school, but the grammar on his profile was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad. But he was quick to say he preferred an educated woman. The smart a$$ in me immediately thought, well yeah, you NEED an educated woman to teach you some darn grammar. I know that makes me sound SO snotty, but I just can't abide that. It is frustrating and annoying to me and seems to just be lazy. It's not that hard to write properly but he writes just like I remember him speaking and I just can't even with someone who truly thinks "ain't" is an actual word. And, dang I sound snotty to the nth degree now. LOL I probably made a grammatical error too, that now makes me look hypocritical but you get my point, hopefully.

Another one I saw that same day was a relatively nice looking guy who was talking about wanting a woman who was fit (nothing wrong with that) as he has an active lifestyle and wants someone to enjoy activities like jogging, biking, hiking, etc. with him. Ok, no problem, at least he didn't come out and say "no fat chicks". But, he went on and on about how he's not hung up on looks, but kept describing himself as tall, fit, athletic, handsome. Then when you read the actual specs of his profile and look at his pics, he's 5'7" and he's a bit overweight. Not that I am judging his weight, mind you, because I AM a fat chick and have no right to do so, however, don't put yourself out there as being "tall" when you are 5'7" and don't say you are fit and athletic, when you clearly are not. To me, that goes back to what I said at the beginning about lack of personal insight. Frustrating.........................

Dawn is so right!!! I found that really annoying as well. A lot of men were like that with age. They would specify and ask people to respect their age criteria and then that same guy that was past my age criteria would write to me. I dont mind that if i said my cut off was 10 years older, and soneone 11 years older wrote to me. But it wqs pretty nervy of them to specify that they did not want a certain age woman writing to them and then ignore me. Or to not want to date a woman their own age. That was a red flag.

I found it so hilarious that these old geezers clearly in their 70s were looking for women 30-45, fit, athletic, etc.

I remember looking at these profiles and the photos of these guys and thinking, "Why would someone young enough to be your daughter want YOU?"

maybe I'm shallow but ... it was ridiculous!

Well first - let me say I'm not one to judge, as I have dated some men who were much younger then me.

But I have read articles about studies showing that when men look in the mirror, they see an inflated version of themselves. While women focus on their flaws, men apparently think they're hot stuff even with a Santa Claus beard and beer belly.

My experience in the past was that when I contacted men who'd set their age limit a little below my age, they usually weren't bothered at all by my age. I think for some, they're just worried about people who are old mentally - rigid, uninterested in new things etc. I set my upper age limit just a few years older than mine, but if a guy contacted me who was above my age range but was healthy fit and interesting, I'd be interested.

(I heard a story through a friend about a women who went to meet her OLD for lunch. He was much older than his photos, frail. When he figured out she wasn't going to go to a motel with her he asked for a ride home because his son had driven him there. Being a nice person, she dropped him off - at his NURSING HOME!!!!)

A whole bunch of D bags really. High standards for everyone else, but themselves.

Well, it's that time of year again. Mother's day, my bday, my mom's bday..... where I just get depressed. Every year I have hope I might be in a different place, then another year comes, and I am still alone.

D10 went with her dad last night and I was supposed to go to spin with 2 friends but they backed out and I decided not to go. I just laid on the couch and cried and watched TV. I had a million and one things to do and I felt like doing none of them.

I was discharged from PT and I am really sad about it. I never saw my surgeon because his office is awful, and I just discharged myself. I miss everyone already.

What can I say? I am lonely. I wish I had family. I always imagined my house being busy with kids and an H and members of both of our families. And really, I have none. NO brothers or sisters, nieces or nephews, and I always hoped to have some through M atleast. Dad lives in another state, Mom is dead.

It's a lonely life. I'd give almost anything to just move away and start over. Nothing is keeping here. Just my exH, really.

I am freaking out about work too. Some things they did not clue me in on. Like the main Care manager is going to Jamaica for 2 weeks, in one week, with me, only a month into the job. They cross trained a floor nurse (pretty much at the same time as me, she's new to this role too) to work with me while she is gone. Well, the floor manager wants her to work the floor and there is a battle. I cannot handle this for 2 weeks, with all the patients alone. I just can't. There is so much I don't know yet. I'll burn to the ground, probably run out crying, and then to top it off, after I learned all these computer programs, we are getting a whole new system starting the Monday she comes back.... which equals no time off for a month, and a whole new learning curve. I love the job, but they left out this BS.

Just feeling down.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Just feeling down.

Sorry!

If you come pick me up from the nursing home, I could show you a real good time.

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Just feeling down.

Sorry!

If you come pick me up from the nursing home, I could show you a real good time.

Haha, thank you!

I do love old people. That's why I love my job and have always enjoyed the geriatric population......

although not in that way.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I do love old people.

Listen Missy, the diaper stays on for the first date.

Sorry you are feeling down. If I lived closer, I would swing by and pick you up for some girl talk, but I think you are way farther north than I am.

I was just reading something online earlier about how some people get anxiety this time of year because they don't have their mom anymore (for a variety of reasons) and commercials, newspapers, social media are just all up in their face about moms. I realize every single day how lucky I am to not only now live close to my family geographically, but how totally, completely undeservedly blessed I am that I am emotionally close to the people who are most important in my life.

Hang in there G. Your time is coming. As far as the job, that sux, but isn't it always the case when you are going for a job? They sugar coat everything and give you the pretty version. So unfair! I think employers know if they told you the truth, you would run screaming from them like your hair was on fire. You got this, though. You are a strong woman!

Poor planning on your jobs part! Just take it day by day. They constantly change or make modifications to our electronic notes as well. For some reason the changes never actually help to make things more efficient though. I just wish apple would take over.

