The excitement of what if - DivorceBusting.com

Thanks guys. Jelly, I stole your line

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2713548&page=11

Regarding the topic of happiness, and positive thinking I found this interesting.

I read this from a book written by a non verbal 13 year old autistic boy after he was asked "would you like to be normal"?

This was his response

"I learned that every human being, with or without disabilities, needs to strive to do their best, and by striving for happiness you will arrive at happiness. For us, you see having autism is normal-so we cant know for sure what your normal is even like. But so long as we can learn to love ourselves, I'm not sure how much it matters whether we're normal or autistic"

I am frustrated. I feel invalidated by everyone around me.

My ex for certain. But i gave up expecting anything more from him.

Now my parents... Who keep insisting that my son's issues are due to his stubborness and rebellious nature and because I do not invite friends over for him to play with. They are educated people. My mom was a teacher, and it is just so scary to me that they cannot comprehend that there is a neurological issue driving everything. They are his care givers and it is frustrating for me to be dependent on them.

They are so old school. I can even imagine my mother as a teacher insisting on her own disciplinary approach with some of her students that had similar issues. I wonder if this is why she is incapable of learning new approaches with my son? Guilt that she was doing it wrong?

I do need to invite friends over for him. My mom is right about that. But i am so so embarrassed by my situation and by my parents home. We live in a area that became more expensive over the years. Many of the people that live here have a lot of money. Truth be told, I am so embarrassed to have them see my parents home.

It is clean but disorganized and chaotic. Things go unfixed. They use lawn furniture in replace of living room furniture because of the cat. They do not care what others think and they don't even understand social norms. (My ex quite accurately described my parents as being from another planet. He was not exaggerating) It reflects and i do admire that about them. But at the same time these things do matter in the real world of social conventions/etiquette etc.

I know that none of this should matter. It would never matter to me as long as his friends were good people. But I know how people are and I do not want to be looked down upon. I feel like him and I are such outsiders already.

I am rambling now. I know it.

Hey JujuB, and that sums up totally why I loved working with families who had children with special health and disability needs, opens your eyes wide open to a world you could never see without it. Gotta love our fellow humans on the Spectrum!!!

Take care.

JellyBxxx

Thanks Jelly.

As you can see by my posts, I am struggling with accepting that role of outsider, and finding happiness with one's own circumstances.

Truth is, I like people that are not cookie cutter and that do not come from cookie cut backgrounds. I find them more relateable and interesting and soulful.

But for some reason there is a part of me that wants to be cookie cutter. Maybe no one really is and i just think they are and thus shun getting out there and socializing for my son's sake? I struggle with the thought that you have to be perfect for acceptance..even though i rationally know its ridiculous.

Originally Posted By: JellyB

Hey JujuB, and that sums up totally why I loved working with families who had children with special health and disability needs, opens your eyes wide open to a world you could never see without it. Gotta love our fellow humans on the Spectrum!!!

Take care.

JellyBxxx

From a PT stand point, while I mostly treat orthopedic patients there is something very special about working with that patient that has grown up with special health and disability needs. It is always a priveledge to work with and learn from them. They rarely complain!

I am starting to think about switching my field to working with pediatrics. It would be completely different. I would need new courses, mentoring etc. It would be Lots of neuro. But I am learning it any way for my son. An advantage is that it would be one on one which is nice. Hmm

Not sure though, as it would most likely require plenty of after school hours.

Sorry more rambling. I need to get stuff done.

Can I tell you the truth about something? My home is decently kept, but it can be messy sometimes. Other times it could be very messy. When I send my kid over to a house for a play date that is messier than mine, I feel RELIEF! The messier or not cookie cutter on the other end, the better I feel about not having a perfect place myself! My best friend lives in one of the largest homes in town. it is PERFECTLY kept. That has actually made the other moms feel more uncomfortable about sending their kids over, believe it or not.

So relax. There is no such thing as perfection. There is also no such things as cookie-cutter. Have a play-date, you would be surprised.

JujuB,

You and your family are entering a new world of diagnosis and specialists and interventions. This is a big learning curve for all of you. Any diagnosis be it physical health, mental health or disability, doesn't happen to one individual, it happens to a family. And as with most big events in life, people go through their change process. I think our parents (and likely us too when we get there) are at the age of less adaptability and flexibility in their thinking and attitude. I have seen it time again with parents and grandparents, the struggle to come to terms with difference. Life conditions us to expect things to be a certain way, and we are super comfortable knowing that we have expertise to respond to a situation because well, life has always shown up in a certain way.

Well life hasn't shown up in the expected way just now. Most people's response to change and the unexpected, is to do what you know. Try and fit a square peg into a round hole, and we will push and shove it in as much as we can, likely hurting ourselves or breaking the peg in the process.

It takes time JujuB for everyone in your son's life to figure out what his diagnosis means to them. But what people fail to realize, is you son is who he is, regardless of the diagnosis, all his family and friends would have had to learn to know him, and his traits and quirks, because quite frankly we all have them. Your son and you are just fortunate or unfortunate enough to have a few of them identified in book. Like your son, I experience the world around me as a challenging place to be due to anxiety. But you know what , those that know me understand me, but those that know me don't understand me. How human is that!!

I guess what I am trying to say JujuB. Your parents will get there, at some point they will accept your lovely boy as he is and not as they want or expect him to be, or alternatively they won't. But what I fundamentally believe is that even without the diagnosis, that may have been the case. They may never have accepted him just as he is even if he didn't have his diagnosis. Grandparents and parents love their children, but lets face it, you likely didn't turn out how your parents wanted you to either, and you don't have a diagnosis, and you still feel loved and supported right?

JujuB, your situation is challenging, living with your parents, with your son, whom your parents don't understand. That is no easy thing. I can only imagine that you feel trapped with little view of the future except that it is going to keep looking like this for some time. I have 101 suggestions about alternatives ways of looking at things and actions about your living situation. But I feel right now, you are in place of grief and loss, and that needs to be honored. You have some immediate tasks ahead of you rallying your super team for your son and getting the D done.

Your parents and a new home, and the beginnings of a new life, can wait. The new and great things that are awaiting you are not going anywhere JujuB. When you are ready they will come.

Much Love

JellyBxxx

Hi JujuB,

I have no advice to give but just to let you that I'm thinking of you.
Look after yourself and your lovely boy.
Take care my friend.

Thanks guys

I do feel financially trapped jelly. I am unhappy with my living arrangement. And I don't feel like there is a way out.

I cannot move to an affordable area unless STBX moves. And even if I could, I would need help with babysitting. With The amount of sick days and vacation days and half days needed, I would have been fired a long time ago if it weren't for my parents.

My son needs lots of services. And that has to be a priority. I need free babysitting while I work and I get that here. But I am really unhappy and my parents are not living the retired life that they wanted either so there is tension.

I don't foresee any realistic way out. And I do feel stuck in a perpetual limbo.

I know others have it worse. I really feel that having my own place would improve my life by 100% though.

Most of the time when I get upset with my ex, it's because of my living situation now. It is not because he ended things, things haven't really changed since he was never around anyway. ITs because right or wrong I blame him for my circumstances...not having a place of our own to live.

Juju...I am way behind on posts on here, but it sounds like your son got an autism diagnosis? As you know, I too have a child with autism, and have been through the whole gamut of diagnosis, early intervention, therapy, IEPs, and friends and family who did/do not understand. If you have any questions or just want to bounce thoughts of someone else who's been there, feel free to reach out!

Congrats on a nice connection...but remember, take your time and protect your heart (I'm still trying to figure out how that is done lol)!

Thanks Anna. I will do so. The diagnosis really didn't come as a surprise to me. He fits to a T the classic kid with Aspergers (based on the old term) and now with the diagnosis, I have direction and more access to help. He is an awesome kid and I just want to help him manage the aspects of this that make life difficult (sensory and adhd and socialization). My biggest fear is him getting picked on and isolated and manipulated by the other kids as he gets older.

(My fears and my what if are horrible and I have to stop!!!)

Sorry JujuB, my post above is on the wrong thread! My bad...

Non worries whatsis.

Originally Posted By: JujuB

Thanks guys

I do feel financially trapped jelly. I am unhappy with my living arrangement. And I don't feel like there is a way out.

I cannot move to an affordable area unless STBX moves. And even if I could, I would need help with babysitting. With The amount of sick days and vacation days and half days needed, I would have been fired a long time ago if it weren't for my parents.

My son needs lots of services. And that has to be a priority. I need free babysitting while I work and I get that here. But I am really unhappy and my parents are not living the retired life that they wanted either so there is tension.

I don't foresee any realistic way out. And I do feel stuck in a perpetual limbo.

I know others have it worse. I really feel that having my own place would improve my life by 100% though.

Most of the time when I get upset with my ex, it's because of my living situation now. It is not because he ended things, things haven't really changed since he was never around anyway. ITs because right or wrong I blame him for my circumstances...not having a place of our own to live.

Makes sense J. I mean, you partnered up with the understanding you'd have a permanent relationship and build a life together that would include a reasonable lifestyle. By breaking his vows he not only removed the husband from your life, but the quality of life he committed to developing with you as well. You are quite literally in financial duress with limited options and not much chance this will change anytime soon.

This is part of the world not working the way I wish it did. Part of expectations getting in the way. In the end, none of us are entitled to have our own place to live. It's been ingrained into us by sitcoms and prior generations when the economy wasn't as easy, but that's not reality. Reality is there are a lot of people in difficult situations in our country and around the world. It stinks.

I struggle with that. I also am still saddened by the loss I'm facing with how I thought marriage would work, and what I thought I'd have in my life.

The bad news is that your situation probably isn't going to change anytime soon. You made a commitment to raise your children and you're doing what you have to to honor that commitment and put them first. If that means you live with parents and manage special needs, well, that's what you do because that's what you control. It would be nice if the entire world operated that way, but you can't change the world. You can change the entire world for your son, so that's what you can do. And I'm proud of you for that.

The good news is that there is plenty of space between. Just make sure to keep enjoying it. OK to vent about your problems a bit, we understand totally. But as you start to enjoy your space more and more, you might find the anger will naturally fade away little by little. In fact, your resentment could almost be a sign that you need to improve your appreciation skills, because the two emotions have a hard time coexisting. (Anger started sexting with other people, Appreciation made it clear it wouldn't remain in an open marriage, Anger gave the ILYBINILWY, etc, etc, now they live in different states)

Glad you're still posting J.

I love you

I hear you when you say that it isn't the life you expected nor for your parents. Firstly have you spoken to them about it. If you haven't maybe it could be that you are just assuming things. I'm guilty of this a lot.

Secondly have looked around to see what help you can get for you and your son. I used to see problems with every situation I was in, but now I realised that at times things are out of our control. This is where we can change: we either see it as their is nothing we can do and be miserable or we can see that it is not an ok situation but what can I do about it. Now I'm choosing option 2.

JujuB our situation might not be the same but WE are very similar with our doubts, feelings and fears. Sometimes we need a third perspective, and I can see that you are poisoning yourself. This is a vicious circle that we need to break as more negative thoughts will only bring more negative ones. Even if it's hard (I know how hard it is believe me) you need to start by baby step. One day at a time tell to yourself something nice. Your brain will fight it and you won't be convinced by it but repeat it to yourself during the day, and the next and the next. Each day it will be easier. Unfortunately we have been programmed by negativity and our brain can't deal with positivity. This is an internal fight that we have to win JujuB and I know you can do it.

I'm here all the way with you. So tell me what would your nice thing to say to you be?

Hang in there.

My son wrote the "I love you" this morning cause I left my ipad open.

But sorry guys I think he was writing to me.

Happy Valentines Day

I was just feeling sad, about how I used to take Valentines Day for granted. I ruined everything romantic, because I was always so practical and cynical. I would make fun of it for being a hallmark holiday.

Now, I think about how nice it would be to have someone to share a romantic day with. I think about how nice it would have been, had I went out more and made it special all those years with ex.

