Smiley's Person's Last Communiqué A year having passed, and no longer a "newcomer," I've moved to a different neighborhood.
It's all over but the shouting now. And there's going to be a lot of
shouting. A year ago the idea was a "mediated divorce" -- after all, the only thing we "really" disagreed about was the duration and amount of alimony from WAW to SP. Now there's not an iota of agreement on anything.
Just before Thanksgiving '09, STBXMRSSP's lawyer sent a request to The Mouthpiece that "our side" make a settlement offer ASAP, because STBXW wanted to tie it all up by January 1. And so we did.
3 days ago we received a reply. "Rejected." Now that's expected -- it's a negotiating ploy, so presumably there's some middle ground to work towards.
Which would be the case with a normal human being. And which, therefore, is not the case with STBXMRSSP.
Along with the reply was a counter-proposal. I've had to educate The Mouthpiece a bit on STBXMRSSP and her wiley ways. In this "proposal," she proposes to cheat me out of my interest in the house by setting up the language in such a way that she has the right to refuse any offer while I have only the right to accept any offer, including any offer to buy out my interest in the house.
Wiley ways. STBX has alluded repeatedly over the year to the idea of her father buying out my interest in this house. It's always pitched in this sort-of off-handed way -- "Hey, here's a thought...."
So what she's trying to do is construct the settlement so that her father makes the first bid on the house -- at assessed (not market) value (which is very likely to be an inequality assessed < market) -- which I am obligated to take, whereas if another buyer made a bid she has the right to refuse it.
The "proposal" also includes a preposterous laundry list of debts I "owe" her, such as half of her student loans (even though at law there's no basis for claiming community obligations after the fact). This, too, is wiley, because she has long complained -- among the litany of complaints about SP Himself -- that she has to split her retirement fund with me (and she always deposited the maximum annual contribution to it).
Well what a coincidence! The "debts" I "owe" her miraculously sum up to the amount she'd have to pay me from her retirement plan, isn't that weird? So, hey, you know, golly-gosh gee-whillikers -- why don't we just call it even? She's "willing" to "overlook" my "debts" in exchange for having all of her money to herself.
But the best part is in the alimony computation. Somehow they've concocted a rationale whereby I actually earn 35% more money than I seem to collect in paychecks, based on some phantom payroll I "could" expect to receive in the future (strangely they left out the magickal pony) -- which means I really don't need any alimony at all and, since she's been paying me temporary alimony for the past year, I "owe" her that money back!
So there she's been, asking my help, begging me to intervene when she can't manage The Boy, expecting me to be "flexible" when she has to do this or that, soft-talking and nearly sweet-nothing-whispering from time-to-time -- and all the while (because there's no way they constructed this in an afternoon) she's working this ridiculous notion that she can have it all, screw SP, and devil take the hindmost.
As that eminent philosopher, Carl Spackler, put it: "Okay, I guess we're playing for keeps now. I guess the playing around is pretty much over, huh?"
So be it. Scorched-earth litigation it is. Like the man told
Peter Arnett after the 1968 Tet Offensive battle at Bên Tre, I'll have to destroy the village in order to save it.
I'm off to the kitchen, then, to cook up a steaming dish of Divorce à la Chevauchée.
Hi Smiley.
Started off amicable on her part, she says. Once her attorney saw the assets involved via 'discovery', it became a war of attrition. That's where it is now. Scorched earth litigation, as you say.
I'm not surprised. They just want 'out' initially, they say. They want it to be amicable, they say. Then it becomes what it does. I'm familiar with the reference to the Tet Offensive too...and that's a good description of what it is. Destroy.
I'm sorry you find yourself here. I thought for a while there you were gonna be able to pull it out. You're not alone dude!
Hey Smiley...
At least she's consistent.
The legal end of divorce is financial.
Extraction from a marriage is emotional.
She seems to be at ease with the difference. The mom needs help and the dad responds. The former 'oops I'm banging Italy' emotional confidant feels down in the dumps and the betrayed spouse rescues.
Maintain your boundaries. She is not your friend or your wife. She does not have your best interests at heart. She pulls your strings like a marionette.
Informing your lawyer of her machinations is a good thing.. with said wileyness aided by her lawyer.
The best revenge, if you feel the need for that word, is a life well lived.
*hugs*
She does not have your best interests at heart.
Ain't that the truth? I was on the blower today with some family members who absolutely broke down hearing the stuff that's being "proposed."
Even now I can't get my head around it -- that she could know that this execrable screed her lawyer sent purports to show that I "owe" her, who earns 5X more than I do, over a year's pre-tax salary as of right now, and that my "debt" increases every day (with interest), yet could still have the unmitigated gall to demand practically in the next breath that I be "flexible" and accept her idea of hiring an overnight babysitter to watch the kids (in lieu of her own custody) on a weekend that I'm out of town, so that she can go to European Capital ("it's the only week I can get away, and I want to be there with 'friends' Saturday night").
I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again -- who the hell do these people become? Were they always there, lurking, or is it something about signing the Walkaway Oath of Office that requires they turn into such Compleat A**holes?
Well well well. Living well indeed. That is the best revenge.
Though I seem to recall my old platoon sergeant also saying something about judiciously utilized high explosives....
Smiley..
It sounds like you have right of first refusal when it comes to custody of your children when your divorcing spouse will be away. However, that's about it. Her time with the kids is her time with the kids however she wants to spend it.. with or without them. Tough noogies. It doesn't seem fair.. and it isn't.. but it is what it is.
She was probably whacked out by your initial financial settlement and zinged back an equally disturbing reply. But.. that's why God created lawyers who know how to wrangle the financials and make it work. The initial shock is the worst. Step away.. realize it's a bunch of hooey and a button pusher.
It's pretty silly.. let's say in regard to bonuses. They can't be counted because the amount varies. Projecting your 'potential' earnings is playing with a crystal ball that's really a kickball. Once the earnings occur, then she can haul your patookie back to court if she so chooses. I know my former spouse is infuriated that he pays me the equitable (not equal) amount of alimony allowed by the state. It's all percentages.
Her proposal reeks of her greatest fear.. having to pay alimony. Her weakness is your strength.. or at least I've heard that.
And nothing is official until the settlement is signed and finished off by the judge.
*hugs*
That's right. My X asked for full custody of the kids, he who was barely around them the prior 16 years, requested to pay no alimony and no child support although I've been a stay-at-home mom for the past 10 years and wasn't working at the time. We haven't gotten to the final paperwork yet, but I would be surprised (and appeal) if that actually happened. I don't know about being a$$es, although I know many that are, but I think the main problem is how self-centered they've become. They see us as the only obstacle to their complete happiness and perfect life.....
My God, SP, I hope you stick it to her, but good. Get every single thing that you are legally entitled to. Then, turn your back on her forever.
I don't know why, especially after reading here for so long, but the abject cruelty and selfishness of these WAW's still stuns me. Lame-@ss "women." I am, once again, embarrassed to be of the female persuasion.
Godspeed, SP, and stick it to her.
A lot of this has to do with the attorneys. In my W's case, we sat down a month ago and talked about an agreement -- even though I don't want this. She agreed to joint physical custody and I'd still give her child support, just at a lot lower level. She just needed to figure out something on the house.
Two weeks ago I get a petition -- hasn't been filed yet -- and she's seeking sole custody and the full child support.
Turns out her lawyer got to her.
I've tried to tell her that the lawyer has to do what she says, but she's got the lawyer and her bevy of divorced coworkers advising her to get every dime even though she makes $10k more a year than me.
I got a letter from my L saying her L is going to send him her "wish list."
And we'll go from there. At least I know I can handle money and I'll be OK. W never thinks more than a day ahead and if she made double what she does today she'd still be broke.
She had to borrow from her mom just for the retainer.
The abject cruelty and selfishness of these WAW's still stuns me.
Yep. Me too.
My w make 4 times more than me and she had to borrow money from her dad to get this far into the divorce.
At this point nothing surprises me, @v1olin. In a curious way I find it dehumanizing -- treating me and everything I (presumably) once stood for as chattel. What am I worth? What was my time worth? I'm not saying don't bargain, I'm not saying divorce should just be a one-way payday, but I am saying...really? You're going to include $125 I moved from one account to another for 3 days and so "deprived" you of the interest? Really?
I never did take @Gypsy's advice, not completely (big shock, I know), so I've taken in e-mail to referring to my self, Bob Dole-like, as "Respondent."
So today there's this discussion of some thing or other for the kids that has to be paid for. And she asks Respondent to take care of it. And Respondent asks 3 times for STBX to write a simple, declarative sentence, saying that she agrees with Respondent paying for this thing (lest I get a letter in the year 2020 claiming I "owe" her from 2010, with interest!).
She won't -- "we'll just settle up at the end of the month."
What? "We'll just"??? A -- as Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, "What do you mean, 'we,' White Man?" B -- "just"?? We'll "just" settle up? You mean, "just" go, oh I guess I spent about 120 bucks on Themselves this month?
Yeah, 'cause we're so Casual 'n' everything.
Hey Smile Guy...
Here's my translations:
Dehumanizing = (sub)minimum financial obligation
Interest lost on $125 = Bullying and distraction
Respondent = Disassociating and victim
Drop the crap. If something simple can't be worked out the first time, then have the lawyers bang it out. She puts her energy in protecting her assets and responds to legalese. And face it.. she's knows how to push you over.
No need to retreat. No need to attack. Stand your ground. Know what the end goal is. Who you want to be when the divorce is over.
And as you yammer about all her bullying, what is the strategy/plan with your lawyer? Me, I regret that I didn't follow my instincts and get rid of the 'best' lawyer for one who watched out for my financial needs.
In CT.. and I assume other states, when there's a disparity in income the clever lawyers make sure their lower wage earning client pays only 30% rather than 50% of the children's medical and college needs. Even though I asked those same questions, my lawyer blew it off. I only found out later about that little tidbit.
She is playing you like an accordion right now. Don't talk to her. Keep it to email. If there's something you can't immediately work out, have the lawyer deal with it.
Oh yes.. and I only reply to your posts so the repeated pounding helps my fingernails grow stronger.
*hugs*
Hey Smiley, you haven't posted in a little bit. How are ya'?
Everything's everything.
In December "her side" demanded "my side" put up or shut up -- she had to have a settlement offer by January 1, dammit!
On December 23 we put up.
On February 18 she replied. Every paragraph rejected. "Her side" produced a counter-proposal in which I miraculously owe her 75 large, even though she earns quadripple what I do.
Mandatory conference with the judge on May 20-something, so "my side" has been stalling on a reply.
Meanwhile, she's got another of her overseas f*ckfests scheduled for next week -- which means, naturally, that for the past week she's been Batsh*t Crazy, bombarding me with nastygrams full of references to her "loathing" and "contempt" and "burning hatred" for Smiley's Person hisself, a procedure that will be temporarily suspended while she's gone and then will kick back in for about a week to 10 days after her return. This, I have observed, seems to be the pattern.
On the other hand.... Part of her "counter-proposal" was a reduction in the amount of child support by roughly $1,000. This figure was based on an absurd computation of what my income "might be" (yeah, and if I lived among the clouds on the top of Candycane Mountain in the Kingdom of Daisies, I'd have a pony, too). So by dam if she didn't actually low-ball her most recent support check! Without so much as a howdyedo, let alone notification of the Mouthpiece.
So my guy got every bit as p*ssed as me and went to court.
Whoa, Nelly! All of a sudden in the past 24 hours her lawyer -- and Herself -- have been Sunshine and Roses! Goshomighteeogollygeewhillikers, how they'd like to cooperate! Hey, Mouthpiece Guy, can we, like, Totally Mega Cooperate?
It's so over-the-top that the Mouthpiece actually forwarded one of her lawyer's e-mails to me with the subject line: "Obsequious Much? LOL."
So that was a Total Smackdown, and that's where it stands right now.
And no, @Gypsy, I'm not responding to her nastygrams. I provide factual responses where required otherwise nada.
It's still hard to comprehend that these women that we spent decades with have become what they have...huh?
It is for me.
I'm involved in a really nasty thing also Smiley.
I wouldn't wish this crap on Hitler!
The supreme act of courage is that of forgiving ourselves. - Kauffman
Anyway, I'm glad you showed up again. And I'm glad you're surviving!
Smiley!
Good to see ya... HERE!!
Not good to read the update...
She is a witch, eh?
LOVE THEMSELVES!! They are, seriously, sitcom material! The pics, the breakfasts, the outfits! LoL
I'm so glad this situation hasn't spoiled you for them.
HUGS
Try spashing some water on her...she just might melt! lol
kat
It's so over-the-top that the Mouthpiece actually forwarded one of her lawyer's e-mails to me with the subject line: "Obsequious Much? LOL."
Triggered a great memory for me,
The Grandmother Song Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.
Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbors,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.
Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don't know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.
Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Get all excited and go to a yawning festival.
O.K. everybody!
Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.
Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
(O.K. everybody on this!)
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbors,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.
(Let 'em hear you outside!)
Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
(Everybody sing!)
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don't know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.
(Ladies only)
Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
(Now the men)
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
(Everybody)
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Go into a closet and suck eggs.
"I'll take synonyms of "suck up" for $500 Alex."
It's so over-the-top that the Mouthpiece actually forwarded one of her lawyer's e-mails to me with the subject line: "Obsequious Much? LOL."
Triggered a great memory for me,
The Grandmother Song Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.
Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbors,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.
Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don't know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.
Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Get all excited and go to a yawning festival.
O.K. everybody!
Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.
Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
(O.K. everybody on this!)
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbors,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.
(Let 'em hear you outside!)
Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
(Everybody sing!)
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don't know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.
(Ladies only)
Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
(Now the men)
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
(Everybody)
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Go into a closet and suck eggs.
"I'll take synonyms of "suck up" for $500 Alex."
Ahh, Steve Martin! My fave!!!
Puppy
This figure was based on an absurd computation of what my income "might be" (yeah, and if I lived among the clouds on the top of Candycane Mountain in the Kingdom of Daisies, I'd have a pony, too).
Yeah, it's called "imputing income," and it IS perfectly legal. But it has to be quantified.
ARE you under-employed, SP?
There's only two ways I've heard of it being done:
1. They can generically impute 40 hrs/week x minimum wage to low-skilled, unemployed folks, without having to prove anything.
2. They can hire an Occupational Evaluator -- at their own expense -- to demonstrate to Hizzoner/Heronner that ol' SP's skills are worth "$X", and there are, in fact, jobs within your area PAYING "$X", and they are reasonably available. You know, the ol' infield-fly rule: has to be "catchable with ordinary effort."
Unless they can PROVE you are
a) qualified for higher-paying jobs; and
b) turning them down (or not trying to find them),
in my opinion, they don't have a case.
Puppy
P.S. Just pray to God Himself that they don't submit into evidence your WRITING, b/c it's worth gold.
Am I under-employed? Yes. In the sense that I could earn 10-15% more with my skillset in a different field. The court's offset, though, is that by moving to that field the children would have to be cared for every night by a sitter/nanny -- it is my "under-employment" that facilitates my picking them up, doing their projects, making their dinners, etc. The Mouthpiece's take is that the court won't sacrifice the kids' interests for a max 15% reduction in Herself's monthly check-writing. I could earn considerably more by leaving the area and surrendering custody, but of course that's not on from the court's POV. And then there's those dozens of e-mails from Herself over the years saying "whatever you do, don't take a better-paying job, because then the kids would be screwed."
Gotcha.
Do you still have those e-mails?
Interesting Smiley. My W makes $12k more a year than me but has to work 60 hours a week to do it, including late nights, early mornings and Saturdays. My hope is that I'll get joint physical custody because my job is 37.5 hours a week, I can do it from home when the girls are sick or have days off and I can adjust my schedule to fit theirs.
My first mediation on the topic is coming up April 7.
Do you still have those e-mails?
Yes, e-mails saved. Benefits of obsessive backing-up habits.
Funny about your underemployment.
How her bonuses handled?
*hugs*
Ah, bonuses. Big bone of contention. Ignoring it until The Mouthpiece has an answer.
Hey here's something funny. Not funny "ha-ha," but...funny.
She wigged out at me today, first on e-mail and then calling the house 7 times until I finally had to pick up rather than deal with the kids' asking why I was ignoring Mommy (caller i.d.).
I had the
nerve. The
audacity. The utter and complete lack of
respect. The
BALLS!
To what? To steal all her money? To spy on her with my surplus NSA Mega-Spy-Satellite system? To hire a P.I. to follow her?
No, friends -- worse.
Far worse.
To plan something for myself on Mother's Day so the kids could spend it with........ their mother.What an a**hole! What an unreliable inflexible piece of sh*t I am! Don't I know she has plans??!?? She bought a plane ticket?!? She's going Somewhere to meet Someone?!?
Who do I think I am thinking the kids will spend Mother's Day with their mother?!?!?So I'd better change my plans or take them with me or she's just going to leave them with a babysitter for 3 days because there's
NO WAY IN HELL she's taking her kids. On Mother's Day.
Which she missed nearly all of last year, because she was out of town and didn't get back until late.
And there was no Thanksgiving with her for them last year (out of town).
And she was on an overseas adventure for the Girl-Child's birthday this year.
And she didn't see them for Valentine's Day, because she was out of town.
And she's out of town for Easter.
And
I'm the a**hole. Sheesh.
Oh and get this -- "this wouldn't have even happened, and I'd have my plans happy in my head, if it wasn't for your stupid demand that I put things in writing when I send custody calendars! You and your stupid e-mail! If it wasn't for e-mail we would probably have gotten back together last fall!"
Well - consider
THAT bullet dodged!
Hey SP,
Sorry for the drama you're going through.
I've never posted to you before and I'm not sure where you are in the process, but just an observation - be careful with all that righteous indignation. You don't want to end up like one of those sea-birds after the Exxon Valdez. Those reactions have a way of sticking with you and gumming up everything. And trust me, no new companion wants to get near you when you're covered in goo.
As hard as it is, especially in the face of batchit craziness, you have to find a way to move forward and concentrate on yourself and what you have control over. Learn how to shed it off your back. Otherwise you'll drown.
lodo
Good advice, lodo, thanks. Just to be clear, all that about nerve and audacity and being an inflexible a**hole and the like - that was all stuff SHE said - I mean, really, can you possibly wrap your head around this? She's gone apes*t at the idea of spending Mother's Day as a mother. Ho - lee - sh - it. Her mind has wandered off the map. She's gone and got herself a head full of bad wiring. I had to laugh a second ago because I suddenly remembered this thing she said - how dare I go and drop Mother's Day on her like this? Now I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and this is about the karazeeeiest stuff I've ever seen.
SP, It's all her choice how she wants to spend Mother's Day. I understand it's not normal or what you want. Her choice, choices have costs let her own it. It's just a day on the calender, Mothers Day is celebrated on different days all around the world. Let your kids pick a alternative day if they want.
Cheers
ps Love the Major Kong quote.
Hey Smile Guy..
Like my lawyer told me, "You have no control over how little time your spouse wants to spend with the children."
I am familiar with the wigging out. This guy is now more or less shunned by his children, a father in name only. Or a father of occasional 2 minute phone calls, holiday diner breakfasts with an occasional one thrown in.
Do not expect that what is important to you is important to her. Do not do her thinking for her.
Document her recreational travel time and how it coincidences with meaningful dates.
Keep track of everything.
She's nasty. The former spouse is nasty. And each feels justified by their behavior. Bullies, those who feel hidden shame, can be like that.
She and her lawyer respond to threats, being called into court. You are not a victim. Talk to your lawyer about strategies to deal with your adversary based on their experiences.
In the end, I receive 25% of his bonuses along with the basic alimony. Being underemployed, as you can show, is a reflection of how to parent your children as a family. The childcare would probably even out the increase in pay when all factors are taken into account. And the children lose, something in theory the courts have to see happen.
If venting as a funny guy helps you, keep doing it. But if it eats at your craw, learn to let it go. It's tough but eventually leads you on the road to health.
Only you can be the parent you want the children to have. No one else.
*hugs*
@Coach and @Gypsy - I know I can't make her do anything. I just find it mystifying - honestly, I just don't get it. Plus I know how it's going to impact the 2 kids. They already complain about being 2nd-class citizens to her (not that they use that term, but they have the concept down). And yes - her choice and choices have consequences. I just hate that there's so much collateral damage.
Do you still have those e-mails?
Yes, e-mails saved. Benefits of obsessive backing-up habits.
Ahh yes. "Always be in the superior knowledge position," I always say!
Puppy
@Coach and @Gypsy - I know I can't make her do anything. I just find it mystifying - honestly, I just don't get it.
My guess is, that these dates remind her of what a horrible mother she is, a characterization which I would personally be most slow to contradict.
Puppy
A colleague asked me if STBX has a substance-abuse problem today. I'd never thought of thinking that. But a fella he knew with a Wayward Walkaway Wife who cycled the same way STBX does later discovered that his Former was a raging, but closeted, alcoholic. Hmmm.
I mean, it gets bad around these travel times of hers.
I had to kick her a** a couple times in the past 48. First, even in the wake of the 7 insane phone calls, she launched her usual e-mail fleet -- complaining this time, if you can credit it, for my "total unwillingness to communicate."
Button, consider yourself pushed. So I wrote:
You complain that I'm "non-communicative" and that "all of this" could be "taken care of so easily just by talking" instead of my "stupid" insistence on using e-mail. You might be correct -- at some future date.
I can assure you, however, that will not happen, ever, until the personal attacks stop -- and stop completely. Not some of them -- all of them.
You try to dismiss this as just "letting off steam" -- "haven't you ever said things when you're angry?" you asked. Yes; yes, indeed I have, but I work -- and work hard -- at getting the upper hand on that every single day. Forgive my saying so, but from my POV you don't appear to work on it at all.
You have contempt for me -- I get it. You've said so on a number of occasions, and I've heard you. But keep your contempt to yourself.
What the constant jabs and insults and attacks accomplish is to so completely poison the interaction that the likelihood I will ever want to interact with you on any level in the future is approaching zero.
But if you actually do want to interact with me on some level in the physical, as opposed to the electronic, world then you should be absolutely clear on this point:
That will not happen, and it will not happen on your terms, as long as your terms are that you continue to lash out at me at will.
A psychologist named Schnarch wrote something I've taken as a little Life Rule: You don't have to believe anything until you experience it.
Those are my terms. When and if I have experienced your sincere desire to interact in a more human -- and more humane -- way, I'll believe it. Until then I will continue to believe what I have experienced -- that you regard me as little more than an enemy -- and I will communicate accordingly.
She whined in reply, "I don't see how you can ask me not to attack you when you're attacking me. I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around. Well no one tells me what to do -- I do what I want."
So after I did the Tex Avery spit-take again -- and re-read my note to be sure I hadn't accidentally written "I can't get over the fact that you're with lots of other men now and just love slutting around" -- I kicked a little more a** and a little harder. I really ought to get a tattoo that reads, "Born for Schadenfreude." I know I shouldn't have done, but f*ck it -- what's she going to do, divorce me?
Well I'm happy to apologize for creating the impression you were being attacked. I have nothing to attack you for.
Really, all I feel for you is pity. You're a cheater and a liar, and as you said so often, once a cheater, always a cheater. All of the men who you slut around with are going to know you're a cheater and a liar and so none of them will ever fully trust you.
At some point you'll want a relationship, and because you're a cheater and liar, you know better than anyone how easy it is to deceive someone who cares about you -- and so you will never be able to trust any man you're involved with, because you'll never be able to say with confidence that he isn't deceiving you. You've demonstrated just how easy it is to get away with it. So every relationship you ever have for the rest of your life is going to be under a cloud of distrust and uncertainty.
And I just find that pitiable. It really does suck to be you.
And how did she respond? She cycled right back into the manic, "polite," "positive" STBXMRSSP.
Which is just frickin' eerie.
Well.. at least you know what she responds to: Rap her knuckles, she behaves... for a little bit.
And she really has boundary issues on personal information. I guess it's easier to focus on HER than the family, i.e., her children.
Y'all do love to fight. The former spouse sends me incredibly rude stuff. I'll either ignore it, discredit it using the divorce decree or address it if it's valid. It's a hard thing to do, because it does get me angry and my goat at times.
What stops me? Well one thing is knowing you only get dirty when fighting with someone who's slinging sh!t. And that being cruel and vindicative only makes me feel worse. That little rush isn't worth the spew that comes back or the acid in my stomach.
Next time try not responding to buttons being pushed. Because she's getting what she wants. A reaction from you. That she can still tweak you... hurt you... control you.
*hugs*
Yeah, I swear, Gypsy -- she's a 46-year-old adolescent. Apparently she also starts to behave when the Mouthpiece tells her lawyer "get your client on a leash or I'll go to court for a restraining order."
I was talking to the Mouthpiece yesterday, and I said how it mystified me that the person who WANTED OUT would be the one to go so far off the map. And the Mouthpiece smiled and said there's not a dam thing about D that makes sense -- and he's got plenty of Walkaway clients who do the same, whacked-out, nutty things as STBX.
Which floored me -- you mean, I'm out there, driving on the freeways every day surrounded by these people??? Talk about scary!
And yeah -- she can't keep her personal information to herself. But the best part is, if I make any reference to it ("don't forget to get the Girl Child a souvenir from Whereverville [when she's leaving on one of her frequent flier sexfests]") she'll get huffy: That's none of your business!
Wack, meet O.
Wow...this is like watching a really bad reality show... Cougar's Round the World in 80 Days Sextravaganza or something!
She does push the batchitt levels to full throttle now doesn't she??
A colleague asked me if STBX has a substance-abuse problem today. I'd never thought of thinking that. But a fella he knew with a Wayward Walkaway Wife who cycled the same way STBX does later discovered that his Former was a raging, but closeted, alcoholic. Hmmm.
I've always felt, from reading all of your well-documented interactions with her, SP, that it's either substance abuse or some sort of mental health issue.
She just ain't right.
Puppy
Pup,
What do you think is wrong with my H?
poet
I've always felt, from reading all of your well-documented interactions with her, SP, that it's either substance abuse or some sort of mental health issue.
She just ain't right.
When the former spouse dropped the bomb, I was concerned he was in a pre-manic state, which he's experienced in the past. I asked if he considered it. He said no he was fine.
I later asked my lawyer if based on the former spouse's mental history if he could be evaluated before the process went any farther. Nope!
Doesn't matter if you're stable or unstable... divorce is a free for all... well, except emotionally and financially for the parties and families involved.
*hugs*
>>"Wack, meet O."<<
Hard to tell what makes STBX spin as she does. I do think there is definitely something amiss for her to leave a man like you -- Handsome, incredibly intelligent, athletic, loyal & a great father.
All in all, it smacks of her attempting to regain control back in the R. You're wise to keep it on your terms & communicate accordingly, although it does appear to be a little easier on you when you ignore the bait. Easier said than done, when, as you say, there's "collateral damage."
>> "I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around."<<
Even though that's just blow'n smoke, it's just plain mean.
Best,
Sunny
"I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around. Well no one tells me what to do -- I do what I want." - Mrs.STBXSP
That's just mean, and if true, it's an example of a character disorder.
"I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around. Well no one tells me what to do -- I do what I want."
Thanks to email, she's given you some pretty damning stuff to document! Pair the above with her Mother's Day tirade, and it will be abundantly clear to anyone you show it to (say, a judge) that she does whatever she wants IRREGARDLESS OF THE EFFECT ON THE KIDS.
Priceless.
Quite a while ago, in my original series of posts, both
@Gypsy and
@Kettricken hit the nail on the head: She's a 40-something adolescent.
Now
@Generosity said some nice things about me (and when really attractive women say nice things about you
you'd better appreciate it and live up to it), but I clearly (as laid out in excruciating detail in my very first thread a year ago) had no small number of shortcomings that led to the D-cisive moment.
I can certainly say I'm better off as a person now as a result of the journey so far, so in that sense I'm a DB Success. I really do have a sense of myself and my capabilities now that I didn't before.
More importantly, I have more information. STBXMRSSP's done and said a lot of bizarro things, and now I know things about her and about me (I mean, you can't help but learn something when, in the middle of an otherwise ordinary tirade she blurts out "and none of this would have happened if you'd just taken the chance I gave you to get back together with me!" ["Um, what? When? Where? Did I miss it in the middle of the spitting and the slapping and the Signore Schmuckatelling?"])
As these things go, her story has evolved over time, all of which adds information, and more information is always useful (to me).
