When I first came to these boards many years ago, shell shocked, betrayed and afraid, I never could have envisioned the life that would follow. It's not the life I expected, but it's pretty good! So I'm going to list the things I'm grateful for in the post-divorce life:
My career has flourished. I'm still not making the kind of money I'd like to, but I love my work, and as my alimony ends in a year, I do have avenues to increase my income. My business partner and I are even planning to write a book. Meantime I make enough, and enjoy going to work everyday, and doing good in the world. I'm invited to teach other physicians and involved in an intellectually challenging and exciting new approach to medicine.
My adult kids - they all have some serious struggles but they are good people, and I have an excellent relationship with each of them.
Music - I bought that drum kit when my ex was leaving and never looked back! I've played drums in a band, toured playing vibraphone and snare drum, played vibes on a professional album - a lot of fun stuff for an amateur who didn't start percussion until age 53. And something that never would have happened if my ex hadn't left. Thanks ex!
Friends - I've made new, and better, friends since my ex left. He tended to dominate our social life, and didn't want to spend time with any people who weren't "his type" - which meant that some of the people I was friendly with or would have liked to be friends with fell by the wayside. Now I'm free to choose my friends without judgment from my ex, and I enjoy those people enormously.
My mom - she's 85, lives with me, still works three days a week. If I was still married I never could have been there for my mom in this way since my ex would never have wanted to have her live with us (even though she was never anything but nice to him! ).
My finances - no, they're not what they would be if we were still married, but they're adequate. And I don't have to worry about some impulsive $5000 purchase throwing off my budget! (My ex once went to a private guitar showing and came back with two new acoustic guitars for $5,000 - purchased so he could look like a big man. I wouldn't have minded if he'd bought one or the other - but both blew a hole in our budget. And mind you, this was a guy who occasionally played the same ten mostly Neil Young songs he learned in college, not a serious musician in any way. Plus he already had a couple decent guitars. ). My financial decisions are my own, I live within my means, and make my plans for my future without an erratic spouse.
Dates - although my long- term relationship goals haven't been reached, I've dated and been appreciated by men who have affirmed my essence. I've had some of the best sex of my life. I've been cherished in ways my ex was incapable of. Life is good.
My home - I looked a long time to find my post-divorce house, and I still love it. The floor plan works well for our multigenerational living, and I'm proud to provide a home for my mom and (currently) two of my kids. The location is good and neighborhood quiet. It's not fancy La Jolla but it works for me.
This board - you all were my lifeline through the pain and painful growth, and still a valued sounding board.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Oh - and one more thing to be grateful for, that I'm not married to my total jerk of an ex anymore.
I had to contact him recently (something that I avoid doing as much as possible) because our youngest son is aging off his health insurance. This son is suffering from serious (suicidal) depression and anxiety and has Tourette's syndrome. He's having a particularly rocky time at the moment (as in, was visiting in LA and he and his girlfriend had a dramatic fight in the middle of the night, cops called and he was taken to ER for psych evaluation. I can only imagine what that would have cost without insurance). He's been trying but unable to find steady work.
Anyway, this is the son who isn't speaking to his father. I wrote a nice email about my concerns and how I'd like to COBRA his insurance since I'm so worried about his mental health, and would ex pay half? (Son could qualify for Medicaid but the psychiatric coverage is crappy).
His answer : "I won't be able to pay". (Mind you, won't means won't, not can't. He makes over $300 k per year plus his wife makes probably $60-80k plus benefits)
Seriously - I figured out after my divorce that he was somewhat of a narcissist, but I honestly thought he had been a decent father when they were young. It mystifies me how WASs can become walk away parents too.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving, KML! I've always been appreciative of your knowledge and candor on the boards.
Sounds like you built up quite the life for yourself and it's inspiring! Mehhh- la jolla is over rated. I'm sure your home is lovely!
I hope your son is ok and your ex steps up the plate somehow. Grrrrr.
Enjoy your Friday and have a great weekend.
I've now officially given up all hope of the ex stepping up to the plate - ever. This was the final straw.
Even after the divorce I always tried to put the nicest spin possible on his actions to the kids. Now I have to admit, he's just a bad person, and a bad parent.
Sorry kml
Reading that made me so mad. Its just unexplainable. I think the lowest and most pathetic humans on this earth are the ones that abandon and neglect their kids. I am sorry about your son and hope he is ok.
For those of you who follow Humans of New York on FB, today they had a lovely little video of a woman of a certain age talking about this being her "Do-Over Life" and giving herself the things she didn't get when she was younger. I like that approach. I think for most of us here, there's an opportunity for a "Do-Over Life".
yes. it is ! {{{{{hugs}}}}}
Kml
I want to go and put your xH head up his butt properly and make it go completely where the sun don't shine, so he eats his own brown stuff. With toast.
His vulnerable son needs help and he won't.
I am spitting my words.......
V
Yes, it's unfathomable to me as a parent.
I am sure it's more than unfathomable!
Here is a wet kipper, hide it somewhere to cover up the stench of entitlement.
V
Ok, so this came up on my FB feed and I decided it was just what I needed to get back in shape and lose some of these worry pounds I've gained in the last 3 years. It's called the 1,000 Mile Challenge and the goal is very simple - to walk or run 1,000 miles in 2018. (Kind of like a Nanowrimo for exercise).
I'm no runner but I can walk. It works out to about 20 miles a week. My work is pretty sedentary so the need to crank out 3 miles a day to stay on course with the challenge should be just the movement I need to make up for sitting so much.
If you want to check it out, look for the 1,000 Mile Challenge page on FB.
thx. i'm right there w/ ya sistah xoxoxo
I recommend fitbit and myfitnesspal.
I average 8000 steps a day.
V
I know this time of year is rough for many of us. Holidays that now have to be split, and for many of us, memories of BD. (Why do so many of them BD right before the holidays?).
I've been luckier than most, I suppose. My ex lives in the same city and we alternate - one gets the kids Xmas eve, one Xmas day. My mom lives with me so I have her company when the kids are gone. Wrapping presents does always bring back bad memories of how ex would go to sleep Xmas eve and leave me to wrap presents by myself until one in the morning. But otherwise I've found ways to adjust.