Originally Posted By: JujuB

I was just feeling sad, about how I used to take Valentines Day for granted. I ruined everything romantic, because I was always so practical and cynical. I would make fun of it for being a hallmark holiday.

JujuB,

I used to feel the same way; I've always felt manipulated because those special days are often used for commercial benefit.

I still tell my sons that they don't have to celebrate Father's Day, if they don't want to, because they're so good that they make every day Father's Day. And it's true, for me, every day is Father's Day.

The one regret I have, not that it would've necessarily made any difference, is that every day should've been Valentine's Day for my wife. She didn't always make it easy to do that, but...

One interesting factoid: the woman who "invented" Mother's Day actually began rallying against Mother's Day because it had been so completely commercialized.

So, don't feel badly for not recognizing holidays that have been butchered for the sake of making more money. Many of them have lost their meaning. I really enjoy Fourth of July because it's a holiday without expectations.

Thank you Zues and Rouky. I am having trouble coping with having to deal with failed expectations. I felt that because i worked hard, and played by the rules, and made choices based on logic and thought, that life would play out more favorably.

All we need to know in life is what we learned in Kindergarten..."You get what you get and you don't get upset" Truly not an easy lesson. I am as frustrated now as my son was when he didnt get the color paper he wanted!

Rouky, you have described me perfectly. "programmed by negativity and my brain cant deal with positivity" I find something to fear or ruminate on no matter what!

My nice thing to say to me would be "You are a great mom. Your son is lucky and will never know how lucky he is. You have been nothing but patient with him, when others would not have been. You continue to push for him in every way. You are and will continue to be a really great advocate for him. You always put him first and his best interests are what drives you."

Originally Posted By: JujuB

My nice thing to say to me would be "You are a great mom. Your son is lucky and will never know how lucky he is. You have been nothing but patient with him, when others would not have been. You continue to push for him in every way. You are and will continue to be a really great advocate for him. You always put him first and his best interests are what drives you."

Looks like an excellent mother to me. He is beyond fortunate to have you as his Mommy.

You are seeking a perfection that doesn't exist.

Ditto as Ginger.

Can you rephrase it to : I'm a great mum and I do the best I can. Now i'd like you to say it to yourself first thing in the morning (before you get up), while you brush your teeth, at lunch, everytime you feel down and last thing before you fall asleep.

Now I know you are going to tell me that it will sound ridiculous (and it will because as I said your negative brain will try to fight it). For me it took me one week before I started to believe what I was saying: I deserve to be happy and I deserve to be love, and you know what I'm a month into saying it and I believe e it! My self love has been very high.

It's like the advice we get here :fake it until you believe it. Trust me on this one JujuB if you stick with it for at least 21 days it will be a massive 180 for you. There will be days when it will be hard but stick to it and you mind will shift from negativity to positivity.

I know you can do it. I will be by your side. Can you make that commitment to yourself for the next 21 days?

Thank you rouky!

I am reminding myself this instant that I am a great mom.

I actually do not have a lot of bad things in my life, except living with my parents. And to be honest in the area I live in, most singles in their 30s with full time professional jobs and no kids live with their parents here. It is that unaffordable. Then they leave to move to a more affordable area. It's our main export...educated youth.

I think this is just a down swing for me. The legal divorce process has started. My first court conference is coming up, it's winter and I'm probably Vit D deficient, I broke my ankle and lost my major stress outlet which was running. I am in process of Learning about a new diagnosis and fighting for services. And now I'm getting a cold. It's a lot!

And I just have to get through it one day at a time. Spring will be better. I just have to get through the next 2 months.

My goal is to get back into my exercise routine. I feel great and I have more confidence about myself when i exercise. So it's a must I have to fit in. I think tomorrow might be the day.

I actually felt better about myself last spring and summer then I am right now. So I know that lack of exercise and winter is playing a role. Right now I feel old and out of shape and unattractive. I have to change that mindset.

Just journaling

Upcoming conference with judge and lawyers and I am very very very nervous. I just want this to be over. For some reason, I feel like this is a sentencing. I would be less nervous getting a surgery then going to this meeting! I am so tired. I can't concentrate. I am anxious about work in a way I haven't been for a while.

I am telling myself...I did not do anything wrong. There is not much I can lose other then half my savings. I can live with that although I would be mad. my lawyer said that ex's lawyer told her he does not want anymore custody then he already has (4 days/month) I still feel sick over this.
I need therapy!

So we have come up with an agreement. Neither of us make out in this situation. Just the divorce attorneys. It's a very expensive process and I truly wish things went differently.

I realized today, my ex is not the villain I made him out to be. Just someone that is flawed. And I am flawed, but in a different way.

He basically managed his life and his issues secretly. By doing so he said He wanted to avoid fighting. I wanted to manage our lives openly and by working as a team. But I can honestly say my criticism and resentment and self righteousness would never have made me the best team mate either.

When he left me, he once again left with secrets. I responded with full on paranoia and anxiety. I was the worst divorce buster ever. Had I implemented the advice differently, could I have saved my marriage? Quite possibly. (I still have no evidence of cheating.mbased on what I found out, there is a good chance there was no cheating.). but I was too angry at him. I just couldn't get past that anger.

If he had been more transparent and communicated better from the beginning I would have trusted more as well. Really, if he had just been more vulnerable with me I would not have felt the need for constant bickering.

Today Things ended kind of amicably. I think we will be fine as coparents.

I was not an easy person to deal with. I am embarassed by how I was in our relationship. He was not either though. I Really really wish I could go back knowing what I know now. I still love him. I worry about him. I fear bad things will happen to him but at the same time don't want him to be happy without me.
There are parts of our relationship i do miss. It wasn't all bad. But things were bad for so long,mits hard to remember it was good at some points. And he's the one that left.

Glad it's getting put to bed.

I feel ya J. This isn't good and evil, it's just a bunch of imperfect humans bumping into each other. Relationships are going to be difficult because we all have our problems.

But you're right. Regardless of why, he left. Once either spouse puts divorce on the table as an option the game is up. It trumps all possibility of evolution or having spring follow the winter of the relationship.

For me, my trigger is 'feelings'. Anger, fear, unhappiness, loneliness, suffering, lack of attraction, etc. It's not that I don't care at all about feelings anymore, but kind of. I'm kind of a suck it up and do what you have to do and be pleasantly surprised if good feelings come along at times. This means when things are bad, suck it up and stay married. When you don't feel like giving to your spouse or to your children or to your employer, suck it up and do what you need to do. I get impatient with the newcomers that constantly talk about how they feel about their WAS in terms of whether they want to keep standing by their M. I'm like 'if you're willing to give up on standing because you no longer feel like it, why are you upset with them for leaving when they no longer felt like staying married?!?' It's all feelings, feelings, feelings. Feelings are super short term and change like the weather. They have important messages to tell us and we need to listen to them, but they can't take over the steering wheel of our life either.

I've learned to listen to my feelings to hear what they're telling me, but in the end I look at my behavior, and whether I am delivering what I need to as a dad and an employee. My kids don't care how I feel, they need me to provide for them and care for them. My company doesn't care how I feel, they need me to produce. It is my duty to make good on those commitments. These are some of my core beliefs about who I am and what I'm supposed to do. I don't put my emotions above that and allow my mood or my momentary happiness above those obligations.

Don't know where that all came from, maybe something on my mind and maybe something jogged that thread in your post, I'm not sure. But really just to reiterate that you didn't walk, he did. Doesn't excuse you from mistakes you made and doing a poor job of managing your behavior and emotions before (although we don't need an excuse for our flaws, our humanity is our excuse), but it no longer matters in terms of the M as the game is up. And while I am no fan of walking from a M, his humanity excuses him to some degree to.

I guess I'm really tired. Instead of deleting this post I'll submit it and read it again tomorrow and see if there is any coherence or underlying point to this.

Thanks J. Take care.

Zues

What's the real difference between feelings and beliefs? Neither are permanent. Nothing about life is permanent. Everything can be twisted.

For example, most people have the belief that marriage should be based on fidelity. But if your partner cheats, there are some that would be willing to overlook that belief and work on their marriage because they have feelings of love for their cheating spouse. Or because they do not want to feel grief or loss.
So while feelings influence our beliefs, our beliefs also influence our feelings. I feel angry because my husband defied my beliefs of a committed marriage.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't know how one could actually separate out feelings from beliefs.

I get that feelings are not reliable. I struggle with that because I like things to be fair and "right" but I am often not sure what is fair and right because my feelings are constantly changing. Makes me not trust myself or my judgement. Makes me not alway trust my actions or beliefs.

But I'm gonna stand up for feelings. Feelings and emotions are what makes us alive. They inspire great art and literature. They are the reasons why jokes are funny. Feelings are what drives us to succeed or win or work for change. They ensure protection and survival of our children. Hey, they make sex better. Why are you knocking feelings?

I'm also really tired. I have not been sleeping because of all these DAMN feelings! I know I did not walk away from my marriage. My husband did. Turns out he had tons of credit card debt he had been keeping a secret from me. Luckily, I'm not responsible for it. He was angry and stressed and kept blaming our financial situation on me only working part time. I was convinced he was secretly hiding money and investing. He didn't tell me about it because he wanted to avoid fighting. The truth is it would have been a fight. I wouldn't have been good about it. I would have been angry at the time. But now I'm not angry. I am only sad. I am sad that we didn't work together as a team financially, I am sad that I wasnt a person that would have been solution oriented instead of blame oriented and I am sad that it was money that contributed to the break down of my marriage. Another woman, I would not have forgiven. But if he had just been vulnerable and open with me. Someone said this to me and it just described my situation perfectly. " he left me the same way he managed his debt...with secrets"
I googled remarriage after divorce yesterday. My ex wouldn't want this. He would say there's too much damage. It's obvious the way he was pushing for the divorce. He wants to be single. We also cannot stop bickering. I am frusturated by him and by this and for some reason despite all this time I can still not manage my behavior or emotions concerning this and him.
I don't understand my feelings!!!

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What's the real difference between feelings and beliefs?

Beliefs to me are things like:

Marriage is forever.

We aren't here to judge our spouse or our marriage based on they or it is doing for us, but rather to challenge ourselves to be the best partner we can be for our spouse. This is one of our primary purposes in our lives.

We are here to find appreciation in what we have been given.

We are here to be the best parents we can be, to help teach our kids to celebrate their time on this planet, develop their gifts, and help them develop their own beliefs that will guide them through their lives.

It is important to use the gifts we have and do the best we can at what we do.

We should live in a way such that if everyone on the planet duplicated our behavior the world would be a little nicer, not a little more savage.

These are just some of my beliefs, on top of many that are outlined in our classic religions (10 commandments, etc.)

Feelings to me are things that are about what we want or don't want:

I deserve better than this in a relationship so I'm going to leave.

I should get to do what I want to do every day instead of this job so I'm going to quit and pursue my dreams and not worry about what this might do for my family.

I have more fun watching football and drinking beer than hanging out with my kids so I'll stay at the bar tonight.

I don't feel like practicing or working hard so I'll just do the minimum and not care what the results look like.

I'm not happy with what life has given me so I'm not going to enjoy any of it because I deserved so much better.

OK, so I'm not giving this any thought or proofreading, this is just shooting from the hip. My point is that I have no problem recognizing and listening to feelings to see what they have to say, but to allow them to direct your life in a way that runs contrary to underlying beliefs seems very destructive to me. And while some beliefs might evolve (being the best at what you do, for example, maybe you try your best at work when you're an adult instead of your choir when you are a kid, or being the best parent you can be can evolve as you try to navigate through different challenges) the underlying themes can remain constant. And some, like not divorcing or murdering, are very rigid.

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For example, most people have the belief that marriage should be based on fidelity. But if your partner cheats, there are some that would be willing to overlook that belief and work on their marriage because they have feelings of love for their cheating spouse. Or because they do not want to feel grief or loss.

