Divorcebusting.com
so in keeping with a theme....I haven't had a thread for awhile--mostly didn't feel I had a lot to offer in terms of encouragement. it's been an incredibly difficult year--emotionally, spiritually, and financially, with a lot of healing and more than a few setbacks. as you can see from my signature, the divorce has been final for months. I have to say that my sitch was probably not typical, because--for whatever reason--my xh was "resolute" (his term) and never wavered, never looked back, never reconsidered for even a moment. dropped the bomb, wanted a divorce immediately, refused any communication not aimed at divorce, and things proceeded accordingly. difficult to DB successfully when the other person doesn't even see you as a human being any more. that's meant to be an encouragement to you newcomers, because my sitch was truly not typical in that way.

life goes on; I wouldn't say life is good, exactly, altho I have learned a lot and grown. it's just so hard to see your child(ren) going thru something awful that you have no control over. and it's even more difficult to have no control over fully half of her life, when she's with her father and--as I recently discovered--the OW who D13 is aware broke up our family. that has been the hardest part. I'm having a very difficult time with this. She thinks OW is "okay," her adult daughters are "almost like having sisters," the horse farm is fun and she is learning to ride. tonight she mentioned she is thinking about competing (they do a lot of this), and my heart is breaking because I will not be able (emotionally) to attend these events. it feels like betrayal, if I'm completely honest, and I am trying hard to feign interest and make it possible for her to share these things with me. but it may be the most difficult thing I've ever done.

Seven months or so post-bomb, I reconnected with an old friend in another state with whom I've had no contact for around 20 years. He crossed my mind one day and I googled him--and there he was. I don't believe in coincidence; his wife--perhaps with borderline personality disorder?--left him the month before xh left me. we've been able to be a very good support for each other--lots of parallel process going on. and we're both bloody, wounded messes, hundreds of miles apart, realizing that there's potential for a wonderful relationship but also knowing now is not the time. the only wise course right now is to pursue the tremendous amount of healing I need to do, lean into a good friendship, and trust that God will take care of the rest. no, I don't need a man in my life to be whole, but my sitch is also atypical in that I am rather uniquely isolated--absolutely no family, lost a lot of friends in the divorce. this connection is healthy, and helpful. years of therapy between us, so at least we're quite conscious of our baggage and issues. and very intentional about being kind to one another, and helping each other heal. no commitment (except never to lose contact again), just getting to know each other and being able to lean on one another from time to time--and not feeling isolated is very helpful.
Heya Hooz! Good to hear from you!

I am still in limbo land - yay! That was sarcasm in case you didn't get it across the keyboard.
I'm so sorry! Limbo sucks.
Ok, y'all who have been here--how do you deal with your children's new lives with OW's or OM's and their families? I'm having a very difficult time with this. On bad days I wonder how much more xH and OW can take away from me. On better days I'm happy for D13 that she is learning to ride and gets some horse time; I'm trying to be happy that she has some new connections in her life, because right now I have very few to offer her. But that's gonna take awhile, I'm afraid. I hate that she has to deal with her father's hypocrisy (a supposedly faithful chaplain and candidate for priesthood openly living in an adulterous affair) and with OW's values (she's a Wiccan, and obviously could care less about having broken up a family). And there's nothing I can do about any of this. If I don't find a way to roll with it, it will simply continue to happen without my knowledge.

Oh, and yes, it was in our preliminary divorce agreement that D would not be around OW until the end of the school year. That was completely disregarded, and H had the nerve to tell me that it wasn't any of my business. Sorry, bud, but even if you choose to behave as if I no longer exist--I'm still the mother.
Hi Hoosiermama

Sorry to meet under these circumstances.

My divorce will be final next month. I'm having to deal with the OW be a part of XH's life. She isnt in the same country yet but she has already begun to be a part of my daughter's life in that she selects the clothes that XH buys for my daughter etc.

I'm mentally preparing myself for this and tell myself that I should be glad that she is willing to try to be a part of my daughter's life. I tell myself that I am glad that my daughter will have an extra person who loves her. I know this is really easy to say and very difficult to put into practice.

The fact that my life is so detached from XH helps a lot. I've accepted (althought it hurts) that his GF (who used to be OW) is now part of XHs life. She is going to be part of my daughter's life and for my daughter's sake and happiness I am willing to be accept this. I tell myself that at the end of the day, I can only do the best that I can by my daughter and trust that the values and love she gets from me will nurture our relationship and withstand damaging outside influences.

Not sure if this helps. Wishing you strength and peace.
Forgot to say .... love your thread title laugh
I'm in the same boat. My x isn't a chaplain, but a Boy Scout leader. It isn't easy, but my IC and the kids' IC just keep telling me that, in the end, the kids know. They will know what their father did.
So, I listen to my D tell me stories about her time over there. It is more centered on the other little girl there (no stories about how great the gf is, yet).

It sucks, but like you said, you don't want her to stop telling you about her time there. My refrain has been, if anything or anyone, ANYwhere, makes you uncomfortable, you can always come to me and tell me. I don't say this as they are about to go over there or while they are there, just in random conversation. And it does apply to everything - school, friends, etc.
The kids IC has pointed out that, as much as I would like to, I can't protect my kids from everything, be with them everywhere and isolate them. There will be bullies, teachers they don't like, etc. It just has to be like that - be supportive.
Originally Posted By: SophieL
Hi Hoosiermama

Sorry to meet under these circumstances.

My divorce will be final next month. I'm having to deal with the OW be a part of XH's life. She isnt in the same country yet but she has already begun to be a part of my daughter's life in that she selects the clothes that XH buys for my daughter etc.

I'm mentally preparing myself for this and tell myself that I should be glad that she is willing to try to be a part of my daughter's life. I tell myself that I am glad that my daughter will have an extra person who loves her. I know this is really easy to say and very difficult to put into practice.

The fact that my life is so detached from XH helps a lot. I've accepted (althought it hurts) that his GF (who used to be OW) is now part of XHs life. She is going to be part of my daughter's life and for my daughter's sake and happiness I am willing to be accept this. I tell myself that at the end of the day, I can only do the best that I can by my daughter and trust that the values and love she gets from me will nurture our relationship and withstand damaging outside influences.

Not sure if this helps. Wishing you strength and peace.

Thank you. I am trying to get to this point--praying to get to this point--but right now all I can do is smile and nod while I'm screaming inside!
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
I'm in the same boat. My x isn't a chaplain, but a Boy Scout leader. It isn't easy, but my IC and the kids' IC just keep telling me that, in the end, the kids know. They will know what their father did.
So, I listen to my D tell me stories about her time over there. It is more centered on the other little girl there (no stories about how great the gf is, yet).

It sucks, but like you said, you don't want her to stop telling you about her time there. My refrain has been, if anything or anyone, ANYwhere, makes you uncomfortable, you can always come to me and tell me. I don't say this as they are about to go over there or while they are there, just in random conversation. And it does apply to everything - school, friends, etc.
The kids IC has pointed out that, as much as I would like to, I can't protect my kids from everything, be with them everywhere and isolate them. There will be bullies, teachers they don't like, etc. It just has to be like that - be supportive.

That's good advice. And D13 does know what her father did. She articulates that quite well--without my asking. She's just trying to make the best of the situation. I can remember doing the same thing when I was growing up--and I hate that she has to do it too.

I have a fairly specific concern about the hypocrisy, tho. My faith is very important to me; at the moment, my religion is the only structure and community I have to offer D13. I want her to grow up with the values I've spent 13 years trying to instill--but kids are so sensitive to hypocrisy, and I'm so afraid it will kill her faith. All I can do, I know, is continue to live it in a healthy way, continue to be an example. The rest I have to let go.
"All I can do, I know, is continue to live it in a healthy way, continue to be an example. The rest I have to let go."


Yes!
I just heard from a friend that I should get another female dog, name it <OW's name>, and when I feel the need to yell about "that crazy b***h," I'll have a good excuse and D13 will never know! After all, OW's first horse has MY name (oh, yeah, and since she's deeply spiritual and all, she and xH considered that a "sign." Of what, I'm not sure--perhaps a sign of looking for rationalizations?!)
Hello, HM,

So much of your story and current sitch seems so awfully similar to mine, with genders switched. My D was final in April too. And I am struggling to keep from going insane as the OM keeps worming his way into my S's lives. I enjoy my time with my boys very much, but there came a point during a swim in the pool with them last weekend, and they were going on and on about how "Mr. OM" did these special fun activities with them in their pool, that I stopped what I was doing long enough to ask them both to just cease comparing what we do to what he and xW have been doing. I have not really been so sensitive about these things in the last few months, but in the last week this was getting to be too much. And I know they're just children and don't fully comprehend the impact of what they're saying, but unless I said something to them how else are they to learn to not be so insensitive.

I am now deeply resentful of xW for allowing her f'ing BF to roughhouse and get physical with my S's, especially in a shallow apartment swimming pool. She is again running counter to the safety instructions I have been instructing our S's (no jumping or diving, for example). And I find it highly inappropriate -- and not just because I am jealous for my S's.

So I really understand your mixed emotions -- you want your children to enjoy a lot of positive experiences, but not with people who have been proven to be morally bankrupt.
Quote:
So I really understand your mixed emotions -- you want your children to enjoy a lot of positive experiences, but not with people who have been proven to be morally bankrupt.

Exactly!! And I think you handled your situation well. I suppose I will become less sensitive to it as time goes on. The fact that it had been going on for 8 months without my knowledge--in fact, it had been intentionally denied--really took the wind out of my sails.
That is just terrible - it means that they put your D in the position that she had to lie or omit the truth to you about what was going on, too. What a nasty position to put a child in...

As for your issue of faith, you can just keep repeating to her that people are fallible...God gave each of us the option to CHOOSE our own path. In the end, it comes down to each of us which path that will be.
Yes, you're right--she is getting a good lesson in loving someone in spite of their bad behavior. A lot of other, less desirable lessons, tho, I'm afraid--such as how men should treat women.

And actually, I get the distinct impression that D chose not to tell me, not that she was told not to. I don't think they give a rat's patootie what I think, it just isn't a factor. She didn't want to hurt my feelings, and I overreacted (in D's opinion) to their first meeting so she wanted to avoid that response again.
okay, anyone know how to avoid the rebound effect in subsequent relationships? I don't have a lot of room for error these days--I have to be the parent to show D13 a healthy relationship, since her father is doing such an abysmal job in that area. Besides, I don't need any more heartbreak--or to cause any further heartbreak! And this current "relationship" or whatever it is, has serious potential--if I don't destroy it with my insecurity and baggage. I've heard that one should wait a year for each 5 years of marriage before entering another committed relationship (altho I'm thinking that was a fairly random guideline) which gives me another 2 years. Which I can do, but y'know, I'd like to do this--if I do--before entering a nursing home!! So any other guidelines anyone's heard, aside from taking things slowly, doing the work, figuring out and working on what I did to contribute to the death of my marriage, and lots of prayer?!

And no, I don't feel that I NEED a man in my life to be whole. I would not have gone looking for a relationship at this point, not ready to date, but this one kinda fell into my lap and so far has been such a blessing. Besides, it's "green"--I'm recycling an old friendship!!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I've heard that one should wait a year for each 5 years of marriage before entering another committed relationship (altho I'm thinking that was a fairly random guideline) which gives me another 2 years. Which I can do, but y'know, I'd like to do this--if I do--before entering a nursing home!!
!
I would think by that they mean you shouldn't get committed, like getting engaged or remarried for another 2 years, not that you can't date during that time though. Just try to take it as slow as possible. You sound like you're in a really healthy place though and aware of what to avoid, so should be good. Karen
Loving toughness for singles.... from James Dobson.
These are good. Use them.

This is long, but very beneficial to know.

1) Don't let the relationship move too fast in its infancy. The phrase "too hot not to cool down" has validity. Take it one step at a time.

2) Don't discuss your personal inadequacies and flaws in great detail when the relationship is new. No matter how warm and accepting your friend may be, any great revelation of low self-esteem or embarrassing weaknesses can be fatal when interpersonal "valleys" occur. And they WILL occur.


3)Remember that respect precedes love. Build it stone upon stone.

4)Don't call too often on the phone or give the other person an oportunity to get tired of you.

5) Don't be too quick to reveal your desire to get married-or that you think you've just found Mr. Wonderful or Miss Marvelous. If your partner has not arrived at the same conclusion, you'll throw him or her into panic.

6) MOST IMPORTANT. Relationships are constantly being "tested" by cautious lovers who like to nibble at the bait before swallowing the hook. This testing procedure takes many forms, but it usually involves pulling backward from the other person to see what will happen. Perhaps a foolish fight is initiated. Maye two weeks will pass without a phone call. Or sometimes flirtation occurs with a rival. In each instance, the question being asked is, "How important am I to you and what would you do if you lost me?" An even more basic issue lies below that one. It wants to know, "How free am I to leave if I want to?" It is incredibly important in these instances to appear poised, secure and equally independent. Do not grasp the other person and beg for mercy. Some people remain single throughout life because they cannot resist the temptation to grovel when the test occurs.

7) Extending the same concept, keep in mind that virtually every dating relationship that continues for a year or more and seems to be moving toward marriage will be given the ultimate test. A breakup will occur, motivated by only one of the lovers. The rejected individual should know that their future together depends on the skill with which he/she handles that crisis. If the hurting individual can remain calm as Shirley did with me, the next two steps may be reconciliation and marriage. It often happens that way. If not, then no amount of pleading will change anything.

8) Do not expect anyone to meet all your emotional needs. Maintain interests and activities outside that romantic relationship, even after marriage.

9) Guard against selfishness in your love affair. Neither the man nor the woman should do all the giving. I once broke up with a girl because she let me take her to nice places, bring her flowers, buy her lunch, etc. I wanted to do these things, but expected her to reciprocate in some way. She didn't.

10) Beware of blindness to obvious warning signs that tell you that your potential husband or wife is basically dis-loyal, hateful, spiritually uncommitted, hooked on drugs or alcohol, given to selfishness, etc. Believe me, a bad marriage is far worse than the most lonely instance of singleness.

11) Don't marry the person you think you can live with; marry only the individual you think you can't live without.

12) Be careful to defend the "line of respect," even during a dating relationship. A man SHOULD open doors for a woman on a formal evening; a woman SHOULD speak respectfully of her escort when in public, etc. If you don't preserve this delicate line when the foundations of marriage are being laid, it will be virtually impossible to construct them later.

13) Do not equate human worth with flawless beauty or hand-someness! If you require physical perfection in your mate, he or she may make the same demands of you. Don't let love escape you because of the false values of your culture. In the same vein, be careful not to compare yourself with others-which is the root of all inferiority.

14) If genuine love has escaped you thus far, don't begin believing "no one would ever want me." That is a deadly trap that can destroy you, emotionally! Millions of people aree looking for someone to love. The problem is finding one another!

15) Regardless of how brilliant the love affair has been, take time to "check your assucmptions" with your partner before committing yourself to marriage. It is surprising how often men and women plunge toward matrimony without ever becoming aware of major differences in expectation between them. For example:
a. Do you want to have children? How soon? How many?
b Where will you live?
c. Will the wife work? How soon? How about after children are born?
d. Who will lead in the relationship? What does that really mean?
e. How will you relate to your in-laws?
f. How will money be spent?
g. Where will you attend church?
16) Finally, sexual familiarity can be deadly to a relationship. In addition to the many moral, spiritual and physical reasons for remaining virgins until marriage, there are numerous psychological and interpersonal advantages to the exercise of self-control and discipline. Though it's an old fashioned notion, perhaps, it is still true that men do not resect "easy" women and often become bored with those who have held nothing in reserve. Likewise, women often disrespect men who have only one thing on their minds. Both sexes need to remember how to use a very ancient word. It's pronounced "NO!"
Whoa, gooch, that's a lot to digest!! Most of it makes me feel pretty good (with the occasional struggle with #6 of course!--many of us who were left for someone else probably have a bit to overcome in #6). Some of it doesn't necessarily transfer over to those of us who are of a certain age, or who live hundreds of miles apart.

Thanks for taking the time to read and to share something so detailed. I hope others can find it useful as well.

I have an advantage in having known this guy for about 25 years now. Yeah, during most of that time we had no contact, lol!! but in terms of consistency and growth, we see each other from the perspective of who we used to be and who we have become. Back then we had a very good friendship (no benefits...) and it feels as if we've picked that up where it left off. Except that we're grownups now and appreciate each others' kindness more than we would have back then. He's always felt very safe, and reconnecting has felt like coming home again. And I'm inclined to trust those feelings.
D13 is a bit upset this morning. xH called and OW has to put one of her horses down due to a hoof problem. And I feel...sad. For the horse.
Hey, (((((Hoozh)))))!

I understand how you feel as about OW's presence in you D's life. It's a horrible feeling to feel like we are helpless in taking any action when something is so painful to us. I think though that you are doing a wonderful job in trying to put your D13's comfort first in not making a "big deal" of it. That would just give D13 pain, because she loves you and doesn't want to see you in pain......not to mention the power and validation that it would give to your XH. I know that your D13 sees your strength and dignity in spite of pain (which I have no doubt she knows you feel) and will thank you for it someday. And she will be the better woman for having you as an example.

As for the potential relationship, I recently read a book titled "Getting Past Your Breakup" by Susan J Elliott that really helped me. In it, one of the things she talked about was how our relationships are a reflection of where we are, and how to avoid "rebound" mistakes and how to work on ourselves so we can build healthy new reltionships, and how to recognize when we get one. Anyway, check it out.

Take care!
I so hope you're right. I was really doing well as far as healing and overcoming, and then I found out about all of this and it was quite a setback. Just trying to figure out a way to deal, without a whole lot of support.

And thanks for the book suggestion. Not sure I've ever been in a healthy relationship, nor did I grow up observing any. I'm comforted to know that my friend has not only had years of therapy (as have I), but is also professionally an expert in cognitive behavioral therapy. While this certainly does not guarantee that either of us can apply any of this stuff to our own lives, we are both quite conscious of pitfalls and thinking errors, and have been able to point them out--gently--to each other when they come up. I will definitely check out that book.
Another flipped gender commentator here. I will say at first I was mortified libid and furious of OM's immediate interaction with my sons. I know I've gotta have some "good" posts from my earlier days in dealing with it.

My my biggest issues was that S12 is a special needs child and very impressionable. So immediately, although confused, he latched on to OM instantly and thought nothing of it to tell me of their times together. That was SO hard to consume. XW would just 'rationalize', "it's ok, they know him".

It's been a year now, and after 2 months of being D'd and XW finally seeing 'hey this is it, this is what you wanted' and that our children only see their father for a minamilist time, XW has been wistling a whole new tune. That combined with the 'honeymoon stage' is there in respect to the kids as well, and guess what, honyemoon's over and OM isn't so great to be around, and doesn't do things the way dad would. That in itself has helped me get over, not accept, OM's presence.

Sure I still get erked to see his car and expecially witness him playing in the yard, but in the end so far, they know who their father is, and who loves them as a father should. Susequently, at merely 11 and 12, they know who broke the family up, how they handle that is yet a chapter to be written.

So for what it's worth, switch the gender roles around for the situation and hopefully that helps you out.
Oh, and as far as a new R goes, eek, tread carefuly. You slowly come to find things you thought were "fixed" were just duct taped together. I tried just about the same time as the D was final to date a former old friend of nearly 20 years, after some rough waves at the end, it has come to a peaceful understanding of not being ready. Matter of fact we were jsut e-mailing today for the first time in a while.

On a side note and combining the two issues, I also think that not being in a visable relation to the kids helps them know you are there for them and who stayed strong for family as well.
thanks, d. I think I just need to hear other people who have been here and who survived intact and with good relationships with their kids. this is definitely the hardest part of it all so far.

and yes, D13 figured out in the very beginning about what happened, who was involved, and who made the decision to break up our family. I never had to tell her a thing.

and xH is so narcissistic (always has been) and just feels entitled to have what he wants when he wants it--which now includes a whole second family and integrating our daughter into it. whether or not it's a good thing for her is pretty much irrelevant.
yeah, and I think that's why this being a long-distance thing is positive. very difficult at times, but the best thing in the long run. D13 has some idea that I've reconnected with a good friend, and she thinks he's funny (ah, facebook connections--and very rare posts back and forth) but nothing more than that. and when he visited--very briefly--she was not here and knew nothing about it.

I know exactly what you mean about the duct tape, too. old wounds pop up when you least expect them. just moving very slowly, very carefully, and being very gentle with each other.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
.... just moving very slowly, very carefully, and being very gentle with each other.


I gotta say this sounds pretty wonderful, Hoozh!!! Good for you!!!

(((((HUGS)))))
it feels pretty wonderful, actually. I just don't always trust my feelings these days.
ugggghhh.

per D13--xH took the day off today to be with OW as one of her horses was euthanized. such a sensitive guy.

and I'm reminded of perhaps the turning point in our relationship/marriage--when I was in labor with a dead baby, for the second time in 3 years, and walked the halls for 3 hours by myself while H was in the hospital cafeteria with his support person. such a sensitive guy. oh well, it was just his wife, it was just his son--not his soulmate and her horse.

they deserve each other, don't they?!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
..... I just don't always trust my feelings these days.


You and me both!! Did you see my update over on my thread from today? crazy

I feel so out of my element in so many ways these days......
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
.... such a sensitive guy. oh well, it was just his wife, it was just his son--not his soulmate and her horse.


Hey, I have an idea! You can send him a condolence card......along with the business card of a taxidermist!!!! wink Remember, Roy Rogers had Trigger stuffed!!! grin
lol!! not a bad idea. I guess this just shows I'm not as far along in the grief process as I thought I was, if this triggers painful memories of 12 years ago! held together with duct tape, indeed.
Originally Posted By: Silent Chrleader
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
..... I just don't always trust my feelings these days.


You and me both!! Did you see my update over on my thread from today? crazy

I feel so out of my element in so many ways these days......

not yet, but I'll check it out.

it's difficult when during years of therapy, we learn to feel, identify, and trust our feelings. and then, sometimes when we do, someone takes advantage of that or manipulates our feelings. the natural thing is to shut down again; trying not to do that.
This is really hard. D13 just called me at work, told me her dad was on the way to pick her up. Several hours early. When I asked why so early, she told me that OW and family were going to the State Fair, so they were going to take her along.

I'm happy that she gets to go; I wasn't able to afford to take us, even with free tickets. Things are very tight financially with school starting. But--I HATE that she's going with these people!! I hate that they get to have a good time with her when I can't afford to do much besides provide the basics. This whole thing is just so unfair and there's not a thing I can do about it. She has my husband--why does she want my daughter too?
breathe and relax, I know exactly where you're coming from, but if you don't let it go it will tear away at your sanity.

Even without finances, there are plenty of things to do that can make a lasting impression on your child. Simple things too, it took me a while too, but you just need to think outside the box.
Posted By: K4D Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 08/18/09 06:54 PM
Be strong. Remember that your daughter is not going to judge you by how much money she has. You offer pure genuine love and she knows that and it will be a much bigger bond as she grows.

Don't let her see your disapointment. Be happy for her when she returns home. Show her your love for her.

It isn't fair. I agree. None of this is fair to any of us. But these are the current circumstances we live in right now. My W has a lot more money to spend than I do to. She dates guys who make what she makes. If she were to M one of them, I'd have to watch the same thing you are.

Remember that money can't buy love. Your daughter will know who loves her the most. And regardless of what people want to believe, I don't buy into this theory that both parents love their kids equally. If that were the case, they would not be putting their kids through this. They love themselves more than they love their kids. But it is not for us to judge. It is for us to show our kids unconditional love.

And you provide something OW will never be able to provide or buy. You are your daughters REAL mother and have been there for her since day 1 and always will be. OW can never be what you are.

Take heart in knowing that. In the mean time, is there something you can do around your house to help take your mind off things? Maybe watch a good TV show or movie, read a book, work on a hobbie, cook some comfort food?

Kevin
thanks, guys. fortunately I'll have some time to pull it together again--I won't see her now until after school on Friday. and tonite I work my 2nd job at the clinic until 8 pm, so it will take my mind off this.
Nicely put Kevin, and holy snap, you're timeline dates are almost exactly the same as mine! crazy
I need to vent here because I'm having a rough night and I just need to get it out of my head.

after 19 months, I'm tired of hurting. I'm tired of lousy surprises and having absolutely no control over my life. I'm tired of losing people for no good reason. I'm tired of being isolated. I'm tired of being perpetually broke in spite of working my fanny off. please indulge me this brief pity party. I promise it's temporary.

worked my 2nd job this evening. got home and eventually got online, and my friend popped up to IM. which was just what I needed. however, he had 5 minutes to chat before...going to the grocery store. geez. ummm, abandonment issues here, friend. no further donations needed.

words of wisdom, anyone?
Hey, ((((((Hoozh)))))).

I don't know about words of "wisdom", but I can tell you what I learned that worked for me and how I learned it.......

Everybody says that the MLC'er has to "hit bottom" before they begin the journey back "home" (although "home" may not include reconciling the marriage)..... Well, I have wondered if perhaps we, the LBS, have to likewise "hit bottom" before we are able to potentially turn a corner and really begin to do the real growth we need to do.

For example, in my own case, the major turning point for me was the night my kids (both "adults" but living with me at the time) basically "ganged up" on me because they did not agree that this was still my house and this was not a democracy just because they past a date on the calendar (i.e. over 18). They weren't paying rent or anything but wanted me to "respect them as adults" and felt they should have "an equal say" in certain things......this was all predicated on the fact that my S18 had once again taken my car without permission and I was out looking for him at 2am on a work night, so I had told him if he couldn't abide my rules, there was the door....

So, anyway, I put my foot down, they banded together, and left......and I was alone......and even my Mother, who is an "enabler" to the core, couldn't believe I was so "mean" as to "kick them out".

Well, I had lived for my family my whole life. I never wanted to be a career woman. My H, my kids......my mother had lived with us for 4 years after split from my dad..... my brother had lived with us...... my family always called me the caregiver.

But that night, I felt total abandoned. No Hope. I found out what it was to be "in crisis". I did what they always tell you to do and called my C and then called a friend (somebody off these boards actually). And I got through it, and the next day I was different. Since that night, I have steadily been getting better and better. That night I realized that my life was mine and though I love my kids, and my family and others......they don't define me and only by taking care of myself can I be a truly healthy person, and perhaps have a healthy relationship one day.

Hoozh, I think that you and many of us on these boards are the caregivers of the world, and that is a wonderful thing. Most of us have known great pain in our lives, so our pain tolerance is high, thus maybe it takes us longer to "hit bottom" than others. Does that make sense? My C even said that the body can only take so much and then it either breaks or you turn a corner.

Anyway, I'm sorry for being long winded, but that is what I have thought about several times recently. I think that each of us is just different and we get there when we get there. So long as you want to get there, and don't give up, you will eventually be successful. That's been a really tough one for me, because I swear I am the most impatient person ever born! crazy

Hoozh, just try to remember to be kind to yourself. You are your own best friend! And I'll go out on a limb here, and say that even putting your daughter before you is potential hazard. Don't get me wrong..... of course children's needs come first absolutely.....but it's not healthy for children to be the center of the household. The best gift a parent can give a child is a good strong base to grown from. Model for your daughter how you would like to see her behave. Teach her how to take care of herself by taking care of yourself!

Anyway, take care and know you are in my thoughts.....
Thanks, TJ, for such a thoughtful reply and for sharing your painful experience.

I've found that there are many corners to turn in this whole experience. just when I think I've made progress and can continue on the straightaway, picking up some speed, there's "another f'ing opportunity for growth" (aka an "afog experience!).

and I so hear you about being a caregiver and not taking care of myself. sometimes I wonder if this is the ultimate lesson I'm supposed to get out of all of this (not that it happened for this reason, you understand, but that this is my redemption to discover). because I have always been lousy at that, and even today I have no idea how to do it. I'm either working, cleaning, running errands, surfing (that's how I wind down) or sleeping. I do try to reach out to friends, but honestly at this point most of them communicate with me online. which is fine most of the time, but coffee with somebody sometime would be great.

so I'm open to some good, creative self-care ideas! especially low-cost or no-cost ones. anyone? anyone?

thanks again for your help!! I am feeling better today. I ate half a quart of ice cream--from the carton with a spoon--so I've had my pathetic wallow for the time being. at least it was "light" ice cream, and I didn't eat it in bed. that's a step or two lower on the ladder!! but sometimes a good strategy!
btw--I did get a long email from my long-distance friend last night, but it was on my work account so I didn't get it until this morning. also a text just before going to bed. and it turns out he had to go and pick up his daughter after youth group at church--not sure where the whole grocery store thing came from.
Funny, I was dealing with the isolating feeling recently, too. Spoke to IC about it today, and...well, I should put it over on my thread wink

But know that you are not alone in these feelings...
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
Funny, I was dealing with the isolating feeling recently, too. Spoke to IC about it today, and...well, I should put it over on my thread wink

But know that you are not alone in these feelings...
yeah, that isolation thing is a real trigger for me. I'm trying to keep it in my head and deal with it that way, because otherwise I panic, get depressed, eat ice cream from the carton, etc. I'm learning to recognize the feeling before I react emotionally, so that I can do some constructive self-talk. A little do-it-myself cognitive behavioral therapy. Most of my poorer decisions in life have been in response to that sense of isolation--it only took me 53 years to figure out how to deal with it!
ugh. ran into an old friend at the grocery store who used to work with xH years back. and she kept asking me questions about him until it occurred to me she didn't know that he dumped me for Wiccawoman. so I spilled it there in the grocery store and it made her cry. she thought the world of him--and she was calling him names tonite. but I walked away feeling completely wrung out. I hate this part.

come to think of it, there aren't many parts I DO like about this whole thing. except, perhaps, reconnecting with old friends and making a few new ones!
Heard from my L on Friday--nasty note wondering why I hadn't made arrangements to pay the enormous fee I owe him. I never received a statement. Now I'm in the process of making arrangements to pay it off over time, and I'm just struck by how dramatically xH's choices continue to negatively impact his daughter.

Got a note from my friend from 800 miles away. Seems his xW recently started dating, and forwarded him a graphic love note from the man she just spent the weekend with. She's a classic WAW, altho perhaps even a little more extreme. He's amazed that she's already "in love" and planning a future with the new guy. And I was reminded that my xH was in love and planning to spend the rest of his life with his "soulmate" just 2 days after they discovered a mutual interest in each other. Another reason I think that WAW syndrome and MLC deserve their own DSM-IV category--so predictable.
Quote:
...I think that WAW syndrome and MLC deserve their own DSM-IV category


Amen to that! I've thought the same thing.
ah, yes...now I remember why I haven't had a thread in awhile....

so--journaling.

We are now into the second week of school at the elementary where I am a school nurse. On Monday one of our PTA officers was arrested for stealing funds. Yesterday an angry mother (angry because I insisted she cannot send her children to school while they are infested with lice) took a swing at me--fortunately hitting the door next to me instead of my head. And one of our first-graders beat the tar out of his teacher in front of a horrified group of 6-year-olds. This morning I had to call the police for that same mother, who made a scene and refused to leave my clinic after being asked twice.

Welcome to inner-city public school nursing. I don't recall it being this bad last year, and I'm concerned that we're at this level this early in the year!
Sounds like one of the two schools I teach at....my students start next Thursday.
But hey, you have a PTA?! And funds?!

I don't envy the job you have - working with the parents can be more stressful than the kids!
oh, much more stressful. altho this family was just so delightful all the way around. little heathens (3rd and 4th grade, old enough to know better) were tearing the place up, breaking equipment, and picking the lice out of their hair to spread around.

re:funds--we're a "full-purpose partnership" school and get a lot of funds from all over. PTA is basically just the president!
Sounds all-too familiar.

Sounds like you need a Behavior Modification Specialist on staff (aka, an ex-football linebacker). It's a nicer label than Bouncer.
Ahhhhh...the joys of teaching. One of my students got suspended and taken away in handcuffs the second day of school for threatening to blow up school. I think he may have been teasing with the teacher, but remarks like that can't be taken lightly anymore, sadly.
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
Sounds all-too familiar.

Sounds like you need a Behavior Modification Specialist on staff (aka, an ex-football linebacker). It's a nicer label than Bouncer.

That's a darn good idea!! I'll take it to the board.
Originally Posted By: Yoyowife
Ahhhhh...the joys of teaching. One of my students got suspended and taken away in handcuffs the second day of school for threatening to blow up school. I think he may have been teasing with the teacher, but remarks like that can't be taken lightly anymore, sadly.

I'm the school nurse!! in an elementary school!
I just caught on that you had started a new thread. Getting up to speed now...
"Love a Nurse?" I remember that saying! can't say it has much basis in reality, tho!
thanks for looking in on me!
For about 16 months now I have lived one day at a time, sometimes an hour at a time, just plodding ahead, just putting one foot in front of the other. I have survived an incredibly difficult time. But when does it begin to feel like I'm alive again? When?

Just a year and a half ago I was so connected with community, church, family, friends. My marriage wasn't great, but I couldn't figure out anything more to do to make it better--so I simply prayed for wisdom, for healing for the relationship. But really, it hadn't been good for many years. I couldn't get past my resentment of his profound selfishness, and I really had a sense that if I sacrificed any more of my needs that I would just disappear. It truly was best that it end--however, I guess I would have preferred some honesty and integrity in that instead of just suddenly being left for someone else. Especially since that was never acknowledged, either by xH, family, or most of our friends. I think it would have been easier to grieve if there were some real feelings there, some sense of mutual responsibility instead of a whole different reality being presented which included that I was entirely to blame. It kind of makes it difficult to dissect and figure out how I contributed to the death of the marriage, and to my daughter being a child of divorce. Because I can't really move forward until I've figured all that out. I'm getting there.

It seems almost surreal that I am this isolated from my former life. Not just that my marriage is over and my family is completely different, but that I no longer have virtually any of the connections I so valued just a year and a half ago. Because I lost my job just days before xH dropped the bomb--and my job was in my church--I have lost that community. Most of my friends were there, and while most of them understand all that happened, our lives are just very different now and we no longer have all that we had in common. It hurts to go to church anywhere else, altho I have tried; this is simply what happens to most people who do church work and have it end badly. It just takes awhile to recover from the betrayal and feel comfortable in community again.

Friends from outside church have, amazingly, mostly sided with xH and cut me off--altho I don't understand why it was so necessary to take sides. I guess that's just what happens--you take sides or you feel too awkward and just withdraw. Who knows what he told them about the breakup; it couldn't have been the truth, because wouldn't they have been more sympathetic if they knew and believed it? The little that I hear involves their happiness for him to have found his soulmate--again--after all these years. Okay, leaving me out of it--what about the effect of all of that on his daughter? I cannot understand this coming from people I've shared my life with. I'm trying to find the reality in all of this--because it doesn't seem to be the one I've been living.

I have no family, except of course for D13. I was so happy to have nieces and nephews and relatives by marriage--but they no longer want any connection with me, don't even want to hear from me. I don't understand that. I didn't do anything wrong--but now I'll never see my daughter's cousins again. Except perhaps at Major Life Events involving D13--graduation, wedding, etc. But then, how do you respond to them? I don't have a clue; at the moment I feel a sense of shame when I think about it, and I don't even know why.

This is the part of the grief over the end of the marriage that will take the longest. It didn't take all that long--a year, perhaps?--to realize I'm better off without xH. (well, not ocunting financially.) But I lost so much more than my marriage. When I read on these boards the posts from those considering taking that final, irrevocable step, it makes me so sad because I wonder if they realize the vastness of the ripples flowing out from that decision. It is so difficult to begin again at 53--relationally, financially it is very much like being 23 and beginning my life right out of college. But it's much more difficult to reinvent myself this time around.

I'm tired. D13 is gone for the weekend at a family reunion. I need to get out of the house and out of my head, but there's so much to do here chore-wise (I just don't have the energy after work during the week) and I don't have any money until next weekend. I will find something to do, because I need to recharge and vacuuming and laundry are not going to accomplish that for myself.

I realize this is mostly journalling, but it's helpful to process outside my head. Interesting that my experience on these boards has so mirrored the rest of my life--lots of onlookers and readers, very few responses. But having a life that looks like a train wreck isn't all that attractive, I suppose. Just wish I knew when I will feel like I am living again and not just going through the motions. It feels somewhat pathetic that most of my friends are online, and I never see them in person or talk with them--but I am grateful for that connection just the same.
I have successfully slept away most of Saturday. Way too much to do around the house and I don't have the energy, even if I knew where to begin.

I'm numb, and wondering what I'm trying not to feel. When the woman was screaming at me and took a punch earlier in the week, I thought it was interesting that I never flinched. I was just a little shaky after it was over, but I felt nothing. No anger, no fear. Nothing. When my principal told me the resolution of the incident was that I should not be alone in a room with her, I thought--well, yeah, that's inappropriate, how am I going to manage that?--and I should have been angry. But I felt nothing. On Friday I saw a dog get hit by a car on the way to work. But I couldn't cry. The picture replayed over and over in my head, but it didn't connect emotionally. When D drove off with xH yesterday for the weekend, I watched them drive away and probably stayed at the window for 5 minutes. But I didn't feel anything at all. This is rather concerning. It's as if I am as invisible to myself as I am to everyone else.

But I still check about a hundred times a day for email from ... someone, anyone. No, not xH. Just replies to notes I've sent, news from friends. And I hate that I am that pathetic, that I can't seem to find something to occupy my time that is more productive. Or at least less pathetic. And I'm wondering how the hell I got to this point, and how long I will be here. What is the lesson to be learned from all of this? I'm very very anxious to "get it" so that I can move on.
(((((Huzh))))),

I have felt the same way. I've let Saturdays when I am without my kids go unproductive -- I've let the serious reorganization, consolidation and cleaning effort I began earlier in the Summer to languish. My apartment is a wreck, a never ending reminder of the entropy I struggle against. I suffer paralysis at the magnitude of what lies before me. It's all I can do sometimes to get myself up to face the day.

I have suffered deep depression for more than five years. Oddly, I think I began to turn the corner on that right after the bomb struck -- I had to get myself out of that or else I would not be here now. I discovered that God was waiting for me, ready to pick me up and lead me. I am more truly joyful now than I can remember, but that does not mean that I still don't suffer the recurring pain of depression from time to time. Given how much each of we LBS' go through, how could we not feel these lead weights.

No, the dark cloud is always there, ready to consume me if I let it. And with God's help, it won't, I won't. I can recognize it now, much more easily, and seeing it for what it is, I can deal with it better.

You're not alone here. You have lots of company -- although that very thought brings both comfort and its own sadness at the same time.

Do you have an IC? Just talking to my IC, who has been a spiritual as well as psychological counselor, has helped me tremendously over these last two years. I haven't seen my IC since April, and I think it is way past time to speak with him again (maybe when I get past this financial drought.)

The main thing to remember is that your first course of action is to talk to God. Prayer is so important to your entire well-being. It should always be our first course of action, not our last. It really helps and does give me the strength I need to carry on.

Hugs and blessings.
Thanks, ncb.

My prayer life and my relationship with God are still good, one of my few remaining intact relationships. I pray for healing, for wisdom, for strength. I did almost 7 years of ministry, which sort of ended the same week as my marriage--and that helped me to understand God's love. I find church very difficult right now, tho, because I have felt so betrayed by xH's church (where he still serves in a leadership capacity) and my own, where I was bullied out of a job.

I cannot afford IC right now. If I could, I would be getting it for D13. I don't qualify for any aid or reduced fees based upon my salary; I just have a lot of expenses, including attorney fees and old medical bills. I am still doing spiritual direction, however, after a year's hiatus.

Still taking large doses of AD's, or I wouldn't be making it at all, I think. I have never coped well with feeling isolated, and I have felt isolated many times in my life. And I have yet to figure out a strategy to prevent that from triggering despair. The bete noir continues to stalk. I do all that stuff you're supposed to do--get active, do creative things, reach out over and over and over to friends, stay busy. But the loneliness is terrible.

I have experienced joy over the past year or so. Many times. It's just that there is so much time in-between filled with moment-by-moment existence. God is present, but God cannot change my circumstances. I believe that he is as sad as I am about the rejection I have experienced. Nevertheless, I feel it just the same. Sometimes you just need somebody with skin on, you know?
This makes me so sad to read, hm. I just want to scream, what is wrong with all these people, your supposed friends should be supporting you!

Have you looked into a Divorce Care group? I am going through it now, it's 14 weeks and tomorrow will be week 4 for me. It is no cost (there is a workbook, but only if you choose to buy one, it's not mandatory).

Maybe something like that would give you some connections with people who understand what you're going through.
I second the recommendation of DC. I have met friends through DC that have really helped me -- even when I am the one doing the helping.

I know about the expense of IC. Even the church-subsidized fees of my own IC are more than I can handle right now. If you can find some sort of low-cost or no-cost support group, like DC, you might meet folks who can help with the loneliness.

Does it ever go away? No. Not really. But the cynical part of me thinks that maybe even in the best of one-on-one relationships a person can feel loneliness, the only difference is that the other person distracts us from recognizing it. Maybe. (Let's just say that I have been having second thoughts on whether I was truly, 100% melded with my W when we were M'ed.)

I also know what you mean about the "skin" of someone too. But even there, I am beginning to think we're just settling -- settling for something that is a poor substitute for what we really want and need, which is God. We are all, each in our own way, seeking Heaven, and we stumble blindly here in the "Shadowlands", as C. S. Lewis describes it, trying to find some semblance of being with God and thus 100% free of loneliness.

I don't know, I'm just rambling now.

I feel ya', Huzh. I hate that your Church is not supporting you. Your predicament is very reminiscent of other DB'ers, like Lovely Olive. I know it is painful to see people who profess a strong closeness with God fail utterly to live by the values they so proclaim.

And then I remember that they are human too, just as fallible as the rest of us, often even more-so. Sad-to-say.
HM -
This seems to be a recurrent theme among us all here, recently. For myself, instead of thinking about dating, I have decided that I want to build up my base of friends (a la Sex and the City). Like you, too many of my eggs were stacked in xH's basket. And I do feel like I am more like an early-20s, rather than a practically 40. Life, take 2.
The days of loneliness do start to spread out, though. I think I have a year more into this that you...they hit, but not as often. There were times when I couldn't get out of bed, even if the kids were home. Not anymore - now, I know what the triggers can be, and the plans I make seem to keep me above it (for now).

An idea about your daughter - you work in a school, with a social worker and school psych, yes? Can one of them offer some help for her? Or someone from her own school? They are usually understanding of these situations and want to help....

I'll write more later...
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
This makes me so sad to read, hm. I just want to scream, what is wrong with all these people, your supposed friends should be supporting you!

Have you looked into a Divorce Care group? I am going through it now, it's 14 weeks and tomorrow will be week 4 for me. It is no cost (there is a workbook, but only if you choose to buy one, it's not mandatory).

Maybe something like that would give you some connections with people who understand what you're going through.

I will look for some Divorce Care groups. Couldn't hurt. I just wasn't familiar with them at all.

As for friends--they're busy, they have lives, and mine can be overwhelming. When they are free, they want to relax and not have to deal with how crazy my life is.
Oh, I know this. Our hearts are restless until they rest in God. I'm not looking for an alternative, a filler--I'm just seeking some support, a little companionship. It's just that I kinda had the perfect storm--and many things imploded simultaneously, and not connected to each other. The fallout will take a long time to clear.
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
HM -
This seems to be a recurrent theme among us all here, recently. For myself, instead of thinking about dating, I have decided that I want to build up my base of friends (a la Sex and the City). Like you, too many of my eggs were stacked in xH's basket. And I do feel like I am more like an early-20s, rather than a practically 40. Life, take 2.
The days of loneliness do start to spread out, though. I think I have a year more into this that you...they hit, but not as often. There were times when I couldn't get out of bed, even if the kids were home. Not anymore - now, I know what the triggers can be, and the plans I make seem to keep me above it (for now).

An idea about your daughter - you work in a school, with a social worker and school psych, yes? Can one of them offer some help for her? Or someone from her own school? They are usually understanding of these situations and want to help....

I'll write more later...

My eggs were stacked in xH's basket, and in my church community--which was also where I worked. In the same week, both pulled out. I knew there was that possibility at work/church, just trying to hang on until D graduated from 8th grade there. But ultimately, I had no control over the timing. And xH--yeah, that just took my by complete surprise. Altho, in retrospect, it shouldn't have either.

D13 is doing okay, really. It's just that she did see an IC a couple of times and really liked it, but then I could no longer afford it and xH wasn't willing to foot the bill. Her school has generally been less than helpful, and as a small parochial school there are no resources like counselors or social workers. But checking with our social worker is probably a good idea.

This is actually the second time I've started over. I was briefly married in my 30's, and started over after that divorce mid-30's. It's harder this time, both because I'm older and because I have a daughter now. But between both these things, I will never be financially well-off, nor will I ever be able to retire. But no point in worrying about that issue right now.
Hi H'mama! I wondered what happened to you. And now I have found your thread again! Yay! I am so happy with the progress you have shown and with the new friendship you have in the long-distance 'relationship'. (Not sure how you would describe it.) I am glad you have that support. But, I am also sad that you feel so isolated and still feel the sharpness of the betrayals of those you love/d. I cannot imagine how that must feel.

You know, I have always felt that you have a knack for storytelling (shows in the turn of phrases you come up with, i.e. wanting someone with skin to hang out with --- paraphrasing here, obviously), and I wonder if you should write a story/book/poem about a character such as yourself. It might help to pour something into a creative venture while still draining away the hurt of your M. It may be cathartic. And, who knows, you might find a new career or sideline hobby that can generate a little money.

Just thinking up ideas for you when you are alone at home. It's something I did when I spent a lot of my day alone and my nights because H was on business trips, kids at school, etc. and we were living in a new city and country. In my case, I wrote poems.

Anyway, I am so chuffed to have connected with your threads again. grin
Good to hear from you, BeingMe! Thanks for the props. Actually, I have published several things in my professional life and been on editorial boards. Only a few things that were creative. xH used to say I ought to write a book--guess he gave me plenty of material! Maybe I will write that book, once I have a bit of perspective on all of this.

I was really feeling the betrayal over the weekend. And I should know better--I need to get out more often, even if it's alone, and get out of my head. Being alone all weekend and talking only to the dogs isn't the healthiest thing I could be doing!

Yeah, about the long-distance "relationship"--I'm not sure what to call it either! He has this sense that the first relationship after divorce is doomed, and I think that's why we don't have names for things--like who we are to each other and how we feel about each other. Because if it isn't a "relationship" it isn't doomed! Which is fine, really. It's good that we're far apart, because we'd have drowned each other instead of keeping each other afloat. And slow is just fine. (just hope someone else doesn't sneak in in the meantime!)

I'm thinking "chuffed" is a good thing, eh? Thanks!
Yes, 'chuffed' is a good thing ---- it means, 'very pleased'.

Who says the first R after a D is doomed? My present M has lasted 23 years after my D from my XH (3 year M). And, here we are, still together even after the EA. Go slow, but if it feels right, then go for it, and if it doesn't work, then at least you tried. This is no time for fear, or not taking risks. Life is for living.

Scr*w the people who have let you down! They have shown their true colours. Let it go, and find a new and better life for yourself.

Phew! Take care. eek grin
Ah, I see! then I'm chuffed about hearing back from you!

Hey, I don't know where that belief came from about the first relationship necessarily being a rebound and therefore doomed. It was he who came up with it! There's a corollary, too--for every 5 years you were married, you need to add a year before being in a committed relationship (e.g. 20 year marriage = 4 years of solitude). He's rather left-brained, being a behavioral scientist and all...I think the numbers give him something concrete to hold onto! But I think it's rather arbitrary, myself. Not quite at the point of that Celine Dion song--"Taking Chances." Not completely trusting myself yet. Actually, my marriage was also the first relationship after my first marriage of 3 years...and in retrospect, it was a bit of a rebound, I suppose. But then, hindsight being 20/20....Anyway, to the extent that I can trust myself, this does feel right, it makes sense logically (very much in common, especially the things that most matter). After the abandonment I experienced throughout much of my marriage, the push-pull of this relationship (normal, healthy) is excruciating, so it's a bit of a learning experience. And that's not a bad thing.

Yes, I do need to let the bad stuff go. And some days I'm better at that than other days.

Thanks for your encouragement!
Quote:
Thanks for your encouragement!
Well, this is my 'new attitude' since being diagnosed with a brain tumour. So! Ask yourself, "what would I do if there was a possibility that I could die from some serious disease?" And, even if not, time is ticking, and you and I are about the same age, so I feel that part of it too. There's little time to muck about with 'family' who clearly couldn't care less how you are doing (I have some of this issue too and I have decided to let it go and they are blood family). There is hardly any time worrying about OW and your XH (as long as they treat your D well, they shouldn't even be on your radar screen).

Quote:
Not completely trusting myself yet.
It doesn't matter if you trust yourself or not ---- experiencing things will teach you to do that, not sitting at home.

Quote:
He's rather left-brained, being a behavioral scientist and all...I think the numbers give him something concrete to hold onto!

Ah, scientists! Have you read "The Last Lecture" by Randy Pausch, a Professor (another scientist). It was very inspiring for me. And, it should be to everyone, whether they are terminally ill or not.

Find some passion in your life. Whether it be another romance or a new skill or even just new friends. Just go find some excitement in your life (of course, within your own personality and idea of what all that means). 'Cause it's just too short to linger, and fuss, and worry about things you have no control over. I know it will take a little time, but I hope the days that you let go of the bad stuff start increasing and the days when you worry about them dwindles into the horizon. smile

Okay, so that's muh message for the day. grin
You know, you're so right! It's been seeping into my consciousness the past few days that I'm living in the past. And that's how I usually know I'm moving into whatever is the next phase of grief--I get bored and frustrated with being wounded. Or perhaps being about the wounds instead of being about the possibilities of life.

I believe I have read The Last Lecture, but found it very painful. Maybe it's time to read it again. It came out just after the bomb.

And you're right about the passion, too. I am a passionate person. But I've stuffed it for so long I had fogotten that. Too many years of trying to earn xH's love--and then just trying to earn his approval, and I forgot who I was. It's time to reinvent Hoosiermama.
Quote:
It's time to reinvent Hoosiermama.

No, find her. You have so much to give without changing who you are. It seems to me that you had reinvented yourself trying to be the perfect W for your XH. He wasn't worth it because all he seemed to care about is himself. Wait until his true self emerges and what poor OW has to deal with. He's happy now while things are going his way. I wonder how she will react when he wants what she doesn't? Oh well! Her problem now.

You are entitled to keen over your wounds, but don't let it go on too long. There be exciting life out there. And so much to discover that you were unable to do because you were tied down.

Take care. smile
Agreed, "re-inventing", not the way to go, learned that one first hand. Rather, finding yourself, who you were and incorporating what you've learned on this adventure and make your old self a better and improved version, the way to go.

Let's face it, M or a long term R for that matter, changes you, you mold yourself into a pattern that worked the other person involved, and now through the unfortunate circumstance, you find youself sitting out there trying to figure how to go on with life as this 'other' person you modified yourself into for a R that is no longer there.
Sigh. I suppose you're right. she's in there somewhere. I wasn't so much thinking of "changing" as much as excavating the authentic hoosiermama. in many ways, I've never been "alone," altho I have spent a lot of time on my own. First marriage came after a long, bizarre relationship which began in college. Relationship/marriage #2 began not too long after Divorce #1, altho both of those stopped and started quite a bit before they settled into marriage. And I know I need to be alone for awhile, and that's okay. It's a little bit complicated for me tho, I think, because I am ALONE--no family at all (and I've been all over the friend thing). Most mistakes I've made in my life (especially Marriage #1, and possibly Marriage #2) have been because of that discomfort--or panic?--about being isolated, having no connections. And I need to get past that and be comfortable with myself, find out who I am before I even consider being in a serious relationship again. It is indeed a blessing that the good professor is several states away and himself committed to non-commitment; it would be too easy for each of us to avoid doing the necessary grief-work by clinging too closely to each other. Add to that that we're both from alcoholic families-of-origin, and even more reason to maintain some distance. The support is wonderful, the synchronicity, the knowledge that someone out there cares a lot about me. Takes the edge off the isolation.

There are moments, tho... I woke up this morning wanting SO much to be wrapped around someone (well, not just anyone), to hold and be held. I mean, it's not like I miss it so much--it's been years and years, and even then it was a transient experience. I wasn't so much sad or lonely or hurting. Just wanted some skin-to-skin contact, some snuggling, to feel someone's warmth, breathe with their breathing, have the comfort of their scent. But honestly, until I figure out who I am when I'm not part of hoosiermama-and-beloved-but-unnamed-guy, I will disappear into a relationship as I have done before, and poison it with my resentment. Not to mention I need to make better choices in men, rather than seeking out someone who is only good at abandonment! Seems to be a pattern for me. The professor? Kind, devoted, considerate, unselfish, stuck it out in a not-so-great 24-year marriage (doesn't seem to be the abandonment type); and I've known him for almost 30 years (admittedly with a long break in the middle) and he's ALWAYS been kind. BUT--as much as I long for companionship, I have a lot to work out before I commit to ANYTHING.

Being somewhat stuck in not exactly knowing where it all began to deteriorate--so that I can learn how not to do it again--I think I'll pick up a copy of Passionate Marriage. It talks a lot about differentiation in intimacy--and that seems to be something I have problems with. I'm too willing to dissolve into a relationship, to disappear in order to make it work. Can anyone relate?!
Originally Posted By: dday101798
Agreed, "re-inventing", not the way to go, learned that one first hand. Rather, finding yourself, who you were and incorporating what you've learned on this adventure and make your old self a better and improved version, the way to go.

Let's face it, M or a long term R for that matter, changes you, you mold yourself into a pattern that worked the other person involved, and now through the unfortunate circumstance, you find youself sitting out there trying to figure how to go on with life as this 'other' person you modified yourself into for a R that is no longer there.

Yes, that's a good insight. And it can be rather confusing when you also became a parent during that relationship--so much changes when one becomes a parent. The really ironic thing is that I was pretty sure--a few years before the bomb--that I had finally found myself, found my niche and what I was good at. That being a wife, mother, pastoral minister. I kinda thought I was doing rather well at all of those, and they were all very fulfilling. So it's difficult to figure out what was dysfunctional in me vs. what was dysfunctional in my marriage and my church/work environment--and how I fit into that dysfunction and contributed to it. I suspect I may need a little bit more time to get some perspective on that.
Rainy Sunday here in the heartland. xH is too busy this weekend to see D13, altho he "might" have her Monday night but will be going out of town Wednesday thru the weekend. When she found out she just looked so sad. We're going to an Egyptology exhibit at a local museum tomorrow (that's my big splurge--it was quite expensive) because D is an aspiring Egyptologist. Big shopping day yesterday--she is "filling out" and doesn't fit into most of her clothes now. Also a big sale at Half-Price Books--gotta love that place.

Haven't heard from the professor for several days now. As always, lots going on in his life. Caught him on FB and invited a chat, but he signed off; replied to a football post there and shut that discussion down. Or maybe he was already signed off, maybe he was just busy. So I'm worried...this is most likely just normal push-pull, pursuit-distancing dance but for someone like me with major abandonment issues, it's somewhat excruciating. Trying hard to focus on other things and "go dark."

But since I can't mow today, it's a good day to do some other organizing things I've been putting off. Also have some reading to do, thanks to the aforementioned book sale. My life is so exciting! I'd love to call up a friend and go have coffee or something. Sigh. No one to call. I've tried that so often lately and not had any responses; it's kinda difficult to keep putting myself out there. And no, I don't talk about all the "issues" in my life--I keep it light, talk about them. It's just that everyone else has a life! I'm trying really hard to GAL!
Hi hm, have you been able to see if there is a Divorce Care group in your area yet?
the only one nearby is on Tuesday evenings, the evening I work at the clinic (my "second job"). I will continue to search, as there are some listed as "pending" but without details re: dates/times.
Hi H'mama! It's so hard maintaining friendships after a D, especially with married friends. I would suggest making new friends. Ones who don't know about your D, and you can just have lighthearted conversations with. Where to meet said friends? (I am sure you know about all these, but it may be worth the reminder.) I suggest the following places (it helped me in new countries and, hence, new cities):

Toastmasters: you get to interact with people and learn to speak in public too. Helped me a lot.

Book Club

Church - I know you have a history there, but perhaps if some new ladies join, you could be the one befriending them.

Political Organizations - if you are interested in politics, perhaps you can volunteer.

Meetup Groups such as http://www.meetup.com/Indysingles/ which point out that they are not a dating service, only for singles to go places and have fun as a group - There are many other meetup groups and I would've definitely tried the sushi meetup group, but that's just me. grin

Red Hat Society - http://www.redhatsociety.com/members/bonusBroadcast_081707.html - this is the one for women like us, still active and over 50.

Anyway, that's my 2c worth for today. I know how hard it is to adjust after a D, and also where there's no family. It really sucks! Hope you're having a good weekend. Really think about some of these ideas, get out there and live. I wish my little town had meetup groups. Dash darn it. grin But, I have school to go to next week. eek
Thanks, BeingMe. I appreciate the ideas. Part of my problem is that I'm perpetually broke, and I have D13 with me most of the time--and her visits with her dad are rarely planned far in advance. She's there when it's convenient for him, and I don't know when that will be more than a couple of days in advance, if that. it's further isolating, but I can't exactly find it in me to mind it!

oooh--sushi meetup group. I could love that! lol--the Toastmasters thing...I used to teach adults and have spoken at state conferences, and have talked in church and done funerals. not that I couldn't be better at it, but it's not something I have never done.

sigh...my professor friend wrote me about several things, unfortunately including having met and recently dated an "amazing, beautiful lady." He was telling me that she dumped him--but it's hard to hear. Not that he shouldn't date--it's just hard to hear. I just have this dread of getting an email that he's met someone wonderful and is in love (altho he says he's not ready, I know how lonely this time is). He's telling me this because he can talk with me about anything--which is good--but I'm not always ready to hear everything. Where we stand is that we care very much for each other, we have an amazingly close relationship, we have feelings we're not ready to label--but we're in no position to pursue anything deeper with each other besides just getting to know each other better. But we're 800 miles apart with no plans to get together again any time soon, and there are "amazing, beautiful ladies" right there. I hate being this insecure! I know I have a lot of healing to do before getting into any kind of relationship--but there's so much potential here that I can't help but hope we end up together when we're both in a better place. And unfortunately, because I feel so isolated generally, it's even more difficult to remain detached here. It's a dangerous place to be.

Any words of wisdom? Anyone?
Hi H'mama! Toastmasters is great for meeting people, not just for learning to speak in public (although we all can sharpen that tool). And, if you're good at it, then you could help others learn.

Although D13 is usually with you and you never know when she will be with her dad, does not mean you can't make a plan to be somewhere one night in the week or a day on the weekend. I am sure she can stand to be alone for a couple of hours (she is over 12 now) or you can tell her dad that that night he must have her.

It does sound like your male friend could be a possibility. And, wouldn't that be wonderful?! But, the reason I am beating the drum of going out, meeting new people, is that he may not be the one. And, I would hate for you to "wait" and then be disappointed. It looks like he is not exactly "waiting" until he is ready before dating. (And, I suspect that he may be a tad overbearing in that regard, like your XH ---- he is a professor and they are not known for their flexibility in thought or small egos --- I could be wrong about this one, and you know him best, but a few things you wrote, put a flag up for me.)

Also, your daughter is going into the teen phase, and I know teens. They generally don't want to hang around mom or dad, and since dad isn't there, you are the one that's going to be left on her own. It's bad enough as it is now. Believe me, I hardly see my D16 even when she's right here at home. I like that she's independent, has loads of friends, is busy with things like air cadets, school, etc. but I miss her sometimes. For example, we used to lie on my bed and watch our favourite program (Star Trek: Voyager) every night. None of that anymore. Now she is more interested in her dad (if any parent) 'cause he has the motorbike, and drives her to go flying the gliders, and so on. Just know that this is coming, although it may be different for you. All my kids were the same in varying degrees, but I was closest to D16 and didn't think it would happen with her. Yeah, right!

Try and go for things that don't cost anything, or cost very little. Just get out there, just one night/day a week. Have something for yourself. Live for yourself, not your daughter (who will be leaving for college within the next 5 years) or any other person. Show her how a woman reacts to a man abandoning her. She moves on through the pain and GAL.

Take care.
Thanks again, BeingMe. There's a lot of wisdom in what you say. I just don't seem to be able to get myself out there like I should. I'm aware I'm probably making excuses, and the bottom line is that I just don't have the emotional energy to figure it all out and do it. So much else is pulling on me too.

I know that D13 will eventually "get a life" herself, and that will be a happy day. She's isolated right now--small school, mean girls, all that stuff. Painful to watch, on top of everything else. It's funny--I've always been so independent, so able to do everything on my own, but a couple of years ago I had a freak accident and dislocated my shoulder, requiring surgery...anyway, it left me feeling really vulnerable in a way I never had before. And I'm kinda performing without a net here. So I've pulled in, don't want to take any risks. It's gotten much better, but it's still there. No longer adventurous. And this isn't exactly what I want to be modeling for my daughter, but I'm kind of doing the best I can at the moment.

I'm not really "waiting" for my friend; it probably seems that way. But my not getting out isn't really related to him at all. I think he's following the script you've laid out for me--getting out, bolstering his self-esteem and trying to heal. And we're both kind of trying to figure out this relationship because we're both carrying a lot of baggage, and while it feels very safe and comfortable neither of us is really open to moving it forward quickly at all. And I have a lot of abandonment baggage--had it before xH abandoned us, and it's twice as bad now! The distance between us probably keeps me from mucking it up too badly, and it's probably good practice. I just need to deal with my issues, my insecurity, and my depression.

I'd be very interested to hear about the flags you noticed. I have a tendency not to pick up on things! He's a behavioral scientist, has had years of therapy, and I've never known him to have all that much of an ego. Very left-brained, but believe me--xH was a narcissist, and one thing that makes my friend so attractive is that I sense none of that in him. As for flexibility, I'm not really in a position to know. I do know he's overwhelmed with life, as I am, but handling it in a different way.

I'm trying hard, I really am. I thought I'd be further along at this point, 17 months out. At this point I'm not so much grieving the loss of my marriage, but the loss of the whole rest of my life that went along with it.
One flag for me is that he told you about this "wonderful, beautiful woman" who dumped him ---- knowing that you have issues with abandonment and that "[you]'re both kind of trying to figure out this relationship because [you]'re both carrying a lot of baggage, and while it feels very safe and comfortable neither of [your are] really open to moving it forward quickly at all." He is a behavioral scientist, yet he feels comfortable telling you he is dating and was dumped by that someone. I'm kinda struggling with that a bit. Why would he tell you that, knowing how sensitive you are to this sort of behaviour?

I will go through your other posts and see what else peaked my ears (I am not, BTW, saying he isn't a good friend, but as for a R, I just wonder). In the meantime, go to a bookstore and while browsing, say "hi" to someone, anyone. 'Kay!? crazy laugh
Just takes one step out the door, one friendly word and a big smile. Sometimes, the 180's in life starts there. I have seen that in my own life.

And don't fear --- know that you are in this place for a reason, but fear is holding you back. Be bold!
Thank you! I'm fine at work--rather outgoing most of the time, have some almost-friends there (or potential friends? don't know how to put it).

As for why he told me about that...that's a good question. It was part of an explanation about it not devastating him when she said she couldn't see him any more, which was part of a larger explanation of healing. Why do I REALLY think he told me? to reinforce that he's not ready for a relationship (at least not the kind he'd have with me) and he is trying to put himself out there as he wants me to do (altho I think he might just freak out if I did). He also feels like I'm the person he can talk with about anything (so, what does that tell him?) and if we're not defining this as a "relationship" then it's probably okay. But honestly? It's a way to keep me at a distance. I hate to project motivations, because that's a "thinking error" that has gotten me into trouble elsewhere in the past. But that's what it feels like. Perhaps I should ask him.
Okay, here's what he wrote (part of a much longer and rather theologically oriented note):

"So something else happened that I am strangely not upset by. I have gone out with a lady a couple of times over the past month. She's amazing: smart, interesting, and beautiful. But we talked tonight and she shared that she's still attached to her past love and she doesn't want to see me any more. And, while the rejection is a bit painful, I'm actually ok. I guess I'm learning that if God isn't in it, it's not supposed to work. And if He is IN it, nothing can stop it. So we had a couple of nice dates and I can let go. I know that God is in control of this and I'm fine with it. I still hate being alone, but not so much that I will "settle" for someone that God hasn't ordained for me. It's all in His perfect timing. So I got dumped, but I'm ok with it. Does that indicate maturity or a pathological detachment? LOL"

My response was that it's difficult for me to "hear" about romantic involvement. And that since we're feeling our way through whatever this is we have, I needed to tell him that.

No response so far.
Okay, this may be obvious, but if his statement below is true, then I would just regard this guy as a friend and forget any romance:

Quote:
And if He is IN it, nothing can stop it.


Because if "God is in it", then nothing would stop a R with you. But, of course, this is how he is turning it around in his mind, and maybe he doesn't think of this with regard to you and he. But, maybe "His perfect time" would bring about a R with you? IOW, the timing isn't right yet.

I wrote more, but I cut it out because I want to think more about this. If nothing else, you have a good friend that understands how you must be feeling.

Just think about this though --- he has had his rebound R and it wasn't with you.

Take care.
Yeah, I took it as the timing isn't right yet. I don't know that this "couple of dates" would count as a whole relationship in terms of rebound...I'd have to check his criteria list!! One major criterion for a serious relationship is that the woman is a Christian, and he's mentioned a few casual relationships as pleasant, good company, but no potential because they're not Christian. I think that the real danger is that I am--and a few other positive things as well. Does that make sense?