One year, early on, I was going to be alone on Xmas day (mom had gone to visit my sister in another state, and it was my year to do Xmas eve with the kids). But even that year worked out, if unconventionally. I had a second date with a Love Avoidant guy on Xmas day ( he's a bit of a loner and has no kids of his own). It was actually a lovely day and although we didn't date long, we're still friends.
I guess my point is - don't get stuck in your ideas of how the holidays have to be. They change eventually when your kids grow up anyway. So come up with new ways to fill the gaps. Make plans with single friends, or invite yourself to family friends, or take a bubble bath and watch a Hallmark Xmas movie.
I guess my point is - don't get stuck in your ideas of how the holidays have to be.
I spent the 23rd and 24th building a garden bench out of rough cut cedar. On Christmas day, my sons were with me, but they went to be with mommy for lunch.
While my sons were gone, I noticed that I had a huge splinter in one of my fingers; I didn't even know it was there. I had to cut through some of the skin to get to the thorn so I could pull it out. And that's the cool thing about Christmas this year; I had to play doctor with myself. It was a Christmas miracle!
Now I only have to perform six more miracles. Since my standard for miracles is relatively low, I think the other six miracles will happen before the end of the year.
It was a wonderful Christmas!
Lolol! Doodler you crack me up.
As many of you know, after my divorce I dated a string of Love Avoidant men. Then I started dating a guy who seemed relationship oriented, who turned out, after four years together, to have a whole secret life on the side.
The last year that relationship blew up and multiple issues with my kids and mom have left me feeling too drained to have the energy to date. But yesterday I spent the day with one of those Love Avoidant guys I used to date - and it was lovely. We went to the movies (saw The Darkest Hour, the movie about Churchill, which was great. This guy is knowledgeable about film and fun to talk with about books and movies). He cooked me dinner (incredible lobster and salmon with asparagus and mushrooms- delish! ) We talked and laughed and had wonderful sex (what's better than sex with someone who is equally attracted to your body and mind, and tells you so? And who embraces you with all your imperfections?)
And now I'm back in my life and don't have to worry about how to squeeze a new man into my life. I know he'll be perfectly happy not to see me for a month. And that works for me too right now.
Note that this guy is not Love Avoidant because he doesn't care. He's a guy with a soft squishy heart who has had a lot of trauma in the past. I have no doubt that his affection for me is sincere, as is mine for him. But he's a wounded bird who can only offer me this occasional warmth, and having known that from the beginning makes it easy to have no expectations.
Here's to the warmth of loving friendships.
Hey, if it works for you, then I say go for it! Living in the moment enjoying someone's company without pressure could be quite enjoyable.
You get yours, girl!
I know - not much of a headline for Miss Pollyanna Optimist here. But I've just learned something that means 2018 is going to be a terrible struggle with stress beyond imagining.
I've just learned my youngest son - the 26 year old who struggles with depression and anxiety - is smoking heroin.
He doesn't know that I know. I'm trying to figure out my options for treatment before staging an intervention. I know that it's a terrible detox and that relapses in drug addiction are the norm. My heart is broken and I know that it's all on me (as my ex wouldn't even help pay for insurance and I think it would be counterproductive to have him at the intervention).
I know from past experience that Love Avoidant guy is no good in a crisis. And exBF who is in rehab could be helpful but he's going through another mental health crisis himself this weekend. Yes I have good friends and family to help but it's not the same as having a partner to lean on, or even an ex-spouse who's not a narcissist to plan with.
So what was supposed to be a few relaxing days off has turned into a scramble, trying to get information, straighten out his COBRA on his insurance, find out my options for treatment, figure out how to keep this from financially ruining me, and keep a poker face (as I don't want to let him know that I know until I have things in place for an intervention).
And here I was looking forward to a better 2018 after all the shitty events of 2017. No such luck
. Send prayers.
Oh kml, I'm so sorry to read this and I hope you manage to get things lined up to support your son and that he engages in support and treatment.
We are all here to support and help, and I'm sending you my prayers and best wishes.
Xxx
kml,
I am so sorry to come here and read what you are dealing with today. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family, especially your son. I do hope that you can get him into a facility and hopefully get his the help he needs.
(((KML)))
My heart goes out to you and your son. Addiction is a cruel disease. Blue light forums offers a lot of insight but can be very gritty and like any forum the people that post all have different opinions and experiences and goals. (I believe I am allowed to post this as it is not competing with a divorce forum).
You're son is lucky to have a proactive and intelligent fighter on his side. There are success stories and you and your son are in my prayers.
KML I just now happened to see your NYE post. Actually I just caught up with this latest thread - including your guy who you had such a great time with. In many ways I'm like him - different but the same, if that makes sense. I just can't seem to find a partner like you - at least that includes the great sex - many times any sex.
Anyhow, that's all just an aside. it was the post about your son that caught my attention. There is no way you can know the full scope of what you are in for. It's one if those things that people only fully understand after going through it. This epidemic is killing over 100 people in the USA every day - 63,000 in 2016 alone. This is where my passion has landed, following my own struggle with opioids - not heroin but still.ma struggle that finally ended 8 years ago.
I am more than willing to offer my time to you if you'd like it. Sadly getting the person/your son to even agree to treatment is only the first step. So many treatments don't work 90% of the time. Even with costs of $40,000 and more a month they often fail. I don't want to scare you, just offer my help, support or just an ear or sounding board. Ginger knows how to get in touch with me and I think Job does as well. Either have my permission to provide you with my contact info if you would like it. I do public speaking about this as well as maintain a website and social media on it.
My heart goes out to you. You are correct in how this may push you to your core. Feel free to reach out if you would like to.
Thanks so much Don.
Yes I'm well aware of the cost and dismal statistics. It's moot right now as son is refusing inpatient treatment but luckily I had paid to COBRA his father's insurance for him (he just turned 26) and it includes an extra rider that would cover treatment outside of our HMO for mental health. That way if he does reach the point where he's willing and needs inpatient, he could go someplace good.