I have the belief that marriage should be based on fidelity. That belief is for ME. *I* won't cheat. If my partner cheats, yes, I will have some difficult decisions to make. But my partner violating one of my beliefs is about them, not about me. I would then have to act in accordance with my beliefs to determine how I felt I should respond. This can be tough as they can conflict, for example my belief that marriage is permanent would be an argument to stay, whereas the belief of doing what's best to provide for my children could be more murky as they would benefit from both mom and dad but not from a poor model of marriage or demonstrating to them an acceptance of ongoing disrespect or infidelity. In that situation, though, I think making emotional decisions is destructive, that instead we have to let our emotions have their say, but then calm down and try to interpret what course of action best fits with all beliefs. Some are more priority than others. In the end we're not perfect but we can strive to do our best rather than reacting to our emotions and rationalizing the path of least resistance.

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But I'm gonna stand up for feelings. Feelings and emotions are what makes us alive. They inspire great art and literature. They are the reasons why jokes are funny. Feelings are what drives us to succeed or win or work for change. They ensure protection and survival of our children. Hey, they make sex better. Why are you knocking feelings?

Feelings are great, they are what makes us who we are, they are the spice of life. I just think they are a lousy compass for our lives in many ways. Our beliefs come first. How we spend our leisure time, what kind of movie we want to watch, what food to order, what book to read, etc, those are great decisions to guide with feelings. Whether to stay married or divorce, whether to quit your job or keep working, whether to focus on your spouse's behavior or on yours, these are things where they don't serve as well.

My perception is that most of the destruction in our culture comes from people elevating their feelings and entitlement to personal happiness above the beliefs that used to hold our society together.

So, like anything else, the key is balance. Feelings are fine in balance, just like a beer, or a bowl of icecream, or a binge netflix session. But what can be done can be overdone. Even this beliefs rant could be overdone if it interfered with the joy we have for our life or festered resentment in the rest of humanity for being human. I've seen that too and try to avoid that as that would be paradoxically against my belief that life is for celebration. But in the end I don't think this is the direction we are out of balance these days.

Just my thoughts though J, murky at times in my mind so definitely not cast in stone and probably expressed a little clumsily. Oh well, if I waited to make this post perfect it would never happen so let's just submit and move on...;)

Hi JujuB just checking how you are and if you are still doing your positive thinking.

Hope you are well.

Hello Rouky, thanks for checking in.

You know what my fear of positive thinking is? Its that I wont be able to see the truth. I will be looking at things with rose colored glasses and fail to see and address an issue that really needs addressing. Its like I use that negativity and fear to act.

But thats not really a good thing. Sometimes, I might be creating issues and acting upon issues that are not there. And sometimes the negative thinking simply breeds negativity.

I agree with you in that I do need the positivity to help balance my life.

I have tried hypnotherapy. I am not sure what else to do. Exercise and spring might help. I might need to get professional help. I feel down and heavy and I am learning that one has to actively work on positivity.

But anyway, here are some positives in my life.

1. I am on my way to getting better help for my son. Each appointment, each evaluation moves me forward to finding more help and answers. I feel proud that I am educated and that I am a good advocate.

2. I like my job and I have some further options when things get settled.

3. I have a supportive family

Zues

I agree with these core sets of beliefs you describe.

I think that for me, (1) I am comfortable with negative feelings, therefore it is easy for me to ignore them in order to do what is right. I guess, i have a high tolerance for dysfunction. (2) i recognize that we are doomed regardless of whether we are married or not, so why not follow our committments (to me the commitment is really what I based my actions on (3) i grew up with strict consequences, and thus have always avoided irresponsibility. I have never been the type to go chasing after flowers.

Not what your getting at, I know.

What I am working on is recognizing that it doesnt have to be doom and gloom. And that I do need to live in a way where I am appreciating what i do have.

Some other thoughts...

My beliefs about marriage and people in general made dbing very hard for me. I was not able to be a friend, as was recommended. I believed that husbands actions were deplorable and not friendship worthy. I disagreed with him and while I tried to understand his perspective, I couldnt. I lashed out and continue to lash out with passive aggressive comments. He was recently being friendly, but I am in such disagreement with him on ending the marriage that I responded with a subtly offensive comment regarding how children are not as resilient to divorce as some like to claim. And why? Because I believe, no because I know that I am right.

Many on here take a higher role. They seek to forgive. They hide their anger, their resentment, their frusturation. Their spouses were committing the ultimate betrayals and they were able to swallow that "s. Sandwich". I just couldn't let go of my beliefs of marriage and committment and how people in a relationship should act.

I wanted to be right, instead of doing what would work to get my spouse back.

Now in many ways I was right. I absolutely had to get child support. I don't regret taking him to court. That one action (recommended by a lawyer) protected me in so many ways beyond money but it also made ex furious.

A part of me does wonder if doing anything I could to save the marriage (giving up pride, being that friend, being soft with someone that did not deserve it ) would have been ultimately worth it.

On one hand, we could have built a loving relationship. Eventually, I suspect he could have become devoted again and at that point we could have worked on our issues.

On the other hand, he could have left again when life became difficult.

There's also a good chance that he just wanted out and is happier now. Although he doesn't seem happy.

Maybe I am being fooled though and he is hiding a girlfriend till after our divorce settlement.

From what I am gathering now, my case seems to be more one of financial infidelity. But who knows. Everything was a secret. And still is.

I kind of envy those of you. Most of you who actually know what they were up against. I never had that. So it was always speculation for me, instead of hard facts. I am still trying to get those hard facts.

Sorry for the rambling.

Quote:

kind of envy those of you. Most of you who actually know what they were up against. I never had that. So it was always speculation for me, instead of hard facts. I am still trying to get those hard facts.

I'm right there with you. I never got those facts. Never.

Originally Posted By: JujuB

A part of me does wonder if doing anything I could to save the marriage (giving up pride, being that friend, being soft with someone that did not deserve it ) would have been ultimately worth it.

JujuB,

I'm not terribly keen on friending the wayward spouse back into the marriage because, in my opinion, it just sets-up the opportunity for a repeat and I'm not going through that sh*t again.

I don't think my XW could ever come back to me. Not because she wouldn't come back, but because I've changed so much that she couldn't come back. I wouldn't tolerate much of the stuff that she foisted on me in the past. I'm typically a very tolerant and easy-going guy, but my XW would have to walk on eggshells in order to regain my trust. I don't want either of us to have to walk on eggshells, so I see no possibility of reconciliation because I've changed so much. The doormat is gone.

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: JujuB

A part of me does wonder if doing anything I could to save the marriage (giving up pride, being that friend, being soft with someone that did not deserve it ) would have been ultimately worth it.

JujuB,

I'm not terribly keen on friending the wayward spouse back into the marriage because, in my opinion, it just sets-up the opportunity for a repeat and I'm not going through that sh*t again.

I don't think my XW could ever come back to me. Not because she wouldn't come back, but because I've changed so much that she couldn't come back. I wouldn't tolerate much of the stuff that she foisted on me in the past. I'm typically a very tolerant and easy-going guy, but my XW would have to walk on eggshells in order to regain my trust. I don't want either of us to have to walk on eggshells, so I see no possibility of reconciliation because I've changed so much. The doormat is gone.

I feel the exact same way.

I put up with such disrespect from her, for so long. It was a learned behavior from her mother. Her father puts up with so much from my EX-MIL, he's a saint to me and to others.

I just don't see EX ever having the capability to walk on those eggshells and go through the war of rebuilding the massive trust she destroyed. She doesn't have it in her.

If she does, more power to her. But just like you, I don't want to walk on eggshells. There are other fish in the sea. And I really like who I am becoming. A gentler, kinder, empathetic, interesting, and more fit Trumpet. I like myself again.

Quote:

If she does, more power to her. But just like you, I don't want to walk on eggshells. There are other fish in the sea. And I really like who I am becoming. A gentler, kinder, empathetic, interesting, and more fit Trumpet. I like myself again.

Me too. Me too.

I think the facts certainly would have helped with a sense of closure. Instead we dont really know what exactly we are mad at other then them leaving.

That's really fair, and logical doodler. I read about the people on piecing, even those whose spouses were remorseful and it's really tough to forget.

In my case, I still have no idea if there was any infidelity. And it doesn't matter anyhow cause husband doesn't want back. He seems to want to be friendly though.

My son was telling me how daddy said it was ok if I went with them to some Waterpark near them. I tell son, "no. Mommy and daddy don't do things together any more"

The friend thing is hard for me. I feel like it's telling him that his decision to end our marriage was ok and the right thing to do. The DB coach felt that the only chance at salvaging a marriage was by building a friendship and then letting that lead to more.

I don't understand how people look past their hurt...unless their spouse came back and was completely remorseful.

As a LBS who lost so much pride and self respect during those early days, it is really hard to initiate or trust or accept any type of olive branch. Even one that seems to be made for coparenting.

Sometimes they seek "friendship" because it makes them feel better.

Your right jeep

I think for me to be his friend gives him legitimacy in his unilateral decision to end our marriage. He sees it as a marriage that just didnt work out. He does not own up to leaving a wife and special needs son with is in laws to take care of.

How could i be friends with someone like that?

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How could i be friends with someone like that?

I've often asked myself the same question. After all she has said and done, she wants to be friends for the kids sake...its always that guilt argument. Not sure I can. Not at this moment, anyway.

They use the kid argument and all these therapists get on board.

I'm in no way friends with my ex, but we do coparent and occasionally spend time together with our D. How do I get past the hurt? I am pretty far out an dI have no feelings towards him. All feelings have pretty much gone away. I don't care about punishing him anymore, the only thing that concerns me is our D is happy.

You aren't there right now, you may not be anytime soon. But don't worry about being friends.

Quote:

They use the kid argument and all these therapists get on board.

Yes, yes they do. They know what they are doing. And they pitch it to anyone/everyone who will listen.

I think the real problem from our divorce system and culture stems from the dads that leave their families...

I know for a fact that my ex would not have paid fair amount of child support without court order. What he is and will be paying is not enough. He left us with nothing because he supposedly was building up credit card debt.

Now because of dad's like him, the courts try to set rules so these left behind mom's with small kids don't need tax payer monies to support their kids. (But I guarantee that the laws aren't set up to make it truly liveable for these left behind moms)

And then some messed up wives that want to break their vows and committment and obviously have no concern for their families exploit those laws and often F. Over the dad's that truly want to be their for the kids and have been out their providing for their families.

It should really be about proofing who the walkaway, cheater was. But not so.

Sorry..was going off on another tangent.

Ginger, I am sure it is still early for me. He is trying to be friendly and i am still hurt. And I never want him to feel that what he did was ok. Because it wasn't. Maybe in the future at a time when my life is easier. I resent him for my struggles.

Quote:

He is trying to be friendly and i am still hurt

Just a way for him to ease his guilt. Oftentimes they feel that if we become friends with them, then we are accepting of the situation...and all that comes with it.

Originally Posted By: Jeep74

Quote:

He is trying to be friendly and i am still hurt

Just a way for him to ease his guilt. Oftentimes they feel that if we become friends with them, then we are accepting of the situation...and all that comes with it.

I think you are right. And will remember it. Nothing bothers me more then pretensions.

Hah. I remember when I took him to court back in 2015 his mom came and while we were waiting she kept talking to me about her sisters thanksgiving cooking. It was so weird!!! And then at son's friend party she was making conversation with me about pizza. And I'm just thinking about how ridiculous her conversation was.

It's just invalidating to the extreme.

I hate the "let's just agree to disagree" bs. It's dismissive.

And I'm not ready to be nice. Maybe when I win the lottery, I'll be able to talk about meals and pizza.

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Hah. I remember when I took him to court back in 2015 his mom came and while we were waiting she kept talking to me about her sisters thanksgiving cooking. It was so weird!!! And then at son's friend party she was making conversation with me about pizza. And I'm just thinking about how ridiculous her conversation was.

That is just odd her talking to you in court like that. Either she was trying to distract you in some form, or maybe she was hoping you'd take it easy, or maybe just trying to be nice. Who knows...it definitely wasn't the place for that.