@Gypsy noted above that we both like to fight. I don't like to fight, but I definitely don't like letting her get away with things, and these days I don't fight so much as I end fights. I'm sort of practicing the
jeet kune do of divorce-busting.
JKD was Bruce Lee's marital arts innovation -- it was like krav maga before there was krav maga -- street-fighting style, or the style of no style.
BTW, I'm not a martial artist. I've always been interested in how artists (append the modifier of your choice -- musical, dance, etc.) see the world -- what the source of their art is. So though my brother got into martial arts as a result of watching "Enter the Dragon," I was more interested in how Bruce Lee thought about what he did.
Here's what he wrote:
Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy...a man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it [I used to think about this when I'd read "that's not true DB'ing" or "MWD says..."] He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound... He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.So for the "JKD man" (it was the Sexist '60s, after all), the "true" martial art was just doing what you had to do, with a minimum of energy.
That was my DB mistake for the longest time -- I was putting too much energy into it. I really started to do well (IMO, anyway) when I stopped putting energy into it and just started flowing, Tao-like.
So like Bruce Lee, when she attacks instead of defending against the attack, I just turn the attack against her and let her defeat herself. The other day, in the midst of a lambaste-a-thon, she said (we'd met at the school for parent-teacher conferences), "Well? Are you just going to stand there? Don't you feel anything about what you've done?" [BTW, the current story is that (again) the D is all my fault.]
SP: "Yeah, I feel something. I feel sorry for you. You lied and you cheated, and because you're a liar and cheater, you know how easy it is to deceive someone who trusts you, and so you'll never trust anyone you're with because you'll never be sure he isn't lying and cheating on you. You'll never have a trusting relationship again. How sad."
The air went out of her, and that was it. I'd written that to her, but apparently
hearing it from me, in my normal, balanced voice was a real blow. Jeet kune do.
So I'm just deflecting her blows, stepping aside from her attacks, letting her spend the energy while I conserve mine for the fights that matter (i.e., the fight for my fair share of the community asset pie).
But I'm also a lot more serene about STBX. I don't think there's "really" anything wrong with her. What I think -- total speculation -- might be going on is that the cork is off the bottle in a way. She was not -- not in the 20+ years I knew her -- what you'd call a self-reflective person. I don't think she'd ever really given herself, her mind, her desires, etc., much systematic thought at all.
This is something all the information I've acquired from experience of her in the past year has given me and, in a weird way, I'm grateful for it. Knowing it, I know that had I "succeeded" in busting the divorce during '09, I would have been the one who had grown and she would have still been "her" -- which would have simply been a recipe for another D-Day, IMO.
So the cost of an explosion of feelings / emotions / thoughts / experiences in an unreflective person -- mandatory self-reflection, if you will -- might be the kind of collateral damage she's been creating of late. Suddenly she's not who she believed herself to be, the world doesn't seem as tidy as it might have, and, having been so incurious about herself, I suspect she just doesn't have the tools to cope. Now with counseling maybe she's getting there, and for her sake -- and for the sake of Themselves more than anything else -- I sincerely hope she does.
So I'm just deflecting her blows, stepping aside from her attacks, letting her spend the energy while I conserve mine for the fights that matter (i.e., the fight for my fair share of the community asset pie).
Methinks that is very wise, SP.
Puppy
Smiley,
Don't know your story at all, I've read only this thread. STBXW seems to be hard set on a path of personal destruction. Her comments to you are filled with pain and self-loathing.
You seem to be doing pretty well with it, and have a good attitude. BUT, this is a bit arrogant: "This is something all the information I've acquired from experience of her in the past year has given me and, in a weird way, I'm grateful for it. Knowing it, I know that had I "succeeded" in busting the divorce during '09, I would have been the one who had grown and she would have still been "her" -- which would have simply been a recipe for another D-Day, IMO."
This is arrogant in that you assume you know her future, her strengths, her wishes, her capabilities when you assume your superiority. Now look, I think even from what I've read here that your assumptions aren't outlandish. But, they are assumptions all the same. The arrogance comes in with your apparent certainty and close-mindedness on the matter. WASs are often OOC. Your STBX certainly seems to be OOC. But NO ONE knows where she will be when she comes back to try to live a life she really wants. (And no, she doesn't want the life she has -- it is pretty apparent that she's hating herself pretty hard about it...) Anyway, WASs often surprise, often make incredible changes. It is because their selves are in such flux that they are all over the place to begin with. The flux sux. Then it stops. Who will she be on the other side. You don't know. She doesn't know.
Why bring this up? You are handling things pretty well. I certainly have no idea if your M can be saved or should be saved. But, what is pretty darn clear about you is this: You are not DONE.
People who are really done would not be having the interactions you are having with your W. Really. You are BOTH still all about each other to a fair degree. So, you aren't DONE, and she doesn't want a D.
My suggestion: drop the arrogance in favor of an open mind.
Maybe sooner or later you will both be in a place in which reconciliation is possible and a great M is possible. Maybe not. Just open your mind to that uncertainty.
I really like your Jeet Kune-Do comments!
And, I strongly agree that alot of DBers expend far too much energy on trying to DB. Personally, I think that really getting DB is detaching, understanding how detaching is necessary for intimacy, developing compassion, standing on your own two feet, dropping the drama, acceptance, and moving forward.
Keep up the Jeet Kune-Do. Martial Arts Detachment, lol, get MAD.
And, find that open mind.
Let me put it this way -- by virtue of my experience with STBX, the only reason she's had to even start therapy -- which only started 3 months ago -- was the fact that she was, by her own account, "totally lost."
Had she "moved back in" 6 months ago, presumably she wouldn't have been "totally lost" 3 months later (i.e., at the time she started counseling).
So it seems to me a reasonable conclusion that, in probabilistic terms, the M would have been every bit as much in jeopardy as it (apparently) was when she pulled the trigger. Frankly, I think she was looking for a time-out and then, once she recalibrated, I have every reason to believe she would have been right back on the OM Trail.
Maybe that's arrogant. I don't know. What I do know is she hasn't given me a single reason to believe that she's learned anything, discovered anything, changed anything, since the day she moved out. And I don't have time to go to that rodeo again.
Whoooaaaa.... chill for a minute.
I think you misunderstood me.
I mean to suggest that it would be good to have an open mind NOW. That is all. You aren't DONE. She doesn't want a D. The nail is not yet in the coffin. So, keep an open mind. That is all.
I didn't mean to say anything about how you handled things in the past. To me, it sounds like you've done pretty well, but I don't know your story. In any case, I certainly don't think that taking a crazy woman back into your house 6 months ago would have been a good idea for either of you. Indeed, it sounds quite the opposite. Given her behavior, your assessment that you would have been merely a timeout from her wayward ways looks spot on.
And, I didn't mean to say anything about the timeline for a D. I don't think you should stop your D process, which you seem to be handling capably, the more you leave it to the Ls, the better. It is business. Period. She is NOT now doing the things that she would need to do to make reconciliation possible. Quite the contrary I'd say.
But, again. You aren't DONE. Ask anyone who was really at peace with D, who is emotionally D, who is truly done with their marriage. You aren't there, not even close. Nor is your W. Nor does she want a D. So, keep an open mind. Don't paint yourself into a corner. That is all.
For instance, the next time she says that the D is your fault, say something like: "No, you chose to end our monogomous committed R. If you want to choose to try to repair it, I might be willing to consider that request, but only if XYZ." XYZ, of course, being very firm, clear boundaries. Notice this is not even a commitment to trying. All it says is that you might be open to the idea if certain things happened. It keeps your corners unpainted and your mind open. That's all.
Do I think you "should" reconcile? Do I think there is a good chance W will come around? Do I think that if she did your M could be a happy, healthy, vibrant, passionate M? I DUNNO. I HAVE NO CLUE. I DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY OPINION. I simply don't know enough of your story.
All I know is: Neither of you are done. Of that, I have no doubt. When neither of you are done, keeping an open mind and keeping your options open is a good path to choose.
Keeping an open mind, though, doesn't require not taking care of yourself or not moving forward. Just don't be so darn sure that you can predict the future with respect to who W will be and what choices she will make so perfectly, lol.
And I forgot to mention in my reply to your reply that I chose the word "arrogant" deliberately. My IC long ago used it with me when I was acting so very certain about XH's choices/wishes/future. I didn't like it when she used that term. Not one bit, lol.
But, she was right. And as that sunk in, it became very valuable to me. Too often, we are arrogant about how we think we know others, their thoughts, feelings, their choices, what will be good for them, blah blah blah. It is simple arrogance to think we know someone that well. It gets in the way of really knowing them at all. It gets in the way of being a good friend or partner. It gets in the way even of making our own choices properly, because too often we make choices based on our own arrogant beliefs about the inaccessible mental lives of others. Such beliefs are generally pretty darn error ridden.
And, DBers in particular, seem extremely prone to such arrogance. Even when they are blindsided, which most of us were, because we didn't know the WAS, DBers STILL continue to assume all kinds of things about the WAS's mind, heart, beliefs, dreams, choices, capabilities, etc.... You'd think the bomb would have been big enough to shake up that applecart of arrogant beliefs. But, no, it seems not. If anything, the LBS/WAS talk around here seems to strengthen that arrogance. The LBSs are holyfied, the WASs demonized, disrespected, dismissed... Thus, the arrogance becomes magnified.
Losing the arrogance is a HUGE step toward a better life and being a better partner capable of a much better kind of intimacy. Losing the arrogance is a huge part of detaching (along with finding genuine compassion.) Losing the arrogance is a necessary part of being able to find true forgiveness. Losing the arrogance makes our future much, much brighter in very many ways.
To be clear, I say all the above to explain my word choice, not because I think you are particularly arrogant, lol. From what I can see, you seem to be bypassing much of the overblown arrogance DB effect.
Overall, you seem to be doing very well in a very difficult situation. My suggestion is really pretty minor: don't presume to know the future when it comes to who W will be, keep an open mind.
Maybe this will help... You can shut the door on your M and hold your back against the door to keep in from opening. You can hold the back against the door by feeling certain about all kinds of horrible things about W and her future, things about which you can't really be certain at all. Or, you can close the door on your M, lock it securely with a key that represents respecting your boundaries, move forward with D, but allow in your own mind that W might turn out to have a copy of the key or not. You simply don't know right now.
P.S. I think your W must have been in incredible, soul-crushing pain to set herself on the path she is now on. It's very sad to see. I wonder why she was in such great pain to become someone that she hates so much... So much of her apparent lashing out at you is no more than self-flagellation. I hurt for you both.
Oldtimer, I like what you have to say here. Can you come by my thread in newcomers and give me your opinion? Thanks
Me? I'm done-er than last year's Christmas goose. Apart from saving the lives of Themselves, I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which I'd consider anything other than finishing this paperwork and breathing free air.
People who are done, who are emotionally D, who have moved on do not have the kind of email discussions or face-to-face discussions that you continue to have with W. That's just how it is.
But, think what you will, keep a closed mind if you must. It just takes a lot more energy, most of it negative, to keep the door closed on your M that way. How can you move forward with your back up against the door? Again, you can wear blinders to avoid surprises in the world to stay firmly on your path or you can take off the blinders, commit to your path, but allow that some surprises just might steer you in a different direction.
I think that fills my quota for questionable analogies today. From your posts, I'm pretty sure that you'll trip over your own open mind some day some distance down the road. Sometimes you trust a stranger and take a shortcut. Sometimes you don't.
Ack, yet another analogy. I'd really better stop now. Happy Spring!
Or, you can close the door on your M, lock it securely with a key that represents respecting your boundaries, move forward with D, but allow in your own mind that W might turn out to have a copy of the key or not. You simply don't know right now.
Ms ot.. That's just brilliant.
*hugs*
Hey Smile Guy..
Done-er.. eh?
Done is letting go, not going back for the last word.
Done is not telling the other who they are, how they should feel.
Done is not telling the other how you feel about them.
Done is "Hello", "Good bye"
Done is walking the walk, not dancing in minefields.
Done is not allowing inappropriate topics.
Done is civil.
Done is a reasoned response, not emotional.
Done is "I don't regret the time spent together, wish it could have worked. We're all moving forward."
Done is looking at the BIG picture.
Done is when the divorcing/former spouse's drama is no longer yours.
Done is letting go of the emotional hurt, the need to attack.
Done is leaving the bullshit behind.
You're a distinct individual, opinionated, intelligent, super dad.
Lock the door. Move forward. The less you think for her, the more you can live your life.
Or perhaps all of the above is "well done."
*hugs*
See, to me, "Hello, Goodbye" sounds not-done. It says "I can't talk about that."
I can talk about it with STBX all day long. I have no positive feelings for her at all. That part of my world exists without hue -- red-for-love; no green-for-jealousy; no black-for-anger. As I put it in my last thread, I'm beige; I beige her.
So if she asks a question - "why can't we be Teh Awesome Exes and hang out and stuff?" - I'm happy to provide answer: because I don't like you. I don't have Not-Like for you - I just don't have any interest in your existence as a human being apart from your role as my kids' mother.
[And memo to STBX, don't leave for a 7-day Foreign F*ck Fest and promise the kids you'll send them e-mails and pictures and let it now be the 7th day and be on your way to Humongous Foreign Airport for the flight Stateside and not have sent them a single thing, 'cause I'm not making excuses for you but I don't want to bad-mouth you to Themselves, either -- and they're pissed.]
And that, to me, is Done-ness. Doesn't mean I won't call her out on the Batsh*t Karazee - does mean I don't give a rat's a** why she's crazy or what she's hurting about. Maybe she is hurting; maybe she is confused. That's a problem.
But it's not my problem.
As my old Drill Sergeant used to say, where she's concerned it's a choice between hard-a** and bubblegum - and I'm fresh out of bubblegum.
There's a key to the cipher-lock of my heart, alright. And judging by my experience (cf, Schnarch Passionate Marriage) of Miss Someone these past 6 months, STBX wouldn't be likely to find it with a map, a compass, and a troop of Boy Scouts.
Why are others projecting THEIR definitions of "done-ness" onto ol' SP here?
It seems to me that the person in the best position to determine their level of done-icity is Smiley himself. He's always marched to his own drummer (no, SP, I'm not calling you "batchit crazy here
) ; so maybe he uses a different measuring stick for his heart's done-ness?
Puppy
Maybe its projection, maybe its clarity that comes with perspective gained only through experience.
Why are others projecting THEIR definitions of "done-ness" onto ol' SP here?
It seems to me that the person in the best position to determine their level of done-icity is Smiley himself. He's always marched to his own drummer (no, SP, I'm not calling you "batchit crazy here
) ; so maybe he uses a different measuring stick for his heart's done-ness?
Puppy
Awesome, awesome post, Puppy!
See, that's what's so cool about being an individual. We each have different experiences which shape our lives and reactions to said lives, loved ones, etc.
Love you, SP.
Love you, SP.
Love you more, Kimmie Lee!
I'm perfectly willing to take STBXMRSSP's word for it -- it was a mistake, right from the get-go. Okee-dokee. Checked that box. Lesson's been learned. Got me some Themselves who I wouldn't trade for the world out of it. So tie it off, cut it out, pack it with QuickClot, and drive on.
Why am I so arrogantly confident, oldtimer, that she holds no key to my heart and that I'm not Not-Done?
Because when I hear from her -- and, since she returned to Coastal City a whopping 24 hours ago, I can say with confidence that I haven't had more than, oh, a dozen e-mails and a half-dozen demands from her (and all of them in that irritating post-coital tone of hers) -- I hear a Stranger, and a Stranger I instinctively know is someone I wouldn't like.
A Not Good Person.
D7 is so agitated that she's started sleepwalking; S10 doesn't "know what the point of living is" in the wake of what his mother has done.
That is her gift to the family, for the sake of a couple nights' sweaty thrills with a man she no longer speaks to.
That is who she is. She is No Good At All. And frankly I'm starting to think she actually saved my life with this whole D thing.
Well given the latest update I would say you are definitely on the winning end, not that we didn't already know that! Better off, party of one....
However sounds like your kids are being traumatized by this, for lack of a better word being conjured by my brain at 1 a.m. ...
Action plan for son who doesn't know why he should live?? I know kids can be melodramatic but as a teacher I follow a lot of the news on kids who wind up taking their lives deliberately or accidentally (an 11 yr old in a town 90 miles from here accidentally died playing the 'choking game' on himself last week) because they feel there is no benefit to being alive...
Handle that sitch. I know you will...
SP,
D7 is so agitated that she's started sleepwalking; S10 doesn't "know what the point of living is" in the wake of what his mother has done.
I know you know this, SP; perhaps you're doing it already. But if not, counseling is called for here.
Don't send them. Bring them. The three of you together for family counseling. I did this shortly after D#1 (sigh) with my two boys, 13 and 15 at the time.
It was invaluable.
Hey SP..
You're the dad.
You love your children beyond comprehension.
Your kids know how to love through you.
You are their heart, their anchor, their safe place.
Their mom's actions reek of abandonment.
And you're left holding the cards.
And it's no longer time to "protect the mother image".
Actions bring their own consequences.
Her actions dramatically affect your children.
You're at the pulse point.
What is the best thing for your kids?
I struggled through my childhood because of the actions of my father. As a child I regularly choked myself with my jump rope, would leap off high places, pick fights with guys much bigger and stronger than me. As an adolescent I'd stretch out in the middle of the road, hoping to be run over. My mom saved me from climbing out a window (with a three story drop) when I was having a living dream. Apparently I'd been calling out, struggling to open the window and storm window. My mother got in just in time to pull me back from plummeting out. I don't remember a thing, but it traumatized her.
The difference is.. you're right there. You know the right thing to do for your children. How to keep them safe, the correct tools to use, when to bring in professionals, how to address it and support them through this process.
The safe, loving parent, the dad.
And being a Dad is more than enough because you and your kids are blessed to have each other.
*hugs*
Here's a question for the assembled singletudes - what sort of GAL things are you doing, post-D?
I still pursue the ones I started after recovering from the initial post-Bomb shock, but they're of a somewhat solitary nature - tennis, for example, is 1 on 1 generally. I don't have the financial wherewithal to join a tennis or golf or country club; I sort of live in the 'burbs, so there's no corner tavern to be Regular at; and of course I have Themselves 6 days out of 10. So I'm open to suggestions. My goal is to be more embedded in the community and to have fun. What do you(se) do?
I became active in my church and attended Bible studies, church services, choir, prayer group, small groups. I was like a little mini-Jesus for a while, at church more than He was!
I often took Yoga classes, dance classes (Latin Line Dance, no partner needed), cooking classes and stuff like that at the community centre. Part of my problem was I got way too active trying to build myself a new life and while adjusting to being newly single I may have burnt myself out! I was determined to re-build and was on a mission, now I've learned to mellow out a little and allow for down time...at least that's what I tell myself! Some people on the BB and in my non-BB life have tried Meetup.com, they have tons of groups for people who want to get together and they are based on an interest rather than just a bunch of people getting together trying to figure out what to say to each other. It might be worth a shot...and don't forget the ultimate male challenge, Ballroom dance lessons...remember what doesn't kill you will make you stronger!
Part of my problem was I got way too active trying to build myself a new life and while adjusting to being newly single I may have burnt myself out! I was determined to re-build and was on a mission, now I've learned to mellow out a little and allow for down time...at least that's what I tell myself!
I followed a similar path. I joined a very large evangelical church and then did their divorce rebuilding classes. I started a second job that took up a lot of the weekends. The money was good. I was out of town, busy, and not feeling sorry for myself. In the winter, though, without the weekend gig I kind of became Jim Carry in "The Yes Man" accepting every invitation, going out whenever there was something going on.
That really put me in a financial bind so I'm looking for more "less expensive" things to do. Today, I just went bikeriding and I'm going to a "game night" tonight through a Meetup.com group. I'm nervous about it. I'm an extrovert and outgoing, but just driving to a house where I won't know anyone is a little weird.
What's the focus of your Meetup group? Is it a topic you have some expertise or interest in?
Okay, yeah, now we're gettin' somewherez -- that's what I'm talking 'bout. Good tip on the Meetup.com, thanks for that.
(Church 'n' bible study....mmmmmmmm, not so much, what with me being the Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Fraternal Order of Heathen and all.)
Well, not to get preachy or anything, but I used to feel just as you do! Yet when my M went down the tube and at the same time my Dad came down with cancer, I had some hard thinking to do about life. Just like that I was about to lose two of the most important parts of my life. I realized that everything here today is just that here today, tomorrow it can all be taken away from us from an accident, a betrayal, an illness etc. I needed more than my intellectual arrogance to get me through life. I decided to actually check out church again, to put aside my little scorecard on Jesus and his followers and actually experience some spirituality. What I found was a place that talked about love and forgiveness, it wasn't the den of homo-haters and two faced hypocrites I thought I'd find. I used to believe that I nor anyone else needed some book written thousands of years ago to tell us what is right or wrong, we're beyond that. Uh uh, I've seen the damage that people do to each other and then twist it into somehow the "right thing" and now recognize we're just as naive and self serving as ever. The struggles people in the bible have are the same ones we struggle with today. And really look at them, Jesus was Lord of the Losers...that's my kind of crowd. So, if all I have to do is love my brother and try to lead a life that respects God and his goodness, then that's a jackpot to me...but that's my view, take it for what it's worth. How many Air Miles to Heaven did I just earn?
Don't get me wrong @whatisis, like Voltaire said I'd defend to the death your right to believe, but I don't. I was taught by Jesuits right through college, so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with the domain. For me it's pretty basic -- years of Latin mass to the contrary notwithstanding, I can't accept the premise of the divinity of Jesus nor the Jesuitical leap-of-faith required to get there.
I suspect the most I could cop to is a loosely Taoist or Buddhist sense of the inevitably of suffering and the purely transitory nature of human existence. I don't worry about the hereafter or the thereafter, full stop.
It's not that I reject religion. On the contrary, I think it's a fine thing and I have fine and good and deeply Christian, Jewish, and Muslim friends. I admire the faithful and respect their beliefs. I have a nice set of Olde Tyme Religion on the iPod (very good for working out), and can't think of many places to hear better music than an A.M.E. church on the south side of Big Midwestern City. But I enjoy it as music, not as a musical road to the Spirit -- if this were
The Blues Brothers,
I'd be Elwood, and not Jake (and you have to love that this
YouTube clip was taken from an Israeli T.V. station and so the captions are in Hebrew!).
It's not a question of "intellectual arrogance" or a belief that I know better than, or have no need for, some old book. I have no "feeling" about religion at all -- and that includes a(ny) feeling of need for...answers, rhyme and reason, help, protection, or any of the myriad other things one might seek in organized faith.
They say there are no atheists in foxholes, but I can't recall a single instance in 15 months in Iraq when even the faintest whiff of a desire or need to pray crossed my mind, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been in a church of any denomination in any capacity other than tourist since 1990: my wedding, three other weddings, and a presentation I did at Coastal City Presbyterian.
But that's neither here nor there. I'm glad it works for you and gives you a space and place to go.
I'm still getting my air miles, right?
Smiley, I don't know where you live but do you have a Unitarian Church in the area? That may be more to your liking. Google Unitarian Universalist, I used to be a Unitarian before coming to Christianity. Nice people and, depending on the size of the congregation, they may have some interesting activities to attend. Just a thought.
SP,
Here's a question for the assembled singletudes - what sort of GAL things are you doing, post-D?
I still pursue the ones I started after recovering from the initial post-Bomb shock, but they're of a somewhat solitary nature - tennis, for example, is 1 on 1 generally. I don't have the financial wherewithal to join a tennis or golf or country club; I sort of live in the 'burbs, so there's no corner tavern to be Regular at; and of course I have Themselves 6 days out of 10. So I'm open to suggestions. My goal is to be more embedded in the community and to have fun. What do you(se) do?
You describe my conundrum to a tee. So far, for me, reconnecting with old friends (have organized a mini H.S. Reunion weekend of my old crowd next month. Ten confirmed from all over the country) Two MeetUp groups (hiking and swing dancing). Same financial constraints, same 'burb constraints as you. Next step will probably be some volunteering.
But, hey, it's a
start.
How 'bout looking up a running club in your area? Or are you not running anymore? That would be fun...
I work at my local high school's track and field events. I am a timer for the 4 track meets in the spring (HS boy, HS girl, HS co-ed, and MS), and a course pointer (hey buddy, go that way!) for the one cross country meet in the fall...Timing is fun bc I get to hang with about a dozen other grownups making smart@ss comments for 4 hours....
If there is an activity that interests you, i.e. tennis, you could see if they need any help? Just a thought...
Okay, yeah, now we're gettin' somewherez -- that's what I'm talking 'bout. Good tip on the Meetup.com, thanks for that.
(Church 'n' bible study....mmmmmmmm, not so much, what with me being the Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Fraternal Order of Heathen and all.)
Yeah, they tend to frown on that sort of thing.
During my hellish time, SP, I joined a men's softball team, worked out at the gym and went out to the local irish pub with my buds for beers, which nicely canceled out all the health effects from the first two things.
Please take care of Themselves, as I know you will. This is concerning.
Puppy
Uh-oh. Looks like someone has broken STBXMRSSP's heart again. Total capitulation on child support - she gave up her line of defense on underpayment, paid the agreed amount and the difference she owed and then sent one of her patented nearly-kinda-sorta-almost-what-you-might-call-open poor, poor, pitiful me e-mails about how I was right way back when, she'll never have love in her life again and even though it's painful to look at photographs of us she's glad she remembers how love was and blahdee-blah-blah. The trick, as always, was to not spit on this...well, not an olive branch but a twig of an olive branch...while maintaining boundaries. As I put it to Miss Someone, I had to strike a balance between accessible - not locked away in angry isolation - and available - not creating the impression that she could just do the fall-back-guy/consolation prize thing at will. So acknowledged, validated, heard - but not reciprocated. Sounds like she's been listening to that EG Kight song again.
Uh-oh. Looks like someone has broken STBXMRSSP's heart again. Total capitulation on child support - she gave up her line of defense on underpayment, paid the agreed amount and the difference she owed and then sent one of her patented nearly-kinda-sorta-almost-what-you-might-call-open poor, poor, pitiful me e-mails about how I was right way back when, she'll never have love in her life again and even though it's painful to look at photographs of us she's glad she remembers how love was and blahdee-blah-blah. The trick, as always, was to not spit on this...well, not an olive branch but a twig of an olive branch...while maintaining boundaries. As I put it to Miss Someone, I had to strike a balance between accessible - not locked away in angry isolation - and available - not creating the impression that she could just do the fall-back-guy/consolation prize thing at will. So acknowledged, validated, heard - but not reciprocated. Sounds like she's been listening to that EG Kight song again.
It sounds like what you are saying you have to "do" and you can't "say" it.
It sounds like what you are saying you have to "do" and you can't "say" it.
Sorry, maybe it's me, but I can't figure out what that means.
"As I put it to Miss Someone, I had to strike a balance between accessible - not locked away in angry isolation - and available - not creating the impression that she could just do the fall-back-guy/consolation prize thing at will."
This is one of those things you just do, but you can't say. If you say it it will lose its effect.
A couple more of the odd-tone-emails from STBX yesterday, all quite unbidden and moderately unwelcome, but as per procedure I neither wanted to encourage them by receiving them warmly nor discourage what I think is probably some exercise from her therapist (share your feelings).
The way I look at it, whatever progress there is for STBX in therapy is hers alone to make, but I can at least not chuck a monkey wrench into things by acting like I'm spring-loaded to the A**hole position. So I just noted that I saw and read them, but one needed a somewhat bigger reply.
That one sort of lamented about my hating her and how unfair that is, projecting a lot of negativity onto me (a you this about me & and you that about me sort of thing).
So I briefly replied that no, I don't hate you, I don't anything you, I'm focused on shaping my life to meet my needs and achieve my goals and those of Themselves, and that's just how these things go down -- you have your world, I have mine, let's respect the boundaries, and everyone moves forward.
The response: Clearly you hate me because I want the boundary to include you and you refuse.
Hmmmm -- a rope! Pick it up?
Nahhhhhh. My brief reply: I hear that you perceive this to reflect my hating you. I stated my p.o.v., and you can take me at my word or not as you choose.
Silence, sweet golden silence, ever since.
Shanks, were you thinking that Miss Someone is STBXMRSSP? Miss Someone is my confidante -- not my ex.
@SP>>>"Hmmmm -- a rope! Pick it up?"
