Yesterday, I discovered I really was not. It's been 5 yrs since ow entered our lives, 4 since the Bomb, 3 since the divorce has been final and 2 since I've been in a committed relationship with a man I want to spend the rest of life with.
This is what happened. At dinner Monday night my daughter casually mentions that her dad and Slutila are going to Boston this weekend and staying with our friends Chuck and Joanne, that her dad has been going to counseling, has "changed" is not as angry anymore and that things between him and Slutila going really well now.
Man did that hurt! It REALLY REALLY bothered me! I didn't say a word to my d. and just listened. It bothered me last night and Clark and I talked about it, I cried last night before going to sleep, and it has bothered me all day today.
It bothered me and hurt on many levels. While he was in med school and I and grad school and had like no money, it was "our thing" to go to the Esplanade July 4th picnic all day and stay to hear the Boston Pops free concert and watch the fireworks. Our son was 3 yrs old the first time we went and we did so for the next 4 yrs we lived in Boston. One of the cutest memories of my son was being in Disney when he was about 4 and him excitely yelling "look, look the Boston Pops!" His father and I were looking around for an ochestra while our son looking at the fireworks in the sky. We then explained to him that those were "fireworks". Is nothing sacred? Why must he take the the ow there? This was something that belonged to our family!!! Why is he going to Chuck and Joanne's house with her? Joanne and I were pregnant together the last year our husbands were in medical school. Her son was born the first week of June and my d on the third week. With both of us very pregnant, we kept each other company, (in the pre cell phone days)"just in case" while the two of them went to the Garden to watch the celtics and the lakers in th 84 finals. So many special memories with the two couples, and now the slut gets to be a part of that? Both of us loved our time in Boston and often talked of maybe go back there to live one day. They will be going I bet to all the same places if I know him, to Steve's ice-cream in Sommerville, to Filenes basement, the list goes on.
Then there's the whole thing with him finally recognizing he has a problem and going to counseling, on his own, so he doesn't lose the ow. Great. He's doing what he never did for our marriage for a filthy slut who has broken up two families. This really bothers me. It has made me feel once again worthless. I had not felt like that in four years. What the hell was wrong with me that he could not do this for us, for our marriage and family, but can do it for her? I gave that man everything I had and then more. It was never enough.
Here comes the confusing part... Why do I feel this way? Why do I even care? I really don't want him back. Why then do I feel as I do?
Our d. had a b party last Sat night. Friday night he takes her out to dinner, asks her if I'm doing anything for her b'day, knowing full well that I am, because he knows me well enough to know that I ALWAYS do something for my kids birthday. When she tells him that I am having a pool party for her Sat. night, he invites himself and then asks Slutila to come too. Slutila declines saying she has to work. (She wanted to come about as much as I would have wanted her here and he is so dense he still doesn't get it) Anyway, he shows up. This was a night pool party for 19 yr olds, that even my 25 yr old son and his wife were out of place. So he hangs out with my mom, Clark and me, eats dinner and asks my mom to make him expresso, which she does like old times. It was not a bad evening at all, in that we were all civil. My son, might have been uncomfortable, because he basically spent most of the night playing video games with some of my d. friends, but then again he is a videogame nut so that could have been the reason, more than having his dad and I in the same room. Who knows. My son is the one that doesn't talk much about the divorce or his feelings about it.
That night at my dining room table, I had the opportunity to look at both him and Clark as they were talking. Believe it or not, it was not all weird. I looked at them together and thought to myself, how never in a million years would I have believed such a thing could happen five yrs ago. I had no feeling for my ex and had all the warm fuzzy ones for Clark. I guess this is why for me, it is so confusing why I would even care about what my d. said Monday night.
I don't think it would bother me as much if he did these things with someone else. What bothers me is that he does it with HER, the woman that was my friend and betrayed me, and the woman that contributed to the break up of my family. All day today this is what has bothered me. I thought I was over this crap. But I'm not. I was telling Clark, that if he ends up marrying her, I don't know if I can give up my alimony. I can't have her benefit in any way shape or form from all of my years of sacrifice or hard work. If he doesn't send me the alimony, he'll spend it on toys for himself and on her. I want to be able to help my kids and grandkids down the road, and lets face it as a social worker with the school system I can't. Many years ago I made life-altering decisions based on a life contract. I did not pursue my career of choice which would have been lucrative, for us, because in my mind it didn't matter who did what, we were a team forever. So I gave up my dreams to support him through medical school, residency and as an army wife. I moved all over the country over and over so that even in my career of second choice, I was never ever anywhere long enough to qualify for retirement. It didn't matter, because I was married to a doctor, I had the supporting role, marriage was forever and my kids and I would always be ok. RIGHT. I bought into a lie. Marriage is not forever. In this country, it's for only as long as it feels good.
So yes, it still hurts, I still very much have baggage I have not let go of. I am also one very very lucky woman, because despite all this, I still have a wonderful man in my life who loves me unconditionally. This man wants to marry me, I won't do it, and yet he still wants me. I won't do it because of the alimony and because of my religion. I'm catholic, and it will be meaningless unless there's annulment first. I could probably technically get one, if I tried, since a priest already told me I had a good case. The problem is that after my ex told me that when he got married he knew what he was doing and it meant forever, I don't think it would the right thing to pursue. So I guess I'm trapped by the past. Once again, my ex gets to do whatever the hell he wants. He doesn't have to worry about losing alimony, doesn't like it that the Church would hold him accountable, so he becomes Episcopalian. Once again, the rules don't apply to him.
I don't know where I'm going with this or if there are any solutions here. If anyone can shed some light, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Mary,that's a long post.Get it out of your system.
look at it this way.He thought so much of going there with you.That he feels he can get the same results(a womans love)by repeating what has worked in the past.
5 years and still part of you hurts.Are we ever healed completely?I dont know.theres always a small part that hurts.I've often wondered if I will ever be able to love as deeply as I did for my x.
But I will say,that you should wish him well.And mean it.Very hard to do.maybe with time.
we've come a long way from 5 yrs ago.But there is still a part of me that hopes she falls on her face.And yet she's still in my heart.Though it's a very very small part.You need a micro scope to see it.I think that true love never dies.
Mary: I read your post with tears because I know exactly how you are feeling and it is the pitts! You and I are about on the same time line as far as when our world started falling apart. Just recently I thought I was there as far as being healed. I, too, can look at my X and unfortunately the warm fuzzy feelings aren't there. Yes, I still care about him, enjoy being able to talk to him and enjoy that he comes to visit the kids etc. But you know what - I don't think the deep buried love will ever go away and there are still going to be situations or things that come up that can still rip at our hearts as they did 5 years ago.
Mine was here 2 weeks ago and we were discussing going to an away football game - I was struggling which one to go to and turns out he will be going to both with her and one game will be staying with a guy that stood up in our wedding. My heart stopped. I'm thinking how can this guy let them stay at his house. That should be me yet I don't love this guy and live with him so this shouldn't bother me right? WRONG! The only reason they two of them had contact is because I let on to our friend in a Christmas card his new whereabouts. I guess regardless the pangs of jealousy and all that we truly lost will haunt us forever in little things along the way.
The feeling that I experienced the other week scares me because how fair is this to a new person in my life? I don't know that I could discuss this with that person and expect him to understand? Perhaps I will cross the bridge when I come to it - no sense putting the cart before the horse. I will say though Mary - you have one outstanding man in Clark that he loves you that much that you can unload on him like this and feel comfortable talking to him about situations as this. I hope I have that ability someday to feel comfortable to share feelings about my past with someone else in my life.
Mary - just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. Perhaps what hurts you more down deep is the fact that he is taking slutila to long time friends home - someone that you share so much history with. I hope yo don't hold it against them as it can be natural to do. My guess it will be very awkward for them - and your X won't get it at all!
Hang in there my friend!
Missy
Mary, I just had to tell you what jumped out at me from reading your post. Your ex is reliving your life together, trying to replace YOU and it shows that he misses that life he had with you. You can't just replace the people and make it work! What an idiot. Even the counseling, it's like he's doing what he knows he should have done with you. In a way, it tells me that it's YOU he's not over. These men are so crazy, they really think they can do it over the right way, just put a different face on it. As to the OW, I wouldn't want to be in HER shoes trying to live up to this "replay" scheme of his, trying to keep him happy being a version of you, would you? All the counseling in the world isn't going to do it, and IMO, he will revert right back to his old, dissatisfied, unhappy ways. Counseling to me is like a diet, it's great while you're sticking to it (and don't you think it's troublesome that he's in need of counseling with her so soon)! So don't be too ready to fall for the charade, it won't last. I'm betting on it.
Mary...I am behind you on the timeline, as I am not yet D, but can still very much identify with your feelings. You were married for a long time , have tons of memories together, and it's only natural that something like your ex taking slutilla to places YOU went with him and staying with old friends of YOURS would cause you to feel this way. I am sure it's a shock to you, because you "thought you were over it", but it must just bring back to the surface the hurt and the betrayal that you went through 5 years ago. All I can suggest is to feel it, work though it, and then move on....which is all any of us can do. You have a very healthy attitude about it. And, you have great man in Clark that you can discuss your feelings for ex with him and he is not at all threatened by it. Just remember, that you did not abandon your family, ex did. You were willing to go to C, he was not. You did all that you could do. You hold your head high knowing that....and keep on keeping on...your posts have been most helpful to me and you are very inspiring to me. I know I don't have any answers for you, but I am here to offer my support and encouragment. TC
Mary,
Is this not unlike what my ExW feels when she thinks about my GF living in what was once "our" home?
She doesnt want me...but it hurts her ( or pisses her off)...that I now have a GF living here.
She once sent me an email stating "my ghost is floating all through that house. We have made love in every room...and I hope you remember that. Your GF will never be comfortable there. My ghost will always be there."
Weird stuff, coming from someone that chose to leave.
Heck.......all she had to do was come home.
Like GF says: "She doesnt want you, but doesnt want anyone else to have you, either."
ExW even made reference to my "taking those whores out in OUR boat" in another email. I guess it's natural, though....to a point.
I didnt really like the fact that she took her new man to our favorite mexican rest't hangout after the D...and joined "our" friends in an evening of drinks.....I mean after all.....the rest'rt owners are MY CLIENTS....geez ! That bothered me......but only because I didnt want to run into her there. ( which I did....with my current GF...long ago...but it IS my client's place of business)
So I just started going to another location of the rest'rt chain. At first I thought it meant she still cared about me. But now I think it's the "familiar"....that she cares about.
Normal....I'd say.
BTW...it sounds like you have a pretty good guy there, Mary !
BM
Mary, I don't have time to read the replies from the others. I'm on my way out. Just wanted to say I'm sorry you are feeling this pain again. I'll be back because I need help in this department also. I hope today is a better day and please, know that what you are feeling is normal.
Cathy
Hi
Haven't heard any stories recently that would test my healing but in the early days my ex took his forst g/f to our honeymoon town, and a subsequent g/f the ow he is now living with, to our old home, to a hotel we had stayed at a couple of times on hol abroad to the only place we went to abroad together!! I decided he was very lacking in imagination and initiative!! They hurt at the time but I can laugh at it now.
I don't have a male friend in my life at the moment but it does beg the question when I do , should I avoid places that my ex and I went to together or not??
Jante
MaryC2, it's like when something happens or you hear something, it hits ya like a ton of bricks -- like all of it just happened yesterday, our wounds become fresh again. But with time, those wounds heal so much more quickly. What was days or even weeks become hours or maybe even a day or so...and we put it on the back burner yet again. For me, and I would say for others too, it is harder because we were left. I left someone I had seen for years because of repeated patterns of selfishness and unthoughfulness. But boy, did I love him, was in love with him...and while I thought about him often and felt pangs of hurt about our past, I never felt the way I do now about someone who left me. There is just something about it that lingers on...but remember, they are so much more confused than we are, and quite frankly, I'm not sure they ever achieve what they want because they don't know what they want. I wish I had a magic potion for everyone here to help us forget, but that isn't going to happen. This too shall pass, and you have someone in your life that will help you with that. And BM, your statement is right on with alot of WA's - they don't really want you, but don't want anyone else to have you. And if they get you back because of this, it would never, ever last...
Hey Mary!!
Looks like the ghosts are haunting again for you. Funny how we think we are ok with things and beleive me, I know where your coming from.
My ex went to vegas last week and got married. When she told me I said "ran away again, same thing we did" she said something about not wanting a major wedding but I changed the subject to my kids. Actually,, I am really happy about this. She now has her own problems and marriage to attend too and I'm betting she won't bother me as much about my affairs with Steph.
But, on the other hand, I can tell you. If it had been the infamous green guy (gg), that she married. I would be in a whole world of pissed off!! I feel for you there. Her new H never was a part of our marrige falling apart so no anger there.
As a matter of fact her sister, who I got along with great and was recently D is making strides towards reconing with her ex. It has not been long. I said how wonderful that was but she ignored it. I wished her luck.