He's been doing an amateur suboxone taper (long story - his girlfriend who just went through a suboxone taper gave him a few. He didn't taper them as he was expecting to transition straight to suboxone maintenance only to find out our HMO apparently won't give you suboxone maintenance if you smoke pot?? So he had to do a really short taper, last 1/4 dose was yesterday, should be starting to feel bad today. We do have clonidine and other meds to make him comfortable through withdrawal.
My biggest concerns are finding ways to treat his underlying severe depression - he refuses antidepressants and hasn't done well on them in the past. I know his mood will improve once he's been clean for a while but his addict brain tells him he will always be depressed and life will be terrible without drugs. He's also pretty resistant to recovery groups (he went to his first one last night but sounds like he didn't participate much - he feels like he doesn't have things in common with them and his own sober friends are more of a help - again, typical addict thinking that he's "special".)
I'm working hard to get him to eat healthy food and filling him with supplements to help his brain. Once he's through withdrawal I'll get him out exercising. If he can't stay sober after detox I do have a private option to refer him for suboxone maintenance but would have to pay out of pocket for the meds.
kml,
Whack-a-doodle doodler has to mention this; LSD has a pretty good track record of curing addiction. Google "LSD cure addiction."
I just saw this too, ellie. I am so sorry your family is going through this right now. I have seen Suboxone to be pretty successful, and I had a patient who was on a maintainence dose and he said it really was a life saver. He had no other underlying issues, he just became addicted to opioids when he hurt his back on the job.
The underlying issue for your son is depression, and that really is going to need to be managed. Would he consider inpatient treatment to find the right AD's?
I hope you can achieve all as naturally as possible for him. Thankfully, he has you for a mom!
Thanks Doodler - I had looked into Ibogaine (ayahuasca) but there have been cardiac deaths with that. Was not aware of the lsd research but it would certainly be safer. My son is very much a skeptic so might be less suggestible which seems to be an important part of recovery through hallucinogens.
As for his depression, he hasn't done well on antidepressants in the past and has a genotype which is much less likely to respond to a wide array of antidepressants including paxil, celexa , Effexor and tricyclics. It's possible that an antidepressant outside those classes could help but he's resistant because he had a horrible withdrawal syndrome from Effexor. He has a double mutation in the enzyme that converts tryptophan to 5-htp which is the precursor for serotonin so I am giving him 5- htp and high dose methylfolate. Vitamin D, probiotics and an array of other supplements. Once he's feeling physically better I need to get him to exercise.
kml,
I'll swear on a stack of bibles, I was not looking for this; I was doing a little surfing and came across a good video. Go to YouTube and search for "Tim Ferris - My Thoughts on Psychedelic Drugs to Treat Depression." It's a short video and has some good information.
KML I can tell just by what you wrote you are well ahead of the curve when it comes to understanding most of this - well ahead.
Medication assisted treatment is by far the best option we currently have. Buprenorphine (Suboxone) often works very very well - most studies showing 50% one year success. The thing is, a quick taper will nearly always end in relapse. He needs to be on it at least for a year.
Dual diagnosis is often a common component as well. Depression, abuse, trauma all fall in this history. It's likely he has been self medicating his depression. Without addressing the depression he again has greatly reduced chances. Stopping opioids will really increase thus depression.
Some good news, in patient has not been shown superior over outpatient. It really has not. So that's not a deal breaker here. Compared to his quick taper it's hardly a blip.
Clonidine works for many people. If you can get it, Gabapentin and Vistaril are the other two mainstay comfort meds. Together they will help but honestly if he is not going to get treatment I'd rather see him use. I really would. The chance of overdose death skyrockets about 7 to 60 days post detox. If nothing else, drill it into him that if he relapses he will have lost his tolerance and his old dose could kill him. It's scary stuff. Detox without treatment kills many.
I would strongly advise against Krantom. Strongly. It's a ruse. Don't don't. As for lsd I've not heard of using that. Not knowing more I'd also strongly go against that just on common sense but while I have stats and research to back everything else I've said I do not on LSD
it's not uncommon for insurance to refuse to pay for suboxone if he's using other drugs including pot. While there are some legit reasons it's mostly an affront to get out if paying. Many doctors overlook pot for awhile.
What about Vivatrol (naltrexone) injection. Will insurance cover that? It's around $1,500 for a 30'day shot. At this point keeping him alive is job one.
And then a GF who uses. Man what else? He's not alone but he is very very sick and part of this epidemic that is killing people under 50 more than anything else. Drug overdose is now the leading cause of death for under 50.
Again you sound like you are on top of much of this. Feel free to reach out if I can help more.
He has clonidine and vistaril, I have an appointment for him Monday morning at a private clinic that will do Suboxone maintenance. I'll be paying out of pocket but I'd much rather have him on Suboxone maintenance than methadone. I just have to get him through the weekend. He's in a surly stage right now, but keeping to his room.
I very much agree that suboxone is s better option than methadone. That's a personal bias as there is nothing wrong with methadone for some patients. As I'm guessing you know he has to be in moderate withdrawl to even start suboxone. I know he's on it already but the doc may want to be cautious so if he's in some withdrawl on Monday they can induct him right away.
Having said that, it's possible he's too sick for suboxone and may need methadone - especially the accountability that comes with seeing someone everyday for a while. So don't completely write it off if he ends up being in the half group that sub does not help. Hopefully he will be in the group that it works wonders for. I gave seen so many people get their lives back with this medication. He just needs to be on it at least a year - likely more.
He's lucky to have s mother who appears to really get it and is able to help as much as you are. He's very lucky for that! Please let us know how things go over the weekend and on Monday.
He hasn't had any Suboxone since Wednesday, definitely in withdrawal right now. Can't help but think he's pushing for methadone because he thinks he'll get more of a high from it. I'd rather at least start with the Suboxone and see how it goes.
Yes I think he'll need to be on maintenance long enough to fix his depression and get his life together. I know this will be a long haul.
It's far far far easier to go from suboxone onto methadone. Going the other way can be really difficult as it involves a taper of the methadone generally down to 30 mg. if not he'll get some precipitated withdrawl. Some people really struggle gong from methadone to sub. It can be difficult to make that move.
