On the first day of this New Year, I asked God to help me forgive my exW for the pain that she caused me. And then I said "I forgive exW for the pain that she caused me". And I meant it when I said it.
Forgiving her has helped me to let go of the power that I had been giving her by holding onto the pain that I felt.
In the past, even recently, I couldn't imagine being able to do this. I do believe that it's progress.
Yes Antlers,
That is HUGE! It is the first really big step to take in letting go and moving on.
I don't think I've ever really forgiven my ex although he never showed any remorse and that was the part i really couldn't get past.
But it is different for each of us - how we deal with our past, shapes our future.
I am glad that you have turned this corner.
All the best for you in this new year of your life. A new chapter in your book.
Barb
She's never shown any remorse either, but my decision to forgive her has nothing to do with that. I've seen many times on this board that "forgiveness is a gift you give yourself". Doing what I have (something that I couldn't possibly have imagined doing even a short time ago) has definitely had a positive impact on me...I feel more 'at ease' I feel much less 'torn up'. It seems 'more peaceful' spiritually and emotionally to me.
I feel like I took a big step...and I feel like I'm really making progress since my decision last Halloween to start letting go and moving forward.
Antlers,
I heard this story long ago and posted it somewhere but cannot find it now…so here it is.
The End of the World
And so it happened that the skies everywhere turned dark and thunderous and suddenly a loud Deep voice from above, said "THE WORLD WILL END IN 7 DAYS."
Upon hearing this, people everywhere noticed that suddenly everyone's faces began to change colors or bore marks. Their faces bore the colors & marks of their sins.
For instance, some had green lines on their face for envy or jealousy, red for lust, or their foreheads had "A" on them for adultery, "T" for thieves, etc. "L" for liars, etc.
"C" for coveting, "M" for murderers...
The next day, a voice from above AGAIN said "THE WORLD WILL END IN 6 DAYS"...
Now, people began to hide. Politicians wore bags on their heads, and celebrities began wearing hats and head coverings so no one could see their sins. Others avoided seeing their neighbors or families and stayed isolated.
People wondered what had happened and governments thought their enemies had tried to intimidate them. Others thought a prank had been played on them.
The next day the same clouds hovered over and the same loud voice told everyone everywhere, "THE WORLD WILL END I N 5 DAYS."
This alarmed people as they began to wonder what it could mean, and where the voice came from.
The next day the same things happened and the voice said "THE WORLD WILL END IN 4 DAYS. "
People began to arm themselves and prepare for an attack or plague. Some began to fight with those who had betrayed them or those they feared.
When the voice came the next day & said "THE WORLD WILL END IN 3 DAYS", the wealthy people began to give their wealth away and others did acts of service & favors for others.
There was growing panic and many began to flee the cities.
Then the voice said THE WORLD WILL END IN 2 DAYS" and everyone began to gather in churches, synagogues, mosques and temples of all sorts. They prayed and prayed but still the voice said,
THE WORLD WILL END IN ONE DAY.""
That night In one home, a couple looked out their window at the clouds gathering.
The husband had the mark of adultery on his head and the wife had the green marks of jealousy and envy on hers.
The husband turned to his wife and said
"I hope you know you are the only woman I ever truly loved. Can you please forgive me for how I hurt you?"
She said "Yes I forgive you. And I never meant the things said b/c I was angry. Can you forgive me for my resentments and the terrible things I said?"
And he too, said "I forgive you."
Suddenly the marks on their faces vanished and their faces cleared completely as they held each other tightly hugging--AND FORGIVING….
When they realized why this had happened, the word quickly spread.
Brothers who had been estranged for years put aside their resentments,
and embraced,
couples let go of their painful pasts, and reunited.
Former business enemies shook hands
Warring nations and tribes with feuds, all stopped, and reached out
and they FORGAVE each other…
and the faces cleared as did the skies above…forgiveness cleansed the world;
And the world was saved.
I sent the following text to my brother regarding the current situation. Our kids are really having problems. He has talked with her previously about these problems, and she told him that she harbors a lot of resentment against me.
"All during our separation, throughout the divorce, and even after the divorce...I still wanted her back. She was moving on and I was holding on. I held on for 3 years before I finally made the firm commitment to let go. She and I had good communication for an 8 month period, between February and October of 2011. We laughed and joked. I still had hopes that I could get her back. It all came to a halt the first weekend in October when she hooked up with other guy again. I tried one last time after that. I saw it as my last desperate attempt to get her back.
She was over 3 years ahead of me at letting go and moving on. It (letting go and moving on) is still very new to me. I've only been at it a very short period of time.
My only concern now is my kids. They are broken. My kids have not been co-parented since before their mother left. My kids have not been a priority to their parents throughout all of this. My kids have been used as weapons by their parents against each other. These kids love both of their parents, and they need both of their parents.
My wish for my kids is that they receive the love, support, and cooperation from their parents that they need and deserve.
My wish for exW is that she has love, health, and happiness. I also hope she can learn to forgive me and let go of pain and resentment from the past because I would hate for it to affect her happiness or cause her any more pain."
He responded to my text with the following.....
"Then there needs to be a way for you to communicate this absolutely 'NEW' sentiment to her. I believe this to be the most important and defining 'moment' you have facing you."
I would appreciate hearing some feedback from you folks regarding this?
The last time I specifically mentioned coparenting to her was a good while back (about 2 years ago) when she was still responding with hatefulness and refusals to coparent.
The other day when my brother talked to her about our kids and their difficulties, she told him that she still harbors resentment toward me. And she mentioned to my brother that maybe he could "mediate" for us.
He told me last night that "you said you wished exW happiness; the defining moment, I believe will be how you convey this to her. I feel that when this is done YOU will be able to Completely put THIS chapter behind you."
He thinks things will be better between she and I when she knows that I will not pursue anymore and she'll feel more comfortable communicating with me about our kids. He also thinks it'll help for her to know that my only concern anymore with communicating with her is about our kids.
I only want to say that your W will trust that you are no longer pursuing her, WHEN and ONLY WHEN she chooses to believe that.
No words are going to convince her of that. While I accept what your brother says about conveying that message to your X, I'll just expand on that by saying / repeating... It will be your continued actions of NOT pursuing your W that will eventually lead to her believing it...
So he is right, I just don't think words will make that happen... time and consistent action will... eventually...
Well, do you honestly think you can stop pursuing her? Yep. Stop asking for and looking for forgiveness? Yep. Mentioning it to my brother in the text was said in a way that was for her benefit. Stop rehashing the past and mention all the things you've done wrong and how she hurt you wen she left? Yep. But I didn't do that in the text that I sent him.
Can you honestly do that? Yep. Can you just keep your conversations limit to strictly co-parenting? Yep.
Because from that text to your brother...... I don't know.
I don't know how you get to that from what I wrote to him. Explaining some things to him and wishing her well, and meaning it, spoke to him evidently. He thought it was important to convey to her.
I am all about co-parenting, but if you can not let these things go and mention them even passive aggressively when you are speaking of your children, your chances of co-parenting may not work. The pursuit is OVER. He thought it might help if she KNEW that. She will push away again and get angry all over again. Hopefully that behavior will be over if she knows the pursuit is over. And also if she knows that I wish her well. That will only make things worse for the kids. He got involved to make things better for the kids...that's why he talked to her at all.
You need to make a commitment if you are going to communicate with your wife regarding your children, you leave everything else out.
I am committed to letting go and moving on with my life without her; I still want my children to be OK. I do wish her well. I have forgiven her for the hurt that she caused me. That has been a blessing to me so far...being able to honestly do that.
Antlers:
I agree wholeheartedly with K D however, I did write a letter to my ex several years after he left. Years that I had felt as you - angry, hurt, bitter. I could not imagine forgiving him as he not only showed no remorse but also continued to inflict pain on us. It only kept me stuck in one place - and not a good place.
One day I saw a sign up outside my church
"HE WHO ANGERS YOU, CONTROLS YOU"
That hit home with me. He never even knew how angry I was day after day.
After another of our bouts of him not paying for D's education, dance and costumes, grad stuff etc - I finally wrote him a letter.
I talked about how I was letting it go. That although I could not agree with what he had done or the way he was treating us - I was stepping out of the drama. And he could carry on till the cows came home but I was not going to play anymore. Ashley was his daughter - but if he chose not to help pay for her - that was his choice. The courts would sort it out in time. But she would not go without. Because I would take care of her in the best way I knew. She would not lose out because of the choices he made.
I told him I did not want to converse with him anymore. I had sole custody - he had some visitation. There was nothing to talk about anymore.
And the drama ended.
It was a long time later that I showed up at Emergency with my son and was told he was not likely to live the rest of the day. Then and only then did I contact him and at that point - I only cared about doing the right thing - one parent to another. His presence was very minor to me as Ryan was the only one on my mind.
From then on - we have communicated by text regarding Ryan. (as I'm sure you know - he has not only survived, but thrived since that horrible day).
My point is - if a letter will make a difference - do it. If you are just telling her that you forgive her and are letting go. I would save my breath. Because actions DO speak louder than words. And time heals all wounds. Never thought it could. But it does.
Barb
I only want to say that your W will trust that you are no longer pursuing her, WHEN and ONLY WHEN she chooses to believe that.
No words are going to convince her of that. While I accept what your brother says about conveying that message to your X, I'll just expand on that by saying / repeating... It will be your continued actions of NOT pursuing your W that will eventually lead to her believing it...
So he is right, I just don't think words will make that happen... time and consistent action will... eventually...
I don't disagree with anything you've said. Fact is...I agree with everything you've said here. When he talked with her about the problems our kids are having, she told him that she harbored much resentment toward me...making communication between us about the kids hard. He felt this might alleviate some of this difficulty...however small...start things down a more healthy road, so to speak. She would benefit by knowing that I did not intend to pursue anymore, and possibly by knowing that I wished her well, and possibly by knowing that I intend to move forward in my life without her, and lastly by knowing that my ONLY concern now is for the well-being of our kids. I also think he believes that by me truly wishing her well (and meaning it), that I'll benefit from that too. And the kids will benefit too, for once, from their parents finally co-parenting and not using them as tools to hurt the other.
...with the understanding that actions speak louder than words.
Ant...
I may be wrong here, but I think that letting go is tied very much so to your "ideals" of co-parenting...
I thought that co-parenting was a given..always. Right up until there was a situation with my Daughter, and saw that what my consequences were, played no part in what she lived with with her Mother.
A friend suggested that I google "parallel parenting" and read up on that.
What I realized was, that in my trying to "co-parent" that my ex felt that as some form of me trying to control her actions. And that she probably felt like I was trying to run her life , even away from me. At least that is probably how SHE felt.
Truth is, she was probably right. I still expected things to be as they were, and they weren't. I was working toward an old common goal , and she was working toward being a single parent.
When I started working toward being a single parent, was after I read about parallel parenting.
That is when I dropped the last rope tying our daily interactions together.
It was very freeing for me
Just a thought....
I had felt as you - angry, hurt, bitter. I'm not angry anymore. Hurt, yes. But I'll live. And I intend to live well. Not really bitter anymore either. I could not imagine forgiving him as he not only showed no remorse but also continued to inflict pain on us. I couldn't have imagined forgiving her either only a short time ago...but I did. And it's been very helpful to me. And she's never shown any remorse either. She still harbors resentment, and I still think she'd hurt me in any way she could to this day.
"HE WHO ANGERS YOU, CONTROLS YOU" I agree. I'm no longer angry. I'm sad more than anything else. My point is - if a letter will make a difference - do it. He seems to think it will help...if it does...great. If you are just telling her that you forgive her and are letting go. I'm not telling her that I forgive her...that's for me. Telling her that I'm letting go...that's for us both. Again, with the understanding that actions speak louder than words. It might help with the kids. Because actions DO speak louder than words. Agree wholeheartedly. And time heals all wounds. I think that I must take positive actions during that passage of time...and not just depend on the passage of time alone, in order to heal.
to answer your question on how I got that from the text to your brother......
anything you have posted on here in regards to communication to your wife and kids, starts off with a rehashing of the past and how you want forgiveness and the damage that has done before you got to the point of what you were trying to communicate. And your text to your brother kind of seemed like that.
I think there needs to just be a simple "yes, I scan coparent without pursuing.
If you are in a place where you can keep the words to a minimum, and work off of action, then go for it. But I do think you have sent enough lengthly texts and emails in the last few months, and now is the time to put them away and use soley actions.
That's all I meant.
I feel like I'm in a better place now than I've been in a long, long time. I am sad. Very. But I'm moving on without her. I'm resolved to that. And I've forgiven her for the pain that she caused me. I've truly done that. That was huge. And it has helped me in indescribeable ways. And not only that...I truly wish her love, health, and happiness. I think that's pretty huge too. Now...I want my kids to stop being so torn. I can co-parent without pursuing. My actions from here on out will prove that to be true.
Thanks. I have no desire to control anything. My concerns are for my kids. Co-parenting to me is the same as parallel parenting is to you. I only want what's best for them. All along, my exW has refused to 'co-parent' our kids with me because she hated me and felt so much anger and resentment towards me. Hopefully that will now change.
Antlers,
I think what Gabby's saying is, you are too wordy and imo, this letter is NOT needed. I got the same sense from your post that she did. A lot of the "I only want what's best for them" and "we need to co-parent"
sounds close to implicitly suggesting that SHE does not want what's best for them
(hence the comment "they have not been co-parented for some time now" as if SHE isn't doing her job. Where were you? And the OM is not relevant, at all....and it's telling you'd mention him.)
For all the talk of it, I am Not sure you have let go. I think it's at least partly a tactic to see if letting her go, gets her back. Ironic but that's how it's hitting me atm.
Work on letting go of what YOUR part in this was, learning from it and changing.
How are YOU a different man today than before?? Have you replaced your anger only with morose sorrow?
that's Not the only option.
At some point you must let go of the sadness...and create a new, fulfilling life for yourself.
MAYBE
you should Stop all the "co-parenting" talk, and just father your kids.
Otherwise it sounds like an excuse for contact, and I think what Mach said alludes to that.
You really are a smart man. But you've been stuck and sad too long. So all the talk about how "new" this is to you rings a LITTLE hollow.
Get with the program and move forward. You've been in neutral or reverse for too long. You can do this.
((( )))
I think what Gabby's saying is, you are too wordy and imo, this letter is NOT needed. It certainly wasn't my idea. I was talking to my brother the other night and I basically told him about hanging on for so long and then finally, after 3 long years, committing to letting go. I also told him how good it made me feel to forgive her...to be able to do that. I then explained that I truly wanted my kids to be OK and that they neede both of us, even though we were divorced. And I told him I was through pursuing her, and not only was I committed to moving on without her, but that I actually wanted her to be happy, healthy, and have love in her life. Since he'd talked with her about the problems our kids were having, and she made it clear to him that she still harbored resentment toward me...he thought that it's help the situation out if she knew how I now felt...what I'd explained to him. He suggested that information be conveyed to her. She also suggested that my brother mediate for us. I got the same sense from your post that she did. A lot of the "I only want what's best for them" and "we need to co-parent"
sounds close to implicitly suggesting that SHE does not want what's best for them
(hence the comment "they have not been co-parented for some time now" as if SHE isn't doing her job. Where were you? And the OM is not relevant, at all....and it's telling you'd mention him.) I mentioned the OM to my brother because she had told my brother that we'd been communicating good for a good while and then it stopped, and she gave him a false reason for it stopping. She didn't mention the OM as being the reason. She admitted to him that our kids were affected because of the way things had been and because of the divorce. I've been present, as had she...but because there was so much animosity...the kids continued to struggle.
For all the talk of it, I am Not sure you have let go. I have, but it doesn't happen immediately. I think it's a process. I am in that process. The decision to do it was certain. I am letting go. I think it's at least partly a tactic to see if letting her go, gets her back. Ironic but that's how it's hitting me atm. Again, it wasn't my idea at all to communicate anything to her. I'm not letting go and moving on in order to do anything, except to be try and be happy and enjoy life after many years of unhappiness. I realize that I must do this. I have no other motivation. Honest.
Work on letting go of what YOUR part in this was, learning from it and changing.
I have been, and still am, doing that. I have already truly forgiven myself for my wrongdoings...I still have a conscience though and I still feel bad about it. I have learned from it. Much. I will do better if I ever get another chance at a committed relationship. I have made many changes. My brother, who I've been estranged from for over a decade until the last couple of months, knew what a prick I was. And he's been 'impressed' (for lack of a better word) with the man he knows now.
How are YOU a different man today than before?? Have you replaced your anger only with morose sorrow? I am able to have compassion...for myself and others. I didn't before. Anger does not control me anymore. It once did. I realize that love from others shouldn't be taken for granted. It should be nourished, daily, constantly...and seen for the blessing it truly is. I'm more patient, kind, understanding. And I want to do better. My anger has been replaced with compassion more than anything else. I am sad at the losses that I've experienced.
that's Not the only option. Thank God. I realize that.
At some point you must let go of the sadness...and create a new, fulfilling life for yourself. I know that. I'm working on it. I really am. And for the first time in years...I have hope that I can be happy and fulfilled in the future.
MAYBE
you should Stop all the "co-parenting" talk, and just father your kids. Our kids are messed up because of all of this bad that's happened. Something different has to be done. I've discussed the problems my kids are having on this board.
Otherwise it sounds like an excuse for contact, and I think what Mach said alludes to that. Again, contact was not my idea. He (my brother) thought what I had told him would help if she also knew that. That's all. He has seen firsthand how screwed up my kids are.
You really are a smart man. But you've been stuck and sad too long. So all the talk about how "new" this is to you rings a LITTLE hollow. Thanks. There are those who would disagree with you. Agreed, I have been stuck and sad for too long. I am trying the best I can to do something about that. I do believe that I've made progress too. It is 'new' for me to be letting go, and moving forward! I'm a novice at it. But the best way to learn how to do something is to do it. And that's what I'm outting forth effort to do.
You can do this. I am confident that I can too! Thanks.
((( )))
1. Work on letting go of what YOUR part in this was, learning from it and changing.
2. At some point you must let go of the sadness...and create a new, fulfilling life for yourself.
3. Get with the program and move forward. You've been in neutral or reverse for too long. You can do this.
1. I am working on it. My brother and her have been doing some communication regarding the kids, in particular my son (because he's so volatile), and she's mentioned her resentment toward me in every communication they've had so far. Still! I'm doing all I can to let go of my part in this. I still need help and don't know what else to do but continue on...and continue to pray for help. I have learned from it, tons actually, and continue to do so. I've changed a lot, for the better. Everyone sees it, but there are some who use my past against me and hold it over my head whenever it's beneficial to them to do so.
2. I've let go of a lot of it. I know I still have work to do. I'm determined to do it. But it seems like those curve balls and punches to the stomach continue to come. And my past is used against me at every opportunity. It makes it hard to let go of it under those circumstances...it's like (the opinion is) I should have to pay for my sins for the rest of my life, and I deserve no happiness because of my actions in the past. I'm constantly reminded of it. I talked to the realtors last night and am going to get my house ready to sell. I'm stoked about it. Now's a good time for me to take a step up snd get a nicer home. I no longer want to be in this house (it's the one that WE lived in....she even picked it out). I think this change will be good for me.
3. I have been in neutral, or sometimes reverse, for a long damn time. It seems there are those who want to keep me there, and I must be resolute and stronger mentally to overcome that. I want to be able to completely let go of everything I have no control over, such as opinions and resentments and actions of others, and exercise the 'only' control that I do have...my reactions. I have COMPLETE control over those...and I want to react/respond well. I CAN do this...God willing. Just gotta respond well to the 'bad' that is still there.
I need some advice.
My 14 year old son......he got mad at me and went to his Mom's about a week and a half ago. If he didn't get his way, he'd say "I'll just go to mom's", or if I told him 'no' he'd say "I'll just go to mom's", or if he was questioned or grounded he'd say "I'll just go to mom's"...so he did. He's only done this one other time, when he got grounded. And she let him do immediately the very thing that I grounded him from. It prevents him from learning that there are consequences to his behavior. It only teaches him to be manipulative.
He has lived with me exclusively for 2 and 1/2 years. He has been torn up bad, emotionally, since the separation. My life has revolved around him since then. I've been loving and compassionate towards him throughout. He's struggled, and still is. His counselor tells me she's never dealt with a child this hard. He vents his anger toward me, at the drop of a hat, over the smallest thing.
I've had to walk on eggshells myself with him. He's capable of incredible meanness toward me. It's heartbreaking. We had a great Christmas. But afterwards, he started drawing his mother like a gun. Using her as a weapon against me. I would just respond with "OK son".
Anyway, he's been there for nearly 2 weeks. I haven't heard from him. Yesterday I sent him a text that said simply "thinking about you. Love you." That's been the extent of communication between us. Last time he left, I asked him to come home after he'd been gone for 3 days. He saw it as a weakness and told others that I begged him to come home. He made some derogatory comments before he left this time about me begging him to come home. I haven't and don't intend to.
I'd like him to come home. But only if he treats me with the same love and respect that I show him.
This has been very disheartening, in the midst of the things I've been doing, and putting forth so much efforts to create moments of love with him.
And I'm also concerned that she'll take advantage of the situation legally.
I'd appreciate any feedback.
Antlers:
This one is really hard. I totally get it. I think you have to give him some space. He really needs to be able to choose. I feel for him, truly. It is difficult enough growing up these days without having your Mom walk out, your parents fighting and your sisters living elsewhere. No doubt he is torn.
My daughter was 12 when her dad walked. My L and C both told me she was old enough to choose who to live with. She would never have gone with her dad - she has never accepted his OW and won't have her in her life - so that was not the problem. The problem was that she was devastated - just as your son is - and took out all her frustration on me. It was extremely difficult to live with her and it never really got easier.
Daughter had to get her own apt last Spring when I moved away. Our R has never been better as we are now apart. But it took years of strain, understanding, frustration and LOVE.
Your son probably does not know how to handle the situation any differently. Give him some time. I'm sure you can see how that is working with your daughters. Time and space and unconditional love has helped create a new R with them.
Don't worry about the courts. It is what is best for your son that counts. If you fought to have him stay with you against his will - how would that end up in 5 years? And trust me - those 5 years will go by fast.
The part that worries me here is that wife will side with him against you. I think you really need to try to communicate to her from a co-parenting standpoint. And I DO understand how hard that is because my ex was unreasonable and irrational about EVERYTHING to do with our daughter after he left. Luckily - I had sole custody - but still - she is OUR daughter.
So - my best advice is to NOT guilt him into coming home just yet or ask for some time with him. He obviously needs some space for a bit. Just letting him know you're there and the door is open is enough in my opinion.
Barb
My 14 year old son......he got mad at me and went to his Mom's about a week and a half ago. If he didn't get his way, he'd say "I'll just go to mom's", or if I told him 'no' he'd say "I'll just go to mom's", or if he was questioned or grounded he'd say "I'll just go to mom's"...so he did. He's only done this one other time, when he got grounded. And she let him do immediately the very thing that I grounded him from. It prevents him from learning that there are consequences to his behavior. It only teaches him to be manipulative.
Part of this is his age, part of it is because that is what he has seen from his Mother.
I try to address the things that aren't "learned" behavior. Those are the things that are disrespectful towards you or any other person that shows authority.
The things that are normal teenager behavior? well they are normal for a reason.