Quote:

And I'm not ready to be nice. Maybe when I win the lottery, I'll be able to talk about meals and pizza.

I know the feeling. However, I'm not mean enough to hurt her feelings, so I'll just play along and talk nice...sometimes...

So for those of you who have known me since posting here as julie, know that my anger for husband has been a huge issue for me. Anger, along with my sense of justice prevented me from divorce busting. I saw my husband as an enemy. Some one out to do great harm to me. An opponent in war.

Now it feels as if the dust is settling for me a bit.

Today, I was able to get my STBX to agree to something financial based on honest communication. This small validation or acquiescence meant so much to me.

I ended up feeling this immense Grief instead of anger at the upcoming divorce which is set to happen soon. It's a senseless loss. And I am really really really sad that it came to this. Him and I had history. We were in our early 20s when we met. He knew me when I was in school. He knew me and my insecurities when landing my first job. I knew his struggles with cigarettes and over eating. I saw him cry when the ultrasound showed we were having a boy. I remember how awful it was and was there to embrace him the minute I found out his dad died. We knew each other's flaws and negative personality traits. We knew and laughed about each other's families. We agreed and still see eye to eye regarding many things, especially son. So I am very very sad that we could not make it work. I am sad because my engagement ring was beautiful, unique, and filled with sentiment. (I have never been attached or liked a material possession like that ring) I am really sad that this relationship is officially coming to an end and can't be salvaged. I do not feel enthusiastic anymore at the thought of a replacement or a new relationship.

And the sadness feels worse then the anger. The anger helped because it made me ignore the loss. It helped me to think that I was better off. That there would be some one out there more deserving, or more compatible. Grief makes me realize that there is an actual loss. For both me and my son and its senseless and huge and irreplaceable.

That's why the WAyward spouses are so angry at us. Because it makes it easier. I was angry for almost 2 years. And I didnt need it to justify leaving, just to make the loss less. The spouses that leave really need to rely on that anger.

I just don't understand wanting to end a marriage. Our marriage was not filled with abuse or betrayal. It wasn't ideal, but the issues were workable. I don't know if he truly wanted to end the marriage in the beginning, or if he just wanted space and things escalated because of all the hurt. I don't even think there was infidelity. Just lack of transparency and communication and secret debt.

But here we are. The very expensive lawyers are drafting up agreements. There is a huge part of me that would want for him to at this point say lets not do this. I know that's not something he would do at this point. He would say, too much water under the bridge. I understand why the coaches told us to be friends. That friendship is the only way it would be possible to salvage the marriage. It would have been the only thing to lower that water. But I don't think true friendship was possible with our amount of anger. I Think it would have been done with the intent of manipulating him back, but at a point when I was angry because he dared to leave.

I might be able to write him a real letter now.

I just want to give you a big hug.

This is it, everything you wrote. It's the exact process, and the exact truth. It's easier to hold onto the anger than to have to deal with the sadness. You are truly grieving and mourning. And you are doing so in an appropriate manner. You are working through it. And you are healing.

Give it the time it needs. But you are right on the right path, as much as it stinks now.

(((hugs)))

Originally Posted By: JujuB

And the sadness feels worse than the anger.

JujuB,

I know what you mean. I actually enjoyed the anger because it made me feel like a warrior. But the sadness stinks beyond compare.

Fortunately, I've been able to convert my anger and sadness into art, by way of home projects, and the art is a constant reminder that I'm strong and resilient.

I wish you the best regardless of the outcome.

Hi JujuB,

I'm not in a good place but I understand where you are coming from. I completely agree with what you are saying.

J, the post on my own thread talked of how I get the feelings of sadness and loss. Make time to sit with them. Don't run. But don't let them run you either. When you've heard what they have to say, make sure to steer your own ship and make time to enjoy the wonders sprinkled all around your broken life. We're all broken, so at least you have some good company.

Thank you guys.

It's funny. Last year I think that i too had the mind set of a walkaway. I was angry and filled with resentment. I fantasized about a better life with a better man and marriage. Lawyers weren't retained, Even though I was devastated, I had hope if not for my husband, for something better and was feeling ok about myself.

Right now, I'm in a bit of a funk. Now of course, how could I not be? I'm in the midst of the legal divorce process, I'm dealing with a son with special needs. I had an injury. I'm living with my parents. Reality has set in even more then in the past. I have so much to do, but I'm having trouble doing it. Whenever I see an email from my blood sucking attorney, my heart races and I don't want to respond.

I have to start over with the things that worked for me last year.
1. GAL. I have not done this and it impacted me. Tomorrow, I am getting dressed up and going out with friends for a birthday. This will be the first time in a long time. I feel good and hopeful when I socialize. I have been back to yoga pants mode and going under the radar and keeping to myself and this is not good for self esteem.

I have to balance this with my sons needs and that is not easy.

2. Exercise. I rejoined a gym and am slowly building back up.

3. I gained 7 lbs from my injury and really want that gone. I wish I could get back to where I was at initial BD. But that was actually a bit unhealthy. I would feel super confident with a 5 to 7 lb loss though.

4. Look into 2nd job when things calm down. I need to recuperate the loss in attorney bills. When we finish with all of sons testing I will have a better idea of my schedule.

5. I have to let go of harping over how unfair it is with ex. Life isn't fair. Ex is an @&$&. But that's the way it is. Move on.

Ju

This is the Kubler Ross process for grief. You were stuck in anger.

I stuck in denial together with sadness and have only just reached anger.

I see more denial than radical acceptance or sadness.

On the whole we keep moving forward and onwards.

You miss WAH although I note some ambivalence in it. You are a different person and have grown.

I read your self blame, running the what if scenarios. The oast is gone, the future is not yet here. Enjoy today, it is all you have, you have today.

I like your plans and today you can enjoy the actions you take to achieve them.

V

Ju, my dear....we've been keeping up with each other quite a while now, and I have to say I feel like a big sister to you and a couple others. I'm so proud of how far you've come, I've seen the growth in the past couple of months. You are getting to the place where your life is just going to take off with amazing. :)You are doing great.

Vanilla... I think you're right. Maybe some denial going on with me as opposed to acceptance. I am fantasizing about piecing,when its not even an option and quite clearly something husband does not want. I can't face dealing with the attorneys or process either. I just want to escape that portion of my life and not deal. And I just cycle right back to intense anger.

And here's the crazy thing. Why am I even fantasizing about piecing when it's not even something I necessarily want. I have no respect or attraction or positive feelings for my ex. I do love him, but I don't know if I could accept that he was capable of leaving. I never could which is why I was so unsuccessful about DBing.

Heres something I have been thinking about, although perhaps a better question for those in newcomers.

Let's say something spectacular was to happen in your life. Like you won a huge amount in the lottery, or you became a national hero, or gained much respect by discovering the cure for cancer. Or you found this treatment that made you look 50x younger, thinner, and more beautiful. And then your ex wanted to come back. Would you take them back?

how is this different then your spouse returning through you DBing and working on yourself?

Originally Posted By: JujuB

And here's the crazy thing. Why am I even fantasizing about piecing when it's not even something I necessarily want. I have no respect or attraction or positive feelings for my ex. I do love him, but I don't know if I could accept that he was capable of leaving. I never could which is why I was so unsuccessful about DBing.

Do you love him JujuB?

I struggled with this one for the first year after BD. I couldn't believe that I could love Mr Ex the way I did and still not be with him. I grieved that love, I felt the loss of him in every way possible, with every bit of me.

At some point though I started questioning what love is within a relationship. I was loved by him and I loved him. But to a degree I think that with love comes this sense we get for ourselves of being tied and connected to another. I realized that for me, somewhere the sense of security I got from being with someone, "in a relationship", in a "partnership" was much more personally satisfying than the alleged love that occured in it.

I think prior to Mr Ex bomb dropping me, I had lost all respect for him as a loving partner. He was self absorbed, needed adulation and lacked any ability to be empathetic. I think I fell out of real love for him when I realized these things about him. I believe my disappointment in him manifested in a deep depression. I tried to convince myself this man was worth loving. The brain really does struggle when the heart is telling you something else.

I feel that in the end though I was more in love with being a couple, more in love with the idea of sharing my life with someone and I wasn't going to give that up at any cost. I stayed too long because I had invested in him, in us and forever.

I am not really sure what I am trying to say, but I think JujuB maybe somewhere in all of this your sense of grief and loss is more for the marriage and relationship you committed to than the man you were married to. You're angry at the man who stole your marriage. The thing you did love and value. Your not falling out of love with him, but with this marriage that had brought you a sense of connection and family, of belonging and stability.

It is no easy thing JujuB to fall out of love with something that you invested your whole being in. And investing in and loving marriage is a worthy and wonderful thing. Don't minimise that. Be patient with yourself while you do so. There is no rush to fall out of love with it.

Being at stage in my new relationship where discussions of marriage are on the table, I am finding that I am beginning to know that marraige will only enhance what I have with the man I love. For so many years I was desparate to be married, desperate to be loved in such a way that someone would want me to be their forever person. I am sure it was desperation that ensured that marriage was not on the table. I don't feel that desperation anymore. There really is enough committment and love within our everyday relationship to sustain us into forever. That doesn't mean either of us aren't seeking the connection and security and trust that marriage will bring.

I am sorry I got a little side tracked with my own process. I really do wish I could, that the board could lighten this load you are carrying. I wish that you could put down all the questions and ruminating thoughts. I know for myself when I stopped needing to know the answers about Mr Ex and about the relationship and why it didn't last or work. I really began to heal. Trying to understand any of it is a wasted exercise.

JujuB, you may not have DB'd your marriage back, but you do have the opportunity to DB yourself back into your own life and your relationship with yourself. Start doing that and the healing begins and life gets so much easier.

Always here for you my friend. I'm never far away.

Much love as always

JellyB XXX

Thank you Sunny! I hope so. I usually feel better when the weather gets better. I'm not really sure how much growth I've actually done though. I was different in that rebound relationship I was in. I did not communicate my needs. I did not complain. Because that is what I did with ex. I just kind of failed to attach. It could also be because that relationship was just totally wrong for me too though, and I knew that deep down.

So really, maybe its just that each partnership has its own unique set of dynamics at play. Almost like a new job we have to learn how to navigate through. Sure, there are some of our own personal issues that we might have to change or we will be terminated, like showing up late, or arguing with your boss. But then sometimes people just get laid off for reasons that are unfair and out of their control, like they earn too much, ageism, company needs to increased their stock values etc.

My first job out of school sucked. I was underpaid and insecure and did not work well in the small, privately owned setting I was in. My boss was a mentor for me though while I was in school and I felt a loyalty to him so it was hard for me to leave, even though there was not much there for me. I left and took a new job without really researching or thinking it through.(side not, my ex was so supportive of me during this transition time

) It was awful and much worse then the job I had initially left. After a month I found the job I am currently in and I love it. It was just a really good fit. I have been there a long time and I really enjoy going to work. I deal with the few things that I might not love because the rest is really good. I generally feel valued and appreciated.

Hopefully my love life will follow suit.

This is a really good question Jelly. And I think some of the hardships you describe with MR. Ex, would fit me too. But I am sure that I too was self absorbed, lacked empathy, was needy, and lazy. I was in my early 20s when I met my husband! We were both extremely flawed and selfish. And if i could look back on some of my behaviors on a video, I would be very embarrassed.

I have been thinking about your question, and the truth is actually opposite of what you said...

I love my husband, just not our marriage. For some reason, our personalities did not allow for us to work well as a team. I don't really understand why. We never had a real marriage for me to mourn.

We recently had this really nasty sleety rain day. School and jobs were cancelled. I was worried about keeping son occupied all day long. There was a part of me that thought, how nice it would have been to have a snowed in day with my husband there. We could all cook together, do puzzles together, watch a movie. But that had never actually happened in the past. What would have happened is I would have been up early with son. Husband would have slept till 2 and then would have went out somewhere regardless of how bad the weather was. I would have argued with him to watch son for a bit, so i could take a nap. Maybe we would have spent 30 minutes outside in snow together if weather allowed.

