Hey!
I've been active for a while in Newcomers. My mediation was successful and my D will happen any day now, so I think it's time for me to ascend to the next level.
Here's a link to my latest thread in newcomers:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2773856&page=1 Intro and recap for those who may not know me:
Married 19 years with 2 kids: S11 and S15. XW has always been very bossy. She spent most of our M never being satisfied with much. She was very career oriented and usually came home around their bedtime. She was a great weekend mom, acting as the scout leader, planning activities and photo ops. But I was the one with the kids every night, getting them fed, helping them with homework. I was a typical "nice guy", always trying to accommodate her, but secretly getting resentful of her apparent lack of care over me or her kids. We had a SSM, where it went from maybe twice a month, to once a month, and then once every few months. I felt like she had broken my libido. I got a vasectomy about 6 years ago, since a "close call" scared the F out of me and made me realize I'd be raising another child while she pretended to be Wonder Woman. Everyone gets fat in M, and while I put on around 25 pounds, XW put on 80 - it wasn't an issue for me though. We went to MC 3 times over the course of our M. It would get better for a while, but then the status quo would return.
Around December of 2016 I started to get low-level depression about the state of my life and especially our M. She got into fitness and started losing weight. I could feel her slipping away, becoming more distant. There were times I thought about D. But then my sister went through her own D and I saw how absolutely destructive it was, especially for the kids.
Soon after that, in April of 2017, I had BD, where XW informed me she was thinking about D. She blamed me for the faults in our M, and said the M is what caused her to gain so much weight. I was a complete mess and did all the wrong stuff for about a month, and I lost 25 pounds. Then I discovered DBing, and I bought the DR book. I did a really cr@ppy job of DBing at first, but then slowly got better, until she told me she wanted to D in July. That happened at the same time she'd been having inappropriate communications with a man, who was long distance (I saw on her phone). We told the kids about the D a week later, and they were devastated. XW was unfazed by their tears. Second to BD, that was the worst day of my life.
The OM sitch and her final decision to D sent me into an anger phase that took months to come out of. She got a L and filed. I got a L. She refused to move out and I endured 7 months of in-house separation h3ll. I was cold and non-communicative - I knew this wasn't good DB'ing, but it was the best I could do. She was angry, manipulative, and cruel (you can scour my threads for the juicy bits). It was during this time that I finally started to see I might be better off without her in my life. I finally wanted the D too.
She moved out in January, we had mediation a week later, and now we're just waiting for the decree to be finalized. We have 50/50 custody of the kids with alternating weeks. I got to keep the marital home, which was a big deal for me. I feel like all the darkness is clearing away and I can finally imagine a good future for myself.
Since mediation she's been mean and is obviously angry. I just want to move on with my life and experience some positivity. Any time I have to interact with her is still uncomfortable, but it's getting easier.
My weeks alone I spend reorganizing the house, going out with friends, and meeting with a NGS support group. The GAL is finally feeling like it's just for me. I have fleeting moments of sadness, but overall I feel pretty positive. I do a lot of talking to myself at home, to work through emotions. Sometimes I talk out loud to XW, and I can say whatever I want to her. I feel like it helps.
When I have the kids, things are pretty much normal feeling. XW was never around much, so I'm used to doing "all the things". We're all in the house, going about work and school, like we've done for years. There's an empty chair at the kitchen table, but most nights it was empty anyway.
About 5 years ago there was a TV show called Awake, where this guy wakes up each day in one of 2 realities, where either his wife or son died in a car crash.
Switching between these weeks makes me feel like I'm living 2 parallel lives. One where I'm a single guy rediscovering himself. The other where I'm the same dad I've always been. It's weird.
I've been thinking about dating. I know the wisdom here is that it's too soon. Maybe it is. I still think about it and build my mental list of what I'm looking for in a woman. It's mostly the exact opposite of XW.
Hey Holding! Welcome
Welcome.
Great point. Being divorced does feel like living 2 parallel lives! Its no longer about living 100% for your family.
Suddenly (if you share custody) you get
"me time". Something i imagine the walkaways desperatly wanted. I know a few overwhelmed parents that would love an every other weekend to themselves. To be young again. Flirt, date.
And it is fun. I still would have preferred the traditional family unit though.
Thanks, JujuB.
And it is fun. I still would have preferred the traditional family unit though.
Amen, sister!
Crosspost from my thread in the Newcomers Forum. Maybe some of y'all have some insight on this issue:
Need some advice on whether I'm doing the right thing with "coparenting".
(I put that word in quotes because I freaking hate it. "Gee, maybe if we give it a nice name, it'll be less awful." Let's call it what it is: parenting when divorced.)
Anyway, a few days ago S15's teacher called at the house (my house) asking for us to call her about his recent performance in class. I sent XW a message on the messaging website letting her know about the call and passing along the teacher's number. Then the next day I called the teacher myself and talked about the issue with her. Later in the evening (after the school day was over), XW messaged me asking when we could do a conference call with the teacher. I responded that I wasn't aware we needed to call the teacher together, and I'd already talked with the teacher. I offered to give her a recap of the convo if she'd like. Otherwise she's free to call the teacher herself.
XW has sent me a message sarcastically thanking me for including her, and how she takes issue with me doing things solo because it makes her appear as an absent parent. Then she went on about how we're coparenting and need to do everything together. she finished with "Anything less is unacceptable". She loves to use that word.
I can see her point of view to a degree, but I think it's ironic that she's throwing an accusation at me after she asked me not to make accusations to her several days ago.
So how am I supposed to manage this? Was I a bad "coparent" by making the call solo? We've never discussed that we need to do these things together, and I haven't kept any information from her.
I admit there's room for improvement here and finding a new equilibrium, but d@mn, I can't deal with the attitude!
You are a dad and kids always come first. Every time.
There are many ways of approaching parenting, I fostered for a long time and thus have trod the difficult path of including warring parents.
If the two of you put your kids first then you caneed co-parent. That means together. If not then you are parallel parenting. Each of you doing that which is needed on your own dime.
Other parents here canow guide you better. My view is kids come first always.
V
I would have done the same as you. I would have called the teacher on my own and passed along the information. It would be more convenient and more efficient for me that way. Which is better for the kids. I like to know and take care of these types of things asap. And having to coordinate times with the other person just makes things complicated. Thankfully my ex is fine with this. And I keep him in the loop. He is more then welcome to call the teachers on his own.
Maybe in the future you can get around this by making the call by yourself and then offer to schedule an additional meeting with all of you for the future if the problem with your child does not
get resolved.
To me it seems like your ex cares more about how it appears for the teacher then the actual issue with your child. If i was her, I would have been focused on what the teacher said about my child as opposed to you making it look like shes an absent parent.
I am dealing with another mom (yup shes a walkaway) that has a similar attitude. She is bat sh!t crazy. And the things your ex says "We need to do everything together. anything less is unacceptable" are things controlling but incompetent people say. Your wife sounds controlling and incompetent and concerned only about appearances.
I didn't want to give any thoughts about the childcare side of things, as I don't have children and don't feel qualified to say anything about that, but the thing that jumped out at me straight away was the 'we need to do everything together, anything less is unacceptable' felt like quite a controlling thing to say.
This seems to be quite a common feature of S who leave (maybe particularly those that have been having As as well). You probably know all this already. And I'm guessing it's going to crop up in various guises and over time.
The XW of my partner (they've now been separated 7 years and D for maybe 5 years. She had an A) said to him a couple of months ago 'if you lose the dog I'll kill you. It's like a child to me'. We were taking his daughter and her dog for a walk in the hills. The dog has run away a couple of times in the past when it's been off the lead.
He didn't react to what she said in front of her, I reckon he's become a master of non-reacting. She probably didn't even consider/think/notice what was going on his side of things, but he was really upset and angry privately. And it had the effect of him wanting to keep her at arm's length even more.
Back to how to deal with it...
V, JujuB, and Focus, thanks for the feedback. I ended up responding with "If you'd like to be included in calls in the future, I'm willing to coordinate. Would you like to know the details of what I discussed with his teacher?" So far, no response. I realize I spent WAY too much time giving this issue mental space. I need to work on that.
V, I want to put my kids first. I feel like everything I do, XW has to pop her head in and say, "what about me?" I'm not sure if that means we're headed to parallel parenting instead of coparenting. Honestly, I'm fine with the parallel route if that makes it easier for me. XW's attitude is really dragging me down.
Maybe in the future you can get around this by making the call by yourself and then offer to schedule an additional meeting with all of you for the future if the problem with your child does not get resolved.
That's a good suggestion, and I'll try it. But I have a feeling XW will say no, she wants to be involved in the first call. But I'll make a prediction - after me reaching out to her for a few times to schedule calls, she'll get tired of it and tell me to handle it myself when it's "my week" and just let her know what was discussed.
To me it seems like your ex cares more about how it appears for the teacher then the actual issue with your child. If i was her, I would have been focused on what the teacher said about my child as opposed to you making it look like shes an absent parent.