That is a tough spot buddy. I don't envy you at all. Although I do understand what you are dealing with.
I would stay consistent , and whenever he chooses to come back, hold him to your rules still. Things aren't always going to be rosey there. And he will want to come back at some point. When he does, then I would have a talk with him about that. That in the future, running from one parent to the other if he gets upset, will not be allowed. And he will have the very real choice he has to make.
Explain about the manipulation, and that you will not deal with his disrespect in your home.
That is part of the parallel parenting thing I was talking about the other day. That we expect the same standards to be held in both homes for our kids. And that most of the time, in reality, that there ends up being two sets of standards. One for each home.
We fully expect that the best interest of the kids will be held in each home. The difference is, that what our version of whats best is, and our whacked out spouse's version of whats best is, usually ends up being at the opposite end of the spectrum from each other.
That is also the part that angers us so much. That we fully expect the other parent to enforce our rules , the same as we try to enforce theirs.
A couple years ago, I grounded my daughter from her cell phone for a week. It was on a Thursday night, and she was going back with her Mother for the next 7 days. She THOUGHT that she was free and clear , because the next week, she was going to be with her Mom.....
Imagine her surprise, when I picked her up the following Friday afternoon, and my first words were. " Hi baby, I love you, and I need your phone, this is day one "
That set the tone for parallel parenting for us....
Don't walk on eggshells with him. He will sense that in you. And try to take advantage of that. Being a teenager, that is his job.
You are the parent....nuff said
He vents his anger toward me, at the drop of a hat, over the smallest thing.
I've had to walk on eggshells myself with him. He's capable of incredible meanness toward me. It's heartbreaking. We had a great Christmas. But afterwards, he started drawing his mother like a gun.
THIS.....is the hardest thing to understand. I struggled with this one too.
From what I have been through...
You are the "safe" parent. You are the one that he knows will be there for him. You always have, and he knows you always will be. He may feel safe venting that anger toward you, because he knows-without a shadow of a doubt- that you will be there. No matter how much anger he shows you.
What he doesn't know, is that his Mother will always be there. And he may fear that if he shows the anger he has toward her to her, that she will walk away from him, the same way she did you.
He doesn't feel "safe" in that relationship, and needs to protect that, by acting out in a way that will draw him closer to her. That is the bond that they form, or try to form.
She is more of a friend than a Mother right now. In time, he will see this too.
I had to go through this part very slow and consistently with my daughter. She needed to learn what was true on her own. She needed to see what was real, and what wasn't, on her own.
I didn't force anything on her except that I loved her , and I was there for her.
The only thing I would suggest is, that you hold him to whatever agreement that you have regarding custody. That he WILL spend time with you. I don't know if that is possible for you.
I thought many times about sending my Daughter to my ex, and letting her go. I felt that if I let her do that, that my ex won. And I was not willing to let her become the kind of person that would just walk away from her issues. And it has been a rough road. I held my daughter to a higher standard in my home, regardless of what standard that she had with my ex. She was free to express herself, but only if she could contain that to being respectful.
She had chores and responsibilities, she earns an allowance ONLY if she adheres to her chore schedule. I always thought that kids tend to gravitate towards discipline and rules, no matter what they think they want.
What we have now, is a really good relationship. In time, she did see things for her own, and she knows the difference between my relationship with her, and her relationship with her Mother.
When she needs guidance, she always seems to come to me first now. She still has things that she will only have with her Mother, and I accept that, hell, I WANT that for her.
I think the hard times, are what make the good times even better though...
I hope this helps you some. I know it's hard stuff ..
Antlers:
This one is really hard. I totally get it. I think you have to give him some space. He really needs to be able to choose. I feel for him, truly. It is difficult enough growing up these days without having your Mom walk out, your parents fighting and your sisters living elsewhere. No doubt he is torn. I don't disagree with anything you've said here. He has been an emotional wreck since his mom walked out. I know that he's torn. But he's so fickle. I didn't contact him for 13 days, and I didn't hear from him either. Then that night I sent him a short text that said simply "Thinkin' about ya'. Love you". I still haven't heard anything from him. He was really pissed when he left.
My daughter was 12 when her dad walked. My L and C both told me she was old enough to choose who to live with. She would never have gone with her dad - she has never accepted his OW and won't have her in her life - so that was not the problem. The problem was that she was devastated - just as your son is - and took out all her frustration on me. It was extremely difficult to live with her and it never really got easier. My son is and has been devestated too. I have been on the receiving end of tremendous amounts of anger and meanness from him, and he's been very difficult to live with.
Daughter had to get her own apt last Spring when I moved away. Our R has never been better as we are now apart. But it took years of strain, understanding, frustration and LOVE. His mother communicated with my brother 2 nights ago via text and she told him that my son "is doing real good over there and she hasn't had any problems with him at all, and that he's gone through so much emotionally with the crap he's had to hear and still hears, and that he needs time to be in a happy, positive, peaceful, truthful environment". That was a direct attack on me and the environment that he's in when he's with me. Her response was SO disingenuous. Incendentally, since he's been over there, I've received 2 very distressing letters from 2 different teachers at his school telling me that his behavior and schoolwork has deteriorated markedly and they really don't know what else to do with him at this point. Ironically on Jan. 5th when he was still at my house I got a very complementary letter from another one of his teachers telling me how good he was doing and how good his attitude was.
Your son probably does not know how to handle the situation any differently. Give him some time. I'm sure you can see how that is working with your daughters. Time and space and unconditional love has helped create a new R with them. He's lived with me exclusively for over 2 years. He knows how I am, and he knows how I treat him. He's lied to his mother and told her that I was mean to him, because she mentioned to my brother that my son told her that I was mean to him. All I've done is tell him 'no' when it was appropriate, I sometimes don't let him get his way, I sometimes question him when he's done something wrong, and I've grounded him a couple of times over those 2 years when it was warranted. That's been the extent of my being mean. I'm giving him time. I'll reach out again in about a week and just let him know that I'm thinking about him and love him via a short text. My oldest daughter still will not even communicate with me. My youngest daughter and I have been spending a good deal of time together. She's been contacting me often.
Don't worry about the courts. It is what is best for your son that counts. If you fought to have him stay with you against his will - how would that end up in 5 years? And trust me - those 5 years will go by fast. Unfortunately I have to worry about it when dealing with her. It's basically a situation where he got mad at me and went to his mom's. And instead of her seeing it for what it is, she'll take advantage of the situation and try to get custody of him by taking me back to court, and to try and get even more money from me on a monthly basis. I don't mind him staying over there for a while...but I certainly don't want another custody battle in court. She hired a GAL (who was also a lawyer) during the divorce (and I had to pay for the GAL also) to try to get custody of the kids. This GAL recommended, after her investigation, that custody of my son go to me. All of those parameters upon which the GAL based her recommendations are still the same! Certainly the court wouldn't change custody based upon the whims of an adolescent boy? Certainly they wouldn't change custody because he got mad at his dad because he didn't get his way so he went to stay at his mom's?
The part that worries me here is that wife will side with him against you. I think you really need to try to communicate to her from a co-parenting standpoint. And I DO understand how hard that is because my ex was unreasonable and irrational about EVERYTHING to do with our daughter after he left. Luckily - I had sole custody - but still - she is OUR daughter. She will always side with him against me! That's because it's not about him with her...it's about her being able to hurt me and get more money out of me! I've begged her over the years to work together for the benefit of these kids, and she's refused. I'm between a rock and a hard place here.
So - my best advice is to NOT guilt him into coming home just yet or ask for some time with him. He obviously needs some space for a bit. Just letting him know you're there and the door is open is enough in my opinion. I don't intend to guilt him at all. I haven't and I won't. I don't mind giving him space or time, I really don't. I'm concerned though that she'll take advantage of the situation like I mentioned. I intend to let him know that I'm there and the door is open...but sparingly. I don't want to overdo it.
Barb
Thank you for responding.
I know he's got a lot of other stuff going on too with school, his peers, puberty, etc. But this separation and divorce has done a number on him. He is very disrespectful toward me. I just hope that he chooses 'to' come back! I know things won't always be rosey, even though his mother says they are 'perfect' when he's with her. How can you enforce "running from one parent to another if he gets upset will not be allowed"? I can discourage it, but I don't see how it can be enforced? I don't like walking on eggshells, it's an awful way to live. What you've said about being the 'safe' parent is something I've heard before. I don't know if that's the case with him but it's certainly possible. Even though I'm his primary custodian, I can't make him stay. I really anxious about the situation, because I've dealt with her for several years now since she left, and I'm concerned she's gonna have me back in court. I do not want that. I do appreciate your response, and it does help.
Sorry you are going through this Antlers. A couple of months ago in our divorce care group we had a speaker who spoke about his parents D. He is an adult now.He also lived with his dad and said that every time his dad set limits he would run to his mom. He said he did that because his mom let him do whatever including smoking weed. He said that later on he recented his mother for this. So hang in there and continue being a good role model and dad
Sorry you are going through this Antlers. A couple of months ago in our divorce care group we had a speaker who spoke about his parents D. He is an adult now.He also lived with his dad and said that every time his dad set limits he would run to his mom. He said he did that because his mom let him do whatever including smoking weed. He said that later on he recented his mother for this. So hang in there and continue being a good role model and dad
It [censored]. I would like it for her to co-parent these kids with me. They love and need both of us. But whenever he's over there, she feels like she has the upper hand, and she operates from that position. It's less about my son and more about hurting me and getting more money from me.
If anybody is familiar with my thread and my situation and is willing, I'd sure appreciate a sample communication to her requesting that we co-parent these kids because they love us both, and they need us both.
If anybody is familiar with my thread and my situation and is willing, I'd sure appreciate a sample communication to her requesting that we co-parent these kids because they love us both, and they need us both.
Hey Antlers - I don't think it is going to be as easy as a single communication that get you two to discuss this matter in a constructive way. It is probably going to take the form of several positive interactions between you and your W before she will be open to hearing and changing.
A friend who is D had a very strained R with his ex. Then one day he stopped by to pick up his son and when his ex answered the door, he said hello and simply shook her hand. That one simple gesture of respect opened up other doors for him and his ex to have conversations about what they wanted for their son and how they would achieve that together.
Just something to consider.
If anybody is familiar with my thread and my situation and is willing, I'd sure appreciate a sample communication to her requesting that we co-parent these kids because they love us both, and they need us both.
Hey Antlers - I don't think it is going to be as easy as a single communication that get you two to discuss this matter in a constructive way. It is probably going to take the form of several positive interactions between you and your W before she will be open to hearing and changing.
A friend who is D had a very strained R with his ex. Then one day he stopped by to pick up his son and when his ex answered the door, he said hello and simply shook her hand. That one simple gesture of respect opened up other doors for him and his ex to have conversations about what they wanted for their son and how they would achieve that together.
Just something to consider.
Agreed. Just something to get things started though would be nice.
Ok, how about something like sending an email seeking her advice on some parenting issue you are dealing with. Or if you see her struggling with some parental matter, acknowledging that you see she is struggling and extending an offer of help.
I think you need to approach from a totally neutral, non-blaming angle in order to avoid any defencive reaction.
Say something like, "Ex, I'm having trouble handling this "fill in the blank" situation and wonder if you have any ideas on how I can solve this problem". Or, "I noticed that X happened the other day and was wondering what you were thinking about how we could solve this to our mutual benefit".
Just some little ice breakers to get the ball rolling that can eventually lead to a larger conversation about co-parenting.
Does this help?
or make sure you send HER copies of the good news from the school AND the bad news...
seek her input and assume the best of her motives...that would be a real 180 for you.
You honestly seem to think she's solely motivated by a desire to hurt you.
I don't buy that. And It sure fuels your negative views of things and helps no one...especially you.
Finally, almost all of this is beyond your control. Remember to let that go.
Remember how you said you were letting go?
so don't get sucked into the parent contest anymore, and don't make this all about YOU and how you will be hurt by it financially or otherwise.
You both love the kids and want what's best for them. Stop assuming, out loud, that she does not.
That's competitive of you, not her. Or it's mutual. LET IT GO...
Back off and focus on the school issues, involving her with them as well.
Give her something to live UP TO, rather than assuming the worst of her, which just fuels more negativity on both sides.
I appreciate the response. Those are good ideas, and good things to say. Thank you. I don't want her to be defensive. I really just want to co-parent our kiddos, for once, since all of this crap began.
or make sure you send HER copies of the good news from the school AND the bad news... Haven't done that in the past, nor has she with our daughter. I can start though.
seek her input and assume the best of her motives...that would be a real 180 for you. 2thepoint gave me some good things to start with regarding seeking her input. Assuming the best of her motives...that's gonna be difficult...with good reason. I'm willing to try.
You honestly seem to think she's solely motivated by a desire to hurt you.
I don't buy that. And It sure fuels your negative views of things and helps no one...especially you. Yes, I honestly think she's very interested and motivated by a desire to hurt me. Well, I've lived it and been on the receiving end of it for over 3 years now. I wish it weren't so. Yep, it causes me to have a negative view of certain things. I think it's natural to keep your guard up when it's warranted. Getting my ass kicked up between my ears by her doesn't help me either!
Finally, almost all of this is beyond your control. Remember to let that go. Absolutely. I'm pretty powerless over most all of this stuff. I will remember that. I'm trying to not be afraid of what she might do...to let that fear go. And I hope the thing that worries me doesn't come to pass.
Remember how you said you were letting go? Yes. I feel like I'm doing pretty darn good too, before this newest batch of crap. I'm still letting go of her and the past.
so don't get sucked into the parent contest anymore, and don't make this all about YOU and how you will be hurt by it financially or otherwise. It's about my son, but she can sure cause me some problems if she tries to take him away from me. I have to be aware of that. And I would be hurt by it in a big way. I do not want to do battle with her anymore!
You both love the kids and want what's best for them. Stop assuming, out loud, that she does not. I base my statements on 3 years worth of previous experience. I want it to be that we both love them, and they love and need us both. And we work together to help them and put their needs first. That's what I want.
That's competitive of you, not her. Or it's mutual. LET IT GO... I understand that letting go of the fear and the situation is appropriate. I may be getting worked up over nothing. I really don't mind if he spends time there.
Back off and focus on the school issues, involving her with them as well. Back off is exactly what I've done since he went over there.
Give her something to live UP TO, rather than assuming the worst of her, which just fuels more negativity on both sides.
or make sure you send HER copies of the good news from the school AND the bad news...
Haven't done that in the past, nor has she with our daughter. I can start though.
(I'll insert "25" or post mine in bold/underline so it's semi clear)...
25: YES you can start involving her as a parent in the kids's schoolwork. Our school district lets you go online to check the homework assignments and grades your kids have. Most now do so and every teacher is available by email or phone.
You don't even have to ask your son or daughters how they're doing in school; you can verify for yourself how they are doing and what's due or coming up...seek her input and
assume the best of her motives...that would be a real 180 for you.
2thepoint gave me some good things to start with regarding seeking her input. Assuming the best of her motives...that's gonna be difficult...with good reason. I'm willing to try. 25: You say there are "good reasons for assuming the worst". Hmmm
I'm betting they are based on THE PAST and your perception of it...(leaving aside your own role in a lot of this.)
Yet you just posted about not wanting to be "punished forever for your past sins"...you claim to have changed but complain that too few believe you or are still living in the past, staying hurt...
but look at your pattern right here...doing that exact thing to your w.
You never thought to show her the information from the school? If the roles were reversed in this, how would you feel about her excluding you from relevant school information AND having custody of the child?
So I think you are applying a double standard-
you want to move forward in your life and have others let go of YOUR past...do the same for her.
Be here now, today. And go from this day forward. No matter what else she did in the past--let it go. Start fresh.
Your negative assumptions & projections of her intent do not help you. Please see this.
They hurt you, or at best just make you feel worse and IN THE PAST--when you felt bad about your life, or yourself, you took it out on them...
(this is all stuff you've said in your posts)...
Some say "hope for the best but prepare for the worst"...
well it's fine to prepare for the worst, but stop assuming it, fearing it, expecting it, and borrowing it from tomorrow.
Stop what you know is not helpful...
Our thoughts matter...and you actually CAN control THOSE.
You honestly seem to think she's solely motivated by a desire to hurt you.
I don't buy that. And It sure fuels your negative views of things and helps no one...especially you.
Yes, I honestly think she's very interested and motivated by a desire to hurt me. Well, I've lived it and been on the receiving end of it for over 3 years now. I wish it weren't so.
25: I'm not claiming she isn't angry at you. She is. She thinks you are still the same morose bully you were before. She probably thinks it's unfair you have son...
and as mother I would feel terrible if one of my kids chose to live w/their father instead of me. But I don't believe her motivation is SOLELY to hurt you; that's just a bonus perhaps? 
Point is, again, your attitude isn't helping you.
Yep, it causes me to have a negative view.
25: YOU CAUSE YOUR VIEWS...
Getting my ass kicked up between my ears by her doesn't help me either!
Finally, almost all of this is beyond your control. Remember to let that go. Absolutely. I'm pretty powerless over most all of this stuff. I will remember that. I'm trying to not be afraid of what she might do...to let that fear go. And I hope the thing that worries me doesn't come to pass. Remember how you said you were letting go?
Yes. I feel like I'm doing pretty darn good too, before this newest batch of crap. I'm still letting go of her and the past. It's about my son, but she can sure cause me some problems if she tries to take him away from me. I have to be aware of that.
25: you're more than "aware" of it. You seem paralyzed by it, and you are giving up all your poweer.
And I would be hurt by it in a big way. I do not want to do battle with her anymore! You both love the kids and want what's best for them. Stop assuming, out loud, that she does not.
I base my statements on 3 years worth of previous experience. I want it to be that we both love them, and they love and need us both. And we work together to help them and put their needs first. That's what I want. 25: well maybe you cannot have that. You two can work as parents but not work together anytime soon. Your grievance lists against each other are too long to ever resolve, imo.
Even if you were put into prison cells and told to "work it out", I fear you would be there for years. Hence the request that you let it go.
That's competitive of you, not her. Or it's mutual. LET IT GO...
I understand that letting go of the fear and the situation is appropriate. I may be getting worked up over nothing. I really don't mind if he spends time there. Back off and focus on the school issues, involving her with them as well.
Back off is exactly what I've done since he went over there. Give her something to live UP TO, rather than assuming the worst of her, which just fuels more negativity on both sides.
25: maybe you will and maybe you won't. Why is this so crucial, given that you two parent separately now? I don't see any "ideal" resolution coming from your wish list.
I can't help it Antlers, there's something about this that smacks of you being hurt and wanting to control others again...and I sense it's such a pattern and you say "b/c it's NEW crap" but it is not new. It's a repeat of other chapters from the same book.
Your son played you against each other and you both play into it. You can withdraw. If your son stays there and IF she wants more child support to cover his costs, which is the worst case scenario...
it is not fatal. You'd survive that.
Meanwhile you are making yourself miserable ahead of time....
"I'd sure like to see a positive change in her in her dealings with me regarding the kids."
Try to think of a way to communicate this ^^^^ to your your Ex without it coming across as blaming (even though the blame seems to be clearly justified).
Something like, "Ex, I know we have been at each other in our various interactions and I'd really like to try to find some common ground as it relates to the kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking.... what are your thoughts?" Saying "we" in the opening statement takes a little of the sting out of your comment while at the same time shows you taking some ownership as well which I believe helps to create common ground"
25...We have a system in our school district that allows us to go online and check our kids grades and schoolwork. And all of the teachers are available by e-mail or phone. But sometimes there are other communications and situations related to school regarding my son that are only sent/or made known to me...and the same goes for my daughter and her mother. These are situations where we both could communicate with each other. And we could also seek each others input regarding the kids grades and such. Assuming the best of her motives would certainly be different.
Yes, my assumptions are based on past experience. My perception of it was certainly a reality for me. My role in this has been what it has...I've owned it since day one...I've not denied anything that I've done. I have changed 25. I'm able to have compassion, for others and myself. I didn't before. Anger does not control me anymore. It once did. I now realize that love from others shouldn't be taken for granted. It should be nourished daily, constantly...and seen for the blessing it truly is. I'm more patient, understanding, and kind. And I want to do better. I have no control over whether others believe it or not. I don't deny that I'm still hurt by the past. I have no intentions of punishing her if the situation arises. She 'has' excluded me from relevant school information concerning our daughter that she has custody of. At least as much, if not more, than I have her. No double standard there. She's also excluded me from relevant legal information concerning our daughter that she has custody of (regarding her arrest for shoplifting, court appearances, community service, etc.). I've had to go to the court to find out this information on my own. I do want to move forward in my life, I do want to let go completely of my past, it'd be nice if others would let go of my past...but I have no control over that. I honestly wish they'd let go of it for their own benefit...so it wouldn't cause them any more pain or affect their future happiness. I wish it for their benefit MUCH more than for my own. I see your point though...you want me to let go of 'her' past too. "Be here now, today. And go from this day forward. No matter what else she did in the past--let it go. Start fresh." OK. I do see the utter importance of this. I do realize that my negative assumptions and projections of her intent don't help me. It is hard though, to just push aside how she's dealt with me in the past. I don't take anything out on anybody anymore, except maybe myself. Hurt, feeling bad...I just feel them now...but I don't take it out on others. "It's fine to prepare for the worst, but stop assuming it, fearing it, expecting it, and borrowing it from tomorrow." OK. That makes sense and I do see how important that is. These are the kinds of things that I really benefit from in communicating with you...these statements that you make that really strike a cord. " Stop what you know is not helpful...
Our thoughts matter...and you actually CAN control THOSE." Again, I agree wholeheartedly.
I must let go of things that are beyond my control.
Maybe my wish for co-parenting isn't possible. But I do feel it would be in the best interests of our kids if we could. I think she still holds a lot more resentment toward me than I hold negative feelings regarding her. She's made it clear to my brother. It'd sure be in the kids best interests if we weren't at war with each other anymore. I guess 'let it go' rings true again here. Shouldn't I at least put forth an effort though, when the time is right?
Because parenting separately hasn't been beneficial for the kids.
I have no desire to control anybody but me. I am hurt; I think anybody would be under these circumstances. Him leaving our home and being over there for this long IS new. The problems that it presents ARE new.
Yep, he played us. I see it for what it is. He didn't get his way and ran to the other parent. She sees it differently. She sent a text to my brother saying that he needed time in a "happy, peaceful, truthful, positive environment". Yeah...I wouldn't die from that worst case scenerio...but it truly would be awful for me.
I do realize that I'm making myself miserable thinking about it, and the possibilities of it getting worse...ahead of time. I'll work on that the best I can.
"I'd sure like to see a positive change in her in her dealings with me regarding the kids."
Try to think of a way to communicate this ^^^^ to your your Ex without it coming across as blaming (even though the blame seems to be clearly justified).
Something like, "Ex, I know we have been at each other in our various interactions and I'd really like to try to find some common ground as it relates to the kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking.... what are your thoughts?" Saying "we" in the opening statement takes a little of the sting out of your comment while at the same time shows you taking some ownership as well which I believe helps to create common ground"
That's all good stuff 2thepoint. Thank you. I agree with what you've said here, and I'll use it when the time is right. Hopefully sooner than later.