Our marriage was not the marriage I wanted. But because I loved my husband, I could never walk away. He was family to me. He had a lot of flaws, but I loved him like I would a family member. I was often frustrated by him and his behaviors and we were always bickering. Similar to the dynamic I have with my son and with my mother.

I think it comes down to the fact that its just a lot of work to live and share a life with any one. And neither me or my husband had the tools or know how or perhaps willingness to make it work at the time. Or perhaps it was just 2 personalities that just did not mesh well.

You're right though in that I keep ruminating about finding answers and that by doing so, it might be keeping me in a downward cycle. Its hard for me to let go.

Hi JujuB,

Given that you still love your ex and still have regard for your marriage, is Standing an option? Is continuing to DB an option for you? Whatever your choices to stand or walkway, letting go is imperative. Detaching is essential.

Just an observation JujuB, you appear to battle and fight most things in life? What do you think? If this is true, how well does it serve you?

Much Love JellyBxxx

Jelly B what a great post. You have put into words what I felt. Like you said I think we are grieving a marriage and an investment not necessarily a man.

I hope you are keeping well JujuB.

Ju

My take is a little of Jellyb and a little not.

There are rose coloured glasses in this, those are wishful forward thinking rose coloured binoculars.

I am minded of the Serenity prayer, you can never undo a single thing you did, never unsay a single thing you said. It's done and can't be undone. Yesterday is done and tomorrow is not yet, all you have is today.

Your H wasn't a H. You can't change that, or by anything you can do, say or change in you. He slept in, he wasn't prince charming, a sharer, he lied about many things, he used smoke and mirrors. You have a challenging and charming child and he didn't play his full role. You love H and being with him means accepting him sleeping in, being other than a prince charming, not sharing, lying plus smoke and mirrors. Means illusion not reality.

You can't love him into something he doesn't want to be or have the need to be. You can't love his faults out of him. You can't love him to a magic future. This has to be let go and in this forgive yourself.

It's ok to love H, just love you more.

And it's ok to stand too, as long as you want.

V

If I won the lottery, the Gigalo most assuredly would want to come back. He wouldn't be coming back for me.

I am slimmer, and no longer the walking dead. This may cause him to want to come back. It's not coming back for me but how I look on his arm.

V

Honestly, it would never happen. I think in order for any type of reconciliation to occur the WS has to be extremely remorseful. And even then, it's tough. My ex has a lot of pride. He barely ever apologized throughout our relationship. He would never be capable of pursuing me. And at this point, I will never pursue someone ever again. I was the pursuer for a long time and he responded with a lot of cruelty. I feel humiliated and ashamed. Because quite frankly he was not worth that.

I am hesitant about forgiveness of many of these waywards. I don't want to find myself in the same situation 5 years down the line. My ex didn't just screw me over, he screwed over my parents. He was able to evade responsibility by exploiting them. He does that to his mother too. In fact if it wasn't for my parents, I would have honestly lost my job for all the days I needed off for my son. I live in a really expensive area. I would not have legally been able to move my son far away from dad, but I would not have been able to afford the area. I don't know where I would have lived.

One thing that really bothers me about my ex and is something that I can't let go of, is how he did not act in son's best interest....

Before he left he was preparing. He took me off of his health insurance and he was really pressuring me to go back to work full time. Son was only in preschool for about 2 hours a day. He was receiving special services in that school. Son has and had a lot of behavioral issues to the point that I am positive another care taker would have a hard time coping with. Now husband wanted me back full time for obvious legal reasons, but it would have truly been at the expense of son. (It would have required full time care from a baby sitter we did not know instead of mom and logistically would not have saved anything in terms of costs)

That's something I can't get past. He would have exposed son to risk of unknown care taker to put himself in more of a financial advantage.

I am not exaggerating the difficulties with my son. I can honestly say that if he was born to other parents with less patience or knowledge I think that there is a good chance he would have been brought up harshly..

I know I'm a bit all over the place but that's because my ex confuses me. (Like all of us) because there were good thingd as well.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

If I won the lottery, the Gigalo most assuredly would want to come back. He wouldn't be coming back for me.

I am slimmer, and no longer the walking dead. This may cause him to want to come back. It's not coming back for me but how I look on his arm.

V

Haha no doubt. Trulyrics!

But what's the difference between a spouse that was willing to walkaway and then comes back when the LBS "becomes the partner only a fool would leave" and a spouse that comes back at a superficial change like a lottery win or weight loss?

Their loyalty has conditions.

But then again maybe conditions are fair.

Ju

My point is this, waywards are entitled.

Actually because of wastefulness they don't end up with any advantage. They have a high need for resources of all kinds and don't care where that comes from.

It's a sink hole of need, a black hole of desire. Like trying to fill a bath with the plug out. Spending fulfils a need, a glamour need, a glittery trinket and toy need.

When I think of my aged pa with his desire to care for his W and his three daughters, I am proud. I look at the great dads and mums here who are generous kind and giving, I know there are thes3 folk in the world and I am so proud to count myself one of them. As should you be and your parents, you wonderful son is a very fortunate young man. He has heaven.

V

I'm having a rough time..

I realized I haven't let go. My ex, definitively had a girlfriend last spring at least into fall and not sure the current situation but it just devastated me. He had left the summer before that, so he has every right. He had every right to end our marriage. To end our relationship. But it still hurts terribly. I know every one here has gone through this tenfold. I always wondered but never actually had proof there was an affair. He still insists there was none. This would not be an affair either. It would just mean he moved on. And I am deeply pained and hurt. And started texting about whether he was cheating when we were together.

Really, really not good for me.
1. I still haven't let go
2. A large part of me wanted him to one day realize the error of his ways and come back filled with recourse.
3. Anger. That he is reliving our youth of going out to restaurants with another woman, while I am left to raise our son mostly by myself and needing the financial support of my parents.
4. Hurt that I was so easily replaced and forgotten and discarded.

I am also finding proof that he had what I believe could have been a serious alcohol problem for many many years. It's pretty much there in black and white, but I doubt myself. I was never much of a drinker and just didn't see it. And he was the master at secrets. And I was oblivious and consummEd with my own anxieties.

I feel similar to beginning of BD and don't know why. I am mad at his irresponsibility regarding money and his lack of priorities regarding son, I love him and worry about his health, I don't want him to be happy with another woman, I miss the good times with him, I often think he is void of any type of feeling or passion and wonder if an alcohol addiction made him that way.

I have been reading a bit of newcomers and there are so many posters back on here who saved their marriages only to have their spouses do this again.

Maybe it's a blessing when they don't come back because who wants to go through the pain of piecing and forgiving and unavoidable mistrust and insecurity only to go through all of this again?

Don't you think, it shouldn't be necessary to have to hide your anger (which is natural and normal) and be flirty or friendly to someone who had lied, betrayed, abandoned (not natural reactions) to have soneone want to be with you?

Once they leave it kind of shows that they are just not committed. Why would this ever change?

I really resented my ex after my son was born. It was hormonal and sleep deprivation and depression and my ex was not being fair about a lot of things. But neither was i. But I never left and I never cheated. I just dealt.

How can you go back to a marriage where you know someone is capable of walking out? Doesn't it set you up for a lifetime of walking on egg shells and knowing that your marriage is not based on committment but based on good behaviors and this demand for something that is not always possible?

Originally Posted By: JujuB

How can you go back to a marriage where you know someone is capable of walking out? Doesn't it set you up for a lifetime of walking on egg shells and knowing that your marriage is not based on committment but based on good behaviors and this demand for something that is not always possible?

JujuB,

I think those are very good questions.

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: JujuB

How can you go back to a marriage where you know someone is capable of walking out? Doesn't it set you up for a lifetime of walking on egg shells and knowing that your marriage is not based on committment but based on good behaviors and this demand for something that is not always possible?

JujuB,

I think those are very good questions.

It's funny J, you're preaching to the choir. For me it's beyond WAS's, as I look around the world we live in I don't understand why anyone would put themselves in this spot again with anyone.

I think people are just eternally optimistic. It's like people buying lottery tickets. The statistics say it's impossible, but hey, they're special, maybe it will happen for them. I think people see how long of a shot a permanent marriage is but just feel like it will be different for them.

I also think some people can just stick their heart out, they feel they'd rather love and try and get crushed again than to stay isolated and give up on their dream of companionship. I respect that. I just can't do it myself, at least not in the madness of today's world, at least not at this stage.

You mentioned I reminded you of the "I am a rock" song. It's funny, I was out of town a few weeks ago and I had some pot cookies with my best friend. Something I do every year or two to mix it up a little. Well, for the first time I truly realized how high the walls were up around me right now. It's hard to explain, it was like nothing could ever get close to me right now. I love my children and share my heart with them as best I could, but somehow I feel like if they were all killed in front of me I'd feel pain but I'd just shake my head and wait for my turn for the end as well. Something broke inside of me deep, deep down at bomb drop. It's like I realized how uncaring the universe could be and I was hurt more than I ever thought I could be hurt. Ever since then I just move forward and do the best I can but the idea that anything will ever be ok again has long gone. It's like I'm having a picnic in a graveyard, I'm enjoying my meal a few feet above the buried remains of my loved ones. It's fine, everything's fine, but in a weird twilight zone nightmarish kind of way.

I'd imagine that life might beat this out of me. My isolation doesn't impact anyone else and maybe at some point something clicks and I realize that I only have a few years left and I want to experience some pretense of love again in this world. But every time I wonder if that day will come I see signs of that wall, and I think to myself how there are millions of isolated individuals that die every year. It's very likely that I'll be one of them.

I feel ungrateful because I do see a sign that it's me rejecting the gift we've been given to share in each other's company in this world. But then I wonder if I really am rejecting that, or if it's the world around me that has made the choice to reject it already and I'm just abstaining from the monstrosity that the modern day pretense of marriage has become.

Well, I'm not worried about it. I still feel early in my sitch as I approach my 3 year antiverary. Who knows where I'll be in 5 years. For now I have to assume that the wall is there for a reason and my wounds were too deep to heal anytime soon, so I won't rip off the cast just yet. No big deal on my end.

But for you, I hope you think about this. I'm perfectly at peace right now with the idea of dying alone in a gutter somewhere with no one at my funeral, but you, I hope for more for you J. And in the end maybe people get back with their ex's not because they trust them, or even because they think things will go well, but rather simply because there is no better alternative that doesn't lead to deeper loss. There is no path to avoid the loss. In fact, maybe it's in the acceptance of this loss that we can finally start to let go of our expectations and the resentment that comes from them and start to be appreciative for what we do have. Instead of resenting our partner for leaving, we accept that there is no true or permanent love in this universe but that we get to make our own if we choose to, and it's that or nothing. And so we just shine a little light here and there. I think that's how most people can do it. So maybe being broken is the first step towards being in a spot where you can see the positive instead of just the difference between what you truly want and what is available.

In the end I'm not sure about your future, but I do feel like it's ok to feel pretty closed off for a while. You don't have to end up like me forever, but it is ok to spend a little time here while you grieve. Hang in J.

Zues126,

Your response seems a tad abysmal. I went through h3ll, but I emerged feeling like I'm ready to set the world on fire (in a good way). And that's just the issue; even if my XW wanted to return, I don't think she'd last more than 10 minutes because I wouldn't put up with her nonsense. I wouldn't put up with that crap from anyone, and I like that - a lot.

Doodler, I am not familiar with your situation. But from what I gather, you moved on from betrayal in what to me seems like a very healthy and practical way. I have to find your old posts and see how you did it

Zues

Maybe hope is really what we need instead of mindfullness? Thank goodness for Pandora, because without that hope how would we take risk? How would you ever make a sale without the risk of rejection, or loss, or being lied to or manipulated? You would need hope that it could go well for you, right?