I think you're right. Notice how she never asked me for details of what I discussed with the teacher? And it's not how the teacher views it per se. I think she wants the records to show she was involved. I wouldn't be surprised if my XW tries to come back later and get primary custody - she's very competitive and doesn't like to lose (50/50 custody is a ding to her supermom image).
I am dealing with another mom (yup shes a walkaway) that has a similar attitude. She is bat sh!t crazy. And the things your ex says "We need to do everything together. anything less is unacceptable" are things controlling but incompetent people say. Your wife sounds controlling and incompetent and concerned only about appearances.
When did you meet my XW? Seriously, "controlling and incompetent" hits the nail on the head. She is all about appearances and is obsessed with Facebook.
the thing that jumped out at me straight away was the 'we need to do everything together, anything less is unacceptable' felt like quite a controlling thing to say.
This seems to be quite a common feature of S who leave (maybe particularly those that have been having As as well). You probably know all this already. And I'm guessing it's going to crop up in various guises and over time.
Yes, XW was very used to controlling me, and she's very angry that I'm putting up boundaries to stop that. And there was an EA and possibly a PA.
She honestly thought our old life and way of interacting would continue (me always being the nice guy and picking up her slack), with the exception that we'd be living in different houses.
The XW of my partner (they've now been separated 7 years and D for maybe 5 years. She had an A) said to him a couple of months ago 'if you lose the dog I'll kill you. It's like a child to me'.
Oh God. That's insane! I'm going to assume her tone was not joking.
He didn't react to what she said in front of her, I reckon he's become a master of non-reacting. She probably didn't even consider/think/notice what was going on his side of things, but he was really upset and angry privately. And it had the effect of him wanting to keep her at arm's length even more.
Good for him for not reacting. Luckily my XW and I don't have many face-to-face interactions, it's all via messages on the familywizard. So I can take my time with reactions and respond in a formal way. But I think XW enjoys pushing my buttons, so she will be looking for ways to get under my skin in person.
One thing I've learnt Holding, is that when a S has an affair, they have been the one controlling their partner's reality.
An A can only start/continue/flourish by being hidden from the S.
I guess they get used to having that control and expect it, and think that it's going to continue like that as well.
And if they find that it doesn't continue (for whatever reason), they then get angry because they're not getting what they want from you, and up the stakes, or raise the temperature of the interaction in order to get some sort of reaction from you.
You probably know all of this already. It definitely helps me a lot when I'm coming across this sort of behaviour. It helps me detach from it and not feel as personally involved in it and persecuted by it.
Focus, thanks for the insight. My XW is definitely raising the stakes and trying to provoke me.
I'm trying to establish boundaries with her, but she's fighting me at every step. Our interactions are getting worse and worse. I'm maintaining a calm cool tone, but she is demanding, impatient, and inconsiderate. This is all via the familywizard.
Last night she let herself into my house (the old marital home) without my permission, when my son opened the door for her. I got home 5 minutes later and found her walking out of my bedroom - probably snooping. I hovered until she left.
I sent her a message reminding her that she cannot enter without my permission, and noted that she did so that evening.
Now she's changing the subject, accusing me of hiding the fact that S15 stayed home sick from school, and saying I tried to block her from communicating with S15 by taking away his phone (it was so he would rest at home). She's making up the rules as she goes, and then trying to bust me for breaking them.
I know she's trying to get me to snap. I wish she'd get a life. Why can't she bother OM or something?
It's hard to detach from this.
Why can't she bother OM?
Because she's already got him dangling by a string. And my reckoning is that she wants you dangling by a string as well. Extra attention and all that.
Hmm, I'm tempted to say to keep a record of seeing her coming out of your room, and a record of the message. Just for yourself. I wouldn't tell her that's what you're doing. Just a log of this sort of stuff. You might not need it, but you might end up using it.
I think back to my own situation and realise how much of a total stranger my XH turned into. It must have been lurking below the surface for a good while before it kinda burst out into the open. He did and said things that made me think I didn't know him at all and he was a total stranger to me.
Now I operate on the principle that I have no idea who he is and/or what he's capable of doing or saying. It's easier for me, as we don't share children. But that's my way of thinking.
I remember one evening a couple of months after he'd left he came round and tried to get it. I was supposed to have been out at work, but I wasn't well so I was home, watching the TV really quietly. He tried the locks a couple of times and then left. I had changed the locks a short while before because knowing that he could come in to my house at any time and without warning wasn't helping my state of mind or my healing. It was one of the best things I ever did, I felt so much safer afterwards, more peaceful.
I don't think he knew I was there. And he's never mentioned it, or referred to it. But I know.
Anyway, if you're not doing it already, I can recommend some guided meditation tutorials on YouTube. They help you access that space in yourself that is between someone doing or saying something and your reaction. Then you can **choose** your reaction. I've been doing them for a good while now, and they've changed my life.
Focus, thanks for the feedback.
That's frightening that your XH tried to get in when you were home. Good thing you changed the locks!
I'll be changing the locks very soon, but I'm concerned she'll get access to the new key by looking through the kids' backpacks when they're with her. If she comes in again without my permission, I'll have the police issue her a trespass warning.
(Funny, my IC actually told me a few weeks ago that I could probably wait on changing the locks, since XW "knew" she needed my permission to enter.)
Meditation has always been hard for me. I don't know why. It's just really hard to calm myself - I'm a bit neurotic by nature. Anything "light" you can recommend?
Holding,
Check this website to see if they have any locations near you. It was the first time I ever tried meditating, and my second time there I reached a state that was amazing. It was like perception was altered, truly an amazing experience. I went for a few months before I moved away and always left feeling regenerated.
It was completely free where I went, I think it's the same everywhere, and was a really enjoyable group of people. Click find at the top right of the screen to see their locations.
http://www.sahajameditation.com/
Calm.com or headspace are two guided aps
Focus, thanks for the feedback.
That's frightening that your XH tried to get in when you were home. Good thing you changed the locks!
I'll be changing the locks very soon, but I'm concerned she'll get access to the new key by looking through the kids' backpacks when they're with her. If she comes in again without my permission, I'll have the police issue her a trespass warning.
Yes. I would also keep a record of absolutely everything. Including the date you change the locks, if that's the road you decide to go down.
(Funny, my IC actually told me a few weeks ago that I could probably wait on changing the locks, since XW "knew" she needed my permission to enter.)
Might be worth discussing the antisocial personality disorder aspect of XH with your IC? See what they have to say, and what their take is.
In my experience there have been IC who absolutely get this and get what the deal is with these kinds of people, and others who just don't understand.
Meditation has always been hard for me. I don't know why. It's just really hard to calm myself - I'm a bit neurotic by nature. Anything "light" you can recommend?
Ah, interesting...the aim of meditation might not be calming yourself? That might just be a by product of it?
Maybe try and think of the aim of meditation as becoming aware of your feelings and physical reactions to them?
Much of the behaviour of people like your XW is about making themselves centre stage, what they want to do is gain your attention and energy. Some of what they do be incredibly subtle. If you're giving them your attention and energy then guess what? That attention and energy isn't being focused on yourself, and you lose your balance, lose yourself in a way.
So meditation is a way of very gently refocusing that energy and attention on yourself. And very gently learning to become aware of when it shifts to something else, and of (non judgementally) bringing it back to yourself.
It's neither difficult nor easy - those are judgements. It just is whatever the experience is, in that moment.
I'm also neurotic by nature and as a result of life experiences. I'm a worrier, a fixer. But I have been absolutely loving this whole process of detachment. It feels like a huge weight of 'responsibility' being lifted from my shoulders. I'm **only** responsible for my behaviour...what an amazing relief.
C'Nut, JujuB, and Focus, thanks for the encouragement on meditation.
C'Nut, the program for that website looks interesting. I see there are several weekly meetings in my town, and I'm going to try to work one into my schedule.
JujuB, if you had to recommend just one app, would it be Calm or Headpace?
Ah, interesting...the aim of meditation might not be calming yourself? That might just be a by product of it?
Maybe try and think of the aim of meditation as becoming aware of your feelings and physical reactions to them?
Good point! Becoming aware of my feelings is a good place to start, if nothing else. I will admit the old me was guilty of stuffing my feelings down in order to get through life.
XW continues to bombard me with messages on familywizard, with about 3/4 of them being either some kind of strongly worded request or calling me out on violating a made up rule. She was going on about being amicable for months, but that's completely flown out the window now. I've learned I have to simply limit the number of times a day I will even look at the messages.
I like calm but you can get free trials for both.
Just politely address anything reasonable and ignore what is inappropriate or button pushing. Eventually she will learn. Dont let instigate.
Hi Holding,
I just caught up on your thread and it sounds like you are doing well and focusing on being a strong, comforting presence for your kids. I can absolutely relate to telling your kids being difficult except that for me it was actually worse than BD. When I told them we had something to tell them, my D asked if we were having another baby. I just wanted to sob!
