With my last thread locked, I am now beginning a new one, the first one started now that I am actually D'ed.
The story so far:
King of Pain King of Pain, 2 If I Could Change The World... Used To The Pain She'll Think Of Me Walk It Off Winner At A Losing Game Better Now Worried Life BluesDon't Think I Don't Think About ItKey to the Highway One SlipUNSTOPPABLE
Rascal Flatts
So, so you made a lot of mistakes
Walked down the road a little sideways
Cracked a brick when you hit the wall
Yeah, you've had a pocketful of regrets
Pulled you down faster than a sunset
Hey, it happens to us all
When the cold, hard rain just won't quit
And you can't see your way out of it
You find your faith that's been lost and shaken
You take back what's been taken
Get on your knees and dig down deep
You can do what you think is impossible
Keep on believing, don't give in
It'll come and make you whole again
It always will, it always does
Love is unstoppable
Love, it can weather any storm
Bring you back to being born, again
Oh, it's the helping hand when you needed it most
The lighthouse shining on the coast
That never goes dim
When your heart is full of doubt
And you think that there's no way out
You find your faith that's been lost and shaken
You take back what's been taken
Get on your knees and dig down deep
You can do what you think is impossible
Keep on believing, don't give in
It'll come and make you whole again
It always will, it always does
Love is unstoppable
It's unstoppable
Like a river keeps on rollin'
Like a north wind blowin'
Don't it feel good knowin'
Yeah -
You find your faith that's been lost and shaken
You take back what's been taken
Get on your knees and dig down deep
You can do what you think is impossible
Keep on believing, don't give in
It'll come and make you whole again
It always will, it always does
Love is unstoppable
Love is unstoppable
So, so you made a lot of mistakes
Walked down the road a little sideways
But love, love is unstoppable
Drinks all around...
((((nc)))
That song is so true!
Look out hotties, a new bachelor is in town
Just kiddding.. wanted to make you laugh!!
Hope you doing ok Mr.
Hey, nocode, been awhile since I have checked on you.
How are those handsome boys? I remember reading S7 showing some behavioral improvement at school/afterschool care, is that still going on? How was your Easter? What's your plans for the summer, any trips planned with the boys? Definately tuck some camping in there soon!
Thank you, Irish. You did make me laugh.
I am, as usual, taking things one day at a time. In that I am okay.
I am very, very glad to see you back here posting with us again. I had been a bit worried for you.
Hello, Lwb.
The boys seem to be doing well -- even by xW's own admission (I don't think she realizes how that actually weakens her own case against me.)
Easter was good but quiet; I didn't have custody of the boys Easter weekend, but I saw them briefly at church. I can be thankful that xW is making an effort to get our S's to church at least when she has them.
I did have an interesting movie night last Friday with other stragglers from our bible study group. I say "stragglers" because the others from our group not present had families and other holiday plans to attend to, leaving us to fend for ourselves. In the end it was just me and two of the young ladies from our group watching the DVD of Slumdog Millionaire together. Strange movie, BTW. As usual we had a good time with a lot of good conversation too.
Otherwise it was, as I said, quiet.
I keep sparring with xW, however. She keeps at it occasionally, and I think this is just the way she's going to be. Once I think things have quieted down, she is going to again start something up. The other day I called her on a very blatantly petty criticism she had leveled at me, basically accusing me of horning in one her time with our S's. I hope she's gotten the sincerity of my reply to her and the message that she is going too far, finally. But I won't hold my breath.
It's funny you mentioned camping, Lwb. I have been trying to get the paperwork and other requirements in order for (a) S8 to participate in Cub Scout outdoor acivities, such as the Boy Scout Day Camp being held this summer as well as the monthly camping trips with our pack, and (b) for me to be able to participate with him where necessary/possible. In both cases we have to have our medical records in order (don't you just love our legal torte system?) And I have been trying to make sure both our physicals and our immunizations are up to date. This is going to be an annual effort now, it would seem. Unfortunately, while S8 is all caught up on all his shots, I am in arrears. It turns out the physical I took last Fall was not complete and did not cover everything. On top of that most of my vaccinations are out of date. (I can't believe it's been over nine years since I went out of country, to Brazil, which was when I last made sure I was caught up.) The most critical booster I needed, according to the Scouts, is the Tetanus vaccination, so along with a full physical they gave me the booster for Tetanus.
I have a funny (sort of) story about my visit to my doctor's today. My physician's clinic is very active in helping orient new interns, and I don't usually mind him allowing one of these interns to take the lead in any examination. I almost always see his chief PA anyway and he always seems to have an intern in tow.
Today they asked me if it would be okay for the intern to perform the exam entirely, to which I agreed. However, there turned out to be a couple of problems with this, as it turned out. First, the intern was a fairly attractive young female doctor, which is not so bad even if she's going to be poking and prodding you as they do in a normal visit. However in this case this was a full physical, including checking my prostate -- I won't say anymore, just leave it to you to figure out how discomforting it was.
Let's just say, not even my xW was ever that intimate with me!
I'm chuckling about it now. And I can tell my family that I am meeting new ladies all the time... har, har...
On the other hand, I think my xW's lawyer might be very interested in getting me into just such a compromising position as I was in today, if not worse.
nc... that is soooo funny!!! Did she seem uncomfortable??? I know you didn't
NoCode,
I wouldn't worry about your ex wife at all. There is no judge that is going to take those kid's away from you even if your wife files something. There is just no way. You sound like such a great dad. Your kiddos are lucky! I am curious though did you use the fact that she commited adultery at all through your divorce. Have you ever threatened her with that at all?
Did she seem uncomfortable??? I know you didn't
didn't seem to, but I was. What was quite disconcerting for me was that she actually seemed just a bit too matter-of-fact about it, even for an intern. But then I guess they get to see it all... from all walks... I guess she was only slightly embarrassed because of my own demonstrable embarrassment.
Or is it
I'm-bare-assed-ment? LOL.
Thanks for the words of support, hopeful.
I am curious though did you use the fact that she commited adultery at all through your divorce. Have you ever threatened her with that at all?
I'm not sure what you mean about using this against her. I
have told her in the past that I know of and have evidence of her adultery. But she continues to deny it even to my face, and even in the face of damning evidence, considering it just a matter of opinion how I characterize her actions as infidelity. And since we reside in a no-fault state, her guilt in being unfaithful would only bar her from being able to seek spousal support and has no real bearing in a custody battle. It certainly counted for naught in our D.
Since she will outright lie to my face about her adultery, her inability to so much as accept her culpability in destroying our R has made reconciliation pretty much impossible. It's not that
I won't forgive
her -- I
have,
constantly and
continually -- it's that this is too large an obstacle for her to be able to help herself or to allow herself to grow spiritually. Self-delusion and denial keeps us from finding the truth. And as Jesus said, the truth will set you free.
Sadly, my xW is stuck. Locked in a prison of her own making.
LOL about the intern!! ha ha, hey, do they have a young hot male intern? I think my annual is coming up
I also chose not the use the A card, heavens knows I had all sorts of proof, but I wasnt' about to start a nasty battle and make the Ls bill-happy. We are better off this way NoC, for there is a Judge who will judge them soon enough, and he knows it all.
Did she seem uncomfortable??? I know you didn't
The point is will she recognise you again with your trousers on!?
Or is it I'm-bare-assed-ment?
LOL!!!!!!
cough, cough
Seriously, how is everything??Do you have the boys this wkend??
LOL.
No, I do have the boys until Friday. This is the week S8 tracks back into school, starting the last term before he finishes out the second grade. I will be childless again.
Even worse is that her L talked to my L today -- xW is now definitely filing a complaint against me seeking temporary and permanent legal and physical custody of our S's.
Talk about kick a man when he's down. First the D, now this -- but it's no real surprise, of course. It's just par.
I don't really get her anymore. She can act so smarmy around people sometimes, but you can never be sure anymore if she's not just readying a knife to stick into your back. I guess the person she was before, earlier in our R when she seemed so kind, compassionate and patient towards me and everyone else, never really existed. Now she's just a hollow mask.
Oh, well. I have to just keep reminding myself that I need to only take ownership of those things I can affect change upon, not sweat all these many things I cannot change. As per the Serenity Prayer, I will do what I can. And if she manages to accomplish her worst, so be it -- she will just damage herself as much as anyone else.
But unfortunately some of that collateral damage will be made against our S's, and that will be on her soul. And no, that doesn't really make it any easier for me to realize that she will one day meet her maker and have to answer for these transgressions. She was at least at some point my W, and she is still the mother of my S's, and as such I really do not relish the thought of her losing her soul and spending the rest of eternity in damnation. But that's the road she's now on, and she would drag us all down with her if she could.
So I will continue to pray for her. And I will continue to ask Christ to show me how I can continue to forgive her, even in the face of the extreme torture she wants to inflict on all of us. Because it is not going to be easy to forgive her, and I am not going to want to do so. In fact, I am struggling with this constantly. But I must forgive her. I must.
NC,
Im so sorry. She is wicked. That is all I can say. Just one more thing to twist the screw. I don't know how someone can be so uncaring,and just plain mean. As much as I have encountered similar things with My H, I couldn't prevent him from seeing the boys, its not good for them and would hurt them in the process.
yes she is the mother of the boys, but REALLY some people should just not be parents, and if you are going to put your own flesh and blood through crap like this you don't deserve to have them.
I apologize if that statement bothers you, but as a mother, my boys are the MOST important thing, I would do anything to protect them from any emotional harm, especially if I have any control over it.
This is her quest, its got nothing to do with anything but her.
I hope your L is able to fight this to the core, its not right!!!
Ok my rant is over.. email me if you feel like it, god knows you've helped me, let me return the favor
((((((((((hugs))))))))
God will bless you, you and I know that, because nothing like forgiving those who wrong us is better to open up the door to God's blessings. Eventually you will, it took me so long to forgive x, I think I've mostly have now, thanks to God.
Fat chance she'll get to keep the kids full time, you are a good father and there is no history of abuse, they have got to give you joint custody and a decent schedule, you are in my prayers))))
Were you able to take kids to a C? I'm so so glad I take kids every 2 wks, d6's defiance and hyperactivity are getting pretty bad -- the C told me that if I don't fix that now I will have a defiant 10-year-old in the future who will be very hard to deal with. So whatever you can do for your kids do it *now* before they are set on their ways and it's too late to do/say anything
Irish, I really appreciate your kindness. I really do.
Cat, my efforts to get S8 and S4 into counseling keeps being shot down by xW. Whenever I try to schedule somethign for either of them she says they have other more important plans. She also claims that the only thing needed is for special Autism counseling for S8 -- not Asperger's or HFA, but full Autism. I don't get her -- is she trying to inflate S8's special needs so as to pump up the child support payment?
I have to vent about something:
I am concerned that xW is taking our sons kayaking (with the OM) at an age she would tell me is far too young had I been the one trying to introduce them to this sport. I am certain she knows this particularly galls me because I, not her, have a lifelong enthusiasm for paddle sports. In fact, I was the one who first introduced her to it when we were dating. I've been canoeing and kayaking since I was about eleven years old.
I agreed with her there is a safety concern with young children and paddle sports. And I had planned to start them into the sport when they were older. Now she's jumped the gun on me, and that does make me quite jealous, I must admit. Again, I feel she has stolen from me something near and dear to my heart. It would be like Eddie Van Halen watching Valerie Bertinelli taking their kid to a local run-of-the-mill music shop to learn how to play the guitar.
But the hypocrisy of xW taking up activities with our S's she has always said were beyond their ages ("too dangerous", she'd say)... that takes nerve.
nc,
When will it end with her?? It seems she just wants to "one up" you. I don't get it.
Yes I agree, they are young to be doing this sort of thing, BUT if it were you taking them I think it would be different because you are experienced in the sport. I would be very upset with this whole thing right now.
I know how much this must bother you. could you remind her how dangerous she thought it was? or would that start a fight, although anything you say at this point she twists around.
there will be many others "first" you can be part of. For the time being you can talk to your boys about it and share your experiences, so they know how cool their dad is
Her behavior is truly pathetic, pity her, a normal woman wouldn't be doing that.
We took my kids kayaking and canoeing around your S' age. I think it'll be ok really. If they have life jackets, and you stress safety. My thinking is that if you have more experience, you should try to take your sons kayaking and canoeing with you so that you can teach them all the rules of safety and help ensure their safety on trips with W. Look at that as something fun you can do with them. Do they also swim and know how to float and all that? If not, you could teach them to swim also or have them take lessons this summer? Karen
Irish, I don't really converse with her anymore (other than briefly about the kids). I guess because it will usually tend to lead to a pointless argument. I think she does want to "one up" me, to win every argument, to be seen as the better parent, and as the better person. I am sure she is rationalizing this all by saying that their father (me) is too self-centered and lazy to involve our S's in such wonderful outdoor activities -- thus leaving it all up to her, again.
The thing is I started to take the boys camping, and she insisted that they were too young. But then a couple of months later she buys a tent and goes and takes them camping herself.
When we were married I was always eyeing canoes and kayaks with plans to purchase a C2 for the family. I installed a storage rack in our car port with keeping the C2 suspended above the cars during storage. But xW kept shooting those plans down, saying we couldn't afford it and that it was too early to take our small children out in such a craft anyway. Then the minute she moves into an apartment she buys a used kayak (and OM did as well, it would seem.)
But now she's opened the flood gates, I will gladly and justifiably ignore her when I take our S's paddling or camping. I will not seek her blessing or permission ever again.
Cat, I will and do talk to my boys about the things I used to do and that we will do again. But I will just be myself around my S's.
Karen, I know they would be as safe with me as they possibly can be. I think the most important lesson when in a canoe or kayak, aside from always wearing a life jacket, is to hold onto the boat, more-so than the paddle. If you should have to make a "wet exit", unless the boat is made of aluminum or some other metal (not likely) then it will have some natural buoyancy even when capsized -- hanging onto the canoe/kayak is the first safety lesson anyone should know. In fact that is probably more important than knowing how to swim.
xW has beat me to the punch (again) in enrolling S8 in swim lessons this summer.
Side Note: Oddly, xW did thank me in an email yesterday for getting the boys Wii Music -- she is happy that S8 is now enthused to play a game that doesn't involve shooting or destruction (like Lego Star Wars). Very uncharacteristic of her to acknowledge something good I might have done.
Thanks, all.
xW has beat me to the punch (again) in enrolling S8 in swim lessons this summer.
Is that a bad thing? I guess I have a diff. perspective b/c I'm jealous you have a co-parent that actually co-parents with you. My H seems to expect me to do it all and then criticize the way I do it.
It seems like it would be nice to have a parent co-parent with you and help sign up for lessons and do stuff like that so it's not all one parent's responsibility. I know she doesn't give you input which isn't good, but there are some good things that result for your boys at least. Two parents watching over them & loving them is a good thing I think... Karen
Karen, I understand where you're coming from. And in a sense I guess it is fortunate for my S's that both of their parents want to be involved in their lives. And I have been somewhat thankful for my S's sake that xW did not abandon her children like her own mother did to her.
But unfortunately my xW wants total control over our S's lives, to the exclusion of me altogether. She believes that fathers are completely optional to raising children (which is a view she has inherited from her demented, dysfunctional mother, and might also be somewhat understandable how xW has derived this viewpoint given how xW's own father was pretty much absentee, escaping from them via the bottle.) And in this case I am far too much of a hindrance to her rather than a benefit.
That is part of the reason she is seeking full custody. The other reason is that her guilt at destroying our family is so great she has to try to arrange the situation where it appears that I am so incompetent, selfish, uncaring and all-around horrible that it justifies her treacherous behavior. She is now using the welfare of our children, as she defines it, to justify taking me out of the picture.
No, if xW were truly interested in co-parenting, that would be one thing. But where xW is taking us, our S's will be witness to their parents waging a very ugly custody battle. I think that might actually be worse.
NC,
Your boys need their father in their life, its such a delicate time for kids this age.
I know you will fight for them. I pray that the judge sees this.
She is on the path to self-destruction. I just hope she doesn't do too much damage to the boys, she's already done it to you.
Have you been doing anything for yourself lately?
Have a good day my friend
I totally agree with The Artist Formerly Known as T A L
They need you.
Any rational judge (along with a good atty fighting for you) will see through her muck.
I agree also. Its time for you to be 'selfish'. Go do something for yourself.
Hello, Irish,
I just hope she doesn't do too much damage to the boys, she's already done it to you.
I pray so fervently to God that the pain and brokenness I feel does not also become manifest in the lives of my two innocent boys. I am fortunate that I was raised in an intact home, with a sound familial foundation. It would mortify me were my S's futures be jeopardized by this tragedy, as it will certainly not be what it should be.
And now that xW is pressing forward in involving the OM more and more in their lives, I fear my S's are having their moral upbringing stunted.
Have you been doing anything for yourself lately?
I agree also. Its time for you to be 'selfish'. Go do something for yourself.
I am doing what little I can, within my dwindling financial resources. Of course spending time with my S's only partly qualifies for what you're suggesting. I have added an aerobic program to my strength training, having backed off of the strength training considerably since the gastrointestinal incident last fall. I've gained close to 15 pounds since then, and I am now trying to ease that back down to my goal weight.
The bible study group with my friends has been on hiatus for the last few weeks, and will resume next Friday. We haven't gotten together at all in quite a long time now.
But mostly I have spent a lot of time alone when I do not have my S's. Reading. Thinking. Doing housework and errands. Not really socializing as I had been, but trying to get to know my old single self once more.
I feel the need to rebegin the GAL process.
One thing that I have been looking into is finding a new dog. We lost Duncan, our Scottish Terrier, in January. He didn't live with me, staying with xW for the kids' sake, but I took care of him. I wanted to change up my lease to allow pets so I could take him in, but then he got cancer and quickly passed on. I miss him a lot.
I would love another Scottie, and as much as I love that indefinable character they exhibit I can no longer look upon one and not remember Duncan or, more importantly, Angus, Duncan's father, who was the best dog I've ever known. They were irreplaceable.
So I have looked at other breeds. Leaning heavily towards a Westie for a couple of reasons. First my S's have a children's story book about a Westie that we all love very much. Second, we had always thought a white Westie would be the perfect complement to a darkly-coated Scottie when we considered a second dog to be a companion to Duncan.
If I were not living in an apartment, I would definitely gravitate towards a Golden Retriever. Even before I fell in love with Scotties, I knew how gentle and loving and all-around great pets that the Goldens could be.
But I have to work this out as a serious financial and emotional commitment first. There are considerable expenses to consider, including increased rent and deposits, health costs, food, etc. I have to consider the well being of the animal as well. I live in an apartment, so there's no fenced-in yard -- although that would be attenuated by my commitment to exercise the dog as much as necessary. And it might be that the apartment management might turn me down, despite their stated pet-friendly stance.
In general, it may not be wise to undertake this at this time. But I will give it considerable thought. It might have to wait until next Fall, or even next year, but I do know that at some point, nor or later, I will find the right dog and it will happen.
I must relate something that came up when I picked up my S's today (beginning my week of custody). S8 was telling me about OM and how he an his mother were doing so well catching fish, and how they are kayaking so much together. (I am not asking for any of this, S8 is bubbling over with this information, and I in fact would rather the subject not have been brought up. I get a queazy feeling in my stomach to hear this stuff.)
In his discourse, S8 mentioned a particular lake that he says that xW has frequented, which is one that I myself have never seen much less visited -- it happens to be quite near to where OM's property is. S8 says that xW and OM now frequent that lake quite a lot now, which given the above is not surprising.
But S8 said that his mother took our family dog out to this lake several times, and even took pictures, supposedly. What floored me was that S8 said that the dog xW took out to said lake was not Duncan but Angus. I had to get clarification from S8 on this very important point -- he confirmed that it was Angus and not his son Duncan that xW had carried out to that lake. Duncan was the dog who had been with us through our separation and divided household. Angus, on the other hand, died about nine months before S8 was ever born. Angus was my dog long before I ever got involved with xW, who adopted her when we got married and who lived with right up until our first child was conceived.
What this means, if true, is that my xW had been frequenting OM's local lake for over nine years and she had been taking my very own dog out with her without ever telling me she was doing so -- or, more importantly, with whom.
This leads me to speculate that xW has been chummy with OM for far, far longer than she would ever care to admit, and particularly to the point of concealing from me the details of her activities. And that she would be taking my dog, my long-time companion with her is just more insult to injury.
I honestly am now questioning whether my so-called W was ever faithful to me. I am now feeling like everything about her has been a lie and a cheap facade. And it would explain why she has for so very long held so very little respect for me -- all this time I've been nothing but a trusting fool and a cuckold to her. And the whole time she tried to hold this sense of moral superiority over me -- just more lies that I fell for.
I know that I can't be without a dog. My original "baby," Ernie, died as the marriage was dying...I only went 2 months before the puppy came home (Chloe). She never lets me feel completely alone.
Good luck; please consider a rescue dog (even one from a breed-rescue group) - they might have an older dog who has a clear health record, is trained, etc.
The conversation came up with S8 when I picked him and his little brother up from the evil MIL's apartment, in the same complex as xW's. We noticed that the OM was sitting in his pickup parked in front of xW's apartment, with two kayaks in the back of the truck. The fracktard was obviously waiting xW to get home from work.
What a pair of pathetic works they are.
So that's how the convo with S8 got started. He too saw the bastard and began singing the praises for that scum's supposed fishing prowess. My son singing the OM's praises!
I hurt so bad right now. I feel so betrayed and wounded. I want to heal and move onward from this. To get past all this pain and to resume my own growth. But the wounds keep being reopened with each new revelation. Lord, please show me the balm of Gilead and let me heal my soul, for my sake and for my sons.
I am indeed looking into breed rescues as well as puppies, Donna. I am determined to find a pet with a solid health record and all the certifications (OFA, AKC, etc.) because I have had my heart wounded too much by the shortened lives of good dogs with congenital defects. I lost Angus to Cushing's Syndrome and I can't bear to ever witness an animal go through such pain ever again. It would probably kill me. It may seem selfish and unfair, but I just cannot bear otherwise -- I must find a sound, healthy dog, or not at all.
Hi NCB, I am sorry you are going through such obvious turmoil and distress, is it possible your son got confused after all he is only 8 and if both dogs were the same breed.
Try not to overthink it, what good will it actually do.
I am afraid, we can never be sure of a dogs health and longevity, but we can take steps to do all we can to ensure it.
Certain breeds are notorious for ill health, partly due to breeding!!! shortning of face so dogs can barely breath,also giving brain damage. Shortening of legs to give designer dog looks and then dogs are unable to give birth naturally-
hmmm you can see its a sore point with me!
Some of the healthiest dogs are usually mongrols-Heinz 57's we call them.
I always make sure I get hip and eye scoring and see both parents.
I guess we have to go through the endings with them and remember all the love,loyalty and enrichment they brought to our lives.
It is always worth it IMO.
Was Angus a GSD or a Boxer by any chance?
I questioned S8 about that detail, because I was incredulous that it could have been a dog my S never knew personally, having passed away before he was born. However S8 replied that he was "pretty sure" xW was talking about Angus and not Duncan.
Knowing my S and his attention to such details, I tend to believe him.
Was Angus a GSD or a Boxer by any chance?
Scottish Terrier. Cushing's has been known to run in this breed, even though reutable breeders have done a good job in getting that and vWD under control in their stock. But apparently my brother, the breeder for both my dogs, made a bit of mistake in selecting Angus' sire.
I understand what you're saying about breeders overbreeding their animals such that they introduce unfortunate side effects into their lines, all to achieve a "designer" dog. I don't believe in inbreeding or line breeding for this reason. But breeders can still take steps to improve a breed without such issues arising.
When we discovered that Angus had Cushings we had Duncan neutered -- we were not going to risk passing it on to other generations.
Well that suprised me NCD, I have only ever known German Shepherds and Boxers get Cushing, although I know a few S Terriers, I am not much into small breeds.
I take your point about breeders,but I feel that huge sums of money are now to be made breeding (not by all I know). You only have to look at the price of a pedigree pup these days.
I am a yellow Lab person myself but always go for the same lineage,purely b/c I know from a temperament point of veiw they cannot be bettered.
My old fella is on borrowed time now AND some days I am never having another b/c I know I will be devastated when this one goes, we have a special bond having gone through my "madness" with me, then I think maybe a smaller breed, quite taken with the Snauzers, or Norfolk terriers.
It seems incredulous to think what your son told you was true, not only do these spouses rob us of a future in some ways but to steal the past and have it spoiled seems to make the distrust even more and makes one feel the whole m was a sham when that is probably not the truth.
I wish you well and especially on finding a new 4 legged side kick.
nc~
I don't have time to write, but I wanted to give you a hug
((((((((nc))))))))
I wish it could be a real one.
I'll write more later when Im alone.
I am not much into small breeds.
I didn't think I would be either, to be honest. For years I had kept my eye out with the hopes of someday getting a Golden or a Lab, a larger breed, but with a Scottie only as an outside possibility (since I was impressed with what I had seen of them.)
Then my kid brother got started in breeding Scotties. And when I put up the money for one of the stud fees, I got a puppy out of the deal. That was Angus.
Scotties don't really know they're a small breed. That's why I have come to love their temperament so much. They are big dogs in little packages.
(On top of everything else, S8 insisted we watch
Marley & Me last evening. It is a good movie, especially if you've ever loved a canine. And it does have a very bittersweet ending, one that jerked out the tears from us. The pain of losing Duncan is still fresh and this movie certainly plucked at our heartstrings all the more because of that.)
I never thought I'd want another dog once Angus' line was gone with Duncan's passage. It seems so unfair that they love us so intently but live for only a fraction of our own lifetime. And as much as it hurts to watch them go, I cannot measure the love and joy they bring to us in that short time.
It will happen again. Some day. Sooner or later.
Thanks.
Yes you are right about the little dogs-lol most seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur, given the number that have a go at my old fella, who has eaten bigger bones than they are.
Luckily he is so placid but very nervous around Jack Russells.
Funny today we met 3 Irish Wolfhounds on our walk and my big boy looked positively small. They are truly gentle giants.
Each and every dog has something to offer,no we can never replace the special bond in our hearts with a particular dog, nor should we try to replace them,but the joy and fun of starting off with a new buddy makes it all worthwhile.
I have been banned from seeing Marley, when I lost my last Lab I walked around like a Panda for months. I couldn't even tak about him for ages, now my new dog is getting to the stage when decisions are coming I thank God for each good day with him.
Have you contacts for any of Duncans litter owners, maybe someone had a bitch they bred. Although there are plenty of dogs needing loving homes here I am sure it is a world wide problem.
NC, I missed your post about your S8's story (cross-posted)...please be wary not to assume too much based on this one bit of info, but do keep it tucked away in the back of your mind, should anything come along to substantiate it.
It is the third-party recollection of an 8 year old...
((hugs))
NC, I'm sorry about the news of that. I can relate, my H used to take my dog out with the OW when he was first pretending to do that instead of be with her, he'd be gone walking the dog for half a day!
I hate any of my loved ones being around her.
The thing I think though is if true about your W doing that for way longer than you once thought, I mean thank goodness your marriage is ending if that's true. There are so many good, faithful women in the world--you deserve one of them!!! (((((NC)))))) Karen
Big dogs are the best! I love when big dogs *think* they are small, lap dogs.
Here's what I think about your xW. I don't think your whole marriage was a sham. I don't think she had an affair for 9 years (even emotional for a bit). I think IF OM was in your xW's life prior to the physical affair, that he was an innocent friend (why she didn't tell you about going there puts a wrinkle in my theory though). I think that when your xW became unhappy in the marriage (read: unhappy with herself and projecting...), that OM, already in the picture as a friend, became more to her. I think it was emotional for awhile (which trust me, from experience, in many ways hurts more than a physical affair) but then turned physical.
I also believe that the affair between OW and xH started earlier, lasted longer, and was much more intense than anyone let on. I just try very hard not to dwell. It'll take time to process it, and then you will move on.
You are doing well, my paper bag friend! I am sorry you are hurting.
I forgot to say: I can vouch for Westies. We had 2 of them in the happy days of our marriage. They are very sweet, stubborn, cute dogs. So lovable. Have you looked at petfinder.com? They list a lot of shelter and rescue dogs and have most or all of the breeds on there too and you can search for whatever breed you're interested in, and by age, and size, and good with kids and stuff like that. That's how I found our current mutt (schnauzer/lab). Karen
Sorry to butt in but Karen please tellme more about this cross
I told NC that I have always been a lab person but if I have another dog I am tempted by schnauzers-so that cross sounds ideal altho I am finding it hard to visualise.
np, Naej.
I have been looking at the animals up for adoption by the Neuse River Animal Rescue (they also list on petfinder.com, Karen) -- so far I haven't seen any dogs that I feel I is grabbing me. I'll know the right one when I see them.
My problem is that I really, really want to see the dam and sire for whichever dog I settle upon -- and too many of the rescues don't even know who the sire is or even the dam, let alone be able to let me visit with them. I've adopted in the past, and they do make great pets too, but I also know it's a crap-shoot for whether they might have some congenital problem. And while I'm not ruling out a rescue, I am not going to pretend that I don't want a purebred. Purebreds need good homes too.
(((((paper-bag buddy))))
I tend to take your view on xW. I really want to believe that she was not cheating on me even before our children were ever born. Part of me needs for that to be true. I also know that xW was likely being chased by OM for a long time. She has admitted as such. I think he had been flirting with my xW ever since they've known each other -- which has been about 11 years now. I think they had a relationship that she might have tried to convince herself was totally innocent -- but he has been "investing" in my W all these years hoping for a payoff. xW admitted that he had been pursuing her. And when xW decided she wanted to jettison me from my own family, she decided to let the slime bag catch her.
So I want to believe that at least up until the Fall of 2006, when xW decided to bring the evil MIL into our home to begin to oust me from it, xW and OM were not having an A, at least not full-blown, perhaps borderline EA.
But by the same token their R, for two such co-workers, was certainly improper and highly unethical.
And yes, it is wise not to dwell on such things. It is just a bit more difficult to take when your own children are saying these things, and that is in the midst of talking effervescently positive about "Mr. OM".
Thanks for your wisdom.
Hi NC,very valid point especially as you have young children to consider.
My problem is that I really, really want to see the dam and sire for whichever dog I settle upon
I love my dog, naej, I had heard wonderful things about Schnauzers and Labs and so I thought a mix sounded great, and after my Westies didn't want to replace them by getting another Westie. My dog is half black Lab though and I think many of those are hunting dogs from what I understand. He is very hyper and needs lots of exercise. We give him lots of walks and I take him jogging whenever I get the chance. I'd recommend black Labs only if you're very active. But he is a very sweet dog! I've been told golden Labs are much calmer, and esp. English labs though. Karen
Karen, thanks I have replied on your thread, so NC can have his thread back,otherwise he might charge me rent!
Hope all is well in your world NC well as good as you can make it under the circumstances.
Take care.
nc~ hope you are doing ok today. Have you made a decision about the dog?
otherwise he might charge me rent!
. Mi thread es su thread.
nc~ hope you are doing ok today. Have you made a decision about the dog?
Not yet, Irish. I talked to a breeder of Golden Retrievers and came to the semi-conclusion that that breed might be unhappy living in an apartment, even if I exercise the dog regularly. Maybe some day in the not too distant future when I can afford a house with a large yard to buy or lease.
So I am pretty much back to looking at Westies. I have been in email conversations with one breeder who is an officer in the area breed club.
I'm also giving some thought to Welsh Corgies too.
All in all, I'm still looking, making inquiries and seeking referrals.
Thanks for asking.
NC,
My DD20 has a sheltie. She has the sweetest disposition. She's about 20 pounds and looks like a minature collie. She is absolute gorgeous. She stays indoors most of the time and seems to do fine. She loves attention but is not needy.
I hope you are doing okay.
What's the latest on your brother and his wife?
I must admit, I haven't been keeping up with everyone lately on here like I should. Between DD17's prom, graduation, and my end of year conferences, I've been so busy. It doesn't mean I don't think of you all often though.
Hugs, Yoyo
Hmmmm not sure about Corgis, they are notorious "nippers" of ankles and not so good with young children.
They also moult twice a year.
Sturdy and extremely loyal though, have a tendency to herd similar to collies as well.
Good training and firm handling can overcome these tendencies so I am told.
The Queen loves hers!
Hello, Yoyo,
My aunt had a Sheltie. It was a sweet dog. Smart too. Lots of grooming, however, moreso than most other breeds.
My brother and his wife are still making their plans to formally separate this Summer, all the while trying to justify each of their reasons for doing so. SIL is the one who comes up with the most rationalizations. My brother just says he's not going to fight it. I find their getting along so well through all this to be quite unnerving, creepy even.
I love them both dearly, but they're p*ssing me off to no end as well. Bone-headed foolishness. I tell my mom that the primary trigger for their decisions is MLC. There's nothing else it could be at this point.
And while I sympathize with SIL on those points she raises about her disagreement with my brother on matters of religion (she wants to renew her faith while he has become increasingly strident in his agnosticism, oddly) she doesn't have much of a leg to stand on by blaming their disagreement on Christianity for ending their M when Christianity itself just does not support her in this. In other words, yes, they do have a parting of the ways on Christianity, but using that as a justification for splitting is just not scriptural -- it's hypocritical. Plus all her other arguments come from secular psychobabble at direct odds with Godly wisdom.
I have been lurking on your thread. I know you've had your own hands full. I think your H has just become too ingrained in his foolishness; he's all too accustomed to having his way. I am proud of you for not allowing him to get away with it anymore.
I hear that about all herding dogs. Just as I hear that terriers are prone to biting and are not usually good with children, but that's obviously a blanket statement.
The particular "bad" traits of any breed usually manifest whenever they are not brought up with the right discipline. A Corgi or other such dog who nips at any human's heels has a problem with dominance and doesn't know their place in the family "pack". I do try to take great care to help socialize my dogs so they understand their place in the hierarchy of our household (people, including children,
always take precedence), as that makes for a much happier pet.
I suspect that there's also a lot of "small dog syndrome" in many of these smaller breeds too.
Hi NC, all valid points, I guess its what you are attracted to you that counts plus suitability for your lifestyle, which sad to say not all pet owners realise.
My G/parents kept corgis so maybe my ankle scarring days just came to the fore.
If it's got 4 legs I usually love it, throw in big brown eyes and I am putty! what can I say.
Hey, NC, what's going on? Did you get a puppy yet? How's it going? I hope well. Karen
Hi, Karen,
No, not yet. I seem to be taking the long approach to this. I've spoken to a couple of breeders with one of the local kennel clubs. The line of questions one of them in particular asked me has me looking even more introspectively. I am not surprised and even expect to be grilled by any good, conscientious breeder, so it was all good.
The one breeder (of Westies in this case) was concerned about my living in an apartment, my unfortunate necessity of keeping a dog penned up for several hours during the day, and not having a fenced yard for allowing a Westie or other such breed the freedom to vent their considerable energy. It has me thinking that I really need to consider finding either another apartment or a house to rent that offers a fenced area to let a dog go off-lead. And though I know this would be a long range goal of mine anyway, I am now thinking that perhaps I should get that part of my life settled sooner rather than later if I want to adopt a new four-legged family member.
Either way, I have decided to take my time and be patient.
The positive thing is that the one breeder with the most questions and concerns was pleased to hear of my care and concern in making this move to adopt a new dog, and she was encouraged enough to still want to meet me and my sons this summer some time prior to her next litter (she has very limited breedings and chooses carefully from potential homes for placement of her pups.) I am pleased she would still keep us in mind, even given my less than ideal living arrangements at present.
I seem to be settling on a West Highland White more than any other breed. But my S8 has suddenly gotten fixated on Corgis -- he saw one and was smitten. But I think any puppy of any breed would steal his heart, so he may not be so set on one breed or another as much as he thinks.
My boss at work has also given me a referral for the breeder of her two Westies. I'm gathering all this info and making inquiries, and biding my time till I find the best-fit puppy at the most opportune moment.
---
S8 had his bridging ceremony today for cub scouts -- he graduated from a Wolf cub to a Bear cub. He does seem to be thrilled about that.
S4 got all emotional and temperamental however. He has already been trying his best to be difficult all day long, and then he started making a huge fuss at his brother's ceremony this afternoon. Made a big scene. He said he was upset with his brother for becoming a bear because he doesn't like bears, he likes wolves so much more.
Uuugh -- crazy kid. I determined he was really trying to garner attention from the crowd, and he certainly got it.
Oh, I forgot to mention the big thing about xW that has cropped up in the last week. She's changing jobs. After some 14 - 15 years with her current employer she is finally jumping ship to take up with another home health firm.
Why, I ask. Why now? I have been asking her to do this for years and years. Every time she would complain about her hours or her schedule, every time she would complain about the assignments, and every time she would complain about the management or express the anguish of dealing with certain personalities, I would recommend that she leave the current home health firm and go to any of the many others. I had even met several different folks working for one of the other competing firms and they were each telling me how much in demand new hires were for their companies.
Each time she wouldn't listen.
I told her about one guy I met in '07 (right before the bomb) who told me to tell her to send them her resume. And after the bomb I begged her to leave her company so our M could have a fighting chance, but apparently she would never leave that company, even with all its ills, as long as OM was working there.
And so I can guess what finally spurred xW to finally make the jump is that the OM has already made the move to the same new employer already himself... otherwise I am certain she never would have done so herself.
She is so pathetic...
She starts her new position on Monday. I am wondering how much in payment she is
really going to be making now.
The other dynamic is that she has also changed her cell phone provider, in conjunction with the new employer. If any of you may recall, she took our joint wireless plan and put it in her name alone when I confronted her, soon after the bomb, about the $900+ phone charges to her OM. She kept my phone on the plan she had commandeered, under the family plan -- meaning my additional phone was just another $10 per month which I would pay her for. Her mother is on that same plan for an additional $10/month. (And to my never-ending consternation she had the OM on yet another phone for $10/month on our same "family" plan.
)
So this means that the phone number I have used for many years now as my main contact number, including for emergencies, is slated to be ended. I would
like to keep this number and port it to a new service. Fortunately xW seems to be willing to wait on killing the old account and let me make other arrangements when I can muster it, but I have a feeling she won't let it be for long. If she gets a wild, hostile whim, for example -- which could happen at any moment without warning -- she might screw me over. I hope not, but I can no longer count on anything where she is concerned. And for some reason she seems to honestly think it is her privilege and right to
punish me for any and every perceived wrong she dreams up. That is the MIL's mode of thinking.
Yeah, you should get your own phone plan asap I think. It's ridiculous how they treat you when you're just the $10 addon. I wanted to buy a replacement a couple months ago, and they wouldn't let me b/c H was 2 weeks late on his payment, and then called to get his permission for the replacement, and then said I'd have to come in with him to get the phone when he eventually did pay his bill. Even I realized time to get my own phone plan! Plus, you know your W can check online on your calls and stuff; I didn't have to worry about that, but eventually I will start dating and creepy to have him looking at that.
I do think dogs like to have either a fenced yard or if you're willing to walk them a few times a day, near a park or something. When I was looking for a place, there were lots of town homes that had fenced yards, kind of in between a house and an apt. I think. Nice. If I hadn't found this place in the country, I was going to rent a townhouse with fenced yard. It was in a better location too, closer to work and all. But I do really like the new house!
Oh, another thought I had was wonder if your W's switching jobs so she can keep an eye on the OM, prob. knows he's likely to cheat.
Karen
Hope your doing ok today ... I like what Karen said about W keeping an eye on OM.. that's is probably true.
She never seems to amaze me with the idiotic things she does.
(((((((((hugs)))))))))))
Karen, Irish,
I hadn't thought of it that way, but I should have. I think you might very well be right. I wouldn't put it past my xW for her ulterior motive in changing ships after all these other years is to keep following the OM. Her deep-seated insecurities, despite all pretenses to the contrary, always do seem to come to the fore. And so she probably realizes she can't really trust that fat, slimy snake-in-the grass, at least on a subconscious level if nothing else.
Thanks for that observation.
Tonight marked the 19th anniversary of my first date with now xW. How things change...
I sent her a short email acknowledging the date, saying that I was trying to be thankful for all the good and all the bad that has transpired since then.
No, I don't really expect a reply. The person I knew then and would eventually marry is now dead and gone -- it definitely feels that way. I just felt the need to acknowledge this event, as if to convince myself it wasn't just some vague dream or something...