Right now, my problem is that I feel hopeless and negative (no surprise). But I also know that marriages do work and survive. EVERYONE in my immediate and extended family is married. My parents drive me crazy but they are actually very sweet with each other. I also know and trust myself. So surely if I am trustworthy, then there has to be others out there that are just as trustworthy.

But my point is that, why would we do business with someone that once screwed us over all ready? I am not really sure about the correct screening process anymore though for finding a new companion. I am not really feeling motivated to look, although I do want love and companionship and a partner. I'm just kind of down right now, and would not even know how to be or act with someone.

I have been asked if I could still attempt true divorce busting. Change the environment with my STBX. Become friends, begin to flirt. Be patient. I am way to hurt and angry. And I do not want to be with someone that considered me DISPOSABLE! That, I think is truly what hurt the most. I have no respect or attraction for ex. I havent for a really long time. So I don't understand my difficulty in moving forward.

You talk about fear of loss. I have always had a fear of loss and death. To me, it is one of my biggest anxieties. And my ex's choice for an elective death is simply incomprehensible to me. I was so foolish when I was young. My first relationship was filled with very real abuse and control and infidelity and I stayed because I did not want to deal with loss. Right now I am also picnicking in a graveyard because I do not want to deal with loss. I am hurting myself and not really enjoying life or hope for a future because I cannot accept loss. My ex has moved on. He Wants the divorce finished and done with. He is friendly. Does not engage in fighting. Is pretty agreeable concerning son and co parenting.

Back during acute post BD, I remember my ex actually telling me "you are trying to resuscitate something that's already dead". How humiliating. Yet here I am still wanting something but i dont even know what it is I want.

Sandi recently wrote about 2 different types of people. I will find the post and put it on my thread. She had trouble understanding my type. The left behind type. i wish I was the other type. The type that could look at things rationally and just move on instead of the lingerer or pursuer or LBS. There is nothing noble in my refusal to accept the end of my marriage. I'm just some fool unable to pull out the life support plug on something dead.

Juju -- I would suggest that you look at it another way. Your M died. Your role in it, and a big part of your identity, died. These are legitimately horrible, traumatic experiences that require grieving. Everyone is different in terms of how long this process takes, and yours simply isn't all the way over yet. I don't read your posts as being written by someone who refuses to accept the end of your marriage. Far from it. You're just still in the grieving process. Keep on GALing, keep focusing on your own physical and spiritual development, and you will get there. As you go, you will cycle back and through all of the various stages of grief, but don't let that get you down. That's progress, because there are a finite number of those cycles. Each time, just tell yourself it's part of the process, don't judge yourself, and realize you're one crappy round closer to being truly free and on the other side.

Thanks JRuss

Is there another side? I just feel like it's never gonna get better.

I feel like everything is great for him and tough for me. A big part of me wants him punished. Then once in a while a small part of me feels different. I love him and I Hate him and I wish I was indifferent. I'm not in love with him. I don't feel attracted.
I HATE these feelings.

Finding out he was in a relationship last spring and possibly, probably still in one really bothered me.

Also the legal system feels really unfair to me.

I just want things to be easier for me. I'm tired of constant struggles. I want to feel motivated and hopeful.

Ok. Sorry. I know I've been spinning lately.

Seems utterly reasonable to feel exactly the way you're feeling.

There is another side; I'm sure of it. Anger, feeling it, acknowledging it, letting it be what it is (trying not to act on it, though) has to be worked through to get there, though. Why on earth would you not be angry? Who wouldn't be? We're taught to push down anger, and to try to force it away, but there's nothing wrong with anger. It's the emotional expulsion of all of the blame we originally (wrongly) put on ourselves when we first realized our Ms were over (or on life support). It has to be experienced.

I think wanting the entire process to be over is actually a good thing. That's a really good goal, and it suggests you're well and truly past the shattering and withdrawal phases, because when in those, there's just coping, and not always that, and there's certainly no ability to look forward. Just don't beat yourself up if, on any given day, you feel like you're backsliding. It's all progress if you want to be making progress. At least that's how I see it.

Originally Posted By: JujuB

Is there another side? I just feel like it's never gonna get better.

Juju.....you know me as well as anyone here does. Yes, there's another side, you see it in my life every day. You've seen me struggle with things, with the duck, with Mr P's parenting, adjusting to a new life. And you know I'm doing it. You can, too.

I know how you feel, I understand where you are coming from. But you are strong, you are capable, you are loving, you are an amazing mom. Hang on to those things. And let go of the anger, the desire for punishment, the bitterness, the spinning about why. You don't need those on the other side.

Thank you JRuss. Sometimes i feel like i am just going around in circles and I cannot seem to get out.

Sunny, I am always impressed with your strength, confidence, directness, and ability to act and move forward. And its funny I do frequently think of you as an example

I tend to ruminate and obsess. Im wondering if its more of a habit at this point. Like what would I be thinking about if not this? Hmm. Nope got nothing.

This spring I have to come up with other things to occupy my mind and life. That would be healthy. This is what I need to do.

1. Get the divorce finalized.
2. Take on second job of home cares while son is in school,
for extra money. This will give me flexibility, a new
skill set that is easy to obtain, and supplement my part
time job. It will also keep me occupied
3. Start socializing more. I was really lonely this weekend
and that leads me to feeling depressed and hopeless
4. Start dating. I felt better about ex and not caring what
he was up to when I had someone. It was fun dressing up
and being attractive to someone. It was nice having hope.
5. Pursue some interests. I tend to like to do physical
things. Now that ankle is mostly healed. Would love to
learn to surf and mountain climb and now that son is
getting older, I can do that with him.
6. Get back into yoga.
7. Decreased amount of time on these forums. I think
newcomers is unhealthy for me.

Things I did accomplish
1. Was able to get great resources for my son.
2. Am back in exercise mode, after my fracture. I have a 5
pound to lose goal. But I am trying to focus more on how
healthy i feel rather then on the scale. 5 lbs would in
all actuality not be the healthiest or really sustainable
and i have to remind myself that I don't have to be
perfect.

My travelling companion is 6 years old...

I came back from a short trip with my son who is getting older and easier to travel with. (Not easy) This little break was much needed. I felt more independent to be able to travel alone, long distant with him. I always wanted to have a partnership and someone to share things with and never had that with ex. And I found it really rewarding just doing it with son.

I spent time with my brother and his wife and it was so nice to see a really healthy relationship. The two of them are awesome people to begin with, but they both like to do things together. They both like to learn and have fun and take on challenges with each other. They both support each other with their own individual challenges as well. And they have experienced the worst of the worst hardships together so I know it can be done.

I remember trying so hard to get ex to do things with me. He just didn't like to. He really didn't want to spend time with me. I am starting to think There was very little he actually liked to do. His only interests were computers. There was really nothing he wanted to do except go out to eat, and I don't think it mattered with whom.

It's funny. But I don't have lots of good memories with spouse to really miss. I was basically just always trying to get him to want to be a couple.

I look back on his parents relationship and I can see how he was mirroring them. I remember back in the day thinking how I would never want a relationship or life like my MIL had, and that's what was happening.

So I am at peace with the ending of this relationship. In all actuality like my ex has said "nothing has changed for me".

Our divorce is getting very close. I am having a hard time accepting how poorly I will do financially. Lawyers have told me from beginning, that I was not in a great posiition. It really bothers me. And I don't know how to get past the unfairness of it. I know others have it worse though but I have this constant fear that I am being duped. Either husband just messed up financially or is hiding money. And the actual evidence seems to point to hidden debt. But I'm always paranoid.

How to get past this?

Hi Juju. I'm glad you were able to enjoy your needed break and that your travel buddy held up ok!

As I was reading your post, I found myself nodding my head in agreement. Theres a lot of similarities there. One thing that gets me is the financial piece. Now, I know with certainty that my ex hid funds for years so I'm stuck with a complete misrepresentation of his financial situation. i know you have a gut feeling, but sometimes those instincts lead you in the right direction. Uch- take care of yourself the best you can.

Its tough for me Pax. I suffer from anxiety and often build up scenarios in my mind. So i have to be careful.

In my own defense ex was being very evasive. Looking and remembering certain facts seems to indicate its just debt.
He is now being pretty cooperative, probably to save on legal fees as well. If he was cooperative and nicer in beginning, I would have looked at things with different glasses.

Our current state seems to actually be cooperative which is promising. We have absolutely no conflict regarding custody.
We were able to file jointly this year. It seems that I am the one that is agreeing to a bit less money to save court expenditures and this is where I am conflicted.

If I go to court the price of legal fees wont be worth much more then what I would actually receive (although it can be looked at as price ex pays will be more then he would have to give) So its a matter of do I want to drive the harder bargain for not a huge amount and not even a guaranteed amount...but a potential helpful amount considering as main custody provider (80% of time) i have less earning potential and my son does have special needs. As a licensed professional, his lawyer would have a very good chance at calculating my max potential earning equation into the calculations and I would lose money in court. Its all judge dependent I guess and an expensive option. Ex risks the chance that judge will order him to pay part of my legal fees, but also not a guarantee. It also will prolong tension and make for a harder coparenting situation.

I am looking at this very practically and keeping my emotions out of it but its hard because It is unfair. I question myself constantly. Should I have hired the more aggressive lawyer? Would they have bargained better for me? Was my lawyer realistic or not trying too hard or bad at bargaining?

I am under a constant state of tension and doubt.

I used to post on here as Julieh. When i first came on here I was consumed with knowing whether husband had another woman. It was awful. The not knowing.

Well there was so much I didn't know. I now have access to some financial Intel. It shows alcoholism dating way back. It shows very high cash withdrawals for years pre BD in very bad neighborhoods. It explains why no house. I discovered credit card debt.

Financial statements indicate that after BD, when I was on here obsessing that he was spending weekends in a town near me (not by his mom) which indicates OW. I remember my cousin telling me she would see him with a dry cleaner spare shirt in his car and never showing up to work on Fridays.

So it was financial infidelity, some serious addictions, and most likely OW as well. So much secrecy throughout our entire marriage and relationship.

I would never even know what it would feel like to be in a normal relationship!!!

I really feel traumatized. It's been 2 years almost. And I just feel like, how much more can I Take?

I just want this divorce to be over so I can move on. He is acting friendly with me. Like his old self and it makes me suspicious.

I honestly do not see how he will last long with his addictions and health issues.

On these forums, this type of behavior is par for the course.

But to me, it's a really really big deal!!!

And I know the advise is to just move forward and on with your life. I Know that rationally.

But I also felt this real need to know what exactly I was moving on from.
I needed these answers.

I'm a physical therapist. Often times we do treat people that do not have a definitive diagnosis. And a lot of the time it does help. It's a lot of identifying patterns. We end up treating the dysfunctions that we identify as opposed to the diagnosis.

But what happens if the symptoms of malfunction are from something systemic or visceral or an unidentified fracture? You can end up doing more harm.

My point is that Sometimes you just need the answers. What the hell Was going on in my relationship and why did I doubt myself? I put more trust in my ex then I did in my own perspective.
Why didn't I insist on answers? Why did I just accept what I knew was unfair behaviors?

Ugh. I'm just rambling. It's been a tough week.

More rambling why questions.

Why did I put so much trust and faith in him ?
Why can't my partners be as loyal and honest as me?
Why do I care so much about cheating?

Hi JujuB, sorry you are having a rough week. Getting more Intel and information can be stressful. When we D'd, I hadn't appreciated the financial information you got and I can remember poring over it and seeing the expensive chocolates XH bought and the trips he took and so on - ugh. I remember just getting to the point where it wasn't helpful to me and I dropped the scrutiny.

Just do enough to understand what your situation financially is and how you can best protect your interests - otherwise try to let it go.

Reading what you post about him. Sometimes people use unhealthy behaviour to cope with life and with themselves. It doesn't make our WAS a bad person, just that they didn't always make great choices. And that's on them of course..