Unfortunately, I can’t offer much advice on coparenting. X Mr. GB and I get along well and he only has the kids when I go out of town for work (he stays at my house) However, it helps me and things have gotten much better with the passage of time. I do agree with the others that you need to set boundaries and your x needs to respect them. Will she? Probably eventually.
Welcome to the coolest forum on DB :-)
Hey GB, thanks for stopping by and the warm welcome. Boundaries are a work in progress for me. I'm trying but I need to do much better.
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Ok, so I've got a blunt but sincere question for the ladies here: Do you pull "$h1t tests"?
In a lot of my reading, I see these tests described as a universal female trait. I find that hard to believe, but then again I have a history of NGS, so I may be broken in that regard.
I'd love to get feedback on the concept of these tests, how often you've used them, and if it's a conscious effort or something that naturally arises from the situation without you realizing it.
I'm feeling down today and I don't really know why.
Last night XW was at S11's orchestra solo. She asked me if I noticed her shorter haircut. I honestly hadn't until she mentioned it. She looks so different to me. We didn't say much to each other. When she left, she actually told me bye. It was weird, as it was such a different persona from the one I deal with on OFW. All in all, I spent about 30 minutes in her presence. I haven't been around her this long since December.
For the second week in a row, my court appointment to have the final decree signed by the judge has been delayed, because the documents aren't ready (lawyer issues). I'm really getting tired of the delays. I want this over.
Two weeks ago I stood in front of a judge to get a date for the decree to be signed, and the judge told me my D was granted. So I'm in this weird limbo where it's granted but not signed. I feel like I need the decree to be signed for it to be real. I don't know why. Maybe it comes from being detailed oriented.
I'm having a hard time forgiving myself for the M. There are so many "why" questions. Why did I want to be with XW? Why did I ignore the red flags early in our R? Why was I such a pushover? Why did I tolerate a bad M? After BD, why did I still want to save the M? Why did I want to save it after I found out about OM?
I'm still trying to make sense of things, when maybe there's no sense to be made.
I know I need to GAL, keep myself busy, and "work on myself". I meet up with friends a lot, and I've actually made a decent amount of guy friends through my NGS support group.
Maybe just interacting with XW has put me in this funk.
Holding
I am 4 years in March and my D isn't final.
Different sitch but I feel I want the ink dry before I can move on. The G can keep games going until 2 May 2020. What can I do?
At some point you (and V) have to decide done, and that you can move forward.
It's odd but the ex isn't the ex. The G looked liked a spiv not a H or even a WH. A stranger that actually I don't know or would now be interested in.
Some describe their exes as 'ugly' and I just think not someone I know or would ever want to know.
It's interesting that's all.
Yet still my ethics say I am not D, I don't have that paper that says done and dusted.
How to reconcile the commitment given to the stranger that you wouldn't even give a passing glance?
It's confusing.
But I guess I am ready to move forward.
V
Hey GB, thanks for stopping by and the warm welcome. Boundaries are a work in progress for me. I'm trying but I need to do much better.
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Ok, so I've got a blunt but sincere question for the ladies here: Do you pull "$h1t tests"?
In a lot of my reading, I see these tests described as a universal female trait. I find that hard to believe, but then again I have a history of NGS, so I may be broken in that regard.
I'd love to get feedback on the concept of these tests, how often you've used them, and if it's a conscious effort or something that naturally arises from the situation without you realizing it.
Frankly I haven't a clue what you are asking about!
So I guess the answer is ......
WTF
Do guys do that stuff?
You know from this board and as long as you keep posting in surviving that the gals have as much trouble as the guys in dating.
We are the same and different.
V
V, thanks for responding on the "$h1t test" (aka "fitness test") question. It's certainly not something I do, and not something done by men, as far as I can tell. I've been getting feedback that it's not something the majority of women do, so that's good to hear.
Reading the D forum here is good, as I'm getting a lot of female perspective on things (moreso than the Newcomers forum). I'm somewhat cynical about the opposite sex right now, so I'm getting great exposure to the other side of the coin, post-D.
Now my new date to be final is in a week and a half. I hope this one sticks.
Holding - there is a really great Mark Manson post on $hit tests on his website and how to deal with them as a mature and emotionally strong individual. It really helped me understand and differentiate between women doing these tests vs. just being curious and wanting to get to know you. Check his stuff out. His relationship stuff is quite good too.
Guys
This phase is to learn about connection. Games of any kind get in the way of it.
If I am honest prior to the G, my R with the men in my life were fairly bright and breezy. I had many lovely men in my life, aged pa, H1 who died and especially H2 who is more a friend than a lover.
Getting to meet the opposite sex wasn't difficult IRL. But my dating experience is zero. All my R have started with friendship. So actually I don't know how to date. My one and only OLD contact was really gross. I have a gf who tells me that at least 50% of the guys send her pictures of parts of their anatomy. And my glam sis says only one in ten guys are even polite.
You are therefore great potential dates and you can be sure there will be lots of choice, even though as I understand the guys out numbered the girls.
Go to a target rich environment, dancing, meetups etc. Go where the lively normal peeps go. Smile and talk. Make it clear you are looking for a date, get a number. Give yourself a choice so you aren't invested. And it's dating, hooking up and having fun.
V
M, thanks for pointing me to Mark Manson. I read the post you mentioned, and its message really spoke to me - if you allow yourself to be vulnerable but have really strong boundaries, the $h1t tests are nothing to be concerned with. I like that.
V, you're right. Games will not get us anywhere. I think honestly and being myself are the best approaches.
About OLD, I haven't gotten into that yet, and I'm really not sure if I ever will. I have heard that guys outnumber girls by a huge margin. On the other hand, LH19 recently posted in J9's thread that in real life, eligible guys in middle age have a much larger pool of women to choose from that their female peers.
V, you mention how all your R's have started as friendship. But then you recommended that I go to a "target rich environment" and make it clear I'm looking for a date. Are these 2 things not at odds with each other?
Not at all in conflict. If you go to a target rich environment, chat to lots of targets, get friendly with those you like, ask them for coffee. Be a friend first and then move to building a network.
We are not talking here about singling someone from the crowd, Ie going on the pull. The target rich environment could be a book lovers meetup group, a cooking class, dancing classes.....
Somewhere women go to socialise and you can socialise too. Try hiking....... there are meetups for all sorts of things, food, activities, learning, exercise,
So a male drink bar won't do it.
V
Holding
I just met someone through OLD that i have been dating for 6 months. He was actually the first OLD date i went on. I really read through the profiles though. I only responded to him because he wrote a lot, and was very clear that he was looking for a traditional and long term relationship.
As a single mom, I dont know how i would have actually had time to meet someone elsewhile. With OLD, at least you know the posters are looking for dating. It makes it easier because you are all there with the same goal. Easy way to cut to the chase.
V and JuJuB, thanks for the feedback.
When in your opinion is it too soon to date? I've gotten feedback that's all over the place. Some say wait at least a year to "work on yourself". I feel like this is BS since I've been working on myself since BD last April. Others tell me I should get out there now and just see what happens.
Holding
With OLD, at least you know the posters are looking for dating. It makes it easier because you are all there with the same goal. Easy way to cut to the chase.
Oh if only that were the truth. You were somehow lucky enough to hit it off with the very first person you met. Had you actually have done OLD like many of us you'd have soon found that many there ARE NOT there to date. Some are scammers, many don't know what they want. Some will never meet - simply texting forever. Some, including a few from this forum, have created profiles, talked with people only to abruptly delete their profile because they were really not ready. There are people still very much married but not happy. There are those doing in house separation and looking. There are those who only want a one night hook up - not to date. If only everyone OLD were there with pure intentions.
My goal is not to contradict you Juju but just fair warning to everyone reading, while SOME people are there to meet someone, at least as many are not ready.
Which brings me to when is the right time? Sadly so many sign up only to find out they are not ready - and the rest of the OLD'rs pay the price. Don't do that to someone Holding. There is no reason to rush. I'm more of the wait six months to a year camp but more than anything think through what you will do if you get responses. Are you really ready to date or are you pushing yourself to be ready? Really think about this before you go online.
Holding
The answer I think is just before you are ready.
It's dating FFS. It's not looking for the love of your life. It is possibly meeting up, having coffee and just the odd meal or two.
If there is no chemistry, that is it, next date.
For me it has been 4 years since BD, and only 6 months since D. I won't wait a year.
I left it too long and yet not long enough.
I now have three dates lined up, just through chatting and flirting. It's just coffee and lunch, see what clicks.
I am not looking for the great next love of my life, I want friendship and some male companionship for now.
Must say OLD is very OLD with me, I prefer to see and chat to my date. One of the advantages of OLD is age appropriate is known. Although guys in their 60s on old are looking for 40 odd year old women.
I have to say all my dates are younger and one is much younger than me. We will see how it goes. I guess I present better IRL than before
Here is a text exchange
It was lovely to meet you hopever you are having a great time
V: Thank you yes, it's cold tonight though
Thank you for explaining the history part
J: just caught the train, are you on your way home?