I'm just a sentimental old fool after all, it would seem.
nc~
You are certainly not a fool... sentimental, but no fool. You are a sweet man that has been dealt a really rough hand.
At this juncture she is not worthy of you. Any woman would be lucky to have you in her life. It just goes to show you what kind of man you are and how much you have changed from the beginning of this.
19 years is a long time, it will be our 18year wedding anniversary on the 1st of June..
Have a good day my friend.
Hi NC,
Just stopping by to say hello. I too agree with the new phone plan.
nc~ Bumping you up ^
What do you have planned this weekend? Do something fun for yourself...
Hope your ok, update when you can.
((((hugs)))
Hello, Irish, Yoyo,
I don't have my S's this weekend. And we cancelled our Bible study dinner and get-together.
I did go see a movie this evening, Terminator: Salvation, ... alone, unfortunately. So much for GAL tonight. I'll try better the next three days.
I talked to one of my old neighbors today. It just so happens that his wife was approached by my xW to ask her to write an affidavit on her behalf, saying how wonderful a parent that xW was since she's known her. What bothers me is that xW is making it sound like she is the one who has to defend her ability to parent our S's. She's still making it sound like I am the one who is attacking the other.
Good Lord, will she stop at nothing to get what she wants?
I am really beginning to wonder where all this malice could possibly come from. I cannot begin to reconcile the image I have of the kind and loving woman I married and who bore my children from this cold, deceitful and absolutely shameless tramp that I am now embarrassed to say I know, let alone to have made my bride. Where is the soul of the person I knew and loved? Can she ever be found again? And how on earth can one square the degree of venom she now directs at me with anything I could have done to deserve it? I don't get it.
Nc~ how was the movie? Its ok to go to a movie alone, lots of people do it.
as far as your ex goes, does she really think that she has to go to this extremes to get the judge to see her way? Is that what her intentions are? You can do exactly what she is doing, so I don't understand her logic.
She is definately trying to deflect the matter of her infidelity to make it all about you and how you are attacking her. When in fact she is the one who has destroyed any hope of putting the family back together.
There is no way you can understand her at this point, she is way too far gone. And know you don't deserve it, and I don't get it either.
Try and have a good weekend.
(((((hugs)))
I have the same kind of thing too. A friend yesterday was saying maybe it's guilt that causes them to act that way? It must mess with your head: having As, breaking up a family, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, so I guess they come up with weird ways to survive the guilt or whatever. It's kind of nice that we don't have that guilt; we won't have any regrets or what could have beens later.
I know we didn't db our marriages, although DB saved me I think, but in some way seeing those here that have; I mean it's kind of easier in a way to not have to work on our marriages, don't you think? I think a lot of our WAS are kind of messed-up people and it will be nice to be able to have Rs in the future with healthier people. Karen
Irish, the movie was good, but for me a bit too predictable. Lots and lots of action. It proved a good escape...
Karen, I felt like I did try to DB, especially in the first year of our separation. But my xW is one of those who is DB-proof. She has somehow had her conscious surgically removed. She simply used all the gestures and acts of good faith on my part to consolidate her plans.
Oh, every once in a while I might have said or done something along the DB guidelines that might have resulted in her slightly altering or delaying her course, but it was never very long before she set herself right back on track again. I have never been alone with xW ever since our S, so I never have gotten any one-on-one time with her, to get her real thoughts in person and to look her straight in the eyes. Email, yes, but it is not the same. xW now only surrounds herself with "yes" people and co-conspirators. And her mother is the biggest pro-divorce nazi you will ever meet -- extreme anti-DB. I didn't have a chance.
Like I said, some people are just DB-proof. There wasn't really much I could do, but I gave it the best effort possible.
And, yes, Karen, I am certain that each of us will someday come to the point where our hearts are completely healed, through God's grace, and we will be able to enjoy R's with people far more healthy than our ex's. I know for me this will be a long road to healing, but I accept it.
One thing is certain, I have decided I am no longer going to act to protect xW's reputation. Other than all of you, my mother, my brothers and my DivorceCare cohorts, not to mention my IC, I have divulged the truth about xW to no one, family or friend, that we know in common. While I will not actively malign my xW, neither will I continue to act like I don't know what her motives have really been all along. I will no longer be evasive for the sake of the reputation of my S's mother -- not when she has never withheld her own grievances against me, as trumped up and false as they are, with teachers, neighbors and other folks. I've been too kind to her in that regard.
NC, I know you DB'd your butt off, as did I. No regrets, and that's good. You know you did your best. But yes, some are DB-proof, imo they are many of them dysfunctional in some or many ways.
I like I think isn't it lwb's response: she says something like WAH wanted to be living a single life or something like that--is that what you say lwb? People know what that means, without you trashing her or anything. I'm planning on using that one myself if you don't mind!
Karen
I hope everyone has had a good Memorial Day weekend. Mine has been quiet. Very quiet.
Quiet is mostly good. Except for snotty remarks from xW (accused me of "interrogating" S8 on the phone just because I asked about his day. I always ask them how their day went when I make my evening call to my S's, but she decided to take offense at it all of a sudden)-- Otherwise, my time has been peaceful. Alone, but peaceful.
I took the opportunity today to go through some boxes of old papers. Old statements for cellular and regular telephone service, medical bills, etc. I ran across a bunch of stuff that xW had produced, lots and lots of credit bureau reports. These appeared to have been produced quarterly by each of the three big credit scoring firms, Experian, TransUnion, Equifax. But what caught my eye was that these were produced to check the credit scoring not for me or for both my xW and myself together, but for xW alone. And these went back to 2005.
What's the significance of that, you ask? It means that my then W was exceedingly concerned about her own personal credit scoring at least as far back as September of 2005. Not our mutual credit score, but just her own. And she was obsessed with her own financial health at least a year and a half prior to our separation.
All these disagreements and friction over finances... she was not concerned for our financial stability -- she was mostly (if not only) concerned about her ability, even then, for being able to stand on her own, without me. It leads me to thinking, again, that she had been planning to leave me for quite a long time before she would admit.
Am I reading too much into this? Possibly, but I don't think so.
When xW and I first started dating, she had a terrible, awful credit rating due to her poor, poor judgement. She was still involved with her then boyfriend (with whom she had originally told me she had broken up) because of bad car loans they were both upside down on. She was a fiscal mess.
By the time we got engaged, however, she had pretty much gotten most of that debt taken care of, but she had a ruined credit rating none-the-less. I have been torturing myself for some time now, post-bomb, whether the real reason she found me so attractive back then was mostly because of my clean credit record and my steady employment history. It certainly would fit the MO of her mother.
And I also have all her pay-stubs for the months leading up to the bomb. And seeing how very little income she actually brought in in those first six months, which I know already but seeing the hard numbers staring me in the face, while remembering how long she was away from home supposedly working... I feel like such a d*mn fool and a cuckold.
Why am I torturing myself like this? Dwelling on the past and reliving the depth of these injuries she's inflicted on us?
I continue to pray, to talk with the Lord, asking him to help me heal. To lead me through this, for however long it takes, but to get it past me. And in these times He is kind and merciful through reminding me of my S's -- that whatever comes, I must do this for S8 and S4.
(((((nc)))))
i know what you mean, because that is a real hang up of mine. I tend to dwell on things and pick them apart, and this eventually does drive me nuts. I have to remind myself that its over and one with and dwelling on it won't change anything, only to make me sad and angry all over again.
Im mad at my H for putting me through all of it, these emotion seem to really take hold of me. You don't know how you will ever get passed it, and I know we all will, but its time that is a killer, the pain does slowly go away, but I don't ever think completely.
If you were to tell me 18 years ago that I would be going through this, I would have said, "I'd leave his butt at the door" but how things change...
Hang in there my friend.
Hi, Irish,
I think you, at least, have a good chance at saving your M, making all your efforts and difficulties worth it.
I, on the other hand, never really had a chance -- though I could not have possibly foreseen that before hand.
Worse still, now that she has gotten the freedom she so demanded, instead of easing up or letting go of her hatred, my ex seems to be getting progressively worse.
To illustrate, the latest missive came last night via email, following my nightly phone conversation with my S's:
S8 needs some non-fiction books for next week for many of the homework questions & he can't use the same number two weeks in a row.
Thanks
Also. Talking to S8 for 30 min when he is supposed to be doing his homework is VERY distracting. If you want to help your son you will wait until at least 8 on homework nights & keep it short. I'm sure you are ranting right now in your head about how it's your right to talk to your son as long as you want whenever you want. Which is true if all you care about is your rights & not S8's well-being. We each have a right to half our sons, so should we just slice them in half?
XW is just being insanely petty, again, as usual. In retrospect I figure she just does not like the fact that I and my sons had a very good and enjoyable call; S8 was especially enthusiastic in telling me about what went on during his day. It takes a little bit to warm him up and then he's just overflowing with words.
XW is obviously jealous that her sons could have any rapport with me. She makes it very clear here and in all her words and deeds that she feels she should not have to share them.
What makes this even more egregious is that I had concluded my call with my sons -- and not two minutes later they had called me back so she could tell me she about S8's new homework assignment, but then decided to send an email instead. She then let S8 continue his conversation with me. S8 and I discussed his school assignments in more detail -- and we again had a good exchange.
S8 would have talked forever, had I let him. And to xW's credit, I will admit that I began to wonder if S8 was beginning to use our conversation to stall going back to completing his nightly homework.
But the point of all this is that xW continues to criticize me for trying to have a conversation with my S's. I mentioned that she accused me of "interrogating" S8 this past weekend.
It's funny. It bothers me, yes, but not like it would have at one time. I see her pettiness and I am no longer inclined to engage her in her drama. I do feel the need to say
something to her, to let her know she is crossing the line. But for her sake I am beginning to feel she's no longer worth the effort. These last couple of years have taught me how barren of cheese her tunnel really his. It makes her to be so pathetic and pitiful.
And that makes me sad for all of us -- me, her and our children.
But it is what it is. And keeping the Serenity Prayer in mind, I realize that her behavior is something to which I have neither control nor responsibility.
nc~
They updated DB so now we know who is on or not, pretty cool..
I cannot believe how unhinged she becomes on something so ridiculous. Why does she feel the need to constantly make everything into a friggin event. His homework will get done, he's only 8 for goodness sake GET A GRIP!!
Ok, seriously you have to feel somewhat of relief that you do not have to deal with her obnocious,rude and just plain stupid remarks on a daily basis. I know this is not the person you married, but this is the person she has become, and certainly not someone that you could share your life with, trouble is, is you cannot get completely away from it because of your boys. Thats hard to balance. But I suspect that as time goes on it will get easier for you to handle, and one day her attitude and comments will be a distant memory on how they bothered you and you will just laugh to yourself.
one day when your boys are older, they will know how hard you tried, and will respect you for it.
Hope you have some good plans for the wkend.
Also. Talking to S8 for 30 min when he is supposed to be doing his homework is VERY distracting. If you want to help your son you will wait until at least 8 on homework nights & keep it short. I'm sure you are ranting right now in your head about how it's your right to talk to your son as long as you want whenever you want. Which is true if all you care about is your rights & not S8's well-being. We each have a right to half our sons, so should we just slice them in half?
Ok, she used to be like 95% crazy and now she sounds full-fledged 100% crazy. Wow! My reaction to that would be something like: Good point. I think calling after S8's homework time is a good idea. I'll be sure to call around 8 pm to allow him time for that.
Plus, ignore the short comment and talk as long as your sons want.
I just think it would be fun for you to shake her up like that. Doing 180s to mess with her already almost unhinged mind. I know I have some evil in me.
Karen
Karen,
I think I know now why I always appeared to be so non-communicative with xW when we were married. It wasn't really passive-aggressiveness, as she accuses me of, at least not at first. Rather it was the paralysis in knowing that, with her, there was never
any right answer -- any and every possible response was going to be taken wrong.
As such, then yes, Irish, I am glad I don't have to put up with that insanity all the time anymore.
Hope you have some good plans for the wkend.
Yes, I do, and I have my two S's too. First, we're going to the grand opening of the new Lego Store here in our area. S8 is a Lego maniac, and he's been anticipating this for months now.
We also have a birthday party to attend, for the son of one of my DivorceCare buddies.
And Sunday is our church's outdoor celebration of Pentecost, a big annual event. This will be the last service our minister will attend before he leaves us and moves out of state, taking up the helm of a church in Jackson, Mississippi (making this a very small world indeed.) That's going to be a bittersweet event for all of us.
I have several other things too. I was asked by my boss to have a number of project-related tasks completed this weekend, before Monday. That's going to mean some late nights working from home Saturday and Sunday. Meanwhile I've got to shepherd S8 along in completing his "term paper" this week. That's going to keep us very busy.
Too much to do and so very little time... but I always check in on my peeps here in DB.
<journaling>
I've had one helluva day today. I was busier than the proverbial one-legged man...
Last night, xW had dropped the bombshell that she was going out of town to Florida Monday and Tuesday, so she wouldn't be available to take care of S4 while S8 and I go to his cub scout meeting. Something about training for her new job. Whatever. Yeah, I realize this likely means she and OM are going together out of state, business or not. She's no longer my concern in that regard, as long as my S's are not affected. So S4 and I will make do.
And then xW left a voicemail at work today, at about a quarter past 4 PM. She said her mother -- the evil MIL -- was going out of town this weekend and would not be back on Monday herself. xW said this meant that I was on my own for providing S4 daycare for that day, which is a work day for me.xW suggested I see if the local hourly daycare place would have an opening -- an expensive proposition. I have been so p-o'ed over this, because:
(1) Why such freaking short notice?
(2) xW chose her ne're-do-well mother to pretend to be a daycare solution for S4, but apparently her availability and reliability is being proven deficient.
(3) How long has she known about these changes in plans?
So not only am I left high and dry for cub scouts on Monday, but it looks like for the entire day.
My boss was somewhat understanding, and even a little angry on my behalf for xW's last minute curve ball, but I will have to take some PTO time to work from home.
... and as if to add insult to injury, I got word today from my atty that xW's complaint was filed yesterday and my L's office was delivered a copy. xW is now officially suing me for temporary and full custody, with the intent of granting me only "visitation" every other weekend. The first hearing is August 14.
Frak it.
Nc~
You've got to be kidding me!! what is HER PROBLEM????
Its ok to drop a bomb like that and give you no warning, but still is seeking temporary and full custody??
I don't get her? She knows you won't take it out on the boys, so she is taking full advantage of you. Thats bs!
I hope this judge sees right through her, and please document this case, how there was short notice and about the evil mil. you need to have all of this written down so you can use it in court.
I don't know how anyone could not go insane with dealing with her.I can't beleive her work only gave her notice yesterday that this was happening.. i don't believe it. She intentionally told you late to see if you would crap out on the boys to use that against you. i don't like thinking that way, but considering her track record, this is exactly what she is up to.
oh nc.. I wish for you some peace, it seems that all she does these days is stirs the pot. you don't need this crap, your trying to get on with your life.
she need desperatley to be put in her place.
busy weekend for you, that's good. Have fun at the lego event, My kids would like that too, have fun!
NC,
Wow, she is such a contraction, isn't she? She wants you to have the boy's at "HER" convenience. Sounds like a matter of child support payments. Is she seeking more with the custody change? Uggggggghhhhhhh!
Hugs, Yoyo
You've got to be kidding me!!
I reeeaaally wish I were.
This all seems so extremely unreal to me, like a Twilight Zone episode. If I stop and think very much about the degree to which her attitude and values have changed, it would rip my heart out all over again, not to mention drive me insane.
And you certainly won't believe me who suddenly shows up while I, S8 and S4 are waiting for S8's school bus at the bus stop this morning.
Yes, the xW.
She seemed quite perturbed and I was more than a bit surprised, as I would have thought she would have been on her way to FL already.
She asked me was I taking a day off from work. I replied that I am (wanting to scream "I HAD TO!"), and then I asked her, "Shouldn't you be on your way to Florida or something?" xW says she is not leaving 'til this afternoon.
Wonderful.
xW then told me it was
not necessary for me to have taken off, as her mother decided to not only come back early, but cancelled her trip altogether. xW then said I should have called her or the evil MIL to find out if she was really going to be out of town after all. She goes on to blame
me for not initiating communication with her about this -- as if it is
my sole responsibility to check in with her to find out changes with her and her mother's schedules!
I could feel my blood pressure rising, and the other parents standing around waiting with their own kids at the bus stop could likely tell how agitated we were getting with each other. Especially when she snidely asked me whether I had a telephone or not, so as to be able to communicate with and find out these things.
Part of me wanted to let her have the full piece of my mind, but I did not want her to ruin my day any more than she already had. I really wish she had not decided to come insinuate herself on our peaceful morning -- well, it was at least particularly pleasant up to that moment she arrived.
At about that point I told xW our sons to hug their mother goodbye and to wish her a safe flight -- basically ushering her to move herself along and go away. But she persisted, and we again traded barbed responses to each other. She told me I could go on to work and she'd take S4 to her evil mother's for the remainder of the day. But I had
already made the effort to make last minute arrangements to have the day off and work from home -- why on earth, having already spent the costly political capitol with my employer, would I waste it so she can further destroy my day?
She is actually trying to make the case that I need not have taken a day off and it's somehow my fault for not communicating. Her oft refrain is that I am terrible at communicating and for that reason the failure of our M is my fault -- but I am having the real truth of the matter demonstrated and underscored right before me yet again -- it obviously wasn't all me, or even mostly me.
So xW is obviously being extremely dense and down-right stupid -- if she tells me she or her mother is not going to be available as late as the Friday afternoon before the given Monday is to occur, I am going to be hard-pressed to arrange to be off
that much in advance -- let alone waiting the Sunday evening right before! But that is exactly what she is suggesting. And even then, she thinks I am supposed to check in with her to find out
her schedule! Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!!!
And after the bus finally arrives and takes S8 off, she again makes comment to me. I've had enough of her cr*p at this point and I take S4 by the hand to leave. She is still yammering at me, and I stopped in my tracks, looked her in the face and said "Goodbye, have a safe flight -- this conversation is over."
I really don't know how I kept a lid on it. But even with the other parents around I could hear our voice levels rising. I started to tell her to go have a "good time" with her boyfriend down in sunny Florida, but I am at the point now that I could care less. All I want is peace for my S's sake, but she won't allow even that.
Again, I find myself asking myself the question
Was I really married to that woman? How could I have ever been in love with someone that could really be so awful, selfish and heartless? How? Not in my worst nightmares could I have imagined this much pain and confusion. Truth is faaaaar stranger than fiction.
Of course, that's ridiculous. She should have emailed you her changes to let you know. Common courtesy. I know we've discussed this but not for a while, and I really think that's that projection thing. She has weaknesses and projects them on to you. Like my H telling me I'm controlling???
I don't really understand it, but it does some like some people really do that.
H and I have been communicating by email 99% of the time and that works out so much better. If she starts harassing/haranguing you I think you should suggest she email you re: any issues that relate to the kids. Most of the time they don't seem to be! And then walk off or something and leave her standing there like a psycho if she keeps it up. I think she loves to egg you on, so she can say, see I had to have an A and Divorce, it's all his fault. Blaming instead of taking responsibility. I think that's going to cause problems for her long-term. It's so easy to see how dysfunctional she is and feel empathy, but I know when they're causing so much grief it's hard to do that. Sometimes impossible. Karen
since the D papers aren't done yet make sure you have a clause that says all/any trips that might interfere with kids care are known to you 2wks in advance, in a way that she can't pull that giant ball of BS she just pulled on you (argh!!!! what in the world is wrong with her? you were supposed to check on her plans??? crazy!!)
Think of any loophole and cover it, think of all the craziness she's putting you through and provide protection against it. And she is the one suing you for custody? she is totally insane, my prayers your way that you are able to deal with this maniac and come out winning.
since the D papers aren't done yet...
Cat, the D is already final, as of April 3rd. xW went ahead and filed after pulling out of negotiations to work out a property settlement and custody agreement.
Now, any time I mention her transgressing the spirit of our de facto agreement or mention her bad faith in working out these recurring differences, she gets all snide and tells me I have only myself to blame for not capitulating to her terms and signing her biased version of the separation agreement.
For too long she "gas-lighted" me into taking the blame for much of our M's failure, but thankfully I have had enough sense about me to refuse to accept her unfair versions of a separation and custody agreement. But now she is apparently going to try to make my life absolutely miserable for not giving her complete sway.
As for the disagreement we had at the bus stop yesterday: She sent me a follow-up email later in the day. She took the tone of saying she was "sorry" if I was confused and unable to understand what she meant. She claimed again that she was merely posing a
possible change in plans, not an actuality. She's full of cr*p, as usual.
So she's now backpedaling and trying to make it sound like I am some idiot for actually taking her serious. Perhaps I am.
*groan* sounds like she is regressing, turning into a troublesome teenager, jeez!
Because of the kids you will have to have constant contact, but do try to keep it as short as possible, less fodder for her, though she seems to make a mess out of the simplest things. Like talking to a 5yr old, from now on just confirm with her in a short email of some other "business" trip or something like so comes up.
So sorry you have to deal with such a toxic person, Ncode, patience your way)))
Hello, Cat,
That's my thoughts exactly. I've said it before -- I feel like I'm dealing with a petulant and nasty 14-year old girl. Not a mature rational woman at all.
I've traded barbs with the ex via email. She's pushing and pushing. And making snide remarks. I've let her get to my buttons. But I don't care to hold back much anymore. She sent another missive to me this morning castigating me for being annoyed by her callous actions. In reply, I let her have it. Among other things, I told her I was on to her b-s.
I am fighting to keep a lid on it. Continually trying to remind myself that not only is she beyond hope, but she's not even worth my efforts, even if I could effect things, which I can't.
I scheduled another IC session for this weekend -- it's been a couple of months now.
I also am trying to speak with my L. Trying to gear up for the mediation hearing.
I know it's hard NOT to call them on their BS, but for your sanity just tell her you wont even open any emails unless it's about the kids, not to bother sending anything else, she isnt' worth loosing your peace over. Prayers your way, hope this madness gets settled with mediation))))))
I remember one time as we were doing mediation how x would send me all this nasty txts, I couldnt' handle it so I had a good friend read them and delete them so I wouldnt' be tempted to answer back...after him calling many time he panicked and thought I was gearing up for something as he stopped and later actually apologized. Dont' give her a chance to talk trash.
I've traded barbs with the ex via email. She's pushing and pushing. And making snide remarks. I've let her get to my buttons. But I don't care to hold back much anymore. She sent another missive to me this morning castigating me for being annoyed by her callous actions. In reply, I let her have it. Among other things, I told her I was on to her b-s.
I think she likes to push your buttons and you should just try to avoid her. I freq. now just delete H's emails when they're a rant or complaint about something. I delete it and don't respond. And you know, all the waste of time and energy and lost PMA when you get in these email battles, I don't think are worth it. I went through months of that, but when I finally figured out I was just making the sitch worse by responding; I think that really helped. I wonder how many times, maybe most of the time, H prob. cools off and realizes he was being jerky or whatever. He never emails back the next day or whatever.
I am fighting to keep a lid on it. Continually trying to remind myself that not only is she beyond hope, but she's not even worth my efforts, even if I could effect things, which I can't.
OK, this is maybe cheesy, but I think What Would Jesus Do? Would he say anyone is beyond hope or not worth our efforts? I pray for my H every day that he'll start to walk a better path and become happier and healthier. I do this b/c my kids will be better off, and it's the right thing to do I think. And it helps me release my anger taking this to the Lord. I ask him to help me with my anger and forgiveness and be more loving.
I scheduled another IC session for this weekend -- it's been a couple of months now.
I'm glad; I need to do that too and gear up for mediation! Mine's the 29th when's yours? Karen
Hi, Cat, Hi, Karen,
Dont' give her a chance to talk trash.
Yes, I agree. I need to go back to being dark. It's better that way.
I am fighting to keep a lid on it. Continually trying to remind myself that not only is she beyond hope, but she's not even worth my efforts, even if I could effect things, which I can't.
OK, this is maybe cheesy, but I think What Would Jesus Do? Would he say anyone is beyond hope or not worth our efforts? I pray for my H every day that he'll start to walk a better path and become happier and healthier. I do this b/c my kids will be better off, and it's the right thing to do I think. And it helps me release my anger taking this to the Lord. I ask him to help me with my anger and forgiveness and be more loving.
Not cheesy at all, Karen. You're right -- xW is not beyond
all hope. I guess it was hyperbole on my part -- what I meant was that she is beyond hope for anything
I might say or do. I have to remind myself that it has been proven time and again that she will take everything I say or do wrong. She chooses to see only the worst in anything I say or do.
And, again,
for my sake, she is not worth
my efforts. She has succeeded in totally destroying any chance we might ever have had at even a cordially friendly relationship. She has made it clear she will not have it, and there is nothing I can do about any degree of reconciliation. Even a lukewarm detente seems out of the question.
Miracles do happen, yes. Bridges sometimes do get rebuilt even after being totally razed to the ground, but realistically, no, I can't pin my hopes on that ever happening, not really. As insane and inconceivable as it seems to me, the woman who once swore undying love for me has now chosen to be my arch-enemy. I have to accept the hard facts and move on with my life.
As such I have to remember to give this over to God. I need to do the one thing left for me which is to continue pray for her, which I do.
Jesus did tell us to pray for our enemies. I just never dreamed that xW ever would become that enemy He speaks of.
I'm glad; I need to do that too and gear up for mediation! Mine's the 29th when's yours?
We are scheduled for a "Custody/Visitation Orientation" session this Thursday, June 11. The suit was filed just a week ago, on the 28th. That was pretty fast. The actual custody hearing is scheduled for August 15 -- I'm not sure if that is when the actual mediation order is handed out or if that is the post-mediation hearing. I'm not sure yet -- I have a meeting wth my atty. on Monday, so I'll find out then.
NC~ I haven't forgotten about you... have some stuff going on here...
Anyways, I just am dumbfounded everytime you post, because I can't get over how really sick she is.
You have to go dark, it is the only way. Unless it is absoultely necessary to talk to her about the boys, don't talk to her. She only dishes out hateful venom and words, its not worth your time or energy anymore.
I hope your meeting goes well and the judge is able to see through her destruction and what she is trying to do. it makes me so mad!
Try and enjoy your wkend, Im going to pop on to my stitch and update.
Take care of yourself.. (((hugs))
NC,
She does sound like the class bully. Maybe you do need to ignore her as much as possible. They say that MLCers act like spoiled teenagers, I think she has regressed to the "terrible two's". Hang in there and just continue to do what's right for you and your two wonderful boys.
Hugs, Yoyo
Hi, Irish,
I did have a fairly quiet weekend. Almost too quiet, since I did not have my boys with me. I went to a "pool party" --- really just a gathering of a few friends around a swimming pool, sunbathing in the mostly cloudy weather and casually talking, but primarily just sitting quietly and casually together on lounge chairs. It was mostly to catch up with each other and to just enjoy being in each others' company.
And I went to church. All in all it was very uneventful, but that never seems to stop me from obsessing internally over my situation. I need to relax internally as well as externally. My mind is too often a seething cauldron of thoughts and emotions. Praying helps a lot with that.
In any event, my weekend was a piece of cake compared to what you had to go through.
I talked to my L on Monday. She explained that the orientation scheduled for today (!) is just that. It's a three-hour meeting including other sets of parents to discuss the process of Custody/Visitation mediation. By the end of this we will have our actual custody mediation scheduled and a mediator assigned to our case.
My L has come to the same conclusion that I already have, that given xW's methodical approach to what I call her "plan for Happiness", the mediation will have no sway on her. xW is too pre-determined and close-minded to alter her course or compromise one inch. Thus, since I have no room left in which to compromise, we both figure she is still going to press on with a very contentious court battle.
So between now and the middle of next month I need to secure the cooperation of several of my friends, co-workers and neighbors to write and notarize affidavits in support of my character and my ability to parent my sons. Several people have already offered even without my asking. But it is still a lot to ask of people.
I hate what xW is doing to us.
Hi, Yoyo,
I really hope what I am doing is best for my S's. I feel that it is, but it may turn out to be pyrrhic.
I have tried to contact S8's teacher, to schedule a one-on-one conference with her. I wanted to talk to her about S8 and how this growing battle bteen his parents might be affecting his behavior. Academically he is doing okay, often very well. But sometimes his behavior in class is not where it needs to be.
More importantly I wanted to ascertain whether my xW has been contacting her to try to win her support to her cause. I fear that xW has subtly communicated to teachers and staff over these last two years that any of S8's misconduct and poor performance is directly attributable to his father's behavior. I have witnessed first-hand xW's words and actions to do just this very thing with S8's first grade teacher. I am certain with all of the classroom functions that xW has volunteered for, she has continued to cultivate that notion with everyone she encounters.
S8's current teacher has not responded to any of my emails, not like she used to. And she has not responded to my latest one asking for a conference.
I guess my next step is to go to the school counselor. I am now trying to draft a letter to her to seek her guidance on how best to proceed. I have two goals. First to help lessen the impact all of this might have on S8. Second to determine if my Xw is trying to garner support from the teachers and staff for her legal action to remove custody from me, S8's father.
I don't really know what it is I should be doing. I am struggling to figure out what actions I can take to avert xW's hateful actions. Much as part of me wants to scream to the world about her crimes against me and our family, I also want to curb my tongue and to not malign this person who is still my S's mother. I love my S's more than I value my own personal outcome. While I seek to lessen the injury she continues to deliver to myself, I am more concerned that the impact to my S's, both short-term and long-term, be minimized.
I am trying.
nc~
I hate what she is doing to you guys also. But I know you will come out of this ok and as long as the boys have you they will be ok too. I have no doubt that you will have numerous friends who will say the very best about you, you are a great father and there is no denying that!
Your in my thoughts and I hope that you will come out stronger because of all you have been through.
There is someone out there for everyone, I do believe that
Nc~ Just checking on you. I hope your doing ok.
((((hugs))))
Hi, Irish,
I'm here. Thanks so much for checking up on me.
I'm just feeling a bit melancholy today. For the last couple of days.
Two years ago today, June 15, marks the day I discovered the horrible truth about my then wife, that I was being betrayed and that she was not the faithful, honest person she had always purported herself to be. I found out my wife did not love me and even hated me, even wishing me harm.
...
The orientation last Thursday was uneventful. We saw a video about mediation along with many other former couples. We scheduled our mediation session for June 25. And we had a nice lecture about how mediation was our last chance before we get into the hair-ball of litigation, in which neither party gets what they really want and everybody loses, especially the kids.
Do I think it had any impact on swaying xW from her insane course of action that she is dragging us along? No, not likely.
As if to underscore that feeling, I later got the following mind-blowingly insane email from her, just hours after we left the courthouse apparently:
NCB,
We had an agreement in (former hired mediator's) office a year ago. I gave you more than a judge will. Your refusal to sign any separation agreement has cost your children $16,000. Why are you doing this? Why are you hurting them like this?
xW
I just forwarded this insane drivel to my L, but I did not reply to it. What can one argue with a crazy person after all, huh?
...
I have now begun an email campaign, writing to
select members of family, friends, neighbors and mutual acquaintances -- to clear the air of all the misconceptions that xW has cultivated about our marriage, our separation, our divorce and now our custody battle. I have decided that, after trying to help
protect her reputation for these last two years, I won't be silent any longer.
If she is going to try to harm me and our kids to merely justify her own shallow ends, then I have to set the record straight. For S8 and S4's sake.
nc~
Im sorry for your pain. It seems like a nightmare you can't wake up from, though it's like it happend yesterday.
She will continue to try and justify what she is doing and go to all lengths to do so, that's why you MUST set it straight, I totally agree with you. No more playing the nice guy, because she certainly has raised the bar on that one.
Im sure she thinks you will not do this, so she will get the rude awakening that she sooooo deserves.
Try and have a better day, I think it may be the moon, im feeling the same as you.
Sorry, NC. My guess would be that your W is freaking out a little as a control-freak maybe she is realizing she's now losing control of the sitch if she hasn't realized this before, which she at least thinks she has had for the past 2 years. I think they have this fantasy that life is going to be so perfect and happy and I don't think it's that for your W (or any of them prob.) Karen
(((((NC))))),
Amazing... What a sad, pathetic woman she is. Sounds like she is so miserable that she has to try to make everyone else that way also. Unreal.... Hmmmmmm...wonder what happened to "The grass is always greener on the other side"?
Thinking of you dear friend,
Yoyo
Thanks, Irish, Karen, Yoyo,
None of this would bother me were it not for the boys we have to share between us. I understand that tolerating her insanity is part of this package in being S8 and S4's co-parent. I accept that reality, why can't she?
Moreover, to then blame me for the mounting expense of the lawsuit she has filed against me, as if I had twisted her arm into doing this?!?
She's either totally insane or is trying to drive me there ...or both.
Oh, and a little bird told me last night that xW and the OM are now making their R more open, calling themselves now "a couple" and "boyfriend-girlfriend". At the same time they'er also attemtping to make everyone believe this was a recent event -- that they have only just now "found" each other after their respective divorces.
Such duplicity and deceit. Who can really trust these people?
This is WHY you need to set everything straight. Enough of her little dream world, its really digusting. And even the people that think she just started the relationship i would think would STILL be suprised because you guys only divorced in April for goodness sake...a little soon doncha think????
How could they trust eachother, when they are cheaters themselves??
I think she is insane, maybe trying to drive you there, but don't let her. Remember this is her messed up way of thinking and you will not be a part of it.
((((hugs)))
bleah, disgusting. For your own sanity, the less you think of their R the better, dont' ask, don't let people tell you, pull the STOP signs on your mind, her behavior is disgraceful, but the sooner you get her out of your mind the better it will be.
NC,
My H and I aren't even divorced and he is taking her out to very public places. He even went with her to son's ballgame at our local city park. He has taken her around people that know both of us. This was before I even filed for divorce.
Sad thing is that society has become so immune to infidelity and divorce I don't think they give it a second thought. What happened to the sanctity of marriage and family values? Has marriage and the family as we know it become disposable and a thing of the past? Sad.....
How could they trust each other, when they are cheaters themselves?
My very wise DD21 told me recently, "He cheated with her, he will cheat on her." Very sad that my daughter at such a young age has such a jaded view on relationships. At this time in her life she has huge doubts about ever being married and it lasting. DD lives with and works part time for her dad and is around them daily. He's even had the nerve to have the OW there when DD was home!
It's things like this that makes me realize that I'm doing the right thing by getting out of the marriage. My H is setting such a poor example for our daughters that I've got to do it.
You always set the right example for your boys, keep being strong.
Hello, Irish,
I am trying to carry out my resolve to set the record straight but without it becoming an act of vengeance. That's not easy to do, and certainly to some that is how it might seem -- in fact, to hear xW talk about it, just the very fact that I even dare to defend myself from her attacks is seen as horribly mean and unfair on my part.
I've got to just tell her "tough cookies" and move on.
I have decided that I will no longer "play dumb" like I used to, before the D, in order to protect xW's reputation, even though she is still my S's mother -- especially now that I know she has definitely not shown any such discretion herself, even before the bomb.
Still, I must continue to ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit, so as to suppress these inclinations to act vindictively.
No, instead, the line I need to adhere to must be that which Paul wrote to the Ephesians about, where he advised "speaking the truth in love."
Hi, Cat,
Yes, that's the trick, isn't it? To get them out of your mind even when you have to deal with them for the sake of the kids.
It bears repeating, it might have been easier to have dealt with the death of a spouse than to have to deal with the constant conflict with a belligerent, betraying one. I feel like my real W has died but her re-animated, demon-possessed corpse is still around wreaking as much havoc on the living as it can.
Gruesome thought, I know.
Hello, Yoyo,
My ex was also taking OM around her "new" circle of friends and co-conspirators before our D was even filed. Actually, she was taking that scumbag around her family and my own children before she even had dropped the bomb. (I was completely oblivious to all of this at the time. I was such a dupe.)
I am sorry that your H is such a fool -- but it is most assuredly his loss.
I am glad that your DD's have a good, upstanding role model in you.
<journaling>
Well, today I had to take a sick day, for S4. Tuesday evneing when I picked him up, xW's mother (the crazed MIL) reported that he had thrown up all over her apartment. (I think I could tell she was very relieved I was taking him off her hands at that point.)
Sure enough, on the way back to my place, he upchucked all over my back seat. I mean, I couldn't believe he still had that much in him. S8 was overreacting and exclaiming at the deluge of vomit, demanding I put the windows down.
I got them home and inside. S4 had no fever, was actually only slightly cool to touch. He kind of refused to accept that he was sick, in fact, and when I told him to just sip his water, he ignored me and drank it down. And he had begun to work on eating a little chicken soup when he decided to stand up and barf all over the kitchen.
I still cannot believe how much a four-year old can hold in their stomach. My kitchen floor and adjoining carpet were covered.
The "pink stuff" I gave him came up too, not even having much of a chance to properly coat his stomach. And whenever I tried to give him more to replace what he lost, he would wretch and throw up some more liquid (where does it come from?)
I got him stable and he was ultimately able to at least keep the pink stuff down. He slept through the night without incident too, which I thank God for that. Still, I was up until the wee hours of the night, cleaning everything -- my car, the car seats, the floors, the carpet, all the clothes, his rain jacket, etc. etc. I was exhausted -- and feeling quite ill myself.
So the next day, I kept S4 home and took a sick day. By noon S4 was feeling like eating and was able to keep everything down. It was apparently one of those 24-hour stomach viruses -- he must have picked that up at the hourly daycare place that the MIL asked me to drop him off at on Monday while she went to her doctor's appointment. (Gee, thanks, MIL.)
But today he seems a-okay. Thank goodness.
xW took the opportunity again yesterday to try to micromanage my care of S4 with him being sick. Such a control-freak she is. I managed to calmly rebuff her, letting her know I had matters well in hand.
---
I am really beginning to think the worst in the situation with S8's (second grade) teacher. Maybe my still raw wounds of betrayal are making me overly wary than necessary, but both of my requests to seek a meeting with S8's teacher have gone unanswered. I am suspecting that my exW may be trying to win her over to support her case against me. I would hope that such a move on exW's part would backfire, but I cannot be certain of that.
Perhaps I am being paranoid. But then I was physically present and witnessed first-hand when exW shed her crocodile-tears and told S8's first grade teacher that his misconduct and poor behaviors were due to my behaviors and how I supposedly mistreated exW. I recall that vividly -- and so I realize that there really is justifiable cause for concern that exW has been trying to co-opt the support of S8's teachers.
I have since written a letter to the school counselor, asking for a meeting as well. It has been a week since I sent that via email, and the silence is beginning to bother me.
I hope this merely means they are choosing to stay out of this legal battle, which is understandable and fine by me, but I would think I would get some kind of response.
Sorry about S4. Glad it sounds like he's feeling better now! Good for you just brushing off the control freakness of your W.
Thanks for the laugh about your W's reanimated corpse, funny. You have to laugh sometimes. Yeah, she's a total control freak. I always think (mine is too ya know) that imagine how hard it is to deal with them for short periods of time--they have to live with themselves 24/7. I'd go crazy--oh, that's right they already have!
Ok, I know I drive you crazy with book recommendations, but I'm reading a really good one now. It's called
When the Vow Breaks: A survival and recovery guide for Christians facing divorce by Joseph Kniskern. Some of it doesn't apply for you as it goes through the divorce process, but the emotional stuff I think is something we'll be dealing with for a while unfortunately. They have it on amazon if you want to check out the table of contents and first couple pages, or maybe you can check it out at your library or ILL or something....
Also, I don't think you're being paranoid at all. H likes to tell people (the testing evaluator and D9's child psych) that she doesn't have any meltdowns with him, she's just perfect; I guess the implication being it's all me and my fault. But S15 has told me several times that she has just as many meltdowns with H. I mean I guess he's either in total denial about D9 or wants to make me look bad, don't know, but how I deal with it is I'm just honest and upfront with everyone. I think people know the truth esp. as they get to know you better. Everyone tells me H seems creepy so I think the dishonesty kind of becomes apparent to people esp. after they get to know him. Maybe I'm naive, but I think it's all going to work out. We'll see I guess... Karen
Hi, Karen,
I think I've run across that book before, but I can't recall whether I actually checked it out or not from the library.