You have single handedly raised a beautiful daughter! You deserve to have a wonderful mothers day. Single moms are the best...strong, down to earth, resilient etc. You really have so much ginger. Education, career, healthy child, tons of friends, wisdom to stay away from crappy potential relationships. Dont focus on what you dont have.

We talking Epic by any chance? It's headquartered here in my state. G don't put pressure on yourself. From the little I know about your new gig, patient safety won't be at risk and I'm certain you'd never let that happen anyhow. So just do what you can and don't let it become your issue. You are still learning all the ins and outs and can't be expected to do more than you are able so don't stress yourself out.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I received a happy Mothers day from everyone,

Except the father of my child.
Hes got an all time low this year.

Post restored.
Stop using contractions and they will not disappear

Cadet,

Contractions aren't the only problem. Vanilla attempted to post and she didn't have any contractions in her posting.

I can use every contraction every post from a PC, but anything I post from my IPhone does not post. Unless it's the IPhone that will not let you use contractions? I am on my PC now and I am sure it's going to post just fine.

And I just lost a whole post to my dumb computer.

Anyways, thanks for the support. I am just down. Booking a trip to Mexico helped. I am going with friends. Well, I am meeting them there as I can't quite afford the whole 7 days. But 4 nights is enough for me. I got my own room. How romantic! Then a week to work, then 5 days in Niagara.

Yes, Don, it is Epic. Many in our company have been there in the past year and a half or so. My old director was. I used it on the billing side and it had lots of build issues.....now I am going to use it on the somewhat clinical side, and hopefully it will go ok. Our organization actually bought out this this old business school which was huge and it is now the "EPIC training facility". Go live is never fun, it is on my birthday actually. everyone who has been out there says the EPIC campus is beautiful and huge, but in the middle of nowhere, lol.

No, I won't harm anyone clinically without adequate training, but I could have lots of patients and families be pissed at me, and cost lot the company a lot of money if I mess up. Hopefully none of that will happen!

I just leaned on the keyboard and erased what I wrote about her father. My daughter actually texted her father because she knew I was upset to text me a happy Mother's day. She made excuses for him, like "Daddy is hosting a mother's day party, so he was probably too busy" (that made me feel great!). I did not respond to his text. He dropped a gift outside my door. he never took the effort to take D10 to get me anything (they had all the time in the world last weekend) so I am pretty sure the gift was bought by his wife. ANd the card was highly impersonal, written by him, as if he was D10. I would have preferred nothing at all. No expectations, he is a crappy person, but this still hurts.

I just want to fast forward to July......

hello dear heart just wanted to wish you a happy mother's day xoxoxo

BTW, I spent more than half my life with my exh ... 26 years almost at BD. I am the mother of his only child. I didn't even get a text saying Happy Mother's Day. It is what it is. My son was supposed to be picked up at 10am by his dad, but instead spent the morning with me and then a quick visit in the afternoon as well.

There is a reason we are free from them.

I know how you feel. My ex sent me a "Happy Mothers Day" text and it kind of left me feeling unsettled.

Its the bare minimum he could do, without completely ignoring it. It actually fits in with his parenting style. He does the bare minimum. A little less then what a court would have given him. 20/80 at the most.

It felt cruel though. Its not like i expected anything from him. He feels like he gives me way too much in child support. (He doesnt. Again its the mininun) its not like i expected a "thank you for all the work and effort you out into our son. Hes lucky to have you" (he cant cause then it opens it up to how sh!tty of a dad he is)

Its just that that measly acknowledgement from the person that basically grew up with me, witnessed a really traumatic birth, etc. Etc. Just felt like a huge insult.

Sorry for the hijack. I just know how you feel. Its like that request for 12 dollars. Its like a "wow. They really are that bad arent they" reminder.

Originally Posted By: job

Cadet,

Contractions aren't the only problem. Vanilla attempted to post and she didn't have any contractions in her posting.

Yes in Vanilla's case it was the word

canapes with the special letter e

So I don't get in trouble for extending this thread, I'm gonna start by saying it's time to start a new thread.

Now, since I'm here anyway, I didn't send my ex a Happy Mothers Day greeting, wish, gift or anything else. I'm not sure if I fall into the same group as your ex since I wasn't the one that got her pregnant.

I think I see them as individual entities, my ex and my son, not as my son and his mother. Maybe her pretty much abandoning him while she went on her girls gone wild year made me stop thinking of her as a mother, I don't know. But whatever the reason, I considered sending my ex-MIL a happy M-day greeting, but it never even occurred to me to send my ex one until I saw your post.

Happy Mother's day to you beautiful ladies! BTTFLY, yes, there is certainly is a reason why we are free from them. I am so sorry you weren't acknowledged at all after all that time and all you do. Have you considered amending your D agreement so no matter who's weekend you have mother's day, and he has father's day? We have that in our weekend and it works well.

C-nut. My ex may dislike me, and I may dislike him, and we may never ever want to be eachother's spouses again, but we went through IVF together. he had his nuts cut open to have our baby, I went through the IVF procedure many, many shots, the hormones, the procedures, we almost lost her early on, I had an early delivery with complications......

We may hate eachtoher, but what both have done to bring her into this world, should be respected by each other. It was disrespected with the affair, sure, but it's the one thing I hold hope out for after all these years. That he will me honor me as our daughter's mother if anything. But I never gotten a thank you for all you do for our daughter(and we must both admit I raise the child)

perhaps it's the one last thing I stay attached to and hold out some sort of hope and expectation for. But I guess if it hasn't happened in 10 years, it isn't going to happen now.

I am having a bad day at work. irate family member, a Social worker who is blaming things on me where blame doesn't belong, and I found out I need to come in on a Sunday, which happens to be my birthday and My daughter's dance dress rehearsal. So, screw me.

I think I am going to not start another thread for a while. It's too depressing.

New Thread:

Can't make this sh!t up