V: yes staying with my friend, I am the driver as she is merry !
J: I love the history art travel and of course holidays.....
I looked the gym up on the Internet, looks good, would love to go if you would invite me. I am free Sunday for swimming and coffee!
Chat, brief chat
This morning
J: Hi hun hope you are ok.......
Next Sunday ok for you and swimming?
I have to say all my dates are younger and one is much younger than me. We will see how it goes. I guess I present better IRL than before
Vanilla, that was my experience too! All but ONE of my dates after my divorce ended up being younger than me (the first guy I dated was 2 years older). Some were actually WAY too young but we still had fun and remain friends.
As for the original question of when is too soon to date - it's too soon to date if you would go back to your ex if they turned up on your doorstep tomorrow all apologetic. You need to be sure you are DONE as otherwise it's not fair to the new person.
That being said, when someone reaches this point is highly variable and a lot depends on what has gone on before. I started dating just 3 months after my ex moved out - BUT - I had successfully DB'd him several years before, we had reconciled and had several good years, then he went off the deep end again and I realized that there was NO WAY I would ever trust him again after a third infidelity. I knew that I would never take him back again and I had plenty of peace in my heart that I had done everything possible for our marriage over the years.
I don't regret it - in fact, the new guy I dated was really healing for me and I still have great fondness for him. (We broke up after a year because his childhood sweetheart, the love of his life, came back into the picture - since they are still together 8 years later I really can't be mad at him for that. We are still good friends.)
like you said, for every person that answers you will have a different answer, all over the spectrum.
As for me, I kept being told here that I wasn't ready to date, as kml said, there was no chance I was going back to ex, so I kept saying I was ready.
Then I started OLD, had somehow created this image of meeting someone I would really be attracted to and click with. What a disappointment that was.
Anyway, as the days went by, I realized that I wasn't ready to date. But the reason I wasn't ready to date was not because I wasn't over my ex, it was because I wasn't living the life I wanted. My GAL was great, I had met a lot of people and do/did a lot of activities with them, but I didn't have the type of friends you could just call to go hang out with. I wanted to have the life I want before I try bringing someone into it.
Anyway, I don't want to dissuade you from OLD if you want to try it, go for it... Just know that if it's as frustrating for you as it was for me, it is not indicative of meeting someone in general.
In only about 1 1/2 months since, I have two girls that have made it well known they would like to date me (but I don't feel that towards them), one girl that I want to get to know that I believe feels the same, and another girl that I'm attracted to but is way to young for me.. and some other guys that are cool. We are all having fun, no pressure, we text, chat, and go to planned outings and occasionally to dinner or bar last minute.
Now I have my own life and feel secure that I can date without being co-dependent.
Don, V, kml, and C'Nut, thanks for the thoughtful responses on OLD. This gave me a lot to think about.
There is no way I'd ever take XW back. If she appeared as a crying heap on my porch, she'd get my pity and disgust. My trust in her is completely gone. The cruelty and manipulation has been unbearable. Just this morning when dropping off S11, she called me an @sshole right in front of him. That bridge has been burned and reduced to dust.
Yesterday I met up with a friend who's going through a D (I've tried to steer him to this site). He told me he was doing OLD and went on a date with someone he met. (Not something I would do personally until D, but anyway...) He had a great time, but he realized he couldn't go any farther because he might ruin his chances of saving his M. This got me thinking too.
Last night I created a Tinder profile and entered the world of OLD.
I know I'm not ready for anything serious. But I want to be able to go on a date. I want to meet an attractive woman and have a conversation. I want physical affection. I have to take a step into my new world, and this is the step I'm taking.
Good luck man, conversation was the biggest issue I had with OLD, there was only one person I met OLD that I had a good conversation with. It seemed the better looking they were, the worse the conversation was, and no I'm not saying that "hot" woman can't converse. I think it's probably a by-product of how many messages they get that they feel like they can't take the time to really get to know one person. Or maybe they just couldn't take the time to get to know me, who knows.
I will say that I preferred POF to most of the other sites I tried. It seemed like most of the people were on all the sites, but I liked the functionality of that site the best. But I guess it depends on what you're looking for, Tinder is based solely on looks (i.e. hookup app), so probably the best chance to find the physical affection the fastest.
There is also an app called coffee meets bagel, that one has a lot of built in delays, only showing a few people per day, so I felt like it would give a better chance of getting to know someone without having too many options at once.
Holding have you tried IRL too.
I am no expert on this at all, but consider a dating coach. I have set myself the target of chatting to two guys a day IRL.
Just chatting to strangers on general stuff and then some practice dates with some lovely men who I would like as friends as much as anything. No expectation.
If there are 6m peeps on dating web sites, they must be wandering around everywhere.
V
I have set myself the target of chatting to two guys a day IRL.
V
Thank you for posting this.. So simple, yet something I hadn't of thought to challenge my self with.
V that's a brilliant idea.
I was married for 24 years and basically never looked at another man during that time. Perhaps it was a lack of imagination, but I was busy rearing kids and loved my husband, so I never even flirted.
Back when me ex had his affair and I was DBing the marriage back together the first time, one 180 for me was to lighten up a little, be less serious. I don't know what the different vibe I was giving off was about, but suddenly the world was full of men flirting with me. Maybe I just finally opened my eyes to see it. Or maybe I carried myself with more of a sense of possibility, I don't know. Men joked with me in the grocery store line, young men tried to invite me to their house parties as I walked by on the street. I thought, "wow, why wasn't it like this when I was young and single?". But I can see now that I was projecting a more approachable, less defensive, more fun version of me than in my twenties.
One thing I've learned in midlife dating- confidence is sexy. Dress in what makes you feel good, be friendly and outgoing (even if you're an introvert like me). I'm now much more likely to chat with a stranger in the Starbucks line and you never know who you might meet.
Hey, DB Land!
It's been a while, but I think I'm ready to come back.
I've been busy getting my life in order (paying off debt, fixing stuff around the house, refinancing my mortgage). I've continued meeting with my NGS support group, who've really taught me a lot about myself.
Another thing I've been dealing with is evicting my XW from my head. These aren't thoughts of wanting her back, but thoughts that I'm still playing this game of one-upmanship that developed during the D process. And I'm dealing with my frustration and anger that XW doesn't respect my boundaries and the terms of our decree (dropping off the kids at the proper time, consulting me on important decisions, etc.).
My IC told me I needed to find a way to let XW go, to give her back to God. So about a month ago I passed by the church where we were married (which is in another state). I lit candles for myself, my two boys, and my XW. I told God I'd done the best I could, I tried to save my M, and it just wasn't enough. I asked for all 4 of us to find some peace and move on from this pain. It's helped a little.
The roller coaster ride is not over yet, and the occasional trigger hits me like a knife to the side, a quick jab that goes in and out.
I was heavily into online dating for a while, and I had some choice experiences that made me realize, while I do enjoy dating and know I want a relationship, I'm not ready for super serious stuff right now. Meeting people's kids was too much for me. I've also learned I'm not built for hookups. I think I hurt someone in the process, and I'm not proud of that.
I got off the dating sites for a while, but now I'm back on, with more purpose and higher standards. I'm taking my time. I'm not in a rush. For a while I was setting myself a goal of a date a week, and I did meet that goal, but I ended up with a lot of people who weren't really my type. I suppose the upside is that I'm re-learning what my type is. The scary thing is that MANY aspects of my type are traits of XW (well, the positive traits she used to have).
I noticed (again) XW's dating profile on one of the sites, and she had a recent picture of herself and my two sons on there. (I don't have pics of my sons on my profile. I don't think it's appropriate.) I felt jealous and possessive - those are MY BOYS. I felt like she was using them to pimp herself out. Then I thought about another man looking at that pic, seeing my boys, meeting them, possibly becoming a part of their lives. I AM NOT READY FOR THAT.
Life moves on.
Thanks for listening.
I agree with you 100 percent. Its inappropriate to put the pics of your young sons up. That is something i would take very seriously and ask her to remove. Single women with young kids are a target of pedophiles. Have her cross put their faces if she wants to use that pic. It is very reasonable for you to request that.
I especially hated it when guys put pics up of kids that werent even theirs. I always wonder if the mothers of those kids actually gave pernission for their kids pics to be up on a public dating site. Although less chance for female pedophiles i guess.
Hi H....welcome back! My old experience has not been good either so I like your idea of raising you ur standards. I think I might have met someone this time though that my have a future. I would suggest chatting with them longer to see if it is even worth meeting them.
H, Been awhile since we've heard from you! Just dropping in to say hi! Good job on raising your standards by the way!! You have a second chance, don't settle!!
I agree with you 100 percent. Its inappropriate to put the pics of your young sons up. That is something i would take very seriously and ask her to remove. Single women with young kids are a target of pedophiles. Have her cross put their faces if she wants to use that pic. It is very reasonable for you to request that.