I got a nasty email from xW this morning. She is asking why I am trying to "poison" her family and friends against her, claimed that she would "never" do such a thing against me (oh, reeeaaally?), blah, blah, blah.
Yep, mediation is looking like it will be the joke I suspected.
I suspect mine will be too!!! So I hope you didn't respond and just hit the delete button when she sent that???? She just loves to start fights with you. Crazy!!! Why would someone want to spend so much time messing with someone like that??? I've never understood that.
Did you hear my good news? The tester/evaluator of my kids seems to just recommend public school mostly for D9 and she's very pro-public school and thinks kids can only get social skills through public school, and she is recommending she only go 1-2 hours a day in a special ed classroom or regular classroom with aide. I think that totally kills H's plans for them to attend full-time, and that's his expert he hired.
Yours is going to work out too; they may want the world but they're not going to get it I don't think... Karen
Delete? No.
Filed away for posterity? Yes.
I did indeed hear your good news, Karen. That is great! We knew you were right. A WAS will try to make anything selfish they do or believe sound like it's in everyone else's best interests. They have a "What's good for me is good for everyone" sort of psychosis.
And thanks for your words of encouragement, dear lady. I greatly appreciate your always cheerful, sunny disposition.
((((hugs)))) and high-fives.
I have been pondering the last 24 hours, stewing over this one thought:
Why should a dad have to negotiate and haggle just to get a few hours of time with their own children on Father's Day?
Happy Father's Day, NC!!! You shouldn't! I think you should have unlimited all-day access on Father's Day, just like your W should have the same for Mother's Day. Didn't they write that into your D papers or will you have an opportunity to do that in the future (you're still working out final details aren't you)??? Karen
Happy Father's Day! We are all rooting for you.
kat
((((((nc)))))) You shouldn't!!!! Happy father's Day my dear friend!
s0rry NC, happy fathers day to a good father)))
Thanks for the sentiments, my friends. I had a decent Father's Day after all.
A couple of weeks ago xW had asked me about Father's Day since it would fall on her week of custody. I told her that I expected that regardless of the custody schedule, Father's Day would always belong to me and Mother's Day would always belong to her. xW got snippy (as usual) and said that that would have been the arrangement IF I had signed the Separation Agreement, but because I had not then if I wanted to have a day during her week I needed to give up a day from my own. She went further to say that she would "give" me Father's Day if I gave her one of my holidays this year -- specifically Halloween, since that falls on my weeks of custody.
I was a bit taken back and p-o'ed at her so I gave no answer. We left that unresolved.
Yesterday I was beginning to resign myself to the fact that my S's were not going to be able to spend any time with their father on the one day so intended. Then xW sent an email early in the morning that reiterated her question of what I wanted to do for this day. She suggested that either (a) I trade the entire day for Halloween (again) or (b) take the boys out for lunch.
I was quite perturbed but not surprised (strangely) how I was being asked to barter for what should be my right as a father. Never mind the trade she offered was a crappy deal where I give up a major holiday for a holiday that for her has absolutely no real meaning anyway, it's just another Sunday to her. The very idea that I am now being forced to haggle for time with my children is offensive to me. On the other hand, I guess I had better get used to it because this Thursday's mediation session is going to be just more of the same.
I told xW that I would take the boys to lunch.
So, after church service I met xW and our S's in the parking lot. xW announced that the boys had come to a decision about where to take me for my Father's Day dinner. They wanted to take me to Bullwinkle's (think Chucky Cheese's with better food and better cartoon characters.) My thought was that this was xW's way to get me to fork out a little money to buy the boys an overpriced pizza meal, but I didn't care. I even extended the offer to Xw to join us, my treat, but she (as expected) declined, saying she had to go shopping instead. (She had turned down my offer to take her and the boys out to dinner for Mother's Day too. So no surprises.) Again, I did not care either way, but it struck me that all she wanted was for someone to babysit the kids for her, otherwise she couldn't care less. Whatever.
Sadly, we discovered only when we got there that Bullwinkle's was shut down and had gone out of business. That was disappointing, as I was looking forward to kicking back, taking in a decent meal, watching an animatronic show with my S's, and watching as they played all the games and activities. Now this plan was out.
So thinking fast, I took them to Outback's for a very good meal, and then from there to Putt-Putt Fun Center. We had a very good time, so much so the boys each had a meltdown when it came time to leave. I can say that I was not happy for our time together to come to an end either.
I hope everyone had a great day as well.
((((nc))))... I can't tell you how utterly *pi**ed* i am at this woman and how fargin selfish she is.
This is NOT about HER!! Why must she constantly use those boys as leverage. Im sorry but I know in the past you have said she is a good mother, but seriously, I don't buy that anymore. As much as my H might do things to me etc. I would never ever use my boys has a pawn, of ANY kind. I haven't. I have been in situations to do just that, but I know how much they love their father and how much he loves them, and its just not right to get them wrapped up in our issues.
You are their father, case closed. This should have been a no-brainer. But to try and negotiate Halloween for Father's day is RIDICULOUS!!
Im proud of the way you handled it, but I don't know how you do it. Someone needs to put her in her place... I will volunteer!!!
You are a great father NC~ keep doing what your doing, your boys will realize later in life how hard you worked to keep things together, and will hopefully realize what she did to tear it apart.
Thinking of you!
Wow! Your W is such a witch! I bet if/when Mother's Day falls on your week she would NEVER agree to trade another holiday for that. Horrible. One good thing is that hopefully when you finish the mediation stuff or at some point you'll be able to get in written form, stuff like Father's Day kids should be with you, and Mother's Day with their mom and no giving up of another holiday or whatever. Crazy!!! And why is she helping your boys decide where to take you for Father's Day. My H decides that (although he usually picks a place the kids like too), and I wouldn't think of deciding or help deciding that. I can't help thinking a year or 2 from now, you will be so much better off with her mostly out of your life!!!
I'm glad you finally were able to have a good Father's Day. That's so sweet that both your boys had meltdowns, my D9 does that too. It's a nice way to look at it, that they're having so much fun they have a hard time giving it up. (((((NC)))))
Irish,
I really appreciate your offer. You're not the only person who has offered to confront xW for what she is doing. My mother in particular has been so riled up over xW's actions that she has practically begged me several different times to let her put xW in her place. (I get my own hot-blooded Scots-Irish confrontational disposition from her and her side of the family.) She can be her own force of nature if (when) she lets herself do so.
If I thought you or anyone in my family could in any way positively influence xW, I'd turn you loose to do so. But my xW has proven how intractable and immovable a WAS can be once they have convinced themselves that their spouse is the chief-most enemy of their "happiness". Anything I or anyone on my "side" might say to her, even in the spirit of good will and understanding, has been proven time and time again to just be more fodder for xW twisting to fit into her reality distortion field. She will not be moved, not by me, not by family or friends, not by total strangers or clinical professionals.
Instead I instruct my mother and others wanting to help our situation to pray to God, for only He can change a person's heart -- but because of Free Will it is still up to xW to allow Him into her heart to be able to accomplish this change. Unfortunately, most of us do not give into God's grace until we have hit absolute rock bottom. Until then we bystanders must pray and be patient for the possibility that a lost soul will rectify their situation through the Lord's help.
Thus it's up to xW.
In the mean time I am fighting hard to not be demoralized by her psychological warfare tactics and the collateral damage this might be having on our S's.
xW has surrounded herself with sycophants, co-conspirators, enablers and other morally ignorant supporters. The very reason for their existence within her life is to support her self-interests and nothing more -- so to them she can do no wrong. I suspect that xW is likely rationalizing, in her own warped way, that she was actually being magnanimous and very conciliatory by allowing me to spend time with our S's on one of her days. I think she is that warped in her mindset, and her supporters play right along with that thinking.
So that too would indicate that xW is beyond reproach.
Nc~ Your right, and its unlikely that she will change anytime soon.
How is it going with the letters? When do you have to go back to court/mediation with her?
Hi, Karen, I somehow missed your post.
That's so sweet that both your boys had meltdowns, my D9 does that too. It's a nice way to look at it, that they're having so much fun they have a hard time giving it up.
Well, as much as I'd like to think they threw tantrums on my account, they really just did not want all the fun with the games and activities to end. They're just little kids after all, and who can blame them for wanting it to continue just a little longer still. Right?
How is it going with the letters? When do you have to go back to court/mediation with her?
I've already gotten one letter from a good friend and co-worker. She knows how much a dote on my two boys, and since she has a teenage son with Asperger's she has been a mentor of mine in dealing with S8.
I've also gotten a agreement from S8's den leader in cub scouts. But I'm still awaiting his statement.
As for our former neighbors, I am getting concerned. I think xW has been back to the neighborhood shoring up her story. It might be getting a little too confusing for some of our contacts. I would guess this all must seem like the weeks leading up to November elections, with two parents campaigning for the votes of mutual acquaintances. Funny and sad, but true.
The mediation session is on Thursday. I'm taking the day off -- so far it looks like all of my vacation time and all of my money is going to be sucked into this black hole of a custody battle.
Good luck today NC.. I'll be thinking of you. Remember that you are a good father and deserve to be with your children just as much as she does.
(((((((hugs)))))))
Thank you, Irish, I appreciate your support.
((((*hugs*))))
Well, the mediation is over and now the court battle begins. As I have told another friend of mine, that big sucking sound you hear is our finances being drained away by the upcoming legal expenses. While I am gravely disappointed that xW in the end decided to drag us all into a costly lose-lose tragedy, I am not surprised, at all.
We had a very perceptive mediator who kept us both on track and focused on the matter at hand. We each got to state our positions on what xW is asking a court to award her in the way of custody. xW wants to now reduce my time with our S's to just every other weekend only, and with half of the twelve track-out weeks during the school year. Her excuse is that she believes that S8 needs more structure to succeed academically -- structure which she thinks only she can provide, totally discrediting my contributions to our S's lives
The mediator had us each consider a way that we might be able to compromise on the parenting schedule, but in the end neither of us could find middle ground. xW wants what she wants, and I can't allow her to cripple my ability to parent our S's. I told them I am not less competent to raise my S's than xW is.
The sad thing is that the mediator could see that the reason for xW filing this lawsuit had less to do with parenting schedules or for improving the "structure" that S8 needs but more to do with the differences each parent has in coming to agreement for the children's sake. Thus it's a process issue rather than a real schedule dispute. So the mediator tried to coax her into thinking more along the lines of preserving the current schedule and try to come up with other ways we could arbitrate any dispute between us when they occur. She said a judge might very require a parenting coordinator.
In the end, especially when it came to light that xW is also seeking full legal custody as well as "primary" physical custody, it was apparent that xW is really seeking full control over S8 and S4's lives. She wants to have the courts bless her ability to make all the decisions for our S's without any "interference" from me (not that she'll get it however.)
So the mediator then asked me if there was any space I could give. I had already told her that we are already doing the best we can with the current schedule and that I was making do with only having half the time with our S's. Any less and I don't think I can be an effective parent. So she knew that I really could not accept being a father just every other weekend -- and even with having some of the twelve track-out weeks during the year, that would mean I would still miss out on so much of their lives. She knew I had no real room to wriggle, but she posed the question anyway. In the end I had to say no.
So we're still scheduled for a temporary custody hearing on August 14. This is going to be very costly and will destroy every last measure of good will we might have been able to muster, even for our S's sake. I am mourning for S8 and S4 now; they're the real victims here.
...
Oh, another thing -- xW and I exchanged a few words as we walked back to the parking decks outside the courthouse. She is still blaming me for the failure of our marriage and what this is doing to our S's. She continues to deny and deny again that she was ever involved romantically with her adulterous boyfriend during our marriage. She knows I have the evidence and yet she still tries to act like she's totally innocent and that I am insane for suggesting otherwise. "Gaslighting" me, as usual.
But we all know that is just par for this WAW. Sadly.
BTW, I also wanted to tell all my DB friends that I really appreciate each and every one of you for your support.
I forgot to mention something... while I was relating to all of you about the things said in the mediation -- in general, I forgot about the one thing that upset me greatly.
xW mentioned at one point how she now feared for her own safety and for our sons. This is serious. She said that I had contacted a mutual friend and it had scared the both of them to think that maybe I was going off the deep end. I told xW to read the letter I wrote to this friend. I told the mediator that all I had done was to merely ask this family friend, who professed to have a deep Christian faith, to pray for xW as we go through this litigious conflict. I said that xW should know me better than to spread the lie that I was in any way a violent person -- at no time in all our history had I ever shown myself to be violent let alone a threat to anyone's health.
Fortunately, the mediator didn't want either of us to get side-tracked. She said that each of us really knows where we may have crossed a line and if so we need to stop it.
I am fuming now over how xW has sought to portray me as a religious fanatic capable of causing her and our children harm. I am quite certain she's just feigning this fear she expressed just to get under my skin -- and I guess she has: so now I am the one who is scared because she will now say and do anything to get the upper hand. She should be ashamed.
As for the family friend... well, the moral of the story is not to involve such people even if it is to ask them to pray for xW. I am disheartened to discover that some people's profession of faith is but a thin veneer, it would seem.
This court battle is going to cost us both heavily in more ways than one as we each discover just who our real friends are one by one. This is going to be very ugly.
I am so saddened about your situation. For someone to profess to have her children's interest at heart and yet in reality is trying to cut you out of their lives...it is simply shameful. I see a parent that is pretty much hot air about what a great Dad he is(my own ex) and I "see" someone on these boards that feels the true meaning of being a parent.
I think you are correct, the true colors of many of your friends will come out and don't be surprised about the ones that have been bullied into siding with her. I hope the judge is just and can see clearly because I don't think she can bully him or her. I hope for the best in your situation and will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
hugs, kat
I know it's horrible; I'll be all bummed after my mediation Monday I'm sure, but right now I'm feeling like I'm a runner almost at the finish line of a marathon or something. I'm really going to be glad to get over all this, and settle into almost-normal life hopefully. Do you have some of that yet?
Ok, that "friend" sucks, and doesn't sound like a good friend to you anyway. So now you don't have to waste time on them anymore. One thing I've seen is that most people are really supportive of me in my sitch (which I've always thought is a lot like yours), and my H has a couple of immature, self-centered losers who are supportive of him. Woo hoo for him. Personally, if someone is friends with your W, you should probably steer well clear of them. Sad, but true...Karen
Thanks for that, Kat,
I get the feeling that xW actually buys into her own b-s to a large degree -- not entirely, mind you, but deluding herself just enough that she is able to come off as credible to those who around her, who don't bother to really think about her excuses or gather more evidence for themselves.
As for how much her story will influence a judge, who knows?
Hi, Karen,
In answer to your question, despite all of my GAL activities, I still feel like my life has been placed on hold until I can get past this verdict. I feel like a Sword of Damocles is still hanging precariously over my head.
But I do dream that some day I will have all of this limbo behind me.
I picked up my S's yesterday evening -- the start of another week of parenting them. We had a blast at the movies last night -- we went to see the new Transformers movie, the one blockbuster we had been anticipating above all the others. S8 and S4 became huge Transformer fans when we watched the first movie two summers ago. And we've been waiting for months and months to see this sequel -- ever since the rumors started forming that it was in production.
I had been sweating all week that xW was going to try to preempt me by taking the boys to see this movie. She has taken the opportunity several times to steal my thunder and to co-opt things I have been personally sharing with our S's -- camping, fishing, canoeing and kayaking, Legos and other specific amusements and interests. So, I was concerned she would pull another coup this week with the opening of this movie -- especially on the heals of our confrontation on Thursday. I am thankful she did not.
Still, it didn't keep her from telling our S's that she would indeed take them to see this same movie again at a new drive-in theatre that opened up an hour north of here. I tried to suppress my reaction when I started to bristle at S8's recounting to me of how the OM was telling his mother about this new drive-in and would take them all to see it soon. Grrrrrr.
I am nonetheless relieved. I don't know what I would have done had she actually preempted me -- she knows that I could not in any way have taken that particular action as anything more than a call to Mutually-Assured Destruction. I am glad we did not "go there."
My Dear Friend...
Im so glad that you had a good time at the movies!! Im wondering if my boys would like it. They didn't see the first one, but maybe on a big screen it would be cool...Im equally glad that she didn't try to take that away from you, although I wouldn't have been suprised if she had.
s6 had a birthday party to go to today, so H stayed with S3, it was a suprise, because usually if he's not working he's too tired to do anything else. Yup join the club.
Just got my "dukes of Hazzard" dvd's in the mail second season. Even though I have usually no time to watch it, I wil make some time.
Hope you have a good week. Have fun and take care of yourself.
I'd try the first Transformer movie on them first, to see if they like it before attempting the second one. (It's on DVD.)
I thought the original movie was very much over-the-top with non-stop action, and a thrill a minute -- but this sequel is more of the same only amped up far, far above it, thus it doesn't really give you a chance to catch your breath for the entire 2 1/2 hours.
The big caveat to me is that some things were added to the latest movie that detract from it being entirely appropriate for all audiences, if you know what i mean. There's a lot of off-color, extremely sophomoric humor that doesn't really add to the story. And there's more than a few "choice" words that caused me to wince for the sake of my two little pairs of ears sitting next to me. Thankfully a lot of the innuendo goes above the heads of my two, but I wish most of that would have been left on the cutting room floor.
Other than those quibbles, I found the movie very entertaining. Very Hollywood. Very Big-budget extravaganza.
It's good to hear that H helped out. I'm sure your S3 really enjoyed having some one-on-one time with his father. They need that so very much.
"Dukes of Hazard", huh? I never really caught too many episodes of that series -- I guess i was busy watching other shows, like the original "Battlestar Galactica", in those days.
Thanks and big hugs to all of you.
that movie was 1hr too long!! and honestly, did the robots have to curse so much?? yup, over the top is the right word.
I agree, Cat, they could have taken out an hour and still had a great movie -- better even if it didn't have the swearing.
I got a short, terse request from xW last night. She apparently has a half day off on Friday and now wants to pick the kids up early, at noon time. I sent her back a response that I would think about it.
After all the cr*p she's dumped on me when I have simply asked for an early transfer of custody for a special occasion (I am recalling April 3 very distinctly now), she has a lot of nerve to ask me to do the same. And then to have suffered the pain and indignity of having to haggle with her for time with our S's on Father's Day, of all days, ... !!!
It's like she doesn't think I too might actually value my time with our S's.
But I really don't want to act as pettily as she has. It's not that I really care now that she is treated fairly or not; it's that for my own conscience and my own spiritual health I need to practice humility and magnanimity. I can't save her but I have to do as Christ bids me, and it is for my sake and for the sake of my S's that I not act out of vindictiveness like she does. Otherwise, I would quickly tell her where to shove her request.
I just don't like feeling like a patsy when I do act kindly towards her -- she always tries to make me regret it later.
Like I said, though, I am still thinking about it.
gotcha, I see what you are saying NC.... I know you'll decide what's best.
]I got a short, terse request from xW last night. She apparently has a half day off on Friday and now wants to pick the kids up early, at noon time.
I would've been tempted to email back something like Are ya kidding me???
I agree with the whole not being petty thing. One of the most important reasons for that is to be a good role model for the kids.
I just don't like feeling like a patsy when I do act kindly towards her -- she always tries to make me regret it later.
I think you can still be kind though and be strong at the same time. I still haven't completely figured it out myself but I'm doing better at that.
I think it's wise to think about it and not just knee-jerk respond in haste. One of the reasons I like email b/c it can give you thinking time more than in-person. Karen
nc, you know darn well if you DO say know, you'll get her rath.. BUT I do think it was wise that to answer her right away.
Its amazing to me how inconsiderate (and that's being nice) she is towards you, and then expects you to cater to whatever she needs/wants, like everything is fine!!
Ya know it is ok to say no. At this point, what if you had something going on, she doesn't know you don't so I wouldn't worry about her thinking your being vindictive or mean, she already thinks that (im sorry for that, but she does already have this in her head) You want as much time with the boys as you can get, and THAT my friend is what this is about, NOT her.
when you do have the boys it is your time period.
I might sound harsh, but its not about her feelings, or what she wants, its about continuing to build your relationship with your boys.
Anyways, Yes we are going to try and watch the first movie and see what they think of it. We are really looking forward to the new Ice Age movie and of course Harry Potter (which im desperately waiting for !!) I actually have only read the first book and im now on the second one, but ive seen every movie about 50 times!
Have a good day, and take care!
nc.. I didn't even SEE your post about the mediation... What a vile person she has become.
Its unfortunate that there isn't more Fathers out there like you that are willing to take their sons/daughters more often and be more of a constant in their lives. And it is also unfortunate that the courts can be biased.. i hope that you get a decent judge that sees things your way.
Any way you slice this its sad. But What I always like to believe is "what comes around goes around"... she will be judged one day my friend, trust me.
You are a father that your boys will be proud of.
(((((((hugs)))))
And it is also unfortunate that the courts can be biased.. i hope that you get a decent judge that sees things your way.
What I think they should do, I don't think they do though, is look at prior history before separation/divorce. If the parents spent 50/50 with the kids then it should stay about that. In my case it was 90/10 the past 15 years so I think it should stay about that maybe 80/20 or something. Big changes in that I think are most likely due to financial or revenge using the kids as a pawn or some motive like that not love/interest of the kids.... Karen
((((((NC)))))
Your xw is so mean spirited and selfish. You just keep being the wonderful person you are.
Yoyo
(((Hugs))) to all of you.
I got a response from xW, and she seems to be backing off of asking for an early exchange of the kids on Friday. She was thinking I did not have the whole day off -- and in all fairness until early yesterday did I know that for sure myself that I had the 3rd off.
Now that we know I do, she is backing off. She just wanted to claim first right of refusal, or so she says.
Karen going through mediation this week has me reflecting again on my own mediation session a week ago. I feel that I was able to express my viewpoint effectively to the mediator, but because xW could not be rational, in the end, and decide for peace between us, and since we are thus still headed to litigation, I don't feel the mediation really had much use in our case. Sadly.
There was the briefest of moments where I thought xW might have been rethinking things... but then it faded away, like a puff of smoke.
On the other hand if xW could really be reasoned with then we might never have needed to D and she might never have filed a lawsuit seeking full custody in the first place.
But it is what it is.
For myself, at the time, I was really weighing whether it might be better if I just gave up and did as xW was demanding, which is to simply walk away from my obligations to S8 and S4. Certainly it presented the prospect of an easier path for me, to no longer have to put up with all the aggravation of dealing with xW on a semi-regular basis. All I would be liable for then would be to just slave away at work and tighten my budget to the bone to be able to afford the outrageous child support payment that would have been levied on me, but I could garner the relative peace in knowing I was no longer responsible nor have to answer to xW for anything but my wallet. I would be effectively buying part of my freedom back from her while subjugating myself to the whims of the court. At least the later party (the courts) acts out of impersonal bureaucratic mindlessness with far less of the heavy emotional (and added) cost imposed by a selfish and treacherous co-parent -- that would definitely be a plus.
But that is not why I became a father, not to have an "easy" relatively care-free life. No, I love my sons and I cannot lay aside my obligation to them, no matter how great the amount of pain and gray-hair their mother brings me. I cannot, in good conscience, abandon them. Much as one might try to rationalize the possibility of more peace and less strife in my S's life as a result of not having to be witness to the continuing conflicts between their parents, that strife is not the lessor of the possible evils. Nor would the evil of parental conflict be guaranteed to go away just because I made the sacrifice of Solomon's Test, to let the other party have their selfish way. Being left to xW alone, abandoned by their father , would be far worse. As such, I could never do that to them.
I had a friend mention to me that tomorrow, the 3rd, would have been my wedding anniversary. While I was touched and impressed she remembered, I have not said much to anyone about this occasion this year. I guess I have purposely tried to push it to the back of my mind. So my response to my friend was of the sort, "Yes, it it would have been our 18th. But now July 3rd is just another day -- it no longer has any special meaning to us."
Seriously, I just want all of this behind me and I don't ever want to think about xW ever again, if at all possible. But I know that I am just not going to get off the hook that easy.
NC, so sorry about today. ((((((NC))))) Hope you have a good weekend. I know things will get better. The more you nc your wife, the better you'll feel. And hopefully after the D she'll feel less guilty, and be a little more reasonable. Karen
Thanks, Karen.
The D is done (as of April 3), and xW has been acting increasingly less reasonably since then (filed the custody suit), and I am struggling to get any thoughts of her out of my mind. It means that I have to refrain from thinking about the past, especially on days like yesterday (anniversary date), and thinking about what I (we) were doing once upon a time.
Fortunately/unfortunately, it is beginning to all seem like some vague dream I had. And were it not for the frequent pangs on my heart that connect these memories to reality, they would stay just like unbelievable fantasies and random thoughts in the back of my mind.
(It's sorta' like Rascal Flatts' song "Help Me Remember".)
...
Well, my time off yesterday with my little boys was very good. We went to the pool, swam and had a barbeque cookout, hamburgers and hotdogs. (Although we got bombarded by flies -- that wasn't so great.)
xW picked them up late in the afternoon, so now I am without my kids. That sucks.
Oh, well, I think I'll take it easy today. Do some writing, sit by the pool, soak up some rays (maybe).
I hope everyone's Independence Day is great.
I need to vent.
I cannot sleep for concern over what my xW is doing to my two small impressionable S's tonight. Right this minute she has them over at the OM's place camping out in a tent, in his back yard.
While I am no longer concerning myself with what she does on
her own time, it infuriates me that she would continue to expose my S's to this sack of dung she thinks so much of. This is entirely unfair and harmful to my S's -- one should
never expose one's children to a love interest
except when things are serious and there is intent to marry. xW
still refuses to acknowledge there's anything serious between them, and claims she intends to never marry again. If true, then why confuse and complicate the lives of our children with this cr*p.
And since this dirtbag is also an accomplice to destroying their family, there's even less reason for them to ever have any dealings with him.
I know xW thinks she's being clever, getting to spend time with her "boyfriend" overnight while not
technically under the same "roof" as our S's, for legal reasons. I would not put it past her to sneak off to OM's house after the boys are asleep.
I also know there's really very little I can do about this from a legal standpoint. It seems the law turns a blind eye to these things, even if immoral.
To add insult to injury, because OM is an hour's drive away from here, she's going to fail to take our S's to church tomorrow. And I'm sure she's going to rationalize that the OM's presence is more "healthy" to our S's than a commitment to one's faith.
Should I write her a letter to state my view and to let her know that I disprove of her doing this, even though we both know there is little I can do legally? Or should I just continue to bite my tongue and suck it up? I am torturing myself -- what is the best course of action for the best interests of my kids?
NCB, I don't think there is a thing you can do about it. I had the same issues with my X and his gf (who started off as the ow). They now live together, and there are even times when he has visitation, the kids are with her and not with him. They are not married but live together and share the same bed.
It sucks. The law is not about morality, but legality. So, unless the bf does something that could be considered illegal / puts your kids in danger, there are no consequences. You can't control who she is with or what she does with the boys while they are in her care.
All you can do is do is focus on being the parent you think they deserve while they are with you.
I'm sorry that there isn't anything more...
A letter from you will do nothing except make matters worse. WAS's usually don't even consider consequences from outside sources like therapists, since they have already justified their actions to such an extent. Anything you try to direct through her will only fall on deaf/hostile ears.
NC~ I can't imagine what you must be feeling. You have every right to be upset.
But Donna is right. I don't think there is anything you can do at this point, but Maybe speak to your lawyer about it. She may have a different view on the situation. This is a strange man to your boys, and maybe there is something you can do to at least not let them spend the night with her while he is in the house. You don't know what kind of guy he is, and you want to protect your kids, come from it at that angle.
Worth a try.
I hope you had a relaxing 4th. ((((hugs))) my friend, im sorry you have to even BE without your kids on ANY holiday.
T
Donna, Irish,
Thanks. I know you're both right. My heart wants to scream "foul!" but my mind tells me it won't do anything but cause more conflict. It's not that I am afraid of confrontation for my own sake (far from it), it's just that I have to remind myself that I want peace and stability for my S's, even at the expense of my own sanity.
I will mention it to my L, but I doubt she will be able to offer any more advice, just charge me for the time to review my question. I need to focus my resources on the bigger picture.
I guess I'm just going to have to pray for my enemies. They really make that extremely hard to do.
nc,
I know its hard, probably one of the most hardest things you will have to do.
The future is so uncertain for a lot of us, it would be nice if things were "uneventful" and we could just sit back and enjoy with minimal worries.
(((hugs)))
Unless you have some reason to believe your children will seriously be at risk, I'd skip talking to your lawyer. It will go nowhere and it is an instance of you putting your hand in to try to control X's love life. It is, quite simply, none of your business. The sooner you can accept that and act in accordance with that belief, the better for you and your kids.
I'm so sorry, NC. I believe your WAS is more of an addict at this point. It's like reasoning with any addict, I don't think it works. I've looked at some of my old emails to H and while I was being painfully logical, I'm sure he just took from that: she's just jealous and wants to keep me away from OP. Or something like that.
I have had these kind of experiences too, and I just try to focus on being the best parent I can be when I have them. I think praying for your W might be the best thing you can do. I don't know about the L or not, I've heard some have worked that kind of stuff into the agreements about not spending nights with OP with the kids there, but I've heard from others that it's unenforceable if they break that. So I don't know. Just that I do think in time your children will realize what's wrong and right, and missing church today won't hurt them in that. I'm sure you are providing the good kind of role model on what kind of person to be. (((((NC))))))
OT, with all due respect, I disagree.
If there were no children involved, that would be one thing. But where my kids are concerned, however slight, it is my business.
I understand what you think you're trying to say, but we part company where you tend to excuse or dismiss the wayward's actions as a course to peace. I totally and utterly disagree with that sentiment, as it just hasn't proven true in my own case where my acquiescence to a selfish control-freak got me into this mess in the first place.
My problem is that I had made the mistake in expecting that the people I love would actually show some integrity by reciprocating my own good faith in them. I put my trust in them to also act faithfully, to uphold their own professed values and commitments. But to some people that is too much to expect, and to hold such views is seen as me trying to "control" them.
OT, you said the sooner I accept your view the better off I and my kids will be. To allow and to effectively bless my xW to do whatever she likes even with our kids. In my case, at the very least, it just doesn't work that way. Any move I have made in that direction has only bought us more of the same grief. Acquiescence is a fool's game -- it doesn't lead to peace but just more turmoil.
But blind belligerence is also foolhardy. I understand that. One has to pick one's battles wisely, and that is what I am trying to do.
Because of my kids, the right course is somewhere in the middle, between your laissez-faire permissiveness and the self-torturing angst of foolishly attempting to change another person's behavior, to minimize the conflict that would ensue from either extreme.
As I stated before, I have chosen to ignore what xW does ON HER OWN TIME -- I have learned the hard, painful lesson that one cannot control another person, which is a serious lesson my xW and many others have yet to learn. And yet I have to endure her sick attempts to play family with the OM using my children.
Moreover I have to weigh the subtle long-term damage to my children from having their sense of right and wrong corrupted versus the damage from their parents at war with each other. I have to hew a course that minimizes the impact on my S's, which puts me somewhere between Scylla and Charybdis.
Nobody said this would be easy. And I don't expect it to be. But I can't bury my head in the sand either. That might mean that I have to bite my tongue when the Emperor (Empress) comes sashaying through the crowds in their new "clothing". Or it might not, depending on the circumstances. But I won't ever be a part of the chorus singing the praises to the tailor's handiwork.
So, do I talk to my lawyer about this particular instance? Maybe not yet. But I will catalog this for future use, if (when) it should prove necessary.
hey NC, yuck, sooo BTDT with x and his 5min. fiancee... I know its infuriating to see our kids being subjected to low morals and bad example, one could go crazy with anger thinking of this.
I will tell you what thekids C told me (rather asked me) are you a man of God, do you believe in him? if so, pray hard hard for God's protection for your kids, instill goodness in them so that they know in their hearts what's right (without condemning xw of course) God has your kids in his hands, as he has mine.
Yes, thanks, Cat, that's it exactly. I must pray to God to shield my kids from this as best as possible.
I am still stunned that the person I thought I knew so well would ever do something like this, continue to do these things like this. And I am saddened that she cannot see past her own selfishness long enough to see her duty is to also shield our S's from this. Ironically, if I were to start a R with someone new and to behave with the same lack of discretion, xW would show zero tolerance -- she'd be up in arms trying to ensure I never see my S's again.
And when that time come should God so will it that I meet that next person, I will have the common sense and the decency to not force that person on my S's, and to not even bring her into their lives until we both see and know it is for keeps.
But my ex has her fantasy and she's going to push this and push this until she gets it exactly as she wants. She is oblivious to what damage she does.
I want my S's to continue to love and respect their mother, as best as can be expected given her actions. I just wish and pray that she would actually live up to that love, adoration and responsibility.
With this trial I will be forced to go beyond just defending myself. As distasteful as this is to me, especially for the sake of my kids, I will have to attack her credibility as a parent. I will be forced to say and recount things that will be very acrimonious. I really don't want to, and I don't have the stomach to publicly defame her, but she continues to give me the ammo. Why? Why does it have to be this way?
I pray to God to deliver us out of this disaster, somehow. To melt xW's icy heart and to shield our S's from this turmoil. Why must we wage this war? Why must I have to lose my kids just so her fantasy can be complete?
Personally, I would give your L the heads up on her actions. I'm sure there is nothing you can do about the exposure to om but it speaks to her character. The situation may or may not be relevant but like you said.. You are on the defense and you need all the ammunition you can get to defend your position. Now is not the time to sit back. YOu can do that once the she either drops it or the trial is over.
Hi LO good to see you!!! NC, I'm kind of in a place like you I think. It horrifies me to have to go into court and bring out awful stuff about H that I would rather just try to forget. At least I kind of understand in my case it's about the $$$, but I don't get your X's motivation. Why she would want to go through this stuff is beyond me.
Hi NoCode,
I know you feel the exposure is wrong an dthis person should have no involvmemt in your children's lives at this time. Trust me, my XW up and moved in with OM, just like that, no 'break in period', nothing. My boys went from a family of their mother, father and them, to the craziness it all is today. And If you'd like, go ahead and search up my threads, I, like you was infuriated by that.
But where did that get me? Nowhere.
I was determined to fight tooth and nail for those kids for the betterment of a family enviornment. Where did that get me? Nowhere.
It was a hard, hard choice to make, but seing the pain in my kids eyes due to the constant bickering and fighting over them, and the fact as you may know, it gets ugly in that courtroom and my XW was determined to deplore me as person and I almost lost all right to my kids, I just did exactly as you are pondering. I folded, I gave in to what she felt was the right thing for everyone.
Since, my kids have thanked me whole heartedly for not subjecting them to anymore. My kids know this is not what I wanted, but they know I as their father made a huge sacrafice for their well-being. And mostly, my kids know that should they ever not be comfortable with XW and OM should they marry as they proclaim to be, the custody agreement is no different than any other piece of paper and CAN be changed.
Also, in respects to XW, now that I gave her what she "wanted", guess what? She's realizing more and more everyday and thus has said, this isn't what she wanted. And we were hard fought through and through just as you.
I am not telling you what to do, merely stating I was exactly in the same position not too long ago myself and hopefuly providing you some insight to the question you posed. For me, letting it go allowed me to truly start to heal, it gave my kids peace, and although this is a new development, allows my XW and I a re-newed chance at being friends with each other, and who knows?
For me, continuing the fight was more unhealthy for EVERYONE versus my kids exposure to OM. It also nearly destroyed me in every sense, I am now left nothing, no house, and only 5 boxes of my possesions and a ton of attorney's fees. And, as with any other instant relationship, it won't last long. Chin up.
As far as legal action to bar OM from the kids, complete waste of time and money. You can, as I did have it worded that no one of the oposite sex stay overnight aside from a fiance or spouse. In my case taht is there with the intent that OM bolts, I can then limit who is around them afterward. It's a goofy system.
I'm not suggesting that you excuse, endorse, or sing praises about anything having to do with your X's LL. My suggestion is that it is none of your business unless your children are genuinely at physical or emotional risk sufficient for legal remedy. Otherwise, set it aside.
It's been a while since I last posted an update.
I had a great day last week volunteering to be one of the den leaders at S8's Cub Scout day camp. All in all he had a great week of fun, and earned some achievements in Archery and Marksmanship that will give him a leg up when he joins back up with his Bear cub den in September.
I got a curious email from xW this evening,
two actually. I've been stealthily been keeping tabs on her through mutual contacts as she gathers affidavits against me for the custody hearing. And so I have been stealing myself up against the worst.
Then she sent me the following (paraphrased):
NCB,
I would be willing to agree to the 7 day schedule by S8's request if you can take the last sep. agreement & take out everything that is not related to the custody schedule including the requirement to live within 10 miles of each other. It would be up to the parent that moved to get the kids to school. We should add in the request for a parenting coordinator to decide whatever the lawyers say they are allowed to decide if we can't agree. Make it very simple, then we can do the child support separately. I'm actually afraid the judge will decide to go with the standard response which would be much less time with you than I am asking for. I would love it, but the kids would be dissappointed. I'm glad you have taken an interest in them. I don't think you should let them watch violent anime from "Adult Swim" That is something a parenting coordinator can help with. I am willing to abide by their decision. I don't want to have to stand before a judge & say negative things about you. I haven't smeared or bashed you to your family & friends & certainly not to your children. I want them to respect all authority & cutting you down undermines their opinion of ALL adults. I WILL NOT do this. If we go to court I will be forced to do this & the idea is repugnant to me. I wanted a very private dissolution of our dead marriage. You refused to agree to that when you quit mediation. I'm making one more attempt to provide for a civil solution.
Thank you.
xW
My first take is that I see her core objective whether she's taking me to court or not is to gain the ability to be able to move off with our sons as she sees fit -- that's what her stated terms concerning the "10 miles" clause is all about. She still fantasizes about moving off to the other side of the county more than an hour away to live with the OM and taking our S's with her.
I now take
everything she says with a big grain of salt -- especially when she goes spouting off crazy nonsense like this stuff concerning "Adult Swim" (WTF?) and how she wants to make like she hasn't already slandered me before friends, family and neighbors alike.
Yeah, riiiiiiight.Still, I would like a chance for peace. I would like to avoid this all-consuming and very costly court battle that is approaching. I want to spare our S's the untold acrimony that will ensue once this gets cranked up. But can I really trust her to make good on her word? How long before she's back to screwing me over again and trying to take advantage of my good will? Or even taking me back to court anyway later down the road? There's certainly nothing to stop her from doing that, right?
I don't trust her, and I know I can never really trust her ever again -- not really. Still there comes a point where I have to place my faith in God and allow Him to do His work. This is hard.
I sent a response to xW that I would take this under advisement and talk to my L first.
..
And then I got this second email that just really has me wondering what kind of game xW is playing.
xW made a request to me to add her as a friend in FB. That is just plain weird. I don't get her.
The suspicious side of me-- the part of me that has now learned to be quite wary of her motives -- thinks that maybe she'd like to be able to get some inside info on what's going on with me through the alternate universe, possibly thinking she can find some dirt on me. I have nothing to hide as it turns out, so I wouldn't care either way except it's the principle of the thing. I know she's a newbie on FB and has no details for me to gather intel from, but my own profile goes back about two years or so.
I've made no response, as this is another thing to ponder over for a while before I do.
Any thoughts?
Just a quick drop by. Your ex is not your friend. I believe should would use everything she possibly could against you. The fact that you have friends that are women, see all this activity...he must be on here all the time rather than with the boys, etc. I wouldn't accept it. Either ignore the request or turn it down.
I am sorry that you are going through so much BS. You would have thought it would be done once the D was over but they just don't stop, do they?
Hang in there. kat
Hi, Kat, those are very good points. However, xW's sister has been "friends" on FB for a long time now -- if xW wanted to keep tabs on me through her sister she certainly could -- and I have no reason to believe xW wouldn't have already.
The weird thing is that somehow xW has already been made my friend; I got a message that she accepted my offer to be friends -- How did that happen?!?!! I didn't send any such request! I think I need to contact tech support at FB and get this straightened out.
Now I could simply cut off the "friend" connection with xW, but that would definitely be seen as offensive. But perhaps that is what I need to do anyway. Like you said, my xW is not my friend.