IMHO, you are giving yourself too little credit for what you did for that dope. He would be nothing without you and is. You spoon fed that jerk the whole way and I'm sure covered his ass constantly. Thats most likely what he is doing Co for. Too learn how to fend for himself for once. Oh, and slutila. She may be painted pretty, be treated like she is a well bred human being. But strip off the covering and all you have is a snake...
Hugs Rondo
MaryC - You are so good at voicing your different emotions and helping us all to believe that it's normal. Thank you for always putting your heart out there, I know it's not always easy.
I can tell you that it doesn't seem to matter to me if it's the one that truly "broke" up our marriage or anything like that. It really is about the fact that he's running so fast from 'us'. So, does that mean this rejection thing is just going to hang on forever? I am behind you also in timeline, but I also look at him and don't have those "fuzzy" feelings. I do get upset when my "place" is replaced by someone else. Just plain bugs me... I don't want it to, but I think it's similar to how John Gray talks about how women tend to have everything into their M, hopes and dreams, family and future. It's not enough that he had to run off and find a party girl, he moves on from her to get back the family thing that he was running so fast to get away from. Makes no sense to me.
One more thing, I know that part of me wants him to suffer consequences. Whenever I hear the kids saying he's 'doing better', etc., it goes agains that wish. But, I've decided that the consequences are not necessarily immediate, noticeable and perhaps we may never know what they are.... but, I do think after all we've been hurt, it's normal to feel the twinge when things go even a little well for them. Must be the little devil inside me? Go away, dude!
Oh, and Clark is awesome!
Take Care!
Mary, Your Clark sounds like a wonderful man. I am glad that you have someone so loving and caring in your life.
As for the feelings that surfaced regarding the H, it reminded me of something my best friend told me. Her H refused to get married for a minimum of 4 years after they had been dating for quite a while. He based his refusal on an article he had read in a magazine that stated it took a good 5 years to actually heal from a divorce. He said if the marriage to her was meant to be, they would still be together at the end of the upcoming 4 years. They were and have been happily married for 11 or 12 years now.
Based on that, maybe your feelings are not too far off base. Let's hope this new tear in your feelings will heal quickly and be the last time something like this occurs.
I want to thank you for your posts that I have read here and there on the bb. You have a great insight and they have been a big help to me and I am sure to others. Thanks again.
Butterfly2000 (B2K)
Dear Mary,
You have always been such a light and inspiration to those of us still dealing with the raw emotiona of upcoming divorce. As someone else said, you aren't afraid of your feelings and share with us the insight you have gleaned over the years. It is hard to feel you in pain.
I have dealt with my H taking his HO to Disney World where we were engaged and spent year after year revisisiting...even our 20th anniversary, when he had already decided that he wanted a divorce. So I am pretty sure I know how it feels.
The thing is, I don't think they do! They don't own their feelings. They close down what they felt for us and never look back. And the empathy is missing in them...so they won't acknowledge our RIGHT to feel hurt and pain for dishonoring our memories. The injustice of it is killing me, and I can see where, even when you have a new love in your life, like wonderful Clark....it doesn't change the fact that someone is dishonoring the past. These people don't get it; I guess they never will.
I am glad you can talk to Clark about this. I am sorry you feel this pain. I think I understand it. Sometimes , it feeels like to much to bear.
Hugs....gd
Dear Mary,
I,too, have felt your same pain. Everyone that posted said the same things we all feel, it's pretty ironic to me.
It's just one more emotion we will all have to go through, but that's ok Mary, feel it and then let it go. It's normal, how could it not hurt. You were a part of his life for so long, you just can't turn that off.
It must be like someone said, they try repeating their memories. Mine is taking the O/W to the Keys with him. Something we did every summer...........it is the last place I would want to go. I mean it would be to hurtful. Isn't it to them? So you see Mary, your Ex, mine, all the others they've reinvented themselves so the memories don't hurt. They are different people, they changed, we didn't.
The thing is Mary, they can't run forever, I truly believe it will caught up to them, one day.
It's wonderful you have a new Love in Clark. He will help you through this...........your very lucky.
You deserve it. And no matter what Mary, your Ex will never be happy, you know why, because he doesn't have YOU!
Mary,
So sorry you are going through this pain. FWIW, I understand your hurt and your anger. The thought of H doing just fine without me drives me crazy as well. After all, H chose to leave, so it would serve him right if he falls flat on his face and realizes what a good thing we had all along or if he feels just one ounce of the hurt he's brought to me. But then I recoil in horror at such a vengeful thought coming out of my brain. I mean as a good Christian, I shouldn't wish evil on my worst enemy. But then I see he's doing just fine and I feel inadequate/ angry/ hurt all over again.
I am not as far along in the process as you (not D yet) so my wounds are a little fresher. In fact the 4th of July was the anniversary of our engagement. He pulled out the ring, got down on his knees and just as I said yes and the first round of fireworks burst in the sky. It couldn't have been more idyllic. Now, fireworks just don't have the same meaning meaning for me - it leaves a knot in my stomach. And it's sad because it should be such a joyous thing to look at (regardless of whether it was an engagement anniversary or not.).
Anyway, I will build new memories with my S as far as fireworks displays are concerned and I am hoping that in time, I will one day enjoy it again. I am wishing the same for you - that one day, this won't bother you anymore. It always takes longer than we expect though. Pain is so hard to deal with that we always want the quick solution to stop it. You said it yourself, you never dreamed you'd be sitting at the dinner table with no feelings for X but it happened. Someday, you will be OK with this too but for right now, your sadness and anger is justified.
I agree with FRIEND about WAS's reinventing themselves. He had to erase his memories of good times with you to justify his leaving. In fact, I asked my H that question one time after an hour of him saying bad things about me and why R wouldn't work out, so I asked him if he remembered any good times he had with me. He honestly had trouble remembering even one good memory! And it infuriated him that I would even ask. Incidentally, that was the day he decided to move out of the house.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. As you can see, you are an inspiration to many on this board, including me.
Take care,
Nina
Thank you all for such wonderful posts. I've read them all. I am truely fortunate to have such supportive people in my life. Right now, we're in the middle of something so I can't post more. But I wanted you all to know that I appreciate all of your kind words. Thank you.
MC
I feel much better today than I did the other night. Clark and I talked about it. One of the things that we agreed on is pretty much what Luckyman and some of the others said, these WA will ALWAYS have a place in our hearts. Even when there are other people in our lives, there will always be a piece that belongs to them, and unfortunately for us, this means that a piece of us will always stand to get hurt. I'm not sure if we can get them totally out, and to be perfectly honest, I don't know if I want to. We had a beautiful family and the good times were more than the bad. There are many wonderful memories that warm my heart and I guess what hurts about this whole thing is that he seems to just stomp on them by trying to relive it with the very woman that helped break up our family.
CC and others, I think you did hit the nail on the head with him trying to relive his life to replace me. I don't get it though, WHY did he leave to begin with? He DUMPED ME! Now he wants to replace me? Does he believe ow is a better version of me than me? He's also never expressed ANY regret about leaving and breaking up his family, or EVER asked to come back. BUT he's done stuff like this before, like staying in the same hotel with her in PR where as teenagers we'd sneak in to the empty bungelows and made out for the first time, proposed to her two years ago at Disneyworld where we honeymooned and now this with going to Boston. He also has been overheard more than once calling her by my name. (I just love that! LOL) Must have gone over well. My d. was there one time in the break room when he called her on the phone and said the room got silent and all of his office staff just got up and left.
Even if he is trying to replay a version of me with her, the fact is that he was always trying to change me anyway, so he wasn't too happy with who I was either. I think that ow has some qualities I don't, but she also lacks some of the ones that I had that he likes. I simply don't get it.
I know it's not good for ow that he does this. Wish I could feel sorry for her, but I don't. Makes me glad instead. Makes me wonder how much he really does care for her. I know I don't go to the same places that my ex and I went to ON PURPOSE! I want Clark and I to have our own memories that aren't tainted by the past.
I hear you about the counseling having limited success. But the part that bothers me is HIS WILLINGNESS to do something not to lose her. I guess he knew he had a sure thing with me and I would never leave. That's probably why he dished out all that he did. He'd knew I'd take it. She on the other hand has a history of walking.
Ron, Clark said the same words you did. His ex is running off to Montana with guy #2 and he doesn't care, but he did say it would have bothered him too that if she had done the same with the om that broke up the marriage.
I also think it has alot to do with like Frosty said suffering the consequences. I have this feeling that there must be some sort of cosmic justice. How can two people acheive happiness on the pain of others? I just think it is wrong and it angers me that there could be the possibility that they can be happy together. What bothers me the most is her. Yes I still hate her guts. I try to let go of her those feelings, but they come back, especially when I see my son. He's been affected deeply by it, but never really dealt with it, because he's the "jock tough guy" who refuses to see it or get help. I know that technically the ex and ow are equally responsible, but in my book I have always held her to higher standard. Why? Ok beat me up for the double standard, but here is goes. I hold her more accountable because she's a woman, a mother, was my friend and KNEW my kids. Despite all this, she CHOSE to say YES to an affair. Him, well I also hold accountable but to a lower standard, why? because he was a seriel adulterer who thought with his lower head and sad as it sounds, it was almost expected behavior from a man whose had the flaw of not being able to keep his pants zipped. So even if my reasons are full of the double standard, that is the truth. This is why I can and have forgiven him, why I want the best for him, why I can sit in a room with him and have dinner.
As I type all this, I realize that I'm really still messed up. Obviously, there's things I haven't let go of. I'm better than what I was, but I think divorce does scar us. I would like for the past to remain there, so I can live my life. I hate it when the damn ghosts show up.
Quoting MaryC2:
How can two people acheive happiness on the pain of others? ... I hold her more accountable because she's a woman, a mother, was my friend and KNEW my kids. Despite all this, she CHOSE to say YES to an affair.
Mary,
That's the golden question I've wanted answers to as well. Same sitch here. OW was a mother to 2 Ds, knew H was married, knew he had a son. Heck, even gave us baby gifts when S was born. Not only that, she got D after her X left her for another woman. She was the LBS. She had no excuse. You would think that she would have learned NOT to do that to anyone else after the pain she went through. (It took me a long time to figure out about the A despite all the evidence because of that very thought.) What was she thinking??? Even if H heavily put the moves on her, why didn't she say NO? You know what I think it is? I think she was so insecure she needed another man in the house to fill the gap as quickly as possible and she didn't really care who she could bait into doing that. H is appealing because he is very "kid-friendly." I still don't get her reasoning though. (Or maybe there is no reasoning going on in her brain.) What makes her think H won't leave her for someone else?
I just don't understand, but I am so tired of H's antics I don't really care. Those two deserve each other and whatever else is coming to them. All I can satisfy myself with is "What goes around comes around." Someday, she'll figure it all out and kick herself.
Mary, the reason he's trying to relive your marriage with OW is that he knows he messed up with you, but also he knows that you know him inside out. Frequently what a WA wants is another chance to impress, and you, in his view, are "unimpressable", you "know" him too well, you can't be fooled. The OW, well, she is still relatively new and he can try again with a "clean" slate. To me it's like if your name was mud in some town so instead of cleaning up your act, you just left and set up camp somewhere else where they don't know you. Common criminals do it all the time. It takes a lot of maturity and humility to try with someone who knows your flaws, yet still be willing to try to do better. Somehow I don't think that men like our H's have it in them and find it easier to just scrap the problems and start over. I don't think it really works in the long run though. Usually whatever is in your character is going to surface eventually, even if you manage to hide it in the beginning. The very fact that they ran says a lot about them. Remember, it took years and years before your problems with him became apparent, right? Don't forget too, that he knows that you are now with Clark, so he must make a go of it with this new relationship, or be alone. That doesn't mean he'll succeed, because of what this R is built on and it's a pretty shaky foundation IMO. You had to do a lot of soul searching before you got into your R with Clark, your H didn't. So it will all catch up with him sooner or later but don't expect him to ever admit it to you, since that's part of his arrogant, stubborn nature and he pretty much has to prove that he was right in his decision. Sure, you still have some healing to do, but you're well on your way to a much better life than he can ever hope to have, rest assured of that.
Mary,
Not much to add to what the other posters have already said, but I think you are right. The part of them that is part of us lives on, probably for as long as we do. After all, what kind of sorry excuses for human beings would we be if we could just erase their memory from our lives? The thing is, the part of us that is part of them will always be there too, whether or not they choose to admit it.
You know, I'm just not convinced that two people can build a foundation of happiness on the hurt and suffering of others. I know I never want to try to. I do believe that there are great equalizing forces at work in the universe as we speak. I suspect that they get the same lesson, just presented in a different way. Sometimes it takes a while. I can refer to my own x as an example. Having a woman leave him will never hurt him as much as his leaving hurt me because it's just not important to him. Marriage and commitment aren't a priority to him. What is important to him is money. Lots of it. When he left, he was headed up the corporate ladder with a promising future. One month after our d was final, he lost his job. Word had it that his sordid personal life was interfering with his job performance. He took a job for about 1/4 of the pay in a different field. Him surrounded by beautiful golf courses and no money is a pretty pathetic sight so I've heard. I didn't plan for it and I certainly didn't wish it upon him, it just happened.