Yes, a rope. Doesn't surprise me, and probably not most of your thread followers.
Your response was well thought out (Dur...like you're able to have any other kind;-), maybe because you have "been to this rodeo before."
I know I made the mistake (many times), of jumping to pick up the rope, only to have it jerked away each time.
No doubt that there will be more opportunites to come, so you're able to sit back, relax, & enjoy the flight.
Sunny
The response: Clearly you hate me because I want the boundary to include you and you refuse.
Now WTF does
that mean??
Puppy
The response: Clearly you hate me because I want the boundary to include you and you refuse.
Now WTF does
that mean??
Puppy
No kidding!
That is some convoluted sh!t!!
I believe it means that most of his spouses ways are included within his boundaries, so that there is not a lot of overlap. She wants her own unique space and not to share with him.
SP,
as Generosity said, it doenst surprise me at all. It's just old news. Glad it doenst "touch you"...
K
Smiles - I rarely get anything remotely connected to your posts about your wife, because of HER, not you... so, I'm just here to smile, wave, and give you a pinch.
Now WTF does that mean??No kidding! That is some convoluted sh!t!!I believe it means that most of his spouses ways are included within his boundaries, so that there is not a lot of overlap. She wants her own unique space and not to share with him.This bad's on me -- wasn't clear.
Has anyone seen this "Cougar Town" show with Courtney Cox, the dark-haired lady from "Friends"? My mom was out here last week visiting the grands, and she loves it and insisted I partake -- I'd not seen it, but it was instructive in its own way.
The main character lady (Courtney Cox) is divorced, and her ex is the Standard Sitcom Issue
Cool, Comically-Hanging-Out-Around-Her-House-Mooching-Food, The-Only-Thing-Different-is-a-Piece-of-Paper-(except we don't sleep together [but stay tuned, maybe we still want to!])-Otherwise-We're-Just-One-Big-Happy-Family, Guffaw-Guffaw, Oh-What-A-Character, Ex-With-a-Heart-O'-Gold Dude (
as seen on T.V.!).
That's more or less what STBXMRSSP imagined it would be like, I think, in those dreamy pre-Bomb days/weeks/months as she was constructing The World's Most Perfect Divorce in the Secret World In Her Head.
What I took her to mean was that
her boundary extends so far out that
I'm inside it -- within limits, of course (
have cake; eat, too) -- so that by refusing to ride my Palomino unicorn into the bubble of post-marital wonderfulness that floats above the snow-capped Mountain of Bliss deep within the Rainbow Kingdom, the obvious conclusion is that I'm hating on her.
It's all good, though -- today she reverted to type and decided to bring some Olde Tyme Batsh*t Karazee instead (I want to be heard! I demand to be heard!). And, oddly enough, the OTBK is easier to deal with than her poor-poor-pitiful me routine.
So there I am tooling around the supermarket, looking for Mrs. Dean Wormer, and I got so dam fed up with the *bing* of my e-mail alert that I donned my rising sun headband, packed up my samurai sword, doffed my spew-gear, and prepared for the divine wind:
Enough's enough. You want to be sure you're heard? BE HEARD. Name the time, name the place. Bring as many members of Team STBX as you want. And lay it all out. Put it all down. Rant, rave, scream, curse -- whatever it takes. I won't defend, deny, denigrate; I won't contradict; I won't rationalize or explain or justify. And when you're done, and I acknowledge you've been heard, I leave -- full-stop -- and THAT'S IT. This is a one-time, all-or-nothing, alpha-to-omega offer -- take it or leave it -- so rehearse or bring note cards or an outline or whatever, because when the last minute ticks away, it's done. You will be heard. And afterward you carry on with your life, and you respect the fact that I'm doing the same -- not paying lip service but demonstrating by your actions. We'll communicate just fine when it's appropriate and necessary -- but it will be all business. STBX, here's your chance.Called her bluff, and she'll capitulate and quiet down for a while, and the cycle will start anew. Hopefully, though, the paperwork will be gavelled, stamped, and filed by the next time the Crazy Train is about to pull into the station.
No doubt that there will be more opportunities to come, so you're able to sit back, relax, & enjoy the flight.so, I'm just here to smile, wave, and give you a pinchGlad it doesn't "touch you"Well isn't that nice? Ladies, you three are some of the Sweetest Sweeties in Sugar-town!
The response: Clearly you hate me because I want the boundary to include you and you refuse.
Now WTF does
that mean??
Puppy
No kidding!
That is some convoluted sh!t!!
To quote James Brown from
The Payback, "I don't know karate but I know Karazee."
I know it allll tooooo welll, @Coach, LOL!
Another day has dawned here in Coastal State, the lunch bell is ringing, and all around there is still Sweet Golden Silence.
Me likey.
Ladies, you three are some of the Sweetest Sweeties in Sugar-town!
OK, Smiles - Now you're f*ckin' w/my image. I'm trying to be kickas$.
A day of silence and peace, huh? GOOD!
I'm coming out by you next month for work. If I wasn't triple scheduled, I'd make you take me for a run and some of those fancy pancakes? LOL You are a great dad!
Whatisis, just go to Meetup.com and enter where you live and it'll search for Meetup groups in your area or you can even start one.
I live in a smaller metropolitan market -- about 500,000 people -- so the number of Meetup.com groups available to me is pretty small. I found one singles group and it was a Christian singles group and everyone appears to be older than I am. I also found a Dining Out group with about 90 members. Problem there, if it's a problem, is that I do have my girls a lot, work out of town a bunch in the summer and have put myself on a budget to limit the number of times I spend money at restaurants.
Still, the Dining Out group looks like it's scheduling weekly $5 Club movie and dining nights on Fridays. If I run into an empty Friday then I'll try it.
Well.
Well, well.
Well, well, well.
Guess I sort of understand why STBXMRSSP has been so loopy lately. Apparently they're laying off at work, cutting salaries for those that remain, and STBX has discovered the not-wisdom of having rushed out and bought her own place last summer -- it's hard to carry two Coastal State mortgages.
So now, my lawyer has been advised by her lawyer that, no matter what else happens, the house has to go on the market now, like tomorrow, because STBX has spent every penny she has and now is paycheck-to-paycheck.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off. I see no reason to commit to staying in Coastal State. There's no way in h*ll I can afford a place here on my meager academician's payroll. Of course, the custody thing is problematic -- I hate the idea of the old-fashioned 9 months with mom, 3 months with Dad, but I sure do like the idea of pulling up stakes and homesteading back in Big Midwestern City.
F*ck me, this just keeps getting better and better.
Smiles -
Wow. Get it now, huh?
homesteading back in Big Midwestern City.
If the time comes, I can help!
That is where I be, kind of. Oh, and from the sounds of your academic focus, I'm from a diff study.... But, my academicians know your academicians from around town. Just yell!
Midwest is a great place to be! I don't envy your postion though Smiley.
I concur. The Midwest is so...reasonable. And friendly (former spouses excepted, of course). And down to earth.
Hey Smile Guy..
Isn't there something about the date of separation which pertains to the marital assets at that time?
Why should the marital home have to be sold because the divorcing spouse made a poor financial decision. Why not her current abode? After all, where would the kids be? Is it like a guy telling a judge.. "Well, uh, I bought the boat of my dreams to express my renewed sense of freedom (exclusive of the marital slice funds) and now I can't afford it so sell the house and I'll keep the boat?
And wouldn't the custody be more like SP 70% and her 30%?
Right now I just don't have answers. Characteristically, this all came up on a weekend. Also characteristically, the only reason it came up at all was that I'd happened to check in with the lawyers and they'd just got the document but were half-way out the door. Every time she's done that -- had the document "provided" between 16.30 and 17.00 on a Friday. Keeeeee-rist.
The more I think about it, the more frustrated I get, but instead of letting that frustration morph into lashing-out-anger at STBX I'm using it to fuel a solution. This is one of those situations where @Coach keeps talking about leading. Well, f*ck it, fine then. I'll lead. She can keep making messes, and I'll keep finding ways out of them for Themselves and Smiley's Person Himself. I always admired Patton. I'm not interested in holding my ground. I am advancing constantly.
I'm glad you're taking the Patton route with this, because I can certainly see where the frustation could morph into anger pretty quickly.
I know going back to Big Midwestern City is sounding pretty good to you about now, I just can't picture you leaving Themselves while you do it. I also can't picture STBX jumping at the chance to be a full-time single mother.
I don't have enough knowledge of the legal side of STBX keeping her new purchase, while you would have to sell the family home to keep it all right-side-up. Gypsy may be on to something though, it may be her condo that goes.
Nice of her to keep the messes coming to keep you at attention
at all times!
@SP"...using it to fuel a solution."
There's this great coastal city down south that I know about. Really friendly people, actually not as expensive as one might think, and some really good schools. (Since everyone is throwing you their pitch:)
Hang in there SP!
Sunny
God help me, I do love it so....
Why, Sunny! You seem to know a lot about this southerly city in Coastal State! Hmmmmm!
I'm a bit pressed for time but integrity demands that this be got out. I ran into STBXMRSSP quite inadvertently this morning while she was dropping Themselves off at school. After a brief snit-fit, an odd quiet descended upon her. Something was on her mind. So in Big Midwesten City fashion, I asked her to pull up a stoop.
It appears that rather a great deal of the insanely ludicrous stuff that she has been doing on the legal front is being generated not by her but by her lawyer-who also appears to be disregarding a lot of STBX's expressed preferences - much to STBX's frustration - so much so in fact that if we don't reach resolution soon STBX is going to fire her and represent herself.
So perhaps I have been unduly harsh and critical of STBX.
Anyway, more to come.
Or, maybe she's delusional, or simply lying about that.
Puppy
She can also say NO to her lawyers recommendations, it is possible!
Hey Smile Guy..
And so the cycle begins again.
Remember.. this is the same mother who ignobly ignores her children. This is the same woman who's moaned about the near occasion of paying alimony even before having a lawyer. This is a woman who may be feeling the financial pinch of impulsive major expenditures.
And you are the same guy who likes to fix, who likes to protect.
Maybe she does have a wacky lawyer who's out of control. And unless she pulls back her pit bull then how much different would the settlement be?
My lawyer always told me to listen but make no agreements. You went out of your way in a down homey manner to provide an opportunity for dialog. Yet she still is your adversary. She still has an agenda that has not changed.
And the round and round dance y'all have continues.
*hugs*
Perhaps I wasn't writing in English. That happens from time to time.
I said nothing about fixing, nothing about protecting.
I simply suggested that IF I have been unduly harsh and have (a) reacted to and/or (b) kvetched about here things she was advised to do or that were done in her name, then perhaps I should take care to be (more impeccable?) (less peccable?) in my posts. She manages to annoy quite succeaafully on her own - nothing to be gained by tarring her with someone else's brush. As for saying "no," we are talking about a textbook Enabler here.
@Puppy: Rest assured that, as much as it pains me to quote Ronald Reagan, my watchword will be "trust, but verify."
LMAO, SP.
yeah, my favorite quote. I know that was hard for you -- thanks for throwing me a conservative bone.
SP,
...as much as it pains me to quote Ronald Reagan, my watchword will be "trust, but verify."
I remember loving that turn of phrase at the time: it sounded uncharacteristically reasonable and benign; the press loved it and jumped all over it; it even
rhymed in Russian, and - best of all - when parsed, it really meant, "Don't trust."
I'd prefer this rendition of a fav..
"STBXW! Tear Down That Wall!!!"
iwitw,
I'd prefer this rendition of a fav..
"STBXW! Tear Down That Wall!!!"
It's early in the day but for
that one, You get today's
Belly-Laugh Of The Day Award! (And, oh, if only they would tear down that carefully-constructed wall and come back out for just a bit and see what's changed . And what could be (better) again (sigh)).
"For when love dies, it is not in a moment of angry battle,
Nor when fiery bodies lose their heat.
It lies panting, exhausted
At the bottom of a wall it could not scale."
Robert A. McCray
"For when love dies, it is not in a moment of angry battle,
Nor when fiery bodies lose their heat.
It lies panting, exhausted
At the bottom of a wall it could not scale."
Robert A. McCray
Yeah.
No sh!t.
When You're Alone
Bruce Springsteen
Times were tough love was not enough
So you said sorry Johnny I'm gone gone gone
You said my act was funny
But we both knew what was missing honey
So you let out on your own
Now that pretty form that you've got baby
Will make sure you get along
But you're gonna find out someday honey
CHORUS
When you're alone you're alone
When you're alone you're alone
When you're alone you're alone
When you're alone you ain't nothing but alone
Now I was young and pretty on the mean streets of the city
And I fought to make 'em my home
With just the shirt on my back I left and swore I'd never look back
And man I was gone gone gone
But there's things that'll knock you down you don't even see coming
And send you crawling like a baby back home
You're gonna find out that day sugar
CHORUS
I knew some day your runnin' would be through
And you'd think back on me and you
And your love would be strong
You'd forget all the bad and think only of all the laughs that we had
And you'd wanna come home
Now it ain't hard feelings or nothin' sugar
That ain't what's got me singing this song
It's just nobody knows baby where love goes
But when it goes it's gone gone
CHORUS
When You're Alone
Bruce Springsteen
That's a good'un, pdt
Well it's a good thing Reagan was president, I guess, and that I trusted but verified. The money part of STBX's story was basically true (if not completely so), but the narrative within which it was situated was bullsh*t. After accidentally running into her at the elementary school, I had her come in the kitchen, and she sort of laid it down - seasoned with a few (ignored) barbs - and the upshot was: "Be clear about this - I don't want to take a bath on this house, and I don't think you do either. But by the same token, I don't want to hold on to this house longer than necessary because I absolutely don't want to live here ever again - it's just got too many associations."
In other words, stick to plan. I live here with Themselves until The Boy leaves 5th grade next year.
Fast forward to yesterday. Kids back from their mother's house. The Boy: "Dad, what's a c*cks*cker?"
SP Himself: Uh {thought bubble: what did he say? What?? Emergency! Call the Red Cross! Call the National Guard! Ah-ooga! Ah-ooga! Go to Defcon 2!}. Yes. Well. You, er, see, ah, son. That's not the kind of thing we, ah, um, say in polite society. Where {the hell / on earth / for the gods' sake} did you hear such a thing?
The Boy [in that story-telling sing-song kids have]: Last night? When The Girl-child and I were playing "Battleship"? Mommy was talking on the phone? And she started yelling? And she said that she wants her house back from that - that word? - because why was she supposed to move out?
SP: Ah. Well. I'm sure I don't know what your Mom was referring to, but that's the kind of language adults sometimes use, and it's just best if you delete it from your mind.
Well, well, well. Set up like a bowling pin. Trust, but verify. The Mouthpiece will work this issue from now on.
But for the Board - does the lying ever stop?
No, the lying will not stop.
WAS's can be the most worthless pieces of sh!t on the face of the earth.
Hey Smiley Himself,
@SP>>>"But for the Board - does the lying ever stop?"
I believe it becomes habit. In my case, it hasn't stopped yet, although, I can't really say it would never. Hence the need for; "Trust, but verify."
Happy to see that you're sticking with your plan... a little sad that you're more-than-likely not going to be heading in a baja direction for the next coupla years
Sunny
Hmmmmm...does the lying stop? I seriously doubt it. I think they believe their lies and rely on them to validate their actions. And my X (the one who got married to OW 14 days after the divorce and will still swear they were just friends) actully said to me a few weeks ago he NEVER lies. I literally laughed out loud. "You keep telling yourself that Pinocchio!"
But for the Board - does the lying ever stop?
I don't think it comes down to 'lying'. My divorcing spouse no longer had my back. He no longer had my best interests at heart.
A civil (or not so civil) demeanor evolved with face to face conversations in order to facilitate the best outcome for him. If that didn't work, he'd manipulate, threaten and bully to meet his objectives (traits which helped him excel in business). When alone, he (as did I) vented with friends the true feelings and frustrations based on core emotions.
And that's why, at least for me, it was very difficult during the divorce when the former spouse put forth objectives which triggered my sense of us being a team, working together for a common good (which I associated with a positive aspect of our marriage). And I continually, repetitively learned that that was not the case. I was no longer his emotional confidant. I was someone he wanted out of his life because of all the "pain and misery" I caused him.
Duh.
To each their own perspective.
My mantra was that I was a good caring person going into the divorce, and I was going to be good and caring coming out of the divorce.
And I found that the man I pledged to spend the rest of my life with was truly an adversary, and pulled no punches when his sense of entitlement was threatened.
That was my experience.
Gypsy - Well said. I think that is what most of us experiance and you articulated the scenario perfectly.
Now Sunny - you know what they say about assuming ;-)
Aw crap. I've entered one of those periods where the mojo's a quart low. Took Themselves to Famous Sport Fishing Pier, where there's a small amusement park and couldn't help but notice, among the zillions of family groupings, a goodly number of Dad-led threesomes. And it struck me - this is almost a cliche, the standard-issue, movie-of-the-week visitation-outing. And for some reason - no doubt the Big Decision I reluctantly reached earlier in the week - that hit me hard, and I could just feel the mojo drain away. There they are on the Ferris Wheel, and here I am waiting, preparing that faux happy face for their exit, playing Solitaire on a cell phone.
By the hammer of Thor, how I hate it.
Arrrrgggg.... yeah, I guess you're right. That would be a typical place a dad would take his kids, SP.
Try to enjoy them!
Puppy
But for the Board - does the lying ever stop?
Absolutely not. They
need to lie. For so many reasons that each of us here could post our own WAS' laundry-list of them.
As always, G-woman is candid as hell and right as rain.
But for the Board - does the lying ever stop?
I don't think it comes down to 'lying'. My divorcing spouse no longer had my back. He no longer had my best interests at heart.
A civil (or not so civil) demeanor evolved with face to face conversations in order to facilitate the best outcome for him. If that didn't work, he'd manipulate, threaten and bully to meet his objectives (traits which helped him excel in business). When alone, he (as did I) vented with friends the true feelings and frustrations based on core emotions.
And that's why, at least for me, it was very difficult during the divorce when the former spouse put forth objectives which triggered my sense of us being a team, working together for a common good (which I associated with a positive aspect of our marriage). And I continually, repetitively learned that that was not the case. I was no longer his emotional confidant. I was someone he wanted out of his life because of all the "pain and misery" I caused him.
Duh.
To each their own perspective.
My mantra was that I was a good caring person going into the divorce, and I was going to be good and caring coming out of the divorce.
And I found that the man I pledged to spend the rest of my life with was truly an adversary, and pulled no punches when his sense of entitlement was threatened.
That was my experience.
Change the genders in the above, and that was/is my experience exactly.
SP,
Aw crap. I've entered one of those periods where the mojo's a quart low. Took Themselves to Famous Sport Fishing Pier, where there's a small amusement park and couldn't help but notice, among the zillions of family groupings, a goodly number of Dad-led threesomes. And it struck me - this is almost a cliche, the standard-issue, movie-of-the-week visitation-outing. And for some reason - no doubt the Big Decision I reluctantly reached earlier in the week - that hit me hard, and I could just feel the mojo drain away. There they are on the Ferris Wheel, and here I am waiting, preparing that faux happy face for their exit, playing Solitaire on a cell phone.
By the hammer of Thor, how I hate it.
Ouch. How true. But Ouch.
But Themselves are led by a damned good Dad, that's for sure!
I concur, word-for-word, with Gypsy. and sometimes it's one of those things that sucks so bad it takes your breath away until you somehow, amazingly, get used to it. Resilience. wow.
Welllllll, that's how it goes, I guess.
Got STBX's counter-counter-counter-whatever-it's-up-to-at-this-point-proposal.
Cliff's Notes version: Bankrupt SP.
So it's time to open up the Want Ads. Interesting job in Lebanon...
SMILES - Sending good vibes. HUG
Uhhhh....
Why does she get to call the shots?
Why not let her feel/know the consequences of her actions.
It's odd.. when you call her on her behavior, she recoils like a sea anemone. Yet if you're the least bit accommodating, she whacks with you with a big ole jellyfish, stinging tentacles included.
And as painful as it is.. you cannot protect your children from her abusive behavior. But you can be and are the loving father who is the rock, the shelter, the nurturing soul who will always be there for them... unless of course you're in Lebanon.
*hugs*
SP, what if you counter-counter-counter-counter-countered, with something that was MORE aggressive with what you had offered/asked for before, and/or took something off the table previously offered?
I think an escalated response is in order, in keeping with Gypsy's observation above.
Puppy
Waiting to see what the Mouthpiece has to say. Spent 6 hours going over the document myself, crafting my own reactions (for the Mouthpiece) and adding supporting documentation, etc.
Real challenge is that STBX (and/or STBX's lawyer and/or STBX's 10 dozen lawyer friends) has come up with a pretty nifty divorce hat-trick by requesting 50/50 custody "with flexibility for both":
1) @ 50/50, children have no "primary residence," so child support reduced by half;
2) @ 50/50, alimony reduced by 2/3, since no need to maintain "lifestyle to which accustomed" as children have no primary residence; since SP Himself cannot possibly afford this house, that puts him on the street and STBX back in the house, which has long been a beef ("why didn't I kick your a** to the curb instead of leaving???");
3) There is no obligation to "actually" have 50% custody -- in other words, STBX can use a babysitter for whatever percentage of her time is required "in order to work." A babysitter for which, under the law, I am required to pay half. And her clever "with flexibility for both" language reflects recognition that (a) I would take any amount of time with Themselves I could and (b) my work requires no "flexibility" because it's all in the middle of the day (unless it's in Lebanon [or Iraq, where I found some other very interesting opportunities]).
So win-win-win: Less support/alimony = more money for her; SP out of "her" house; same slammin' lifestyle with SP's patented babysitting offset (and her babysitting cost much, much less than support).
And of course the court will be thrilled that she "wants" more custody.
@SP>>>"And of course the court will be thrilled that she "wants" more custody."
Forgive me if you've already talked about this; Have you already attended Family Courts mediation?
It was my experience that they were not thrilled that H now wanted 50/50, when it had been more along 20/80.
It'll be interesting to see what your L has to say.
I believe you have my cell # if you want to call me. Although I did represent myself, I hired someone to brief me on what the courts look for in establishing custody agreements.
Hopefully your Mouthpiece had some information of value.
Sunny
o
it's time to open up the Want Ads. Interesting job in Lebanon...
Hey SP down under is a great place to raise kids.
Plenty of work , fresh air, Nucular free, war free, free medical nice people ....etc etc
6 months a year - full custody no dealings or interference with X.
Schoolings great as well.
SP - I am not sure if this is an option for you but why not tell your attny that you are done negotiating? It's not like this is the first proposal you have received.
IMO there are some obvious questions that your W will need to address. Why did she run out and buy the house she did if she had *any* inkling she would want to keep the house you currently live in? She couldn't buy the house she has fast enough and now that it is not all that it's cracked up to be she wants the old (old house = your current house) back. Once again it seems she simply wants to keep her options open for as long as possible about where she lives.
I know the laws differ in your state but eventually I had to tell my attny I was done going back and forth and even listening to any more "proposals" on a matter I was given no choice on. Two years of it simply was too long for the VERY urgent divorce my H demanded. It sounds like you are heading down that road as well.
"50/50" -- instead of 49/51 or 51/49 -- just automatically NEGATES 2/3 of alimony and 1/2 of child support??? That doesn't sound right to me. In fact, in sounds insane.
If that's the case, then refuse the offer. Personally, I think you should now dramatically up the ante and go for FULL CUSTODY, and staying in your home. You are clearly the better (only??) parent here, SP, and it's time to put the legal boot on your wife's throat, IMHO.
Puppy
And..
I'd have to think that your divorcing spouse's actions to your children (ignoring their birthdays, significant events) might come into play.
Generosity/Sunny knows alot about that.
*hugs*
Document the time she spends with Themselves. You have your records here of the important days she missed, the times you had them, the job you DIDN'T take because she wouldn't agree to working out supervision. Keep documenting, and don't say a word about it to her. *No way* a judge is going to agree to 50/50 if she's blown off their birthdays and has shown through her actions she's done more like 80/20.
Let the lawyer handle it all. Your STBXW is a loon.
SD
Had a long conference call with The Mouthpiece and associate. He's pretty much fed up with the counter-counter-counter game. We're drafting a letter to The Other Side that proposes everyone sit down with a mediator because, as The Mouthpiece put it, "Someone needs to explain to them what the law is in the Real World."
If they demur or fail to show, we're straight to the courthouse.
As far as the house kerfluffle goes, his recommendation was: stay put. If STBX stops paying the mortgage, don't pay it; she can't list it without my signature, and it'd take at least a year for the bank to get around to having me evicted (and since I'm an owner STBX can't have me evicted), and since The Other Side is holding "an immediate house sale" out as a threat to produce a "reasonable" (i.e., the one STBX likes) settlement, it's about time to call their bluff. Is STBX willing to take the hit to her credit rating that a foreclosure would produce? Let's see just how hard a game of hardball The Other Side wants to play. And by the time that year passed, I'd be preparing to leave anyway since that was The Plan in the first place (to keep the older one stabilized in school where he's comfortable until the natural elementary-middle school transition).
STBX sent me a nasty-gram yesterday, thanking me for reminding her every single day "just how right" she was when she dropped the Bomb: "We were never anything; we never had anything; I left nothing behind."
I replied: "You're very welcome! :)" [smiley face included]
I suspect that wasn't the reply she was hoping for LOL.
She does this, every now and again -- this weird "see, I told you we weren't a good couple" or "it's not like I want you bankrupt (and not just because you're the kids' dad)" or "I wasn't really sure about D until now" kind of thing. The other day, for some reason that eludes me, she texted in response to learning from the kids that I'd shot down their idea/wish that STBX would accompany us on our summer vacation, "See? We're both done with each other."
If I didn't know better, I'd wonder if it wasn't some kind of back-a**wards status-checking -- "is he still into me?" Or -- worse -- if she wasn't hinting at still being into me and wanting to see how I might reply. Or maybe she doesn't even know she's doing it.
I'm just tired of it, whatever it is. It drains the energy in a way that's just not helpful. Sign the friggin' papers, give me my money, and go about your business already.
Had a long conference call with The Mouthpiece and associate. He's pretty much fed up with the counter-counter-counter game. We're drafting a letter to The Other Side that proposes everyone sit down with a mediator because, as The Mouthpiece put it, "Someone needs to explain to them what the law is in the Real World."
If they demur or fail to show, we're straight to the courthouse.
As far as the house kerfluffle goes, his recommendation was: stay put. If STBX stops paying the mortgage, don't pay it; she can't list it without my signature, and it'd take at least a year for the bank to get around to having me evicted (and since I'm an owner STBX can't have me evicted), and since The Other Side is holding "an immediate house sale" out as a threat to produce a "reasonable" (i.e., the one STBX likes) settlement, it's about time to call their bluff. Is STBX willing to take the hit to her credit rating that a foreclosure would produce? Let's see just how hard a game of hardball The Other Side wants to play.
yer talkin'!!!
Puppy
STBX sent me a nasty-gram yesterday, thanking me for reminding her every single day "just how right" she was when she dropped the Bomb: "We were never anything; we never had anything; I left nothing behind."
All she's trying to do is convince herself of something that isn't true in order to justify her actions. She's trying to assuage her guilt.
Maybe. Who knows. It's just one of a dozen irritants.
Do you find it hard to believe that this was once the person whom you wanted to spend the rest of your life with? I myself would have thought the world would have ended before I saw and heard the things from her that I have!
Dude.
Factor the physical (i.e., body) changes -- she's dropped 5 dress sizes if she's dropped 1; her hair has become sort of wiry; the lines in her face stand out because her cheeks are so hollow -- and the "new" wardrobe into the mental, emotional, and verbal "evolution" since The Bomb, and then multiply it by the Mid-Life Adolescence and the meaningless sex partners for a woman who for years professed her absolute mystification at people with multiple sex partners, and....
Put it this way: She once texted -- thinking, I suppose, that she was scoring a point or something -- "You have no idea who I am. It's so strange -- a random stranger off the street would know me better than you do."
Didn't know how right she was. On the odd occasion that we've been face-to-face and not snarling, from time-to-time I'll catch what might be, in the eyes, a glimpse of "my" wife, but it's like those ghostly ghosts you "see" at the very edge of the peripheral vision -- I try to focus and it's gone.
An. Utter. Stranger.
I know exactly what you mean. And I can relate to just about everything you said. Mine lost a bunch of weight too. Zumba.