25...We have a system in our school district that allows us to go online and check our kids grades and schoolwork. And all of the teachers are available by e-mail or phone. But sometimes there are other communications and situations related to school regarding my son that are only sent/or made known to me...and the same goes for my daughter and her mother. These are situations where we both could communicate with each other.
Since you only control YOU, then YOU START sending her the info about your son, regardless of whether she does the same for you re: daughter.
Set the example, with zero expectations that she'll follow suit.
You'll know you did right by him and her. That's got to be enough for you.
And we could also seek each others input regarding the kids grades and such. Assuming the best of her motives would certainly be different.
Yes, my assumptions are based on past experience. My perception of it was certainly a reality for me. My role in this has been what it has...I've owned it since day one...I've not denied anything that I've done. I have changed 25.
You SAY this^^^ often. Most posts...now SHOW it. Drop the past. You can't change it.
In sum, You want HER to change. You want HER to apologize or "own" her stuff and that may never ever happen.
Even if it did happen, internally, you might not ever know. Do you really want to keep hoping and waiting for it and getting hurt when it does not happen? I say all this for YOUR sake.
I'm able to have compassion, for others and myself. I didn't before. Anger does not control me anymore. It once did. I now realize that love from others shouldn't be taken for granted. It should be nourished daily, constantly...and seen for the blessing it truly is. I'm more patient, understanding, and kind. And I want to do better.
Sorry for the bluntness, but just DO better now. I have read the above^^^ from you countless times. Then you come here, and with the exception of the recent posts about your youngest d, you vent, and then vent again, and you stay stuck.
You are hurt now. That will happen again. React in a new way for you. That's what "doing better" means..
I have no control over whether others believe it or not. I don't deny that I'm still hurt by the past. I have no intentions of punishing her if the situation arises.
She 'has' excluded me from relevant school information concerning our daughter that she has custody of. At least as much, if not more, than I have her. No double standard there.
Seriously? Um, you still have the measuring Scorecard...lose it. Just set the example of what YOU think "co-parenting" means and drop it.
You keep talking about how great/nice/beneficial it would be for the kids if you two got along "for their sake"---- but you don't get along.
Whether she won't or can't, or you two are too ingrained in decades of toxic communications, is truly irrelevant atm.
You only control how you react...don't spend energy on the unfairness of it all...
You want UNFAIR? Check out Africa...or Cambodia, or most of the world, to get some perspective...
She's also excluded me from ----- I do want to move forward in my life, I do want to let go completely of my past,
What is stopping you? You say a lot of "want to" or "will try to" but what is stopping you from DOING these things?
it'd be nice if others would let go of my past...but I have no control over that
yes it would be nice. But when you say you are letting go-BUT then often check to see if they are being "fair back" to you or reciprocating, makes it seem that your changes are only for the sake of getting THEM to reciprocate.
A real change in you would happen regardless of what they do or think or say.
You would only focus on how YOU responded differently..in many, many months time, you MAY notice a change in how they behave. Or not.
But you still do your work.
Antlers, Swim to the other shore without looking over your shoulder to see if they're following you. It slows down your progress a lot.
.--- I see your point though...you want me to let go of 'her' past too. "Be here now, today. And go from this day forward. No matter what else she did in the past--let it go. Start fresh." OK. I do see the utter importance of this. I do realize that my negative assumptions and projections of her intent don't help me.
so DO it. Let it go. Don't talk about the process and how you've only been doing it for 3 months out of 3 years, and how it's "new" and "it's hard" and blah blah blah.
Sorry Antlers, but if you KNOW this, then do it.
Is some part of you still thinking it's all got to be even? It won't and it can't be. Accept that, and you'll be a lot farther on the road of letting go.
It is hard though, to just push aside how she's dealt with me in the past. I don't take anything out on anybody anymore, except maybe myself. Hurt, feeling bad...I just feel them now...but I don't take it out on others. "It's fine to prepare for the worst, but stop assuming it, fearing it, expecting it, and borrowing it from tomorrow." OK. That makes sense and I do see how important that is. These are the kinds of things that I really benefit from in communicating with you...these statements that you make that really strike a cord. " Stop what you know is not helpful...
Our thoughts matter...and you actually CAN control THOSE." Again, I agree wholeheartedly.
I must let go of things that are beyond my control.
Maybe my wish for co-parenting isn't possible. But I do feel it would be in the best interests of our kids if we could.
Yes we know you think it's best for the kids. It's just not likely to happen soon, if at all. The ONLY thing YOU can do is model it, or go to court to try and force it.
Which response is the new you going to choose?
I think she still holds a lot more resentment toward me than I hold negative feelings regarding her.
OMG Antlers...you are negatively projecting/mind reading AND measuring-again...geez....NOT important now anyhow. And it's Totally counter productive for your growth...and you are NOT letting go, still....
do you see how I see this?
She's made it clear to my brother. It'd sure be in the kids best interests if we weren't at war with each other anymore.
Yes it would be. It'd also be "nice" or "best for the kids" if you never divorced - or if you never took out your self esteem problems and anger issues on them. You want them to let go of that b/c YOU have changed...but you keep on wanting and expecting the same from them. You may not get it. Ever.
That cannot prevent your own happiness. If it does, then you've missed a big part of this solution based approach to marriage and life.
I guess 'let it go' rings true again here. Shouldn't I at least put forth an effort though, when the time is right?
To MODEL good behavior? Yes. Start today. To expect HER to comply/reciprocate with your expectations? NO. Maybe never.
YOU don't get to MAKE HER do something...unless you go to court, and maybe "win", which you SAY you don't want to do...and which I really believe would backfire on you, again. To them, it will look like control issues of yours or you being punitive.
Because parenting separately hasn't been beneficial for the kids.
Not the way you two do it. Your approach has been tit for tat with personal attacks and or open wounds bleeding onto the kids. YOU CAN stop your part in that.
I have no desire to control anybody but me.
check yourself...I mean, I hope that's true...but check yourself for that.
I am hurt; I think anybody would be under these circumstances. Him leaving our home and being over there for this long IS new.
and that hurts. I get that. But as I recall, It's not the first time he's gone over there. So how is that new?
The problems that it presents ARE new.
you mean financially or what?
Yep, he played us. I see it for what it is. He didn't get his way and ran to the other parent. She sees it differently. She sent a text to my brother saying that he needed time in a "happy, peaceful, truthful, positive environment".
You see that as an insult and maybe it is. So? Plus, SHE may really believe, based on the past, that she's giving an accurate rendition of how it was at your place.
It doesn't matter. If you know the truth, that HAS to be enough for you-- or you'll always be going in circles trying to get people to see it your way.
Yeah...I wouldn't die from that worst case scenerio...but it truly would be awful for me.
does it help to think about what might be awful to you in the future? Of course not. The only "remedy", such as it is, is GAL. So How are your GAL going? I'd like to hear about those.
I do realize that I'm making myself miserable thinking about it, and the possibilities of it getting worse...ahead of time. I'll work on that the best I can.
Antler, just let it go. Put the STOP SIGN in your mind every time you wander over to the "stinkin' thinkin'" land...
no more "work on as best I can"...as the Nike commercial says, JUST DO IT....
(((( ))))
Antlers - this was embedded within your post.... "be here now, today"
Think about what that means and how you might apply that in your life.
Be - all of you... Be
Here - right here in the present, not some place else... Here
Now - not tomorrow, not yesterday... Now
I know that I only control me. I don't wanna control anyone else. OK, I'll set the example by starting to send her any info. about our son, regardless of whether she sends me info. about our daughter. And I'll have zero expectations that she'll follow suit. Knowing that I did right by them both will have to be enough.
I don't want to hope and wait for her to acknowledge anything, and then get hurt when it doesn't happen. Not anymore. I know you're saying what you do for my benefit. I need to hear it.
I know that actions speak louder than words. I need to just STFU and 'just DO it'. I do vent here, but I don't wanna stay stuck. Yeah, I'm hurt. I'm sad that my son
left. What is a 'new way' to to react to hurt? I know that reacting in a new way will be doing better.....just don't know what a new way is?
OK. I'll start setting the example of what I think co-parenting means...and have zero expectations. I just think it'd be nice for everyone involved if we didn't do battle anymore. I see very bad stuff everyday in my job...that provides enough perspective if I look for it.
There is really nothing stopping me other than me.....I have no excuses.....even though it's a hard b!tch to do!
Nah...my changes are truly because they needed to be made, period. That's been my motivation. The changes happened, and still are. Not for any reciprocity either. I work real hard at my job. I don't do it to hear a compliment from patients or family members. But when I do get some recognition for my hard work...it is nice. But I do not expect it, nor is that why I work do hard. "Swim to the other shore without looking over your shoulder to see if they're following you. It slows down your progress a lot." That's one I'll remember. Thank you.
I accept that nothing about all of this will never be even. I need to just quit talking about it, and quit thinking about it, and just let it the fuk go!
I'll model it. Fuk court...I don't ever wanna go there again.
Yes, I see how you see it. It shouldn't matter to me anymore, at all, what she thinks or feels about me. Let it go means just that.
Everybody's changed or been affected one way or another because of all of this. The best thing that I can do at this point is STFU and let everything go that i have no control over. Let my changes speak for themselves. Whether or not they're noticed or believed should be irrelevant to me. I know. I should own my happiness and it shouldn't be dependent on what anybody else thinks or feels.
I can control me. I can't control others. I can do what's right, and let others think what they will.
I intend to stop my part in that. I do not want to joust with her anymore, especially about the kids.
I'm OK there. I only want to control me.
The first time he did this he was gone 3 days. He's been gone 2 and 1/2 weeks now. that's a long time. And no communication from him either, although I've reached out twice.
The fear of a possible court battle, with the realization that I am worrying needlessly at this point, regarding custody and money...is what I was referring to.
I agree, the truth has to be enough for me. Period.
I agree, worrying about what might happen on the future does me no good. I've been mountain biking a lot with friends; going again in the morning with them. And I'm taking a group out this morning on a road ride...and we're going long. And tomorrow evening I have a dinner date with a young lady.
OK. I'll let it go, and stop myself from negative thoughts that do me no good. 'Just Do It' is a good mantra.
GOOD STUFF
Antlers - this was embedded within your post.... "be here now, today"
Think about what that means and how you might apply that in your life.
Be - all of you... Be
Here - right here in the present, not some place else... Here
Now - not tomorrow, not yesterday... Now
I see your point. Thank you for drivin' it home.
Went to Court again this morning for my daughter's shoplifting charge. My daughter came up to me this time. She and I interacted throughout the whole process today. Her and her mom got there late. I was early and got a low number for her. It was crowded. I was seated and there was an empty seat next to mine. My daughter was standing next to me, and her mother was standing across the room. I walked across and offered those two seats to ex and my daughter. Ex declined. I sat back down and my daughter stayed with me. We got called in and we three sat together. Got called up to discuss community service, fines, grades, and attendance. Sat back down and waited for da' Judge. I was off work today, ex has work. I offered to take daughter to school after proceedings were over so she could get on to work. Whenever we moved from one location to another during the proceedings, I held doors open for ex and daughter, and let them go first once inside of s different place. Ex talked about new guy to daughter throughout the morning. We appeared before the Judge and she got 6 months probation. She paid her own fine and we all left. Out front, daughter wanted me to take her to school. We parted ways. I said "bye" to ex and we were off. Got daughter some breakfast on the way to school. I feel like I did alright under some uncomfortable circumstances. Daughter said she loved me as I let her out at school. Now I'm off like a prom dress...hittin' the road for a long ride.
given the givens, it sounds as if it went as well as possible.
Stay the course. Can YOU see the positives here?
Yes. I can see em'.
Ex texted me during the proceedings and said "Not sure if you've noticed but she inherited the antlers attitude."
I texted back "Remember when she was little and we walked past a Chinese dude in the OU library and she goes out loud "Hey, he looks like Jackie Chan". She's got such a strong character. She's such an individual! Ought to make for an exciting life.
God help us!"
I intend for my responses to have some wit, be short, and have NO expectations.
She responded with "She's very blunt and doesn't care at all if what she says or does hurts others."
I haven't responded to that yet. But i still intend for my response to have some wit, be short, and have NO expectations.
Any ideas?
sounds like that part came from her mom
(maybe not so much what you are looking for)
Sounds as if it went well. I used to be very cold to my ex as I was still hurting quite a bit. Slowly I began to treat him like the mailman. You know how you can just have friendly chatter as they give you your mail? So that has now grown to us talking about our favorite sports team, world events, friends and of course our kids. we aren't friends but I will say it is a lot nicer to be able to get along.
I have primary custody and he has our girls every other weekend. The boys refuse to do the weekends but my 16 year old will go for the few hours once a week if he isn't working. S19 rarely goes anymore as he is busy with his life.
I don't remember your whole situation but my ex cheated on me and married his affair partner a bit over a year ago.
kat
Antlers:
I think you held up very well under difficult circumstances. I think your daughter did as well. I think your ex was horrible. To talk about new guy in this situation and to rub D's behaviour in your face (even when D was behaving well) was terribly inappropriate. But you can't control Ex's behaviour - you could only control your own (how many times have you heard that here?). But you did control your behaviour. And you set a great example to your daughter. You showed her that even when our loved ones occasionally screw up - we will stand beside them. We will support them. And we still love them.
Getting the low number. Giving up the seats you saved. Holding the doors etc - that was chivalrous behaviour and even if ex didn't seem to appreciate - she noticed.
Actions speak louder than words. Your actions spoke very loudly today.
I'm proud of you! But you can be extremely proud of yourself. And I will bet that things improve immensely with your daughter after this.
Barb
Thank you Barb. Your compliments mean just as much to me as your ass kickings do. They mean a lot! And thank you to 25, kat, and figgeroni too, for responding today. I thought about what I'd respond with while I rode today. When I got in, I texted ex "She has a good heart.", along with a pic of daughters hand in my dads hand while he was very sick and dying. I sent a quick follow-up that said "And, she can change.
Speaking of change.....
The Man's Prayer:
I'm a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess."
That's it. Some wit, short, and NO expectations.
Antlers: Throughout the past 10 years and my interactions with ex - I can honestly say that I screwed up more than I did well. To the point that it was SO much easier just to avoid him altogether. But on those rare occasions when I got it right - I was proud of myself and just felt so much better. I'm sure my kids felt better too.
Did I do things that I regret? Yes, more often than I could count and what do I regret most? That my children saw me behave that way.
So I kick butt when I try to stop someone from doing the things that I did. But you sure earned your praise today.
Barb
Antlers
just curious. Why do you need to "respond" to her jibes at all?
Stay focussed on your son. Positives about HIM and not a lot else -- she's too busy fuming/festering to react with ANYTHING from you but negatives.
Go dark, on her anger at least.
((( )))
Regarding responding to her.....I'm trying to develop a good rapport with her concerning the kids. Communication, sbout thrm, is important. We've been at each other throughout most of this and I'd really like to find some common ground as it relates to our kids. I love them and I know she does too. Our kids have paid a high price for watching us fight. Before, during, and after the divorce. I'm hoping that we can both put our kids best interests above our own. This would be something new.
It's pretty obvious that she is NOT into trying to make any kind of peace. Sometimes it is better not to get the last word in. Let her think that she did. Silence is golden.
Barb
at THIS point Antlers,
your retorts will be seen as you getting last word in. Not as cute jokes or peace offerings. Maybe much later, like in a year
you two can communicate more normally.
TIl then, just keep her abreast of school notifications and document that (email w/attachments will suffice) and
don't work so hard at improving something when it's too raw for her.
It's like picking at the scab saying you want it to heal. It can't heal right now. Leave it alone.
Stay strong and consistent for your kids. That's your mission for now.
You do NOT have to communicate "well" with her, ever.
You just have to keep her informed. We can hope she follows suit later. But you can't expect it any time soon unless you feel like seeing her in court.
But the more you keep her informed, the better you will look in court IF she brings you back there. And it's good for the son to have both parents know the real deal at school, so he can't play as many games with you.
Don't underestimate the value of him having sibling time either. He loves and misses his mom and his sister, so this living arrangement does not shock me even if all was going well with you two.
There may come a time when they both change their minds & come live with you,
but just don't make your first response a request for child support from their mom, okay? OR a "victory" for you.
Hang in there.
((( )))
I still have not heard one word from my son since he got mad and left on Jan. 11th. I have reached out to him several times since then, but to no avail. I've sent him several short messages along the lines of "I'm thinking about you and I love you". His uncle and grandmother have reached out to him also, with the same results...nothing. It is heartbreaking.
My youngest daughter and I (the one who sent me that nasty text back in December) have been getting along well though. We text daily, and go out to lunch frequently.
I am very despondent over my son.
Antlers,
this is not complicated.
Back off the son and embrace the time you have with your youngest d. What healthy choice do you have?
There was a time, I suspect, when none of them wanted to be around you.
So take what you can get for now and savor it.
Big picture-there is progress.
"DO" NOTHING about your son for now, (but staying involved in his schoolwork via communication with them).
Stop trying to control the outcome. It will get better IN TIME.
You have to back off...pull way back.
Can you do that? If not, why not?
That is a question you really have to ponder.
(((( ))))
at THIS point Antlers,
your retorts will be seen as you getting last word in. Not as cute jokes or peace offerings. Maybe much later, like in a year
you two can communicate more normally. A short while back you advised me that if I received a communication from her, to respond with some wit, be brief, and have ZERO expectations. That's all I'm doing. Honest.
TIl then, just keep her abreast of school notifications and document that (email w/attachments will suffice) and
don't work so hard at improving something when it's too raw for her.
It's like picking at the scab saying you want it to heal. It can't heal right now. Leave it alone. OK. Makes sense.
Stay strong and consistent for your kids. That's your mission for now. I am staying consistent. I intend to continue. I'm staying strong too...even though the situation with my son is painful. Got another real bad nastygram from the school a few days ago.
You do NOT have to communicate "well" with her, ever. I realize that...but it'd be nice. For the kids and us.
You just have to keep her informed. We can hope she follows suit later. But you can't expect it any time soon unless you feel like seeing her in court. I picked up daughter from school today because she texted me that she was sick and asked me to come and get her. I texted her mom to let her know. Fuk court. I don't EVER want anything to do with court again as long as I live.
But the more you keep her informed, the better you will look in court IF she brings you back there. And it's good for the son to have both parents know the real deal at school, so he can't play as many games with you. I'll keep her informed. She's getting all the nastygrams from the school too. She's known the real deal at his school for a long time now. Hasn't mattered in the past. She's used every opportunity to take advantage of the situation. Maybe that'll change...I don't know. I can't control that. I'll continue to do what's right regardless.
Don't underestimate the value of him having sibling time either. He loves and misses his mom and his sister, so this living arrangement does not shock me even if all was going well with you two. I'm sure he missed all of them. All was going well with us, except for him acting out. It still hurts for him to have acted like he has since he's been gone.
There may come a time when they both change their minds & come live with you,
but just don't make your first response a request for child support from their mom, okay? OR a "victory" for you. If that ever came about, I WOULD NOT do that.
Hang in there. I am. It hurts...but I am. I AM enjoying being with my daughter more.
((( )))
Antlers,
this is not complicated. it seems pretty complicated when you're in the midst of it. I can see how it's not complicated to someone who isn't emotionally invested in it.
Back off the son and embrace the time you have with your youngest d. What healthy choice do you have?
I don't have any other healthy choice but that. I am really enjoying the time with my daughter. It'd be easy to back off my son because I haven't heard one word from him since he left.
There was a time, I suspect, when none of them wanted to be around you.
So take what you can get for now and savor it. Yep. There was. But things change. My son now wants nothing to do with me, and my youngest daughter is spending time with me. She hasn't mentioned that nasty text she sent in December and neither have I.
Big picture-there is progress. There has been progress with my daughter. Things have gotten bad with my son. Real bad. Things are up and down with me...there are peaks and valleys, but overall, I DO believe I've made a lot of progress personally since Halloween.
"DO" NOTHING about your son for now, (but staying involved in his schoolwork via communication with them). Nothing? Should I not continue to text him once or twice a week? That's really all I can do. I do stay in touch with his school.
Stop trying to control the outcome. It will get better IN TIME. I hope it does. I don't want to control any damn thing or anybody...just me. I feel like I'm losing my son though. It's heartbreaking.
You have to back off...pull way back.OK. But can you elaborate on "back off...pull way back"? I'm not in a position to do much of anything else. Does that mean stop attempting communication with him at all?
Can you do that? Yeah. I can. Damn, I've done lots of stuff since all this began that I didn't think I could. It doesn't come natural though. It takes EFFORT. And the passage of time alone don't do it for me. I've gotta take positive action during that passage of time. Again, can you elaborate on what 'that' is? If not, why not?
That is a question you really have to ponder. I guess there's been some times in the past that backing off, letting go, and pulling back have been hard for me. I guess I tied in my self worth with whatever I needed to back off from, or let go of, or pull back from. Anytime I've not done that, the results have been negative. Pursuit for instance, has NEVER worked well for me.
(((( ))))
Got another bad nastygram from son's school yesterday regarding his bad behavior and absolute ceasing of putting forth any effort to do his work at school. It was forwarded to his mother.
I got a call while I was at work from ex regarding a fight that she and my daughter had. She said that she had asked daughter to be nice and respectful to her and that it was making her "crazy and depressed like when your dad and I were together". Daughter got very mad and left and was roaming the streets (at night) with friends and would not go with her mom when she pulled up beside her. Ex said daughter told her "I'm done!" She asked if I would try to contact her (since daughter wasn't communicating with her mom). I listened to everything ex had to say and simply said "I'll try to reach her". Daughter got back in touch with me right away and walked to my job in the dark and rain with one of her friends. I took them to my house and had my brother come over to stay with them while I did some stuff after work. I came back, brother went home, and I took daughter's friend over to another friends house. Then daughter and I got some dinner and went back home. I didn't ask her about anything, and she didn't have much to say other than she was fighting with her mom and she wasn't going home tonight. She did not want her mother to know where she was, or where she'd spend the night. She's really pissed at her. I did tell her that I would let her mom know where she was and she got upset with me about that. She wanted to spend the night with a friend who lives across the street from her school, so I talked with that girls mother on the phone and in person and she said my daughter was welcome there for the night. I have to leave for work way before it's even time for daughter to get up and start getting ready for school. Daughter stayed with me kinda late then I took her over there.
She had been trying to get my son (who is still at his moms) to set some clothes out for her but they were fighting with each other too. He wasn't home. Son was still out roaming the streets with another 14 year old boy who has already dropped out of school. Keep in mind it's a school night. Daughter said he finally got home around 11 o'clock at night and we went by there and daughter went in and quickly got some stuff and left. I dropped her off, talked with girls mom, and went home. daughter thanked me and said she loved me.
After I got home, daughter and I continued to text some. I sent the following communication to ex.......
"Ex, I know we have been at each other throughout most of this and I'd really like to find some common ground as it relates to our kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking....our kids have paid a high price for watching us fight. Before, during, and after the divorce. I hope we can both put our kids best interests above our own. What are your thoughts?"
I have yet to hear anything back from her.
Thoughts? Comments? Feedback? I'd appreciate hearing from you folks.
Gineen has a point here. But I know you are walking on thin ground. I don't even know how to advise you. I think you need a mediator. I think you need to go back to your lawyer for advice and input. This situation is not healthy for anyone. But you can't demand he live with you. The courts will decide that he is old enough to make that decision.