Ah, xH has found time in his schedule to have D13 overnight tonite--picking her up at 9 pm due to his work schedule. And that's it for the week. She's sad, but I get the sense that she has lowered her expectations significantly.
xH arrived to pick up D13 about a half hour before she got home from choir. He was going to run to the drugstore, but we ended up standing and chatting (he didn't want to come into the house, and now I'm all itchy from being mosquito buffet). I don't think we've done that since he left, except right after mediation. Just talked about D13, his family, the recent trip to St. Louis. He thought I got new glasses--he hasn't looked at me since I got these, I guess, back in May. I don't feel all warm and fuzzy or anything, but it's kind of a relief to have had a normal conversation because I'm going to have to deal with him for the rest of D's life. And he's going to have to deal with me...and it's better that he talks to me like a human being rather than someone he has to avoid or ignore. Probably helped that it was dark outside!
Yeah, that's always nice to have a ease of tension. XW and I for a while would talk when I was picking up or dropping off the boys up until her last episode, but even after that, she did attempt to make some conversation after she settled down a bit.

There generally isn't much tension. He basically just behaves as if I don't exist. Generally tries to set up visitation thru D, altho I stopped that because it puts too much pressure on her. Picks her up in the driveway, never leaves the car, or we meet at a central spot and don't leave the car. Going to her events he will walk by me and sit alone. Most communication is via email or text. I think it's either discomfort from unconscious guilt at what he's done, or just absolute indifference; perhaps both. Which beats hostility, I suppose, but further feeds into my discomfort about being generally invisible. Which is my problem, no one else's.

I managed to get some of his remaining clothes out to him, as well as a box of books that had been sitting in my family room for the past month. Still have a huge pile of drumset sitting in my craft room taking up space.

Lots of serious, tragic social issues here at my school; kids living in vans, parents picking up kids too drunk to be driving, etc. Puts my life in perspective to a certain degree.
Hoosier,

We haven't talked in a long time. I'm dropping in.

You are doing well under the circumstances, which is pretty crappy nevertheless.

There's the betrayal and abandonment.

There's losing your husband.

There's financial hardship.

There's losing your friends/family/spiritual community.

There's the implioit support of your husband's affair by his church and family.

There's watching your daughter be forced to cozy up to the OW.

It would be enough to drive me crazy. Crazy, angry, exhausted, bitter and depressed.

Your WHOLE world turned upside down, gravity turned off, your life taken away from you. The absolute loss of control over your destiny.

Some thoughts....

1. Get some kind of schedule from your ex-husband for his visitation times. Get your lawyer in on this. You can't plan to have a social life with a floating schedule set according your ex-husband's convenince. If your ex agrees, it's better for you and your daughter. If he doesn't comply to the set times, he doesn't get to see his daughter. I don't think she needs be shielded from his selfish shennanigans. If she sees less of the OW, all the better. You are not called to continually be crucified for your ex-husband's sins. Let him take the heat for some of them. Playing along and killing yourself so that your daughter can have more time with your ex is not healthy. Excercize more control here. You can set a schedule. That way you can have a life.

2. You can control your breathing. Use your breath as a meditative device.

3. You can control your body. It's the most basic form of self-control and self-mastery. Begin to take care of it more. Eat healthier. Excercize it. Walking, hiking and biking are all cheap or free. If you feel you can gain mastery over your body, you will begin to regain some form sense of control over your life. Start inward and work your way out. That's what I'm doing these days, and it's making a world of difference.

4. Community is not an option for you. Socially OR spiritually. In general very, very, very few of the saints were called to be ascetics or hermits. Even monks/nuns live in community. You CAN'T survive spiritually very well without a church family. Find a Catholic parish you feel comfortable in. Join some of the groups. Open youself to friendship. You have a lot to offer. Others have lots to offer you. Ask for help. There are people ready, willing and able to help you. I was never big on the "me and Jesus makes a majority" kind of faith. I know you are not either. But pragmatically speaking, the Christian faith is IMPOSSIBLE to live without community/church. It was not designed to be a solo experience of long, tired and dry obedience. It wasn't even designed to a solo experience of ecstatic mystical experiences -- a kind of auto spiritual eroticism. We experience Christ primarily through his body, the church, imperfect as it is. You will only find a church by visiting some. So whatcha doing next sunday? Go ahead, excercize control over that part of your life, too.

5. Friendship and fun are necessary too. You may find that your church is a way to connect with people. Look online. Meetup groups are often hobby or interest related. Many of the activities are cheap or free. Knitting, hiking, orienteering, dancing. I saw a meetup called Theology and Beer. It's basically sitting over a pint and talking about the "great" issues for hours. If you meet families at church, invite them over for lunch. Plan a picnic. You can take excercize control over that part of your life, too.

Is what I'm saying easy? No. But once you star taking even some small steps, it will get easier.

If many of us lived closer, we'd be there in a second. But since we aren't, you're gonna have to reach out a bit more.

Sermon over.

I'm a big fan of hoosiermama.

You are strong, sweet and sexy. Yeah, your beat up, but your an amazing woman.

Peace,

Theoden
You can do it, H'mama! Theoden is right! And, it's true, if we were there, you'd be inundated with coffee dates. smile
LOL! I wish we could all get together for coffee. regularly! it could be great!
Hi, Theo! Thanks for dropping in.

Wow--I don't know whether to thank you profusely or go stick my head in the oven...but then, as someone pointed out today, it would probably be an electric oven and then I'd just look silly.

You pretty much nailed it--that's how my life has felt over the past year or so. And because I don't usually look at the whole dang thing in one snapshot, it's rather overwhelming when I read what you wrote. I guess I probably shouldn't be too discouraged that I'm not further along in healing.

But then, there are your observations and suggestions...how do you know me so well? 'Cuz you were spot on. Especially the part about community. And I will break this down and digest it piece by piece and begin to implement it. I think I've been trying to sort of coast and assumed that things would fall into place--but they're not because of the devastation at the foundation. So I need to go back to taking baby steps.

I'm not all that amazing, tho, I have to tell you. Because all I'm really doing is surviving, and there's no other option. But you're pretty amazing too--I know your life hasn't been a bowl of cherries, and I appreciate your support.
Theo--we have something here called "Theology on Tap." Sounds similar to what you were describing. It's billed as being for "young adults" which, technically, I have not been for quite some time--so I always figured I'd feel out of place, if I thought about it at all. I only knew about it to begin with because my friend the Official Exorcist of the archdiocese was once a speaker...on Halloween. But--might be worth looking into, for sure.

Been reading about abandonment and "abandoholics" the past few days. I suppose at some level I still think that if I find some "diagnosis" for how I got here, I will be able to avoid being here again. It worked to a certain degree after the first divorce when I dove into codependency stuff; it was very helpful, but pretty much mined that diagnosis. But anyway, I digress...it's a recurring issue throughout my life, and I married 2 men who were excellent at nothing besides abandoning me in pretty significant ways. And here I am again, with Mr. Emotionally Unavailable. With the good professor, it well may be a temporary situation, during the transition out of emotional abuse and divorce. And I'm not all that aware of feeling like I need to "rescue" him--which is a primary factor for women who get into these painful places. But if nothing else, I am learning about myself, my less-than-helpful patterns, and that's a good thing...if I can continue to focus on myself and not obsess about relationship.
Hi hm. I was reading everything I could get my hands on about WHY I may be the way I am and how/why things could not work with my h. It is good to understand, but at some point I just realized that no amount of reading and understanding was ging to make a difference.

One thing I have done (and you may already do this sort of thing, but I did not) was smile at strangers and strike up little convos whenever there was a chance. In line at the grocery store, or at the bank or where ever the opportunity presented itself.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that people actually smiled back at me... and in most cases talked to me when I made the effort.

Those small steps did wonders for my being able to feel connected.
Thanks, NNP. It really isn't a matter of making a difference in a relationship with xH--because I'm not interested in continuing to bash my head against that wall. It's more a matter of understanding my own patterns, how I end up in similar situations, how to not end up there again should I ever find a romantic relationship again.

I am actually a rather friendly person--I chat with folks wherever I am, I have many positive relationships at work. It is simply a lonely period of my life, the degree of catastrophe in my life is simply off-putting to old friends (been in this spot before, after losting my second son--no matter how engaging one tries to be, it's just too much for friends to be comfortable around). It's a matter of baby steps, of continuing to get through one day at a time.
Hoosier,

Figuring why our relationships tend to fail, or why a pattern seems to recur is very helpful.

In other words, "What's wrong with me? How do I fix it? How do I become whole again?"

For me, finding a good cognitive behavioral therapist was a big help in showing me my pathologies. I also took an MMPI (abnormal psych test) which brought some interesting things to light.

In addition, I found a book called No More Mr Nice Guy, which is aimed at men, but nailed about 75% of my issues with some helpful exercizes.

There's really no point obsessing over the relationship, Hoosier -- it's over. There are the anger and abandonment issues, and, perhaps, making sure you set a fair schedule for your daughter seeing your ex. That's about it.

The injustice of it all you can only deal with by working that though with God. In the end, he is your ex's judge. Nothing escapes his gaze.

--Theoden
Thanks, Theo. But the focus in all of this is on ME. Not on the relationship, but of ME in any relationship. As in Why do I keep finding relationships in which I can be devastated and abandoned in creative new ways? Why do I continue to be attracted to emotionally unavailable people? What about my response to people over the years has led me to be so completely and utterly isolated at the age of 53? Finding my issues and how to deal with them, not the dynamics of the relationship--because I'm really tired of thinking about that.

Done the MMPI, Myers-Briggs, Enneagram, and probably a few other exercises to gain insight into myself. I think we're essentially doing the same things here.

Injustice--yeah, still have an issue with that, and I consider it rather juvenile and an ineffective response on my part. But there it is. I think it's ultimately because I tend to see myself as a victim--which I'm trying to work my way out of--I wasn't the one who destroyed our family and sinned grievously, but he continues to thrive while I struggle; he is still perceived as wonderful while I seem to be perceived as broken and deservedly so. And I don't think I'll get much further in healing as long as I persist with that cheeseless tunnel.

Re: No More Mr. Nice Guy--yeah, written for men, but (to quote an old Irish Spring commercial) I like it too. I am, in large part, Ms. Nice Girl. And it hasn't served me well.

Yep, looking for my pathologies so that I can hopefully work through them. Tired of hurting.
Exploring abandonment issues; specifically, do I unconsciously seek out and pursue unavailable people, those who will abandon me? Interesting stuff in googling "abandaholics."

This was also helpful, just in terms of getting "unstuck":
http://www.thirdage.com/today/dating/part-ii-trying-to-get-over-someone
Ah, just ended another relationship. Again. I got a lot of insight into myself in reading about abandonment--and why I keep finding myself in such pain. I keep getting invited into relationships, resisting, then once I am blissfully connected--boom! it isn't real, it isn't what I thought I was being invited into, and I have to adjust and try to be something I'm not, try not to feel what I feel. And then I feel foolish, naked, and--until now--defective. No longer feel defective, just foolish and naked. And so hurt. No, I wasn't misreading cues; going back thru old emails and messages, I was clearly invited in. And I should have known better--but I was so wounded and isolated, and he felt so much like "home," that I was sucked right in. And then--I was alone in it. And I just can't do that to myself any more. For months I have tried to adjust, tried not to feel, tried to be "healthy" but I just can't stuff that genie back into the bottle. So tired of hurting on top of being wounded.

Yes, this hurts, it's scary; I probably just broke the only connection I have. But I can't make myself fit into it, and I can't change it. So yeah, there will be a lot of grief, and I feel lost. But ultimately I won't feel as abandoned--again--as I have.
That was a brave thing to do, H'mama! I just keep feeling that you need a fresh start ---- with yourself, and people you surround yourself with. I can tell that you can be so engaging, having so much to talk about, interesting and intelligent (sometimes, you would mention something --- religion, spiritual, social awareness or whatever --- and I would think later, that I wish I could chat to you about it more, but this is a relationship bb and you're a long way away from where I live).

This abandonment issue will not kick you in the buttinsky. You will not let it define who you are because it is only a teeny tiny part of your psyche, but you are letting it become this giant ogre sitting in your closet. Just let it go and not worry about R's ---- just have fun!

Well, that's my opinion. Hope it helps some. grin
Hi, BeingMe. You're right. I'm overly reflective, don't get out of my head enough to gain any perspective on anything. And I'm so hellbent on trying to learn what I'm supposed to learn, to work through this and get past the pain that I probably make mountains out of molehills.

Yeah, this is a relationship bb, but it's also the part called "surviving." I think we could talk about anything we want here. If not, you can always find me on fb.

And I'm getting a fresh start whether I want it or not! And maybe that's what it's all about anyway.
Difficult to get one on fb nowadays since they blocked private contact here. But if you would like to try, my hm acc is fitness_mood.

In the meantime, try not to reflect too much. Perhaps, take an hour of each day to work on your issues .... think about it, read books on it, talk about it. Then, spend the rest of your day finding uplifting things to do. Use your strengths to get through this, and you have so much.

Take care.
thanks, BeingMe! Definitely, no one can accuse me of not "doing the work!" Probably a bit too much work.

Fortunately my friend recognized my temporary insanity (at a very bad interval in his weekend, btw) and was far more concerned about my stress level than about his own response to my over-reflection. He's a good egg, really.

And I will definitely look for you on fb.
Hi H'mama! My hm address is "fitness_mood" so just mail me and I can give you my fb. NNP is also on there, so we are looking forward to having you on ours.

Hope things are going better there. Take care.
smile
I'd like to request prayers. Got a text early this evening that my friend (the prof in Texas) had some severe cardiac rhythm problems today and had to get a pacemaker. I assume he's okay because he was able to text, and I'm sure he's drugged and sleeping at this point. But I have no one to call to find out how he's doing. He's been under tremendous stress lately. Doesn't sound like this was a heart attack, but an isolated rhythm problem--but one which easily could have killed him. I'm still kind of stunned, don't know what else to say except that I'm grateful this didn't happen while he was out of town most of the week, or on a plane or while driving.
I talked with my friend last night--he called just after I posted. He's been having some irregular heartbeats--which I knew--and had worn a holter monitor several months ago which didn't pick up anything concerning. But because he began to feel light-headed and nauseated from time to time when he felt his heart acting up, he went back to the doctor and wore a holter again (months after I had expressed concern--but still!) And the monitor picked up not the fairly benign rhythm he had assumed, but a complete heart block which, at times, caused him to have 15-second episodes of asystole--no heartbeat. The bizarre thing is that it took almost a week for the doctor to get back to him about that! But things happened quickly, and he got a call in his office yesterday, a cardiologist met him in the ER, got a thorough--and very quick--succession of tests (all clear) and then the pacemaker.

Here's the thing. This should have killed him. Several times over. Just a wiring problem with his heart--no heart attack, everything else is good, just bad genes. But as an old ER nurse, I concur with what his doctor told him: if he wasn't in such good physical shape, he'd be dead. He feels like he's been a miracle, that God has once again taken care of him. And I concur with that too!!
Wow! He is one lucky dude! Really blessed! smile
Indeed. Haven't heard much, except that he got released yesterday morning. I believe he was planning to go to a football game yesterday evening--it's just amazing to me that you can resume your regular life so quickly after all of this!! We live in amazing times.

In other news...D13 got left out of an event at school we were both looking forward to. 8th graders were to have an opportunity to play at a high school football game with the high school band last night. Got some sketchy information about it a week or so ago, with the message that further info was to follow (what to wear, where to meet, music to learn). Never heard any further tho. Checked the school website--nothing, called other parents but didn't hear back from anyone. So we assumed it must have been cancelled for some reason. Until she texted one of her friends, who told her "too bad you missed it--it was so much fun!" So I'm not sure why she would have been the only one who didn't get the information she needed to be there. One would think that parents would have been informed too, but even so--why didn't any of her friends (and they are few) give her information? Why didn't the parents return my calls? The music teacher is notorious for dichotomy--loving you and advocating for you, or hating you and ignoring you--and in spite of 5 years in the school choir and 4 in band, D13 is on the "invisible" list. Sadly, she's had the same music teacher there for 10 years, and almost all of her extracurricular activities center around music because that's where her gifts lie. This is also the staff person I worked with for almost 7 years, who I supported through breast cancer treatment, who lied about me as I left the position. I feared this would happen to D this year, and almost didn't send her back for her final year at this school. Unfortunately, it appears I was correct. She has no speaking parts in an upcoming program (the only 8th grader to be so snubbed), she missed out on this event altho she saw her name on the list to participate, and I anticipate she may very well receive no awards or scholarships or opportunities to participate in other events. In spite of 10 years at this school (including preschool and kdg), countless hours of service by her as well as by me. I feel sick about this. And not real sure how to respond to it, altho I promise I will NOT let it pass.
I agree that you should NOT let this pass. We parents (especially moms) should be our children's advocates when it's a situation where adults have let them down.

Go MOM!!!!
So...any practical suggestions about how to deal with this that doesn't include completely going Mama Bear on them?
Well, there was a time when my D16 was being bullied. My H marched into the principals office demanding to know what was being done about it. If this is a bully free school, then perhaps you can ask why is it okay for the teacher to passively bully your D by ignoring her and denying her access to information about things that are important for her to know.

You can ask the teacher who you helped through breast cancer how she would've felt if everyone had ignored her when she was going through a bad time (which D is doing)? You, at least, expect the same empathy that was afforded her, especially since D is a child.

I am truly disgusted with your school and have never heard of anyone being so treated, and in a religious school at that. I would rather take my chances with the public schools.

I hope you find a way to resolve this before the next time D needs to know something and is again ignored.

Could XH be influencing things here by any remote possibility? Is he wanting D to go to a school closer to him? It just seems so strange to me.
Nope, not a bully-free school; actually, this was something I tried to implement while I was there but was blocked in doing so. See, to establish an anti-bullying program is to admit there IS bullying present, which is apparently not the kind of message we want to send, dontcha see? Yes, this is the kind of logic employed at this fine Christian school.

It has gotten very clique-ish, even among adults in the parish--you're either in or you're out. Express an unpopular opinion or challenge the status quo, and you're labelled a trouble-maker and excluded. It's become part of the culture there--and I've watched people scramble to kiss up and keep their places. This is why I no longer feel comfortable there--well, that and all that happened to me. It's why I struggled with the decision of where to send D to school this year, her 8th grade year (parochial schools here don't have middle schools--they go from 8th grade into high school). Trying to decide if it was worse to have this introverted, recently traumatized young lady try to make it in a brand-new environment or to hang in for one last year where she was familiar with everyone (and there are many, many good people there, and this has been her whole world as long as she remembers). It is about as far from the view I want her to have of Church as possible, but it certainly didn't start out that way.

I have a sense I am still so paralyzed by feeling rejected and betrayed by the community I once considered home, that I am allowing both D and I to be bullied. Time to wake up from the shock and awe and take some action.
Leave no prisoners. mad So what, if you're stamped a troublemaker! That's someone with power, not so?! grin
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Leave no prisoners. mad So what, if you're stamped a troublemaker! That's someone with power, not so?! grin

oh, I'm already labelled a troublemaker--and worse. Because I dared to do a ministry there that took just a tiny bit of the limelight away from the business manager, who must be all things to all people--and be seen as such. That I'm not worried about, and I couldn't make it any worse than it is. The thing is, I have no power in this--certain people would be just as happy to be rid of both of us so they wouldn't have to be reminded of how badly they treated us. So threatening to pull her out of school means nothing--may, in fact, be what they want. And there's really no "going over their heads" because it's really only the folks in power who are like this. Can't appeal to their shame or their view of themselves as Christians, because that obviously is only for show. I was just hoping the good would outweigh the bad for her this year--and there's still a lot of good. Just that the bad is so blatant and involves all the things she really enjoys doing. Giving this lots of prayer.
ummmm--okay. I've hit a new low point.

Child support payment was late last week, not because of xH but because the county switched over to a computerized system that delayed the checks being generated. However, there was no notic of that, and even if there had been I couldn't have avoided having a couple of automatic payments deducted (my share of D's tuition, a mandatory autodeduction). So there were ~$150 in overdraft and other bank fees. My budget is far too tight to absorb that--even one overdraft throws me into a financial crisis. I have cut essentially all non-necessities; we go out to eat perhaps once a month, and never spend more than $30. Entertainment is very rare--a movie or two in the past year. At any rate, this left me unable to pay my mortgage that's due in a week, and because I'm on one of those loan modification programs it absolutely cannot be late or I'll be in foreclosure. And there's not much food in the house. I examined everything; I took some books in to sell, have already sold my gold jewelry awhile back. Finally, in desperation, I asked xH for a loan of $75.

His response? "I'm not going to get into this kind of a pattern." So I thanked him and hung up because I couldn't hold it together and wasn't going to cry on the phone with him. Had a bit of a panic attack. Now, xH makes $100K. I put him through grad school and an internship in our younger days. It's not like I just went out and blew money on new shoes or something, and it's not like I wanted him to just give me money for something frivolous. I explained I needed to buy food for D13.

He called back in ~5 minutes. Yelled at me for hanging up on him, told me I really wasn't in a position to be arguing or to be a bitch. He said things were tight for him, too, because he has all these attorney fees (well, that's what happens when you want to dump your family, kwim? his decision, his choice of attorneys, his freedom.) I lost it--told him that I had no one else to ask (which is very true), there is no such pattern, I wouldn't ask unless I was against the wall, and asked him to consider it just out of respect for my having supported him through 3 years of school. I believe I probably ended up begging. Ultimately he agreed, but said he wasn't going to do it again.

Okay, how much more humiliated do I have to be? I'm trying really hard, I'm going without some necessities and certainly most luxuries. I'm working 2 jobs and looking for a 3rd--and making new graduate wages because as a single mom now I need hours that will allow me to be flexible for D13. Last winter, most of the time I had no heat because I couldn't pay the gas bill (which was ridiculously high) and couldn't afford to repair the furnace--so we generally slept in the family room near the gas fireplace. I cut my own hair, I bring my lunch every day. Can't trade the car in for a cheaper payment--I'm upside down on that loan. The mortgage is actually reasonable--but I have several medical bills from a shoulder injury 2 years ago.

I apologize for the pity party. I just reached the end of my rope. If there are any emergencies (car breaking down, I don't know) I have no options at all. I just keep thinking--I've been working for 35 years, to end up like this with no improvement in sight. I really didn't do anything wrong--I may not have been the absolute perfect wife, but I truly didn't do anything that would justify H just leaving us for someone else. I don't know when I've been this depressed.
hm my heart really goes out to you. I wish there was someething else I could do besides pray. I am so sorry you are in this position.
Me too, H'mama! Thinking of you and hoping for miracles in your life.
Hi hoosiermama,
I am sorry things look so "black" right now. Dont give up. Things WILL get better. Stay strong,
K

Your xH sounds like a jerk (sorry)
thank you. oh, yeah--he's a jerk. it's his fault I'm in this position--and his daughter's in this position--and he feels inclined to further humiliate me. I truly don't understand.

and I so wish I could believe that things will get better. I've been telling myself that for a year and a half, but they honestly just keep getting worse.
oops--I need to be really clear.

in posting this, I am NOT asking for help--except perhaps for prayers. I need to vent and get this out, and this is where I can do it.
We know that, H'mama! smile Vent away! We surely do understand. My m-i-l put her first H through medical school, working as a secretary, and once he became a doctor, he left for someone else. He left her and her S with nothing. Can you imagine, though, she remarried him 2 wives later, had another 2 sons, and he cheated again. He ended up having 8 wives (shades of King Henry VIII), she and one other were the only ones to give him children. She had 3 sons with him, and the other wife had a daughter with disabilities (the W had her later in life). She was, however, the only W in the will when he passed away.

So, these things happen all the time. Doesn't make it any easier to deal with though.

The commonality among these types of men (IMHO) is their seeming charming nature. They can charm the birds out of the trees, but when they're done with them, will crush those very birds under their heals.
oh, so you've met Frank, have you?! He is absolutely charming, gregarious, the kind of person everybody thinks is such a great guy. STILL!! must have been HM's fault, because Frank is such a fabulous individual--oh, and isn't it just wonderful that he reconnected with an old friend? it will help the poor man get thru the pain of the divorce....

I know. It's such a cliche, isn't it?! We're about 18 months into this, and it's STILL all my fault, he's still the victim in this and NOW he has all these LAWYER bills and CHILD SUPPORT to deal with because of me!!
Chin up 'mama.

I've had my back against the wall financially since beginning of last month. And every time it seems like I get caught up, something else direly goes wrong and there goes everything. Hell, I've coasted through this week with $4 to my name, that's a scary feeling when driving 54 miles a day on the lovely west side "streets" of Chicago.

I do take my hat off to you for turning to your X, something I'd never do, that took some pride swallowing for sure, but when you're in a pinch, you do what you need to do. And in looking at it, if you're short, he should be the one to help, but that's just my opinion.

Just know that someway, somehow, in the end it all works out. We're just being challneged, and why are good people challenged? To make us better people. wink
I've been at this for ~18 months--and it has worn on me. It is a CONSTANT worry, and financial crisis limits one's life in so many ways--can't go anywhere, no vacations, no entertainment, can't even go grab a cup of coffee with someone (well, it's not like anyone's been open to that anyway). all the what-if's. this is the part I've coped with least well.

and yeah, he SHOULD be the one to help. because he's not really helping me, he's helping D13. but he truly cannot see past himself, still, even though he has all he wants and needs. and that's the only reason I turned to him. he made it sound like this is something I've been doing routinely, and it's been over a year since I've asked him for help--and that was about the time he decided he couldn't provide any CS because he was entitled to furnish his new apt. with whatever he wanted.
I understand your frustration with ex and with $$. I'm two mos. behind on mortgage right now, trying to sell house ex and I bought together,with 2 incomes. I've been holding on for about 9 mos. but as a contractor things fluctuate.

I know about having only a few $$ in your pocket for a week.

I wish I had answers or some encouragement. God bless you....
He does. And may He bless you too!
Well, here's another idea, if X is concerned about what the loaned funds will be used for: tell him to take some time out and take his D grocery shopping. Not only will it rest his concerns of where the money went, but give him some time iwth his child.
If he did that he'd probably just be concerned that I'd also eat the food!!
D13 and I had a long chat this weekend, which she started about midnight and which I ended about 3 am. She saw me reading yet another relationship book and made a comment. I asked her why she thought I read books like that, and she said "because you're trying to figure out what you did wrong. Mom, you didn't do anything wrong, don't you know that?" She's about done with her dad--she feels like "less than a speck. an atom. an electron" to him. Jackass. He's trying to force a relationship on her with OW's daughters; she might actually like them but she won't be forced. She feels manipulated and used, but not loved. And Frank and OW's relationship is exactly as I would have predicted (but I did not--ever--discuss that with D13--she figured it out herself). He is "putty in her hands," according to D; being manipulated but he doesn't see it. Clare thinks "she's gonna dump him so hard" because "all he's there for is to help her with (her year-old grandson) and cleaning out the horse stalls." She predicts that once the daughter gets a job or goes to school so that she's more available to take care of her own son and help with the horse chores, OW will have no further use for Frank. Frank is a priss; mowing the lawn was a huge ordeal for him. Never saw him with callouses or dirt under his nails; never--in 15 years--saw him work hard enough to break a sweat. And he was the driving force in our relationship (in retrospect, because I probably was trying to earn his love/approval)--strong personality, high needs (of all kinds). For him to be mucking out horse stalls and being p*ssy-whipped is amazing--but not surprising, because that's how their relationship was before. This is, after all, a woman who demands a lot of sacrifice--first, his career as a priest, second, his family. D also says she feels like just his 4th child--he is very involved with the daughters (25 and 19) and especially the grandson--predictable; I think this is the son we almost--but couldn't--have. D says that he lives at the farm, stays at his apartment only when D's there--and it's a pigsty. (this from a kid who can't throw wrappers away or put clothes in the laundry!) He's got a stack of books about horses that he's reading (interesting--he never took the slightest interest in any of my interests!) And she's very hurt that he has a wallet-size photo of her on his dresser, but 8x10's of OW, each daughter, and the grandson. Ouch. We also talked about Frank potentially wanting to return once "he gets dumped, and I told her that while I wish I could fix things, I couldn't imagine ever trusting Frank enough to have a marriage with him ever again, and that if I did that after all we've been through before and since it would be a bad example for her of boundaries in relationships. She agreed that she couldn't trust him again either. Lots of discussion about what he's told her about our marriage--which she knows isn't true, and in fact is actually funny to her. At 3 am I insisted we go to sleep because we were both getting a bit wacky. I got the definite feeling that she's going to be okay. And until this point, I haven't been entirely sure about that.

This is a man with a master's degree in theology, extensive training and 10 years's experience as a hospital chaplain. One would think that that background alone would give him some skills to help his daughter cope with stuff--but he's so intensely self-absorbed (and this is really no different than before the A) that it continues to be all about him. Well, him and OW.
Yep, must be 'chat with the kids week'.

Heh, mine pretty much told me I deserve better than X, that kind of stung a bit. crazy
Our kids are not stupid, and I think your one is particularly sharp. It's quite ironic that your H has turned into you, in a relational way. He is trying to earn OW's love, just like you tried to earn his. We should all be what and who we are, freely, in any R.

Those photos speak volumes! He is sacrificing his only child to this woman.

What a fool he is! Sad!
While I feel sorry for your DD, or anyone's child in this all-too typical situation, I think it encouraging that she at least sees things for what they are.
Yep, here's to smart kids. Of course, you know our x's will say we've poisoned their minds against the abandoning parent. But who really cares what they think anyway?!

This was SUCH an enlightening conversation, and sort of led to several other very enlightening conversations as I processed it. And I'm coming to the conclusion (fleeting, I'm sure) that I'm not such a loser after all, perhaps, but that I am far stronger and wiser than all those folks who abandoned me sorta all at once because they're (and I quote) "such tools, and worse than tools--wedges: the simplest of tools!" Which leaves me no less alone than I was before, but at least I'm not surrounded by people whose love I'm trying to earn while they're simultaneously figuring out how to discard me from their lives while still looking fabulous.

And xH--what a weak, limited, foolish man. I fell for the charming extrovert who was trying to get into my pants, and spent the next 15+ years wondering where he went and why he left behind this guy who was so limited and so apathetic about me, and trying to figure out how to earn the return of the one I fell in love with. As it turns out, and I think I was coming to this realization but didn't know what to do about it--the limited, weak, narcissistic guy was the real Frank.

But I was no spring chicken when I got married. How on earth do I keep from falling into the same trap ever again? There's the real question. 'Cuz I've done it twice now. Will I ever learn?
Instead of looking at charm, find out what the moral character of the man is. Look at how he treats his mother --- usually a good clue. Did the mother allow the son to grow up, or is he still in that dependent state? As soon as a man wants to sweep you off your feet too fast, before meeting family, etc. then think carefully. It's a matter of respect, trust and finally, love. But, it is nice to have that feeling of crazy love, but that's when you date --- not marry.
Good point. I actually knew him fairly well before we actually started "dating" because we had worked together for awhile. As for how he treats his mother--well, everyone ignores her. She barely exists. In 18 years of knowing her, I have yet to have a real conversation with her. So it's kinda hard to judge from that, in this situation. Retrospect is painful for me--there were so many abandonments, including a couple of big ones before we ever got married. I just marvel at my cluelessness. But had we not married, I wouldn't have my wonderful daughter. And no, that's not why folk should get married, but if it's all I have left--it's pretty damn good.

I'm feeling the need, as I do periodically, to write a note of closure to my former inlaws (all of them). I never got to say anything altho I tried to enlist the aid of the ones I was closest to during the very first couple of days of madness. It won't change a thing, but there are just some things I need to say. And if I've lost them anyway (and they are my only family) I feel like I have a right to say what I need to say--such as how much this hurt, how I didn't see it coming, how in spite of all they may have been told it wasn't my idea in the least, how painful it is to lose my nieces and nephews. I've let the urge pass several times in the past, and I'm not sure why. But I feel like I am entitled to speak my truth. Thoughts? Has anyone done this?
I can say I have been sorely tempted myself.

In my case, I don't think it will do a bit of good, but still I think about it from time to time.
No, I wouldn't be doing it for any result except perhaps my own closure.

This is one of those days, increasingly occurring, that the loneliness is excruciating. It is so difficult to go for days without any real conversation with anyone except that related to work. Phone calls and emails that I send out go unreplied--I reach out but I don't get any response. I look into the future and I don't see anything getting any better socially or financially and life is just a treadmill. I just don't think I can keep at it. I'm just too tired.
I have the flu and I feel sicker than I have in years. D13 is taking good care of me, but the really frightening thing is that there's no one I can call for help. Isolation is profoundly sad, of course, but the real impact is when there is no one who will even return phone calls or texts. I don't know how I got here--I really don't--and I don't know how to get out. so I think I'll just go back to bed.
(((((HM))))))
I tried to call in to work tomorrow, since I'm not at all sure I can make it through a whole day after spending the weekend so sick with the flu. However, my boss told me she needs my paperwork asap, definitely Monday morning, and there was no one to cover me so I really have to come in. Maybe someone could come by the afternoon and help me.

Okay, sure. I'm far less important than my paperwork and paying a registry nurse twice what I make to cover. I'm 53, have a history of asthma, have the flu--and work in public health, where my health is not a concern.

So wtf is the point anyway? My only value is what I do, not who I am. I'm alone and isolated and don't even have someone I can call to go pick up a bottle of ibuprofen for me when I'm too sick to drive. I am invisible, truly. I've just hit the wall.
(((((Hoozh))))).

I'm so sorry you are feeling this way!! I too have felt so down all week, so I think it must be something in air! crazy

But, really, you do have value!! Of course you know you do, if only for your beautiful daughter!

I think you need to get "out there". What are you interested it? I have gotten into dancing myself. Yes, it's hard to go in alone, and sometimes I have danced with the little latino woman teacher! But, it is fun, and I have now begun to meet some of the others in the different classes, and I have even gone out a couple times now with them.

So, what do you like? Maybe bowling, or Bingo, or volunteer for a cause you believe it, or learning to plan an instument (although that one doesn't really get you out among people). I know it's hard! I am very much an introvert, although I love people. Anything you can think of to get out there and be among people (especially on a regular basis like a club or activity of some sort so you get to know the people) is a good thing, I think......

Hang in there, honey!!

((((((hugs))))))
Nothing worse than being sick while dealing with a dysfunctional life. I am there with you, in spirit. Not much help, especially with the ibuprofen, but know that you are worth far more than the job you have to tolerate for now.

Have you had the pneumonia shot? I think it's more important than the flu shot.

Take care.
I hope you are feeling better, both physically and mentally. I wish I lived nearby so I could bring you some ibuprofen and chocolate chip cookies.
Hoosier,

Ouch...
Hoozh?????

Where are ya, honey??

I hope you're OK!!!

(((((hugs)))))
I'm okay. Now recovering from viral pneumonia, but I'm on a huge tub of meds and after just one dose I'm feeling amazingly better. D13 is also sick with something viral, but doing okay. I've been working ('cuz, y'know I still have a pulse so I'm expected to be there) but sacking out in the evening.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but sacking out in the evening.


shocked

There goes the PG-13 rating.

lol

Seems to be something going around everywhere these days, I was just sick for a good chunk of last week and all weekend long.
Glad to know you're OK, [[[[Hoozh]]]]!

It's that wonderful time of year...... sick
I can't believe they're making you work in a SCHOOL with VIRAl pneumonia!
Hey, that's a lot better than making me work in a school with an apparently active case of H1N1! Viral pneumonia isn't all that contagious--basically just bronchitis gone bad. Once I get off the prednisone (early next week) and am assured I'm not crazy, I'm taking this a step higher because it should never have happened!!
Originally Posted By: dday101798
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but sacking out in the evening.


shocked

There goes the PG-13 rating.

lol

Seems to be something going around everywhere these days, I was just sick for a good chunk of last week and all weekend long.

oh, believe me, my life is more G than a Disney movie these days.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
my life is more G


Tah-hah, what up G?

I think I need sleep crazy
G-what?


whistle
There are whole stretches of time when everything seems just absurd, when my life seems like a poorly written novel, when I feel not just invisible but truly wonder if this is some altered state of being I'll wake from someday and find my life is more the way I remember it. How did it take me 53 years to lose all connection? No emails for 5 days (no one needs my advice), no facebook replies for...weeks, no phone calls for well over a week. I see people at work--when they need me professionally. I've stopped contacting friends because it just hurts to consistently get the message that their lives are too full and too busy to take time for a cup of coffee with me. When does life begin again?
Awww, Hoosiermama...I just popped in (long time lurker), and wanted to let you know that you DO matter, that you're an amazing woman. ((Hugs)) to you, I hope things get better soon.
Maybe it's time to try some social networking groups?

Hang in there.
Well HM, that's where the point of DB'ing comes in, it's for YOU. I spend more than enough time with myself with out much interaction with the outside world as well. But, if I can mantain a good relationship with myself, then someday others will want to as well.
Hoosier,

We know how you lost all connection.

Shall I review it?

Several injustices in a short period of time torpedoed your life. In the space of several months you went from a gainfully employed respected person with friends, a husband, an extended family to a betrayed discarded single mom struggling to pay the bills.

It really sucks.

If I could...I would gather a posse and beat the living crap out of your husband. I would lay waste to the OW's horse farm. I would have the rector of his church de-frocked and the bishop pay you a compensation check of $250,000 for your troubles. I might be able to accomplish the latter two things, but I don't want to go to jail for assault or property damage.

OK, then what?

In the meantime, you've got us. Rag-tag internet family that we are. Maybe we can help you develop the courage and wisdom to reach out to the right community where you are. You have my number. Call. OK?

--Theoden
Exactly what Theoden says. I don't wish evil on others, but sometimes they too have lessons to learn. But, all in God's time. And, if you want my number, you know where to ask. Or, I will call.

Take care.
H'mama! How are things with you? smile
I was just wondering the same thing.
Things are okay. I have to confess that it's exhausting continuing to live day-by-day, one step at a time. Every now and again I manage to "lift my eyes to the mountain" but mostly it's plodding along. I'm 18 months out from the bomb now; I thought I'd have it together a bit more than I do!

D13 continues to struggle with her feelings for her dad and the Wicked Witch of the Midwest (aka OW). She feels used and manipulated, as she periodically goes with him to the horse farm and has to do chores or babysit for OW's grandson. It's frustrating for her (and for me) that he is such an eager handyman, repairing things and mucking out stalls; one of the major issues in our marriage was that I was responsible for everything, including maintenance and repairs. He didn't like to break a sweat or get dirt under his fingernails. D13 hasn't had the use of our pool for the past 3 summers because it needs repairs, and I haven't had the funds to do it. But he "loves this stuff" of repairing things for OW.

D13 is also spending Thanksgiving with exH and OW--she's taken my place at the family gathering. D13 was supposed to go with them following that meal, to one at OW's mom's house. But she vehemently doesn't want to go, so I'm planning to pick her up from her aunt's house after the first meal. exH doesn't know it yet, and it will get ugly because he feels so entitled to have "all his family" together all day. But it's stressing out my daughter, and that's just stupid.

It must be psychologically damaging at some level, I fear, that she is forced to spend all this time, and is pressured to form relationships, with the woman she knows broke up her family. Fortunately she can vent to me, and sometimes I can step in and protect her. I don't always know in advance what's happening--exH certainly doesn't tell me (still won't really admit that there IS and OW, altho it's absurdly obvious to everyone by now!) and D doesn't always know in advance. So he can manipulate to some degree, by not informing D so she can't inform me. We've talked about it being okay to simply call me if she wants to leave someplace and I'll come and get her--hope she does it some day.
HM
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
D13 is also spending Thanksgiving with exH and OW--she's taken my place at the family gathering.
FWIW, when STBXW and I got married we switched family-gathering Thanksgiving to Friday. None of us had "which-parent-this-holiday-stress", STBXW and I felt almost like we had two days of Thanksgiving, and had the bonus of an extra day to prepare (at a non-crazy pace, to boot).

Re your D,13: At 13, isn't she entitled to have a say, a "no," sometimes?

Gardener, chiming in on the forum he'll be joining officially on December 23.
Oh HM, you'll do yourself a lot of good and do DD less harm if you can change your internal narrative a bit.

Some woman from the 1980s did not cause the end of your M. The problems with the M were internal to the M. And, whoever she is, his GF or just-friend or whatever, she is NOT NOW an OW. You are D. There is no 3-way R. Your EX-H's LL is none of your business, and unless you are the third wheel in it, then from your position there is no R that you have with XH in which you are even in a position for someone to count as OW. And, the woman from the 1980s is not taking your place at EX-H's family's table, because the fact is that you don't have a place there now at Thanksgiving. They are HIS family.

Sorry the holidays are hard, but for your own sake try to move away from feeling like a victim and feeling like you remain entitled to things that you thought you would have in your life.

As far as DD, I've no idea what your custody agreement is, but stick to it. If Thanksgiving is one of his days, then at most all you should do is ask nicely for an exception to pick up DD early. No surprises, no drama, and even better, only nice, business-like communication through email only. Maybe if DD feels it is OK with you for her to enjoy the whole day with her father, then she won't have to disrupt her holiday and be jerked around by the D-stuff in the middle of the day. But, she won't feel that way as long as you drag the old emotional baggage/victimhood/old entitlement stuff around with you.

Set both you and DD free by making a fresh start as an independent empowered woman who does not let past hurts dictate the shape of her present and future as one of the things you are most thankful for this year.
Yes, D13 and I will be celebrating together on Friday or Saturday. It will be fine.

Apparently she does say "no" sometimes--just not always. She verbalized several months back that she has a fear that "he'll stop loving me like he stopped loving you." So I think she's trying, to a certain extent, to please him. I think that my supporting her ability to say "no," and stepping in to provide her an escape route, will be helpful in her willingness to hold her boundaries.
Sorry, OT, but I have to disagree with you on a few points. Perhaps clarifying things will help.

I am aware that I no longer have a relationship with exH beyond co-parenting--and even that is limited by his apparent need for me to be invisible and just go along with all he feels entitled to. (Sorry, no longer married--don't have to go along!) I'm also aware that HIS family is HIS family--even though I was a part of that family for 20 years and have no relatives of my own. If they choose to end their contact with me--because they've heard no end of lies about me--that's their business, and his.

My concern here is not for my own feelings, but those of D13. She has expressed great discomfort about spending the day with the woman--to the point of having anxiety attacks. I don't--nor have I ever--probed for information, guilted her, or done anything to undermine her relationship with her father. She figured out--probably even before I did--that her father left for someone else. He has handled integrating that relationship into his relationship with his daughter very poorly--he had them meet on a spur-of-the-moment whim, without any preparation. She feels pressured to have relationships with her and her adult children, and he's been rather insensitive about prioritizing his own daughter--she feels like a runner-up in his heart to her daughters and grandson. These are all feelings she has poured out through tears. We have informal and flexible arrangements for holidays, mostly so that D13 can spend time with her cousins; she's with exH more on holidays than with me. So while this is "his" holiday, it's her wish to split it with me, rather than spending it with the OW (so what do you propose I call her now?) and her family. There's apparently a lot of tension between exH and his future MIL; D13 expressed that she didn't want to be "all nervous and waiting for another blow-up" on the holiday.

There would be no drama, no jerking-around. The plan is for D to call me when she's ready to come home; I would pick her up in the driveway, quietly. She has felt free to spend the whole day with her father, but she feels a distant second to OW and family when they are all together--she doesn't want to spend it with them.

Believe me, OT, if the past 18 months have taught me anything, it's that I'm entitled to nothing. ExH, on the other hand, has expressed that he feels entitled to have his "whole family" together whenever he wants it, without much regard to how that might impact his D. I grew up forced to live with the OM who came between my parents, to treat him as a father even tho he was an abusive alcoholic; I was told to "just get over it" because this was now my life. I refuse to shut my daughter's feelings down in the same way. I know how this feels to her, and it's not about my victimhood at all.
Interesting evening. D13's choir sang at an interfaith Thanksgiving service, which in itself was fascinating. But what I'm referring to is that exH was there to hear her sing. He was squirming--it was my turf, I was sitting with friends whose kids are also in the choir. And he sat down several rows back--directly in front of my spiritual director! She's an older Franciscan nun, very wise and nurturing (in a very real way, not a dusty and pious one!). She's heard my whole story, for the past 7 years, actually. But never met the xH. At the end of the service she came up to say hello to D13 an exH was there, but beat a very hasty retreat before I could introduce him. She got the drift of the situation and her mouth dropped open--"he was sitting right in front of me! If I'd known that was who it was I would've punched him!"
Your spiritual director sounds really cool! grin
Yes, she is definitely cool!
Buy that woman a beer!!!! LOVE IT!!!!
wish I could! punching's even better than rapping knuckles with a ruler!
A bit of a new wrinkle, and I'd really appreciate some input from others.

I have not yet contacted xH about my picking up D13 before they go to OW's on Thanksgiving. This morning she and I talked about it, and I tried to verify that's what she wanted me to do. But she said she's refusing to make a choice, because if she doesn't go to OW's mom's, her father will just question her and bug her about what lovely people they are and how they want to be a part of her life (whether or not she wants them to be, apparently). She's very resistant to relationships with them, both because she is aware that the woman was the reason xH left his family, and because she feels way down on his priority list--after OW's adult children and grandson. But if she goes, it will be awkward and uncomfortable; xH will essentially ignore her or she'll be asked to keep an eye on the toddler while everyone else chats and eats, and if she tries to hang out with her dad--which is, after all, the point of visitation, is it not?--he will yell at her to stop being his shadow. So for her, either option is unattractive and will lead to her being uncomfortable.

I wish I could say that I will talk to xH and explain all this and he will understand and prioritize D13's needs over his own entitlements--however, most of us don't have WAS's who are that reasonable. He's already told her not to talk to me about OW and family. However, she doesn't feel he's listening to her feelings, and she needs to talk to someone--so she vents to me. Spontaneously, without being prodded or asked.

So it appears I'm on the horns of a dilemma here. I'd really appreciate any ideas you might have about how I can meet my daughter's needs here and make the holiday more positive for her; she has panic attacks about this stuff. I know I don't tend to get a lot of responses, but for those who have been through this, I'd be happy to hear your wisdom about it.
Well, never mind. I ought to know better. There is some fundamental flaw that apparently renders me invisible both in real life and here. Sure wish I could figure it out.
hm, I don't know your entiresitch, I've never been in such a position so, here are some grains of salt ****with which to take the following.
IMHO,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
A bit of a new wrinkle, and I'd really appreciate some input from others.

I have not yet contacted xH about my picking up D13 before they go to OW's on Thanksgiving. This morning she and I talked about it, and I tried to verify that's what she wanted me to do. But she said she's refusing to make a choice, because if she doesn't go to OW's mom's, her father will just question her and bug her about what lovely people they are and how they want to be a part of her life (whether or not she wants them to be, apparently). She's very resistant to relationships with them, both because she is aware that the woman was the reason xH left his family, and because she feels way down on his priority list--after OW's adult children and grandson. But if she goes, it will be awkward and uncomfortable; xH will essentially ignore her or she'll be asked to keep an eye on the toddler while everyone else chats and eats, and if she tries to hang out with her dad--which is, after all, the point of visitation, is it not?--he will yell at her to stop being his shadow. So for her, either option is unattractive and will lead to her being uncomfortable.

I wish I could say that I will talk to xH and explain all this and he will understand and prioritize D13's needs over his own entitlements--however, most of us don't have WAS's who are that reasonable. He's already told her not to talk to me about OW and family. However, she doesn't feel he's listening to her feelings, and she needs to talk to someone--so she vents to me. Spontaneously, without being prodded or asked.

So it appears I'm on the horns of a dilemma here. I'd really appreciate any ideas you might have about how I can meet my daughter's needs here and make the holiday more positive for her; she has panic attacks about this stuff. I know I don't tend to get a lot of responses, but for those who have been through this, I'd be happy to hear your wisdom about it.

red=Your daughters well-being comes first. These are reasons enough to tell him, "She's not coming. We'll discuss it another time but she's not coming because she doesn't want to.PERIOD" Later, get your lawyer involved if you have to.

Blue = "Daddy, you have no right to tell me who I can or cannot talk to nor about what." She has that right. To tell him. Up to you as to whether you think she should or can without anxiety or panic attack.

Italics = I have not been through this, hm. But I think you meet her needs and make the holidays more comfortable by keeping her home and the hell with the consequences for now. Screw Husband'd reactions. "And she won't be with you on Christmas either if you don't stop treating her like a baby-sitter to be ignored and dismissed as a shadow when she seeks some time from her father!!"
mad mad mad

HM, like I said, I don't know the whole sitch, and much of my advice may not be useful at (it's certainly mostly based on my emotions when reading this).

I'd be Goddamned if I'd send my daughter there until some agreements are reached, legally or otherwise.

p.s. Hope you've taken her to Dr. re panic attacks.
hm...sorry that you didn't get a response right away, but I am sure that many of us are dealing with our own holiday "stuff."

That being said, can you just copy and paste what you wrote in this post to your ex? It may not do any good, or it may open up some communication between your D and her father...
assuming that she has tried to talk to him about it with him already and he has been too hasty to dismiss it....

Ultimately, at her age, she is old enough to make her choice. Let her know that. Tell her it goes both ways, too - there may be a time in the future when she chooses to spend time with him rather than you for some reason.
As much as it hurts to watch, their relationship is ultimately their relationship, in the end. The best you can do is be her sounding board and get her outside help to deal with the anxiety (he might not hear it from you, but would most likely if approached by a counselor for his daughter...).

What a terrible position that WAS's put our children in...I often look at my kids and realize that I am the lucky one, having finally removed myself completely from his choices - they will always have him as a father, for better or worse.
Hi HM! Sorry over your sitch! Not sure what to say --- Donna got it right I think.

Take care.
hm I am sorry you feel invisible... I certainly know that feeling. I am sorry I have no useful advice, but I do think of you often, even when I am not checking the boards (which I do less and less lately).
Hi, HM,

I'm going to take a slightly different tact. I pretty much agree with what everyone has said so far, however there's one thing everyone should keep in mind: given your D's age it would be best, for the both of you, if you let her manage her relationship with her father. She can and must begin to learn how to handle her relationship with her other parent and to not come to depend on you to step in for her. (It would be a little different if she were much younger.) Your D can certainly talk to you about such things and you can be her sounding board and source of support, but to preserve your own boundaries as well as to help your DD develop her own healthy boundaries, her father is her own responsibility now.

Having said that, I don't like your exH telling you what you can or cannot say to your D about his family -- that is a case of his own "offsides" infraction. Your R with your D is your own, not his, and you have every right and responsibility to help guide her, even if it is in areas where he is concerned. (The flip-side is also true, however, so keep that in mind.)

I also don't like the fact they expect her to automatically be responsible for her step-family's child. That is over the line and highly unfair to your DD.

I feel bad for her that she is being forced to have to spend time with a step-family that tends to ignore her and take advantage of her. That's just unfair. Her father is being an insensitive jerk and is digging a hole for himself with your D that he will have a hard time getting out of if he persists.

But again, all of these are issues your DD has to confront herself. She needs to talk to her father about these things. If he fails to listen, that will end up costing him over time in his R with his D.

Your role, HM, is to love and support your D through these things and to help guide her through such difficulties, but not to respond to that instinct all we parents have to come to their rescue and defend our child against their other parent. I know, 'cause that's my knee-jerk reaction too -- if it were me, I'd want to go punch some sense into my ex's head too. But the right thing to do is to counsel our children and help them to learn to manage their own R with that other parent, and refrain from getting directly involved. This will help your child learn to develop her own healthy boundaries.

Happy Thanksgiving, HM.
thank you. I had come to the conclusion that I would probably do more harm than good by intervening. time may prove me wrong, but I have a sense that this is something D is going to have to do for herself. she's 13--but a rather young 13, a sheltered 13, and going through a really rough time socially, in school, and with her father. it's difficult to know I can't really intervene in any of these things for her, all I can do is listen and support.

today is harder than I anticipated. trying really hard to maintain an attitude of recognizing my blessings, but today they seem far overshadowed by an oppressive loneliness. tried to plan to volunteer serving or delivering meals today, but none of the places I called ever called me back--ironically contributing to my general sense of irrelevance and invisibility. I thought this year would be better than last, since it's the second round of holidays rather than the first. but I forgot--friends remember you thru the first several months because it's fresh. after that, not so much.
Hi HM! I checked to see if you were open for a chat on FB, but I guess you're not at your computer right now. Yeah, it is best to let D sort out her R with ex-IH (Idiot Husband). Painful to watch and I'm sure there'll be many tears, but you are the soft landing for her, I'm sure. This is the worst time for a girl to "lose" her dad. I remember another db'er from a couple of years ago, how her D13 went into depression, ended up not wanting to see her father (who seemed to favour the S6 of OW) --- so much pain, rage, hurt. Not fair on the children, and it irritates me when these WAS's say "they'll be okay - kids are resilient." Ugh!!!!!

Anyway, I hope this Thanksgiving is the start of something new that you can be thankful for. Don't know what, but there must be something out there that is just for you, because you are your own unique, brilliant, awesome YOU. God made you that way, and if others don't see it, then too bad for them.

Take care.
thanks, BeingMe. Been doing some stuff around the house, sorry I missed you.

Yes, exH seems to value his relationships with the "OW"'s (guess she's not exactly the "other woman" at this point) adult daughters and grandson much more than with D13. At least, that's how D feels, and has given me numerous valid reasons. The older daughter was 3 when they were together the first time, and he seems happy to have reconnected with her; the grandson, now ~1 1/2, and who D often feels forced to babysit, perhaps fills the place of the sons we lost in stillbirths. These are D's thoughts. And she feels very resentful of his insistence to "friend" them all on fb, call, text, go to movies, etc. To a certain extent she can refuse to do things, but being just 13, she has limited options if he forces the issues. It worries me considerably that this is all happening when she's 13, because of that potential for affecting her future relationships.

I'm afraid others don't see much "awesomeness" in me. This has been an extremely difficult day to get thru; no contact with anyone except a few friends from here. It's very painful to be this alone, and with no end in sight. It's one of those "one breath at a time" days.
Is it almost over? I've tried to stay busy, but nothing changes the fact that there's not one soul on the planet who cares enough to call or email (or text, or whatever) to see how I am or wish me well. My daughter has spent the day with exH and the woman who replaced me--he has his family, his daughter, his new family, his friends, the career I helped him build. And it seems I don't even exist any more except to myself. This is no way to live.
You do most certainly exist for your daughter. Focusing on "them" and what they are doing is not very beneficial. Try to "see" what you want your life to look like and start taking the steps to make it a reality.

It all can seem so daunting I know, but you are the only one that can change the ways things are. Please know that you are important, that you do matter and that you are loved.

Happy Thanksgiving.

kat
What Kat said.

Please do not judge your own worth by those around you or not around you. Your value is immeasurable in and of itself. God loves you more than you or anyone else can fully comprehend.

I too am alone right now, but I know that God loves me and is always with me, even through the worst of times. He is with all of us at all times. I am grateful to him for my gift of life.

Here I am, most often the pessimist, one prone to bemoan my fate and cursing the transgressions of others against me. And yet I realize now that I am even thankful for all the pain and misery that has come into my life as they are nothing, absolutely nothing compared to what He endured for my sake. He loves us that much. For that I am in continual awe.

So I embrace my solitude now and wish well on all my loved ones so far away from me at this time. For I know He will be there beside me as I go through this, and I will endeavor to remember He is also there in the good times too - I must not lose sight of that lest I be ungrateful there too. For I know in the end this too shall pass away. It is but a heartbeat that will be gone before you know it, but one that will temper my soul for the coming eternity. For me, I say let His will be done.

HM, your D loves you wherever she is. Don't forget that. You are her mother and that is a very precious R. No one can take that away from you.

Hugs and blessings.
I want to love and be loved; I want a family; I want friends to share my life. And yet, 18 months out, I have no one; I continue to lose people and I don't know why. I have reached out. I've done the work. I've done the reading. I've done therapy. I've tried to look ahead. And it changes nothing, except that I am even more alone. I have survived, and that is all. No, I don't walk around like this; I put on a smile, I am functional and friendly and outgoing. But I'm still invisible.
Yes, I am aware that God is beside me. However, I truly need someone with skin on right now. I don't see how it can be God's will that I am so alone--over, and over, and over. We are not meant to be this alone.
No, we are not meant to be alone.

It is because of our sins however -- not yours, but all of our sin, the sins of Man -- that so much misery is in the world, including loneliness.

The last few days, especially this morning, I have woken up and allowed myself again to remember what it was like to wake up with my beloved beside me, to recall having that skin-on-skin contact -- and to allow myself to stop and feel again the loss of that. It is painful.

But then I remember the pain that ex has caused me. All because of her sins against me, all because of the fall of Man. It wasn't meant to be this way. But it is what we have chosen. Having our own way comes with a terrible price.

This may not be of much comfort to you right now, but usually my life has been so crazy and hectic that I haven't been able to even have some alone time, some time to think and to allow our Father to speak to me. I have gotten that today.

On another note, if it weren't for the "wire" (speaking metaphorically like Peter Gabriel here) I would truly have been cut off from my fellow man this day.

HM, perhaps you have to realize that this phase will eventually come to an end. You have to trust that, and have faith in God to lead you through this valley. Perhaps focusing so much on the pain of this now is what has you stuck in it -- maybe it is time to shoulder it and move forward through it, and eventually beyond it. I don't know. I'm saying this as much for myself as for you.

Hang in there. Courage.
thank you, no code. I thought I had begun to move forward--and then there was this week. I don't know how I can do anything but focus on the pain today; it's overwhelming. I won't survive another holiday like this.
Yes, you will survive holidays. Number one, because you have to (there is a 13 year old who loves and depends on you). And two, because that is what we do.

You said you have done therapy - still going?
If yes, tell them that you want to set goals towards easing your loneliness. It might be getting involved in a hobby, taking a class, inviting people to your house more often, getting involved in a church...back to basic, GAL things. Friends are the family we get to pick - you might need to pick some new ones.
I think it's at family times like Thanksgiving, that one can feel very lonely, if there is no support system in place. It seems all your friends and family, were in fact, his friends and family. Did you live vicariously through him? If so, then it's time to find your own friends and family. I know, it's hard, and it hurts that those you shared many hours of friendship, abandoned you. I bet that deep down, they know and feel bad, but don't want to see your hurt.

Have you ever thought about volunteering at a soup kitchen, or as a nurse for a charity, even if just for a couple of hours a week. I think you would be great at helping within your community. But, if not that, then there must be something else that you can be passionate about. Maybe, start writing a journal that can become a novel? You will be able to pour out yourself into the pages and tell your story. There is no story for invisible people, is there? But you have one that can teach many of us lessons.

Anyway, hope to catch you on FB sometime. Take care.
actually, I had my own friends as well, almost all of whom have drifted away over the past year. they may have been there in the beginning, but now I get "I'm really busy right now, I'll give you a call in a week or so." Over and over. and believe me, I've tried many times to stay connected. and whatever he told our mutual friends definitely led them to ignore me. eventually, the rejection hurts to much to keep trying. believe me, I tried hard to discuss anything except my divorce when I was with them--because that's just tedious. and family? I was an only child, both my parents died long ago, they were never at all close to extended family--and I haven't heard from any of them since my parents' respective funerals.

I tried volunteering someplace on Thanksgiving. Called at least 5 different places. None called me back. I tried hard to "have a plan" for the holiday, but they all fell through.
I'm sorry, honey. There are so many of us in the same boat. I wish I didn't live so far away.
That just sucks, HM. A time like this shows who your true friends are, not so?! They should be ashamed of themselves. I know that a person going through this kind a sitch, doesn't need pity, but just a friendly shoulder to lean on occasionally. I bet there were many times when you were there for your friends.

I just don't know what to say anymore, HM. Perhaps you give off the vibe of being strong and independent, so they feel they are not needed?

Sad to lose contact with blood family, even if they are cousins and other extended family.

Who doesn't need more volunteers? I guess there's a glut since Pres. Obama was elected. Not that that's a bad thing.
I'm sorry. bitter is unattractive. depressed is repulsive. and probably I shouldn't post when I'm feeling this way, but it's more of a vent than looking for a quick fix.

yeah, one find out who one's true friends are at a time like this. and what that tells me is--they're gone. time to start over.

uh--yeah, I spent almost 7 years in pastoral ministry, being there. making sure people weren't alone when they were anguished. walking in when everyone else is walking out. I didn't do it to get something back, you understand, but still...not even wanting a friendly shoulder to lean on, I'd settle for a little company, a cup of coffee together occasionally. and no, had anyone reached out yesterday I would not have talked about how miserable I was, but just lightness, well wishes, thankfulness for them in my life.

contact with blood family--thank goodness for facebook. reconnected with a cousin I didn't know I had. my dad was one of 12, so there are a lot of them out there--but he died in 1967, and my mom in 1978, and we weren't all that close before that. wish we had been, but we weren't.
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I'm sorry. bitter is unattractive. depressed is repulsive. and probably I shouldn't post when I'm feeling this way, but it's more of a vent than looking for a quick fix.

But, all this is human. We cannot be strong, lighthearted all the time. This is just the time to post.

I must say I am thankful for my extended family, even though we are not in touch all the time (and sometimes there are negative issues), and we live far apart for the most part. I am also very lucky that I have 4 children. My older sister always wanted to be an only child. The rest of us siblings annoyed her, and she is a bit of a snob. We grew up as railway kids, so she was somewhat ashamed of our family. We weren't poor (that I know of), but we were just your average blue collar family. But, I think she appreciates us now .. to some extent anyway. I hope. crazy

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yeah, one find out who one's true friends are at a time like this. and what that tells me is--they're gone. time to start over.

Indeed, it is time to start over and that can be a positive thing. Whatever happened to your guy friend (he is a psycho-analyst or something like that?) who lived out of town?

Hope you have a good weekend.
my friend who lives out of town (about 800 miles out of town!) is a wonderful man (college professor, who works extensively with CBT) with his own healing to do. don't know if it's because of that, or if it's just him, but after inviting me "in" and establishing some real emotional intimacy, he pulled further and further away, and told me I was clingy. it became a repeat of my R with xH--waiting for the "real" man to return. with xH I waited about 18 years--and then he left, taking the "real" him to someone else. it became a familiar pain. I went back and forth between trying to be patient and hurting badly, and finally just gave up. maybe the timing was just bad, I don't know. I really have no business being in any kind of relationship right now anyway.
How're you doin' this morning, Hoozh?

Puppy
HM sorry to beat a dead horse but have you looked into the Divorce Care classes? Also when you are alone can you find a church activity to go to? I don;t mean your church and I am not suggesting you have to convert, just go. Maybe enjoy some fellowship and meet some people.
I'm in the middle of one called "Divorce and Beyond." Couldn't find a Divorce Care class that was meeting when I was free, but this one was at a better time for me. It has been helpful, but I keep wanting to take over facilitation--an occupational hazard after leading numerous groups!

I really had been doing rather well until this week, but between knowing my daughter's distress and being unable to help, and feeling so completely abandoned on Thanksgiving, sent me into a tailspin. Obviously I have a long, long way to go in recovering from 2008.
I'm okay, pup. not great, but better than a couple of days ago. I truly wish I could wake up and find the whole holiday thing was over.
I think holidays are huge triggers, Hoozh, and find us not nearly as far along emotionally as we like to think we are sometimes. Had any of your volunteer offers come thru, I think the day itself would have been much better for you, but at night you'd still be in a funk.

I think this is just going to take time, and you're going to have to give it such.

I do wish I was there to give you a HUGE hug! I'm really good at those. smile

Puppy
Quote:
I do wish I was there to give you a HUGE hug! I'm really good at those.

me too, pup!
Hi HM! I saw your city on some reality detective show (I think it was 360 Detective, or something like that). And I thought, hey, I know someone who lives there! laugh We drove through Indianapolis a few years back, but I bet it's changed somewhat. It has a similar circular highway to St. Louis and we slept over at the Red Roof Inn (I think that's what it's called). Not that that is exciting, 'eh! But, it looked like a really nice city.

It must be difficult to not lead these meetings you attend. But, it must also be comforting to have people around you who are going through similar issues and getting help for it. I think special holidays are going to be triggers, especially if your D is not with you. Not much you can do except try to prepare (which you did), but that won't always work.

I also wish I was there to give you a hug, but since I'm not ---- here's a virtual one (((((((((HM))))))))). Not quite the same, 'eh!? crazy

Hope you and D have a lovely weekend and the weather to match it.
How're you doing today?
I think that show might have been "The Shift" about homicide detectives. Actually, I have a friend/acquaintance who's a homicide detective, but she's really normal and laid-back--apparently not intense or dramatic enough to be on TV! The big difference one would notice in driving thru would be the new Colts stadium--the thing is massive. It's a nice city, for the most part. Easily maneuvered, altho more public transit would be welcomed.

Now that I'm back at work, especially after accomplishing a lot of chores around my house, I'm feeling a lot better. Guess I do better with structure and with outside stimuli. D has a big week ahead--lots of choir engagements, busy, busy, busy! She gets to sing during the Nutcracker ballet--always one of my favorite holiday things. If I can stay busy, especially with D13, I should do fine. And that looks like a sure thing! It's when I'm alone that I struggle.
Don't we all.

Glad you're on the emotional mend, Hoozh!

Puppy
thanks, pup! I get by with a little help from my friends.
Just don't walk out on me, if I sing out of tune. ;o)
nah, it'd be music to my ears!
Let's just say that God had me in mind when He called it "a joyful noise." grin
that would make 2 of us! I'm hoping when/if I get to heaven, I'll actually have a voice I won't be ashamed of!
I can sings notes, but out of order, but I still likes to sing! Just not where many people can hear me. Hahaha! We all have our skills and talents, 'eh!