Ditto that
Mine has become underweight, angry, foul mouthed and generally unpleasant to be around.
Yesterday I caught S5 mimiking her and using some shocking language. When I told her about it she smirked and said "What can I say, he's a mimik..."
Who is this person?
The Boy, yesterday, dinner table, upon hearing that Smiley's Person Himself is looking into taking his progeny on a trip to Hawaii later this summer: "Mom's going to Hawaii!"
The Girl: "Yeah, she told us!"
The Boy (suddenly crestfallen): "But she's going the same day that my play is." [The Boy got the Lead in the Big 4th Grade Play, which he was beside himself proud about.]
The Boy, upon seeing the dark cloud pass across my face: "But she said don't worry, because it doesn't mean she's a bad mother or anything, but she already paid for her ticket and it's really expensive and anyway the school is going to make a DVD of it so she can watch it -- she said she would! So that's okay. Right, Daddy?"
I smiled and assured him it was A-OK.
But when I was alone in my office....
Okay, okay; I've done all the strength and compassion bullsh*t. When do I get to just plain hate this....thing?
Oh, you can hate it now. Just don't show the hate in front of Themselves, which you're not, which is good.
Puppy
Yeah, it would take in-human strength to remain Beige, in that situation.
"make a DVD of it so she can watch it -- she said she would!"
Sure, that'll do the job!
She doesn't know what she's giving away, does she!
Hey, you could always pack up the kids for a beach get-a-way down-south coastal city. Not Hawaii, but price is right & the company's good.
Sorry your children's mother is not able to make them a priority right now...
Take Care,
Sunny
Hey SP..
I'm sorry to hear what your children are going through, trying to be happy with the crumbs of affection and rationalizations of their mother in how she regards them.
And I'm very glad that they have a father and daddy like you, able to give the discipline, love and boundaries that children need to flourish and thrive. And your pancakes. They look divine.
Children are the souls of innocence with the wisdom of ages who intrinsically know what is and isn't true. Be there for them and make sure they never blame themselves for the actions of, or sacrifice their emotional well being to protect their mother.
*hugs*
SP - chill - she looses it all.
Everyone remembers where they came from, we all remember the highs and the lows of our childhood. We remember the disappointments and who caused it.
Dont hate her or feel sorry for her. Feel nothing, she does not deserve your energy or head space.
Every single one of us - good and bad hate how divorce affects kids. We know they are the losers in all this. All we can do is love them and not add to there burden or pain. Hating their mother would indeed do that to them while they are kids.
Dont hate her or feel sorry for her. Feel nothing, she does not deserve your energy or head space.
I think that's the key. Gettin' there is the trick though!
Big night last night at the school gym, where the K-1-2 Chorus regaled the assembled parental multitudes with song and kazoo. The Girl Herself was agitatedly excited, having been distributed one of the apparently highly coveted shiny red kazoos.
Unfortunately, the night was so big that I was compelled to sit next to STBX, rescued only at the last minute by a late-arriving grandparent of Janey or Jimmy or Juney or whoever, but Gallant To The End I nobly sacrificed my seat to the needs of an elder and went to the SRO zone under the basketball net - hopefully in time to have dodged Walkaway Cooties.
And it was a better spot to take pictures from, to boot!
Nice work, way to dodge those Cooties! And kudos on finding a good vantage point for photo ops....
Walkaway Cooties! Hahaha!
I always love reading your thread, sorry for the circumstances surrounding it though..
I have said to before to you. After the D, turn this into a book. Love the writing style, the Message Board format. I think it would sell.
I already envisioned the cover.... two smiley heads with people bodies- a bride and groom, strangling each other....
Hmmmm maybe SP yours and all of ours problem is one of control.
Separation and divorce which is pushed on us, always means we have no control. We cant control what WAS does or is doing.
Cant stop them hurting those we love, cant stop them wrecking all these lives . Cant even say anything without it being confrontational. We have absolutely no control.
So maybe its about learning to live in this now dysfunctional unit with no control.
Learning to reduce hurt on kids and whoever else with OUR actions, and do not consider at all the WAS actions.
So, what am I a'gonna do about Mother's Day tomorrow?
Last year, I did the cooking for the "brunch" the kids "prepared" for their mother, though it had to wait on her return from the airport.
This year she didn't even bother with the pretense -- she bugged-out 2 days ago.
So it's Mother's Day for Mr. Mom....
It's a wonderful day to enjoy your kids. Mother's Day is for the mom in whatever size, shape or form manifested. And if she's not around, it's her loss and her consequence to bear.
Be the Dad. That's more than enough.
*hugs*
So, what am I a'gonna do about Mother's Day tomorrow?
Last year, I did the cooking for the "brunch" the kids "prepared" for their mother, though it had to wait on her return from the airport.
This year she didn't even bother with the pretense -- she bugged-out 2 days ago.
So it's Mother's Day for Mr. Mom....
Lucky you! I'm taking mine out to dinner with the kids...who she's not talking to at the moment. It's gonna be great!
pa,
We have absolutely no control.
Respectfully disagree. We have
total control over how we react/don't react and care/don't care about what they do, think, say, etc.
So, what am I a'gonna do about Mother's Day tomorrow?
Last year, I did the cooking for the "brunch" the kids "prepared" for their mother, though it had to wait on her return from the airport.
This year she didn't even bother with the pretense -- she bugged-out 2 days ago.
So it's Mother's Day for Mr. Mom....
I can cut most people a lot of slack but she's a real a**hole not being with those kids on Mother's Day. Oh, and by the way, Hi!
The day started out fine. We had breakfast, built Legos, played. Then we went to get The Boy some new shoes.
Big Effin' Mistake.
Because the mall, being the mall, was full of families out for Mother's Day brunch. The parade of MomsandDadsandKids was not lost on Themselves. Nor on me. I felt bad for them; I felt bad for me; I felt bad about feeling bad for me when I should've been focusing on them.
Had to bug-out. Since then, my chest is in a vise. I have to call the Head Shrinker. I think I'm having anxiety attacks or something. Had to sit them down in front of a movie and retreat to my bedroom to cower in a corner. Man, I feel bad.
SP, I'm sorry bro. I hope that feeling passes soon so you can return to enjoying Themselves. No smart-alec comments here. It's a tough day.
Hey SP..
It doesn't help that it's a wrenching pain shared by all in this situation..
And it doesn't help to hear that time heals all wounds..
The only thing I know.. is that you're a wonderful loving dad who gives more to his children than some parents do combined.
And that stands the test of time.
*hugs*
Respectfully disagree. We have total control over how we react/don't react and care/don't care about what they do, think, say, etc.
Sorry Gardener - I was refering to the actions of the WAS. We can only control ourselves.
SP- Up and down we go but look how long its been since the last time you felt this bad. That gap will just get bigger and bigger between episodes of lonliness or whatever.
When I look at all those COUPLES and families I always think that I have no idea how they are feeling or living. You know that there would of been some of those "happy" families who were looking at you enviously SP.
Count your blessings - gratitude journals are great for reminding us in these down times just what we do have. Its hard to think of how good we have it when we feel like S#$%.
So jot even some words down that will remind you of your blessings but only when your feeling your mojo
Y
Yeah, took my kids to dinner tonight and was the only mom not there with a husband...then heard a song on the radio on the way home that my XH used to sing to me and started crying. Luckily kids didn't see it....
Hope you get a chance to see the headshrinker. Mine is out of town the next two weeks so I have to wait...
I'm sure you felt bad 'parking them in front of a movie' but at least you didn't melt down in front of them...
I felt bad for them; I felt bad for me; I felt bad about feeling bad for me when I should've been focusing on them.
Had to bug-out. Since then, my chest is in a vise. I have to call the Head Shrinker. I think I'm having anxiety attacks or something. Had to sit them down in front of a movie and retreat to my bedroom to cower in a corner. Man, I feel bad.
Sorry, SP.
When I was going thru my stuff (and this still happens, but far less frequently), I noticed that I would have these periodic "episodes." I reasoned that it was because we have to be in "game face" mode so much, and we stuff our true feelings in order to lead the family, that it just hits us all at once sometimes.
I do think it's healthy, though, and it's PERFECTLY understandable.
Think of it as a relief valve. Lets off the excess pressure, so you can get back to a healthy level.
Puppy
Thanks for your good thoughts, everyone.
Now as many of you know, whenever STBX is frustrated with my "lack of flexibility" -- in other words, my unwillingness to ask, "how high?" whenever she says, "jump!" -- she runs to her lawyer to complain.
Monday, a STBX custody day, The Boy had a bug and couldn't go to school. Hearing nothing of his status for the entire day, I sent a brief text -- in accordance with our rules -- simply asking how he was. She replied that he was still struggling and she might need to drop him off at this house the next morning [today] if he was still unwell, because she couldn't be home from work 2 days in a row.
That was a problem -- I had a job interview today in Other Coast Coastal City and was planning on a 0500 departure from Coastal City Airport for a 1330 arrival (local) at Other Coast Coastal City Airport, a 1500 interview, and a 2200 (local) departure for home, so that I could be back on Wednesday, which is my custody day and when The Boy has a therapist session anyway.
When I told her of my flying plans, she immediately brought Teh Batsh*t Crazy -- why hadn't I told her this before? Um, boundaries? Personal business? Unacceptable! Unacceptable! (I practically heard the Conhead meps! meps! coming out.) If she'd known, she would have rescheduled her important Tuesday event! There I go again, being inflexible!
Now I had only learned of the opportunity to interview that very afternoon and booked an incredibly painful frequent flier trip, because the opportunity was so good. But we had mediation scheduled for next week, so why blow it up now? So I said I'd look into fixing it one way or the other, in that all-important spirit of flexibility which, apparently, means she goes off and misses important kid functions and scoffs at the suggestion of rearranging her busy personal life while I voluntarily forgo economic opportunities to care for a child.
But at this point, you see, she was in The Zone. She didn't understand a word! I was talking gibberish!
And then she started wigging out about Wednesday, though Wednesday was not even at issue, because by dam she has a 2 o'clock flight for (another) Big Weekend on Wednesday and she was dammed if I was going to mess that up with my inflexibility, and when I asked her to just read what I'd written -- that I was out-and-back on Tuesday and had said nothing about Wednesday so why was that even part of the discussion? -- she declared she would "let my lawyers deal with it!"
At which point I was not, as per the @Gypsy Doctrine, impeccable with my words -- and here we see the Infinite Wisdom of same -- when I suggested to her that perhaps she might go and perform an anatomically possible feat upon herself and therewith ended the interchange.
So, as per her usual, she went whining to her lawyer first thing this morning, who went complaining to my lawyer and making all kinds of threats, and then my lawyer....broke up with me.
Just not worth it. Too little at stake in the dissolution to have to deal with hearing from her lawyer on every trivial complaint.
So. Here I am. On my own -- literally -- against a lawyer with a lawyer; a lawyer whose friends are all lawyers; whose sibling is a lawyer; and whose BFF from law school is a divorce lawyer.
And all I wanted was a better-paying job. Ain't that a kick in the pants?
Hey Pal..
Suggesting to your divorcing spouse to stop a self imposed cavity search though a helpful perceptive comment leads to ire.. as you well know.
However... we seem to share some common behavior in our relationships with departing spouses. It's all about them, meeting their needs, shouldering the responsibility for the children because we are all about family. We were well trained. I never would have broken up a family, period. Though now that I am freed from the bondage, I find that most of it's the same. Oops.. and that I'd been raising the kids mostly on my own the entire time. Only I'm no longer feeling like crap and I recognize the manipulations and bullying to the point where it's almost comical.
Divorce means two households. It means two separate schedules. It means that each party is responsible for 'their' time. It doesn't mean the other spouse jumps in to fix it. To accommodate the whims of the other parent.
A simple call to see how your son is doing spirals into plans changing like jumping beans on acid playing hopscotch.
She can't miss two days out of work. Okay. But finding appropriate care for your son gives you right of first refusal but does not mandate you changing plans, period.
It's like the former spouse gallivanting in Europe and saying he doesn't have time to sign and notarize papers as important for him as it is for me. Hello, if it was business he'd be all over it like flies on... flypaper.
So, it comes down to priorities. And she's still wheedling you. Pushing your buttons, tweaking you to jump, change your plans while insulting you and your lawyer to the point where you're dumped.
My advice, ask your estranged lawyer for the best individual he'd recommend for a case like yours. Just because she is and has lawyer buddies, doesn't make her almighty and powerful.
And your lawyer is a wuss puss, too. She is an adulterous, conniving, selfish, manipulative woman who's not afraid to play dirty and use every trick in the book to undermine you and your legal representative. You're all about strategy, making things happen. You're smart, creative and a warrior. Use it.
She IS your adversary.
As my sister told me as I sat waiting for the final settlement the day of the divorce. Take the focus off the children. Treat it as a business proposition, cut and dry. Get the best possible deal and walk away.
The love and devotion you have to your beautiful children is heartwarming. But don't let her use them as emotional pawns because it is plain wrong on so many levels. And as harsh as it sounds, it works against you and the kids when you agree to this type of splattering guilt and whirling dervish frenzy.
You're a good person, Smiley Person. Take charge.
*hugs*
When I told her of my flying plans, she immediately brought Teh Batsh*t Crazy -- why hadn't I told her this before? Um, boundaries? Personal business? Unacceptable! Unacceptable! (I practically heard the Conhead meps! meps! coming out.) If she'd known, she would have rescheduled her important Tuesday event! There I go again, being inflexible!
She wants the dynamic to stay the same. You need to change this or you will be dealing with this for years to come.
Knock em dead on the interview.
Opportunity for you to find a better L.
Cheers
Coming from someone who spent the entire D process playing Twister to cover all my ex's "needs"...stop! I know, do as I say, not as I do...but seriously, to have a major interview lined up and then try to work around it? That would be putting her best interests in front of yours. She clearly does NOT reciprocate...but you already knew that!
As my sister told me as I sat waiting for the final settlement the day of the divorce. Take the focus off the children. Treat it as a business proposition, cut and dry. Get the best possible deal and walk away.
Very good advice. That is how I try to haandle it with my ex. Aevery now and then, when I don't do what he wants, he will whine about paying spousal support. Get over it buddy, that was decided over two years ago.
So, it comes down to priorities. And she's still wheedling you. Pushing your buttons, tweaking you to jump, change your plans while insulting you and your lawyer to the point where you're dumped.
You can't let her control your life. Finding child care for her days is her responsibility. What would she do if you were out of town.....oh wait you were going to be out of town and she pitched a fit. Sorry, not your problem!
Smiley, why did your lawyer "break up" with you?
Smiley, why did your lawyer "break up" with you?
I suspect it's all about the almighty Dollar-to-Aggravation Ratio.
Puppy
Smiley, why did your lawyer "break up" with you?
I suspect it's all about the almighty Dollar-to-Aggravation Ratio.
Puppy
Doesn't make sense if he/she was charging by the hour. More Aggravation = More $
Nothing but legal prostitutes - all of them !
i hope you dont mind SP - but you do get a lot of traffic ( very flattering ) but i wanted to know if anybody out there had a WAS ( my case XH ) ( separated for years ) who was still checking bank accounts and email accounts ( that passwords had not changed ) on a daily basis ?
Any thoughts on why such a WAH would do that ?
My accounts and email sites are for my business - reason I have not chnaged these particular passwords - I get a kick thinking everyday the first thing he thinks about is 'whats the ex up to '
Just dont understand why ?
Smiley, why did your lawyer "break up" with you?
I suspect it's all about the almighty Dollar-to-Aggravation Ratio.
Puppy
Doesn't make sense if he/she was charging by the hour. More Aggravation = More $
This immutable Law still applies. If the atty determined that the hourly rate that he charges, in SP's case, isn't worth the aggravation that Mrs. SP and her atty causes, then he'd bail.
Puppy
Hey pollyanna...
Two questions..
How much fun is it when someone is stalking you, encroaching on private information?
If a business partnership failed, would the passwords remain the same.
Life is better when a former spouse's antics (on either side of the spectrum) are not monitored.
*hugs*
i hope you dont mind SP - but you do get a lot of traffic ( very flattering ) but i wanted to know if anybody out there had a WAS ( my case XH ) ( separated for years ) who was still checking bank accounts and email accounts ( that passwords had not changed ) on a daily basis ?
Any thoughts on why such a WAH would do that ?
My accounts and email sites are for my business - reason I have not chnaged these particular passwords - I get a kick thinking everyday the first thing he thinks about is 'whats the ex up to '
Just dont understand why ?
Cuz it's addicting.
Puppy
"Life is better when a former spouse's antics (on either side of the spectrum) are not monitored." - Gypsy
Lots of truth and wisdom in that statement.
In my case, STBEX and I still have a common e-mail address that school and others can use for kid-related information and invites so that both of us are clued in. For instance, S got an invite for a sleepover next weekend (when STBEX has the kids) so this saves STBEX having to inform me directly.
Concerning bank accounts: We still have two common checking accounts active while each of us now have an additional one that the other cannot access. It makes money transfers a heck of a lot easier if there is still a good degree of trust in that arena. Fortunately I have that but I know it could always get a heck of a lot worse...
How much fun is it when someone is stalking you, encroaching on private information?
If a business partnership failed, would the passwords remain the same.
Life is better when a former spouse's antics (on either side of the spectrum) are not monitored.
No the business accounts and email are mine. Not shared. I could very easily change the passwords but am intrigued that someone who moved heaven and earth to get out of our marriage and who immediately hooked up with a tramp, still wishes to see what I am up to.
I do only use those accounts for what i want him to see or know. He does not realise I can tell.
You think he has not let go ?
I do only use those accounts for what i want him to see or know. He does not realise I can tell.
You think he has not let go ?
I think
you have not let go. Change the passwords and move on with your life. Quit thinking about him.
lodo
Hey - I never thought about it like that. Your right.
Thank you - changing them now
How the tempus does fugit....
* Why did the lawyer break up with me? @Puppy's got it basically right. He said, Look, there's not enough at stake in this divorce to make this worthwhile to me, and I don't feel like billing you for no progress. There just wasn't any value-added anymore in listening to her lawyer say "STBX doesn't like when SP says A,B,C." Plus, her lawyer wouldn't reply to anything we proposed -- her "strategy" was just to pretend we'd said nothing and make a completely different set of counter-proposals. So he wrote off my debt, and I'm free to find someone fresh.
* After I got re-situated, I started doing a lot of do-it-yourself divorce reading. Then I re-read Getting to Yes, and I decided to Take Action and do what I could to facilitate a resolution.
* To that end, I sent STBX an email last week. Basically it said this: A year ago, almost to the day, I sent you a note suggesting we get all the information put together about income and assets and liabilities, prioritize them, and see what we could figure out. I said there was a lot of stuff we hadn't thought about -- emergency notifications, life insurance, formulas for splitting up retirement accounts -- and that it would be useful for me to be able to see all of that in black-and-white. I trust you will recall that you didn't take kindly to that idea.
[Backstory: From D-Day on, she had demanded I "name my price." What was it going to cost for her to be free? I was not the Finances Partner in the M, so I didn't really have a clue what was going on, money-wise. The note I was referring to I'd written roughly 3 months after she dropped the bomb -- not a lot of time in the grand-scheme-of-recovery-things, I think you'll agree, but I was trying to DB and be the guy-only-a-fool-etc. and 180 -- and since I hadn't been involved in the financial stuff, figuring out what was needed was a 180 -- or so I thought. Anyway, even though she was deep into the Bliss of Signore Schmuckatelli il Primero, her reply foreshadowed her later pattern of Teh Batsh*t Krazee (TM): "So that's how it is! Well if you're going try to f*ck me in the a**, then I'm going with a lawyer!"
[Now she hemmed and hawwed about retaining someone, but after I took a meeting with a collaborative law guy -- on behalf of both of us and with her full knowledge, mind you -- she freaked at his statement that the court would order her to play alimony for more than 10 years -- "that a**hole's totally biased against me!" -- and ultimately pulled the trigger and got her Mouthpiece. (And she then told some people we know that she'd hired a "ball-busting woman lawyer" because her goal was "to bust SP's balls LOL!! That a**hole!")
[I've come to realize, apropos of nothing, that this is one of her key personality patterns: if she doesn't like an answer, the problem isn't the answer but the person giving it. So when the collaborative law guy -- whom she'd never met and was just going off of paper numbers and 30 years' experience in family law -- gave her an answer she didn't like, it was "obviously" because he was "totally biased against" her. I'm not sure how that fits into the context of the overall D-situation, but I've only recently become consciously aware of this shoot-the-messenger mentality of hers.]
My note of last week continued: Now here we are, 12 months and $30,000 later, and we're in exactly the same place we were the instant you clicked "send" on your reply. So we tried it your way. Can we please try it a different way?
And I suggested that each of us propose 2 candidate meeting places and times, agendas, meeting rules, recording rules, and a prioritized list of issues to be examined.
(There are some issues that are so trivial it's ridiculous -- who gets the station wagon. You want the station wagon? Take the dam station wagon, I'll buy a new one, know what I mean?)
I suggested that at this point we ought to be able to reach agreement on some number of things, so why don't we try to whittle the list of contentious issues down, and if we get stuck on 1 or 2 or 3, turn those over to lawyers? Trying this, I said, wouldn't make us any worse off, and if we do have to go to trial the trial would at least be shorter and less costly.
She accepted in principle, but she's resisting on defining procedural rules for the meeting, so we'll see how it all shakes out. I'm insisting on agreed-upon procedural rules because of her pattern of mis-representing what I say to score points with her lawyer.
I think the fact that my lawyer quit and so the mandatory court hearing we had for last week is now postponed until nearly the end of the summer freaked her out a little bit. Back in The Day when she was the Jolly Walkaway and was oh-so-happy to not get rid of me completely -- we can still be Good Friends! -- she was "confident" this wouldn't take more than a year. So the fact that she kind of screwed up by constantly getting her lawyer to whine on her behalf and so might have pushed the final settlement all the way to 2011 is a bit of a wake-up-call (okay, I'm guilty of projecting and mind-reading there, I'll admit, but it seems plausible nevertheless).
And I think seeing the size of the attorney's bills in one lump sum had a salutary effect -- it's one thing to say "$1,000/month" and another to say, "$30,000."
It sucks, what with being the Left-Behind and all, that I'm the one who has take ownership here, but it's clear to me that I'm going to have be the Leader here and get this zombie relationship put into the grave it so richly deserves.
Much to my surprise -- and, I must confess, much to my vexation -- I have to take a business trip to STBX's SexFest European Country. She texted me the other night: "Kids say u r going to Euro City?" Well crap. Reply: True tho plenty of other places would rather go. STBX: "Y? Just cause I fell in love there?" Reply: Boundaries pls. And yes. Some things dont really need 2 b refreshed. You can get Euro City in the divorce lol. So any place specific u go? Might avoid if possible.
For some reason, this wigged her out, and she sent this long, twisted, irrational e-mail that basically boiled down to "am I supposed to draw you a map?"
I was sort of asking, you know, do you regularly eat at Joe's Diner -- that kind of thing. Anyway, this somehow uncorked something in her, and I have had in the past 36 hours a DELUGE of messages from her -- over 50 emails alone!
When replies were in order, I worked on them very diligently and in accordance with the @Gypsy Doctrine, ensuring they always stopped "just short." For some reason, the fact that the tone of my replies, when I replied, was chipper and non-confrontational just made her madder and madder.
So she reverted to pattern and occasionally would send this really hostile and crude note; when it didn't provoke a rise, she'd try to jailhouse lawyer it into something; when that didn't work, she'd start cc'ing her attorney, as if trying to coerce me; when I replied (if I replied) I cc'd her lawyer, too, so there was not wiggle room for her to misrepresent; and with every iteration she would just dig herself deeper in the hole.
Finally, she obviously got so wigged-out last night that in frustration she sent one of the e-mail threads to a close friend of hers. In it, she'd mentioned this place she goes to in Euro City. And she wrote to her friend, "Of course he doesn't know I go there with Signore Schmuckatelli il Secondo, but I just like the idea of knowing he'll be walking in our footsteps LOL!"
Problem was, she was so mental at that point, that she sent it to me! Now I definitely don't think it was deliberate -- I think her e-mail client was auto-filling the "To:" field, and whomever she was sending it to had a similar address to mine.
But it was so awesome. Every time I thought about it I started to giggle. I sat on it a while and, just before bed, replied: Going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I was not the intended recipient of this e-mail.
NOT A WORD. As if it didn't happen.
And all day today -- all day -- she sent a blizzard of notes on a dozen topics but scrupulously avoided mentioning it at all. Ah, gad, it was cool to watch.
Bottom line -- I don't know WHAT the hell is up with her. She's clearly out of her mind, but beyond that? We had another one of those power shifts today, that's for sure.
But the capper was this -- STBX threatened (or thought she was threatening) to file for a bifurcation of the D. We'd be legally divorced without a settlement of the other issues. In Coastal State they apparently give these things out like candy. Most people don't apply, because it means TWO divorce trials, not one, but (in theory anyway) it makes the property settlement easier because the emotional thing has been resolved. In practice, the people who DO file them do so because they've got major separate property issues (business or something) OR....wait for it...hold onto your hats...because they're wanting to get remarried. As a result, these things don't take more than 3 weeks on average.
Now I'm not sure what she was aiming for, but my reply clearly unsettled her -- because once she received it, she didn't send another note. And she'd been sending at least 4 an hour from 5 a.m. to 7:30 p.m.
My reply?
"Great idea! Why didn't we think of it before?"
And the funny thing is -- it actually is a great idea in my POV. I feel so oddly serene, like a dying person who's accepted the inevitably of the Grim Reaper's knock at the door. For the first time in months, I feel energized. There's a kind of relief in it.
Reminded me of that line from "Cast Away": Now I know what I have to do. I have to keep breathing. Because the sun will rise again. Who knows what the tide will bring?
On the other hand, I experimented with Vitamin B-12 this week and am apparently allergic to it, because I am covered in a decidedly non-godly rash. Oh well, win some, lose some!
Hey Smile Guy..
Happy to hear you're feeling serene.. at ease..
But the blizzard of emails with snarky comments sounds like patterns from wayyyyy back.
What in the heck does it matter if you're going to the same city she's been? Granted the former spouse slipped away to another city, but that doesn't mean he got it in the divorce. I went there often all my life and it never occurred to me to be vexed about where he saunters.
Why push her buttons.. as she pushes yours? Unless it provokes familiar feelings, an odd connection?
Anyway... just a few random thoughts as I'm half asleep.
Happy you're happy.
*hugs*
Amusing! I really like the mistaken email. I am so prone to those myself. I love seeing someone else do it. Goodness! She owns the European city. My, just a little territorial! It is good she married a man with a sense of humor. I hope Senor II is equally humored. He will get his dose of bat [censored] crazy someday.
Yeah, well, when you've been
BANNED, let me know.
Rookies.
Puppy/Chocolateeyes
Yeah, well, when you've been
BANNED, let me know.
Rookies.
Puppy/Chocolateeyes
That is too, too funny...
Yeah, well, when you've been
BANNED, let me know.
Rookies.
Puppy/Chocolateeyes
I think Lotus/Sarah is on her second go round on DB.
how do you know that I don't post under another handle?
On the other hand, I experimented with Vitamin B-12 this week and am apparently allergic to it, because I am covered in a decidedly non-godly rash. Oh well, win some, lose some!
B-12 a gateway vitamin. First it's vitamin B next it's C then things just spiral out of control. Let's get the kids started out on Flintstones, all seems harmless at first. Next thing you know is they want to start eating vegetables. It's all a communist plot.
SP- After catching up with your current batch of crazy emails with STBX I would confidently say that you are not done with this marriage !
You can bull$%^& that you have all you like but if you were , there would be no response emails, you would not care if you were in the same places she was... class is not out yet SP.
You still got business with this wife of yours.
@polly -- please note that I said, "when a reply was warranted." The deluge was hers; the trickle of replies was mine.
Not done with this marriage? When I turned my mobile on while the plane bringing me back from the Home of Her True Love, waiting for me was an email from STBX demanding that I tell her NOW what I intended to do about the mortgage on the house or else she will file with the court to force an immediate sale of the property.
She is so bullying, so vengeful, that she'll have the court kick me (and the children) out of this house rather than "lose" it in the settlement.
Not done? Bugger that.
Her lawyers don't counsel her to not be so mean and vengeful?