But, after thinking about your situation yesterday - I think you may need more advice than any of us amateurs can give you.
Wishing you the best.
Barb
I have had different thoughts from everyone else regarding your son, so I have kept my mouth shut. I am no expert on childbearing, as I have had to start counseling for my D, but here goes. Different thoughts and opinions are always good Gineen. I'd appreciate you not holding back just because your thoughts and opinions are different. I don't think any of us here are experts at child rearing. Let's have it!
I never agreed with "give S space, let him go be with his mom and back off" SOMEBODY needs to take control here. He doesn't need space, he needs discipline! If it is interfering with his school, someone needs to take the reigns. Both your son and daughter are going to the opposite parents when one things they can't get anything by on the other. I would say one can't go running to the other ones house when they don't like the discipline. It seems that's what they are doing. They can't get away with at one house, so they go to the other's, once that welcome wears off,t he behavior isn't tolerated, they run back to the other parent.The situation is though that neither of us are in a position to stop them from going to the other parents house whenever they choose to. They are teenagers, not toddlers, and the courts will allow kids their age to go where they want to when it comes to parents...regardless of the legal status of the kids go. When you have one parent who refuses to be on the same page as the other when it comes to discipline and consistency...it makes the situation more difficult. We have joint custody of both kids, with me primary custodian of our son and her primary custodian of daughter. The GAL that she got involved recommended full custody of son to me, and the same with our daughter to her. My lawyer said the Judge woul ho along with those recommendations. I told my lawyer at mediation that joint custody was OK with me. I didn't want to be a hardass concerning the kids...even though she had tried her hardest to take them away from me.
They are still kids. They need control. Of course it would be so much better if you can coparent. But right now, I think they may be actually looking for one parent to take control. This is just my observation from what you write. Like I said, I am a newbie at the child-rearing thing, but yes, I know instances like this. My dad even did it. His parents divorced when he was 10. His dad was not so present, in and out, but when he didn't want to "deal" with his mom's discipline, he ran to his dad. Finally his mother put her foot down and he straightened up his act. I agree with everything you've said Gineen. They need discipline and consistency. Unfortunately, the situation is what it is. I feel like I've extended the olive branch concerning our kids.
So, that's my advice, and kind of what I was thinking, but didn't want to interfere with the other's completely opposite opinion when they have much more parenting experience than I.
But, it sounds like you may need another suggestion. I did get in touch with her after our daughter left her home...unlike her when my son left my home. My only concern now is the well being of our kids. BTW, I always appreciate your responses...even when you're bustin' my balls. Thank you.
Hi Barb. Fuk court. Fuk lawyers. I don't want anything to do with any of that ever again. Gineen has good points, and ideally that's the way it should go. But this is a less than ideal situation. Neither of us can demand where the kids live.
I do feel like I've extended the olive branch concerning our kids.
And I feel like she's too busy fuming/festering to react with ANYTHING from me but negatives.
I'm gonna take the high road. I have no control over what she does.
This is what I sent her the night that our daughter left her house.....
"Ex, I know we have been at each other throughout most of this and I'd really like to find some common ground as it relates to our kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking....our kids have paid a high price for watching us fight. Before, during, and after the divorce. I hope we can both put our kids best interests above our own. What are your thoughts?"
This is the response I got from her the following day.....
"I think that's possible if you'll stop telling them how I'm the one who destroyed the family and cheated and crap and if your family will stay out of it and stop telling them crap about me."
"You even told them I cheated with Steve. Give me a freakin break. I'm so sick and tired of you telling them those lies."
I have not responded.
My feeling regarding the kids.....I'm not concerned, at all, with focusing on the past. I did what i did, and she did what she did. My concern for our kids now is.....from this moment forward.....to focus on the present and future in order to help them be well adjusted and successful. I want to DO something about the problems the kids are having. Solution building is the goal.
The reason why you need lawyers and courts is because if they are becoming a serious problem in school, you probably could control where they go under the age of 18.
My experience with the legal system has been that you'll be better off if you can stay the hell out of it. Especially in my situation. Fuk it. "Probably" don't cut it. I want the kids to be able to come and go between their parents without any of the animosity or other erroneous feelings that has been present so far.
IF I responded, I considered this............
"Ex, my feeling regarding our kids is this.......I'm not concerned, at all, with focusing on the past. We both did things that contributed to the ending of our marriage and our family. My concern for our kids now and from this moment forward is.......to focus on the present and future in order to help them be well adjusted and successful. I want to DO something about the problems the kids are having. Solution building, and getting positive results, is the goal."
What do y'all think?
well...if where you live is anywhere like where I live and your kids continue to run amuk and the police are ever called on them, you as the parents, can have charges pressed against you for curfew violation as well as truancy from school etc etc
the school can also call social services and if there are problems at school a guardian can be placed, which is what we have done at my school for kids who have had truancy problems or academic problems
so as much as you want to keep the courts out of it, they may come into it anyway
I live in the Midwest. It's not like that here. Some of the kids that our kids run around with.....their lives and circumstances are 100 times more messed up than our kids are. Seriously. That's not OK, but it is the way it is.
Any feedback on the proposed response?
Antlers:
I think you should have responded yesterday. I think you should speak up on the kids behalf without sounding preachy. But answer in a more timely manner - you didn't like it when she didn't get back to you.
FYI - Fig is also in the Midwest (well - sort of).
The point is - if you and ex cannot figure this out between you - the courts CAN and WILL get involved. That part is simple. And Gineen is right - someone needs to put their foot down with son.
But - once again - none of us is experts. There is no "one size fits all" answer here or a handbook for raising teens. I sure wish there was. Single parenting is difficult at best. Somehow I got through it but many times I wanted the answers - & they weren't there so I used my brain and listened to my heart & worked it out.
Not the help you're looking for but it is hard to find the answers.
Barb
Antlers:
I think you should have responded yesterday. I think you should speak up on the kids behalf without sounding preachy. But answer in a more timely manner - you didn't like it when she didn't get back to you.
Barb....I sent her the following message the very night that our daughter left her house.....
"Ex, I know we have been at each other throughout most of this and I'd really like to find some common ground as it relates to our kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking....our kids have paid a high price for watching us fight. Before, during, and after the divorce. I hope we can both put our kids best interests above our own. What are your thoughts?"
I was trying to set a precedent. I was doing something that I thought was right, even though she never communicated with me when my son left. Ever. I received a reply from her the following day and I posted it here. It focused on the past instead of the here and now. I typed up a sample response to it that night and posted it here to get some feedback...because I wanted it to be on the kids behalf and not sound preachy. I didn't get any feedback on it yet. It's important and I want it to be good. I'd still appreciate folks here looking at it and letting me know.
Thank you.
My point is simple - respond. Use the tools you've learned here and elsewhere to create a response. Waiting for input here is costing you precious time. Whether she responds or not - it's about YOU that matters. How YOU handle it.
You won't always get input right when you want or need it. You have to do what is right for you. It's like letting someone else "Direct" your life. It's great to get help and input but it's not always going to happen. Some of us are at a loss as to what to say that will help.
So figure out what you think is best and do it. Google some info on helping teens in the situation you describe. There are also Parent Help lines. Not everyone here can relate - we're not all in the same situation. We care though.
Barb
Antlers - quick post and then I got to run. I'll check back in later.
First, I like the first note you sent to your W. It was neutral and future oriented and I think it struck the right tone.
Her response below, includes an important opening for you:
"I think that's possible if you'll stop telling them how I'm the one who destroyed the family and cheated and crap and if your family will stay out of it and stop telling them crap about me." "You even told them I cheated with Steve. Give me a freakin break. I'm so sick and tired of you telling them those lies."
Your proposed response is fine but I think you have to acknowledge that she has indicated that she would be willing to work with you regarding the kids, if....... That is your opening. Maybe you include something like, "I agree that our pointing fingers is doing us or the kids, no good and just serves to increase the tension between us. I'll talk to my family. Can we then call a truce and...." then work in your intended response with a few proposed solutions.
Be prepared for more vitriol from your W. Keep your cool and then keep going back, each time acknowledging (not necessarily agreeing) in general her point of view while all the while, keeping the direction of communicating focused on the kids.
Keep your cool, Antlers. Validate the hell out of your wife. And keep your cool.
You have the opportunity here I think to make significant forward progress. But you have got to be willing to swallow your pride some. Remember the kids are the focus right now.
I intend to respond Barb. I want it to be good and effective. And I do appreciate the care and concern.
Thanks 2tp. That's the kind of help I'm looking for. Here's a rough draft...lemme know what ya' think?
Ex, I agree that our pointing fingers is doing us or the kids no good and just serves to increase the tension between us. I'll talk to my family. Can we then call a truce and work together concerning our kids....so they can receive the love, support, and cooperation from their parents that they need and deserve?
I'm not concerned, at all, with focusing on the past any more. We both did things that contributed to the ending of our marriage and our family. My concern for our kids now and from this moment forward is to focus on the present and future in order to help them be well adjusted and successful. I want to DO something about the problems the kids are having. I love them and want what's best for them, and I know that you do too. Solution building and getting positive results is the goal.
Ditch the part about "we both did things that contributed to the ending of our M and family..." Its like you still need to get a dig in there (i.e. ex shares in responsibility). It is not necessary and will only serve to antagonize further.
As a side note. At some point I think your and ex will need to sit down with the kids and show them a united front as far as expectations for them are concerned. Of course you both will need to have developed a game plan or plan of action ahead of time. And I think it will have to be done in person with your ex. Back and forth via email will not work IMO. Get the plan worked out together. Work through and work out the tension before meeting with the kids or they will see right through it and manipulate the sitch.
You and your ex have to demonstrate a firm and united front or it will not work.
Ditch the part about "we both did things that contributed to the ending of our M and family..." Its like you still need to get a dig in there (i.e. ex shares in responsibility). It is not necessary and will only serve to antagonize further.
I only added that because in her initial response to me she only mentioned how I had accused her of wrongdoing with the insinuation that she had done none and it was all me. My response shows ownership 'and' shared responsibility. And I mentioned that I'd speak to my family.....even though my kids have told me that her family bad mouths me too. I'm not trying to get in a dig...I'm owning my actions...but not turning a blind eye to shared responsibility either. It doesnt sound 'accusing' to me. That's the truth. Do you still feel I shoul nix that part? Am I supposed to take ALL responsibility for what happened.....like she wants me too?
You had mentioned earlier in my thread that by saying "we" that it takes a little of the sting out of the comment while at the same time shows me taking some ownership as well which you believed helps to create common ground. That's all I was thinking and doing.
Yup...Midwest here...MN, SD, ND. Live in MN, teach in SD
drop the part about both of you doing bad things
it will make her want to counter with how you did worse things
if it is really about the kids
it doesn't matter what her family is saying about you
because you can't control that
you can only control you
Also, Barb is right...
anytime you waste is time lost
I sent the following text to her today, in response to her last text to me:
"Ex, I agree that our pointing fingers is doing us and the kids no good and just serves to increase the tension between us. I'll talk to my family. Can we then call a truce and work together concerning our kids....so they can receive the love, support, and cooperation from their parents that they need and deserve?
I'm not concerned, at all, with focusing on the past any more. My concern for our kids now and from this moment forward is to focus on the present and future in order to help them be well adjusted and successful. I want us to DO something about the problems the kids are having. I love them and want what's best for them, and I know that you do too. Solution building and getting positive results is the goal. You and I need to present a firm and united front concerning our kids, their behavior, and what we expect from them."
I think the message was fine.
"I'm not trying to get in a dig...I'm owning my actions...but not turning a blind eye to shared responsibility either. It doesnt sound 'accusing' to me. That's the truth. Do you still feel I shoul nix that part? Am I supposed to take ALL responsibility for what happened...like she wants me too?
Here's the thing Antlers, until you drop the sword of anger and resentment, you will not be able to move forward. The D is over!! Swallow your pride, suk it up about who is responsible for what and work with your ex on the mutual goal of raising the children.
Here's the other thing. Forget about whether or not something sounds accusing to you or not. If it sounds accusing to your ex or to us, then guess what? That's exactly how it will be interpreted.
So, do your best to ditch all negativity and resentment. Start from scratch....from this day forward. Dump the baggage and you will see a whole new level of cooperation between you and your ex. And that will be good for the kids, right?
I think the message was fine. Thank you. And thanks for your help and feedback. I think it was a good response to her.
Here's the thing Antlers, until you drop the sword of anger and resentment, you will not be able to move forward. The D is over!! Swallow your pride, suk it up about who is responsible for what and work with your ex on the mutual goal of raising the children. I'm not angry and resentful 2tp. Honestly. I've truly forgiven my ex for the hurtful things she did. And I've moved forward quite a bit over the last 3 and 1/2 months...since I truly decided to. I know it's over. I truly do. I've swallowed my pride s bunch over the last 3 years. That's OK. My kids and their well being are what's important to me now.
Here's the other thing. Forget about whether or not something sounds accusing to you or not. If it sounds accusing to your ex or to us, then guess what? That's exactly how it will be interpreted. I appreciate that...and that's one reason that feedback is important. To help. Asking questions or wanting clarification doesn't mean I disagree.
So, do your best to ditch all negativity and resentment. Start from scratch....from this day forward. Dump the baggage and you will see a whole new level of cooperation between you and your ex. And that will be good for the kids, right? I've got a good genuine attitude about this. I meant what I said in both of my communications to her. I'd love to see what I'm suggesting, and I'd love for my kids to be helped.
Antlers
you are still keeping score and reminding her of it. That's NOT helpful to anyone, even you.
WISH you could see that.
It shows little growth/insight and
it does NOT sound as if you are "taking responsibility" at all. Not to her. Heck, even I thought you should have said nothing about your r with her...
just about the kids...otherwise it's all about who did what to whom and you did have to get a dig.
You think that "Sharing" the fault for the divorce, changes what SHE believes? It doesn't. IT CONFIRMS HER NEGATIVE VIEWS OF YOU...
just stay in your sandbox and do NOT mention what she did to you. The truth will surface and is reflected in her future actions and behaviors. The kids have eyes and ears. They were there and still are. They are smart enough to know who has grown and changed and who has not. ANd who is still letting their wounds fester.
You need say nothing bad (even if true) about their mother. EVER.
That is taking the high road.
And it will be much more appreciated by them than keeping score of sounding petty and saying "yes I did bad things and I 'own' them BUT SHE'S AT FAULT TOO..."
do you see how that undermines the changes you claim?
it's pure scorekeeping. Lose the scorecard.
Otherwise, good job. And good luck
I DID NOT mention any scorekeeping or remind her of it in either of the communications that I sent to her regarding us and the kids. I realize it wouldn't be helpful to anyone. I can see it...and I'm glad that some folks here point it out to me when something I say can be interpreted that way by her...even when it's not my intention. I feel like I've come quite a ways since Halloween as far as growth/insight. And really, I have 'owned' my screwups from day 1...even if she doesn't see of that way. But I'm glad that some folks here point things out to me that can be interpreted by her in a way that I did not intend. It's a learning experience. It's only about the kids from here on out. To me. Who did what doesn't mean anything anymore. I honestly don't want to make anymore 'cuts'. I can see that 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding. Sh!t...I think that my still breathing confirms her negative views of me. I'm only concerned about our kids and their well-being. I haven't said anything bad about her to out kids ever since I said I wouldn't...and I won't. I do see how mentioning that it wasn't all me undermines my changes. Again, sometimes I need reminding. I'll lose the scoreboard...completely. I honestly do not 'feel' a need to do that, nor do I feel any anger or resentment.
I did want to extend an olive branch concerning our kids...I feel like I have. I'll continue. I do think the 2 texts that I've sent her about this are good.
Thank you.
you did send an olive branch and that was good. Just keep it ALL about them no matter how she tries to lure you into a fight or contest.
Turn it back around and say "I understand you feel that way. I also know we both love our children so let's get back to them..."
Don't say "BUT..." at all. Just that you get what she is saying (not that you agree but that you KNOW how SHE feels...
and then stay on topic, which is solely about the kids.
Ask for her opinion in specific ways-not so you are asking if you two can get along. That's a bit much for her now, Imo.
Antlers, just wanted to follow up one last time before going to bed....not feeling well tonight.
You had mentioned earlier in my thread that by saying "we" that it takes a little of the sting out of the comment while at the same time shows me taking some ownership as well which you believed helps to create common ground. That's all I was thinking and doing.
The quote below was my original suggestion. Note that when I referenced "we" I was talking about that in the context of the opening sentence. You did this in your note to your Ex but then went on in your proposed response to place blame... "we both did things that contributed to.....".
"Something like, "Ex, I know we have been at each other in our various interactions and I'd really like to try to find some common ground as it relates to the kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking.... what are your thoughts?" Saying "we" in the opening statement takes a little of the sting out of your comment while at the same time shows you taking some ownership as well which I believe helps to create common ground"On your post back to me below, you are attempting to justify what you included in your proposed response as not turning a blind eye...
"I'm not trying to get in a dig...I'm owning my actions...but not turning a blind eye to shared responsibility either. It doesnt sound 'accusing' to me. That's the truth. Do you still feel I shoul nix that part? Am I supposed to take ALL responsibility for what happened...like she wants me to?"In essence, yes ^^^^^ if you ever want to get to a workable solution. I think this is what 25 is referring to as the scorecard. You've got to get rid of it!
I know that swallowing this crap sandwich really suks. But what is your alternative?
Think of it this way. God appears to you in a dream and says:
"Antlers, tell your Ex that you are sorry for all the hurt that occurred in your M, even though I know you are not entirely at fault. Take 100% of the blame and never, ever speak or think ill of your Ex again.
In return, I will give you ever lasting peace, your children will be forever well behaved and have hugely successful marriages and careers. And you will be granted everlasting happiness"And you only have 2 choices. Accept everything that God has offered you in your dream, or
go back to where you are today and never get off the proverbial dime.Wouldn't it be worth it to take God up on his offer and turn a blind eye to shared responsibility and take ALL responsibility for what happened...like she wants me to... for the sake of the prize that God has offered you?
If your answer is yes, then see if you can't also do the same thing without Gods promise.
In other words you would have no guarantees. But maybe, just maybe you might still win the prize.
Does that make sense?
AMEN!!!
YES that is what I'm saying Antlers...if you want to OWN something
then just own it, and stop talking about what someone OTHER THAN YOU
is responsible for. That is not "owning" it, that's assessing blame, she gets some and you take some and we're left to guess who really wronged whom. That invites more comparison instead of just progress.
What you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that you are keeping score...it's like you want to take 51% or just half and that's not achievable or really justifiable....and it IS keeping score. Do you see that now?
You are not a mind reader and you don't know what it was or is in her heart.
All you KNOW is that YOU effed up. So own THAT & ONLY THAT...
lose the scorecard, please. YOU will benefit greatly.
Yes, it makes sense.
I do see that mentioning 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding of that. Sometimes I might say things that will be interpreted by her in a way that I had no intention of conveying to her. I honestly have no anger or resentment, and I have no desire to keep score.
I do appreciate your input. It's been sound wisdom. Thank you.
All you KNOW is that YOU effed up. So own THAT & ONLY THAT...
That's honestly how I feel about 98% of the time. Maybe 99%.
I understand what you and 2tp are saying.
OK, I lied. I'm still up. I guess the Advil finally kicked in. One more thing, Antlers...
Yes, it makes sense.
I do see that mentioning 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding of that. Sometimes I might say things that will be interpreted by her in a way that I had no intention of conveying to her. I honestly have no anger or resentment, and I have no desire to keep score.
I do appreciate your input. It's been sound wisdom. Thank you.
Back in January I posted the following on this very thread:
"Hey Antlers - I don't think it is going to be as easy as a single communication that get you two to discuss this matter in a constructive way. It is probably going to take the form of several positive interactions between you and your W before she will be open to hearing and changing.
A friend who is D had a very strained R with his ex. Then one day he stopped by to pick up his son and when his ex answered the door, he said hello and simply shook her hand. That one simple gesture of respect opened up other doors for him and his ex to have conversations about what they wanted for their son and how they would achieve that together.
Just something to consider."I just wanted to remind you of this ^^^^^.
Show your Ex-W respect, even though she doesn't deserve it. Lose the memory of her wrong doing for the sake of an improved relationship and for your children. I promise it will make all the difference in the world!
Show your Ex-W respect, even though she doesn't deserve it. Lose the memory of her wrong doing for the sake of an improved relationship and for your children. I promise it will make all the difference in the world!
OK. I'll do it. And I believe it too. I really appreciate your participation on my thread. Thank you.
Well, I heard back from Ex. Here's her response......,..
"You need to tell your family to stay out of our kid's business. This is between you and me. And just to let you know they'd stay out of it if you'd quit telling them everything. Omg can you not be a parent on your own without running to them?
And apparently they're only being told part of everything based on what they're telling me."
Seems like she just wants to fight. How do I respond to that?
Do I say, "I understand you feel that way. I also know we both love our kids so lets get back to them specifically."???
How about something along the lines of:
Ex, I understand your frustration and as I said in my previous message, I will talk to them. For now I think we need to focus our energies on the children and getting them back on track. I think it is something that we can and should do together. I need your help.....
See if you can approach it again from a neutral posture and continue to redirect your Ex back to the issue of the children. I think it is going to take several attempts before your Ex comes down from her perch to engage you in a healthy way.
Just remember to keep your cool, continue to validate and redirect back to the kids.
Thanks 2tp.
Here's what I replied with just a few moments ago.......
"I understand you feel that way, and as I said in my previous message, I will talk with them. I know that we both love our kids so lets get back to them and focus our energies on them specifically. How can we get our kids back on track? I think its something we can and should do together. They need our help."
why the request to "do it together"?
can't you just communicate more? Or present a "united front?"
You do not have to do it together as in, in person...
See, to me it still looks like pursuit. Just mho.
ps
I doubt your w is ready to work or do anything "together' with you at this time.
Don't set yourself up for rejection and then try to say she's a bad mom for doing it. She's not ready.
Just detach a lot more and clarify what you are asking for
and
what you are NOT asking for..politely
Whoa. I don't mean anything as in, 'in person'. Not at all. The request was simply for cooperation. That's all.
Should I clarify that to her...since you took it that way?
you could say "hey when I say working on this together, w, I mean more open communication about the kids and presenting a united front after we discuss things. Hope I wasn't unclear"....
Maybe...ask others what they think. It struck me that way=as in you were telling her she should work "with" you "together" and I don't see that happening soon or being enjoyable for either.
Not yet anyhow.
ok?
I didn't interpret it the way 25 did, but your Ex may have. I like 25's suggested response and think it sends the right tone and message.
I think I'd wait awhile to see if you get a response to your initial message before sending out the clarification. You may find it is not needed OR is badly needed in which case you will want to carefully restate your earlier point.
OK.
I just said....."Hey, when I say 'working on this together' Ex, I didn't mean as in, 'in person'. I mean cooperation...more open communication about our kids...and presenting a united front after we discuss things. Hope I wasn't unclear."
Did y'all think that response was OK?
I think it was fine. Did you get a response yet? Do you expect one?
I didn't get a response yet. And 'no'..,I don't expect one. When I communicate with her, I have NO expectations.
BTW 2tp, I really do appreciate your help. I know you have your hands full with your own situation.