If you spoke to your XH and sought answers, do you think they would be helpful? The stuff XH said to me by way of explanation didn't really help me at all as his narrative was so different to mine. He saw himself as a decent and genuine guy who had made some mistakes but really knew what he wanted now - a new family!

I saw him as a guy who chose to start dating while M and fell into an A with a coworker who was there and willing to become involved with a married man - with all the accompanying lies and deceit. To me decent and genuine is as decent and genuine does. But all of that is on him and that's his life now. Seeing his life and mine as truly separate now has really helped me. And the D finalising was a big step forward (in a positive way too...)

Mostly, we have to find our own closure - we don't get that from our former spouse. But for now, recognise that the D and financial process are causing stress and pain and practice good self care.

Xx

Thank you sotto.

I understand what you're saying
Sorting through the financial stuff is making me realize I was married to a stranger. I never understood, and would argue all these behaviors that I found really, really strange.

We go to court very soon. And I am scared. My lawyer was trying to arrange for ex to have son a bit more. She felt that since I needed more availability to work that it would be a fair option.

But we failed to really diagnose..."hey, why is someone so voluntarily uninvolved in their child's life?"

The high amounts of money taken out in bad neighborhoods (I'm talking 4 digits in a year in just 1 particular sketchy town that is not near where we live)
Really scares me because my so is 6. He's there every other weekend. I always thought he was safe and now I don't know what's happening. And how to handle. And I just found this info and I don't have a lot of time to act or get advice from the experts. .

Is this enough to get drug tests requested?

And that's just 1 sketchy town. High amounts from other towns as well. I'm sick.

I would be devastated if I was reading about detailed eexpenses involving affairs and yes I would definatly have to put a stop to it. It's the same as looking through Facebook. And I do feel horrible when i see something that makes me think OW as well.

But I think my ex"s ultimate mistress was drugs and alcohol. And I was naive to the behaviors. It was going on for so long. I adapted to these behaviors thinking they were just him. I was always frustrated because things weren't fair. He was absent and neglectful. I just argued and.resented but didn't take action to see out the whys. Which would have gotten me and maybe him help.

Right now, there is no more us. But we are signing something giving him custody that he has not even asked for and I need to reevaluate. I don't know exactly what I'm dealing with in terms of type of drug.

This can't just be swept under a rug any more when my son's safety is concerned. Which it always is with an addict.

As you'll recall my XW just made these same accusations of me last month. She couldn't have been further from the truth. Somehow she took some scraps of information and used it to extrapolate out a totally different universe. In fact, here's an excerpt from that email:

while we had an agreement to not do anything while we were trying for kids... maybe (miscarriage) that we lost was due to what you were on at night without telling me for 10 yrs! Seriously, the things I find out now, that shouldn't affect me and you probably laugh about..... they cause so much hurt. I trusted you and never hid anything. Ya we are divorced and 'done' in many aspects now. I still gotta say, I know people you do too, and the things I've heard and believe on top of taxes burning me, you having kids half the time that I lose from raising them during.... I wish you would explain cause it hurts so. I thought you were bipolar. Now looking back it could have been withdrawls, nothing of my fault. I'm feeling so decieved. I never hid anything from you. All I did was try to raise our kids and I wasn't good enough for you ever. Recently learned deceit burns me deep. Wft, really? The deceit I feel is substantial and I'd wish you came clear with me while we were married. Why hide that? It only made things worse. The fact you never told me is just horrible. I trusted you with my life and our kids. If your doing that caused our kids issues or the loss of (miscarriage),... these are the things you leave me with as an ex wife that was always open and honest with you. I can't believe you can hurt me so much now learning what I missed. But you did. Good for u. All I do is try to be the best person I can. A lot of good that does. I'm still in shock but it fits all together so much better. Why would you hide that from your WIFE, after she devoured her life to yoy,

This was total and complete nonsense. If I didn't have it in writing I wouldn't even believe it's possible for someone to have conjured all of this in their mind. And she's blaming me for her having the children half the time when the D was entirely her decision, and attacking me about her finances when I have been paying 100% of my income and living with relatives and going into debt to make the payments even my mediator told me were more generous than she thought was fair to me. Just totally twisted. And her constant diagnosing of me, when the only time I've ever felt crazy is when I was in that relationship and the further I move past it the more steady and solid I feel. And she ends by talking about how honest she was and what a good person she is, probably typing this with an unmarried OM passed out on my kid's couch while they are sleeping. OK, I'm done.

You mentioned a few things about after BD, being seen with a second shirt in his car, etc. I'll take your word for it, what someone does after they drop the bomb isn't really my focus right now. It's this rewriting of your marital history and how you intend to act on that incomplete information in ways that will impact your co-parenting relationship and possibly your child that concerns me.

J, no one knows everything about their spouse. At some point we are all just living with an alien creature wearing a mask of what we want them to be over their face, getting hurt when they don't act consistently with what we wish they were. Now you're flipping it and projecting this monster onto the same man. He is neither the guy you dreamed he was when you married him nor the monster you see today. He is just a guy with his qualities and his problems.

In the end it's your decision how you want to frame your failed marriage and I'll leave you to that as it doesn't impact anyone. I would just be very careful to start lobbing accusations around the courtroom. If there is a grave threat to your child then act on it, but ATM withdrawals from years ago doesn't make me fear for your child's safety. I had to manage when my XW came back from the hospital after attempted suicide and was black out drinking, and my L, DB coach and I all agreed it wouldn't be good to start a custody war with social services in the middle and dividing two families for generations only to take my child away from their mother. We watched the situation, and lo and behold, everything is fine and my kids have a good relationship with both me and their mother. Isn't that what you want?

I have ran the possibility in my mind that I am over reacting. That I am anxious and creating a history that does not exist. That I am using this to make a failed marriage less my fault and more his because it is am easy answer. And I really don't want to do that. The one thing in life i always seek from myself is being in reality and being self aware. And I get frightened at the thought that I might not me.

But where does the line cross between denial and enablement vs letting go? I feel like I was enabling secrecy and financial suspicions for years.

Your wife's accusations were based on what Exactly?
I think it must be awful to be accused of something you did not do and I empathize with you for that. Perhaps she was projecting? From reading in your posts, I quite honestly do not understand her accusations. You seem responsible with the children And you have been unbelievably generous financially. Your actions do not seem to meet what she says. Now I know this is an anonymous forum and we can portray ourselves anyway on here. But from what you write, her accusations seem off base and unjustified. To me, she seems like she is always looking for something to get mad at you about. Whether it be an old miscarriage or not dressing your daughter to her standards. I know that she herself was am addict, and I know that an addicts brain changes.

I am not your wife. You are not like my husband. At least I don't think so.

I do understand how our own experiences make us suspect to others though. I know any divorced man I meet, I will be suspicious of. I will assume he left her the way mine did me. I know i assumed the worst of a really lovely poster on here who was engaged to a divorced man.

My ex would not give me child support. My ex did not want much child custody. I pushed him to take on more. When we moved in our old place, I was getting calls at work to come pick up son from preschool because my ex slept through alarm clocks at 12:00pm. My ex did not wake up till 2 in afternoon and was up all night. He was constantly disappearing to run errands. He would leave work at strange times and now I know he was leaving work to visit the far away sketchy towns to take out money. He was constantly in the bathroom.

During my first miscarriage, my ex screamed at me the whole way in the car to the hospital because I got mad at him for not waking up to watch son cause I wasn't feeling right. He screamed at his mom too because she came over and was trying to yell at him to wake up and get me to the hospital.

My second miscarriage I had to induce and he went to work and got mad at me when I called him and was upset. With that miscarriage I had been diagnosed with cancer and had to go for a surgery with only local surgery..2 days post surgery he woke me up at 7 30am because he needed to sleep and told me it wasn't even generalized anesthesia.

While married, my ex would not let me see his finances. I had no idea even what his exact salary and take home pay was. He would deflect and we would argue when i tried to make sense of it and so I just gave up.

Did you do any of this? I am not your wife getting upset over minor and silly things zues. I am not imagining this stuff.

I am very stable and hard working and rational. I am pretty intelligent. I am and have never had an addiction issue. I am well grounded. I have my flaws and I'm not denying them but I feel like in all my relationships (2 of them ) I have given the benefit of the doubt to my partner. I always doubted myself and my perceptions. And felt that others knew better. That ultimately I was wrong and over anxious. I blamed my ex"s reactions on me. I constantly go over and over in my mind and on here the things he did because They were wrong and I have to see that on paper or i doubt myself.

I don't want to keep doing that because I know something is really really off.

People tried to tell me the same thing with my son when he was having all these behavior issues. I pursued anyway and now he is getting great help and the same people that thought I was exaggerating are now asking me to teach them the tools I have learned to help my son.

My accusations are based on seeing c.c. statements with consistent 200 to 300 dollars per month from various liquor stores. There is a total of 17,000 from just 1 year of marital funds withdrawn from ATM in just 1 remote and bad neighborhood. That does not include other remote and bad neighborhoods. There is unexplained credit card debt that goes along with it.

To me, this is very scary and something to address.

At the very least he was depleting marital assets. Trust me. I would much prefer that be the case.

I don't have the hard core proof like a black out or OD because of the secrecy involved and because he was not around.

There is nothing I would like more then to know that my son is safe with him every other weekend and 2 weeks in the summer, because for me that is a nice break and time for myself.
If there is an issue, it makes things much more difficult. I am not wanting that or looking for it. But I do need to know my son is safe.

I don't know how to do this in a way that will make for positive relations. Nitnit is the goal. And so far I have done nothing yet.

I just feel like in our relationship and even in initial marital counseling i was written off as being over anxious.

But now I'm discovering that my anxieties were actually my intuitions and why the hell wasn't I taking them seriously? And why did everyone doubt me?

I think it's because of how I come across sometimes? I want so bad to be fair to others and humble myself but it makes others see me as weak or as wrong.

I need to project myself better. Speak with more authority maybe? And I will be taken more seriously. I jate those types of games though.

Quote:

Your wife's accusations were based on what Exactly?

Totally out of left field. I took some speed pills once in 2012 during a 72 hour pool gambling challenge match. This was years after my last child was born. Prior to that I hadn't taken anything like that since 2003 before we met. There was a two month period just before I met her that I binged once or twice playing pool all night. But after I met her I didn't do anything like that other than that one incident. So somehow she heard a story about either that match or something that happened in 2003 and constructed a 10 year addiction that was responsible for our miscarriage and the problems in our marriage.

But here's the thing. I don't really care anymore. She's on her road, I'm on mine. I'm moving forward. The only thing I care about is that my children have their mother in their lives. She has her problems but is a very good mom to the kids.

See, there are three main phases of our relationship: Our marriage, Post BD, and today moving forward. They are totally different. What I would say is that she had her problems during our marriage and I had mine. But we loved each other deeply and did our best in our own way which was fraught with shortcomings. It is unfortunate that our marriage was terminated prior to working through our problems. Then when BD hit she went a bit insane. I think it's safe to say that her behavior the last 3 years has been truly bat $hit crazy. But I am focused on moving forward. And the kids are fine so beyond that nothing else matters.

So we can talk about what happened during your marriage, we can talk about what he did post BD, but the most pressing issue is what you choose to do today. Focusing just on what you do today I don't know that lobbing out accusations, hashing up marital problems and suspicions or theories of addictions or mental problems, and questioning his ability to take care of your child is going to be the best play. While it would be nice to get validation, apologies, clarification, and closure from WAH, that isn't going to happen. What's more important is that your son has the opportunity to grow up with both parents in his life and a lack of drama. Again, if you feel there is serious immanent risk for your son spending time with WAH then talk to your lawyer or an IC to get a professional opinion. Just present the facts and see if they are equally concerned and feel there is a reason to take such decisive legal action. If they do, then do what you have to do. But J, removing the father from a son's life is a pretty monumental step to take, the same as I was faced with. The risks would have to be evident to my team of professionals before I would take that course. Outside of this we can debate all day long about the past, but this was my main point.