I agree with Kat. She's not your friend. I wouldn't trust her either. She hasn't earned your trust. Sorry to be so negative, but I think the more you can just try to ignore her the better. I think your short polite response was perfect. I would try to keep that up and not even email back if you don't have to on some. If she ever acts like a real friend to you for a long period of time, that would be different, but I don't think she's ever done that recently anyway. Karen
you don't really want her reading your posts on FB do you? I wouldnt either if x had a page, we are business partners, business being the kids, nothing else... best keep it that way.
Not that I have anything to hide, but no, I don't really care to have xW reading my posts.
All I can say is that there's something seriously wrong with FB when one's ex can create a new account and immediately be privy to your info through some unsanctioned "Friend" connection. I was upset enough about this to write their tech support folks, but I am doubly upset now that they have silently removed the connection without acknowledging the gaff in the first place.
I am now uncertain whether I alone am just flying blind or that xW too can no longer access my info. I think I'm going to take the extra step of blacking her profile altogether, just to be sure.
(Now I am contemplating whether I should block xW's sister too...)
I know you can adjust your privacy so only your friends can see your info. sure they can go through a friend to see your picture but then can go no further. Play with the settings.
kat
NCB,
Wow, this sounds all too familiar. XW would tell me all the time she wanted to this "civily" and above the standard agreememnt. And everytime I laxed up on issues, BAM! A new surprise 5 minutes before going in front of the judge to deal with.
Your X may have some kindness of heart and actually mean what she says, but, her L certainly does not. My XW always blamed the mudslinging on her L, but yet, where did the "evidence" come from?
Unless there is anything that would depict you as an unfit parent on FB, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
I will say, monitor what your boys watch and video games they play. That helped me alot, mine weere always begging to play games that I feel in any situation are not suitable for their ages, and yes, XW let's them watch 'adult swim' I certainly do not.
As far as the her moving with OM, ohhhh brother, all too familiar. XW proclaimed the moment the D was done she was moving 2 hours away to the middle of nowhere. I was bound and determined to deter this. Thus, certain 'inconveniences' were instilled in the settlement. If she moved more than 30 miles, all transportation to and from visitation is her responsibility. I get a say-so in the academic evaluation of any school she decides to enroll them in, extra-curricular activity and living situation. Thus thwarting that.
Hindsight 20/20, my XW now see's that even tho she "had her way" and has residential custody and support, what it has done to me as a father and is starting to put some truth to the 'best intentions' she proclaimed prior to the D as I'm now a 72 hour a month parent, down 45% of my income so I can't even have my 3 summer weeks with my boys and need another if not 2 other jobs just to try and get my head above water.
Oh, and back to the FB thing, I strongly believe my XW was reading my posts here, as we would not speak for weeks on end for a while and everytime I would post something nice about her, I'd miraculously be contacted by her, food for thought.
Thanks, DDay. I have tried to catch up on your own, similar sitch. These WAW's can really be maddening and scary, huh?
I have already curtailed any questionable content that my S's take under my care. xW is definitely still trying to dig up dirt against me -- anything and everything she can find.
I talked to S8 and got some clarification as to what xW might be thinking. I have allowed my S's to watch some shows on Hulu that I have closely monitored, but xW thinks these are from the Cartoon Network's Adult Swim programming. I am getting more and more upset that xW thinks nothing about grilling our S's about everything they do under my care, but if I ever ask them about what they do when they're with xW, -- however innocent my questions might be -- she interprets that as "interrogation" and prying into her business.
I am gathering that xW is really not interested in settling the legal dispute between us. She still is acting just as hostile as she ever has.
The latest tiff has to do with a Cub Scout event with S8's pack Friday night this week. xW has nagged me about whether S8 had any den meetings or other activities during this summer hiatus -- I told xW that I would inform her of any events when they came up. Fast forward to this past Monday, our pack sent out notices that we were going to meet for a night of bowling on Friday -- unfortunately, this coincides with the start of xW's custody week. I know all the folks in the pack, so I went ahead and RSVP'ed since I intended to visit with them even if xW decided that S8 could not go with me.
I relayed the event notice to xW and asked her, out of courtesy, whether I could go ahead and let S8 know about the event and to make sure she had no other plans for him that night.
Well, xW replied that she would take S8 herself, along with S4.
I hadn't expect that; except for a couple of other rare events, xW has shied away from any public event where I can be found. So I told xW I would see them all there then.
xW blew a gasket and said I was not allowed to show up where she's at, that I was not to interfere with her time with our S's, and again began to say she felt threatened by my presence ever since I started telling "lies" about her to everyone (apparently she's going to deny and deny and deny -- even if she were caught on video in full coitus with OM she'd still deny it.)
I basically told xW that she needs to grow up.
I see this as yet another activity that I share with one or both of my S's that xW wants to horn in on. Camping, canoeing, fishing, kayaking, swimming, and now scouting. In turn, she thinks I am trying to take away an extra evening from her during her week (funny, she tolerated the Monday Night den meetings I took S8 to even during her weeks.)
Frankly, I will not be intimidated by her into not participating in an event with people I know and am friends with. If she wants to thus deny S8 the opportunity to also participate in this activity, then she is harming him. Part of me wonders if I should give in for S8's sake, but then where would that appeasement ever stop? xW would not be satisfied until my very existence is wiped from the entire space-time continuum. No, I am drawing the line.
xW has claimed that she gets "nauseated" whenever she is around me now. Well, she'd better get used to it. I'm going to this event on Friday -- and if she doesn't like it, then tough! She needs to get over herself already.
hmmmm,
I guess that's where our similarities part way. After visitation and custody was established even in temporary sense, my XW atleast was cordial enough to allow some wiggle room on ocnflicting schedules. Of course at first, I didn't bite, but after a while a reassurances from my L that such wiggle room is allowable so long as both parents agree, I have.
We haven't had many situations that involved which one of us should go to a event if it were impossible for both of us to go. About the only one sticking out is a birthday party for a mutual friends child that after some clarification, XW wasn't even invited to in the first place.
Other than that, I hosted a birthday party at our house for a mutual friend and XW showed up. It was ackward for the most part, but on eof those more 'positive' event leading up to the D.
Both events are journalized here somewhere.
Ahhh, the old, "I get so nauziated when I'm around you" bit. And I always asked, why is that. "You make my ulcer act up". Heh, ok, if life's so much better without me and having to deal with the promisses made in life, why have an ulcer?
Someone needs to tell this woman "ITS NOT AbouT HER AND HOW SHE FEELS" My Goodness!!! What is her problem... This is about your son, how self centered can someone be, does she think that you are doing this purposely to annoy her...
Come on, that's over and done with, you are divorced, she needs to get over herself and suck it up.
She is in complete denial.. like ive never seen before.
Again, I do think you should stop and say to yourself thank the lord that you are still not with the woman and what she has become.
Im so sorry that she is driving you nuts, that part should have been over with when you got divorced.
(((((nc)))))
NCB,
Haven't been on these boards in a long time. I had sometime to kill tonight and thought I would check in on some old friends. I'm sorry your w is now your xW and she couldn't see the painful path that she has chosen. I won't go into my whole sitch but one thing that I can tell you after being D for 18 months is to only worry about the things that you can control. If she wants to complain to you about how you handle your boys.... ignore it. If she wants to interogate your boys after you have them let her. Don't let her selfishness change the way you live your life and take care of your boys. She cheated, she left, she is nolonger your problem. Yes, she will have an influence on your boys, but, that brings me back to my orginal point... Worry about what you can control. Your boys will see the way your living your life and will follow your example. If your xW is as crazy as she sounds they will see the difference and will again be drawn to your example. Hopefully overtime the non-sense will stop (never really does though...)and she too can once again be a positive influence to your boys.
Again, I haven't been on the boards in a long while, so if I miss reading your last couple of post forgive me.
Take Care,
Scott
Scott, man,
I really, really appreciate you taking time and stopping by to check in on me. I hope that you and your DD's are getting along very well -- you deserve every bit of joy they bring to you. And I am hopeful your life is indeed moving forward again in a positive direction after all that your xW put you through.
You're absolutely right -- we need to focus on those things we can control, and give the things we can't over to God. If it were just myself, I know for a certainty that I would have already moved on and left my xW in the past. But because of my children, I find daily there are new ways that my patience is tested -- not because of the children themselves but because of their mindlessly hate-filled and self-centered mother.
I am working very hard to make sure her constant selfishness does not bring me down. I can't stand what this is doing to my S's. I still worry about the long term effects this psychological warfare is having on them. It upsets me and I know I must keep that in check, for their sake. I ask God to relieve me of this recurring pain their mother brings on me, but I must be content with His grace alone, it would seem.
On the bright side, I think I am slowly getting better at handling this. And I know these trials have tempered me far more than I would have been otherwise. I have had to learn more patience than I ever thought possible (and I was a pretty darn patient person before all this.) I have been enduring stress levels that would have killed me in years prior. I am getting there, and I have hope.
Thanks again, Scott. And please don't be a stranger. Visit any time you like.
what a screwball nc, yikes! shorten shorten shorten your convos with her, dont' allow her the minutes in which she'll spew her venom, if she starts with her junk just tell her that;s all yo have to say and to have a nice day BYE. I have almost perfected teh art of being totally detached when I have to talk to x, no details no unnecesary info of any kind, to the point and that's it.
Hi, Cat,
Yes, she's a freakin' screwball, that's for certain. She keeps emailing crap to me trying to defend her stupid behavior regarding last evening's cub scout event she denied S8 from being able to participate in. I told her how childish and petty she was for putting her selfishness and her hatred of me ahead of doing what's right for S8. As part of her insane defence, she's resorting back to history revision and is now claiming she was an abuse victim in our M and that it's natural for an abused person to not want to be around an abuser. She's become so vile and full of shite -- more to the point, she's a looney.
So for my own peace of mind I have to cut this crap off. I'm not saying jack squat about anything to her ever again except for information that deals strictly with caring for our sons.
I am now losing hope that she is really serious about settling this custody dispute. I am beginning to think it was all for show, to make it look like she had tried to make one last offer of peace. I don't put anything past her anymore.
She keeps emailing crap to me trying to defend her stupid behavior regarding last evening's cub scout event she denied S8 from being able to participate in.
Sounds like she's feeling guilty to me. I wouldn't respond and let her experience any guilt she has. Of course she should have guilt. I think the anger towards us is their way of dealing with their own feelings of being crappy parents and spouses. I think she'll look back some day and be very ashamed, as she should. Karen
Hi, Karen,
Anyone that has done what xW has done, is continuing to do, should feel that guilt. But it seems that xW responds to guilt by simply perpetuating more acts she should feel guilty for.
I got word from the L that she has tendered an acceptance of a settlement in our case, as currently worded. However, given xW nasty behaviors of late and the terrible words she's spoken behind my back, I gather she is not being sincere herself in seeking a settlement.
In fact, as it turns out, after all of the hullabaloo she raised over my contacting our former neighbors and a mutual friend or two, and after all the resulting "gaslighting" of my character and her telling everyone how dangerously insane I might be for having contacted these folks, my xW has done the very same thing herself: She approached my brother's wife, the one seeking to have their own M ended (MLC, I strongly suspect), and made a FB friendship request. xW also began sending my SIL emails prying into the demise of their M and shoveling a load of lies about me to her. My SIL is likely gullible enough to think xW is being sincere, especially since xW is now portraying herself as a kindred spirit; they are both infected with the WAW disease.
This just shows xW to be as vile and petty as her mother, and an absolute hypocrit. I am tempted to ape xW's own words right back at her, telling her I now fear for the safety of myself and our children because of her disturbed interference and "poisoning" of my personal R with others.
xW is just evil now. Nothing else.
As for the cub scout thing -- I think it was time for you to step aside. It is VERY normal for ex-spouses not to want to be around the X. You should not force her to choose between continuing your son's normal activities and doing what it takes to avoid you. The kids come first. It was her night and son's scout night -- your stubbornness cost your kid.
Regarding trying to make progress on custody -- If your problem with letting go of the 10-mile limit is that you think this will allow XW to move in with OM, then I'd strongly recommend that you accept her terms if they are otherwise reasonable. You can't control your XW's LL or how much your kids are exposed to her BF.
On the other hand, if you have another concern about giving up the 10-mile limit, then perhaps you can address it directly. "I am willing to give up the 10-mile limit if we specify the boys will stay in the same school, not have an average commute to school more than 45 minutes one way, be available for scouting activities, etc..."
It is not going to do your kids any good to drag the custody issue through the courts, especially if a reasonable compromise is within reach.
My mediator told be -- no D agreement is fair until both parties feel screwed. This has proven to be very true, and I expect it holds for custody agreements too.
OT,
As usual, you are entitled to your opinion but I disagree, completely. I am beginning to think your entire viewpoint on such matters is centered on promoting the interests of the WAS and less on the interests of the children as you may claim. You certainly seem less concerned for the LBS.
The scouting thing was a no-win situation for me. You are absolutely wrong though in assuming letting the WAW have her way was going to do anything to promote peace for my S's much less be in their best interests. That way leads down a slippery slope -- I have given her inch after inch and she takes mile after mile. If she were to claim the one remaining activity I share with my son(s) -- after losing so many others to her already, and all because she can't share like a mature, rational adult -- I might as well hang up my parenting hat for good, because she would not stop until I am completely out of the picture. How would that help my children?
Likewise, lifting the 10-mile limit as a condition of shared parenting would be a poison pill solution. It gives her the cover to say she supports shared parenting, but if she moves the children more than an hour away (as she has planned long before this bomb) then it makes the practicality of being able to share parenting 50-50 impossible. She knows that, and that's why she made the offer. Even were I to persist she would then be able to go before a judge and claim harm to our kids since I would thus be forced to drive them more than two hours per day just to commute them to and from school. I'd be an idiot to allow her to put me in that situation.
But you assume that I must be trying to control my xW and her sinful LL. That is the least of my concerns, as I know I cannot control her and I certainly don't want any responsibility for her or her outcome at all.
I understand it is best that one forgive and forget, but you can't really forgive someone if that other party is not only unrepentant but is continuing their transgressions against yourself.
Really, I am wondering just why you think the LBS should appease such people. You come off every time as the advocate for these unreasonable wayward spouses. Perhaps you just don't realize that appeasement with some people only breeds more trouble.
Maybe I missed it, but why, again, are you here on these boards?
I'm not asking you to appease your W at all, nor help out WASs. I'm trying to help YOU out. You seem to be in an (understandably) angry and reactive place. If you can take a step back and eliminate some of the emotion from your choices, you'll wind up in a better place.
I don't assume that your concern was about your XW's LL. You were the one that mentioned that concern with respect to the 10 mile limit. I said IF that was your concern, to let it go.
Now, it seems that your real concern is having the kid's school within x miles of your house and limiting the roundtrip commute time for kid swaps to under y minutes. So, rather than simply saying "no" to eliminating the 10 mile limit, my suggestion is that you instead reply with what YOU really want. The 10 mile limit is rather arbitrary. Thus, in the interests of making progress on the custody issue, you might suggest, "I am fine with eliminating the 10 mile limit as long as the kid's school is within half an hour from my house and my roundtrip commute for kid swaps is under one hour." (Or, whatever numbers work for you.) The point is to move the discussion forward and get to what really matters with respect to the 10 mile limit.
As for the scouting thing, XW had custody of your son that day. Period. Your choice to go to the scouting event cost him the opportunity to go. Period. If XW is unwilling to give up her time with son to you for scouting events, there is not much you can do about it unless you change the agreement. If you want to keep scouting limited to you and him, then you are going to interfere with his scouting. That is not going to be good for him. Try not to be jealous of XW's activities with son. You are not going to lose his love, nothing and no one could ever replace you in his life. What is important is have good quality time and creating special times together. You'll have plenty of opportunities to do with scouting AND with new things in your lives. Again, it is pretty standard for ex-spouses to avoid each other. Indeed, at this point it is probably best for your son that he not be put in the position of dealing with both parents at such an event for now and the forseeable future -- until you and XW have a clean, settled, civil, unemotional, business-only co-parenting R.
I really have no idea how XW is continuing to transgress against you, nor how she did in the past. It is irrelevant to YOUR best moves at this point, unless the kid's welfare is at stake in a way that is legally actionable. Right now the best thing you can do is focus narrowly on getting the business arrangements settled in the way that is best for you and the kids. If you think that you'll get a better deal and hurt the children less by going to court to fight it out, then go for it. But, that is seldom the case.
As for why I am on these boards, I am here to try to help people out from a more objective perspective. There are plenty of cheerleaders, consolers, and people pleasers on these boards. There are plenty of people struggling through the same issues. Having been an LBS with a WAS myself, and come out the other side, I post to people I think I can help with a pretty direct manner from a pretty detached, rational place. They mostly find my help valuable and my intuitions surprisingly sharp, but not always. It seems that you do not, so I can certainly stop posting to you. But, I urge you to open your mind and try to get a new perspective on things. That you think I am defending WASs says a lot about the perspective you now hold. We all go through a stage in which our vision is very skewed and clouded by emotion. Don't let that get in the way of your and your kids' best interest.
Finally, I'm sorry that you felt attacked by my post. Trust me, my intent was not to attack, but to support you. That being said, I take your last comment to me to be a request to stop posting to you, and I can certainly honor your request.
Take good care and keep the big goals in mind so that the smaller things don't get you off track. And don't forget that the things that piss you off the most on these boards are usually those that are worth paying the most attention to.
As for the scouting thing, XW had custody of your son that day. Period. Your choice to go to the scouting event cost him the opportunity to go. Period.
I don't get that. My H has running/track night with the kids each summer. I 100% support him having them those nights although each of them have fallen on "my" night. I do girl scouts with my D9 and my H has always been supportive of that. I don't hold my D9 back b/c my H is going. NC's WAS is an adult and she should be more mature than that.
I think it's hard to understand a WAS like NC's unless you have experienced that. I can say I have and I don't think it's as easy as you describe. Wish it was. I do try to be flexible about most everything, but sometimes things matter (like the fear of your kids being moved away!) and you have to stand your ground. Karen
Karen,
Hey, I understand -- you are definitely making the better choice for your kid. I think his XW should have let him take his son to the scout thing too. But, she didn't, she isn't willing to allow that flexibility -- which is, very simply, her choice. Her time, her choice, period. Trying to understand it or fight it is a waste of time and energy, not good for anyone in the long run. Once the D goes through, the kid's R with the X is not the other parent's job to manage or direct or interfere with. It is nice to have some give and take in the co-parenting R, but the space for that usually comes long after the D and custody battles have been settled, not in the middle of the mess, unfortunately. NCB made a reasonable request, he was turned down -- struggling against his XW on this cost his son the scouting activity. Not a fight worth picking.
-And, I don't think it is easy at all. It is gut-wrenching, tragic, unbearably sad, infuriating (a stronger appropriate term escapes me), hurtful, horrid, and horrifying.
Thanks, Karen,
I tried being conciliatory and overly flexible in the early days following the bomb. I bit my tongue and accepted her continual upbraiding me for the failure of our M and why she was "forced" to end it. I tried to keep the peace and I honestly blamed myself -- which she insisted on. And still she continued right along with her A and making her plans to replace me in our S's lives. And no, that is not hyperbole -- prior to the bomb she began laying plans to take my children away from me. She brought the OM into my home on at least two known occasions while I was at work. She was auditioning him for stepping into my role even though I had no clue we had that degree of M difficulties, let alone enough to betray me so. My then W was filling my children's head full of dreams about a new life way out in the country, with a tree house and a new older brother. Mind you, I knew nothing of this treachery at the time -- I had never even met this OM, her co-worker of some ten years (and still haven't).
After the bomb and I discovered all the emails and letters, she has denied every single thing, even though her own son and her own mother (inadvertently) corroborated the events that took place in my own home. She swore I was mistaken and wrong to misunderstand her intent to be to replace me lock-stock-and-barrel with the OM. And yet over the last two years she has methodically moved closer and closer to that actual aim.
Moreover, any activity that I took up with my S's, she has gradually tried to commandeer away from me. When I began attempts two Summers ago to take our S's camping and fishing, she forbade me from doing so, saying that they were too young and could not be properly cared for safely and securely in such an uncontrolled environment. And though I relented, it wasn't two months later before she herself took them both camping and fishing.
I joined the local Lego users group with S8 because I had years ago gotten him interested in Legos (which she had her reservations about way back then about his ability to build anything. She thought it would be too frustrating for him. But he took to it like a duck to water.) And since the bomb she has tried to commandeer that to herself.
I am an accomplished and skilled paddler, for both canoes and kayaks, having grown up with this sport, and yet xW had to beat me to the punch when it came time to introduce them to this activity.
I told xW a long time ago that I was going to get our S's involved in activities like Scouting that they could share with me, their father. xW even began nagging me about when I would make good on that promise. I began taking S8 to the den meetings and to work with him on the achievements and the projects. To her credit xW, allowed S8 to go to the meetings every Monday even on her week of custody. So the precedent had already been made. And yet she refused him from going to this one event simply because she refuses to get along with me. That was her decision and her prerogative, certainly, but I won't be cowed into accepting all of the blame for S8 being the one who suffered for it. I hate that he missed out, and yeah, I could have allowed his mother to bully me into giving in to her all-or-nothing demands, but I decided that it was in no one's long-term interest for me to continue to step aside.
So I may indeed be getting overly alarmed at xW's attempt to manipulate me and our S's. But I don't think so -- sometimes one has to protest what they see as wrong or unfair, or else be prepared for the offenses to continue indefinitely.
I know you understand personally, Karen.
...struggling against his XW on this cost his son the scouting activity. Not a fight worth picking.
I struggled with myself on this. Fortunately, I had the discretion to not breath a word about the event to S8, but instead had asked xW if I could take our S to the event and thus be able to tell him about it. I was prepared for her to say no, in which case S8 would never hear of the event from me and thus be disappointed.
At the same time, I will not casually absolve xW for one iota of her role in this dispute.
She wouldn't leave it alone. She blew it up into a major issue so as to put me on the defensive. But truth is, whichever way I turn xW is going to always see the worst in it.
Sadly, the reality of this is that this won't be the last time our S's will suffer the consequences of this continual dispute between their parents. I am doing my best to ensure any negative impact to my S's, especially in these all-to-often lose-lose decisions, is kept as minimal as possible.
NCB,
Stopping a pointless battle to allow your son to attend his scouting function has zero to do with absolving XW of anything. Not playing her game and feeling "forced" onto the defensive is simply the better move. Ever seen War Games? Continuing to engage XW in such battles costs your son. If she isn't doing something legally actionable and she is doing something within the context of your agreement (having custody of son and not sharing it on her day), then fighting about it isn't going to go anywhere except making co-parenting harder, which is harder on your son.
Have you tried no contact except for email? Email makes it easier to keep things strictly business. It helps avoid those landmines that WASs often seem to scatter so prolifically.
Continuing to engage XW in such battles costs your son.
And allowing his mother to solely dictate the terms by which his father can parent him will cost him far more.
You think it's pointless. I'd say you haven't considered all the stakes. Her "game" is to wean the children out of having a father with an active role in their lives. She wants full and absolute control of our children's lives. She would have me be nothing more than the "wallet".
This isn't just about legalities, this is about right and wrong. It is about understanding that it takes both parents to properly raise a child -- I don't cotton to this fallacy that fathers are irrelevant.
This particular battle over the scouting event was engaged entirely by email. Since then I have refused to reply to anything she sends that doesn't pertain directly to our S's, and even then I have said very little, keeping it short and sweet.
...
But here's a real kicker for everyone to ponder. I begin my next week of custody this Friday, just as xW began this week's custody last Friday (the day of the given dispute regarding the Scouts). This Friday there is an event at S8's school, a meet and greet for his new teacher (he begins 3rd grade next week.) xW knows I am going to this after work -- this is already known.
Well just this very morning she asks me if it would be okay if she were to also get off work a little early so she could pick up both our S's and meet me at the school with them, and we could all go meet S8's 3rd grade teacher.
I haven't replied yet. But can you see the dilemma and the contradictory message she sends? I'm thinking a week ago she cannot stand for me to be around her and that is her stated rationale for not wanting to share our S's during
her week. But suddenly she can tolerate my presence when it means she gets to share them during
my week?
On principle, were I to reciprocate the way she has behaved I would deny her "offer". The irony is not lost on me either. But I'm not nearly as petty as she has proven to be, as I don't really care if she's there or not. Not if my S's would appreciate it.
"And allowing his mother to solely dictate the terms by which his father can parent him will cost him far more.
You think it's pointless. I'd say you haven't considered all the stakes. Her "game" is to wean the children out of having a father with an active role in their lives. She wants full and absolute control of our children's lives. She would have me be nothing more than the "wallet".
This isn't just about legalities, this is about right and wrong. It is about understanding that it takes both parents to properly raise a child -- I don't cotton to this fallacy that fathers are irrelevant."
Wow -- where is this coming from? Who said that fathers are irrelevant??? My interest is in getting you to a place where you can do the most effective fathering possible. The best way to do this is for you to get the best custody agreement possible. Working on the agreement in a productive, business-only manner and not engaging in these side-battles over time that is currently "hers" will help you get there.
Who said anything about XW gaining "full and absolute" control of your kid's lives? She had custody of the kids that night and chose not to share it. Period. Would it have been nice for her to share it or let you have the time? Sure. But when you are D, your X doesn't have to be nice. Battling about it will not help.
I admire you not engaging in tit-for-tat with respect to her latest move. And, even moreso for not calling her on her switcheroo. She would no doubt have some rationale (like scouting is optional, school is essential, or something...). And, then the challenge would go nowhere except downhill. So, you did the brilliant thing -- ask the factual question, "Is it acceptable for me to come?" with a simple, straightforward answer, "Yes." (And, FWIW, that kind of direct, simple, non-battling, non-emotional response is far more likely to get her to start looking at her own inconsistency than anything you could say to her....) So, great, great job with that.
The best way to do this is for you to get the best custody agreement possible. Working on the agreement in a productive, business-only manner and not engaging in these side-battles over time that is currently "hers" will help you get there.
If you have rational, reasonable people that are looking at being productive or cooperative, then that would be true. NC's wife is not that kind of person. It's hard to understand if you haven't personally experienced that I think.
NC, I do agree you are doing the right thing on Friday. That would be great if she looked at herself or would return the generosity, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Karen
I would send her an e-mail along the lines of "W, I am more than willing to have us together for our children during these important events of their lives. Having us together shows them that we both support them and encourage their growth and development. I will keep this in mind for future events that occur throughout the year. NC"
I know she is dense but great way to document what you are thinking!
kat
Au contraire, if an X is irrational and uncooperative, it is all the more reason to keep things strictly business. Certainly, it is worth trying to reach an agreement through Ls rather than through the courts when X has indicated she'd like to do so. Avoiding unnecessary battles of will and offering constructive, unemotional responses cannot hurt anything. But it might be even more useful to communicate about custody arrangements through the Ls in such a case. So, "XW, I too would like to come to an agreement amicably. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll speak with my L and we will send you a reply responsive to your thoughts soon." Then, let the L's talk.
Kat,
Such "message" emails generally serve merely to rile a WAS. They won't help the WAS "see the light" or "get it." XW will either get it herself and be more flexible on her custody days or she won't. Gratitude would go much further -- "Thanks, that is a great idea and it will be great for the kids."
Documenting what is going on is a good idea -- maybe a journal?
Wow -- where is this coming from? Who said that fathers are irrelevant???
Xw's mentor, her mother, is the chief source of this belief. It is a belief that xW rejected for years, but now embraces. This is not a matter of conjecture, FYI.
Who said anything about XW gaining "full and absolute" control of your kid's lives?
xW was identified by our M counselor -- a noted psychologist -- as having a severe expectation of being able to control her H and family. (I forget how he originally put it. ) Basically, she's an anal-retentive control-freak. Her contribution to the discord in our R stems primarily from this need to control others.
So co-parenting with xW has proven to be a very daunting task because she deems to dictate every detail about how our children should be raised. She tries to micromanage everything. And she does not want another party to "interfere" with her plans, especially a former H. In fact, even though she managed to D herself from her H, she still thinks she can dictate how that ex-spouse can think and behave. It vexes her to no end that while she achieved her D it has also meant giving up controlling me and my behaviors. So I guess now she would try to control me through our children instead.
Bingo, Karen. My xW only does rational or reasonable if it benefits herself. Otherwise, she thinks she stands more to gain by being belligerent.
And no, I won't hold my breath that she'll return kindness with kindness. I've been burned often enough already to know that her idea of compromise means she stands her ground and I do all of the compromising. Likewise, her idea of give-and-take is that I do all the giving while she does all the taking.
nc~
I think you already know what my feelings are on the subject. It easy for anyone to say "this is what you need to do"... saying it is a lot easier than doing it, and when emotions are involved its even harder. I know I couldn't shut it off like that. But that is me.
I don't think she will ever see the light , not anytime soon anyway. Its so fustrating that ultimately she has led the M to its demise, yet she acts like what she has done is non-existent.
Don't ever stop sticking up for your kids, someone has to look out for their best interest, and it woun't be her, all she cares about is herself.
(((((hugs))))
I haven't commented much on my sitch lately. It's now just under two weeks before the temporary hearing, and I feel like I'm holding my breath in cautious anticipation...
My L and xW's L are still negotiating a settlement. I was expecting it to happen this week, but it hasn't gelled yet, I guess. I believe they filed a 1-week extension to filing all the affidavits, which had been due yesterday. Hopefully this extension will give us the time to resolve the matter before we go to court.
I haven't wanted to say too much about this to anyone, for fear I might jinx it. Maybe I am too pessimistic. Or maybe I have too often had my expectations dashed at the last second by xW to think it wouldn't happen again. I know her own concern for our S's is what is now bringing her to the table again, but experience tells me she really doesn't put them ahead of her own self-serving interests, not when push comes to shove.
I pray for her every night. I get down on my knees and pray for her and my enemies. I ask God to take these matters into His hands and let His will be done. I ask that He take xW and open her hardened heart once more, for her sake and everyone's sake, not just my own. But as always, let His will be done regardless of my own wishes.
One morning this week I felt compelled to get up from bed and pray again. S8 woke up and found me on my knees. He silently came and knelt beside me, bowed his head -- I can't tell you how much that touched me.
....
I want to lift up prayers for one of the fathers in my S's Cub Scout den. Since July 4 he has been in the hospital for a serious condition called ADEM (Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis) which has caused stroke-like symptoms and required brain surgery. He is now in recovery (thank the Lord) after nearly being lost, and he has a very long and arduous road ahead for him in rehabilitation. He is only now regaining some of his speech (thankfully) but there is still paralysis in his right arm.
I will post this also to the prayer request forum.
One morning this week I felt compelled to get up from bed and pray again. S8 woke up and found me on my knees. He silently came and knelt beside me, bowed his head -- I can't tell you how much that touched me
That brought a tear... How sweet.
I wish this process was going faster for you, its the fear of the unknown that drives us crazy.
Im so sorry for your friend. Thats awful. I will say a prayer for him and his family.
Have you had your son's lately?? I hope you are getting out a bit.
Me too, Irish. (Tear that is.)
I'm not really getting out much lately. I've been fighting a persistent chest cold. Other than church I haven't gone out in more than a week.
I had my sons until Friday, so this weekend I was bereft of their company. Didn't do much, just laid low. Once I get past this cold I hope to be more active again.
In the mean time I am awaiting the fate of this custody dispute, and wondering what's going on. I saw xW and our S's briefly at church yesterday. xW has been as cold as I've ever seen her -- seems to be silently fuming that I dare to exist, especially in any capacity within our S's lives. Leads me to think she's thinking of withdrawing from negotiations again. But that might just be my pessimism talking.
Just the same it wouldn't surprise me.
Hey, NC. I hope you're feeling better by now. I've been praying for you and your custody stuff. I hope it works out well for you and your boys...
Karen
Hi, Karen, thanks for looking in on me. I'm mostly over my cold now. And I'm still awaiting word of whether we are settled this custody dispute as yet. At the very last minute yesterday, I got word that xW had finally agreed to signing the consent order. But as of now there is still no word that xW has signed anything.
I feel like I'm back in limbo again, not knowing which way or another how things will turn out.
The good news is that I got my sons back this evening -- I really missed them this week!
will keep you in my prayers NC__)))))
Hello, all,
I wanted to report on the custody suit that xW filed against me to try to wrest sole custody of our two S's. I will first recap by saying that five months after she decided to break off negotiations and file the lawsuit, she suddenly decided in the closing weeks before the custody hearing to say she would consider settling her case. She said she would agree to the status quo of 50-50 shared parenting if I would give up some of the clauses in the proposed agreement.
I have had a hard time believing xW (still don't) or her motives, especially that she would suddenly want to settle a case she had been doggedly pursuing. After all, she was the one who filed the suit to begin with, right when we were finalizing the settlement and parenting agreement.
xW's L and my L continued to negotiate for a settlement, even when xW seemed to be getting cold feet. There was also a last minute wrinkle (that I will speak more on later) that raised xW's ire and led me to believe that she would again bail out of negotiations.
In the end, we gave some concessions to xW but she did agree to the terms for 50-50 shared parenting as long as there was an assigned parenting coordinator (PC).
So, I am quite relieved to report that we have both signed the agreement and it was presented to the judge during our scheduled custody hearing yesterday (Friday, the 14th). This battle is now over. It does not necessarily mean the war is really over however, but I am at last at peace.
I have a lot of people to thank for all their continuing prayers. Folks here in the DB forums, my support group, my friends and family.
---
About that "wrinkle".
Let's just say that xW recently discovered how I initially gained the intel about her and the OM two years ago on the night of "the bomb". That fateful night I discovered and subsequently commandeered a free email account she had opened up to have illicit conversations with the OM. Only now is xW understanding just how much information I had gleaned about her treachery. And she is upset about it, claiming I violated her privacy and that what I did was a "cyber-crime".
What's maddening is that I had told her two years ago that I had discovered their emails to each other, and that was how I knew about their affair. But I guess she just doesn't really listen like she thinks she does. Instead she had to rediscover this old forgotten account.
I am relieved that she decided not to use this to back out of signing the consent order this week.
But she did raise this matter up again today in another snide email remark, so she is still very much upset about it. I have my own serious beefs against her, as expected, but I am putting those aside. So I've decided that on this and any other matter that doesn't concern our children that I will refrain from responding.
--
I have related on other people's threads how I am struggling with xW's continually foisting of OM on our S's lives. My S's were both going on and on last week about how "Mr. OM" would roughhouse with them in the swimming pool. Not only do I not like the fact this unsavory person is trying to worm his way into my S's lives but I especially do not appreciate a strange man touching my sons for extended periods, whether in play or not. It is not his place, and it is totally inappropriate.
I, too, discovered my H's affair on email. There was a nice little timeline laid out there, and it was clear that he was the pursuer. Once she said "yes," it took him less than 48 hours to end our marriage.
The interesting thing is that he considered my reading his emails to be crossing a much bigger boundary than his leaving his family for another woman. And so did his family and many friends. For the life of me, I'm not sure I'll ever understand that. And it was his "reason" for moving out and changing his mind from separation to divorce--within 2 days of the bomb, and on my birthday.
he considered my reading his emails to be crossing a much bigger boundary than his leaving his family for another woman.
Yeah, I don't think I'll ever understand that either, but that's precisely the attitude I'm getting from xW. For some cockeyed way of thinking, xW would have us believe that her adultery, treachery and deceit -- not to mention having her own mother spy on me -- is only a
slight offense as compared to me "stealing" some of her emails.
And it was his "reason" for moving out and changing his mind from separation to divorce--within 2 days of the bomb, and on my birthday.
Wow, that's harsh. That's worse than my getting the bomb just two days before Father's Day. But such words as these WAS come up with are just
excuses for proceeding with what they were going to do anyway.
Wow, that's harsh. That's worse than my getting the bomb just two days before Father's Day. But such words as these WAS come up with are just excuses for proceeding with what they were going to do anyway.
yeah--it was also a couple of days before our anniversary and a couple of days after I found out I'd be losing my job. He'd been trying to pick a fight for weeks and I finally took the bait--and he used it as an excuse to launch into the bomb. But I also have little doubt that he timed it for maximum damage as well--and then blamed it on me. Still does, as a matter of fact, almost a year and a half later. Makes you wonder if they'll continue the self-deceit forever.
Makes you wonder if they'll continue the self-deceit forever.
I sincerely believe that mainly serves to harm themselves. How could it not?
I don't know. xH is thriving--this hasn't hurt his career, his financial status or his relationships with friends and family. D13 reports he is quite happy. For now, anyway, it doesn't seem to be hurting him at all (meanwhile D and I are struggling!) I trust that eventually it will catch up with him--but I gave up on karma awhile back.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
It does seem sometimes that the world of Man rewards sin. I've actually had my xW mock and jeer me for being alone, split off from her and struggling. She said, "So how's that workin' out for ya', huh?", as if
I had been the one who had wanted to end our M, split our family, lose our home, ruin our finances.
They say the best revenge is to lead a good life. But then as a Christian I need to remember that we're not to think of such things as revenge, ... but to store up our treasures in Heaven.
Love your D, HM. Take care of yourself and find the true blessings in your life. That's the best anyone can hope for.
of course you're right. my bitterness is showing. I'm not like this most of the time, just got triggered by something you said. and then I hijacked your thread--sorry!!!
(((HM)))
Not a hijack at all, my friend. This is precisely the topics we discuss here in these forums ... and is why we are here to try to support one another. You're just expressing exactly what so many of us have to go through or have already been through. I've felt the same way. My advice to you also serves as a mantra to myself, as these feelings will indeed surface from time to time. I just have to work through them and remember why it is that I persist.
I have felt some angst over the fact that xW can continue to carry on like Hosea's wife, the harlot, and sin all the rest of her days without repenting, but if she repents in even the last minutes before death, she will see Heaven. Part of me resents this, that the wicked can claim salvation if only they do so right before death. I know that in reality that is so extremely rare and unlikely, that if one carries on so heinously for so long that they are unlikely by their very nature to repent at the end -- it would likely never occur to them. But the fact that the "escape clause", so to speak, exists is troublesome to me at times.
And the fact that this would be troublesome to me at all is, in and of itself, troublesome. I have to adjust my thinking on this.
As if to underscore my own struggles with this seeming paradox, I just got back from church service where we had a sermon on Grace. The pastor reminded us of the parable about the man with the vineyard who upset his hardest laborers by paying an equal full-day's wage even to those who showed up late in the day and thus did not work the whole day as others had. It was unfair, yes. But the point of the story is that Grace is so much more than any of us deserve, no matter how hard we work or how soon we come to the foot of the cross.
So I have to console myself with the fact that I really do not want what is fair or just, even though I might think I do -- because all of us, myself included, fall far short of His mercy and deserve nothing more than death.
I will accept God's Grace and His mercy and relinquish my foolish claim for justice.
Grace...ah, yes. struggling to accept it in other parts of my life. and puzzling that it's such a struggle! perhaps after years of not measuring up, being criticized for things such as how loudly I chew, how I sit down, how I hum without being aware--and then ultimately being rejected because I'm "cold and distant"--unconditional and undeserved love are even harder to grasp. Funny--in years of ministry I was pretty effective at making sure others felt loved by God, but it seems I was always feeling like the vessel and not the recipient.
It's not so much that I want to see xH suffer as much as we have suffered. It's just that thriving at our expense reinforces the denial of his responsibility, in fact reinforces that he is still a wonderful, warm, sensitieve, pastoral guy to so many people who have found it convenient to cut D and I out of their lives. It loops back into my grief about losing so much more than just my marriage--but also my family, most of my friends and my church community (concurrently, but not because of xH). It just seems that D and I have suffered all the consequences and I can't, for the life of me, figure out just what I did wrong. And I'm stuck there.
HM,
I understand being stuck. Let us just trust that God knows when the time is to pause and when the time is to move onward again. To know when and how to become unstuck.
About your ex, while I haven't exactly run across the particular passages in scripture myself <note to self, here is an action item>, I have heard people say that God reserves special judgement against those who lead others astray, especially religious leaders. It is one thing to take actions that condemn one's own self to damnation, it's a whole other thing when you lead other souls off the straight and narrow.
I can say with certainty that during his ministry Jesus did take particular aim at the Pharisees, for their hypocrisy and their arrogance. And I can safely assume that their willful, unrepentant ways cost them eternity. (Nicodemus being one notable exception, it would seem.)