I especially hated it when guys put pics up of kids that werent even theirs. I always wonder if the mothers of those kids actually gave pernission for their kids pics to be up on a public dating site. Although less chance for female pedophiles i guess.
JujuB, the thing with the pic is, it only shows a profile of each of my boys, as they're both kissing her on the cheek. So I guess it's not a real clear pic of them and maybe I can't justifiably ask her to remove it. But it still bugs me.
Hi H....welcome back! My old experience has not been good either so I like your idea of raising you ur standards. I think I might have met someone this time though that my have a future. I would suggest chatting with them longer to see if it is even worth meeting them.
Hey, J9! I was reading your thread a while ago, and I saw your XW had apparently been seeing someone you didn't know about. Sorry to hear about that.
How long do you recommend chatting? I usually go about a week and then ask to meet at that point. I'm reluctant to chat too much, as you can build a rapport with a person online and have it totally fizzle in person.
H, Been awhile since we've heard from you! Just dropping in to say hi! Good job on raising your standards by the way!! You have a second chance, don't settle!!
Dusty, my man! Good to hear from you! We were always on parallel paths. I don't intend to settle, not again, and my OLD experience has solidified that. If anything, I'm starting to come to terms with the possibility of "forever alone".
I noticed your new thread in the D forum too - is your XW still trying to shift the blame to you?
H.....I agree I have not been a chatter and every girl so far I have tried to meet ASAP so I could cut to the chase and find out if there is attraction. Usually I have sent about 4 messages back and forth then suggested we meet. I have had 5 dates in a couple of months and they all have not worked out.
The girl I am currently talking to we have been chatting for a week.........partially because she was on vacation last week. This is more than I ever wanted to but it just kind of happened so we have a date set for tomorrow so we shall see if we have the chemistry.
The one thing I do no is it can get expensive so I would keep it to coffee if you can for the first meeting. It will save your bankroll. I have not been good at this!
H.....I agree I have not been a chatter and every girl so far I have tried to meet ASAP so I could cut to the chase and find out if there is attraction. Usually I have sent about 4 messages back and forth then suggested we meet. I have had 5 dates in a couple of months and they all have not worked out.
Wow. You move fast! But you know, woman are all different (since they're people too
), and some want to get right to the meeting, while others want to take their time.
The girl I am currently talking to we have been chatting for a week.........partially because she was on vacation last week. This is more than I ever wanted to but it just kind of happened so we have a date set for tomorrow so we shall see if we have the chemistry.
Good luck! I think a week is a good sweet spot for chatting.The thing is, it doesn't have to be 10 messages a day. You don't want to be too available.
The one thing I do no is it can get expensive so I would keep it to coffee if you can for the first meeting. It will save your bankroll. I have not been good at this!
I hear ya! I had one week where I had three dates. My wallet was not happy at the end of that week.
A lot of experts say meet asap. I would say though that since women are emotional creatures you can get them in an semi EA just by texting with them for a week or so before you meet. If the attraction is mutual when you meet then it is a done deal with her because you already have her emotionally hooked.
The downfall is that you run the risk of wasting time texting and/or you kill the attraction by being too available or by running out of things to say. If she is really into you though I don’t think any of it matters. So it depends on the woman.
All women are different. I think enough of a conversation to make sure that each of you is legit.(as opposed to some dude from nigeria) And then a small meet up for coffee, a walk around the park, or a quick cocktail to determine if you want to go on a date is enough...
I have heard from some women they dont like feeling like they need to interview for a date. For me, i dont want to invest time in someone i am not interested in.
JuJuB, do you think a week is too long?
H,
I too went the OLD route but have recently closed my accounts. I met someone out of the blue, went out a few times and realized I wasn't ready. I have continued to GAL!! really like my new direction in life! The ex! no more blaming me that I know of, we haven't talked outside of some lingering financial stuff and the kids. She has actually soften a bit from her hardened shell! Has been more pleasant around me when we did see each other and now when she sends me messages about the kids every time she adds a little more to the conversation like how i'm doing and hope I had a good weekend etc..... We are doing a great job co parenting! We do help each other when we need to.
I think a week is perfect. If you wait too long, its easy for them to get side tracked and ghost. as women tend tonbe bombarded with lots of messages and dates in those sites.
H.....IMO meeting sooner the better. I just gone done chatting with a girl for a week and we met on Thursday........we had great texting convo but wasn’t what I expected when she walked through the door.
I think you meet asap and determine if there is mutual attraction. If not then game over, if there is then IMO you can explore it further. Remember back before OLD people met in bars, or wherever. They saw the person first and then got to know them and wouldn’t even approach someone if they weren’t attracted. OLD kind of puts the cart before the horse so for me I prefer to meet asap.
Bingo! Finally a great fricken date! Cute and her personality was awesome!
Happy to hear it, J9! I'll jump over to your thread for all the juicy details.
Recently, probably within the past month, 2 different people have asked me if I still love my XW.
This question freaks me the F out! Why are they asking me this? What are they seeing that I'm not?
I answer no. I feel no love for her. The only thing I feel toward her now is frustration and anger. I'm still angry that XW broke me so completely as a person and hurt our kids. I know that's a victim mentality, and I certainly don't spend my whole day sitting around thinking that. But I recognize that the emotion is still there.
I do miss my W, who no longer exists. As I've said before, the M was maybe 20% good, 80% bad. I miss that 20%. I deserve better than that, but I still miss that little slice. Now I'm out looking for a whole pie made out of that slice.
Interesting fact: a few months ago, I had to be present in a doctor's office with XW for an appointment for my kids. I was there for about 2 hours. It was very cold and standoff-ish, and we didn't say much to each other.
Should I be detached? A friend who was recently divorced said there's no way detachment is possible for me, especially considering the length of my M. My friend says the thought of XW will probably cause me some distress for quite a while.
H,
It's concerning that you are admitting that your marriage sucked the majority of the time but yet you still miss it. You are basically acknowledging that you don't deserve better.
I understand you were together for a long time but you are about 8 months out you should be pretty detachment by now.
What does Holding want to do with the rest of his life? You need to start doing some serious self care and fall in love with yourself.
Are you exercises get your mind, body and soul everyday?
LH on point with a 2x4!
I think you missed my point. I miss the good part of the M, not the totality of it. I do realize I deserve better, and I'm looking to find something better in my future R(s). Maybe I'm still in the grieving process, letting go of the last feelings I have of the M, such as it was.
For the rest of my life, what do I want? My main goal at this point is to be financially secure (something I never had in my M). I'd like to find someone to have an awesome R with and possibly get M again, though I also accept that may never happen, and I need to be cool with that.
My main goal at this point is to be financially secure (something I never had in my M).
I set out to do this too.
I'm still working on it, but I achieved a huge part of it last year/very early this year when I paid off my mortgage. It felt incredible...mixed between finally feeling totally secure in my own home (something I missed as a child a bit) and managing to set myself - and achieve - a huge goal.
I know how I managed to do this (what work I did), and I'm now concentrating on expanding on this.
What does financial security mean to you? And how are you going to achieve this? In what sort of time frame?
Focus, financial security is a process for me, with stages. I keep refining things, but here's what I have so far:
Stage 1 - Pay off credit cards and car (complete)
Stage 2 - Refinance house (in process) and establish new budget
Stage 3 - Push for raise or new job
Stage 4 - Build up savings account
Stage 5 - Start paying off student loans aggressively, until paid off early
Stage 6 - Start paying off mortgage aggressively, until paid off early
Stage 7 - Fill a pool with gold coins and dive in?
My M was an 18-year ponzi scheme, where we lived paycheck to paycheck, constantly ran up credit card debt, and borrowed money from relatives. We even started out from a horrible position, by putting the cost of the wedding reception on a credit card. I'll never forget the time I had to buy a few gallons of gas with a bag of pennies. We also borrowed money from our kids to pay bills. (Yes, you read that right.) It was shameful and I refuse to ever live that way again. That behavior was all my XW, and I'll admit I did nothing to try to reign her in because I was a wuss. (Wow, writing that out has given me a lot of clarity.)
Focus, that's great that you paid off your mortgage! Congrats! Are there negative tax implications for you now that it's paid off? In the US we get a tax can write-off when we have a mortgage.
I could use some advice in dealing with XW and childcare expenses.
Per decree, there are no shared expenses between me and XW, and no child support payments either way, as we have 50/50 custody. XW actually makes more than me and could have paid me child support, but that was a concession I made during mediation. XW is responsible for all health, dental, and vision costs.
Up to this point we've handled all expenses individually. XW has tried to get me to pay some expenses, and I countered saying I'm not required to do so. However, I clarified that I'll consider splitting an expense if she discusses it with me beforehand. She replied that she does not need my permission to make purchases for the kids. I agreed, but reiterated that if she wants me to split the cost, she should consult with me first.
(Keep in mind XW and I communicate via familywizard. She will happily take a mile when given an inch. She already signed my son up for football without consulting me, put dates on the calendar during weeks that I never agreed to, and when I pointed out that I never agreed, she tried to claim that I had.)