Many addicts struggle to get passed the cravings of being high. While methadone may have him feel "something" it won't last very long - about a week at the most. That's why claims of people "getting high" on either of these meds is pure fallacy. It just does not happen due to tolerance and the very long half life of these meds. But that's why I mentioned about the potential of being too sick for sub. It's in the addict mind but that's extremely hard to break. For most patients they are above the ceiling threshold at about 4 mg of sub, yet their brain tells them they "need more". They will get on 16, 20 or even 24 mg and still think they are in withdrawals or are craving. Physically they are fully saturated but mentally...
One day at a time. It's amazing how it starts out like this but within a few months patients are able to taper down their sub to a moderate level - say 6 to 8 mg. it just takes time - another reason why quick tapers don't work. If he will only believe this can work, it will!
I wanted to mention one more thing, there are many reports of patients with depression that did not respond to SSRI, SNRI and other meds getting relief of their depression while on sub. In fact there has been talk about using sub in chronic depression patients after traditional treatments have failed. It is possible that once on a stable dose he may see his depression lift. The mind is very powerful. If he believes that sub will work for him and even help his depression, it has a better shot at doing both. To what extent you can and factoring in his current state, telling him this may well work and to believe in it may contribute to his success. Hopefully he will trust you if you tell him these things.
Thanks Don. I appreciate your input.
Don - son successfully started on buprenorphine yesterday. But man, was he wound up last night - came downstairs and talked nonstop for two hours! I could barely get a word in edgewise! I know some of it is pent up stuff but it was over the top, I'm going to suggest that today he try just a half a dose. Could this be a side effect?
Glad to hear that he got on Bup. Yes - most certainly this is from the Suboxone. He may have had a hard time sleeping as well. This will not continue. It takes a few days to get his tolerance stable. He may have felt a little bit "high" from the first dose. That again is normal and is a function of his tolerance being so low and being in withdraws. He's going from low or no opioids to a pretty hefty dose, I'm guessing - 8mg to 16mg? He most certainly needs no more than 16 mg per day.
Now the challenge will be to monitor that he is taking it daily, not taking more than prescribed and of course not selling it to go buy something else to try to get high on. These first weeks will be the toughest. He's likely excited that the drug made him feel "something" plus gave him energy. That is 100% most certainly not going to continue. By this weekend he won't feel ANYTHING after he doses. He should feel "normal." Hopefully that will include some relief from his depression as well - it sounds like that may have started.
Watch his dosing as close as you can. To be honest, if you are paying for the medication, it's not at all out of the relm for you to hold and dispense the meds to him daily. Not sure what your dynamic is with him but if you can do that, it will greatly help his chances at recovery. He needs accountability, which then will gradually be reduced.
I'm so glad he got in, got induced and seems to be doing well in the early stages. Let's hope he's one of the 50% this treatment works for!
I wanted to check in and see how your son is doing KML. These first weeks can be a struggle. He should be stabilizing on the medication by now. Hope you'll have time for an update.
Keeping your son in my thoughts and prayers.
Thanks Don. He seems to be stabilizing although the underlying depression is still an issue. He's processing the breakup with the girlfriend much better now. I got him to a meeting Friday at the private clinic that is prescribing his meds and he didn't complain too much, which is a good sign with him. Got him outdoors yesterday and about to go on a hike with him now.
Oh - realized I never updated the fact that his girlfriend broke up with him via text message on his second day on buprenorphine. I'm secretly relieved because their relationship was very volatile, she's been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder,. He was quite upset initially but after a couple of days and extensive reading online about relationships with borderlines he's starting to get some perspective on the experience. And he didn't relapse, so that's good.
(((KML)))
You are an amazing mom. Not all moms could accept this or handle this. My ex MIL is an enabler and denied despite tons of proof. Denial is an easy and tempting way out. Your son is truly blessed to have a mother with your back ground, strength and grit.
I think there are many on here whose ex spouses have problems with addiction. And i kind of felt like its just taken for granted on these boards. Like par for the course. But these addictions, especially the opiates have destroyed so many lives. Im glad its finally getting recognized as an epidemic by society.
Your son is so young. I am glad he has you for an advocate. And I wish for you the greatest success in beating this.
Good to hear that he's doing well - and considering he's less than one week into starting this latest treatment attempt, he really is doing pretty well. Not sure if the GF used as well, I think that was the case and if so, it's best if she is out of the picture.
If bup were going to help his depression, it likely would be showing some signs. That said, perhaps it is? He's not gong to have a full lift and be anwxungky happy. Rather the floor should raise and the deep depressive feelings should lift. If he's out hiking and doing other things, that may be happening.
Perhaps best of all, as long as he is taking the medication, overdose is nearly impossible. That's a win no matter what else happens.
Yes, the girlfriend was using, she went through detox a couple of weeks before him, but is not on maintenance therapy. I hope they stay apart, he seems to be realizing that dealing with someone with a personality disorder like hers is way beyond what he expected. Plus her risk of relapse is high and I wouldn't want him to go down with her. (Or vice versa.)
I took him out hiking, but he was willing to go, he does love being out in nature. (Unfortunately cut short by me slipping on some rocks crossing a stream and whacking my knee - just seems to be bruised, luckily). My challenge is to get him doing more things out of the house. He wouldn't get up early enough to come out to breakfast with the rest of the household yesterday but he did make himself a good omelet while we were gone, so that's a good sign. Getting him to eat is always a challenge.
Praying for strength for you
V
Son is doing ok. Ex BF, not so much. He was living in a nice sober house and had just started a good new construction job when he fell off the wagon again. This was in the middle of when I was dealing with my son. After a brief stint in detox he seemed to be doing ok but went off the deep end again. Was in a nice detox facility that also got him to a psychiatrist who finally prescribed lithium for his dysphoric mania (which seems to be the trigger for his relapses). Unfortunately after only two days on lithium he spun out again.
I was going to spend the day yesterday with an old friend-with-benefits, looking forward to a brief relaxing escape from my troubles. But my 1 1/2 hour drive there was marked by repeated phone calls from ex BF, who had left the detox facility in the middle of the night, returned there, was taken to the hospital, left again. High as a kite . I finally had to turn my phone off. Enjoyed my date but was woken at one a.m. by exBF pounding on my door and demanding I turn over his credit cards (which he gave to me for safe-keeping so he wouldn't spend).