Antlers - no worries. I'm happy to pay it forward when I can. I really hope you are able to find an opening with your ex. Keep going back to the well. She'll come around eventually.
My son has been in so much trouble at school lately (behaviour and schoolwork) that his teachers and counselor and vice principal all wanted to meet collectively with my son, his mother, and I. They contacted she and I last week by e-mail and requested that we meet today. Meeting time was set at 9:35 to 10:25. They said in the e-mail that they felt it was important that our son "see that we are a united front and that we are extremely concerned about him."
I agreed and looked forward to the meeting. This morning right before the meeting was to start, the vice principal informed me that she had just received communication from Ex that she didn't want to do it the way they had planned. She didn't want my son, she , and I to do the meeting at the same time. She wanted separate meetings...one that included me, and one that included her. Son was supposed to be there at 9:35 but was AWOL. He never showed up. They even paged him overhead throughout the school.
So I met with them while Ex waited in the office. Each teacher told me of the behaviour problems they were having with him, and of his 'reluctance' to do his schoolwork in their class. Then the vice principal told me of his behaviour problems that she was dealing with. I then told them that my son meant the world to me and that I was committed to helping him in whatever way I could.
My son never showed up during our meeting. The male teachers were searching the restrooms for my son when I left, and they all were getting ready to have the same meeting with my Ex. Don't know if they found my son and made him go to that meeting or not.
I'm very disappointed. I was looking forward to my son seeing that we were all united in our concern for him and our desire for him to do better. I'm gonna send him a text later letting him know that I was looking forward to seeing him today (I haven't seen him or heard from him since he left on Jan. 11th) and that I love and miss him.
Damn.
I'm sorry too. Heartbroken really.
The vice principal said there would be consequences.
I haven't seen him in over a month. I texted him because I love and miss him.
It is your business Gineen because I come here for advice. It's a bad situation. There are no consequences for him. Just as long as he stays there. She took him to the Thunder basketball game last night!
Since the "united front" was destroyed and non-existent, no...the school didn't suggest anything.
what were the suggestions from the school?
How does your son get to school? Bus? Bike? driven by ex?
truancy will be filed on your son if this is a common occurance
you will go to court if that happens
you will face jail time or fines
this is the law
some courts push probation and some do not
I have known parents to have to go to jail
looking forward to seeing your son is great
texting him this is fine but perhaps letting him know that skipping school is not acceptable and consequences will happen because of that
and then
enforce them
how important is that cell phone to him?
important enough to go to school and shape up?
I know it is for my son
how important are any extra-curriculars (which he should be benched from now anyway)
or
hanging with friends
or
curfew
or
freedoms
you aren't his buddy or his friend
you are his parent
They resented me for being weak after their mother left. That weakness doesn't exist anymore. They've seen me get stronger. I don't know how I alone could take strict and firm action in these circumstances. It is possible that he is seeking this from his parents. I've asked for cooperation. I don't get it.
Can she not put aside her hatred and venom for me, in order to do what's best for our son?
The school didn't make any suggestions. Their intention was to have a 'united front'. We didn't.
Ex takes him to school or he rides the bus.
He's not a truant...he skipped a class...not school.
I did look forward to the meeting today. I was hopeful to it would go down as planned.
He did have consequences at our house. He has none over there. I can't enforce them from here.
His cell phone is very important to him. As is hangin' out with friends, other freedoms, and extracurricular activities. He gets all of those, with no consequences for bad behaviour, where he is now. I can do nothing when he's not with me.
I'm his dad first and foremost. He got to where he didn't like it if I told him 'no', or didn't let him always have his way. He threatened to "just go to moms"...and he did.
Yep, I was thinking the same thing. It is so sad that your kids are paying the price in this.
Maybe you can send another note to ex: Look we have two kids that are suffering greatly under the current circumstances. Even though our relationship ended our responsibility to these two great kids did not. We do not have to be friends but we do have to be the adults here and behave as parents.
The kids can not continue to play us off of each other. We have to agree and set boundaries for their poor behavior. It is what any responsible parent would do.
antlers
kat
The phone is under his mothers name. She and new guy got it for him for Christmas. High dollar smart phone with Internet....the whole enchilada.
Hi kat. Yeah, it's sad that the kids are paying such a price.
I've read your note, and I like it. I will think about it for a bit and decide whether or not to send one to her.
Thank you for providing it to me.
I went long.......I rode my bicycle 105.3 miles today.
And the cool part is that it wasn't even a race...I just said fuk it, and rolled out.
If you have custody of him, why is he there?
I get that he doesn't like rules
but
if he skipped class then he shouldn't get to participate in an extra curricular activity...isn't that a school policy...skipping class means not playing in the game...
make sure they enforce those rules
talk to coaches
perhaps there is someone that he will listen to...
band instructor
art teacher
drama coach
athletic director
as the drama teacher etc, I had the power to control participation level of students...I had a close relationship with lots of the parents
if she isn't going to work with you, then stop banging your head against the wall and find some other back-up
We have joint custody.
I'm primary custodian of son.
She's primary custodian of daughter.
Once they're teenagers the Court lets them go where THEY want to.
No, he doesn't like rules.
He doesn't do school sports or school related stuff.
Not a lot I can do about the situation. [censored], but true.
Here here! Fig is right. You need to take charge. This is nonsense. If he is supposed to be at your place - get him back. It should be court ordered (regardless of how you feel about the legal system). Especially if it is the only way he will have discipline enforced.
This is all beyond ridiculous and someone needs to be an enforcer.
Barb
Joint custody is joint custody. With teenagers, the Courts let the kids stay with whichever parent they want to, regardless of who is 'primary' custodian. The Courts will not make a teenager go to a parents house they don't want to go to in this situation. Like it or not, that's the precedent here in Oklahoma, as verified by multiple attorneys here.
My son has been in so much trouble at school lately (behaviour and schoolwork) that his teachers and counselor and vice principal all wanted to meet collectively with my son, his mother, and I. They contacted she and I last week by e-mail and requested that we meet today. Meeting time was set at 9:35 to 10:25. They said in the e-mail that they felt it was important that our son "see that we are a united front and that we are extremely concerned about him."
I agreed and looked forward to the meeting. This morning right before the meeting was to start, the vice principal informed me that she had just received communication from Ex that she didn't want to do it the way they had planned. She didn't want my son, she , and I to do the meeting at the same time. She wanted separate meetings...one that included me, and one that included her. Son was supposed to be there at 9:35 but was AWOL. He never showed up. They even paged him overhead throughout the school.
I know I'm a little late to the parade but wanted to circle back to the school meeting. First, your Ex's behavior was immature, irresponsible and inconsiderate.
Having said that, do you think that the note you sent your W clarifying....
"Hey, when I say 'working on this together' Ex, I didn't mean as in, 'in person'. I mean cooperation...more open communication about our kids...and presenting a united front after we discuss things. Hope I wasn't unclear." had any effect on her decision to not want to meet with you and the school officials?
I'm just wondering if she got scared off by the clarifying note. She never did respond did she?
Anyway, as I said before, you'll need to keep going back to the well again and again and eventually she'll come around.
I don't think the clarifying note scared her off 2tp. Why would it? 25 suggested it, and she's pretty insightful. Anyway, it's done now. I hope she'll come around.
kat suggested I send another note. What do y'all think of the following.......
Ex, look...we have two kids that are suffering greatly under the current circumstances. Even though our relationship ended, our responsibility to these two great kids did not. We do not have to be friends, but we do need to be the adults here and behave as parents.
The kids can not continue to play us off of each other. We need to agree and set boundaries for their behaviour. It is what any responsible parent would do.
That means putting our kids best interests above our own, and finding a way to form an amicable relationship with each other as co-parents.
Let's set aside any differences we may have and focus instead on meeting the needs of our kids.
Let's not disparage each other to our kids, nor let our kids speak disrespectfully about the other parent.
Let's agree on boundaries and behavioral guidelines for raising our kids so that there's consistency in their lives, regardless of which parent they're with at any given time.
Let's communicate actively with each other about all aspects of our kids development.
Let's recognise that kids are prone to testing a situation and manipulating boundaries and guidelines, especially if there's a chance to get something they may not otherwise be able to get.
Let's compare notes with each other before jumping to conclusions.
Let's focus our efforts on what our kids need most.
Is it too much?
I'm wanting to show her what I'm committed to doing, and to encourage cooperation between us.
I don't think the clarifying note scared her off 2tp. Why would it? 25 suggested it, and she's pretty insightful. Anyway, it's done now. I hope she'll come around.
I'm just thinking that when you said you didn't mean for you to to meet in person, that when an opportunity came up to meet in person regarding your son, she bailed. It just seems too coincidental. That's all
kat suggested I send another note. What do y'all think of the following.......
Ex, look...we have two kids that are suffering greatly under the current circumstances. Even though our relationship ended, our responsibility to these two great kids did not. We do not have to be friends, but we do need to be the adults here and behave as parents.
The kids can not continue to play us off of each other. We need to agree and set boundaries for their behaviour. It is what any responsible parent would do.
That means putting our kids best interests above our own, and finding a way to form an amicable relationship with each other as co-parents.
Let's set aside any differences we may have and focus instead on meeting the needs of our kids.
Let's not disparage each other to our kids, nor let our kids speak disrespectfully about the other parent.
Let's agree on boundaries and behavioral guidelines for raising our kids so that there's consistency in their lives, regardless of which parent they're with at any given time.
Let's communicate actively with each other about all aspects of our kids development.
Let's recognise that kids are prone to testing a situation and manipulating boundaries and guidelines, especially if there's a chance to get something they may not otherwise be able to get.
Let's compare notes with each other before jumping to conclusions.
Let's focus our efforts on what our kids need most.
I'd ditch all the "lets do this and lets do that language". It comes across as a little demanding and repetitive. Instead perhaps try something that is more in the form of a question and throw in a few temperature checks that seek her buy-in. Something like....
Let's Can we set aside any differences we may have and focus instead on meeting the needs of our kids. or
Let's I'm hoping we can communicate actively with each other about all aspects of our kids development. What do you think?You might also want to consider changing up the communication medium. for example, if you always communicate via email, how about a hand written letter sent through the mail. That would be a switch, don't you think?
OK. That makes sense to lose the "let's do this and let's do that" language. What about the length/test of it. Should I just replace those with "can we's" and "I hope we cans"?
your note is far too long...
your son is in trouble at school and the school said they wanted you two to present a united front.
The school was disappointed/confused about the message it sends that you two were not able to comply.
Maybe put a FEW sentences about what YOU are committed to doing and leave it at that,
But it still strikes me as not being more than 5-10 lines in all.
OR it'll sound like you are telling her how to parent.
And even though she's off base here,
I assume this was a nerve you struck when you began telling her how to parent (to her, I think that your new approach probably seems like too little too late. All we know though, is that it isn't gelling well)
Ask the school for suggestions too. Let HER know what THEY tell you. The more she thinks the "authorities" view you as the more involved parent-
perhaps
the more she'll want to show up with you.
Be mindful of the tone you take with her. Something tells me it really rubs her the wrong way.
But your son IS in trouble and that's the priority now.
OK. That makes sense. I'm fishin' here. How about.......
"Ex, we have two kids who are struggling right now (son especially) and even though our marriage ended, our responsibility to these two great kids didn't. The school said they wanted us to present a united front, and they were disappointed about the message it sent that we were not able to comply.
I'm committed to setting aside any differences we have to focus instead on meeting the needs of our kids." What are your thoughts?"
OK. I sent the following to her just now.....
"Ex, we have two kids who are struggling right now (son especially) and even though our marriage ended, our responsibility to these two great kids didn't. The school said they wanted us to present a 'united front', and they were disappointed about the message it sent that we were not able to comply.
I'm committed to setting aside any differences we have to focus instead on meeting the needs of our kids. What are your thoughts?"
We'll see.....
...and as the JEOPARDY music plays in the background, we patiently wait for a response from the former Mrs Antlers...
Throughout all of this recent stuff, I've continued to get bad e-mails from the school about my son. I got another one today from one of his teachers, coincidentally about the same time that I was sending this most recent communication to ex. I responded to the teachers e-mail. He got in trouble later on the same day that we had the meeting too, and the vice principal sent that communication to me. I forwarded that to ex.
Just heard back from her. This is what she sent.....
"The school had no idea our issues when they sent that email. Son didn't want everyone in the same room. If I were selfish like you I wouldn't have cared about his feelings and went along with the school. I talked to V.P. quite a bit afterwards and she understood the situation. And I don't know why you keep saying how bad he is. Well yes I do know why. Because it's how you are. Anything you can say or do to make yourself look like the poor victim no matter who you hurt. Son's grades have come up, he does his homework if he has any, and he is very respectful and sweet to me. So I don't know where you're getting that he's going downhill from unless you're hearing and saying what you want it to be. We can work together and communicate when you stop being selfish, stop lying, and stop running to your family about EVERYTHING."
Sigh! I guess you need to let facts and data speak for you.
I sent the following to her just now.......
"Ex, I want to keep this all about the kids. I do not want to fight with you, about anything, at all. My only concern is for our kids and their well-being.
The school didn't schedule this "team meeting" about son's behaviour and schoolwork because he's doing good Ex! They scheduled it because he's struggling...behaviourally and scholastically, at school. They are concerned. And Ms. Vice Principal told me Wednesday afternoon that she wished "we could have all met" like the school staff had planned. There was a reason for that....they felt it was "important that son see that we are a united front and that we are extremely concerned about him". And he's been in even more trouble at school in the two days since that meeting! I got an e-mail from Whittier about his bad behaviour on Wednesday (which I forwarded to you), and I got another today (which you also received) about his bad behaviour yesterday. I have in fact received more negative e-mails (about his bad behaviour and schoolwork) from his teachers and administrators at Whittier in the last 4 weeks than I have in the entire time he's been going to school there! Denying the existence of his problems will not make them go away.
I understand you feel the way you do about me......and I am sorry for all the hurt that occurred in our marriage.
Please let's keep this all about our kids. And only about our kids.
I love them very much and I know Ex that you do too. I'm focused on the present and the future. I'm hopeful that our kids problems can be solved by focusing on what we can do now...to make their lives better now...rather than focusing on the past. Can we give attention to developing solutions and helping our kids?
Do you think that fighting between us helps our kids in any way whatsoever? It doesn't. It hurts them.
I am committed to taking the high road and not thrusting our children in the middle of emotional crossfire. We wanted children, and now we have them. And I'm committed to focusing efforts on what our kids need most: consistency, assurance, and the love and participation of both parents in their lives. I'm asking for your help."
She may get pissed, but she's been pissed at everything I've had to say so far......no matter how many times I run it by you folks here and refine it. It was a heartfelt message with nothing but the absolute best of intentions.
Excellent letter, both in tone and content. Balls now back in her court. Be sure you are maintaining copies of your back and forth contact. It may come in handy some day.
Hang in there!
BTW, I found it interesting in her response about how "sweet" your S was to her, as if that is all that mattered. That just seemed very selfish and foolish. Does she not think for a second that your S might be manipulating things/her? And on top of that, your S should have been at the meeting and he wasn't and he couldn't be found. So, it doesn't sound like someone who is doing so well.
Wow Antlers! She is a real piece of work. And I think your communication has been very straight forward and totally about your son.
I like the last email the best. Why? Because it came directly from you. Without wasting time getting input from all of us. You see - although that's not a bad thing - it is better to respond from your heart and without delay all the time. Not a knee jerk reaction but the truth is - we don't walk in your shoes. We only know what you've told us. But we don't know all the innuendos and details as you do.
It's great to get ideas here but then use them to handle things your way.
So = GOOD FOR YOU!
Barb
antlers
I suggest trying to set a meeting up with the key players at school yourself to brainstorm about some behavioral interventions that you might try to help refocus son
invite your ex
she may or may not show
but at least you will get some help dealing with your son's behaviors
invite the school vice-principal
counselor
key teachers
express your concerns
ask for help
give any facts that might help them relate to son better
open that door to communication
get everyone you can on that same starting page
don't paint ex as the bad guy even if she is and even if she doesn't show up
there is no bad guy...there are only facts
son needs an adult to take some control
you be that adult
and of course son didn't want to go to that meeting...he was going to have to face the music...who WANTS to do that???
He was found, after 'my' meeting was over. He appeared in the office where his mother was waiting for 'her' meeting. He attended the second meeting with her.
Thank you Barb. I appreciate your comments. It's a heartbreaking situation, and she appears so full of hatred and resentment toward me that she's unwilling to do the right thing for our kids.
He was found, after 'my' meeting was over. He appeared in the office where his mother was waiting for 'her' meeting. He attended the second meeting with her.
Well isn't that convenient?!? Your S leaves the impression that he is the perfect kid as a show for your W. Wonder if they called him out on missing the meeting with you? If not, they should have.
Antlers: I like Fig's suggestion and totally agree. We KNOW that your ex is not going to do the right thing. I can relate (as many others here can). My ex did whatever was "all about him". I could not count on him for anything and that included what was best for the kids. So I always did and learned to keep "zero expectations" of him. However - having custody helped.
Get the school onside with you. Let them see that you are there and you are involved. Son needs to see this as well. Keep a record of what goes down. You might need that info in the future if you do have to go back to court regarding where son will live.
Just leave it be with ex now. You tried to get her support. She is not willing. Just don't let son fall through the cracks of the school system as a result of his indulged behaviour.
Barb
He was found, after 'my' meeting was over. He appeared in the office where his mother was waiting for 'her' meeting. He attended the second meeting with her.
Well isn't that convenient?!? Your S leaves the impression that he is the perfect kid as a show for your W. Wonder if they called him out on missing the meeting with you? If not, they should have.
They said that morning there would be consequences, but later on when they told me he was 'found', they led me to believe there would be none. I did question them as to why he was allowed to attend the meeting with his mom when he wasn't present for the meeting with me? They didn't respond...other than to say they wish it would have gone as they planned. His mother told me that son didn't want all of us to be in the same room at the same time, and that if she were as selfish as me that she would have gone along with what the school wanted!
I suggest trying to set a meeting up with the key players at school yourself to brainstorm about some behavioral interventions that you might try to help refocus son That's what this meeting was for! And she circumvented it.
invite your ex...she may or may not show...but at least you will get some help dealing with your son's behaviors...invite the school vice-principal...counselor...key teachers...express your concerns...ask for help...give any facts that might help them relate to son better...open that door to communication...get everyone you can on that same starting page She was invited, and she showed. The "team meeting" was all about opening the door to communication between us all and to get us all on the same page as a 'united front' to help my son and show him concern. All of the key players you mentioned were there. They expressed their concerns and I expressed mine. They asked for my help and I asked them for their continued efforts. This meeting was supposed to do everything you mentioned in your post...but it turned out the way it did.
don't paint ex as the bad guy even if she is and even if she doesn't show up
there is no bad guy...there are only facts...son needs an adult to take some control...you be that adult I have no intention of making her look bad; my intention has been stated clearly in many posts here and communications with her. I'm doing everything in reason that I can under the present circumstances.
Antlers: I like Fig's suggestion and totally agree. We KNOW that your ex is not going to do the right thing. I can relate (as many others here can). My ex did whatever was "all about him". I could not count on him for anything and that included what was best for the kids. So I always did and learned to keep "zero expectations" of him. However - having custody helped. It's a shame that she still has so much hatred and resentment toward me that it continues to affect our ability to do the right things for the benefit of our kids. She's "moved on" and has somebody else too. It'd sure be nice if things were otherwise. I still have hope that they can be.
Get the school onside with you. Let them see that you are there and you are involved. Son needs to see this as well. Keep a record of what goes down. You might need that info in the future if you do have to go back to court regarding where son will live. I've communicated a bunch with the school. They know the situation. I've got all of the e-mails and texts saved.
Just leave it be with ex now. You tried to get her support. She is not willing. Just don't let son fall through the cracks of the school system as a result of his indulged behaviour. It was an honest attempt, with the well-being of our kids THE priority.
so if your son was there for her meeting the it was really you and her that the son didn't want together since he participated in a meeting with all the key players and his mom
if this is the case then it appears that son has a problem communicating with you
no matter how passive/aggressively your obnoxious ex is putting it
maybe couples counseling with your son to learn how to communicate with him better?
It may have been to conveniently place blame on you or it may honestly be because he feels he can't be open and honest with you for whatever reason
be open to that possibility
offer a solution in going to therapy
"son..I was really looking forward to being able to tell you how much I love you and having you hear all the great things I think you are capable of. I feel like we have lost our ability to communicate and I know I need some help to do that better with you. I would like you to go to see xxx with me to help us learn to talk to each other again."
so if your son was there for her meeting then it was really you and her that the son didn't want together since he participated in a meeting with all the key players and his mom I think it's certainly possible. I also think it's possible that she didn't want to either.
if this is the case then it appears that son has a problem communicating with you Hard for me to imagine since we've lived together for over two years...but I won't discount that. It's certainly possible.
no matter how passive/aggressively your obnoxious ex is putting it She still has lots of anger and resentment.
maybe couples counseling with your son to learn how to communicate with him better? He sees a counselor now, and he refuses to talk to her. He just sits there. She said she has NEVER had a kid so completely unwilling to communicate.
It may have been to conveniently place blame on you or it may honestly be because he feels he can't be open and honest with you for whatever reason Either of those, or both of them, are certainly possible. Then again, it may be something else.
be open to that possibility I'm open to a lot of possibilities.
offer a solution in going to therapy It took nearly 3 years to get him to see the counselor he's seeing now. Counseling has been discouraged by his mother ever since all of this began over 3 years ago.
"son..I was really looking forward to being able to tell you how much I love you and having you hear all the great things I think you are capable of. I feel like we have lost our ability to communicate and I know I need some help to do that better with you. I would like you to go to see xxx with me to help us learn to talk to each other again." I like it. I'll probably modify it and send it to him later on today. Thank you.
"He sees a counselor now, and he refuses to talk to her. He just sits there. She said she has NEVER had a kid so completely unwilling to communicate."
A therapist friend of mine told me a story about a kid she was seeing who like your son, never said a word. Every week for 10 weeks that kid would come to her office and she would say hello and he would just star at her, never uttering a word.
Then one day, he says "can I ask you a question". Shocked, my friend says of course, anything. The kid then asks "are your eyebrows real?"
My friend busts out laughing and it was then that they were finally able to communicate.
This is a true story!!
Love that story 2t,
Antlers what happened to just backing off? Why all the machinations to control the results?
I mean, your son does not want to talk w/you right now and that seems clear.
I don't have a problem w/Figg's suggestion for a note to son, but just wonder what you're really achieving.
Get the info from the school and do what you can, get their help too, but
maybe stop trying to fix things with your family. They need professional help they are not getting,
and TIME.
THey do not believe you are a different man yet. Some of the machinations may support their perspective. Food for thought.
Antlers what happened to just backing off? Why all the machinations to control the results? I am backed off. I'm not asking him to come home, I'm not demanding that he come home, I'm just sending him an occasional text to let him know that I love him and am thinking about him. That's all. I'm not trying to control anything. He's getting into so much trouble at school that the school asked for a meeting with ALL of us, for his benefit...and it didn't go down the way the school had planned. That's all.
I mean, your son does not want to talk w/you right now and that seems clear. Crystal clear. He doesn't want to talk to his counselor either...she said that she's NEVER seen a child who absolutley refused to talk to the degree that he has, especially after all of their meetings. She's a LCSW.