Anyway, XW continues to submit expenses without asking me, and it's devolved to things that cost $8 (a football team t-shirt for my son). It's not the cost I object to, but the principle. I suspect she thinks it makes me look bad on the familywizard when I reject expenses.
Let me point out, I have agreed to split necessary expenses for school, like PE uniforms, school supplies, and laptop fees. She never asked my permission on those, but I stated I would nevertheless pay them because they were non-optional expenses.
One of my goals when dealing with XW is that I ABSOLUTELY need to enforce my boundaries. She has continually ignored my request to be consulted on purchases and events on my time, and I think I need to stick to my guns.
Am I being unreasonable? Shooting myself in the foot? Is this an imaginary line in the sand?
H,
I think it’s a great boundary and just continue to enforce it. W as I stated in the past, I will consider splitting expenses with you in the future as long as you discuss it with me advance. If you can not extend me the courtesy, I will not split the expense with you.
Eventually she will abide by your boundary or will quit asking.
Stay strong my friend!
^^^^^^^ 100% agreed.
My ex and I are supposed to split extra curricular activities 50/50. I am the one who signs her up for everything, but I would never sign her up without running it by him first. She wanted to take a cooking class, so I asked him first. he said he was "broke" (that's a whole other story). At which time, I had the choice either to not sign her up, or to pay for it myself. I chose to pay for it.
H - My X did the same thing with wanting to sign my oldest up for math tutoring that was going to cost $255/mth. I told her I could not afford the extra expense due to the child support I was already paying and a couple of other things that I agree to take on in our D settlement. She came back and told me she would be able to afford it.
If she does not ask your opinion then reject them. Eventually she will learn to ask.
And as for the $8 football team shirt - if it's for playing football, pay half. If it's just a t-shirt that happens to be football themed, then you need to either agree to each buy half his clothes or split all clothes 50:50 (even if it's just $8). Don't let your anger get in the way of being fair.
Update: XW sent me a nonsensical rant about how it was my responsibility to give her my preemptive agreement, since I was supposed to know she was going to pay for these expenses.
Several hours later she sent me a list of upcoming school fees and asked if I would be willing to split them.
Someone pinch me.
(Yes, I agreed.)
H,
We set some limits, under $100 we don't need to discuss, it's on whichever parent the kids are with at the time. Anything over we give each other a heads up and ask each other to split the costs. Between college for S18 and the sports for the other two we have some large financial obligations, so we need to split these evenly. We've done a pretty good job of co-parenting in large part because we are communicating again, much like we did for 19 1/2 of the 20 years of marriage! Stick to your boundaries!! especially on the finances!
My kids are constantly fighting with each other. Last night the youngest was so mad he walked out the house, and I had to follow him down the block and convince him to come back in. My youngest says he hates my oldest and wants to live away from him. He started crying. The emotions of it all, and how the D has just made these problems worse, got to me and I started crying too.
In the past I would say things like "He's your brother, you have to learn to live with him." But now that XW and I are D, I wonder if my kids living separate would be feasible, and might actually be a good thing.
The sitch with my kids fighting seems to have settled for now. They still bicker, but the big conflicts have cooled.
I've refinanced my house and closed on the loan. The house is totally mine, so I've cleared the last real hurdle set forth by the decree. I'm decorating as I see fit. I'm fixing up the gardens. I'm connecting with old friends. Slowly over time, I'm becoming more of my old (pre-M) self. Life is moving from "ok" to "good".
I have a fitness goal that by the end of the year, I'll be able to do 100 push-ups a day, 3 days a week. Right now I'm up to 2 days a week. Getting there!
Dating:
Dating via OLD continues. Last week I met a woman that I REALLY enjoyed meeting. She's 3 years older than me, and I was a little concerned because a lot of women my age tend to look very old. When she walked in the place, it was an instant "wow" moment for me. She did not look her age at all - she was really cute and enthusiastic. It was hands-down the best date I've had since my D, and possibly the best date of my entire life. At the end of the date I paid, and she seemed a little miffed that I beat her to the punch. She joked that I'd have to let her pay the next time. I said I wouldn't argue with that. Then she insisted that we pinky-promise on it, which we did! Now I have another date with her in a few days. Really looking forward to it!
Dealing with XW:
In the past I really didn't say a word to her when I saw her, and she would go out of her way to talk to me, not in a sincere way, but in a "look, I'm talking to you" way. I've decided that I should start being polite in person to her, and now that I'm doing that, she's very sullen.
She's made several bitter comments about how she's paying for x, y, and z, and I reminded her that these purchases were made without agreement from me. S16 has a homecoming, and she took him to buy a jacket and slacks, which cost $450! S16 told me in passing that his grandparents paid for it (I never asked), and then a few days later XW had the nerve to ask me to split the cost. I declined.
A few weeks ago she came to gather some additional stuff from my house, mostly Christmas decorations and old books that belonged to her - maybe 25 boxes and bins in total. She was supposed to retrieve all personal items by a certain date in the decree, but I allowed her some extra time so she could get set up in her new house. I had all her stuff neatly stacked in the garage, but I was concerned she'd try to get additional items or make a scene, so I asked a friend to be present. I knew she'd have help in picking it up, and she showed up with 2 guys I'd never seen before. Well, when she saw my friend, she was not pleased. She introduced herself to my friend, but less than 5 minutes in, she started complaining that I was keeping certain items (keep in mind, I was giving her MANY items that were legally mine by the decree). She was very confrontational and bitter. She made snide comments about me keeping certain things, like "OK. Whatever. I HOPE you have FUN with that!" I ignored her. She tried to take something that was not put aside for her, and she tried to argue with me when I told her that wasn't for her. In front of my friend, she said, "Did you invite your FRIEND over cause you thought I'd try to TAKE something?!" I ignored her again.
I was really flabbergasted by her attitude. At the end I told her "I hope you appreciate the extra items I took out for you". In retrospect I realize I shouldn't have said it. But this really set her off on a monologue: "WHAT extra items have you GIVEN me? I walked away from SO MUCH in this divorce, just to be done! I got SCREWED in mediation. I walked away from EVERYTHING!" Awkward moment, as I realized we may not be talking about "stuff" any more. She noticed my friend looking at his phone, and she turned to him and said "Are you RECORDING me?" "No ma'am" he said.Then she looked at me and bitterly asked "Are YOU happy?" I stood there for a moment, and then calmly said "I guess I am." With that, she walked out the garage and said "Bye Holding. I hope you have a GREAT day!"
So ... things with XW are starting to shift. I always thought I was the one holding on (wink wink) to bitterness and anger, but she's really fuming over her sitch and not at all happy with how things are going. I'm tempted to feel a little bad for her. I told that to my mom who lives out of town, and she said she'd fly in and slap me in the face if I start feeling sorry for XW.
XW's mood and feelings are not my problem any more. I know I have to deal with her until my youngest son graduates high school, but I really want to wash her bitterness and snark from my life. I can't control that, so I'm learning to just ignore it.
Glad to hear from you. Good your kids are getting along better. It´s hard for everybody...
Keep safe
H,
Great job buddy!
She sees that hold on holding is lifted and she has lost all control. This flight is now yours for landing!
Thanks, JJ! I'm happy to see you've been updating your thread in the Newcomers Forum. It's a great perspective on piecing that not many people get to see.
Folks, I need some advice on a scheduling issue with the XW.
XW and I each take turns going to dinner with our sons on Wednesdays. When they're with me, she takes them to dinner on Wednesday, and vice versa. It's in the decree. We've agreed via familywizard to move dinners when they conflict with a school or extracurricular event
For about a month now, XW has had this week's dinner scheduled for Thursday. I think she believed there'd be a school event this week on Wednesday. It turns out that there is no school event, so yesterday XW changed her dinner back to Wednesday - without checking with me. I've already made plans for the week (a date on Thursday night), and this will be an inconvenience for me.
So I asked XW to change it back to Thursday, since it's such short notice, and she is refusing to do so. She tells me it was an oversight, it's not short notice, she has a work event Thursday night, and her parents will be in town and would like to take the boys to dinner on Wednesday. She says the decree specifies that our dinners are Wednesdays, and she asked me if I'll be denying her ability to take them to dinner this week.
Let me add that, to accommodate her special plans, I've approved MANY of her change requests - at least 10, including special dinners and birthday parties with her family.
So this is a boundary issue for me. She changes the plans last minute, without notifying me or even asking if it will work with my schedule. She has zero regard for my time. I would not dream of doing this with her.
I think I have 2 options:
1. Tell her no, sorry, I can't accommodate this time. I'll just deal with whatever fallout may occur (her wrath, legal, etc.).
2. Tell her yes, and from now on we will stick to the decree for Wednesday dinners and no exceptions (except for school events) will be made. I'll still go on my date Thursday night, and my sons are definitely old enough to be on their own for a few hours.