It sounds as if your ex is just like a Pharisee, especially in his self-righteousness and that he too tries to justify D and his own worldly prosperity. Those who follow him even knowing of his faults do so at their own risk. We should pity them.
It is indeed a struggle. And you should know as well as I that God does not lead us around adversity but through it. I can't say that I actually like this myself, but I have to accept it, for He knows best. I just wish my own life was just a tad less "interesting", if you know what I mean.
Weird, but looking at my life the past 2 years--I feel like I'm a stronger person, more confidence, stronger faith. It's been in a weird way, a good experience. I know some others at my church have really grown through tough experiences too.
I really believe a lot of the anger/hatred that comes from your wife is prob. her own guilt and anger at herself kind of projected onto you. You can't be full of anger like that and be a happy person, so I think she's def. had consequences in that way. Karen
I just wish my own life was just a tad less "interesting", if you know what I mean.
Indeed I do know what you mean! I believe I've said that myself a time or two.
Weird, but looking at my life the past 2 years--I feel like I'm a stronger person, more confidence, stronger faith. It's been in a weird way, a good experience. I know some others at my church have really grown through tough experiences too.
Karen
Yes, this is redemption. I don't believe that God causes these things to happen "for our own good" by any means, but that he can bring redemption out of them in spite of everything. Not sure I could go on if I didn't believe that!
NC..
Sorry I have been MIA... Im so glad that everything went ok. I know you must feel some peace that most of it is over.
As for her finding out about the email... HA! She's just po-ed because you have yet found another sign of her infidelity and she will have a hard time putting a spin on it... but she already has by accusing you of violating her privacy... WTF?????? She is the one that cheated, has she forgotten that, this shows how truly sick she is... thank goodness you are rid of the person she has become.
I would also keep to things as simply as possible. Only make contact concerning the boys, that's it. And if she tries to pull you into to some other discussion, I would politely say to her " what is done is done" Our conversations can only be about our boys, and that is it, I have nothing else to say to you so please stop trying to drag me into something else.
Then maybe she will get the point.
Hope you are doing well otherwise, take care of yourself my friend.
I really believe a lot of the anger/hatred that comes from your wife is prob. her own guilt and anger at herself kind of projected onto you. You can't be full of anger like that and be a happy person, so I think she's def. had consequences in that way.
No, she definitely has some pent up anger and hatred in her. Her chief beef with me stems from her unreasonable expectations. All through the latter part of our M she had typical but excessive expectations for how she wanted me to think, behave and act, and how she wanted our lives to be led. She insisted that we buy a house and that we maintain it in just a certain way and who's roles were what. The general principles I could readily agree to -- I was actually happy to -- but the details and her attempts to micromanage them, I did
not appreciate. These differences were very slight in the beginning, but by the time of the bomb that had grown to geometric proportions.
Unfortunately after the separation xW's expectations actually have gotten worse. They no longer involve me being a part of her present or future. No, I am now an obstacle that needs to be removed. And that presents a whole new level of aggravation for her over me. Now that we're divorced, she still has these impossible expectations -- she says a lot less, but I can tell it is eating her up inside because it comes out in other ways. And now she has tried using the threat of taking the kids away to gain leverage. It must anger her to no end to realize that a responsible, loving father just doesn't skulk quietly away from his children just because that is supposed to be according to her script.
So even if xW consciously realizes that she is still a very unhappy and often miserable person, she will still blame that entirely on the fact that her "evil" H didn't crawl off into a hole and die like she had intended but instead he had the
audacity to actually try to be involved in her children's lives.
You see, I'm just so
evil -- I only dare to be involved with my S's and to show my love to them just to piss her off. Oh! Can you believe it!?? The nerve!
<Bugs Bunny impersonation> Ain't I a stinker? </impersonation>
I don't believe that God causes these things to happen "for our own good" by any means, but that he can bring redemption out of them in spite of everything.
No, it was not God's original intent that we suffer the consequences of Man's sinful behaviors, the negative results of giving us free will. But He will use these trials and tribulations to help mold us, to use the flames of adversity to forge stronger metals and drive out the slag of impurities and to temper our steel. It is a strange irony that it takes stress to make us grow stronger.
so I'll ask you the same question I was often asked by parishioners in crisis:
just how strong do I have to be?
Hello, Irish,
I've missed you. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Yes, xW's hate-filled response to these revelations is just so maddeningly hypocritical. You would think she would stop and realize her own culpability. Not even counting her marital infidelity, which trumps anything I had ever done, if you just consider how she violated our marital covenant just by bringing her mother into our home and then conspired with MIL begin to spy on me and my sons and to gather information to try to justify cutting me out of my own family, you can begin to see how utterly without moral conscious she has become. I should have known when MIL began to actually manufacture dirt on me that my M was already in jeopardy (I found out MIL had been telling xW that I had neglected my S's when the reality was exactly opposite. xW chose to believe MIL's lies and wouldn't even give me the opportunity to defend myself. I was quietly being judged, sentenced and executed by their own private kangaroo court.)
So now that xW realizes I have known all along about the degree of her treachery, she's crying foul. Calling me a liar, threatening me with criminal charges, and even compared me to John Gotti (I must say I got a bit of chuckle out of the irony of that one.)
Still, I really do not wish her ill. I just want to be left alone and to have as little to do with her as possible. xW has decided to become just as vile and hate-filled as her mother has become. And I cannot reconcile that kind of person with the woman I thought I had married, so the less I deal with her the better off I will be from now on.
so I'll ask you the same question I was often asked by parishioners in crisis:
just how strong do I have to be?
I don't know the answer to that one. Only God knows. I really wish I didn't have to be put through the fire many more times myself. Do I really need my Damascene steel be folded another hundred times? Wouldn't 400 times be enough? Why 600? Why 800? For that matter why would I need that much Damascening anyway? How much annealing does God expect?
I then ask, Just how perfect is perfect?
And then I realize how far off the mark I really am. I'm nowhere near to perfection; I'm still barely an ingot of impure iron. I've got so much more that could be done to work my life into what God might think it should be. Big sigh.
The hardest lesson to learn when you are a Christian is that the moment you ask God to make you into a better servant is when you are really asking God to put you through these trials. Be careful for what you ask for.
Still, unlike the non-believer who still goes through their own ups and downs of life, we have the comfort in knowing that God is there with us, leading us.
I have to vent, folks. I am now incensed beyond anything xW has ever done to me.
I got back a few minutes ago from a parent-teacher function at S8's school. Not surprisingly, xW showed up there tonight too. She was ever as distant as she has ever been since the bomb. Not a big surprise either.
I called to talk to my S's on the way back. S8 had just gotten out of the bathtub when he took the call. He told me that his grandmother was not the one babysitting them, but "Mr. OM" was babysitting he and his little brother, playing Wii games with them.
OM babysitting my children was bad enough. But it gets worse.
S8 told me that "Mr. OM" was giving S8 and S4 their baths!
I was dumb-founded. xW was so reckless that she would allow a strange man unrelated to our sons bathe our two small boys? I tried to recover, fumbling for words to keep calm, but I was shocked and infuriated. S8 said that his mother was now saying her good-byes to OM as he and I spoke.
I did manage to finish out the call under control but part of me was considering turning my car around and going down there to do some bodily harm.
I want to tear the both of these two so-called people a new one. This has got to stop -- this sh*tbag needs to keep away from my sons and keep his hands to himself, or I'm going to snap and do I don't know what. My ex had better learn real quick what to be actually scared of -- nothing she has done to date, not the infidelity, not the divorce nor the treachery even have had a chance of making me a physical threat to her safety, despite her assertions to family and friends otherwise. Such is my commitment to Christ.
But
this, should my S's be in
any way harmed because of her recklessness... I might very well
snap. God help me.
I reported this to my L. I doubt there really is anything the court will say or do if no real laws have been broken yet. This is a sick, lost world.
NC--I'm so sorry!! wow--yes, you have every right to be as concerned as you are. good opportunity to set some serious boundaries with their mother, asap.
and you're right--everything else, all the pain and grief up to this point pale in comparison to how we feel when our kids become involved, and we feel powerless to protect them.
NCB,
I sympathise with your frustration.
If any foul play becomes of it just know you can get a permanent standing order of protection barring OM any contact with the kids. And that will play hugely in your favor when it comes to cutsody. But, if you do anything or say anything rash in the meantime, it will only play against you.
I'm sure your attorney has told you to journalize everything. So make note of it.
Unfortunately, you're right, there's not a whole lot that can be done about aside from a civil conversation with your XW requesting it not happen again.
@##$@%@# grrrr!! that is infuriating NC, I'd be angry too.
Other than him being a jerk by staying with a married woman, are there other issues which could count as evidence that he is a threat? of course no one will really know who he really is, but I'm trying to think of reasons that might point that he is a safe person near your kids.
I reported this to my L. I doubt there really is anything the court will say or do if no real laws have been broken yet. This is a sick, lost world.
NC, I'm so sorry about this. Do you think your X knew this happened? I think the L was a good idea, but should you maybe have a short email about this (I say b/c easier to control emotions by email than in person esp. in your case.) like if she knew about this. If this was me, I would be upset by it as a mom. I would not want a boyfriend of mine doing that. Also, I was thinking if she did know maybe you could deal with setting it up as setting up rules in both households with bfs and gfs. I mean I'm thinking your wife would be SHOCKED & HORRIFIED if you had a gf doing this with your boys and she found out. Don't you think? So address it maybe as a negotiation that you would both agree to, which certainly I would think you would both want? Karen
(((((NC)))))
So sorry your xw continues to be such selfish lunatic. You do not deserve this my friend.
Hello, all,
I appreciate all of your thoughts and your support. My L confirmed that there was little that can be done regarding the OM -- and has suggested that I wait until we talk to the parenting coordinator (PC) before raising the issue. The problem is that the hearing to so much as assign the PC won't be any earlier than Sept. 19 -- that means I need to document what I can and bring my laundry list with me.
I've said nothing to xW about this. I got my S's on Friday, and it wasn't long before S8 was offering an excuse for OM giving them baths while their mother was away -- and yes, this is just more evidence of coached answers spilling from my S's lips, even when I never asked for them. S8 said that "Mr. OM" let them both, even S4, wash themselves, without his help. I am certain that xW is trying to get our S's to cover for her terrible judgement.
My biggest beef with xW, even if nothing truly harmful happened, is that xW allowed an adult male unrelated to our S's to both babysit our two small boys and to give them baths all while she was away -- and without bothering to clear it with me first.
And to answer your question, Karen, yes, xW knew this happened and probably welcomed it -- I am sure she relished having "her man" obsequiously doing her bidding for her. She's too arrogant to think that she could ever judge her lover so incorrectly, that she could ever miss that her BF might possibly be a sex offender. OM may not be anything of the sort, but I don't know the guy -- I've never even met the slimebag. I do know there's something not quite right about a guy in his forties who has no children of his own but who has a history of pursing women with children from prior R and attempting to get as close to them as their mother. He M'ed at least twice before to such women. He's obviously the sort who will make a play for the kids to woo the mother.
I also wonder if xW is aware of her BF's MO --but even if she is then she is likely to have glossed over it, rationalizing the implications away in her warped mind. "He's just so wonderful with children," is all she'd allow herself to think.
It bothers me that xW doesn't have the common sense to know you just don't allow someone you're dating into your children's lives unless and until you know for certain something permanent is to come of it. She pulls no punches if she ever thinks I might be failing to practice discretion with our S's, and yet she now appears to be worse than I ever could be.
I will be watching this guy. I don't like hearing how he continues to roughhouse with my S's, how he is physically affectionate with my S's and how he continues to work his way into a parental role in their lives. It just is not sound or proper; it's wrong.
If I ever find out proof-positive that OM or anyone else in xW's cadre of waywards have done anything to harm either of my two S's, I will make their lives a living hell.
NCB.
Stay cool and calm. You have a right to be upset, but tread on knowing you are the rational mind in this situation.
Whatever you do, DO NOT 'grill' the kids for info, if they volunteer info, acknowledge their statement and try to shift out to a different subject. I know it's difficult to keep emotions in check when it regards teh kids, but it's something you must do.
Oh, and as much you would want to think they wouldn't, they will make things sound worse than they really are, I learned this the hard way.
Thanks, DDay,
I am remaining calm. I agree with what you're saying. I was just venting here. I will just file this all away and continue observing.
And worry not, I do not grill my S's -- I usually don't have to, as S8 sings about anything and everything without being bidden and without any prodding. Often when I wish I wasn't hearing what I was hearing. It's not practical to let S8 in on surprises, for example, as they will not remain secret for very long once he knows. It is just a part of his nature.
Well, my S12 being special needs often times forgets that I wish to not hear anything of OM and slips up and makes a comment about him or what they did. I used to get bent up pretty bad, but I'm coming around on it. Granted nothing like this ever happened. As off the wall XW is there is no way she would allow that.
NC,
It never gets easy hearing about the OP who helped with the downfall of our marriages, does it?
I guess we have that in common too, DDay. S8 is also a special needs kid.
Hi, Yoyo,
I would have a hard time with this if any strange person were trying to get this close to my kids -- the fact that xW's BF is also the OM/adultery partner just makes it an order of magnitude worse.
I don't think I will ever get to a point where this won't bother me.
Yes, you will. In time, dreaded time, but it does get to a point when you'll realize that you have no control over what happens under her watch, and thinking that you can have that control will do nothing more than pronlong the 'healing process' and keep you bouncing back and forth between all isues instead of closing them out one at a time.
xW sent me an email last night (two actually, the other on a different matter). The judge had signed our consent decree early last week, making our parenting agreement the "law". xW specifically agreed to settle her lawsuit and leaving our custody at 50-50 -- if I made some concessions and agreed to additional terms to be put into this agreement. One of those terms she asked for was that we both agreed to use a parenting coordinator (PC) to settle disputes we cannot settle amicably between us. Since my own L had offered the possibility of a PC during our original negotiations back in February, I had no problem with that particular requirement.
We got notice yesterday that the hearing to assign the PC was requested for Sept. 18. In response we found out that xW's first choice of PC is seeking 4k in retainer fees to be split between us. Ouch. I knew this candidate was going to be expensive and this just proves it.
Last night's email from xW was another doozy. She is now asking me whether a PC is really necessary if she and I can manage to just get along. Obviously she recognizes the expense of her choice in (1) requiring a PC and (2) the particular person she chose for this role.
I haven't responded to her. It is just more crazy-making nonsense from my former spouse. She was the one who wanted the D, who wanted to break off from negotiations when we failed to agree on child care provisions, wanted to file the custody suit against me, wanted to spend beau comp dollars on L fees, and then wanted to settle if I agreed to her stipulations including the PC. Now, she wants to waive the PC, even after we have signed the agreement?
I give up trying to figure her out. Just when I think she can't get any more ridiculous in her line of thinking, she does something to flabbergast me all over again. It's just so pathetic and disconcerting that I want to cry in hysteria sometimes. The pity is that I am so darn broke now because of her selfish attempts to eliminate me from our S's lives -- I entertain the idea of skipping the PC, but I don't think we really have a choice at this point. If only she had the wherewithal to think before she acts, neither of us might be in these straits.
So much waste, so much anguish, so much senselessness.
Eventually I must get to where I am numb to her. I sincerely feel I will get there, some day in the near future.
With my JPA, which is supposed to be pretty much a text book written agreement, if XW and I can not come up with a ammicable solution to a dispute (in writing) then one of us can go back to the court and ask a mediation be recommended to resolve the dispute (at little to no cost) and if that route doesn't work than it's matter for a judge to decide.
Edit - but no, mine never ceases to amaze me either, at least now I can laugh about instead of get in hysterics.
(((((nc))))) I am so sorry that you are yet going through yet more crap with her. I don't blame you for being upset at all. I would be if I were in that situation!
She continues to cause anguish wherever she goes.
Im thinking of you.
Thanks, DDay, Irish,
I am not, however, in anguish or hysterics. In fact, I am far more cool and calm in my reaction to this than I would have been even two weeks ago. But I do shake my head and roll my eyes upward, feeling the residual pangs of regret that things have turned out so. xW has become the only real pain in my heart now of days, and even that is greatly diminished. Not even the increasing debt and financial burden I am now under due to her actions have given me all that much call for alarm -- there is now a part of me that realizes that I can only do so much myself, and God can see me through the rest.
Part of me is even laughing at it silently as I try to face it -- maybe that's the hysteria so mentioned. Lots of peanut butter and simpler meals for in these next few months, and yet I'm not worried. It is what it is.
I hear ya NCB, When I pick up my boys tonight I'm expecting XW to go off again about not swaping wekends to accomodate her fun time. I'm already prepping myself to not explode when I hear one key word "inconvenience", mainly I'm not switching just to inconvenience her. Pssh, honey you have no idea what the word even means, let alone live it every waking moment of every day. Still trying to figure out how she has her income, OM's income, and a chunk of my income, yet is broke all the time?
Yesterday (Friday) was xW's birthday.
I said nothing and did nothing to acknowledge it, other than to remind my S's this morning before they were to see her. See, I have given up trying to be nice towards her -- cordial, yes; nice, no. It gets me nowhere, has only gotten me nowhere. So I don't bother. Not any more. Forgiveness on my part is one thing, but wasting my time and breath in fruitless acts that have always proven to be counterproductive is just not something I relish.
I have pondered how much things have changed. Three years ago I would not have even dreamed of ignoring such a special occasion for xW.
I was told by S8 that OM was going to help his mother celebrate her b'day. Not unexpected at all, but it was the way S8 said it, saying "Of course, Mr. OM was going to show up at his mother's place to help celebrate." As if it was the most natural thing in the world.
That is the only thing that pains me about any of this -- that my own S's are brainwashed into accepting xW's warped perception of reality, where the usurper who helped destroy our family is automatically assumed to belong in this picture at all, as a natural and expected participant.
OM can have the wretched harlot. But the cost to my children's sense of right and wrong is just too much.
I had to vent that.
(((((((((nc)))))))
Hey send me your email address if you still have mine. I lost some of my contacts.
Thanks...
That is the only thing that pains me about any of this -- that my own S's are brainwashed into accepting xW's warped perception of reality, where the usurper who helped destroy our family is automatically assumed to belong in this picture at all, as a natural and expected participant.
OM can have the wretched harlot. But the cost to my children's sense of right and wrong is just too much.
I had to vent that.
Of course. I do think in some ways AS kids don't maybe get 100% of the understanding that nt kids have. But, I still have realized my kids do have understanding, and I'm sure yours too. D9 (I think she was D8 though) once told me Daddy would love you again if he was nice, but he's not nice. And when we were watching a TV show (Chuck) where the main characters had dysfunctional dads, I think one left and the other was present but a criminal; S15 (14 at the time) said well it's better to have a bad dad, than no dad. Sounds like he's thought about that on his own.
I know God will turn this to good. They have you in their life to show them a good role model. I also think as they get older and less dependent on your W, they are going to realize more and more clearly what's going on. Karen
Yesterday (Friday) was xW's birthday.
I said nothing and did nothing to acknowledge it, other than to remind my S's this morning before they were to see her. See, I have given up trying to be nice towards her -- cordial, yes; nice, no. It gets me nowhere, has only gotten me nowhere. So I don't bother. Not any more. Forgiveness on my part is one thing, but wasting my time and breath in fruitless acts that have always proven to be counterproductive is just not something I relish.
I have pondered how much things have changed. Three years ago I would not have even dreamed of ignoring such a special occasion for xW.
I was told by S8 that OM was going to help his mother celebrate her b'day. Not unexpected at all, but it was the way S8 said it, saying "Of course, Mr. OM was going to show up at his mother's place to help celebrate." As if it was the most natural thing in the world.
That is the only thing that pains me about any of this -- that my own S's are brainwashed into accepting xW's warped perception of reality, where the usurper who helped destroy our family is automatically assumed to belong in this picture at all, as a natural and expected participant.
OM can have the wretched harlot. But the cost to my children's sense of right and wrong is just too much.
I had to vent that.
I'm so sorry. And I can so relate to what you're saying here. This is the hardest part of the whole painful mess, I think.
Hey, Irish,
You've got mail. (Hope my contact info is up-to-date.)
Hi, Karen,
My two are still quite young and impressionable. S8 has AS, as you know, and is a couple of years behind in his emotional development compared to his peers. S4 is NT (as far as we can tell). Together they are still somewhat succeptable to the constant influence that their mother and their mother's mother (the nasty MIL) inflict on them every day. Even with their own already strong and developing wills, it is not surprising that they accept xW's story and the values she places upon OM and his family and friends.
I do realize that some day they will be teenagers, and then young men -- sooner than I would like or expect. And, yes, I do realize they will form their own opinions about their mother and her actions and her value system.
But I also know that she is trying to undermine their developing foundations -- now is the time that the very base of their lives and of their own value systems are being formed. If she can establish in their minds that D is not only a "necessary evil" but also a benefit to achieving one's own "happiness" -- and that the collateral damage is meaningless as long as one saves one's self, then the discovery of their mother's selfish ways and the real cost to their own lives will not have the same impact when they do come of age. They will have already been benumbed and made callous by her own example.
I find myself confronted by xW's constant effort to buy my kids off. She keeps promising them new toys and more visits to theme parks and special events, under the pretense of eliciting their good behaviors. If I reciprocate, two things happen. (1) It continues a never ending "arms race" with each parent trying to one-up the other, and I am already struggling financially because of her D and her lawsuit against me. (2) It deadens my S's fledgling value systems, turning them into materialist opportunists who can only think of what they get out of any deal. It undermines the very reason I am compelled to father them, which is to instill my values and faith in them, to give them the foundation they need to live and thrive in the midst of this lost world.
I already hear in my S's words, how they find the easier, more rewarding worldly path their mother holds out to them to be all that more desirable. It's almost to the point that I'd have almost welcomed that xW and I were both fiscally bankrupt and scraping to get by. Better that the both of us limped along in providing for our boys than to have them accept the world's materialistic ideals.
So, I am gravely concerned that the battle to secure my S's spiritual health will have been lost before they reach the age they will make their own way in life.
I really hope I am just over-thinking this. But when even the children of parents who have done everything right are still lost to the World, I have all the more to worry.
Thanks, Huzh,
I know you too know what I mean. We all can relate.
Ooops, guess not, Tal, I got a bounce back from google mail as undeliverable.
I send out correspondence using my a o l account (they're a dot-com) using my old screen name metamancer.
<Hint-hint, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more, say no more.>
done i hope.. make sure to check S P A M....
Got it! Thanks, Irish.
Sent a reply.
NCB,
My XW plays the 'one-up' game and she go right ahead. My boys, all be it a little bit older understand my financial situation and we make the best of what I have to offer. This weekend alone, if it weren't for a dinner gone horribly wrong I would have cleared out only $50 in expenses for the 3 days.
It's the simple little things that excite them. Sure a pizza buffet on Friday ($5 per serson), then Saturday an dmost importantly we all made breakfast (eggs, bacon, pancakes, OJ all for $10?), but everybody participated and made something, group project. Then the zoo, (would have been free, but after being towed 2 weeks ago I opted for the $25 parking fee for peace of mind). Then dinner out after zoo, didn't plan on it, but my sister who went to the zoo said she'd split the bill, wouldn't have been bad, but the waitress kept putting the pitchers of soda directly in front of S12, much to my shock they $8 a piece,
. Then Sunday, community day in the yard, every body pitched in, then S11 took the helm at the grill then we watched a movie utnil it was time to go.
Not much there, but they had a great time none the less as it was things done together. Sure XW takes them to the amusment park. But, dumps them in a line and does what ever it is she does. Wow, that's a lot of fun huh? She NEVER makes them breakfast. I know she finds it astonishing that I learned how. And that's something in itself, I learned, and then incorporated them, that is FAMILY bonding. XW can order all the McDonald's sandwiches she wants. The love of family is not there.
Xw can shower them with 'gifts' all she wants. But it's not the things they ask for and could care less. They've been asking her for new shoes since FEBRUARY! Finally my cousin and I had enough and scoured through the sales papers and guess what? Took them to the store and got them shoes and they were so happy. Granted S12 already wrecked his, but S11 wipes his down practically every day so that he can go to school tomorrow and show him the new shoes that his dad took him to get.
i could ramble on and on, I think I made my gist?
So, I am gravely concerned that the battle to secure my S's spiritual health will have been lost before they reach the age they will make their own way in life.
I really hope I am just over-thinking this. But when even the children of parents who have done everything right are still lost to the World, I have all the more to worry.
I worry the same stuff too. Will they follow their dad's example or mine? Please let it be mine!!! But I honestly do have faith that when they get older if you provide a good role model for them, that they will choose the right example. Your boys are young now; I think you need to give them time.
I know sometimes there are biological factors (predispositions to alcohol, etc.), but I do think sometimes if kids turn out for the worst, maybe they didn't have the perfect parents it appears. I don't think there are any parents who do everything right; I certainly haven't and you know my X hasn't. But if you keep providing that foundation for them and your role model, I know your boys will be fine... Karen
Karen
DDay,
I need to follow my own advice that I have been repeating to others. I need to focus on those things that are within my capacity to control and to let go of those things that I cannot. If xW wants to continue this war of bribing my S's and I find I cannot fiscally counter her, then I have to accept that that is just part of the terrain I am dealing with. I will simply do the best with what I've got. If that should prove to be insufficient to keep my kids from being swayed by materialism, then what can I say except that I did my best.
However, this is easier said than done, of course.
Karen,
As I said above to DDay, we can only do our best with what we are given. I'm not trying to sound fatalistic, at least I don't think so. We all need to understand there are just some things we cannot help.
I realized that am forgetting one of my favorite sayings, from the Dirty Harry movies, "A man's gotta' know his limitations."
(On the other hand, I say all of this now, but don't be surprised if I get worked up over this again later, with some other new development in this drama.)
Nc... it happens to all of us... ~the roller coaster~
Yep follow your own word NCB.
As I posted in detail in my thread, the little things matter, surprised my boys by meeting them at school for their first day, XW was nowhere to be found, great parenting on her end!
dday is right... those are the things that count, and your boys will remember. Trust me.
I found out from S8 this morning that xW decided to not only exclude me from going to a parent orientation of S4's new preschool that was held this past Thursday night -- or to even tell me anything about it -- but she did take her mother, the wicked MIL, with her to boot.
AND, to top it off, since evil MIL went too, xW did not ask me to watch our S's but AGAIN had the OM watch them both and give them baths while she was out.
This is the second time (that I know of) that she has entrusted our S's to a strange adult man. ("Friend" my arse! I don't know this dung-bag.)
I finally sent an email letter stating my protest of her poor decisions and actions in this -- for whatever that's worth. And I copied my L.
I finally sent an email letter stating my protest of her poor decisions and actions in this -- for whatever that's worth. And I copied my L.
If she keeps that up, I know that's a factor in granting custody. I was told if I did stuff like that, keeping info from X, that would be a factory in custody. If she keeps that up, I would discuss with your lawyer about possibly changing custody to you being primary. Keep a chart or something on this kind of stuff. Plus, it's just poor parenting; kids need both their parents!!!
When they get older, one good thing is both my kids' schools have email lists that you sign up for and they email you with dates like that. Also, do they have a website--the preschool? If not, maybe you could suggest it so they can post important dates on their website? I'm sure you're not the only parent that's happened to...unfortunately.
Hi, Karen,
If xW were to keep this up, yes, I would have to rethink everything. I really don't want to think about trying to do the same thing she did to us -- which is to try to take our kids away from the other parent. I really don't want to do anything that would hurt my boys, of course -- then again, I have to weigh that against her actions, and if they should ever prove to be the greater harm, then I will need to begin thinking of the unthinkable.
Sadly, I can no longer rule out any sort of behavior as beyond my xW's ability to undertake. But until she does actually start moving in a given direction I'd rather just not go there. (If that makes any sense, what I just said.)
<journaling>
So far, this has been a quite enjoyable weekend for me and my two S's. We spent a little time at the pool yesterday (even though the water is already getting too darn cold -- where the blazes did our Summer heat go? It just seemed to shut off entirely this week.)
Today, after Church the boys insisted they didn't want to go out and swim or hike like I had planned. Instead, they just wanted to veg' out and stay indoors. I had our swimsuits and towels all gathered, but they both planted themselves in my living room and held out the Star Wars DVD's to me. I pointed out to the beautiful weather we've been having, but my little Jedi fans were stubborn. I gave in.
In retrospect, I guess we needed a little down-time. We got to enjoy the time together, father and sons. And even though I've seen these movies dozens of times (to the point I found myself starting to doze off a couple of times) I got to experience some of the more exciting points again with their fresh eyes. I know they've both seen all of these movies before too, but somehow it seemed new to them all the same, and their excitement was infectious.
I love my little Star Wars fans. My little Padawan learners. They're both often a huge handful, but at times like these, such a huge joy.
So we had our little vegitative down-time today, a day of rest. And it was good.
I really don't want to think about trying to do the same thing she did to us -- which is to try to take our kids away from the other parent. I really don't want to do anything that would hurt my boys, of course -- then again, I have to weigh that against her actions, and if they should ever prove to be the greater harm, then I will need to begin thinking of the unthinkable.
I would never suggest you try to cut your X out of the boys' lives. I just meant, I'm kind of the primary parent in my children's lives, and I think I should stay that way. I am always letting X see the kids whenever he wants and I email him re: all activities/things going on in the kids' lives. I don't believe my X would do the same; not maybe out of maliciousness, but more that he just doesn't think about it. I think in your X 's case it sounds like she planned that, which to me is really bad. If you're the primary parent, you could request the teachers copy you on everything too. I was thinking of that more as a way that you keep informed in the loop and not cut out yourself, not that you would do that to your X. B/c it is bad for the kids when either parent is cut out like that I think.
Sounds like fun with your boys!!! Sometimes veg out days are so good!!!
hey NC, sorry to hear she is being such an @rse. I personally talked to my d6's teacher and made sure I too get any info pertaining school work/activities . Guess you'll just have to make sure the teachers know to let you know of anything pertaining the boys since xw is acting her show size.
Ahhh, star wars, my son is an avid fan as well, we used to watch episode I over and over when he was 5, lol, now he's onto Lego SW, oy! his collection is growing and growing
Prayers your way)))))
I would never suggest you try to cut your X out of the boys' lives.
Why not? It's what I'm thinking about? LOL.
Yes, the boys and I had a pretty good weekend.
The only fly in the ointment is xW. She and I have again been trading barbs via email over her shenanigans with the preschool and OM. She is insisting I am insane and that she notified me back in February of all pertinent information. It's all B-S, as even my L asked for the information and did not get anything but verbal estimates and no documentation.
I am struggling hard with forgiveness right now. I just don't seem to ever be able to turn the corner on how much xW's betrayal has hurt me -- everything she does today just keeps the wounds still open and fresh. Our bible study group is beginning a new series on Betrayal and Forgiveness this week -- I am feeling I
really need to hear it.
Hey NCB,
I hear ya. XW and I registered the kids for school back in July and when I was there I gave the school and district office all my contact info as I am to be notified of everything. Apparently I'll have to get tougher with them as I have not received anything to date and XW will not confirm when and what time orientation is. Heck, it's already a week into school and she has yet to provide with who their teachers are, what room number, etc...
It would certantly be adventagous to my sitch if XW had e-mail. We always were able to communicate our differences in writting and quickly resolve them.
There is certainly an advantage in having an email trail to refer back to -- it cuts down on the he-said-she-said. However even when you have documentation to back you up, the WAS will still find someway to try to deny their culpability or the words they've used. It can be maddening -- I guess that's why they say don't argue with crazy people.
I had another email exchange with xW again last night and this morning. She insists she's always on the up-and-up regarding communicating with me on our kids. She claims my complaints are just personal attacks driven by hatred and bitterness against her and the OM. She said that OM is a part of "their" lives (meaning her and the boys) and I need to just accept that. At the same time we're also quibbling over the childcare costs and figures she sent summary information for last night -- but I still want documentation and not her here-say.
I have been trying to convey to her that she is risking the emotional (if not physical) security of our S's by introducing OM into their lives. She just won't see the potential damage she can inflict on them by forcing this stranger on them as a de facto father-figure. Even if he happens to not be some child-abuser (and I have no assurances he isn't -- his MO is to involve himself in the lives of other people's children; this just creeps me out) the emotional turmoil could be great, if this person should suddenly go away after a falling out.
What is xW's response? She says, "Hm. You sound like you'd rather OM become the boys step-father sooner rather than later."
I responded to her bey saying that if her foolishness only affected herself alone, she could go right ahead. She just doesn't realize that I am no longer concerned with what she does anymore -- only where her actions and behaviors affect S8 and S4 would I bother to involve myself.
It would have been so much easier if we did not have kids between us -- I could have cut her out of my life forever, be done with her once and for all.
heh, on second thought, maybe it is a good thing we can't e-mail.
It would have been so much easier if we did not have kids between us -- I could have cut her out of my life forever, be done with her once and for all.
I think that often, too. Feel guilty for that, but I guess can't help it; life would be easier. I guess just try to deal with kids issues and not get sidetrack on OP conversations or anything not related. Yeah, do as I say, not as I do.
I do think things will get better. Maybe some of our X's anger will lessen as time goes on--we can hope right???
I've asked myself if I had to do it all over again, would I? Was dealing with xW's treachery and deceit worth having my S's? I'd have to say yes. I think my S's are worth all the h*ll their mother has put me through -- I only wish I had been forewarned before hand all the same. At least then I could have braced myself for the full impact.
Despite the pain, my children are worth it. They're the primary reason for what I do, why I persist. If I place God at the top of my priorities, it is because of that He expects that my S's be placed an immediate second in that order of importance.
But it reminds me of one of the barbs that exW sent me in an email last week. She said, among a bunch of other nonsense, "I wish I could have made kids with a sane person."
I chuckled at the irony of that and sent her a reply telling her it was unwise of her to bring up the question of sanity -- and said "People in glass houses, if you know what I mean."
nc~ I couldn't agree more with you, or if it was possible just
to have the kids
Hope you are doing ok.
She said, among a bunch of other nonsense, "I wish I could have made kids with a sane person."
That's horrible. My H can be mean, but even he doesn't say stuff that brutal. I don't know what to say about that. I've thought before she likes to push your buttons and get you upset. So try not to react to her garbage/spew. But that would be hard sometimes! I'm very sorry about this. (((((NC))))))
Yes, she was undoubtedly trying to push my buttons. But the irony of her comment just gave me this sardonic chuckle -- I was literally chuckling/growling while I fired off a response to that statement.
I might have been at one time easily diagnosed with severe depression in those last years of our M, but if each of of us both were now put to a psychiatric test I know she'd come out none too kindly. You see, in formulating my affidavit to the court for the custody suit we just settled, I went back over all the correspondence between her and myself over these years and all of the other incriminating evidence I had gathered on her, including all the emails between her and the OM that I had collected from the time of the bomb. In putting it all together, I came to some major conclusions about xW that I had refused to see or was just unprepared to see for too long. Before she ever knew me she had been carrying around a huge amount of emotional and psychological baggage, hang-ups we all thought she had put behind her prior to getting involved with me, but which I now recognize she has returned fully to with this OM. The fact that she seems to have suddenly reverted back to prior behaviors so easily tells me she is really far too messed up for me to have ever been able to salvage our M. She is both deeply and subtly sick. If this is the way she intends to be, then I really want nothing to do with her anyway. I did/do love her, but if she is really this other person, then she is beyond my ability to love. I have given her over to God and will let Him deal with her instead.
So, yes it was a cruel thing to say to me, but in so doing she opens herself up to scrutiny she cannot withstand. It would be like the Gosselin's lecturing you or me on fidelity. And believe me, while I might shouldn't ever respond to her spew, what I did send in this instance was very restrained; there are so awfully many other choice words I could have delivered. (My first thought was that I wish I hadn't chosen an unfaithful wh*re to bear my children. But that would be sinking to her level.)
Eventually I hope I will achieve the indifference towards her that I need.
Thanks.
(My first thought was that I wish I hadn't chosen an unfaithful wh*re to bear my children. But that would be sinking to her level.)
NC, didn't think it was possible, but you just cracked me up with that.
You know what I'm thinking is that whole projection thing again; like my X accusing me of being controlling; your X accusing you of craziness; b/c she is herself.
If I managed to give you a smile, Karen, then I am very pleased.
I am still trying to find the humor in this insanity -- sort of like mining for rare and tiny nuggets of gold amidst all the muck and dirt that gets dumped on us. They're there, and we just have to keep looking.
And, on the projection thing -- yes, that's it exactly. Eccentricity and
serious psychological disorders run throughout her mother's side of the family, and she
knows that all too well.
That's why I made the particularly discreet reference to "glass houses".
(((((NC)))))
I do think your X wins the prize for being the looniest!
(((((NC)))))
I do think your X wins the prize for being the looniest!
I think towards the end of the year we should have an "awards" ceremony.
I'm not quite so sure my ex would win overall. She hides her neuroses pretty well -- has everybody thinking she's still an "angel". (She fooled me for over 19 years -- but she couldn't fool my IC however, and I know she wouldn't fool anyone else wise to such antics either.)
Still, if there's an award for the most
covertly and
stealthily insane, my xW would take it hands down.
<Journaling>
Today I shelled out $2k that I don't really have and can't really afford for the parenting coordinator's retainer. This really hurts fiscally at this time. But it can't be helped. More debt because of someone's selfishness.
...
I forgot to mention that on Saturday I went to a new bible study that my friends and I are starting up, after a summer hiatus. It is on Ed Young's "Betrayal and Forgiveness" series. So far it looks very good. My friend "M" that I met through DivorceCare played hostess again -- she pulled a sneak attack on me then, inviting one of her girlfriends over for me in particular to meet. "D" seemed very nice, attractive too. But afterwards I jokingly warned M that I was going to start calling her "Emma" if she keeps this up, not giving me fair warning first. (You ladies out there who like Jane Austen will know what I mean -- exW absolutely loved that stuff and I got my full fill over the years.)
I'm not placing too much into this, however, in case any of you are wondering. It was just a casual first meeting, nothing more. We talked a while, that's all. We'll see whether Ms. "D" shows up at our next bible study meeting, which because of everyone's schedules is not until next month.
...
Oh, and I mentioned in other folk's threads that I had been talking with a young lady of 35 who I had originally met a couple of years ago when S8 was in soccer. I ran into her again this summer and we seemed to hit it up fairly well. But eventually I could see that wasn't really going to work out -- she could see it too. She is extremely fit and very attractive but other than our kids being the same ages, I feel like she was/is just a bit too young for me -- or I'm a bit too old. Not to say I think someone in her age group is incapable of being more mature, in which things might have been more compatible, it's that in this case I could just feel the age difference more-so than usual. We just didn't have quite as much in common other than the kids and our extracurricular activities.
On the other hand I am worried that women closer to my own age aren't really going to feel they have as much in common with me -- by now, most of their children are all grown whereas I still have two little ones. They're worried about getting their youngest kids into college while I am still anticipating getting my youngest into kindergarten. I am 46 now and yet I have a hard time associating my thinking with my peers who have college-age kids. (But perhaps with the right lady I would make the adjustment. I don't know.)
It's just a weird predicament I find myself in as I contemplate entering the "dating scene" again. It's crazy enough as it is without this being caught between two worlds like this. So I think I'm going to just take my time and just live my life, and if God has someone in store for me I will find her when He says the time is right.
More debt because of someone's selfishness.
Been thinking about the PC and all the needless expense. xW has been grousing about it too. Her last email on the subject, sent this week, had a statement that had me thinking -- not the way she intended however. She said, about the retainer:
The only reason this is needed is your paranoia. Can't you just "Live & Let Live"?
I didn't respond to it, not directly (just acknowledged that the time to pay the retainer was due). Privately I snorted at the "Live & Let Live" jibe. Obviously, she herself can't follow the very principles she holds up for me to comply with. Transference again.
But then "Live and Let Live" suggests that one practice forgiveness. On that score I have myself been struggling. Michele says Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves, and I believe this. It corroborates every other teaching I have encountered on the subject. I want to "Live & Let Live", to forgive and move onward -- it is just very hard with the
continual trespasses from the ex.
One day at a time. I'm working on it.
NCB,
I guess the only question I have is:
Do you really think the PC is going to have any affect on anything?