Hope your week is going well, HM! This is my last week at uni --- well, for this semester anyway. laugh
oh, me too! love to sing! I belt it out to the radio when I'm alone in the car and no one can hear me. I'd be mortified if my window was accidentally open, tho!
I am so glad that you are sounding better! Being around others can make you feel better, huh? smile

hugs, kat
oh, definitely. I'm seeing patterns here for sure (duh!) I need to be sure I'm not alone at Christmas.
from oldtimer on Donna's thread:

I haven't seen anyone here who was "left in the dust" because of an OW or OM. The OW and OM made it into the M BECAUSE of the problems in the M, they didn't cause them.

If you really want to continue your Rs with your EX-in-laws, then you have to be a friend to their family. This means NOT wanting XH to have a bad life, NOT wanting him to be in pain, NOT continuing to condemn and judge his current life. As long as you are against XH in the present, then you are no friend to his family. This is why a friendship with you would be taking sides BECAUSE you are opposed to XH. If you aren't opposed to him, if you are detached, if you make his life irrelevant to yours, then his family won't have to take sides by being friends with you, anymore than they'd be taking sides by being friends with me. It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH, that leaves no space for them to be friends with you.

They could deal with: "I think XH should have done things differently when he left our M. Still I wish him well now, though I really prefer not to talk about him at all. I try to mind my own business, ya know?"

They can't deal with: "I think XH should have done things differently when he left our M. He should pay for what he's done. You should hate him and his trollop that ruined my M. They don't deserve to be together, they don't deserve happiness. I wish them both the worst. My misery is their fault. Now, shall we have lunch?"

[yes, i'm sure you would never say such things, but let me assure you that you still communicate that message loud and clear]

As for not having any extended family, I think you said your dad was one of 12 siblings. No doubt you have a ton of extended family. You already found one cousin. Why don't you make finding a dozen relatives your 12 days of Christmas? You could even do an advent calendar. This would be a positive and exciting place to put your energy and start building your OWN support network so that you don't have to rely on one that is designed mainly to support your XH.
_________________________
Best,
Oldtimer
Here :-)

http://www.ancestry.com/

They give a 14-day free trial. I put in my Dad's name and it brought up a bunch of accurate records!
listen, I know you're trying to be helpful with the 2 x 4's, and I truly appreciate your caring enough to post such a thoughtful note. but there are just some inaccuracies...

Quote:
I haven't seen anyone here who was "left in the dust" because of an OW or OM. The OW and OM made it into the M BECAUSE of the problems in the M, they didn't cause them.

yeah, I'm looking long, hard, and critically at my role in the demise of our marriage. however, I will not
take responsibility for xh's midlife crisis, which involved changing jobs, churches, and partners all in 2 months' time. by his own admission, he felt he had "outgrown the marriage like an old overcoat." he has a long history of running from situations that don't feed his narcissistic view of himself, and once I developed boundaries and a sense of self, he outgrew me. Was I perfect? No way. But I wasn't the one who committed adultery.
Quote:
They can't deal with: "I think XH should have done things differently when he left our M. He should pay for what he's done. You should hate him and his trollop that ruined my M. They don't deserve to be together, they don't deserve happiness. I wish them both the worst. My misery is their fault. Now, shall we have lunch?"
I never had the opportunity to say anything like this, nor display the attitude, because the only contact we've had has been one birthday wish and a sympathy note on the death of my SIL's father. No mention of xh in either, except to apologize for the awkwardness of the situation. in so many words, and no more. in the first week, I did contact one of xh's brothers; I thought he had lost his mind and was looking for a bit of an intervention. he was initially very supportive, and maybe 2 emails passed between us before he talked with xh and abruptly ended all communication with me. and I honored his request 100%. I haven't seen nor spoken with other family members--so there's no way to convey a negative attitude.
Quote:
As for not having any extended family, I think you said your dad was one of 12 siblings. No doubt you have a ton of extended family. You already found one cousin.
I haven't had any contact with dad's family since his funeral, which was in 1967 when I was 11. I've found 2 or 3 cousins, one of whom has remained in contact with me. Fortunately it's an unusual last name. yes, I would like to reach out to more of them, but there were only 2 or 3 who returned my notes. And I continue searching for them on the internet.
Quote:
It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH
I don't know where this comes from, but it strikes me as cruel. I simultaneously lost my marriage and my job--and subsequently my support community at church (where I worked). I have reached out; I have tried, and continue to try, to GAL. Like many, I have serious financial difficulties that I'm trying to overcome. My support and financial resources are limited, so I haven't been able to travel, take classes, pursue a degree, pursue new hobbies. I have put my energy into creating a stable home for D13, supporting her as she deals with middle school as well as a deteriorating relationship with her father, making a living (I work 2 jobs, like many on these boards), maintaining my house/yard, healing the grief, growing beyond survival. Not sure what about any of this is making my life about xh. I do come to my thread to vent so that I don't make anyone in my immediate life uncomfortable, and so that I can get it out of my head and pull it together to be a good mother. It was my impression that that is one of the purposes of posting to begin with; do I need to wear a mask here as well?
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama

Quote:
It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH
I don't know where this comes from, but it strikes me as cruel. I simultaneously lost my marriage and my job--and subsequently my support community at church (where I worked). I have reached out; I have tried, and continue to try, to GAL. Like many, I have serious financial difficulties that I'm trying to overcome. My support and financial resources are limited, so I haven't been able to travel, take classes, pursue a degree, pursue new hobbies. I have put my energy into creating a stable home for D13, supporting her as she deals with middle school as well as a deteriorating relationship with her father, making a living (I work 2 jobs, like many on these boards), maintaining my house/yard, healing the grief, growing beyond survival. Not sure what about any of this is making my life about xh. I do come to my thread to vent so that I don't make anyone in my immediate life uncomfortable, and so that I can get it out of my head and pull it together to be a good mother. It was my impression that that is one of the purposes of posting to begin with; do I need to wear a mask here as well?


That WAS cruel. Either that, or ignorant.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


Quote:
I haven't seen anyone here who was "left in the dust" because of an OW or OM. The OW and OM made it into the M BECAUSE of the problems in the M, they didn't cause them.


A vandal might only get into your home because you've left the door unlocked, but the damage he causes is on his head alone. Your negligence doesn't absolve him from his destruction of what is precious to you.

I'm sorry Oldtimer, but I have zero sympathy for OM/OW. They are -- by definition -- PREDATORS. Yes, they usually find their way into dysfunctional marriages, but:

a) Such a marriage deserves an outsider's particular tenderness and respect, not their intervention and destruction; and

b) According to research by Dr. Harley (and others), this is simply untrue in 20-25% of the cases. Harley found that EVEN HAPPY, HEALTHY MARRIAGES can fall prey to the lure of infidelity -- a finding which he said shocked him. It is a myth that all or even "nearly all" marriages which include affairs are dysfunctional, and even dysfunction is no excuse for a unhappy spouse to not say "We need to talk," before they spread their legs for another.

Then again, that's just my opinion.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
Here :-)

http://www.ancestry.com/

They give a 14-day free trial. I put in my Dad's name and it brought up a bunch of accurate records!
thanks.
Quote:
Why don't you make finding a dozen relatives your 12 days of Christmas? You could even do an advent calendar.

A good idea! However, I see the need for HM to vent her feelings here. And, I agree with Puppy ... I have no sympathy for OM/OW. They are predators, unless they are unaware the WAS is married. But one should always try and find these things out.

And the OW in HM's case knew exactly what she was doing. I have no doubt that she will eventually fall prey to HM's ex-husband's 'sacrificing' personality. But, she's not a giver (only a taker, like XH), so it probably won't bother her at all.

Vent away, HM.
thank you.

there's a bit of a morbid fascination for me in wondering what will happen once the love chemicals wear off and these 2 profoundly self-centered people recognize each other for who they really are. no, I don't wish them pain and disaster, only to gain some understanding that their choices have caused great pain for other people--including innocent victims like their children. their decisions have had serious repercussions for others, but they seem to have had no consequences. but I think they're both fairly narcissistic (I know xh is for a fact) and as such, their capacity for empathy is quite limited.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
thank you.

there's a bit of a morbid fascination for me in wondering what will happen once the love chemicals wear off and these 2 profoundly self-centered people recognize each other for who they really are.


Hoozh, I just keep getting this picture of that old "The Far Side" comic in my head. You know, the one where the cows are all grazing, and suddenly one looks up and says to the others: "Wait a minute . . . this is GRASS! We've been eating GRASS!!!"

lmao!!! laugh laugh laugh

Pup
I love the Far Side. Used to use them for teaching aids (for adults!)
HM,

I certainly don't hold you accountable for your XH's MLC. But his actions, his choices are coming from him, one of the partners in the M. It really is not a third party's fault that he left the M. HE is accountable for his choices. Not you, and not OW. As for sympathy for A partners, I don't have any myself either. My concern is that LBSs lay the blame at their feet, when the cause of the dissolution of the M lies elsewhere, and when the changes that will possibly save a marriage primarily lie elsewhere (though of course the A must end for the M to be saved), and MOST IMPORTANT, the changes that will improve the life of an LBS and result in the huge personal growth that is necessary to get someone to a happy life on the other side of all this mess lie VERY far away from placing one's problems at the feet of an A-partner, feeling victimized and powerless, and staying stuck by giving such a person power over your well-being. Thus, it is in my mind hugely unproductive and even damaging no matter where you are in this process to continue to focus on the A, on the OW, especially long after D.

As to your Ex's family, I agree, if you've had no contact with them, then they could hardly form an impression of you. As for why I formed that impression? Because in your vents here, your anger, hurt and bitterness toward your X and toward his family are clear (and certainly understandable). You indicated that in your contact with Ex's family, they either said they couldn't stay in contact or were worried about taking sides. Given you had these conversations, I assumed that you interacted with them. There really isn't any way for a person to hide the kind of pain/anger/bitterness that you feel from people who know them. So, on my assumption that you interacted with them, I concluded that they probably felt it. My mistake, though I'm not sure how they then conveyed their feelings to you.

In any case, if you really haven't interacted with them, are you sure that they are not speaking to you? Though in the long run I really think it is better to look elsewhere to build your support system, you might test things a bit. You could forward an interesting story to someone that they might like, with a "hey, I haven't turned into a Martian! Thought of you when I saw this, hope you and yours are well. Life continues to bring happy surprises to me when least expected, but I miss our chats."

Really, I can't imagine why I suggest that, as I think moving away from EX-in-laws is definitely the direction to go. I guess maybe I think even a small show of friendship from one of them would help you know that your whole life was not a sham. (Yes, I know that feeling well.)

You never know who will turn up when you look for cousins. My Dad found some long lost cousins and a whole family came to our house for a week, lol. (It didn't hurt that we lived withing driving distance of Disney I guess.)

Regarding this line: "It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH" I'm sorry you felt it was cruel, it surely was not intended to be. A couple of things. I'm confused about your response as the quote was about your relationship with EX-in-laws. And, my point was that it is WITHIN YOUR POWER to change the dynamics to allow space for various people to have relationships with you. So, rather than feeling like a VICTIM of the abandoning Ex-in-laws, you should rather feel EMPOWERED as the person who creates the spaces around you for people to enter, or NOT. Again, I really see no reason to make space for the EX-in-laws, I was merely explaining what it would take and trying to show you that it is up to you. That is a far better feeling than feeling like a kicked dog. Now, if you make the space, they still might not come. But trust me, that is a far different feeling to have them avoid you for their own reasons rather than because you are marked all over with the D-conflict. I realize that is not a very good explanation, but hopefully you see what I mean.

"I do come to my thread to vent so that I don't make anyone in my immediate life uncomfortable, and so that I can get it out of my head and pull it together to be a good mother. It was my impression that that is one of the purposes of posting to begin with; do I need to wear a mask here as well?"

Two things:

(1) Your vents are healthy and they make it obvious how you feel. Your pain shows, your anger, your bitterness toward XH and his friend (whatever her actual status is). There is no mistaking them, precisely because you are honest here.

So, I'm not sure why you want to deny that they continue to be real forces in your life. They are there. They affect you daily. They affect your loved ones, no matter how hard you try to shield them. This is all totally understandable. You have damn good reason to feel hurt, betrayed, bitter. Your H SHOULD NOT have treated you as he did. You've experienced great loss. Your life is now very difficult, financially, emotionally, physically. Do I think you should wear a mask here? NO, OF COURSE NOT, and I nowhere suggested such a thing. On the contrary, I think you should wear less of a mask, at least with yourself, in your day to day life, so that you are more aware of how the pain/anger/bitterness are coloring your world.


(2) Given that you are honest here and we see your pain, your bitterness, your hostility, you seem to want us, or at least me, not to acknowledge them. HM, they are really hard to miss. You've come a very long way, you've made huge progress, but you aren't to the other side yet. Do you want us to ignore these things or help you with them? You can get all the cheerleaders here that you want, but these things are hurting you more than you need to hurt. They really are coloring your world and shaping the space you have for relationships. They bled all over Thanksgiving, which despite your initial defensiveness to my last post, you seemed to recognize as you very much changed your whole approach to Thanksgiving in positive ways.

So, basically here you can get posts that can make you feel good about your anger and bitterness, that sadly even encourage them as a coping mechanism (a very effective coping mechanism, but one that keeps you stuck in the long run), you can get posts that provide very important comfort and support to you through your pain; and you can get posts that try to move you forward.

I'm primarily only good at the latter and can't pretend to have any tact. But, I can assure you that I'm only trying to help you, and trust that anything that sounds cruel to you was not intended that way. Probably my intent and meaning are lost between my less-than-perfect delivery to an audience not in a place to hear the message to begin with.

So, I am very sorry to have caused you pain. Timing and delivery are everything, you know?

I hope with a bit of time and space, you'll find that something I've said turns out to be helpful rather than as hurtful as it seems now. I know in my own experience, that was true of the most important things I got from DB. I hated hearing them and thought them cruel until I was at a place where they made all the difference in the world to me and helped me to a much, much better place. Then, all of the sudden they made sense and helped me immensely.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
thank you.

there's a bit of a morbid fascination for me in wondering what will happen once the love chemicals wear off and these 2 profoundly self-centered people recognize each other for who they really are.


Hoozh, I just keep getting this picture of that old "The Far Side" comic in my head. You know, the one where the cows are all grazing, and suddenly one looks up and says to the others: "Wait a minute . . . this is GRASS! We've been eating GRASS!!!"

lmao!!! laugh laugh laugh

Pup
wait a minute--I'm seeing cartoon as "this is GRASS! We've been smoking GRASS!"
BeingMe,

Help me out -- why would you think that I don't think HM should vent here? Why would you think I support the actions of OM/OW? I really can't see where those ideas are coming from...
Quote:
I do come to my thread to vent so that I don't make anyone in my immediate life uncomfortable, and so that I can get it out of my head and pull it together to be a good mother. It was my impression that that is one of the purposes of posting to begin with; do I need to wear a mask here as well?

OT, I got it from H'mama's post, above. I was agreeing with her that she should be able to vent.

And, I did not say you "support the actions of OM/OW." I was merely agreeing with Puppy that they are predators.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I love the Far Side. Used to use them for teaching aids (for adults!)


I used to say that it is a truism that there is nothing in Sales (or in Business, or in Life?) that can't be explained by a Far Side cartoon.

Or maybe a Seinfeld episode. laugh

Puppy
Whew, I thought I was miscommunicating even more than usual!
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
HM,

I certainly don't hold you accountable for your XH's MLC. But his actions, his choices are coming from him, one of the partners in the M. It really is not a third party's fault that he left the M. HE is accountable for his choices. Not you, and not OW. As for sympathy for A partners, I don't have any myself either. My concern is that LBSs lay the blame at their feet, when the cause of the dissolution of the M lies elsewhere, and when the changes that will possibly save a marriage primarily lie elsewhere (though of course the A must end for the M to be saved), and MOST IMPORTANT, the changes that will improve the life of an LBS and result in the huge personal growth that is necessary to get someone to a happy life on the other side of all this mess lie VERY far away from placing one's problems at the feet of an A-partner, feeling victimized and powerless, and staying stuck by giving such a person power over your well-being. Thus, it is in my mind hugely unproductive and even damaging no matter where you are in this process to continue to focus on the A, on the OW, especially long after D.

As to your Ex's family, I agree, if you've had no contact with them, then they could hardly form an impression of you. As for why I formed that impression? Because in your vents here, your anger, hurt and bitterness toward your X and toward his family are clear (and certainly understandable). You indicated that in your contact with Ex's family, they either said they couldn't stay in contact or were worried about taking sides. Given you had these conversations, I assumed that you interacted with them. There really isn't any way for a person to hide the kind of pain/anger/bitterness that you feel from people who know them. So, on my assumption that you interacted with them, I concluded that they probably felt it. My mistake, though I'm not sure how they then conveyed their feelings to you.

In any case, if you really haven't interacted with them, are you sure that they are not speaking to you? Though in the long run I really think it is better to look elsewhere to build your support system, you might test things a bit. You could forward an interesting story to someone that they might like, with a "hey, I haven't turned into a Martian! Thought of you when I saw this, hope you and yours are well. Life continues to bring happy surprises to me when least expected, but I miss our chats."

Really, I can't imagine why I suggest that, as I think moving away from EX-in-laws is definitely the direction to go. I guess maybe I think even a small show of friendship from one of them would help you know that your whole life was not a sham. (Yes, I know that feeling well.)

You never know who will turn up when you look for cousins. My Dad found some long lost cousins and a whole family came to our house for a week, lol. (It didn't hurt that we lived withing driving distance of Disney I guess.)

Regarding this line: "It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH" I'm sorry you felt it was cruel, it surely was not intended to be. A couple of things. I'm confused about your response as the quote was about your relationship with EX-in-laws. And, my point was that it is WITHIN YOUR POWER to change the dynamics to allow space for various people to have relationships with you. So, rather than feeling like a VICTIM of the abandoning Ex-in-laws, you should rather feel EMPOWERED as the person who creates the spaces around you for people to enter, or NOT. Again, I really see no reason to make space for the EX-in-laws, I was merely explaining what it would take and trying to show you that it is up to you. That is a far better feeling than feeling like a kicked dog. Now, if you make the space, they still might not come. But trust me, that is a far different feeling to have them avoid you for their own reasons rather than because you are marked all over with the D-conflict. I realize that is not a very good explanation, but hopefully you see what I mean.

"I do come to my thread to vent so that I don't make anyone in my immediate life uncomfortable, and so that I can get it out of my head and pull it together to be a good mother. It was my impression that that is one of the purposes of posting to begin with; do I need to wear a mask here as well?"

Two things:

(1) Your vents are healthy and they make it obvious how you feel. Your pain shows, your anger, your bitterness toward XH and his friend (whatever her actual status is). There is no mistaking them, precisely because you are honest here.

So, I'm not sure why you want to deny that they continue to be real forces in your life. They are there. They affect you daily. They affect your loved ones, no matter how hard you try to shield them. This is all totally understandable. You have damn good reason to feel hurt, betrayed, bitter. Your H SHOULD NOT have treated you as he did. You've experienced great loss. Your life is now very difficult, financially, emotionally, physically. Do I think you should wear a mask here? NO, OF COURSE NOT, and I nowhere suggested such a thing. On the contrary, I think you should wear less of a mask, at least with yourself, in your day to day life, so that you are more aware of how the pain/anger/bitterness are coloring your world.


(2) Given that you are honest here and we see your pain, your bitterness, your hostility, you seem to want us, or at least me, not to acknowledge them. HM, they are really hard to miss. You've come a very long way, you've made huge progress, but you aren't to the other side yet. Do you want us to ignore these things or help you with them? You can get all the cheerleaders here that you want, but these things are hurting you more than you need to hurt. They really are coloring your world and shaping the space you have for relationships. They bled all over Thanksgiving, which despite your initial defensiveness to my last post, you seemed to recognize as you very much changed your whole approach to Thanksgiving in positive ways.

So, basically here you can get posts that can make you feel good about your anger and bitterness, that sadly even encourage them as a coping mechanism (a very effective coping mechanism, but one that keeps you stuck in the long run), you can get posts that provide very important comfort and support to you through your pain; and you can get posts that try to move you forward.

I'm primarily only good at the latter and can't pretend to have any tact. But, I can assure you that I'm only trying to help you, and trust that anything that sounds cruel to you was not intended that way. Probably my intent and meaning are lost between my less-than-perfect delivery to an audience not in a place to hear the message to begin with.

So, I am very sorry to have caused you pain. Timing and delivery are everything, you know?

I hope with a bit of time and space, you'll find that something I've said turns out to be helpful rather than as hurtful as it seems now. I know in my own experience, that was true of the most important things I got from DB. I hated hearing them and thought them cruel until I was at a place where they made all the difference in the world to me and helped me to a much, much better place. Then, all of the sudden they made sense and helped me immensely.


OT,

That's a thoughtful and compassionate post. I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your point as "cruel." You and I may disagree about some things, but your intent obviously wasn't to inflict cruelty. I get very protective of Hoozh (and some others), as I know a lot about all she's been thru. Hers is a particularly painful story out of a forum from which they are legion.

Puppy
All good pup.
I don't mind saying I hope X and OW crash and burn. HM's X didn't just have an A and dump her, he ruined her financially in the process. He continues to hurt their D. Why does she have to wish them well?!
with all due respect, OT, how much do you know about my sitch?

I would never claim this has been more painful for me than for anyone else. it's excruciating for everyone; I probably have less of a support system than the average poster, but grief is grief and there's no comparing one betrayed LBS's pain to another's.

having said that, tho--I had two very painful betrayals going on simultaneously. as I mentioned, I lost my job just a couple of days before xh dropped the bomb. I was doing full-time ministry, but church politics are just as ugly as any other workplace politics, and I was sabotaged and rumor'd out of my position rather suddenly. Lest you tell me I'm in victim mode again, all I can say is that I refused to compromise my principles and thought my co-workers held to the same standards,but I was wrong and it cost me my position and my ability to be comfortable in that community. I didn't realize we were running a business disguised as a Catholic parish; I was naive. Should'a played hardball if I wanted to stay, but I didn't. So I was looking for a job while dealing with being left, as well as dealing with friends being fed lies and thinking awful things about me. I was grieving losing my husband and family, my friends, my community, my role as a wife and as a pastoral minister. I was in many ways stripped down to the bare essentials, and am trying really hard to put myself back together in a way that makes more sense.

xh was very atypical--he never glanced back once he left. there was no db'ing, except for my own benefit. I simply didn't exist for him any more. I found out in the first week that this was not xh's first affair--he claimed there were several over the years. Silly me--he traveled for work, and I assumed he was the same man I married and valued fidelity, but many of those weren't business trips as it turns out.

After 12 years of marriage and ministry, xh decided to change denominations so that he could be ordained. I supported that for him, altho he couldn't leave the Catholic church without continuing to bash everything it--and I--did. He was in the process of discernment for priesthood in the Episcopal church when he left (and continues moving toward priesthood, with full support of his pastor and ordination committee). A couple of months before the bomb, he changed hospital systems, having been recruited to one of the larger chaplaincy education programs in the country. We were comfortable financially for the first time; I had been the breadwinner--often the sole breadwinner--for the first half of our marriage. What I didn't realize is that he encountered an old girlfriend, who was a NICU nurse at one of his hospitals. He got himself assigned to that unit, became a fixture there, and in May came in on midnight shift to bless nurses' hands (a Nurses' Week tradition) and something shifted. A week or so later, she approached him, knowing he was married and had a child, and told him she was very interested in renewing their prior relationship but "didn't do affairs." Two days later he dropped the bomb and our marriage was over. He didn't admit to an affair--because, as he saw it, it wasn't because he left before they f*cked. In that first week I was convinced he had lost it, contacted a friend, his brother, and his pastor to talk with him and had no doubt that they would. However, they all declined--and I was stunned. He eventually talked with them all, and I have no idea what he said but it certainly wasn't that he ended our marriage to be with one of his nurses.

I didn't talk with any of his other family at the time, because it's an enmeshed Italian group with significant dysfunction--and when the brother I approached did a 180 within days, I didn't see much point in trying to talk to the others. As I said, I sent a sympathy note when my SIL's father died (xh did the fineral, btw)--no response. Also sent an email promising my prayers when BIL started treatment for chemo--got a terse "thanks." And I got an email from another SIL on my birthday--just a 2-liner, saying she hadn't wanted to contact me because she didn't want to take sides, but Happy Birthday. I just replied a brief "thanks, I miss you guys." period. I haven't actually spoken with or seen any of them. Sent Christmas cards, didn't receive any. Actually, to them, I probably have turned into a Martian; I have no idea what he's told them about why the marriage ended, for all I know he said it was what I wanted. Opening up space for relationship? Unlikely--If I got no Christmas cards, one-word replies to any other reaching out, that space just doesn't exist--they have to open a bit of space themselves. Aside from missing my nieces and nephews terribly, I've decided--as you suggest--that it's best to move away from trying to remain "family." Those relationships are dead, and yes--I do grieve them.

I was doing relatively well, actually--aside from loneliness--until xh began escalating his pressure on D13 to spend time and form relationships with the A partner and her family. She feels very uncomfortable--and yes, she figured out there was an affair probably before I did. She's upset that he seems to prioritize his relationships with them over her (and yes, her reasons for thinking so are valid, don't want to take up still more space here), feels left out, feels like she's a built-in babysitter and housecleaner for the woman. And she literally had anxiety attacks because she didn't want to spend time with xh and--what shall I call her? the woman-he-loves or something?--on Thanksgiving, especially didn't want to go to her family's home because there's a lot of tension between the mama and xh. It was very hard to watch her go through this, agonizing about what she could do to protect her boundaries, have panic attacks. It also triggered my grief to know that the woman-he-loves would be at the family table at Thanksgiving, spending time with the folks I called family for almost 20 years.

Yes, I will freely admit to pain, anger, bitterness--these are all part of grief. It isn't a pretty process. Nor is it a linear one. Just when we think we've gotten close to "acceptance" there's a trigger or two, and we move into one of those more inconvenient stages. Nor is it a good thing to stuff those feelings and tell myself I shouldn't be feeling them. I don't deny that, especially last week, I was deep into pain and anger and loss. I tell you what, tho--I wallowed while I was alone. When my daughter came back home and it was time to be mamabear again, that's just what I did. She debriefed about the holiday, we talked, I validated her feelings, did all that stuff.

No, I don't expect those who read my posts to deny my ugly feelings. I didn't ask for cheerleaders. I would hope, tho, that when someone swings as heavy a 2 x 4 as you have, that you would do so from a place of knowing my situation from the beginning, not just what you may have read last week. I don't ask for validation of my victimhood--but perhaps how others who have been mired in the pain climbed out. Especially I am interested in hearing how to help my daughter through this; I do not think it is emotionally healthy for her to have this relationship forced upon her when she knows the background, I don't think she should be forced to accept the woman her father left his family for and be her friend. Yes, chances are good and they'll marry. And she will have to deal with her. But she's being forced towards more intimacy with someone she sees as having contributed to devastating her world--and at 13, that's a very unhealthy expectation of her. That is my primary concern.
Quote:
these things are hurting you more than you need to hurt.
please tell me--how much do I need to hurt? yes, the pain bled all over Thanksgiving--but I grieved it, then I pulled myself together for my daughter. What else would you have suggested I do with Thanksgiving?

I do appreciate your thoughtful responses, and I apologize for being defensive.
Well HM, you truly have me at a loss. I'm not sure what your history is meant to show me. I have no reason to doubt that you experience deep pain, that you've experienced deep betrayal. But, certainly I can respect your wishes that I not post to you without having read your entire history, which I surely will not do.

My last attempt to help, promise. Surely XH projects his life experience and feelings onto D13 and thus has unhealthy expectations with respect to how she should feel/behave. Don't forget that you might as well, unintentionally, even when you are best-intentioned.

Ciao.
Hoooooooooooooooosier...
I haven't posted to you in a long time but wanted to send you out a hug.

I think that what OT is trying to say is that is seems as though you are stuck somewhere...

you had a marriage that, you admitted, was very one-sided and you have stated that you feel as though he was always very selfisha nd narcissistic (sp?) and a job that had loved but with people who seem a might bit hypocritical

You have grieved very long for some things that perhaps weren't all they were cracked up to be.
I understand this
I did this too, as we all probably have done

the problem I see is that you seem to be grieving for something you wish you had had instead of what you actually had. In doing this you are downplaying anything good that might be coming your way

it's like an eeyore attitude...you know the "it's OK...my life sucks but don't worry about me...I'm making it through" kind of feeling that is being projected.

When youhave this, it stops you from noticing all the potential about the new stuff that has HAD to happen in your life

you aren't in the ministry profession anymore but you do have a job at the school...you can't compare the two because they are so different apples to oranges but just because you had apples for 20 years doesn't mean oranges aren't delicious...instead of mourning the apples indefinately, try enjoying the oranges...nope, they aren't apples that's for sure...they aren't crunchy with beautiful red outsides and crisp insides...oranges are softer and juicier and have some tang.

besides...every apple you ate in those 20 years wasn't a perfectly delectable honeycrisp or zeststar...some were mushy and you had to cut the rotten parts off...some were windfalls and some weren't even fit for eating and you had to throw them away...don't glamorize the apples. Some were delicious but all weren't and just because they were doesn't mean the oranges can't be

it does suck to see our kids have to deal with this stuff but a great way to help them is to let them know that life can be beautiful even if it is different.

When LSS left, he cleared out all our moneya nd left we with months of bills that I had thought were paid but weren't...thousands of dollars gone....I also lost my job and had 2 little boys that he even took the money from their piggy bank from!!!

We pull through
and
we can pull through with joy

there are hard and ugly and gross spots that stop us up but if we concentrate on lookingbehind us, mourning all we have lost, we miss the beauty ahead of us

it is a choice
a tough one
one that requires hard work and training

i used to keep a gratitude journal and those 1st days it was stuff like
didn't collapse for more than an hour
made it out of bed before noon
ate a meal

then it was
applied for 50 jobs today
prayed thanks instead of asking
slept the whole night

now my blessings are so apparent to me that I walk around in thanks everyday...

my life is not how I imagined it
my life is not how it was "supposed" to be with my ex

my life is so much more
more than I knew to imagine
more than I knew to dream

and
it isn't all roses
there are bumps
valleys
deep depths

but because I practiced finding joy...I can see the fact that even in those depths there are things to be grateful for

it is that that I hear in Oldtimers posts
that looking behind
that constant state of mourning
the poor me

you believe their emails were tense and curt...
you believe you chase people off
you post and are hurt that a response isn't forthcoming
it is the poor me, nobody likes me, there must be something wrong with me

there is NOTHING wrong with you
you are a person whose confidence and security was shattered
but
that is not all there is of you

there are many other things that you allow to be overshadowed
there is the woman who completely changed professions...scary...daunting...hugely stressful BUT YOU did it
there is the woman who raises a daughter singlehandedly...hard...tough BUT YOU do it
there is the woman who can make food appear from no money...magical...outstanding BUT YOU have done it

there is magic and grace and wonder and excitement and unlimited possibilities in you and for you but only in the forward looks, they are not kept in the backward glances
Sorry; I'm not seein' Eeyore at all (btw, LOVE Eeyore!)

I'm seeing more Piglet; a very small animal who's maybe just a little terrified of the jagulars in the trees because they always shout "Halllooooo!" . . . and when you look up . . . they drop on you.

Having kids (and their mothers) physically threaten you, and having to deal with head lice, kids bringing guns to school, giving out 300+ flu shots in one day with no help, etc. -- sorry, I'm not seeing even BAD "oranges" here, much less "delicious" ones. Yes, Hoozh's relationship with her daughter is a beautiful orange, despite the fact that her husband went scorched-earth on their orchard. But despite struggling in the other areas of her life, I've actually been amazed that HM has been able to remain so POSITIVE around her daughter??

No, I just think that sometimes "it is what it is." No rhyme, no reason -- it just IS. And we have to deal with that.

Puppy
Fig,

Lol, now you see! smile But remember how mean you used to think I was.... wink How's the wee thee????
Wow, OT. I don't quite know how to respond to this. First, I apologize for apparently wasting your time with my history. What it was meant to show you was, ummmm, my history, about which you have made many inaccurate assumptions and subsequent judgements. I never said that you should read my entire history, but that you hit pretty hard for not knowing the facts of the situation; if you make such judgements based upon inaccurate assumptions you are more likely to cause damage--and certainly less likely to be helpful. So I was providing you with more complete information than you had been operating with--such as ex-in-law relationships, OW history. There are aspects to my situation that, according to some of the long-term board "experts" among us, are quite atypical. Sorry the information I provided was superfluous.

I'm not sure what you mean with your last sentence--do you see me projecting my life experience and feelings onto my daughter? If so, how? She is remarkably articulate and in touch with her feelings for someone her age--having grown up with parents who were doing pastoral work. And she's pretty direct in telling me how she feels. However, projection being an ineffective coping strategy sometimes manifesting during stress, I am open to seeing how I am doing so, in order to stop it.

I apologize for my Eeyore-like posts. I operate, generally, more like Kanga or Owl, but when I feel the uglier stages of grief--and yes, they do get triggered by holidays for most people--this is where I come to get the feelings out. I had considered it a safe place to do that. I feel now that expressing non-positive feelings here is unacceptable and subject to inaccurate analysis and judgement re: martyrdom, "poor me," and general over-self-absorption. For some people who are insistent upon their own "rightness," acceptance is conditional. But I'm going to close with one of the golden rules of working with the grieving: don't judge someone else's grief process.
Just to clarify...it's not so much the ministry job I miss--although I did love the work. It's that most of my friends were at that parish, and I miss my friends. Some drifted away, but many seem to have been taken in by the "spin"
that surrounded my leaving. Yes, those who were real friends should know me better than that. But I miss my friends, I miss being part of that community. And when I'm feeling lonely or disconnected, I miss them more.
HM, I didn't feel at all as though you were wasting my time. There was no hostility in my post. I felt no anger toward you, no resentment for the length of your post. It seemed to me that your post was meant to convince me that you've been treated poorly and experienced great pain. Of that I have and had no doubt. I also understood that you felt I shouldn't post to you without reading your other threads. Apparently I misunderstood your message. But that seems to happen a lot between us.

For instance, I expressed quite clearly that I thought it was very healthy for you to share your feelings here. Yet you hear otherwise in my words. To me, these continuing mis-communications show that for whatever reason, we don't communicate well. And given you find my efforts painful and unhelpful, I feel it is best for me to stop them. The conversation just isn't resulting in productive dialog. It isn't working for you, so it isn't working for me.

My aim is only to help people. I don't care if you like me. But I don't want to cause anyone pain, especially to no useful end. That's all I seem to do for you. We aren't a good fit. It's OK. I don't take that to say anything poorly about you or me. It's just not working. So, I'll stop. Always a good strategy :-)
puppy...I love Eeyore too...he is my favorite and one the little poopsie loves too...

HM
I wasn't even implying for you not to express the anger and frustration and hurt you feel

I was merely suggesting that instead of focusing on that to try to add a different spin

and puppy
there are so many blessings to the job the HM has
I too worked in a school where there were guns and fights and pregnant 14 year olds and threats and drugs and a seemingly never ending pit of despair

i loved that job
because in ways small and large I KNEW I made a difference
I mattered

The school I work in now has kids from intact families
they eat supper together
and
I love it for many different reasons

but

that inner city
alternative school
with violence and pain and rawness
it had sharp beauty
it had daily triumphs
the blessings for me where easier to find I guess

I could see all I had...
all I could offer...

in great ugliness are some of the most beautiful oranges
you just need to be willing to dig a bit to find them

that's all I am suggesting
look for those oranges
reach out to things that you normally might not
be willing to dig through the mucky oranges

(I never thought you were wicked mean OT...sometimes the truth is hard to hear)
Quote:
the problem I see is that you seem to be grieving for something you wish you had had instead of what you actually had. In doing this you are downplaying anything good that might be coming your way


ding-ding-ding!! Fig has it! I think that is one of the biggest steps so many of us LBS's have had to take...realizing that what we are mourning may never have actually existed. We mourn what we dreamed about...the perfect marriage of our dreams. But so many of us were married to narcissistic "takers" and we never had that dream marriage, or anything even remotely close. And what the WAS spouse now has is not something we would want either. So where does that leave us? Hurt, but able to recover and live the lives we dream of!
((Mama)) I get it babe, I really do. We've talked about this. I'm meeting someone for coffee today from my former church, the one that ADORES my Hus and cannot believe he would EVER do anything remotely un-Godly. I will be polite, but a little cautious, too. She was formerly one of my dearest friends, for over 15 years.
I spent most of this year in bed. Wallowing. Angry that my friends abandoned me in my hour of need.
What I should have done was hang on to the two or three people who have the emotional intelligence to help me figure out what my new life should look like.
I did a good job of dumping the toxic people, but not a good job of surrounding myself with healthy ones. I just isolated. Hurt my Sis, the strongest girl I know, very badly in the process. Which sets up a pattern that is really, really hard to break. Fortunately, we have worked it out.

What's the goal, honey?

I know, our first choice would be that a bolt of lightning comes down and takes out your X and the new honey. Probably not going to happen.
I prayed that God would just take me to heaven today. Every morning, for months. Not too healthy. If you are having similar thoughts, I'm worried.
But if your goal is to find peace, reconciliation, and love...you're going to have to get the poison out of your system.
I'm in the alt for 'ya. Oh, and I have a new thread.
love, Goldey XoXoX
Maybe it's just me, but where are you guys seeing the "poison" and the "wallowing?"

I'm not seeing it. I see sadness, and resentment, but at healthy levels considering what's happened to Hoozh and her family. Other than that, I mostly see a Mamabear, looking after her cub, and grieving when it's hurting.

Puppy
I agree with Puppy. I don't see it either. I think most of us have our angry/venting moments here; our WAS can sometimes be extremely frustrating! I do the same in some of my posts. I vent here, and I think this should be a safe place to do so and then go on in our daily lives where we can be more positive and supportive for our families.

Sometimes I see people posting here when someone gets angry and venting and seem to suggest something like just get over it, but I think anger is natural and good sometimes to let out in a healthy constructive way: here on the boards or exercising or whatever. We've most all of us here been through this and understand that we all have our good moments and our not-so-good moments. I understand ot's point, I think, that we don't want to wallow in anger, and agree with that, but I don't think that is the case for hoozh...
Puppy, Karen, Mama: I guess I could have written that last post better. Any wallowing or poison referred to my sitch, and mine alone. And I did spend most of the year wallowing, and poisoning myself.
Mama, when I read what you posted, it seemed that you were in the same place you were last December. I made an assumption that you were stuck, and that's my bad.
My apologies for not recognizing the venting for what it was.
love, Goldey
venting is a wonderful tool and one we all use, here or in real life or both...

My assuptions on grieving for something that we wished we had had instead of what we actual had I guess came from the posts where HM has suggested that her husband was narcissitic.

there is venting some healthy anger
but
i guess I don't feel anger coming from HM

I feel sadness and despair

like her post in asking what people's suggestions were for what she should do for thanksgiving

then no one responded right away

and her next post started with something like
I guess even here I am invisiable (I am paraphrasing here but you get the idea)

My feeling is that this isn't so much about the divorce per say anymore but more about a feeling of helplessness, like there is nothing she can do to feel better or to become visable or to matter

this is where I see the unhealthy bend

this is where I am worried

anger is good
sadness is even good
despair is not

forgive me if I am misguided here...it just seems like more than sadness at the turn of events but a general feeling of hopelessness...like an "i am just continuing on because I have a daughter but if I didn't I would curl up and die and when she isn't in the nearby vicinity I do sort of curl up and die and think about how invisible I am and how my life is not how I wanted it and how nothing good is in it..."

this is concerning to me and again...perhaps I am off base...that happens frequently too

I was merely trying to say that while a part of our life changes it does not die...it isn't the end just because that part ended...sometimes things end so that something better can begin but we won't be open to that if we are in constant mourning for what we lost
Wow! Lots of comments about of what H'mama feels. Well, let me put mine in, if I haven't already. I got the impression this last little while, that she was hit by a holiday where she would normally be a busy person, visiting family, etc. She felt lonely, because D went to XH. I don't feel despair, just sadness for what is lost, but starting to move past it. I think, also, still a little angry, but so was I 18 months into the cr@p, even now I get a little angry, 4 years on. Such waste. I would be particularly angry finding that he had been cheating throughout the M. H'mama could've left a long time ago and not wasted so much precious time on a man who didn't deserve her.

I grieved (and still do) for the M I had in the earlier years, and is gone now, even though I am still with my H. I bet H'mama feels the same to some degree.

I hope you're having a nice Sunday, H'mama.
Fig,

I understand what you're saying. I did see what you describe just recently, but I think that was cuz of the holidays. Maybe it's cuz I communicate more with Hoozh throughout the year (in alt) that I have seen more positives than wallowing coming from her.

Puppy
true enough Puppy...

I just came to express concern for what I thought was a dangerous place to be in....

as I have said,
I could be wrong

it just struck me as a scary place
and
one that is not necessary to be at

I hope your weekend is going well HM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Fig,

I understand what you're saying. I did see what you describe just recently, but I think that was cuz of the holidays. Maybe it's cuz I communicate more with Hoozh throughout the year (in alt) that I have seen more positives than wallowing coming from her.

Puppy

Goldey likes this.
My plan was to write a bit more than this, but it's been busy and right now I need some fairly specific advice. My former SIL's mother is in the hospital and apparently dying; sounds as if they're declining aggressive treatment. xSIL drove in from out of town by herself to be here. My inclination is to stop up and visit briefly, offer my prayers, whatever. Of course, no discussion re:xH. Hospital visits I'm very good and comfortable with, used to do it for a living. Any thoughts?
Have you maintained contact with the former SIL?
I think it would be a nice gesture to stop by...hug, card, small snack for her while she is visiting with her mom so she doesn't have to go to the snack bar...
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Have you maintained contact with the former SIL?
I got an email from her on my birthday--something along the lines of "I haven't been in touch because I didn't want to take sides, but hope you have a happy birthday." That's all.
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
I think it would be a nice gesture to stop by...hug, card, small snack for her while she is visiting with her mom so she doesn't have to go to the snack bar...
that's sort of what I was thinking--brief visit, hug. in and out. her mom was often present at our family gatherings. there won't be tons of family around, which makes it a bit more comfortable.

last year, when other SIL's father passed away, I didn't go to the calling or the funeral (which xH did) because they were very direct about not wanting to hear from me, and I thought my presence would not be much of a comfort. it was also a bit "fresher" than this is.
I'I'm with Donna.

Puppy
OK, so here's what happened. I decided that a brief visit was "the right thing to do." And since I've done a ton of hospital visits in my career, I trust myself to know when to leave (not always an obvious thing, as I learned the hard way).

I went to visit after work today. SIL wasn't there, but her sister was, and their dad; their mom was awake, seemed relatively comfortable but obviously not doing well. Mom recognized me before anyone else did, and I held her hand for a few moments, promised prayers from Clare and I, greeted her husband, and walked out with the sister who was headed to the restroom. My SIL had done the night shift, was at her daughter's here in town resting. I stayed about 8 minutes, tops; talked briefly with the sister about our daughters, and left. It was okay. Didnt make anyone uncomfortable, did the right thing, and got out. ICU isn't the place for a prolonged visit under almost any circumstances.

I didn't feel too terribly nauseated as I was headed up to the room; must be making some progress.
((HM)) You did the right thing. That's grace, plain and simple. Can't go wrong when you listen to the Big Guy upstairs. love, Goldey
Thanks. I would have had less self-respect if I hadn't gone to visit the lady. Some things must outweigh awkwardness.

I'm including something here from Alan Wolfelt, who is one of the current experts on grief work. No, this isn't a grief forum, but it is something that we deal with quite a bit, and hope to grow from. It's about being a companion rather than a "fixer" of other people's guilt and pain; it's one of the things I also based my pastoral ministry around.

1.Companioning is about honoring the spirit; it is not about focusing on the intellect.
2.Companioning is about curiosity; it is not about expertise.
3.Companioning is about learning from others; it is not about leading.
4.Companioning is about walking alongside; it is not about leading.
5.Companioning is about being still; it is not about frantic movement forward.
6.Companioning is about discovering the gifts of sacred silence; it is not about filling every painful moment with words.
7.Companioning is about listening with the heart; it is not about analyzing with the head.
8.Companioning is about bearing witness to the struggles of others; it is not about directing those struggles.
9.Companioning is about being present to another person’s pain; it is not about taking away the pain.
10.Companioning is about respecting disorder and confusion; it is not about imposing order and logic.
11.Companioning is about going to the wilderness of the soul with another human being; it is not about thinking you are responsible for finding the way out.

So perhaps this is my bias in perspective, but since no one her is an expert--and yet we're all had far more expertise than we ever wanted in all of this--it seemed appropriate to share. Use it or not as you feel appropriate.
You did the right thing, H'mama! And the text from Alan Wolfelt is right on the money. If only we all can take heed of such good advice.
Hoozh,

That's really good stuff, and made me think. I think us men, especially, are natural "fixers," being the Martians that we are. It's hard for us NOT to offer something specific, some "expertise," to a situation.

I have seen others post sometimes on the boards something like the following, and I think it's good from time-to-time:

"So-and-so, are you just looking to VENT, or are you wanting our specific advice? How can we help?" -- or similar. Or some posters will start some of their posts with "VENT" notation, sometimes coupled with a "not necessarily looking for advice." In fact, some posters' entire body of stuff on the forums is venting, and they've said that they specifically DON'T want advice -- just "support." (Poet comes to mind, but there are others).

I think this is all perfectly fine.

Even in conversing with you in the alt., I find there are times when I try to be Advisor, and times I try to be Companion. Some of us are better at one than at the other, and some of us have a hard time toggling back and forth between the two. Our signals can get crossed and we can clash, when someone is looking for the One, and they get the Other.

Puppy
Pup, you must have some insight or intuition or you read me well, because you generally seem to get it right!

Over the past week I've been seking out some of the stuff I wrote or read when I was doing ministry--just had the urge to do so. I honestly believe that was a period of time when I was my most authentic and best self and when I reconnect with some of those things, I see how much I have shrunk and withered over the past 18 months. So much of what happened in May '08 seemed to challenge my reality and my sense of self, and I've been looking at myself in funhouse mirrors ever since. But I'm getting back in touch with the "me" I liked, the "me" I worked years to get to. No point in throwing it all out the window, baby/bathwater-like; no need to completely re-invent. I have enough life experience to excavate the better parts, dust 'em off and take another look at how they fit. Like old dresses found in an attic trunk, some may no longer fit, some may no longer be flattering, some may just fall apart when exposed to the sunlight--but some remain a perfect fit, remind me of wonderful memories, and I can look at myself in them and feel beautiful. Interesting process. I think that for awhile I had misplaced that trunk, then couldn't find the key. But now I'm enjoying the rediscovery. I've always kinda liked vintage fashion!
oh, and pup--yeah, I fully agree with what you said. sometimes you want advice, sometimes guidance, sometimes just support. I threw this thing up here because it's one way of offering support--not the only way--but it gives what I have found to be a good framework for "walking with."
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves like locked rooms and like books that are written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will find them gradually, without noticing it, and live along some distant day into the answer. ~Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Hmmm; sounds a lot like DBing, to me! grin
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Hmmm; sounds a lot like DBing, to me! grin


Rilke was ahead of his time in many things!
A few weeks have passed since Thanksgiving, which I think was a new low point for me. The holiday made me revisit a lot of grief--but the whole reason for the revisiting is working thru the losses from a more current perspective. This is why grief is not a linear process, but more of a cyclical one.

So having said that, here's what I've learned in the "working thru."

First of all, I've been trying to figure out what I contributed to my own misery in the marriage, and to its ultimate failure. While I consider that that there's no excuse for serial adultery, my pattern of ignoring my own needs made me bitter and resentful--especially when the end result was that becoming smaller and less "troublesome" didn't really make him love me. Living for so long with someone so narcissistic, I gradually stopped expecting that he'd care about my well-being. In doing that, I essentially taught him how to treat me. And the less I asked of him, the less he gave. I think this solves the mystery for me of why he is so completely different in his current relationship than he was in the marriage--she isn't content to disappear, she in fact is almost as self-serving as he is, and her needs come first. He's in the position I was in. He has learned about horses, he does heavy maintenance at her farm when he wouldn't even change a lightbulb in our house, his $2000 worth of drums (a big bone of contention between us) still sit in my house because he's lost interest in them. She's taught him that he must earn her love. I gave it to him sacrificially, and he came to expect it, and like most entitlements it was quite taken for granted. I realized this at some point in the marriage, and began doing things that fulfilled me--and it's when he pulled away emotionally. It was too much of a change, it was essentially too late. I will need to have enough self-worth to recognize, acknowledge and honor my own needs--and it's something I need to learn to do now. If I were to enter another relationship before learning this, it would end up similarly disastrous, I imagine. It's a FOO thing--children in alcoholic homes learn to deny their needs to survive; I've unlearned many other things, but this one seems to be my Achilles' heel.

The other thing I've learned at new levels is that, yes--I am grieving as much or more for lost dreams and hopes than for reality. It was not a great marriage, there are a lot of painful memories through the years. Idealizing is part of grief, and I think I spent a lot of time idealizing him and the relationship, both before and after he left. And grief over lost dreams is very valid--but it's different. I've recognized at some level that I would probably never have left, and it would probably never have improved to the level of my perception. And while it would have been much better if exH had tried harder (not in his capacity to do) or at least have been honest/honorable in his leaving (which would have been off-script) it would not have resulted in such shock and awe for D and myself. However, ultimately I probably should be grateful at some level that he ended the marriage. I kept waiting for the guy who woo'd me to return--kept thinking if I was just good enough to deserve it he'd love me. And that's just not a good way to live, or to model for a daughter.

As for his family--well, it is what it is. I will miss them at times, and they may want to reach out to me at some point. But they're not crucial to my well-being or my sense of who I am or who I can be.

Hope this is helpful for someone. If not, it's just my processing, and it helps me to put it in words. I feel much more solid, much more ready to move into the Christmas season without the pain I experienced at Thanksgiving.
I can identify with you, H'mama! I am still waiting for ... 'I don't know'. You are on your way to healing, and that brings good days, and bad.

Take care.
My dear Hoozh,

That is as insightful and introspective of a post (or any other correspondence) as I have EVER seen from you, and you've communicated a lot since I've known you.

I'm exhausted at the moment, and can hardly keep my eyes open, but I will say that -- based on what you have shared about yourself and your marriage -- I don't think I can disagree with ANY of what you've written here. I think it "rings true," and it's a good thing that you're able to identify your role in your past relationship dysfunction.

You're a pretty amazing lady, Hoozhawhatsit. smile

Puppy
Mama, that was one great post.
If it did nothing but help you reflect, it would have been enough. I suspect that your words are quite comforting to those who are grieving this holiday season.
I invited a newly divorced Dad over for dinner Christmas Eve, when he admitted he was going to be alone this year. Our kids are friends, and it's been a pretty awful year for the whole clan. Kids will be with Mom, and while I was friends with both, sometimes you just have to do the right thing.
So there's an extra place at Goldey's table, if you have nowhere else to go for Christmas.
Oh, and Mama, I'm having a virtual slumber party Saturday night on my thread, hope you can come by. Peace.
Quote:
my pattern of ignoring my own needs made me bitter and resentful--especially when the end result was that becoming smaller and less "troublesome" didn't really make him love me. Living for so long with someone so narcissistic, I gradually stopped expecting that he'd care about my well-being. In doing that, I essentially taught him how to treat me. And the less I asked of him, the less he gave.

What great insight! I thnk this is such an important lesson. I heard that phrase in the past, but never got it until about 6 months after the separation. If we expect less, we get less. I sure did.
I guess another thing that I learned through the divorce is how to expect more, and while X may not learn to give more, I no longer accept less. I taught him how to walk all over me when we were married, but I don't allow it anymore....and that leaves him a bit angry, but that is his problem!

Quote:
The other thing I've learned at new levels is that, yes--I am grieving as much or more for lost dreams and hopes than for reality. It was not a great marriage, there are a lot of painful memories through the years. Idealizing is part of grief, and I think I spent a lot of time idealizing him and the relationship, both before and after he left. And grief over lost dreams is very valid--but it's different.

So very well put! I think a lot of us have fallen into that grief. Looking back realistically my marriage was not good, and I was very unhappy. But I still wish we could have worked to be happy in the marriage, at the very least for the sake of our kids.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
I can identify with you, H'mama! I am still waiting for ... 'I don't know'. You are on your way to healing, and that brings good days, and bad.

Take care.
Thanks, BeingMe. I think if you figure out what you're waiting for, you can begin seeking it elsewhere--somewhere safe and healthy, of course. Once I was able to put words to this--"he just isn't capable of much compassion, of much support," it freed me to help myself rather than sit around full of despair. And it ended up being a dealbreaker in a way--becoming less emotionally dependent upon exH took the attention off him, and it had to be "all about him." Depending upon the issue, it may not be a dealbreaker for you, and you can hopefully just move on from expecting something from him that he can't give, and focus upon what he can.

As for good days and bad ones--yeah, it's true that there are more good days as time goes on, the bad ones don't linger, and while they may be just as deeply bad (as Thanksgiving was for me), you begin to recognize that feeling isn't permanent, but is inviting you to wisdom.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
My dear Hoozh,

That is as insightful and introspective of a post (or any other correspondence) as I have EVER seen from you, and you've communicated a lot since I've known you.

I'm exhausted at the moment, and can hardly keep my eyes open, but I will say that -- based on what you have shared about yourself and your marriage -- I don't think I can disagree with ANY of what you've written here. I think it "rings true," and it's a good thing that you're able to identify your role in your past relationship dysfunction.

You're a pretty amazing lady, Hoozhawhatsit. smile

Puppy

Awwwww, Pup! It's people like you who keep me going, literally. The funny thing is that none of these realizations is new for me, but this may be the first time I've written it all down together, and they continue to sink in to deeper levels and in a more cohesive way. I feel like I process and process and process and get lost in my head sometimes, and at times I've been so focused upon getting to that kernel of truth that will free me from self-destructive patterns that I push too hard. Unfortunately, these things take time and not just effort or will to accomplish! Thanks for the affirmation and support--always.
Originally Posted By: goldeylox
Mama, that was one great post.
If it did nothing but help you reflect, it would have been enough. I suspect that your words are quite comforting to those who are grieving this holiday season.
I invited a newly divorced Dad over for dinner Christmas Eve, when he admitted he was going to be alone this year. Our kids are friends, and it's been a pretty awful year for the whole clan. Kids will be with Mom, and while I was friends with both, sometimes you just have to do the right thing.
So there's an extra place at Goldey's table, if you have nowhere else to go for Christmas.
Oh, and Mama, I'm having a virtual slumber party Saturday night on my thread, hope you can come by. Peace.
I hope it is helpful to someone else. It's not a pretty process (a friend once made an analogy to making sausage in your brain!) but hopefully it ends up pretty tasty!

Great thing, inviting a newly divorced dad to Christmas. Just remember to do it next year too--people remember to include you the first year, but the second year you tend to become invisible, and you're really still in the process of putting your life back together and still need the support of friends.

I'll definitely stop by the slumber party! Doing the Mom Taxi thing that evening, of course, but I'm sure I can drop in! Thanks for the invite.
Thanks, BND. I've long heard that phrase about teaching others how to treat us too, and even knew I was doing it while in the midst of it. I think the hard part is unlearning patterns and finding new alternatives to knee-jerk emotional reactions. At least it is for me.

There are such huge life lessons to be learned from going thru a divorce; unfortunately I had to learn them twice because I missed something the first time around. But it would be such a shame to waste all this pain and not come out wiser and better for it. Yes, I also wish we could have worked it out for the sake of my D13, but at this point I'm not sure I could ever have salvaged a real relationship from the levels of narcissism on his part and self-doubt on mine. We got involved too soon after my first divorce, when I was far too vulnerable to be in a position to expect much of anything. I did a lot of work, but I'm not sure I gave it time to mature in me.
Quote:
But it would be such a shame to waste all this pain and not come out wiser and better for it. Yes, I also wish we could have worked it out for the sake of my D13, but at this point I'm not sure I could ever have salvaged a real relationship from the levels of narcissism on his part and self-doubt on mine. We got involved too soon after my first divorce, when I was far too vulnerable to be in a position to expect much of anything. I did a lot of work, but I'm not sure I gave it time to mature in me.


I doubt mine could have been salvaged either, but primarily because I don't think he will ever acknowledge his own issues. He chose to blame me for all the problems and find someone else who would validate him.

I worry about getting into another relationship and falling into the same pattern. I guess that is why I run whenever anyone comes too close. crazy
Quote:
I've long heard that phrase about teaching others how to treat us too, and even knew I was doing it while in the midst of it.


I had heard it, but it never made sense to me. I couldn't fathom that my reactions were allowing him to treat me the way he did. That by giving in and not addressing issues I was allowing him to become a bully. Ironically, when I started to stand up for myself in little bits, the marriage got worse because he couldn't deal with it.
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Quote:
But it would be such a shame to waste all this pain and not come out wiser and better for it. Yes, I also wish we could have worked it out for the sake of my D13, but at this point I'm not sure I could ever have salvaged a real relationship from the levels of narcissism on his part and self-doubt on mine. We got involved too soon after my first divorce, when I was far too vulnerable to be in a position to expect much of anything. I did a lot of work, but I'm not sure I gave it time to mature in me.


I doubt mine could have been salvaged either, but primarily because I don't think he will ever acknowledge his own issues. He chose to blame me for all the problems and find someone else who would validate him.

I worry about getting into another relationship and falling into the same pattern. I guess that is why I run whenever anyone comes too close. crazy

Well, that's true. It takes 2 people to wreck a marriage, but it also takes 2 to put one back together. And if one person chooses to blame the other for all the problems and fails to look at their own contribution, it just won't work. I think that's why it has been so important to me to figure all this out so I could move forward and break out of these d*mn patterns. Ironically, xH continues to claim that 100%of the problems in the marriage were my fault. For now, it seems to be working for him, but I gotta believe it will collapse in the long run.
Quote:
Ironically, when I started to stand up for myself in little bits, the marriage got worse because he couldn't deal with it.

Ditto. Marriage, and any relationship really, is a system; change one thing in a system and it changes everything. That's what's behind the "do a 180" concept--all you can change is yourself, and ultimately if you change yourself you will bring about change in the marriage. Unfortunately, it won't always be a change you'll like.
Quote:
It takes 2 people to wreck a marriage, but it also takes 2 to put one back together. And if one person chooses to blame the other for all the problems and fails to look at their own contribution, it just won't work.


I asked for several years to go to marriage counseling because I could see that things were going bad, but he always said I needed counseling because it was all my problems, he wouldn't go. Maybe if I had gone to counseling on my own things might have changed, but no use wondering now. And I doubt he will ever recognize his role in the failure. The only "apology" I ever got from him regarding the demise of our marriage was him writing that he was sorry that he wasn't strong enough to carry us through all of my problems. Sad but true, that is the only "fault" he has ever claimed
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Quote:
It takes 2 people to wreck a marriage, but it also takes 2 to put one back together. And if one person chooses to blame the other for all the problems and fails to look at their own contribution, it just won't work.


I asked for several years to go to marriage counseling because I could see that things were going bad, but he always said I needed counseling because it was all my problems, he wouldn't go. Maybe if I had gone to counseling on my own things might have changed, but no use wondering now. And I doubt he will ever recognize his role in the failure. The only "apology" I ever got from him regarding the demise of our marriage was him writing that he was sorry that he wasn't strong enough to carry us through all of my problems. Sad but true, that is the only "fault" he has ever claimed
Sadly, that's not uncommon. I've heard it so much from so many people. Often phrased as "the only thing I did wrong is marrying you to begin with." I think a lot of it is defensiveness and justification, but those mechanisms only work so long because they're thinking errors.
Quote:
Sadly, that's not uncommon. I've heard it so much from so many people. Often phrased as "the only thing I did wrong is marrying you to begin with." I think a lot of it is defensiveness and justification, but those mechanisms only work so long because they're thinking errors.


I am even more saddened by the fact that I accepted that line of thinking for so long. I accepted that I had problems and was not good enough...
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Quote:
Sadly, that's not uncommon. I've heard it so much from so many people. Often phrased as "the only thing I did wrong is marrying you to begin with." I think a lot of it is defensiveness and justification, but those mechanisms only work so long because they're thinking errors.


I am even more saddened by the fact that I accepted that line of thinking for so long. I accepted that I had problems and was not good enough...

Well, that's 2 of us. And we're probably the tip of the iceberg!
we accepted it because someone we loved and who we believed loved us was telling us that...in actions as well as in words...

i compare it to an abusive relationship
(which I have been in too...)
no one would be in a relationship with a person who punched them on the 1st date
but
they don't smack you on the 1st date

they didn't treat us like we sucked on the 1st date
Quote:
no one would be in a relationship with a person who punched them on the 1st date
but
they don't smack you on the 1st date

they didn't treat us like we sucked on the 1st date

exactly. it crept up on us. then somehow we bought the ideology. we were like the Stanford Prison Experiment--we were impressionable and obedient, when presented with a legitimizing ideology (we're faulty) and social and institutional support (xH is a great guy, garrulous, a leader in his field, he's gotta be right). or maybe we were just like those frogs in the pot of boiling water. your choice.
Ribbit.
Quote:
inviting you to wisdom

I love that phrase ---- so true. All kinds of tragedy, pain, and upheaval in ones life is an invitation to wisdom, if you allow it.

BTW, have you thought of selling your XH's drum set on E-bay? I bet he bought the best set money could buy, so you should get quite a bit for it. cool

Take care.
Originally Posted By: figgeroni
we accepted it because someone we loved and who we believed loved us was telling us that...in actions as well as in words...

i compare it to an abusive relationship
(which I have been in too...)
no one would be in a relationship with a person who punched them on the 1st date
but
they don't smack you on the 1st date

they didn't treat us like we sucked on the 1st date


Sadly it was the opposite. I think that is part of the personality disorder, making you trust and eventually become dependent on them.
Originally Posted By: goldeylox
Ribbit.
lol!
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Quote:
inviting you to wisdom

I love that phrase ---- so true. All kinds of tragedy, pain, and upheaval in ones life is an invitation to wisdom, if you allow it.

BTW, have you thought of selling your XH's drum set on E-bay? I bet he bought the best set money could buy, so you should get quite a bit for it. cool

Take care.

part of the D settlement--that he wants his drums and his bike (is it just me, or does that sound a lot like an 8-year-old?!). He just hasn't picked them up. But I can't sell them. and yes, his drums are top-of-the-line.
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Originally Posted By: figgeroni
we accepted it because someone we loved and who we believed loved us was telling us that...in actions as well as in words...

i compare it to an abusive relationship
(which I have been in too...)
no one would be in a relationship with a person who punched them on the 1st date
but
they don't smack you on the 1st date

they didn't treat us like we sucked on the 1st date


Sadly it was the opposite. I think that is part of the personality disorder, making you trust and eventually become dependent on them.

but never again, right?
HM and friends - great thread and line of thought. I just caught up, and so much relates...
Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
HM and friends - great thread and line of thought. I just caught up, and so much relates...

glad you find it relevant. hope there's something helpful here!
Ribbit.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Originally Posted By: figgeroni
we accepted it because someone we loved and who we believed loved us was telling us that...in actions as well as in words...

i compare it to an abusive relationship
(which I have been in too...)
no one would be in a relationship with a person who punched them on the 1st date
but
they don't smack you on the 1st date

they didn't treat us like we sucked on the 1st date


Sadly it was the opposite. I think that is part of the personality disorder, making you trust and eventually become dependent on them.

but never again, right?


Yeah, trusting again will be hard.
no, what I meant was that we've suffered and we've learned, and if we integrate this into our lives we are not as likely to make the same mistake again.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
no, what I meant was that we've suffered and we've learned, and if we integrate this into our lives we are not as likely to make the same mistake again.


Ok, that works too. LOL But seriously, I am a little leary of my own judgment at this point, and tend to keep people at a distance. I hope I get past that.
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
no, what I meant was that we've suffered and we've learned, and if we integrate this into our lives we are not as likely to make the same mistake again.


Ok, that works too. LOL But seriously, I am a little leary of my own judgment at this point, and tend to keep people at a distance. I hope I get past that.
wow, do I know that feeling!! could be why my best friends are online....
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
no, what I meant was that we've suffered and we've learned, and if we integrate this into our lives we are not as likely to make the same mistake again.


Ok, that works too. LOL But seriously, I am a little leary of my own judgment at this point, and tend to keep people at a distance. I hope I get past that.
wow, do I know that feeling!! could be why my best friends are online....


I have good RL friends. I don't have a problem trusting women.....it is men. I make eye contact, I talk, I flirt, I dance, I run like hell!!!!!!
Suzy...
you crack me up!!
HM - can you come visit? Goldey
Merry Christmas, Hoozh.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years, Hoozh!
Christmas flyby...love Goldey
Hi, Andabelle, NCB and goldey!

Merry Christmas to y'all, too. December 25 is only the FIRST day of Christmas, right?

After a perfectly miserable, wallowing-in-crap, pathetic, pity party at Thanksgiving, it seems I got it out of my system. Christmas Eve and Christmas Day were great. Nothing remarkable, nothing earth-shattering or euphoric or intense. But really warm and pleasant and...happy.

Christmas Eve D13 was with H's family and had a blast with her cousins and aunts and uncles--and no OW anywhere, so she was thrilled. She arrived home about 11 pm flying high and just about exhausted me with her energy and joy--just normal young-teen Christmas stuff, which otherwise I'd take for granted! I spent the evening at Mass at 5 pm, followed by a dinner with 5 others including my priest-friend who's been such a blessing and several hot Hispanic young men. Don't be callin' me a cougar--most were gay Catholic seminarians! Had a great--and irreverent--evening together! Midway thru the evening I realized I felt completely content and at peace--not a smidge of emptiness or grief. And that was truly a wonderful feeling.

Christmas Day D13 slept in, and got up to open her gifts and we relaxed and ate all day long. It was very nice. Again, no feeling of longing for anything different for the day.