If you are still blaming her for your misery, your financial situation, your sorry arse self is not yet done.
You still got some lessons to learn from this marriage.
Is it not true that we are living examples of our beliefs and our fears are what we attract!
I don't know what her lawyers counsel her to do. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, maybe they counsel her to do just what she's doing.
All I know is I'm tired of it. Nearly at the point of moving away -- even from Themselves -- just to produce a modicum of stability. I don't see that splitting time is doing them much good. Maybe there's something to the old Disneyland Dad model. I don't know.
What I do know is I hated being in "her" town last weekend; I hate the sound of her heels klick-klocking up the walk to drop the kids' things on the porch, the *bing* of the e-mail indicator on the phone when she sends another nastygram, and if I never heard her voice again it would be too soon; I hate that I'm full of hate and not living the Thich Nhat Hanh ideal and that, if I had to be honest with myself, I'd admit that I sort of wish she was dead; I hate that it's all come to this, that two decades were squandered on a spiteful, uncaring woman who never took any interest in what I do, who secretly harbored a genteel loathing for me, and who held a million secret conferences in her head about my myriad and sundry failings as a husband and as a man and who never thought that was information that might be useful to me.
I used to want to think good thoughts about her, to "know" that she was "in pain," to be compassionate -- at a minimum, to respect the fact that she gave birth to my children -- but that ship sailed a long time ago. In a nastygram today she said flat out she categorically refuses to negotiate with me, categorically refuses to authorize her lawyer to negotiate with me. She wants it all or she wants to destroy it all.
And to think that once-upon-a-time I thought that staying married was better than not. What a putz.
@Polly. Let's see. She filed for divorce. Since doing so, I've spent $15,000 ($17,750 AU) on an attorney who got so fed up with her lawyer not actually responding to anything that he withdrew as counsel, leaving me with no lawyer and 15-large less with which to get one. She's threatening to go to court to get a judge to order that the house in which I -- and our children -- live be sold immediately, at whatever price it commands, loss or gain. And she deluges me with nastygrams, "thanking" me for reminding her that "we never were anything, we never had anything;" informing me that she "despises" me; dismissing my forthcoming surgery as "drama;" and on and on and on.
So which lessons, exactly, would you recommend I learn? The one where you pretend that it doesn't bother you that the person you committed your life to is trying to destroy you financially?
"Is it not true that we are living examples of our beliefs and our fears are what we attract!"
I don't know. I spent over a year in a nasty place fearing a bullet in the brain or an IED blowing my legs off, yet mercifully I didn't attract either. So....
I have no solutions for you. But you must never leave those children in her care for more than the minimum required time. I know it seems like forever until they go off to college. But it isn't. And you are their world. Don't you ever forget it! They can't trust her and they can't depend on her. Yes, she is an egotistical narcissist. And a pain in the behind to you. But those kids give your life meaning, and you are their only salvation from being crushed by her.
I agree with Lotus, Smiley. I know you're hurting (and loathing) right now, and it pains me to see a man of such strength and character having these challenges, but challenges they are, and staying with Themselves is STILL "The Right Thing to Do."
Puppy
“No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the Lord your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. 22 The Lord your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, otherwise the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. 23 But the Lord your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. 24 He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all.
-- Deut. 7:21
Just read that about 20 minutes ago. I thought I'd share it with you.
>>>"I agree with Lotus, Smiley. I know you're hurting (and loathing) right now, and it pains me to see a man of such strength and character having these challenges, but challenges they are, and staying with Themselves is STILL "The Right Thing to Do."
And I agree with Lotus & Puppy, your children need you now more than ever. You are a man of strength & character, which is why I have no doubt you'll find a way to rise to the challenges ahead.
Strength & Honor.
Sunny
a spiteful, uncaring woman who never took any interest in what I do, who secretly harbored a genteel loathing for me, and who held a million secret conferences in her head about my myriad and sundry failings as a husband and as a man and who never thought that was information that might be useful to me.
...
In a nastygram today she said flat out she categorically refuses to negotiate with me, categorically refuses to authorize her lawyer to negotiate with me. She wants it all or she wants to destroy it all.
Add to this the fact that she continues to pursue (yes, she is pursuing you for control) and harass you long after you have separated ...
...and the fact that she is jumping from one relationship to another - all of which are "perfect"
and this all sounds similar to what I am going through and will go through...(although your stbx is more violent in her criticism than mine)
...and from what I am reading, it is all characteristic of NPD or BPD.
I found that reading up on BPD helped me really detach from the craziness - almost like reading the script in advance.
Now if I could have a dollar for every time I thought that - I would pay your lawyers bill. I think everyone thinks that. But we dont act upon it because the next step happens when the anger and hate dissapate and your left with indifference .
So which lessons, exactly, would you recommend I learn?
Not for me to say. You need to recognise what it is that brought you to this situation. Who are you or what situations got you to this poiont in your life?
If you dont work that stuff out, you will probably find the same problems but different wife down the track !. You could also move away but you are still going to have the same issues in that town. You have to face this crap and then take measures to correct yourself.
What we focus on is always enormous and all consumimg SP. you need to take the heat out of your situation. Who cares if you can hear her clip clopping along or sending a message.Dont bite that poison apple , focus on what matters and all her crap does not matter. focus on what is right in the situation and dont bend at all. Dont argue or discuss or even frown when she is spewing her venom at you.
I don't know. I spent over a year in a nasty place fearing a bullet in the brain or an IED blowing my legs off, yet mercifully I didn't attract either. So....
I understand that there are 100s of millions of people in USA. Does everyone of you go to war? Thank goodness there are those that do choose to be soldiers, But what makes you choose and not your neightbour to do a tour of duty. I believe it is what makes SP , SP .
Random thought for the day: Dealing with someone in the depths of mid-life crisis is a beeeeeeeeeeyotch. Getting divorced by someone in the depths of mid-life crisis is a beeeeeeeeeeyotch-on-wheels.
S10: [Tenuously] Daddy?
SP Himself: Yo!
S10: Can I ask you something about the divorce that confuses me?
SP Himself: Always, Big Man!
S10: Why does Mommy say that thanks to you she's going to die alone?
SP Himself: [Pulling it out of his a**] Welllllllll ummmmmmmm ooooooookayee. Well, pal, I can't read your mother's mind, so I can't really say why she would say this or that. But I guess that's her point-of-view. Everyone has points-of-view on everything, and all we can do is look inside ourselves at our points-of-view and try to understand them for ourselves.
S10: Are you going to die alone?
SP Himself: Not as long as I have you, buster.
S10: [Seemingly satisfied] Okay.
Ho. Lee. Shnikees. Everytime -- Every.Freakin.Time -- I think she's taken the cake, she finds a new cake to take.
She's like the John Robie of baked goods.
Wow...that's all I got for that one...wow. Telling your son she would die alone, because of YOU? Good job not taking the bait on that one....sheesh.
Oh she's a pip, ain't she?
Thanks for the props,
@BobbiJo.
I've really been working hard on the
@Gypsy Doctrine. Also stayed up on my flight back to Coastal City from Famous European Capital and read this collection of meditations on anger that I took from one of
@Orangedog's threads:
Taming the Tiger Within: Meditations on Transforming Difficult Emotions by Thich Nhat Hanh. Good stuff in there, even for (especially for?) the Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Loyal Order of Heathen.
He compares anger to fire and promotes the idea that, instead of repressing or ignoring your anger, you should in essence drop everything else and pay very close attention to it, respect it, try to understand its source rather than lash out at the person you blame for making you angry (cf,
@Gypsy Doctrine, "always be impeccable with your words"). He writes,
If your house is on fire, the most urgent thing to do is to go and try to put out the fire, not to run after the person you believe to be the arsonist...That is not the action of a wise person. You must go back and put out the fire. When you are angry, if you continue to interact with or argue with the other person, if you try to punish him or her, you are acting exactly like someone who runs after the arsonist while their home goes up in flames.Boo-yah!
@pollyanna: Thank goodness there are those that do choose to be soldiers, But what makes you choose and not your neighbour to do a tour of duty. I believe it is what makes SP, SP
That's a nice thing to say, @polly, and I wish I could say I was all John Wayne and "Remember the Maine" and Three Cheers for the Red-White-'n'-Blue and stuff, but in my case what made me take the crown's salt was sheer boredom.
I was nearing the end of my first term at university, walking down the street to the pub, passed by the recruiting office, noticed this poster of a jeep with a machinegun parked in front of a Hollywood-cute half-timbered German house, said to myself, "Hey, that doesn't look bad," and the next thing you know 20 years had gone by.
So you might be right -- if spur-of-the-moment decisions reached without systematic thought make SP, SP, then by golly....!
I really like this (Thich Nhat Hanh). I believe I'll need to borrow it sometime.
Ahh Oh Person of Smiles..
So you might be right -- if spur-of-the-moment decisions reached without systematic thought make SP, SP, then by golly....!
How many outcomes in life come from such moments?
*hugs*
Gypsy, sometimes we can get so intent on carrying our pain, dealing with it that we forget that there are others out there who will help carry it with us. When I first read that passage it struck me "Wow, that's true, Jesus didn't even carry his own cross the whole way, he needed help" Somewhere there is always someone to help support us and that's God working too!
oops, sorry SP the above post was mistakenly posted on your thread. My bad!
Opposing Counsel LawyerLady dispatched a couple letters to me this week, but she's doing it in a rather clever,
ha!-diss'd-ya sort of way: her past practice was always to send correspondence to my former lawyer via fax and e-mail. To me, as if to say "you don't rate immediate attention," she sends everything by snail mail.
Whatever.
This week, LawyerLady sent a long letter basically informing me that she's going unilaterally halve the amount of child support STBX pays because STBX needs extra money for babysitting.
For the past 3 days, I've been working and reworking my reply -- must be very careful, thinks I -- but I did send an interim reply on one topic, communication, because she asked for an "immediate response."
LawyerLady wrote that STBX can't "tolerate" interruptions of her working day with e-mail or text messages from me -- I guess it's just too hard on the old girl to be reminded of my existence or something.
So LawyerLady "suggested" -- with a threat of judicial intervention -- that STBX and I confine all communications to this online product,
OurFamilyWizard, which is visible to the Court and to counsel.
And to "sweeten" the deal, she said she would pay the one-year subscription of $99. Initially, I found that very insulting. She writes all kinds of stuff like that, basically creating the image of me just sort of lounging-around while STBX "spends all of her savings." She's really fond, for example, of writing that STBX needs to pay for a lot of babysitters "in order to do her job." As if I could help her out, or something, right? Like I don't have a job.
But after another nastygram from STBX I figured, "Why not?"
But (being SP Himself) I enrolled for 2 years rather than the 1 LawyerLady suggested. Why? Let's face it -- it's been almost 500 days since STBX dropped the bomb and she's still angry and lashing out, and we haven't even got to actual negotiations over the property distribution, so why assume another year would make that much difference?
[
Plus, and this is admittedly my childish self at work, I know that, for whatever reason (and honestly I Just.Don't.Get.It.), it really bugs STBX that I won't engage with her "personally" (i.e., face-to-face, on the phone], so to say we'll keep the "impersonal" up for another 2 years must really irritate her. (Honestly, though, why would I would engage with her on a personal level, when there'd be no record of what she says?)]
And I notified STBX's attorney, as she requested, and provided her with the form she needs to get access (the thing about the system is that you give your lawyers and the Court permission to view all your communications) -- and whaddaya think happened?
Instant E-mail from STBX: Whoa! What's the big rush? Can't I have some time to think about this? Is it necessary to spend the money?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Be careful what you wish for, eh?
Because now there's an audience for everything. No more he-said/she-said; no more forwarding only bits and pieces of my e-mail to her lawyer, carefully reconstructed to make a point (which I discovered she'd been doing after I got a copy of the correspondence file between my former lawyer and hers); no more selective rewriting of history. It's all going to be down there, black-and-white-and-read-all-over.
It can also offer some tangible litigation benefits. One of STBX's litigation strategies has been to claim I am "inflexible." Now this coming week -- when (a) I had a two-day trip scheduled for a possible job interview and (b) I was intending to visit Coastal State Border City -- STBX is being sent to Other Coast Coastal City for business and asked if I would take her custody days -- "but no problem if you can't," she wrote, "because Babysitter can do overnights."
Ya. Right.
So I canceled my interview trip (it wasn't a very strong lead, and I wasn't all that interested in the gig in the first place (not least because it was in Former Confederate State, a place I saw much too much of in the Army)) and (much to my regret) postponed my train ticket for Coastal State Border City.
Now as you DB'ers know, this is the 3rd time I've canceled plans to accommodate STBX.
But now there's a record of it.
So much for the "Inflexibility" meme.
So this online thing turned out to really be one of the better decisions I've made thus far. I was able to delete the e-mail account I used just for STBX from my mobile phone (the online system generates a once-a-day digest of any messages received), and that alone felt like a weight being taken off.
So if you're having trouble with your STBX or X over issues like custody times, kid events, messaging and the like, let this be a recommendation to Check It Out, this online thing. The kids get accounts they can use to have private messages with their parents (not visible to the "other" parent); the parents have to deal openly, since both lawyers (or the Court or all of the above) get to look in on you; and there's no opportunities for
My-Cell-Dropped-Your-Call-(Just As You Were Asking Me To Pick The Kids Up Tonight)-style B.S.
SP,
Good to see you've kept your sense of humor.
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. My former job kept me around a LOT of them. One did a study on post-divorce litigation and why. One rock-solid conclusion of the study was that lawyers don't play nice before, during or after divorce. The other good conclusion was that all that nastiness didn't have a positive impact on the children (as evidenced by court-ordered treatment and counseling).
The purpose of a chevauchee is to show that your sovereign can't protect you and to deny victuals and labor since the land can't be worked. It's a Bronx cheer on an army scale. So far STXW is denying you counsel and employment opportunity. How can you change the game? Can you turn this into a war of attrition or a media campaign or irregular warfare?
Henry V resurrected the chevauchee and came out with a stunning victory against all odds. He also died of camp fever. The odds favored that end for Hal because of his life of constant campaigning.
I like the OurFamilyWizard. Are there other ways that you can change the game? I only worry about you and themselves.
Your cheering Section
SpinFree
I checked out OurFamilyWizard a while ago and love the idea. So far I haven't been able to get stbx to agree to it. So far what she is balking at is the cost, but I believer her biggest issue with it (and the biggest advantage I would have) is the fact that it eliminates the selective rewriting of history.
@Thinker -- you can pay for her. At that point there's no choice if you just start limiting your communications to the platform.
My challenge right now is that LawyerLady won't respond to, or acknowledge receipt of, any of my letters. I've had to send one registered mail on child support, because she's trying to do this trick 50% reduction again.
This, despite the fact that STBX's "business trip" to Other Coast Coastal City turns out, according to the Themselves, to be only a half-week of business and a half-week of (her words, per Themselves) "all about the fun with her friend."
Now I could give a rat's a** about what STBX does, but I did go to some effort to rearrange my schedule to help her "work," and LawyerLady ought to at least have the cojones to acknowledge that much.
I like -- snark -- how STBX also just out of the blue reneged on her plans with Themselves to take them on vacation the last week of August. "We'll" have to find alternate child care for them, says she. "What do you mean, 'we,' white man?" says I.
But I took them that week anyway. I mean, really -- what the fark?
Tucking them in last night, both of them asked me why Mommy likes her friends better than she likes them. I managed to squeeze out some "I can't speak for your mother, but I sure like you" mumbo-jumbo before kissing them goodnight. Then I went out to the driveway, got in the car, and screamed my head off.
Tucking them in last night, both of them asked me why Mommy likes her friends better than she likes them. I managed to squeeze out some "I can't speak for your mother, but I sure like you" mumbo-jumbo before kissing them goodnight.
Good Daddy... *hugs*
Then I went out to the driveway, got in the car, and screamed my head off.
Good Father.. Good Man... Good release.
*hugs*
You're great about defining what is in your power.. like not being able to speak for their mom but letting them know how incredible they are to you. A solid foundation built on love, caring and personal sense of responsibility for your children.
You're pretty neat.
Be the Dad.. there's none better.
*hugs*
PS.. Sounds like it's time to hire a lawyer who feeds on this type of scenario.
Another cake taken.
Even though all messages on OurFamilyWizard have court visibility, it wrote this day before yesterday:
I don't care how many extra days you take or how willing you are to take custody when I ask, I WILL NEVER RECIPROCATE!! And I don't care how many letters you write or motions you file, I WILL NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH YOU AND NEITHER WILL MY LAWYER!!
I'm sure the judge will be very happy to hear that a case is going to trial because the Petitioner -- the Petitioner, for the gods' sakes, the one who wanted the divorce in the first place -- refused to work towards a settlement.
Oooooo-kay.
It better start thinking clearly, though. Mandatory court hearing at the end of August. No settlement negotiations until then means they don't start in earnest until September, earliest. In one year of lawyering, nothing has been produced; which means it needs to start thinking about the fact that, unless there's something down by the end of December, all the money it paid this year will not be tax-deductible. And since money is what it cares about, maybe that will be a wake-up call -- though I'm doubtful.
The old Trojan Horse trick.
I think @Thinker's on to something. Read this today:
The simplest everyday way that narcissists show their exaggerated sense of self-importance is by talking about family...as if there is nobody else in the picture. Whatever they may be doing...they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility [and] that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. They ignore or denigrate the abilities and contributions of others and complain that they receive no help at all...
They expect automatic compliance with their wishes...and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated...
It's impossible to overemphasize the importance of narcissists' lack of empathy. It colors everything about them...A striking thing about narcissists that you'll notice if you know them for a long time is that their ideas of themselves and the world don't change with experience...In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them...
The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath...really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict facts...If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy...
They are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people...
They lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations....
When I told STBX that I was going to ask some of the parents at school who are also attorneys for help in drafting my motion for child support, *Bang-o!*
"Oh, well, I'm sure it doesn't have to come to that...."
Because, you know, people might think poorly of Her Highness, or something.
fwiw, Smiley...your quote describes my xH precisely.
he's particularly good at continuing to look good, too. as a chaplain, he comes across as compassionate and empathetic...but it's all about just that--how he comes across. expectation of automatic compliance, talking about family as if bearing heroic responsibility. he was recommended for priesthood 4 months AFTER he left in large part of his "commitment to family and example as a good spouse and father."
the only time I ever felt physically threatened by him was when I threatened to expose to his work colleagues (since this was happening at work)--and he got in my face and screamed and threatened me.
I see some amazing similarities with your stbx.
SP- I totally believe that your wife does have NPD. My mother seems to lean towards it (I hate to say it outright). It's all about her and her wants- ah, *gasp*-"you mean your not going to do what I want?!", instant tears, martyr role, evil daughter for not complying with mother's every whim....
I am reading some great books on how to deal with the mother with NPD. FOr some reason the sons seem to grown up ok but the daughters get manipulated or put down or criticized, verbally attacked, etc. Please watch for your daugher-built her esteem up ok- narc mom's seem to tear daughters down....
It's all about her and her wants- ah, *gasp*-"you mean your not going to do what I want?!", instant tears, martyr role, evil daughter for not complying with mother's every whim....
This actually sounds more like BPD:
NPD: "I'm so superior that everyone else should adore me and love me and do what I want. Anyone who does not do this threatens my (actually very fragile)sense of superiority and is therefore evil."
BPD: "My emotional needs are so great that I can't even begin to think about anyone else. Everyone else should focus solely on filling my needs. Anyone who does not do this is abandoning me and is therefore evil."
Both end up being manipulative, angry, abusive, unempathetic, etc.
Both end up blaming others for their problems, conveniently adjusting facts to meet their views of the world, etc.
Neither will admit that they are actually even part of the problem.
Neither is capable of introspection, and therefore neither is capable of changing.
It's nice to think of a 'them' and 'us', where we're right and they're wrong, they're unreasonable and we are the picture of calm and mental health.
Oddly enough, bipolar disorder is more widely diagnosed because new medicines can benefit finer and finer degrees of that disorder. Before only the huge swings of 'manic/depression' could be managed, if that. Now with medication and therapy folks can take control and move past the negative aspects of the disorder.
Narcissism tends to be an ingrained trait where traditional methods of treatment do not work. And based on this disorder, folks are highly unlikely to seek the integrated therapeutic approaches because of their subconscious fears.
To me, the difference comes down in seeking treatment and doing what it takes to get healthy. And I think core fears surface with both parties with a sense of entitlement kicking in.
I think the words 'selfish', 'sense of entitlement', 'revenge' along with many others come to mind. And in the end, the person who wants out most (to protect the children, save whatever assets are left) capitulate to finish the process.
Divorce is emotionally and financially devastating for all involved, the couple, kids, extended family, close friends.
I figure I tried to do the best job possible (which many times faltered) without intentionally inflicting harm. Perhaps I was too nice.. but that's a learning curve too.
And, I'm posting because I hate those sweeping generalizations, even when nasty behavior warrants those terms.
Someone recently told me, be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. I have yet to accomplish that.
Smile Guy.. I'm sorry you and your kids have to go through your divorcing spouse's asinine and irrational behavior. Are you seeking additional legal counsel? Only you know what will work for you.
*hugs*
Interesting- for years I thought BPD too but the negative snarky comments, put downs and attempting at controlling my life, etc. made me see things differently. Who knows?
Regardless, I think SP has to really take on the role of super parent- I just worry that the soon-to-be Mrs. SP can really affect their self-esteem (especially the girl they really cling to their moms....) Shame...
@Thinker: Neither is capable of introspection
Cue Emeril: BAM!
That's STBX in a nutshell.
it's as if there's some ticking time bomb that we could only see in retrospect. there were subtleties...the self-absorption, the lack of self-insight but ability to read others amazingly well (altho rarely choosing to respond compassionately to their observations), the consistent prioritizing of self over marriage or children. and then something sets off the bomb--trauma, death of a family member, or just realizing they're middle-aged--and the brakes come off. take no prisoners, screw the collateral damage, I'm entitled to happiness by god and you're not gonna keep me from it...in fact, come to think of it, I'm entitled to whatever I decide I want at any given time. which includes my good reputation and being admired and adored by friends, colleagues and onlookers.
sound familiar? somebody really should do a study (can you tell I work in research now?) because this is such a consistent syndrome of behaviors, and it's so destructive to society in general...know any grant-writers?
Note (just as a clarification), by BPD I was referring to "Borderline Personality Disorder", not "Bipolar Disorder"
Hey SP,
Hanging in there?
How are themselves holding up?
SpinFree
Sadly, yet another innocent pastry has been taken in the prime of its life.
Late last night, as I've just about channel-surfed my way into the proper mental zone for entrance into the Chamber of Sleep, yonder comes the tentative slap of bare feet on hardwood, The Boy Himself carried along by them, crying and wakeful because he's haunted by the image of himself as he was told his mother was leaving us (a year ago this coming Sunday).
So he talked and cried a bit, and I stroked his hair and patted his shoulder, and when I asked him, as I always do, if he'd shared these feelings with the mother in question, he told me, as he always does, that he hadn't.
So I had him call her, right then and there, and lay it on her.
Which p*ssed her off, apparently, because she was on a date.
"Oh well, too bad, so sad," as They Themselves like to say.
This evening, it was the Girl Herself's turn: Mommy says divorcing you was the best choice she ever made in her life, which means it was better than choosing to be our mother!
Well, well, well. So I did my thing -- can't speak for your mother, etc., but if I had to guess, I'd be pretty sure she meant best choice about her situation, but that she really thinks it was only the THIRD best choice of her life, after you and your brother, blah blah blah. But that's not what she said!
Well, sweetie, your mother has lots of special qualities, but I have to admit she's never been really all that good at making herself clear (he said, chuckling demonically to himself because Boy, Howdy! ain't that the truth?).
Then I posted a little message about kid talk on the website, asking her if she wouldn't be so kind as to reinforce for Themselves that the Wonderfulness of dumping me pales in comparison to the Wonderfulness of being their mother.
"I use the word, 'reinforce,'" I added, "because I have complete confidence that you've already told them this plenty of times, but maybe you just haven't found the words that will make them really get it."
Which p*ssed her off, apparently, because she was on a date.
How terrible it must be to have to act like their mother.
Feel for ya man.
SpinFree
Thanks for the props, SF.
A "one of those days" day today. Themselves are still a bit off-center owing to these dumb-a** things STBX says, plus we were doing our photo album, and they were reminded of things from pictures we took at the ocean a year ago today - where I'd taken them to avoid having to watch their mother move out. And so it occurred to me that, if it's been 365 since STBX moved out then it will be 500 days since she dropped a bomb on me this Tuesday. And yet we're no closer to closure today than we were then. Who said time flies?
Hey Smile Guy..
*hugs*
Good to hear that 'something' in your tone, and am awed, as always, by your parenting and love of Themselves.
*hugs*
What a nice thing to say :-)
500 days on, things I still don't get (and probably never will):
1. How do you not understand that when our children relate that you're still seeing "your friend" in Upstate City -- that being the only "your friend" you have there, Signore Schmuckatelli, unto whom you chose to cleave outside the bonds of wedded matrimony to me -- I find that to be a paradigm case of
Adding Insult To Injury?
2. Since you're the one who wanted the D, since you're the one who filed for the D, since you're the one who moved out, since you're the one who has said,
inter alia, you
- don't love me anymore
- have no attraction for me as a man anymore
- have built a wall against me
- just want your freedom and your bliss
- love your freedom
- have you bliss
- think divorcing me is the best thing you've ever done
- intend to bust my b*lls in court
- are reminded every day just how right you were that we never had anything
- think a complete stranger on the street would know you better than I ever did
- are thrilled you can finally explore your sexuality
- can't wait for this to be done so you can get as close as possible to forgetting I ever existed
then, um, what's up with the b*tchy attitude and the anger and the hating-on?
Why aren't you happy that you're getting what you've so often said to me and dozens of others --
including our children! -- that you want more than anything in the world?
3. Why, after enlightening to me as to the various and sundry yee-haws enumerated in #2, above, do you then expect me (a) to believe you when you say you
- regret it turned out this way
- feel like you'll never have love in your life again
- know that no one will ever love you the way I did
- feel so sad that you had to give up on someone you loved
- wish I had been able to read your mind so that this never would have happened
- feel so much darkness in your life
and (b) expect that I would care even if I did believe you?
4. How is it you can't understand why, in light of the various and sundry enumerated #2's and #3's, I really don't care to have a "nice relationship where we get together from time-to-time?"
And, above all,
5. How do you not understand that I didn't turn handsprings last fall when you said,
(a) "
So I understand you've started seeing someone. Well it's either her or me" (which I was apparently supposed to understand meant you were coming back or thinking about coming back or thinking about thinking about coming back or coming back to thinking about thinking about coming back or something),
just 1 week after saying,
(b) "
If only you had just let me go and be on my own for awhile to explore and find out who I am, everything would be different,"
when (b) translates --
by your own admission -- to "
If only you had just let me go and f*ck around with a bunch of men until I got it out of my system, everything would be different,"
because I might actually have thoughts about the idea of your "explorations" (and for what? 6 months? A year? 2 years?), or, worse, maybe even
feelings about it? And that I might not be the same person in the same place at the end that I was at the beginning, even though you seem to assume that we were all just supposed to suspend our lives while you went walkabout?
Or was I just supposed to be the bigger one? Or the rock? Or the source of stability? Or the stoker of the Home Fires to be kept burning? Or all the other things that, apparently, were perfectly splendid reasons for leaving me in the first place?
Does Not Compute, Will Robinson; does not compute.
Oh, SP - Your #2 is my life. Really, WTF is their problem? I'm smiling broadly now, and I DID NOT want this!
SP, like mindfull your #2 is where STBXW is at too. So thank you for writing it. I've saved it as a draft email that perhaps someday I'll launch at her when the timing is right lol
Does Not Compute, Will Robinson; does not compute.
And trying too SP is the undoing of you at times.
Just let it go.
Your life SP is a perfect reflection of your beliefs.
I disagree, Polly. Seeking to understand something doesn't "undo" a person. One can accept that gravity exists and still wonder how it might be proved (maybe we just really have very sticky feet).
I disagree, Polly. Seeking to understand something doesn't "undo" a person. One can accept that gravity exists and still wonder how it might be proved (maybe we just really have very sticky feet).
When I got out of the Air Force and went into the Fin Adv business it threw me for a loop when you could present a plan that was very prudent and addressed a clients needs and they wouldn't take action. Most people don't take action based on logic (military is void of emotion in planning) people take action based on feeling good about their decision.