Thoughts?
What happened with the girl you hit it off with?
Quite honestly, I would find a way to take that dinner out of the decree. With kids schedules and activities, a weekly planned dinner is really difficult. I couldn't plan a dinner time or a night for the life of me right now. We shove things down our throat and get moving!
What exactly brought about such an arrangement. Why isn't your night your night and her night her night? Seems like too much intermingling of time to me......
I was kind of wondering the same thing as Ginger. My kids were adults when we D'ed so we didn't have any custody stuff, but the kids were still young enough to be under an actual agreement with XH's first XW when he and I married and though she's a crazy psycho, they still didn't have anything that structured set up in theirs. Seems like too much overlap and kind of intrusive, not to mention it will get harder as the kids get older and are involved in more activities.
What happened with the girl you hit it off with?
Oh, that girl...
Well, the second date never happened. I had been trying to play it cool and not text too much. Frankly I was sitting on my hands all week. Maybe I went too far, as it had been several days since the last text. On the morning of the date, I texted "see you tonight!".
She came back with something along the lines of "we haven't talked, and I have plans to get a facial, I wasn't going to sit at home alone". So I was thinking she's got some kind of image of herself as someone who's too good to be at home, and maybe also expects me to do all the work in terms of carrying on the R. I took a break for 2 days, and really considered sending a goodbye text, but a friend in my NGS group convinced me not to give up so easily since the chemistry was so good.
I reached out to her over the weekend via text and said I thought we had a great in-person chemistry, and I'd like to see her again. I could see how maybe we had different concepts of what a commitment entails, and I'd make sure we had firm plans.
She responded saying she agreed we had good in-person chemistry, but she needed more text interaction in her Rs, since that's what keeps the R going between the face-to-face times. I said I'd be happy to text more, and reciprocation is important to me since I don't want either of us to do all the lifting. She responded "Exactly!" We agreed on a time next Sunday for our next date.
But since then, I texted her Sunday night and Monday night, and she hasn't responded to my texts. It's starting to feel like she wants me to do all the work, and maybe she's expecting these "Good Morning, beautiful!" texts from me, which ain't gonna happen if she can't respond to a simple question. A few friends have said she sounds like a narcissist, and believe me, I've had enough of that for the last 20 years.
I don't know. I don't think it should be this complicated in the beginning. I'm giving it a few days. The ball's in her court now.
Next up, back to the XW...
Quite honestly, I would find a way to take that dinner out of the decree. With kids schedules and activities, a weekly planned dinner is really difficult. I couldn't plan a dinner time or a night for the life of me right now. We shove things down our throat and get moving!
What exactly brought about such an arrangement. Why isn't your night your night and her night her night? Seems like too much intermingling of time to me......
The Wednesday dinner is becoming a pain, but it's a way to not go so long without seeing the kids, since we have alternating 7-day custody. This was something we agreed to at mediation. I was pushing for 7-day alternating since it would be less moving around for the kids, and she wanted some weird deal with 2 days hers, 2 days mine, and alternating weekends. I think the dinner was part of the compromise.
I was kind of wondering the same thing as Ginger. My kids were adults when we D'ed so we didn't have any custody stuff, but the kids were still young enough to be under an actual agreement with XH's first XW when he and I married and though she's a crazy psycho, they still didn't have anything that structured set up in theirs. Seems like too much overlap and kind of intrusive, not to mention it will get harder as the kids get older and are involved in more activities.
You're right, it is getting more complicated (especially since XW is keen to sign them up for school activities without my agreement). I have a feeling we'll be heading back to court in a year or two. Maybe we can address it then.
So does anyone have advice on how I can handle the current sitch?
I'm thinking of offering 2 options and letting XW decide:
1. She accepts Thursday dinner as that's what's been on the calendar for 3 weeks. If she can't go, maybe her parents can take them since they're in town.
2. Otherwise, we follow the strict wording of the decree. Dinners are always on Wednesdays, and if there's a school event or other scheduling conflict, the parent not in possession simply loses out.
Well H that stinks......she has your number as well and could have easily texted you also. Sounds like a pretty lame excuse to me.
Yeah, J9. It's a 2-way street, and she never reached out to me. Seems a bit self centered.
But it's still a plus for me. I'm starting to really feel things for people and have legitimately good dates, that are better than anything I had before my M.
In my experience the key is to figure out what they are looking for. Some just want to hook up, others just want some attention, and others are actually looking for a relationship. In my opinion if you click, have chemistry, the feelings are mutual, and your both on the same time table/looking for the same things it is pretty hard to mess those situations up.
I had a really good couple of dates about 1.5 months ago with the same girl and we felt and clicked instantly. It didn't work out which is cool but at minimum it helped me believe that finding someone is definitely possible.
In my experience the key is to figure out what they are looking for. Some just want to hook up, others just want some attention, and others are actually looking for a relationship. In my opinion if you click, have chemistry, the feelings are mutual, and your both on the same time table/looking for the same things it is pretty hard to mess those situations up.
Honestly, I'm just starting to figure out what it is that *I* want. I've known I wanted something, and now it's coming into view. Maybe that's why I'm starting to have these dates where I actually feel something. I still get put off by people who say in their profiles they're looking to marry. How intimidating is that?
...
On the issue of scheduling Wednesday dinner, I allowed it this one time, since in times where we can't come to an agreement, the decree should be our guide (and the decree says Wednesday). For the future I asked XW to give me 7 days' notice for changes to dinner. She responded by thanking me, telling me she'll be sure we stick to the decree (yeah right), and then she proceeded to chide me for not responding soon enough to her messages (I respond within a day), not keeping the calendar up to date (not sure where that comes from), and being a generally poor co-parent. I didn't respond.
...
Last night I saw XMIL and XFIL at my son's orchestra concert. I haven't seen them in a year. I went up and told them hi. XFIL smiled at me and shook my hand. I turned to XMIL and got a weird vibe from her, so I shook her hand. This was a woman who I always hugged and kissed. That was SO WEIRD. To be expected I suppose.
Also, I've noticed XW has a new tattoo on her wrist. It's a semicolon, which is a symbol for those who've overcome suicide. I feel bad for my kids if they ever look up what that means - S16 may already have. I get that she wants to play the victim (so amusing since she caused all this), but why would anyone want to voluntarily wear a scarlet letter? And what guy is going to see that tattoo and decide to get involved with a bag of cats?
H,
I spit my water out. "Bag of cats"....... There's always that one person.
Update on the girl I really hit it off with and who subsequently went silent. Let's call her "LG".
Wednesday night of last week, LG sent me a text out of the blue, saying her phone was acting up and this was a test to see if I was getting her texts. She sent me a screenshot of her messaging app to show me the "failed to send" messages she was getting. I was a little skeptical (trust issues, anyone?), but I went with it, and we continued texting over the next few days. She was responsive to all my texts, but she didn't do much initiating. We re-confirmed our Sunday date, which happened yesterday.
Just like the last date, the chemistry on this date was great! Lots of eye contact, with her touching my leg repeatedly while talking to me, and overall easy conversation. About halfway through, she told me since she was an Aggie, it was a Texas A&M tradition to get a kiss when your home team scored a goal. There was a game on and they had just scored. I told her I definitely wouldn't want her to be a rulebreaker, so I gave her a kiss. This happened about 3 more times throughout the date! The date lasted 3 hours, and at the end we agreed we'd get together for lunch over the next week.
So I'm pretty optimistic about where this is going. It is hard for me to continue playing the OLD game while this is happening with LG. But I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket.
At some point I'm going to have to tell my kids I'm dating. I know S16 saw Match open on my computer a few months ago, so he might suspect something. But it's telling S12 that I'm concerned about. I know I need to wait until I become serious with someone before I bring it up with my kids. Anyone have advice on this?
Good for you H....it sounds like it went really well!! Your kids are old enough to know especially if they are already suspecting. Mine are young so have not told them anything and probably won't until I meet someone that they will get introduced to.
Update on LG: Since the last date I mentioned, I've had to initiate every text interaction with her. Then after a few days of not hearing anything, I texted her again last night, and she said she "got back together" with someone from a few years ago.
So I wished her well, thanked her for the great dates, and said I hoped she finds what she's looking for. She came back with "You're good looking and great company. Please consider me a friend and reach out whenever you want". Um, nope. Starting to wonder if I'm giving off some kind of "friendzone" vibe.
I've got a date with someone else this week, as thankfully I haven't been keeping all my eggs in one basket. But I will say, OLD is starting to get old.
I had an interesting session with my IC last week. I was talking about the changes I've made in myself, and she said I'm still feeling shame from my D, as well as feeling inadequate and not good enough. I said my D made me realize I had to make changes, and if I'd made them sooner, I could have possibly saved my M. She told me I should be more accepting of myself and feel proud for the effort I put in at the end of my M to try to save things. Food for thought.
And before anyone backs up the lumber truck, my time since the D has made me see all the faults in my M and given me a clearer picture of the person XW really is. This genie could never go back in that bottle.