Divorce does injure us but I think in time, the injury becomes less like a scar and more like character, just another part of who we are. Adhesions and scar tissue are pretty damn tough anyway and maybe that is, for me, the biggest challenge of all. To not become so tough that I lose all vulnerability.
CC, what you say does make a great deal of sense. One thing about my ex is he hates to look bad, and I can see him running and starting over rather than having the guts or maturity to be accountable. I do wonder what in fact is going on with the counseling and if it will result in true soulsearching and change. I guess the true test of that is if he is ever able to come to me, and acknowledge his mistakes. You'd think he need that closure if indeed he is doing the soulsearching for real. I do think you are right and I'll never see it.
Dulcie and hbh31, I also hold on to the concept of "what goes around, come around" and that happiness can't be built on the pain of others. I do believe in cosmic justice, but I guess sometimes I want it on my timeline. I mean it isn't all a bed roses for them either, ow does have MS. I don't know how severe, but it won't be pretty.
I know what you mean about vulnerablity. I'm not hardened or tough, but certainly am a bit more cynical. I used to believe in marriage, but no longer do. It's sad. I wish I could feel differently, but I can't because the laws of this country very clearly state that marriage is for as long as it feels good, there is no commitment and you can quit anytime the going gets rough. I for one don't want a part of that and to me right now it is nothing more than a meaningless piece of paper. I'm better off going to an atty and drawing up a partnership agreement to share assets and having a will than getting a marriage certificate. That'll have more teeth in a court of law than a marriage certificate. I live in a no fault state, if one person wants out, it's a done deal after 30 days of filing. What is "marriage" worth in my state? Not much. Why bother with the formalities? It's meaningless. This is what divorce has done to me.
As a Catholic, I also believed in the sacrament. He did too, but he found a way around that, by quitting at his religion to "feel good" about his actions once again.
I struggle with the concept of annulment. In my church it means that the sacrament never took place because of a "flaw" at the time of the marriage. To me this would mean that for 23 years I lived a lie. I can't accept that. He walked out, he lacked the character and commitment, our marraige wasn't a lie. When I brouched the subject, my ex himself told me this past March that even though he was 19 and I was pregnant, he understood the sacrament, knew it was forever and went through with it. To say two and half decades later that we knew not what we were doing, seems like a lame excuse to me. I've heard that in my case they would find him as having a pre-existing character flaw that would not have allowed him to understand the seriousness of his decision, that we were young and lacking in maturity, and the fact that I was pregnant did not really constitute coming to it out of "free-will". I hate to say it, but more than reasons they sound like excuses. Sometimes I just think that in many ways, my Church has found a convinient loophole to apease alot of us Catholics who are divorced. I started the annulment process, but stopped. Somehow I can't bring myself to do it.
I don't have many answers these days, just plenty of questions. I don't know why I can't just let it go, pursue annulment and accept a tribunal's decision. It just feels right now like it would mean that I lived a lie. I can't let go of that part and it holds me back from going further. I know I don't want him back, I know I want to share the rest of my life with someone else. I am trapped. I'm trying to figure out how to get myself out of this predicament I find myself in and have no answers. I'd appreciate it if anyone can help shed some light.
Mary: I, like you, am also catholic and can't go through with an annulment for the same reasons. I can't admit to myself either that for 17 years we lived a lie and I know when we stood before GOD and the church that we were full aware of what we were doing. So, I too, struggle with the same dilema as you. How does Clark feel if I may ask?
Missy
Hi Missy,
Clark isn't Catholic, so he doesn't "get it" when I talk about my dilema. He sees it as just a rule created by the Catholic Church that makes no sense. Even though I've explained it many times, I still don't think he quite understands how the Church could say there was a marriage in the civil sense but no sacrament. It's one of those areas where he respects my beliefs, but since he doesn't share them, we agree to disagree.
It does pose a problem for us however, since the guy wants to legally marry me. To me, a civil piece of paper we can get at the court house means absolutely nothing, since it can be so easily disposed of. He wants the piece of paper to mean something to me too, but it won't. He understands that "I cometh with baggage", loves me and still wants to share his life with me. We have do have a commitment to one another, but he wants the piece of paper. I do know he wishes things were different and hopes one day we will somehow get legally married.
The problem that I have is that even though in Church's eyes there are grounds, I am not convinced that my ex didn't know what a life long commitment meant due to immaturity or his personality disorder (psychological reasons). The man is highly intellegent and educated, comes from a devout Catholic family and has 12 yrs of Catholic school education rammed into his brain. Of course he knows, about the seriousness of the Sacrament and what "lifetime commitment" is. I believe he simply utilized his God given free-will and CHOSE out of his own selfishness to get a divorce anyway because marriage was hard work he simply didn't want to do.
For right now, I'm just one confused person. I am very much trapped now because I am not so sure an annulment is the answer. My problem is that after talking to priests, if I were to go through with it, it is my understanding that it would probably be granted, but I don't think I could accept that kind of a ruling from a tribunal. In my heart I just don't believe I lived a lie for 23 years.So there are more questions than answers. The certainity I once had is gone.
So for right now I'm stuck.
Mary,
All interesting but somewhat disturbing as it seems many Catholics have rewritten the way God intended things to be. I am no expert by any means but from what I understand God wants us to be happy, does not mention anulment as the only way to end a marriage.
When one person walks away from the holy sacrament and turns his back on God and his spouse, to me that LBS is not responsible to uphold the sacrament anymore lest they be miserable for the rest of their lives.
Your first responsiblilty from what I know is to hold God before all others. A man takes a woman to complete him but we are both created in his image and like God when someone denounces him/us, we wish them no harm, forgive them and move on with our lives with him as our focus and not the church. How it came to be that the church must be more satisfied then God is beyond me? Isn't the church just a conveyance of God's words and wishes. That often the church(like our political parties) will tack on our tweak things to fit that particular religion/partys view of the bible or constitution?
I may be out of line here but I do know we are supposed to be happy and why would any church deny the fact that a marriage existed, something seen and witnessed by many when we are asked to only believe that God exists or buddha, Allah, so on and so forth, when no real proof exists that he does?
You had faith, you still do, your union was real and ended. Are you forgiven? Is he? HAve you sought answers through God and has he soothed your spirit?
Your ex has not. He will someday and he too will feel Gods love again. And he will also feel the love he had for you again and seek foregivness from both.
Not in your time but his time. Its how we learn and grow. Thats what I understand...
Rondo
Rondo...Biblically, there are several reasons that divorce is justified and God releases you from your marriage...among them are adultery, abandonment by a non-believer, incest, bestiality, and I think there is one more but I am not sure of that. I feel totally justified in getting my D because of H's affair(s), although he only admits to this last one. He is Catholic, but has not been to mass in well over 2 years and HE broke the covenant when he cheated on me. I am Protestant and have very strong Christian beliefs. I struggled with divorce in the eyes of God , but now feel as God has said to me "Well done, my good and faithful servant, now go, and be in peace". God does not COMMAND divorce ever, but He allows it in the aforementioned circumstances. Anyway, you know how it goes with religion, and I don't want to push my views on you or anyone else...just felt the need to chime in and say my 2 cents worth, that's all!
Mary....you are really an inspiration to me. As others have noted, your willingness to express your feelings and emotions during and after your divorce is a huge help to those of us following the same path. Thank you , and keep on keeping on! TC
hi Ron / TC
I know exactly what you guys mean. I'm not comfortable with the notion of annullment, I believe in a loving and forgiving God, but then I believe as marraige forever, and then there's all the stuff about divorce...
Basically, I'm taking it one day at time, hoping to have an ah ha! moment at some point. So I'm not getting an annulment for now, and not getting married anytime soon either.
Some Catholics will cringe at this..., but I still do take communion, and yes I live with a man. I take the sacraments because I just believe in the grace it gives. It is no different in the eyes of the Church if he had been my "legal" husband since it wouldn't be recognized as a "valid" marraige and I'd be considered "living in sin" anyway. So why bother with the piece of paper? It's meaningless to the Church and easily overturned by divorce. I just don't see the point. It has no value to me.
My God is a forgiving and loving God, who knows I'm trying my best here. I certainly didn't ask for any of this, and He knows it.
Mary,
My Ex and I were both raised Catholic, my Ex coming from an extremely strick Catholic upbringing. And look what he has done. He chooses to pick and choose what fits him nothing to do with what the Bible says.
I believe in what Rondo said, to hold God before all others. To forgive all those who have hurt us and move on. To keep God as your only focus and not the church. Pray to God for your answers, in time he will.
Thanks for always sharing your feelings, as you can see, it helps all of us.
I'm ready to take some heat for this one!
The bible says that you are not to put away your wife (or Husband)
From what I remember,and I haven't looked in the bible for a little while now.Fornication is the only reason for an annulment.Where as the newly wedded husband finds out that the woman he married wasn't a virgin.
Oh what an excuse to get a Divorce,if I had wanted to be a waw.I can see a whole crop of guys saying,well we really aren't married,cause you weren't pure.
This topic is such a tough one... it's been hard on me since day one and here's my honest friend MaryC voicing what's been swirling around me for 3 years. I have family members still going to latin mass, my dad telling me I don't get do-overs, my sister saying she thinks I had a 'valid' marriage. In the end, what does it mean?
I do understand what the church is trying to gain, basically, giving marriage the credence that it deserves, "Until Death Do Us Part", not until someone isn't happy. For, we of all people know how twisted that gets. Besides, religion is an interpretation of the bible and can have the rules it wants, we can chose to be a part of that or not.
I paid a visit to my priest to sort this out, early in the process. He was more concerned with my mental health at that time, and I did attend the divorced group within the church, also focusing on healing.
I've also stated that by getting an annulment, what does that mean for my kids??... doesn't work for me, so I'm in the same boat.
Lucky - funny thing, I found those very passages to give me some peace. I was abandoned also, which is part of the passage.
No answers, just letting you all know that as usual, you are not alone.
Since all the "good" men are taken, I'm good for now, if one happens to turn up, I can see me being in the same predicament.
Take Care!
Hi Mary,
This thread caught my eye because I've often wondered if I am truly healed. I feel fine most of the time and then I hear about something the ex is doing and I get angry again.
I believe that they are trying to re-create what they so swiftly destroyed when they began an affair, walked out, refused counseling, and became so selfish that nothing else mattered except what they wanted. It's just another form of denial. They've lied to everyone else, but now no one believes them and so they lie to themselves. But how long can anyone live a lie?
My guess is that at some point the walkaway knows he/she seriously messed up and is very sorry for what they've done, and it may take decades, but most of us here will never hear about it. I would still like to hear an apology from my ex, but I know I never will, and for some reason, that still hurts.
In my work, a client passed away and at her memorial service, her ex-husband of many, many years said that the stupidest thing he ever did was when he left 'R-----'. Why couldn't he tell her that when she was alive? What a waste. What a jerk.
So, my friend, here I am remarried now almost a year, and I'm hauling around my baggage too. How can anyone be in their 40's or 50's and not have baggage? love F
Good post. It makes us feel better about ourselves knowing we are not alone in the feelings we have. I can get myself upset over the smallest things. Like this weekend with my grandchildren. Andy, the three year old decided he wanted to call my sister's husband POP. This is the name they had used for my husband. I was not upset about them doing this but rather angry at John for not being there for my grandkids.
I am sure we all have stories...and it is good to share them. MaryC, how is it that you come up with such great post which connect so many of us?
This post is very interesting. I have been D 1 year on 7/19, and will be spending that weekend with my best friend in LA. The timing was actually a coincidence, but it worked out well:)
Most of the time I feel like I have accepted this whole thing, but then my XH will do something that makes the pain fresh again. He is still with the OW, and they are planning on getting married this year. YUCK! If he was with anyone else, I think it would be easier. I just can't get past the fact that she helped him rip our lives apart, and encouraged him all the way! My D (who will be 5 in a couple of months) said this to me last week: "Mom, Dad was living with "OW" before you got D, wasn't he?" I said yes, and she replied, "Doesn't Daddy understand that you only live with your family when you are married? Those are the RULES Mom!". I couldn't believe it...she gets it, but he doesn't! I try very hard to answer her questions honestly, without elaborating. She refuses to meet Daddy's GF, and he has told me that he will force her on the next visit. He only sees our D once a month or so anyway, and honestly I think he only does that for appearances. Anyway, I think that the good memories and the children keep the relationship going even after it has died, and the pain lessens over time but never goes away completely.