The hard part about seeking understanding of a WAS is not to take things personally. You present a good argument logically about why not get this over with. But STBX- Mrs Smiley is still full of feelings, emotions and fears about her marriage and family. IMO you keep pricking those fears to keep some sort of contact in place. Let her deal with her snakes on her own. Let her go, become the WAS, drop the rope, detach and keep being a great Dad.
Next time she goes off on you just tell her, "it must really be hard being you, I am sorry if I am contributing to your misery in any way." Agree with her and walk away. If you truly seek understanding then let it unfold. It's not your place to rescue her from her decisions. Agree with her and watch the drama go away. Nothing to argue about when you are both on the same side. She brings up D talk just defer to your L.
Compassion, empathy, love (philia) and strong boundaries. Einstein couldn't use logic to figure out women.
"Some men spend a lifetime in an attempt to comprehend the complexities of women. Others pre-occupy themselves with somewhat simpler tasks, such as understanding the theory of relativity!
A few facts always ruin a good academic argument. Debates over feelings have no facts that appear on the surface, the feelings are deep in the soul and triggered by past memories. Create new healthy memories based on the triggers and the dynamic has changed. Stop asking her to defend her negative thoughts and actions. Just agree that she must be hurting. Watch the dynamic change.
Cheers Mate
Yes, very good points.
Just to be clear, though, the "things I don't understand" post was me musing to myself - not actual words I've said to STBX.
Yes, very good points.
Just to be clear, though, the "things I don't understand" post was me musing to myself - not actual words I've said to STBX.
I get it, you wouldn't be you if you couldn't learn something from this. Let STBX be herself and figure it out her way. That's also a boundary - you are you in all your glory and she is herself in all her glory.
@Coach: she is herself in all her gloryNegative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.
Yet more evidence in support of the hypothesis that STBX was abducted by aliens, vaporized with Dark Matter, and replaced by a Bizarro World cyborg replicant terminator: she's gone off for the weekend with her boyfriend.
Her
Limey boyfriend.
On
Independence Day.
Treasonous wench! I blow my nose at her with her so-called Arthur King -- him and his
silly English ka-nnnnnnnnnnigits!.
Treasonous wench! I blow my nose at her with her so-called Arthur King -- him and his silly English ka-nnnnnnnnnnigits!
Interesting to note the early version of the vuvuzela in this clip.
Was helping Good Christian Man Friend pack -- he's relocating to be near his fiancee -- and we were chit-chatting and chat-chitting and he asked about the World o' Walkaways and what did I miss most about being married to STBX?
And I puzzled three hours 'til my puzzler was sore.
For the life of me, I couldn't remember. Not only could I not remember what I miss about being married to STBX -- not as a "real" memory, that is, as a sensory memory as opposed to a kind of intellectual abstraction -- I couldn't remember what it felt like to be married to STBX. "When was the last time you knew it was good?" asked GCMF.
And even with the blows of Mjolnir upside my rusty brain pan, I couldn't generate so much as a twinge of a ghost of a hint of a recollection of a shadow of a time when I affirmatively felt warmly towards her. I know I did. At least, I think I did. But I couldn't access it. It was like reading history -- you can know what happened to some historical figure, but you can't know it. You know?
1987 we met. Apart now 18 months. And the shadow of those 18 months is so long and so deep that it has snuffed out the dimly flickering candlelight of remembrance. And in a weird way, I sort of mourn the loss of remembrance more than I mourn the loss of STBX. It's as if the totality of divorce is so...well, total...that it takes away even the fleeting pleasure of Remember When.
Weird how that happens.
Long story short: STBX got some nerve injury on her last out-of-area adventure. She's been to the barber thrice this week. She's on vaguely heavy pain meds. It's also her custody time. She insists on keeping the time. Themselves are trying to be brave, but the sight of a parent-in-pain is frightening to them. Neither one of us really has anyone "here" -- we were always the "here" person for each other.
So. If I offer to watch Themselves, prepare their meals (and, incidentally, feed Herself as well, since there would obviously be food), and make myself available on an as-needed basis while she works through this injury... is that rescuing? Is that sticking my nose in "her" time (a la @Gypsy)?
Or is it just doing what needs to be done? I don't want to DB this woman, but look -- this is a divorce, not a suicide mission. She's stubborn, but even she's not so stubborn that she'll kill herself (metaphorically) simply to look "good."
So should I kill myself -- which I'd be doing, psychically, with worry -- and remain the Paragon of Solitary Manitude?
Or should I just be what I am -- a sap of a father -- and pitch in when it's needed?
Hey Smile Guy..
Yikes...
A few thoughts.
What would you need if the roles were reversed? A day after a surgical procedure (with a six week recovery time) while married, the former spouse left for a two week business trip. It happened often. I called in the help of friends since I, too, was without anyone 'here'.
Would you make an offer to assist with time with the kids and return them at night?
Allow her to make her own decisions and decide if she really needs your help or not?
Parenting is a worrisome time with or without a nuclear family. The kids will not wither away and die while they're with their mother.
In the end your worry is presumptive and controlling. You are deciding that their mother is incapable in caring for her children when she is not 100%.
Let her make her own decisions, not what makes you feel better to ease your assumptions.
She is an adult, after all.
No, I'm not deciding that. I'm evaluating my experience of her, and my knowledge of her, and her past actions and past statements ("I'm more important than they are"), and my experience of their experiences with her ("all mommy had in the house to eat was cereal and soda pop").
And I'm wondering whether I can be available to help without violating my own boundary.
I don't have to surrender my fatherhood just because they're sleeping under someone else's roof -- someone who hasn't exactly shown the soundest judgment in the last 2 years, by her own admission.
Would your reaction have been different if instead of pain medication it had been unsecured firearms? Well, they might accidentally blow each other's heads off, but oh well - you're assuming she hasn't given each of them comprehensive weapons-handling instruction.
So if you want to talk about assumptions, you might consider starting by abandoning the assumption that every woman has your maternal skill-set.
As recently as the month she moved out of the house STBX did not know how to change batteries in smoke detectors. And you might recall, she asked if I could check out some work in her bathroom she was hiring an electrician for, because the light suddenly stopped working. After changing the bulb, I assured her an electrician would be unnecessary.
Where I live children do die from being with parents who don't quite get it. Mine are not going to be somebody's Mulligan.
Hi SP..
Did their mom know how to change a light bulb before she left? And this is the same person you left in charge of the kids when you were putting your life on the line.
And you are the dad, a father. And your kids' welfare comes first. However based on a court agreement it is her right to accept or reject your assistance if offered. It is her decision if she chooses to ask for your help.
What can you do as a concerned parent if she cuts you off?
You have that handy dandy online legal site where everything is documented.
You have kids who know how to use the phone. And are old enough and aware enough to speak up to her and/or you if they have concerns.
Sharing my experience was not showing my maternal skill-set. It's just that you manage as best you can. If she consistently shows an inability to sufficiently care for her children, document it. If she is unwilling to accept your assistance while in a drugged state, document it. If you truly feel your children are at risk, remove them from the danger and worry about the consequences later.
But you're a smart guy. You already know all that.
Your love and care for your children resonates in all your actions. But at the core.. it's like it seems that you try to control your divorcing spouse through helping without being asked. By assuming that you know her needs based on the prior relationship shared as husband and wife.
It hurts to be rejected, especially for something that is at the core of your being. Giving with love. Taking care of things.
And however I try to bumble through this.. it's where it seems that the downfall is. When you're exceptionally nurturing and caring to her, she thanks you.. then turns around and thwacks you upside the head with a red hot iron skillet.
And it's painful to be on the sideline as a parent.
Just know why you're doing what you do.
And say it outright.
*hugs*
Did she know how to change lightbulb pre-D? No. I didn't know that at the time, though -- I was always the one who changed them. She could recognize when a bulb was burned out in a lamp, say, but inside a fixture like you have in a bathroom? For all she knew there were pixies inside of it.
Anyway, it's all mox nix at this point.
I spent the better part of the last week running numbers and scenarios, and they all add up to....I can't afford to live here -- not with shared custody, and not on what I'm paid.
Time to cowboy up and enjoy my last year of active parenting.
I spent the better part of the last week running numbers and scenarios, and they all add up to....I can't afford to live here -- not with shared custody, and not on what I'm paid.
Do you think that is being used to drag this out and used as leverage in the end?
You are on my prayer list SP.
Thanks for that, Coach. I think she's indeed trying to leverage the outcome by running my well dry; that's the only possible explanation (in my POV) for her lawyer's insistence only on writing letters -- never speaking -- and on simply saying "no" to every initiative, no matter how trivial.
I suppose one can pretend what's real isn't, but at the end of the day you can't run from the facts. That's one of the great DB lessons, isn't it?
Barring a major lottery win -- which would be a good trick, since I don't buy lottery tickets -- it would appear that the clock is ticking on my continued residence in Coastal State.
I have an interview in Pennsylvania next month, as well as one in southern Virginia. The idea of only 2 months in the summer with Themselves is repellent to me, but so is the idea of not having enough to sustain them here in Coastal State (and the idea of having them compare their life with me to their life with STBX just a few miles away).
And on top of it, STBX continues to STBX. She seems unable to tolerate my being Darkly. She's like a dog with a bone on this friends-during-divorce notion Walkaways seem to get and finds every excuse to torment me with it: "I never wanted there to be this distance between us."
Ummm, Earth to Planet STBX, WTF, over?
Maybe I'm just thin-skinned, but when someone says she has no feelings for me, isn't attracted to me, has no respect for me as a man, has built a wall against me, has to leave me or she'll die, needs to be able to explore her sexuality and that's impossible with me, loathes me, wishes I would just die, is reminded every time she's with the various Signores Schmuckatelli how great it is, tells the children dumping me was the best thing she's ever done in her life, well.........
That seems pretty, oh, "distance-y" to me. But maybe it's just me. But when I was DB'ing, trying to close the distance, being Smiley, doing the outings, all the DB Telephone Coach Repertoire, there was no response.
But now STBX will, in the midst of an otherwise completely ordinary child custody e-mail, whip out as evidence of my perfidy this "opening" she (claims to have) tried to create: "I tried, but you're obviously uninterested. Lesson learned."
And what was this "offer?"
Hey, um, if you ever feel like grabbing a coffee or something for a few minutes, give me a shout and maybe we could meet at the cafe in the morning and shoot the sh*t -- nothing specific, you know, whenever.
LOL. Fear commitment much? I love the quadripple conditionals and the ultimate passing of the buck to me -- so if coffee never materializes it will be my fault.
And the d*mnedest thing is that she wants Themselves to have passports so she can take them to European Capital, where the latest Signore Schmuckatelli resides, but the law requires that we BOTH be present when their applications are processed.
So that should be a pleasant hour or two in line....
Interesting on the passports. XW just got one for one of my sons, all I had to do was sign the form and get it notarized. Then I took it to her, and she took care of it. I don't believe that you have to be there, make sure!
Why would she get custody when her scheduling choices (and work schedule) don't match up with the kids' needs? When you are the nurturing parent with documented proof, no less?
Aren't there lawyers who know how to rip the velcro butts off the other? Why is she in the driver's seat? After all, the best defense is a good offense.
You're filled with angst when your kids are limited to cereal and soda pop at their mom's house. And now you might possibly be limited to two months a year?
Go guerrilla warfare on her. Nip, gnash, unsettle her position to the point where your are the pain in the ass and she just wants to be done with you.
She is your adversary.
You're not a wuss.
Cogitate and mojolate, baby.
*hugs*
Why would she get custody when her scheduling choices (and work schedule) don't match up with the kids' needs? When you are the nurturing parent with documented proof, no less?
Because I can't afford to live here on what I make, and the fattest job market for my particular skillset is on the other coast.
You're filled with angst when your kids are limited to cereal and soda pop at their mom's house. And now you might possibly be limited to two months a year?
And now perhaps you understand
why I'm filled with angst at such times.
------
Re: Passports. This is what the Gubmint says:
When applying for a minor under age 16, both parent(s)/guardian(s) must present acceptable identification at the time of application.I
could consent w/notarized documentation if there was a custody decree, but since the D isn't final yet there isn't one. Bit of a Catch-22.
We sent in the passport application, so as long as all the signatures were notarized, I guess it worked. There's always a catch!
I'm kind of unclear on why you don't see filing for primary custody as an option? So themselves can live with you where your job market is best and visit STBX for two months in the summer?
Is Cali that tilted in favor of Sacred Motherhood that you don't even think it's worth trying?
'That' has been hard for me to accept, but it's the doggone truth!
I'm kind of unclear on why you don't see filing for primary custody as an option? So themselves can live with you where your job market is best and visit STBX for two months in the summer?
Is Cali that tilted in favor of Sacred Motherhood that you don't even think it's worth trying?
This was my question as well. Even if Virginia isn't the fanciest of these here 50 states, I'm a thinkin' that they still have those day care-thingamajigs. Or nannies.
It could be done, right? I was the stay-at-homer in my sitch for a few years, I still have an income just 1/5 of my xH's and I got primary custody...made sense because he travels a solid 100 days plus per year. I have the more reliable schedule and parenting history, so they live with me more than with him...
Have to think about it this way: do I want to create that kind of drawn-out custody battle? Would it serve their best interests? Could I afford it, recognizing the toughness of that sell to a court system that really likes 50/50: take the children away from what's familiar, away from their friends, and away from a mother who earns over a quarter-million dollars (and owns or co-owns income-producing properties here and there worth over a million), when even under the best of best-case scenarios I'd command less than half that? Just to substitute babysitters here for babysitters there?
Doesn't look like much a hand to play, at least not to me.
The former spouse made $350K. I was a stay at home mom.
His choice of lawyers depleted all our savings, stocks and bonds leaving both of us with debt. Somehow I financed at least $40,000 of his sizable legal fees which placed me in a very tenuous position.
I have the house, a steadily depreciating asset which in spite of competitive pricing has not sold. This is my chunk of the settlement.
He does not give a cent to the two older boys, which includes not contributing a dime to any aspect of their college education or any associated costs. He pays the court prescribed amount of support for our minor daughter but not one penny over.. nothing for her extracurricular activities, voice lessons. Period.
I live in one of the most expensive counties in the country and made a vow that I would not uproot my children. That with their father's abandonment (and even without that) that where ever I am is home. That I am their Mom and I'm not going anywhere.
My daughter was 13 when he left, one of the most dangerous developmental ages with a divorce and a father's abandonment. Drugs, drinking, promiscuous behavior.. you name, it kicks in with the situation she was in. I focused on her passions. She loves theater. She knows that her voice lessons are as important as the mortgage.
My goal for the kids was for them to feel safe and secure. Although my financial future was rocky, I wanted them to have a firm foundation, to know that they are loved, respected and accepted. That I am and will always be their mom.. that although the family shattered, that the love I have always remains.
When the house sells, I'll move to a condo that's 30 years old in the same area of town. It will be small, out dated, hopefully have three bedrooms. The Lexus is gone. The affluent lifestyle a thing of the past. But.. stuff is stuff.
And nothing can replace a caring, nurturing parent. And you are such a father.
So.. your divorcing spouse has been terrified of you getting alimony, even though it's standard in your situation. She skirts around your potential earnings.. which ends up being a fantasy number in today's economy.
The dynamics I've observed with your situation is that she manipulates you in whatever form she desires.
Screw her.. just screw her (not in the Schmuckatellis manner). It's not about her. It's about what your children, Themselves, will lose without YOU.
Divorce is exhausting. It's financially and emotionally devastating. Your lifestyle will be altered dramatically. But in the end, the most important aspect is intangible. Is being a father, THE father to your beautiful, joyful, beaming children.
Kick ass... and assure their future foundation is based on love, trust, being the example of a strong and noble man for your son and showing your daughter what to expect with love and relationships, how to be treated by a man.
And then.. just then.. your children will be able to grow and develop healthy relationships now and in the future based on the father who is always there.
You're worth it.
They're worth it.
*hugs*
Makes you want to stand up and cheer!
The former spouse made $350K. I was a stay at home mom.
His choice of lawyers depleted all our savings, stocks and bonds leaving both of us with debt. Somehow I financed at least $40,000 of his sizable legal fees which placed me in a very tenuous position.
I have the house, a steadily depreciating asset which in spite of competitive pricing has not sold. This is my chunk of the settlement.
He does not give a cent to the two older boys, which includes not contributing a dime to any aspect of their college education or any associated costs. He pays the court prescribed amount of support for our minor daughter but not one penny over.. nothing for her extracurricular activities, voice lessons. Period.
I live in one of the most expensive counties in the country and made a vow that I would not uproot my children. That with their father's abandonment (and even without that) that where ever I am is home. That I am their Mom and I'm not going anywhere.
My daughter was 13 when he left, one of the most dangerous developmental ages with a divorce and a father's abandonment. Drugs, drinking, promiscuous behavior.. you name, it kicks in with the situation she was in. I focused on her passions. She loves theater. She knows that her voice lessons are as important as the mortgage.
My goal for the kids was for them to feel safe and secure. Although my financial future was rocky, I wanted them to have a firm foundation, to know that they are loved, respected and accepted. That I am and will always be their mom.. that although the family shattered, that the love I have always remains.
When the house sells, I'll move to a condo that's 30 years old in the same area of town. It will be small, out dated, hopefully have three bedrooms. The Lexus is gone. The affluent lifestyle a thing of the past. But.. stuff is stuff.
And nothing can replace a caring, nurturing parent. And you are such a father.
So.. your divorcing spouse has been terrified of you getting alimony, even though it's standard in your situation. She skirts around your potential earnings.. which ends up being a fantasy number in today's economy.
The dynamics I've observed with your situation is that she manipulates you in whatever form she desires.
Screw her.. just screw her (not in the Schmuckatellis manner). It's not about her. It's about what your children, Themselves, will lose without YOU.
Divorce is exhausting. It's financially and emotionally devastating. Your lifestyle will be altered dramatically. But in the end, the most important aspect is intangible. Is being a father, THE father to your beautiful, joyful, beaming children.
Kick ass... and assure their future foundation is based on love, trust, being the example of a strong and noble man for your son and showing your daughter what to expect with love and relationships, how to be treated by a man.
And then.. just then.. your children will be able to grow and develop healthy relationships now and in the future based on the father who is always there.
You're worth it.
They're worth it.
*hugs*
This post RAWKED!!!
Puppy
Perhaps. Perhaps.
But this fellow offered me a job, you see. Seems like a nice guy. Apparently there's some question as to whether or not he's a "real" American, and a bunch of looney-tunes keep asking him for a copy of his birth certificate. But he does live in this really smashing house, nice set-back, beautiful rose garden. Anyway, I'm supposed to drop by again on my way back from Southern European City week after next. So there's that to contend with, too. I hear he's pretty persuasive.
Maybe he considers you one of "the best and the brightest"!
It might be challenging and exciting. They've beefed up the retirement system...you can work for em' without making a lifetime commitment of it. Then again, there's always the red tape, resource instability due to changing Administration and Congressional priorities, and targeting of agencies, programs, and individuals for attack by political figures are still day-to-day realities.
BTW, that post by Gypsy was damn good stuff!
Whatever you choose...good luck!
Ohh.. he's the one with two cute kids.
I hear they have nifty schools. If this guy is persuasive enough maybe he can get a higher up judge to review the divorce and wrap it all up. The time to relocate is before the kids are in high school. And I figure you're a pretty persuasive guy in your own right when it comes to the incentives it would take to move.
If not, wouldn't it be a really cool thing if both parents are too busy with their careers for the kids! (Cheap shot.. I know)
Tough spot.
Am exhausted. Physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically.
The nice man with the nice house back East wants to give me a job. But that job would require a lot of overseas travel.
Fellow with a job in the old Duce's country has offered it to me. Buck-twenty, housing, generous car allowance (got my eye on one of those Fasteratis).
Another fellow in Old Down East state wants to offer me a gig. Buck and a nickel, ridiculously priced housing (could get me a circa 1790 stone farmhouse at 4,700 sq. ft. with an in-ground cement pond, a stone barn at 1,500 sq. ft. kitted out as an office and gym and workshop, and 14 acres of land for my horses (or ATVs, as the case may be), for under Two-Fitty.
But all of them mean leaving Themselves. A Rubicon I just can't cross at the moment.
Which leaves me here, a la @Thinker, in Limboland.
There's a lot of living out there. I don't see much of it here.
Meanwhile, I just keep on keeping on, breaking up my past patterns, much to the [often amusing] frustration of STBX Herself.
She busted herself up somehow but refuses to ask for help, though Themselves tell me she laments not having it when they're chez STBX -- but I'm dammmmmed if I'm going to offer it.
She changes the custody schedule, I accept; then the "urgent thing" is suddenly less urgent and she wants to go back to the original, "unless you have already made plans."
I reply that whether or not I have plans is irrelevant; the schedule is set, I agreed to the change, and that's that.
She pokes, she probes, she prods; Bartleby-like, I let it all pass by, preferring not to respond. So she ups the ante: "Can I ask you something? Do you ever miss being married to me?"
That's a fine way to end a mandatory appearance at The Boy's birthday party, the two of us athwart a booth-table of rapidly diminishing size, Herself looking like Herself -- a dangerous thing.
And Smiley's Person smiles a Cheshire smile, looks directly and deeply into her eyes, pouring it all on, and in his best whisky voice murmurs, "I'm sorry - did you say something?"
Who the he'll had a stone farmhouse in 1790 that had 4700 sq. feet in it? Wow! Sounds nice!
She seems to get some satisfaction/security with knowing that she still has some part of you...uh, er...knowing that some part of you still cares...to some degree.
But all of them mean leaving Themselves. A Rubicon I just can't cross at the moment.
So how could you find a job that appeals to you and have Themselves the majority of the time? There has to be a acceptable solution.
Yossarian: Is Orr crazy?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Of course he is. He has to be crazy to keep flying after all his close calls he's had.
Yossarian: Why can't you ground him?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: I can, but first he has to ask me.
Yossarian: That's all he's gotta do to be grounded?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: That's all.
Yossarian: Then you can ground him?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: No. Then I cannot ground him.
Yossarian: Aah!
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: There's a CATCH?
Yossarian: A catch?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Sure. Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat isn't really crazy, so I can't ground him.
Yossarian: Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. In order to be grounded, I've got to be crazy. And I must be crazy to keep flying. But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy anymore, and I have to keep flying.
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: You got it, that's Catch-22.
Yossarian: Whoo... That's some catch, that Catch-22.
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: It's the best there is.
What would happen if you were give notice that you were moving and planning to take the kids with you?
ie: It's in the best interest of the kids to have a more stable financial future, a happier primary care giver, a bigger house (with a pool and a pony
), safer schools etc etc
Mandatory court appearance on Friday. We will see what the New Mouthpiece does and how Hizzoner responds.
At the end of "Where the Buffalo Roam," the not-entirely-successful film "inspired by the twisted legend of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson," Dr. Gonzo
(YouTube @ 1:42) laments that "it still hasn't gotten weird enough for me."
Of course, Dr. Gonzo wasn't being divorced by STBX.
It has gotten
way weird enough for me. Too weird even for my usual recounting of events. Allow me, if you might, to give an example:
For reasons known only unto STBX Herself, I have recently been accused of causing her -- by virtue of my comparative inaccessibility -- so much stress that she cannot sleep and has acquired a nerve malady so severe that, she claims, she is "possibly suffering permanent physical damage" as a result.
She has also professed herself in possession of a
Sudden Fear, again for reasons known only unto Herself, that I am going to be "like the Blue Hills guy" -- a local getting-divorced fellow who murdered his children and committed suicide to get back at his soon-to-be-ex.
All of this is on the basis of my unwillingness to engage her in personal conversation.
Let us be clear. I have not engaged her in personal conversation. I have not yelled, cursed, raged, bemoaned, or otherwise inflicted upon her any untoward emotional states. From time-to-time, I have asked empirical questions. I have made arrangements for the children.
Above all, I have refused to
Take the Bait.
Por ejemplo:
Today, I needed to take my car in for servicing. I pointed this out to her in response to her request to drop the children off bright-and-early. I noted that I would have to get back home, which is about 6 miles from the shop. (This, I thought [though I did not share this thought], would be a good excuse for a run.) Consequently, it would have to be bright and not-so-early.
So.
No more than 48 hours after the aforementioned descriptions, she offered to give me a lift back from the shop, because this would be "better" for her. I politely declined.
She restated the offer. I declined.
She re-restated the offer.
Tiring of the game -- Miss Someone has observed that STBX has, over the past couple months, really
really really been trying to get me to play my former marital roles -- I stated that my conscience and the respect and esteem in which I hold her as the mother of our children forbade my acceptance of her very kind offer, as I was loathe indeed to put her into such close proximity with so profound a source of permanent-physical-damage-inducing, child-killing, suicide-committing stress.
To this she replied, "I am sorry to hear that."
Um, wha'? You state that in your point-of-view I'm a potential child-murderer and two days later offer me a ride, three times, which I decline, three times, and then you tell me you're sorry I'm unwilling to accept your offer? Why? Because it would be more convenient for you if I scheduled my life around your schedule, the way I used to?
Whoa.
In the
Annals of Not Getting-It-dom, this is Olympic gold medal/Stanley Cup/Lombardy Trophy/Tour de France yellow jersey-winning
Not Getting It.
Yeah, man -- it has
definitely gotten weird enough for me.
That
is some catch, that Catch-22 -- the best there is.
Well, here we go. Sitting in the courtoom, waiting for the bailiff to call Hizzoner. Saw STBX outside the courtroom -- knife, meet tension. This isn't The End, beautiful friends, but it's the beginning of The End. Let's see what Fate (and The Law - dum-dum-dummmmmm!) have in store for Smiley's Person Himself, late of The Circus, Once and Future Spy in the House of Love, sitting here in Saigon, waiting for a Mission.
Saying a prayer for your pagan @$$.
Cheers
Keep your head up, Smileys. Am praying for ya!
Thanks all - no atheists in foxholes, eh?
Lawyers are out in the hallway, trying to concoct something to tell Hizzoner. STBX is in there with them - I'm staying out of it. My presence would surely make her even more defensive as the question of her money gets dissected, especially given the fact that she apparently just made some kind of kazillion-dubloon land deal with Big Developer for some property she and her siblings inherited that their grandfather bought back in the Depression and which was always basically worthless but is now right where it should be.
Whatever they put together, I can always say "no," and I'm trying to do Right Mindfulness, so I'm sitting in courtroom outlining the Great American Divorce Book, covertly taking notes on other peoples' sitches.
++
Mouthpiece just came in with some questions:
*Would I take a lump-sum alimony buyout? Maybe, depends on how many Benjamins I'd forego. I'm not too worried about the tax implications of monthly support.
*Would I be willing to take less child custody? Not even no - oh hell f**king no. Bailiff: No swearing in court! SP Himself: sorry, don't tase me, bro.
*Would I be willing to take less child custody? Not even no - oh hell f**king no. Bailiff: No swearing in court! SP Himself: sorry, don't tase me, bro.
Don't you dare take less, what would she give up if you asked for more custody?
You don't score on 100% of the shots you don't take.
Feel like I was just crowned Miss America and then they found
those photos on-line.
Too many good lines to choose! I also enjoyed the revisit of "don't tase me, bro". That one has become a classic.
Shoulda tased me after all, bro.
*****
So. As I write this, my head feels... I don't know -- light. As if it's above the rest of me. Got back from Court about 7 hours ago. After a brief STBX interlude, I was left alone -- STBX and Themselves are off to National Park for a long weekend. (Of course, the babysitter is going, too, but that's another topic.)
Another hearing in 30 days. The Mouthpiece seemed upbeat afterwards, but then that's her job (went with a She-Mouthpiece, fighting fire with fire so to speak).
Something is definitely going on with STBX. Of course, as soon as I arrived at the courthouse, there she was -- she looked up briefly and muttered, "in there."
Afterwards, though, she found an excuse to talk to me (in front of her lawyer, 'natch). I replied civilly, agreed to let her take the SUV on the trip (I intended to anyway), and complained a bit about the other sitter, who'd sent me a text message suggesting -- well, no, saying -- that she'd left Themselves "just for a few minutes" to go check on some dogs she was dog-sitting. Pointed this out to STBX who said, "You can't trust an interpretation of a text -- people misunderstand written things all the time," which, if you've been following the (mis)adventure, was a nice little snarky dig at SP Hissef, to which her lawyer issued forth with a not-successfully-suppressed sh*t-eating grin.