I will admit here that I had a couple of very difficult days earlier in the week, never did get a tree or do much decorating--but that is not a new thing for me. Never a big fan of Christmas, and D13 didn't seem to mind much at all. It isn't about the tree and lights and stuff--it's about being together and celebrating the birth of Jesus, and that we did.

Also did some nice reconnection with a friend I thought had become estranged--turns out it was my email being screwy, and we had a very good chat after notes on fb (take that, email!)

At this point, not looking ahead to wonder what next Christmas will bring, not looking for reasons to be feeling incomplete--just enjoying my daughter and having some leisure time together. This is a nice space to inhabit for once.
"At this point, not looking ahead to wonder what next Christmas will bring, not looking for reasons to be feeling incomplete--just enjoying my daughter and having some leisure time together. This is a nice space to inhabit for once."

And this is a very good thing...
I am so happy for you, H'mama! grin Do we not need a spot of irreverence, once in a while? I say, most definitely aye! wink laugh
Having a difficult day and hoping for some inspiration.

Last night I dreamed I had died but was somehow arranging and attending my own funeral altho no one seemed to think this was odd (yes, I did a lot of funeral arranging in my previous job). And the homily/eulogy was so sad--how I lived among friends and acquaintances who had simple and predictable lives that made sense and built upon themselves year after year, but mine was fraught with bad surprises and starting over time and again, and I spent my life looking for love but never found it--trying to get my life to be as "normal" as those I was surrounded by.

So I woke up sad and lonely and reflective--which is a very bad combination for me. I absolutely hate reading all of the "end of the year" and especially "end of the decade" reflections that people write; I hate reading those "Christmas letters" that come with the cards (this year I got a whopping 6 Christmas cards). I guess what it amounts to is that I hate looking back on the past months and years, because it makes me feel suspended in space with no connections and I hang there, twisting in the wind. And I fear looking back this time next year and being in much the same place. I'm just so lonely; I've been so lonely for so long and I try so hard--in various ways--to do better but it's just not happening.

Over the course of this year, I reconnected with an old friend, just out of the blue--back in mid-January. Thought about him randomly, googled him, tossed a note. He wrote back right away--professionally had done extremely well, but his wife left him the month before my x left me; 3 children 15-20 years old. That night we IM'd until 3 am; by the end of the week we had fallen hard and fast. It wasn't so much exciting as it felt safe, like I'd come home to myself. We live 800 miles apart, which was a saving grace, and we both knew it was moving too fast but that there was some really good foundation there to build upon. We talked, prayed and cried each other through our respective mediations, our divorces were final the same week. We talked about a shared feeling of inevitability--of ending up together. And just intellectually, leaving out all the emotion--it seemed like a very good match; much in common, shared values, very similar parenting styles and philosophies, significant histories of years-of-therapy and continuing work on ourselves. He's a good man, he's kind, he's stable and strong and everything my x was not. I've known him off and on for almost 30 years. I told him--and I meant it, and continue to mean it--that I'm not seeking any kind of commitment except to get to know each other and keep the doors open to what that might bring. He came to visit in May--he has family near here--and we had one night together. It was, of course, incredible; the connection was amazing at all levels. He planned to visit again in August, but we could never get our schedules (and our kids' schedules) to sync. And then he just seemed to get further and further away, emotionally. It was some of that Mars-Venus rubberband thing, it was busy-ness, it was each of us dealing with our own stuff and trying to heal in our own ways, it was too much intensity early on. But the synchronicity persists, the sense that this could be a good thing if we could move it slowly along. Sometimes he's there, and as close as someone 800 miles away could possibly be, supportive, caring. And other times, it's a two-line email once a week. Last week we used the "L-word" for the first time. But then, the inevitable snap-back. It's excruciating. It triggers my huge tendency to feel abandoned.

I know I'm too isolated, he takes up a disproportionately large chunk of my life--and I'm certainly not shutting anyone else out. There's just no one else around, my life persists in being very small. Dating?--ha! I never did that much before I got married; both times I married someone who started out as a good friend, and it grew. If someone asked me out, I'd probably go (if they were acceptable, of course!); I'm not "waiting around" for this man to heal enough to ride up and sweep me away. I would LOVE to have more balance in my life, but it's just not happening. And I continue to work on healing; some days are excellent, others abysmal. Most are in-between, and I suppose that slowly the abysmal ones come further and further apart. But again--why is this not more simple and straightforward?

I worry about D13. She recently took a high school placement test and bombed it. She has no friends--there were no calls, no texts, no email over the break from anyone for her. I hate to blame it all on the divorce, but two years ago she made honor roll and had a few good friends (she'll never be the social butterfly type). And now--it's so different for her. It's hard to have much of a social life, I think, when she lives in two different homes across town from each other. I can try to provide all the stability I can for her, but I can't fix this part and I hate that. She is both immature and wise beyond her years, and doesn't seem miserable, but I don't know that she'd let me know it if she was.

There's my journaling. I don't mean to wallow, it's just that I'm feeling particularly lonely today.
Posted By: naej Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 12/31/09 05:21 PM
Hoosier, no words of wisdom, just to let you know I am reading and feeling your pain. I had a similar "man" in my life a few years ago now. Old b/f from 35 + years ago, he heard about my D got in touch-light the blue touch paper and stand well back-like all those years we had never been apart. It came to nothing BUT I am so glad it happened showed me I could still feel and deeply at that.
I have been alone now coming into my 10th year!! so be kind to yourself, for some of us it takes a very long time. You will make it through and so will your daughter.
Getting ready to go party but couldn't let this post go unanswered. Keep reaching out, exploring new avenues and growing.
All my very best wishes to you for 2010.
Good things will happen when you least expect them.
Take care.
I'd love to hear more, naej. how long it lasted, what happened to end it, etc.

He wasn't an old bf, actually, but a very good friend; we talked about everything. As it turns out, he always wanted it to be more--and I knew it--but at the time I was involved with someone else and apparently intent upon self-immolation. I wasn't used to being cared for, and obviously this guy did--and that scared me. This time when we reconnected, the ability to talk openly and safely was clearly there, but my walls were not. Unfortunately, he built some of his own from the debris of a 24-year marriage. Yes, it feels good to feel deeply again--but why I was so willing to be vulnerable again is a mystery to me--it's not like me. Except that I always felt safe with him.

Best wishes for a wonderful 2010 to you, too!
H'mama! I feel for you, and wish so much for you and your D. Sometimes, we are in the dunes of a dust-like life ... the sun is beating down, and there seems like there is just the two of you trudging through the sand. But, suddenly, you will come upon an oasis and you will wonder why you were worried. Life is like that, isn't it?! Once in the oasis, you will relax in the coolness of the shade of the trees, and drink in the water of love and companionship which you both deserve. What luxury it seems like now?! But, I have no doubt that if you continue to forge ahead with the courage that you have shown us ... all of this will be yours in time, and more.

But, I understand being in this wilderness. I have been there. It sucks!!!! I wish it over for you and your D in 2010.
Posted By: naej Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 01/01/10 12:07 PM
Hi Hoosier, well it lasted about 3 years,the last 6months or so I knew it was "dying". I knew he did too but wouldn't come right out and say so,so I ended it.
I had known in my heart it was a game,I always said so and he protested but he knew. It was a last ditch attempt at recapturing our youth,for him I think he needed to know how life would have been if we had married,he once told me his wife brought up my name everytime they fell out,he married on the rebound from me! I had hardly ever thought of him we exchanged C,mas cards as couples over the years but that was it.
It was a magical time for me and I have no regrets. I think of him now and again,and will always be grateful that he unlocked my heart and took time to break down my walls.
I know now I am still desirable as a woman and have been loved deeply.He brought me back to life and that is a gift I will have for as long as I breathe.
We have to be vunerable,how else can we know when love touches us.
I will never be as hurt as I was with my x nothing and no one has that power over me,I truly know that and I know I will always love my x but my heart can be awakened to new loves. The heart is big, it does not have a limited amount of love,it grows to make room for new loves.
Make your heart grow and even if this love is only temperary, it will be for a reason and help with the healing.
God Bless.
Thank you, BeingMe. It does feel like I'm "wandering in the wilderness" at times. And a year-and-a-half into the wilderness (both my marriage and my ministry position ended the same week, and I lost friends and community in both) it feels like I'll never find that oasis. I just wish D13 wasn't in the same wilderness. Hers, I think, has more to do with just being in middle school and being ever-so-slightly "different." Nevertheless, it leaves her isolated at a time when she needs the support of friends and community. I have prayed and prayed to find some kind of youth group, the answer to which high school would be best for her, and I'm not getting much clarity at all--at least none that I can recognize.

Yes, I'm hoping that 2010 marks the year I find an oasis! Thanks for always being there, BeingMe!
Happy New Year, Hoozh. Getting ready to get a windy, rain-soaked road down to O-town for New Year's at my BIL's house, and only have a sec, but I did want to pass along an e-hug and a Happy New Year to my bestest-never-met-them friend. smile

I hope 2010 is better -- for both of us.

Deep in my annual New Year's funk,

Pup
Thank you, naej. I appreciate your willingness to share so very much.

One of the more difficult parts of this "thing" is that it's a long-distance relationship. Of course, if it were not, it would have flashed over and burned itself out very quickly. Initially clung to each other like the 2 drowning people we were and had we been closer we'd have sunk. Okay, I'm wearing out the cliches and metaphors here! But anyway, hopefully we've done a better job of keeping each other afloat this way. But it's difficult, and by its very nature the communication is a bit strange--most of it is written, and there's no nuancing or facial expression or tone of voice or body language--just the words. And while we're both quite articulate, we're both kind of intense and introspective; occasionally I have to remind myself he's not my personal journal and it's okay just to talk about "stuff" and not process all the time. Yes, we do talk every week or so, and we laugh a lot.

Oddly, it doesn't feel like a game. I keep looking for red flags, of course--being the second-guesser that I am--and the only ones I find are more related to each of us being wounded messes trying to heal and put our lives back together than anything else. While I think there may have been a very tiny element of "holding a torch" going on for him, I don't get the sense that I ever came up in their marriage. I think it's been a real struggle for him to let go of his wife--she's the classic WAW and he's the classic LBS who had trouble dropping the rope, although it sounds like she was rather uniquely and creatively emotionally abusive. I had met her several times in the early days of their marriage, and I have to say she didn't like me much and was very territorial--which I found strange--altho I don't get the sense that there was any of what you describe going on.

I'm not sure how he'd describe our relationship; in fact, we take great pains not to describe it, not to define it and just let it be. But in the very first conversations, we promised each other not to let go this time, to remain in each others' lives in some way. I don't know that that would be possible if we found other people to spend our lives with--I can't see SO's being comfortable with the level at which we communicate. But because we're both works-in-progress, there have been some rather rough patches over the past year, and we've managed to pull together and work them out in ways I've never experienced before. And that's been a learning experience. I've learned a lot about myself in that, and I like what I've learned. And that has been very healing; xH blames the affair and all the marital problems on me--and I can see now from a different perspective, not just intellectually, that that's not at all true. It's interesting not to be in a relationship with a narcissist--and I think that my romantic life has been disproportionately populated with those. I'm a much better person in relationship when I actually "count" in that relationship!

But the slowness, the tentativeness, the pullbacks--while probably pretty normal--are excruciating, and throw me easily into feeling abandoned. And while it's not fun, it's probably healthy for me to learn the difference between "feeling" abandoned and actually "being" abandoned. I long for some reassurance, some ability to look into the future and know that this relationship will not also blow up in my face and cause great pain--and of course, there are no guarantees of that for anyone.

Thanks for listening to my processing. Happy New Year, and blessings to you, too, naej!
Awww--same to you, pup. Today the weather here is cold but it's a beautiful bright blue sky replacing yesterday's cold gray drizzle--and I find my mood is also much less gray. I hope the same for you, my friend--an improvement in the weather internally as well as outside!
A year ago this week I was in an agonizing limbo, wondering if I should keep trying to hang onto my marriage (yeah, as if I had any influence on that) or let it go and move on emotionally toward healing from the loss. So I hit my knees in great pain and asked for a sign to tell me what to do. The next day I woke up with more peace than I'd felt in a couple of years, and no longer missing xH. Missing our life, and it's predictability and "stability" for sure, but not him.

And then a week or two later the gym teacher walked into the office wearing a sweatshirt that somehow triggered a memory of an old friend, and I googled him and tossed a brief and casual note, hoping for a quick update and perhaps a laugh over a few shared memories. And I got quite a sign there, I think.

Had a wonderful chat with D13 a couple of days ago. Same stuff, really, no new incidents or anything like that, just that she appreciates being able to talk to me and wishes her father, the professional "listener," would listen to her. She has begun using the term "boundaries" frequently, and feels she is setting them in her refusing a relationship with the Witch (ok, not using a nasty term--she actually IS a witch). However, she feels powerless in that when she does set boundaries, xH persists in questioning her and pushing his agenda ("do you talk to your mother like this?!"--ha!), and feels that it only makes him angry. It still ties in with being afraid he'll stop loving her (again, a very precarious place to be for her development of her sense of female self-in-relationship, and what an idiot he is to be screwing around like this; what an evil thing). Someday, and it may be awhile, she will have the strength to make that phone call and take herself out of the situation. But not just now. Nevertheless, I am incredibly thankful that she trusts me and that we have the kind of relationship that allows her to talk like this. And I feel that gratitude in the depths of my soul. But what I also feel is the great difficulty of knowing that she may well deal with this fear of losing her father's love through subsequent relationships with guys the rest of her life--seeking that assurance of love by choosing guys like him to play it out and doing what she thinks might be necessary to ensure that love. She's at perhaps the most vulnerable developmental stage for this to happen. And that terrifies me.

I would sincerely appreciate any input on this from anyone who has some wisdom about it. Is there anything I can do to mitigate the effects of her feeling her father's love is so conditional and so tenuous?
Hi H'mama! Perhaps your example of letting go, might help her in her romantic R's in the future. It must be very difficult to be a child of a 'narcissist'. I think she may've already been effected long before he left, in subtle ways? Possibly, some literature on this type of R somewhere?
I'll look for that. Can't say I've come across anything about narcissistic dad/adolescent daughter dynamics, but it might be out there. I have a feeling that she's beginning to see that he's got the issue, that it's not her fault for being "unlovable" or something. But I don't know if that ultimately makes a difference.

She has a wonderful godfather who has stepped up to the plate, and I have a cousin nearby who's a high school teacher who has had some great conversations with D13. Trying to find some strong, stable, and safe men to give her good examples.

Anyone else had any experience in dealing with dads who have obviously chosen OW over their daughters, and how they've helped their daughters deal?
I guess your D needs to realise that your XH has the issues, not her. But, she is emotionally attached to him, and at such a young age, will find it difficult to deal with his behaviour.

I found these links (which info you probably know about, but in case you find something different and interesting, I will post them here):
http://www.drirene.com/11_nar.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_a_narcissistic_father_ever_accept_you (I found this one interesting where your D is concerned --- it seems she is the babysitting object in his new family)
http://www.mental-health-today.com/narcissistic/father.htm
http://narcissisticparents.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-my-narcissistic-father-got-that-way.html (interesting blog)

I wonder if there are levels of narcissism? Are some worse than others --- probably, just like there are levels of empathy in people. I have seen so much of this on the board ---- parents completely exiting their children's lives, or only wanting them around for what they can get out of it.
wow--I read these links and they were both scary and comforting.

I can see where the narcissism came from--xH's father is emotionally about 8 years old and very narcissistic, mom tended to disappear and felt she had no choice but to raise her sons according to her MIL's Italian model--few responsibilities, treating them like little princes, being a buffer between them and dad during disagreements.

And very definitely, there's a great level of conflict between xH and D13 when she fails to provide that "narcissistic supply" and has the nerve to differentiate a bit and establish her own boundaries about OW. Certainly OW is providing that "supply" along with her daughters...for now. And it was when I stopped providing it that things fell apart in the marriage.

The articles you cited were comforting in that they point out that if I can remain stable D13 will likely continue to choose me as a role model rather than her father; at this point that's kind of a no-brainer. Unfortunately it seems like most of the examples they used were same-gender parent-child relationships. None of them really discussed the specific issue I have been so concerned about.

Are there levels of narcissism? Probably. xH at least isn't violent, and a big part of his self-image has to do with being seen as good relationally because of his career choice. And while he certainly has been proven to lie to protect that image, he can really only carry that so far since he works with others who are also relational experts. And while he is very good at talking a good story and knowing just what to say, he has to stay within certain boundaries or he'll be "found out." He is functional, tho, and actually quite highly regarded in his field; that's a testament to his ability to manipulate and put on very good masks. If he were more severely narcissistic I think he'd be less functional.

So I'm thinking that the issue I'm most worried about--how to support D13 as she struggles with fearing losing her father's love and reduce the developmental damage associated with that--is affected by the narcissism but she is aware that, in many ways, she's an "object" to him. And that is less than helpful for her.

Anyone have any other practical ideas for supporting daughters thru fatherly emotional abandonment?
A quick note...

Today D13 has the typical teenager's busy, over-scheduled life and she's really happy about it. Immediately after school, there's Yearbook committee (often she's the only one who shows up for it, so she has some real ownership) until 4 pm, and then at 5 she has volleyball tryouts. An hour in-between that she needs to be elsewhere because it's not ok with school to hang out unsupervised there. Since it's my evening at the 2nd job, I asked xH if he could pick her up at 4 and return her at 5; there's a McDonald's just down the street they could go grab a snack at. And I asked him this because when I was explaining her busy schedule for this week and expressing concern that his typical visitation schedule might not work, he said he'd be "happy to get her to activities and pick her up as needed." So after a bit of arguing, he agreed to do that. But when I talked with D13 at bedtime last night (she calls to say goodnite when she's at her dad's) she told me that he told her to go and hang out in the gym, or in the locker room if anyone questioned her. He's not going to pick her up and return her. And of course, he wasn't going to tell me that either.

This reminds me of this time last year, when D13 first met OW at a dinner get-together and was distraught about it--he didn't bother to prepare her for that, or even warn her it was happening. I confronted him angrily, and said that, per our prelim agreement she was NOT to be with OW until at least a year after he left, and I was holding him to that. After first telling me it was none of my business what D13 did when she was with him (hmmm, last I checked my daughter IS my business) he agreed to avoid contact between them. Then I found out in July--7 months later--that D had been instructed to keep it a secret and she and OW and family were together on a regular basis. xH completely disregarded my concerns and lied about it. (But then, we're all objects to him anyway.) He can't be trusted to prioritize D's needs, nor to be honest with me. Yeah, this is great co-parenting.
Hi hoosier...I was just catching up on your thread.

I will comment a about the situation your D faces, with some of my personal history.

My father, while not a narcissist, was mentally ill. None of us who loved him really understood the depths of his illness while he was alive. It wasn't until after his death and seeing all of his life laid out there that we could really comprehend the total truth, which was basically this: although he was sometimes cruel and downright batty, he never really intended to hurt any of us...it was his illness that caused him to behave this way. And yet - the final lesson of it all was that, innocent of direct intention or not, we all had to protect ourselves from him in our own ways. Because even though he had a true "excuse" for his strange behavior, it still could have and did harm us all if we stayed too close in his path. There was nothing we could have done to help him with his illness, and so we all ended up doing what was best for ourselves, which was to distance ourselves from him. He died of brain cancer at age 60.

So the part of my story that relates to your D, which will not really be good advice or anything very encouraging...but it will be a reality check for you and later, for her...

My parents were divorced when I was 6 (not due to affairs) and when I was 10 my father got remarried to a very horrible step-mother. I don't want to say she was a horrible woman, because in fact I don't know her well enough to say that. But definitely she was a horrible step-mother. She was also a horrible wife. She was 30 years old when she met my father and he was her FIFTH husband.

She was jealous of my relationship with my father and she was very spiteful and immature. She did many things to try to damage my brother and I, in little weird, cruel ways.

She and my father did a lot of binge drinking, and my brother and I saw and heard some very wild, disturbing things during those episodes.

My father had always tried to get custody of us from my mother, and finally when we were in our early teens, we agreed willingly to live with him...before that age my mother would never have allowed this...but finally by then, she knew we had to see for ourselves what our father really was inside...how he truly behaves...how strange he really is. The only way to do this was by living with him, and by now, he was remarried, so we lived with the step-mother, too.

Their relationship was so volatile and my step-mother was so mean to us, that soon enough, my brother fled the coup and ran back to my mother's house. I stayed on for a few more months at my fathers, returned home to my mom's for a while, but then returned to live with my father and step-mother again for the last time when I was 14. By then my brother had graduated high school and was living with friends. He begged me not to go live with them again as he knew I would regret it. But at the time, it suited my wishes to live in the town my father lived in so I ignored my brother.

Within only about 6 months of living with my father and step-mother, I was losing my mind. She was so horrible to me and he just allowed it. I could not really understand what I was witnessing, as my father had always made a lot of noise about my mother's new husband - my step-father - and how I should "never listen to that idiot as he is not even related to you". Seemed though that when he himself remarried, it didn't matter what we told him about how she treated us, he would always take her side.

Finally there was a huge blow up and fight between my father and I about her. In this fight I finally blurted out how I felt very betrayed by how he would always take her side and never stand up for me. What he said to me at that time will never leave my memory. He told me that he "had to take her side because she is his wife, and that I will eventually grow up and move away, but she would be his wife forever". Therefore, he needed to align himself with her so that his own future would be happier, and he didn't really care about my current happiness.

Now...in a perfect world, of course you would stand up to your child and tell them that you have to side with your spouse...but this was not a perfect world. The woman was abusive to us and he knew it, and he was making these statements knowing that there would never be any chance of his wife changing her abusive nature.

I could not believe my ears, because again, he had made so many dispariging remarks about my step-father over the years. It shook me to my core and I moved back to my mother's house shortly after that.

And then....within 1 year of my moving back to mom's, my father and step-mother were divorced. (She has later had two husbands after him, making it SEVEN husbands total). So I had to chuckle to myself, "yeah right dad, I'll grow up and move away and SHE will be your wife FOREVER???? Uh huh. And NOW who is still in your life forever, ME, and who is gone forever? HER. Chyuh."

But here's the point for you and your daughter...I really HAD to learn this lesson directly from his own mouth and his own actions. I had to see him for who he really was, not the Disneyland weekend Superdad I had believed him to be when I was younger and before he remarried. It hurt me immensely, but it also helped me in my future with him. It helped me to know for sure who he was and that he would throw me under the bus. I had to grow up and realize that a mentally ill person can really very much love you...and still be a very dangerous person to you if you don't keep your boundaries in place.

I hated him for a while...but later I understood him. I forgave him for everything, but remained distant enough so that he couldn't hurt me again. I loved him again finally, but never fully trusted him with my emotional feelings.

I was so glad to know who he truly was at a young age, so that I wouldn't have been disillusioned by the truth later as an adult. Yes it hurt. Another life lesson is that people who love us do hurt us, and I was glad for that lesson too as it helped me in numerous situations as an adult.

Finally now it doesn't hurt anymore, and I can really understand that his illness had nothing to do with me. No one can guarantee your daughter will come to that conclusion, but it is likely she will. Try very hard not to worry that she will grow up with too many issues, because she will likely grow up very smart and kind, but very wise to the ways people can be. She will know he loves her, but that he will throw her under the bus for OW. This hurts, of course, but since it is her reality, it is best for her to see it directly.

I do wish I had someone I could have vented to when I was her age about my father's behavior. Unfortunately, my entire family had also been hurt by him so they all could say nothing other than "well yep, that's your dad, he's done it to us, too". I wish I had someone outside my family who would have simply listened to me talk about it and hear the hurt in my voice, say "there there, poor dear" and then I could have at least felt justified in my feelings. I hope your D at least has something along those lines. I got by fine without counseling (which would come later), but simply a kind adult ear and shoulder would have really helped.

I hope my story helps you in some small way. Keep updating us. It takes a long long time, but eventually, everything smoothes out and you look backward and see your life behind you...and it doesn't look as bad as it did while you were climbing up the hill.

DQ
DQ--thank you so much for sharing your story in such a thoughtful way. It's immensely helpful to hear from people who have been through this, either as children themselves or as parents helping their children through the nonsense. I'd so like to hear more if anyone is open to sharing!

Somewhere earlier in the thread I discussed my own history with this--my mom left my dad for an abusive alchoholic when I was 10, handled it very selfishly. My dad died suddenly when I was 11, and throughout my adolescence I dealt with the cycle of abuse and my mother's rejection and her choice of this jerk over me, putting both of our lives in danger at times (I had a skull fracture and rib fractures show up on x-rays as an adult from incidents that remained untreated secrets as a child). And all thru it, my mom tried to force a relationship between me and the guy, and with his family. So I know what my daughter feels (altho this situation doesn't have physical abuse related to it) and I know it's psychologically harmful for xH to manage this as he has been. But I digress....

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Try very hard not to worry that she will grow up with too many issues, because she will likely grow up very smart and kind, but very wise to the ways people can be. She will know he loves her, but that he will throw her under the bus for OW. This hurts, of course, but since it is her reality, it is best for her to see it directly.

So true. D13 (soon to be D14) is very smart and kind. And learning quickly these lessons you mention. We hate to see our children have to deal with this for sure, but you're right, it is a learning experience.

Quote:
I do wish I had someone I could have vented to when I was her age about my father's behavior. Unfortunately, my entire family had also been hurt by him so they all could say nothing other than "well yep, that's your dad, he's done it to us, too". I wish I had someone outside my family who would have simply listened to me talk about it and hear the hurt in my voice, say "there there, poor dear" and then I could have at least felt justified in my feelings. I hope your D at least has something along those lines. I got by fine without counseling (which would come later), but simply a kind adult ear and shoulder would have really helped.

Yes--I realize in looking back that I felt more empowered to set and enforce boundaries when I had a chance to vent (altho those opportunities were rare, they did exist) and felt as if someone cared. Hopefully I will continue to be a safe place for D13 to vent, and am providing her support from wise and healthy adults. She has expressed several times that she finds it very comforting and reassuring to be able to talk (a little) and just be around people who know her situation and care about her, and who don't feel compelled to excuse her father for his poor and painful choices. There's been so much hypocrisy and denial among family and former friends that it seems almost crazy-making at times--as if our reality is not real but the reality as defined by xH is. So having adults who care, are supportive, and validate her experience and feelings is very helpful, as you said.

I'm already finding that I can look back at the past couple of years and not feel pain all the time. Sure, I have my moments--this was a huge betrayal, after all--but I'm finally able to separate my feelings and also acknowledge how I could have taken better care of myself throughout the marriage (and why I didn't). Moving ahead is still a slow process, but it is happening even if it's not as quickly as I'd like.

Thank you again, so very much, for sharing--and for caring enough to do so!
HM..is there another adult that is not related to her that your daughter could talk to? If not, perhaps getting her involved in a big brother/big sister program might be helpful...she will need a place to vent about everything and sometimes it is easier to do that when we are not afraid of hurting someone else by our venting...

just a thought
Yes--both her godfather and my cousin--who's a high school teacher--have been very supportive, caring, and understanding to her. I don't have a lot of connections at the moment, but those I do have are a blessing.

My cousin, btw, isn't an actual relative. We grew up down the street from one another, he's 4 years younger, his grandparents (who raised him) were my parents' best friends; he's like a brother, but not actually related. And I think it's made him free to say things in front of me that he otherwise might not say, and she has no need to "protect" me by her response.
Just wanted to jump in here and recommend a book that I'm finding REALLY helpful. It's called From Abandonment to Healing, by Susan Anderson. Every now and then we find ourselves stuck in this journey from surviving the big D to thriving again. This book lays out the emotional process in a very clear way, explores "stuckness" in each stage, and discusses how one can work thru it.

I came across this title somewhere on these boards, and if I can remember whose thread mentioned it I'd thank them personally. Since I can't recall, tho, just a general thank you going out here!
just posting to update--D13 is now D14!
Happy Birthday to her!!!
Please go visit Gypsy.
sorry, g--just got this. I will.
Happy b-day to your D!
Originally Posted By: Andabelle
Happy b-day to your D!
thank you!
I'm having another of those "end of my rope" times. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted, I can't sleep because my stupid dog won't stop whining for whatever reason. I'm coming up shortly on 2 years since the bomb, and my life is still a bombed-out shell in spite of a lot of effort to rebuild it. I'm so discouraged and I just don't want to live like this the rest of my life.

One of my colleagues at work, aged 34, had a stroke over the weekend; minimal brain damage, really, altho she'll need speech therapy to learn to talk again. In searching for the cause of the stroke, they discovered she has leukemia. I'm honestly not that close emotionally to her, but I've gotten called to the hospital a couple of times to interpret the medicalese--once by the neurologist. She's a single mom, her husband left her last February. Not a lot of family support; mom lives with her but struggles so much with depression that she had to tell her it was time to step up, get out of bed, and feed the kids. When we were alone in the hospital room, she broke down and talked about how afraid she was, and how she didn't know how she was going to go through this alone.

And I can't help thinking that this could easily be me. I have pretty much accepted that I'll die alone (went thru dealing with this when 2 friends, a couple of years younger than me, had heart problems last fall; one died suddenly.) I don't mean it in a pathetic way, only that you come to grips with a worst-case-scenario and then you accept it and put it behind you. But if it was me in that room on the hematology floor--I'd be just as alone as my friend. And that's terrifying. These are the times when you realize just why you hate the isolation so much--it's frightening.

came home from the hospital last night with one of those "tomorrow's promised to no one" feelings, and was just a bit overly expressive of gratitude for my Texas friend's relationship. And got nada back. So today I apologized for loving. And I dropped another rope. So freaking tired of dropping ropes.

Will there be a day, ever, when I don't have to "take it back?" When I don't feel discarded and defective? I've done all the right stuff--and it just doesn't get any better.

Just journaling here. dont' expect a reply, rarely get replies. I just wish someone could tell me that my life will not always be this painful.
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I just wish someone could tell me that my life will not always be this painful.

No-one can tell you that you life will ever be painless. No-one knows the future. We can make assumptions, and have hopes, and plan, but cr*p still happens, and can happen for months, or years. Or, just on a day when you're thinking "life sucks", something happens --- a new job, a kind word, you win something in a competition, or (dare I say it) a new man who won't run at the first sign of your needing something from him. They are out there --- just gotta have patience.

I have been somewhat out of sorts myself, lately. It seems that the tumour subsiding has been somewhat of an anti-climax. But, I do try and enjoy each day I'm alive. I am so sad for your colleague --- I pray for her healing. No fun to be in this situation. As for being alone --- who knows who will be with us at a time of extreme crisis. Your colleague has you, even though she didn't know you very well. There's always an angel waiting in the wings.

(((((Strength H'mama!))))))) Just a reminder of God's care below, since I know you are well aware of it. smile
The Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-12)
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven.
Your life will NOT be always this painful.

I assume it feels as a lot of time has gone by and you probably thought that, by now, things would be a lot better and when you are down, things look equally painful or not much better, BUT, 2 years is really not a long time to come to terms with the end of your life the way you knew it, to break down in pieces, get back on your feet again, regroup, take care of practicalities, accept the new reality and face it. I mean, you have come a long way and you need to remind yourself that.

I am struggling too with being pessimistic. It's very hard to keep a positive attitude when you are hitting a low or are tired of fighting. But it is critical that you do. You have got to tell yourself, things will be ok in the end, if they are not Ok, it is not the end yet...
(())
K

PS I know you didnt ask for a reply, hope you dont mind...
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Quote:
I just wish someone could tell me that my life will not always be this painful.

No-one can tell you that you life will ever be painless. No-one knows the future. We can make assumptions, and have hopes, and plan, but cr*p still happens, and can happen for months, or years. Or, just on a day when you're thinking "life sucks", something happens --- a new job, a kind word, you win something in a competition, or (dare I say it) a new man who won't run at the first sign of your needing something from him. They are out there --- just gotta have patience.

I have been somewhat out of sorts myself, lately. It seems that the tumour subsiding has been somewhat of an anti-climax. But, I do try and enjoy each day I'm alive. I am so sad for your colleague --- I pray for her healing. No fun to be in this situation. As for being alone --- who knows who will be with us at a time of extreme crisis. Your colleague has you, even though she didn't know you very well. There's always an angel waiting in the wings.

(((((Strength H'mama!))))))) Just a reminder of God's care below, since I know you are well aware of it. smile
The Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-12)
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven.

not looking for painless at all. just enough less that I feel I can function and not curl up into a ball.
Originally Posted By: Kalni
Your life will NOT be always this painful.

I assume it feels as a lot of time has gone by and you probably thought that, by now, things would be a lot better and when you are down, things look equally painful or not much better, BUT, 2 years is really not a long time to come to terms with the end of your life the way you knew it, to break down in pieces, get back on your feet again, regroup, take care of practicalities, accept the new reality and face it. I mean, you have come a long way and you need to remind yourself that.

I am struggling too with being pessimistic. It's very hard to keep a positive attitude when you are hitting a low or are tired of fighting. But it is critical that you do. You have got to tell yourself, things will be ok in the end, if they are not Ok, it is not the end yet...
(())
K

PS I know you didnt ask for a reply, hope you dont mind...
I don't mind!

2 years does seem like a long time to be this crisis-driven. I truly don't know how much longer I can keep taking life one breath at a time! This is simply survival, it's not living. I'm so frustrated at my complete inability to build any kind of support system over this time--I have even less support now than I had at the time of the bomb, and the loneliness is just crushing me. If this is a poor attitude I apologize--it just doens't feel like I've come very far at all, and knowing there's no light at the end of the tunnel day after day is wearing me down. Yeah, I'm tired of fighting, of being overwhelmed by my emotions--which seem to come from nowhere.
Sheeeesh, Hoozh, you're getting better at the "Eeyore" thing than even me. And that's not a bar you wanna try to get UNDER, kwim?? wink

What do you mean here:

Quote:
came home from the hospital last night with one of those "tomorrow's promised to no one" feelings, and was just a bit overly expressive of gratitude for my Texas friend's relationship. And got nada back.


You can e-mail me if you'd rather answer there. I'm sorry you're hurting. Puppies hate it when ANYBODY hurts, but especially their favorites. frown

Puppy
I am terribly sorry that you are so low. Never feel bad for reaching out and please don't feel that you ever have to take it back.

I know this will seem hard right now but you need to create a vision of what you want your life to be like. Then we need to figure out the first step to get you there. It seems that you havethe basics and are running on fumes yourself. Do you enjoy reading or walking or painting. Finding that one thing can help you feel better. I promise.

I often think of Princess Diana. When she was in so much pain herself, she reached out to those hurting more and it helped ease her own pain. I will admit, I don't know what I would have doen without my oldest two boys. I shouldn't have allowed myself to lean on them but they came to me often for themselves and together we got through this mess.

I bet you will get through this too, lean a way dear lady.

hugs, kat
Puppy, could you chime in on my sitch? Thanks.
Originally Posted By: kat727
I am terribly sorry that you are so low. Never feel bad for reaching out and please don't feel that you ever have to take it back.

I know this will seem hard right now but you need to create a vision of what you want your life to be like. Then we need to figure out the first step to get you there. It seems that you havethe basics and are running on fumes yourself. Do you enjoy reading or walking or painting. Finding that one thing can help you feel better. I promise.

I often think of Princess Diana. When she was in so much pain herself, she reached out to those hurting more and it helped ease her own pain. I will admit, I don't know what I would have doen without my oldest two boys. I shouldn't have allowed myself to lean on them but they came to me often for themselves and together we got through this mess.

I bet you will get through this too, lean a way dear lady.

hugs, kat

Kat--I think you've hit on something brilliant in its simplicity here (in bold above). I really haven't thought about what I want life to be like--I've just focused on getting thru this a day at a time. Actually, I thought I had the life I wanted--marriage, a family, a job doing ministry. And I've focused so much on the "shock and awe" of losing it all at once that I haven't moved forward. If I've given it any thought, I've very quickly gotten to "I can't afford it" because--well, money is very tight. And my energy is very low--I need to max out my antidepressants, I think.

As far as reaching out to those who need help--I work in an inner-city school. And with my co-worker who just had the stroke and the leukemia diagnosis. I kinda do that daily, so I think I've got that piece in place. I just need to have a dream again, something to look forward to and to work toward. Thank you for mentioning this, and saying it with kindness.
The pain. There's no way around it or easy way out. There's no painless way out of these situations, especially by those who were left behind. We can't get through it quicker either. It's a process (healing). Sometimes it's day by day, sometimes it's minute by minute. In order to recover, we gotta see it through. There aren't any shortcuts. But, we're gonna heal and we're gonna be able to look forward to the future with hope. It doesn't feel like it now, but it'll come about.

I'm sorry you feel so much pain and despair. Trust me, you are not alone.
Quote:
I know this will seem hard right now but you need to create a vision of what you want your life to be like. Then we need to figure out the first step to get you there. It seems that you havethe basics and are running on fumes yourself. Do you enjoy reading or walking or painting. Finding that one thing can help you feel better. I promise.


HMama, Have you ever read "The Meaning of Life" by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a holocaust survivor and it's his memoir of how he coped (handled it) in the concentration camps. It validates how our thinking preceeds our emotions.
TEA- thought proceeds emotions and emotions proceed actions
(((((Hoozh)))))
Originally Posted By: Coach
Have you ever read "The Meaning of Life" by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a holocaust survivor and it's his memoir of how he coped (handled it) in the concentration camps. It validates how our thinking preceeds our emotions.
TEA- thought proceeds emotions and emotions proceed actions

HM, get that book. Very good. It's a short read and makes you think You only need to read the first half because the other half goes into the introduction of Logotherapy. FYI - Frankl was a psychologist.

In fact I think I'm going to re-read it again today. Thanks for reminding me Coach.
I am glad that I was able to give you something to think about that might help you move forward.

I will admit I tend to take on the emotions and problems of my friends and I do need to step back once and a while because I get so overwhelmed. Please stop by my thread if you want to. I will be happy to chat.

kat
Thanks, Coach and Gno--

yes, I'm very familiar with Viktor Frankl and that book in particular. It has one of the most chilling and horrific images I can imagine (recall the child being hanged?); in fact, it is one of the things that has been part of developing my own "theology of suffering."

I also recall TEA. Sometimes I get overwhelmed because there are days when virtually everything is a "trigger." And I feel out of control. I need to focus on positive things, things to look forward to--which means I need to find create some of those things in my life.
Originally Posted By: kat727
I am glad that I was able to give you something to think about that might help you move forward.

I will admit I tend to take on the emotions and problems of my friends and I do need to step back once and a while because I get so overwhelmed. Please stop by my thread if you want to. I will be happy to chat.

kat
thanks, kat.
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
(((((Hoozh)))))

thanks. and back atcha ((((NCB)))) !
Quote:
And I feel out of control. I need to focus on positive things, things to look forward to--which means I need to create some of those things in my life.

Indeed HMama, I think this is the way to go - creating your passions and interests and focusing on the positive. Always looking up.

Take care. ((((((HM))))))
Thank you, as always, BeingMe. And to all who have come by to offer support. You have no idea how far I can go on an apparently small amount of support! You are all appreciated so much.
I'm sorry--I was multitasking when I posted that last note and it sounds awful! what I meant was--I can make a little affirmation and support go a long way, so your investment is a very good one!
Driving by.......with the top down. And the sun is shining......but it's coooooooooooooooold.
HI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hooszh definitely has the SHYDI grace and compassion of the late princess. You've got that down.

It's the honoring yourself and your desires.

But you also know how to get your DB successes....as your first goals have been met.

You are charming, charismatic, attractive, beautiful, warm.....no worries....it's all going to work out beautifully.
ok, so this has been a day. leaving Valentine's Day out of it completely (I've managed to forget about it successfully most of the day),there have been a few challenges. mostly financial.
1) D14 had a volleyball game; I had to bring her uniform to her since she was with xH. I had trouble finding the place, so both of them phoned me literally every 30 seconds until I arrived. no doubt that helped me get there sooner, right?! I hate school events; xH attends, chats up old friends like he's completely without shame (because he is) and I sit by myself while he's being gregarious.
2) got ready to go to church this morning, pulled my clothes out of the dryer--and they were still wet. my dryer has quit working. no way can i afford to fix it until at least mid-April.
3) went to the drugstore to pick up my new b/p med, but found out it was $70 after insurance. obviously unable to afford that. will have to go to a cheaper drug in a different class of drugs--my doctor and I discussed this possibility--which will come with mega side effects.
4) took a long-term look at finances. I haven't yet renewed my license plates (due last May), I've been without car insurance for the past month, can't afford D14's only major extracurricular--a wonderful children's choir--and xH refuses to pay for it so it will have to end, no way to pay half of her 8th grade trip to Washington DC unless I cut out something frivolous like--oh, I dont' know, heat, electricity, water, mortgage, car payment (already a month late on all of those). I have no consumer debt besides mortgage and car payment--this is all old medical bills, utilities, and attorney fees (oh yeah, for that divorce I didn't want to begin with).

choking on irony here and trying very hard not to despair.

what was the major $$ stressor? 2 1/2 years ago I fell and dislocated my shoulder, requiring extensive surgery. then xH left, and I couldn't keep up with the co-pays I owed. one of them went to a horrific collections company which refused to take partial payments or set up a payment plan, and ended up having my wages garnished in December-January for 3 times the original amount (when court costs and their atty fees were added in). so--I'm completely at a loss as to how I'm going to make it here. xH absolutely refuses to help, thinks all child-related stuff should be split 50-50 altho he makes 250% of my salary. complains that I'm underemployed--which is probably true but I have a job that allows me to be with D14 when she's out of school. that may have to go, she may have to spend more time with her dad (especially if I end up without heat, which is possible--again). my school nurse position is grant-funded and I make new grad wages for all practical purposes; the bad thing is, if I stay with the same employer and keep benefits, I would also keep the same salary because they're on a "raise freeze" for the foreseeable future. and yeah, I"ve checked that out.

so...looks like I'm finally up against that wall. new job, less time with D14, possibly selling my house (which would be very difficult because it needs a lot of work--and I don't have the $$ to put into it). I'm trying not to panic here. also trying not to go to that place in my head that reminds me that I've put 2 husbands thru school and internships to make decent livings, and here I am with nothing. but I won't go there.

I was going to keep my wedding ring to give to D14; I've sold about all the rest of the jewelry of any value. Now I need to find a place to give me a good price on that--it's thick and heavy, and I know that gold is going for a lot/ounce right now.
Originally Posted By: sgctxok
Hooszh definitely has the SHYDI grace and compassion of the late princess. You've got that down.

It's the honoring yourself and your desires.

But you also know how to get your DB successes....as your first goals have been met.

You are charming, charismatic, attractive, beautiful, warm.....no worries....it's all going to work out beautifully.

thank you, sg. I appreciate it. but I'm not seeing that "working out" part real clearly right now.
Man, I wish I knew what to say, Hoozh. I'm such a putz with finances myself, and I just FEEL for ya.

I mean, I could say "your ex-husband's a horse's ass," but I'm thinking you already know that.

Puppy
I feel for you, Hmama! Sometimes, we have to do what needs to be done, even if it means less time with our children. Here's a hypothetical for you --- what if your XH had died, and left you with nothing and let's pretend you won't have family support either and you are just as alone as you are now. What would you do then?
If he had died...
I would still have our friends, I would still have my family. People would have circled closer and not pushed me away. I would have support and some closure, and I wouldn't worry that my daughter is being forced into a relationship with a woman she knows was involved in destroying her family. I might have a tiny bit of financial support from xH's wealthy brothers, who might have funded her choir or some projects (that their children did at her age). I would have grief, but I would have known there was love instead of becoming a non-entity and being told he never loved me.

It would have been better if he HAD died.

Practically speaking, yeah--I'd probably be in a similar situation financially. However, I think I'd have more support with practical stuff, helping out D14, that kind of thing; I'm very isolated now, even almost 2 years out. I might still have to find a job with highly inconvenient hours, true. But I'd be doing that and knowing D14 was safe somewhere she might feel comfortable and not with her father and the girlfriend she can't stand.
What I just wrote was not intended to be a pity party. Not in the least. But I imagine some of you can relate.

Divorce--perhaps especially when one didn't want it--is a loss just as huge as a death. It ranks right up there on that Stress Scale a point or so lower than death of a spouse. But there's a level of support and compassion we receive when we are widowed that society does not provide to those left behind in a divorce. And we have feelings of shame, rejection, being discarded, being unlovable, dealing with children who are grieving and confused, and similar issues, and we will struggle with them for years to come.

A good book--The Journey from Abandonment to Hope. It helps in identifying these feelings and dealing with the grief unique to being left behind. Sometimes just identifying the feelings helps in resolving them--and that's why I mentioned all of this here. It's a complicated grief, an often unacknowledged grief (those of you who have dealt with infertility and perinatal loss, for example, understand unacknowledged grief) and for that reason alone can be very difficult to move through.
I think that's all largely true, Hoozh. Sadly enough.

Puppy
What about some temporary type work?

I waitressed on the weekends that the boys' dad was supposed to have them...I made really good money (sometimes more those nights than my weekly salary)

and when he stopped taking them, I paid a sitter...

it helped
having that cash in my pocket

I am owed over $60,000 in back child support and over $20,000 and counting from my 2nd failed relationship

if I had that money....the things I could do...but I don't and wishing for it and being angry I don't have it only takes time away from other things that I would rather focus my energy on.

Cat or Kat (my memory is going grin) mentioned making a vision of where you want to be

I think that is a wonderful idea and I know that I do it all the time...I do some of the crappy things I have to do because it is a means to an end, you know?

our landlords just told us their grown daughter is moving in to our house and we need to be out by May or June 1st. THe only places to rent are 2 bedroom apartments and with 4 kids that just isn't happening...we have both been through divorces that have destroyed our credit (along with some of our own stupid mistakes to be sure)and his ex calls the police for a child welfare visit at least every other week (last night I put coffee on for them...they know us by name)

we will survive
because we always have
because I have Faith that if I do everything in my power, God will finish what I can't...I have to do it though...I have to try everything, I can't give up or worry I will mess up or go into it thinking I will fail because that isn't giving it my all

you are in a triage state of mind even when the crisis is over

and I don't mean that harshly...I mean that in a concerned way...like you are tying yourself up in the triage part (which is understandable) and you are looking for zebras in horse pastures...don't get ahead of yourself which is much easier said than done

what about some crazy options
like moving to where you could get a job more in your field?
obviously not in the middle of the school year but what about during the summer?
is there some restriction on that in your divorce decree?

what about selling the house back to your ex and cutting your losses instead of letting it drain you?

what about taking in a renter if you can't sell it?

what about asking for a scholarship for the choir program for your daughter?

I don't know if any of those things will work but it seems like you may be stuck worry about the same things so what if you got rid of those things?
Quote:
you are in a triage state of mind even when the crisis is over.


interesting--I made that observation, with very similar terminology, to a friend I was talking with last week. you're right--I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, anticipating an attack, looking for trouble where there isn't any. I think it's a kind of PTSD response, really. how do I get past it, tho?

anyone else been here? what did you do to relax your defenses, emotionally take a deep breath and drop your weapons?

thanks for validating my idea; I think you're onto something.
Quote:
how do I get past it, tho?

You have to make a conscious effort...think about where you want to be, make a list. Even if you can only come up with one or two wishlist items, write them down, and read them to yourself, out loud. When you're feeling down & lost, say them to yourself. Heck, I used to scream them to get my mind out of the negative loop it so naturally found.

The emotional relaxation follows the turn of your focus to positive things.

((hugs))
p.s. I carry a little notebook with me at all times, so I can use my down time to direct my thoughts to what and how I WANT to be...just that little effort helps so much to refocus from dwelling on circumstances to putting my energy into helping things go right.
Thanks, Aud!

This stuff seems so basic--I guess I have a lot to relearn. So let me begin at the bottom and ask you to give me some examples. Are you talking about states of being, concrete goals, objectives? Sorry to be so obtuse, but I think you're onto something that I've been missing. Thanks!
Yep, it's basic...sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. smile

I'm talking about all of the above: states of being, concrete goals, objectives. It takes some brain power to put what you want into tangible words (at least it does for me--I tend to distract easily). Here are some ideas:

-I am (fill in the blank with as many as you want...calm, worthwhile, organized, prepared, creative, compassionate, joyful, grateful, at peace, positive, financially stable).
-I enjoy (a fulfilling and rewarding career with a comfortable income, etc.).
-My home is (relaxing, happy, safe). I set the tone with (actions needed to create the atmosphere you want).
-I listen carefully to my friends and family and respond with a positive voice, healthy boundaries and natural consequences.
-I take action now. I live the life I want.

The sky is the limit--you choose the direction you take. Obviously, things don't change overnight, but when you lift your thoughts, you open doors you didn't know were there.
ok, so you're talking about affirmations and (sorta) visualization. Wasn't sure if you meant that or something more goal/objective oriented in a concrete way. thanks.
HM, This is a good website for what you are looking for:

http://www.csulb.edu/~tstevens/

Cheers
Here is an idea to go along with that. Have you ever seen a picture that just captures what you want? It could be a house, kids playing, a vacation spot, a scenic photo. Cut it out and carry it with you. Write down how you feel when you look at it. Just another suggestion.

hugs, kat
I suffer from PTSD and I worked with my therapist on concrete things before I worked on the visualizations

for example

I would only listen to words, not try to find intent
so i repeated a lot of things to people
it kept my mind present instead of racing onto the next imagined thing

Like...I would hear somebody say something that I FELT was yelling or negative against me and so I would restate it ina question "what I heard you saying there was that you were really mad at me for breaking the glass" so that they could respond with their REAL emotions instead of the ones I was placing on them "No I wasn't mad at you for breaking the glass...I was worried you hurt yourself, are you OK"

once I was comfortablish (because I feel like a tool doing it now even though I know it helps all of us so I am never COMFORTABLE, you know) then I worked on visualizing how I wanted to feel and where I wanted to be.

I read the book the secret and worked really hard at stopping negative thoughts and phrasing things in different ways
so instead of saying
I won't get fired
I said
I WILL stay employed

the meaning is the same but one has negative words and one has positive words, if that makes sense

once you start using postive words it helps boost your mental attitude

I also got sick less and became healthier without actually doing anything different than changing negative words to positive ones

I won't have to walk far
to
I will be close to where I need to be
I suffer from PTSD and I worked with my therapist on concrete things before I worked on the visualizations

for example

I would only listen to words, not try to find intent
so i repeated a lot of things to people
it kept my mind present instead of racing onto the next imagined thing

Like...I would hear somebody say something that I FELT was yelling or negative against me and so I would restate it ina question "what I heard you saying there was that you were really mad at me for breaking the glass" so that they could respond with their REAL emotions instead of the ones I was placing on them "No I wasn't mad at you for breaking the glass...I was worried you hurt yourself, are you OK"

once I was comfortablish (because I feel like a tool doing it now even though I know it helps all of us so I am never COMFORTABLE, you know) then I worked on visualizing how I wanted to feel and where I wanted to be.

I read the book the secret and worked really hard at stopping negative thoughts and phrasing things in different ways
so instead of saying
I won't get fired
I said
I WILL stay employed

the meaning is the same but one has negative words and one has positive words, if that makes sense

once you start using postive words it helps boost your mental attitude

I also got sick less and became healthier without actually doing anything different than changing negative words to positive ones

I won't have to walk far
to
I will be close to where I need to be
ugh..I figgied...sorry
thanks,Coach!!
wow, it's been a while since anyone has figgied! Very fitting that it was the originator of the faux pas!!!
figgy, kat, bnd--sorry, somehow I didn't see your posts until just now! thank you. I understand what you're saying. I do some energy work, as does D14 (who's far better at it than I am) and so I am very aware of the effect of negative thoughts and projections, and the power of visualization. now--if I just knew what to visualize!

actually, today is the first day of Lent. Very cool thing--my daughter was the one giving me ashes in church this morning! I've decided the timing is perfect--my Lenten practice will be to try to look forward instead of just watching my feet so I don't fall. reconnect with some dreams. follow my bliss. it's as good a spiritual practice as any.
This probably isn't what you want to hear, Hoozhasawhatchamacallit, but I STILL have this "waiting for the other shoe to drop" feeling, 2 1/2 years later.

I'm beginning to wonder if it EVER goes away.

Pupster
ugh--no, it's not what I wanted to hear!! I honestly think there's a big element of PTSD in so many situations here--a psycho/physiological response to sudden unexpected trauma with painful repercussions. Even when events aren't sudden or there were some advance warnings, no one can really anticipate how broad or how deep the trauma goes once it begins.

I'm coming up on 2 years myself. Still find it necessary to consciously relax. Still have to consciously look for things to be grateful for--but I'm getting better at that.
Just wanted to stop by and see how you are doing. smile

kat
thanks, kat. I'm doing fine. In the midst of a blissfully uneventful period of time.

potential good news, tho. I have an interview on Monday afternoon for a research position at the IU Medical Center. A friend works there and she passed along my resume. It would be a M-F position with a salary much more commensurate with my experience. I know nothing about research, but I have had positions with steep learning curves in the past and done well. I'm excited about the prospect, but afraid to get my hopes up too far.
Congrats, Hoozh!!!
Good things come to you when you let them. It seems so simple but it is the hardest thing to do. Congrats!

kat

P.S. Give yourself permission to "see" yourself getting that job. smile
Good luck with the new employment prospect!!! smile
Time to use the Secret principle. Start thinking as if you gotten job already... Being a VERY pessimistic person , I have to admit, it has worked for me several times...
Good Luck!
At the very least, see this as the beginning of many jobs that you might get. You are a person, I think, who likes to challenge herself, and is inquisitive about the world and the things within your career --- so, why should they not see that, if I can from a thousand miles away, and having not met you in person.

Go H'mama Go!!!! Woohoo! grin
Thank you all! I actually have begun to think as if I already have the job--trying not to count my chickens before they're hatched, so to speak, but still visualizing.

And BeingMe, you're absolutely right. I've had some challenging positions, and the ones I've enjoyed the most were the ones that required the most growth and the most learning. My resume is kind of impressive--after 32 years of a variety of positions--so I'm hoping they've already had a positive impression.
Good luck!
Been praying all week for your job and financial success, Hoozh. I'm feeling GOOD about this one!!

Puppy
Thank you all! I'm feeling pretty good about it, too. I love the work I'm doing, but it just doesn't pay well enough. I'm a little concerned about a job in research, because I am soooooooo not a detail person, but I've always been able to adjust as needed. And not having to obsess over money would be a wonderful thing!
Keeping you in my prayers HM, I hope this is the job for you smile
thank you!
praying for you and your job success...I may be looking for a new job again too

it is a leap of faith

we have to remember the leaping part!!! We can't just scoot to the end and look over

1
2
3

jump!!!!!
absolutely, figgy!

I talked with my research nurse friend at our daughters' volleyball game tonite; she had given me some stuff to read about research, and I was thinking--wow! this is gonna be some steep learning curve for sure. but she said she forgot to mention there's an 8-12 week training period, and I wouldn't be expected to jump in and just start. what a relief!! my last 2 positions I jumped in and made my own way--and I forgot it isn't always like that.
*update*
got a call on my way to work--the woman with whom I'm supposed to interview had a death in the family and won't be in this week. they'll call me next week to reschedule. it's okay.

so here I sit, dressed up and looking quite professional, good hair day, with my eyebrows threaded and my hair freshly retouched. ah, well. all dressed up and nowhere to go!
Good practice run then.

How about taking yourself out to some place with people like Starbucks? Treat yourself and enjoy the day.
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
Good practice run then.

How about taking yourself out to some place with people like Starbucks? Treat yourself and enjoy the day.

as much as I'd love to do that, I gotta work! trying to dodge bodily fluids in my nice outfit...the interview was scheduled for the end of the workday.

but yes, you're right--good practice run.
I'd like some advice or shared experience about this.

For the past year and a half or so, I have periodically considered writing letters to my former in-laws, partly as closure, partly to give them "the other side of the story." I wouldn't expect any change in their behavior, but it would hopefully help toward that closure thing, as well as perhaps feeling heard and a little less victimized. But I've never actually sat down to write, and I'm kinda tired of mulling it over and want to come to a decision.

Here's the deal, for those who haven't been following along:
I have no family; I was an only child, both parents long gone, no extended family in contact for 30+ years. xH's family was my only family, and we were part of each others' lives for over 15 years; I have nieces and nephews I've known for their whole lives. When xH first dropped the bomb, I contacted the brother he's closest to, whose wife is an psychiatrist; initially they were very supportive, willing to "talk some sense" into him. But once he called them, they suddenly asked me not to contact them again. And I haven't, except to ask that they continue to include D14 in family activities as always (which they've done, altho the family gets together less often now). I"ve heard nothing from the other brother; got a birthday email from his wife a year ago saying they hadn't been in contact "because they didn't want to take sides." (I had not talked with them since before the bomb.) Nothing at all from his parents, except that his mom sends greetings thru my daughter after holiday gatherings. OW joined the family dinner on Thanksgiving; according to D14 (altho I didn't ask) only 1 SIL actually talked much with her--the one who knew her 28 years ago and who had a similar profession. Grandpa spent the day in a different room from her rather than sleeping in front of the TV as he has always done. That's about all I know about their interaction; I'm not sure why xH and OW have not married at this point, since he left to be with her almost 2 years ago.

I'm alternately angry and hurt about having been cut off by the family. My note would not be angry in tone, just briefly stating that I was totally against the divorce, did what I could to keep my family together, and grieve the loss of my family (including former in-laws), and offering to remain in touch with anyone who felt comfortable doing so. I don't intend to trash my xH--this is an Italian family, after all, and blood is waaaaay thicker than anything else. I do intend, however, to be open about being blindsided and being aware that OW was the impetus behind the split--because that is the truth. This was far less MLC than an exit affair. I have no idea what he has told them, but it's doubtful that it's the same truth I"ve been living. And while I may not have been the perfect wife for whatever reason, my family was the most important thing in the world to me and I would have given anything to work on the marriage rather than splitting so suddenly.

so--what has your experience been in dealing with former in-laws? I would say that the fact that I have no other family sorta complicates my feelings about this, but the fact remains that they have cut off contact without any communication at all--and that's not healthy for them, or for me, or for D14. Any advice or experience you'd share would be most welcome! Thanks.
I haven't spoken to my former in laws in two years. His Mom and I got into our first ever argument right around Easter. She was furious at her son but so afraid that they wouldn't get to see him if they said anything. Not a very stable family anyhow and I can see how their adopted only child could get away with murder.

So I haven't called except when I apologized. she wouldn't talk to me so I told my then FIL. Either he never told her or she didn't believe him. In the situation I am better off. She knew I was always there for them but they chose not to be there for me on more than one occasion.

So that book is closed and I am on to new adventures. Just my short story.

kat
At this point HM...I would suggest to do whatever itis YOU want to do. If writing a letter would make you feel a sense of closure then do it...you have nothing to lose and in the end if that is the only thing you have gained...that is better than before.

I would be careful to enter it with no expectations...

I did write a letter to my former mother in law who was very in touch with the fact that her son is a sociopath (diagnosed by the way...and she fully knew)

I remained in contact with them for a bit but the situation became too awkward for me and confusing for my children since he was their step-dad, albeit the only dad they had really known...

it was painful and awkward and I dreaded running into him and...in the end...they were not my family...there were too many lies and things overlooked or looked past. I have random contact with his sister and brother and their respective spouses but more in passing and nothing deep.


if you would not feel rejected if they did not reach out to you then I say go for it...if you would then I would reconsider
hm,
Lost in-laws and family. Of the many collateral damages in a D, this is one of the most painful. And given your background, it hurts and isolates you all the more.

When you say you've
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
considered writing letters to my former in-laws
do you mean all of them, or just FIL & MIL?

My suggestions would be:

- Write it, to MIL & FIL only.
- Pen and paper and snail mail. No email.
- Keep it as short as possible.
- Post it here before you send it. You'll get great feedback & editing.

After you're done writing your final version, apply the 48-hour rule and just put it away for two days. Then reread it.

If:
- You still think it's a good idea.
- It says exactly what you want to say to them.
- It has a chance of accomplishing what you want it to accomplish.

Then mail it.
thanks, all. (oh, keep 'em coming!)

figgy--the thing is, I don't know what I want to do. Some days I just want to fuhgettaboutit, other days I know I want to say good bye, and almost always I find myself composing something in my head. I've been waiting to feel more definite one way or the other. And since the 2-year mark is coming up, I don't want to let it get away from me.

gardener--there's some real wisdom and practical advice there--thanks. Yes, I was thinking of writing all of them. MIL and FIL are very limited in their insight and wisdom, and increasingly so with age. (and I'd have to type it, print it, and mail it for them to be able to read). xH's brothers and their wives are (usually) much more reasonable and sane. I was much closer to them than to MIL and FIL. posting it here and waiting 48 hours is an excellent idea.

btw--in the first week after the bomb, xH was certain I could still be part of family activities! clearly that wasn't going to happen--it was one of those things they tell themselves to make it ok.
I agree with Gardener, Hmama. Take it slow with the letter. Mull it over. I don't see anything, however, wrong with contacting those you were close to, i.e. sisters-in-law, etc.

My brother-in-law is in a similar situation. He has no family there (he lives very far away from any of us). So, as the process of the D continues, he tries to keep things calm. If he is invited to family events, he goes. Fortunately, his D has proceeded very well, as much as a D can. Lots of mediation, children in counselling, etc. It was his W who left, but there doesn't appear to be an OM. I think the loss of extended family is a common thing. It probably hits the kids too. But, he and my H are victims of D, so I guess they have experience.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Yes, I was thinking of writing all of them. MIL and FIL are very limited in their insight and wisdom, and increasingly so with age. (and I'd have to type it, print it, and mail it for them to be able to read). xH's brothers and their wives are (usually) much more reasonable and sane. I was much closer to them than to MIL and FIL.
Great. Makes a lot of sense. In-laws usually fade away eventually. Sound like you've got some good ones. Don't let them.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
btw--in the first week after the bomb, xH was certain I could still be part of family activities! clearly that wasn't going to happen--it was one of those things they tell themselves to make it ok.
It is one of those things they do.
I'm also a child of divorce (altho my dad actually died before the divorce was filed--they were separated for over a year when he died). and that's why I don't know my relatives. none of my dad's family lived near us, and altho he was the oldest of 12 (!) I think there was some conflict with my mother somewhere along the line. I don't want this to happen to my daughter--which is why I was VERY clear that I want them to continue to include her even if they don't communicate with me.
well, I'm not so sure how good they are. I truly expected them to support the marriage--I'd known them for a long time. And they didn't at all, except my oldest niece (who's an adult, an attorney). and she's kind of faded away too. Of course, I have no way of knowing what he told them about me and about our marriage, so they could well be operating under false pretenses. If they fade away, that's one thing, but the "cut-off" is a far more dysfunctional action (according to family systems theory).
I sorta brought this up with D14 last evening; she rolled her eyes and said something sarcastic (but very accurate!) about Italian men. But she had a very good idea--just write notes to the women in the family (all of whom married into it). She went on about how various people told her they missed me at Thanksgiving (which she didn't tell me before), including my youngest nephew (age 11) who REALLY misses me. And she said she wasn't going to attend any more family functions is OW was going to be there.

Just to be clear--I wasn't asking for her advice or support, but I knew it might affect her if I do this. Perhaps I should have waited until after I sent the notes...
I got an email from my BIL's father seeing how I was doing. That was a few months ago. The BIL lives in Seattle. March 2009, after we had a breakthrough that lasted for two weeks, I was actually pricing motor homes. We were going to rent one this summer, take two weeks off together, and drive across the country.

I bet she's forgotten that.

I doubt I'll ever see W's older sister and that BIL again. They don't come back much and her older sister and I never got along. She has W's depression issues without W's sweetness. Her husband is a saint.

I'm sure I'll continue to see the MIL occasionally because of the girls. I've made peace with her so if we stopped seeing each other, I'm OK with how it ended.

I've toyed with sending the younger sister a letter saying I'm glad she got her life in order. There's no hard feelings there either. Sure, W is using her family to fill her social void and as babysitters since I'm not there.

But it isn't their fault. If she were happy with me we wouldn't be in this situation.

In general, W's family is pretty screwed up. I've never been able to figure them out. I just pray the girls don't end up with their issues.
Quote:
if we stopped seeing each other, I'm OK with how it ended.


yeah--that's what I'm aiming at. being OK with how it ended. and right now I'm not. and I think that even if I get no response back of any kind, just having an opportunity to communicate and not just disappear off the planet to them would be healing for me.

I understand about not wanting my D to have the heritage of all these family issues. She feels quite separate from them and has for awhile because xH's brothers are considerably more affluent than we are, and their activities are quite different as a result. Funny--xH believes he's gotten away from the dysfunctional heritage of his father, but he's actually the brother who is most like him--immature, narcissisitic and unable to see much further than his own nose.
anyone else? how did you come to closure with in-laws when you never wanted to divorce them too?
My X divorced his parents numerous times during the course of our marriage. His mom is very bipolar and it went undiagnosed for years. He would cut off contact with them over what he perceived as their control issues. (Hello pot, this is the kettle!) They would call and I wouldn't dare answer the phone for fear of pissing him off. After we were separated (and he hadn't been in contact with them for over a year at that point) his mom tracked my mom down to see if we were okay. My mom told her that X was no longer living with us. My mom passed this on to me and my oldest daughter, who was about 19 at the time, ended up contacting her grandparents. From what I have been told X contacted them shortly thereafter to tell them his side of the story, because he didn't want to look like the bad guy. I'm not sure how he spun it with them. I hadn't spoken to them in quite some time and didn't have their contact info. I now have an address for them because D22 got it for her graduation announcement last year. I debated sending them a Christmas card last year. I didn't do it. I also debated sending them a letter. But we were never close, so I am not sure what to say. Primarily I want to apologize for not being strong enough to stand up against my X all the times he was shutting them out, so they could have developed more of a relationship with the kids. They have never even met the younger two kids, although apparently they do talk on the phone. I guess X still doesn't have much of a relationship with them. On their birthdays he will dial the phone and hand it to one of the kids to wish them a happy birthday. I don't think he really talks to them. In hindsight I should have seen what X was capable of based on how he treated his own family.
~bump~
Hmama, So far, I've just contacted SIL via email, phone and one visit. We've always been very close. From the beginning we "got" each other. I am going to work hard on keeping that one open, though I'm sure its frequency will dwindle with time (and I suspect X will try to poison that one, too, since it's her closest sister). Rest of X's 5 Siblings and Mother are pretty effed up and not involved with each so I've only got one loving SIL (and her H & S)

X's friends are another matter. I've lost quite a number of friends who believe you have to be in one camp or another. Some just suddenly shun you. I try not to take it personally.