As for the Church, I am also Catholic, and have been told by our priest that I would qualify for an Annulment. In fact, the priest who married us says now that he didn't think my XH fully understood the committment - thanks a lot for speaking up at the time Father!! I'm not sure if I will do it, but I am considering it. I was married for almost 8 years, but I think its harder for those who were married longer.
MaryC-
I had to go through some of the same questions in my own mind during the last year. I looked into the annullment process also. Decided its not for me but if others need that to feel right about things thats okay with me too.
The bigger problem for me was that my fiance was (is) a very involved Catholic - goes on retreats and is involved in the spiritual groups etc. Pretty big part of her life. And technically we will be excommunicated when we marry. Although off the record her priest told her he would still give her communion. (Normally we go to my daughters church anyway). He also felt I would have a not so easy time getting an annulmment anyway as they are tightening up on the process. As we know its sort of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" with all these rules. My own conscience feels clear taking communion so I do. I was more angry for my fiances sake because basically she is an innocent party coming into this and has to suffer. At least logically I can follow how I should be "punished" since I'm divorced and broke the rules. Although my cousin is in the same boat, as her H never got the annullment either - and she is pretty involved in the Church - but I don't think she takes communion. In my case I am the only parent (along with my LF) taking my daughter to Mass along with sending her to Catholic school. Maybe I'm justifying myself - but I agree with your take on God being a loving forgiving God. If I'm wrong and its a beurocratic (butchered the spelling) punishing God then I guess I'll be in trouble. So I suppose I am in the great mass of American Cafeteria Catholics! My LF understands the flip side of the annullment as her Dad was married 25 years and still was able to get one - quickly in another state for a good amount of bucks. So she looks at it more as a divisive thing than healing. But thats her opinion. In my case my XW and I get along. My own mind I feel we both knew what we were doing so basically I'd have to lie to get it. And part of me feels its disrespectful to to my daughters mother. I know I have the adultery chip regarding my XW - which seems to be the get out of jail free card. But I have my own factors to attone for - I was not a cherisher, neglectful etc. My LF also feels it might throw a wrench in her and my XW's relationship - not that they have to have tea - but now they are civil bordering on cordial.
Anyways I have some of the same thoughts as you sometimes. Seems better in the eyes of the Church to just keep "dating"/"semi living in sin" than get remarried.
This is getting muddled. Time to wrap up.
I'm hoping to show my daughter that a loving marriage is possible. Show myself that I've internalized what I've learned. I have a great woman now who I'm very in-tune with. Maybe I want a "do-over" as Frosty mentioned.
On the other issue of healing. I'd say I'm 98% healed. When the 2% pops up I run it by LF. We seem to have a similar relationship as you and Clark. We're very open. Its a lot less stressfull that way...
Take care-
Rich
Frosty,
Your dad and mine must have been cut from the same cloth... He didn't come right out and say it, but pretty much the feeling was it was probably time for the convent for me. I know I probably disappointed the hell out of him the last few years of his life. I think he felt I had already screwed up my life with the divorce and was pretty worried about me screwing up my life even further.
I share your concern about what annulment means for the kids. The offical line is that they are not affected, because the marriage was a valid legal union, and the only part that wasn't valid was the sacrament. I have trouble with the offical rationale too.
Of course it affects the children that their parents didn't have the sacrament! My son left the church in no small part due to his parents divorce, all a part of requestioning everything in his life. Believe me an annulment won't help matters, or bring him back! Emotionally, you bet an annulment affects them.
Part of the issue that I think older and adult children of divorce face that their lives growing up was a lie. They have a hard time coping that what they thought existed, in reality didn't, and was no more than a feeting moment in time. How is an annulment not affect the security that they lost in the divorce? I think it only makes it worse. It may be a "healing" for the couple, but what do the kids get out of this? All I can see is even more hurt for my son, and more cynisism for my daughter.
So yet more confusing questions... I have no clue what I am supposed to do with all this, and like you have no answers either. So for now I'm just thinking and processing, hoping one day I will know what I need to do.
Hi
Children leaving church because of thei parents dv is no confined to the catholic church and the issue of annullment. As a non catholic I must admit to being mystifed by it all but as a Christian I have had to question myself and my faith over the dv issue. My eldest son left church because in part he saw no reason to still be part of it if his dad wasn't. Its been hard to watch and accept but I have had to accepot that he is now old enough to be responsible before God for his own spiritual walk.
Jante
hello all,
I will not weigh in on the maters of Church or church practice..... that is a matter of conscience anyway.
I will state that we all ehal, but at different rates.
and we all heal, but from different wounds.
and we all heal, but we have different thresholds of pain.
We all here, in my humble opinion, seem to be the ones who have the hardest time healing.
But it takes place.
And yes, sooner or later it will all calm down.
I have more to say, but not right now~
Love to all,
Paul
Hi Flowers,
Nice to hear from you.
You are right about the baggage. I think we think we are quote "healed", "over it", "moved on" and then like Hopeful says, there's something that on the surface seems insignificant, yet isn't and all those feelings we thought were dealt with, come rushing back.
I have to admit, for me it's not with the same intensity or duration as three and four years ago, but a part of me wishes that they just wouldn't keep resurfacing.
I believe that even if you have moved on and accepted it, that sense of loss of that which was unfulfilled remains inside in a form of a sadness buried deep in your heart. I think that we can't totally rid ourselves of them, there were too many good times and in a long term marriage, we became a part of each other.
My ex and I had a conversation this morning and at one point in it, he said something to the effect that he'd always watch out for anything that would harm our kids and also harm me as I was an extension of them.
I wonder what he really means by that, and to what extent he'd go for me. Is this an indication of regret? No, I think to believe that would be to read too much into it. However, the fact that he'd even give it thought is significant, in that even as a WA there is still a part of his heart that is mine. I don't know if he actually would believe he "messed up". At least not at this point.
It's all a shame really that these people could just throw it all away... Will they be one day like that old guy at the funeral? Who knows.
And if they are that raises a whole set of new dilemas because you never really can go back. This experience has forever changed me. I lost my innocence and my sense of trust has been forever altered. I really hope now that he never truely comes to that realization because I don't want to ever be put in the position of having to say to him I can't. That would be painful too because then I would have become the obstacle to my family coming back together. It's easier to deal when he's the one responsible on that count.
I do know that it is best to travel light, so while I may always carry baggage, I'm trying my darndest figure out what are things have become useless and can be thrown away.
Quote:
He is still with the OW, and they are planning on getting married this year. YUCK! If he was with anyone else, I think it would be easier. I just can't get past the fact that she helped him rip our lives apart, and encouraged him all the way!
Momsar do I understand!!! I can't let it go or get past it either. That is the other strike against re-marriage for me. I have life-time alimony and if I re-marry I of course lose that. If he were with anyone else, it would be a non-issue. But I have a real problem in giving it up if he and ow get married.
I know in many ways its cutting my nose to spite my face, but I can't get passed the issue that I made life decisions based on a life contract that forever altered my economic self-suficiency. In no small measure this man got where he is today because I was in his life in a supporting capacity. It's really not about the money, because the issue would be there for me even if I were to marry a multi-millionaire. It's a two part issue with me . It is about him breaking the contract and being held accountable no differently than in any partnership AND it's about that woman benefitting in any way from my years of sacrifice. I get the pain and she the gain? I have a hard time with that. Having said that, it wouldn't matter to me if he found someone else, ANYONE else. But for her to benefit in any way shape or form after destroying my family? I can't deal with that. At least the ex was there for the pain part, but she? All she did was create MORE pain in our lives and for her to gain from it, well that's a tough pill to swallow.
I struggle with ow in our lives. I truely hope it isn't forever and at some point that relationship flops. How it has lasted this long is beyond me. I don't know how those of you whose former spouses married the other person cope with having them in your lives knowing that they will a part of family events. I have struggled anytime I've had to see her face at family events pertaining to our children. To the casual observer I don't have a problem, but I'm a damn good actress and I do anything for my kids sake.
Maybe one day it won't matter, but I just can't get passed it.
Quoting MaryC2:
I struggle with ow in our lives. I truely hope it isn't forever and at some point that relationship flops. How it has lasted this long is beyond me. I don't know how those of you whose former spouses married the other person cope with having them in your lives knowing that they will a part of family events. I have struggled anytime I've had to see her face at family events pertaining to our children. To the casual observer I don't have a problem, but I'm a damn good actress and I do anything for my kids sake.
That's a good question. How do you cope with having OW in your life? I am not as far down the path as you Mary, but I am curious how you deal with OW at events where you see her? Do you make eye contact, strike up conversation or just ignore?
I am just amazed that I have not bumped into OW considering we live only about 10 miles apart and this city isn't that big. Our kids even go to the same daycare. I haven't even quite decided what to do if I ever do bump into her. Any thoughts?
hi hbh31,
My kids are older, 19 and 25, so I'm fortunate that contact is limited to "major events" I called the time and place for the first one, and this helped. My son got engaged 4/02 and I knew she'd be at the wedding, so I decided to do a run on my turf for my d. HS graduation in May 2002. I had a graduation party at MY house with ALL my family and friends and invited them. I had all the support in the world from people that loved me and she actually was very uncomfortable. I was polite when they arrived, said hello and since it was a self-service party, pointed out where the food and drink were, and didn't talk much to her until I was smashed. Then I made some double meaning jokes at her expense in Spanish that she didn't get but everyone else including the ex did and laughed. I was vindicated!
The next one was my son's wedding this past April. It was emotional for me to have my baby get married and there were enough people at the rehersal dinner and wedding that I could basically ignore her and did. I spent alot of time with the ex's family that I hadn't seen since the divorce and they were very friendly towards me.
So there really hasn't been much "socializing" The ex invited her to my d b'day party the weekend before last, but she didn't really want to come and got off the hook because she was working. He came and it was fine. He's been over quite a bit by himself now and again, and that has never been a problem at all.
So basically it's been very limited contact and mostly not talking to her much more than very few words. I would categorize it as "polite and distant" and if I can get away with ignoring her or pretending I didn't see her when I did, I do that. This has happened on a few occacions in town and we both pretended we didn't see each other. She wants contact with me just about as much as I want contact with her, so that helps. The ex is the one that has a silly notion that somehow we can ALL be once big happy family. I dunno about that...not in this lifetime.
Mary,
Hmm, not going to be so lucky on this end. S is 3 now, so there will be many swim meets, little league games, soccer games, whatever else he gets into. Of course, I am speculating at this point that she will still be around then. She's dumb enough to be with him, I guess she's dumb enough to marry him. At one point, I thought about confronting her if I ever saw her, but then decided it would be a waste of my breath. So I guess ignoring her the best I can is the way to go. Thanks for your insight!
hbh
hi Rich,
Life used to be simpler, wasn't it?
Are you guys contemplating marriage outside the Church? My sister married a divorced man and did just that. She takes communion too. I guess we are a family of rebels. LOL
I think we are all trying the best we can and God knows our hearts. I want a "do-over" too. And in many ways I'm already doing it, but without the piece of paper. My d. is able to see a positive loving commited relationship, but the fact it is not a marriage does raise all kinds of moral dilemas, since to our kids we are saying "do as I say, not as I do" Fortunately, my son never lived with his wife before marriage and my daughter is against doing it (for now). I think they can see the difference between what I am doing and what it would mean for them as young adults who never have been married. But still, it's not a good example and I know it.
I wish things were different, but this is the real world, and for now things are what they are until we figure out something better.
I think I'm also for the most part healed, maybe more like 90%. It's just those pesky little things now and again...
Hi Paul,
How's it going for you and Cyndi?
I agree that we all heal differently and in different time frames. You know, I'm not so sure that we here are the ones that have the hardest time healing. I think we are more likely the ones that are more honest about admitting it, and dealing with it. We process it and talk about it.
We probably also are the ones that analyze it to death too! LOL
Hi Mary-
Yes all this knowledge and analyzation we do makes things more complicated! My daughter is younger than your children but I've already laid the groundwork for open communication SO I'm sure I'll be getting into all these "gray area" topics with her eventually. I understand all the moral dilemmas!
As far as seeing the other person afterwords which I do quite frequently since my XW married him...in my mind I like to think I am "polite and distant" but my LF thinks I'm closer to "disdainful". Lol. As they say in the movies "this is the life they have chosen". To marry their affair partners. My daughter lives with them more than me so I never say anything about him positive or negative. She can form her own opinion. I would prefer my XW had met someone else but she's (they) are not analyzers so they did the quick marriage. It makes it forever awkward after no matter how aloof you try to act. But I would say THEY are more uncomfortable around me than vice versa. Everyone accepts my LF (even XW's family) but there is always that little cloud that follows them around. But the funny thing is part of me wants them to at least stay together till my daughter is out of the house as I don't want her to witness another marriage going down the tubes. So I'm mixed.