I had to give them to him (big scary manic dude high on meth). I'm done trying to help him. I was managing his finances for him, but it's just too stressful for me to see him make some progress then dig himself into a hole on a bender. Plus I can't have him bringing his crazy to my doorstep.
I had hoped he would be able to get well, and was willing to try to help him with that. But I can't deal with his mania and drug use anymore; I've got too many other problems closer to home to tend to.
(The date was good despite the interruptions. I'm reading a book about the Spanish Flu pandemic, so I read some out loud to him while he cooked a delicious steak dinner. Later in the evening he told me how sexy that was. Gotta love a guy who finds your nerdy side sexy! Too bad this is the Love Avoidant guy who "doesn't do relationships " as he told me soon after we met. Still, right now a once a month date with no strings attached is about all I can handle anyway. And if he's smart, sexy, and a great cook, who am I to complain?)
For my birthday went to see I Feel Pretty, the new Amy Schumer movie. (Plot line - Amy hits here head and wakes up believing she's beautiful. Self confidence brings about great changes)
It's a great movie for anyone who is dating after divorce. And I realize, to a certain extent, that after my divorce I became a more confident dater than I was in my 20's. Even though objectively I was thinner and prettier then, I had much more confidence in myself once I started dating after divorce. I know who I am, I know I'm a badass (how many women learn to play the drums in a punk band in their 50's?), I know I'm smart and interesting, and I know I'm kind and sexy. And when you own who you are, and are comfortable in your own skin, it's true - men are drawn to you.
Hi Ellie,
I have no idea where I've been the past five months, but I just caught up on your thread ... wow. You're dealing with a lot! How are you? How is your son?
xoxoxo {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}
Thanks butterfly. Guess I haven't posted in a while.
Son is stable on Suboxone but still suffering from bad depression. It's a constant worry.
Manic ex-boyfriend snapped out of his manic episode end of January. He was stable and doing well on lithium until about a month ago when he slipped into another month long manic episode. He's finally stabilized inpatient right now (they've added a new med, fingers crossed). I don't feel anything romantic towards him anymore but I do feel sorry for the havoc his bipolar disorder is bringing into his life and try to be a friend.
I've been seeing the friend with benefits about once a month and it's been a nice escape from my troubles but I can see I'm going to have to start dating other people sooner rather than later. I just find myself wanting more attention than he has to give (because he's the only one I'm seeing while he has other long term fwb's that he also sees so he doesn't need as much from me).
And yet, I know that in my current situation, I don't really have the time and energy for a new relationship (much less the work it takes to find someone new.) I reactivated my online dating profile for a minute last night, took one look around and decided I definitely don't have the energy for that right now so I deactivated it again. Maybe in a few months things will calm down enough for that. Right now I'll just practice flirting in line at Starbucks.
Meanwhile I've also been busy with professional stuff (taught at a conference in April, attending a conference in FL at the end of this month) and musically (big gigs coming up in May and July playing vibraphone for my friend and a short East Coast tour in August. ) So really, I guess I should just be thankful for the fwb that I have and realize I haven't got room for more right now.
tell me about the east coast tour
glad son is stable ... i understand the constant worry ... sendinf hugs and prayers xoxoxo
The week of August 10-17 or some such. Don't know all the dates yet, I know we're playing in New York and places north but not sure if we'll end up in Massachusetts . I'll post when I know more.
Happy Mothers Day to all the moms here doing it by themselves, and all the dads here having to be moms too. Our kids are the most important thing and when they're grown they'll appreciate you for being their rock - even if it doesn't seem rhat way right now.
Enjoy your day.
thank you lovely I hope your day was as beautiful as you are and that you spent it with loved ones who appreciate the awesomeness of you! xoxoxo
Thanks bttrfly, hope you had a great day too. Oldest son and I took my mom to zydeco festival yesterday and today he cooked gluten free eggs Benedict for brunch for us
kml, if you're trying to cut and paste, try typing out your post, much more likely it will work. Also, if you don't want to keep posting blanks, before hitting submit, click the "preview Reply" button, then the "Switch to Full Reply Screen", if it shows on the full reply screen it will show when you hit submit.
I don't see a whole lot of discussion here about attachment types - love avoidants, love addicts or anxious attachment, and secure attachment types. I don't think it played a role in my marriage - I'm a secure attachment type according to my best friend, and I believe that's correct. My ex may have been a narcissist but I think he also fell into the secure attachment group.
I only became aware of these types when trying to figure out the guys I dated right after my divorce, many of whom were classic Love Avoidant types. My friend hypothesizes they are over-represented in our age group as they're much more likely to be single.
I've been re reading some of the writings about it this week as the Love Avoidant FWB I've been seeing occasionally seems to have crawled into his cave for a bit. It's almost exactly the same timeline and time of year as last time I dated him: lovely once a month dates for 4 or 5 months, then drifting out of contact. The first time it happened years ago, I just chalked it up to yet another Avoidant who wasn't sufficiently interested in me and moved on to dating exBF who slightly resembled the FWB and seemed much more available for a relationship.
Dang - was able to get the first two paragraphs by breaking them down but it won't post the next. Don't know what the problem is and don't want to retype the whole long post
If you press the "quick-quote" button on a blank posting it comes back to life as a new post.
This time I feel I better understand him. And his pulling away probably is just a reaction against me getting a little too close. Although it's remotely possible that like mt first Love Avoidant boyfriend after my ex left, he's giving up his Avoidant ways to reunite with a long lost love. (Mr. FWB DID mention his ex-fiancee in passing at our last visit - from like 25 years ago - and at a different point mentioned that I and my ex boyfriend would "always have that connection" - hmmmm.)
Either way - if Mr. FWB has been radio silent for the last week and a half because he can't stand the closeness or because his ex is sweeping him off his feet - it's not really a big concern to me. He's been honest with me from the beginning about his limitations and I'm thankful for his honesty. Right now it's just like a science experiment - how long will it take before he emerges and replies to a text? Will he have some lame excuse? Has he been sick? Did he fall and couldn't get up? Is he reuniting with the ex? Or is it pure LOve Avoidant fear of closeness? I'm taking bets.