Unavoidable loss and collateral damage all around.
Just thought I'd add my ramblings....

I love my ex's family, and it was hard to let them go. I had hoped we could stay close even after the divorce. Ultimately, I ended up drifting away from all of them but one of his sisters. She and I had a great friendship outside of the family relationship, so our friendship has survived. Unfortunately, she lives so far away I rarely see her.

At my daugther's wedding last summer, I saw them all again (and my ex of course) for the first time in probably 6 years. They were all very kind to me (and my new husband) and made me feel like I am still part of the family. I appreciated that a lot.

But at the same time...I was reminded why my ex-husband is who he is, how they do share many of the same traits that I did not admire in him, and how I am now a much happier person without them in my life. I felt bad about this for a long time, about not really missing them in my life even though I loved them so much at one time, and we all went through many life events together. But now I feel about them sort of like I feel about my high school graduating class. We knew each other and were very close and had comraderie for a certain number of years, and we were naive enough to believe our time together would forge ahead into the future (cue the "Grease" song, "We'll Always Be Together"). But in time, of course, you lose touch and don't even know these people anymore. Maybe you are lucky and keep one or two friends for life from that time, but mostly, they are now just people in your past. It hurts for awhile, that you feel you have lost a big family. But then you grow up, and you realize, hey, I probably wouldn't have chosen most of these people as friends as an adult.

It is/was kinda like that with my ex's family. I felt I had lost them, but then realized, I just outgrew them, and its ok...I don't have to feel a loss. I can just remember and cherish the good times we had and the love we all shared, and not feel the loss of them. I still have them, always will. Can't take away my memories or my experiences.

DQ
DQ,
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
But now I feel about them sort of like I feel about my high school graduating class. We knew each other and were very close and had comraderie for a certain number of years, and we were naive enough to believe our time together would forge ahead into the future (cue the "Grease" song, "We'll Always Be Together"). But in time, of course, you lose touch...
The perfect analogy!
I love it.
I just hope to be in as good a place as Dancing Queen in six years.

In six years D11 will be in her senior year of high school and D7 will be a freshman. So I'll be in the middle of teen angst and worrying about how to finance college.

W's family isn't very large and they all have issues. My failure was not remaining neutral and becoming essentially the man of their family as well.

I think that's what W wanted and was one of my big failings. I apologized for that last March and we had a two-week breakthrough that really gave me hope.

When I see the MIL she always gives me a big smile. I don't know what that means. W told me a long time ago that MIL is my biggest booster.

Deep down in "my never give up" place I believe that means some day W will wake up.

But that may be so long from now and she may just keep it to herself because she wouldn't want to admit she's wrong that it won't matter.

I was always cold towards them because of their issues. I'd look around at other extended families and they just seemed much more stable and fun and supportive.

W's family always had some disaster or wayward member that needed bailing out. I felt like they sucked the life out of W.

Finally, in March, I realized that when I married W, I married her family and, like it or not, I owed them my best.

So I was finally ready, but it turned out to be too late.

So now I've seen her little sister once in 10 months -- Christmas -- and her mom five times.

Now they just have each other.
thanks, everyone.

you have all helped me to reframe this in a far less "grieving" way. most of what you have said has occurred to me--but not all at once, and not coming from objectivity, as you have provided.

ALL that I ever had in common with his family was...family. They were not folks I'd have sought out to be friends with; one SIL just kind of negative and whiny (altho she had both parents, a very good marriage, 3 healthy kids and a million dollar home). We could always chat--but only about our kids. The other SIL was pleasant and as a physician, we had some things in common--but she grew up very wealthy and I certainly did not so we had little life experience that was similar at all. The BIL's were the strong, silent type--and very very...ummm, Republican. Wealthy, self-made, and quite unwilling to share resources I'd have spread around under the circumstances. In fact one of them once said something downright cruel and I got up and left the table because it was very pointed at our lack of wealth. Those two families had much in common, but far less so with us.

And the parent-in-law--wow, they're real pieces of work. Relatively normal when I met them 20 years ago, but increasingly emotionally immature and negative; many family gatherings got unpleasant because of FIL's sense of entitlement and underlying anger at life. MIL is probably fairly intellectually limited; wonderful with the grands when they were little, but could never see them as any older than kindergarten age--even as adults. And for the past 10 years at least, all we could discuss was my work schedule (she never seemed to remember that I no longer worked night shift--10 years later) and her latest foray to WalMart. Nice, kind lady, but tremendously anxiety ridden and with a world that never really extended beyond her front door.

I do really miss my nieces and nephews, and apparently some of them miss me too. Perhaps those relationships can come back around as they get older.

I'm feeling much less of a need to be "heard" (and I wouldn't necessarily be heard anyway), and far more like--as DQ put it so wisely--they're part of my past, we shared some wonderful things but those days are past.

I'm in a much better space right now, thanks to your wisdom--I appreciate you all!
D14's 8th grade graduation is coming up on June 1. It will be a ~2 hour Mass (with awards, etc.) followed by a dinner for parents and/or parents' significant others. I've been dreading this for months; I will be facing all my demons at once. xH, OW, xH's family (who aren't in contact), and parish/school staff (many of whom aren't speaking to me either--I used to work there and was sabotaged and malicious-rumored out of my ministry position). I'm inviting her godparents (one is a priest, who will likely concelebrate the mass, which will be very cool for D14), my in-town cousin, and perhaps a friend or two.

I was thinking--since D14 has had a really awful past 2 years at school with lots of bullying and even a teacher who intentionally excluded her from activities, it might be best to skip the dinner (I just cannot imagine how awkward it would be for everyone to sit at a table with xH and OW) and let her aunts/uncles/grandparents/cousins take D14 out to celebrate. She and I can celebrate a day earlier or later. xH seems agreeable to this--well, as usual all I got was "ok"--and it would save me, D14, and lots of other people a lot of stress. I haven't felt welcome at the parish in 2 years, so the dinner would be a stomach-in-knots affair even without xH and OW.

Interesting twist--my very good friend from Texas will be visiting during that time. I initially invited him to graduation, then thought better of it because--well, how awkward would that be?! I won't be at my best, by any means. He offered to "make himself scarce for a couple of hours" and we can meet up after graduation (and he can help me put myself back together, likely).

I sure hope that by the time high school graduation rolls around things will be less awkward and painful; I really anticipated things being different 2 years out, but it's still very uncomfortable. But I'm thinking I've probably got a decent plan worked out here. Not martyring at all about not joining the group for dinner celebration, because we'll have our own--and she loves her family and deserves to celebrate with them with a minimum of stress on her special day. She won't like it if OW is there, but her presence will be diluted by cousins and family so it will be ok.
~^~
If you aren't up to it, then don't do it.
now my co-workers are talking about attending graduation and rockin' it! doubt it will happen, but the thought of my rowdy, Missionary Baptist, gregarious work buds at a staid, reserved, long Catholic Mass is cracking me up!!
I know you have to do what is comfortable for you but, I think you should go and be the picture of calm, cool, collected grace. You know just be yourself smile
oh, there's no way I'd miss graduation! I was only thinking about skipping the dinner. In fact, skipping dinner seems the only gracious thing to do, since relatives are coming in from out of town and I'm sure they'd love to be able to celebrate with D14. I can sit thru graduation and look for all the world like I'm calm, cool, and graceful--it's just that I don't want to sit at a table with xH and OW indefinitely afterwards. Awkward for D14, too.
I would skip the dinner, too. Can you imagine your D caught in the middle and trying to make everyone feel comfortable? Yikes.

I like your Baptist friends! You need as many fun people around you during the ceremony as you can get.

Maybe witchy woman will spontaneously combust when she sets foot inside the church.

What's up with your Texas friend? Is he back to being supportive?

Hi, Andabelle!

yeah, the point with my daughter trying to make it all ok is exactly my point. Yeah, I'd be uncomfortable--but it's D14's night and she'd be more uncomfortable than I am. Better that she go and have fun with the aunts and uncles and cousins. We will celebrate at another time, and it will be ok.

I don't know whether my co-workers will actually come to graduation, but I went to a baptism for our secretary's daughter (with D14) and we had a great time; everyone will be completely scandalized but they won't be able to say a word because my friends are welcome and have enormous goodwill! This homogenous white Catholic church could use a little infusion of spontaneity and joy! As for witchy woman--one can only hope!!!

My Texas friend. Sigh. He's as supportive as he can be, I think, while juggling a million crises, an intensely busy work and business travel schedule, single parenthood with a 16-year-old daughter, and all that goes with that. While I still panic when it feels he's pulling away, most of the time I can see it's due to busy-ness and his own personal recovery from an unwanted divorce (our timetable was almost exactly the same, altho we didn't reconnect until about 9 months into it all). As opposed to actual pulling away--altho there is very definitely that rubber band pursue-evade thing that happens, but it isn't malicious--it just is. While I'd really be comfortable if he was still infatuated, I think we're getting an opportunity to get to know each other, and we're two pretty wounded people with years of therapy between us and it's just going to take awhile to see where this might go. In the meantime, there's some very nice trust and comfort levels and mutual support--and that's not a bad place to begin. The slowness, tho, plays havoc with my underlying abandonment issues at times.

Thanks for asking!
ps--if anyone has any wisdom along the lines of relationships-post-D, I'm open to hearing it. Obviously I have a lot of triggers and a lot of baggage--but learning to work with it in a way that feels safe. Unless I sabotage a potentially very good thing, that is.
hmama,
This is not wisdom and therefore not what you're looking for, but I plan on absolutely no relationship or contact.

She has violated, broken and nullified our friendship in so many ways and so many times that I am dropping her as I would any friend who did likewise.

I am fortunate, of course in that all the kids are grown and out and we had none together, so there's no co-parenting relationship to be defined.

Wiser folk will be along shortly, I'm sure.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hmama,
This is not wisdom and therefore not what you're looking for, but I plan on absolutely no relationship or contact.

She has violated, broken and nullified our friendship in so many ways and so many times that I am dropping her as I would any friend who did likewise.

I am fortunate, of course in that all the kids are grown and out and we had none together, so there's no co-parenting relationship to be defined.

Wiser folk will be along shortly, I'm sure.

oh, gardener--I was too vague!!

I meant--relationship with someone else! My relationship with xH is over except for co-parenting a really wonderful kid, and I'm very comfortable with it being limited to that.

I'm just trying to negotiate a sorta-kinda friendship/relationship with a good, kind man who lives 800 miles away, is sorting through his own issues and life, and with whom I share some amazing synchronicity and probably potential for something very positive. And dealing with my own self-doubt, triggers, baggage, and neediness in that. That's the relationship I was referring to in my last post!
oops. blush
Originally Posted By: Gardener
oops. blush

that's okay--I was vague!
I casually dated several people after I did lots of work on myself (about 2 years). I wanted to have fun but nothing serious...I didn't feel I was ready. I had several really good times, made some friends, discovered some people who needed to do more work on themselves with licensed professionals grin
and
I found Cori

In the beginning he was a wonderful, supportive friend that I had an amazing connection with

we started spending more time together and even though he lived 6 hours away, we spent many weekends together

after awhile of dating and becoming more serious (we both were a quite a bit nervous about this) lots of praying and soul searching and even friend adjusting (there were several people who did not approve of our relationship for several reasons, some valid, some not) we decided to risk it

I found him to be a tremendous blessing and one can not receive great rewards without some risks...but I had to be very willing to lose it too...you know, faith

so far we are doing wonderfully
there are some hiccups but we have done lots of hard work on ourselves and we did lots of hard work together to get to the point where we are

slow
steady
hard work
risks
faith
jacking this thread for a sec.

Fig.

You're awesome. : )
thanks, fig.

I've never really casually dated. I've had a handful of relationships that almost all grew out of good friendships. So when people suggest I date around, it's kind of a foreign concept to me.

And this one, too, began as a very good friendship--a very close and very comfortable one about 28 years ago. And the reconnection has been warm and supportive, with some sparks. This will develop slowly if it develops into something more--and that's fine.

I don't know where it will go; I don't even know where I want it to go. I just want to keep doors and windows open to what might develop and listen to God whispering to us. We each have a lot of healing to accomplish--and we've each come a long way in the 2 years-or-so since our respective spouses left. But feeling accepted unconditionally and loved (without defining what type of love--good thing we're not Greek!) is a very healing thing, and that's what we've been able to provide for each other on this journey. It's a good start.
hm, Sounds like you are doing fine. Slow. Steady.
Comfortable, warm, supporting,
Keep working on your healing.

Allow it to be as it will be.
Allow you to be as you will be.

You write this chapter of your life - with a beginner's mind: no shouldas, havetas, gottas. Write your chapter. Imagine it: what would it really look, feel like, sound like and taste like if it was hoosiermama's own, very-own-just-for-me-chapter-in-my-story?

Take advice with a big grain of salt. No one who answers and advises you (including me) is hoosiermama.
You are.

If you want, you can read my Goals in the Goals thread. But no need: the bottom line is 35 years of doing it by the book, honoring obligations, putting everything and everybody else first, even before me.

Now me.
I've only got a few chapters left. I'm gonna write 'em.

Do what feels right with your friend. See if he fits into your chapter once you've envisioned it and dreamed it.
Thanks Jack
Posted By: Drew Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 03/09/10 07:29 PM
But don't put yourself on a timeline. You never know when that special someone is going to walk into your life. It could be today, it could be tomorrow, it could be two years from now, you just don't know.

And sometimes it happens when you aren't even looking .... smile
Originally Posted By: Drew
But don't put yourself on a timeline. You never know when that special someone is going to walk into your life. It could be today, it could be tomorrow, it could be two years from now, you just don't know.

And sometimes it happens when you aren't even looking .... smile

...and that's how this one was. No contact for ~19 years, lives went on. Then our gym teacher wore a shirt one day that said Texas, and for some reason I thought "hmmm--didn't Brian end up in Texas? think I'm gonna google him and see if I can find what he's up to." And there he was--his faculty page, he's now a professor. shot him an email, he replied; his wife walked out a month before my husband did--about 8 months prior to this reconnection. and we chatted on, and the rest is history. I immediately felt "at home" in talking with him. In our 20's, we used to talk for hours about everything.
thanks, gardener. you have a lot of wisdom.

I have a 14-year-old daughter starting high school in August. For now, her needs take priority--but that's as it should be, and as I want it to be. She and I are writing this next chapter.

Interesting--one of the things I struggle with is forming hopes and dreams for myself. I want D14 to be well and happy, I would very much like to love and be loved by someone deserving. but beyond that--I don't know. those muscles have atrophied! I've helped 2 husbands now get educations and establish careers while I essentially put myself on hold--and that didn't turn out so well; now I'm alone and if I had focused on my own career I'd be more financially stable. I'm not saying that because I'm bitter, but it illustrates what happens when we continually defer our happiness for that of someone else--who doesn't deserve the sacrifice.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I'm not saying that because I'm bitter, but it illustrates what happens when we continually defer our happiness for that of someone else--who doesn't deserve the sacrifice
I understand.
And of course having a D14 limits the options on writing your next chapter...somewhat. Keep in mind, though, that she will be watching you write it.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I'm not saying that because I'm bitter, but it illustrates what happens when we continually defer our happiness for that of someone else--who doesn't deserve the sacrifice
I understand.
And of course having a D14 limits the options on writing your next chapter...somewhat. Keep in mind, though, that she will be watching you write it.

excellent point, gardener. and honestly, that is always at the front of my mind. she watched me crumble in the beginning; hopefully she has watched me rise from the ashes more recently.

and I'm thinking that being a mom of a teenager is not so much a limitation as a need to focus my options. and that's okay.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
and I'm thinking that being a mom of a teenager is not so much a limitation as a need to focus my options. and that's okay.
An excellent way of framing it, approaching it.
Texas guy has been really kind and supportive about graduation--thinks he probably wants to attend but thinks we should decide closer to the actual date. He's described my whole mental process to a "T"--and explained that he knew all that because he's done it himself a million times. And that I'll be fine and will handle it with grace.

Seems a few walls have fallen with him over the past week; more than likely they'll go back up, but we can always hope!! He's travelling the rest of the week then taking his girls skiing over spring break, so I probably won't hear from him for a week or two.

I really need to get out of my head a bit more than I do; I just tend to lose perspective and everything becomes far more intense than it needs to be. And this just isn't me--except since the bomb. My world has shrunk so much, and there are weeks when I don't talk to anyone except my co-worker, my kids at school and my daughter.

This morning my fb screen suggested I add xH as a friend!! NOT!! Besides, he's "in a relationship" so I certainly wouldn't want to inadvertenly interfere with that!!
Funny I had the ex suggestion too!! Like you might know this person and "friend" them...oh get real.

Have they rescheduled your interview yet? At least this gives you some more time to find out about the company and brush up on some skills if necessary. I know you will do great when you get to the interview.

Old friends/flames are prominent in my life right now too. I rushed a bit on one situation and so I have pulled in the reigns a bit. Everything will come in time.

kat
ah--thanks for asking! The interview is this afternoon at 4:15. I played phone tag with the contact person on Monday, then we connected yesterday afternoon and scheduled for today. although when I tried to do the online application I went thru all the steps and then got the "not accepting applications at this time" message. Not sure what's up with that! But she already has my resume.

I know the fb "friend" thing is just a matter of having mutual friends on there--but it's kinda funny! I'm tempted to friend him and write a bunch of suggestive messages so that wiccawoman would feel threatened!! lol!

yes, that "pulling in the reins" thing works amazingly well. another counter-intuitive thing, and sometimes hard to do, at least for me!
I will be keeping my fingers crossed!

kat
thank you!

I really hate the thought of leaving this school. I love the work, I love the kids for the most part, there's such a need and it's possible to do so much good here, I have friends here (and nowhere else, really), and I AM Nurse Hoosiermama to everyone. I fit, there are connections, there's some attachment. If only I made a suitable salary!!

(the above paragraph should not be read as "waffling," simply as anticipatory grief.)

what will be, will be. I have faith that God will make the appropriate decisions here.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
My world has shrunk so much...
And sometimes that's the absolute worst part!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
My world has shrunk so much...
And sometimes that's the absolute worst part!

oh, yeah. sometimes I look around and wonder--where'd everybody go?! (and why'd everybody go?!) having so few attachments to people is a genuine physical stressor--not sure I realized that until I began reading about recovering from abandonment.
the interview went ok. it was kind of odd--the nursing manager and a couple of the other nurses just told me about the tasks the job entails. never got a real clear overview. and they didn't ask me any questions at all. there are apparently 2 positions open right now, and they hope to fill them in the next couple of weeks. that would mean I wouldn't finish out the school year--and that seriously bums me out. we shall see how this turns out.

went by myself and painted pottery tonight--made D14 a cross with her name on it for 8th grade graduation, and it turned out pretty well (as much as I can tell before firing, that is).

and the good news is--D14 got the part of Mary in the school's Living Stations of the Cross!! She wanted it badly, and she wrote a wonderful essay (a requirement) about why she'd be a good choice for the role. she's thrilled!! and so am I. so good to have something good happen for her for once!!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
My world has shrunk so much...
And sometimes that's the absolute worst part!

oh, yeah. sometimes I look around and wonder--where'd everybody go?! (and why'd everybody go?!) having so few attachments to people is a genuine physical stressor--not sure I realized that until I began reading about recovering from abandonment.
Recently somebody posted - I forget who - (was it you?) that it would almost have been better if Spouse had died.

The abandonment feels like like he or might as well have. But the circle of friends and loved ones would have tightened, gathered around us, supported us, lifted us up, included us.

Instead, even though an emotional "death," an emotional "widowhood", if you will, has taken place and is every bit as debilitating, the opposite happens: the circle disperses, feels awkward, figures, "hey, it's over; move on."

An extreme analogy, perhaps but I remember reading it and thinking, "Exactly!"

Good for you on the interview. Sometimes interviewers are just as nervous as interviewees. And some interviewers just out-and-out stink at it. Very few managers with hiring authority - in any discipline or industry - get any training on conducting interviews. Go figure.

Glad your daughter got the part. And I'm sure the cross will be beautiful when its done.
thanks, gardener. and sadly, it's not just emotional widowhood, it's also emotional orphan-ing--D14 has had next to no support from friends, family, school, church(es). but had her father died rather than left us for an adulterous relationship, all of those groups would have gathered round and supported her, made sure she had resources to get thru it. People ought to be ashamed, really. I actually told her principal that--that by failing to address bullying by other students and one particular teacher, he's made a difficult time in her life even worse. No response, of course.

I have a second interview next week (St. Patrick's Day) with the medical director/primary investigator (it's a research position). he wasn't able to be there yesterday because of child care issues. I'm really bummed about perhaps not being able to finish out the school year--I'm hoping somehow things will work out otherwise. If I get hired, that is!

I had an interesting revelation today that keeps unfolding for me. Can't remember the thread, but it was a discussion about what women want in men--to be loved, respected, cherished, protected, and to have leadership. and it dawned on me--YES!! absolutely. I've been in marriages where I had to do it all--and felt disrespected, unloved, certainly never protected but often abandoned during bad times. For years I hated myself for being unable to resolve my persistent resentment--but it was about that. And somehow I expected myself, as a 20th century professional woman, not to need those things. I just didn't get it. Now, stepping back and having some perspective, I get it. I was aware that I made poor choices--but I don't think I really understood quite why they were poor, so I wasn't sure I'd ever trust myself again. I feel like a weight has been lifted!!!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
thanks, gardener. People ought to be ashamed, really. I actually told her principal that--that by failing to address bullying by other students and one particular teacher, he's made a difficult time in her life even worse. No response, of course.
Of course, you're right. Mine are all in their thirties so I failed to realize that other very real side of it; the divorce orphan.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I had an interesting revelation today that keeps unfolding for me. Can't remember the thread, but it was a discussion about what women want in men--to be loved, respected, cherished, protected, and to have leadership. and it dawned on me--YES!! absolutely. I've been in marriages where I had to do it all--and felt disrespected, unloved, certainly never protected but often abandoned during bad times. For years I hated myself for being unable to resolve my persistent resentment--but it was about that. And somehow I expected myself, as a 20th century professional woman, not to need those things. I just didn't get it. Now, stepping back and having some perspective, I get it. I was aware that I made poor choices--but I don't think I really understood quite why they were poor, so I wasn't sure I'd ever trust myself again. I feel like a weight has been lifted!!!
Very interesting insight. My theory of resentment, discussed ad nauseam on my last thread a few months back is this: We don't - can't - resent another person for their actions or inactions. Such resentment is misdirected so we don't have to point it inwards and admit we resent ourselves. Resent ourselves for accepting the unacceptable, for not speaking up, speaking out, making our needs known, setting boundaries, etc.

Anyway, when it dawned on me, it certainly resonated with me: I didn't resent her. After all, I think resentment builds up over time, through repetition. I resented my own growing acquiescing. And this was very uncharacteristic of me. At some point over the years I became too agreeable, too acquiescing. Lost me no small measure of respect in her estimation, I'm sure.

that's very insightful, gardener. worth some pondering--was I angry/resentful of him or of myself for letting myself become invisible and unimportant?! I think I consciously tried not to have many legitimate needs so I'd be low-maintenance and not "bothersome." family of origin crap, there. but you can't deny your needs--for sleep, for intimacy, for trust, for love, for feeling valued. it blows up in your face if you do that.

and it's been an interesting study--he chose someone with a very dominant personality, intent on getting her needs met no matter what, requiring a lot of sacrifice (this time around and 25+ years ago). And he's doing all those things for her he refused to do for me--footrubs after a long day at work, fixing things on the farm, mucking out horse stalls. for me/our family the man wouldn't change lightbulbs. and it made me nuts at first--if he'd only been open to doing those things, I wouldn't have been so resentful, I would have felt more loved and protected. well, duh! I didn't require anything! and because he's profoundly selfish and quite immature, that was license not to go outside his comfort zone. he did and got pretty much all he wanted, and I asked for nothing--and I got nothing. And kinda the same with my first marriage, only that one became abusive pretty quickly and I was the one who left.

I'm getting insight into that whole concept of Why Men Love Bitches. I think I was the female equivalent of the Nice Guy, and it was boring and I was angry and resentful--and you're right, probably more at myself than at him. He was who he was, after all, and I knew it when I married him. I just kept expecting the man who courted me to reappear, but that was a very temporary character.

lots of lightbulbs going off today! now I need to learn how to integrate this understanding into a behavior change. if you've spent your whole life trying not to be a bother, how do you switch into a more "I'm worth it and I expect to be treated with love, respect, kindness, protection, and leadership?" attitude?
Quote:
if you've spent your whole life trying not to be a bother, how do you switch into a more "I'm worth it and I expect to be treated with love, respect, kindness, protection, and leadership?" attitude?

There's the rub, Hmama! Changing the behaviour. I have the same problem.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Quote:
if you've spent your whole life trying not to be a bother, how do you switch into a more "I'm worth it and I expect to be treated with love, respect, kindness, protection, and leadership?" attitude?

There's the rub, Hmama! Changing the behaviour. I have the same problem.

I'm thinking (hoping, actually) that some change will come as a direct result of seeing this so differently, of understanding my mistakes at a heart level. But beyond that--wow, I'm open to ideas! how does a doormat become more b*tchy?! (I mean that as--more self-protective, confident, self-assured!)
BM & hm,
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
if you've spent your whole life trying not to be a bother, how do you switch into a more "I'm worth it and I expect to be treated with love, respect, kindness, protection, and leadership?" attitude?

There's the rub, Hmama! Changing the behaviour. I have the same problem.
Keep this with you or someplace where you'll see it often:

If you always do what you've always done then you'll always get what you've always gotten.

Or, better yet, write this down and keep it with you. wink
May not always work, but I think it's a good in-your-face reminder not to do what comes naturally, automatically.

Decades of automatic "self-less" behavior is tough to buck (says the man who is struggling mightily through No More Mr. Nice Guy).
yeah--I think I'm the feminine equivalent of the Nice Guy.

those natural, automatic responses are tough to break. I mean, I certainly grasp the concept of "do something different if you want different results"--I think that's the motivation part. I think there's also a skill component, and that's what concerns me. how do you get those skills? what are those skills?!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
how does a doormat become more b*tchy?! (I mean that as--more self-protective, confident, self-assured!)
Hers's another thought: respond/react to every potential "doormat" situation as though it was about to happen/be done to D14. GRRR!!!
Be your own "Mama Bear!
After all, it's our own "inner child" that learned this behavior to adapt, to survive. Be that child's Mama Bear. That child needed/still needs an adult to protect him/her.

Or, as I heard author Terry Real once put it, "It's time to tell that child to take his sticky little fingers off the steering wheel. You'll drive now."
wow, gardener, that's brilliant in it's simplicity!!! and something that makes sense. and actually uses familiar concepts--that whole inner child business.

I can actually imagine an inner dialogue, with that kid saying, "yeah, you thought you got it before, and look what you did--you chose another loser/user!" I learned a lot the last time, tho, and I've learned a lot this time. and I learned a lot about myself and how life works in-between. that's a lot of hard-won wisdom and hard work.
I like it, Gardner. I'm going to start doing that, myself (what if somebody did whatever to my Autistic kid? I surely wouldn't let it pass!).

You sound good, HM. Lots of little epiphanies lately!
It was very hard for me to break the people pleaser pattern too...
and
sometimes I slip back into it as it is familiar
however
the longer I treat myself with the same respect I give other people, the harder it is to slip back into familiar behaviors

mama bear is a great analogy

protect yourself as much, if not more than you protect everyone else
we need to be as kind and accomodating to ourselves as we would be with other people

when we start to do that, people will respond

I teach my children and my students that people will treat us how we expect them too

it was tough for me to learn the lesson I was supposidly teaching
Originally Posted By: Andabelle
I like it, Gardner. I'm going to start doing that, myself (what if somebody did whatever to my Autistic kid? I surely wouldn't let it pass!).

You sound good, HM. Lots of little epiphanies lately!

yes--lots of epiphanies! when one is ready, it happens. I tried and tried to push to get to this point but without success--I wasn't ready. and while I knew these things in my head, now I know them at a deeper level, which makes all the difference.
hm,
Thanks, and I think you got this part right as long as it's you saying
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama

"yeah, you thought you got it before, and look what you did--you chose another loser/user!"
to your inner child and not the child chiding you for it. It's the adaptive child that probably made the lion's share of the choice (those sticky little fingers on the steering wheel again!)

In a three day seminar, Terry Real had us do an overnight homework assignment: Adult us writing a letter to adaptive child us. Basic framework: Acknowledging, praising and thanking adaptive child us for all the traits, strengths and coping mechanisms he/she developed to survive. It worked. You survived. We survived because of what you did. But those ways don't work anymore in an adult world, so I'll take over from here. You go back to being a child, maybe for the first time, ever. Your job is to keep me giddy, playful, full of wonder, and healthfully child-like. All this adult stuff? I've got it from here. I've got your back.

Very powerful, emotional stuff. Did it 5 years ago and I've still kept it.
that's so true--and I knew it, that we teach people how to treat us.

it was frustrating to me to know that xH does all the things for OW he refused to do for me/for our family--but she expects it, and I long ago lost that expectation. If he failed to fix or do something, I did it. I enabled it. I didn't see an alternative--but I also didn't expect that he'd take care of me in any way. so he didn't. hard lesson to learn, but it sticks with me that way.

I never thought of myself as a people pleaser--because, honestly, I'm pretty assertive and self-assured in other areas of my life. but it seems I have always had to "earn" love. and while you don't enter a relationship with that awareness, it eventually becomes like that frog in the boiling pot of water--it happens slowly, over time, and you don't notice, and there you are in a non-survivable situation.

sadly, I think I project this stuff into my current fledgling relationship. I feel him pulling away, or he'll inadvertently say something that hits me wrong, and while he may just be very busy, to me it feels like intentional and cruel abandonment. and I overreact. and he's very patient, and I'm learning that he's not my xH.

sigh. lots of epiphanies.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I think there's also a skill component, and that's what concerns me. how do you get those skills? what are those skills?!
The first skill I'm working on and beginning to use is to simply:
Pause.
Pause after someone finishes speaking/asking/complaining. Pause a beat or two or three (which feels like ten minutes!) to break the "automatic". That's enough for now, a good first step for me. Maybe, eventually, the pause will become longer and I'll process. And Consider. And decide.
That pause alone is beginning - beginning - to put an end to the word that always automatically pops out whenever anybody asks me anything: "SURE!" crazy

But it's still a struggle.
wow, gardener...this is good stuff. I remember doing this about 20 years ago, after my first divorce. it's time to revisit the adaptive child with my wiser, gentler adult. maybe she'll listen this time!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I think there's also a skill component, and that's what concerns me. how do you get those skills? what are those skills?!
The first skill I'm working on and beginning to use is to simply:
Pause.
Pause after someone finishes speaking/asking/complaining. Pause a beat or two or three (which feels like ten minutes!) to break the "automatic". That's enough for now, a good first step for me. Maybe, eventually, the pause will become longer and I'll process. And Consider. And decide.
That pause alone is beginning - beginning - to put an end to the word that always automatically pops out whenever anybody asks me anything: "SURE!" crazy

But it's still a struggle.

oops--cross-posted.

pause. consider. think. feel. I like it!

I'm really not one of those people who can't say no in general. it's just in romantic relationships that I subvert my own needs--and don't even realize I'm doing it until I can look back at it. and it seems I'll put up with almost any crap behavior from an intimate partner as long as it starts out normally.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I'm really not one of those people who can't say no in general. it's just in romantic relationships that I subvert my own needs--and don't even realize I'm doing it until I can look back at it. and it seems I'll put up with almost any crap behavior from an intimate partner as long as it starts out normally.
I understand. I'm not that way with everybody, in every area of life. Just friends, family. Loved ones.
But that's more than enough to need to finally address it, take it on.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I'm really not one of those people who can't say no in general. it's just in romantic relationships that I subvert my own needs--and don't even realize I'm doing it until I can look back at it. and it seems I'll put up with almost any crap behavior from an intimate partner as long as it starts out normally.
I understand. I'm not that way with everybody, in every area of life. Just friends, family. Loved ones.
But that's more than enough to need to finally address it, take it on.

I think the main reason I'm like this in intimate relationships is my general lack of attachments. I've finally realized I'm not neurotic, that we have a need to feel attached to others, and my life has had intervals (including now) with very limited attachments and connections. I've long been aware that almost every mistake I've ever made relationally has been because of this. It's not a fear of being alone as I once thought--it's not having that basic need of feeling connected being met. And while I'm working on that, it just isn't happening very quickly at all.
Hi Hoosh...I thought I'd chime in.

I LOVE the "bitch" books. Love love love them. Not that they are a mantra for me, but they are just so useful in terms of general knowledge to have when you are navigating through a romantic relationship...of course for some people, the books will help in their daily life too, but as you describe, you are assertive in other areas of your life so you basically just need them in your romantic life.

You have asked rhetorically, how do you develop those skills?

I have some suggestions...these may or may not resonate with you, but I double dog dare you to try them! :0)

One suggestion is very simple: face yourself in the mirror daily in the morning, and tell yourself (outloud if you dare, silently if you don't want D to hear you) that you are THE BOMB, that you are worthy of love, that God loves you and you will one day make a man who loves you very very happy, that you are attractive inside and out, and that you will no longer accept less than all you deserve!

Do this everyday of your life, whether you are in a relationship or not!

It sounds corny, but it is inner self-worth building that you need to do. To be a bitch as described in the book, YOU have to know YOUR WORTH before anyone else can know it. One day, after doing this type of exercise for many many days, it will actually ring true to you. You'll be having a good hair day and having something to look forward to that day, you will be greeting the day in anticipation, and when you do the exercise, you'll actually believe it! Then you'll flip your hair and give yourself a cocky-flirty smile, and you'll suddenly see an amazingly beautiful woman shining back at you...even if only for a moment at first. You'll just have to trust me that this actually works. I've coached several girlfriends who needed a little bitch in their step with this practice, and they have all told me (after doing it for several days, weeks, even months) that eventually, they saw that gorgeous bitch in the mirror for a moment. From there, you can build on it.

A lot of women feel conceded to act as if they love themselves or feel beautiful. We seem to be taught to ignore our own beauty and to make sure that we come across as humble about it. And again, I'm not just talking about outer beauty but also inner beauty. But I think this is a load of crap. You can be humble while still feeling beautiful! You can speak privately to your own image in the mirror about this without ever even hinting to the world that you feel you are beautiful, so therefore, how can it be conceded? God wants you to love yourself. Any moment that you are mentally berating yourself in your mind (why am I so this or that, why can't I do anything right, etc), you are going against what God believes about you. In effect, he hears you and would say to you if you would listen "stop insulting my perfect child!"

Here's another suggestion...

Throw out all your granny panties and go buy some cute new ones! I mean this seriously. I know $$ is an issue for you, but do it incrementally if you have to. Spend at least $5 per pair. Buy 1 - 2 pairs every paycheck, and throw out 2 - 3 each time. If you already have some cute ones, great...keep them, but if they even have a little bit of worn out elastic or a little snag in them, toss 'em out. They are not worthy to be next to your body.

This isn't about anyone else. Its not about lingerie. Its about YOU treating YOURSELF in a very private and personally intimate way as if you are a beautiful woman. Put beautiful private things on your body that only you know about, and you'll have this great secret under your clothes every day. They don't have to be sexy, just pretty and whatever makes you feel happy. And NEW, they have to be NEW. OLD PANTIES gotta go...no self-respecting bitch will keep panties in her drawer that are pathetically worn out. Maybe you already do this exercise, don't be insulted if you already have high panty standards, LOL! I've just found that many moms don't bother with their own panty drawer much, so I'm making an assumption.

And finally one last suggestion...

Read an empowering book about a bitchy woman who inspires you. Go to the library and pick one deliberately to inspire you. This is all about you, so no suggestions from me. It can be fiction or non-fiction, romantic or not. But it has to be about a woman you admire and who you can mentally begin to model. By reading about her you can begin to pick up little hints and clues as to who she is inside and how she is able to pull off bitch-ness. Get inside her head and carry her thoughts around with you daily while you are reading it. Even if she has a tragic life or end to her life, as long as it is a woman you admire, it will be good for the exercise. Even bitches have tragedy, and avoiding tragedy is not the goal of a bitch...so if its a horribly tragic story of a wonderfully bitchy woman, that works just as well as a happy ending.

For those of you who don't know about the bitch books, please don't think I'm using the word in the usual sense. In the books, bitch is an acronym for babe.in.total.control.of.herself.

Hope you can actually try these suggestions. They are baby steps, but I promise you...from a somewhat naturally bitchy woman, I know how to do it, and have helped a few others become it. It will take years, there are no shortcuts. But it can work if you really want it. I can actually see you turning a corner already just by the things you are writing lately....

Good luck!

DQ
Ah, DQ--I'm blown away by the content and the volume of your post! It's always so humbling to me that someone I don't know can spend so much time and effort sharing their experience for my benefit!!

Got the panty thing down! I think I did that a little over a year ago--for exactly the reasons you described!! I even bought a few bra/panty sets. Also went thru my closet de-frumping it--and need to re-do that. Colored my hair lighter blonde (everyone I haven't seen for awhile seems very pleasantly surprised by that), changed some makeup colors and techniques.

Really I wasn't asking those questions rhetorically! So thank you for the practical advice. I have come a looooooong way over the past 2 years or so since the bomb. I occasionally do see a beautiful woman looking back from the mirror. But the daily affirmation and focus would be a good thing. Of course I still have some bad days, but they're just that--days, not weeks and years of not liking myself.

Much of this came from working hard to get thru some issues, but part of it came from someone finding me beautiful and sexually desirable. It's been soooo long since I've felt that way, and I just stopped thinking of myself as a sexual being. I thought that part of me had died. But now I feel more whole than I have felt in a very long time--I have that part of me back.

Thank you, thank you for caring enough to post DQ--and everyone else! I believe I am turning a corner, and I can't believe how wonderful that feels.
Oh Hoosier, thank you so much for what you are saying! You know, a lot of times, the types of suggestions I made for you just sound like a load of fluffy hype that won't do any good to a woman who really needs them. It sometimes sounds like just stupid things that may puff up your ego for a while, but won't make any long term difference....but these suggestions WILL make a difference! I'm so glad you felt the way you did about them. Its so important to really see yourself differently, and the only way to begin to do that is with some really tough self-love, like the mirror exercise. The kind of exercises where you just will NOT allow yourself to beat yourself up anymore (also like you and the other posters were saying in earlier posts). To a woman who is really down in the dumps, as you were a year or so ago, suggestions like the ones I made just sound like too much energy for little to no payback, and its hard to muster up the type of courage it takes to execute them. At those times, its easier to just sort of give up and let yourself feel low and crappy for a time.

But you've come a long way since then...enough time has passed that now you seem ready to stop feeling the pain and start with the gain. The pain is normal and necessary at first. But eventually, when you begin to truly move on, you also want to move onward and UPWARD. To get out of the funk of your old life, you've gotta just fake it til you make it with these bitchy suggestions. But they do work, I've seen it many times.

I love hearing about your extra blonde! Myself, I am so brunette that I can never really go blonde, so I'll always be envious of you gals who can do it. However, I am turning quite gray lately and have decided to just let them come on in...the sooner I turn all gray, the sooner I can turn those grays into blondes and be a hottie like you! ;0)

Hoosier...you are going to come out of all of this as a new woman. I'm so sorry it took a horrid divorce to get you here...but at the same time, your ex-H didn't deserve you and NEVER WILL. Those are hollow words in the beginning of the disatrous journey of divorce, but hopefully by now you are really starting to feel the truth in there.

DQ
DQ, what you're talking about is baby steps and faking it till you make it. And those things work; in fact they're the only things that work when you're really down.

I have come a long way. Because I was really down, probably even before the bomb. I had sort of experienced two major betrayals and abandonments simultaneously--literally the same week--my marriage and my ministry position. And in their endings, both my xH and my bosses told me terrible things about myself that I knew were not true but were excuses for discarding me. And while I never doubted that they were lies, a lot of former friends believed them--and I lost job, marriage, family, and most of my friends all at the same time. I think I could have bounced back from divorce much more quickly without the other factors; I am nothing if not resilient.

But anyway, here I am, finally able to look ahead instead of behind (the previous paragraph was only in explanation of my "stuckness"). I think I'm finally past the point of internalizing the crap, much of the anger, and moving on toward rising from the ashes. Occasional forays back into those places, but less and less often. If I could just get past the crushing loneliness and lack of connection now--and I'm working on that.

I think I've understood for awhile now that xH never deserved me...I think I knew that while I was still married even. But I feel it at different levels, and knowing what and how I contributed to my own misery has been a huge help in that. I hate that I lost myself in that relationship--but I think I just turned my attention toward pastoral ministry, which was giving me much more back than my husband was at the time, rather than actually losing myself. I think it was how I saved myself--even tho I lost the marriage. But seriously--that was never going to work. I know that now.

Thank you again so much for the words of wisdom and encouragement. You've affirmed that I am headed in the right direction.
DQ,
This man on the sidelines is up and giving you two "Whoo Hoo!" standing O's for two outstanding, generous posts.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
DQ,
This man on the sidelines is up and giving you two "Whoo Hoo!" standing O's for two outstanding, generous posts.

Amen!!
Weird, icky dreams last night! Something's going on in my subconscious!

In the first, I confronted OW in person. Told her what her selfishness cost D and I. I think this was in response to her reply when I sent her a note a week or so into this thing; she quoted the Wiccan "golden rule" which is apparently "do as you will but harm none." Apparently in her twisted little new age mind, she would do harm to xH if she dropped the relationship--I suppose no one else's well-being was a factor. She is a master of rationalization. Anyway, in the dream she got very angry with me, as did xH, who took off outside; I heard OW screaming, and ran outside to find xH in cardiac arrest in his car. At the end of the dream I was trying to resuscitate him as she continued screaming.

In the second dream, I ended up converting to the denomination xH converted to just before he left. It was unclear to me why I was doing that. But it didn't seem to have anything to do with xH, as he wasn't in the dream.

Both dreams left me feeling sad and. . . strange. I was very happy to wake up and realize my life was different from my dreams.

I haven't dreamed about this in a long, long time. So--analysis, anyone?
Well, last night I dreamt I was a Royal Mountie and was worried about getting my red uniform dirtied since we rarely used them in public. Where that came from ... who knows?

Sometimes, dreams are just our brains way of putting out the garbage. IMHO, it's out, now leave it be.

Although, I have read that dreams can have symbolic purpose. So, what symbolic issue does OW represent, or XH having a heart attack, or changing churches?

In another matter --- something I told a friend years ago. Her H was very violent and used to have affairs and flirt with other women in front of her. I used to berate him, calling him all kinds of names. Then I got it (she is a very soft person, a good Catholic who has no intention of ever divorcing him) --- "men are not attracted to doormats", I told her. I was more assertive in those days. I got soft in my own M, and look what happened. But, my friend started to get it --- she stopped putting up with his roving eye, etc. They are still married. And, he is no longer abusive.

I don't know if there is a message in there for you, but I need to be like that again. Although, your H wiped his feet on you by allowing you to pay for his studies. In my case, my H is paying for me to study full-time and he will be paying for my D17's upcoming college fees.

I am waffling --- take care.
BeingMe--LOL!! at least your dream was colorful and you got to be a heroic character!!

I don't know about symbolic purpose; I just know that I've been working thru stuff at a different level here lately and turning some corners, and I assume this has something to do with that. Sometimes dreams are pretty clear, sometimes not so much. I'm not all that inclined to dig deep here, I think it's just part of the working thru.

oh, just to be clear--I didn't pay for my xH's graduate school or internship--he had grants and an assistantship. But I was the sole breadwinner for the first 3 years of our marriage, doing a heinous job with awful hours to pay all of our expenses.
oh--and no more doormats for me!! no more settling, no more weak, immature, irresponsible, narcissistic men. I'm healthy enough now--finally--to want someone else healthy as well. no more "neuroses calling out to each other!"

Interesting things besides the dreams this weekend. D14 reports that xH tells her he hasn't seen OW all weekend. I think they usually have horse shows and travel on weekends, because D14 is rarely with him on weekends (as in, once every few months or so, and rarely for the whole weekend). D14 is very interested in this turn of events--thinks OW is about to dump xH, in her words! Probably wishful thinking on her part, but it has been about 2 years and the chemicals are perhaps wearing off.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 03/15/10 05:53 PM
Hello,

Somebody (won't say who) suggested I stop in here. Just to let you know, my H filed in October, 09. Interrogatories and Motions are flying back and forth. And, we are going to mediation on April 15th. My attn. said a D is like having an out-of-body experience, and she is right.

How is everyone?

poet

P.S. Last night I dreamed I was on a cable ride, and the other night I dreamed I was about to be hit by a 10-foot-wave in the ocean. (I am beginnign to wonder if this means I'm about to go under).
yes, I can identify with that out-of-body experience thing.

and the dreams--yeah, definitely can see that you feel like you're hanging and about to be overwhelmed by a wave. I dont' think they're predictive as much as they reveal things we're feeling.
interesting update.

D14 let me know over the weekend that xH didn't spend the weekend with OW (he rarely wants D14 to visit on weekends because apparently that's their time together, travelling to horse shows, whatever). She thought that was odd.

Last night when he picked her up from choir they went to visit another female friend of his. D14 thought this was very odd.

hmmm--could it be over with wiccawoman? is he being unfaithful to her (oh, surely not!) or is he doing his trapeze act--waiting to let go of one until the next is in reach?

wow, I can hardly wait to see what happens next...stay tuned, fans!
hoosier...I fully expect them to break up, always did. And then your ex-h will be forced to contemplate what it was that he was chasing all that time...not that it will matter to YOU as he never deserved you to begin with. But I had said a long time ago in a post to you, that they do and will have to face their own demons at some point. There is no avoiding it. Again, it won't make him love you again or be your husband again, but by now, hopefully you see that as a blessing in disguise anyway. Can't wait for future updates!

DQ
thanks, DQ!! yes, I absolutely see it as a blessing in disguise. while I wish he had had the integrity to "earn his way out" of the marriage, well...if he had, we wouldn't have had the issues we had to begin with. I don't want him to be my husband again, I don't want him to love me again--I'm not sure he's capable of loving anyone besides himself.

He's never faced his demons. He believes he has,but he hasn't scratched the surface because they're all external. not sure what it would take to make him face them, but I think what will happen is he'll just transfer his affection from old OW to a new woman with very little self-reflection.

besides, what matters is that I've faced my demons, and come out the other side more whole and more wise, and more who I was meant to be. I wish with all my heart that I didn't have to drag D14 thru it as well, but at the very least I hope I've given her a good example of rising from the ashes and getting smarter as a result.

so--had a second interview for the research position today, and I think it went well. I feel very bad about leaving my school, I truly do--especially if it works out that I leave before the end of the school year. but I had a chat with a co-worker today--amazing man who serves as a mentor, a former NFL linebacker. I felt a lot of peace as a result of our talk. anyway, I will hear something in a week or so. if I get this position, my salary will increase significantly (don't know the specifics yet) and the benefits are wonderful too. it involves research into pediatric Type I diabetes; it's very left-brained, and I'm very NOT left-brained, but it also requires some good communication and relationship-building skills and I have those (as long as they don't require husband-communication, that is). I'll keep you posted!
I spoke too soon. D14 told me about spending the evening (until 10:30--on a school night!) running an errand for OW.

and then about another conversation she had with her father; he wants her to take some steps toward becoming friends with OW. She's not having it. at all. Seems xH wants to drive to St. Louis to visit his brother and family, taking D14 and OW, but doesn't think they will survive 3 hours in the car together.

I told her she didn't have to be friends with OW, nor with anyone she wasn't comfortable being friends with. But that she should be polite and respectful. "Why?!" she asked. "Because that's how you were raised." "Oh. I get it."
In Indiana can't your daughter choose who she wants to stay with? She is 14 years old. You SHOULD give your daughter the power to dis-own (sp?)her father.
Originally Posted By: v1olin
In Indiana can't your daughter choose who she wants to stay with? She is 14 years old. You SHOULD give your daughter the power to dis-own (sp?)her father.
At the age of 14, they get a large voice in where they live--but she lives with me 4 days out of 7, and she is happy with the division of time. Except when she's with her father, she wants to have time with him, not with OW and her family. And that doesn't come from me; she was a part of D's life for a full 7 months before I was even aware of it, and she hated sharing her father's time with this woman who helped break up her family. And babysitting for her grandson. And cleaning the woman's house and barn. Ugh. The thing is, D14 is a very agreeable child, and would probably have adjusted eventually if xH handled this with any tact or sensitivity instead of rushing it and refusing to consider D14's feelings. I think it's probably a lost cause at this point.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 03/20/10 06:27 PM
Thank you Hoos,

Your words were so uplifting, that they were the first thing that I grabbed onto to begin lifting me out of a slump last week. Didn't have the gumption to sign on to thank you then, so I hope this is not too belated. Your words have always encouraged me.

poet
Hoosier...maybe you spoke too soon, but it doesn't mean it won't all fall apart eventually. IT WILL.

I am so sad for your D, but she's a smart cookie and I'm so glad she hasn't let her dad and the OW manipulate her into feeling affection for OW when she doesn't want to. Good for her!

DQ
hmama,
Non-sequitur post here:
When we were going back and forth over on my thread:
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Enjoyed your thoughts on inner child/adult interactions. There's a whole section--with a slightly different perspective than I've seen before--in the Susan Anderson book, chapter on Rage. Since you're obviously well-versed on the concept, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this chapter/exercise. When you get to it.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Thanks, mama. Sorry you were there, too. Proud of your strength and inner resolve in overcoming it, too. The Holidays sure don't help such despair, do they? The Susan Anderson book is next. Working through Susan Elliott right now. I'll let you know when I'm on Susan Anderson and get to that section.
Got my Susans mixed up; I am reading Susan Anderson's The Journey From Abandonment To Healing - slowly - right now, not Susan Elliott's. I'll chat with you about it when I get there. And occasionally before that chapter, too, I imagine.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 03/23/10 10:48 PM
Question that I hope is not a rude one.

Hoos,

Are you in the other universe?

poet
I am, occasionally--not terribly often. Have no access at work, and share a computer with a teenage daughter at home!
Gardener, I hope that you find that book as healing as I have. There was so much in there that I hope will validate why you feel the way you do, how and why we seem to get stuck (in reality, it's just that we need more time to do the work necessary to resolve that particular stage, or that something has triggered a brief return visit!), and how to cooperate with the healing process and come thru all of this scarred but stronger and with more capacity for love.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 03/24/10 03:52 PM
Thanks Hoos,

I thought that was you. I think I tried befriending you, but haven't heard back yet?

poet
oh, sorry--I'll check. haven't had much time online of late.
update...

I feel like I've punched into the Eastern Australian Current, duuuudde--life is moving fast.

Got the research job, starting in a couple of weeks. I will truly miss what I'm doing, but I won't miss juggling payments around and having utilities shut off every few months because I can't pay bills. This will be about a 45% increase in salary, much better benefits, good hours, some in-state travel but just overnights...life will change considerably! May will be tough; the way pay periods fall I won't get paid between April 30 and June 1. But after that we should be able to breathe again, and financial stress will ease hugely. Just gotta hang in until then.

D14 probably won't be able to go on her choir trip to Chicago this summer, and it's breaking my heart. I haven't been able to pay anything towards it, and xH decided not to. She asks for so little, this was pretty reasonable and something for her to look forward to after a really hideous school year. I haven't given up on it, but I have absolutely no conceivable way of raising the money. If her wealthy aunts and uncles decided to contribute--problem solved. But xH won't ask them. So D14 is going to.

And...xH broke up with the wicca princess he left us for. Of course, he left her for someone else he'd been seeing for a few months. D14 likes this new person, who's a therapist (with questionable judgment, obviously!); she's never been married, has no children, talks with D14...so, once it was all official that she was in and the old one was out, I wrote her a very brief, very gracious email (we work in the same system--no espionage involved there), saying that I have heard positive things about her from my daughter, we're likely to be at the same events, so I wanted to extend a sort of invitation to try to be comfortable around one another for D14's sake. She wrote back a very appropriate little note, and we met at a concert over the weekend. D14 was ecstatic at the decrease in tension, xH was extremely awkward, but we were both just fine. She seems to have a clue and is somewhat normal--so I don't expect she'll be around all that long! And I hate to see D14 lose someone she likes...but for now, we're handling it all just fine.

Interesting, xH is a different person. It's great that the tension has lifted, but we need to re-establish some appropriate boundaries. D14 has told him some details of my personal life that he really has no need to know. And he is behaving as if the past 2 years never happened--friendly, chatting with friends at the concert, just...well, narcissistic. He even sorta apologized--said it was never gonna work with wicca princess because she wasn't willing to reach out to D14 (well, duh!! and you put D14 thru 2 years of hell for that?!) And I have so far risen above and stopped myself from any "told you so's" to anyone. And altho I noticed when I glanced over during the concert (and I truly didn't know where they were sitting, it was accidental) that the new gf chews gum like a bovine--I didn't point that out to anyone. well, only to a small, select handful of people....

Hottie Texas prof is coming for a visit over Memorial Day--early June. Not sure how long he's staying--but he's jumping right into my life. D14's 8th grade graduation (that's not the reason for his visit--he's here for the Indy 500 a few days earlier), lunch with one of my friends who's a priest; we've had some interesting theological discussions (we're both serious about our faith--but I'm Catholic and he's evangelical). So--don't know where that's headed, but spending some time together will be nice, and will perhaps help determine future direction. I don't feel nearly as insecure these days--mostly, I think, because I'm just more secure about myself.

As a wise puppy once said (and I'm paraphrasing awkwardly here)--we spend a lot of time worrying about black and white--and then God gives us blue.
hm,
Good to hear from you. Things sound pretty good all around. I'm glad for you.
Blue is my favorite color, maybe that is the reason!! I am so happy for you. I know you will have the one stressful month but then are going to fall into place. Positives attract positives. Keep it up!

So is the TX guy the old flame?

kat
I think the exact quote might have been "Isn't it funny how we always see our struggles in terms of 'black and white' and then sometimes God gives you BLUE?" -- but I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him. wink

Puppy, who has a pet turtle named "Squirt"
kat--yeah, TX guy is the friend from waaaaaaayy back (1982-ish). NO idea where he is with all of this, but last year when he came up for the race we practically spontaneously combusted! This year there will be more time. Don't know if he's involved--I'm thinking not. And tremendous healing on both sides over the past year (this is the amazing synchronicity situation--his ex left a month before mine did, we reconnected about 8-9 months later, divorces final the same week...) I don't know him well enough to be "in love" but what I know, I love. I'd like to know if there's more of that in there. Already there--trust, comfort, a feeling of "being home" and--ummmm, great attraction.

more than you asked. just thought I'd fill in the blanks.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I think the exact quote might have been "Isn't it funny how we always see our struggles in terms of 'black and white' and then sometimes God gives you BLUE?" -- but I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him. wink

Puppy, who has a pet turtle named "Squirt"

yeah--it was something like THAT!

and duh--now I get the turtle's name!! Righteous, dude!
It isn't quite fair that he can remember his qoutes is it? that or he just looks at past threads. lol

Yes old boyfriends and old flames should be labled as highly explosive! An old flame unknowingly has my heart right now. An old boyfriend and I are heating things up though. wink Dangerous, but fun, stuff.

kat
Originally Posted By: kat727
It isn't quite fair that he can remember his qoutes is it? that or he just looks at past threads. lol


I use the Dewey Decimal system. smile It's like "Garanimals," only for books.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: kat727
It isn't quite fair that he can remember his qoutes is it? that or he just looks at past threads. lol


I use the Dewey Decimal system. smile It's like "Garanimals," only for books.

Puppy


I think I maybe heard of that somewhere...once upon a time! lol

kat
Originally Posted By: kat727
It isn't quite fair that he can remember his qoutes is it? that or he just looks at past threads. lol

Yes old boyfriends and old flames should be labled as highly explosive! An old flame unknowingly has my heart right now. An old boyfriend and I are heating things up though. wink Dangerous, but fun, stuff.

kat

well, we were just buddies back in the day. talked about everything. I never noticed he kinda had a crush, I guess....
Good that you are noticing it now. wink
well, these days I'm more attracted to normal and healthy than I was back then. in my younger days I went for the tall, dark and dysfunctional types.
Hoozh!

You sound really good, lady. The tension lifting like that -- so amazing. But you're a great person and God's lookin' out for ya', quite obviously.

(((HUGS)))


(Oh, man, how can I forget about Nemo?!! My first thought about turtles and "Squirt" was Pokemon -- you know, Squirtle? I've got kids at that age now.)
ugh!! I remember Pokemon!! glad those days are over!!!

yes, no doubt God is looking out for me. there will be adjustments, no doubt, but I no longer feel stuck and waiting for the other shoe to drop. and it feels really, really good.
Congrats on getting the job, Hmama! I have my nose in studying for exams(Religious Studies - the New Testament) tomorrow, but I just wanted to check in.
Congratulations on the new job HM, I am so happy for you!!
good luck on the exam, BeingMe!

what I didn't mention above (it was plenty long enough already, I guess!) is that after the concert, I watched xH and gf walking away and he took her hand--gently, tenderly. And I felt...nothing. it's not really an image that has stayed with me either, except that I recognized my lack of emotion about it. I think I tend to see the whole thing in terms of neurochemistry--brain chemicals. I've watched the past 2 years from the perspective of brain chemistry--seen his flood and peak and die away, only to resurge with another OW. guess I'm already beginning to think like a research nurse!
Originally Posted By: MsInvisible
Congratulations on the new job HM, I am so happy for you!!

thank you! the best part is it seems to coincide with so many other positive changes--but they began internally, and before the job ever came about.
Congrats for the job HM!!! 45% increase???? WOW!!
Wishing you even better times and "things"...
K
Thank you, Kalni! I didn't know you read my thread--I am duly honored!!
Are you kidding? Honored? You are kidding, right?
K

Of course I read your thread and I have posted to you before...
no, I'm not kidding! You are one of the Wise Women of the boards! I'm sorry if I forgot you had posted before--I've been on here a long time now (or so it seems!)....and often with long lulls between posts. oh, and not to mention the roller coaster ride of the past 2 years! I think I've lost some brain cells in the process....
ok, I'm having too much fun observing this.

xH called me last evening. apologized for asking, then said--"you haven't contacted <wicca princess> have you?"

"of course not. I would have no reason to do that."

"well, she's pissed. called me a liar and she's just getting ugly. I don't think she's ever been dumped before. I had to tell her not to call me again."

it was all I could do not to laugh as he was telling me this!!! he's apparently entitled to not be bothered with the women he leaves in his wake as he takes up with new ones. and, ummm--yeah, I imagine he did tell a fib or two, since he's been with the new one for a couple of months and just jettisoned this one last week!!

and while I may have written a few choice phrases to wicca woman in my head, I would not have bothered to send them! this is going to be interesting.
smirk grin
Karma is a b*tch and then some. Well, this is OW's road and she must walk it and learn from it, or at least, this is what she would've said to you, not so?! Now she knows that your X is a narcissist and that gentle handholding is just a manipulation --- as long as he is getting what he wants from the relationship, he will play the game. And when he's not getting what he wants, he will just move on without a second thought. In my humble opinion.
well, the wicca woman OW/gf now knows he's a narcissist (well, I have a hunch that she is too!) but the new gf has not figured it out yet. she's a therapist--she ought to catch on fairly quickly, I would think. All that matters to me right now is that D14 is happy and at peace. I will hold the attitude that these relationships are temporary--because I feel awful that she will likely get attached and then feel abandoned when it's over.

but aside from that, it's none of my business. still, watching some karma in action is kinda rewarding.
What BM said; also, new GF is only trying to "serve in this space." HA! Too hilarious.

I have to say I hope new GF wises up-- I feel sorry for her! But I'm so glad the Witch is out of your D's life.

Such good news about the job! Wish your X would lose his (now that would be some kick*ss karma!). I'd like to see him get his utilities shut off... in the wintertime... and have to ask you for a loan.

I hope D's relative come through for her with the trip money.



Wow, Andabelle! you have quite a memory!! I know many of those icky phrases have run thru my head recently, with appropriately snarky come-backs!

interesting that the excuse xH used to me for ending it with the witch is that she wouldn't have a relationship with D14. That didn't seem to bother him for a couple of years, until the new one came along; I think this is post-mortem justification! But whatever. in that explanation was the first time he mentioned the woman's name to me--and the shift in his attitude and response is giving me whiplash.


Yeah, it would be great karma for him to be sick and alone in the dark without heat in the wintertime--ugh! flashbacks! But he'd just charm somebody into taking him in, it would never happen.

BTW--just remembered. I kept getting emails from xH's church about youth group activities for D14, which irritated me. Finally last week I answered one of them, and told them that it would be too confusing to have my daughter involved in a faith community that supports adultery after all the ways she has suffered as a result of it. So would you be so kind as to remove me from your email lists, thankyouverymuch.
Originally Posted By: Andabelle
What BM said; also, new GF is only trying to "serve in this space." HA! Too hilarious.

I have to say I hope new GF wises up-- I feel sorry for her! But I'm so glad the Witch is out of your D's life.

Such good news about the job! Wish your X would lose his (now that would be some kick*ss karma!). I'd like to see him get his utilities shut off... in the wintertime... and have to ask you for a loan.

I hope D's relative come through for her with the trip money.



whistle whistle

OK, moderator(s), where's that kickass little "thumbs-up"/"Like" button?? grin

Puppy
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


BTW--just remembered. I kept getting emails from xH's church about youth group activities for D14, which irritated me. Finally last week I answered one of them, and told them that it would be too confusing to have my daughter involved in a faith community that supports adultery after all the ways she has suffered as a result of it. So would you be so kind as to remove me from your email lists, thankyouverymuch.


Yeah, HOOOOOOOOOOOOZZHHHHH!!!!!
whistle whistle whistle whistle

Where IS that "Like" button, anyway?????

Puppy
Lol!! Thanks, pup.

Finding my voice again for the first time!
And it's loud and clear my dear!!!
Another thumbs-up, bravo:

Quote:
post-mortem justification


Excellent turn of phrase, Hoozh.!
why thank you, thank you very much....

the witch has left the building....
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Lol!! Thanks, pup.

Finding my voice again for the first time!


And such a mellifluous voice it is, Hoozh. smile

Puppy
HM, Congrats on the new job!!! Raise sounds awesome! Congrats on seeing that OW got it in the end. I know it shouldn't matter but some how it makes me grin a bit....

Anyhow, not sure what is entailed in your new job but I am a part time medical librarian (former nurse) so if so need some tips on pulling up stats or the latest in medical info, or what databases to use, I can (hopefully) give you some hints.

Anyhow, if you think I might be of use to you I am DeeBee and my user name. Just look at Flowmom's friend's or Cutter. I am not a member of the Dbusting group b/c none of my friends know of anything concerning my past with hubby.

Also, love the email to the church!
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Lol!! Thanks, pup.

Finding my voice again for the first time!


And such a mellifluous voice it is, Hoozh. smile

Puppy

mellifluous?! wow. I'm impressed, pup!
Mmmmm, sweet sweet Karma!
Originally Posted By: v1olin
Mmmmm, sweet sweet Karma!
'tis, indeed.
thank you, June!
Great response to X's church.
Originally Posted By: june72
HM, Congrats on the new job!!! Raise sounds awesome! Congrats on seeing that OW got it in the end.


C'mon, June, do you really think it's appropriate to bring sodomy into this discussion? I mean, Hoozh is just now getting her sea legs back and all. wink

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: june72
HM, Congrats on the new job!!! Raise sounds awesome! Congrats on seeing that OW got it in the end.


C'mon, June, do you really think it's appropriate to bring sodomy into this discussion? I mean, Hoozh is just now getting her sea legs back and all. wink

Puppy

omg!!! I just busted out laughing in my little clinic and woke up a sleeping kid. lol!!!!

actually, I wouldn't mind seeing that both of them got it in the end, but I'm afraid they just might enjoy it, in which case I'd want no part of it. well, I wouldn't really want any part of it anyway. but you know what I mean.

dang, pup--I'm all flustered now!
Glad I could help, my dear.

My work is done here, Robin! To the puppy poles!!! smirk
Holy Karma, Pupman! don't leave now!! the fun's just beginning!!
I am like the wind.
Puppy!!!! Coke just shot out my nose.
ROTFLMAO!
ok, feel free to jump on in here. this is amazing.

received the following reply from the pastor of xH's church to that note I wrote about. (quick refresh: at the very beginning of all of this, 2 years ago, he was one of the small handful of people I asked to talk with xH because I was convinced he had lost his senses. if they talked, it changed nothing; he was clear that he would NOT be talking with me again. before this, he and his wife were good couple-friends with xH and I.)

"Please know that I was copied on your recent email to the parish expressing your desire to be removed from our parish email list. We will certainly support your request and wishes.

Please know too that I am deeply saddened as well as very mindful of the tremendous pain, anger, and stresses in your and D14's recent and current lives.

As an experienced pastoral minister yourself, however, I am confident that you understand the great ambiguities, uncertainties, and difficulties which occur whenever people you love and care for make choices and decisions which you may or may not condone, support, or even understand.