Now that that's set aside for now, if you want to rehash your marriage you can do that. But I've said it before and I'll say it again. There isn't a person on here that can't take their ex's most horrible moments, create a highlight reel out of them, and build a case that they were a monster. So seeing some shocking footage of your WAH's tirades doesn't shock me to the core. Obviously that was him at his worst during the dark hours of your marriage. Yes, it is truly deceit that he was spending that type of money without your knowledge. But you know J, some of the very few marriages I know that are good have gotten through much, much worse. I know a happily married couple in which the husband was in a public adulterous affair for five years while they were married and she somehow waited it out. He ended it and is back with her, and they have another child now. I know another man who was alcoholic and partied it up during out of town pool tournaments. 10 years of that but a few years ago he cleaned up his act and has been totally recommitted to his marriage and seems to be a model husband. In fact this used to really upset me, I look at what these two did compared to what I did in my marriage and I would get outraged that XW walked on me. But my point is that I believe that almost all marriages go through hardship. Had your WAH not left and you had the opportunity to work through things there is a chance that some of these things would've been blips on the radar in a lifelong marriage. So I'm not sure you have to make them his legacy. In fact, in saying this, both of these marriages were gone past where yours is at one point. I don't know there is anything wrong with continuing to DB and being open to the possibility of a universe in which this isn't the end. And that as you know is all about detachment and letting him go on his journey, and for you to work on your 180s which seem to be about anger and control.

I do agree with what you've said about trusting yourself and being firm in what you know is right. I've written about this a lot on my threads, how I used to abdicate my power because I used to second guess myself so perpetually. But I've learned that compared to what I see when I look at the rest of the world I have healthy beliefs that I feel strongly about, and I have the ability to lead my family with a calm authority. This doesn't mean that I am not open to hearing my choices or outlooks challenged and that I wouldn't need to course correct at times. But I have learned to trust myself and frankly I'm darn proud of how well things are going since I've done so. So I think you can say the same thing. It's ok to trust yourself. You're right that WAH had problems because he was human, you're right that he made some bad choices. You know you did as well. In the end the only irreversible decision was his choice to end the marriage. That I don't agree with. But it's done. So go ahead and sort through this here and there, let it go, trust yourself to lead forward, and that all starts with making the right choices for your son today.

As for your WAH's lack of involvement with son and reluctance to pay support, I am not totally surprised. In the short term I think this is pretty typical given the circumstances. See, he wanted to get away from you. That was it. He just wanted out. Free from your control. He was running. In his mind your son was a way that you could continue to control him through the legal system and if he didn't do what you demanded people with guns would show up to force him to. I'm not suggesting he doesn't have an obligation to provide for your son. My only point is that his reaction to try to get as far away as possible and acting uncooperatively fits the picture of a wild animal running uncontrollably away from something terrifying it. That's why he flew off the handle when you involved the courts for spousal support. Of course he was being unreasonable. Yet he was hurt and terrified beyond reason. It wouldn't surprise me if once things settle down your WAH will realize how much his son means to him and he'll start wanting more time with him and stepping up as a father. He just needs to get far enough away to see you aren't chasing him and tugging at his leash. Which is why I think bringing up the past or criticizing him for his lack of involvement with son now would only keep him running from you. Just let the man be and when he realizes he's not being chased or prodded anymore he might turn into a decent father. That may sting because it doesn't fit a narrative that means everything was his fault or that things are better off without him, but in the end it will mean that your son gets a good father. And I think that's the most important thing right now. Plus, it also means your son will have a great example of someone handling a hard situation with a ton of class. And it will feel really good to look in the mirror and know you have risen above it all. I know, because that's how I feel.

Maybe secretly I'm also rooting for you to let some of this go because it is so rare to see someone on these forums look back years later and say their D was a loss. Somehow it's unanimous that everyone's XH and marriage was bad and they are glad it's dead. Can you think of any posters that while their XH and marriage had problems they wish it hand't have ended? I guess I was hoping you'd have been the first.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Can you think of any posters that while their XH and marriage had problems they wish it hand't have ended? I guess I was hoping you'd have been the first.

Zues, have you forgotten all about me? Yes, I wish my m hadn't ended. I wish we had stayed together and worked our way to a better place. Because it would have been better for my kids, because that's what I promised to do, because I wanted to grow old with the man I married at 25. I've spelled out that before, I'm surprised at your post.

Does that mean I'm not happy now. Nope. I am, in fact, happier than I was married. The last few years anyway. But that doesn't mean I'm glad it ended.

And by the way, the rest of your post was excellent.

Zues, I'm surprised at your claim, too - I wish my M hadn't ended. It wasn't my choice to end it and I fought it as best I could. If WH had put effort into it, we could have been happy.

On Juju's situation - I don't see her 'rehashing the M' or hanging on to drama or anything like that. I see her looking out for her son's safety, along with perhaps getting an explanation for the odd behavior that has been going on for years.

Her ex's secrecy about finances and the disappearance of money has been a huge issue during their M, and now she's finding information during a legal financial discovery process that indicates he spent tons of money at liquor stores and frequently took out cash in dodgy neighborhoods. Yeah, alcohol and drug abuse is a pretty common reason for money disappearing. I don't know about you, but 17k is a lot of money for most people.

If her ex drinks and does drugs, that directly influences the custody situation because her son could be put in danger. She should not sign papers about custody until this has been discussed.

It's great that your ex didn't continue with her destructive behavior and got help - and that's the key, right? She got help. Juju's ex isn't getting help, and he needs to. Her son deserves to keep his father until he's an adult. People die from drugs. I just lost a friend my own age to contaminated heroin. He worked and kept his usage a secret. He left behind wife and children, lots of hospital bills and no life insurance or other benefits.

I am not constructing an addiction. It has to be one. there is no other explanation for what was going on. I asked him about the cash withdrawals. I felt I had the right to. They were so insanely high. We could have had a home. He started saying how it was his money and he could do whatever he wanted with it and that he never looked at how I spent my money. He pointed out that he always met his responsibilities. And I agreed with that point. He deflected and turned things on me. I pointed out that he was doing that. For a moment I thought it was me, but he told me he would refuse a drug test. (neither of us were yelling. It was actually a calm but surreal conversation)

like you, I find it hard to believe that someone could bail on a marriage based on the things I did yet read about people that pine and wait for their spouses who have treated them in the worst way. More importantly I want to know that my son is safe. I worry about stories I hear about involving car accidents with children killed or seriously injured because the driver was not sober. I worry that it is child endangerment to not do anything. I would have nothing to live for if something was to happen to my son.

I have no intention of trying to hinder any relationship between my son and his father. I Never criticize ex regarding his role as dad because I know that could have the opposite affect. I only say things positive to him regarding son and them spending time together. For son's sake, his dad needs to know he plays an important role in his life and I am good with that. When i said, i pushed for it, I meant more that i encouraged additional 2 hours time spent but in a nice way and it is working out for everyone involved.

And I realize I have to be careful. I am not trying to jeopardize ex and his career and standing. I am not trying to humiliate him with something that is a disease. If it is something and it really looks like it is, I would want for him to get help. I still care about him but in a love/hate sort of way. I dont want to look back with regrets if something were to happen. (like I could have prevented this, if only I did something)

For me, I would have stayed with my ex through anything except for sexual infidelity. I would have looked past the addiction and financial infidelity. And yes, I like your comment about my spouse's actions being blips of human nature, because I do recognize that I have them too. and it reminds me that its ok to forgive him but also myself (something jelly once told me). But my ex wanted out. He did not want us. I think his limited involvement with son has little to do with me and perhaps more to do with what he was exposed to and the addictive behaviors. (he disappears frequently, which is something you really cant do with a young child)

I think about the blips because like most of us it is hard to think about the loss. No one wants to admit to loss. Of course it is a loss. Especially when the person is the parent of your child and the person you grew up with.

Being on these boards makes me not trust partners once they leave once. We have talked about this before. And your response was interesting. That it would be better to be with them and deal with a bit of dissapointment about what happened and with who they are instead of not with them at all. And I get that. I really do. Because its a way to avoid or prolong death. I still dont want to pull the plug.

Regarding letting go. I want to let go. But i need to know what im letting go of. There was just so much secrecy in my situation.

Update: He just texted me and we are cool. He did not admit to anything or deny anything but agreed that son is important as is his safety.

It was a lot more then 17,000. over 6 digits in 3 years. And even more, because i only know about 3 years. And this figure is exclusive of the liquor stores.

I am not sure what to do.

You are right Painter. He is not getting help and needs to for everyone's sake. But What if this gets worse? Addicts lie and they see things differently. I cant trust him.

I agree with sunny and Zues, in that I want Ex and son to have a good relationship. I do not want to humiliate in court. It is better for everyone involved to let go of uncontrollable stuff like money lost and just focus on making things better. It is better for me spiritually. But i also dont want to enable.

I am not going to lie, I am a bit worried about you. You are obsessing and going in every direction and you are allowing yourself zero peace.

What are you looking for? I feel like what you are looking for you may never find and you are a young beautiful woman who is going to take time out of what could be such a beautiful life looking for justice and answers and punishment and Id on't know what else.

Safety for your son of course is #1. He wanted minimal time, you were not too happy about that. Now he might be an addict, so the consequence of that is probably no time if he doesn't chose to straighten up. So if you truly believe there is some sort of addiction, then you need to find the smartest way of going about this. If you truly aren't worried about the time your S is with your ex (you did mention it's pretty much his parents watching him) then don't pursue anything.

I read your posts and there is nothing more I want for you than peace. I think you are looking for it in all the wrong places. Take it from someone who has walked those shoes. It pains me to see you miss out on the great things life has to offer on something you simply cannot change.

Ginger, I don't think you need to worry.

It's very difficult to be deceived in a M. You can feel for the longest time that something is wrong, but you can't put your finger on it. Your questions are met with denial and stonewalling. It can drive you crazy. You look everywhere for answers. This is the life of the partner of a secret addict.

At this time, it sounds like Juju has figured out what all these years were about. The hidden financials were hidden for a reason. Finding out about the deception is a process and will most likely make her feel enormous relief. The pieces are falling into place and even though the picture that's appearing bring a different kind of sadness, at least she knows that her instincts were right and she wasn't crazy.

Please support her in finding closure.

If this was a mistress she had found out about, after feeling that something was wrong for years, would you have been worried about her? Addiction is the ultimate mistress.

Originally Posted By: Painter

Ginger, I don't think you need to worry.

It's very difficult to be deceived in a M. You can feel for the longest time that something is wrong, but you can't put your finger on it. Your questions are met with denial and stonewalling. It can drive you crazy. You look everywhere for answers. This is the life of the partner of a secret addict.

At this time, it sounds like Juju has figured out what all these years were about. The hidden financials were hidden for a reason. Finding out about the deception is a process and will most likely make her feel enormous relief. The pieces are falling into place and even though the picture that's appearing bring a different kind of sadness, at least she knows that her instincts were right and she wasn't crazy.

Please support her in finding closure.

If this was a mistress she had found out about, after feeling that something was wrong for years, would you have been worried about her? Addiction is the ultimate mistress.

Painter, I've met juju a few times personally, I support her very much. She is a great wonderful beautiful woman.I'm not minimizing her feelings. I was deceived too. I lived with a mother who was an addict. Even though I knew my ex was having an A, it wasn't until he was engaged to his A partner did I find out it actually started in my pregnancy. It was like bomb drop all over again. I get it. Her recent discovery is a deception and a painful one at that, surely. I just hope for her more than anything at a point she allows herself peace. There comes a point where the if's and's could have should haves prevent us from enjoying our lives. We become prisoners. That's what I was speaking to. Not so much the recent revelation itself.

JUJU, I don't mean to speak to you as if you aren't in the room, lol, I was just responding to painter. But Painter brings up a good point. Maybe you figured out what was going on that left you questioning so much. Even though an awful discovery, I hope maybe you found some answers that kept you going in circles with the all the questions.

I'll respond later, I just can't be on my phone at work.

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