I don't have a problem w/Figg's suggestion for a note to son, but just wonder what you're really achieving. My communication with him just lets him know what I mentioned earlier.
Get the info from the school and do what you can, get their help too, but
maybe stop trying to fix things with your family. They need professional help they are not getting,
and TIME. My relationship with my youngest daughter is going good. We communicate regularly and we see each other regularly. Relationship with son disintegrated after he lived with me exclusively for 2 and 1/2 years. Oldest daughter still ignores me.
THey do not believe you are a different man yet. Some of the machinations may support their perspective. Food for thought. What machinations? I have only done what the school asked of me. My youngest daughter knows how I am, and so does my son. Like I said...he's lived with me exclusively for 2 and 1/2 years. Oldest daughter and EX feel the way they do. I understand that.
25...
My concern is with the behaviors and school
obviously something is amiss and it can't go unchecked
someone needs to take control
not everyone can be son's friend in this scenerio
he is plummeting
someone needs to step up and be a parent
and if it makes everything he is being controling...who gves a flying f*ck
someone needs to try to save son from himself
working in the schools, I see far to many parents unwilling to be the parent because they want to be liked the best
sometimes it doesn't matter if they like you
it matters if they turn out to be a worthwhile productive citizen
they can like you later
they have plenty of friends their age
you are not their friend
you are their parent
I went long again today...rode 106.3 miles on my bicycle. I've been enjoying the heck outa these long a$$ rides. I'm finding some solace out there.
Plus those endorphins are marinating my grey matter. Endorphins rock.
figgeroni...all the things you said in your last post are correct. It's a bad situation.
I haven't heard a word from her since my last message to her on the 17th (which I posted here).
Two days ago while I was at work, I received the following message from the Vice Principal of my son's school...
"antlers:
Son has earned a 3 day suspension due to his getting up and leaving a classroom without permission and not attending or being tardy to 9th hour. He is now on Step 6 which results in a suspension. Normally he would be suspended for 5 to 10 days since he has been suspended earlier in the year, but he has not been suspended lately and therefore I will make it just 3 days this time. His behavior has been increasingly more defiant.
Son will be able to return to school on Thursday, March 1, 2012.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Vice Principal"
I also received this from the Counselor that comes out to the school every week to see him.....
"I spoke to Vice Principal recently and she mentioned son had been leaving his classes. She and school counselor also continue to express a lot of concern for son. He is failing at least two classes right now (I don’t remember which ones, but I know they were core classes). I saw son yesterday at school and he continues to be very resistant, and will not talk. He will barely mumble one word responses.
I hope you and Caleb’s mom consider seeking some psych testing for him. I believe he is severely depressed and wonder if something more might be going on, which I think the testing will shed some more light on. I hope Son's mother is starting to see how he is suffering at school and how it is imperative more extensive testing/evaluations be done. I even wonder if he may benefit from some sort of residential treatment such as Cedar Ridge or St. Anthony’s.
Feel free to call me to discuss this further,
Counselor"
Antlers: Copy this letter immediately to ex (and lawyers) if you have not already done so.
Barb
Hi Barb. I am concerned that she will show the letter to my son, and he will refuse to see the Counselor anymore. It is voluntary on his part right now. Any communication that I send to her, she shows to my kids. My daughter has repeatedly told me this.
I think you may need to take steps much further here - with or without ex. You may need to send him to an outreach place. Somwhere that he will get indepth counselling in a controlled situation. I think you need to have an intervention.
And laugh if you want to but if I were in your shoes - I'd write to Dr Phil. You have kind of blown off the courts here - but they made need to be involved.
There is no time to sit there and ask our advice - we are probably not qualified to make theses decisions for you or even to advise you best. You need to take control and take action. TODAY!
Barb
Not changing the subject, but out of the clear blue I just got this text from my youngest daughter.....
"I want you to know that your a really good dad. Im actually really lucky to have you. Your always nice to me and you always do stuff for me even when I don't deserve it. And usually you'll drop everything just to come get me for like an hour. I'm great full to have a dad as good as you.
Thanks."
Not changing the subject, but out of the clear blue I just got this text from my youngest daughter.....
"I want you to know that your a really good dad. Im actually really lucky to have you. Your always nice to me and you always do stuff for me even when I don't deserve it. And usually you'll drop everything just to come get me for like an hour. I'm great full to have a dad as good as you.
Thanks."
Antlers - you have no idea how much this ^^^ warms my heart! You have to know that if your D feels this way, that your S will eventually come around. They talk and she is clearly in your corner. Just hang in there!
I'd also copy and paste this into a word document and print for frequent viewing. It has to make you feel so good!
If you are still the custodial parent, then now is the time to really use that...get your son into a treatment program while you are still able to.
he is a minor
you are the parent and can mandate that he attends a treatment program as the counselor suggested
and as the custodial parent
your rights supercede those of your ex-wife in this scenerio
line it up, get him in, let his mom know as he is being transported there, let the courts know it was recommended by the counselor at school
being a parent is tough work and breaks your heart sometimes
I forwarded the message the Vice Principal sent me to my sons mother. She later said that she had received it too.
I also forwarded the message the counselor sent me to my sons mother. I've received no word from her yet since then.
It's going about the same. Lots of physical activity on my days off...I've rode everyday for the past 3 days; back to work tomorrow. But I'm even going to the gym after working in the ER for 12 hours. Physical activity 7 days a week. I guess it's my therapy...my medicine. Still doing good with youngest daughter...NUTHIN' from son or oldest daughter.
I've been thinking about some stuff lately...how fuked up things turned out. I read on another thread here recently of a LBS who was hurt and wondered when his hurt could be addressed. A WAS spoke up and said that was sort of like wanting to bring up the fact that your W "hit you back." That resonated with me. I thought about it a long time, and later sent her this.....
Ex, I'm sorry that I hurt you before and during our marriage. I know my behavior caused you emotional pain. I know my behavior was a violation of our marriage vows. I had no right to treat you and the kids like I did. I had no excuse for treating you and the kids like I did. You had every right to be angry with me. I will not be making those mistakes ever again. I know you still have a heart, even though I did some damage to it. I'm so sorry; I deeply regret ever having hurt you. - antlers
I'm not backsliding, or pursuing. I just felt motivated to convey some things to her. Almost a day later I also sent her this.....
Regarding our kids...I know that the absolute best thing that a man can do for his children is to love their mother. I regret very much that I didn't show that. You were the best thing that ever happened to me...and I blew it. I will not be making those mistakes ever again. I apologize for taking you for granted. - antlers
I just wanted to acknowledge some things to her, hopefully for her benefit. I wanted to be decent and honest...regardless of anything else. That's it.
well regardless of your goals (or how SHE will see them)...you have said enough.
Don't write anymore b/c there is nothing left to say about your past.
Stick to the "NOW" and future plans for the kids.
Please, say no more to your ex w about what you feel now about the past or what you felt then, or anymore about it.
If I tell you all the reasons I feel this way, you will engage in the details of it and defend or argue, I think. So you'll lose sight of the forest for the trees.
But what is left to say about the past? ("NOTHING" is the answer)
Be here now.
((( )))
well regardless of your goals (or how SHE will see them)...you have said enough.
I agree. I have said enough. I've got to stop holding on to the bad feelings for the damage I did. I do believe that I've made some real progress in 4 months time. I think about the analogy of the guy who was texting, or drinking, while driving and killed someone. What's he supposed to do? Kill himself? Or live? And do better?
Don't write anymore b/c there is nothing left to say about your past.
I agree there too. There's nothing left to say. But there is something left to do...live, and do better! I don't know what else I could do!
Stick to the "NOW" and future plans for the kids.
My youngest daughter and I communicate daily. She's the only one who shows any interest in me. I'm putting forth much effort to foster that relationship. She's wild though...and runs around unbridled. I worry about her.
Please, say no more to your ex w about what you feel now about the past or what you felt then, or anymore about it. I don't intend to. It would serve no useful purpose. I just had some stuff I felt like I needed to express and I did. Every once in a while, I still am sort of overcome by remorse for what aa awful emotionally abusive person I was...but that happens with less frequency now.
If I tell you all the reasons I feel this way, you will engage in the details of it and defend or argue, I think. Nope, don't think so 25. There's nothing to defend...and I sure as hell am done arguing with anybody about anything. I am always interested in your feedback though. So you'll lose sight of the forest for the trees. I don't think so. My mind is more open than its ever been. I'm sure interested in learning more, and in gaining new insights.
But what is left to say about the past? ("NOTHING" is the answer)
Agreed. I hope I get a second chance on down the line with someone else...so I can do better and apply the knowledge that I now have, and the experience that I now have. I will definitely do much better. If it happens, I'll love and cherish her like I should.
Be here now. putting forth more and more effort daily to do just that. God I wanna live and not just exist.
((( )))
25...I tried to like you post but there was no like button up in here
25...I tried to like you post but there was no like button up in here
thanks Fig...and I'd like to have the "edit" button back, even if it only lasts one minute, AND I'd love to have private messages too, even if just to say "Look at my thread". Like just a "Fig is looking for you" type b/c
I know of maybe 10 people (or 10 times this happened) that wanted me to post on their threads so they asked me to post...
on their thread!!!
it's a miracle I found any of them, and I"m sure I missed many more, or so I hear.
I saw ONE person who posted in the subject topic space, and I happened to see it with the "new topics". Also had someone stalk me here to track me down and ask for a review of her sitch. Seems inefficient.
Got any ideas about that Fig? You're a long time vet here. Come to think of it, as far as I know that makes you & me and Sandi, and Jack3B who go way back, and I did see "Was2Sad" a month or so ago. (OMGod - that man helped me.)
I wish more "graduates" would stop by and give back.
But for NOW, it's us!
Anyhow, now I'm rambling. Just wanted to say "thanks" & hope we can get some others to stop by.
((( )))
I know where you're coming from Gineen, and I understand it and agree with you. I do not want to feel the urge to express any of this anymore to her. I've just had some stuff on my mind recently and I felt the need to communicate it. I said exactly what I felt, and now I don't need to communicate it anymore.
I know she knows my feelings. My focus is coparenting. Our kids are my top concern. I don't want to fight with her about anything, at all, ever. I honestly am not looking for forgiveness from her. I have in the past...but not anymore. That won't happen, and I'm OK with that. She sees forgiving me as giving me a clean slate...and she's not going to do that. And that's OK. I don't want to drive her away...I just want to coparent our kids.
Hey 25 - don't forget me! I have been here longer than most anyone. 10 years on last Nov 2. I have had to change my sign in name twice, though and that changed my date of joining. But I know who I am - LOL! Should be some kind of badge at the 10 year mark - or control over those buttons - LIKE, EDIT, PRIVATE MESSAGE, PERSONAL INFO etc.
Antlers - I agree with the others. You have said the same thing to ex many times. She is NOT listening. If you need to say it for YOU - write it down - but don't send it. It does not help you situation.
And what have you done regarding getting more help for him?
Barb
Antlers - I agree with the others. You have said the same thing to ex many times. She is NOT listening. If you need to say it for YOU - write it down - but don't send it. It does not help you situation.
And what have you done regarding getting more help for him?
She's involved hot n' heavy with other guy. He was up here all weekend per my daughter. She offered that info. when I picked her up today. We went out to eat, then I took her out in the country and let her drive my vehicle for 60 miles. There is no 'helping' this situation. It's done. I did it simply because I'm a decent man, at least now, and I wanted to express it. That's all. She might not even have read it. Anyway, I gotta continue to let go of all the negative emotions and feelings. Feel like I've done OK in 4 months time. It's like climbing up a shale mountain...3 steps forward and 1 step back. Overall there's forward progress though, even if there is an occasional step back.
Regarding my son, I don't know if he'll ever come home. No communication from him at all...not one word. I do forward everything I receive from the school and his counselor to her. My youngest daughter told me today that she doesn't think he needs counselling and that I should take him out. She also told me that she was very pissed at me when she found out I put him in counselling, and that's why she wrote me that awful letter back in December. It's a fuked up situation. The kids are running wild, especially daughter. She stays out very late with older young men, either roaming around, hanging out at their house, or driving around in their car. She sneaks her boyfriend in her house when her moms not there. And he stayed over there till 3:30 in the morning over the weekend while my ex was preoccupied with her company. Incidentally, her lawyer wrote into our divorce decree that "no member of the opposite sex that the parent is not married to shall be allowed to stay overnight in the home while the kids are present". Other guy comes up from out of state and stays overnight at her house for days at a time regularly while my kids are there.
Antlers: You are divorced! Your wife can have a boyfriend. No - he probably should not be staying over but he is. But that is not the real problem. You told us terrible things that were going on with your son. It sounded desperate yet you are not doing anything to get him the help he needs. Obviously your ex is not going to do it.
And what are you doing about your daughter? Are you talking to her about her bad choices? Or are you afraid you are going to lose her too? It sounds like that is why you are backing off on your son.
This situation is messed up but doing nothing is not the answer.
Barb
if she is violating the order...call her on it in court
and for God sakes
you said somewhere (I forgot to do the quote thing) that you didn't want to have to tell her that stuff again
newsflash
you don't HAVE to tell her that stuff
sometimes
we can filter ourselves and not tell someone everything that crosses through our hearts and minds
really...it's OK to not tell her these things
back off for a bit
focus on being a parent
I know I'm divorced Barb. I know she can have a boyfriend. I even told her recently.....
"Ex, I'm happy that you found love again. After all, you are someone who has meant a lot in my life, and you're the mother of my children. I want happiness and love for you. antlers"
My point is that she is violating a court order that her attorney put in our decree. That's all. I do have him seeing a licensed counselor, and I even caught hell for it yesterday from my daughter when we were spending time together. She said he doesn't need it and I should take him out.
I talk with my daughter, but it has little effect. It is s fuked up mess.
Backing off is, I believe, good advice. I've said how I feel. She knows how I feel. It doesn't matter.
I miss having an emotional connection. I feel so lonely.
I woke up at 3 this morning. Saw I had a text from son sent at 2:15 this morning (school night). It's the first communication I've received from him since he left on Jsn. 11th.....
"Can u set all of my Abercrombie clothes somewhere so I can get because they all to small for me now and I wanna sell them"
Here's the short exchange that followed.....
Me - you still up?
Him - yeah
Me - I miss ya' son.
Him -
Me - Don't you have to get up in like 4 hours to get ready for school?
Him -
Me - Well, it was nice talkin' to ya' son. At least I got a "yeah" out of ya'! 😜
Him -
Me - Goodnight. I love you son, and I think about you every day.
Him -
Me - Son, I feel like us not communicating with each other is bad for both of us...and I'd sure like it if you and I started communicating with each other again.
Him - Please stop texting me. Don't respond
Me - :-(
Him -
Me - I don't know why you're being this way to me.........
But I still love you.
That was it.
Heartbreaking.
Venting.....
I feel sad. I know, I know! I've hurt over my ex enough already. Unfortunately, knowing she is in a serious relationship opens wounds....no matter how 'good' I felt l was doing.
I never though my life would be so fuked up at nearly 51. I don't even know what to think or feel anymore...about anything. I called in the last 2 days and went to the gym instead of work. Physical activity is the only solace I can find these days. I'm so fukin' sick of hurting.
More venting.....
Right now, I wish I would just die. I never thought my life would be so fuked up at nearly 51. I've made changes and become a better man...to no avail. My son hates me, my oldest daughter hates me, my ex (the only woman I ever truly loved) hates me, and my youngest daughter just says or does whatever's necessary in any given situation to get what she wants (I do believe that she loves me though). I'm strugglin'.
I know our emotions are volatile, and can change drastically depending on circumstances.....but damn!
Antlers: I am really sorry that you are hurting. You seem to be in a bad place despite the repeated pronouncements that you are in a better place. And please stop with the FUK statements here and on other people's threads. In 10 years I don't ever rmember anyone using it as an adjective all the time. It is unpleasant.
But your actions and your words don't match up. You are obviously really angry and upset about "other guy" yet you say you get that she is divorced and can do this and it is only about the court order. Yet you won't go to a lawyer about it. Reading it - it is about much more than any court order.
"Stop Texting" is the right advice just as your son said. He makes his first contact and you go off on him about being up on a school night? Are you kidding??? Couldn't you just oblige his request and that would have made him happy with you - not angry.
You are continuing to wallow. It is good to vent here but I don't think it is enough. Are you still seeing a counselor regularly? If not - make an appt - a professional can offer much more. And are you on ADs??? I am not a fan of them personally but they have helped many people who have been angry and depressed.
And how does once "catch Hell" from their daughter? You are the adult here. Don't let the kids call the shots. He obviously needs counselling (& in my opinion, a lot more - like a special program as previously suggested).
I think you need a more "balanced" approach to everything. Much less messaging and much more backing off and giving space while taking care of you. Letting them see changes in you when the opportunities arise. You seem to get stuck in these holes of despair. We've all been there but eventually we started climbing out.
Are you in any social groups? I honestly thing that being around other people will help you. Divorce Recovery? Hobby? Church? You are physically active - so that is good but try something with a group - not just alone. And try going a month without contacting the family members directly (except maybe youngest daughter). They have asked you not to - you'd be surprised - they might notice if you are not constantly contacting them.
I know you are hurting and you don't need a bashing but I can't think of any other way to help.
Please take care of YOU!
Barb
Antlers: I am really sorry that you are hurting. You seem to be in a bad place despite the repeated pronouncements that you are in a better place. And please stop with the FUK statements here and on other people's threads. In 10 years I don't ever rmember anyone using it as an adjective all the time. It is unpleasant. I am struggling with some stuff right now Barb. I'm in a bad place right now. I have felt good when I've mentioned it here though. But I've also seen how volatile our emotions can be, you can truly be feeling good one minute, then experience a setback, and then feel miserable. You can also feel truly miserable, then have something good happe, and then feel a lot better. So I have seen and experienced how volatile emotions can be based upon the circumstances. I apologise for my use here of the profane word that you referred to. I won't use it here again.
But your actions and your words don't match up. You are obviously really angry and upset about "other guy" yet you say you get that she is divorced and can do this and it is only about the court order. Yet you won't go to a lawyer about it. Reading it - it is about much more than any court order. Barb, I'm hurt more than anything else I feel. I'm not angry at her or her significant other. I'm hurt. I've only been at this letting go stuff for a little over 4 months. I do feel I've made progress. Nonetheless, sometimes I still hurt, and sometimes I experience setbacks. I am divorced. She can and does have a significant other. Sometimes, like yesterday and today...the thought of that hurts. I don't think her violation of that particular court order is good for my kids...for obvious reasons. I am concerned about them. I wouldn't do it. Not because it's a court order, but because it's not in my kids best interests. I don't want to go to a lawyer. I know you and fig don't agree with that, but my experience with the legal system has been atrocious. I never want to be involved in it again. I'm hurt. Not angry. I am only angry that my life is in such shambles, and it's mostly my fault. I'm not angry at her or him though...just hurt. I have been doing better with it, but I've experienced a setback.
"Stop Texting" is the right advice just as your son said. He makes his first contact and you go off on him about being up on a school night? Are you kidding??? Couldn't you just oblige his request and that would have made him happy with you - not angry. I never thought about it that way Barb. I guess because I didn't feel like I was going off on him. He could have taken it that way. Or if he was on the computer or playing x-box, he could have simply been aggravated at getting multiple texts, as I've seen him do many times at home. I thought, maybe incorrectly, that since he did at least respond to my initial text, that we could have a dialogue. But he didn't even respond when I told him that I missed him...and that was 'before' I commented on how late it was. I really don't know if he meant 'stop texting me right now, while I'm preoccupied with what I'm doing'...or if he meant 'stop texting me anymore at all, peroid'.
You are continuing to wallow. It is good to vent here but I don't think it is enough. Are you still seeing a counselor regularly? If not - make an appt - a professional can offer much more. And are you on ADs??? I am not a fan of them personally but they have helped many people who have been angry and depressed. sometimes I get mired down. I don't like it and I know it's unhealthy. But setbacks sometimes happen. Venting here and getting feedback helps a lot Barb. I've had regular counselling for months at a time two different times. Recently finished up latest one last month. I've exhausted insurance benefits for now. I was on I was on AD's for two years after she moved out. They lessened the severity of the peaks and valleys. They helped, but after two years my doctor said I needed to be off of them...so I got off. Don't want to start them again. I'm just going through a rough patch right now. Lots of circumstances and lots of emotions. I'm not angry at her. Or him. If I'm angry at anything, it's my life and how it is right now. I'm not even angry at me anymore...just my life.
And how does once "catch Hell" from their daughter? You are the adult here. Don't let the kids call the shots. He obviously needs counselling (& in my opinion, a lot more - like a special program as previously suggested). She told md yesterday she wrote me that awful letter back in Decrmber after she found out about me putting son in counselling. She said it made her very mad. She told me yesterday that he doesn't need it and I should take him out. I explained my rationale and feelings about it to her, but she was unreceptive to it. I agree that he needs it. Take a peek at that letter and you'll see how she feels about him going to counselling.
I think you need a more "balanced" approach to everything. Much less messaging and much more backing off and giving space while taking care of you. Letting them see changes in you when the opportunities arise. You seem to get stuck in these holes of despair. We've all been there but eventually we started climbing out. I agree Barb that I need a 'different' approach to everything, balanced or whatever. OK...I'll stop text messaging as much and start backing off even more...and giving even more space. And I'll try to take care of me even more. I hope opportunities will arise under those circumstances for them to see more good changes in me. You're right, I do get stuck in holes of despair. I'm in one now. I'll do OK for a while, even pretty good under the circumstances, and then I'll suffer a setback. Despair. I think I've done some climbing out, despite the despair I sometimes feel when I suffer a setback. Question...should I stop texting my youngest daughter as much and give her even more space too? Is texting my son and oldest daughter once a week OK? Or do you recommend something different? I usually text with my youngest daughter daily.
Are you in any social groups? I honestly thing that being around other people will help you. Divorce Recovery? Hobby? Church? You are physically active - so that is good but try something with a group - not just alone. And try going a month without contacting the family members directly (except maybe youngest daughter). They have asked you not to - you'd be surprised - they might notice if you are not constantly contacting them.I have a group of friends that I ride with. They're mostly married women and we all really are a good group. I'm around others at work, but that's about all of my social groups. I agree that being around others helps. I haven't checked in to any other groups. One of my friends always invites me to church but I never go. My wife and kids went there a few times when my oldest daughter got baptised there. I'm very physically active, especially for a geeser of 50. The riding season arrives next month and there will be charity riding events nearly every weekend off...I'll be riding those with my friends. So you're recommending a month without contacting my son or oldest daughter? It'll be the first time I've ever done that. What about youngest daughter. What should I do there?
I know you are hurting and you don't need a bashing but I can't think of any other way to help. I am going through a rough time right now. I am hurting. But I think it's the nature of this stuff...you don't just get over it and 'that's it'. There is progress and setbacks, more progress and setbacks...but the overall movement is mostly forward, and that's a positive thing. I don't mind a bashing, and I do appreciate your help. Thank you. I will take your advice.
Please take care of YOU! I'll put forth more effort to do just that. The wind [censored] here today so I went to the gym. I'm coming up on 45 miles on this trainer this morning. Ive been lifting this morning too. That's all good stuff.