And I'm certain too that you have found yourself in situations where you must watch others suffer pain (sometimes of their own but often of another's making) all the time knowing that you really cannot intervene or stop it.

I now find myself in precisely this situation vis-a-vis you, D14, and xH. Unfortunately, I also find myself in this situation with several other parish members as well as some family members and friends! And in each of these cases, the "little" that I can offer is simply prayer, greater attempts at understanding, and more prayer.

Therefore while I can't and won't offer advice, fixes, or even (except in very rare situations) interventions to you or any others, please know that I do genuinely and sincerely hold you in my daily prayers, thoughts, and blessings.

Finally, know that I pray too for the day and time where we can once again set down around the same table to share our hopes, joys, and lives. Until then...

Blessings..."
Sheesh! Not a very effective pastor if he can't let one of his congregation know where he is going wrong, spiritually and sinfully. Is that what Paul taught? Stand back and observe the sinner in your midst, and say/do nothing? Are you going to reply?
not sure. not so much a matter of not confronting a sinner, as turning one's back on the innocent victims of the sin. but either way, he's a weak, cowardly shepherd, IMHO.
well yeah, my question is what ever stopped him from setting down around the same table... ???????

He seems cowardly if you ask me...
Ahh yes, the "nuanced" gambit.

Nice try, Pastor. You aren't fit to lead a flock, sir!

John the Baptist faced "uncertainties," and "ambiguities." He told the people to REPENT.

A man of God should hold up to a higher standard. THE standard. SHAME!! mad mad mad

Puppy
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
not sure. not so much a matter of not confronting a sinner, as turning one's back on the innocent victims of the sin. but either way, he's a weak, cowardly shepherd, IMHO.


You need to call him out, G. How many other parishoners aren't having their spiritual needs met, because of this man's cowardice??

Expose him!!!

Puppy
Quote:
...the great ambiguities, uncertainties, and difficulties...


Quote:
...suffer pain... all the time knowing that you really cannot intervene or stop it.


Unbelievable. He is glossing over the fact he enabled the very behavior that caused someone else pain.

Wow. So, he is admitting that he was consciously aware of the great pain he caused you in his great disservice to you and your D14, but he refrained from doing his duty to confront the offender. It's not just that he was too blind to see it, but he was consciously aware of the injury being done to you -- and he not only turned a blind eye to it he also thereby condoned it.

Quote:
Therefore while I can't and won't offer advice, fixes, or even (except in very rare situations) interventions to you or any others, please know that I do genuinely and sincerely hold you in my daily prayers, thoughts, and blessings...


I seriously doubt he ever remembered you in his prayers. Not when he also embraced the sinner and rejected the victim. And even so, as a man of the cloth he was under greater obligation to take more action than prayer. Sitting on one's hands in the face of sin is certainly not biblical.

Such a coward and a weasel! I am deeply offended and ashamed that he calls himself a Christian leader -- he contributes to the poor image so many have of Christians today.
Parts of this sound so incredibly insincere. It really disgusts me. Is his role not to point out to people when they are going astray? He is supposed to sit back, watch and pray on it? Hands off, no intervention?

OK, so by that logic- a person tells him he will beat another person up... but all this minister can do is pray that he won't. Not warn the person about to get the beating, not tell the person about to go beat someone up that he is wrong? Just listen and validate.

Is that what this minister is saying? I think this man is nuts.
hm,

Nothing to add re: your spineless, unprincipled, unchristian "pastor' that BeingMe, msinvisible, puppy, NoCodeBlues and June72 haven't already covered.
Originally Posted By: puppydogtails
You need to call him out, G. How many other parishoners aren't having their spiritual needs met, because of this man's cowardice??

Expose him!!!
Yes.
Thank you all for your powerful responses. I didn't really expect to hear from him, I was just kind of irritable and fired off an email to a nameless, faceless sender.

The thing is, there's no one to expose him to. We have episcopal clergy here in town who have recently made the papers for being part of a male prostitution ring, and for serial affairs with parishioners. This is nothing. In fact, this is probably seen as tactful handling of a potential scandal.

I will respond in time, but it won't be as a pitiful scorned wife. It will be as a fellow pastoral minister--but one with a spine and some moral authority. I want him to cringe--and never to handle anything this way again.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 04/17/10 03:29 PM
Hey Hoos,

I just went back to read your original email from your "pastor" which I found extremely - well, unsupportive. Mind you, I have my own issues/conversations with a certain, or two, priests. I have found myself keeping them "informed" of my progress, but never really have found much in the way of emotional support from them, except in the beginning.

Honestly, I do think sometimes, in my own head, I talk myself into some negative ways of thinking, ie. "He doesn't like me anymore, he's unconcerned, he's never there for me, etc., etc." But, for the most part, I think he does what he can and says what he thinks will help me. But never, never, never has he said he would be deleting me from his email list. He better not! I'd probably have to throw the book - yes, that book - at him!

Stay in good thoughts, girl. Be calm and forgive, if you can.

poet
And this is the denomination/congregation your X defected to because yours is so f-ed up (he says?). Man.
"... I am confident that you understand the great ambiguities, uncertainties, and difficulties which occur whenever people you love and care for make choices and decisions which you may or may not condone..."

Last I checked, adultery is an unambiguous 10 Commandment fail.
That's why I dont believe in "church" but I believe in God. Churches (in Greece at least) are run like enterprises and rarely offer the spiritual and moral support people need.
I think we have to keep in mind that Pastor's are human and they make mistakes. Now, whether this Pastor has made a mistake is hard for me to judge. The fact that he took the time to reply at the length he did says something, a coward would have ignored your email and had you taken off the email list. Obviously, he is trying to give some kind of explanation be it right or wrong. I'm also not sure that it's the Pastor's job to play policeman because if that were the case he'd be kicking people out of the church left and right. Wasn't it Jesus who hung out with sinners? He was Lord of the Losers! A Pastor has to walk a very fine line sometimes, sinners need someone to go to but won't if the Pastor is the law and order guy. In any church there are any number of people who, according to others, shouldn't be there. Does the Pastor kick everyone out who isn't towing the line? I can see the Pastor not allowing them responsible positions in the congregation but otherwise I'm not sure it's his place to kick ass! Obviously, everyone else on this thread disagrees. So kick me off the thread! grin But seriously Hoosier, I'm so sorry for the hurt that this has caused you. We all want to feel our church is there for us in time of need and it's hard when you feel that wasn't the case, especially when you're already trying to deal with your own and your D's deep pain.
A bit of clarification...
This isn't my pastor. awhile before he split, xH changed denominations so that he could be ordained (Catholicism frowns on that sort of thing, married people being ordained and all). And this pastor and his wife and xH and I hung out from time to time, had dinner, chats, etc. so when xH apparently went crazy and all, I contacted him to talk some sense into xH. provided emails that proved he left me for the wicca woman. pastor was far more appalled that I read xH's private email and shared it with him than he was at the adultery, and agreed to meet with me one time only.

xH wasn't just a member of this congregation, he's a candidate for priesthood, participates in a leadership role at liturgies and serves on a leadership committee. I agree, you don't kick someone out of your church, but you also don't need to elevate them to a leadership position when their personal lives are a mess, nor do you recommend them for priesthood. and you also don't push away the family that has been left to fend for themselves in the midst of pain without reaching out in some way. I've done pastoral ministry...I would have handled this far differently if I was on the other side of it.
^ this sounds familiar.
Originally Posted By: v1olin
^ this sounds familiar.
yeah, I bet it does. far more common, and across denominational lines, than anyone would suspect.
I am not saying what your pastor did is what I would have done. That being said, you also don't know what your XH was telling him. Perhaps he fed lies to your pastor and your pastor wasn't sure who to believe

while the truth always seems so obvious to us, to outsiders it is not so as our Xs are master manipulators and don't often admit to being the schmeels they really are

perhaps this pastor was trying to remain nuetral and the fact that you wanted him to take your side made it difficult for him to reach out to you????

again...not saying he was right and I probably would have kicked him in the ass without even hearing his side, which may be why I am not a pastoral minister!!! grin
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 04/19/10 02:42 AM
"...pastor was far more appalled that I read xH's private email and shared it with him than he was at the adultery, and agreed to meet with me one time only."

See! This is what I mean about your "pastor" Hoos. I mean to tell ya, you may want to "reconsider" about this guy and LOOK FOR SOMEONE OTHER THAN HIM TO TURN TO FOR SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP. AND FAST!

The reason I say this is because my OWN experience is similar to yours - in the beginning! I supplied emails to my priest too. Only my emails were of H's indescretions with prostitutes etc., etc. Don't really know what yours were, but to me, it doesn't really matter. MY priest, was consoling with me and said I should divorce him -- not really sure how this goes along with the teachings of the Catholic Church, of which I'm a part of, but I've struggled with it now for two years.

Anyway, my point being ... my priest/in fact BOTH of them, side with me in WAY my direction. (It is possible that they do because they are not in contact with stbx). But, one of them was in the beginning and he still sees stbx as the culprit who is "not normal." That's yet another story.

But see my point? Try looking for another confidant in the church, maybe even another church of the same denomination near you. I travel 30 miles just to see my priest. When I went to mediation on Thursday, I texted him and told him where I was. He texted back, saying all is well (meaning God is taking care of it). Not a lot of support but CERTAINLY more than yours, girlfried.

We're with you dear. Stay strong. Stay clear in your faith and you're loved here.

peace,
poet
hm, I gotta say I agree with poet 100% on the strength of this alone
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...pastor was far more appalled that I read xH's private email and shared it with him than he was at the adultery, and agreed to meet with me one time only.
Originally Posted By: poet
LOOK FOR SOMEONE OTHER THAN HIM TO TURN TO FOR SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP. AND FAST!
This, too.

Though I do realize that Church/pastor/spiritual decisions are extremely personal - intimate, even - and, therefore you ultimately must listen to no one and nothing but your own heart.
I would love to see where in the bible your husband comes up with his excuse for infidelity!
I know someone whose husband told her he was leaving because "God has big plans for me and they don't include you". The human mind is an amazing thing!!!
believe me, guys, I would not turn to this guy for spiritual support--or any other kind. two years ago I asked this guy for help, and he essentially declined--yeah, no doubt xH had his own version of the story to tell. this time around, I didn't seek him out. I keep getting invitations to youth ministry events for D14, and I finally got irritable enough to reply to them that I had no intention of sending her to anything at that church because of the way they had thrown us to the wolves while supporting xH in his adultery. then he replied to me, as noted. and his note was just as appalling as how he handled things 2 years ago, and I think deserves a reply. but as for spiritual leadership or support--heck no.
Originally Posted By: whatisis
I would love to see where in the bible your husband comes up with his excuse for infidelity!
I know someone whose husband told her he was leaving because "God has big plans for me and they don't include you". The human mind is an amazing thing!!!
I think he believes he's far above anything as quaint and archaic as the Bible or the commandments. it's all about self-actualization and, as he called it, "living into his truth." religion was all about the externals for him anyway, very little grasp of the relational aspect of faith.
Well, I think this pastor was "protesting way too much". Way long email to give you a "reason" for his lack of support. I am glad you are not a member of this church. As for the bible, one can read many things into it, but I recall from class that Paul expected sinners to be ostracized from the community until they had repented. Sometimes, I wonder if church leaders nowadays are soft on "sin" in case they lose people. Maybe, if they expect more from their congregation, they will be surprised at how it will grow, in my humble opinion. Jesus did hang with sinners, but he didn't just sit around chatting about the weather, he was preaching repentance and baptism.

Well, I can debate these things forever, since I just finished a class on Critical Bible Study : New Testament. It was fascinating, eye-opening, and more difficult than I ever could've imagined. It was a scholarly course, with no spirituality involved, except that my belief system increased, rather than decreased. Surprising!
Kick ass and take names, eh Being Me grin
Presently, I'm reading a book by John Ortberg entitled Faith & Doubt and in it he quotes Frederick Buechner, "Thus many an atheist is a believer without knowing it,just as many a believer is an atheist without knowing it. You can sincerely believe there is no God and live as though there is. You can sincerely believe there is a God and live as though there isn't. So it goes." Ortberg also cites the Apostles Creed wondering what it would look like if we actually recited it in the way we live it:
I believe that a lie is a bad thing, but it might be necessary for me to avoid pain. ("A lie is an abomination unto the Lord and a very present help in time of trouble."
I believe that it pays to be nicest to people who are wealthy, attractive, smart, athletic, successful, or important.
I believe that I have the right to pass judgment on others.
I believe that I have the right to gossip about people.
I believe that I had better be looking out for number one.
I believe that things have not gone as well for me as they should, so I deserve a little treat: another doughnut, another drink, another pill, another fantasy...
I believe that thirty thousand children dying of preventable diseases every day in our world are not worth risking my affluence for.
He writes "All of these convictions lie deep within me, and you can see that I believe them if you look at the way I live"

Just thought I'd share! smile
LOL grin I have to read that book some time, Wii. But, I don't advocate "kick ass" so much, because Paul also says that "if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness." (Galatians 6:1) So, while, I would not expect our spiritual leaders, such as Hmama's ex-pastor, to ostracize her XH (although, according to Paul, it is an option), it would be incumbent upon him to "restore him". How that looks? I dunno, but I don't think standing back and doing nothing is it (except pray, which I am sure is part of it). And then to withhold assistance/friendship/fellowship to the one's who have been injured just blows me away. As a friend, he shouldn't take sides, but as a pastor, he should take the side of the injured, the one who did not sin within the marriage, not blatantly cut her off, and then allowing the process of the adulterer gaining priesthood.

Anyway, Hmama, you are doing awesome now, no thanks to that pastor. It goes to show you that if your XH could be a leader in a church, then I just wonder at how the process works (the wolf guarding the chickens kinda thing).

Take care.
some brief updates...

I'm in my last week as a school nurse, before moving on Monday to research. this is bittersweet, and leaving is hard. I'm leaving friends behind--altho I definitely plan to stay in touch.

xH is gone on business for a week out of town. D14 is missing him, and missing the gf. I'm thinking this is a good thing, really; she's not pining away, just mentions it (and the cats she also misses) from time to time.

Texas prof may not be visiting after all Memorial Day week. His college daughter has a program that he may need to provide transportation to, altho that may all fall thru. nope, I don't think it's an excuse; he's not happy about it. Before I knew about the potential change in plans, I asked him--in preparation for the visit, if he is "involved" with anyone. Long, thoughtful reply that he thought I'd freak out over--dating a few, not "involved," doesn't want involvement or emotional intensity right now, or until his bipolar son is back home (could be a few years). He was very gracious and grateful about my support and encouragement. Going hiking with one of them this weekend, altho she's seriously bipolar (and doing all-day outpt psych therapy daily); doesn't want to get involved with her for that reason, but I pointed out that she is pretty fragile and vulnerable and could easily misinterpret his kindness. hmmm. also told him I was beginning to feel like his sister....
I've been so involved in my job transition and D14's upcoming graduation that I didn't realize...last year at this time I was in mediation. Specifically, April 22 I think, with the divorce being final on April 24--and signed on our 15th anniversary, May 21. It's good to be a year out from all of that, to have it all behind me. It's been a year of so much healing and moving forward; I still don't feel like I'm completely "alive" and like my life has a definite direction, but maybe I just haven't adjusted to single parenthood completely. I have friends--a different group of them. I will be starting a job that will allow me to feel financially secure. D14 is doing okay--and hopefully leaving a dysfunctional school environment will help her feel a little less anxious. I have a kinda-sorta relationship which is moving appropriately slowly with someone who's kind, healthy and supportive (altho 800 miles away!) and trying to learn to negotiate that in a healthy way myself. I have peace in most ways besides financial (and that should be resolving) and I like myself for the first time in recent memory, and I understand how my mind functions and how I heal and how I go wrong--for the very first time. All in all, not a bad year. And next April...I can hardly wait!
Wow and what a big turn around from even a couple of months ago!! I am so happy for you and proud of you. good things are going to keep coming your way. I feel it!

kat
momentum. seems like when things take a downhill turn, they continue that way but pick up speed. and likewise, when they start looking up, they continue generally positively. that's hoosier's first law of divorce recovery.

a corollary is--there's usually a big ugly chasm just before the plateau where everything smooths out.
Quote:
a corollary is--there's usually a big ugly chasm just before the plateau where everything smooths out.

Or, a smooth grassy hill, and on the other side a surprise, a meadow with spring flowers like daisies and cornflowers; green grass where one can rest looking up at the blue sky where puffy little clouds drift by and you can guess what it looks like; shady fruit trees where you can read a book you've been wanting to in a long time --- well you get my drift, I'm sure.

Deny the chasm --- it's behind you now. If anything, perhaps a little dip, but you can see on the other side where you are going. Past the meadow is adventure; you just have to rest some now, and fortify your defences.

Just my thoughts ... if I were in your position that is. grin
hey, I'd be happy to stay in that meadow for awhile! and the chasm always looks like just a little dip from the other side!
I just had to tell D14 that she won't be able to go to Chicago on her choir tour this June. xH is not willing to pay for it and let me pay him back my portion, nor will he ask her wealthy uncles to help with it. I really, really hate this. She doesn't get to do much at all, we haven't been anywhere on vacation--or even away for a weekend--in several years. But it's all I can do--and sometimes more than I can do--to keep all the utilities on.
I thought YOU were going to ask the wealthy relatives? Or did I misunderstand that? confused

I think you should.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I thought YOU were going to ask the wealthy relatives? Or did I misunderstand that? confused

I think you should.

Puppy

they haven't replied to my invitations to graduation. they'd be highly unlikely to respond positively to a request for $$ from me. the deadline date has passed anyway, and I need to let them know by Friday if I can come up with the money.
Hoosiermama, it really does hurt when we see our kids hurt and know there's nothing we can do about it. That's often our deepest pain because as adults we got to make our own choices, granted the options weren't always that great, but our kids were and still are the innocent bystanders. I feel for you.
hm,

All good to read! Congrats!
HM,
how much money is that trip anyway? Was H going to pay HIS part? Can you pay it with CC and give his part as payment and then next month or the month after your part? I mean, I dont know how things are but we can think of a way? No?

A year brought so many changes for you. You must be VERY VERY proud of yourself.
xxx
K
Thanks, K. The trip is ~$800, which includes hotels, bus, meals, entertainment, a big sailboat trip on Lake Michigan...the bad part, however, is that I still owe ~$500 choir tuition for the year. Last year xH covered it all, and never told me that he intended to cover none of it this year or I'd have applied for a scholarship. And tuition must be current before they can tour.

I wish I could charge some of it--but I have no credit. The divorce and subsequent financial problems completely wiped out 30+ years of excellent credit. So I don't have that as a safety net. I have tried to brainstorm all the ways I know how, and I just can't find a way, especially with the new job paying monthly--so I have no paycheck in May at all. I'll be fine in June--but it's too late. xH is going to contact the choir financial person (wow--just a little bit late there, hun?) to see if he can work something out. I think he believed I was holding out and may now really get it that I'm this strapped, so he may tap his resources. Keeping my fingers crossed and tossing prayers to St. Jude!

Aside from that, yes--lots of growth in a year in spite of the adversity. I don't know that I'm proud of myself as much as I'm grateful for the grace to work through all I had to work thru and come out with positives. Thanks.
And I think I have decided how I'm going to respond to xH's pastor's patronizing little note.

Since he seems to find adultery a rather ambiguous thing, I'm going to disambiguify it for him, and spell out the consequences it's had for D14 and I over the past 2 years. In very practical terms. Just so he knows adultery is not some theoretical, philosophical little conundrum as he appears to think, but a real evil that devastates the lives of those left behind. I never want him to pussyfoot his way thru anyone's life again, because people count on him as a shepherd. That's what ordination does--and he's falling far short.
Or you could just let it go and move on. You are assuming that he chose to act as he has out of ignorance of the facts. I think this is a conscious decision on how he will shephard his flock and you don't agree with it. So be it, but I'd just move on personally. I can't imagine anything is to be gained by continuing this with him except more frustration for you.
You have a point. I just hate the thought of him sitting smugly at his desk thinking, "whew, I defused that one. it's all good." and then repeating this kind of thing in the future with someone else. no, I can't control that, but he's thinking he's a good guy, and he's really a cowardly weasel and I think he should get called on it--and clearly, nobody's doing that.
Here goes:
Dear Pastor Cowardly Weasel,
You may be thinking "whew, I defused that one. It's all good" Well I'm here to tell you that you are not the "good guy" in all this. Because of your lack of spine and leadership my family has suffered the following: (fill in the blank). I hope you now realize what a destructive influence you have been on myself and my family. May you fry in Hell.
God bless.
Hoosiermama.

You may want to edit it a bit.
Or you may want to pray for guidance as to how to approach this situation in a manner that will be constructive, not vindictive and could possibly make a difference. I don't see spewing anger, if that is your plan or attempting to inflict hurt on someone you feel has betrayed you is the route to go. Forgiveness is a bitch, but we're told that's the way to go. Darn that bible anyway! Those are just some thoughts for you to ponder in regards to this sitch. I hope you can come up with something that is appropriate if you choose to take action. Take care.
lol!! that's not exactly what I had planned to say!!

see, I was fine keeping my distance from the guy, but when he chose to answer my request for no further emails, and answer it with such a condescending, self-congratulatory, patronizing note, he took it to another level. If he had, even once, checked in over the past 2 years on either me or my daughter--just to see if we were keeping body and soul together--I might feel differently. And my intent isn't to blame him for my woes. It's to point out that adultery isn't just a benign embarassment that should be covered over and given the benefit of the doubt, but has real effects on those who get discarded, by illustrating what we've lived with as a result of the decisions of this man he's allowed to take public leadership positions in the parish. Not spewing anger, not inflicting hurt, but enlightening him on the reality of the situation. Then, armed with the facts, he can decide how he might respond to future similar situations in a way that doesn't excuse the harm being done.
I can see it might be constructive to say what you would have liked from him, what might have made a difference to you and your D e.g. checking on us once in a while etc. I think often Pastors get so busy with the illnesses, deaths etc that those who aren't demanding their attention can get left at the wayside. I also think they often leave contact up to the person because one person can be overjoyed at being contacted while another may feel they are being intruded on. Either way,it'a tough job and I wouldn't want to do it! I know there have been times when I've sat and cried and carried on for two hours and my Pastor has sat there, listened and been quite empathetic yet he never comes up to me to say "Hey, just wondering how you're doing with that sitch we discussed" But, I also know that the guy is there for everybody day or night and works seven days a week (not that he should). I don't know anything about your Pastor but he may have some great qualities in other ways but if you feel you could be of help by passing on what would have helped you, then go for it! That can't hurt a bit.
that's a good point; I think I would have addressed that as "what I would have done as a pastoral minister" sort of thing--because I have been one. He's not my pastor--he's xH's, in a different denomination, but because xH entered the priesthood process while we were still married, the pastor and the discernment committees made it very clear that even tho I was not actually a member that they were there for my support as well. And he made it clear 2 years ago when I asked him to talk to xH (in the first week after he left, and right after I discovered the emails confirming the affair) that because of the awkwardness of the situation, he would not be talking to me about it again. But--since he chose to make contact now, and it was apparently only to assuage his own discomfort, I figured this is an opportunity to engage the situation.
ps--and it's not like he "didn't take sides" in this. by discarding D14 and myself and supporting xH's movement toward priesthood, taking a leadership role in the congregation and being active in leading liturgies, he DID behave as if xH had the right to shuck off a family that no longer suited his needs.
Originally Posted By: whatisis
Or you could just let it go and move on. You are assuming that he chose to act as he has out of ignorance of the facts. I think this is a conscious decision on how he will shephard his flock and you don't agree with it. So be it, but I'd just move on personally. I can't imagine anything is to be gained by continuing this with him except more frustration for you.


I disagree.

Sometimes something is simply "The Right Thing to Do." As a Christian and a pastoral minister, and the one (of two) DIRECTLY affected by this, I think Hoozh should not only reply to the guy in the manner she's suggested, but I think a copy should be sent to his bishop (or whomever his "supervisor" is).

It's simple Christian accountability, one to another, in my opinion. Turning a blind eye to HIS lack of leadership here would make Hoozh no less complicit, in that she would be doing exactly what she feels HE was doing wrong here ("not getting involved"/"letting it go").

Just my (four) cents.

Puppy
Doing the right thing is not always the answer. If continuing to dwell on this and be bitter is stopping a person from doing more constructive things with their time, then it is probably best to let go and move on. If that weren't the case, most of us could still make a case for "doing the right" thing by staying in horribly loveless, faithless marriages. There is doing right at any cost and doing right in a healthy way. Sometimes the consequences may be grave and to do the right thing is the only thing we can do in order to live with ourselves, regardless of the cost, but this isn't one of those cases. This is a real choice situation. So, either way Hoosierm just do what you gotta do and move on.
Did that make sense?
thanks, pup. I'm afraid that sending a copy to the bishop would simply get him congratulated. Currently, this denomination is locally dealing with one pastor who's charged with leading a male prostitution ring, and another who's been a bit too public with his affairs with parishioners. this guy was attempting to avoid scandal by brushing this under the carpet. that will be applauded.
Wow, he sounds like the best of the bunch! Is this a Satanic Order he's ordained into? grin
Originally Posted By: whatisis
Doing the right thing is not always the answer. If continuing to dwell on this and be bitter is stopping a person from doing more constructive things with their time, then it is probably best to let go and move on. If that weren't the case, most of us could still make a case for "doing the right" thing by staying in horribly loveless, faithless marriages. There is doing right at any cost and doing right in a healthy way. Sometimes the consequences may be grave and to do the right thing is the only thing we can do in order to live with ourselves, regardless of the cost, but this isn't one of those cases. This is a real choice situation. So, either way Hoosierm just do what you gotta do and move on.
Did that make sense?


It would if it was keeping Hoozh bitter, and from moving on with her life. Since I know her fairly well, I can tell you with great confidence that it is doing neither, and so I really do think this just falls into "The Right Thing to Do" category. There was a time, when her wounds were still too fresh, that I think such a move may have been counter-productive, but I think HM is in a really good place now, mentally and emotionally.

Jesus knew when to forgive, but He also knew when it was time to throw over the moneychangers' tables. He (and His Father) have always had a higher standard of "those to whom much has been given," spiritually, and I think Hoozh's exH and this pastor bear a grave responsibility for their behavior here. I see nothing wrong in calling the supposed man of God to task for this, one sister to another brother.

Plus, it's just good ol' "Mamabear". cool

Puppy
depends upon what you think of the episcopal church, I suppose.
Another possible reply to this pastor's letter: "I understand you had to say what you did to make yourself feel better, but now that you have, I hope you realize the pain that EX's choice to commit adultery has had on myself and my daughter (so that the next person who comes to you with this problem would not be so ignored) - when EX was off having fun with his mistress, we were often left without the funds to pay for heating, electricity, little food, and having to beg him for loans to cover these items. Even now, I am unable to send my daughter on a trip because of lack of funds, all because my EX decided to commit adultery and leave our family for no reason that I can understand or that he was able to explain coherently to me. But, thanks be to God, I am in a good place now, at peace. I don't need you to explain the unexplainable --- why a pastor would fob off such a serious sin, just leaves me gob-smacked. It is not how I would've handled a similar situation. So, I would be glad if you and your church would just f...off (or, 'leave us alone' might be better). With all sincerity and the purest of Christian love and forgiveness, Hmama." crazy grin

Sorry about your daughter not going on the trip, Hmama! I am sure she will have many other memorable journeys in her life, and I hope she isn't feeling too left out from her schoolmates.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
depends upon what you think of the episcopal church, I suppose.


Episcopal would be the Anglican church in Canada, right? I'm a Nazarene and I think the Anglican/Episcopal church might be a little too liberal for us! Our church has actually loosened up on stuff over the years as it's now permissible to dance with the opposite sex! The only stipulation seems to be, as my Pastor put it, "if the way you're dancing with a woman makes you want to take her home, then you should find another dance" Heck, if a woman knows my name that's enough for me to want to take her home, I guess I just have to continually change my name in the course of an evening! grin
Well I digress (as unbelievable as that may seem to some), I think Hmama should do what she thinks is right in regards to this Pastor who is not her Pastor, tag him and bag him...as long as it's done in the proper spirit. crazy
I like it, BeingMe!! Maybe I should write 2 versions--one for me to vent, and one for him--to teach!!
Dear Wii--yeah, I agree--the Episcopal Church is pretty doggone liberal. From the outside (and I apologize for potential offense here) it appears that self-actualization is the highest goal and the Ten Commandments no longer apply. Don't really know how I feel about public censure and discipline, but certainly it would seem that holding xH up as a positive example is ill-advised, and keeping him in the pew until things can sbe determined might be the wisest strategy. And either way, you don't throw those left behind under the bus just because it's awkward.
I know in my church this subject came up for whatever reason and our Pastor said that when individuals want to take leadership positions but are known to be carrying on in sinful ways he sits down and tells them they can't have that position and they need to be willing to change whatever the behaviour is. He says sometimes it goes well but at other times the individual chooses to leave the church. It doesn't happen often he said, but it does happen. So I think committing adultery with no remorse might fit such a category!
yes, one would think so. especially since I had a rather visible spot at various church functions.
That's why churches should always keep a blow up doll on hand, just to fill in those empty visible spots at functions. It sure beats dealing with the issue, doesn't it! Besides, it's the meek that shall inherit the earth anyway, right? crazy
ah, if only I had had this advice while I was still working in the parish!
hm... how is the new job going?
thanks for asking...

mostly I'm reading manuals and trying to absorb what seems like a million unrelated facts. no one expects me to be up to speed for 6-8 months--and that's probably pretty accurate. big learning curve here.

and found out today that our Principal Investigator--the physician overseeing the studies--is leaving in 10 weeks!! I have no idea of the implications of all this; unlikely that we'll all be shifted around, at least not in the next year, but there's no obvious replacement for him, and no one is sure if they'll re-hire his position, or when. nice guy, easy to work with--I hate to see him go. but beyond that, no idea what this will all entail.

Texas professor hottie is coming to visit in a week or so. I vascillate between excitement and abject panic! turns out he won't be here for D14's graduation after all, so that whole quandary is moot.

and tomorrow is the 2nd anniversary of the bomb. how far I've come since then. thinking back, it's a sick feeling, almost makes me nauseated remembering how it felt, how terrifying it all was. but I am much more whole and solid now than I ever was with xH; sometimes lonely, but not for him, just lonely.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Texas professor hottie is coming to visit in a week or so. I vascillate between excitement and abject panic!
Lucky girl! And good he won't be there for D's grad
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...sometimes lonely, but not for him, just lonely.
I hear ya. I just realized I'm there now myself and didn't realize it for a while. I think it's great. Lotta unmet needs. But don't need or want X to get them met. They'll get met. Eventually by someone new.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


and tomorrow is the 2nd anniversary of the bomb. how far I've come since then. thinking back, it's a sick feeling, almost makes me nauseated remembering how it felt, how terrifying it all was. but I am much more whole and solid now than I ever was with xH; sometimes lonely, but not for him, just lonely.



Wow, Hoozh, I had forgotten that we shared almost exactly the same dates (just one year apart). I HATE THIS TIME OF YEAR NOW. When I go back and re-read my old journal, I just get sick to my stomach -- and angry.

Here I am, feeling sorry for myself today and going off about my own triggers, and I had forgotten these were your tough calendar days as well. Mea culpa for my DAM-ness!!

Puppy
Yo, Pup,
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
When I go back and re-read my old journal, I just get sick to my stomach -- and angry.Puppy
Stop reading it.
Burn it, maybe. Read it? No.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Texas professor hottie is coming to visit in a week or so. I vascillate between excitement and abject panic!
Lucky girl! And good he won't be there for D's grad
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...sometimes lonely, but not for him, just lonely.
I hear ya. I just realized I'm there now myself and didn't realize it for a while. I think it's great. Lotta unmet needs. But don't need or want X to get them met. They'll get met. Eventually by someone new.


yeah, I was on the fence about the whole coming to graduation thing--thought I'd just let it play out and see what happened. as expected, it became highly inconvenient/impossible, so the decision was made by someone with more wisdom than us!

and not to sound trite, but I will consider myself on the next level when I can meet my own needs without "needing" someone else. wanting is okay, needing not so much ok. and I'm pretty close.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


and tomorrow is the 2nd anniversary of the bomb. how far I've come since then. thinking back, it's a sick feeling, almost makes me nauseated remembering how it felt, how terrifying it all was. but I am much more whole and solid now than I ever was with xH; sometimes lonely, but not for him, just lonely.

oh, stop it, pup! I'm doing fine--celebrating, even, in a way, how far I've come and how much I've grown in ways that needed to happen--but probably would never have happened while I was dealing with xH and a difficult marriage, and a great job in a very sick setting. (whoa--now that's a run-on sentence!)


Wow, Hoozh, I had forgotten that we shared almost exactly the same dates (just one year apart). I HATE THIS TIME OF YEAR NOW. When I go back and re-read my old journal, I just get sick to my stomach -- and angry.

Here I am, feeling sorry for myself today and going off about my own triggers, and I had forgotten these were your tough calendar days as well. Mea culpa for my DAM-ness!!

Puppy
oops, that last post got really messed up! my response is the paragraph right under my own quote box. what I was responding to, from Puppy, is below that. hmmmm.
ugh; found out today that xH never put D14 on his insurance this year, so I'll be doing that with my new insurance (which is amazingly inexpensive). and now wants to renegotiate CS and fall tuition. as in, less CS (he's already at about the minimum possible), and a 50/50 tuition split. I make about 60% of his salary. not exactly equitable! but I think he's probably just sniffing around to see my response, since I got a raise with the new job.

jerk.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
and not to sound trite, but I will consider myself on the next level when I can meet my own needs without "needing" someone else. wanting is okay, needing not so much ok. and I'm pretty close.
God, not trite at all. I agree completely. Am learning to - and that I can and should - meet my own needs.
I'll be ready for another R when I'm convinced I don't need another R.

Though some "unmet needs" do require another person whistle
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
and not to sound trite, but I will consider myself on the next level when I can meet my own needs without "needing" someone else. wanting is okay, needing not so much ok. and I'm pretty close.
God, not trite at all. I agree completely. Am learning to - and that I can and should - meet my own needs.
I'll be ready for another R when I'm convinced I don't need another R.

Though some "unmet needs" do require another person whistle

well, this is true!! but often it just isn't worth all the trouble it entails. (but not always....)
You are very funny!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
You are very funny!

keeps me sane!

I found out recently that I laugh very loudly; people where I worked knew I had arrived because they could hear my laugh. I kinda like that.
The CS stuff is going to be interesting. I'm wondering if it's going to be a yearly -- hey, I could use more kind of thing?
Originally Posted By: ClingingToHope
The CS stuff is going to be interesting. I'm wondering if it's going to be a yearly -- hey, I could use more kind of thing?

well, a month or so ago he said he was fine with things as is, he was used to it and budgeted for it. now he no longer pays for insurance, wants to pay less CS and tuition. gotta remember, this is the man who walked into mediation asking "how long do I have to keep paying support?" even his attorney was appalled and shut him up. he's entitled to do what he wants, when he wants to, and just because we've been struggling to keep the bills paid for 2 years, that certainly shouldn't inconvenience him. I think you're right--it's going to come up periodically when he thinks he can benefit.
oh--almost forgot. xH shot me an email earlier today about D14 spending the weekend with him; Saturday is a surprise birthday party for a friend of his and Sunday is graduation blessings at his church. ummmm...Saturday is MY birthday, thank you very much, and she's spending it with ME. later on he asked how old I am--and was off by several years with his guess (but I let him think he was correct). hard to believe I was married to this man for almost 15 years.
Hey HM! Saturday is my twins' birthday too (how does one put that into correct English grammar?). They'll be 23 years old.

Just maybe, you can get more money out of XH, since he isn't paying insurance? Wouldn't that be a shock if he asks to pay less, then ends up having to pay more? You are stronger now, more assured since he left, and I bet you will have the confidence and gall to be able to do so. It would certainly stop any yearly trip to the courthouse.
Do you mean he just stopped paying for insurance that he was supposed to be paying for? I would think that would not look very good for him. a$$hole... that is all I have to say about him... pardon my french smirk
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
oh--almost forgot. xH shot me an email earlier today about D14 spending the weekend with him; Saturday is a surprise birthday party for a friend of his and Sunday is graduation blessings at his church. ummmm...Saturday is MY birthday, thank you very much, and she's spending it with ME. later on he asked how old I am--and was off by several years with his guess (but I let him think he was correct). hard to believe I was married to this man for almost 15 years.


Narcissist! Or, maybe just an ASS.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
oh--almost forgot. xH shot me an email earlier today about D14 spending the weekend with him; Saturday is a surprise birthday party for a friend of his and Sunday is graduation blessings at his church. ummmm...Saturday is MY birthday, thank you very much, and she's spending it with ME. later on he asked how old I am--and was off by several years with his guess (but I let him think he was correct). hard to believe I was married to this man for almost 15 years.


Narcissist! Or, maybe just an ASS.

Puppy
or both.
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
Do you mean he just stopped paying for insurance that he was supposed to be paying for? I would think that would not look very good for him. a$$hole... that is all I have to say about him... pardon my french smirk

well, yeah, that's pretty much what he did. because I didn't get him a copy of her birth certificate. which I would have done had I known he needed it. he also works 2 minutes away from the state board of health, where he could easily obtain a copy for himself.
Do you have insurance covered in your custody agreement? If so then he is in violation and he need to take care of it ASAP!
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Hey HM! Saturday is my twins' birthday too (how does one put that into correct English grammar?). They'll be 23 years old.

Just maybe, you can get more money out of XH, since he isn't paying insurance? Wouldn't that be a shock if he asks to pay less, then ends up having to pay more? You are stronger now, more assured since he left, and I bet you will have the confidence and gall to be able to do so. It would certainly stop any yearly trip to the courthouse.
probably not worth the effort, really. I'd truly rather not have to depend upon his cash. for obvious reasons.
Originally Posted By: bright_new_day
Do you have insurance covered in your custody agreement? If so then he is in violation and he need to take care of it ASAP!
yes, he is in violation. however, he has essentially screwed it up and cannot make changes at this point. it will cost me $10 per month to add her to mine (my new benefits are incredibly good). and I made it clear we would renegotiate it in November with open enrollment.
Narcassist!? Since he is in violation, then this is your opportunity to try and get more out of him. It's nice to say you don't want anything from him, but this is for your daughter. He is in essence wanting money from you that should go to her. He has to step up to his responsibility. Demand more, or he will continue to go to court, expecting to pay less CS. Even if you could support yourselves without him, still take the CS. You can put it into a savings account for D.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Hey HM! Saturday is my twins' birthday too (how does one put that into correct English grammar?). They'll be 23 years old.

Just maybe, you can get more money out of XH, since he isn't paying insurance? Wouldn't that be a shock if he asks to pay less, then ends up having to pay more? You are stronger now, more assured since he left, and I bet you will have the confidence and gall to be able to do so. It would certainly stop any yearly trip to the courthouse.
probably not worth the effort, really. I'd truly rather not have to depend upon his cash. for obvious reasons.


I disagree. There's no better way to avoid going on defense, than to show a credible threat of being willing to go on OFFENSE.

"Hey, little brother, I think you still owe me five bucks."

"No, YOU actually owe ME two bucks. I wasn't going to bring it up, but now that you did, fork it over."

"Nevermind!"
smirk

Seriously, Hoozh, there's no better way to set the tone for any future shenanigans that The Wiccahumper might be contemplatin' than to do a counter-claim against him for this.

Puppy
OMG Puppy I seriously just spit all over my monitor and I am still ROFL!!!! Came out my nose and everything!

not to self, do not drink anything while perusing the DB site.
I will keep all that in mind. it's one of those situations in which you give him an inch and he'll take a mile. I saw my insurance info and told him I'd be open to negotiating come November. and it's a good thing I did, because otherwise I wouldn't have known that D14 is not covered. and I feel certain he was just going to see how far he could get, throwing in CS and tuition. if I push back at all, he'll give in. and when I pointed out that he recently said he was fine with CS as is, and that a 50/50 tuition split was inequitable, he just said, "ok." that's as far as it will go for him, I'm certain.
today would be my 16th wedding anniversary. and I feel...nada. perhaps a dash of gratitude that I don't have to deal with xH and his narcissism, but no sadness.
I love reading how far you have come in this journey hm, you are an inspiration. My 21st is coming up in a couple of weeks. I think I will be okay too smile
Happy not-anniversary, Hoozh. D in your case might actually be something to celebrate. Your X takes the cake!
Happy May 21 ......is your ex still with WICCA WOMAN???
Originally Posted By: Ilikemenow
Happy May 21 ......is your ex still with WICCA WOMAN???

nope, he dumped her about a month or so ago. had been seeing both her and a woman named Susie--a counselor with the Employee Assistance Program, and then ended it with Wicca Woman. she was less than happy; he actually asked me if I had contacted her because there would be no other reason she's be upset (ummmm--how about that he dumped her for someone else...sound familiar, Wicca Woman?) D14 really likes Susie, and Susie has been a good advocate for her, seems very normal, and treats both of us respectfully. so I'm thinking she's a short-timer because she'll get a clue here soon!
What is it they say...what goes around comes around.....karma for Wicca Woman....I have told my daughter if dad never comes back home I wish he would find another woman one who is not the one he left us for. This is the only way our kids will ever be able to come and visit him.. while this one is still in the picture he will alienate himself from our kids. in their eyes she will always be the homewrecker who took their dad....
Glad to hear things have looked up for you, your new job...raise I remember reading at times you had no money to pay a utility bill...lived on like 50 bucks a month for groceries for you and daughter..now look at you... you have made it to the top of that big big mountain...I am so happy for you.....may God continue to bless you....do you still pray for his return if I could ask??? Doesnt sound like you need him but I know you are a woman of faith.just wondering? You should be so proud of yourself....congrats......much love and blessings Irma
Thank you, Irma. I'm not sure that I'm proud of myself...I have received so much grace over the past two years. without that, I would never have made it through. I have so many blessings to be thankful for.

no, I no longer pray for his return. I don't want him to return--I would never be able to trust him again. his repeated emotional abandonment evolved into physical abandonment. he was never really "there" except, perhaps, in the first year or so, and I continued to blame myself for being inadequate. I tried so hard to be what he wanted--which, ultimately, was for me to be invisible, to meet his needs but ignore my own. he truly is a narcissist, in the clinical sense...really has no ability to understand others' points of view or needs, altho he can fake it well in the beginning. In many ways I have forgiven him (but that's a process, and not a destination) but I will never be vulnerable to him again. nor will I ever need anyone again so much that I try to disappear, or try not to have any needs. I don't know if I even ever want to fall in love again--I trust myself much more now, but that kind of vulnerability is frightening. and I like myself too--finally. not sure I've ever really liked myself before! with every crisis or loss in my life (and there have been many, many painful times), I've been able to look back and discover the lessons in the pain, and the grace with which God was able to redeem the situation. and that's not to say that God gave me the pain so I'd grow--I don't believe it "works" like that. but when horrific things happen, or people make horrific choices resulting in great pain for others, I believe with everything in me that God will eventually redeem the situation, deliver us from pain, and give us healing if we are open to it. my life is an example of that.
Well said, HM! I have seen the way you have blossomed over the last 2 years. Your words breath confidence in yourself. I can identify with you where falling in love again is concerned. I don't think I love my H romantically anymore, and doubt I will ever trust anyone else with my heart again. A reason why I stay, and we work well together as friends.

Take care.
thank you, as always, BeingMe. I appreciate the affirmation; sometimes it's difficult to see one's own "blossoming." I do know that over the past 8-10 weeks I've turned a corner, feel stronger and more joyful, look to the future instead of grieving the past. part of it was due to the new job (and better income), a bigger part was reading "Journey from Abandonment to Healing" and recognizing the unique stages of grief in this process and then moving forward thru them, part was feeling connected to friends old and new and hence less isolated and ostracized. this is not to say there won't be occasional bad days or bad periods of time, but it's as if I'm alive again and not just slogging thru pain 24/7.

I do know that being present at events at my daughter's school/church (where I used to work) send me into a tailspin; not that I seek them out, but some are obligatory. it just isn't healthy for me, and I am so happy that her upcoming graduation (a week from Tuesday next) means I can put that entire dysfunctional system in my past. perhaps there will one day be peace with it, but for now the best thing for both of us is to make a "new start" as D14 often reminds me.

as for falling in love, oh--there are definitely days when I want to feel all those wonderful feelings again, to be giddy, to lose myself in the rapture of it all. but I don't know if I'll ever be able to see it without the filter of knowing about brain chemicals, seeing the "psychophysiology" of the whole thing. and that may or may not steal some of the magic!! but there's certainly no desperation for it. my friend who's coming for a visit this week...yes, I love him. yes, I think there's some serious potential for a very good and healthy relationship there. and I very much value his presence in my life and the support that we've been able to be to one another during the past painful year-and-a-half (we reconnected about 8 months after each of us had been left by our spouses). But I also know that, as much as it might feel otherwise, I don't really know him all that well. I know who he IS, always did--and that's a very good, real, kind person. but aside from that, it's difficult to get to know someone from such a distance, especially when we each have so many scars and such a protective wall built up around ourselves. I don't think I know him well enough to say I'm "in love" with him, to be that vulnerable; what I do know, I love and respect and it makes me want to get to know him better. and perhaps that will happen during this visit. and that's my only goal, really--to spend some relaxed time together, to get to know each other, to just "be" together and that's all. and then we'll see where that leaves us. because of the circumstances we've lived with, we have had a lot of intensity, a lot of "going deep" and helping each other process and heal and grow. it will be good to just be hoosiermama and Texasdaddy hanging out together. do I hope that it brings us closer? of course. but I don't feel any urgency to "make" that happen. and I think that's a good place to be.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...I don't feel any urgency to "make" that happen. and I think that's a good place to be.
I think that's the healthiest place to be.
Good for you.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...I don't feel any urgency to "make" that happen. and I think that's a good place to be.
I think that's the healthiest place to be.
Good for you.

yeah, well let's just see how I am "in the moment"! which is...tomorrow!
Tomorrow? Mr. Texas is coming tomorrow? Shreeeeek! I am so excited for you. Do you have any butterflies in your tummy? Or, are you calm and collected?

Have fun!
yes, tomorrow!!! omg. I feel like a fifteen-year-old. in part because Mother Nature decided to pay a surprise visit (sorry guys!! just an inconvenient fact of life) unpredictably (like when I was 15). and yes, the butterflies are threatening to drag me away!!!! he'll be meeting other friends and then family, from Wednesday afternoon, then returning on Memorial Day.
hm,
Relax.
Enjoy.
Be hoosiermama.
Let it be.
Have fun!
words of wisdom, gardener. I plan to heed them.

first, tho, I have to get thru 8 hours of work orientation: corporate compliance, the joys of HIPAA, fire safety, confidentiality...yawn.....and my mind will certainly not be on those things!!! I'll see him tomorrow evening.
update--

so Texas professor is in town now. we spent last evening/night together, had breakfast, then had coffee for 2 hours. lots of talking about a variety of things, lots of...not talking. a lovely time overall, and he is now off to see family, then friends from grad school, then to the race (you know, that race we have here in Indianapolis in May!) and he will be back on my side of town on Memorial Day, then leaving the next day.

haven't seen each other for a year...so there was some awkwardness at times. but not too bad. once we started talking, it was very comfortable...we could always talk about anything together, even 28+ years ago. and we hit some deep topics, ranging from the need for public transit to community health to faith to grace to evil. he talked some about his son (in prison, bipolar, not well-managed there), some about his role in the failed marriage--as I also did. prior to his visit, we sort of cleared the air about "expectations" or lack thereof, and the goal was just to spend some time together relaxing, getting to know each other a bit better. it will be awhile before he wants to be in an exclusive, serious relationship--and that's probably ok; after 25 years of marriage, much of it "horrible," 2 years isn't a lot of recovery time. he spent quite a bit of time trying to convince me it was time to date--which I really feel no big need to do. not because of him, just because I'm pretty happy right now and I just want to dwell in the contentment for awhile. I mentioned that I had been in very few relationships, most were unhealthy, and then...there's this one. which feels very comfortable, very healthy--but then, he's in Texas, I'm here, we get together infrequently but communicate a lot and have been helpful in each others' healing (which has been significant since this time last year). and so we see each other at our best and don't have to deal with the day-to-day. neither of us is real sure we ever want to marry again...but both of us miss being married--the positive parts, like being an intact family, having someone to come home to, to sleep with, to talk to, to support and be supported by. except most of those parts were long in the past for both of us. we both value this relationship greatly, and I think we both fear losing the deep friendship if things got bad romantically. but at this point, neither of us feels desperate or "needs" this...and yet, here we still are.

I don't quite know what to do with this. the more I get to know him (as he is today, as well as how he was 28 years ago) the more I respect and value who he is. and I know that if he became serious with someone else (and I really don't know how likely that is) that person would NOT be comfortable with our relationship, as much as he says they'd have to accept it (well, obviously the physical part would have to change...and it's hard to put that genie back in the bottle!)--I really don't see anyone not feeling threatened by the emotional intimacy we have.

this feels safer, more comfortable than any relationship I've ever had; I'm far healthier than I've ever been when in a relationship. I would really like to give this a chance, and I don't know how patient I'm going to have to be for how long. I don't feel any urgency, but I would truly hate to lose this intimacy and positive, healthy support.

so I'm open to wisdom. anyone got any?
ok, no wisdom at all? nobody's gonna tell me I'm obsessing, I'm looking for problems where there aren't any??!! oh, come on now!!

ok, so I was hormonal. I'm better now. interesting thing I realized today--he's a real person now, which is different from conceptual. warts and all. and I kinda like the real person even better than the conceptual one.

as for dating...don't need the drama right now. and really need to dwell in meeting my own emotional needs. not saying "never," but for the time being, I'm fine.

amazing how this stuff seems to go so much smoother for xH--once a target was identified, he moved in swiftly, assimilated that life form, and was one with it 24/7--until he got bored or sucked all the juices out and moved on to the next target. no loneliness, no eating alone, no holidays on his own...seems so simple for him.

and here I am, just trying to meet my own emotional needs. where's the fun in that??!!
I guess I will just say that I am in a similiar boat. Ex boyfriend from high school waded slowly back into my life. There is only 3.5 hours between us but he works like crazy traveling all over the state for work. I am still trying to figure my stuff out. So I guess the best I can say right now is..I hear ya!

hugs, kat
Love the X-Borg analogy!
kat--just a little survey here (yeah, small sample size; too bad!) do you find that you trust him or yourself less? it's something I struggle with...until recently I haven't trusted myself to make decent choices. and now...I don't trust anyone not to abandon me.
thanks; it's often used in describing some of the local health care systems, so I "assimilated" it myself!
so...my first new paycheck got deposited overnight. I am no longer poor!!!!!!!!!!! omg--the past 2 years have been such an incredible financial struggle...and now, I'm stable. the relief I feel...I have no words for. putting a chunk into savings this afternoon.

I still may lose my house. I've been on loan modification for the past year and a half or so, and they keep changing the requirements and starting over, and I've been following all the rules and they still keep screwing around with it. however, I'm hoping that the next time I send in a pay stub, they will be satisfied enough to finalize things and take me out of limbo.

I am so doing the happy dance!!!!!!!!!! funny--it's not a surprise, it's about the amount I anticipated and it came when I expected it...but to see the balance actually show up in my bank account makes it more real. ah...to no longer live in crisis!! what will that be like?!
((((HM))))

Good to hear. It all works its way out.

Hugs and blessings.
smile smile smile smile smile
hm.
No wisdom from me, just observations:
Talking, not talking, "lovely time" = how good for you!
What a wide range of conversation topics and honesty you shared, including his owning up to his role in his failed marriage, you owning up to yours.
Shared history, lack of expectations on both sides and the above seems like a great start.

It says a lot that he spent so much time trying to convince you to date again and that you have no strong need(iness) for dating and that you are enjoying happiness, contentment, and you for now. Very healthy.

I think you are wise to be factoring in the challenges of a long-distance relationship.

Honesty and comfort = companionship: a good start - or a good end goal if that's all you want or are ready for.

"What to do with it?" I'd just continue to go with it, see where/if it leads and enjoy this good thing you have at this moment.

You won't, "lose the intimacy and positive, healthy support" if it's real - which it seems to be right now.

Continue to be true to yourself and to be open to possibilities - not expectations.

Like I said, no wisdom, just observations from someone who would love to have your "dilemma" right now wink

What the hell. Enjoy it for all the good that it is right now. No more, no less.
ah, gardener, thank you so much for your reflections--which are filled with so much wisdom!

yes, I think this is about as real as it gets; and if I don't kill it with my insecurities and abandonment issues it will be miraculous...but I'm so much better in that way than I was even a few months ago. it's difficult to "live in the moment" (which is what I should be doing) and "enjoy this good thing I have at this moment" when I'm looking for negative motivations and clues of imminent abandonment. how long does this crap go on in our heads?!

I love what you said--be open to possibilities, not expectations. that is just profound in its simplicity and will become a mantra for me.

looking back from a few days (and looking forward to Monday)...it just feels very good, very comfortable, very warm. I've heard from him briefly a few times (he's visiting folks all over this area of the state)...and he is very much looking forward to Monday. and we were both clear on this...while the physical intimacy was absolutely great, it was the talking for hours--the emotional intimacy, the dropping of awkwardness and the transparency--that we loved the most about the time we spent together. had we not both had obligations, I think we would have spent all day sitting in Starbucks.

he says he challenged me because he cares, because I often challenge him (in different ways, tho). there just seemed to be some urgency in trying to convince me I need to be dating, and I still wonder why it was so important, so urgent. just the possibility I'll "learn things about myself that I'd never learn otherwise" seems rather vague to generate as much urgency as there seemed to be about it. I believe that if he persists in this "challenge" I'll have to challenge him about why this is so important to HIM.

ah--the challenges of a long-distance relationship. especially with someone who doesn't seem to define this as a relationship, and who has other non-relationships closer to home. nothing serious, nothing exclusive...

thank you so much, gardener, for your wisdom. the dilemma, honestly, is not "what to do with it." it's how to avoid sabotaging it. this is a kind, decent man with whom I share not just history and stuff in common, but outright synchronicity, and it seems so safe, comfortable, and honest; it's been healing for both of us so far. all of those things tell me to continue to go with it; just wish I could define it better so I know what I'm going with.
That is so awesome, Hmama! I am so happy for you. It must feel like Jupiter rolling off your shoulders. grin
that's pretty accurate, BeingMe! celebrated that and my daughter's last day of school by going out for her favorite...sushi!
...and I have to report a miracle in my daughter's life.

I'll try to cut to the chase...D14 has had a miserable couple of years in middle school. she was once part of a "triad" of friends, and you know how those things go--someone always gets cut out, and it was her. and these two girls have been unnecessarily mean and rude and awful to her, and it's hurt her so much because they used to be friends. and that has been happening on top of struggling with math, struggling with her father's choices, struggling with the music teacher's bullying. yesterday was her last day of school there (moving on to high school in the fall--yikers!) 7th graders write notes to the 8th graders, and hers consistently say what a nice kid she is, how much she's had to deal with and overcome but how she's done that, taken the high road, remained the kindest 8th grader in the class in spite of receiving so much unkindness. and then the biggie--students submitted old pictures that were made into a slide show video for them, and it was a very emotional time of looking back over the past 8-10 years (since preschool for most of them). after the video, these 2 ex-friends approached her separately. the meaner one said "You must think I'm a real jackass because that's how I've acted. I'm really sorry!" and the other one, who's a pathologic follower, said "D14, I've been a really horrible friend. please forgive me!!" it meant so much to my daughter to hear that, she was weeping as she told me, and it changed the whole character of her last day. it gave her some real closure, it allowed her to feel some sadness at leaving--which is appropriate after 10 years. I am sooooooooo happy about this I can hardly contain myself. in my language, it was the Holy Spirit working, but whatever happened, it was tremendously healing for D14. and I can't begin to express, either, how proud I am of her for maintaining who she is in spite of being treated like crap, for being the leader in character she set out to be at the beginning of the year even tho no adults acknowledged her for it--obviously the rest of the students were able to see it. (who got the character award? the girl who bullied her mercilessly....)

I'm so glad to see our days at this community drawing to an end, finally, and being able to put it behind us--and for having some closure, some goodness in that leaving amid all the pain involved.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
kat--just a little survey here (yeah, small sample size; too bad!) do you find that you trust him or yourself less? it's something I struggle with...until recently I haven't trusted myself to make decent choices. and now...I don't trust anyone not to abandon me.


I found myself becoming jealous of a friend of his. I have a friend(male) that I go have dinner with every couple of weeks, so I have a male/female friendship happening too. I really don't remember myself being the jealous type, but I guess too with all the new tech stuff, you find out things without even trying!

Hope that makes sense. Sorry it took a couple of days to respond, I have been busy!!

kat
oh, yeah. I can relate. I think it's the new tech stuff too--like posts popping up on fb that leave you wondering! I also think there's bound to be some big abandonment stuff for we WAW's; our antennae are up just looking for clues so we can anticipate that big stab in our heart that's undoubtedly right around the corner. I got that going on, plus the whole "you should be dating people" and the fact that he clearly has an active social life even if he is intent that he won't get "serious" about anyone at this point. trying hard just to live in the moment and enjoy, but I keep worrying about when he'll disappear.

when I asked about trusting yourself, I wasn't very clear...I meant are you having difficulty trusting your perceptions of reality, of other people, of potential romantic interests? that was something I really struggled with, but seem to have come to terms with.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...it's difficult to "live in the moment" (which is what I should be doing) and "enjoy this good thing I have at this moment" when I'm looking for negative motivations and clues of imminent abandonment. how long does this crap go on in our heads?!
It's a daily struggle and challenge which will go away if we work at it. I know some dismiss the whole inner child thing, but I also know that you - like me - don't. I have found that The Second Akeru Exercise in The Journey From Abandonment To Healing (henceforth to be known when I'm writing you as "JFATH" - too much typing otherwise!), on pages 102-115 in the paperback, has done me much good. It has helped me to identify, admit, and feel - deep emotions. "...forming a significant relationship with your emotional core," as Anderson puts it. It reveals to me what is really going on inside of me.

The "crap" as you put it is Hoosiergirlie crying out. She wants to, will be, must be heard...listened to (maybe for the first time ever). And talked to. Comforted. Reassured. And she has insights to offer.

As I've said before, Relationship Author Terry Real puts it best: the adaptive child must be heard, acknowledged, and then you've got to "pry her/his sticky fingers off the steering wheel." Adult you's got it now. Convince Hoosiergirlie of that - through "dialog" - and the "crap" begins to make profound survival sense. And dissipates a little bit - for me, anyway - each time I practice it.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...there just seemed to be some urgency in trying to convince me I need to be dating, and I still wonder why it was so important, so urgent. just the possibility I'll "learn things about myself that I'd never learn otherwise" seems rather vague to generate as much urgency as there seemed to be about it. I believe that if he persists in this "challenge" I'll have to challenge him about why this is so important to HIM.
Reading you re-word it and expound on it makes me think you might be seeing a red flag on his neediness. I could be wrong. But keep it in mind, is all. And, yes, be ready to challenge - or gently question - it. You're right on the money, there.

Susan Anderson is having "New York Open Center in Manhattan, Sunday June 13 2010 10:00 A.M. - 5:30 P.M. All day workshop: Abandonment to Healing: Overcoming Your Patterns of Self-sabotage. Register at 212 219 2527

www.opencenter.org/journey-from-abandonment-to-healing/

as per her website: www.abandonment.net/


I keep telling myself I will go if I can afford it. I'm going to go. I'm going to register Tuesday.

Peace,
Also, hm, I just read this:
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...struggling with the music teacher's bullying.
I would suggest confronting this, even if she is done with that school (but that's just me). mad
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...7th graders write notes to the 8th graders, and hers consistently say what a nice kid she is, how much she's had to deal with and overcome but how she's done that, taken the high road, remained the kindest 8th grader in the class in spite of receiving so much unkindness....
You are raising one fine young woman, there.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...after the video, these 2 ex-friends approached her separately. the meaner one said "You must think I'm a real jackass because that's how I've acted. I'm really sorry!" and the other one, who's a pathologic follower, said "D14, I've been a really horrible friend. please forgive me!!" it meant so much to my daughter to hear that, she was weeping as she told me, and it changed the whole character of her last day. it gave her some real closure, it allowed her to feel some sadness at leaving--which is appropriate after 10 years. I am sooooooooo happy about this I can hardly contain myself. in my language, it was the Holy Spirit working, but whatever happened, it was tremendously healing for D14. and I can't begin to express, either, how proud I am of her for maintaining who she is in spite of being treated like crap, for being the leader in character she set out to be at the beginning of the year even tho no adults acknowledged her for it--obviously the rest of the students were able to see it.
I can imagine that "proud" doesn't begin to cover what you feel!
Peace,
gardener--the thoughtfulness and depth of your replies is truly humbling. thank you so much.

yes, I am so very proud of my daughter. she's an amazing kid who will grow into an even more amazing adult, I'm certain. the depth of her intuitive understanding and compassion is incredible.

as for the music teacher...she was once a colleague of mine. when I first started working at the church, she developed breast cancer--stage III. I changed dressings, did visits, brought food, researched comfort measures...and she has survived and is officially cured. I brought her flowers that day to celebrate. and she bullies my daughter...who knows why. there's a kid every year that she blesses and a kid that she bullies...I've watched it for 10 years. this year it's my daughter. and to confront it--oh, believe me I have. over and over and over. and officially it doesn't exist, isn't happening, and is somehow my fault or my daughter's. sick system there. so incredibly glad to be out of it.
gardener--thank you again.

I will absolutely go back over that exercise tonight. you are absolutely and completely correct, and thank you so much for the reminder of what I should have already known!! the timing is good; with my first new paycheck comes more financial and material security than I've had in years. surely that will be a factor in convincing Hoosiergirlie that I can take care of things!

yep, the little bratty kid has her sticky fingers all over that steering wheel; I've moved forward tremendously over the past couple of months, but there's still work to be done, obviously. as I was reminded enthusiastically the other day, I'm right on the cusp of...something! lol. vague, but obvious, and I am so ready to take that next step for myself.

thank you again, gardener.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
the timing is good; with my first new paycheck comes more financial and material security than I've had in years. surely that will be a factor in convincing Hoosiergirlie that I can take care of things!
Good for you. God how that must ease your sitch. And feel just plain old good!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
as I was reminded enthusiastically the other day, I'm right on the cusp of...something!
You know, I feel that way, too lately. No evidence. Don't know why. I just do.
Hey, wait a minnit...could it be the return of long-lost...optimism?!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
the timing is good; with my first new paycheck comes more financial and material security than I've had in years. surely that will be a factor in convincing Hoosiergirlie that I can take care of things!
Good for you. God how that must ease your sitch. And feel just plain old good!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
as I was reminded enthusiastically the other day, I'm right on the cusp of...something!
You know, I feel that way, too lately. No evidence. Don't know why. I just do.
Hey, wait a minnit...could it be the return of long-lost...optimism?!

lol! optimism, sure. but I think after slogging thru all this stuff the way we have done it, we know ourselves pretty well. and I think there's a sense of something right around the corner that is pretty palpable at times. optimism + intuition + self-awareness. all of it is good stuff!

and when someone else acknowledges it, can also see it...well, just further validation of our own self-awareness. (and possibly some synchronicity.)
I thought about what you asked, regarding trust and choices. I felt that I answered that with the jealousy thing. Do I think anything is going on? Do I trust him? No, I don't really think anything is going on. Yes I feel as if I can trust him.

The issue I have is me. I look back and see that I am friends to one degree or another with almost everyone of my previous boyfriends. Some I have lost track of. However, if I can continue to have a good relationship with them then that must say something about my choices in the the people I have cared for. That they still care for me, speaks for itself as well. My ex, made these choices that led him away from what marriage means and what options were available to fix any issues that we had. HE made those choices, not I.

It has affected my self-esteem though. I thought I must somehow be lower than my H if he could so easily walk away from myself and our children. Looking back I don't think he was ever faithful to any girlfriend before me. So he may have been faithful while dating me(perhaps not)but he certainly hadn't been once we got married. So now I doubt myself more. Am I deserving of what this new relationship can bring or will I be so scared that I will end it before he hurts me. That my dear is where I am at. I have had time to ponder. I am worth it but I need to figure out how not to let myself go to dark thoughts.

I hope that answers your question better.

kat
I wasn't really questioning or challenging, more just clarifying what I meant. it's a good dialogue, and an interesting question, isn't it? worthwhile things to contemplate when we're putting ourselves back together and perhaps learning to love again. I appreciate your transparency...and you're far more willing to evaluate these things than most people.

being abandoned can't help but affect our self-esteem. especially the process that seems to happen with infidelity when they make it all our fault, and add insult to injury. if you figure out how to control those "dark thoughts," please be sure to share how you've done it!!

what I'm dealing with, I think, is someone as wounded as I am, but as committed to healing as I am, with a complicated family situation. there is incredible potential here, but I don't know when he will be ready for a "serious" relationship, for the possibility of moving forward and exploring the potential. and that I could live with, I think, but I am aware he is casually dating several people closer to home, and my fear is that he will let down those walls with someone else and I'll be left out in the cold. the only commitment we have to each other is in a very deep friendship (with benefits :-) ) that he says another woman will have to accept. but I doubt that it wouldn't be too threatening; we've known each other too long, we know each other too well, we've walked together thru the hell of divorce, and...well, there's that very good physical thing going on too--albeit rather infrequently due to the distance. however...my new income will allow me to travel some, and perhaps we could meet somewhere in-between...anyway, I so wish I could just relax and enjoy, but the better and deeper and sweeter it gets, the tighter I want to hang onto it.
so, Texas hottie prof was here again near the end of his visit "back home again in Indiana." and it was good. while I miss him--a lot--it was just a fun, relaxing, very comfortable time together. I feel as if I know him much better, we're more comfortable together, there's little awkwardness...and dammit, he just feels part of me at this point. I had sort of a stroke of genius; after dinner, I just drove around town for awhile, "sightseeing" but it gave him a very good opportunity to talk "like guys talk"--side by side, not face to face, and he opened up about many things. it was just a lovely time, so much so that I didn't have to feel worried or insecure about the future. and for me, that's saying something! no further pressure to date; there was a point where he talked about his own feeling pressured because of being the only man in my life with any intimacy at all...and that's kinda not true. physically, sure, but we got that out and got some light on it and I think some of the walls came down there. for me, the issue wasn't whether or not I should date (not currently going after it aggressively, but but that has less to do with him than my own adjusting to making myself happy and drama-free on my own). it was about his urgency to get the point across that I Gotta Do This--and it was his urgency, not mine. at this point it's kinda irrelevant, which feels healthy. in fact, everything about this feels healthy at this point, and normal. there's less intensity and we're just 2 people, not 2 broken and wounded individuals clinging to each other for dear life. kinda feels like we made it thru some bad stuff and while there's still healing to be done, we're just enjoying each other.