My fiances mom wanted to go down an aisle. My fiance wanted some religious/spiritual aspects in the ceremony also. She'd have preferred Catholic but you have to deal with the available options ... So we're getting married in a Congregational church. We knew one of the ministers. Its her first (only as she likes to say) wedding so I didn't feel it fair to not let her have the full boat if she wanted it. Part of me feels a little sheepish about the gala affair, might have preferred something a little less big, but...my daughter is pumped about being in it. My family although most are pretty solid Catholic Church goers but they are pretty mellow so they are just glad I'm happy. Anyways a lot of my cousins have not been conventional weddings - so I guess my family has a little free spirit in it too. The important thing is we are both more concerned about the marriage not the wedding. Maybe that comes with maturity?
My XW had said a lot of nice things about LF so I guess she approves. Being a controller.
Rich
Wildflower, your post was so good I copied it and have sent it to my friend. Hope you don't mind. For me what it says is that we need to always be open and honest with ourself. We need to look at the WA and their selfish ways in order to improve our own lives. Thanks for the post.
This is a wonderful thread. The issues we are dealing with are so complicated. As a friend of mine said about my situation (STBX's betrayal, raising kids as a single mother, etc) "Your life has a lot of meaning, doesn't it?"
I think about that often. What would my mind be dwelling on if I hadn't had this HUGE, ENORMOUS, multi-faceted situation to deal with these past few years? It has made me think about things deeply in a way I KNOW I would not have if X hadn't split.
I daily think about forgiveness, faithfulness, boundaries, love, revenge, betrayal, self-control, God, to name but a few! I bet if I was still with my STBX, I'd be thinking about what color to paint the living room.
I am only a couple of weeks away from divorce. Recently my H admitted feelings of "guilt and loss" to me. In a kind of oblique way, but still, it meant a lot to me that he might lie awake at night and sometimes regret what he did. Because he has effectively lost his kids. Not because I EVER bad-mouthed him or stood in the way of them being with him. But because they are living their own lives, don't want to spend a lot of time with OW (some want to spend NO time with her) and therefore they just don't see him all that much. As I heal, I often thank God that I am not in his position. He traded his family for his passionate connection to OW.
I recently reached the point where I felt comfortable telling STBX that I don't want OW at kids' functions. They don't want her there either. She will probably be there for the rest of our lives, but at the moment I have no trouble saying I don't like it. X and OW can do with that information what they will. They are free to go where they want. It took me YEARS of introspection and pain to realize that I had the right to state my opinion. I feel much better having done so. I feel free.
Mary, you and Clark (and the others here with understanding new people) are so lucky to have the openess you have with each other. It's inspiring.
Carlotta, Mary,
I feel the exact same way. My Ex knows this too. I will not hurt myself by seeing her. She doesn't deserve one ounce of respect from me. She can live with knowing this also.
I am lucky in the respect that my girls are old enough to be able to see them if they choose, so I really never have to see her. My Ex has said before, there will be events that we will have to be together, and I told him if he or she is there I just won't go. Of course this would be very hard if one of my girls gets married, but I figure that's a long way off, and I will think about it then. But I wanted to make sure that he knew, he better never think that we are all going to be some happy family with her.
No way in hell, not in this life time. And you know what, that's just to bad for them. He has taken everything from me, he will not get my respect for either one of them. He will not get that from me............and he (they) will always have to live with knowing that.
The more my girls see them the more they don't want to see them, you see, they see right through both of them. I didn't have to do a thing.
My oldest daughter one day says to me, Mom, I wouldn't want to be anybody in this situation but you. You know what, neither would I.
I always try to be a good person. I try to do what's right. That's what I believe God wants. That's probably why we the LBS have such a hard time healing, because we all tried our best, we all did our best, and then for something like this to happen, just floors us. I know it does me, so when things happen, and those ghosts appear, it just brings back all those fellings.
Do we ever truly completely heal? I don't think so.......but we do get better.
Love to you all........
Friend:
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I always try to be a good person. I try to do what's right. That's what I believe God wants. That's probably why we the LBS have such a hard time healing, because we all tried our best, we all did our best, and then for something like this to happen, just floors us. I know it does me, so when things happen, and those ghosts appear, ....
Couldn't have said it better myself, FRIEND.
Like an old wound? We learn to live with it, but somehow, I think I will never be completely happy again. I really hope that's not the case, though. It all goes well...unless something triggers a memory. That happens much too often, in my case..... Usually when I try to sleep, even though I have a GF beside me. That really messes with one's mind !
I, too, always try to do the RIGHT thing....the HARD thing, if necessary. The EXW did too, for 20 years. Then ...POOF ! She was gone....and angry at me for what seemed to be no reason whatsoever. Heck....she's still gets angry over little stuff. Maybe there ARE still feelings there....but her pride would never allow her to show them. I think that's the hardest part for me to take.
But, alas..life goes on. I will play the hand I was dealt...and pray for peace in my heart.
God bless you all.
BM
BM,
It was twenty years for me too. Sometimes I still can't believe what has happened. And they were good, happy years. My Ex lost his career and then he lost himself in depression.
I, like you, feel the same, I don't know if I will ever feel the happiness I once did. I also hope one day I do.
BM; Friend: I have faith that we all will find complete happiness again. No, you will never forget the hurt and betrayal, but then we never forget many things in life that are hurtful. I think that betrayal just takes a very, very long time to come to terms with, and in my opinion, I think that being your own person again without having to rely on a SO to make us feel better is necessary in most cases. Only then, unfortunately, can we feel the pain that we need for eventual closure. And the more we loved that person, and the harder we tried only to be tossed aside of course, the harder it is to mentally get over. My ex-bf did not have long enough to heal after his divorce. Everyone is different, but I have faith that in time and effort, that someone special will come along and make it all of those efforts worth while. I know someone who was married for 29 years with the last 5 or so on the rocks...she had to move out of their home, be on her own...but 5 years later she remarried a very nice man who was also divorced. She tells me that the man she was married all those years is just someone she used to know, and that time has shown her that someone else could make her feel whole again. But I think we have to heal, at least as much as possible, before getting into another R. I do think that this can hinder the R, I KNOW it did with my situation with ex-bf. He had so much resentment and anger, yet could not get over her rejecting him. He definitely needed serious counseling; I'm just sorry he didn't get it before I met him.
FRIEND,
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My Ex lost his career and then he lost himself in depression
Your story is nearly exactly like mine....( except I'm male...chuckle...)
Just substitute : "My ex lost ( her dad to cancer...and then her mom for all practical purposes to ALZHEIMERS).......then herself to depression. ( and PAXIL)"
Yup....I know about the "good marriage" quote, too.
I certainly HOPE that we can heal eventually.....because I really hate this feeling, even though it gets a little better each day.
Do you ever think that this is a bad dream and it cant possibly be actually happening to you ? I know I do....even at this late date.
I want my life back......not necessarily my EXW....as cold as that may sound. I sometimes feel like I'm treading water and not actually moving forward....even with this GF.
She's just not as loving, considerate and kind, like my EXW ONCE was. Do you get that funny feeling, too? Or is it just me ?
Man.....my marriage was the LEAST of my worries up until she walked. It wasnt ever in doubt. I KNEW how much she loved me...and vice versa. I think her words were ( after she left)...." I loved you with my entire being"....or something like that.
I wonder if I'll ever be loved like that again. I am certainly trying to create at atmosphere where my current GF can love me that way....but I'm not sure it's even possible...with her,anyway.
I think my best bet, if this doesnt work out, is to try and find a LBS who can look at herself honestly. Someone I can really relate to.....you know ? Someone who understands how it feels to love another and get tossed aside.
Someone with a tender heart.
BM
Well BM, you can find that again. Ex-bf's ex-w (whew!), by his account and his family's, was really not affectionate or loveable; she was used to being catered to, very materialistic (EVERYTHING was about money...yawn) and never was a giver; he told me that I was everything she wasn't, and didn't know that a R could ever be the way we had it. Point being, yes, you can find that again...we all can. Ex-bf found it, and he knows it. In fact we both found it with each other, just too bad it didn't work out. But at least I know that people are out there...and it doesn't have to be him, or your ex-W, or present LF...those feelings can and will come back with the right person. I just know it. Maybe when we aren't looking and least expect it...
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Maybe when we aren't looking and least expect it...
Hmmm....that's how I found current LF.
So much for that theory, eh ?
I probably let "the one" slip through my fingers last year.
The more I think about her, the more I miss "us"....but truthfully, we weren't really together long enough to tell, at this point. 'Wonderful lady, too. I wish her much happiness.
I guess I have been somewhat sheltered the past 20 years.....because I just dont remember women, in general, being so cold... like I'm seeing now. Disposable relationships..so to speak. " If this doesnt work, I'll just move on to the next guy" attitude.
That's not for me. Not at all.
BM
BM, lettie,
Yes BM, sometimes I do think this must be just a bad dream. It's like, I would of bet you a million dollars this wouldn't of happened to me, to us. I thought we would be together forever.
How does someone who you gave your whole heart and soul to throw that away. Do these WAS think that's so easy to come by. Sometimes I just feel dead inside. That worries me. I don't want to never feel that love again. But I really don't know if it's possible.......I mean if what I did have wasn't real or enough, what is.
Do you know what I mean? What is love, if it isn't what I already had and that wasn't enough for someone.
I know it's all about him, and in your case all about her, but it sure effects us in so many ways.
Trust, love, questions........looking at someone know and thinking hmmmm I wonder if what he's telling me is the truth. And if it is how long will it last.
lettie, your right, we all need to heal, heal as much as we can so we can have another healthy relationship, but how long does that take. I think for me a very long time.
I'm seeing a wonderful guy right now, I'm taking it slow, is that right or wrong. I just don't know, because right now it's very hard for me to feel.
BM; I admit I am seeing an old bf who is not "the one". He knows it, I know it, doesn't mean I don't love him as a person and lover, but hey, we are honest with each other and still see each other when time permits (it is somewhat LD, about 100 miles). If and when someone special comes along, he will be the first to know, and he knows it. I fought really understanding and accepting him the way he is; almost everything else comes before me, his business, etc., and I am at the point that is ok because when the times comes for me to be first, we have a great time together. But I will move on when the time comes.
Friend; no, I don't think it is wrong to see someone, just as long as you are completely honest about your feelings. Ex-bf was not honest with me. Have you sought out counseling for yourself? I'm not saying that is the answer either because it didn't help me that much, but when I feel really bad about my situation with ex-bf, I make myself stop and consider the source; nobody needs to be involved in his and his ex-w's drama, and it has been Jerry Springer material for years. His sister told me to stay away from both of them; they tend to drag their kids, family, friends into the ordeal. So everyone has let them be, which is the way it ought to be. How long have you been divorced? I really think that we all heal with time, how long is anyone's guess. But we have to make a concerted effort to heal, to begin to put negative feelings aside, to be with friends, family, and to just plain live again.
FRIEND,
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Do you know what I mean? What is love, if it isn't what I already had and that wasn't enough for someone.
Of course I know what you mean. It was enough in both our cases for nearly 20 years...FRIEND,..so dont think that the love you gave in your M was unappreciated all those years.
It's as if we HAD it.........and then lost it.......and now begin to wonder if we actually HAD it at all. I'm hoping that this uncertainty will fade.
To answer your earlier question : "How do they throw it away..etc?" I think this is where most of our pain comes from. That sudden reality that we were expendable, when for years, we were certain that we were worth more than gold to them.
I know this.......when I see potential for that kind of love again......I'll recognize it. It may be buried underneath my current LF's past hurts and pains.....and this is why I continue to nurture this R. I know that she was hurt badly last March..so I thought that maybe we could relate to one another and learn things, together.
A Big word....eh ? "TOGETHER" A really significant word to me, nowdays. It means to me
" You and I against the world, baby...no matter what."I know she has the potential......but will she allow it to come to the surface and embrace it ?
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Trust, love, questions........looking at someone know and thinking hmmmm I wonder if what he's telling me is the truth. And if it is how long will it last.
That's a tough one. My biggest problem, so far. Trusting a "non-DBer". I'm serious. I havent yet come across anyone that hasnt read DR...that I can truthfully say that really trust. Some of that paranoia was already embedded into my nature because of certain events from my past....but I had pretty much let all of that go.....well, that is, until I became an LBS.
Yes, it has affected us in many ways. More than most of us would like to admit, I'm sure.
We DO need to heal...that's for sure. Otherwise we'll never know if we are sabotaging the next R or not. I suppose that's part of my current problem with the LF.
Am I healing ? For that matter......is SHE....without the benefit of DR and all of you wonderful people ?
( listen to me, will ya'?......this hard charging, "tough guy" business man with a touchy-feely side ??? Eeeeeewwww !)
Actually, it feels pretty darn good to have someone to talk to that can relate to this pain....even after this many months have gone by.
I'll tell you something, FRIEND...and please dont take offense...because it's not meant to be negative, ok ?
I was curious about the FLA trip...and naturally went to the 2002 site and viewed all of the pics. I saw you smile.....yes.....but I also detected a certain sadness in your face. I guess it's to be expected. But it almost brought tears to my eyes. You hid it well...I'll grant you that, dear. But I saw it.........heck...I almost FELT it. So YES.....I KNOW exactly how it feels. I DO understand.