More problems concerning my son. I'm posting this e-mail that I received from Vice Principal yesterday regarding my son. I'm just heartbroken over the situation. He just got back last Thursday from being suspended, and he got in more trouble the very next day which resulted in this suspension! I continue to try to encourage his mother for she and I to work together to help our son, but I continue to get no cooperation from her.
- antlers
"Ex and antlers:
Due to son's continued defiant and disruptive behavior in several of his classes on Friday, I will be suspending him for 5 days.
Hopefully son will be able to re-direct his behavior.
--
Assistant Principal"
I forwarded it to her yesterday, as I've been doing with all communication I get from the school...even if I know they sent it to her too. I just preface it by saying "I just wanted to make sure you got this too". She sent back a "Yes I know".
I've been thinking about sending her another communication encouraging cooperation concerning our kids.
Antlers
You need to stop trying to be friends with your kids
You are the parent here
it doesn't matter if your kids like you or not because you have to do what is important to get them out of this crap
if you have parental custody of them, now is the time to commit your son to the treatment program mentioned by the school counselor
now is the time to stop being manipulated by your daughter
now is the time to pull your parent panties up and get to work
no more wallowing
time to get to work
you have let it go this long
you lost the oppportunity to text with your son when he texted you by repeatedly texting him back and adding sad faces etc...you are an adult for God's sake...you don't beg for your son's responses
step up and be the parent even if they don't like it and even if they get mad
you have custody
you have that power for now
use it
Hi fig.
I DO NOT have parental custody of them. We have JOINT custody of our kids.
I texted my son back, repeatedly, because I thought that since he texted me, maybe we could get a dialogue going. I tried.
I DO NOT have custody.
I DO NOT have that power.
It's a difficult situation. I DO appreciate your input and feedback, along with those from whoever contributes. BTW, the courts here allow children who are teenagers to come and go between parents whenever they feel like it, and to stay with whichever parent they want to.....regardless of any court decision/ruling.
I continue to be hopeful that time, and persistence on my part, will ultimately be successful in encouraging my ex to cooperate with me in doing what is truly best for our kids.
Well said fig
Took the words right put of my mouth.
I'm getting too frustrated to post. Enough about the excuses. Do something. For someone who tells his ex he wants her to be happ with new guy - you don't seem to feel that way really.
Cut the contact & do what needs to be done. Actions & words news to match up here. Stop asking for advice without heeding all the great advice you've been given already
Barb
so no more texts to your son, even the nice ones telling him you love him. At most, one w/the word "love" on it would have sufficed. I'd feel smothered if I got that many texts from someone I was angry with. Plus you ignored what he asked of you...entirely.
It is hard for me to grasp his anger without you admitting any problems. I don't believe a kid that age can be "turned against" a parent by the other one, and besides, he was living with You...
You can pretend it's ALL about having no rules at his mom's, but he has had problems when he lived with you as well. Anyhow...
As for the counselling, it's not YOUR counselor he sees, it's a c
the school suggested, right? Didn't the school require him to do "something" to show effort? Let your d know THAT...and how can counselling hurt him?
If it is all rehashing the past, or reliving the traumas all over again, your son may have a point. You may not recall all the things that happened to him if you were drinking or enraged.
Antlers ---No more "encouraging" the wife to "work together". She said NO. So Just forward the info and don't attach a note about how you wanted to make sure she had it...you send it in case you have to go to court and it shows you were communicating with her.
The rest of the words are all pursuit. And they sound as if you are coaching her on parenting and that infuriates her. She has a point. Let it go. Don't do what does not help...DB 101.
Lastly, I am frustrated by the frequent claim that this is all "new" to you b/c you "only let go" 4 months ago. The fact that you resisted so long, isn't a defense to changing so slowly overall.
Back off...and then back off some more.
THAT would show some change.
Do you get what I'm saying?
I am sorry you feel so low right now. Seems you believe 4 months of changing some things, which they have not seen much of b/c of all the texts and drama with son, makes you feel entitled to
reciprocity of some sort, and soon
or at least something better than what you are getting. Maybe in time.
What IS new in this is that you say you are changing. Okay I'll buy that.
But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.
The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing.
If they say "don't text" - then don't...
Antlers, How is the counselling YOU are getting, working out?
And what are your GAL activities? You MUST MUST MUST meet new people. Don't tell me you are too busy and make me get out my Alaskan list of GAL b/c you will embarass yourself. IF I could GAL THERE...you can wherever you are.
really!
Well said fig
Took the words right put of my mouth.
I'm getting too frustrated to post. Enough about the excuses. Do something. For someone who tells his ex he wants her to be happ with new guy - you don't seem to feel that way really.
Cut the contact & do what needs to be done. Actions & words news to match up here. Stop asking for advice without heeding all the great advice you've been given already
Barb
It is well said, and under circumstances different from mine, one might be able to do just that. Frustrated? I'm frustrated too! I feel I'm doing all I can do 'under these particular' circumstances. Facts are "excuses" to some who aren't involved or aware of the particulars here...that's NOT to say that I don't appreciate input. I do! I don't understand how you can deduce that I don't feel the way I say I do regarding her happiness. Cutting the contact seems prudent...doing "what needs to be done" is easier said than done in this particular instance. Do you doubt that I love my son? Do you not think that I'd do anything that I thought I could in order to help him? Really! I'm certainly not mad at you folks who offer advice...on the contrary, I appreciate the feedback/advice more than you know. But I feel some of you get frustrated/mad at me if I don't heed it. It is not a cut and dried situation. There are particulars to this situation that are different from others. Those have to be taken into consideration. They're not excuses. They're facts. I don't like it anymore than you guys do. The best action that I can see here, now, today is...since I've already done all I can to encourage her cooperation (and she's refused so far)...to just back off. Stop texting her, and stop texting him (even though my counselor has continually told me that I need to stay in touch with him). I've got so many well intentioned people telling me things that are completely opposite of each other that I myself don't know what to do! If advice from different well intentioned people is 180 degrees completely opposite of the advice from other well intentioned people, as I believe everyone involved is...then I confess...I'm pretty confused about what the best course of action is!
So you're not going to do anything?
so no more texts to your son, even the nice ones telling him you love him. At most, one w/the word "love" on it would have sufficed. I'd feel smothered if I got that many texts from someone I was angry with. Plus you ignored what he asked of you...entirely.
OK. I've been doing what my counselor advised me to do, "stay in touch". But I'll stop. After not hearing from him for 7 weeks I thought we might be able to have a dialogue at that time, since he texted me. I was wrong. I had no idea my 4 or 5 short texts would 'smother' him. I was trying to reestablish our emotional connection. As far as setting out all of his Abercrombie & Fitch clothes that I bought for him so he could "sell them"...that's not gonna happen. It is hard for me to grasp his anger without you admitting any problems. I don't believe a kid that age can be "turned against" a parent by the other one, and besides, he was living with You...
When have I not admitted any problems? I've been posting problems on this board since 2009...about me, about my kids, about our situation, and about everything it involves. I've not denied anything I've done or been responsible for. I've been brutally honest, especially about my failures and shortcomings. He has much anger and resentment regarding the dissolution of his family. Yep, he was living with me when he left to go to his moms. He didn't have hardly anything to do with his mom for a period of 2 years. A kid that age, especially one with emotional problems, can certainly be turned against his parent. My daughter told me that any text I send to her mother, she immediately lets her read it, and now that my son is there, she lets him read it too. What do you think her intentions are by doing that? If I send her a text because my son got suspended from school, and the very next day after he was allowed back he got suspended again...and I voice my concern to her and say that he needs help...and she lets him read it...what do you suppose her intentions are? I don't show them what she sends me. When she texted me derogatory comments about my daughter after our last court appearance...I did not show them to my daughter. Even though it would have been easy to hand her my phone and say "here's what your mom thinks about you". It would have been wrong. You can pretend it's ALL about having no rules at his mom's, but he has had problems when he lived with you as well. Anyhow...
He certainly did have problems (which I described earlier above) when he lived with me, but he also had some structure. He also had some consequences for bad behavior. He would test me, and he didn't like it when he was told 'no', or I didn't let him have his way, or if he got grounded. He was and is an emotional wreck...due to the depression and anger he feels. As for the counselling, it's not YOUR counselor he sees, it's a c
the school suggested, right? Didn't the school require him to do "something" to show effort? Let your d know THAT...and how can counselling hurt him?
His school counselor and his vice principal strongly recommended professional counseling for him, so I followed their recommendation. I need to let my daughter know that...that it wasn't just me who decided to put him in counseling. Counseling can't hurt him. She's 15, and she's pretty wild, and she has her own opinions about stuff...even if some of them are very wrong.If it is all rehashing the past, or reliving the traumas all over again, your son may have a point. You may not recall all the things that happened to him if you were drinking or enraged.
I NEVER was a drinker. I was emotionally abusive, resentful, and angry. And I've admitted that from day 1. His professional counselor doesn't want to rehash the past, or relive any trauma. She just wants to help him with his anger and depression. She's trying to get him to simply talk, about whatever he wants to, but he so far refuses. Everyone on the other side of the family sent him derogatory communications about counseling after they found out about it...and they found out about it at the very beginning. They did instill negative conno0tations about it from the get go. He told my brother at the beginning that he didn't mind going, he just wanted people to leave him alone about it. But he is still worked on about it to this day. Antlers ---No more "encouraging" the wife to "work together". She said NO. So Just forward the info and don't attach a note about how you wanted to make sure she had it...you send it in case you have to go to court and it shows you were communicating with her.
OK. I get that. She's made it clear...much to my dismay. I'll continue to forward everything without anything that I have to say attached to it. I won't say anything. I'll just forward stuff. Darn shame though that she still puts her resentment toward me on a higher priority that what is best for our kids. She IS doing that. And I've honestly tried to get her to see that. The rest of the words are all pursuit. And they sound as if you are coaching her on parenting and that infuriates her. She has a point. Let it go. Don't do what does not help...DB 101.
Encouraging cooperation for the sake of the kids is pursuit? I've changed wording, run it by folks here, done everything I know to do so the RIGHT message would come across...but it's not only pursuing, it's "coaching" her on parenting? I don't want to do what does not help. But in this case it seems that genuine concern for the well-being of our kids does not help! And is pursuing! And is coaching her on parenting! I'm at a loss. I admit it. Lastly, I am frustrated by the frequent claim that this is all "new" to you b/c you "only let go" 4 months ago. The fact that you resisted so long, isn't a defense to changing so slowly overall.
I'm frustrated too sometimes that I'm not 'healed' in 4 months. I do feel like I've made progress in those 4 months, as slow as it's been. I did resist a long, long time. I commented about it once, and you said that if you looked back and saw that you messed up for holding on for too long...you'd rather make the mistake of holding on for too long...as opposed to letting go too soon. I agreed. It resonated with me. If I was wrong for doing that, then I was just wrong. I am doing my best to continue to make forward progress. I still mess up. I still have setbacks. But I am trying to continue to move forward. Back off...and then back off some more.
THAT would show some change.
I get that. I think that's the best advice under these circumstances. It's contrary to what my counselor has told me, but I still think it's best. Do you get what I'm saying?
YES I DO. I am sorry you feel so low right now. Seems you believe 4 months of changing some things, which they have not seen much of b/c of all the texts and drama with son, makes you feel entitled to
reciprocity of some sort, and soon
or at least something better than what you are getting. Maybe in time.
I understand that completely. I feel pretty lonely. Seems like, to you, backing off...and backing off some more, and time...those are the keys. Those are the answers. What IS new in this is that you say you are changing. Okay I'll buy that.
But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.
I am. Slowly but surely. I understand, again, completely what you're saying here. And again I hear you saying that backing off...and backing off some more, and time...those are the keys. Those are the answers.The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing.
That's not my intention...where before, it was. I can see how they might still see it that way though. If they say "don't text" - then don't...
OK Antlers, How is the counselling YOU are getting, working out?
Well, a lot of it is completely contrary to what I'm being advised to do here on this board. I'm kinda confused but, the main thing is to not do what doesn't work. That makes sense to me. And what are your GAL activities? You MUST MUST MUST meet new people. Don't tell me you are too busy and make me get out my Alaskan list of GAL b/c you will embarass yourself. IF I could GAL THERE...you can wherever you are.
Right now I've lost myself in physical activities. There are a good number of people that I ride road bikes and mountain bikes with. Some of them I consider pretty good friends. They're mostly all married women. I've been taking some long road rides with friends, and even longer ones when I'm by myself. Two of them recently have been 105 miles and 106 miles respectively. And we'll ride anywhere from 10 to 40 miles on the trails on mountain bikes. And I go to the gym and ride the trainer and do some lifting after working my 12 hour shifts in the ER. And on days off when the weather or the wind are too bad for riding...I go to the gym on those days too. I haven't been doing many other things...except for some climbing and hiking in the mountains when I feel like doing those things. really!
One other thing 25, my youngest daughter and I have eaten lunch together for the past 3 days. She told me when my son was suspended, one of her friends came over to hang out with him when he was alone at his mom's house for those days that he was suspended. This boy is one year older than my son, he's in my daughters grade and used to go to school with her before he got kicked out of school for the year...for getting caught multiple times skipping class to smoke weed. His other friend that comes over to hang out with him and run around late at night got arrested yesterday for stealing laptops from a friends house. My son has NO supervision at all anymore. None. My niece who is 26 got a call from him very late the other night, on a school night, to see if she could give him a ride from where he was (not home) to somewhere else. He is basically 'running wild'. When the teachers at our failed team meeting at the school found out from me that my son was running around with the boy who got arrested...they all got an immediate look of dismay on their faces, and voiced their concerns...because they are all familiar with him. He is kicked out of school for the entire year also. And was the year before that too.
My daughter runs with a rough crowd also. Those are the words her mother used when she ran away recently. When I told her mom that very thing back in December, she accused me of fabricating that "lie". My daughter texted me over the weekend and said she was "cruising" with 4 other hispanic boys (one of them 20) and was in a neighboring town. She told me today that the 20 year old called her at 3 o'clock this morning. She admitted that her mother was "at home with Steve" while she was out late with this bunch. My daughter's boyfriend was over at her house until 3:30 in the morning last Saturday night (per my daughter). She said her mom and 'Steve' were in her bedroom. It is truly a messed up situation. My kids are running wild. Neither of them have any supervision. My daughter says her mom is gone all the time.
My concern for my kids is genuine. And my effort to get cooperation from their mom regarding their well being was genuine also.
So you're not going to do anything?
I'm still thinking about what 'to do' or what 'not to do' under these particular circumstances.
Antlers, I just want to add my own thoughts.
First, is it possible that what your HAVE BEEN doing (regarding your W as wells as your kids) is not working?
If you think it is working (just refer to the results and if there are any negative aspects to things) then keep doing what you are doing.
If you feel things ARE NOT working, then it is time to change what you are doing. How ever that may look.
Like you, my kids are with my W during the week. I am concerned right now about my D14. I do not have any evidence and do not currently expect her to be skipping or things like that. But I do not doubt that as she gets older, there may be a desire to skip classes and hang at the empty house (when W is at work) with her friends. She has already had one (knbown) incident with pot and has likely dabbled in alcohol, as well. My W has also left D14 to her own designs for the most part, in the evenings... and on weekends when my W is out with her own friends.
Anyhow, the point is... what would I do if my W were unwilling to discipline or restrict. And I would have to say that, regardless of whether my D14 hated me for it or not, I would seek legal counsel and perhaps have mandatory supervision required for her in those situations.
So again, to paraphrase 25's motto in her sig...
"Would you rather be your kid's friend... or their parent...?"
This is about the current future and well being of your child(ren), regardless of whether they feel you are somehow ruining their lives.
If you feel things ARE NOT working, then it is time to change what you are doing. How ever that may look.
Even if it 'looks' like I'm not doing anything?
I'm pondering what 25 said.....
"Back off...and then back off some more. THAT would show some change.
But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.
The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing."
Everyone here is giving you great advice. 25 is referring to backing off on texting/communicating because it seems that is more for YOU than for them.
But don't back off on getting your son into the program the school suggested. Doing NOTHING is far worse in this situation. Worrying about how your daughter feels about it is absolutely no excuse to DO NOTHING.
By doing NOTHING - you are condoning your son's behaviour even if you don't agree with it. If he were my son - I'd go over there and haul his ass straight into the school and arrange the program from there. I would take ACTION.
You can disagree and write on here till the cows come home but if you don't take action - who will? Obviously not your ex.
And seriously - when I said that your words and actions don't match - I am talking about telling your wife you wish her love again. Then agonize over the new guy and how he is sleeping over etc. That makes the words seem insincere. I can honestly say that I'm not wishing my ex and maggot "love". I just don't care any more but I won't go that far.
But anyway - I post because of your children. To continue to tell us about it but do nothing is what is so frustrating. No - we are not there but then - you are. And you are the one who needs to step in and take ACTION. NOW!
Barb
you can call child protective services
you can call the police and have your son and daughter and friends arrested and charges filed against them for possesion and smoking pot if you know they are doing it
once charged
you can request they attended court mandated treatment
bring in school reports to help back you up
cut a deal with the prosecutor
I have helped parents do it several times
call the school and tell them you suspect he is using
they can test him
(most schools can at least)
if he is dirty...treatment
you are NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT their friend and if they are pissed at you for a long time...so be it
save your children antlers
and don't worry about saving some sort of emotional attachment with them
my parents saved me
my life was more important than if I loved them for a year or not
And seriously - when I said that your words and actions don't match - I am talking about telling your wife you wish her love again. Then agonize over the new guy and how he is sleeping over etc. That makes the words seem insincere. I can honestly say that I'm not wishing my ex and maggot "love". I just don't care any more but I won't go that far.
I meant what I said about that Barb. It hurts, but I still meant what I said. It bothers me that he's sleeping over WHEN MY KIDS ARE THERE. That does not make my words insincere.
I appreciate ALL of your advice and feedback, as well as that from all the others who contribute...Sun, fig, 2tp, Kaffe, Gineen, 25...and everybody else. Even if I don't heed it, I still ponder it and appreciate it. It is helpful.
So last night I get a text from Ex about some more trouble she's having with our youngest daughter. Below is the entire conversation.....
ex - Just to let you know youngest daughter is pulling her leaving again stunt. You may want to talk to her. I told her I was not putting up with her disrespect and she said she would leave tomorrow. Maybe she should stay with you.
ex - She treats me like sh!t and I'm not putting up with it. Mo more.
me - I understand your frustration. Do you have any ideas on how we can solve these problems of getting our children back on track?
ex - Idk but you may want to see if she wants to stay with you. I haven't seen her since I've been home. Just texted.
ex - I figure you can deal with her better since you can relate to her disrespectful behavior.
me - Can you please clarify that last statement for me...as I'm not clear on what you meant?
ex - I think the first thing I said was a bit more important.
That's the extent of it. I thought about responding again, but I didn't. My daughter called me later and we talked. She told me she had fought with her mom. She was hanging out with the boy that I mentioned earlier...the one who was kicked out of school. They were just roaming the neighborhoods (10 p.m. on a school night). I told her I was comcerned about her; she said she'd stay in touch with me. I wasn't home...went to an NBA game last night. She said they walked around until midnight then she went home and "passed out".
Should Im follow up with her mom or just let it be?
Wow, Antlers! You've got a lot going on. Here are my thoughts....
Your Ex just swung open the door to having your D live with you. Take her up on it and make arrangements starting today. Get her under your roof, with your rules and your care. Then lets see if perhaps that creates a catalyst for getting the other children back on track.
You've been getting good advice from the other posters regarding the challenges you are facing with your children. I believe that you need to take a more assertive approach with them and their behavioral issues. I don't know if the legal route is the best path or something else. I don't have much experience with this. But I can say that sitting back and being helpless is definitely not the answer.
Have you ever heard of "the total transformation system?" It is a self help program that has several cd's/dvd's that are great for learning how to deal with and manage defiant behavior in children of all ages. You might be able to find it at a discount on ebay, craigslist, etc. Take a look at it and see if maybe there is some value for you.
========================
After reading your posts from the past 2-5 days it seems clear to me that you still have not completely let go of your Ex and your M. Man, you have got to let it go or it will drag you down to a place you don't want to be.
Quick story:
A female friend of a friend was married with 2 kids and she left her H for another woman, (apparently she discovered she was gay). They have been D for 5 years. The husband was devastated by the breakup. Not only did he lose his M and his W, but he lost his W to a woman. Talk about a crushing blow to his ego.
The problem is he never recovered from the devastating loss of his W to another woman. As a result, he went into a deep depression. He simply couldn't pull himself out of his funk. His health deteriorated considerably.
One day his daughter went to his house to get some clothes and saw her father sitting in a recliner. Something didn't feel right to her, so she went out to the car and told her mom that she thought dad might be sick. Mom goes in and discovers that he had died. He was 38 years old.
Turns out he had totally let his health decline and he basically just gave up on life. One might deduce that he may have died of a broken heart.
Antlers, you sound depressed to me and I really think you need to do something about it. Having a big GAL might be one solution or perhaps a combination of AD's and GAL might be helpful. Only you know what would be best but I think you need to do something here because you are in a deep funk.
=========================
Regarding the text exchange with your S; I don't know how long it had been since you had communication with him, (seems I remember it being quite a long time) but he opened a little door and you barged right on through like a bull in a china shop.
Remember several weeks ago I suggested that you stop the pursuit and give him some space to find his way, his courage and maybe he'd come seek you out again? I wish you would heed this advice.
Anyway, here is how your reaction to his initial text came across as I read it.
If you are familiar with the movie 16 Candles, then you'll recall the scene where the Geek and Samantha are sitting in a car in the HS auto shop. He's telling her about how much of a schmuck he is with girls and Samantha is trying to be caring and sympathetic and the Geek totally mistakes this as some sort of overture and leans over and starts dry humping on Samantha.
She manages to fend him off and so they continue their conversation and once again he thinks she is sending a signal of interest and again he's all over her! Finally, he gets the message and backs off.
This is how you came across in that text exchange. You get a little signal and WHAM full steam ahead.
Now if you were to take it a little slower (i.e. give your son the clothes he asked for) then maybe things would turn out different and the door would open wider.
Continuing on with my analogy; later in the same scene, after the Geek has bared his soul and stopped his pursuit, he asks Samantha if he can borrow her underwear. And... the rest is history!
I know that was a corny way of trying to convey to you that you need to slow the hell down. When a door cracks open don't go barging through. Rebuild the trust one small gesture at a time and I think you will begin to see movement.
==========================
I picked up something you said earlier about a friend asking you to go to church and that you have declined.
I've got to tell you Antlers, you really should go. You and I have had several back and forth's about prayer and religion and I really believe that you would find great comfort if you would attend church on a regular basis.
First of all it gives you something to do on a Sunday morning, (gets you out in the world and out of your own head). But more importantly, if you can find a way to connect spiritually with God, I think you will begin to see more clearly where your path to peace lies.
I'm not an overly religious person. But since the development of my sitch, I have come back to the church and have found great comfort there. I have also been able to share this with my kids and we have developed a nice little routine and have grown closer as a result.
Just something for you to think about.
I've said enough for now. Sorry for such a long post,
Be well, Antlers!