I miss him like crazy, and it will be a rough few days, but it will be okay.

HM,
Good for you. It all sounds good. Healthy. Honest. Fun. wink
Posted By: kml Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 06/02/10 01:50 AM
"he opened up about many things. it was just a lovely time, so much so that I didn't have to feel worried or insecure about the future. and for me, that's saying something! no further pressure to date; there was a point where he talked about his own feeling pressured because of being the only man in my life with any intimacy at all.."

Red flags!!! Red flags!!!

I'll admit I haven't been following along here, but when a guy is dating other women and tells you he feels pressured because you're not sleeping around too - he's a BAD BET!
(I know - recently been there, done that!)

Reread Why Men Love Bitches - seriously.

Ellie
Originally Posted By: Gardener
HM,
Good for you. It all sounds good. Healthy. Honest. Fun. wink

and that's how it feels.
Originally Posted By: kml
"he opened up about many things. it was just a lovely time, so much so that I didn't have to feel worried or insecure about the future. and for me, that's saying something! no further pressure to date; there was a point where he talked about his own feeling pressured because of being the only man in my life with any intimacy at all.."

Red flags!!! Red flags!!!

I'll admit I haven't been following along here, but when a guy is dating other women and tells you he feels pressured because you're not sleeping around too - he's a BAD BET!
(I know - recently been there, done that!)

Reread Why Men Love Bitches - seriously.

Ellie

I don't think he's sleeping around, and I don't think he's encouraging me to do so either; it's honestly more about socializing, getting out there, dinner-and-a-movie kind of stuff. really.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I don't think he's sleeping around, and I don't think he's encouraging me to do so either; it's honestly more about socializing, getting out there, dinner-and-a-movie kind of stuff. really.
Ellie offers good warnings.
But I believe you are centered, measured, and perceptive and purposefully slow in your movement here.
I trust your instincts.
thank you. believe me, I have been at the point when I thought exactly what Ellie was saying. however, with real conversation (and not my own projection), I see a real focus on "putting yourself out there" and not on self-medicating and running from feelings by distracting oneself. and it was very clear: go out, do fun things; not saying get married or sleep with people, just have fun and you'll learn about yourself.

and I -almost- trust my instincts too.
I think it's in the trying that teaches us. Are we ever completely done with ourselves? I doubt it. We need to be constantly readjusting, tweaking, nudging this little flaw, that small irritation, or increasing this good characteristic or expanding that brilliant part of us. It is a spiritual journey rather than a physical one we are told, and I think it is true. Once our youthful glow and energy is past, all we have is our character, our spirit, and that is where the true test begins, IMHO. We trust parts of ourselves, some of the time, and then there is a flash of inspiration and for a second we trust all of ourselves. Isn't the journey of Life just awesome?
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
I think it's in the trying that teaches us. Are we ever completely done with ourselves? I doubt it. We need to be constantly readjusting, tweaking, nudging this little flaw, that small irritation, or increasing this good characteristic or expanding that brilliant part of us. It is a spiritual journey rather than a physical one we are told, and I think it is true. Once our youthful glow and energy is past, all we have is our character, our spirit, and that is where the true test begins, IMHO. We trust parts of ourselves, some of the time, and then there is a flash of inspiration and for a second we trust all of ourselves. Isn't the journey of Life just awesome?

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! that is absolutely beautiful!!!!! thank you so much!
I have to toss in a quick update here.

last night was D14's 8th grade graduation, an event I have obsessively worried about and dreaded for months. and it went unbelievably well!

the only x-in-laws who attended were D14's grandparents. I decided I would just see how they handled it and respond appropriately--and I was immediately invited to sit there in the front pew with xH, new gf, and his parents. we definitely got some weird looks thruout, but it was far, far more comfortable than I would ever have anticipated. (this gf, btw, if you haven't been following along, is not the one involved in the breakup of the marriage; she is relatively new (3 months?) and D14 likes her a lot; she's very appropriate and a very good advocate for D14; we have met at a few different events and it's been fine.) after graduation was over, we were saying our goodbyes, and x-FIL hugged me and began sobbing. told me how much he missed me, how painful this was for him, how much he has cried over the past 2 years, how he can't believe what happened, how he's so sorry for my pain--and please come and visit anytime. at that point, of course, I was weeping openly as well.

I've had no contact with them since before the bomb over 2 years ago; they have gotten on my nerves for years. however, this was such a moment of grace and reconciliation, and such a powerful healing moment for me. this has been an overwhelming week--and in a very powerfully positive way. I am absolutely exhausted and honestly...I can hardly wait to see what happens next! as one wise canine-type poster phrased it for me, I'm moving from grace to grace right now.
HM,

That was so very... touching. Very. I am so glad to hear you get that much-deserved affirmation from your IL's. I know that must mean a tremendous amount to you!

Hugs and blessings.
I am absolutely getting whiplash; just got this from xH along with some tedious financial stuff:

"On a totally different note- last night was really special. D14 was “in her element” at dinner, there was some reconciliation (I hope), the video and the pictures you submitted were absolutely terrific! Wow, a very powerful video! D14 was in a LOT of the pictures. Great job, you are a great mom!"

I am afraid I'm going to wake up soon, that all of this grace and peace are an illusion....what on earth is going on here?!
perhaps you have moved from a place where it was easy to see the negatives into a place where you are filling it with positives

each situation could be taken in different ways

a resentful (not that you were...just using it as an example) could have seen the inlaws confession of how difficult it was as them trying to make themselves feel better after abandoning you

coming from a different place, the inviation to sit by them might have been seen as rubbing your face in the fact that you aren't a part of the family anymore

a different person may have seen the letter from the x as snarky like you did all the work and didn't let him be a part of it

when we are looking for blessings they can be found in abundance
when we are searching for slights, they surround us

way to bea ble to find all the blessings!!!!
perhaps you're right, fig. none of this seems conscious, but perhaps I have simply become accustomed to finding the blessings. but whatever it is, I am humbled and amazed by it all.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I am absolutely getting whiplash; just got this from xH along with some tedious financial stuff:

"On a totally different note- last night was really special. D14 was “in her element” at dinner, there was some reconciliation (I hope), the video and the pictures you submitted were absolutely terrific! Wow, a very powerful video! D14 was in a LOT of the pictures. Great job, you are a great mom!"

I am afraid I'm going to wake up soon, that all of this grace and peace are an illusion....what on earth is going on here?!




Sorry for the slow response, Hoozh -- I just fell off my chair, and pulled something. shocked smirk

WOW.

Puppy
I KNOW! wtf is going on here??!! just talked to xH about dropoff/pickup tonite, and he said he and D14 talked last night, and then said (and I'm paraphrasing a bit):"I'll tell you the same thing I told her. I've had my head up my *ss for the past 2 years, but it's out now and it's a new day." (this is as close to apology as the man can get.)

this is just downright disorienting!! all I can say is, if I hear of any trouble between him and the new gf, I might personally offer to fund their relationship counseling. is this one of those "beauty for ashes" things?

ok, so the classic "happily ever after" is supposed to include reconciliation. I mean, that's what this site is about, right? but honestly, I have it better than that; I learned who I am and I like myself for the first time in 20 years. I am no longer lost in a marriage that required my disappearance and drained any self-esteem I could scrape together. I have healed from the past 2 years of hell, from a marriage that didn't have a lot of potential, and I am the mother of a truly wonderful daughter. I have let the marriage, and xH, go on to whatever might serve him better. I have peace, D14 has peace, and co-parenting is peaceful. and maybe there will be romantic love in my life again in a much healthier form--and maybe not, but either way I have learned that I AM OKAY on my own, and I can be the biggest contributor to my own happiness. and honestly, it can't get much better than that.
I am still recovering from Puppy's fall! LOL Looking back a few months ago when I was really worried about you around Thanksgiving and here you are. What a difference!! I am so happy for you. Fnding your self can be awesome. I will be right back there too as soon as I see my dr tomorrow(a little thing about being a female has been messing with my emotions for a while now). Yippee!!

kat
BeingMe,
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
I think it's in the trying that teaches us. Are we ever completely done with ourselves? I doubt it. We need to be constantly readjusting, tweaking, nudging this little flaw, that small irritation, or increasing this good characteristic or expanding that brilliant part of us. It is a spiritual journey rather than a physical one we are told, and I think it is true. Once our youthful glow and energy is past, all we have is our character, our spirit, and that is where the true test begins, IMHO. We trust parts of ourselves, some of the time, and then there is a flash of inspiration and for a second we trust all of ourselves. Isn't the journey of Life just awesome?
One of those brilliant parts of you shines through in this beautiful post!
Thank you.
Originally Posted By: kat727
I am still recovering from Puppy's fall! LOL Looking back a few months ago when I was really worried about you around Thanksgiving and here you are. What a difference!! I am so happy for you. Fnding your self can be awesome. I will be right back there too as soon as I see my dr tomorrow(a little thing about being a female has been messing with my emotions for a while now). Yippee!!

kat

oh, yeah...Thanksgiving sucked. one of my lowest points. I learned a lot about my process, tho...I gotta wallow. I never get "dangerous" with myself, but I have to stay in the misery and wring every last little bit out of it until I'm absolutely sick of it. and then I'm done. and unfortunately, I don't think that probably comes across in my venting posts, but venting is part of moving thru it.
I hear you, I am wallowing in my own mess now. Get it all out and till there isn't another drop left. Well at least that is what I am trying.

kat
Wallowing can be a good thing ... just be in the moment of misery, working through it. Then it's done, and you're on the other side where the sun is shining.

I've wallowed in my M for 5 years now, and am thinking it's time to leave.
Originally Posted By: kat727
I hear you, I am wallowing in my own mess now. Get it all out and till there isn't another drop left. Well at least that is what I am trying.

kat

it works for me! not sure if it's like that for anyone else, but it's effective for me.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Wallowing can be a good thing ... just be in the moment of misery, working through it. Then it's done, and you're on the other side where the sun is shining.

I've wallowed in my M for 5 years now, and am thinking it's time to leave.

oh my! you have to say more...got your own thread at this point? not that I don't want you here, I just don't want to overlook anything....

are you okay?
Hi Hmama, I have had a thread for a long, long, time in Piecing, (check in my bio under "hey") but I have started one here on MLC, since that is where I was during the bad times then we "reconciled". I thought we were piecing our marriage, but i think he was just coasting until D17 graduates high school (this year) and now I wonder if he is waiting for my possible early demise. Horrible thing to say, but his brother is just going through a very expensive divorce, and maybe he doesn't want to spend all that money, even though (heaven knows) I deserve it after all the cr@p I've been through.

I am okay-ish. A little sad that I allowed it to come to a point where I feel I have wasted so much time. ugh!
those are horrible feelings to feel, BeingMe. if anyone knows how brief, unpredictable and precious life is, it's you...and feeling like someone you love and have shared your life with is just waiting for you to die is horrific.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I learned a lot about my process, tho...I gotta wallow. I never get "dangerous" with myself, but I have to stay in the misery and wring every last little bit out of it until I'm absolutely sick of it. and then I'm done.



Oh, I am AB-SO-LOOOOT-LY like this, Hoozhawhatchamacallit! Soooooo much like this too!

No wonder we get along so well. wink

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I learned a lot about my process, tho...I gotta wallow. I never get "dangerous" with myself, but I have to stay in the misery and wring every last little bit out of it until I'm absolutely sick of it. and then I'm done.



Oh, I am AB-SO-LOOOOT-LY like this, Hoozhawhatchamacallit! Soooooo much like this too!

No wonder we get along so well. wink

Puppy

lol pup!! there's some value in processing this way. and it drives those around us absolutely crazy!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...but honestly, I have it better than that; I learned who I am and I like myself for the first time in 20 years. I am no longer lost in a marriage that required my disappearance and drained any self-esteem I could scrape together. I have healed from the past 2 years of hell, from a marriage that didn't have a lot of potential, and I am the mother of a truly wonderful daughter. I have let the marriage, and xH, go on to whatever might serve him better. I have peace, D14 has peace, and co-parenting is peaceful. and maybe there will be romantic love in my life again in a much healthier form--and maybe not, but either way I have learned that I AM OKAY on my own, and I can be the biggest contributor to my own happiness. and honestly, it can't get much better than that.
Bravo!
BRAVO!
BRAVO!!
Excellent. I am so happy for - and proud of - you.
Where's the Standing Ovation emoticon thingy?
grin grin grin
thanks,gardener! yes, we do need that standing ovation thingy on occasion, don't we?!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Bravo!
BRAVO!
BRAVO!!
Excellent. I am so happy for - and proud of - you.
Where's the Standing Ovation emoticon thingy?
grin grin grin


I think it's over there, right next to the "smiley munching popcorn" emoticon that we ALSO don't have!!!

C'mon, mods, LEAP INTO THE 90s!!!

Puppy
"I'll tell you the same thing I told her. I've had my head up my *ss for the past 2 years, but it's out now and it's a new day."

Did Hell just freeze over?!

Talk is cheap. If he is sincere, he should apologize with MONEY.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Bravo!
BRAVO!
BRAVO!!
Excellent. I am so happy for - and proud of - you.
Where's the Standing Ovation emoticon thingy?
grin grin grin


I think it's over there, right next to the "smiley munching popcorn" emoticon that we ALSO don't have!!!

C'mon, mods, LEAP INTO THE 90s!!!

Puppy
mods? what are those??!!
Originally Posted By: Andabelle
"I'll tell you the same thing I told her. I've had my head up my *ss for the past 2 years, but it's out now and it's a new day."

Did Hell just freeze over?!

Talk is cheap. If he is sincere, he should apologize with MONEY.

lol!!! excellent!

actually, he has just also stopped quibbling over the division of expenses like tuition, and has moved from a demand for 50/50 to a much more appropriate 60/40.

Hell has indeed frozen over.
[sound of my mind blowing]
Originally Posted By: Andabelle
[sound of my mind blowing]
lol!!!

ok, here's the latest.

D14 and I went to an art fair on Saturday and ran into xH and gf there (relatively near her house). we were going to do the exchange after the art fair, so gf invited us to her house for a tour. and she had made me some challah bread. house was lovely--I could have decorated it myself. and the bread was yummy. she complimented my earrings...so I made her a pair.

how weird is that, that gf and I are exchanging little gifts?!

and update on Texas guy...he found me "beautifully stable", apologized for pushing the dating thing--acknowledged he was pushing his healing process onto me (or more accurately, "last year's me" who clearly has evolved into the "new and improved me"). and "You are truly an amazing person. And I'm loving what I'm seeing. In that weird, undefinable, odd sort of way we have.... LOL!"

lovely!

I keep wondering if I'm going to wake up and realize I was dreaming--or delusional!
No, I don't think so. I am happy for you. Sounds like healthy healing to me.

kat
This is the song I see fits you now. I feel this way most of the time myself, although I know there are difficult times ahead.

"Feeling Good" by Michael Buble

Birds flying high
You know how I feel
Sun in the sky
You know how I feel
Breeze driftin' on by
You know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

Fish in the sea
You know how I feel
River running free
You know how I feel
Blossom on a tree
You know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

Dragonfly out in the sun you know what I mean, don't you know
Butterflies all havin' fun you know what I mean
Sleep in peace when day is done
That's what I mean
And this old world is a new world
And a bold world
For me

Stars when you shine
You know how I feel
Scent of the pine
You know how I feel
Oh freedom is mine
And I know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me

And I'm feeling good
love it, love it!! nice jazzy-bluesy version of this song!
thanks, kat. it feels like that.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
how weird is that, that gf and I are exchanging little gifts?!
Wow. Weird is right.

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
and update on Texas guy...he found me "beautifully stable", apologized for pushing the dating thing--acknowledged he was pushing his healing process onto me (or more accurately, "last year's me" who clearly has evolved into the "new and improved me"). and "You are truly an amazing person. And I'm loving what I'm seeing. In that weird, undefinable, odd sort of way we have.... LOL!"
This is great.

the alien x has returned, at least for the moment.

he's been persistently bugging me for '09's mortgage statement so that he can claim half the property taxes and interest for the first half of the year, before he signed the quit-claim deed. seems he didn't withhold enough $$ and owes a lot of taxes (hmmm; this is what happens when you just don't feel like dealing with money, and no one magically steps in to take care of it for you!). the relevant facts: he paid none of the interest, taxes, or any other part of the mortgage payments during that time...or since August of '08, for that matter. he's not entitled to those deductions in any way. but I'm supposed to fix his tax situation. Ummmmmmm. . .nope, I don't think so! NOT MY PROBLEM!!!

how dumb does he think I am?!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...he paid none of the interest, taxes, or any other part of the mortgage payments during that time...or since August of '08, for that matter. he's not entitled to those deductions in any way. but I'm supposed to fix his tax situation. Ummmmmmm. . .nope, I don't think so! NOT MY PROBLEM!!!

how dumb does he think I am?!
I'm with you all the way on this! Been there. Recently.
yup. I could maybe possibly on a good day perhaps muster up a wee bit more sympathy if I didn't recall that the financial situation he left me in resulted in D and I having no heat for 6 weeks during the late winter/early spring of '09. oh...and he cashed the insurance checks meant for the dentist so D and I have not had any dental care for a couple of years because we owe too much there. oh, and let's see. . .mortgage has been in perpetual modification limbo for the past year-and-a-half because I missed a payment during a time period when I didn't get a paycheck (winter break from school).

and I'm supposed to feel sorry that he owes money for taxes...when I also owe?! I'm having difficulty summoning up any sympathy.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
and I'm supposed to feel sorry that he owes money for taxes...when I also owe?! I'm having difficulty summoning up any sympathy.
Sympathy, my a$$. I'm with you.
The man is insane. Or, I suspect, thinks the world revolves around him, and would expect help no matter how awful he treated you and D. Probably wonders what your problem is? I say, no statement, "you get nothing, are owed nothing, you are nothing except the father of D." Or, just ignore any request for it.

I just cannot believe this man!!!!
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
The man is insane. Or, I suspect, thinks the world revolves around him, and would expect help no matter how awful he treated you and D. Probably wonders what your problem is? I say, no statement, "you get nothing, are owed nothing, you are nothing except the father of D." Or, just ignore any request for it.

I just cannot believe this man!!!!
I kinda vote for both--he is insane because his reality is that the world revolves around him.
He was just being nice before because wanted something. *ss.

Glad to see him feeling some consequences finally.
yeah, I kinda came to that conclusion myself.
had a little potential health scare today. last week I started swelling--first my feet, then up to my knees, then my abdomen, then I was short of breath on exertion. got in to the doctor today after they called in an Rx for diuretics over the weekend (which helped a lot!) the PA was concerned I was starting some early congestive heart failure, so I got some labs drawn and resigned myself to waiting--and worrying--a few days for the result. Not 90 minutes later she called me with good news: no heart problems!! so we added some more meds to the mix and I recommitted myself to getting in better shape. what a considerate PA that was!! she took care of me last fall, also, when I got the flu which snowballed into asthma and pneumonia. so tonite I'm very happy to not have to deal with a major health problem!

I am a bit concerned, however, because I haven't heard a single word from Texas prof for 4 days now. and we usually toss notes back and forth at least daily, usually more than that. not so much worried about relationship stuff as I am just worried about him!
kind of a rough time today; things tend to cycle back through, don't they? D14's been at her dad's the past couple of nights, and her schedule is busy this week...running her around like crazy! and that's a good thing. but I'm lonely--just one of those times. I had a bit of a revelation: no matter how much postive movement forward we make in terms of being comfortable in our own skin, liking ourselves, growing thru the pain, and putting x's behind us in a good way, there's still a sting about being "discarded." and as little respect as I have for xH and as much as I've set myself on a healthier path than I could have been on with him...I was still thrown away with absolutely no regard by the man I loved, sacrificed for, had a child with, promised my life to. none of that was quite good enough. and there's still a part of me that wonders if I'll ever be good enough to be loved, and to be allowed to love back fully with all my heart.

what set this off? I had a class on our new phones (always something new) in a classroom right outside the door of the NICU where wiccawoman OW (now discarded herself...how ironic) works. and I walked thru the door of that hallway and felt a palpable discomfort; cold chills and the hair on the back of my neck standing up. not because I was anxious about running into her or something (we work in the same hospital)--but it was like an evil, unsettling presence there, and it occurred to me that in this hallway is where my life changed, where xH made decisions that destroyed our family, where conversations happened that ended my marriage. it was a little more real than I was comfortable with, and left me with an icky feeling.

g-man, looks like I'm gonna have to have a warm and fuzzy chat with the little one tonite and reassure her that a) that's over and done with, and b) I won't even have to go in that hallway again in the foreseeable future!
Glad you're okay!

Being in the bad voodoo place would make me feel icky, too.
hm,
I'm sorry you had a bad day Tuesday and that I missed this post Tuesday which was the last time I was on.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but I'm lonely...there's still a sting about being "discarded."...I was still thrown away with absolutely no regard by the man I loved, sacrificed for, had a child with, promised my life to.
All I can say is I understand. I don't know when the deep...trauma of being discarded finally goes away.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...and there's still a part of me that wonders if I'll ever be good enough to be loved, and to be allowed to love back fully with all my heart.
You are good enough. Period. And good enough to be loved. Sometimes we don't feel that way, but we know that we are.
I, too, wonder if I will ever be able to love fully, give myself fully again.

Hope you had a good chat and are better, more centered today.



thanks, y'all. I'm much better today, and even yesterday. just one of those nights, and it passed.

yeah, I can identify with what you expressed, gardener. what I want even more than to be loved, is to love fully and without reservation--just to say I've done it once in my life! but I'm afraid that in spite of wanting that, I'll always hold back out of fear. there was a book--"Love is Letting go of Fear" and the title has always stuck with me. I want that, I want to give that much...but this time, without losing myself in the process. I know there's a way to do that, and I hope that I've learned enough at this point in my life to find that balance.
Posted By: poet Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 06/17/10 05:51 PM
"but I'm lonely...there's still a sting about being "discarded."...I was still thrown away with absolutely no regard by the man I loved, sacrificed for, had a child with, promised my life to."

Hey Hooos,

You must know that feeling is not personal, that I often feel it too. But then, after a few prayers and convos with friends, we realize this is "just a feeling" and not "real" right??? We were all discarded, but the thing is...I don't really believe that "they" (our spouses) realize it; not to the extent that we realize those feelings. Not sure I'm making sense here, but trying...

What I'm trying to say is, I used to believe what H did to me was my problem, that I wasn't good enough. And in a sense, it is my problem. It was my problem. It isn't anymore, and here's why.

I can so vividly remember believing I was going to "die." Truly, I believed that. Now I know it was just a "feeling" and not real, just like I know that I AM good enough.

We (both you and me) married a man who was "broken" not able to fully love. I'm sorry, but in a sense, we both made wrong choices when we married them. We could've have had better, but we didn't "realize" it at the time.

Just know that, and you'll find true love. I'm sure of it.

((((hugs))))
love,
poet
oh, I definitely made a wrong choice when I married him. and it wasn't like I didn't have warning signs. and never thought I deserved to be treated better. there was my mistake. and it only got worse, as relationships tend to do after marriage...if your relationship has a fatal flaw, it grows.

however, my bottom line has become: I wouldn't have my daughter if I hadn't married him, and she is worth whatever I've had to put up with. just wish she didn't also have to put up with it!

as for true love, it is only after I stop seeking it that it will find me. still, we seem to have that compulsion, don't we?!
Quote:
.if your relationship has a fatal flaw, it grows.

Hmama, this is so true. I had never thought of it this way, and now I see it all. That is a very true and profound statement. And, so simple. Work on your problems prior to M ... if it don't get solved, don't get married.

Sometimes, though, we are unaware of issues, of the more serious baggage. My H hid his well. But, there always was that nagging thought that he was so unemotional, not much romance in our R. I bet your XH hid a lot.

Anyway, I am so over romance. Want no part of it. I have other things to occupy myself with. grin
yes...sometimes the fatal flaws are obvious, sometimes very hidden, and sometimes we simply plow thru telling ourselves it doesn't matter that our needs aren't getting met, that there's no potential for them to get met in that relationship....that was me. tried not to have any.

he hid a lot--and he was good at it. still is, in many ways--except I no longer need to live in denial as I did for so long. but there was plenty he didn't hide, and I accepted, and kept lowering my threshold. I asked nothing...and I got nothing. and then when big, undeniable things happened when you can't pretend you don't have needs, and I was completely alone to deal with them...well, what did I expect, really? I was the one who took care of him, not the other way around.

yeah, I'm not really big on romance either. but I would like to feel loved, cherished even, and to feel safe to give love in return. wish I was in my 30's, knowing what I know now.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...as for true love, it is only after I stop seeking it that it will find me.

I truly believe this, too.
ok, can someone translate this for me?

was jokingly apologizing to Texas prof for a brief barrage of emails (none of which was answered) over the past several days. got this response, to which my (internal) response can only be "wtf?"

"Everything is fine! I'm happy to get the notes so long as you are ok with me not responding to everything. I think that that's a way you not only stay connected, but stay healthy. Sort of a bibliotherapy. And I find many of your notes interesting even if I don't respond. Like your note last night.

So if you're ok with that, then we're ok. Deal?"
Hmm, sounds like he is trying to tell you to give him some space. Maybe he is just wanting to slow it down a bit?
any slower and it would not exist. not a good sign, I'm afraid.
Sorry hoosier. I would just stop writing to him and see what happens. That may get him wondering.
that's probably what needs to happen. so hard to believe that it was just a couple of weeks ago he was here and there was such a wonderful connection. this is the predictable pullback, I guess.
Yep, pullback. Was he put through the wringer in some kind of divorce or something? We all know how that feels!
how'd you guess?
If he is a "nice guy" type then chances are HE was dumped. I am the same type. This site has helped me tap into my assertive side though.

Post divorce I might say the same type of thing to a woman just so that I would not be the one to get dumped again. Oh wait, I did say that sort of thing to someone already!
ummmm...yeah, he was dumped. after 25 years; long and ugly story. he's a nice guy--but not so much the wimpy kind of nice guy, altho I think he's had time to come to terms with that over the past couple of years.

we do this dance; it's nothing new. and it's quite predictable, actually, after having such great conversations and...other activities while he was here. this has been going on almost a year and a half...and while we were both much too raw in the beginning, there is that buffer of 800 miles or so. but anyway, I know this pattern. hoped we'd gotten to a safe place, but I think it will be awhile--if ever--before he will be able to trust someone.
I had no idea that you and he have been a thing for that long! Do you guys ever talk about his divorce processing? Like, is he totaly healed and is he ready? Sure, that could scare him away but atleast you would get to the bottom of it.
Quote:
wish I was in my 30's, knowing what I know now.

Amen to that.
lol!--I don't know that we're really "a thing" even now! that's the confusing part. can you be a "thing" 800 miles apart...even on a good day?!

oh, gosh no. he's not healed...altho much further along than a year ago. same for me. and he's not ready. I know that. but there's clearly something happening here, and it's good, and when he is ready...well, there's likely to be someone around and not 800 miles away.
Hoozh,

You KNOW he pulls back. We've been over that, and it's PREDICTABLE. When you pursue with a "flurry of e-mails," you blow the "cool, collected, confident New Hoozh" persona to whom he's been so attracted recently.

Man, I go on vacation for ONE WEEK and you start pursuing??? Sheeesh. crazy wink

Puppy
roflmao!!! pup, you'd have to understand my week and you'd cut me a break!

actually, he called on the way back from a visit with his son today and it was quite a normal, pleasant conversation.

dang! you know me too well, pup!
guess I've been getting my retribution from xH for not going along with his tax thing. in the form of complete lack of flexibility in getting d14 to places she needs to go. overwhelming sense of entitlement and the bluster of a toddler in his communication; I get the sense I'm dealing with a child. it's as if he thinks he's hurting me in his actions...in actuality, he IS inconveniencing me greatly because he knows I'll do whatever it takes to get her to where she needs to be (choir rehearsals, auditions, prep for the tour which begins Thursday)...which I will, because she can't exactly drive herself. this is so asinine.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
lol!--I don't know that we're really "a thing" even now!
Do you want you two to be a "thing" at this point?
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but there's clearly something happening here, and it's good, and when he is ready...well, there's likely to be someone around and not 800 miles away.
If there's clearly something happening and it's good - and I believe you on both counts - then there is no need to pursue! C'mon, hm, break out DB 101.
Go a bit dark. Or Dim at least.
Let it be. And it will be what it is meant to be.
you're right, of course. the thing is, I don't even realize I'm pursuing until I look back and see the trail of emails I've left...without thinking.

do I want us to be a thing? yes. I do. I'm ready. I've known him for a long time--with a large gap there in the middle, but I know who he is. he's a good man, there's a lot of synchronicity. I don't have to know where it's going, I don't have to know THIS IS IT. I just want some possibility. it was there in the beginning, and I liked it, and then life happened and...it went into hiding. so. there it is.

I was never any good at db'ing...ask any of the old timers. xH left and never looked back, never waffled, never left the door open even a crack, so nothing I did in those early days had any effect at all. and after 7-8 months, I let go because it clearly wasn't moving. it wasn't MLC after all, it was an exit affair, he wanted out and wanted to be able to lay the blame on me. so...no db'ing had any effect at all. I'm as new to it as anyone else, really.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I was never any good at db'ing...ask any of the old timers. xH left and never looked back, never waffled, never left the door open even a crack, so nothing I did in those early days had any effect at all. and after 7-8 months, I let go because it clearly wasn't moving. it wasn't MLC after all, it was an exit affair, he wanted out and wanted to be able to lay the blame on me. so...no db'ing had any effect at all. I'm as new to it as anyone else, really.
I hear ya. My exact sane sitch/DBing experience. Except the affair part. She was already long gone. Period.
yeah, it feels like such insanity, doesn't it? and in my case, such a cliche--changed jobs/hospital systems and got a 35K raise, changed denominations, and left the marriage all in the space of 10 weeks. I supported him when he came out of the monastery, while he was in grad school and residency, and when...finally...our ship came in, he sailed without me because "he deserved better." I was a complete non-entity at that point. nothing I did was even going to get noticed, let alone any response.
Quite frankly and bluntly: a real pr!ck.
You deserve far better.
And you will get it.
"frank"ly, you're absolutely right! but believe it or not, yours (and mine) is a minority opinion.

I do deserve better. I just don't know that I'll get it. sometimes it just seems like far too much trouble for the payoff, kwim?
funny incident today that I'll share here.

xH and I work on the same large med center campus, are occasionally in each others' hospitals. I ran into him on campus this morning with my boss. he came up from behind in one of the overhead "gerbil tubes" and started talking in a flirtatious kinda tone, then did a double-take when he realized it was me! and then when I introduced my boss...he made nice then took off like he'd seen a ghost. interesting that he still finds me attractive enough to flirt with... by accident.

I'm still laughing at his response! hilarious.
That is too funny!!
I bet he felt like an idiot. HA!
What a hoot! It must indeed be nice to know you are attractive ... if he will flirt with you, then there must be scores of decent men out there willing to do so too. laugh
hm,
Great!
Just great.
you have to enjoy these moments when they happen!!!

the only men who flirt with me are online. occasionally.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
you have to enjoy these moments when they happen!!!

the only men who flirt with me are online. occasionally.
Hey, you...
Then you do the flirting! cool wink whistle
ohhhh--I've never been any good at that. never. not a natural talent.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
ohhhh--I've never been any good at that. never. not a natural talent.
Me neither. 180, my dear, 180! laugh
I'm also useless at flirting. I even bought a book about it, to see if I could learn. laugh
I kinda think that if you haven't learned by 30, it's unlikely to come off as natural!!
I don't know about that. I would have never considered myself a flirt but since being divorced at 44, I amazed at how much fun it is. Practice. smile
that will require some conscious effort. too many years of ministry making sure I DIDN'T come across as flirtatious!!
Practice makes perfect! Too many years of shyness for me makes it quite a challenge!
same here, I'm afraid.
me too
Painful moments in parenting...I believe I am now officially the mother of an adolescent. D14 came home from 5 days at Frank's, after her audition, with some fun stories about all they had done, and a request to spend more extended periods with her dad...and gf and her "new grandparents" (gf's parents, apparently very nice, very wealthy, very generous folks). We spent the evening getting things prepared for the Chicago trip, which begins early tomorrow morning, making some dinner, making banana bread, and trying to set up our new DVD player (the old one quit awhile back). Predictably, I couldn't get the thing working correctly; too many connections and plugs and cords and everything else (TV, cable box, CD player) is fine but can't get the discs to play on the TV. I finally gave up around 11 pm, went into the kitchen and accidentally knocked over a glass, and all hell broke loose. She started screaming at me; this has never happened before. Nothing works at our house, I don't have any friends I can call to come help us, we can't ever do anything because we don't have enough money, I need to stop being crazy (!?) and then--just hysterical crying but wouldn't tell me why. I ended up just going to bed and leaving her to cry it out while I did the same. This evening I'll come home, make dinner, take her to Bible Study, pack her up, and then send her off to Chicago in the morning. Not a lot of time there to try to iron this out, whatever it is.

I know this is probably just adolescent angst and probably overdue...but I feel like I'm losing her. I don't blame her for being frustrated about these things; I'm equally frustrated about the same things, about struggling for so long and having to say "no" too often. Things were supposed to be getting easier financially, but it's slow because I have to catch up in many areas...and things continue to break down, it's just the nature of home ownership. No doubt life with Dad looks pretty attractive right now, no doubt I look like the one with the chaotic life to her. I hate trying to "do it all" and coparent with someone with less maturity than our teenage daughter...but who has friends and support and family and...a life. Two years later I'm trying to put it all together and I'm not sure I'm doing such a great job of it. I keep thinking of all the opportunities she could have if we were still an intact family and I feel like such a failure.
hm,
I'm sorry you had such a bad night and are having a difficult time of things in general right now.

You are definitely an official mother of a full-blown adolescent now! shocked
Fourteen. My StepD - my first daughter - was fourteen when I married her mom. Yikes! Gardener had stepped into a scary teenaged-girl-world! shocked shocked shocked

She is conflicted, in pain and very confused.

And your night last night is so full of metaphors that one could stretch them forever:

She goes to a place where everything seems - to her, right now - perfect, intact, working, family-like, and full of abundance.

Comes home to things that don't work ("DVD"), things are not affordable right now, nothing seems intact - including family - and she feels the tension, the incongruity of the two situations.

Then something shattered, which is how she probably feels about everything right now.

All Hell understandably broke loose. All Hell has broken loose in her life and in her adolescent black-or-white thinking nothing is right in her life.

Teenage angst. Very real. Very scary. Very final. (remember? wink )

I don't know exactly how hysterical she was, but next time perhaps try hugging her. Tightly. Lovingly. Restrain and comfort her.
Cry with her, not separately. And don't let go until she - and you - calm down.

Tough time and stress all around. And for her, at a very tough age.

Give yourself a good day today.

See you on the .alt.
gardener...thank you.

can't get to the .alt from work....

so you think in metaphors too, eh? lol. altho I didn't see it at the time, yeah--you're absolutely right.

Odd...I usually would have held her. But I think I felt so broken myself that I was afraid I'd end up leaning on her and...I was angry, too. But you're right.

thank you.
I understand.
how's that survey coming along?!
Yep, definitely the teen thing. They feel that everything revolves around their needs and wants. Hate to hear the word "no". Been there done that, and the last one is 17 and almost done ... still the odd selfishness now and then, but otherwise quite calm. I am glad I stuck it out with my H these last five years, for no other reason, that there was another parent to help. They have no idea about the struggles of parenting, looking after a house, working, etc.

Please don't feel like a failure ... that title belongs to your XH, even if he thinks otherwise. I bet the "crazy" word came from him.

You're doing great, but teens can blow up one's worst days to mega proportions, when it is just a bad day.

Take care.
My D16 has lunch at my place daily and last week she phoned me to say "Could you please do the dishes daily" It has apparently never occured to her that SHE may actually be able to wash a few herself. It's occured to her now, believe me!
actually, she got the dvd player set up today, by herself.

ok, so she got to do it in the daylight!
Ugh, I am not looking forward to teenage years with my daughters! Sorry to hear about your night Hoosier. I have that same feeling of being out done by the ex and her family. All we can do is make the best of what we have! At least you did'nt lose your keys! smile
smile
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
I'm sorry you had such a bad night and are having a difficult time of things in general right now.

You are definitely an official mother of a full-blown adolescent now! shocked
Fourteen. My StepD - my first daughter - was fourteen when I married her mom. Yikes! Gardener had stepped into a scary teenaged-girl-world! shocked shocked shocked

She is conflicted, in pain and very confused.

And your night last night is so full of metaphors that one could stretch them forever:

She goes to a place where everything seems - to her, right now - perfect, intact, working, family-like, and full of abundance.

Comes home to things that don't work ("DVD"), things are not affordable right now, nothing seems intact - including family - and she feels the tension, the incongruity of the two situations.

Then something shattered, which is how she probably feels about everything right now.

All Hell understandably broke loose. All Hell has broken loose in her life and in her adolescent black-or-white thinking nothing is right in her life.

Teenage angst. Very real. Very scary. Very final. (remember? wink )

I don't know exactly how hysterical she was, but next time perhaps try hugging her. Tightly. Lovingly. Restrain and comfort her.
Cry with her, not separately. And don't let go until she - and you - calm down.

Tough time and stress all around. And for her, at a very tough age.

Give yourself a good day today.



whistle whistle whistle

As the father of two young women D23 and D21 (each, curiously, who used to be 14), that was a really beautiful and wise post, Gardener.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
I'm sorry you had such a bad night and are having a difficult time of things in general right now.

You are definitely an official mother of a full-blown adolescent now! shocked
Fourteen. My StepD - my first daughter - was fourteen when I married her mom. Yikes! Gardener had stepped into a scary teenaged-girl-world! shocked shocked shocked

She is conflicted, in pain and very confused.

And your night last night is so full of metaphors that one could stretch them forever:

She goes to a place where everything seems - to her, right now - perfect, intact, working, family-like, and full of abundance.

Comes home to things that don't work ("DVD"), things are not affordable right now, nothing seems intact - including family - and she feels the tension, the incongruity of the two situations.

Then something shattered, which is how she probably feels about everything right now.

All Hell understandably broke loose. All Hell has broken loose in her life and in her adolescent black-or-white thinking nothing is right in her life.

Teenage angst. Very real. Very scary. Very final. (remember? wink )

I don't know exactly how hysterical she was, but next time perhaps try hugging her. Tightly. Lovingly. Restrain and comfort her.
Cry with her, not separately. And don't let go until she - and you - calm down.

Tough time and stress all around. And for her, at a very tough age.

Give yourself a good day today.



whistle whistle whistle

As the father of two young women D23 and D21 (each, curiously, who used to be 14), that was a really beautiful and wise post, Gardener.

Puppy

it was a good one, wasn't it?!
Pup,
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
whistle whistle whistle
As the father of two young women D23 and D21 (each, curiously, who used to be 14), that was a really beautiful and wise post, Gardener.
Puppy
That was very kind of you to say. And it comes (as do so many posts on theses boards) at the end of a day in which I really needed to hear some kind words. crazy
next time lick her....
it shocks the bejeepers out of them and then smile and say
i love you

grin

my mom did it to me one time and I think my jaw is still somewhere on the floor

I was a raving lunatic about something or other and she grabbed my face, licked my cheek and said I love you and walked away

look at me, remember ing it even 24 years later

took the wind right out of those sails
now THAT is creative parenting!!!!

I love it!!!
...however, her parting shot that night was "stop being crazy and go to bed!"

if I licked her, I'm not sure that would send the right message....lol!!!!
Originally Posted By: figgeroni
next time lick her....
it shocks the bejeepers out of them and then smile and say
i love you

grin

my mom did it to me one time and I think my jaw is still somewhere on the floor

I was a raving lunatic about something or other and she grabbed my face, licked my cheek and said I love you and walked away

look at me, remember ing it even 24 years later

took the wind right out of those sails


LOVE IT!!!!!!!! grin

btw, the "hard hug" works on crazy spouses (and ex-spouses too, I suppose) as well!

Puppy
wow. yeah. would'a worked on me a few times, at least it would'a worked better than cornering me and screaming in my face.

I'm jus' sayin'. ugh...flashbacks.
Well, Hmama, licking her would've shown you were crazy in a nice way ... no biting. Maybe do a lick/hug combo? I think it would work on my kids, even the 30yo. They already think I'm nuts. grin
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
btw, the "hard hug" works on crazy spouses (and ex-spouses too, I suppose) as well! Puppy
And the hard hug -if over 20 seconds - is scientifically proven to be one of the ways to release oxytocin (the bonding hormone) into the bloodstream.
True.
ok, but can you cite your source?

ooops, sorry...too much research this week! excellent...now we know how it works. I like that.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
ok, but can you cite your source?
ooops, sorry...too much research this week! excellent...now we know how it works. I like that.
That was a good one.
Anyway, I've read it in many places.
Haven't had much of it released in my bloodstream for too damn long, though! frown wink grin
Sadly, Gardener, per the Merck Manual, "There is no recognized stimulus for oxytocin release in men, although men have extremely low levels."

you're not alone!
I just need to vent for a moment; I think I had too much time to think today and too little to distract me from where my head went. Do you all still struggle with what I'm struggling with this evening--that sense of being discarded and unworthy? That is perhaps all that remains of the broken heart and all the rest of the past couple of years' emotional work. and it seems really hard to shake. I can't say I miss xH, really; I'm not even sure if I miss being married, because it wasn't at all what I expected or wanted it to be in spite of trying really, really hard to make it so--it was just as lonely and isolating as if I was not part of a marriage. I suppose I miss my dreams, then, of what I thought marriage and family would be...and I feel like a failure, finding myself as isolated at 54 as I was at 24. There's something about being told all the things we were told in the end that tends to make one feel fundamentally flawed, lacking some key element, and certainly lacking good judgment. I'm tired, I suppose, of defining myself this way after all this time, of giving so much time to someone who someone who gave so little back and still I'm doing it by remaining stuck. I was doing well, I think, and this is probably just another plateau, but I'm so ready not to see myself as someone who got dumped and is still struggling to get some kind of life back. Do you ever feel that way? when do we get to feel whole again?

Please, please don't tell me I need to date or sign up for online services or all those things; there's nothing wrong with that, but it works differently for women, I think, and it holds no interest for me (nor am I afraid of it, tho!) it's would be, for me, like slapping a bandaid on a partially healed sucking chest wound or something. there are other ways of excavating some self-esteem and wholeness that don't involve needing someone else's affirmation--and I think it's important for me to go about it that way, because I've always been too approval-oriented and willing to settle for too little. what ways, specifically? I don't have a clue. but I know they're out there.

ok, sorry for the little foray into self-pity and all. it just struck me the other day that it's been two years--two years!--of living one breath at a time most of the time, and I thought I'd be further along than this by now. thanks for listening.
I think progress is different for each person. What will take one person to get over a betrayal several years, another will bounce back in months. So, don't be too hard on yourself. I know it feels awful to be thrust aside for another woman, especially after giving so much into the marriage. Some men are just like that, and there is little one can do about it. It probably had very little to do with what you did or didn't do. You are not a failure. But, I know the feelings are there and have to be dealt with. You're doing the right thing coming to vent here. You can also just take your mind off it by reading a book, going out with a friend, or whatever you're interested in.

Know that this too shall pass ... ya just have to give it the time.

Take care.
Quote:

Some men are just like that, and there is little one can do about it.


and women too...

Quote:

It probably had very little to do with what you did or didn't do. You are not a failure.


Exactly! well said...

and yes I feel that way too- there are moments when I crave attention from the opposite sex just to feel wanted. I don't know if you will ever feel 100% OK but 80% is good enough to start thinking about the future. The 20% will get down to 5% with the new life hopefully. We can't live in the past, we need to live for the future. Doesn't mean the future has to be with someone else if you don't want to. For me I'll do what I set out to do and that was to have a family, a partner in crime one I could trust and I won't let stbx destroy those dreams.
yep, Romeo, all I ever truly wanted out of life was to have a family; comes from old FOO issues, like everything else. and I don't think I will ever have that again at this point. and now my D14 is growing up much as I did, not really fitting in anywhere, her and I against the world, feeling disconnected. How ironic that the things we most want to stop passing along are the things that are almost inevitable.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Do you all still struggle with what I'm struggling with this evening--that sense of being discarded
Yes.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...and unworthy?
No. You are (I am) worthy. You are enough. And you matter. You were wronged; you are not wrong.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I can't say I miss xH, really; I'm not even sure if I miss being married, because it wasn't at all what I expected or wanted it to be in spite of trying really, really hard to make it so
Good. You're healing.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I suppose I miss my dreams, then, of what I thought marriage and family would be...
Now you're getting at/to that which you really, understandably mourn and grieve.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...and I feel like a failure
Stop. That. Now.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...finding myself as isolated at 54 as I was at 24. There's something about being told all the things we were told in the end that tends to make one feel fundamentally flawed...
And all of which was guilt-shifting, guilt-assuaging bullsh!t!!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but I'm so ready not to see myself as someone who got dumped and is still struggling to get some kind of life back. Do you ever feel that way? when do we get to feel whole again?
You didn't "get dumped." I didn't "get dumped." We were left by people who lost their way or who were never who they presented themselves to be. I get to feel whole again when I decide to feel whole again. I am enough. I matter. I was wronged and had sacred vows disregarded and spit in my face. And it was not about me. And it was not about you. It was - and is - and will remain - about them!.

Screw dating until you are ready - AND DON"T NEED IT .
Be You! Hoosiermama. Alone. Whole. Enough.
Pity parties are okay. As long as they are few, far between and short. I'm doing so much better, but I must admit that after almost two years, it still takes up a majority of my daily thinking. You and I will be further along when we are further along. Who puts a time-limit on healing?
Heal. In your time. As an unflawed, unlacking, eventually-fine-to-be-alone, whole person..
Just you. Alone. Fine.
It all (re)starts from there.
Time.
Your time, hm.
However much time you need.
Just don't wallow. Ditch the negative BS. Again: You were maliciously, selfishly wronged. You are not wrong. You are not the one who's malicious. You are not the one who is selfish.
Move forward.
Baby steps.
And celebrate each and every one of them.
You are inherently good and decent and lovable.
Period.
Quote:
and women too...

Indeed there are too. Just dealing with Hmama's X.

Hmama, for your X to have dumped someone as wonderful as you, just shows what an idiot he truly is. A blind one at that.
I am really humbled and rendered practically speechless by these responses. thank you for your time, thought, and caring.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Do you all still struggle with what I'm struggling with this evening--that sense of being discarded
Yes.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...and unworthy?
No. You are (I am) worthy. You are enough. And you matter. You were wronged; you are not wrong.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I can't say I miss xH, really; I'm not even sure if I miss being married, because it wasn't at all what I expected or wanted it to be in spite of trying really, really hard to make it so
Good. You're healing.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I suppose I miss my dreams, then, of what I thought marriage and family would be...
Now you're getting at/to that which you really, understandably mourn and grieve.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...and I feel like a failure
Stop. That. Now.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...finding myself as isolated at 54 as I was at 24. There's something about being told all the things we were told in the end that tends to make one feel fundamentally flawed...
And all of which was guilt-shifting, guilt-assuaging bullsh!t!!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
but I'm so ready not to see myself as someone who got dumped and is still struggling to get some kind of life back. Do you ever feel that way? when do we get to feel whole again?
You didn't "get dumped." I didn't "get dumped." We were left by people who lost their way or who were never who they presented themselves to be. I get to feel whole again when I decide to feel whole again. I am enough. I matter. I was wronged and had sacred vows disregarded and spit in my face. And it was not about me. And it was not about you. It was - and is - and will remain - about them!.

Screw dating until you are ready - AND DON"T NEED IT .
Be You! Hoosiermama. Alone. Whole. Enough.
Pity parties are okay. As long as they are few, far between and short. I'm doing so much better, but I must admit that after almost two years, it still takes up a majority of my daily thinking. You and I will be further along when we are further along. Who puts a time-limit on healing?
Heal. In your time. As an unflawed, unlacking, eventually-fine-to-be-alone, whole person..
Just you. Alone. Fine.
It all (re)starts from there.
Time.
Your time, hm.
However much time you need.
Just don't wallow. Ditch the negative BS. Again: You were maliciously, selfishly wronged. You are not wrong. You are not the one who's malicious. You are not the one who is selfish.
Move forward.
Baby steps.
And celebrate each and every one of them.
You are inherently good and decent and lovable.
Period.



whistle whistle whistle whistle


And yes, that is the highly-coveted "Puppy's 4 Whistles Award," which gets handed out, like, NEVER.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: BeingMe


Hmama, for your X to have dumped someone as wonderful as you, just shows what an idiot he truly is. A blind one at that.



I agree.


Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond
if you held it in your hand
The things you think are precious
I can't understand

-- Steely Dan
blush
awwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!
it is often when you feel most alone
that
you find you are surrounded by love

you are a wonderful and introspective person who only deserves the best

so

you are waiting for the best
wow...so much affirmation today. thank you all so much.

today was a much better day. I think I knew at the time that I was cycling back thru some grief...and I think I'm on the other side of that little bit.

btw...got this in a note from Texas guy earlier today (no, that's not why I feel better!):
"Interestingly, I think I feel closer and better about where "we" are than ever before. And I don't even know where "we" are! But I have felt great about talking with you, sharing more, and just being a bit more stable since our time together. I've not felt so pressured for or about anything. I feel a closeness and intimacy with you that is wonderful. I don't feel the pressure to create something romantic. I'm at the point right now where some kind of romantic commitment would make me run for the hills. I'm so much less needy now that I can enjoy being with people or I can enjoy being alone. I'm not so needy and am feeling so much better, and you've contributed to that. So perhaps the pulling back that you're feeling is just us establishing some sort of homeostasis without one or the other of us clinging on to the other like we're drowning?
Anyway, you know you can always tell me what you're thinking. You have blessed me more than I have words to express."

that was good to hear. I've been well aware he doesn't feel ready for "something romantic." not with me, not with anyone just yet. that's fine. he's not running from feeling close--and that's a big step.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond
if you held it in your hand
The things you think are precious
I can't understand
-- Steely Dan


Yes.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
"Interestingly, I think I feel closer and better about where "we" are than ever before. And I don't even know where "we" are! But I have felt great about talking with you, sharing more, and just being a bit more stable since our time together. I've not felt so pressured for or about anything. I feel a closeness and intimacy with you that is wonderful. I don't feel the pressure to create something romantic. I'm at the point right now where some kind of romantic commitment would make me run for the hills. I'm so much less needy now that I can enjoy being with people or I can enjoy being alone. I'm not so needy and am feeling so much better, and you've contributed to that. So perhaps the pulling back that you're feeling is just us establishing some sort of homeostasis without one or the other of us clinging on to the other like we're drowning?
Anyway, you know you can always tell me what you're thinking. You have blessed me more than I have words to express."
You've potentailly something wonderful, here.
No matter what form it takes.

I read "healthy"into all of it.

Peace,
thank you, gardener.

so I'm focusing intentionally again on healing, and reading some Schnarch and some Bowen. Working on differentiation--which I started my marriage out with, but at some point (perhaps losing babies, motherhood, other big changes) I lost it, and lost myself.

the hardest part of differentiation for me--based on FOO issues, of course--is remaining non-reactive in the face of anger or agitated anxiety from someone I'm close to. I can do it all day long pastorally; I had that "non-anxious presence" thing down. But then there was no risk to me involved. as long as I am mired in abandonment stuff and insecurity (and perhaps a bit of PTSD, altho that's fading greatly), I still have work to do. I think I've looked at that as just intrinsically "me," and it's possible that it is...but if I ever hope to get unstuck, I need to deal with it. anger and agitated anxiety feel like potential abandonment (or worse, a warning of physical violence), and I cringe and don't respond well. and xH knew that, had a big ol' Italian temper, and used it to his advantage, sometimes backing me into a corner and getting in my face (which always shut me down or left me shaking).

so--any wisdom on working with this particular demon?
^
D14 was telling me last night about the dinner with her aunt, uncles, cousins, and grandparents--the one where the new gf met the whole family. lots of anxiety in the "family system" with xH and gf and D14 heading into it earlier this week; I watched xH deal with his brothers (and overtly seek their approval) for 15+ years. D14 said that gf was a real hit with the brothers and their wives--they liked her a lot. however, she didn't seem to like them and there was much discussion on the way home about how they are essentially verbally abusive to xH in the guise of teasing (youngest son, enmeshed family, yada yada).

so, my point is that it stung some to hear all of this; I still miss my nieces and nephews and feel discarded by the whole family (minus his parents, who have come around unexpectedly over the past month or so). How do you share your lives for 15 years, act as godparents for each others' children, and then just cut someone off like that? while I wonder what he told them, I know that if it was me I would have at least reached out with a note or something no matter what xH said, especially once he showed up with the weirdo OW (the previous gf). I suppose they're rather relieved that he's with the current one, as she's much more "normal," but I still recall his oldest brother whispering in my ear right after our wedding, "welcome, sister."

well, this too shall pass; interesting that it's taking me longer to grieve the loss of extended family than it has to grieve xH and our marriage.
You know Hooooozh, I STILL wonder what he told all of them . . .

Pup
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
You know Hooooozh, I STILL wonder what he told all of them . . .

Pup

me too. . . .
You can be sure it was nothing favorable to you, HM. I seriously doubt if it was neutral or even-handed, but even if it were, the in-laws are more likely to side with him and distance themselves anyway, blood being thicker than water. They're stuck with your ex no matter what; not so a former spouse.

And despite however many years and however close the R might have been, in most former in-laws' eyes that's about all we amount to in the end: just the former spouse. Persona Non Grata.

Kind of makes the circle of betrayal seem all the more complete, don't it?

But it's a sign of the times, the diminishment in status we once gave Honor, Integrity, Loyalty and (most of all) Family. Can't blame the ignorant, cowards that they are, for going along with the crowd. Pitiful lemmings running off the cliff and all the while never understanding why the earth has disappeared from beneath their very feet.

HM, it's their loss. Believe me. While they have appeased the folly of their brother, it has come with a price: They have diminished their own family. It's sad they may never understand the error. They are missing out on knowing and enjoying the company of a very special person, and the mother of their niece. A lady who graces us here in these forums and for which we are all the more blessed.
What NCB says. Definitely they lost out, but more importantly, D14 lost out having both parents involved with the family. By ditching you, they essentially cut off part of who she is. They didn't have to go this route. There was no drama in the D, so I don't know what their problem was unless he told them something really bad, but then they should at least give you the benefit of defending yourself.

But, blood is thicker ....
thank you, NCB and BeingMe. those are nice sentiments, and I appreciate the affirmation.

I generally have made progress in dealing with this, it's just that D14 telling me about the dinner brought it back up again for me. D14 feels like the "black sheep of the family" as she says, because the others (except for grandparents) are really quite wealthy and consequently have significantly different interests (and values). I'm sure it doesn't help that I'm not around now. and since I have no family, it doesn't get balanced out for her at all.

I truly hate that she seems to be growing up just as isolated as I was. and I feel pretty helpless to change that right now.
I'm beginning to feel as if D14 and I are cursed in some way. She cannot seem to catch a break. this time: she got her annual letter from the children's choir, which she's been in for the past 4 years. it's one of the best in the world, and we've been blessed to be part of it; this will be her last year because of her age. and she did not advance choirs for next year--she's repeating the same one. (this is much like not passing a grade in school.) she didn't pass her written test (she has a math LD, and it affects much about reading music--but she sings and plays by ear). and her audition didn't go all that great. the worst part is that all the other kids from her school who were in her choir advanced...and they're all a year younger than she is. of course, they all have pianos and parents who can afford lessons, they haven't been harassed by the school music teacher and intentionally excluded from school music activities like D14 has been, their lives haven't been blown out of the water for the past couple of years either.

she's devastated. so am I. I don't seem to be able to dig out of this hole I've been in and make my daughter's life more normal. She's isolated--no one ever calls or texts or even answers her fb posts. she has no friends. she's a really nice kid, very intuitive, she sings well, she's very compassionate, and she's very bright (in spite of the LD). her life has been miserable the past two years because of her father leaving and trying to force a relationship with OW, because of being bullied in school by classmates and the music teacher, and she's gone from being an honor student to failing math. thank God she begins a new school next year, and one well-known for achieving success working with LD's. she really needs a break, tho, and my heart is breaking for her.
Mine is too.

frown frown frown

I'm so sorry, Hoozh. I will pray for her extra hard.

Puppy
Hoosh...I haven't been posting in months, but I wanted to check in on you and was so sad to hear your heart breaking in your post about your D. It hurts to read because my son had some extreme challenges as a child with bullies, not having any true friends (only a few neighborhood kids who mostly took advantage of him), and really struggling in school. This was his reality from K through 12. All the kids saw him as "weird" and teased, bullied or worse, ignored him. He rarely had bday parties with friends or sleep-overs (maybe one every two years). He used to love the movie Stand by Me, about the four thirteen year old boys and their bond and their adventure story...and it would break my heart to see him watching it over and over because I knew what it really meant...he was wishing he had that type of experience...even with just ONE friend...but there weren't any.

So I had to be his best friend, even knowing that it is just going to make matters worse for him to be a momma's boy...but what else could I do? So we were always extremely close, had fun and laughs and I always kept his spirits high...but I actually yearned and prayed for him to just have true friends like he needed.

But that never happened for him as a child, and he grew up thinking there must be something so extremely wrong with him for him not to be able to make true friends and keep them. It really affected him, as you can imagine. His father also emotionally abandoned him during our divorce, when he was 14 years old, so obviously that didn't help matters much.

For the life of me I could never figure out why there were no friends for him, as he is a very sweet person and is very deserving of friends. Why did this happen to him?? (We moms can agonize over our babies' struggles so stoically).

Anyway, the reason I have to share this with you, although it probably won't help right now, is because NOW my son is 22 years old....and WOW, DOES HE HAVE FRIENDS?!? He sure the heck does! And they are real, true friends. They truly love him and want his companionship. And they are GOOD kids and nice people (not users, posers, or jerks). He has at least 50 acquaintances that are close enough to go out and hang out with, attend their get-togethers, go camping or hiking or dancing with...and another 20 or so actual close friends. (This doesn't count the 100's of FB friends). He has many girls trying to date him, as well, and lives with a young guy roommate and they are having the time of their young batchelor lives.

We have talked now several times about his feelings about his friends or lack of friends...starting when he was very young, and all the way through school, and now during his young adulthood. He can express how frustrating and sad it was for him back then, and can reflect upon how grateful and happy he is now. He is especially grateful that he didn't become bitter or mean in response to how the world treated him back then...but instead, he just had to have faith that he was worthy of friendship until he grew in maturity enough to really understand how to be a good friend and how to be confident in meeting people and in relationships. He can see how unfair it was to him during his childhood and it still hurts him, but he has overcome any lifelong self-esteem issues that may have come from it, and now he just feels happy and headed toward a lifetime full of friendship and companionship.

Hoosh...Try very hard to take heart in your D's potential future, even given all of the challenges she is going through. This is not to downplay the very real affects they have on her now and will have on her forever...but she has her own future destiny which may be totally different than her childhood. She may not end up feeling isolated and sad forever. She may just turn it all around and become "herself" in a way that leaves all of that far behind. I am amazed to find out who my son really is, his real self that has been created through struggle and sadness...he rocks! And he is nothing like the sad, depressed young person I had very much expected him to become, based on the evidence of his childhood.

YOU and your love for her are the only things she can always and forever count on, so you know she has at least ONE THING that will be her platform to rise from. A platform that will always be there is the only thing I could give mine, too, and it was apparently enough.

I only share this story as a glimmer of hope, as I have so been where you are emotionally with regard to my fears and worries for my son...and I know there is nothing to take away the reality of her present circumstances (and yours). Yes, it may hurt like this for some time to come...but your prayers for her to overcome it WILL COME TRUE. Just believe in them and never let it go...even if all evidence gets you down in the meantime, the future can be different.

You've come so far. She has had a difficult path thrown in front of her feet. You and she still have a lot of your book of life left to write. Keep focused on a happy ending! Keep remembering that not only can every change for the worse (as it already has for you for the past couple of years)...but things can also suddenly change for the better (as you are just now beginning to see in your own life with the new job, the in-laws reaching out to you again, etc). THINGS CAN CHANGE FOR THE BETTER!! Keep that in your heart as tight as possible. You're such a sweetheart, I just know it is all going to come full circle.

DQ
I'm thinking of you and your daughter, Hmama! Take heart that things will change eventually. Life is never a level playing field, and sometimes we spend a lot of time in the valley rather than the mountain tops, or even on the mountainside. She is lucky that she also has family, even if not from you, at least from your XH. And, she has a loving mom ... worth more than all the wealth of her aunts and uncles.
DQ,

That was a beautiful post.

As a kid, I was never either the "popular guy" nor the guy with NO friends; I was more like Kevin in The Wonder Years, with a couple of close, GOOD friends, smallish, bookish, funny, "cute" (god, how teen and pre-teen guys hate that word!), with a couple of friends from the "jock" crowd and one or two from the "geek" crowd.

In middle school, I was picked on unmercifully (I've never even told my own family this), and never stood up for myself. It was a horrible experience.

Thru it all, I always had GIRLfriends, but never really good male friendships, including the first couple years of high school. That all suddenly changed for me when I, basically, "broke up with" a guy who was my best friend, who was HIGH-MAINTENANCE and I just finally grew tired of kissing his ass all of the time, and decided "Having a friend shouldn't be this difficult."

After that, I seemingly met kids easily, and I had a small core of VERY good friends, and we were part of a larger circle of 30-40 kids, male and female, who all used to do stuff together. The last half of high school -- and into college and adulthood and before my marriage -- was a GREAT, happy time for me, that was full of many friendships and romantic relationships with some great (and great-LOOKING!) girls.

Not sure why I even wrote all of that, Hoozh, other than to say I can relate to C somewhat, and can relate to what DQ is saying about how quickly it can change for a kid. I think it's harder for a girl, and other girls can be SO cruel. To this day, neither of my daughters (now 23 and 21) have many female friends, and it makes me sad. I have prayed and prayed and prayed for God to send a good one or two across their paths, and I"m still believing for that.

Puppy
I was a bit like Puppy, with a little more dash of nerdness. I had no problem being alone though ... I would practice my netball throws, and sometimes my friends would just watch me, or read a book, or I would read a book on the field and would get annoyed when disturbed. I took jiu-jitsu, and apparently (I heard much later) a lot of people were a little nervous of me, especially since I never backed down from bullying, words or physical, and most didn't know how much pain I could inflict. Hahaha! A lot ... I grew up with a very competitive brother, and we used to wrestle, etc. I was a tomboy that liked pretty clothes too, and reading sci-fi when it wasn't popular, yadda yadda. But, we also changed schools a lot --- dad was on the railways. So one gets to know how to make do, and get on with people. Maybe that's Clare's issue ... not enough moving around, so she is too used to being in the same place and it hurts more when previous friends are hurtful, or teachers she's known a long time suddenly change. Not that you could ever know what is the best thing for a child's nature.

My youngest is best being in the same school whereas the twins didn't care one way or another. My eldest was an only child for 7 years, and I never really knew what was best for her. She was often bullied, but she was such a softy, that she couldn't harden herself to fight back (and I don't mean physically), but she didn't want to say mean things to the school kids. (I had no problem when I was younger.) No matter what I did, it seemed it wasn't good enough, but now in retrospect, nothing she experienced was that bad. She had friends, albeit sometimes in other schools. She never went without ... clothes on her back, food on the table, her own bedroom, pocket money, etc. It was harder after the twins arrived, but she always had what was needed, and especially my love, and her step-dad's love and support.

All you can do is your best and you're doing an awesome job. Once Clare grows up, she will look back and see that things weren't so bad, and that which was, perhaps made her stronger. I think she's going to be a really lovely lady one day.

Take care.
Thank you all for the support. D14 is no longer all that upset about the choir thing because she really likes this director (who is an absolutely wonderful teacher, and always very positive and upbeat), a boy she likes will be in this choir in the upcoming year (ugh) and she has the opportunity to tutor individually with the choir director in hopes of retesting successfully and then moving up when/if there's an opening. So maybe it's more my problem than hers...altho I just have a sense that she just doesn't have many expectations for herself at this point.

We had a good weekend together--got a spontaneous invitation to a free concert on the lawn of the downtown state park here, which was fun for both of us. It was nice to spend time with another mom--I really miss that. and the girls had a great time together. D14 and I also went to a Farmer's Market (it's more of a big community party, really) and before she came home from her dad's I went to the opening of a new shop in our little struggling neighborhood followed by lunch with some friends--3 other moms. That was very nice, but I burst into tears talking about D14 and the choir issue. They all know D14 and their kids have made them aware of the bullying issues, and they were all quite supportive, so that was great.