In reading your sitch and XW's demeaner, I think not. I thought that my XW attending the manditory parenting through divorce session would be an eye opener for my X. Not only did I think it would open her eyes to how this is impacting our kids, but give her some insight on why I sometimes act and react they way I do as I come from a D'd household. Much to my astonishment, it did nothing, zero impact. Quite dissapointing.
On the forgiveness, yes it is a gift you give yourself. The reasons I am angered and flustered with XW and OM now is not them being together, they can have each other. The b/s they put the kids through, that's another story and I don't know how to deal with it at this time.
In reading your sitch and XW's demeaner, I think not. I thought that my XW attending the manditory parenting through divorce session would be an eye opener for my X. Not only did I think it would open her eyes to how this is impacting our kids, but give her some insight on why I sometimes act and react they way I do as I come from a D'd household. Much to my astonishment, it did nothing, zero impact. Quite dissapointing.
I'm sure this had some impact. It was probably filed way back in the sub-conscious somewhere to be faced at another time and in small doses. It's all about planting a seed, backing off and being patient. There are no instant results.
Well Sg,
I'd love to think that. In the 4 plus months since, only a weed has grown, to tell our oldest son who has enough on his plate that he's adopted and that OM can be his 'daddy' now.
I really have no illusions that a PC is going to have any positive influence on xW. His role is simply to act as an arbiter in disputes about our S's. He's supposed to just be a referee.
xW, on the other hand, has these delusions that the PC is there merely to rubber-stamp her own decisions, and fully expects him to call me to task for interfering with what she feels are her rights as a parent -- that she, the mother, just naturally makes all the decisions concerning the children and the father should just play along. Several times she has warned me that the parenting coordinator is not going to look too kindly upon a given action or decision I have made, especially when it is counter to her wishes. I say nothing in response, because it's just stupid nonsense.
And while a PC might possibly have some influence our continual disputes, helping to attenuate xW's attacks, I know that in the end, xW will not really be swayed or deterred from her path. Nothing has done so as yet, and I naturally doubt a psychologist PC is going to have any better luck. Thus I fear this is yet more money down a rathole. But perhaps with her willful behavior fully documented by an outside professional, I will have ammunition in store should she go the litigious route again. We'll see.
Dday, your ex really needs to be called to task for using your son's adopted status to deliver a psychological blow to him. That is just nasty and unfair -- like I said before, I consider that abuse. I can't believe anyone would do such a thing.
And I hear you on the OM as "daddy" thing. That one gets my goat too.
Well Sg,
I'd love to think that. In the 4 plus months since, only a weed has grown, to tell our oldest son who has enough on his plate that he's adopted and that OM can be his 'daddy' now.
Hey I feel for you man. Obviously your XW is very much like mine. I think the first step is to buy a punching bag and put it up in the garage. That's what I did. things would be so much easier is there were no kids involved and for this I'm trully sorry that your WAW feels then need to make anyone around her misirable who does'nt aggree with her behavior, even if it's children.
When it finally ended for me, I had the luxury of being able to run like hell. The funny thing is that once I did, she started to try and come back around.
nc~
Just checking up on you as you are always checking on me
Now MISTER, 35 is not too young for you... Your only 46 ... At a point in our lives, I don't think age matters at all... well as long as your not 46 and she's 20 that is.
If you click with someone, then I think that is what is important.
your going to have no problem finding someone nc. Your a attractive wonderful person and have a awesome heart. There should be more of you in this world.
You flatter me, Irish. Thank you for the kind words.
Okay, so 35 is not too young. I do realize there's a difference between calendar and mental ages -- and in the case of this particular lady we "clicked" at first but we then could sort of tell we were a bit apart in "age". For example, she's more into hip-hop while I'm more classic rock and country. Kanye West versus Taylor Swift. LOL.
<journaling>
I'm home here with the boys, enjoying a relatively lazy day. I'm casually straightening the dwelling up, while periodically engaging the boys while they're doing their own things. S8 is playing the Wii. S4 was joining him earlier, but is now playing a silly game on my iPhone (if you've never seen PocketGod, it really entertains my S's.)
...
Yesterday was the court hearing, for the parenting coordinator (PC) assignment. The ex was there with her L, me with mine, and then there was the PC. The judge didn't have to waste any time on us, since the differences between what each party wanted to assign to the PC was quickly resolved with no fuss -- the consent order was agreed to and signed and it was all over with in about 15 minutes.
The next step is for each of us, the ex and I, to schedule time with the PC so we can each give him our stories and catch him up on where we are. (Meanwhile I am also struggling with the shock to my finances for putting out his retainer fee. I say it again,
ouch!)
I talked to my L after exiting the courtroom, and remarked that if xW and I could have agreed to agree like this before, with so little contention, then all of this expense and trouble could have been avoided. My atty. concurred -- she said we have come back full circle to where we were in our negotiations as they were a year ago. She seemed just as dumbfounded as I that this path was ever taken. She said she hoped that now that all of this was taken care of, then perhaps xW and I could realize some peace -- no,
strike that, she said that
I (not xW) might realize some peace.
I sure hope so. L asked if I was continuing to get the occasional email from xW, and I said yes, we were still trading those occasional barbs with each other -- only I haven't been responding or hardly at all, because there's just no way one can offer a rational response to some people's insane remarks.
As if to underscore my statement to my L, I received the following email from xW a couple of hours later:
NCB,
All you had to do was communicate & sign the agreement we worked out with <her private mediator> which wasn't much different than what you finally signed & all this expense & drama could have been avoided.
xW
I chuckled to myself at the irony. I didn't respond to xW, but I did forward this to my atty. with a note reminding her of our conversation just an hour or so previously. The humor wasn't lost on her.
I didn't respond to xW, but I did forward this to my atty. with a note reminding her of our conversation just an hour or so previously. The humor wasn't lost on her.
Good for you!!! Not responding to her I mean. I think she just loves it when she makes you mad. Maybe feels like she still has power or control over you or something? But good for her to feel like you could care less about her dumb comments.
Agreed, when my XW's b/s tank starts running on fumes, she seems to come with something new to get a rise out of me. She got me good last weekend. Gearing up the defenses for this weekend.
Thanks, Karen. Thanks, Dday.
Yes, I am finding it much easier now to just ignore xW. It has taken me a long time to un-condition myself from automatically giving her words any credence. I was once under the impression that she was someone actually worthy of devotion and respect, and which my love for her only made that all the more total. But as Jesus said, you shall know them by their fruit. And now the veil has been lifted.
My goal is to eventually neither hate nor love her at all anymore, but to feel a calm indifference towards her (though I often wonder if that is ever really possible.) In such a position, I feel I can then offer her as much cordial respect as she warrants, as the mother of my sons. But nothing beyond that.
I am making strides in reaching that place. There was a point where this was my worst nightmare, to lose my love for her. And while I still feel a natural resistance to this somewhere deep within me, I also realize that this is where God is leading me. He is telling me, in so many different ways, that my W is gone, dead, lost, and I need to keep moving onward. That avenue is now closed forever. My heart now "knows" this whereas my head has known this for much longer.
Ever since this custody lawsuit was filed I have felt her stepping up her warfare against me, drawing me out to battle and hoping I would misstep. The harshness of her attacks have had less and less effect on me however, because I am now more conditioned and immune. And now that the last pieces of the suit are wrapped/wrapping up, I just don't feel she can goad me like before. I am embracing my ability to chuckle at her antics now and let it slide off my back like water.
That's not to say she won't begin a new phase in her psych-war, something to take me off-guard. But given her history I expect it now, and I refuse to let her button-pushing get to me any longer. I expect she will next attempt to sway the PC to her side, for one thing. And I suspect she might very well dispute the current child support payment too -- in fact if she can increase her monthly CS more than the resulting legal fees she would incur, she will certainly take that path (the evil MIL will insist on that.)
I also do not put it past her to cajole the OM into marrying her. And then to try to get him to adopt my S's. I know that's likely coming. A big tsunami for me to surf.
Still, knowing her stripes/spots gives me the power to anticipate her moves, and I will not be baited any longer. (Besides, I've got bigger fish to fry now.)
On the subject of WAS behavior, I constantly find it amazing how the unfaithful spouse will transfer their own sins onto their LBS. It is ironic that while DB advises us to act "as if" with the wayward, at the same time their own strategy seems to be to act "as if" with us -- they treat us "as if" we had been the infidel and not them. That is certainly the attitude I have gotten all this time from xW -- you would think I was the one who had cheated on her and decided to end our M to run off with the OP.
It is the most insane thing, this transference. It has been so bad in our own case that xW occasionally accuses me of transferring my sins onto her. I can say that I used to get really confused as to who did what under those circumstances. (Thankfully, I have had a good IC and some good friends, not to mention the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to keep me straight. I think I have managed to stay sane in the midst of sorting this madness out.)
You folks know a lot about my sitch, more-so than anyone else, but that's still just a small part of the picture -- there is just so very much more that I have had to see and endure that I have tried to ignore altogether. There's been too much to relate all of it here.
But like I indicated above, I am turning the corner on this sad phase in my life. Moving forward. Surfing the tsunami's and hurricanes, looking for smoother waters.
Brother NCB,
You sound well. I hear you in every aspect of the insanity that is the 'transference'. I do not know either, what, if anything but time and a nagging self conscience until our X's just give it up once and for all and claim stake for their actions.
To expect responsibility from the irresponsible, is a futile waste of time and one's own sanity.
That's it exactly, Dday. The key corollary to the Serenity Prayer is that we need to accept responsibility for those sins in life we actually have/had control over -- and none more than that.
Don't you just love how WAS's 'project' their issues upon those who know and love them the most?
Don't you just love how WAS's 'project' their issues upon those who know and love them the most?
I've definitely noticed that too. If we avoid and LTR them for a long period of time, do you think that would end though? They'd maybe start transferring on to their new OP, or maybe even start looking at themselves? One can only hope...
Don't you just love how WAS's 'project' their issues upon those who know and love them the most?
Oh, yeah.
Projection, that's the other term -- where the WAS tries to include the LBS in their own faults. "You are as guilty as I am," is the underlying message. But I guess
Transference takes that a step further, saying, "You are the sole guilty party, not I."
(Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to revise or extend.)
If we avoid and LTR them for a long period of time, do you think that would end though? They'd maybe start transferring on to their new OP, or maybe even start looking at themselves? One can only hope...
You know, there have been some moments where I really
hope that xW makes good on her recent threat to marry the OM. Perhaps then she will indeed begin to wear on him and/or he wear on her -- taking me out of her focus as the perceived source for her perpetual angst. I might actually realize some peace from her, for a while at least.
And it would finally set the countdown clock to their eventual dissolution -- it would be just a matter of time from that point that one would cheat on the other. I
would hate that my S's would be witness to yet another R disaster with their mother in the starring role again, but I see that as a
fait accompli anyway. Better to get that over sooner rather than later.
You know, there have been some moments where I really hope that xW makes good on her threat to marry the OM. Perhaps then she will indeed begin to wear on him and/or he wear on her -- taking me out of her focus as the perceived source for her perpetual angst.
You know, NCB I have thought that way many of times, but then I realized, most likely, I would then be the blame for why
they don't work.
DDay,
They could try to make that case, but unless you were really trying to sabotage their R through direct actions, there's no way anyone would give that silly thought any credibility. As some might say, "That dog don't hunt."
Besides, if anyone is going to think that way, there's nothing we can do about it anyway. You can't control how other people think even when they're sane, so it's pointless to worry about what crazy people think. In my case, my xW already thinks the worst of me, so it wouldn't matter what she thinks about me after her third M eventually fails -- she's already done her worst.
We again have to focus on those things that are in our capacity to control.
I guess you missed my thought. My thought was, when the blissfulness of the relation with OP or anyone for that matter goes south, I can still see it being something like "none of my relationships can work because of what you did to me, blah, blah, blah."
Would I give it anymore notice than a fart blowing by in hurricane force winds? Absolutely not.
Okay, since you put it that way. LOL.
Still, I can't take responsibility for more than 50% of my own M's destruction, so I am certainly not going to listen to her nonsense about my possibly having an impact on her third M. She's been "damaged goods" long before I ever came around.
And I'd warrant that your own xW was also somewhat "broke" before you ever knew her. Perhaps? I know no one is perfect, but I am beginning to think that unfaithfulness in a person's makeup doesn't often happen via spontaneous combustion; there's usually something there to begin with, some underlying flaw in their character already.
You know, there have been some moments where I really hope that xW makes good on her threat to marry the OM. Perhaps then she will indeed begin to wear on him and/or he wear on her -- taking me out of her focus as the perceived source for her perpetual angst.
Yea, I've been there as well. It's almost like you want them to get what they want and deal with the consequences. It's the whole 'be careful what you ask for' deal. As if in their current state of mind that they would learn from this. I wouldn't bet on it, though. The only cure for this seems to be time and maybe them seeing you moving on and having a great life.
and maybe them seeing you moving on and having a great life.
Well, as we've all come to learn, that obviously has
some effect on them.
Well, as we've all come to learn, that obviously has
some effect on them.
You have to wonder what they do when they find out you're dating again. It's like they can do whatever they want, but if you do?
You have to wonder what they do when they find out you're dating again. It's like they can do whatever they want, but if you do?
Heh! That's that other shoe I expect to drop some day, for sure. When it does I expect the sparks to fly. She'll point the finger at me and claim that I was the one who gave up on our M.
To that I'd say, "
Whatever."
<journaling>
Dealing with more B-S from xW today. We had a scheduled parent-teacher conference to meet with S8's third grade teacher. When I arrived, I discovered that xW had gotten there several minutes ahead of time and was talking with the CCR teacher. In this pre-meeting the CCR teacher had scheduled an IEP meeting for Friday, which xW had already agreed to attend. I was then presented with the
option of attending. The CCR teacher apologized for the short notice, but it was apparent that xW didn't really care whether I showed up or not. I am certain she prefers that I do not.
The good news is that S8's teacher glowed about his progress this term, for which I am very glad. The bad news is that xW's shenanigans have put me in a bind regarding work -- I was not scheduled to be off that day.
...
I noted that xW's mother, the vitriolic ex-MIL, was wearing a shirt that I had bought xW as a souvenir during our honeymoon many years ago. I hadn't seen the item in so long, it surprised me. It was unmistakeable, having a distinctive design that ex once seemed to treasure. No longer, quite obviously.
So, xW thinks so little of the gifts I've given her over the years that she'll cast them off callously. And then allow her mother to wear them instead. So classless.
Whatever. She can melt her wedding bands down along with all the other jewelry and other personal items I've given her over the years.
Whatever. She can melt her wedding bands down along with all the other jewelry and other personal items I've given her over the years.
Well, atleast your XW was thoughtful enoughto have her rings and jewelry, mine abonded EVERY piece of jeweelry, including her mothers, grandmother's and so on in a house neither of us live in anymore
Whatever. She can melt her wedding bands down along with all the other jewelry and other personal items I've given her over the years.
Well, atleast your XW was thoughtful enoughto have her rings and jewelry, mine abonded EVERY piece of jeweelry, including her mothers, grandmother's and so on in a house neither of us live in anymore
Dude, go get that stuff! You can always pawn it in a pinch!
I will NEVER set foot in that infernal house again.
Hmmmm, now that I think about it, I haven't actually seen any of the personal items and gifts I have given xW in over two years. For all I know she could have hocked them right after the separation began.
While xW managed to get a lot out of me over the years we were together, the material gains she retained thereafter were just another thirty pieces of silver. So to speak.
I don't care really though. My W and my M to her are now dead and buried anyway, as far as I am concerned. Even the mementos that were still in her possession are inconsequential in the larger scheme of things.
I will NEVER set foot in that infernal house again.
How bout having a close friend or relative do it? That's just weird to me she would do that....How did you find out about that; why did she do that? Sorry for the hijack, NC!!!
When I brought the last of my XW's stuff to her apartment, included was alot of the 'momentos' from our marriage of 7 years. I felt that because it was her that left, she must carry the burden of sorting through our stuff. It was my way of letting go and moving on....she gets to carry the baggage now.
Long story short, the house is in her fathers name as we couldn't get a good interest rate. So, now it's rented out and they are sleeping, eating, bathing, you name it with all our worldly possesions. I kid you not, my clothes and collectables were all I was able to get out when x-FIL "gave me the boot".
That whole family is so messed up it's not even funny. Her mother has to be turning in her grave so badly it's registering on the rhictor scale.
Thus, any "friends" involved in that situation are no longer frineds of mine, don't need that kind of company that support destroying your family. Close family, well, I know my cousins have all volunteered to go back and get my tools and things, but I just tell them to let it be, it's better for my sanity to just leave it alone.
At any cost, X left in 7/08. I held out as best as possible until 2/09. Neither of us want anything to do with the place, it's kind of taken on a "Amittyville Horror" ending, the family up and left and never returned for their possesions.
When I brought the last of my XW's stuff to her apartment, included was alot of the 'momentos' from our marriage of 7 years. I felt that because it was her that left, she must carry the burden of sorting through our stuff. It was my way of letting go and moving on....she gets to carry the baggage now.
Not me my friend. I had to live with 'momentos' of X's first marriage randomly packed away in the house. I refused to let any of mine be that way, period. So, I set a deadline for X to come get anything she choses from the loot, and assure me it will not end up as such. Otherwise it will end up like our marriage, thrown away.
She apparently thought I was joking. And in the state of mind I was in at the time, it was very very bad to take anything I said lightly.
I kept one picture at the alter, a video of the day, and my champaign glass we would drink out of every anniversary, that is all.
Okay, I need to vent...
I went to the IEP meeting at S8's school today, burning up yet more of my dwindling vacation hours (gee, thanks, exW.) The meeting went extremely well, and I really like S8's teachers and staff, especially this year. I had been warned by others with Autism Spectrum kids that third grade is often a very difficult transition for these kids -- I am very thrilled and relieved that S8 seems to be handling things well. Compared to last year, S8 is doing fantastic.
During this meeting I sat with S8's primary teacher, his CCR teacher, the school's assistant principal, and my exW. The problem arose because everyone seemed to defer to exW by default. Most glaring to me was that the CCR teacher seemed to address everything to exW and not me. I was sitting front and center, with exW next to me on my right, and yet the CCR teacher, who was doing most of the talking, was always facing exW and making eye contact with her. Only once in a long while would she cast a brief glance towards me.
It was very disconcerting. I tried to engage and make eye contact with everyone present, and still they focused on xW. I was thinking to myself, "Hey, I'm right here! I am S8's parent too! I'm not here as window-dressing or to be a fifth-wheel. I need to be just as involved as his mother."
And then when it came time to sign the paperwork, the CCR teacher gave the forms to exW first and allowed her to sign in the blanks labeled "parent" -- I had to squeeze my own signature in around the other lines. It's like I was just an afterthought.
I've searched my thoughts and feelings on this, trying to be realistic and asking if I am being just a bit too sensitive. I think partly so -- but I know I feel slighted just the same. This was nothing personal, I know, but it reflected an insensitivity where male parents are concerned. The automatic assumption is that the father is just along for the ride, and less concerned about the details or the decisions regarding their children. A definite gender bias.
I can't say that I blame them personally for this unfortunate tendency to focus on the mother of a child to the exclusion of the father -- as when ex and I were together I did indeed delegate a lot of decision-making to my children's mother. And how would they know our situation is any different from so many other "normal" households.
I am thinking that this attitude only discourages father participation in their childen's education (that's how I felt, certainly.) And the resulting lack of participation by these fathers only feeds into this biased attitude about them. Thus it only helps perpetuate a vicious circle.
In all honesty, it also grates on me that exW just ate this special attention up, particularly because it came at my own expense.
But in all humility I have to get over this and move on. I'll nurse my wounded pride and my injured sense of fairness. I just wish people would realize that their biases, innocent as they might seem, can still cause harm.
that was pretty rude! sorry you had to bear that. I wonder if she's said anything to them?
I'm not one to keep quiet, if that'd happened to me I'd write all the T/teachers who were present, an email (or letter) thanking for their time and letting them know that you want to be fully involved with your child's life and that any desicion (academic, scheduling meetings) has to be done jointly and that you appreciate them keeping you informed and abreast of anything related with your son. Do they know you guys are D'd? if not they add that due to strenous circumstances you appreciate it the school contacts BOTH parents about your son.
bleah... will she ever grow up? ... you just reminded me of this week when I found an airbrushed tshirt we got at the beach with x's and my name on it...I chuck it into the bag I was filling with clothes to give to a charity, hope they get a buck for it to help someone, lol, it's out of my hands now.
Hi, Cat,
I am pretty sure they know about the D.
I don't think teachers give a thought about the role of fathers in their students' lives. I think they're just so used to the modern family model where the husband is too busy with work to really get involved. And I also suspect that, that to them, D doesn't change their observation of parental involvement.
I suppose a widower would be a different story because the mother is simply not going to be present. But that's not the case here (although I feel like I've been widowed sometimes.)
I suppose I will just have to win them over by participating all the more harder, to prove their misconceptions wrong through actions and words.
Fridays marks the transfer of custody each week. My week with our S's ended yesterday morning, while the ex's began after they got home from school.
Yesterday also marked the end of the school term for S8. He is now tracked-out for the next three weeks. So xW is taking them out of town on vacation, to Myrtle Beach. I hope they, my S's, have a good time if the weather holds up. But I am concerned now because I am certain that the OM is going along (S8 has assured me that his mother is including him.) What I am most concerned with is if xW plans on OM sleeping in the same room with them -- that would be a direct violation of our Parenting Agreement and consent order.
I would hope she would have enough common sense and enough decency to have separate rooms at the hotel. But I suspect that xW is brash enough to violate our legal agreement, to cast caution to the wind. Heck, she doesn't give a rat's petard for the sanctity of M, so why would she care about honoring any other legal agreement made with me?
I don't want my kids exposed to that, their indiscretions. I am tempted to take measures to get evidence of their violation of the signed consent order. But I am too broke to do anything about it.
But in all humility I have to get over this and move on. I'll nurse my wounded pride and my injured sense of fairness. I just wish people would realize that their biases, innocent as they might seem, can still cause harm.
OK, I'm sorry you had to go through that too, but I think if you do just continue your usual efforts to be a loving, involved dad, that at some point they'll realize the truth. And if they don't, well does it really matter, what they think of you? It matters that you and your boys know you're a good dad I think, but that's it. I think my only concern would be if they are keeping some info from you and just giving to your XW, but then I would just address that issue and say that as you are an involved parent, you think it's best for the boys to have both parents involved. And then if they don't keep you informed after that work your way up the chain: vice-principal to principal to school board...
And re: the having OM in the same hotel room (you think she would have him share with your boys?). That would be horrible. You know my pastor has offered to have some of the Ls from my church help me out if needed (I have my own though), and I wonder if your church would help out in a case like that? That is so against our churches teachings that they would probably be thrilled to help if you find out that happened. I mean your W doesn't have tons of money to fight a legal battle either does she, and could just be a letter or a few hours work for the L?
Hi, Karen,
I recall you too have been through some issues with your school system too. My concern is just as you're stating -- that because they assume I as a father am not as involved, the school staff and teachers are not conveying all information to me equally as they do exW. I am gathering from the conversations I have been privy to that there are some things I was not being informed of. For example, the assumption was made that everyone knows what a CCR teacher is and what their role is in our school system. (Heck, I had to google CCR for myself to get the scoop.)
But the addressing the conversation almost exclusively to the person sitting right next to me is just so... disrespectful ... and ignorant on their part.
AS for the wonderful little vacation exW has taken our S's on, along with the fat b*stard (OM), it is not that exW has the boys together with the OM -- although I have to say that would be bad too -- it is prospect that all four of them are in the same hotel room. To have another adult, unrelated by blood or M, under the same roof is expressly prohibited by the parenting agreement we signed in August.
I have since called my S's this evening, as usual, and S8 was more than ready to give me the full scoop about the sleeping arrangements, or as much as had been revealed to him as yet. They are currently in a two-bedroom suite with adjoining sleeping quarters. S8 tried to say something confused about the OM sleeping in a tent out on the patio/bacony -- but that makes zero sense. And I don't believe for one second that that sleeping arrangement will be maintained once the boys drift off to sleep.
Obviously, my ex has no conscious and even appears to be trying to scamm the system she agreed to.
I will certainly be bringing these matters up to the parenting coordinator when I meet with him next.
...
Right now I am extremely sore and exhausted from helping a friend all day long move into her new home. I'm now going to go crash in bed...
Obviously, my ex has no conscious and even appears to be trying to scamm the system she agreed to.
And this surprises you because???
Oh, yes, the parenting coordinator--sounds like a good idea!!! Have you met with them yet? Hope it's a good one!!!
ahhh, so BDTD and nothing changed, no matter how much I threatened, honestly, what's going to happen? he most likely spends the night when your kids are there.
And I trust you are a good father who doesnt' drill his kids, though they seem to be telling you much, specially the 8yr old, be careful how much you ask, even if in a nice way.
I try to be careful, not drill my kids. S8 tends to spill the beans on either parent without any bidding. Not that I have anything to be ashamed about, and certainly nothing that violates any consent order. (I do sense the hand of exW at times when S8 launches into saying something about his mother, and then catches himself and begins to reverse his words. She has obviously coached him to "not say anything to Daddy". Given her antics of late, she probably has to "remind" him quite a lot. And I know that with S8 that wouldn't work too well, he can't help it.)
On the other hand, during tonight's call I got more than a little tired of hearing S8 talk about the OM -- on and on and on. I tried to sound interested and was genuinely happy S8 and S4 are having a good time, but I was wincing every time he mentioned OM being at the center of all their fun. It was so bad that I began to wonder where xW was while all of this was going on -- I'm sure she was there, but it's odd there was hardly any mention of their mother.
Eventually I managed to gently/not-so-gently steer the conversation back to where we were talking about them, sans OM (I could care less about if he is enjoying himself.)
So, what I'm hearing is that the consent order is not worth the paper it's written on, huh? That's not a good thing then.
Oh, and before anyone says anything -- Hell, yeah, I'm jealous -- these are my children, not his (OM). My willingness to forgive and forget ends where my children's interests lie. If anyone thinks that's wrong, then sue me!
Have you met with them yet? Hope it's a good one!!!
I haven't met with him professionally yet, just shook hands with him in court. He'd
better be good, we're paying him some hefty fees for his services.
Hey NCB.
As cat suggested, I would definately send all the kids teachers a e-mail, thanking them for their time, and lightly touching the fact that you are D'd, but equally involved in all issues where the kids a concerned. I did it, and it has worked well now for the second year. Hell, I'm actually the primary contact it seems as everytim they try to get a hold of XW, all they get is her voice mail and no call back. But, hey, that only works in my favor as it paints Xw in her own poor self-portrait. Sure, you still miss out on little things here and there sent home from time to time, but they will inform you of any 'major concerns' and the like. And, perhaps at the mext meeting, they'll be a little more attentive to address both parents.
Now, as far the JPA. Wow, don't we all have too many of the same thigns going on in our situations? I finally had enough of XW's antics and countless violations to the JPA. I did my research and came to find that it can be terminated at any time and the matter brought back to trial, pretty much right where we left off.
So, I wrote a nice 2 page letter, free of emotion and personal acusation, took some excerpts from the JPA pertaining to the joint parenting philosophy, and then the areas of complaint I had that are in vioaltion of the agreement. And that in itself is step one of the prescribed resolution process.
I will say, it got her attention.
I'm sure you know, the kids are going are going to sugar up their stories some (on both parents). I know especially where OM is concerned it can be hard to not react immediately to things you may find offensive. I just try and verify their story a few times for inconsistancies to filter out the fact from the fiction. You can also tell them you're glad they are having a good time, but you'd rather not hear about OM. That is ground rule one with my boys and they are very respecful of it. It may be a bit too late in your situation though.
Anyway, if you prove they were in the same bed in the same room with the boys, I'd be all over that, rest assured.
I really do wish my boys to have a good time, and tell them so. But it doesn't stop me from silently wishing the OM weren't around. I also wish that xW would truly act even one tenth as respectably and honorably as she thinks of herself.
I haven't even mentioned this violation of the JPA to my L yet. I am becoming too discouraged to think anyone in court would give a d*mn.
NC,
Don't beat yourself up. You would not be human if you weren't jealous that he is spending time with your precious boys. Time that would have never been taken away from you if your xw had not chosen to break up her family. Hard not to be bitter, but know that those boys love you with all of their heart and always will!
Hugs, Yoyo
Thanks, Yoyo,
I got a bit upset (although I didn't let them know it) while talking to my S's this evening -- I kept getting interrupted: the OM was talking at them in the background each time! And then at the same time xW was rushing them to end our call too soon (it was almost 9 PM at night, and they were just then getting dinner?) I stayed calm but after I got off the phone I was pretty peeved.
Thankfully, I got over it and into better mood. They'll get back from Myrtle Beach on Thursday. I can't wait 'til Friday!
I got a bit upset (although I didn't let them know it) while talking to my S's this evening -- I kept getting interrupted: the OM was talking at them in the background each time! And then at the same time xW was rushing them to end our call too soon (it was almost 9 PM at night, and they were just then getting dinner?
That sounds like something to add to your list for the parenting coordinator. That's so rude and disrespectful for him or anyone to intrude on your already limited time with the kids. Can you imagine if your X called and you had a GF talking to them at the same time as she was trying to talk to them? But your GF would probably have manners though!
Also maybe a time limit on the calls you get at least 10 or 20 or 30 minutes or whatever which she can't interrupt? I know she's done that before to your calls. Yeah, and dinner at 9--I'd add that to the list too!!!
Hello, Karen,
Yes, I could tell the PC quite a lot. I wonder if it would have any impact. I'm thinking not likely. I am supposed to schedule a first meeting with the PC -- he wanted each parent to meet with him one-on-one to get their stories -- but he hasn't returned my calls yet to set up a session. Not very encouraging.
I got my S's back this evening. I can't help but noticing how spoiled they have been this week with their mother on vacation. They still want to be entertained and fed like they're guests at a resort or something. S8 gained another four pounds, or so he says -- there's waaaay too much fat in the diet she's been feeding him, even when not on holiday. It's not healthy for him, and makes me think she's trying to turn him into a mini-me of the OM.
At least he's eating though, right?
...
It struck me earlier this evening -- I think I would be so much further along if xW had not lied to me so much and tried to ruin my reputation. If she had simply not made me out to be the total fall guy for our M ending like it did, not pinned the blame all on me, or had tried to take away my children, I am certain I would not feel nearly so injured. It wasn't enough to take her love away, but she had to also take me for everything she could get and then try to destroy me.
What is it in these people, these WAS, that causes them to turn like that?
I know I need to put these questions and thoughts aside, stop looking back like Lot's wife did, and chalk it up to things we will never really understand -- and keep moving forward. But looking at the faces of my sleeping children I wonder if there's some clue, some knowledge I might glean from this tragedy in my life that they might avoid such pitfalls themselves. Must the cycle be repeated, can it never end? How?
What is it in these people, these WAS, that causes them to turn like that?
I chalk it mostly to a psychological problem and to the fact that the devil is like a hungry lion looking for someone to devour, he preys on families and attacks where people are most vulnerable, that's the only way I can understand why a good, shy, conservative God-fearing man would turn into the insensitive liar cheat lost soul ex is now. Remember the verse where it says "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickednessin high places’ ?
I commend my kids to God daily and try my best to teach them His way, which is the only tool that will keep them safe, pray hard for them instead of giving in to worry, it's hard sometimes not to fear for our little ones as we send them out with people who've lost their way, but they are in God's hands and we have to strive hard at trusting Him.
Thanks, Cat,
Of course, you're right. All of it.
After I wrote the prior email I caught an Ed Young sermon on video. He asked the question that came up during the Nightline debate last week, "Are we born to cheat?"
His answer: Yes, we are all born to cheat. But as Christians, we are reborn to not cheat but to follow Christ.
That's the key. We all have sinful natures and we are all destined to sin and to die for those sins -- unless we accept the salvation that Jesus offers us through his sacrifice for our sins.
My goal for my S's is to lead them in the way of the Lord, and to pray for them, that they might lead good and spiritually healthy lives. I pray that I can lead them through and past the snares in life until such time as they are on their own. I will pray that God grants me the patience to persevere in the face of behavior from their mother that contradicts those spiritual teachings.
I am not looking forward to her oppositional actions, but what else can I do but to continue anyway?
I can't believe the weekend is over already. Boom, snap, gone. I enjoyed it nonetheless.
I took the boys on a long hike yesterday. We're trying to build up some miles under S8's belt for Cub Scouts. We earned another 4.6 miles yesterday afternoon, even though we had to double-back. The terrain was very rough, undulating and rocky, with lots of roots and other snares to trip one up, but we made it.
I am proud of the both of them for persevering in this -- even S4. He was sooo tired on the last leg that I was starting to think I was going to have to carry him. And as the light started to fade there towards the end, he took a tumble and scraped his knee. I made sure he was okay, dusted him off, put a bandage on a minor laceration and then convinced him he needed to hold my hand the rest of the way. I told him to let "Daddy" be his walking stick, so he wouldn't be so likely to fall anymore.
They both did good. And S8 is relishing being that much closer to earning his first hiking achievement.
I told S8 that if he manages to keep earning the miles for hiking, then perhaps some time next Spring the two of us might try to tackle the trails on Mt. Mitchell (we've got a long way to go before that however.)
NC,
Glad you and the boys had a nice weekend.
Thanks for stopping by. I am glad that you can create such special memories for your kids. Believe me they will remember this time for years to come!
hugs, kat
nc~
It just warms my heart to hear about your time with the boys. It makes me just smile. I wish H was more like that. He does some stuff with them, but usually ends up with him being impatient with them.
it makes me sad.
Your a wonderful father, and they will remember these times with you, and how it will make such a difference in their lives.
Hope you are doing well yourself.
((((hugs)))
I thank all of you, Yoyo, Kat, Irish, for the encouragement.
Although my two boys are high-energy handfuls and thus very tiring at times, still it is a "happy tired". I get such a level of contentment knowing they're safely under my roof and that I can enjoy their company and rest assuredly when they are tucked asleep in their beds.
It is a counterpoint to the other 50% of the time they are with their mother -- where I am more at "peace", but too much so, and I miss them and am concerned for them. I catch myself when next I then chide myself -- my old thought pattern is that I have nothing to worry about because they are with their mother. I catch myself at this and think again: perhaps I cannot take such things for granted, i.e., assuming their mother is still trustworthy even where they are concerned. I thought I knew who that person was at one time, but certainly no longer -- she has proven to be capable of the unthinkable, so nothing is removed from her now.
And then another double-take hits me: But there's nothing I can do about her and what happens when she has custody anyway (assuming she is doing nothing illegal) -- so why tear myself up over that. No, give them over to God -- trust but verify.
If any of what I just said made any more sense to you than it did me, then please feel free to explain it better than I can because it makes me feel so schizo debating myself.
They're so young, and yet they're both growing so fast. I wish I could do so much more for them than I am able to now.
NCB,
I, as always, completely understand what you're saying. Luckily, you have them 50% of the time and through so, have a stronger influence and interaction with your boys. As I've said, providing nothing against the parenting agreement is occuring, you are right, there is NOTHING you can do, no matter how much it may displease you, that your X does or handles a situation while they are in her care.
As I put in my complaint to my X (who was/is violating the order), no matter what happened, we are still their parents. And in being so, come form different upbringings. Consequently, she has her way and I have mine, that's just the way it was and will be.
Utilize YOUR time to mold them in the fasion YOU do. It's all YOU can do. In time, if they feel her methods have been flaud, that's THIER decision. EDIT- And as hard as it may be, do not try to instigate some sort of rebellion against your X, she is still their mother afterall.
Dday, I hear ya' on the rebellion thing, but just living my life is enough to run counter to xW's reality-distorting gravity well, for which she takes considerable offense. Just the fact that I am still taking in oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide is enough to make her cross and flag me as contrary to her sensibilities.
Just tonight I had to put the kibosh on a conversation I was having with S8. He was steering the conversation towards talking about the OM and that his mother has "loved" him for a very long time. He mentioned that because his mother and the OM had been such close friends back when my dog Angus was still alive, he concludes that they must have been "in love" even before he was born.
I can't tell you how painful that is to hear, but I think I kept my cool in front of my S. Of course the fact that I was trying to steer the conversation back onto safer ground was probably enough for him to see that I was not comfortable with the subject matter. Perhaps he is learning the wrong behaviors, i.e., how to manipulate his parents through emotionally charged subjects. I am now concerned he might be unknowingly playing one parent off the other. Certainly he will relay anything I might say about his mother back to her just to see her own reaction -- so I need to not feed this any more than I possible.
This all makes me wonder, these WAS really don't know what wheels they set in motion by their deceit and their selfishness. The fact this is having such an impact on our children, often in ways far more subtle than one can anticipate, breaks my heart all over again.
Oh, I thought I'd pass along something that I have been thinking about of late.
I started to think about the people of Israel as they were led by Moses out of Egypt. I realize the parallels between their attitudes and theirs faults with those of my own, as a LBS. I feel that I too have been wondering around stupidly in the Wilderness until the time that I am truly ready for the Promised Land. I am supposed to be learning how to be someone chosen by God and growing closer to Him. Instead I have whined, complained and back-bitten. I have looked back at my old life with regret, not focusing on the blessings of the "now". Like those who followed Moses, I am an ingrate stuck in the Wilderness until I can learn my lesson, if ever.
The funny thing that I realized all of a sudden is that in this analogy the "bondage" to which I have been freed is my M to my xW! Here I have been mourning the loss of my slavish devotion to what has been proven to be an unequal yoke --
what was I thinking?!?LOL. I am now picturing my xW as a queen of Egypt, with her OM drowning beneath the Red Sea.
But back to the original matter. I am now working my way out of the wilderness of regret and self-pity, and seeking the Promised Land. It is a difficult journey indeed, but mostly because
I made it so. I recognize that I need to work on my attitude, to focus on the positives and to truly put my faith in the Lord. And that is going to take time and a lot of patience.
NCB,
Time to get harsh for a second:
Seriously, you need to quit with these feelings of anomosity against your X. Even tho you only post them here, they are in almost every post so don't even try for a nano-second say that you're over it, you're not. LET IT GO. Your X can carry all the anger and angst against you she wants as mine does. Guess what? I let mine go, and I'm not losing any sleep over the fact she hasn't. That's her choice to be infintile. I tell her I gave her what she wanted and can give no more and see no point in it. End of story.
As for as conversation with the kids: this should ahve been implimented A LONG, LONG time ago. You know the moment one of your kids talks about your X and OM or each individualy you're going get emotional. STOP THE CONVERSATION DEAD IN IT'S TRACKS BEFORE IT EVEN STARTS. The moment my S12 even starts, I in a tone say S12's name, hold up my hand and half the time I don't even have to say "stop". Boom, done. I think you've let yours go about this for far too long and now they feel it's okay, and guess what? They will use that to play the "mommy versus daddy" game to get what they want.
It's now going to take you quite some time to get them in the practice of knowing you don't want to hear about. You don't need to hear about. Why? What are you geting out of it? What are they getting out of it? But it needs to stop. For you, for them, and hell even for your X. Because soon those things you don't want to hear about, will then be conveyed by them upon your X an dit just might be the message from planet Earth to what ever planet WAS congregate on to signal a problem.
Capeche?
Capeche ... and touche.
You're right, I know that. I am recognizing that S8 would only bring these words up only to garner a reaction out of me. Even the silence -- that pregnant pause before I give him a reply and tell him to drop it -- is undoubtedly enough of a reaction to satisfy his subconscious aims.
(Who says an Asperger's kid can't read subtle emotions? Mine is getting very adept at this!)
I am still struggling, yes. It's taking me some time to learn to take these things in stride. I've come a long way, but I have so much farther to go, obviously. But I do recognize the key to this is my attitude, and I have allowed my animosity towards xW to continue to fester with each negative interaction with her. Until I can replace this in my mind and heart with the many blessings and other positives in my life, I will be stuck in this Wilderness.
For my S's sake I have to get better at being a duck and letting the water roll off my back.
Thanks for the 2x4.
Just giving an Update:
I had a pretty good weekend. I t was mostly quiet but I had a good time with friends over at the new house of my friend M, who I helped move in a couple of weeks ago. It was a dinner/wine-tasting party that was followed up by our bible study. We talked and watched the accompanying DVD by Ed Young (his series on betrayal and forgiveness), then talked some more. A very enjoyable evening.