Well, once again, bait not taken, just said "see you at the house" and went on my way.
But what was weird was that, after the 2.5 hours of laywerly meetings, she was grinning this odd grin -- not a "what happened" grin but a "nyah-nyah, I know something you don't" kind of grin. And she grinned it again at the house.
And what The Mouthpiece reported was also weird. STBX is giving up a lot of positions that, between us, cost roughly $40,000 to take during the long and fruitless letter-writing campaign between my Old Mouthpiece and hers. Positions that would have cost me something like $30, maybe $40K. The only really bad thing to come out so far is that the house has to go on the market ASAP, which is going to pull me -- at best -- about $5K because STBX did some tricky-tricks while we were married and switched the note over to interest-only. So this asset is worthless.
But what are you going to do, eh?
Maybe she's just capitulating. Maybe the war of attrition has taken its toll. Maybe she made so many kazillion dubloons from Big Developer that she doesn't care. But I think I have to be careful for the next month -- if it sounds too good to be true, you know, it usually is.
So that's the empirical bit.
Emotionally? Honestly, I don't know. I didn't feel nervous, per se (though that might be because I was inhaling Xanax like they were Gummi Bears --
Oh I am Gummi dope, yes I am Gummi dope, oh I am Gummi Gummi Gummi Gummi Gummi Dope, o-wo-o).
And I didn't feel sad, per se, though I haven't found the energy to do anything more substantive than wash the cars since.
I just felt like this whole thing is such a waste, and there's such a long road to go. She still can't bring herself to apologize for anything. The closest she's come is to "take responsibility" for having expected me to mind-read and for not telling me I was a lousy husband. Beyond that, every time she's called out on some misdeed, she just refuses to engage it. As if she can pretend it away. And there's been no change on the mind-reading front -- I'm still expected to do it. And no change on the attitude front -- she's still deeply in Blame Mode.
Walkaways. They need -- literally need -- to redirect and rewrite to rationalize. I can understand that, but now? At this point? I don't see there's any need, but then I'm a normal person.
Kids are loading up in the ride to go on the Road Trip, and before she gets in the driver's seat she sort of leans over the hood of the car and says, "I will never understand how you were able to just stop liking me."
It -- Still Not Gotten. And maybe it never will be.
Whatever. I feel very alone right now, empty house, kids gone, future uncertain. Plus I could really do with some good old-fashioned, no-strings-attached, sweaty sex. But that's another topic, too.
Think I'll have a beer.
Hey Smile Guy..
Thanks for the Gummi Bear link. It's a great song to hear in the background of my mind.
At some point, it's no longer about the divorcing spouse.. it's about you. Where your energy goes. What brings you joy, growth, fulfillment. It's a beautiful world when life stops being about the emotional trauma and upset the divorcing and/or divorced spouse brings.
As far as the "It" goes.. I'm not looking for validation from the former spouse, not that it would happen. And on the off chance it did.. well.. it wouldn't matter. I've changed too much to want what was so flawed and never jointly resolved.
Good to hear the divorce is getting closer to being finalized. And great sign that you know what you need... and/or can substitute for.
*hugs*
Hi Gypsy:
Yeah, I bagged the whole "about her" thing on New Year's Eve.
Like you, I'm not looking for "validation" from the STBX.
What the "
It" that is not gotten (and that I find so frustrating/mystifying) is, is her continued, absolute lack of any emotional intelligence whatever -- she simply cannot seem to understand her impact on others, me or the kids. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that, from my point of view, she's not able to do that.
Proverbial bull in china shop.
You know how little kids don't really have a sense of spatial relations and either get too close or too far away and tend to knock things over ("it was an accident!")?
That's her in pyscho-emotional terms -- she doesn't understand (or perhaps more precisely, though I'm merely hypothesizing here, doesn't
want to understand) that the things she says "stick" -- she seems to expect that I'll forget them as soon as they're said ("when are you going to stop throwing that back in my face?").
So on Monday she'll tell me she's afraid I'm going to murder our children just to get back at her ("like the Blue Hills guy") and on Wednesday offer to go out of her way to give me a ride from the car repair shop and apparently see no contradiction whatsoever in those two behaviors. And then she seems -- literally -- not to understand why I might decline the offer ("I'm sorry to hear that you won't accept my offer").
And when I -- as I now very infrequently do -- call her out on this kind of thing (I wrote her that I couldn't comprehend why she would be "sorry to hear that" when she'd just called me a child-murderer 48 hours before), she doesn't respond at all. It's like I'm talking into a vacuum (which is why I hardly bother).
One reason why I muse on it a lot is because throughout the marriage one of her refrains was that she was so attuned to others and I was so obtuse, but if the past 18 months is reasonable evidence she had that exactly backwards -- it's as if MLC and A and D opened up the Pandora's Box of her inner sociopath (metaphorically speaking).
Plus, and this is really the point (and is also, I think, a source of our recurring debate, yours and mine), I'm trying to learn
as much as I can from this experience and take as much away from it
in a positive sense so that my next R (assuming there is one) is informed on a deep level by the lessons and experiences and analysis I've tried to do here and tried to take from others here. That's just the way I'm programmed, I guess -- I have to understand, even if I (know I) ultimately can't.
Anyway,
macht's nichts. The real thing is just to maintain an even strain until the next hearing, let The Mouthpiece do her job, and see what the upshot is.
I do have to start DB'ing again, though, with a beginner's mind, at least insofar as GAL goes. In the past 3 months all of my new, post-S running buddies have got new jobs elsewhere in the country, so once again I'm alone in the house, alone at the movies, alone at the coffee shop, and hitting tennis balls against a wall.
Along with my head
Hey SP..
As my brother, sister, counselor and those in the know reiterated.. I was beating a dead horse in trying to understand the former spouse's motivation, his manner of dealing with it, thinking that my delving through the morass of what the marriage became that I would find understanding and learning.
And over time, I'm embracing their direction.
The former spouse is a poster child for unhealthy emotional behaviors.
In turn, I am becoming emotionally healthy.
Each wacky interaction with him is one more reason why it's good not to be in a relationship with him.. for me.
When mind reading is required, that means healthy communication as a couple is strained or gone. And the fear of rejection, anger, sense of anxiety has risen where it's safer not to talk.
If a couple is willing to work on it, the accumulated refuse of a relationship can be dealt with. Both individuals find what is is right about being a couple and survive the strain of how folks change over time, especially with the challenges and joys of having children.
In the situation when a spouse 'spontaneously' decides to exit a marriage and the nuclear family there's a Leaver and a Sticker. The Leaver creates a wall between themselves and the Sticker to justify why it's imperative to start a new life.. and justify their actions.
And Sticker tries to understand, in the process beating the dead horse to glue.
In the end, the marriage was broken and wasn't fixed, for whatever reason. And what hurts most is the manner in which the Sticker is left to pick up the pieces of the puzzle the Leaver fit together for themselves in the first place.
Personally, it's a slow painful process, especially when I focus on the drama of 'him'. But it's really me picking a wound. And this booboo heals as I change my perspective on what defines me.
Based on having been married to the former spouse, I won't date a guy who kicks dogs, tells me if it doesn't work out he'll be sad but will walk away shutting the door behind him and tells other people how incredible I am while belittling me at home.
The real challenge for me is getting out of my shell, ceasing to isolate and develop a life that doesn't center solely around the needs of others. The two and a half years I've spent maintaining a stable, emotionally secure home for my kids where they know they are loved unconditionally has been good. And they are all flourishing.
Now it's time for me to create my own stable, emotionally secure life that I own. One that does not focus on blame or victimization on what didn't work in a chapter of my life that's over.
And that's what it means to me to have my life to no longer be about him, understanding his motives because he's not part of my life. And I'm okay.. and in a better place because of it.
With a future relationship (if there is one) the naiveté of love will solve everything is gone, replaced with an understanding and need to heed the good with the bad and being willing to deal with what doesn't work.
As far as the debate goes, as long as I don't read, "Gypsy you ignorant slut." I'm good. And even if I do, it's not a problem.
Go figure. I'm just looking forward to the day that no strings attached hot sweaty sex isn't so damn scary.
*hugs*
Plus, and this is really the point, I'm trying to learn as much as I can from this experience and take as much away from it in a positive sense so that my next R (assuming there is one) is informed on a deep level by the lessons and experiences and analysis I've tried to do here and tried to take from others here. That's just the way I'm programmed, I guess -- I have to understand, even if I (know I) ultimately can't.
resonates. a lot. sometimes I wish I didn't do this, didn't have to do this...but apparently I do. Mine, however, seems to be focused upon what I did wrong to end up here--no, not that it was all my fault, but how I contributed; if I have no control over anything but myself, then I
must nail that piece down. and the best I can ever seem to do is: I made a really, really lousy choice of mates. And I should have seen that and I chose not to. will I ever trust myself again? who knows--that's the big question.
Walkaways. They need -- literally need -- to redirect and rewrite to rationalize.
That's a truism for sure.
I don't think it's general enough to be a truism.
How about this: perception is a funny thing, and the darnedest things can change how we perceive everything in our lives.
...and one of the surest, darnedest things is an OP.
TH,
Walkaways. They need -- literally need -- to redirect and rewrite to rationalize.
I don't think it's general enough to be a truism.
While I like yours,"'perception is a funny thing, and the darnedest things can change how we perceive everything in our lives,"
Smiley's take is
specific enough - and
true enough - to be a truism.
The Walkaway Truism.
inho.
Peace,
Smiley's take is specific enough - and true enough - to be a truism. The Walkaway Truism.
Jack Past Positve says, "Boy, we sure had some good times, didn't we?".
Jill Past Negative says, "You forget there were some terrible, terrible times too".
Frank Present Hedonic says, "We should all go out and drink tequilla shots, guys!"
Pricillia Present Fatalist says, "We might as well go get wasted, drunk because it doesn't really matter anyway".
Jane Future Positive says, "I might share one shot with you guys, but I have a list of things to do tomorrow, and I can't afford a nasty hangover, but I'll go along for a bit. Promise me you guys call a cab to take you home if you drink too much.
It's all about perspective, ain't it?
Sorry, I don't buy the "it's all about perspective" thing in the slightest -- talk about relativism. Perspectives are like a**holes -- everybody's got one. That doesn't mean they're all valid, nor does it mean they all have to be given their "due."
So it might be "true," but from my point-of-view it's also completely irrelevant (just as from someone else's point-of-view my perspective might well be irrelevant). But I live in accordance with my own lights -- I respect others'
right to opinions or perspectives, but there's nothing in that contract that says I have to honor or respect those opinions or perspectives.
Indeed, if it were anything
other than irrelevant, we'd all be wasting our time other places on the Internets Tubes, because every Left-Behind in the world would simply have to say,
"Well golly gee-whillikers, I sure hate losing my marriage, but what the hell, it's her/his perspective -- just as valid as mine. Here I thought I was being a good husband/wife, fulfilling my responsibilities, taking care of the home/finances/children, and here s/he was thinking I'm a useless unattractive worthless piece of sh*t. What are you going to do? It's all a matter of perspective -- for all I know, maybe I am a useless unattractive worthless piece of sh*t, don't want to rush to any conclusions. My perspective was 'until death do us part,' his/her perspective was 'until it's no longer convenient.' That's a perfectly valid perspective -- gosh, I'd better respect it." Here's an excerpt from interesting
perspective, posted at
The Daily Beast (full story) by Beverly Willet ("My Fight To Stop My Divorce"):
After a lengthy trial, the judge dismissed all of my husband’s charges. But he was still determined. He moved across the Hudson River to New Jersey to establish residency. Within a year’s time of living there, he would be allowed to sue me again under that state’s no-fault law. Without the funds to keep fighting what was now the inevitable, I gave in. A year later, we had a second trial on financials, and our property was divided. When our divorce became final, my husband and I had been married for over a quarter of a century.
Last Sunday, I read that Governor Paterson had signed a bill making New York the fiftieth and final state in the country to enact no-fault divorce. I was heartsick. We would never stand for arranged marriages, so why do we tolerate unilateral divorce, where the power rests in one person's hands to vote on behalf of the whole family? [emphasis added]
If no-fault is good, why do we have the highest divorce rate of any Western nation? Why is the divorce rate for second marriages even higher? Studies show most “unhappy” marriages ride out the storm. No-fault removes that option.
There are practical reasons against no-fault, too. Divorce reduces life-span. No-fault won’t end litigation either, just shape-shift it as the litigation instead focuses on economics. And women and children are worse off financially after divorce, as they always have been, even those finally able to extricate themselves from domestic abuse.
...
No-fault assumes that removing choice from the equation will lead to less acrimony, but that’s too simplistic. It assumes the only reason parties would ever hold up a divorce is to angle for money. It tosses aside the notion that one might want to stay married because of one’s pledge, or for the sake of the children. [emphasis added]
Since 1970, approximately one million children a year have watched their parents divorce and their way of family life disappear. Children of divorce are more likely to divorce themselves, and divorce produces other negative consequences as well – more juvenile delinquency, aggression, teen pregnancy, depression, learning difficulties – not the least of which is the loss of childhood and parents and children losing precious time together. “The best interests of the child” governs in child custody, yet no-fault divorce does not serve that end.
The fact of the matter is that when couples have children you all become inextricably intertwined. I always pictured my husband and I turning to each other as we applauded our daughters in their school plays, and sitting in the car, tearful, after dropping our eldest off at college. It’s nearly eight years since my husband left, and I still have trouble opening the family photo albums. But I’ve had to move on. There are more pressing problems like finding a job and health insurance when my costly COBRA runs out in about a year.
wow. so very true--so very sad.
"Well golly gee-whillikers, I sure hate losing my marriage, but what the hell, it's her/his perspective -- just as valid as mine. Here I thought I was being a good husband/wife, fulfilling my responsibilities, taking care of the home/finances/children, and here s/he was thinking I'm a useless unattractive worthless piece of sh*t. What are you going to do?
Nope.
You'd realize that you can't change their perspective, and it's their perspective and changes in their perspective that lead them to leave the marriage.
You can't change what you can't change. The only person's perspective you can change is your own, and by focusing on the past, the hurt, and the restentment, you are robbing yourself of enjoying your life right now and in the future.
Your time is going to be spent whether or not you use it wisely.
Your past, if you choose to view it this way, can be a learning/growing experience, an experience that confirms your resilience.
Hi SP,
Just throwing some "drive by" support so you know I'm still here and still pulling for you.
Keep up what you're doing.
- Thinker
But you see, @TimeHeals, you are talking about something else entirely. You are talking about wishing perspective was changeable.
I'm not talking about changing STBX's perspective. I don't think she is changing her perspective, at least not in the evolutionary or developmental sense that you're using the concept.
I think she's changing the story to fit what she wants to believe at any given moment, mostly to facilitate obfuscation and torment.
I mean, sure, a person's perspective can change. For example, a person could go from faith to agnosticism to atheism, have a moment on the Road to Damascus, and go back to faith.
Those are changes in perspective.
What we have here, on the other hand, is a person who is essentially -- just to keep the metaphor going -- cycling between every favor of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, atheism, New Age and Don Juan's Yaqui Way of Knowledge at the drop of hat. Quote Scripture, and she says, "Oy, don't you remember I'm Jewish?" Quote a shtetl story, and she says, "Bismallah! There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his messenger."
She's like a human King Crimson album -- it's a total mystery what you're going to hear on the next track.
I'm talking about being wide-eyed-in-wonder-dumbstruck that anyone could have so tenuous a connection to something one could remotely even call a perspective.
I'm talking about how it is a never-ending source of amazement to me that this is what she has by way of "perspective," this ever-changing, shape-shifting, amorphous, history-rewriting story.
And I'm gobsmacked that she doesn't get why I would find it difficult to keep up with them all. Helllooooo, Sybil much?
I mean, when she tells me, by way of an example of her Total Womanly Greatness, an anecdote from our apparently disastrous-from-the-altar marriage that illustrates just how she toughed it out until she couldn't tough it out no more; and when I point out that, um, you sort of have it backwards, that was actually me who did that; and then she stares blankly and says, "Well, that's just a detail" and proclaims she doesn't understand what is my problem anyway I'm missing the point -- that, my man, is some King-Hell Not-Getting-It Walkaway stuff right there.
Hi SP,
Wondering why your stbx (like mine) is dragging out the D process forever?
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/08/...uasive-blamers/Unfortunately, this too is part of the script.
@Thinker:
HO-LEE-F***ING-SH*T.
Dragon Eight, out.
Yeah, it kind of explained to me why my stbxw is incapable of discussing and agreeing to ANYTHING - even things like the kids schedule for the following week.
Hey Thinker..
I had an odd thought while reading your link.
Articles written discussing blame can read like newspaper horoscopes or fortune cookies. There's something for everyone... based on their perspective.. regardless...
@Gypsy, you certainly make a valid point.
At the risk of Overt Pointyheadedness, if I were going to do a meta-analysis of the DB community posts, I'd suggest that among the cut-points in the DB'er Typology is one that is at work on this thread recently.
On the one hand you have those like @Thinker and SP Himself who have, at the end of the day, an inherently
positivist epistemology -- we look for
causality.
I mean, what's the basic mantra in the DB community -- figure out what you did 'wrong' to contribute to this outcome: "
I think I wasn't supportive, but of course that's just my perspective, so it doesn't really matter."
So there's an inherent bias towards positivism -- otherwise there'd be no point in doing that. True, true, correlation is not causation, but the more "tests" we have of these ad-hoc hypotheses, the more comfortable we are with the findings.
On the other hand (and here I'm not trying to essentialize you or construct you) there are those who tend to have a more
holist or even
postmodern epistemology, where reflexivity carries the day.
But from the positivist POV, there is a remarkably strong degree of symmetry in many of the situations here; the fact that people can refer to "script" and write things like "that sounds familiar" suggests there is a set of patterns, and patterns lend themselves to evaluation and testing. Maybe the material Thinker sent is horoscope-like in its generality; on the other hand, there's at least some probability that the phenomena it discusses explain some amount of the variance.
Neither Thinker nor I will ever know the true causation, of course, but that doesn't mean it's not worth examining.
all of this is exactly why I think the NIH ought to sink some bucks into a comprehensive study that will examine the walkaway syndrome...with the ultimate denouement of having its own listing in the DSM-IV.
I'm dead serious here.
sadly, Type I diabetes research doesn't have much of a crossover or I would have pushed that envelope a smidge.
Coud it be the "scripts" are so similar because there are only so many ways one can break this kind of news to another?
The script seems to be worded in such a way that relfects the following: guilt, confusion, wanting to let someone down easy, justification, etc, but the bottom line to what they're saying is, as my wife so bluntly put it: "I don't want to be married to you anymore".
Hey Smile Guy..
We are all where we're supposed to be. Learning what is needed. In however it's needed. No judgment. Just odd bits of sharing, support, perspective and challenges.
I've wondered what wisdom.. or what to share with the kids about what is the most important aspect of a marriage.. a long term relationship. Because after all, it's not the affair, etc., or the "I love you but am not in love with you" which ends a marriage.
It's the crap that was never dealt with. It starts when fear or anxiety kicks in, when it's easier cower in silence, lie by omission.. to stop trying. Not realizing how it creates its own Pandora's box.
When my spouse of 25 years dropped the bomb, I was floored. "I just can't live like this anymore." was his beginning. As he continued the cold mass over my heart feathered outward. When he was done, I knew and said that I wanted the family, the marriage, him. And...
And.. I thanked him for getting it out. That as bad as it seemed, now that 'it' was out on the table, it could be dealt with.
Ya see.. that's where I was wrong. Because by then he was done.
So.. for me it's being willing able to deal directly with things.. to pay attention to those red flags, to live a life of integrity, do my best.
Because I was married to a great guy. And I was pretty incredible too. But not being able deal with problems head on.. work things out together lead to a break that wouldn't be fixed. And no matter how much worse things could have gotten (why didn't I realize how disconnected 'we' were??), I never would have left the marriage. Never would have broken the family. In retrospect it was living life in a straitjacket.
My heart goes out to you for what you're dealing and struggling with. And it is heartbreaking, incomprehensible and just damn perplexing that someone you vowed to spend your days with unilaterally changes their mind and inexorably impacts you and those you love most.
To be honest.. I didn't really understand your post, but that doesn't matter. For me.. and only for me.. learning to speak from the core, from what I've learned, good, bad and/or in spite of my obstinacy is what works for me.
Coud it be the "scripts" are so similar because there are only so many ways one can break this kind of news to another?
The script seems to be worded in such a way that relfects the following: guilt, confusion, wanting to let someone down easy, justification, etc, but the bottom line to what they're saying is, as my wife so bluntly put it: "I don't want to be married to you anymore".
I don't think so, TT, because the "script" is followed -- with only a VERY few variations -- at every step along the way, not just at the "bomb." I have my own theories on this, mostly spiritual in nature, that would be better discussed on another thread, but I think Hoozh's suggestion is a fascinating one: the gubmint oughta do a study!! God knows it could help more people than the myriad of "Dating Habits of Two-Horned Frogs" and such that we fund now!
Puppy
I mean, what's the basic mantra in the DB community -- figure out what you did 'wrong' to contribute to this outcome: "I think I wasn't supportive, but of course that's just my perspective, so it doesn't really matter."
This is a fascinating observation, and many (Gucci, for one) have posted about it: the natural tendency in DBing to start with the assumption that the betrayed/left-behind spouse is somehow deficient, has done something "wrong," and therefore needs to be "fixed" in order to attract back the wayward/walkaway spouse.
And this is certainly true in many, many instances.
But not all. I believe it was Dr. Harley who found in his research (and practice) on infidelity, that about 20-25% of the affairs happened in perfectly healthy marriages. And Gucci (and others) has posted about "Sometimes, you really DIDN'T do anything wrong -- sometimes it really IS just THEM." (I'm paraphrasing).
Really, if you follow the MLC forum at all, which I do at times, they work from the perspective of it's ALL about them -- it's their "journey."
Too many DBers, in my opinion, try to work with this "fix-it list," articulated to them from a fogged-out wayward/walkaway spouse, many times chemically-fueled, and find themselves in a hopeless, cheeseless tunnel of "self-improvement."
But I digress.
Puppy
Coud it be the "scripts" are so similar because there are only so many ways one can break this kind of news to another?
The script seems to be worded in such a way that relfects the following: guilt, confusion, wanting to let someone down easy, justification, etc, but the bottom line to what they're saying is, as my wife so bluntly put it: "I don't want to be married to you anymore".
I don't think so, TT, because the "script" is followed -- with only a VERY few variations -- at every step along the way, not just at the "bomb." I have my own theories on this, mostly spiritual in nature, that would be better discussed on another thread, but I think Hoozh's suggestion is a fascinating one: the gubmint oughta do a study!! God knows it could help more people than the myriad of "Dating Habits of Two-Horned Frogs" and such that we fund now!
Puppy
oooh--lemme just clarify here. we don't want the gubmint "doing" the study--just paying for it!! lol!
but pup's point is a good one--the "script" is not just a one-scene performance, but often a multiple-act play, often with a scripted prologue. and it keeps going on...my own Niebelungen epic has stayed true to script lo these two-and-a-half years, and with very few exceptions, each dialogue is absolutely predictable. and probably several other old-timers have experienced the same. I'm actually not so much in favor of a study as its (hoped) result--acknowledgment that "serial monogamy" is not a self-actualizing phenomenon, but rather a very destructive influence on the stability of society (e.g. rates of children subsequently raised in near-poverty). and it needs not "acceptance" and brief, temporary hand-patting for the left-behind family, but rather some form of "treatment." of course it will be argued that the treatment would be involuntary and therefore unethical...but so is treatment of pedophiles, paranoid schizophrenics, and others whose behavior causes permanent damage to its victims. extreme view? of course. but sometimes that's what it takes to get that pendulum to swing back towards the middle.
of course it will be argued that the treatment would be involuntary and therefore unethical...but so is treatment of pedophiles, paranoid schizophrenics, and others whose behavior causes permanent damage to its victims. extreme view? of course. but sometimes that's what it takes to get that pendulum to swing back towards the middle.
Yeah, and they'd
have to listen to someone who knows how to uses "Niebelungen" in context, too!
Puppy
Hi, Brow! Whoo-hoo, you can practically smell the wood burning.
So let's be fair and positivist and suggest that if there is in fact a rather predictable script -- a Divorce Ring Cycle, if you will (does that make me Siegfried to STBX's Brünnhilde?) -- this might compel us to recognize that perhaps there aren't so many variations of human relations.
Way back when, at the start of SP's own cycle, I met a diplomat from Very Catholic Central European country at a cocktail party. Before he joined his country's foreign service, he was a divorce attorney and wouldn't you know it -- Walkaways in Very Catholic Central European Country have the Exact Same Script as Walkaways in These Yere You-knighted States of Amurca.
So if
(YouTube) People are People, then there are, by definition, patterns. And patterns are, by definition, explicable.
So it doesn't have to "just be their perspective" -- there could be / must be / might be some recurring social / emotional / psychological phenomena at work.
And that implies there
could be such a study.
Whether or not that would change things is, of course, purely speculative. For mine own sake, I doubt it would -- the defining characteristic of
Homo Ingredior Absentis is Rationalization.
I mean, what's the basic mantra in the DB community -- figure out what you did 'wrong' to contribute to this outcome: "I think I wasn't supportive, but of course that's just my perspective, so it doesn't really matter."
This is a fascinating observation, and many (Gucci, for one) have posted about it: the natural tendency in DBing to start with the assumption that the betrayed/left-behind spouse is somehow deficient, has done something "wrong," and therefore needs to be "fixed" in order to attract back the wayward/walkaway spouse.
In
The Journey From Abandonment To Healing, author Susan Anderson lists the third of the Five Stages Of Abandonment as "
Internalizing the Rejection," which includes
Idealizing the Abandoner
Impotent Rage (victim)
Isolation and Shame
Indictment (of self)
"Why do we indict ourselves? As painful and potentially destructive as these thoughts are, they serve a temporary purpose. They provide a sense of control over what has happened. By holding ourselves culpable, we feel we have the power to change the things that brought the relationship to an end. All we have to do, we reason, is correct our faults and we can get our lost partners back...
But accepting all of the responsibility of the failure of your relationship leads to further self-injury. As you look inside for deficiencies to correct, you come to believe that there is something inherently unacceptable about you."all of this is exactly why I think the NIH ought to sink some bucks into a comprehensive study that will examine the walkaway syndrome...with the ultimate denouement of having its own listing in the DSM-IV.
The author agrees with you, hm. Abandonment has enough similarities to - yet is in many ways different from - Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (and Bereavement, for that matter) that she believes they should be a sub-types of this diagnostic category.
And as an aside, I think it's interesting - and telling - that the second sentence of the book contains the common DB term,
"...
it happened out of the blue."
Also, the first chapter contains a short, concise,
dead-on definition of WHAT IS AN ABANDONER?
Peace,
Whether or not that would change things is, of course, purely speculative. For mine own sake, I doubt it would -- the defining characteristic of Homo Ingredior Absentis is Rationalization.
Dear Siegried--Indeed. But while it might not change things personally, might it change things societal-ly? Reboot the anthropology of our age from the I-generation(s) to What's Best for the Children?? At the very least make it just a bit more appropriately politically unacceptable to jettison whole families, often condemning them to some kind of poverty of spirit as well as of material needs? Call into question the ethics of even those institutions we'd expect to champion values, but who instead get sucked into "self-actualization as the highest form of virtue" belief? Make it just a little bit less socially acceptable to blame the victims, We-Who-Are-Left-Behind?
Love, Brunnhilde
ah, no wonder that book resonated so profoundly; Susan Anderson and I are kindred spirits. I recognized my own PTSD and the need for a DSM-IV update even before reading that very dead-on book. Learned many other things therein, as well as having my perceptions validated. And even if they are just my perceptions, does anything else really matter at this point??
hm,
...Reboot the anthropology of our age from the I-generation(s) to What's Best for the Children?? At the very least make it just a bit more appropriately politically unacceptable to jettison whole families, often condemning them to some kind of poverty of spirit as well as of material needs? Call into question the ethics of even those institutions we'd expect to champion values, but who instead get sucked into "self-actualization as the highest form of virtue" belief?...