I felt, however, like I was dragging myself through the weekend, and I still feel like such a failure as a mom. This is just so different from how I had planned to raise my daughter, and I see such a change in her from before her father left. I wonder how different her life might be now if we were still together and her life was more predictable. I think I'm doing the best I can, but everything is such a struggle...and what if it's not good enough?
DQ, thank you so much for your long and thoughtful post. I had no idea you followed my sitch! It does make me hopeful; I see so much potential in my daughter if only she didn't have such an uphill battle right now.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
"Interestingly, I think I feel closer and better about where "we" are than ever before. And I don't even know where "we" are! But I have felt great about talking with you, sharing more, and just being a bit more stable since our time together. I've not felt so pressured for or about anything. I feel a closeness and intimacy with you that is wonderful. I don't feel the pressure to create something romantic. I'm at the point right now where some kind of romantic commitment would make me run for the hills. I'm so much less needy now that I can enjoy being with people or I can enjoy being alone. I'm not so needy and am feeling so much better, and you've contributed to that. So perhaps the pulling back that you're feeling is just us establishing some sort of homeostasis without one or the other of us clinging on to the other like we're drowning?
Anyway, you know you can always tell me what you're thinking. You have blessed me more than I have words to express."
You've potentailly something wonderful, here.
No matter what form it takes.

I read "healthy"into all of it.

Peace,

ah...but why have I only heard from him once since then...an interesting description of his recent success in rock-climbing?! what's up with that?!
Men -- braggarts!!!! crazy
Hmama, I luvya, you know that, don't you?! So, take this 2x4 as a gentle knock ....

You are still doing the "but" thing. For instance, "yes, this is good, but .....". You fill in the blank. You cannot control anyone, or any situation, only attempt to influence. You control you. Whether he has contacted you once or ten times since, doesn't matter; he still sent that lovely email. Don't question, just allow the good things to happen, and don't seek out the negatives.

And, dammit, you are a good mom. You are there for your daughter, no matter what. You can just feel it through your writing, so stop doubting yourself. Nothing works out exactly as we plan them. Believe me, I know how plans can change (my whole life is a plan change). When it does work out, then it's fantastic, but if not, then one has to just find the positives in that change (not immediately, but eventually one has to do so before going crazy).

You and your daughter had a great weekend ... don't downplay it. Maybe you weren't feeling it, but it seems as if she did. Put that in the new family memory bank of "remember when we ....".

Take care.
thanks, pup (!) and BeingMe. You're right--on all counts (especially men being braggarts!!)

I hate to "but" this...but how it feels is this: "here's a nice lady I see once a year. we have a great time, we converse at a deep level, we have a lot in common including how we see life. but I don't really have the time or interest to make this any more than an annual visit...but I don't want to say it because I don't want to sound unkind. so I'll check in every now and then and say something I know she wants to hear to maintain interest and not seem like a cad."

he may feel more connected, but I feel more disconnected now than I can remember feeling so far. and it's kind of a double-bind situation, because addressing it pushes him away.

re: planning one's life--it DOES seem like a lot of people DO have a plan, and it pretty much works out generally the way they had in mind, altho the details may be different. (or maybe that's just Republicans?! ;-) ) And I thought I was doing everything right, and boom!--what happens to most of us on these boards, the bomb from outta nowhere.

I should probably just focus on getting my life together, and being the best mom I can be, and let the whole Texas thing go...but I have very little support, and he has been very supportive over the past year and a half or so. It just feels like more than a friendship to me.
HM...
I thought you said you didn't have a very good support system...here you got an invitation to go to a concert in the park with a mom AND you have lunch with 3 other moms who know your whole situation...all in one weekend???

sounds kind of supportive to me


and

you are a mom
we eat the guilt of not being good enough everyday
you have a point, figgie. those events are somewhat rare...can't remember the last time I had lunch with someone(s). I guess I meant I don't have anyone to call if I just need to talk, or someone to call in a crisis.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I guess I meant I don't have anyone to call if I just need to talk, or someone to call in a crisis.
Yes, you do. Especially in a crisis.
You and I both do.
indeed.
bit of an update--
it's been a very discouraging summer. I had really anticipated that things would be much easier financially with the new job, but so many things have broken down that I'm not seeing much of a difference yet. right now my dryer hasn't worked since February or March, I had to buy 3 new tires a week ago because my alignment is off (so I need to align my wheels), I need an oil change and new serpentine belt, my hot water pressure is very low, and my riding mower isn't working. my yard is literally the size of a football field, and I've tried to push-mow, but I can't take the heat. and my computer broke down--still trying to figure out what's wrong with it, hopefully not the motherboard. so I can't seem to get one thing fixed before a few more break down--it's very discouraging. and D14 starts high school in just a few weeks, so lots of expenses coming up there as well.

I'm getting mixed vibes at work--lots of stress there because of several administrative changes, and depending upon the day, my boss can be either patient and instructive or quite clear that I'm not proving to be a good fit. it has not been fun or enjoyable in any way and it would not surprise me at any point if I got called in and terminated. I've never been in this situation before--I've always, always walked in and picked things up well, but I don't even know what questions to ask here and it seems like I'm supposed to read minds--and I've always been bad at that! I was told on the first day that it would be 6-8 months before I knew what I was doing, and it's been about 2 1/2--so this is not unexpected!

Odd--when so much has been out of my control for the past couple of years, I've kinda gotten used to not even trying to control anything. This will work itself out, and I'll survive, and I'll somehow deal with all the consequences. But I am a bit tired of holding my breath.

and my Texas friend...who knows what's going on with him. in spite of the note earlier in the month about feeling close and comfortable, I hear from him a lot less often, and in briefer notes for the most part. maybe it's because he feels close and doesn't need more frequent contact...but I think I do, because I feel pretty distant.

not a very positive update, but there it is. I'm tired.
HM, sorry to hear about all the stuff breaking and the atmosphere at work. It sucks.

- Dryer: check CraigsList to see if you can buy a cheap one. I once got one for $25 because the owners were moving out that weekend and couldn't take it with them.

- Alignment: definitely get it done if you just put on new tires. However, a lot of people think alignment is needed everytime the tires are replaced- not true. Balancing yes, alignment no. So if your car needs alignment- because it wore out the tires then get it done. Should be about $80 or so for all 4 wheels (look for coupons).

- Oil change: 5k miles between oil changes is fine (as long as the car's not using it up and getting low- but that's easy to check)

- Serpentine belt: If it's cracked and frayed then yes get it changed because it can leave you stranded. Should be about $30 for the belt and depending on the car about half hour labor give or take.

- Hot water pressure: do you have a home warranty perhaps? you can have it looked at and get it replaced.

- Riding mower: maybe you can borrow from one of neighbors temporarily?

Perhaps a good handyman can take care of most of these things for a reasonable amount so you're not stressed out about them. They're all fixable things so stay focused on work and more important things in life. ((hugs))
Thanks, Romes.

the dryer is either a slipped or broken belt. my cousin might be able to fix that for me if I can pin him down. same with the mower. the neighbors actually said they'd have their son mow my lawn, but that was 3 weeks ago and it hasn't happened. I tried push mowing, but the heat made me sick, literally, and I was reminded I'm no longer in my 30's as much as I hate to admit it! tires--yeah, my tires went bad because of the alignment, so they need it.

no home warranty, I'm afraid. again, hoping my handy cousin might be able to look at it. serpentine belt--had one replaced back in the spring, it cost about $100 with labor.

work--lots going on that isn't related to me, and I'm assuming the boss is stressed out about them at times. still, not a lot of fun.
Could be a broken buckle on the belt, Hoozh. Or maybe the framister or the hongkongitron is shot. Or a bent brim on the distributor cap. crazy

WTH do I know; I am sooooooooooo not handy!

Wow, 16,999 posts. Guess I'd better write something a LOT more poignant and insightful on the NEXT one!!

Puppy
holy crap, pup! I'll go home and check those things out right away!!!!

how many keyboards have you worn out now??!!
Can't comment about the broken stuff, but I would suggest you move on from Texas guy, if he's not helping you emotionally. So much more fish in the Indie sea, I bet.
Posted By: kml Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 07/27/10 11:05 PM
First - why isn't your 14 year old daughter mowing the lawn with the push mower??????? Didn't we ALL do that when we were young? I certainly did.

Second:
Quote:
I hate to "but" this...but how it feels is this: "here's a nice lady I see once a year. we have a great time, we converse at a deep level, we have a lot in common including how we see life. but I don't really have the time or interest to make this any more than an annual visit...but I don't want to say it because I don't want to sound unkind. so I'll check in every now and then and say something I know she wants to hear to maintain interest and not seem like a cad."


You need to get the movie "He's Just Not That Into You" and watch it. Several times. I'm thinking of buying it and watching it weekly myself, lol. I think you assessed the situation perfectly and need to move on - while you're at it, look for a guy with boatloads of money (or at least a great pension!).

As for the suggestion about looking for a dryer on Craigslist - great idea. Lots of times people move and need a different dryer in their new place - gas or electric. So you might pick up a deal. I once bought a used washing machine from a guy who advertised in the Pennysaver (yes, this was in those dark primitive times before the internet). He made a business out of fixing up old appliances and reselling them. He took our old washer, installed the new one, and it cost us half as much as a new one. WE used it for about 14 years, with a family of five - once my husband replaced a belt. It was still running when we left it for the new owner of that house when we sold it.

You've gotten hit with a boatload of unexpected expenses at once. BUT - you do need a budget that accounts for these things, because they DO happen (just usually spread out a little more). You might take a look at your budget and make sure there is an amount set aside every month for these kinds of things. You might need to lower your expenses or raise your income in order to accomplish this.

(I always wonder on these boards why more people don't rent out rooms in their houses? Yes, roommates can be a pain, but what easier way to make several hundred extra dollars a month?)

Ellie
"You need to get the movie "He's Just Not That Into You" and watch it. Several times. I'm thinking of buying it and watching it weekly myself, lol. I think you assessed the situation perfectly and need to move on."
I know.

(((hm))) tonight.
thanks, gardener.
I just got a NICE dryer on CraigsList for $60! It's a Maytag Neptune, about 7 or 8 years old, and practically the same model (actually IS the same model, only one year either newer or older ,not sure which) of the one I had that went out on me.

So not only did a get a great deal, I figured I could just keep my old one, for a built-in supply of SPARE PARTS!!! A benefit that I used IMMEDIATELY, when I noticed one of the main knobs was cracked, and mine fit it perfectly. grin

LOVE CraigsList. I do, however, need to get something bigger than an old Acura sports sedan with which to cart the stuff, cuz giving a guy $20 for delivery is cutting into my deals!

Puppy
If you haul stuff from CL or Home Depot etc on a regular basis just buy an old Ford Ranger on Craiglist for less than $800. Or any pickup truck for that matter.

Keep the Acura CL/TSX for daily driving.
Posted By: kml Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 07/30/10 12:02 AM
Yeah Craigslist!!!!

That's how I found my Adult Rock Band class, on Craigslist.

Can't wait until I buy a house of my own so I can start collecting the musical instruments I see on there, lol
Typing this on an iPhone, which is tedious-- so this will be brief. Awful week--computer needs a new motherboard, so another expensive and unanticipated repair. And the new job has turned into a catastrophe. Not getting great feedback, making a few mistakes--but then, everything is new. My boss is verbally abusive and frequently yells at one of the assistants, which is ver stressful. And I was 3 minutes late one day this week and it was a HUGE deal, even tho I'm salaried and I was just doing non-time-sensitive data entry. I am at a point there--after just 3 months--where I can do nothing right, and I am stressed beyond belief. So I need to find another job asap.

I am extremely discouraged, stressed out, and just tired of everything being such a struggle.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
So I need to find another job asap.
Yeah, I'd agree. Sure sounds it. Sounds like a no-win for you. "The best time to look for a new job is while you're still working," (I was once a headhunter).
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I am extremely discouraged, stressed out, and just tired of everything being such a struggle.
"It is always in the midst, in the epicenter, of your troubles that you find serenity."
Antoine de Saint-Expury

It's coming.
Peace,
Wow--Antoine de St.-Exupery. It's been awhile since I've encountered anyone who knows that author.

It's just that I'm running out of energy and resilience. It's been a really long and arduous few years, and I thought I would certainly have at least a stable foundation of a new life. But it's just been one step forward and two steps back.
Sorry to hear about your rough time, Hoosier. My boss is on holidays and I can tell you that when she's gone the stress level drops by 50% and everything still gets done. So hang in there... and send out those resumes! Life is tough enough without having to put up with that kind of crap at work day in and day out.
hm,
I understand. Check email.
Peace,
(((hm))) you are in my prayers
how feasible would a move be...to a whole new place...new school, new job, new view?

I picked up and moved my boys and it wasn't easy but it was what we needed in order to be able to start fresh

and

we finally settled in with Cori two years ago and just moved into our own brandnew house in the next town over...THAT WE BOUGHT for $40,000 (in move in condition) and we got a contract for deed since our credit sucked

it means the kids will switch schools (again) BUT it was necessary in order to better our situation...

if you approach things with the right attitude it can make a tremendous difference (instead of saying we HAD to move...we say we chose to move....instead of talking about how hard it is to start a new school, we talk about how many cool new things that comes with)

anyway
it might be cheaper to rent an apartment somewhere else in the world than to try to keep up with a house there

and

really....the world is your oyster....apply for all different kinds of jobs...keep your mind open
In a way, I agree with Figgeroni. You gots to do, what you gots to do. But, I know that you want to keep your daughter close to her family, her dad, and her friends, and keep her in the house she is accustomed to. But, you know, kids adapt. I went to 7 different schools ... my dad was a railway man. I sure learned to make friends quickly, and I am the shy type, don't like crowds, etc.

Maybe, you could look for jobs in the surrounding areas, or in a bigger city not too far from her dad.
Thank you for your thoughts, and especially for your interest. Believe me, I have thought about moving away, getting a new start somewhere else--perhaps the town I grew up in, something like that. But I've come to the conclusion that it would only make things more complicated in my life.

I'm hanging onto my house for several reasons. First--we have 3 dogs, to which D14 is very attached, and moving into a rental would almost certainly mean at least 2 of them would have to go. I also doubt that I'll ever be able to buy another house; I'm 54, I've started over in a very similar situation to when I got out of school--no savings, no credit, no family, very few friends; this time I have a daughter I need to take care of. I'm no closer to being on my feet financially than I was when H left, altho I've really given it my best shot and I'm not inexperienced. This house will be very difficult to sell, in a market that's already difficult; there are several empty houses on my street, it needs a lot of work which I haven't been able to afford, and I'd have to take a loss--which I really cannot afford to do. And just moving would take resources I really don't have. Kids do adapt--but mine has some issues that make her a bit less adaptable than the average child. If I was moving to be near family or something like that it might be a different story, but there isn't anyone out there like that. Besides--Indianapolis is a medical town, and I'm a nurse; there will always be jobs here, and that may not be the case elsewhere, especially right now.

So--I realize I sound like I'm arguing, but I'm not really, I'm just trying to explain that I have, indeed, thought this through and come to the conclusion that the best thing right now is to stay put. It's just that I'm running out of energy here, I'm no closer to getting a life than I was a year ago altho I have seriously tried, and I'm on the cusp of being depressed enough to affect my functioning in spite of meds. And that's frightening to me.
Quote:
Believe me, I have thought about moving away, getting a new start somewhere else--perhaps the town I grew up in, something like that. But I've come to the conclusion that it would only make things more complicated in my life.


When I was 30 years old, I moved 3,000 miles to get away from a bad relationship, and my half of the problems followed me every step of the way. Did it change my life? Yes. But it didn't make working through my own crap any easier.
I keep thinking of those scenes in "Sleeping With the Enemy" where Julia Roberts moves to a giant, old, beautiful house in a small town and everything looks wonderful! Ah, different circumstances...and that's a movie. Besides, she ended up shooting her abusive ex in the entryway and that would just mess up a house for me....

I think one has to work through one's crap wherever one goes, or it DOES follow you. I think I've done a fair amount of working through, and would continue no matter where I was, most likely. There's really no point in uprooting my daughter--who hates change anyway--to move somewhere visitation would be very complicated, only to end up with the same financial and relational issues I have here.
I would say only move away if that's where the jobs are, but since you are more likely to get a job in the medical field, in Indianapolis, then of course that's where you should be. Perhaps, now is the time to start thinking of doing shift work. I am only trying to think of ways you can see beyond some of the limitations you have set on yourself and your daughter. Look at how much change D has gone through, and she's become stronger for it, I think.

This is just how I see from my point of view, from what you impart to us. There may be things that don't seem important to you, that is unsaid, that may make all the difference. But, we aren't living your life ... only you can do that, and only you can decide what is best for you. We, your virtual friends, can only 'listen' and try and give advice and put a fresh eye on your situation. I bet our advice is often already thought of.

PS 54 is the new 34, IMO.
I'm sorry things are going so rough for you again, Hoozh. One of these days, I SWEAR, things are going to turn around for us, and the guys (and gals) in the white hats are gonna win a couple!!

Pup
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
It's just that I'm running out of energy here, I'm no closer to getting a life than I was a year ago altho I have seriously tried, and I'm on the cusp of being depressed enough to affect my functioning in spite of meds. And that's frightening to me.
I've had a crazy few days, just catching up doing some thread reading, including yours.
Stay strong. Get strong. Summon it up, girl; it's already in you, part of you. It's just taken a pounding, but it's there. The quote above I identify with completely.
You are in my prayers and I have confidence that you will continue to stay strong, make the right decisions and "keep on trudgin'" even if you can't "keep on truckin.'"
Hang in.
Will talk more soon. Hopefully tomorrow.
You. Me. All of us are going to make it and thrive.

Peace,
"I'm on the cusp of being depressed enough to affect my functioning in spite of meds. And that's frightening to me."

Hoosier, you're having a rough go and that is a good reason to go and talk meds with your doctor. Sometimes a little increase in what you're taking or supplementing with something else can make a difference and every little bit helps right now. Your doctor can help with that. I'm not saying meds are the entire answer but they are a tool God provides for us in times of need.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
It's just that I'm running out of energy here, I'm no closer to getting a life than I was a year ago altho I have seriously tried, and I'm on the cusp of being depressed enough to affect my functioning in spite of meds. And that's frightening to me.
I've had a crazy few days, just catching up doing some thread reading, including yours.
Stay strong. Get strong. Summon it up, girl; it's already in you, part of you. It's just taken a pounding, but it's there. The quote above I identify with completely.
You are in my prayers and I have confidence that you will continue to stay strong, make the right decisions and "keep on trudgin'" even if you can't "keep on truckin.'"
Hang in.
Will talk more soon. Hopefully tomorrow.
You. Me. All of us are going to make it and thrive.

Peace,
Thanks, Gardener. Actually, I'm doing better at this point. heard a rumor that my boss might be transferring, feeling a bit more competent (altho that might just be a delusion!) and that helps tremendously. I had forgotten how critical it is for me to feel competent, so taking current circumstances in context--it makes a bit more sense. Also got out last evening for dinner--ok, it was part of a capital campaign meeting at church, but the pastor's a buddy of mine so it was a more pleasant evening than one might expect. getting out of my house and among people--especially with a glass of wine or 2--is therapeutic.

thanks for the words of encouragement!
Originally Posted By: whatisis
"I'm on the cusp of being depressed enough to affect my functioning in spite of meds. And that's frightening to me."

Hoosier, you're having a rough go and that is a good reason to go and talk meds with your doctor. Sometimes a little increase in what you're taking or supplementing with something else can make a difference and every little bit helps right now. Your doctor can help with that. I'm not saying meds are the entire answer but they are a tool God provides for us in times of need.

oh, I have no issues with taking depression meds. especially when I take a generic!! and I have a MD appt next week, and increasing/changing meds is on my list of things to discuss. She and I have been through a couple of marriages, a couple of divorces, and a few kids together over the years--I met her when she was an intern, and she's been my doc for almost 30 years (give or take temporary insurance-mandated changes). Nice to have someone who knows me that well.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Actually, I'm doing better at this point. heard a rumor that my boss might be transferring. . .



Hoozh,


This is SPECIFICALLY what I prayed for late last week!!!


Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Actually, I'm doing better at this point. heard a rumor that my boss might be transferring. . .



Hoozh,


This is SPECIFICALLY what I prayed for late last week!!!


Puppy
this doesn't surprise me a bit, pup. I swear you have a direct line sometimes!
Quote:
Actually, I'm doing better at this point. heard a rumor that my boss might be transferring. . .

WooHoo! Yeah! The Man upstairs must've been hearing the prayers of Puppy and yourself. I just prayed that you and your D would be okay. One must be specific, it seems.

I hope the transfer takes place soon, and that your new boss will be awesome. I will pray for this specifically.
I think when puppy calls it must be similar to getting a call on the bat phone!

thinking of you, kat
Pup,
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Actually, I'm doing better at this point. heard a rumor that my boss might be transferring
Hoozh,
This is SPECIFICALLY what I prayed for late last week!!!

I love it.
The power.....
Sometimes it's just literally awesome.

Peace,
And I heard that rumor from a second reliable source yesterday....things move very slowly in this system, so we'll see!
Just the rumour of it, must make you feel somewhat better regarding your job?
It IS encouraging. And I do feel more like I'm catching on.

In other news, xh has decided he wants to renegotiate child support since my income has increased. Three months ago he was fine with it all; I think he's leaning on the improved goodwill between us with the new girlfriend to make this move. Cripe--he's already paying less than 5% of his income, which is absurd. What a jerk--like we're living high on the proverbial hog or something.
Is there anyway that can turn out good for you? Why does he get away with paying so little?
Hoosh...is the CS in your state calculated by a state-run program calculator? If it is, then why not just let him have the state re-run the figures? It must be wrong if he's only paying 5%??

DQ
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
It IS encouraging. And I do feel more like I'm catching on.

In other news, xh has decided he wants to renegotiate child support since my income has increased. Three months ago he was fine with it all; I think he's leaning on the improved goodwill between us with the new girlfriend to make this move. Cripe--he's already paying less than 5% of his income, which is absurd. What a jerk--like we're living high on the proverbial hog or something.


I remember a few years ago when my sister's ex wanted to re-negotiate child support, he was paying $100 per month and wanted to pay $0 (I'm not kidding!). He went to a lawyer to initiate the court process and was told to go back to my sister and beg her to take $300 a month from him and not take this to court. What a morooon that guy was and my sister got $200 more per month!
I'm sure that if he pushes--and I push back, which I will--he'll back down rather than pay a lawyer. And even if this goes as far as court, he'll get shot down and end up paying MORE in support--especially since I'm now covering her health insurance. And I think he knows all that, and is just trying to see if I'm still the doormat I was at the end of the marriage. And that hoosiermama has retired long ago!
hoosier...in my state, CS is calculated and enforced by the Department of Justice and nobody needs an attorney to get it modified. If he would end up paying more, you should march yourself to where-ever you need to go, and get it upped!
I don't know, DQ--I'll have to check that out. I'm thinking when he brings it up again in October, I'm going to let him have it. his email was so condescending--"I know it's hard to balance things, my budget is tight, etc." His car is paid off, his income is very large for a single person (and I helped him get there, and he left after 2 months of prosperity), yes--D14's high school tuition is much larger than elementary school, but it's also larger for me, he owed a lot in taxes--but that's not my problem, he should have had more withheld. Maybe he shouldn't have gone to horse shows every weekend with gf#1, and he might have had more discretionary income. And he thinks D14's options and resources should be more limited because of his selfish decision? I don't think so.
MAMABEAR!!! mad
oh, yeah.

I really do think he's just trying to get me to agree to a decrease "unofficially"--which I will never do. D14's life has essentially sucked the past 2 years in many ways, many (most?) related to xH's decision to abandon his family. This isn't about me, it's about her. I never saw him making the same sacrifices and feeling the same discomforts we have felt; I haven't seen him have any significant consequences for his actions--they've all fallen on us. It's time for that to change, perhaps; at any rate, I'm not sacrificing anything of D14's so he can have a more comfortable bachelor life.
hoosh...please do us all a favor and find out what exactly happens with a CS review in your state, how it has to be initiated (do you need a lawyer or can you just do it on your own, etc), and if you can, run a CS calculator based on your best guess of his info and find out how much more $$ you should be getting each month. Then let us know what you find out, so we can either encourage you to go for it, or encourage you to just hold tight for now (if it wouldn't be more).

If its going to be more, why on earth would you not go after him for it??? That $$ is for your D, not you. SHE deserves and needs the support from him. Its not about making him pay for his choices (although we'd all love to), its about what is fair to your D in the eyes of the court system!!

I heard a story of a mom who tried to tell a judge in her divorce hearing that she wasn't going to ask for child support from her ex because she was making plenty and didn't need his money - nor did she want it. The judge admonished her and told her "that is not your decision. That money is for YOUR CHILD, not you. You are not allowed to place emotional ties upon what your child is entitled to".


Point being - its about your D...not about your xh or even about you...your D needs more and deserves it. GO GET HIM!
well, there are a couple of complicating factors. First is that he agreed to pay the majority of joint debt (because he ran up most of it) and I did not have to buy my half of the house from him (nor could I)--and that was a factor in the CS negotiations at the time of mediation (whether or not it should have been). The other factor is her tuition, which he's paying 60% of while I'm paying 40% because of our discrepancy in income. And that CAN factor into CS payments. And the number of days of overnight visitation also get calculated in--and she's with him 3 nights a week at her request (and I haven't been inclined to push her on that, since she has had so little voice in all of this). So unfortunately it's not as simple as the basic CS calculation because of tuition. My lawyer predicted this would happen. However, I'm still not going to roll over; the plan has always been for D14 to attend this school, and her plans should not be altered because of changes in xH's life--he should be the one altering plans, not D14.

I know it's not about making him pay for his choices--but it's about that last statement in the above paragraph: his decisions should not alter her resources, they should alter his. She should not have a lower standard of living. That's not how it's worked out. And while that sounds somewhat philosophical, it does get played out--judges don't care if a father has to pay the majority of his income for support, the childrens' welfare takes priority.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...his decisions should not alter her resources, they should alter his. She should not have a lower standard of living. That's not how it's worked out. And while that sounds somewhat philosophical, it does get played out--judges don't care if a father has to pay the majority of his income for support, the childrens' welfare takes priority.
Yes!
Peace,
Just journaling some weekend revelations; the iPhone typing will encourage conciseness!

Feeling stronger in the midst of the overwhelmed-ness. I will handle xH and the CS and it will be ok because my priorities are appropriate. Mamabear rules.

I read something on gardener's thread that I've heard before, even said before--but it sank in at a different level. The man who left me is much closer to the real person than the one I fell in love with. For years I waited for that guy to show back up, and I did all kinds of internal gymnastics to make him resurface--but he was long gone. I'm seeing him again in xH and his new relationship--overlaid with the mean and ugly guy he is when he's not communicating in front of her (she's a therapist, and by all accounts good person who hasn't yet encountered the real xH yet; she wants to believe she's been instrumental in healing--she's naive, in the way all lovers are naive)
Ugh--sorry, ran out of screen...

Anyway...I'm understanding my frustration in this new relationship--such as it is--with the Texas guy. I'm not so sure that the man who invited me into relationship in the beginning is still there. It has been very good at times, and it's difficult for me to experience the level of connection and healthy intimacy I felt on his visit and not want to build on it. And I think I finally understand that's healthy, not clingy. So many good elements are there, it's a natural thing to want to keep opening doors. But I've felt so much pulling away since that time, in spite of some lovely discourse to the contrary. And I understand that he's still healing, I truly do. But for all I know, this might be the real "him," a guy who throws up walls when things get close. Either way, it's painful to want to build connections and not have that returned. For all I know, I won't see him again until next spring, and that's unacceptable. I'm not saying I want to marry the guy, but when we have so many positive elements in a relationship (yeah, ok, amidst the walls, but I'm getting to that--isn't it a good thing to want to build upon them--slowly, carefully, but still--building bridges and not walls? And I feel like I am finally looking at this from a position of strength, not like a clinging vine--I want this more than I need it. Maybe this is where the rope gets dropped, where I step back and just become a friend (no benefits) and stop banging my head against the wall trying to figure out what's wrong with ME. I'm okay. It's okay to want to test the waters of intimacy--slowly, carefully--and to do that without running for cover when feelings surface, but to sit with them, abide with them, see if they fit. Perhaps he's not ready to do that; perhaps he never will be. But that doesn't make me the weaker one.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


I read something on gardener's thread that I've heard before, even said before--but it sank in at a different level. The man who left me is much closer to the real person than the one I fell in love with. For years I waited for that guy to show back up, and I did all kinds of internal gymnastics to make him resurface--but he was long gone.



Holy $HIT, Hoozh. Light-bulb moment.


Ouch!!!


Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama


I read something on gardener's thread that I've heard before, even said before--but it sank in at a different level. The man who left me is much closer to the real person than the one I fell in love with. For years I waited for that guy to show back up, and I did all kinds of internal gymnastics to make him resurface--but he was long gone.


Holy $HIT, Hoozh. Light-bulb moment.

Ouch!!!

Puppy

yeah. funny thing--I've realized it before. I knew it a few years before he left (he doesn't--never will; his partners are supposed to meet his needs, that's the way it works for him). Sometimes these concepts sink in a layer at a time, and in different ways depending upon where one is at any given time in the healing process. I'm pretty sure that in the beginning of this whole thing I thought he was in MLC, because some of it fit--but also because I wanted to keep having hope, keep believing he might come back a better person. Not sure when I left that behind, but it was long ago. It was an exit affair with all the accessories--rewriting, blaming, rationalizing. Far easier than looking in the mirror and accepting he might have some responsibility for the marriage falling apart.
hm,
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
...Hoozh. Light-bulb moment.
Standing O moment!
And maybe, just maybe,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
...I want this more than I need it.
you needed this now more than you wanted it.
That was a joy to read.

Peace,
ohhhhh, sometimes I am really blonde, especially on Monday mornings....

I'm sorry, I needed WHAT more than I wanted it?! what part of all that processing was a joy to read?! there was a lot of crap running thru my head this morning (woke up at 3:30, couldn't go back to sleep)...can you clarify for me (batting my eyelashes....)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this HM, it is helping me process some realizations of my own about STBXH. As painful as it is to come to these realizations, it helps.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I'm sorry, I needed WHAT more than I wanted it?!
This:
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
And I feel like I am finally looking at this from a position of strength, not like a clinging vine--I want this more than I need it.
Re-reading it, I realize now you meant this in your present frame of mind and processing/conclusions, am I right? I originally read it as past tense: "I wanted Texas guy more than I needed him," and I was suggesting that perhaps - in the past - you needed him more than wanted him.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
what part of all that processing was a joy to read?!
The clarity of your processing, conclusions and acceptance:
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
... And I think I finally understand that's healthy, not clingy... I understand that he's still healing, I truly do...For all I know, I won't see him again until next spring, and that's unacceptable...isn't it a good thing to want to build upon them--slowly, carefully, but still--building bridges and not walls? And I feel like I am finally looking at this from a position of strength..I'm okay. It's okay to want to test the waters of intimacy... without running for cover when feelings surface...that doesn't make me the weaker one.

Peace,
There is so much good stuff here, so much inspirational ah-ha points you have covered in your last couple of posts, that I cannot say anything, but .... WOW!!!! You are one awesome Hmama. So many of us here strain to be at the point you are at, even the oldtimers like me.
ah...thanks for your patience, Gardener.

I realize I obsess about all this stuff. I want to put all the pain behind me, to move forward (whatever that looks like!), to heal, to find peace. NOW!

And how do I find that fine, healthy line between being accepting and understanding, and having no boundaries or needs? I've never been any good at that, and it ALWAYS gets me in trouble. This seems a relatively safe place to discover that line, tho.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
There is so much good stuff here, so much inspirational ah-ha points you have covered in your last couple of posts, that I cannot say anything, but .... WOW!!!! You are one awesome Hmama. So many of us here strain to be at the point you are at, even the oldtimers like me.


Oh, sweetie--you must be joking!! I'm just as confused as anyone else here, perhaps more so. I'm happy if anyone can learn from my ramblings, but I'm not sure how!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
ah...thanks for your patience, Gardener..And how do I find that fine, healthy line between being accepting and understanding, and having no boundaries or needs? I've never been any good at that, and it ALWAYS gets me in trouble. This seems a relatively safe place to discover that line, tho.
You're welcome, my friend.
This place is safe...and a Godsend.

Peace,
oh, absolutely.
Getting my computer back tonite--hallelujah! I can type about 3 lines, then the screen changes and I'm typing blind, so if some of my posts don't make sense, that would be why!

So I emailed Texas guy yesterday, tactfully and kindly asking what he wants/needs from me at this point, because the mixed messages are confusing. Since his visit I've gotten a few great, expressive emails about his feelings, how close he feels, etc. But communication is sporadic at best, perhaps a couple of notes a week. He'll occasionally write about some crisis with his ex or his daughters, or chairing a group of scientists studying the public health effects of the gulf spill, (sometimes I lose sight of the "scientist" aspect!), -- but then I get no followup, even when I ask. If he doesn't hear from me for a few days he'll be very concerned; once when he assumed I had gone on a date Igot quite a bit of communication! And perhaps he IS just busy and doesn't feel any urgency to chat. Who knows--it's so long since I have been in any kind of relationship that I don't even remember what's normal!! But there it is, and I'll be interested in his response--because I truly am at a loss here and I feel like I'm in high school again an I don't much like it!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Who knows--it's so long since I have been in any kind of relationship that I don't even remember what's normal!! But there it is, and I'll be interested in his response--because I truly am at a loss here and I feel like I'm in high school again an I don't much like it!


I'm with you, Hmama! For those of us who've never had a date in twenty years it's hard to even remember what it was like then let alone what you should do now! I have a lady at church who sits with me every bible study, seems interested in me and yet she said she'd bring me a DVD a week ago and didn't. My thought processes start clicking in "is she really interested in me?" "If I was interested in someone, even as a friend, I'd remember to bring something I said I would" "Is she just a self involved person and I shouldn't even consider her on any level " blah blah blah. Now, I'm not looking to date at this moment but I'm watching how women treat me trying to figure out what their actions mean. I dunno! I think because we've been so hurt we are hyper vigilant to anything that might indicate rejection but then, on the other hand, you don't want to set yourself up with someone who isn't that interested in the first place. How do you know? Others will have to weigh in on this as I'm fresh out of any useful advice!
Originally Posted By: whatisis
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Who knows--it's so long since I have been in any kind of relationship that I don't even remember what's normal!! But there it is, and I'll be interested in his response--because I truly am at a loss here and I feel like I'm in high school again an I don't much like it!


I'm with you, Hmama! For those of us who've never had a date in twenty years it's hard to even remember what it was like then let alone what you should do now! I have a lady at church who sits with me every bible study, seems interested in me and yet she said she'd bring me a DVD a week ago and didn't. My thought processes start clicking in "is she really interested in me?" "If I was interested in someone, even as a friend, I'd remember to bring something I said I would" "Is she just a self involved person and I shouldn't even consider her on any level " blah blah blah. Now, I'm not looking to date at this moment but I'm watching how women treat me trying to figure out what their actions mean. I dunno! I think because we've been so hurt we are hyper vigilant to anything that might indicate rejection but then, on the other hand, you don't want to set yourself up with someone who isn't that interested in the first place. How do you know? Others will have to weigh in on this as I'm fresh out of any useful advice!

It is maddening, isn't it?! not to mention undignified!
Which is why I have no intention of dating divorced or just separated. No intention of getting emotionally involved with anyone romantically. Friendship with my H is good enough, although I do want my freedom to do what I want.

You are both brave to even nibble at the prospect. I cannot and will not do it.

What was Mr. Texas' response, Hmama, if any?
Oh, believe me, I wasn't looking. This just found me, and if I had had any inkling that any of this would happen I probably would never have signed onto my email that day back in January--which would have been a shame, really.

I have not heard back from Texas guy about my note, altho we have been trading research humor throughout the day.
yup, we research folks are more fun than a barrel of monkeys....yukking it up alllllll the time.
So, the date shook him up huh?
Originally Posted By: v1olin
So, the date shook him up huh?
only temporarily--for a couple of days.

So, I have my computer back. Unfortunately, no Internet yet....
Hi Hoosier! You know...since I follow your sitch, I've also followed along with your story of Texas guy...

I'm glad you simply asked him what is up...I just want to warn you that you are likely to get an answer of "nothing is up, why would anything be up? Its always been casual, I don't want a relationship, I've been honest about that since the beginning, blah blah blah".

One of the things I had to do after divorce was learn everything I could about men and dating...as I did want to get back into the pool but didn't have any skills and no clue what was going on out there. So as part of this sort of man-and-dating-training, I learned this: even if a man acts jealous about something, it doesn't MEAN anything. They can be jealous without having feelings for you. (Not that Texas doesn't have feelings for you because he does but...) when you mentioned he was edgy because he worried you were on a date, I know it is tempting to think that they get jealous because they want us for themselves. But as it turns out, this isn't the case. They may even be jealous if a gal friend (truly just a friend) has a date. Jealousy in man-language may not be attached to romantic feelings. It appears to be something else entirely.

Hon - Texas guy was a great stepping stone for you. You got to FEEL something again. You got some great fun, conversation, and warm fuzzy feelings from it all....

But he's not the one for you. You know that already, I know.

The one for YOU will not make it any secret that he wants you all to himself. But to make room for the one who is yours, you gotta trim the low-hanging fruit off the vine (Texas guy) and make yourself truly available.

You have done so many things right so far, and this is one of them...by that I mean, you have waited all this time to heal from your whole ordeal before getting into a real relationship. I think you're ready now...

xoxo
DQ
I don't think I can do this alone much longer. I really don't.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I don't think I can do this alone much longer. I really don't.
What do you mean?

Peace,
I'm hoping you mean that you are ready to find a great partner...and I'll pray he is just around the corner for you.

DQ
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I don't think I can do this alone much longer. I really don't.
What do you mean?

Peace,

I just meant that I'm running out of strength and energy and resilience and being a single mom--part-time, of course--is sooooo not what I had planned, and high school starts next week. I'm just running on empty.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
I'm hoping you mean that you are ready to find a great partner...and I'll pray he is just around the corner for you.

DQ

DQ, it's not even about finding a partner--because I don't have any desperate need for that. it's about being connected, period--friends, support, people to hang out with and people to lend support from time to time. I've reached out all over the place, but I think xH definitely got the friends in the divorce. he definitely got the family.
Thank you for taking the time to follow my sitch--and to write such a thoughtful post. just to clarify--

I was fairly specific--I asked, "what do you need from me, what do you want?" to say "what's up" would not have yielded much useful information, I'm afraid.

he's never said anything about "casual." often, quite the opposite. it's that rubber-band thingy--the closer it gets, the more he reflexively pulls away. until he gets close again. mixed messages...I don't think he knows what he wants.

the "jealousy thing"--he assumed I was on a date, and I didn't correct him, mostly as an experiment really. it wasn't intentional. and the response was...interesting. that's all. I wasn't putting much stock in it; my brain is research-oriented these days (I can't help it, I'm soaking in it!) and when the scenario presented itself, I couldn't help making it an observational study.

I don't know what's going to happen here; I've tried to back off and detach and all that stuff, and I'm not counting on anything; this is a learning experience. At worst, we got to help each other through some of the worst times of our lives and we were as kind as we were able to be to each other--and that's not a bad thing. I really didn't want to feel these feelings--perhaps ever again, certainly not before there was more healing, but things don't always go according to plan. The last thing I want to do right now is to go looking--I'm just not ready for all the games and stuff involved in all of that. Not because of Texas guy, but because my life is already rather overwhelming at the moment.

I hope that makes sense....
Quote:
I read something on gardener's thread that I've heard before, even said before--but it sank in at a different level. The man who left me is much closer to the real person than the one I fell in love with. For years I waited for that guy to show back up, and I did all kinds of internal gymnastics to make him resurface--but he was long gone.
This is from a couple of pages ago. It's something I'm realizing now.

I fell in love and married someone on the potential of what I thought they could be. I thought I could bring STBXW out of her shell and we'd experience all these amazing moments together.

As time went on and life got disappointing and difficult -- it's life afterall -- she retreated more and more back into the quiet, suspicious, wallflower she was when we met.

So I guess I failed in my efforts to change/help her. The problem was it was probably doomed from the start. The person she is now is the person she was then. In between was a mirage.
Originally Posted By: ClingingToHope
[quote]
I fell in love and married someone on the potential of what I thought they could be. I thought I could bring STBXW out of her shell and we'd experience all these amazing moments together.

As time went on and life got disappointing and difficult -- it's life afterall -- she retreated more and more back into the quiet, suspicious, wallflower she was when we met.

So I guess I failed in my efforts to change/help her. The problem was it was probably doomed from the start. The person she is now is the person she was then. In between was a mirage.


It was no mirage. You were trying to make someone something you wanted her to be not who she was. I'd say that's always a formula for failure! Often when we want to make someone something else we are saying more about ourselves than about them. Why do we pick someone who we see as defective and need to "fix" them? Do we feel unable to relate to someone we see as "equal" to ourselves? It's easier and less scary to be in a R with someone who "needs" us rather than with someone who is confident and happy with who they are. If they need you to "fix" them then they won't leave you but be eternally grateful to you, the Grand Poo Bah of Fixing...that's the fantasy anyway which is seldom the reality. Just something to think about.
Wii, you are so right. Sometimes the fixing thing is done on a subconscious level. Then slowly we come to realize what we are doing, and that ultimately, we are damaging that person. And worse, they come to realize it too; and they hit the reset button. Think about it; they could've been quite happy as the wallflower and maybe met another happy wallflower, but in swoops a handyman who wants the wallflower to leave the wall; to rip her/himself away from what is comfortable for them. Handymen should stick to other handywomen, and happily fix things around their house, and leave the wallflowers alone. In my humble opinion.

Hmama, you didn't say if Texas guy ever replied to your email. If he has left it this long, I think you know that you're in for another rollercoaster ride, unless you get off and leave. Perhaps, when he is totally ready, he could contact you again, if he feels anything for you. Keeping you hanging on is a disservice to you because you can't move on then.

I am going to be doing a research course next semester, but it's to do with media. I am looking forward to it.

Thinking about you. If you need my tel. nr. to just talk, I can send it through FB.
Originally Posted By: ClingingToHope
Quote:
I read something on gardener's thread that I've heard before, even said before--but it sank in at a different level. The man who left me is much closer to the real person than the one I fell in love with. For years I waited for that guy to show back up, and I did all kinds of internal gymnastics to make him resurface--but he was long gone.
This is from a couple of pages ago. It's something I'm realizing now.

I fell in love and married someone on the potential of what I thought they could be. I thought I could bring STBXW out of her shell and we'd experience all these amazing moments together.

As time went on and life got disappointing and difficult -- it's life afterall -- she retreated more and more back into the quiet, suspicious, wallflower she was when we met.

So I guess I failed in my efforts to change/help her. The problem was it was probably doomed from the start. The person she is now is the person she was then. In between was a mirage.


Sadly, this happens for an awful LOT of people. frown

Puppy
Hoosh...can I ask, what part of the US do you live in? If that's too personal for this board, no problem.

DQ
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
Hoosh...can I ask, what part of the US do you live in? If that's too personal for this board, no problem.

DQ

lol! you must be from across the pond! a "hoosier" is a person from Indiana. so...midwest, great lakes region; Indianapolis to be specific.

not too personal--I think it's in my profile anyway.
You can sometimes see people's location under their membership name. Some, don't like to have it known, but Hmama has hers. smile
why do you ask?
LOL! I thought "hoosiermama" was a clever way of saying "who's your momma"!

I had asked in case we were anywhere close enough to grab a coffee sometime...however, I'm up here in Oregon (that's Orygun to the rest of you)...a little too far for a coffee meet up!
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
LOL! I thought "hoosiermama" was a clever way of saying "who's your momma"!

I had asked in case we were anywhere close enough to grab a coffee sometime...however, I'm up here in Oregon (that's Orygun to the rest of you)...a little too far for a coffee meet up!

it is...kind of a pun. cheap humor!

yes, I'm afraid that is a bit far for a cuppa. I am on the .alt tho.
ok, here's my concern:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100727174909.htm

so isolation is generally accepted as a big stressor for everyone, not just me being overly sensitive to it.
Hoozh, I'd be concerned if you WEREN'T concerned about it. Wanting connectedness in your life, and a level of intimacy with people, to me, is a sign of emotional HEALTH, not the other way around.

In fact, I have a problem with the opposite. I tend to isolate myself, intentionally, from friends and family when things get stressful -- something I'm working on. I "pull away." If that's a character flaw (and I think it is), then how can the OPPOSITE -- a sincere desire for more closeness, connectedness and intimacy -- be anything other than a sign of emotional health and maturity?

Puppy
I think it's more just a "guy thing" as opposed to a "character flaw." Just something guys tend to do more under stress, whereas women tend to seek out connectedness. Perhaps one reason we typically live longer, as reflected in this study!
Yeah, you might be right. Haven't read the article yet, but I will!
it's brief....
Interesting article.
Omg--I get it. It hurts, but there's a resolution to this pain; denial was keeping me stuck in a cycle of confusion, hope, and disappointment. And because I'm so freaking good and experienced at denial, it took awhile for me to catch on. And because denial is ultimately a coping mechanism, it wasn't going to go away until I had the emotional resources to get by without it.

DQ, it was disturbing, but I finally hear what you were telling me. He's just not that into me. And that doesn't make me inadequate, and it doesn't make him evil. But yes, I do want to be wanted. And at this point in my life, I'm worth wanting.

Ouch.
Posted By: kml Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 08/15/10 04:02 AM
Aw Hoosh - you ARE worth wanting. We both are.

I had a somewhat similar post-divorce relationship. A guy I totally adored, but he just wouldn't let me get too close. I called him "the Hermit" to my friends - he's been single for 20 years, I knew going in that he wasn't a good bet for a long-term relationship. But I fell for him anyway.

Eventually he dumped me for his old college girlfriend - I kinda understand that, actually. I watched He's Just Not That Into YOu with my best friend, a whole lot of it rang true. I've been driving around for four months with an index card stuck in the visor of my car that says He's Just Not That Into You.

I've recently gone back online to try to move on. I haven't dated anyone yet, but there is a guy who is a likely prospect. He's out of town on business right now but coming back soon, and we will probably go on a date when he does.

And TOTALLY predictably, the Hermit is making noises now - what do they think, that they can drop you and move on to another woman and you'll just sit there patiently waiting for them to return? He's clearly got some issue with the prospect of me dating another guy, but until he can man up and admit he made a mistake and I'm the one he wants........too bad, so sad.

I don't know what my rambling point is here, except that I'm here in solidarity with you, dating at 54 sucks, but I don't know any other way to find a new love who will appreciate my fabulousness.

Ellie
Thanks,Ellie.

The thing is, I'm not at all anxious to date, nor am I really looking for someone to spend the rest of my life with. I've had 2 Epic Fails, which have left me sadder, wiser, and far poorer--I honestly may never be able to retire. I would not feel "incomplete" if I simply continued to heal, raise my daughter and launch her into a happy and successful life, and developed some good friendships. I definitely wasn't looking when this came along; Texas guy was an old close friend I looked up online to see how his life turned out--like a dozen other old friends--altho very few replied. He and I happened to be in the same place, going thru the same stuff, and in the beginning we clung onto each other like 2 drowning people. Fortunately we're both grownups, we have decades of counseling between us, and it sorta righted itself and integrated into our lives. The few times we've met since them have been great, but between the baggage and current crises, it brought us here. I'm grateful for the support, and I think we have a good friendship-- but now I know I'd be foolish to expect any more than that. And that's that. And I don't feel any need to get out there and look around--I'm fine where I am. I need to keep healing, keep growing, and keep raising my daughter--and that's all I need. Well, some friends would be nice, too.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I need to keep healing, keep growing, and keep raising my daughter--and that's all I need. Well, some friends would be nice, too.



And this lamp. And this remote control. And my dog, Shithead . . .


This is All I Need
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
I need to keep healing, keep growing, and keep raising my daughter--and that's all I need. Well, some friends would be nice, too.



And this lamp. And this remote control. And my dog, Shithead . . .


This is All I Need
lol!! I needed that, pup!

high school starts tomorrow! may God have mercy on my poor wretched soul....

oh, and D14 too--I guess it isn't really all about me!
brief update:

D14 survived her first day of high school with only a couple of glitches (locker combinations, lunch routine, etc.). several potential new friends. already working on getting her retested re: her math learning disorder so we can get her the appropriate resources. she's the only freshman in advanced choir. life is looking up for sure!

also heard from Texas guy. his xW got married over the weekend, only told their kids a couple of days later (teenage girls). what is wrong with people--you read about this stuff on the boards all the time; what on earth makes people that insensitive to their own children?! (rhetorical question.)
omg. I just got fired.

"we like you but this is a bad fit."

this has never happened before. what am I supposed to do now?
Deep Breath and big hugs! I am terribly sorry. I haven't been in this position except back when I was 21 and I just went back to my previous job.

I think what you should do is 1)Figure out if you want to stay in the same field. 2) Check with a job search agency to see what might be available. 3)Update your resume if necessary. 4)Take temp jobs in the meantime to gain experience and make new contacts if you are able. 5) This one door closed and that means there is another one open somewhere. Treat this as an opportunity.

hugs, kat
I've never been in this position before either--I've always done really well (well, except in the ministry job--where I did really well but ended up on the wrong end of the political clique there, inadvertently). I only got a week's notice, too.
Is there any type of severance package? What's the labour laws in regards to notice? Anyway, aside from the practicalities, I'm so sorry this has happened to you Hmama! My brother was let go not too long ago and I know how difficult that was for him but, on the bright side, he's now working at a job that he loves. He would call me in tears, finally took a job that was below his qualifications for six months and then got a job that he really wanted! You will too. I'll pray for your success. smile
Are they going to block you from filing for unemployment?
Oh no, Hmama! I also think you should use this as an opportunity. Get signed onto EI asap, if you qualify.

Perhaps you can ask for more child support/alimony from XH?

You are in my thoughts.
If you were still on your probationary period, I believe they don't have to really have a reason to let you go. However I do think that you can file for unemployment as long as you are applying for jobs. I hate this for you.

kat
yes, I was still on probation. what most likely happened: we have one opening, and 5 qualified applicants, all of whom have significant research experience, while I had none. I was told it would take 6-8 months for me to catch on, and I've been here 3 1/2 months--but if they had several people who could essentially walk in and do the job tomorrow, of course they're going to hire them.

I'm a nurse--I can never file for unemployment because there are always jobs. they may not fit at all in a single mom's schedule, but they're out there.

and no, there's no severance. I might--MIGHT--have a week of benefit time.
hoos I am so sorry.. you will be in my prayers.
Hoozh,

(Here's Puppy, channeling our old friend SG):

What are your goals for today? confused

Puppy
you can still draw unemployment until you accept one of those jobs Hooz
This a chance to change direction...paint one wall red and another purple!! Dream big and go get it!

kat
I have a friend who is a nurse and works at a hospital in Indy, St Vincents maybe? I will have to check.

She is a single mom of two little boys and I know she only works Friday and Saturday and makes a great living. She gets ZERO help from the boys dad.
Sounds promising, NNP!!

I don't know how the whole "unemployment" thing works. I do know, like Hoozh says, that you have to show that you're actively looking and haven't found anything, but is there a way to collect short-term, saying you haven't found anything . . . "yet"????

Seems to me there might be.

Puppy
yes there is. I suggest Hoozh file immediately... once she is unemployed for a week she will start receiving benefits while she is searching for a job.
(((((Hoozh)))))

I am so sorry. I have faith that you will find something better.
(((hm)))
Posted By: kml Re: My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations) - 08/19/10 06:35 PM
Sorry hon!

Okay - checklist for oyu:

1) File for unemployment ASAP. You don't know how long it will take to get a new job.

2) Go to the library and check out a copy of the Tightwad's Gazette. Inspiring reading for belt-tightening.

3) While at the library check out some comedy dvd's for watching.

4) Believe that a better job awaits.

5) Make a collage with all the good things you want to have enter your life and look at it daily.

6) Get a good friend to give you an honest opinion on your job interview wardrobe.

((((hugs)))))

Ellie

Single best book I've ever read on finding/getting a good job:


How to Get a Better Job in this Crazy World -- Robert Half
Is there a specific Job Search Database for Nurses in Indy? I can just imagine how panicky you must feel, but just take it one day at a time, doing all you can do to get a job. I am sure if you do that, a door will open. You are long past due for a miracle, and He knows what you need (more than you do).

(((((hugs for Hmama)))))
I agree, BeingMe. As I have prayed for Hoozh, the last two evenings driving home, I've seen a rainbow BOTH EVENINGS when approaching my house! I'm telling you, it's God's promise that He won't abandon us.

Puppy
Thank you all. I'm kinda speechless.

I'm not panicking--I didn't even follow my usual advice to take an evening and wallow in embracing the suck. I just cannot go there, I have to be on my game. I even managed to put a positive spin on this for D14--somehow. Continuing to beat the bushes and send in multiple applications, and it's far too soon to hear anything back yet. I've also contacted my "peeps" to see if anyone knows of anything. so--I'm doing what I can. I did not go to work today, called in sick; I will go in tomorrow and try to do something to look busy but don't really know what that will be. If I can stand it at all, I will stick it out till the end of next week (last possible day is the 27th) so I have the largest possible paycheck; if it's just too stressful I will just quit early. lots to do before the benefits stop, making a list for that.

thank you all again for all of your support and prayers. you're keeping me from scraping the bottom.
Ah, are you the type who is able to focus clearly, and concisely on what to do, when in a crisis? If so, great. You are going about this in the right way.

Sending positive thoughts and prayers your way. smile
Most of the time, yes--a crisis causes me to focus. It's a codependent/ACOA thing. That's why I worked years in the ER, on a medevac helicopter, pediatric intensive care, even taught paramedics--helping other people know how to deal with crisis! truly, sometimes I have wondered over the past couple of years, if I create a crisis where there isn't one just so I know how to respond. "normal" life is a mystery to me at this point!
I'm the same way, Hoozh -- forever catching a plane at the very last minute, or whatever.

Brinksmanship! shocked

Puppy
oh, is that what it's called?! I like that a lot better than "codependence"!
good weekend.

D14 came home Saturday afternoon, the first time I'd seen her since she started school earlier in the week (have I mentioned lately just how much I hate shared custody??!!). She's a whole different kid--lighter, happier, joking around, lots of funny stories. She's made a couple of friends, which I had no doubt would happen, and judging by their FB pages they seem like nice girls. She's the only freshman in advanced choir and can answer music theory questions the upperclassmen get wrong (she even noticed a mistake the teacher made--but didn't point it out). The band/choir teacher was disappointed she wasn't in band (freshman have to choose band or choir), and is going to work out a way she can play the new xylophone for band performances--just because. all of her teachers prounounced her name correctly the first day, which is remarkable--we have a long and complex Italian name that NOBODY can seem to pronounce! so it looks like this is going to be a good year--I know it's really too early to tell, but if the first week is any indication, she's found a niche or two for herself. working to get the educational testing scheduled so she can get appropriate resources for the math LD. I couldn't be happier!

my cousin stopped by to look at my dryer and mower, told me which parts to order, and will return to fix them; it may take awhile...but at least we're moving in that direction!

nothing yet on the job front, but I didn't anticipate hearing anything this soon. my message to my support folks has been--don't let me wallow for more than an evening, I need to keep some momentum and I cannot afford to become paralyzed. so if I start throwing pity parties, I don't need validation and hand-holding, I need a series of good swift kicks in the behind. I have many people praying for me, including a few nuns!! and that can't be bad!!! polishing my resume, trying to download Office onto my computer with the new motherboard so I have a word processing program (I can do it for free thru IUWare as long as I'm still employed--so, this week) but it's not downloading...this is a pain, but I'll find a way.

I think this is going to be one of those one-breath-at-a-time periods of my life; gotta keep breathing.
Hoozh,

If you continue to have a problem downloading the full MS Office suite, try MSWorks instead (is there a free version of THAT for you?). You really don't need all of the robust features of Office (or even of Word) just to do nice resumes and cover letters and thank-you letters and such.

Just a thought.

Puppy

P.S. glad to see your note now (I read this AFTER I sent you the e-mail) about needing to be nooodged!! grin
oh, counting on the noooodging!

nope, don't have the option of a free download of Works, just the whole Office Professional. I think I'll have to do it via downloading at work onto a flashdrive. yes, all of this is quite legal...just gotta get it done asap.
arrrrrggghh. got a note from D14's first period teacher--she's been late every morning except the first morning. today is the only other day I've driven her to school--she's been with xH otherwise, and she had plenty of time this morning but is still struggling with the locker. according to xH--"I've run into a boatload of construction every morning." he lives across town from us--as close as possible to OW#1 and still inside the county.

then I get a call from D14 on arrival home; she got in trouble for not having the right brand of uniform shorts. she wore these khakis last year to her other school without issues; they're exactly like uniform pants except less expensive. xH had a late meeting, can't take her to the uniform store before it closes (because, of course, these things are not open during convenient hours because they just don't have to be!!) so I'm going to have to do that--and he's yelling at me because I'm not providing her pants and he bought her 3 shirts!!! uhhh--hello!! why does he think he's doing us a favor??!!

oh, and btw--he made sure I knew not to count on him to help me out at all until I get a job. so don't even think along those lines. this, from the man I supported through grad school and residency--3 years.

just had to vent. wonder why I keep needing to change blood pressure meds???
I would love to punch him in the nose!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
"I've run into a boatload of construction every morning."

Leave earlier.

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
--and he's yelling at me...
Yelling at you? C'mon, hm: Boundary time!

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
..,.he made sure I knew not to count on him to help me out at all until I get a job.
"I won't help you out when you need it, only after you no longer do?" crazy mad
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
I would love to punch him in the nose!
Yep.

Hang in there, friend. We're all praying along with those nuns. grin

Peace,
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
I would love to punch him in the nose!

actually, I had another anatomical region in mind....
Do you ever remind him about how much you assisted him through grad school? Now, it's time to pay the piper ... although, I know he probably won't care a hoot. Definitely a taker, not a giver, unless he can get something out of it.
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
I would love to punch him in the nose!
actually, I had another anatomical region in mind....

The coveted Belly-Laugh Of The Day Award! laugh laugh laugh laugh
hey hoosier...NOW is the PERFECT time to get on back in there for a child support review!!!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
"I've run into a boatload of construction every morning."

Leave earlier.
this was actually his statement, not mine...but yeah, it's not rocket science, is it?

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
--and he's yelling at me...
Yelling at you? C'mon, hm: Boundary time! sorry--more a colloquialism. he didn't actually raise his voice, or I would definitely have let him have it.

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
..,.he made sure I knew not to count on him to help me out at all until I get a job.
"I won't help you out when you need it, only after you no longer do?" crazy mad
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
I would love to punch him in the nose!
Yep. oh, my hero! defending my honor.
Hang in there, friend. We're all praying along with those nuns. grin thanks. I'll take it.

Peace,
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
hey hoosier...NOW is the PERFECT time to get on back in there for a child support review!!!


an excellent idea. but hopefully I'll have a job before it ever gets to court. and then we can re-examine it.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Do you ever remind him about how much you assisted him through grad school? Now, it's time to pay the piper ... although, I know he probably won't care a hoot. Definitely a taker, not a giver, unless he can get something out of it.

yes, actually awhile back I had to borrow $75 because of an unexpected expense, and he refused; I reminded him of this. and yes, he's the essence of a taker.
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: NNP1965
I would love to punch him in the nose!
actually, I had another anatomical region in mind....

The coveted Belly-Laugh Of The Day Award! laugh laugh laugh laugh

well, some things don't even require much imagination....
just came across a really promising job opening--a trauma prevention/education position at a hospital that's getting accredited as a Level II trauma center. I have all the qualifications, and then some. and it's something I'd really enjoy. since it's a nursing position, the salary would have to be relatively reasonable, especially because of all the experience they're asking for. and...I have connections there, someone who knows the trauma surgeon and his nurse.

positive thoughts, crossed fingers, prayers...whatever you've got! thanks!!
Positive thoughts for you!
HM, hope that this is the window opening for you....
thoughts and prayers coming your way!
thanks, y'all. I'll keep you posted.
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
just came across a really promising job opening and...I have connections there, someone who knows the trauma surgeon and his nurse.
Well, this certainly sounds good.
Hey, you are the best person for this position. You know that. They don't know it yet, but if you get to talk to them, they will!
I will be praying for this one for ya!

Peace,
Originally Posted By: Gardener


Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
..,.he made sure I knew not to count on him to help me out at all until I get a job.
"I won't help you out when you need it, only after you no longer do?"



Sounds like he missed his calling, Hoozh. The Wicca-humper should've been a loan officer.


Pupy
lol, pup!!

I think I wrote that poorly; he didn't indicate he'd help me out later, either! just "don't expect my help in this."
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
just came across a really promising job opening and...I have connections there, someone who knows the trauma surgeon and his nurse.
Well, this certainly sounds good.
Hey, you are the best person for this position. You know that. They don't know it yet, but if you get to talk to them, they will!
I will be praying for this one for ya!

Peace,

well, here's the thing--I really am!!!!! not just selling myself here, but I have the background in spades. and even better--I could really enjoy this, too. hadn't even considered that as an option.

I've officially applied, and I sent a resume to my contact person. she advised that she'd already been contacted that my app is in, and said "resume looks great!"
hm,
In another re-invention, I was a recruiter for five years.
My advice: great start, but push a little. Don't wait.
Call your contact and find out the name of the person who "app is in" with. See if your contact has enough influence to get that person to set up a meeting with you on their recommendation alone.
If not, ask your contact if he or she would mind (or if he/she thinks it wise) if you call the decision maker yourself. Introduce yourself, acknowledge that he/she must have many resumes (and other things to do, besides) but you wanted to just introduce yourself and let them know how very interested you are in taking on this position and was wondering if you could schedule a short introductory meeting (not "interview").

Even if they say, "no," or "I haven't even looked at these resumes, yet," "we'll be in touch, etc.," say "I understand completely. Would you mind if I check in with you next week (day, date and time)?" If they say yes, call back exactly on that day, date, and time. If they say no, say, "I understand, thanks for your time, I look forward to meeting you." Follow up with the same thing in a snail mail thank-you for their time and a "in addition to my resume, I'd like to call your attention to the following significant accomplishments (or qualifications) that I will bring to this position." Then stay on top of your contact.

But you probably know all this: This just re-fired all my dormant recruiter synapses! grin
excellent ideas! thanks, gardener. you've got quite the background!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
In another re-invention, I was a recruiter for five years.
My advice: great start, but push a little. Don't wait.
Call your contact and find out the name of the person who "app is in" with. See if your contact has enough influence to get that person to set up a meeting with you on their recommendation alone.
If not, ask your contact if he or she would mind (or if he/she thinks it wise) if you call the decision maker yourself. Introduce yourself, acknowledge that he/she must have many resumes (and other things to do, besides) but you wanted to just introduce yourself and let them know how very interested you are in taking on this position and was wondering if you could schedule a short introductory meeting (not "interview").

Even if they say, "no," or "I haven't even looked at these resumes, yet," "we'll be in touch, etc.," say "I understand completely. Would you mind if I check in with you next week (day, date and time)?" If they say yes, call back exactly on that day, date, and time. If they say no, say, "I understand, thanks for your time, I look forward to meeting you." Follow up with the same thing in a snail mail thank-you for their time and a "in addition to my resume, I'd like to call your attention to the following significant accomplishments (or qualifications) that I will bring to this position." Then stay on top of your contact.

But you probably know all this: This just re-fired all my dormant recruiter synapses! grin



whistle whistle whistle whistle


What Gardener says, Hoozh. BINGO.

Puppy
Wow!
My first whistle whistle whistle whistle from Pup!

Banner day!
already done. we'll see what I hear back.
Gadzooks! Now I know why I didn't get the jobs I really wanted. Good pointers, Mr. G.
BM,
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Gadzooks! Now I know why I didn't get the jobs I really wanted. Good pointers, Mr. G.
You're welcome.
And thank you: I haven't read or heard the word "gadzooks" in years. laugh

Peace,
ok, gardener, things have been moving so fast I haven't had a chance to get back on here! got one better than contacting HR, even! my contact person there, to whom I sent a resume this morning, emailed it to the trauma department, bypassing HR and saving at least a week!!!
YES!
The advice still stands. Do what you can to talk to, get face-to-face with, the decision maker asap.
Go, HM!
the interesting thing is, a lot of people there remember me from waaaaay back. the first half of my career was in trauma-related stuff, but I haven't done anything in that area since '93. fortunately, I was younger and hotter back then!! and very competent. heck, no wonder they remember me!!

the decision-maker will be the trauma surgeon; his nurse is holding my resume right now.
You go girl!! Doing something you love isn't a job it si getting paid to have fun! Fingers crossed and prayers said. smile

kat
hm,
YES!! AGAIN!!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,
YES!! AGAIN!!

lol!! to which part?!
Happy 100th page.
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Happy 100th page.
Wow!! I think it may be time for a new thread!!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
Originally Posted By: Gardener
hm,YES!! AGAIN!!
lol!! to which part?!
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
a lot of people there remember me from waaaaay back...the decision-maker will be the trauma surgeon; his nurse is holding my resume right now.
Those parts!
Good luck and peace,
sigh. I thought it was maybe the part about having been hot and competent. you just burst my bubble!
hm,
Originally Posted By: hoosiermama
sigh. I thought it was maybe the part about having been hot and competent. you just burst my bubble!
The hot and competent parts you still have. The job, you don't have yet. So the Surgeon and nurse in possession of your resume and your availability is what matters now! wink
Peace,
Ladies and gentlemen--the wisdom of Solomon, right here on my thread!!
and on that note, closing this thread and beginning another.
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