I dont know much about the future...but I DO know this.
I dont like this feeling one bit....and I WILL find a way to change it, somehow.
Some days are better than others.
SO I pray for all of you to have good days....everyday.....and not just sometimes !
BM
Wow BM............you do know my pain. At the Florida party, I was hurting so badly, I would of done anything to stop the pain I was in. It was almost like living in another world, that this isn't really happening.
I feel just like you in the sense of wanting my old life back, not my Ex,but that wonderful peaceful feeling. That feeling of being thankful I was alive. That's how I use to be, this has all changed me. I'm hoping with time I will get back to that girl.
I guess like my counselor once told me, I was lucky I was able to have that feeling for so long. Most people don't. It sounds like you were lucky to have had that feeling too.
Oh I can't believe you looked at those pictures....I hate myself in pictures. lol That was a really nice time, I will always cherish the memory.
Time, time, time............I always tell people to give themselves the time to heal. Maybe I should listen to my own advice.
BM, I'm sorry you have had to go through this pain also. It sounds like you have a good outlook about it, I hope I can have the same and really feel peace and happiness like I had before.
lettie, the guy I've been seeing knows exactly what I've gone through and he's very understanding........what confuses me are my feelings. I hope one day I will be able to have feelings that I will truly understand.
It seemed so simple when I was twenty, I met this wonderful guy, feel in love, no questions. Knew exactly how I felt, NOW no way, I have no idea. The only sure answer I ever give anybody when they ask me about my feelings is I DON"T KNOW!
Love to you both........
All...
I keep reading this thread, but just don't post. My thoughts about this topic are all over the place.
I don't know if we're ever really "healed." Morphed is more like it I think. Sometimes I think it changes our basic nature what we go through in a lot of these instances. I know it did mine... I used to be very trusting of anyone I met. My approach was the other person deserved my trust as a human being... he HAD to do something to deserve losing it. Well... now that my ex did that, it did change me. I'm not quite so trusting and that kills me because it does influence my behavior.
Is the sign of "healing" the fact we're ready to start new Rs? Don't know. All I know is that we aren't meant to live as hermits alone. So unnatural... never understood that monastic lifestyle.
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Otherwise we'll never know if we are sabotaging the next R or not.
And maybe part of this process is acquainting ourselves with ourselves just a bit more intimately. Discerning what we need physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Strengthening ourselves in order to support the dynamic of a healthy R? I don't know if there's a time or an "ah ha" there that tells us when we are ready for a new R, and who is the "most appropriate" person for that R. Still will always be a trial and error process until we get it right?
BM... don't eewwww over that touchy-feely side.
About that issue about trusting a non-DBer... I've debated back and forth to cue the GF into this site and DR. For some reason, so few folks seem to understand that it isn't 100% fate or OP that kill an R. Has anyone debated THAT one in a new R?
Friend, I understand how you feel, questioning what love really is. I feel numb, dazed, by what happened. I don't think I CAN love at this time, not even my H. What I DO feel is sad and disillusioned. I want to hope, I want to feel love again, I want to have faith in another person again. I just don't know if that will ever happen, and that makes me feel hopeless. Like you said, maybe I need more time. Think that will do it?
Hey CC,
Do I think time will do it? I know time helps, but will we ever heal, I can imagine not feeling the pain as much, but I can't imagine forgetting it.
I've been trying to remind myself that these WAS are sick people, atleast I know mine is. So I try not to be so hard on myself. Knowing I gave so much and it not being enough is hard...........but like BM said, it did mean something at the time.
It is a numb feeling, that's what I'm hoping goes away. We have both been through alot, we need to remind ourselves how far we've come. CC, have faith in faith. Keep reminding yourself, life is to short to not enjoy it. And when we are least expecting it something wonderful will happen.
You are a dear friend, always remember that.
I have often told Clark that if it had not been him, I do not believe that I could have EVER trusted again. I do think that there is something to the fact that he was a dber as well. I think all of us here share something special that is not easily found. Regardless of our personal beliefs, I believe we all here share a sensitivity, an emapthy and sense of commitment that is not found easily in this "ME" "feel good" centered society that we live in.
BM I know exactly what you mean with the special tenderness and nurturing love that you said you had before with your ex-wife. To me it's also a relationship where there is a higher level of trust, respect and consideration for each other that gives you a strong sense of safety and security. There is a strong feeling of "us".
My ex and I had a very passionate relationship in the way we did everything. We were a great team togther and could get done anything we set our minds to. If it was us against any outside force, watch out. The downfall was the internal strife. Our fights and making up were also doozies. We lacked that trust safety security. I will admit I always had in the back of my mind that I would be dumped, (the guy was a serial adulterer) that he would hurt me badly, and I could never totally trust him or let my guard down. He sensed that and didn't like it. As it turned out, I was right.
I don't know how to explain it, but even before we actually met, there was something about Clark that just radiated with trustworthiness, and kindness that I just knew it would be ok and it was. We made a connection that just kept growing.
I have never met anyone as considerate as this man, and the way he cares and watches out for me is something incredible. He literally spoils me rotten, but then I do the same for him. You guys have no idea the MAJOR trust issues I had, and the stupid upon stupid things I did, (which I am even too embarassed to post) but through it all he was patient and loving. He could see it for what it was and never took it personally. He's called it for what it is, and has helped me to see that I'm having him pay for the ex's transgressions. When I see it, I stop it. He has his own issues too, and I hung in there too. The thing about us is that we are very open and honest about EVERYTHING, we discuss everything, do not hold back anything, even the very uncomfortable mixed feelings we had about the exs.
With my divorce, I faced my worst fear, conquered it and survived. I was bent that never again I would be afraid. So in this relationship I figure I'd always have it all on the table. This is me, take it our leave it, this is how I feel. He did the same. This was not fun. Especially in the beginning when both of us still were in denial about still loving the exs more than we cared to admit. However, we were honest about any mixed feelings. It was a safe place to mourn the loss we both had. Neither one was really threatened, because we felt the same and understood. There wasn't the jealousy etc. I always felt that if it were to end, I wanted to get it over with sooner rather than later. So we piled it on. What I think happened was that it helped both of us to build trust in each other.
Trust is something that you get when you give it. It grows and builds.
I know that we hear all the time you have to heal first before you get involved. Sure makes sense, but when does this happen? When are you totally healed? I think sometimes it means that you have healed "enough" to be ready for a relationship, but do you ever really totally heal? In a very real sense, Clark and I have helped each other heal. Is that good or bad, I don't know.
MaryC,
I think it's got to be good. What you and Clark have is different then what either had in your marriages, but I think it's just as good. It's a different love but a love just the same.
It's like the love you have for your children compared to the love you have for your partner. It's still love.....just a different kind.
I think that's what this is going to teach us, that we can love in many ways, not just one. Maybe we have such a hard time because we do want to find that same love we once had for our Ex's. Maybe that's a problem, maybe we should except the new love for what it is and try not to compare what once was.
Do you know what I mean? Maybe we put to much pressure on ourselves to regain that so called Dieing Love and learn to enjoy a new love.
Oh well, enough for tonight...........
LOVE to you all, lol
Friend,
You are on to something! Several years ago (prior to the bomb, MLC and divorce) Clark had a friend from work who lost his wife to cancer and a few years later met someone and re-married. He asked him what that was like, since he knew how much this man had loved his first wife and how devastated he was when she died.
The man thought for a moment and told him just what you said Friend... different. Not better, not worse just different and added how lucky he was to have found love twice in a lifetime. I think there is some truth to that.
I think we make a mistake if we try to re-create with someone new what we had in the past with the ex. It won't work because all of the dynamics are different, plus we all have been changed by the divorce experience.
With my divorce, I lost my innocense and in a very real way, there is a sadness that I will always carry in my heart. We have been profoundly affected in ways that are unknown to those that are fortunate enough to never have this experience. How can our subsequent relationships not be affected by such a life-altering event? We can never look at the world the same after we've hurt as we have.
I do believe you are right when you say we need to enjoy our new love. We need to appreciate the gifts this person gives us. They are not the same, but still good.
MaryC, you said Clark is kind. That's the one thing I'm looking for in my next R, kindness. The other thing you said is you wanted to never be afraid again. This is my other big demon, I'm so afraid, mostly of my H. I just can't seem to get over that. When he calls, I run. When he comes here, I run. I cannot talk to him or see him, still. He brings out the worst fear and panic I've ever felt in my entire life. This is what I need to deal with and conquer for now. Trust is an issue I'm not even close to thinking about right now. I have my work cut out for me, obviously.
Friend, thank you, you always make me feel better and give me hope. No, I don't think that realistically, I'll ever be completely healed. I would like to love again, and hopefully, it will make the memory of all this fade a little. I'm just worried that it's going to take me a very long time. Maybe as you say, when I least expect it, things will take a turn for the better.
CC
Why are you so afraid of your husband? What can he do to you that he hasn't already?
My biggest fear was that my ex would leave me and he would be right all the things he said about me. I believed all the nonsense he fed to me, about my being so impossible, no man would ever put up with me, my kids would see how awful a mother I was and would resent me and I would be alone and miserable for the rest of my life. Know what? He was full of it.
CC you don't need to be afraid. Examine what is that fear and panic that he brings out in you is all about. You have no idea how liberating it is to toss out all those scripts. Find that friend inside of you. There is no perfect being on this planet. You have good and bad like everybody else. You are who you are. If there is something you don't like about yourself, you have the power to change it if you so choose. If you don't want to, you don't have to. Love that person and be yourself. Have confidence that you are a worthwhile person, find your dream and pursue it. Live again.
I do think that love finds us as we live life. We have to do our part. We have to stop being afraid, we have to conquer our fears, we have to live again, and that involves some risk. We have to push ourselves to do some things that may be good for us, but a little uncomfortable at first. Trust is not something that just happens, it is something that grows little by little.
MaryC, having any sort of contact with my H just brings up the rejection over and over again. When I'm away from him I can live my life and feel Ok. When I have contact, I have to deal someone who doesn't think I'm good enough. I know I shouldn't buy into that, and I should toss his script aside, and I do try. It's just taking me forever.
Mary, reading what you've said really helps me. I still have loving feelings for my X (embarrassed to admit it) and I wonder if they will ever go away. But then he admits he still "cares" for me and will always do so, and that hasn't stopped him from being in a very important relationship. I guess the key is openness and honesty. If I could be honest and open with a new person, we could build something. But I'll never be able to pretend it is as simple and innocent as it once was.
CC, I understand your fear. I felt it (still feel it too) but maybe to a lesser extent. I think your X is "nice", like mine, and maybe that makes it much harder. Here's what I've come to understand:
Your X hurt you more than anyone else has ever hurt you in life. All your trusting feelings were violated. You had a basic sense of safety with X that turned out to be based on lies and deceit.
In reaction you built up a wall to keep him out. But he comes around and acts like a friend, tempting you to let down the wall. The scared part of you tells you not to, the part that still loves him wants to, so you flee in confusion and panic and fear.
Now imagine that your X was instead the type who was angry and hostile. You would still have all the hurt feelings but you would know that he would maintain a safe distance and that your wall would not be threatened. So you would not have to flee.
I still cannot really look X in the eye when I talk to him (a sign of my anger and hurt). I still try to control the conversation (not let him talk too much, don't want to appear to be the receptive listener). But I don't have to flee. And I notice my comfort level growing since I have found the ability to state my boundaries. It has taken me a long, long time to even figure out what my boundaries are!!! But when I do manage to figure them out, AND STATE THEM, then I feel my fear around X subside.
For example, I recently told STBX that I didn't want OW at kids' games and functions. I acknowledged that I had no control over whether she came or not, but I stated that if she came, she would be infringing on MY social circle and that was something I would not like. I also told STBX that if they are together at an event, to please let me control the interaction -- X is the type who would come up with her and act all friendly and like we were one big happy family. I don't want OW in my family.
That was freeing to me, because now if she DOES come to a kid's function, I don't have to pretend I like it or that I want to talk to them. I can trust that they will keep a safe distance. THEREFORE I DON'T HAVE TO FLEE!
Does that make sense?
In other words, I think the problem is a boundary problem. We are pleasers, we always want to fix the problem, make everyone comfortable. Until we feel deep in our souls that it's OK NOT to make everyone feel good, we will be trying to make interactions with the X comfortable, thereby increasing our hurt! We are our own worst enemies! When we put the walls securely in place, then we don't have to defend through flight.
The best way I found to state my boundaries to STBX was through email. I have more courage in print. It was hard for him to hear my boundaries. I have had to remind him several times that he is not welcome in my house, etc. But he's finally getting that we will not be friends.
Does this help any? The next time your X does something that makes you want to flee, could you analyze it and come up with some boundary that you could state that would make you feel safer?