...
Before that, in the morning, I got some emails from xW. The first one was very odd but the ones after that were just the same old same old -- she was grousing about the CS amount and I was gently telling her to calm down and review the worksheet I had printed out to her. The figures were all there in the attachment I included with the monthly check, but she kept asking why this and why that -- I just referred her back to the printout. Her problem is that she thinks I am cheating her because my CS payment to her is not quite half the school, daycare and other fees for our S's, but I had to inform her that there are more expenses than that, including medical and dental coverage which I am picking up entirely (including the deductibles she refuses to pay for and for which I still get the bills.) Again it was all there in black & white for her to see herself, she was just failing to really look at it (she worked in accounting when we first met, so I know she's not that obtuse where such calcs come in.)
But back to the first email, the one that preceded this quibbling over the CS amounts. She said that she understood that I was having difficulties with the high cost of rent and services in the apartment complex I currently reside in, and that I was trying to look for some place more affordable -- so she said she would not oppose me moving into the same apartment complex she lives in -- just so long as I make sure it is in one of the other buildings away from either the one she lives in or the one her mother lives in.
I haven't said anything here in these forums yet about this. Likewise, I have not given any sort of response to her about that strange message either. I don't think there's really anything to say about it and, besides, we got sidetracked soon after by the other emails. What is so odd about this is that last year when she moved into that apartment complex she told me in no uncertain terms that I was to not even think of relocating into the same apartments. She made a very vehement demand that I not try to do anything she might construe as me invading her privacy or crowding her freedom.
So what to make of this? ---> Only what I already know: she's a nutcase.
Well, with my X, when I made the announcement that I was leaving the marital residence that was barely 4 blocks from where she was staying, she begged and pleaded me not to leave. She went so far as to say she needed the 'closeness'. Why? Who knows. She said for the kids. But in reality, it was a major pain in the arse being so close, walking past 'her house' every day going to work and coming home, seeing OM's car there. It also enabled her to pick up or dump off the kids at her own leasure. And most of all, enabled her to stroll over whenever she wanted and corner me into converation, be it good or bad.
So, hindsight, I still have a mixture of feelings in regards to that request. I'm sure there was some good itnent to it, but it seemed more like a convenience factor. To say anything of the fact that I was the 'undertaker' of all her possessions she left behind.
Thus, since I'm still not sure what happened in my stich, I'm not sure what to tell you on this. I will say take those points I made and question if the potential good outwieghs the potential bad case scinerios.
Hell, instead of wondering about it, do as I did and just flat out ask her why she'd make such a recomendation and judge her reaction from there (and it would be helpful to bar the notion of being a nutcase at the time
)
Yeah, these thoughts have already passed through my head. Although the apartment complex xW is in was originally my first choice two years ago when I moved out (they had no vacancies at the time), and even though I have since been envious of xW claiming those apartments before I could last year prior to selling our house (they're the closest apartments to S8's elementary school), I would have to really think hard about whether I really would even want to live there now.
Like you said, I would hate seeing the OM's car over there constantly. I don't know what I would do if I had more opportunities to run into that fraktard. On the other hand, I suppose if I was in one of the buildings furthest away that would greatly minimize that from happening.
The main thing is that I am certain she would use the closer proximity to her own selfish advantage -- dumping the boys off on me at any and every opportunity, just like she does with her mother now (who has her own place there now too). But then she used to do that all the time before her mother returned to town anyway -- and I don't really mind seeing my S's. It might be nice knowing that the boys could easily walk over to their dad's place any time they felt they needed to. Of course that might begin to present a problem if/when I start dating again. I'd like for my own privacy to be respected too, especially now that the M is dead and gone, buried in the dirt of the big D.
Something to think about. Right now I am tending to think it might be more trouble than any advantage it might offer. Still, it bears a little thought.
...
I go to the Parenting Coordinator (PC) tomorrow for my first one-on-one, just an introduction, I guess, to let us tell our stories to him and set the groundwork. Since xW was "blessed" with being able to visit with him last week, i.e, first, I am wondering what she's already said to try to poison the PC against me.
Oh, well, just need to worry about just those things I can control, nothing else.
Did you meet with the PC yet? If so, how did it go? Hard one on the apt. complex b/c of your boys, but not only your XW lives there, but your evil MIL? Plus, I think when you start dating, your X is going to not be happy about that, and would be too easy for her to keep tabs on you. And the OM....Is there an apt. complex nearby but not the same one?
I don't know NCB, sounds accomodations at Charles Manson's Mansions if you ask me
I'd be exploring other options not so close, but perhaps close enough for the kids as I completely hear ya on that aspect, I do miss the kids being able to come over when ever tehy wanted, especially when XW "needs her phone" so they can't call.
I don't know NCB, sounds accomodations at Charles Manson's Mansions if you ask me
Or like the hotel in Psycho?
That thought had crossed my mind, and NCB< don't forget, Mother can see you from the house on the hill. Shower with care my friend.
dday... needed that laugh.. thanks!
(((nc))) hope everything went ok... let us know.
Hey, everyone. Thanks for continuing to check in on me.
The meeting with the PC went fine. I'm still reflecting on what we covered. It took a little longer than I had expected because relating to someone the whole background is just simply going to take a while. Even then I didn't cover but a fraction, but I am hoping it was enough.
The biggest question he had concerned why it came about that the court asked for a PC to be assigned to our case -- as in our type of circumstances the parents don't typically have one assigned. I told him it was because we had volunteered to such in our parenting agreement, at the suggestion of our atty.s.
He said he hopes to save both xW and I a lot of money by helping keep our disputes out of the courts. And in talking with us, he feels that, so far as he's seen, he doesn't expect us to contact him very often, as we appear to be settling down and working on some level of cooperation. He strongly suggested we continue to keep as much of our communication and correspondence in writing as possible, just to avoid the he-said, she-said nonsense that tends to happen.
I prepared him for some possible points of contention that are likely to come up in the not too distant future; these being based on those issues in our Parenting Agreement that xW had wanted changed or removed before she would sign -- specifically, move-aways and cohabitation. He agreed that based on where her focus seemed to be in the agreement those might very well be something she might pursue, thus leading to a dispute.
I also told him that the last remaining area in which I might can trust xW is that she does love our S's and that she does want to have their best interests at heart. However, I also know that xW has shown to be like too many parents who have this bad habit of confusing and replacing their children's best interests with their own self-interests. The doctor agreed wholeheartedly and said that my observation on that was very "astute. He said that his role was to stay focused on what is best for S8 and S4 and for the court. I replied that where my S's are concerned I was counting on him (the PC) to keep us both, xW and I, honest on that score.
I'm not entirely sure how all this is going to pan out, but I am somewhat hopeful that the PC will indeed help us to keep a lid on our disagreements and, more importantly, deter xW from taking any more unilateral actions regarding our S's.
On the Manson/Bates house, I agree. I am thinking it would be just a bit too creepy. LOL. The ex-MIL is creepy enough.
So it would be best to relocate to some place not too far away, but not in the same complex.
Keep hanging NCB. Just try not to convey too much of your personl beliefs and feeling with the PC, may do more damage then good.
just trading back the two cents.
I hope everyone is doing well today. Here, it is gloomy, wet and overcast, but at least it's not raining like it was yesterday.
I am hoping the weekend weather turns out like they forecast, maybe even some sunshine. I am taking the boys on a weekend getaway to Charlotte, to see the NASCAR race on Saturday. My S's are all fired up and so am I. S8 has been a car fanatic since
before he was born (yep, even
in utero ), and S4 follows his older brother's lead. So they're really going to love this event. I can't wait to pick them up tomorrow from their mother's place!
Halloween is also shaping up to be a blast for us as well. Some friends of mine are hosting a costume party for the adults as well as the kids, and they live in a great neighborhood for trick-or-treating afterward. (I am soooo very glad I resisted xW's attempts to bargain and finagle Halloween away from me!)
The next two weeks look to be very busy and very fun. (Hmmm, I guess it's the pessimist in me that now has me keeping an eye out to whatever -- or
whoever -- might come along to spoil any of this. LOL.)
But then after that, I'll be broke once more. It'll be time to re-begin again to pay down the debt from these legal costs.
C'est la vie...
ARRRAAAGGGHHH, NCB, you, you, b.............
Ok, it's not your fault. I had a ticket at the ready (6th row at the line) and have been on stand-by for a flight to make that race to keep my mind off the anniversary! I mean, I was going to fly, me the Mr. I'm not getting on plane unless I'm jumping out of it!
You just lost your brownie points with me oh brother in divorceness.
Aaaah, ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDIN' ME?!? You're saying you have a ticket and want to go, but you're not? Huh?!?
Is it because you happen to hate flying or because of something sentimental about your ex? If the latter, then, dude, you can't let her have exclusive hold of something that might be dear to your heart. (That'd be like me forgoing kayaking just because xW and OM are now kayaking -- no f'ing way!)
If you change your mind, bro', let me know. Our tickets kinda' suck, nowhere near the line (Diamond Towers, got 'em through an offer at work), but my kids don't mind (they'll just be happy to see the cars go round.)
ANh, I didn't actually acquire a ticket but eaily could have, they're DIRT CHEAP, especially for Chase tickets.
Like I said, couldn't afford airfare and hotel so, nope, not in the cards for me.
nc~ very glad to see that your meeting went well.
Have fun with those boys today!! It will be a great day for you!
Take care
Hey NCB, your boy Matt was looking good there! Can't believe how many empty seats there were
By the time race got started the stands were pretty well full, with few empty seats-- at least where we were. We got there much too early (4 PM) and until the crowds showed up it was much too cold. We froze our little butts off in that cold wind.
We had a great time nonetheless, and my two were such stalwarts, insisting on staying through the worsening cold as long as possible. In the end it was sleepiness that started to take it's toll -- S4 fell asleep on my lap, and then S8 started to get real still too. I kept checking on him, gently warning him I had no intention of trying to carry the both of them back to the car. So we ended up leaving early and watched the remainder of the race from the toasty warm convenience of our hotel room.
What?!?!
Geesh, you Southeastern people......lol
Hey, Dday, there were folks from up North also shivering in those stands too!
Hey, Dday, there were folks from up North also shivering in those stands too!
They weren't from Chicago, that's for sure.
Sh!t...
Just when my PMA is running on all cylinders I get a bunch of calls from xW on my work phone and my cellphone -- she left voicemails each time. I thought it must have been important enough to call her back, so I did -- big mistake.
Members of our cub scout pack are going to a Cub-O-Ree camping event more than an hour's drive away on Saturday -- however, that begins xW's weekend of custody. I had asked her when we first heard of it (Sept. 28) whether she might see her way to allowing me to take S8, but she said she had other plans for the boys but if I wanted to trade Halloween for the given weekend, she would change her plans. I refused to "go there" and dropped it then and there, rejecting the notion of giving up a holiday in exchange for a regular day.
However, S8 has had his own plans. He keeps telling everyone that he's going to the Cub-O-Ree anyway, no matter what. I have been telling him his mother has other plans and that it's not going to happen. But S8 is very persistent.
Well xW has suddenly changed her tone. Started accusing me of not communicating with her, that she knew nothing about the scout event, demanding that I get her enrolled in the pack mailing list and demanding the contact information for the pack events coordinator.
I sent her a detailed list of events for the remainder of the year along with the event coordinator's contact info (not before I sent a warning to the coordinator!) I also explained again to xW that since she was already planning to take our S's on a train ride this weekend that I had decided to rule out this one event and place my focus on the others. I also did not want to be the one to be blamed for spoiling xW's plans with our S's. S8 would have to learn that one cannot possible participate in every single thing that is possible.
So I thought I had made a reasonable response via email. Then I made the mistake of calling xW back. We had the most insane argument!
She was slamming me for (purportedly) trying to shut her out of S8's scouting events, being lazy for not wanting to take S8 to "such an important event", being selfish for not wanting to do whatever it takes to provide these opportunities to our S's or allowing her to do so when I cannot/will-not. She also accused me of setting her up to be seen as "the bad guy" in denying one of them from participating in such an event. She said I was again showing to be unreliable and terrible at communicating each (and every little) detail to her the second I am made aware of them. She maligned my parenting and denigrated my efforts to be involved with my children, totally diss'ed me.
Now she is demanding that I either take S8 to the Saturday only event for this Cub-O-Ree or else she will. But, she added, since I am now "supposedly" an assistant den leader, she couldn't understand why I would be too "lazy" and unwilling to actually participate in the den's activities. If I do go, she's going to demand I grant her a day during one of my weeks as "payback." And I told her I had the right to decline any payback day that interferes with what I already have planned.
I was unable to explain to her that because she had been so adamant that she was doing something else that day, I had already made other plans myself for Saturday. While I really do want to go, especially if S8 is going to be there, I really need to get my car serviced, as I won't have another chance to do so for some time. But I am willing to put that off for S8's sake. I also have another bible study and dinner meeting that night too. In other words, I too have some events that are important to me. However, I can't say anything to xW about that or else she'll start exclaiming to me and to my S's that I am too selfish to truly consider the needs of my S's.
xW really got me in a very agitated state. I told her that I had kept her informed all along of this event -- she knew when I knew, but because I did not put it in writing she said it didn't happen. Thus I suck at communication. So I told her the conversation was effectively over, because verbal don't work with her -- she can put anythign wants to say to me in writing, and I'm not going to ever waste my breath with her anymore.
It is becoming apparent that xW is going to try to either commandeer Scouting away from me or do everything she can to ruin my enthusiasm for it. She has gotten to be so toxic to me that I just don't relish her trying to horn her way into this one small avenue I have carved out for me and my S's. But I will do what I must, endure what I must for what is best for my S's.
Ok, refresh my memory, you're divorced but still ironing out the parenting agreement?
If (or hell if not for the matter) scheduling should have had a loosely put paragraph afore the "rules" and after stating that it is understood that as lifestyles and needs of the kid(s) change that certain flexibility is entrusted to the parents withing reason to agreement for the well being of all parties. Something to that effect.
Umm, so, other than the fact you told her of the event, I do remember you mentioning it here, what's the big deal in the first place?
Why don't you take him to the meeting on Saturday and allow your X to keep him an extra night or pick him up on Friday of her next weekend? Or simply take him dinner or something during the week for a few hours to "make it up"? I certainly won't swap days, my X knows that, and thus this practice HAS worked thus far.
Just an idea. Another idea (more like recommendation), go into a soundproof room and let it all out brother, you're gonna drive yourself to the cardiac unit getting all worked up. There should be NO arguing when it comes down to the kids, you're right about that. But I think the BOTH OF you need to think outside the box a little more.
xW really got me in a very agitated state. I told her that I had kept her informed all along of this event -- she knew when I knew, but because I did not put it in writing she said it didn't happen. Thus I suck at communication. So I told her the conversation was effectively over, because verbal don't work with her -- she can put anythign wants to say to me in writing, and I'm not going to ever waste my breath with her anymore.
Verbal doesn't work with her! She either doesn't listen, twists what you say, is abusive, etc. You need to do what I do and just email re: the kids. Plus, if she gets abusive in an email you can and should print it out for the PC I'm thinking.
Last time X called me I hung up on him. I have never ever done that before, and would never, but I have told him over a dozen times just email, and I'm not going to waste my breath or time on that anymore.
Oh, we have a parenting agreement alright. It just doesn't adequately cover some of the insanity we get into with xW, obviously. I think that was where the parenting coordinator (PC) was thought to come in.
Hindsight being 20/20, I think xW was just spoiling for a fight with me, and I was fool enough to give it to her. I think she relished the chance to verbally insult me and put me down. I'm going to have to remember that from now on and completely avoid any conversation by voice with her that is more than a sentence or two. I'm not afraid of her but I think it best I not allow myself to become angry enough to shout back at her (I'm sealed up alone in my car and with a cellphone when this took place today.)
I am considering your recommendation. I might also need to get back into Martial Arts to burn off a little of this excess stress -- but then I realize it's not nearly as bad as it once was. If xW and I don't speak to each other when she's like that (which is all too often), I will be fine.
Karen, I should have hung up on her! I started to but then I decided to tell her the convo was over and then began to bow out peacefully and under control.
These ex's know all our buttons.
Funny thing is, I know her buttons too, and could have been merciless if I wanted to. But I'm just not cut that way, I guess.
Right, so I do get a little pleasure out of not letting him push my buttons or at least letting him know he did. Or if she leads you to believe it's an emergency, and it's obviously not, tell her to email you. Goodbye as you hang up.
Oh, of course we could be nasty too, but the high road is much nicer. If I acted like that, I would be so unhappy like I truly think they are. I mean just dealing with a couple minutes of them is horrible, and they have to live with themselves 24/7!!!
Nc~ She is toxic, and yes I do think she wanted to get you on that phone just to get you worked up.
definately stick to your plan with no communication with her other that email. She obviously cannot have an adult conversation with you about the kids.
Isn't it amazing how they have selective memory... I can't stand it.
Everything is about what is being done to them.. get out the violin...
This was an attempt to make it look like you were the bad guy for not telling her, when she is the one who was taking him away from an event that he wanted to participate in.
she is one piece of work...
Thinking of you... hang in there... shes the crazy one.
((((((hugs))))
It's funny, Irish, I was thinking the same thing -- chalking xW's behavior to insanity. And then realizing that meant I had been falling back into old patterns by treating her as a rational person and giving her the benefit of a doubt about her concerns. It's like I have been failing over and over again to understand and to "make real for myself" that my ex is truly a fractured, mentally-deranged person, despite the pretenses she puts on to the otherwise. I guess I just have a hard time with that because it sounds like just so much hyperbole, even to me when I am the one who's facing it. It still continues to amaze me the difference between this person and the one I thought I had married.
So I have determined to break my conditioning that seems to compel me to treat her as an average "normal" person -- she no longer deserves my benefit of a doubt. I keep backsliding in that arena however and I have to be more careful.
[Edit: This is not to say I will treat her as a wacko directly to her face. It just means I will practice a little more discretion and continue to secretly remind myself when I interact with her that she's sick. "Just smile and wave, NCB, just smile and wave. Buh-bye."]
...
I have decided to take S8 to the Cub-O-Ree. I am moving Heaven and Earth to arrange to do so, and it's going to cost me in multiple ways, but for my S's I will do what I must. I am going to owe xW a weekend day for this. I have threatened a couple of projects at work that have deadlines due today just to arrange for the time to get my car into the service center for some tires and alignment work, so I will have a safe car driving S8 down to the scouting event. It will mean picking up S8 in the wee hours of the morning in order to be on time for registration -- meaning I won't be able to catch up on my sleep that I lost this week being on-call and pulling late-night, early-AM duty. It will also mean being late to the Bible Study tomorrow night, if I make it at all.
I am recalling having been constantly under the gun and on the run like this back when xW was my W and she was dictating all our lives. It makes me think -- I am now so very glad that I am no longer married to a person like that!!! I am so sorry for my children, but I am now thankful that I am not regularly put into that meat grinder. Thank you, God!
[Edit: This is not to say I will treat her as a wacko directly to her face. It just means I will practice a little more discretion and continue to secretly remind myself when I interact with her that she's sick. "Just smile and wave, NCB, just smile and wave. Buh-bye."]
Heh, I think you an dI need to form a tag team at the current moemnt, my XW's is being all the sudden being all sweet and wanting to talk. We're to have a discussion at some point this week and I'm already not only trying to prep myself for whatever it could
possibly be this time, and exactly
which Xw will it be that I'm talking to?
Ya' Know, Dday, that's where my ex is different from yours, surely. Since the bomb, my xW has always, always been hostile towards me -- only the degree of her animosity varies. Sometimes she's even toned, condescending bt not overtly nasty. More often she treats me as if I were Quasimodo. Once in a blue moon she'll try to smooth talk me like she used to, and make it sound like she's a normal caring person who will sacrifice her own interests to do what's best for our children, even if it means playing nice with me. But I have come to recognize the mask she's wearing for what it is -- and now she knows it. So less and less does she even bother to try to sway me -- it ain't gonna' happen.
But it does seem that sometimes she attempts to put on aires with me as if to try to convince me she is still the type of mother who would really put her own interests aside for or secondary to her children's best interests. And I don't know why she bothers, because her actions, the fruit she bears, tells me otherwise.
For a very long time I did hold out hope that somewhere inside her was something of the person I had fallen in love with, married and had expected to live out the rest of my days with. But the last two, almost two and a half, years have beaten into my head the truth that that woman is no more, if she ever existed at all. Perhaps she was a fabrication all along.
Yes, you're right NCB, that is the difference, if you are certain yours just puts on an act, it's just an act. With my X, it's been almost clockwork that once every 3 or 4 months has an internal conflict where the person she was cries out for help to overpower the person she became.
I think the problem there is that since she convinced everybody around her that what she did had to be done, she really has no-one else to turn to and win that conflict, just me. Maybe that is why she has sent the request through the kids every now and then to reach out to certain members of my family?
I don't know. The company she keeps could care less of the truth. They are pretty much all divorcees and just want to live it up. Her immediate family are all money hungry, especially her father who she'd be at serious terms with should she finally kick OM to the curb, especially if the reason were a desire to put this all back together. I'm convinced her father only saw me as an investment, and when the M started going sour, so did that investment. How else can a father allow his married daughter to move in to his house with her "boyfriend" directly in front of his own grandchildren?
You see, there's just a lot of things that STILL don't add up at all. And when she gets the the look she has like now, last seen in July, where she questions what she's doing, and is open and truthful with me, I can safely say, it's not an act.
But the last two, almost two and a half, years have beaten into my head the truth that that woman is no more, if she ever existed at all. Perhaps she was a fabrication all along.
I could have written that post! I wonder though, I mean I think my X had horrible parents; self-centered, alcoholic mom, etc. But I think some of who you are as a person is who you associate with and what kind of actions you do. When X was married to me, I wonder if I helped him become kind of a better person, better character, he was a Sunday School teacher, etc. The last couple years he hangs out with immoral types of people and his actions are well, you know. I think hanging out with OW and his self-centered friends have been a bad influence on him. But that's what he chooses to do/be, so I just pray for him.
Anyway in my convoluted way, I was trying to say that maybe she was a better woman when she was married to you because of you.
You know, I can take some pity on a person for having a damaged upbringing -- my own ex had/has a flake of a self-serving mother and an alcoholic, mentally-vacant father -- but at some point each and everyone of us needs to take responsibility for the person we are today, who we choose to be, for our own words and deeds. Nor can one blame their faults on those they hang out with -- if you hang out with the wrong crowd, then that's your responsibility.
But I do agree with you, Karen, that often our spouses become better people through their relationships with us, for however long that lasts. My ex when we were dating told me many a time that she was proud of herself for choosing to be with me, for being with someone who for once would not treat her badly, unlike so many former boyfriends before.
It's funny how the history revision she spouts today reverses all that. She now claims that from the very beginning of our R she had to tolerate my "insufferable" personality and mannerisms, how I would always try to suppress her own thoughts and true personality.
What that tells me is that she has been a stupendous liar either now or in the past -- either way, in the end, it just proves she's just a stupendous liar.
So I tend to agree that perhaps she was indeed a much better person during the time we both tried to maintain our R. I look at what she does now, the very things she used to hold in such disdain and contempt -- carousing in bars with her new circle of "friends", drinking and carrying on like she has no need of acting like a responsible adult with two small children (things she would have chastised me for had I ever even so much as suggested such activities when we were married) -- and can see how far she's fallen with our R now dead and buried. Such a complete hypocrite she is.
Greeting my dear friend
The posts that you and Karen made are so RIGHT ON!! My H had a mentally abusive up bringing by both of his parents and that has spilled over to our relationship, but I the same lies here with me, that I have somewhat changed his personality in a good way, but as you know his bad side comes out often. Too often.
I have knowone to blame though. I knew he had some issues when I met him, so that is my own fault. I was young and was really attracted to him and the rest is history. It amazes me though how different a person I am today then I was when I met him. I was only 17, he was 24. Things have changed drastically.
I don't believe anymore that people should get married that young. I know for me, I didn't know what the heck I really wanted until I was in my late twenty's. Can't do much about it now.
As far as her hanging out in bars etc.. that is just inappropriate. Once in awhile to go out with friends are something is one thing, but on a regular basis is not responsible when you have small children at home that need your attention. Just my .02
I'll talk to you later...
Hi, Irish,
I think I need to explain a little more about my comment. I am pretty sure (or at least really hope) that xW does not participate in any questionable socializing while our S's are in her care. That I would not ever tolerate.
And I believe that her carousing is done each weekend she is with OM and the boys are with me, which means it's only periodic socializing in sports bars and pool halls -- i.e., away from little eyes and ears. I myself do not have any problems with folks taking part in such social gatherings, as I will myself participate with my own circle of friends once in a while.
What I find particularly hypocritical of xW is that all the time we were dating and while we were married, she acted like such the tea-totaling prude and would never, ever think of going to an establishment whose main attraction was beer and spirits, if she had a choice. The most she would ever allow either of us to share in was maybe a wine tasting once, maybe twice in the entire 17 years we were together. She frowned on alcohol in all forms and grudgingly tolerated me infrequently bringing beer or wine into the home to share with guests. The only reason she allowed the occasional bottle of red wine to pass our threshold was because of it's purported health benefits at one time. Even before we had children, i.e., before it made more sense to "act like responsible adults."
Most of this huge aversion to alcohol and all of the social aspects that go along with it in drinking establishments has to do with the fact that her father has been a serious alcoholic for all her life. It caused her so much pain through much of her formative years, being neglected by her father for the bottle. So at no point during our years together did I ever allow myself to become fully inebriated (drunk), out of sensitivity to her painful childhood.
Now, to see and hear of her behavior with this OM, to see just how far she will compromise her stated life-long system of values -- just to mold herself to his particular personality -- it makes my head spin. All those years trying to act responsibly for her sake and for the sake of my children, for her to just throw that away. It just convinces me how psychologically bent she has become.
What really gets my goat is that the same sensibilities that in her became overzealous prudishness at times are not curtailed to the "bar scene". She was while she was M'ed to me just as restrained in the bedroom too -- but I am just as thunderstruck to now realize she has loosened up a tremendous amount in that department too.
Seventeen years... <sigh>
It all makes me feel like such the fool... on so many, many levels...
You are not a fool, she is the fool who chose to ruin the family instead of trying to fix it. It was easier to take a different route instead of sticking through it with you and maybe letting herself go and be open for new things.
17 years is a long time, I hear you on that. Although you have gotten something wonderful out of it (your boys) its like I wasted all that time on someone who would just assume to throw it away when things got bad.
Its depressing, and sad. But I know that there are many people out there who have the same views as you do (you just have to find them) and you have to believe that you will be happy again with someone whom you can trust and live the rest of your life with.
The fear of the unknown is the worst.
Im not much of a bar person either, but if H was to ask me to go out for a bit, I would go, just to get out and be alone.
What's going on for tomorrow??
Hi, Irish, and thanks for that.
Back in my past, before xW came into my life, I used to be a lot more social, used to be open to meeting friends at pubs, bars, etc., used to regularly partake of a beer or a glass of wine at home or at friends' places. I used to do a lot of harmless and sometimes not-so-harmless things prior to dating my now ex. I began cleaning up my act as I got more serious about my career, and then it was about that time I met xW -- after which I eventually began to give up a lot of things I associated with my "youth", as an effort to improve myself and act like a mature, responsible adult.
By the time we got married, I had also given up a lot of innocent but costly hobbies too. Not just alcohol and carousing. I tried to replace them with healthier stuff and tried to involve my young bride in those too. Things like sea kayaking and other paddle-sports. But when I became a father, I gave up the riskier ones too.
I say all this because it appears to me, in retrospect, that I consciously let go of a lot of my old habits, hobbies and activities for the sake of pleasing my W and for the sake of my children.
Some would say I allowed my W to tame me. In that, I'd have to say that she got what she demanded -- only problem is that is not what she really wanted, not really, or so it now would appear. She thought she wanted me tamed and domesticated, but achieving that was likely what led her to lose interest in me, ...and to seek some of the "old me" in someone else.
Just musing...
What's going on for tomorrow??
My S's and I have been invited over to a friend's place for a Halloween party and Trick-or-Treating. Kids and adults alike are getting dressed up. I am looking forward to it, and I know my two are up for a lot of fun. The three of us are going as Star Wars characters, and that's going to be a huge lark for all of us. As long as it doesn't rain, we're due for a great time.
(I'll say it again: I am soooooo very glad I resisted xW's attempts to have me trade away Halloween for some other, lesser day.)
How is everyone else planning to spend tomorrow?
No kiddos. I'm going to a crafting party in the morning, then trying to catch up around the house tomorrow. Huge flea market (last one) on Sunday. Just trying to keep busy.
You sound like you'll have a blast!!
Murphy's Law.
I picked up my S's yesterday to begin our week of time together. S8 was sick and feverish and has remained so this morning. S4 is trying to get over his own sickness which started last weekend -- he still has a ragged cough, but is otherwise okay.
I can't take S8 out if he has any degree of fever -- I really hoped it would have broken during the night. So at this point, it's not looking very likely for us to be able to go out and enjoy the special occasion.
And now it's raining...
<sigh>
Hey, Donna, those sound like fun too.
Bundle up the big boy and drive around - his little brother can go to the doors with both bags (put a pic of big brother in his costume on the other bag). Betcha big bro can keep busy playing a gameboy or something while he waits for his treats to be delivered between stops. (Condo places are good - lots of doors, short walking distance).
Or, look for an old-fashioned movie to watch, like the black-n-white Frankenstein...
Chin up...
Thanks, Donna, those are good ideas. You're right -- we'll figure something out. I just want to make sure S8 doesn't expose any other kids to whatever bug he's got. His mother has also offered to watch him while I take S4 go door-to-door, but that will drive S8 up the wall. We're gonna' play it by ear.
How was the crafting party?
Had a blast! Then home, took a nap, then out to see ZombieLand with a friend. Came home to watch the new Halloween...
Hope you and the boys had a good time...
So how was your Halloween? I hope ok? I figure any holiday with our kids is super sweet, I don't care if they are sick. I really appreciate so much being with them now. I hate missing half the holidays!!!
Are your boys feeling better yet? Hope so.
Hello, Donna, Karen, all,
It's been weird. I just got back my Internet connection, having lost it and electricity yesterday.
Halloween went great. S8 was able to go and we did indeed have a blast. We went Trick-or-Treating with all our friends then we came back and had a great party. But S8 started to get a little sluggish and lethargic. He wanted to just sit down and bundle up, like he was chilled or something, and just watch some TV -- obviously still feeling the effects of his sickness. (I had urged him to take a nap earlier that afternoon, but he refused. Now he was feeling the impact.) He didn't seem to have a fever though -- and he did not want to leave.
S4 really had a blast. Most of the other kids were little girls, who he loved to run around with and chase (Oh, Good Heavens -- so early!) He was dressed up as Boba Fett from Star Wars -- that kid is so funny insisting that Boba Fett is a "good guy". He had several of us chuckling seeing him dance and bop around with the girls.
S8 went as a Star Wars clone commander, Captain Rex. He has been looking forward to wearing his costume with helmet and laser blaster for a long time now.
I went dressed up as Obi Wan Kenobi from the Clone Wars series, complete with armor plating and light saber. A little much, I admit. I wasn't the only adult who dressed up for this event, but I got a number of comments as I walked up with my two S's. One guy started to say something to me about how far I took our Star Wars theme, and I confidently grinned and said, "H*ll yeeeaah, I went all out!" More than half of the adults were fully attired in costumes, some more elaborate than others.
I ended up taking myself and the boys home before 9 PM, which was not too early but prudent. Late in the wee hours of the morning I checked on S8, just as I had all of Friday night, and found he was again running a fever.
Much of Sunday was spent trying to get S* and S4 to settle down so the older of the two could properly recover from whatever it is still making him sick. S8's temperature seemed to fluctuate between normal and fever. And he was playing and much too active between the peaks of his temperatures.
About mid-morning we lost power and I began to realize we needed to go out to get lunch, since I couldn't cook the meal I had hoped to. So I took them out to eat and to kill time at the movies until the power was restored. It's a good thing I did because the power was still off when we got back some four hours later -- fortunately the power finally did come back on just as I was dialing the power company. But Internet was still very spotty and went out entirely again until this morning.
Sounds like a great weekend....
NC,
Glad you enjoyed the weekend with your boys, glitches and all!
Nc.
Sounds like you had a blast... I could have been Queen Amidala...
LOL... I was a witch..
Glad you had fun, halloween is always a hit!
I hope your son is feeling better...((((hugs))))
Yes, it was. Thanks, ladies.
S8 has a touch of the flu, according to his doctor. Not H1N1, thankfully, but just the garden variety. She said he'll likely be out of school for most if not all this week. S8, for his part, was still wanting to go to his cub scout den meeting, but I said no. I'm the assistant den leader now, but I had already told the leader and the other parents I was going to be absent because of this. Spent a fortune on Rx's, but now I'm ready for whatever I need to help S8 get over this bug. Or so I hope.
Queen Amidala, eh? That'd be cute with the kabuki makeup too. (Hmmm. I guess I too am becoming a SW fanboy or something because while I was in that getup I couldn't help myself and began speaking in that stilted manner of Ewen McGreggor /Alec Guiness. Kept referring to S8 and S4 as "my troops". LOL.)
NC~ so sorry about S8... the flu stinks, keep him comfy with lots of things to watch on tv.
I told you that S3 middle name is anakin right?
So i love star wars!!
FI, really? Anakin? Wow!
NC, sorry to hear about your S8. Always a bummer to have them sick. I'm sure you're taking great care of him though! Glad they got to get out on Halloween too!
Anakin, yes, I recall that. That definitely makes you a fan. LOL. Anakin is S8's favorite Jedi, BTW.
A couple of weeks ago in our church there was one of the baptisms of a baby that occurs from time to time. They named this little girl Anaka, which seems to be a play on the more traditional name "Annika", but it immediately reminded me of Anakin. Wondered if the parents were SW fans.
It's funny. When xW and I were dating we quickly identified each other as fans of science fiction, in literature and popular media, but with specific and seemingly-subtle genre preferences. We both like Star Wars and Star Trek -- however she has always been more of the Trekkie and I more of the SW fan. Our S's recognize this difference in us today -- and I get a little chuckle in hearing how our S's take after me in preferring anything SW over "Mommy's" Star Trek.
Heh, heh.
Karen... yes actually his first name was going to be that, but we figured he would get teased!
Never been star trek fan, Idk, never really liked it, but definately SW!
Day 3 of fever and chills. Miserable.
This was when S8's own fever finally broke, after three days.
You sound awful, NC. I hope you are feeling better. Wish I could bring you some chicken soup--although maybe you're not up to that yet??? ((((((NC))))))
Thanks for looking in on me, Karen. I wish you could come on over with some soup too -- although not so much for the soup but to see you in person. Wouldn't want to expose you to this bug though--so how about a rain check?
I am feeling a little better this morning and am going to try to make the late service at church today. Hard to get me moving though.
NC,
I hope you are feeling much better today! Sending hugs your way! Get plenty or rest and drink that OJ. This might be a good time for you to rewatch Star Wars and get plenty of R&R.
OJ + Stoli = good as new.
I think going through all this stress makes us more prone to stuff. Maybe nature's way of making us relax/rest? I hope you are feeling better today!!!
Hope you are feeling better! The crud is no fun.
Get some more rest.
kat
Thanks, everyone. This just makes my heart go out to anyone who's contracted the even worse H1N1 flu strain. What I've had has been a cakewalk compared to what they have had to go through.
No more fever, for which I am thankful. I managed to drag my sorry self into work today and somehow made it through -- but not without being all drugged up. Right now I'm still fighting the lingering effects of the virus and possible secondary stuff -- my lungs feel like they're full of bristles. I think I need to turn in early tonight.
OJ + Stoli = good as new.
(That was my old drink back in the day. Haven't had any Stoli -- or any other vodka -- in close to 20 years. Stoli and Tropicana, a match made in Heaven.)
Yeah, haven't touched on it myself in quite a while myself.
I've been listening to/reading some good books lately. Just got through Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax. A lot of food for thought there on why too many of our young men are turning out as underachievers and slackers. There are a lot of things in our modern environment -- physiological, mental, emotional, cultural and spiritual -- contributing to the diminishment in raising real men. A definite call to arms for all parents of boys.
I'm also listening to the audio version of Cloud and Townsend's Boundaries, which I skimmed over a couple of years ago. Some good stuff there too.
I get a lot of mileage out of Audible books.
Sorry to hear you were sick ((((hugs)))). I dont like to post to often to db friends in the other universe for I never know who is watching
I see that you have the boys this wkend!! Great, have a good time. Do something fun... They may enjoy that movie the christmas carol...
Take care my friend. and enjoy!
Thanks, Irish,
I am doing much better. (Still got the chest congestion though -- when will this crud go away, I don't know.)
I am flat, flat broke right now, so no fun stuff for us that takes any money. Fortunately after all the rain last week this weekend's weather was absolutely gorgeous -- and going outdoors doesn't really cost anything.
The boys and I got out with S8's cub scout den and went to a state educational forest -- we had a presentation by a forest service ranger and then had a nice hike, helping to groom the trails as we went.
We also lost our Internet this weekend. It's amazing how my two S's now get so much of their entertainment via the Web -- Hulu and Boxee mostly -- and without an IP connection we all seemed a bit lost. But last evening we caught the Looney Tunes / Merry Melody marathon on cable. We were all busting our guts laughing at these classic animated cartoons. I consider this just one good effort by me to help cultivate my two S's properly on the finer things in life -- like Bugs and Daffy. LOL.
I'm in a bit of a foul mood. xW once again conned S4 to stay the night with her instead of coming home with me after S8 and I got out of cub scouts.
If that was not bad enough but xW had S4 upset about a (yet another) stuffed animal that she has him convinced he has to have in order to be able to sleep at night. She tried to get him to play on my sympathies, to connive me into driving an extra distance to get that toy and take it back down to him -- all so she can have him stay with her tonight. S8 was upset about this turn of events himself, and when he got on the phone to talk to his mother, he told her that S4 had the choice of coming back with he and his father (me) or doing without his new favorite bedtime toy (bless S8's heart for seeing this for what it was himself!)
But xW was already saddling S4 up in her vehicle and was already prepped to drive up to my apartment and back just to fetch this toy and retain control of S4 in her care tonight. Sure enough, she got to my apartment about the same time I did. I was steamed.
S8 and I were both saddened that S4 decided he was going to continue to stay with xW. S4 had already been very "brainwashed" against returning to my place of residence, even when he was already there in the parking lot.
I hate this person she has become. So nasty and underhanded. I'm tired of her gloating, interfering selfishness. Was there ever really any trace of a soul or conscious in that husk? I'll never know for sure -- I just know that there's nothing there now. Only nothingness.
I think that is so wrong. I think you should stick to the schedule 99% of the time unless there's an activity or performance or something they need to do. Are you still seeing the parenting coordinator, and if so, did you bring this kind of behavior up? I think it might be ok to be more flexible in most situations, but your XW is manipulative, and I don't think that's in anyone's benefit except her own...
NC,
I'm so sorry for her behavior. Shame on her for manipulating your son like that. Uggggghhhhh....
Hugs
Part of me wants to raise an objection, but then that would just make me look like the bad guy in denying S4 to stay an extra night with his mother. And in a way she is doing us a favor in watching S4 while I am with S8 in his Monday night cub scout meetings -- I just wish she would quit taking advantage of that to convince S4 to spend the entire night with her instead of just the evening.
To make matters worse, she forgot to pack the very same bedtime stuffed toy with S4 when returning him today. Fortunately S4 didn't seem to notice and managed to drift off to sleep tonight bereft of such comforts -- which just underscores my suspicion that xW instigated the whole tantrum S4 threw last evening over this toy.
I am now inclined to deny any further requests by S4 to stay with xW during my weeks of custody, except under special circumstances. Even if it makes me look like the bad guy.
Get used to it NCB, it don't get any better with time unfortuantely.
May I suggest getting a duplicate of this toy if possible?
The only person it is making you look like a bad guy to is your ex. I don't think that changes her thoughts of you anyhow so who gives a flying fig? Keep your time yours unless there is an emergency and let it go.
hugs, kat
May I suggest getting a duplicate of this toy if possible?