Sounds like an excellent summary of why (I believe) No-Fault Divorce Laws should be repealed (unilateral, self-actualizing decisions by one person carrying the day and destroying so much for so many while the self-actualizing destroyer gets a "free pass").
hm,
...And even if they are just my perceptions, does anything else really matter at this point??
Not a blessed thing: your perceptions=your reality.
Peace,
hm,
...Reboot the anthropology of our age from the I-generation(s) to What's Best for the Children?? At the very least make it just a bit more appropriately politically unacceptable to jettison whole families, often condemning them to some kind of poverty of spirit as well as of material needs? Call into question the ethics of even those institutions we'd expect to champion values, but who instead get sucked into "self-actualization as the highest form of virtue" belief?...
Sounds like an excellent summary of why (I believe) No-Fault Divorce Laws should be repealed (unilateral, self-actualizing decisions by one person carrying the day and destroying so much for so many while the self-actualizing destroyer gets a "free pass").
Can I get an "AMEN"???
LOL. gotta love nuns!!!
pup,
hm,
...Reboot the anthropology of our age from the I-generation(s) to What's Best for the Children?? At the very least make it just a bit more appropriately politically unacceptable to jettison whole families, often condemning them to some kind of poverty of spirit as well as of material needs? Call into question the ethics of even those institutions we'd expect to champion values, but who instead get sucked into "self-actualization as the highest form of virtue" belief?...
Sounds like an excellent summary of why (I believe) No-Fault Divorce Laws should be repealed (unilateral, self-actualizing decisions by one person carrying the day and destroying so much for so many while the self-actualizing destroyer gets a "free pass").
What?...No
s?
They're backordered. Greek's been on a roll lately, what can I say . . .
Amen! Total BS is what no fault is.
STBX went to Burning Man <rolls eyes>. In and of itself, this would only occasion enough attention to give me an excuse to vent a little scorn.
Today, however, I was regaled with descriptions of the many funny photos and videos STBX apparently showed Themselves last night. Gosh Mommy had a lot of fun.
And had it, to judge by their otherwise unknowing descriptions with both her current paramour and Signore Schmuckatelli Itself.
I'm sorry, but that just hurts.
And, if Themselves are to be believed, the current Schmuckatelli is a millionaire venture capitalist.
For a man, this is the equivalent of being replaced by a 20-something trophy girl.
Funny. I didn't think I could feel worse about myself.
Oh well. It ain't boring, this D business, that's for sure.
Oh, SP, that sucks...I was replaced by a girl eight years younger, 25 pounds lighter, with big, natural boobs.
And yes, it is a kick in the head...
Sorry!!! Although he or ms. smiley may just be floating that idea to try to garner some admiration... you never know...
*hugs*
*hugs*
*hugs*
It sucks.
Ya know, the former Mr. Gypsy scooted out to be with a woman 17 years younger, made her the top priority, drained all our savings for a standard divorce, penciled the kids into his schedule for an hour every few months, married her and is expecting a baby who will be born shortly before his 57th birthday.
It just sounds crazy... like... really?
But this perception took time.. lots of time. With the finalization of the divorce in sight life became surreal. Only AFTER divorce could the healing even start to begin. At least for me.
The woman who was your wife left long ago. A long long time ago. And so what if the guy is loaded? He still has to poop on a toilet and will most likely be replaced in due time.
Divorce begins in the mind. And as I was always reassured, I got the good stuff.. a healthy secure relationship with my kids (well.. two out of three!)
And you, Mr. Positivist of Men, are the dad, who shows his love for his children in countless ways. It's about you... not her... or at least that will come in time.
*hugs*
Thanks, Gypsy; thanks BobbiJo.
Masochistically, once the kids filled in the blanks on his name, I naturally had to consult
The Great Gazoogle -- yep, that's about right. CEO here, CFO there, senior venture capitalist over there, about a zillion boards of directors, good public works (national trusts for this and that).
And he's over 6-foot tall. (STBX always said she wanted a tall man, unlike SP himself, so she would feel daintier by comparison.)
The bastard of it is that I have every reason to believe he's a perfectly splendid fellow.
But I'm so mental right now that I'm trying to concoct any possible way of becoming a millionaire venture capitalist myself, just to show her. Hah!
(Of course, not being able to count beyond the number of digits on my hands and feet will surely be a complicating factor in that plan....)
She
was always into money, was STBX, and my presumptive lack of "ambition" -- which was really a back-handed way of criticizing my career choice -- was among the leading causes (blames) for the D.
Oh -- he's published a book, too. So it's not what I do, per se, that was so terrible -- it's having done it without being independently wealthy that was among the great character flaws.
I'm really, really afraid that as they age, Themselves are going to compare my relative (lack of) wealth endowment, and the way they live with me, to STBX and whomever she happens to be with at the time -- and I will always come up short.
So this is like the gift that will just keep on giving (a la Gypsy's former spouse and his rather distasteful breeding choice of late).
I had a long talk with Miss Someone about this. Was STBX always that superficial? Did she really love me so...
thinly? And did I love her so much that I just overlooked it? Or is this some artifact of MLC and etc.?
Miss Someone once blurted out, "God, she was totally the wrong woman for you!" At the time, I thought it was just a sympathy vote -- but what if that's right? Did I squander what little I have to offer on someone who, in a sense, really didn't deserve it? Criminy,
that's a depressing proposition.
I know, I know, it doesn't matter, all perception, script, yada-yada, etc., etc.
But come on -- tell me you haven't thought the same things from time-to-time, unproductive though it may be.
On the other hand, he has far less hair than SP Himself. So I got that going for me. Which is nice.
I'm really, really afraid that as they age, Themselves are going to compare my relative (lack of) wealth endowment, and the way they live with me, to STBX and whomever she happens to be with at the time -- and I will always come up short.
I've had a similar fear; probably, many of us have. xH's current soulmate grew up wealthy, remains wealthy; gets along swimmingly with xH's millionaire brothers and their families. They just returned last evening from a 2-week jaunt along the East Coast, visiting the soulmates friends and family (and I anticipate likely got engaged while out there). What do I have to offer D14, I've wondered--not even working right now, can't afford to call a plumber so D14 has enough hot water to shower here at home, 2 years' worth of financial crisis....but where would she rather be? yes--here with me. she feels like "a black sheep" when she's with her wealthy cousins, enjoys the stories of world travel from soulmate and her family but doesn't feel connected to them. She is well aware that xH treats her like a toy to be enjoyed until he's had enough, then sending her back to me; life would be complete if he just didn't have to communicate with me at all or provide that whopping 5% of his income in child support; he's happy, I struggle constantly. but this is her home, this is where she's a priority, and she knows that.
so will Themselves.
Themselves are going to compare my relative (lack of) wealth endowment, and the way they live with me, to STBX and whomever she happens to be with at the time -- and I will always come up short.
You don't really believe that do you? Who do Themselves do things with? Think of all the ways you connect and create memories with them. Money is just a tool doesn't make you happy. The only person you are competing with is yourself. Don't swallow that Kool-Aid.
Cheers
Hi SP,
Ouch! I know the feeling. I live in a town full of big deal stock brokers with fancy cars and houses and vacations. I make good money, but they make that x10. This is without question the directly the stbx Mrs. T's eyes have wandered.
...and it hurts
...and it takes a direct shot at your self worth, but...
Think in a different paradigm:
- Her unhappiness in the marriage was not about you. It was about her. She is unhappy. Nothing you did, or could have done, could change that.
- To avoid looking at her own internal reasons for her unhappiness, she split you black and demonized you. It wasn't because of how tall you are or how many books you did or didn't write or because of how much you did or didn't earn. It's because she blames her internal unhappiness on the person closest to her and then looks for reasons to justify it.
- She's not going to change. She'll still be an unhappy person. She's still going to blame the person she's with for her own internal issues.
- He may well be a "Splendid Fellow", but you can replace that with "Poor Sucker!". Sooner or later, she will demonize him just like she's demonized you.
- When she does split him black, he'll get the same treatment you have. The same blame. The same irrational rages. The same denigration and belittlement. The same affairs.
Let go, stop blaming yourself. I've been on this forum with you now for close to 2 years, and have far more respect for you as a person than any google-title rich bigshot.
Take care of yourself and Themselves.
-Thinker
F*^K - you guys just about did my head in. I have been away from the boards for a couple of months and it has taken me an hour to wade through all that perspective, suggestive, forget it stuff.
I had an affair. I also had a husband that loved me to the core and whom i equally adored. Figure that out !
SP bring this marriage to an end. They say you don't have a good settlement until both parties feel ripped off. VERY TRUE. My settlement involved companies and buildings. After $100 000 in legal bills I threw my hands up, signed the papers, banked the cheque and took the kids to Thailand ( where you see that life can be lived in a tin shed with no running water and 1 satelite dish ) ( I also discovered that true love can come in the shape of disgusting old men and 12 year old beautiful Thai girls )
Who cares if STBX has new man. He will not replace you. You analyze and worry over crap. You don't know him.
In my country I remain married until someone pays the $100 and picks up the papers. As that has not happened with us we still are technically married. So when I am filling out forms , it depends on my mood as to whether i am MRS, Ms , Miss or just plain happy. What I am not, is emotionally tied to him anymore and that happened as soon as we settled. Load off shoulders etc etc.
Simplify simplify. Your intelligent people. Revisit your financial wants. How important is it all ! Have you examined all options available to you. Surely your talents are needed in whatever city you live in.
Sorry for ramble but I was buying time to regain my will to live !
SP bring this marriage to an end.
If only. But it's not up to me. Had a court date scheduled on Monday -- some lawyer thing materialized, and it had to be rescheduled. Another month. All I can do is wait -- and STBX doesn't seem to be in any particular hurry. Which isn't surprising, since her strategy is to out-spend me.
The worst part is that STBX continues to need -- maybe even crave -- my attention in some pathological way. I let the kids rummage through the old pictures the other day to pick out the ones they liked; next day I have an e-mail from the new Mouthpiece -- STBX called her lawyer at 5 a.m., whining that I was "obviously" trashing the place and throwing all of the community property away. So what's up with that? asks the Mouthpiece. And of course I have to call and explain, and she has to write and explain, and that little bit of business sets me back nearly $400.
She won't stop e-mailing or texting. What's my problem? Why don't I want to associate with her? She's so happy now and has a new love in her life, and why don't I just get on board with the program? Yeeeeeahhhh, okay then, 'buh-bye.
So I really don't need that kind of thing coming to my personal phone, and I get a pay-go phone dedicated to the purpose of making and receiving any and all emergency messages involving the kids. She runs whining to the lawyer again: He'll never let me talk to my children ever again now! And there goes another $400. Then, as if to make the point, she refuses to use it even after her lawyer tells her to stop making so much trouble for everyone.
But to demonstrate her commitment to being a pain in the a**, she multi-texts my personal number until finally there's no alternative but to b*tch-slap her telephonically. Mercifully, she's been silent since, but only after I pointed out to her -- quoting her most recent e-mail (which she hates to have me do) -- that because she so "truly and deeply hates" me, it would probably be best for the kids that she minimize her exposure to the object of her true and deep hatred. So please use the emergency number when and if there's an emergency, and if we're both lucky there'll never be an emergency, and the phone will never be used, and I'll never have to hear a word from her again, and that'll be Just O-kizay with me.
What is so hard about this for her to understand? She asked me once -- though I never answered -- did I ever foresee a time when the two of us would just get along like chums?
Welllllllll. "Ever" is a pretty long time.
But if I had to guess, I'd guess, "no."
I mean -- honestly! Why would I want that? You fantasized about, planned, and carried out an affair. Then you lied, lied, and lied some more. Then you declared you were writing me out of your life.
Okay. Fine. But for f*ck's sake, live with the consequences of your decisions -- don't expect me to ameliorate them and somehow exonerate you from whatever passes for any kind of self-reflection in your twisted world by "still being friends."
Because friends don't do that sh*t to each other.
I tell you, I don't get it. How is it my responsibility to fix the outcome of what she did to her satisfaction?
And why won't she just close the friggin' deal? Wouldn't you want to? New life, new love, yada yada yada -- surely I can't be so fantabulous that it's worth all this effort just to keep me connected.
You said you were done -- be done!
(Which is a whole other thang -- why, having had 100% of someone in your life, would anyone be willing to settle for whatever tangential little scrap-heap role s/he was willing to assign you after a D? I mean, what's that supposed to be -- some kind of consolation prize? Well, you can't be married to me or love me or have me love you anymore, but at least you can be available for me to pester whenever I've got nothing else to do.... Yeah, yeah, yeah, "good for the kids." Ain't buying it. Me looking like a milquetoast isn't good for the kids.)
She cheated and lied, and destroyed a family. That's the fact Jack! She wants you to make her feel better about what she's done! How out of touch with reality can a person be?
Hey SP,
>>>"Had a court date scheduled on Monday -- some lawyer thing materialized, and it had to be rescheduled. Another month. All I can do is wait -- and STBX doesn't seem to be in any particular hurry. Which isn't surprising, since her strategy is to out-spend me."
Just catching up & sooo identifying!
You're doing an excellent job of side-stepping (1.To put or press the foot down.)
No "milquetoast" for you!!
Will see if I can catch you sometime today for a de-briefing.
Sunny
For me it's more than that, @antlers. Though it's a weird word choice, it strikes me as being
disrespectful.
I'm not going to take issue with her decision-making during the A and with respect to initiating the D. Okay, fine -- what's more basic a DB mantra than "accept you're not in control"? So she cheated and lied and decided life with me was so intolerable that she had to destroy the family in order to save herself. Whatever. I have no influence over that.
But -- and I know I sound like a broken record here -- what
really stymies me is how
sincerely she seems to ask these "why can't we be friends" questions. Honestly, I don't think she's doing it to be provocative. I think she means it (or at least thinks she does).
But that is
so utterly disrespectful, so lacking in any sense that she recognizes there's an actual
human being on the other side, as opposed to some Hollow Man she's created in her mind to rationalize what she's done.
It's not that I don't "get" the idea in an abstract sense that it would be nice to be pally-wally afterwards, not to have to give up all connection after 20+ years. But come on -- give me a break! That's what it is, divorcing. It's a Giving-Up of connection -- it doesn't happen by accident.
But this settling-for-less thing; this idea that I would -- no,
should -- be "okay" with tangentially interacting with her, that I should be glad she's willing to carve out
this much space in her life for me, that I'm somehow worth that much but no more...it's almost as if she believes that it would be some kind of...I don't know...
gift.
What would we talk about? The weather? The Cubs? The kids? It was "only" talking about the kids that was one of the problems in the first place. And there's really not much else to talk about -- not to hear STBX's story. After all, "we never had anything in common." That's script, sure, but we certainly don't have anything in common
now -- even I can see that.
Why would I want to hear anything about her life without me? Why would she want to hear about mine? "Congratulations on all the great things that are happening to you."
Couldn't I just have my lawyer write up a blanket congratulations and file it with the court at the time of the D and be done with it?
Your honor, if it please the Court, my client would like to enter into the record a Declaration of Congratulations and Hearty Good-Fellowship to XW for all the things she may accomplish, achieve, acquire, attain, complete, earn, experience, facilitate, finish, gain, get, manage, negotiate, obtain, perfect, perform, procure, produce, reach, realize, settle, solve, undertake and/or otherwise win between today and the moment my client shuffles off this mortal coil; all rights reserved, res ipsa loquitor, keep out of reach of children, quod et demonstrandum, your results may vary, e pluribus unum, shake well before opening, from sea to shining sea, aaaaaay-men.From my point-of-view, if I told someone I was "done" with her; that everything she did to try to revitalize the R was "too little, too late;" that I no longer found her attractive or desirable -- indeed, that the very idea of physical contact with her "made me sick" -- because of who she'd become; that I didn't have any respect for her or consider her to be a complete woman -- well, I mean, I wouldn't then expect her to rush for the opportunity of staying engaged in my life in whatever trivial way I decided I wanted.
And in that scenario, why would
I want that, anyway?
And riddle me this:
What if I (or you or you or you) bought off on this idea and swallowed my pride and took the emotional hit and became the Model Post-D-Relationship Guy -- and she decided she didn't like it after all? Didn't need it after all?
Cue Emily Litella, right? 
Aagh. Sorry for all this whining. My posts are supposed to be entertaining, and here I am just venting my spleen.
It's this constant delay, this long drawn-out seemingly endless process. What I wouldn't give for a day back in the war; like Forrest said, the good thing about Vietnam is there was always someplace to go, and
there was always something to do (YouTube @1:47).
It's really wearing me down. I'm so tired of having to be "separated." I'm so tired of waiting for it to end.
You'd think she would be, too. She filed 18 months ago. She moved out 16 months ago. Yet she won't make a single settlement offer -- all she'll do is demand them from me and reject them outright.
Why doesn't she want to get divorced???I'm dying inside, my friends; I can't breathe. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I'm losing my spirit.
I'm losing myself. I fear I've gone up-river only to discover that Mistah Smiley's Person -- he dead.
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
I can relate to everything you are saying. I am also living the same. It is terribly, terribly difficult.
I am close to 36 months in and not even close to a divorce. Yes, I am legally separated but it's not *divorced*. I also have "one of those" who has done whatever he can to delay a dissolution despite *he* being the one who demanded the dissolution.
*He* e-mailed me this week letting me know the following:
There is a huge aspect of his life missing and that aspect is me. The idea of me and all the time we shared (13 years but who is counting) runs like a movie through his head. *He* said he made a huge mistake leaving the marriage the way he did and he should have NOT done that and he regrets it. *He* said it was not fair to me (ya think?) and he now realizes he should have taken a few years alone before getting in a new R (ya think?). *He* also said he hired a dirt bag of an attny and he regrets it.
He wants to know if we can be friends (the umpteenth time he has asked in 36 months). And *he* wants to know what I have planned legally and if I could "please let him know so he can protect his "interests".
And *he* has gone so far out of his way to avoid the final dissolution *he* has now taken a job (for less money I might add) that will keep him traveling 90% of his work week. And *he* has pleaded for relief from the court to delay the dissolution come this Nov. due to his demanding work schedule.
I can relate to every single word you say.
For *he* declared I was not good enough, too sick, not a woman and the entire source of not only his misery but all the misery the world experiences. *He* declared he "can't be married anymore!" yet he is the one demanding we stay married. *He* is the one who stood in a parking lot spitting in my face like a rabid dog declaring "I'm done, NOTHING will ever change my mind" is now quite irate that "done" is way too final for him. And *he* is shared with me it's his great hope I am not done.
Since he lives with his hot little mistress and he is madly in love and happier than he has ever been it's curious so much is missing from his life. No? It is curious the thing that scares him most, a divorce, is the exact *thing* he demanded to a point of emotional and legal abuse.
And your W is my H without the penis. They are quite simply very confused individuals. They are incapable of dealing with their own sh*t so they continue to riddle our lives with crap. And it's a terrible, terrible shame the very court system that was designed to provide fair and just solutions, resolutions and dissolutions continues to allow a cheating WAS to dictate so much.
So I told *him* flat out... sure, we can be friends! Why don't you bring your mistress over, we can have a few cocktails and share a meal and you can let us know when "friend time" will happen and when "mistress time" will happen. That way there will be no more confusion, drama or hurt feelings and all THREE of us can be on the same page. He was not keen to that suggestion. Most probably because he is not "allowed" to be talking to me.
And there is some part of me that insists we have compassion for *him* and *her* because they are very, very unhappy and mixed up people.
I have no solutions or answers. Do what you can for you. Do what you can for your children. Do what you can to work within this legal system that seems to celebrate the abusive behavior of the WAS. There is no reason that 18 or 36 months later we should still be embroiled in a divorce case from the legal side. But somehow we both are. It's hell. Anybody who tries to tell you otherwise hasn't even come close a "difficult" legal divorce. It takes a toll in ways we cannot articulate.
I can relate. Many of us can.
These people are so utterly selfish and self-centered...they are trying to make themselves feel better about the wrongs they have done by getting y'all to actually be OK with what they've done! No matter the emotional pain and turmoil it continues to put you through...that hasn't even crossed their mind...because it's all about them! To this day, after all that has transpired, it's still all about them!
But this settling-for-less thing ... that I should be glad she's willing to carve out this much space in her life for me, that I'm somehow worth that much but no more.
...
Why would I want to hear anything about her life without me? Why would she want to hear about mine? "Congratulations on all the great things that are happening to you."
These are my feelings exactly. I was, in poker terms, all in with STBXW and she didn't want that. I get it now. I lost all my chips and I'm going to get up from the table and head out. I'm certainly not going to sit around and cheer her on.
If we didn't have daughters I'd never talk to her again. I have enough friends. She was supposed to be the friend that was always at my back.
@CityGirl, @Clinging -- at least we know we're not unique!
It's weird, though -- in the last 24 hours I've been overtaken by this almost preternatural calm.
STBX and I'd had this discussion a few weeks ago in which I crossed what was apparently a bright line and mentioned the current Signore. STBX wigged-out, told me "
I cannot possibly convey to you how truly and deeply I hate you," and declared that Signore is "OFF LIMITS" [sic].
It came to me in my few hours of sleep last night, like a lightning bolt hurled directly into the old cerebral cortex by Zeus himself: she is (or believes herself to be) absolutely, 100%, head-over-heels in love with this Old World character! And the boundary I'd crossed was one inside her head she doesn't want to confront -- the idea that maybe Signore Schmuckatelli the
nth might, in spite of the fact that he speaks with an o-so-sexy furrin accent, also just be a regular, G.I.-issue Dumb-A** Man.
Which would be really, really bad from a Walkaway POV. Because it would mean the grass really
isn't greener on the other side.
And I felt such utter calm at that notion.
She had to have some kind of surgical procedure recently, and she'd been Johnny Appleseed with the hints about it, so finally I got bored with the hints and just said, "Look, I know it's not my business anymore, but what's up with this? Do you need help with the kids or what? I'm sure someone's on the job, but in case."
And she went through this long explanation of how she appreciated my concern, and I'm right it's not my business -- okay, so far so good -- and then, "
It's nobody's business; nobody knows; nobody cares; and there's no way I'm going to burden anyone with my problems."
So okay, whatever. That's an avocado pit, not an apple seed. So Signore Schmuckatelli
n has not expressed sufficient concern / worry / whatever -- so what?
And last night it struck me -- ye gods, she
SO wants Signore to make it his business! She
SO wants him to know! She
SO wants him to care! And he's not!
Which would suggest that the only reason she won't "burden" him with her problem is that she's re-enacting the pattern she followed with me in the M -- she expects him to "get it." He's supposed to feel her so deeply that he "just knows." After all, as she said to me on D-Day about my own shortcomings, if you "really care" for someone, wouldn't you "just know"?
And then
so much else fell into place.
Like why she was such easy pickings for Signore Schmuckatelli I, and why the collapse of that...thing...so hurt her that she came to me for comforting.
I recalled that she'd told me she "knew" he was "different" and had a real "connection" with her because at their first dinner he'd asked what was wrong out of the clear blue, and when she told him "nothing," he said, "But you have sad eyes," and he didn't want to see her cry.
O swoon! And she could sense he was so-much better than me, so much more attuned, so
into her, because he "just knew," he could "just sense her truth" (though apparently what she didn't know was that he was just quoting a
cheezy 1970s song which, when you think about it, is a pretty good strategy for the kind of sexual predator who preys on married women).
And that, of course, would seem to explain why she was so heartbroken when Schmuck I didn't pick-up on all the hints she dropped about meeting up with him later and so, from her POV, dissed her and blew her off. Gasp!
He really didn't "just know"! She was wrong again!
And here she goes 'round the mulberry bush for the umpteenth time. That whole
Tammy Wynette outburst -- OFF LIMITS --would suggest to me she still has some kind of desire or want or need -- desperately -- for this, the latest in an ever-growing line of Signores, to be "different" -- he has to "just know"! And yet, it appears he doesn't.
Bummer.
But bummerer still -- what could be worse, what could better guarantee the Pompeii-like eruption (
bam! I hate you!) of fear and anger and (self?) loathing, than Smiley's Person Hisownself -- that Model of DAMdom, that oblivious, not getting it, not "hearing" her, sad-eyes-not-noticing, useless no-account STBXH of hers --
him somehow getting it when Milord Haw-Haw the Viscount Schmuckatelli Smythe Hamstercage the Thurd didn't?
There he was, Smiley's Person, once-and-future Spy in the House of Love, knowing that she wanted someone to ask after her, ask how she was, was she scared, what did she need, Doing The Job -- while Prince Charming was out riding to hounds I say, what-ho, pip-pip, and all that.
O cruel fate!
I think she just can't deal with it, the reality. Sure, we're pretty cool, and we demonstrate great taste when we pick out the neon beer signs we intend to hang in the living room, and we know all the lyrics to the best classic rock albums and we're really good at belching and farting and stuff, but at the end of the day we men-folk are kind of stupid. We're dog-like in that way. So keep it simple, ladies -- yes, no, sit, fetch. Subject-verb-carburetor.
We get that.
But STBX? She's still languishing in the
Eat, Pray, Love Fantasy World, where chivalric balladeers notice her sad eyes and carry her off on their magickal unicorns to castles atop Rainbow Mountain in the Land of Bliss, and where the Cool Together Gals of the Oughties dump their useless no-accounts in favor of sexy foreign men with accents (just like Elizabeth Gilbert herself did).
And discover, shock among shocks, that foreign men are just different breeds of dog. Every bit as dumb and, often, a lot harder to care for.
Hot. Diggity. Dam.
It wasn't me. It
was her. Seems she just can't live here on Planet Earth with the rest of us.
And for some reason that makes me feel very, very calm. Good old Dinah Washington; what a difference a day makes.
But STBX? She's still languishing in the Eat, Pray, Love Fantasy World,
The follow up book to "Eat, Pray, Love" is "Committed".
Maybe she should read that one
Had a court date scheduled on Monday -- some lawyer thing materialized, and it had to be rescheduled. Another month. All I can do is wait -- and STBX doesn't seem to be in any particular hurry. Which isn't surprising, since her strategy is to out-spend me
She filed ... Yet she won't make a single settlement offer -- all she'll do is demand them from me and reject them outright.
Oh, SP. I feel the frustration in your posts and want you to know that you are not alone. My H, too, filed for the motion to go to court and I got there and thought I was going to die and wouldn't you know it got postponed...for TWO more months. Ugh. Just D me, it's what you want, you know? And he's the same re: negotiating anything w/ me. Refuses anything I say by way of my L and demands over and over again that I sign what he wants.
I have NO idea what's up with these people. But just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.
It really is the million dollar question -- why do they delay the D process, when THEY are the ones who filed and so wanted out? Anyone have an answer to that??? I will never forget the broken look on my H's face the day I saw him in court. And I was thinking, WHY? You should be doing cartwheels.
Hey SP..
How about calling her Schmuckatella?
*hugs*
SP...I have to share a bit with you...I know you have heard this before but...you need to realize that your wife is mentally ill (and probably always has been).
My father was also mentally ill, and my brother and I, along with many other family members, never really "got it" for such a long time. His behaviors were so confusing. We spent hours/days talking amongst ourselves, trying to figure out what to do or how to handle this latest issue.
My mom was the only one who really "got it" (even though it took her 12 years, and she married him and divorced him TWICE)...but once she "got it", then she stopped trying to "figure it out". There simply IS NO FIGURING IT OUT. You cannot and will not "figure it out". All the wondering you are doing on how she could do this after she said that, and all the many variations on this, will never get you any closer to figuring it out. You will never have closure on how or why she could do any of it. You cannot have closure with a mentally ill person.
I was lucky that I did finally understand what it takes to deal with a mentally ill person by the time I was about 30. At that point, I was no longer hurt or disappointed by my father, even though he would do things that should hurt and disappoint any daughter. But I "get it" now. I cannot compare him or his actions to a person who is not mentally ill. To try to make such a comparison will make you crazy!
So eventually...you accept that there is no answer to the questions you are asking..."why would she say one thing one day and the opposite thing the next day"...."why would she screw me over and then claim to want to be my friend"....there are NO ANSWERS to these questions.
The only answer, to all of them, is this: "She is mentally ill".
That doesn't mean she shouldn't be accountable or get a free pass or whatever. But what it does mean is that you will have to set up emotional boundaries within YOURSELF, where you don't let her or her actions or choices INTO YOUR MIND.
...you need to realize that your wife is mentally ill (and probably always has been).
Welcome to the club SP!