Meanwhile - the real reason I got on this subject is that I wonder how many of you here were possibly in a marriage with a Love Avoidant? Especially the men who may have been married to Avoidant wives (as I suspect Avoidant men are more likely to remain single).
It's also becoming clearer to me why Love Avoidants attract Love Addicts. This unexpected silence would drive a Love Addict crazy - they'd be banging down the doors and engaging in the dance. A secure attachment person would usually just move on like I did last time.
I'm not sure if those labels applied to myself or my ex.
We were the hand-holding extra-cute couple for pretty much our entire marriage. She was sure from the beginning that I was "the one" and clung to me pretty hard so perhaps she falls into the Love Addict category or at least did then?
For me, I never thought of her as a soul-mate or such things but I did adore her and she knew it. I (largely) recognized her flaws and accepted them knowing she wasn't "perfect" for me but knowing that there was no such creature.
Writing that out just caused some deja-WTF - but distance does give perspective.
One thing that bothered me about her was how certain needy people would barnacle themselves to her. Annoying to me, but she seemed to like it. OM was very likely one of those and the fact that he was available and had a large bank account added some sparkle that boring and reliable old AndrewP didn't have. She started her affair almost simultaneously with us finally getting completely clear of all consumer debt which had had us scrimping and saving for years and years.
I actually looked up the terms love avoidant / addict. I have a pretty good opinion of myself and like to believe in the best of anyone that I encounter so perhaps I'm in the "secure" category? With that said, I'd be delighted to have say - a particular bank teller calling me and suggesting we go on adventures.
Well as of today it's been 11 days of radio silence from my Love Avoidant friend. Place your bets on how long he'll go before he pops up out of his hole!
I've been texting him but sparingly. Only once every 2-3 days. Maybe a comment on the news here, a question about a book there. Today I asked him a question about what traffic will be like in his town Sunday as I am moving one of my sons there on Sunday and it turns out there's a huge Gay Pride celebration that day.
No response. If this was a normal friend I'd be sending the cops out for a welfare check about now lol! But Love Avoidants do this. Just go underground at times.
One Avoidant guy I dated tried to tell me he didn't call me all week because he cracked the screen on his cell phone. The guys in my band laughed hysterically at the idea I would buy that story!
So my guess is I won't hear from him for another week. What's your bet? And what's the longest you've been ghosted ?
No response. If this was a normal friend I'd be sending the cops out for a welfare check about now lol! But Love Avoidants do this. Just go underground at times.
Actually, if John Gray of Men are from Mars Women are from Venous fame is correct, he says this is a trait of all or at least most men - not just love avoidants. He calls is "going to his cave" and suggests that women just let men go to their caves when needed and not try to coax or push them out. He says it has nothing to do with them (the woman) but is how men deal with problems. On Venus, women want to talk, talk, talk about but not necessarily solve, their problems. Men don't - they go to their cave. I agree with John Gray - at least it certainly fits me.
All that said, how much are you willing to put up with from these guys? At what point is he just using you when it fits his moods? While I agree with going to my cave, I don't do it in radio silence. I will let the person know I'm busy, or I cracked my phone screen if that's the claim, in advance so they not expect to hear from me. But honestly KML, it almost looks like you are rather invested in whatever level of R you have, but he is not. He's just living his life the way he wants to without much regard. You would not put up with this from a friend - why then from a friend with benefits? And I'm sure you also know that every time you send another text, every couple of days, it resets the clock as to when you'll hear from him again. I'd stop that and let him come to you. Otherwise it really looks like pursuit - even of a FWB.
Just my thoughts.
No, normal non-Love Avoidant guys don't go radio silent for weeks at a time. Guys going into their caves are normal for short periods but this behavior is only Love Avoidants in my experience.
No, I'm not really invested - I've always known this guy wasn't capable of more. Right now my life is so busy and stressed that he is a welcome break from my otherwise tumultuous life, but I only have time to see him maybe once a month at best. (He's like going away to a spa for a night - enjoyable but if the spa closes I'll find another one.)I don't have the time and energy for real dating right now, maybe later in the summer I will. Meanwhile it's just kind of interesting to watch - like a science experiment. But like I said, reading again about it makes me wonder how many here were in marriages with Love Avoidants and didn't realize it? It might explain a lot to them.
And as for texts - I've just kept up a fairly normal (for us) amount of texts because as an avoidant, his underlying fear is actually abandonment. So it's a fine line. Really, only 2-3 texts in a week. Nothing personal. More like "Here's what Avenatti said today" or "Did I ever tell you about this novel my acquaintance wrote? It's about time traveling back to classic concerts, you might like it."
See, last time we dated, he did the same thing at almost exactly the same point and I just went off and started dating someone else. Trying something different this time as he has let me know he felt the loss last time.
Ugh - sitting in the courthouse trying to get a restraining order on crazy ex boyfriend who's on another manic tear. I've been storing some of his things for him at my house while he's been in and out of psych hospitals and rehabs but it's time to get it all out of there because it's becoming his focus whenever he's manic. No good deed goes unpunished.
Should have listened to my friend who told me to do this a year ago.
Also learned yesterday that although he was never violent with me, apparently he WAS violent with the OW that he had during our relationship, AND once tried to strangle her teenage son because he didn't save a piece of cake! That's super scary and I want nothing more to do with him. His bipolar mania isn't being controlled on meds and I want no part of anyone who can be violent.
At my middle son's graduation. My mom and I arrived early (concerned about LA traffic) and found a Starbucks on campus to sit and have a coffee. It's s very large campus - but who shows up but my ex and his child bride! Honestly, I could barely look at him. I'm so disgusted with him since he refused to help pay for youngest son's health insurance. I just don't have it in me to smile and play nice.
My son and I had already decided that mom and I would claim we had to get home afterwards so he wouldn't have to sit at dinner with both me and his dad. I would have done it but son was right - now that I've seen ex again for the first time in a year I'm just so very angry at the way he's treated our kids. It's for the best. We will have dinner with him later this week - without the tension.