Carlotta
"Your X hurt you more than anyone else has ever hurt you in life. All your trusting feelings were violated. You had a basic sense of safety with X that turned out to be based on lies and deceit.
In reaction you built up a wall to keep him out. But he comes around and acts like a friend, tempting you to let down the wall. The scared part of you tells you not to, the part that still loves him wants to, so you flee in confusion and panic and fear."
Right on Carlotta!!!!!!!!
Carlotta, thanks for your help. I read your post very carefully to see what I can learn from you. Ok, for a start, H comes in the house when he comes for S on the weekends. I was doing this for S, so he can show his dad his "stuff", but it makes me flee the house. Do you say your H doesn't come in? The other thing is, I don't know for sure if H has an OW or not, and I don't want to know. In a way, I'm just closing my eyes and ears because "ignorance is bliss". I don't want to see him because he'll act all happy and comfortable with me, which just hurts because the reason he can do this is because I mean nothing to him. Does that make sense? Since he's the one who filed for D, I feel like the rejected one and he's the one who had the luxury of having a choice. It feels really bad when you don't have choices, it makes you feel so unimportant and irrelevant. But that's nothing new to any of us who have been left behind, is it. To me it looks like the only way I'll ever be able to look him in the eye is when I have no feelings for him. This whole thing has tilted power to a point where it's so unbalanced in his favor. How I wish things were more evenhanded, I'm tired of it all going his way and him feeling like the strong one for so long. Please pass along any suggestions you have for me, I need them.
CC, you've come to the right place!
You said: "It feels really bad when you don't have choices, it makes you feel so unimportant and irrelevant. " and
"This whole thing has tilted power to a point where it's so unbalanced in his favor. How I wish things were more evenhanded, I'm tired of it all going his way"
CC, you DO have choices.
The power is only unbalanced because you let it be.
If you're tired of doing everything his way, tell him that from now on you'll be doing it your way in your house.
Yes, it certainly is FINE for you to deny X access to your house. I too felt I had to let him have free access for the sake of the kids. Once I found out about most recent OW, I felt such anger that I put an end to the open door policy. I asked him by firm email to ring the bell any time he wanted to enter. Sometimes he slips and I have to remind him again -- like the time I came home to find him sitting on my couch watching videos with one of the kids.
Think about this CC: HE can reject you to the point of filing for divorce, but having done that, you don't even feel like you have the right to ask him to pick up S at the door? Why do you give him all the rights and yourself none?
Because you have the idea in your head that your job is to fix things. Well, your X broke it and you cannot fix it.
I know that my X's relationship with our kids has suffered as a result of my closed door policy. But there would not have been such a policy if X had chosen to stay with his family. My relationship with my kids is closer than ever, because I chose to stay. He could have chosen to do the same, but he did not. His relationship with your S is his problem. If S wants to show him his new toys, let S bring them to Dad's house. Let Dad take responsibility for figuring out ways to improve his relationship with S that do not involve sacrifice on YOUR part.
It was a hard lesson for me to learn that I don't always have to be nice, turn the other cheek, smooth things over. But learning that lesson has freed me from much pain.
Think about it -- your X decided he didn't love you anymore and was certain enough about it to move out. (And you can
bet there is an OW, but that's another conversation.) He
was the one who decided to leave his kid. (As my daughter says, Mom, he didn't leave just you, he left us too.)
There are consequences to his decision. They are not all pleasant. We all wish we could make hard decisions without suffering from hard consequences. But that is not reality. Life doesn't work that way. But the fact that life doesn't work that way is not your fault and is not something you should try to fix. It's a law of the univers and out of your control.
Put your energy into controlling what you can, CC: your house. Make one small step today to set a boundary on your territory. You can do it.
Carlotta
Carlotta, you are right. I'm thinking right now about how I can phrase it in an email, and what to tell S about why I no longer want his dad to come in. So your H rings the door and then waits outside, or does he come in? Yes, I need to set some boundaries to be sure. And yes, I think it would make me feel better. I've been way too afraid of making things worse, but how much worse can it get, and he's the one who did this, right? Why do I feel that I have to accomodate HIM? Yikes, I have a lot of thinking to do. Your situation is so similar to mine, and your H sounds so much like mine, so please keep the advice coming as I know it can apply to me. How is your R with your H now that you set some boundaries with him? Has he become more hostile, and also, how do you communicate with him, emails? I do need to adopt the attitude that he broke it, he will have to be the one to make it better, not me. Trouble with my H is, when he gets angry, or feels "challenged", he gets nastier and meaner, so I'm quite fearful of going up against him. I need to get a whole lot stronger.
CC
Carlotta made some excellent points. You have control over your life and get set the boundaries with which you feel comfortable. He doesn't dictate the terms of the relationship the two of you will have. Maybe one day it won't bother you for him to go your son's room, but now it does, so you don't have to accept that. Mine rings the doorbell, he's come in when I have inivited him, not other times.
There are natural consequences to the actions that he took by leaving the family and I'm afraid in part you have been protecting him from them. It isn't business as usual anymore, by his choice. Your son needs to understand too that it isn't business as usual and that there is a place that is mommy's and a place that is daddys. It sends your son the message too, that daddy did leave, and this is your house now. He can bring any toys he wants to daddy or ask your permission first before inviting daddy in. Be practical and reasonable about requests your son makes. Usually he can take a toy over, but if it's a big item, then make the exception and allow the guy in. The difference is that it will be on YOUR terms and at that point YOUR choice, not something imposed on you.
Your husband may get a little hostile at first when when you set the boundary, but once he sees that's how it is and you aren't backing down, he'll settle down and accept it.
The decision to leave was his, but you have some choices about the aftermath. Don't forget that.
Friend:
Quote:
...Oh I can't believe you looked at those pictures....I hate myself in pictures. lol
You are one fine lady and have nothing to "hate" in those pictures.....trust me. Absolutley gorgeous.
( I wish I would have gone to the party last year, after seeing them, too...chuckle...)
BM
CC.......CC........CC
Set those boundaries. Carlotta and Mary have done just what I have done. I have done it since day one, you know why, because it hurt me to much if I didn't. And it was his choice to leave. And he was going to pay the consequences.
I know in his world he couldn't imagine the boundaries I placed, but his world was not the real world. I was dealing with the reality of it all, so he had to too.
The more I showed him the reality of it all, the more he got depressed. He si now seeing everything he has done has not made him any happier.
I know I have just floored him with my reactions. As far as your son, I was very honest with my girls, I simply told them the truth......it is way to hurtful for me to see your father and I cannot be his friend. They said they completely understood.
They were hurting too, so they could just imagine how much I was. Just tell your son how you feel CC, he will understand. I'm sure it hurts him when his father leaves, tell him it hurts you when he comes. I'm sure he could relate.
I truly believe me setting boundaries is what helped me survive. It was just self preservation, he wasn't going to hurt me or take anything away from me anymore.
It has helped me heal. Be strong CC, set the limits you need to, do it for you. Go with what you know will help you. Nobody else CC, if it helps you, do it.
And remember have faith in faith.
MaryC, first of all, thank you so much for lending me a little space on your thread for some advice! I didn't mean to do that actually, but it's been really helpful so thanks. One thing my H doesn't like is consequences, it makes him see red and he's a fighter by nature, loves challenges. It's part of what has made him successful at least lately in his job. A bit aggressive by nature if you know what I mean. I'm strong but not assertive, which sounds like a paradox but it really isn't. I get hurt easily and aggressive people scare me. Anyway, I'm going to work on setting those boundaries. I just don't want him to think I'm mad because I think he'd actually get off on that, thinking that I'm miserable while he's loving life. I've tried to hold my head up high, particularly after the many, many months of groveling I did in the beginning! Once I started to avoid seeing him or talking to him, he took that as defiance or "snubbing" on my part, so see, I can't win. But it doesn't matter now, we're D and I really shouldn't care what he thinks.
Friend, I love what you say "have faith in faith" and I know exactly what you mean by it. And you know what, I HAVEN'T had faith in faith for a very long time now, but I want to. As I said to Mary, I want to set boundaries, but I know he'll take it that I'm mad because that's how he reads everything I do. He doesn't realize that it's about protecting myself, not being mad at him. I'm going to try very hard to work on myself, on being more assertive about what I need and want. Thanks for encouraging me in that direction.
BM,
Thank you for your compliment, you are very sweet.
Thank you Mary for initiating this thread. I am several years behind you in this process. I sincerely appreciate your candor in this on-going struggle to process our new life. Lily
Ok,
I have a question.
When I try to set "boundries" for myself....I'm accused of being controlling. I know that the GF has issues that stem from her childhood with anything she perceives as controlling....and I try to make allowances for that.
I just dont see the point in getting upset with me because I want to lay out certain parameters for whom I want in my life...and how I expect them to act.
For example.....let's pretend that I had a real problem with people that drink alcohol..( I dont)....and that I simply choose not to associate with them. That would be seen as controlling, to her...and I would get chastised for preferring not to hang out with them.
Another example: "Where I come from....when two people love each other.....they advise the other ( ahead of time) where they are going after work, so the other can plan accordingly." Ok....that's my position. She calls it controlling. I call it consideration.
So...... while I know that I still have a lot of healing to do.....it seems that she does, too. The rub comes in, when we dont recognize that there's more healing needed.
But I just dont view boundries as control.....not control of another person, anyway. It's like this....I'm going to choose how I want to live and who I want to hang out with.... and if you dont fit into those parameters......I choose NOT to hang out with you. (That ticks her off.)
Is it control....or simply choosing my friends......or mate ?
BM
BigMouth49,
It would only be controlling if you chose her friends.
When people love and care about other people, they try and do things to make the other person feel secure and happy.
It seems like you are doing all the giving in this R and she is doing all the taking. Perhaps I am off-base. I'm not there with you both. I only know what you post.
If it were me, I would probably back up and date other people until I found someone whose thinking is more compatible with mine. I'm not so sure she is healing from past Rs. She seems a bit selfish. Just my opinion...
rayanne
Thanks Rayanne.
Kinda hard to back off when she lives in my home, dontcha' think ?
I expect certain things. Maybe that's not such a good idea sometimes. But I am who I am....and I suppose she is who she is.
BM
No BM, I sort of meant I would ask her to leave. Perhaps I'm stepping into an area that isn't any of my business, but I think you if you stick with her you are going to end up with a lifetime of making concesssions.
Obviously in the give and take of Rs we get our own way sometimes and other times need to give in. There should be a balance on both sides though. Do you think you have that It's a question only you can answer.
I was in a M where I made all the concessions. Didn't really get me much. He left anyway. I would never even consider a R like that again.
Please forgive me if I've crossed the line here. Like I say, only you can evaluate your R.
rayanne
Big Mouth,
I have to say, I agree with Rayanne on this issue
I am getting the same accusations from my STBX. In fact, I asked him to be a little forthcoming about what he does with my 3 year old when he has him, and his answer was that he wasn't going to tell me a thing because I was way too controlling and I just couldn't stand that I didn't know what was going on in my son's life. STBX sees my questions to my son about how his day went, or what he did with Daddy controlling. I see it as being involved in S's life.
My STBX is also lashing out against anything that appears to be "control" because of his issues from childhood (controlling mother). However, if he could "walk in my shoes" he would see that it isn't a control issue. I think WAS's have an especially hard time doing that though. I have noticed that the people who accuse other people of being controlling are usually trying desperately to take a hold of the reins themselves.
Lets face it - we all "control" our lives to a certain extent, if what you mean by control is choosing certain paths, choosing your friends etc. (Using that definition, your GF would qualify as a control freak as well.) That is not being "controlling". That is acting on the free will that we all have.
Good luck!
Breaking in here to remind you guys about the FL Party coming up.... dfb, rob, dulcie, momasr, ABHElp... Who all is planning on coming? So far the ones I know for sure are Pearl, BarbieDoll, gd1, nursemom, MaryC, Clark Kent, Blair, WhoamInow, Jeannine, h20Nut, chris hines, banjogirl (bgirl), friend, crisch and lseguy.
Come on, it is open to everyone.... My house will be open to anyone..so if money is a problem you can stay there (5 minutes from the hotel) or there are several people wanting to share a room.
There is a difference between setting boundaries and controlling, respect and controlling, and being accountable and contolling.
Your example of letting each other know where you will be going is an example of mutual respect and common consideration. NOT of control. It would only be control if you were to tell her where to go or not go, and if she didn't have the "freedom of choice".
For example, I have the freedom of choice to go to happy hour with friends after work. Sometimes I decide to go, sometimes not, sometimes I may decide at the last second maybe. Regardless, I call my SO to tell him of what I am thinking of doing. I do this because it is the considerate thing to do, I am not asking for "permission". He acknowleges my plans, and I then tell him about when I will be home. Taking it a step further, I would not be offended or "feel controlled" at all if he would one time or another say something to me like "gee I thought we could catch an early dinner and a movie", or even if he said one day out right "I had a tough day and really want to be with you, do you mind just coming home?" Why am I not "controlled"? Because it is STILL my choice, because he is a high priority in my life and I WANT him to tell me how he feels. I trust him enough to know that he will be honest, if he doesn't want me to go there is a valid reason, it isn't a game he's playing.