Sorry H that [censored]...I don't think so, IMO that is her way of being nice and trying to let you down easy. As LH would say...keep on keeping on. I never reach out to anyone OL any more......if a girl likes you she will initiate.
Sorry to hear about LG - I guess that's the way the dating world goes. Well, move on to the next.
I don't know why you're expecting 2x4s. I wholeheartedly agree with what your IC said. You have to get rid of your shame and guilt. Exercise more self-compassion for yourself. You don't really know if you had made those changes earlier that it would've saved your M. Playing the 'what if' game is a dead-end. There is never going to be a satisfactory answer to that.
I excavate my past just to understand my failures and learn how to be better. I have been able to reach a stage where I don't have any emotions associated with looking back. I accepted that I was who I was, but now I am not that person. And I am practicing trying to be happy with myself today, but knowing that I could do a little bit better tomorrow. Be happy with where you are today. You are amazing and great where you are today. But you could do a little bit better tomorrow.
I think you're doing amazing compared to where things were. Keep your chin up!
H - I would just add that you should not feel bad. To me it is more of a reflection on your spouse that she was not willing to hold true to your vows. We all could have done things differently (woulda, coulda, shoulda) but IMO unless there is physical harm, abuse, some real hard reasons doing something like this because your in a bad spot, maybe lost some of your mojo, or whatever is pretty crappy reason. When I reflect back on my MR it makes me wonder how my XW would behave if I was bed ridden or gravely ill. Would should she have left me? Is that the type of person I want in my foxhole? No Fing way so never, ever feel that your a failure. Screw that.
I have absolutely no respect for my XW. My daughter had a soccer game yesterday at noon and my XW didn't even make it. She was fully aware and for whatever reason made the choice, as I know she was with her BF, by the way she answered a question when we were coordinating getting my oldest daughter to a birthday party.
You will find someone, some day that will blow your XW out of the water.
Sorry to hear about LG - I guess that's the way the dating world goes. Well, move on to the next.
I don't know why you're expecting 2x4s. I wholeheartedly agree with what your IC said. You have to get rid of your shame and guilt. Exercise more self-compassion for yourself. You don't really know if you had made those changes earlier that it would've saved your M. Playing the 'what if' game is a dead-end. There is never going to be a satisfactory answer to that.
I excavate my past just to understand my failures and learn how to be better. I have been able to reach a stage where I don't have any emotions associated with looking back. I accepted that I was who I was, but now I am not that person. And I am practicing trying to be happy with myself today, but knowing that I could do a little bit better tomorrow. Be happy with where you are today. You are amazing and great where you are today. But you could do a little bit better tomorrow.
I think you're doing amazing compared to where things were. Keep your chin up!
Love all of this!
Thanks for the support J9, M, and Focus!
I don't know why you're expecting 2x4s.
Mainly because I was mentioning how I'd wanted to save my M. I know we all did - that's why we're here. But I've gotten my fair share of 2x4s about fighting for the M way past the point of it being a smart thing to do, or even hoping for recon post-D. I just wanted to clarify that time continues to give me a new perspective on things, and the toxic parts of the M have become clear.
I wholeheartedly agree with what your IC said. You have to get rid of your shame and guilt. Exercise more self-compassion for yourself. You don't really know if you had made those changes earlier that it would've saved your M. Playing the 'what if' game is a dead-end. There is never going to be a satisfactory answer to that.
I'm working on it. I know the "what if" game is pointless. She simply wanted out. The end.
I think you're doing amazing compared to where things were. Keep your chin up!
Thanks!
I have absolutely no respect for my XW. My daughter had a soccer game yesterday at noon and my XW didn't even make it.
I sympathize. My XW's chronic lateness is something my kids have had to deal with. There's a lot of sitting around and waiting for them when it's her turn to take them to dinner. S12 has spent an hour looking over his shoulder at a football game, wondering where his mom is.
I think on some level I need to respect XW as my kids' mother, and my IC constantly encourages me to think of her that way. She says I need to forget about XW as the person she used to be, and even who she became during the D, and think of her solely as the half-time guardian of my kids. It's super hard, as XW has little respect for me and my time, and is constantly trying to pick fights.
You will find someone, some day that will blow your XW out of the water.
Here's hoping! (though it is a low bar)
I respect her as their mother but that is about as far as it goes. She is in her own world and I really have no idea who she is any more. You will find someone just be patient with yourself. I just had some 33 yr old hit me up
just have fun with no expectations. As G says......they are all guilty until proven otherwise.
Time and patience Holding, time and patience...
It gets better
Sending you a hug
(((H)))
I sympathize. My XW's chronic lateness is something my kids have had to deal with. There's a lot of sitting around and waiting for them when it's her turn to take them to dinner. S12 has spent an hour looking over his shoulder at a football game, wondering where his mom is.
H, Even though I don't really post here much anymore I do try to keep up with the people like you that went through it during the same time. I am dealing with this exact thing right now, a little different as the activities she does show up for she is on time! lol My S14 mentioned to me the other day that mom misses all my games, does she even care what I do anymore?? I felt bad for him as I saw how disappointed he was, I told that him I'm there to watch along with grandma and grandpa and I will always be there for him! I also said to him that if he wants his mom to go then talk to her, his response was...... I don't care about her anymore so I don't need to talk to her! And then I didn't know how to respond to that.
So, reassure your S12 that you will always be there and encourage him to talk to his mom if he wants her there. Focus on you always being there, I know it may not feel like it from time to time but the kids will know who put in the work for them! You're doing a great job!! Have a great weekend
Belated thanks to J9, Neffer, and Dusty for the replies!
Last night I had a second date. Let's call her SG. The second date is rare from my OLD experience - this is the fourth time out of 17 it's happened. Though I feel like I had to do a fair amount of pursuit and initiation to get to this second date with SG. Maybe she's shy. And she's new at this. (Or maybe I'm making excuses
)
SG's an introvert like me. She also described herself as a little nerdy, and I just think it's the cutest thing ever! I thought about kissing her during the date (kept looking at her mouth), but I guess I'm not that good at making "the move", so I waited till the end. It was a nice kiss, very relaxed. I can't recall a single date I've been on where there was a kiss on the first date. A lot of guy friends tell me I need to be more proactive on that. Not sure about that, since my IC told me I should be more accepting of who I really am. Then again, I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Anyway, here's the catch with SG. Her D is not yet final - this is usually a hard stop for me. She's separated, the marital home has been sold, and she was supposed to be done about a month ago, but there's been a delay with the paperwork. I understand what that's like - I actually started going on dates a few weeks before the decree was signed, but in my case the D had already been "granted" by the court. So wondering if I'm being a hypocrite here, or trying to justify why this might not work so I can spare myself some pain down the line, taking the easy way out, etc....
I've had women treat me like a hot potato when I mentioned how recent my D was. I wonder if there's any wisdom in that. Looking back, I do know that the for the first few dates I went on, the experience of going on the date was its own reward, and I've slowly come to have my feelings unlocked and find myself actually ready for something real now. I'm more aware of the other person's feelings and how there's a potential for pain and loss for both of us.
I know we all move at different speeds in terms of dealing with D and being ready for something. An important part I think is the introspection and self-examination.
No real question here. Just putting some ramblings down on paper and mulling things over.
Her divorce is as good as done - I wouldn't let that stop you.
The important thing is less about the paperwork and more about, is she DONE?
In my case my ex cheated, I DBd and we reconciled, had several good years until he left in a blaze of MLC glory. When he filed I was DONE, there was no way I would have taken him back again and I had peace in my heart that I had done everything possible for my marriage.
My divorce took two years to be finalized but I began dating soon after he left. I was confident I didn't want him back under any circumstances and so was emotionally available for a new relationship. However, I had been dealing with my marriage problems for over 8 years at that point.
The big questions are not when her divorce is final but how long have they been separated and does she have residual feelings for him?
I agree with K......I think it's all about her attitude and if she is done not when the D is final.
Need advice on SG. 4 out of 5 times I have to reach out to her, so I've decided to let it go a while and see if she reaches out to me. Last I heard from her was 5 days ago. Mind you, this is a girl I've been on 2 dates with and we've kissed. I'd expect her to have a little more interest in me at this point. I'm moving on with other prospects, but I'd still like to pursue something with SG. Thoughts?
On another note, XW has been a nightmare. She had a debt she was aware of at mediation, but did not disclose until about a month ago. She then asked me to split the debt, and I refused. So she's gotten a L and is in contact with my L. I know XW is in a bad place (emotionally and financially), but she's no longer my problem. I hope she finds some peace in life, otherwise she'll continue to try to make me the scapegoat for all her problems. I'm actually hoping she finds an OM.
Holding,
I would reach out to her and say "hey XXXX I would like to see you again, when are you free to get together. If she responds with dates, set a date. If she declines you walk and never look back.
Your ex is a piece of work. You are so lucky to have got out of that marriage. Not your circus not your monkeys.