Honestly, I don't feel the least bit of nostalgia for my marriage or pain over it's demise anymore - just disgust at the way he's treated our kids since.
I so resonate with this kml.. A month ago my ex invited me and my family to "her" graduation gathering for my son, although I had no desire to attend, I considered it for my sons sake. Twice since I've tried to get specifics to no avail, and last night she text to say she wasn't doing anything and I was free to make plans if I wished.
I don't miss her, don't have any good memories of our marriage, good snapshots of moments (all including my son) sure, but it's just sad that I have no real positive memories of 10 yrs of my life. I'm working on planning something for my son (I only have a week and a half) that he can invite friends to and am struggling on deciding if I should invite her. It is tough, not just for you.
It [censored] that I have to look at my ex and his wife and play friendly.
Her dance recital is coming up, and it's when me, my dad, my stepmom, him and the wifey have to sit together and play nice. I worry about my dad and the way he still, after 10 years, simmers with anger, and it is just uncomfortable. I sit in the middle of them.
My ex has her after the recital this year. All of us cannot do something together afterwards.
I really don't have any positive memories either. Maybe one or two. I was in denial our whole R and m about how he really was, and I finally allowed myself to become honest about it when you couldn't ignore his true colors.
It's sad, really.
I have kept things completely separate fron ex since he left 3 years ago. When he first left, i remember he wanted him and his mom to be included in sons family birthday party. It would have been too akward for my family and me as well. So ever since then, we do not do things together. I told my son daddy and mommy dont do things together anymore and he has accepted it since he was 4. I have a hard time with pretensions. And i think it would be worse for son to see me seething and trying to hide anger. Especially with ex acting nice, humble, and charming...yet me knowing what he was capable of. Not good for someone that was gaslighted to have to relive.
I know your kids are older kml and have been personally offended by your ex. So even more of a reason to avoid phony get togethers. Life is too short to voluntarily spend time with people that treated you like sh!t.
Its not like any of our divorces were friendly and mutual and done with respect.
Best quote from a nerdy guy's online dating profile today:
"For people whose opinion I do care about the things I'd like for them to think about me are; he's smart, he's sexy, and he's kind. In reality I'll settle for them not thinking; he's strange and he doesn't use semicolons correctly."
Made me laugh out loud.
That is a guy i would want to get to know.
Yeah, I sent him a message just because he made me laugh, we'll see if he answers.
Ask him about inverted comas or what full stop means.
V
Haven't heard back yet from Mr. Semicolons yet (darn!) but I have a "coffee date" (actually a glass-of-wine date) tomorrow with Mr. Caterpillar Mustache.
He seems nice and appropriate enough so far. I've purposefully avoided having extensive conversations with him because I knew it would be a couple of weeks before we could meet. I've learned to keep expectations low until meeting; you never know if there will be any attraction or not until then. (Although, to be completely honest, I did break that rule twice with long distance dates - luckily both of them turned out to be exceedingly sexy in person.)
He's actually age appropriate, appears to be gainfully employed, smart enough to play in chess clubs. (Which could be a good sign or an Aspergers sign lol. ). And he actually lives in my town. He looks like a grownup which seems attractive after crazy ex boyfriend. So fingers crossed that the mustache looks better on him in person!
Oh, and he's ex-Air Force; hopefully he was in long enough to have acquired a pension. At my age this is an important factor, whether or not a potential partner has a financial plan for their retirement. I should be ok in retirement myself, but won't have enough to carry a partner; it'd be nice to end up with a man who has similar resources. Or at least a guy who could pay his own bills so long as I provided free rent. (Mind you I'm thinking long term - NO desire to live with a guy any time soon).
Ok report on Mr Caterpillar Mustache and our wine date:
First of all - no Air Force pension. He was only in for four years. Worked mostly in telecom sales, lots of international business travel.
Was married for a long time - he pulled the plug on the marriage but sounds like he had legit reasons. Some of what he told me was - astounding. Clearly he's a beta male.
His wife came from money and he was making a good income working for Qualcomm. After their three kids were born his wife kinda checked out of parenting. Put them in preschool near his work and couldn't come attend to their issues there because she was busy socializing with the housewives. Spent like crazy. The example he gave me: she had an Accord but it wasn't practical with three kids so she bought a short van with Captains chairs in the middle and third child in the rear bench seat. Within two months she traded it in for a longer van so she had more cargo room behind the rear seat "for groceries " (he did all the grocery shopping). Then within six months she decided to trade it in because "all the mom's were driving Suburbans" so she bought a Denali.
He took the kids to Hawaii every year but wife only came the first time. (3girls)
He thinks the marriage started to go downhill during the recession when his wife's profligate spending couldn't continue. Later when their oldest daughter left for college the wife began drinking heavily (like 3 bottles of wine/day) and moved out of their bedroom. . (I suspect she was always drinking but just hid it better earlier) He couldn't convince her to get help and after three years of this he filed.
His oldest daughter wasn't around for most of this and blames him for not saving the marriage. He hasn't discussed her drinking and spending with the girls because he doesn't want to speak badly about her.
He seemed like a nice guy who was overly accommodating to a wife with some real issues. It's been five years since they split but he sustained a knee injury with quadriceps tear after that so has had some period of disability then part time at work and doesn't seem like he has the kind of money you'd expect from someone with his work history - likely due to the wife's spending, divorce costs and putting three kids through college (youngest still in).
I can only guess that since he was an only child whose parents died when he was 19 and 20, and since he had three kids, he was just really invested in making the family work. He seems beta male and eager to please but then he worked in international telecom sales so how beta could he be?
(Nothing against beta guys, an alpha friend is married to a lovely one and they have a great marriage. But I tend to gravitate towards more alpha males who can stand up to me, because I can be a forceful personality ).
I'll probably go on a real date with him. He seems nice but no sparks on my end yet.
Oh - and the mustache was less caterpillary in person.
Follow up:
Have agreed to a date next weekend with caterpillar mustache man (henceforth CMM).