There is an element of trust and good will that is critical in a relationship for things like this not to be an issue. I think that there is an issue of giving the "benefit of the doubt" that is important. In the example above, I assume the best of intentions coming from my SO, while your LF is assuming the worst of intentions coming from you when she says you are "controlling".
She is assuming that you want to control her life, tell her what to do, or even that you want her to get your permission, when in fact all that you want is some common consideration. Maybe she had controlling parents, husbands or boyfriends,etc in her past, but you should not have to pay for that. The two of you need to discuss what you want, why this is important to you, and what it means to you. She needs to tell you why it feels like control to her. After you both share this information, she has the choice to do it or not, now knowing where it is that you are coming from.
I learned a very important lesson with demise of my marriage and my divorce. I had to be "free to be me". I am who I am, love me or leave me. For this reason, I was always upfront and honest of who I was and was not. What you see is what you get. And as far as I was concerned, he got the good, the bad and the ugly early on, and he if he wanted to walk, he could leave me sooner rather than later. Call this setting boundaries, setting parameters, being true to myself, whatever you wish. But that's where the soul searching led and something I would not compromise in any subsequent relationship. I don't play games, and don't want anyone who does.
I think this is what you are saying to her too. There is nothing wrong with that. So when you say to her:
Quote:
I'm going to choose how I want to live and who I want to hang out with.... and if you dont fit into those parameters......I choose NOT to hang out with you.
I see it as you being honest and telling her the truth. Maybe she (Chuckle) "can't handle the truth". It's not about control at all, it's about choosing your friends and mate.
I think it is asset to know who you are and what you want, and have the confidence to be upfront about it. Otherwise you get a phony or a game player. If she can't see it, maybe someone else will.
BM,
I don't see what your asking of her as controlling at all. It sounds to me like your just being considerate. I always called my Ex when I was doing something else, not to get permission but to let him know so he wouldn't worry, I expected the same CONSIDERATION from him.
I wonder why she feels your being controlling? There's got to be more to it, I would ask her and then explain where your coming from.
I pick and choose who I want to be with and who I don't all the time. I don't want people in my life that aren't good for me...........you have that right. It protects you. Nothing wrong with that.
Good luck BM.............
Quote:
Good luck BM.............
Thanks.....and that's very much appreciated...but I really dont believe in luck...chuckle..
"The harder I work, the luckier I get."
I dont remember who said that, but I believe it.
BM
You know BM your right, I don't believe in luck either, and I love that quote. One of my favorites is "God helps those who help themselves."
Hi Mary,
Just wondered if you could explain 'lifetime alimoney'? Do you mean that even when he retires he still pays a monthly amount? Does it stay the same?
Linda
Hmm.. well...as LUCK would have it, FRIEND.......she's gone....dangit ! ( see my thread)
I have been doing some reading and have come to the conclusion that we use different love languages.
Mostly because I havent healed yet from the D, last August.
I think I need a double dose of more than one of them at this point in time in order to feel loved.
I think maybe, the way I word things when I ask her questions is a big part of the problem, and it may stem from my lack of healing at this point.
She gets defensive, then I get irritated when she shuts down and doesnt talk.....( I hate that) ...then I begin to show the anger by saying the EXACT wrong thing.....she gets even more defensive...and off to the races we go. Some of my problem is that I have this need to be "worth it" to her...and need to see it in many ways, I suppose.
That HAS to be a form of leftover pain from the EXW.
I want to be "worth" her taking the time to talk out problems. When she uses HER language....she sees ( or think she sees) where I'm headed in a conversation and decides not to participate, by merely clamming up. This seems to be HER way of avoiding saying things she doesnt mean, in anger.
So......how in the world do I put this viscious pattern to rest....when I feel so unloved and unappreciated at times?
How does one let go of the residual effects from the pain of a WAW ?
I think I have been sabotaging my new R.....all along.
I really listened to her this afternoon, ( she left) and I have this thing I do when she pushes my buttons...and that's to try and try to resolve it.....only to get hurt...then I tell her to leave. The trouble is.....is that she lives ( lived....now) with me in MY home. That has to take all of her security away when I do that. She's said as much. Is it because I dont want to be dumped again...so I take control of the sitch and be the "dumper" rather than the "dumpee" ? If so......this is very, very wrong...and has to be linked to my lack of healing.
As it stands now.....she isnt coming back...and although she reacted violently last night.....I think I was the one that really pushed it...just to stop my own pain.
Healing.......I thought I was 85% healed. But not now...not after looking in the mirror.
BM
Mary..I really liked your explanation of what was controlling and what was not. My C said something similar to me. He said "TC...you are not controlling....it's just that you are mature, H is not....you are responsible, H is not.....you are accountable and expect H to be, H is not". Throughout our 7 years of M and 3 OW, I always wanted to know WHY H was not happy and left and/or cheated on me. All he could tell me was that I was "too controlling". I still, to this day, do not know what exactly I did that was too controlling. I asked him to give me some concrete examples, and he could not...just the abstract adjective "too controlling".
I have spent many hours in C trying to figure out what the heck I did that was "too controlling"....to no avail. That's when my C finally told me what I wrote earlier in this post, that I was NOT controlling. In fact, C told me that H was the one trying to control ME! And , that I was allowing him to by remaining in limbo and letting him be off with his OW du-jour!
The only thing I could ever think of was this... H is a cop... I teach high school...these are both positions where you MUST be in control. H did say to me a few times "you treat me like one of your students". Basically, the only area I can see that I was controlling was with money, because H was out of control with money. We budgeted for him to have $100 a week spending money...money just for him...not for "us"...because if we went out to dinner or a movie or needed gas or whatever, it all went on our credit card....no, this was $100 a week cash for him to have in his pocket and spend however he wanted it... I thought this was a LOT, but he insisted he needed it, so that is what we agreed on when we first got M.....Well, he would take that $100 out on Monday, then another $100 on Wed., then another $100 out on Sat......and I was like I DON'T THINK SO! There was no way we could afford for him to spend that much money, we simply didn't have that much income coming in ! But, he viewed me telling him "no , you can't spend $300 a week every week because we cannot afford that" as being too controlling!
But, as far as being "too controlling" in other areas than money, I don't get it. H went fishing or played golf .... went mudding in his 4-wheeler.....went out with his friends... even took weekend trips with the guys....I encouraged him to do all of that. Being a cop is a very stressful job and I knew he needed those diversions.
Anyway, this whole "controlling" thing hits a sore spot with me, only because that is the excuse my H used to leave and to cheat. Really, we all know that the only ones we can control are ourselves. TC
TC,
Listen to your C, and stop trying to figure out what you did wrong. I know because I have done it too. There are no easy answers TC, you have to let that go, I do it too.
But really it is all about them. TC, you can't figure it out, so try to focus on moving on. Although we both were not perfect and nobody is, we most certainly didn't deserve this.
I just wish now my Ex would of been more of a stronger person to be able to fight to keep our marriage together. He wasn't.
Friend scores another one. And I think it is Blair who says this all the time too. It really isn't about anything other than the WAS, unless in cases of physical or emotional abuse, wasn't strong enough, mature enough, committed enough, emotionally and mentally healthy enough to stay and face issues, work on problems, renegotiate the contract.
Control....is just an excuse to justify leaving. And yes, they are the ones who were controlling in that they needed ot feel in control. Remember how the 'experts' say that the most rebellious kids really want to feel their parents 'taking control' and showing by that that they love them? I think it comes into play with the WASs too. The new OW isn't perceived as controlling, even tho the OW may be doing all the same things.
Saying we controlled is convenient because then they don't have to be accountable for THEIR actions.
It is all so sad,isn't it?
I've been away for past few days. I have company for two weeks, plus with my d home and Clark's son is here for the summer.
Update on my ex's Boston trip. My d. tell me that they didn't stay with our old friends, they stayed at a hotel, but did go see the Pops at the Esplanade like we used to. The fact that he didn't stay with our friends made me feel much better. This is still a sensitive area for me, because it goes down issues of trust and friendship. I know it shouldn't bother me, but it still does...
GD, Friend, I do agree with you that their accusations of of "control" is nothing more than an excuse when they want out. Nothing more than a justification for actions that are not justifible...
GD, I answered the lifetime alimony question on your thread earlier. Short answer is that life time means for as long as you live, and the amount you get is based on his income, so if he earns less due to retirement, you get less.
BM Sounds like you read Five Love Languages. Good book, but issues you guys have I feel go beyond, communicating love. I think part of the problem is that you both aren't at the same place. Give her some space, and this may mean to let her move out and continue to date her, even though this isn't what you want to do. I posted on your thread earlier too.
Gotta run. More later.
mary, I'm doing just that. She's out tomorrow....and wants to work on it from across town. Ok. I'll go for it...as long as she shows interest in C.
Others:
I like what you guys said about control. Not sure where it came from..but makes sense to me. Perhaps allowing her to "take back control of her life"...will show me things about her I never knew. Good things, and possibly not the bad things that concern me. But if they are...then I'd rather know now, then 10 years into a new marriage, eh ?
BM
Hey BM and all my other wonderful friends,
I was wondering. I'm in a relationship now. Well, I guess it's a relationship, we date alot, and he's the only guy I am dating.
But I, unlike you, won't even consider him moving in with me or vise versa. I am just not ready. I am starting to really like my space. I enjoy his company, but I enjoy my own time.
Will I ever want to get married again? Is he not the right one because I feel this way? He's really a great guy. So why don't I feel like I did when I was twenty? Will I ever? Should I?
Do you feel the same way about this women that you felt about your Ex?
The only thing I can come up with is I'm not healed. I'm just not ready, and I have to continue to take it slow. He doesn't seem to mind at all. So I will not change my goals and just keep focused on me and my girls. I will continue to enjoy his company, and see where it goes.
Just showing you the all the questions I have. And should I have all those questions? Is it normal?
Love to you all...............thanks BM.
Hi Friend,
Quote:
But I, unlike you, won't even consider him moving in with me or vise versa. I am just not ready.
I wasn't, either....unusual circumstances made it happen...and it was supposed to be for a week, only.
But as she and I got to know each other better...we decided she'd stay.
It was that time when I felt a bit like I did 20 years ago. It's somewhat different now, in that it's a bit more mature type of thing. ( although you wouldnt know it right now...lol !).
I do know this: Because she's been here for so long now..I am used to her being near me, and I dont want to go back to living apart....even though that's what's happening today.
I suspect we'll be together again soon from all I can tell at this point, after a few weeks/months of joint C sessions. But no one can be sure at this point.
To answer your question, the answer is NO....it really wasnt like with the EXW. It's different, more reserved....maybe a little bit more cautious. I think that's because of my leftover pain from the D....which is something I'm going to address in C.
But yeah.....I DO feel as strongly about this woman as I did for the X, many years ago and perhaps it's just a little less intense because of the age and maturity level of both of us.
Somewhat the same......but different.
I can relate to "all those questions", FRIEND. I think I over analyze and just need to let things happen more.
BM
Thanks BM, it's nice to know those feelings can and do come back.
Your a very intense guy, has anyone ever told you that? That's nice. You really know how you feel, aren't afraid to go for it and say it.
I hope to reach that point someday........I'm working on it.
Hi Mary,
Good to hear that things weren't quite as bad as expected...I too have strong feelings about memories. I can understand how it hurts,even after many years.
Worse is when they do it while still married to some of us. When I think I have it bad, I reflect on those here on the board who have spouses openly living with their HOs and the children are having to deal with it. Makes me sick.
Thanks for the 'losing the battle/winning the war' letter. It really makes sense. Mary, you always help my days go better. THank you.
Friend, glad to hear there is someone wonderful in your life. Glad you are taking it slow. Do the girls like him?
BM: good luck to you re counseling. Get the very best (maybe trade an estate plan for a life plan HAHA) . You are giving all you can and should be proud of yourself!
Hugs to all, gd
gd,
The man I'm seeing is very sweet, caring has been divorced eight years. OK, this is how slow I'm taking it, my girls have not met him yet, and he does not know where I live. Is that slow or what, but you know what, it works. My girls have gotten to know him by the phone alittle at a time. I tell them about him, and if you were to ask them they would say they like him so far.
I don't know gd, it seems to be working this way for us. He doesn't seem to mind and he seems to really understand. We don't even talk about it much. If I go to dinner with him I tell the girls they are welcomed. They both are interested in meeting him, it just hasn't occurred. My sisters and my BIL's have, my girls know this.
So.........so far, so good. Just doing what I feel is right. Seems to be working.
Gd, I always read your posts and keep you in my prayers.
Friend:
Quote:
Your a very intense guy, has anyone ever told you that?
Moi' ?
BM