Does she understand that if she does come live with you, you will not tolerate her running around all hours of the night and with whomever she wants and firm rules? My daughter knows that. She's not willing to give up the freedom that she has at her mom's house. She likes it the way it is...getting to run around all hours of the night wiht whoever she wants, and not having any firm rules to abide by.
Again, your ex does not want to work with you to get your kids back on track. That'a a shame. Our kids are more important than we are.
What are your ideas? I'm still thinking about what to do under these difficult circumstances.
2tp.....
There is always a lot going on, and it sometimes changes on a daily basis. I don't know if she meant 'live' with me or 'stay' with me until she comes back to her house. She left a month ago and stayed gone for 5 nights. My daughter is not willing to live with me because I wouldn't let her do the stuff that her mother does. Even though she and I are getting along good these days (we had lunch 3 days in a row earlier this week)...there would be rules and boundries, and consequences...she's not going to subject herself to that.
It's difficult to be "assertive" regarding their behavior under these circumstances...their mother refuses to work with me at all. And if I send her a communication about the kids and their bad behavior, she immediately shows it to them (per my daughter) and uses it as a weapon against me...to make the kids mad at me. They don't want anyone 'bridling' them.
I know some here are mad at me, or frustrated with me, because I'm not calling the police or child protective services...or 'taking the bull by the horns' regarding the situation. I'd walk in front of a train for my kids. Do you honestly think I wouldn't do whatever I could if I thought it would make things better instead of worse? And it can always get worse. Sometimes, as much as we don't like it...or refuse to accept it...there's not a lot that can be done about certain situations under certain circumstances. IF their mom would put their needs before her own resentment and hatred of me...then something positive could be done under these difficult circumstances.
===================================================================================
That may be true 2tp. But I'm doing a lot better than I have been for over the last 3 years. I DO know that. I miss the emotional connection...but I'm letting go of that too...bit by bit. I do get depressed and sad at times. I'm taking steps and making progress...slow as it is.
====================================================================================
He has continued to text me many, many times since then. He wants to buy a video game chair and a vending fridge...and he thinks he'll get a bunch of money if he sells his clothes. The merchandise he wants is easily over $250. Resale shops give penny's on the dollar for items that they DO want. In addition, he's been suspended from school for a period of 8 days over a 9 day period. He's still on suspension. Should he be rewarded for that behavior? He's pretty overbearing...he'll text the same message 50, 60, even 70 times in rapid succession if I don't answer him immediately, regardless of what I'm doing. It's messed up.
====================================================================================I've been to that church before. We all went there a few times. I did like it...I liked the pastor there and the way he presented the message...and the subject matter. I don't know. The lady who goes there is one of my good friends that I ride with. I've shared as much with her as I have you folks here. She's strong.
And seriously - when I said that your words and actions don't match - I am talking about telling your wife you wish her love again. Then agonize over the new guy and how he is sleeping over etc. That makes the words seem insincere. I can honestly say that I'm not wishing my ex and maggot "love". I just don't care any more but I won't go that far.
I meant what I said about that Barb. It hurts, but I still meant what I said. It bothers me that he's sleeping over WHEN MY KIDS ARE THERE. That does not make my words insincere.
I appreciate ALL of your advice and feedback, as well as that from all the others who contribute...Sun, fig, 2tp, Kaffe, Gineen, 25...and everybody else. Even if I don't heed it, I still ponder it and appreciate it. It is helpful.
no matter what you say, or IF you do something
I urge you to say NOTHING about Steve or him being there. It REEKS of jealousy and if you dig deep you ought to be able to see that.
All that is relevant is the FACT that their schools have sent you reports.
You can mention your
belief they are not supervised enough,
which leaves the option of increasing supervision, to your wife. (It'll look better than demanding their return.)
Also please do not mention money or support payments b/c
the first attack you will get is "Antlers is mean and controlling and vindictive AND just wants money"...
Let it roll off. It should roll off b/c it's not true.
Folks, the thing about him just "taking legal action" for Antlers is that the family court WILL ask the kids (14 and over)
where THEY WANT to live.
True, If the non-custodial parent offers evidence that they were doing better with him than they are now or that their education/safety is threatened, that will help.
But it's not a slam dunk...hate to harp on this but the kids have bad memories of their time with Antlers too...
so in their young minds, perhaps, little supervision by mom, is better than feeling criticized/berated by the increased "supervision" Antlers offers them. Goes both ways.
I KNOW you say you are different now Antlers...I get that.
But so far, I don't believe your family is convinced of that.
Yes you ought to pursue something to help the kids out, no matter what else happens
(but leave the w and her bf out of it. It's not necessary. Her parenting style, or lack thereof, is NOT necessary to point out. Of course a judge will ask "where's mom?" and you need say nothing there). If the kids lie, the judge will see the school reports
(but ask yourself the tough question...why do the kids want to be there so much that they'd have a "virtual' mom, rather than you.Be ready for the blast back at you. Be ready cope with a blitz about the past and you can say things like
"As I've admitted before, I failed you in many ways in the past,
BUT I've worked hard to change,
and at this point in time, your beliefs about me are outdated".
Stay on message. Don't get sucked in. Do not defend specifics from the past. No score cards. NO mention of "w did this/that to ME too!!" NONE of that.
And Antlers, you don't have to say my words. Ask around. Say what feels most authentic to you
but keep it SHORT....and don't go overboard with your well wishes. They sound like posturing to me. Even if sincere.
As fig and other say, You are not trying to win the kid's friendship. You are trying to be a father, and a father recognizes that appropriate discipline
is a form of LOVE.
Nothing warm and fuzzy will happen soon. Maybe your fear is that you'll lose the bond you have with your d.
You might.
You can show respect for them (also key) by asking her what SHE thinks. Is SHE concerned about her brother?
Does SHE think the c is a bad idea for him
and if so, WHY? Have you ever asked them why they so object to him getting c?
She might believe it's rehashing the past and that is a legit concern. Might even have hurt
YOUR R with him more than you know b/c he's reliving the bad stuff. )
Just some ideas to ponder.
Good luck
I agree 25...
mostly
but I have to say that doing nothing and letting the kids run wild (and by doing nothing I mean, not calling the police, not calling child protective services etc) he is just as guilty as the ex
because I don't care who they say they want to live with
if they are running around
underage
unsupervised
getting suspended from school
hanging out with people who do drugs (lets just assume they are doing drugs and drinking because odds are on that they are)
then they need to be taken away
from ex
antlers
and put somewhere where there IS supervision
and that is what a parent does
the dirty work
Antlers, it's a tough sitch with no easy solution. Your ex actually said she cannot handle daughter and she is not around to supervise her. I have a 14 yr old boy, and he does what I say, he whines, complains, talks back and tells me how mean I am, but no matter, he does what I say.
Your daughter needs to come to your house, it's not her choice, she is a minor, she has no say in the matter, don't ask her. When you described what she was doing I thought she'd be was 17 or more, she is still underage and you are responsible for her, so no more asking, she does what you say and the rules stick and if that 20something guy better stay off, she is a minor.
As for your son, who's paying the cell phone? 50-70 texts?? that is insane. After 4 lengthy texts I just pick up the phone. He gets nothing until he improves his behavior, if he texts you more than 5 times he looses his phone, period. A cell phone is a privilege. I have taken all sorts of things away from my son for talking back to me (that's the worst he's done). For weeks he's gone without internet, ipod, xbox. Right now he's 1 month grounded with no Netflix for messing with me for not giving me the controller of the wii when I asked him to and being disrespectful.
They'll call you mean and others, that's fine, that is your job. The dean of my school would say "if your kids don't call you mean you are not doing your job".
A great book that has helped with my teen, who is a good kid but morphing into a teen is "for parents only" by shaunti feldhahn. Above all, pray earnestly day and night over them.
Hey Antlers. How are you doing?
Hey 2tp. I'm doin' OK. Just takin' a break from the board. I hope all is as well as it can be with you.
Good to hear you're doing well. Nothing new here. Same old, same old. Still struggling to detach and break old habits. Some day.....
Hey Antlers - you've been keeping a low profile. How are things with you and the kids? Any improvement with your son? Hope all is well.
Hi 2tp. Lotta stuff going on with the kids. Not any of it good. Some communication going on with their mother. It oscillates...we'll communicate strictly about the kids, good and decent communication...then out of the clear blue she'll throw a hatchet. It's a stressful emotional roller coaster, both with the kids and with her. She has her hands full with them and she's tearing her hair out, so to speak. I don't banter with her, I don't fight with her, and I don't disparage her...I just listen (or read) what she says, including her spear throwing at me, then go on and try to be helpful and cooperative regarding the situation with the kids.
But continuing to be passive, not pro-active when you have extremely volatile situations going on and your kids are being destroyed does not help. I'm sure you stopped posting because you did not want to take the bull by the horns as most of us were pushing you to do.
So how's that working for you?
Barb
You need to stop being the "VICTIM" here. Put on your daddy pants and do something. And although we never knew what you did to your family that you continue to allude to and be sorry for, or why you don't trust the courts or your lawyer but if you want to improve things for your kids - you NEED to go back to your lawyer and probably back to court to make those changes. Like it or not.
Barb
Hey Antlers! Any movement with the kids? Are things improving?
Hi 2tp.
She wanted both of them to be with her FULL TIME. She put forth every effort she possibly could to get BOTH of them to be with her FULL TIME. And she continues to do anything necessary to keep them both with her full time. After just 3 months of both of them being with her full time...she's quitting!
I got the following texts from her a couple days ago...
"I am so sick and tired of this [censored]. It's not freakin normal. These kids are out of control and there's no pulling them out. I am out of here by mid June and it can't come soon enough."
"I am sick of all of this illegal [censored] they do. Sick of it. And they don't care about anything. They don't care about what it's doing to them or me or anyone. They are like all other criminals...selfish."
"I'm not staying in this place any longer. It's nothing but bad and negative. I've had nothing but bad happen to me in the past year all because of the choices these kids are making. I have nothing here. It's nothing but a sinking ship and I'm getting off before I die."
She's moving back to where we came up here from in Texas to live with her soulmate. Up in the air what the kids are gonna do. She says they can do whatever they want but she's going!
She only wanted them so you wouldn't have them. She doesn't want to be a parent to th
Sorry about that! Don't quite know what happened! Anyway...she doesn't want to be a parent, she just wanted to win.
Now what are going to do? Hopefully you will get your kids the help they need. They do not need you as a buddy right now but as a parent.
By the way, save that email!
Kat
Antlers: NOW are you going to step up to the plate and take some serious action? Someone needs to be the parent here and so far neither of you are doing it. You need to pull yourself out of "victim" mode and put on your daddy pants. It is about time.
Sorry that my posts to you seem harsh but you withdraw rather than DO anything. Your kids are getting worse by the day. I think we warned you that would happen.
But ex has just given you the opportunity to take over and fix things.
NOW JUST DO IT!
Barb
Wow! I guess things have gotten considerably worse since we last heard about what was going on in your life. So what is your plan?
If your ex is bailing on the kids, then it would seem like it is time for you to assert parental control. Do you need to go to the courts for that to make it official? If so and even if the kids don't want it or like it, that is probably the smart thing to do.
Once you get custody of the kids then you will obviously have your work cut out for you in terms of getting them under control and behaving like responsible people. I don't envy you, it ain't going to be easy!!!
There is a program called "thetotaltransformation" that is an excellent tool for working with and correcting defiant behavior in children and teens. The program cost a few hundred bucks but may possibly be picked up off of ebay for less. It is a series of CD's that provide step by step ideas and solutions for addressing the kinds of behavioral problems you are dealing with with the kids.
Most importantly, and I'm sure you know this, the children need your love and discipline; someone who gives a sh!t. It doesn't seem that your ex. is capable of providing that so you get the prize.
Take a look at www . thetotaltransformation . com it may be just want you need at this time.
Good luck, Antlers!
Hi 2tp...
My son told me that smoking pot "makes me not think about yours and moms divorce...and what happened to our family." I told his mother that "he said it calms him and makes him feel better about stuff...even if only for a little while."
Her response was "It's a cop out. He needs to learn how to deal with problems."
Yes - telling your ex wife what he said is really going to help. NOT
I'm just shocked here at the lack of parenting your kids are getting. It is a form of child abuse.
Kids are asking for guidance when they act out. Right now, no one is laying down the law for them so they are all over the place. Time to step and be Dad. Your ex isn't going to do anything. Get in there before something tragic happens.
kat
She had asked my why I thought he was smoking pot....something he started doing regularly since he went to stay with his mom back in January....I was answering her question. And her response was for this 14 year old emotionally troubled boy was "it's a copout. He needs to learn to deal with problems." Yeah...like she is! Throwing her hands up in the air and saying 'I quit, I'm outa here' regarding the kids!
There is a tremendous amount of stuff going on in all of our lives. She reached out to me in the middle of March, because she was having so much trouble with both kids, and wanted to cooperate and work together regarding the kids. I said OK. Lots of open communication between she and I regarding the kids. Both kids ran away from her house at different times and stayed gone for 3 to 5 nights each, other times they just wouldn't come home, drug use by both kids, both kids have been arrested separately while they were living with her, son is kicked out of school for the rest of the year starting last March, just to name a little of the kind of stuff that's been going on.
She let them run buck wild in order to keep them with her and then it got so bad that she decided to quit and leave...AFTER the kids had been damaged tremendously by her decisions.
We've talked for hours on the phone during this time. Not once have I criticized her, or used anything against her. No "I told you so's" or anything like that at all from me. I was simply glad that finally she was willing to coparent. She would still lash out at me with venom occasionally...in those cases it was always one sided...I never returned what she was fishing out. I was concerned for the kids and always returned to that.
I see tremendous amounts of torn families and out of control kids daily in my work. I've also been exposed to many of my kids friends and they are always from torn families...fragmented...and these kids are as lost as mine are.
If one or both kids choose to go to Texas with their mom...I'll have zero opportunity to influence their lives at all. I want to influence their lives in a positive way. They are completely messed up, no doubt. But I believe I can, over time, be a model of redemption, perseverance, and forgiveness to them. I am committed to it.
Telling them 'how the cow eats the cabbage', or having a 'my way or the highway' attitude toward them, cracking whips and being stern, etc., at this point, will only drive them away. Then my opportunity is lost. If they see me as controlling and manipulative and overbearing...they are gone!
I'm doing the best I can under very difficult circumstances...and I'm now trying to do it differently (better) than I ever have. I don't expect you to understand...and there is no way, based on the very limited info. on my thread (compared to actual real life events) that you could understand the complexity of this situation. There's also a lot of pain involved.
Anyway, for you to make the rash statements that you have, ONLY knowing a fraction of the circumstances is, in my opinion...waaaay out of line. I come here to vent, get support, and glean what beneficial stuff from it that I can.....not to be ridiculed to this degree and be told that what I'm doing is a form if child abuse! I wish to God that I knew at least a small amount of what you profess to know about my situation. I'd be able to fix things right up.
That said...I do have my hands very full. The kids are completely 'lost' at this point, I still have to be ready to meet the needs of a very demanding job in the Emergency Room, what the kids are going to do is still up in the air regarding where they'll go when their mom leaves the state, I've still got Court and legal stuff to look forward to regarding my sons arrest, school for him in the future is a huge obstacle that'll have to be dealt with...and literally tons of other stuff. I've still got emotional baggage myself that I'm dealing with...and I still love the mother of my kids.
I can do it. I know it won't be easy, but I'm committed to helping my kids overcome the many bad occurrences and things in their lives. And I'm gonna continue to work on me.
your son needs treatment
there is no other ifs ands or buts
to insist that you can help him by allowing him to continue to smoke pot while you know about it is ridiculous and painful
as a recovering adict, I can assure you that the only thing you are doing is further damaging your son and daughter
please get them into inpatient treatment as soon as possible
Antlers sorry about this. your ExW's behavior is very common. The Christmas parent lets the kids run while because of guilt. The kids take advantage of this because they are angry. So they act out. I would ask their school counselors to intervene and maybe guide you. I don't know if your Ex can just paxk and move out of state while the kids are still under age?
Antlers: It is not about what we know of your situation - if we don't know enough - it is because you were not willing to share that info. No one can help you without the whole story BUT...
What we DO know is that your children need guidance and intervention. YOU should know this from your career and also from your heart. Some of us are in careers where we have to report such incidents. You continue to act from a "victim" mode, not from that of a concerned parent. To continue to NOT do the right thing, to step in and take control or even to waste your time trying to communicate with the other parent who clearly DOES NOT GET IT is acting in a neglectful manner. If you don't think it is abusive - then let's call it neglect. But what difference is the word - the tragedy is similar.
Months have gone by since you first made us aware of your children collapsing yet you continued to write about your own feelings and how you "forgive your ex" while not dealing with the big problem. It's like adding fire doors to your house when it is already burning to the ground.
Do you want your kids kicked out of school permanently? Arrested? Killed in a car accident? Overdosed? On welfare?
Do you EVER watch Dr Phil??? There are programs to reach out to these kids. You MUST know that from your work. If not - you need to go to the school and forget about getting your ex online with you. Clearly the kids best interests are not what her concern is.
I wonder why I waste my time worrying here when you don't
Barb
Hey Antlers - looks like there are 2 threads with the same title. Hope you are doing well.
It's a worthy topic. I'm doin' OK. How're you 2tp?
Doing ok I suppose for someone who is in limbo. Getting the itch to break out!
I looked at it like this...I messed up, plain and simple. I wanted to make things better after I knew better. If that meant me being in limbo...I was prepared to do that. If I made a mistake regarding that...it was going to be because I held on too long, and not because I let go too soon. I'd do it again too.
But everyone has to do what's right for them. I do wish you well though.
If I made a mistake regarding that...it was going to be because I held on too long, and not because I let go too soon.
That is a good way to look at it. And I agree that it would be much better to err on the side of hanging on too long vs. letting go too soon.
Hey, did you ever look into the "total transformation system" I mentioned awhile back? If not, look it up. I think it might be helpful for you and the troubles you are having with the kids.
I did look at it at that time, but things are still so up in the air regarding the kids presently...I think my son is going to stay here...but I don't know what my daughter is going to do. She's been mostly living with a friend of hers recently...
Her mom is fixing up the house (new paint and carpet) and getting it ready to sell. She's resolved and firm in what she's doing. My son has been with me since April 22nd.
You need to get yor kids help now. We don't care what your wife is going to do. We want to know what YOU are going to do to help your kids. You are the only person that can help them and you have puttered away way too much time. Action antlers is the only thing that is going to get things done.
I have to 'get' my kids first before I can get them help.
If I take firm, definitive, and 'controlling' action right now...my kids are going to go to Texas and be 500 miles away from me. Then I will have NO ability to influence their lives at all, or be a model to them of redemption, forgiveness, and perserverance...and unconditional love. They are both old enough that they CAN go where they want (as far as with their mom or with me)...and the Courts WILL let them make that decision themselves.
Keep in mind that I was CONTROLLING in addition to being angry, resentful, and emotionally abusive to those that I cared about the most in the past.
I don't expect any of you to understand and/or agree...but I assure you that I DO love my kids more than any of my critics here. And I certainly wouldn't profess to know more about their situations (my critics) than they themselves do.
Your critics just want you to act. Your wife is leaving to get away from your kids, she isn't going to let them tag along. What am I missing here?
they can't leave for texas if they are in treatment
Hi Antlers!
Just checking in and wanted to see how you are doing. How are things going with the kids? Have you made any progress on that front? I suspect the summer break is going to present you with a whole new set of challenges. How are you doing in terms of growing your faith?
I hope all is well!
Take care!
Hi 2tp.
I'm really doing my best under difficult circumstances. I've been reading some Zen philosophy to try and get a more healthy perspective on things. My son is in crisis...he's been diagnosed by 2 different psych. MD's now with ODD, in addition to depressive disorder, anxiety, and poly-substance abuse...marijuana, Lortab, Roxicet, Xanax, PCP, inhalants, cocaine, triple C, and alcohol. He's been arrested twice and now has 5 charges pending against him. I took him to a children's recovery center after I got him out of the juvenile intervention center, and he was in CRC for 7 days. He got out them had to go back that same day because of continued problems. After 2 more days he was transferred to an acute care facility 100 miles away and he was there for 8 days, then released because insurance wouldn't approve more. His mother has fought me every step of the way. She has used these events to turn my kids against me and endear them to her. I have been on the receiving end of the most awful verbal abuse from both kids. And their mom has just displayed pure hatred toward me throughout. Her hatred toward me outweighs any love she has for our kids. Her hatred toward me is detrimental to our kids. I've seen it firsthand for a long time now, but especially recently. My daughter is mostly living with a friend. It's still up in the air what the kids are going to do when their mom moves back to Texas. Son vacillates between wanting to go with her or stay with me...daughter doesn't say much at all about it. I'm trying to get my son the help he needs but it's been one hell of a difficult situation. I still pray and ask for God's guidance throughout.
Why am I sad that she's leaving?
Maybe because she won't be so available to fight you. I think she is only interested in hurting you and not at all in saving your kids lives. Yes, it is that serious.
Kat
I don't believe that that's why I'm sad she's leaving..."so she won't be so available to fight" me. I don't want to fight with her at all. I suppose it's a natural progression of physical separation from someone I was so invested in. I definately agree with you in that "she is only interested in hurting you and not at all in saving your kids lives".
What your wife does or doesn't do or if she hates you or doesn't hate you or if the kids act like they hate you or they don't is ALL IRRELEVENT!!! The ONLY thing that matters and has mattered for months on end is getting your kids the help they need and especially your son. DO NOT stop until you have him in a longterm facility. It would not have gone this far if you had done this 7 months ago when we implored you to get help. You were so stuck on how wife was acting and going on about forgiveness. It was like planting a few saplings when there was a forest fire raging right in front of you.
Your son will die if you don't intervene and be persistent about getting him into longterm care.And fighting your ex about it is nothing. You should be willing to fight off an army for your kids. And your daughter needs some control as well.
Gineen's advice was spot on. You are the parent, not the friend. I'm glad you're finally doing something. Don't let it be too little too late.
Barb
if you make your son a temp ward of the state they can legally commit him to a facility for longer term care...then a judge decides when he can leave, not insurance
he needs to be in a long term facility
your daughter doesn't get to decide where she stays
you do
if she thinks she does, the police can certainly set her straight
Hi Antlers,
I've been thinking about you lately. I hope you are doing well.
I'm doing OK. Kids have each struggled in their own way since their mother moved 500 miles away to a different state to live with her boyfriend on June 24th. Daughter is still living with the friend she has been living with for many months. That woman is a single mother to two girls of her own and she doesn't make much money. They are struggling financially because my daughters' mother doesn't send them any financial help at all. I am still sending her child support checks regularly except that now they are sent to her boyfriends' house in Texas where she lives. My son is with me. He has been doing better recently. We go to Court tomorrow to face the 5 charges that he has pending against him.
Your ex should not be receiving any CS if her children are not living with her. You should have gone back to your lawyer as soon as this happened - don't waste any more time. Get that changed immediately.
Where she lives is and who she lives with is not up to you. Don't keep blaming her for all that has happened with the kids. You need to accept responsibility for them too.
Glad you are standing by your son and he is living with you. Good luck tomorrow.
Barb
agree with Barb
she should not be receiving child support if she is not living with the children.
that money should be going to the mom she is living with
talk to your lawyer and get that changed
and
why is your daughter living with this other woman and not with you? You are the parent...this is not OK