But he's coming on too strong already, wanting to see me two or three times this week. I finally had to say dude, you'd put more research into buying a car! We don't even really know each other yet.
I mean, I know I'm a catch, I'm cute and smart and funny and interesting and genuine. I can practically see the jackpot signs above a guy like this' head when we're talking. But to anyone who is not a Love Addict the excessive enthusiasm too soon after meeting just says "needy"
I know he's a lonely guy - I'll give him a chance but the last guy who came on this strong turned out to be a bipolar addict with sociopathic tendencies!
So guys - if you're dating, don't think women will be impressed by hot pursuit after a coffee date. Wacky Love Addicts will fall for it - if that's what you want, great. But sane well balanced women who have lives of their own find it weird. Wait at least until there's been a date with mutually passionate kissing, ok?
Have I mentioned that I hate the new OkCupid format? It's been five years since I've been on, but apparently they recently made changes to reduce how many messages get through. I understand that some people were overwhelmed with messages, but what's the point in making people you write to disappear from your feed once you write to them unless they have also liked you too? And you can't see your sent messages once you've sent them unless they message you back - which requires them to notice and like your profile. I find it very cumbersome and I'm not getting responses from people I normally would have been likely to hear from - I suspect because they haven't crossed paths with my profile and seen that I messaged them. They really should just have a category for "people who have messaged you" that you could choose or not to look at.
Also, in the past, I've had luck messaging people even if I didn't quite fit into their age range or other preferences - now I suspect they don't even see my profile so they can't see my message?
Not a fan. Grrrrr.
Has anybody here used other OLD services that they liked better? I like the detailed profiles and questionnaires on OkCupid so don't think I'd like Tinder.
This is interesting to me. I created an OLD profile on both POF and Match about a year ago but except for some brief instances kept them as hidden - not really ready. I don't know about the other sites but they do seem to be a bit of a scam aimed at people who are looking for a quick hookup.
From what I've seen and from what I've heard from others, less is more.
Personally to no-one's surprise my original profile read like a Russian novel. Most though that I see are like the inside book-leaf on a book. A couple of paragraphs to entice you to buy the book but not giving away the whole plot.
Given the rural nature of the area I live in, I see the same profiles over and over again and have my own list of "red-flags" that I watch for.
- pictures that include wedding rings. Assuming that the person is available, don't they have anything more recent?
- spelling mistakes in the profile
- too brief or too detailed. I don't want your life story just yet but I need to know that you aren't going to harvest my organs in some back alley
- biker mommas (not to my taste)
- group pictures with attractive people who aren't you
- fishing / hunting - not to my taste again and I have to doubt the veracity of the interest
- drinking pictures - why do so many women post pictures of them chugging down big glasses of wine?
- exotic vacation pictures (out of my budget)
- obviously photo-shopped pictures
- more pictures of their dog and memes than of themselves.
- too much emphasis on cleavage (yes, I'm a fan but still ...)
I suppose in part it depends on what you are looking for. Despite my flashy neckwear, I'm a pretty conservative guy and would be looking for someone similar. A bit bookish, a sense of fun and oh yeah - cleavage please
I figure that if I ever do turn my profile on to visible I'll need to have a single paragraph and 3 or 4 pictures. I have a nice one of me in front of the Stratford Festival when I was attending the "scottish play", some pictures I took hiking that show most of me and perhaps some pictures of one of the pies I've made.
I dunno - do others who are actually active rather than a wallflower like me have any thoughts?
What I like about OkCupid is that they do have fairly good profiles - of course, you can make them as long or as short as you like, but they ask some good questions to get people started and a reasonable length profile can tell me a lot about a person - their interests, their spelling and use of the English language, etc.( I read a profile last night where the guy just said "I am slightly above average in most things" lol. I was not sold!)
What I'm talking about more though is the mechanics of the site - who sees you, how they do messaging etc. My profile is pretty much the same as it was last time I dated and I KNOW on the old format I would have heard from at least one of the three guys I messaged by now. I think it's just an issue with how they can't see your message unless they happen to stumble across your profile. And becoming a paid customer doesn't appear to change that part of the algorithm at all.
As to some of your other questions:
"drinking pictures - why do so many women post pictures of them chugging down big glasses of wine?"
Can't answer that - are they signaling I'm a drunk and you can take advantage of me? I'm a party girl? I tend to avoid the guys with pictures of drinking as well unless it's just a benign party pic to show they have friends.
"too much emphasis on cleavage (yes, I'm a fan but still ...)"
Guess they're signaling they're dtf? While I am blessed in this department I try not to advertise it as it attracts the wrong kind. If I did I imagine I would get even more naked guy in the bathroom mirror pictures.
Hahaha - did hear back from a promising looking guy that I had messaged - but as the conversation progressed online his syntax began to fracture a bit (in a Nigerian prince sort of way). Darn. I had even screened his pictures on Tineye and got no hits. But he looks like a scammer.
Wonder who the real guy is whose photos he stole - I'd love to meet THAT guy!
Ok, had a dinner date with Caterpillar Mustache Man (CMM). He looked more attractive the second time around (probably because he was much less nervous) . He took me to a nice restaurant for dinner. We had a lot of good conversation over dinner.
I asked him how his parents met (his dad was a black Pullman porter from Chicago and his mom an Israeli Jew. He told me this charming story about how his dad was sent to the Pullman plant in Alabama for a few months and mom was working behind the lunch counter at the drugstore. His dad resolved then and there to take all his meals at the drugstore. He must have been a good flirt because even though they never dated, when he returned a couple months after going back to Chicago, he convinced her to elope with him to Chicago.
He said his dad always told the story, and his mom "just smiled".
I've been able to verify some of his history online (kinda paranoid after ex-boyfriend) but would like to verify his parents deaths as the result of a car crash when he was twenty. Anybody know of a way to find out about fatal car crashes in Evanston Illinois in the 1970's?
Anyway, I'll go on another date with CMM. I don't think he has much money after his divorce but when I confessed I've never learned how to use Excell spreadsheets he asked "but how do you keep your budget?". I find it oddly sexy that he assumes I keep a budget (I do) and that he clearly does (which puts him far ahead of most of my past dates on the financial responsibility scale).