I considered that, but I have refrained from buying either child these bedtime toys for the express purpose that they become a crutch to their peace of mind and ability to sleep at night. The last such toy
I bought was two Christmas's ago was for S4 who had just turned 3. I don't get why xW continues to buy the both of them these toys that become so "indispensable" -- even for S8. He's eight years old now, in the third grade and a bear cub scout -- and yet his mother keeps encouraging his insecurities!
And now she's doing this with our soon-to-be five year old.
I guess I'm going to have to address this with the parenting coordinator the next time we meet -- in fact, I'm going to have a pretty large laundry list with me whenever that happens.
but I have refrained from buying either child these bedtime toys for the express purpose that they become a crutch to their peace of mind and ability to sleep at night.
ummmm, bear in mind, they are experiencing the pain and conseguence of divorce too.
so who gives a flying fig?
You're right. I couldn't care less what
she thinks anymore.
I do worry that I might give her ammo to help her try to alienate me from my S's, however. But as long as I retain the time I have with them, I should be able to counteract her negativity -- or that's the theory anyways.
ummmm, bear in mind, they are experiencing the pain and conseguence of divorce too.
That's true. I will keep that in mind. I just think we need to establish a moratorium on purchasing more and more of these items, and perpetuating this dependence into their teenage years.
NC,
I like the DDay's idea of buying a duplicate. My 18 year old daughter took her stuffed bulldog that she sleeps with to college with her. I got it for her in the seventh grade when she first tried out for the school's spirit dance team. She has always had something to sleep with. I don't look it as a crutch, just a comfort. I think by taking the bulldog to school with her she was able to take a little piece of home with her. As an adult I sometimes like to hug a pillow when I'm sleeping...lol.
Remember don't sweat the small stuff. By getting the duplicate animal your wife will lose one of her excuses to torment you. I'm sure she will find others, but this will be one less.
<sigh>
It would be alright if xW just bought them these toys and didn't proceed to encourage their anxiety and psychological dependence on them, making them a critical component for going to bed at night. She should just buy the toy and leave it at that.
It feels like I am facing having to "de-program" my kids at some point.
S4 still has the Triceratops I got him two years ago -- I make sure that one stays at my place now (it had "disappeared" for a time when it was transported to xW's.)
Unfortunately, both of my S's get fixated on a favorite bedtime toy, one that has to always be transported between each place and can lead to melt-downs and screaming fits if it is discovered missing at the appointed hour. Even the eight-year-old.
While I am not trying to oppose their "preferences", I am also trying to not encourage this either.
I guess a duplicate might offer the possibility that it would water-down the impact of one particular toy, maybe? Or would it lead to a veritable "arms race" with xW -- with each parent trying to out-do the other? I don't know. I need to think on this and weigh all the pros and cons.
NCB,
I have always stated to you that you let far too much of what your Xw does enrage you. That said, I emplore you to do something to take your focus off what she does. Study up on kids and how to handle and nurture them through the process and effects of divorce, NOW.
First off, they are not all that old, and your S8 if I remember correctly is much like my S12 who's emotional and mental age can vary with the change of wind speed, right?
Even without a broken family factored in, all kids grow out of thier phase with toys at their own pace, some never do and become avid collectors.
Seriously, there are plenty of resources on-line, start there. I give myself refreshers from time to time even being the child of divorced family. Take the 'fight' away from them.
NC, you know my D9's psychiatrist was saying the most important thing for AS kids with divorce is routine and trying to keep things the same as much as possible, and I know they have more problems with transitions than nt kids. Maybe their "lovies" help them to make the transition from house to house, and give them some extra security they need right now? I think the duplicate idea is great. I've been slowly doing that now as I can afford it, just their PE sneakers or anything that has gotten left over at their dad's.
Like I said, I will give this some consideration.
Hmmm, nope. Not in this case. Upset, irritated, perturbed -- yes.
Incidentally, my focus is on my S's, and xW knows the only way to get to me now is through them. For me to take my focus off of what xW does to irritate me would require me to ignore what happens with my kids -- not gonna' happen.
I have set my boundaries with her -- most of which are in areas that involve our children. Unfortunately, she has shown a predilection to overstepping those bounds from time to time, so the most I can do is to manage my own reaction to those offenses. For me, I have to accept that as the lay of the land now -- since she feeds off of the drama, I can't really do anything about her except to vent here in these forums, maybe. Only if she does something illegal or outside of our parenting agreement can I take it any further. That's just the way it is.
This is merely the cost of trying to co-parent with someone like xW. Otherwise, life is a-okay.
NC, I vent here too. I'm sure I sound like someone that spends all day wallowing over my X's actions, but sometimes it really helps to come here and vent, and have people that can really understand. Then I can go out and have a good, positive day and focus on the kids and all the good stuff in my life. I very much understand how frustrating it can be to deal with toxic-Xs.
Thanks, ((((((((Irish))))))),
Wish we could sit in a Starbucks or SBC together some time and enjoy a good latte.
...
<journaling>
I'm without the boys again. <sigh> I will miss out on Thanksgiving Day with them, and S4's birthday on Monday. That sucks. But I will plan a catch-up day next Friday to celebrate Thanksgiving and S4-5's birthday that evening.
Going to be a pretty quiet holiday for me on Thursday. I plan to make the most of it anyway.
I hope everyone here has a fantastic weekend and a very enjoyable Thanksgiving.
Hi NC,
Sorry you won't have the boys with you on Thanksgiving, but I'm sure you will more than make up for it. Have a great time with them!
Thanks, Yoyo,
Left a post on your thread too.
<journaling>
Interesting weekend. I went to another bible study meeting/dinner party at my friend's place. Met some new people, had some good conversations. The conversations got me recalling a number of things that have come up in recent history regarding my S's and xW. Some things I had tried to gloss over, put to the back of my mind, but came to the fore when catching up with friends. Much of this I have related here in these forums already. Other details got me thinking again.
I want to document these here before I lose track of them again.
Last week, we were somehow discussing sharks while I was driving my S's home. S8 then just spontaneously restated the incident that occurred when xW took them on vacation to Myrtle Beach -- with the OM. It involved S8 and OM going out in an inflatable kayak beyond the breakers, where the rip currents form. I have never gotten the full story but they capsized way off shore and got into a bit of trouble trying to get themselves righted. S8 cannot swim. Needless to say I was p*ssed about the whole thing, hearing about it only later after they got back. I said nothing to xW, just filed it away for a list of grievances I will bring to the parenting coordinator when it comes to that.
This time, however, when S8 piped up in our conversation about sharks and began to relate again about this Myrtle Beach incident, he stated that his mother had refused to go into the raft/kayak with them because they had seen lots of sharks from the pier earlier and -- get this -- she was afraid of there being sharks in the water while out in the raft.
My mouth fell open and I wanted to throw a fit, but I kept my cool and calmly told S8 that I did not approve of any of these reckless activities with OM. I said it is apparent from S8's description of the events that OM is a foolish, untrained person who has no concept of the risk to which he is placing my S's in, and that I would like for S8 to never go out alone with OM is in such a questionable manner again. Still, I said his mother is charge of them when they are with her and there was nothing I can do about that, but to try to express to the both of them they really need to be extra careful for their own sakes when I am not there.
Some of you will likely read me the riot act for making such a statement like that before my S's, undermining (supposedly) the trust these children are supposed to have in their mother. And you know what? Until S8 related the additional information about why his mother did not join in, I would have agreed with that sentiment.
However, when my ex is more interested in promoting the OM to my S's than she is in their very safety, that leads me to conclude she is a reckless fool who would sacrifice their security for her own gains. I mean,
come on! She thinks it is unsafe for her to go on this little venture because of her own percieved threat (real or not) concerning sharks -- but she'll send her own child out into that very danger?!?
(At the same time I am disgusted with xW on another level -- it's been over two years now she's had this slavish, puppy-dog attachment to the OM, so when the h*ll is this fog ever going to lift for her? When one or both of our S's end up
dead?)
...
Last week's den meeting, S8 was acting pretty hyper. I had a hard time getting him to settle down and pay attention to what our den leader and other adults were saying. Several of the boys in the den were the same way, to one degree or another. S8 seemed particularly difficult.
I overheard a couple of the other parents talking, relating about how the boys were are all being big handfuls. I caught what one mother said about S8, how she was glad she didn't have to deal with a boy like S8 every day.
I kept smiling and pretended I didn't hear what she said, but it hurt. For my sake and for S8's sake. I know how he sometimes becomes difficult to handle, disruptive of the groups of people he's around. But most of that is attributable to his Asperger's and his sensory integration issues -- and he can't help it. And I know the mother who spoke didn't mean anything malicious, just stating the facts without understanding the situation, without understanding that S8's ability to maintain his control in crowds of people has it's limits. She doesn't know how difficult it can be for an AS child, for if she did she would be amazed at how well he is able to contain himself today compared to how he was even two years ago.
So I understand her thoughts and can forgive her ignorance. Yes, S8 is difficult and trying at times, even to me. But I am so thankful at how far he has come in the last few years, heck, even the last few months. And I look at how his peers behave, and I realize that S8 is no where near as uncharacteristic in his behaviors than they are. They're all just high-energy boys -- S8 is just a bit more-so.
...
There are a number of other things, but I'll likely make note of them later.
Alright, I'm not going to read you the riot act, BUT, have you at random times had the details of this shark event told to you with consistancy?
nc ~ starbucks ? Latte? Ok im there... too bad you didn't live closer
I, will not be the one giving out any 2 x 4's on your comment to s8, because there is nothing I would have done differently. When their safety and/or health is involved to me there is no boundaries... and there certainly is no holding back.
She is severly clouded by an infatuation with a man, over her worrying about her children's well being. Im sorry, but to me that is the definition of being "unfit".
Ignore what that lady said about S8, unless she is walking in your shoes, she has no idea what you are going through. I have a friend whos son is autistic and it takes its toll on you. I know they aren't the same, but you know what I mean. I think for the most part, most boys are active and hyper alot of the time, I know my boys are, and they get on my nerves, but they are kids.
Hang in there, making notes is a good way to remember, I should start doing the same thing, just with life in general.
((((nc))))
Thanks, Irish.
If I allow myself to stop and think for a moment I find it quite unnerving, scary even. Even now I tend to take it for granted that xW is, if nothing else, a good and conscientious mother -- and she has never, ever let me think otherwise if she has a chance to have input into my thinking. She has always tried very hard (too hard) to be a strong, decisive mother to our S's, the "super-mom", even rubbing my nose in it at times when I don't measure up the same. That, coupled with her "all-knowing", "unquestionable" Nursing skills, has lead me to dub her the "uber-RN". She wants everyone to assume by rote that she always knows what's best for the safety, health and education of our children.
But when I consider something like this...
...I have to conclude that she's a fraud. It also underscores in my mind that my W is truly dead, in every sense of the word except that her body is still animated.
I have always suspected that people actually lose their souls long before the life has left their bodies. A lifetime of sins and inequities leech away at their souls till eventually nothing is left but the living husk.
Sorry to be so morbid.
NC, I think anyone would be upset to hear their children were in danger. No 2x4s from me. I do think this one should be at the top of the list for the parenting coordinator!
Re: your S8. I used to overhear comments about my D10 as well. She would constantly be in motion and liked to jump around (like Tigger) for long periods. Around 9 years old though it just seemed she grew out of that quite a bit, and then I started overhearing everyone say how great and well-behaved she was. This past summer when she was in the play, one of the teenagers was telling the other kids they need to act more like my D10! I think boys take a little while longer to mature than girls too, but I think you will find their behavior gets gradually better and better, or at least that's been the case with my 2.
Thanks, Karen. I really appreciate hearing that. I do realize and see in S8 that every day he gets a little better. It has been a slow, arduous process, but I can look back and see how far he's come and how he is continuing to progress.
Academically he is doing well. He still has this strong aversion to writing (especially the very mechanics of it), but in every other subject he is doing well. Like many AS kids, he has no problems with Math or Reading.
He is doing well enough, in fact, that early next month he will be taking the COGAT. His teacher thinks he is brilliant enough to be selected for this test. His only failing is in the emotional realm and in the sensory-integration realm. As such it is still a struggle to help him learn self-control.
Cognitively, I'd say S8 is about two years ahead of his peers, but emotionally, he is at least two years behind them. I have to watch him to make sure he doesn't lapse into laziness, since he is more than capable of doing the work but his emotional maturity leads him to want to get out of it even more so. He will "melt-down" if things exceed his ability to cope. Thankfully, that has eased considerably since entering the 3rd grade, and I expect this progresss to continue as he gets older.
S8 can also be pretty wily too at times, if one doesn't keep on him. Again. he's often too smart for his own maturity level. That's typical for lots of kids, but more-so for some AS kids like S8.
Have you ever thought of having a topic at the den meetings about the differences in people? For example talking about disabilities some apparent and some not and how kids should try to not judge because you never know the whole story.
Adults sometimes were never taught that I am afraid. Maybe it would be a good lesson for everyone.
kat
Not a bad thought, Kat.
I think we all tend to lose sight that we're all very much different and unique, while at the same time very much alike. A paradox of sorts. But one too easy to overlook. It is each of our own self-centeredness and arrogance that leads us to think that everyone else in the world is like oneself, and where not like us, to think they should be.
God made every one of us all different from one another, but he loves us all equally.
Happy Thanksgiving Nc... I know your not with the boys today.. Im thinking of you. Try and get out and go see friends.
Take care xxoo
Thanks, Irish.
Had a quiet day at home alone yesterday. But I was busy cooking and prepping for my own Thanksgiving dinner -- roasted an excellent 12 pound turkey, made dressing, green bean casserole, etc. I even nailed the turkey gravy too -- turned out just right. Dessert was apple pie (given to the employees at work).
I enjoyed a sumptuous meal in gratitude and in solitude, but I will really celebrate this evening when I pick up my two S's and serve them from my little feast. I can hardly wait.
I'm at work now. Been negotiating with ex via email over the Christmas wish list our S's have their hearts set on. The big item of contention (always sems to be some point of contention) is S8's wish for the $400 Lego set he's had his eye on for months and months.
That's a lot of money for a single Christmas gift for a single person. In my day, Santa Claus had his limits. But xW doesn't think so.
Up until recently S8 had been saving his own allowance up for this big ticket item, and I was very supportive of that. But with Christmas looming he's given up and wants to let Santa Clause take up the cause for him. I had hoped ex would have helped put the kibosh on that alternate plan, but obviously not. She has even allowed S8 to blow most of what he has already managed to save on other things. Gee, thanks, xW.
Now I'm stuck. I have proposed S8 put up the remainder of his allowance, about $90, towards the Lego set and Santa would cover the rest (ex and I would split this cost evenly). This is going to be a very expensive Christmas in a year I am still very much seriously in debt because of all the legal bills exW caused me this year.
And we haven't even addressed what S5 is wanting yet. <sigh>
It's so funny. (Sad funny, not "ha-ha" funny). If this had come up while exW and I were still married -- that is, back at a time when my money was "our" money -- xW wouldn't even think about blowing so much dough on a single, somewhat frivolous gift for one of our kids -- she would have said it was too much and coached S8 to find something more reasonable. But now that my money is involved, she has no problems in frittering it all away. Yes, she's supposedly chipping in too, but since I subsidize her costs anyway through CS payments, it's just not the same impact for her.
I also worry about the precedence this sets for S8's expectations. I love my kids and I want to figuratively spoil them, but I don;t want to literally spoil them.
Divorce sucks on all counts.
I keep reflecting on the experience I had yesterday afternoon while picking up my kids, taking custody of them from xW. They were all over at her mother's place, so I had to pick the boys up there --this was because xW and the ex-MIL were starting their annual Christmas cookie baking. This has been their tradition for quite a number of years now, making trainloads of various cookie recipes to send to friends and family -- except, since the bomb I have been left out in the cold. But that's to be expected, or rather, something I have come to expect given the sour nature in which xW has decided to view me.
So when I knocked on the door to get my kids, I was prepared to be assailed with the smell of baking cookies and to see the various card tables set out with racks and racks of their product. What I didn't expect was to see the OM right there among them. He was acting in a servile manner, helping to watch my kids and to lend a hand to xW and the ex-MIL is an obsequious fashion. So effiing "whipped", he is!
xW opened the door and called to my S's to get their shoes on and to gather their things to go with me. And then, in passing and in a weak, muttering voice, xW added to me, "Oh, and NCB, this is OM. OM this is NCB." And it dawned on me that she was finally, after nearly twelve years, introducing me to this person she has been dealing with at work and now sleeping with. My immediate thought was why now?
OM looked very sheepish, said a weak "hi" and then tried to stay out of view of the doorway (freakin' coward!), as I was not entering the abode under these circumstances.
I tried to act calm and nonchalant, but I quickly loaded my car with our S's belongings on a couple of trips and then hurried my two out the door. xW followed us outside, to see us off, and I just could not make eye contact with her. After all this time trying to get to the point that I am indifferent to her, I was reeling with the thought that I had been totally replaced in my own family, seeing this OP there with them all, getting ready for the holidays. I felt again the pain of betrayal and being relegated to obscurity, like the fledgling who's been kicked out of his own nest by the cuckoo. At the same time I felt this intense disgust for this person who had supposedly at one time been my W, and contempt for this worm of a person she has chosen over me.
I can't seem to fathom what the H' has happened to cause this to happen to me, to us, to my family. Since then I keep periodically remembering yesterday and that recalling of these emotions that I had hoped were behind me. It doesn't help that I had just gone through a major holiday all alone because of this very situation -- which I thought I'd be able to tolerate, that is, until I run into scenes like this.
Side note: Some people grow impatient with betrayed spouses, not understanding the aversion these LBS's have with the OP. Yes, it is the wayward spouse who shoulders much of the real blame in these situations -- that is certainly true. But in no way does that absolve the OP of their own contribution to the crime that has been committed. Until one has actually experienced for themselves being on the receiving end of the sin of infidelity, they just won't truly understand the depth of that pain of betrayal we feel. Those who downplay or even belittle the sentiments of the betrayed just don't have a clue, not one stinkin' clue.
Lest anyone worry, I have had a great time with my S's this weekend again so far since then -- I just wish I could get that scene out of my head now! Uuugggh!
wow--I'm sorry that happened to you. no matter how far we think we've come, when we have to look the devil in the face it tends to shake us down to the core.
I can so relate to that awful sense of being replaced in my own family, feeling betrayed, being relegated to obscurity. it's a horrible feeling. In my case, it's my exH who's the servile, weak one; this blustering, selfish, larger-than-life man who did whatever he damn well pleased in our marriage no matter who it hurt, now takes great pleasure in mucking out horse stalls and rubbing his honey's feet after a hard day at work. What a worm he's become.
(((((((((((((((((NC)))))))))))))))))))))
Even though I managed to get my M back on track I still don't know what I would do if I saw OW.
As usual you took the high road and I have immense respect for you. I a sorry that you are hurting so badly - your xW is some act!
Just keep looking at those wonderful sons of yours. If you hadn't met and M'd your W they would not be here. They are what matters.
I think you are an amazing dad.
So sorry to hear of that NC. I never drop off or pick up the kids at X's unless I'm 100% certain he (and OW) aren't there. We have a halfway point we meet at (a dollar store) where we drop off and pick up the kids. Prevents that kind of stuff. I'm sure I don't want to see OW, and he won't want to see me with a BF ever either. That introduction was weird, after 12 years, how strange!!!
You did take the high road. I'm not surprised. I don't know if I would have been able to.
I haven't been through that yet, it seems like it would be very difficult. How thoughtless she doesn't share some cookies for you and your boys also from what you were saying? How very unChristmas-like....
Thanks, all.
Hoozh, after trying to help you think positively and give you hope during your own holiday solitude, I allowed my own PMA to get torpedoed in an instant by this unexpected encounter. The sad thing is that as weaseling and wormy as the OM has been, I also have the prior correspondence from xW to OM that documents her own pathetic, co-dependent pursuit of him like some lost school girl. They're equally disgusting in that regard.
Saffie, I really, really appreciate your kind words. I think my reaction was not quite so heroic as you seem to make it out to be -- I just plodded along with my plan to gather my S's and take them with me, while trying my hardest to ignore the scene to which xW set up and had failed to tell me. She had emailed me earlier that day to inquire about the time of my arrival and had then told me where she and the boys would be by that time, even mentioning she and the MIL would be baking Christmas cookies at MIL's apartment, but at no time had she warned me that her (other) partner in crime would also be present. Needless to say, I did not appreciate the surprise.
And I agree, the only positive thing left from my M are my children.
Karen, in trying to save my M a year ago, I have allowed my now ex to set the precedence for how the kids are to be picked up and dropped off. That has been to my increasing chagrin. Had I a chance to do it all over again, things would be a lot different. As such, the evil MIL's apartment is now what XW considers "neutral ground" (Ha!) for picking up and dropping off the kids. Not only has MIL never been "neutral" (far from it) she had met and become quite chummy with the OM long before the bomb, within my own home even.
And it's not like I haven't seen OM at xW's place before this. I have shown up at the ex's place only to slowly discover that the OM was keeping back somewhere out of sight in her apartment. I tend to not enter any further than the foyer, especially since the divorce, so I can't tell you how many times I might have stopped by and OM might have been skulking in the shadows somewhere out of sight.
But this was the first time I encountered the fraktard over at MIL's place, and right in the midst of a major holiday activity for xW and MIL. The two women would undoubtedly have been pretty involved with their "operation", so it's not like it was going to offer him any real quality time with xW. And vice versa. I am certain xW had him there for the express purpose of thumbing her nose at me -- she knew exactly what she was doing.
Part of me wanted to smile at the obviously petty drama she was stooping to. The other part of me got angry and disgusted. I think she saw the look on my face as I immediately put on my "all-business" face, cut off the opportunity for chitchat, and speeded my sons out the door. That's when she made that half-hearted attempt to assuage the situation and tried to play the fumbling diplomat by offering that weak introduction to her accomplice.
What this little stunt also tells me is that xW has decided to become more and more brazen in flaunting her "boyfriend" before everyone, even me. She's effectively saying she's going to start including him in all of her events and activities. Whatever the consequences.
The cookie thing is water off my back. I got over her pettiness in that and have long ago come to expect no quarter from her on any account. Last December she sent the boys over for one of my weeks having packed each of them a small snack bag with some of her precious Christmas cookies, each labeled with their names on them -- the message was perfectly clear: the cookies she sent my way were for the boys alone and not for me. That was and is okay -- I want nothing from her anymore beyond what is my due.
She took her love away, she can take her eff'ing cookies away -- they're both just as meaningless to me now. What she cannot take from me are my S's.
I had another "conversation" with S8 this afternoon, driving back from church. Once again, he took a normal conversation between he, S5 and myself and veered it into an area we should have stayed away from. I took umbrage with S8 parroting xW about how OM has been a "long-time friend of our family" -- and I had to correct him. I told S8 that OM was a "stranger" to our family, that he might have been a "friend" to his mother, but he was never, ever a friend to our family -- I had never met him, and I am/was the head of the household. I went on further to tell S8, that OM was never and is not a friend to S8 or S5 either, as he has been an enemy to their family all along.
I also told S8 that he and his brother should never have been even introduced to OM or made to spend any time with him -- it is not proper for a single parent to introduce their children to their paramours until/unless they have set an engagement and plan to get married. Otherwise it is highly unfair to the children.
We had a bit of a conversation about this. Basically, I explained how damaging it could be to children of D should this love interest suddenly disappear, as often happens. I explained that allowing children like S8 and S5 to form attachments to someone who might very well disappear some day, because the adult R is dissolved, can cause much emotional duress and exacerbate their damaged trust in their parent.
S8 wants to believe that his mother would not do anything to actually harm he and his little brother -- which I concurred and confirmed, but I also added that her intention to not bring harm to them does not preclude her from making foolish mistakes anyway, thereby inadvertently causing them harm. I told them that their mother does indeed love them both with all her heart, but that does not in any way mean she's infallible.
Now some of folks think that breathing anything, so much as a word, to one's child that might undermine a child's trust in their parent is tantamount to the highest crime. This is a delicate matter, of course, but I will not lie to my children. And the experts I read tell me that being open and honest with your children, within discretionary bounds, matters far, far more than trying to protect the other parent's ego. I refuse to help xW spin her web of lies and deceit -- absolutely no good will come of that. And if I hear her brainwashing leeching through the words and deed of our S's, I will take measures to counteract her efforts. I will not drink her kool-aid and I will do what I can to prevent her from giving it to our S's.
(((((NC))))),
I'm so sorry you had to experience this unpleasant meeting. I had to face the OW with H at the wedding of the son of some of our dear friends. My only consolation was that they were pretty much shunned at the reception. We have to live by the mantra, "What doesn't kill us, will only make us stronger."
You are doing well my friend and will continue to do so. Hang in there.
Hugs, Yoyo
NC, I had a similar conversation with my two at their therapist's request. Just a short conversation. My kids know I always tell them the truth, and I know at least S16 has told me he knows his dad has lied (about OW just being a friend). I think they do realize more than we realize also. I like to think they see our mistakes and learn from them. I know I've done that in my own life, or tried to.
Yoyo, I had that experience too. I realized later, last time at the theatre when D10 had her play this summer, I had tons of friends supporting me and hugging me after her play. One of my good friends said X just kind of cowered in the corner looking at his watch repeatedly and then ran out as soon as he could grab D. These were his friends too before the OW, but they've made it clear how they feel I think. Maybe good for them to realize how generally people feel about them apart from close friends and family that may be too scared or whatever to let them know how they feel.
NC, I just had read something like this recently, happy people don't try to make other people miserable, which it's clear your X works hard to do! I don't think happy people have to stage a performance or whatever to show how happy they are; they just are. You know I think the WAS have a lot of pressure on themselves, their own fault of course, but they break up the family and then they have to try to convince themselves it's worth it; they're happier or whatever, but I think a lot of our X's are just basically unhappy for whatever reason, and looking to an OP to fill that eventually isn't going to work.
Yoyo,
If I didn't say it before, I'll say it now -- I am impressed with your nerves of steel in that situation. And it is absolutely fantastic and encouraging to hear that so many family and friends of yours are so supportive of M and against what your H has done -- although I'll state that you are most of the reason why they have decided to stand with you.
Thanks for your encouragement.
Karen, I don't doubt that xW is really miserable down deep in what's left of her soul. But she has psyched herself against ever recognizing that, much less admit it. I know full well she uses others, more specifically R's, to cover up the emptiness that is inside her.
I know you can never trust anything a WAS says to you, but if I take even part of what xW has said to me as fact, then I can read between the lines to see that she placed the full responsibility for her happiness in our M entirely on me. That is a foolish thing for anyone to do, to attempt to rely on another mortal person for one's happiness. And yet I don't doubt xW has now pinned her hopes on OM-- and I am convinced that he certainly cannot and will not live up to her unreasonable expectations. In fact, no one can; it's impossible.
I like hearing news of how the "good guys" sometimes win. You and Yoyo and others are so personable and endearing, it's no wonder your friends will rally around each of you.
The sad thing is that my xW has ordered her environment to only include enablers and other supporters of her indulgences. She only now only associates with people who will either embrace or turn a blind eye to her faults. I strongly doubt she would ever subject herself to the possibility of being treated as the lowly social outcast because of her behaviors -- those are venues she will avoid like the plague wherever she can. She absolutely blew off and rejected my brother's wife, for example, someone she had seemed to have a lot of camaraderie with, that is, until she got wind that my SIL was separating from my brother -- then and only then did she secretly contact my SIL to try to foment an alliance and to encourage her to seek a D as well. Two years of the hostile and cold shoulder towards my SIL until xW thought she could take advantage of the situation in my brother's family. (Sadly, my SIL, after having expressed deep hurt and resentment against my xW for how my ex has treated all of us, decided to then side with xW after reconnecting with her. This was in June and I haven't had more than a couple of words with SIL since then. My ex has succeeded in alienating even a member of my side of the family from me -- which is something she swore to me she would never do. But then xW broke her wedding vows, right? So her word is worthless anyway.)
Enough ranting though. I now have to piece my PMA back together and keep moving onward.
I think that's a huge thing I've come to realize. Who you surround yourself with can make you a different person, for the better or worse. It's a shame your X hasn't realized that yet, if she ever will.
I always wonder if they see us doing the opposite of them, and the peace we have, well usually :), if that will help them to realize their mistakes. Not my problem, I know I shouldn't think like that...But I think you really have to work on insulating yourself from the crazy and mean in your X; I know how tough that can be!
(((((((((((nc))))))))
I am so sorry to even had to face something like that, in the throws of a holiday tradition. She obviously is a cold-hearted Biotch to not even for one second consider the fact that having him there while this is going on may possibly be a cruel thing to do to you.
I have no respect for this woman at all. She is being so ruthless and mean spirited that it does worry me what your boys are overhearing from her...
You are a wonderful father nc, and I commend you on controling yourself at that moment, but I also wouldn't have blamed you if you had said something to her.
Being honest with your children is all you can do and that is what they need from at least one parent, and your that parent. They will in time see her for what she is...
Take care of yourself.
t
Hi, Karen,
I am certain that in xW's foggy mindset she thinks her circle of "friends" are good, admirable people. They support her and enable her, so they have to be such wonderful people, in her view. Why else would she gravitate towards them?
Is it rational? Is it sound thinking? No, it's a form of narcissism and self-delusion.
Hi, Irish,
but I also wouldn't have blamed you if you had said something to her.
Oh, it did indeed come to mind in the spur of the moment to say something. Several things. But I have, I think, finally figured out that saying something then, and causing a scene, would give xW exactly the very drama she seeks. So that more than anything stayed my words.
Thanks for your comments and kinds words, BTW.
<Journaling>
I had a very difficult, trying day yesterday (Tuesday). It began with S8 having another one of his feet-dragging episodes, where he allows every little thing to distract him -- and by extension his little brother as well -- into being perpetually late.
Many of you can relate.
Fortunately, S8 has gotten a lot better in the last few months, but not entirely. Yesterday, however, was one of the worst -- I won't go into the details, but we ended up more than 45 minutes late -- and S8 missed the bus. xW was calling and leaving voicemails. When we finally got to the xMIL's place to drop off S5, xW was there waiting.
I was going to make S8 walk from there to his school (a little less than a mile), so as to make him finally face the natural consequences of his poor decisions. But xW and the xMIL both objected to that. I had to quickly relent when xMIL started to take S8 to school herself. I drove S8 to his school -- but when I got there I, I stopped at the edge of the school grounds and had S8 walk in from there (I gave him a warning that
if there was ever a next time he would he would be walking a lot further.)
Then that afternoon, when it came time to pick both of my S's from the xMIL's place after school, xW was again there spending time with them. xW has frequently taken advantage of having her mother as the daycare provider to get in extra time with our S's during my weeks. I wouldn't mind this so much except that it often causes major disruptions to S8's and S4's routine and their expectations. This time, the minute I came to the door, S5 immediately began to beg/demand that he get to stay with his mother that night. xW feigned this surprised look and said that it was up to his daddy (me) to decide whether or not he could stay or not. So having worked on S5 and having succeeded in coercing him to spend one of my nights with her, xW wanted me to play the bad guy in denying S5's plea.
Usually, I have acquiesced when S5 made such pleas, but for once I put my foot down. The schedule is the schedule, and the children do not get to make the decisions about custody. That cuts both ways. So, I said no.
S5 had a complete meltdown, but again I decided to hold my ground -- to be the parent. Despite his fitful tantrum, I gathered up S5 and loaded him in my car.
As I fully expected, I soon received a biting email from xW about how I was treating our S's. First, she said she hoped I had (better) watched over S8's walk to his school building -- which I had. But I didn't need her to tell me to do that. (In fact, what none of them realized, is that if I had gotten my way in making S8 walk the entire distance from MIL to his school, I would have covertly tailed him the entire way in my car just to make sure he got there safe and on time.) xW also said that she considers it my responsibility to get our kids up and to get to school on time.
Second, she had to comment about S5 and how five year olds "need their mommy".
I replied to her that coddling our S's might very well be the easier path to take, but also highly irresponsible. It is the direct responsibility of a school-age child to get up in the morning and to get themselves ready for school, not the parent (except indirectly). Children need the guidance of their parents, not a human alarm clock and cattle-prod.
(Here, as elsewhere, I am taking my cues from the writings and advice of noted experts like Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Kevin Leman. In particular, I am instituting Reality Discipline in raising my S's.)
The ex's view is that my approach to handling our kids ranges from "negligent to abusive". She said, "You feel that loving your kids is coddling." And for that she says she now "regrets" agreeing to 50/50 shared custody.
The gist is that exW wants to baby both of our S's, and at the same time try to claim that as being more "loving". All the while insinuating her repeated claims that I lack empathy.
I disagree. I believe it takes a lot more effort to not coddle one's own children, but to have enough love for them to teach them discipline. This is not easy for me either. I do not like having my kids go through the pain of consequences, but for them to live and grow up healthy, it is far better they learn it now.
So I commented to xW that she continues to to exhibit an immature, selfish view of what constitutes love.
...
Today, however, was perfectly fine and in stark contrast to the day before. S8 had no serious problems being on time. And S5 did not try to ask to go be with his mother (thankfully, I beat her to her mother's this time.)
(((nc)))) Boy do I know those days. It is trying time, and im just dealing with S4 being extremly stubborn. I am guilty of coddling my boys, but my reason is exhaustion. I unfortunately do not have the full support of my H in handling my kids. He is either not here, or just leaves me to be the one who does the punishing, and the "taking care of their needs". He just plays wih them, and thats it, and if he does get involved with something that I am punishing him for, he doesn't back me up.
Your exw is damn lucky to have you to be that other person who can take on some of that burden. I wish I could be more stern with my kids, and sometimes I am, but its really hard when im always by myself.
You aren't doing anything wrong, you are trying to show them responsibility and it is FOR SURE harder to stick to your guns then to just "cave"...
Im glad today went better for you.
Your doing great nc... you know she will always take a stab at you whenever she can... that''s her hang up.
Take care.
t
but my reason is exhaustion.
Oh, don't I know it! It is so hard and so exhausting to try to hold the line with your children. It takes up so much energy! And you want them to be happy and you really want to give into them, but you just can't. You just can't.
I am constantly questioning myself about when I should show them mercy or when that would cause more harm long term than good. For their sake, I don't want to be a mere marshmallow but I don't want to be an authoritarian either. I am still trying to find the right mix.
Right now I can't get either of them to stop fixating on toys, especially Legos. All I hear now that Christmas is so close is about all these Legos and games and stuff they want. I am trying to shift their focus off of all these material things, but it seems impossible, especially since xW uses that as her "currency" to get what she wants out of them. It's just ridiculous ... and very disheartening.
Uggh! Now, after the last two years of me being on the short end of the Christmas (and Thanksgiving) holiday stick, xW suddenly wants to renegotiate the parenting schedule since this year calls for her to be essentially out in the cold.
She's basically crying sour grapes over a situation that she and her L came up with. Now she doesn't want to be on the receiving end. She was even attempting to shame me into considering her alternative plan, saying how I decide on that will show just what kind of person I am. That just peeves the sh*t our of me.
But I'm just too freakin' nice. I just offered her a compromise, even though she deserves nothing, considering how heartless she was in '07 and '08.
I think sometimes our WAS are short-term thinkers, just thinking on how things will affect them today, but not the future. Last year when we were figuring out Christmas, I was supposed to have it, but I specifically told X that I wanted him to spend Christmas eve with the kids, thinking ahead to this year and knowing then I would have it this year! I don't think our WAS think like that: they just live in the moment maybe.
I think your compromise with S8 was a good one. You did allow him some logical consequences, and warned him they would be more next time. I think compromising with the holidays was a good one too, taking the high road and all that.
I think one thing is that both our WAS seem to think their way of parenting is the only preferred method, but I really think most kids do fine, as long as you're not too much on the extreme. You said what they taught in my discipline class in college (for education). You should strive to not be overly permissive or authoritarian, but somewhere in the middle of that. You should feel good about your parenting!
And your X loves to point fingers at you, but putting you in the middle with your S' and making you say no was not good parenting imo. She should have told your S5 no, it's your night to be with your dad. My D10 has activities with friends (like a chrismtas activity with her chorus friends today) but I told her, no it's your time with your dad, you need to spend time with your dad. And she knows that and is fine with that. I think that's def. an issue (on your long list) for the parenting coordinator that she needs to stop encouraging that behavior of S5. You did the right thing by sticking to the schedule, and your sons will respect you for that when they are older.
Karen, I thank you for the compliment. I really appreciate it.
I believe my xW, like so many of us, does not think that far ahead. Even though she likes to portray herself as this super-organized, put-together sort of person. The reality is that long term thinking for her is myopic because she is so focused on herself and not the big picture.
More to the point, she couldn't possibly be thinking about eternity, most especially, given her words and deeds.
I failed to mention some of the arguments xW tried to use on me when it came to me attempting to discipline S8 -- tactics you might especially take note of, Karen -- she played the Asperger's card on me, saying that S8 could not walk to school (like so many other of his schoolmates) because he's "Autistic".
When she said (wrote) that I was again taken back and wanted to respond to that point. But I let it pass because it was a cheeseless tunnel -- if she wants to continue to mischaracterize her own son with a blanket term that stereotypes him as a helpless invalid, when he most certainly is not, I don't know what I can really do to counteract that thinking. It makes me cringe, and it makes me feel so bad for S8 that his own mother sets his goals so low in her own mind.
Our son is taking exams this week to survey the possibility he might be gifted in one or more areas, especially math, and yet his mother seems to want to treat him like an incompetent infant. He hikes with me at least two or miles through the woods every other week, and yet he is too young to walk just once to his school about 8 tenths of a miles away.
It has had me thinking that all of these squabbles with xW over the care and raising of our S's would likely have led to our D anyway, even if she hadn't been unfaithful and cheated on me. But then I think at least half of the differences between us concerning our children stems from an unwillingness on her part to try to compromise or to respect my thoughts and feelings anymore -- and that in turn stems from her defiant unrepentance and chosen mindset as a home-wrecking adulterer and the subconscious guilt that is eating at her. Perhaps as a real, committed H & W we could have compromised more and been more satisfied with the results. IDK.
But maybe I am really just touching on a chicken and egg conundrum.
...
Well, I just got a response back from xW this morning. I gave her a couple of compromise counter-offers, and it looks like she's willing to go with one of them. This one would change the Christmas Eve custody exchange time from 6 PM to 9 PM, which is what I had wanted all along, but xW had originally objected. Now she sees the light -- only now.
I had a quiet weekend. Sans kids. Except for marching with S8 in the local Christmas Parade (as part of our cub scout pack) I didn't have the company of my S's.
On the way to the parade, S8 started a conversation with me -- another one of those conversations. He started out by saying, almost out of the blue, that I tend to say "bad things" about Mr. OM, but his mother never says anything bad about my friends.
I quickly assessed that this was another sudden veering into unhealthy conversational territory. I asked S8 to clarify -- did he mean "bad" or "negative"?
He said, "negative".
So I said, I am sorry, but yes, I do occasionally say negative things about OM. However, there's a whole world of difference between that, where there are very justified reason for how I view OM (that he is not a person that can be trusted or relied upon, and is certainly not a role model), and xW refraining from saying anything about my friends. First of all, his mother has absolutely no grounds on which to judge my group of friends, but the converse is certainly not true. I explained to S8 that I have a legitimate stance regarding someone like OM who had an active role in the dissolution of my M, the splitting of S8's parents and the destruction of his family. None of my friends, past of present, had even a remote role in harming our family.
I told S8 I was sorry if my views of his mother's "friend" seems unfair to him. He is still quite young and some day he is going to have to judge for himself the real character of OM, but for now he needs to understand that he doesn't have all the information.
I then asked him if this was something his mother has been talking to him about, and he quickly denied it.
I changed the subject off of this matter, but it has stuck with me. I am quite certain she has been again talking to him about my (mostly unvoiced, but otherwise understood) opposition to her inclusion of OM in everything they do now, what amounts to her attempts to foment a fatherly relationship between this stranger and my S's. As such she is still trying to paint me as a hateful person to them.
Hateful? No. Jealous for my S's? Most definitely. (My S's already have a father!)
But I cannot control what she says to our children, either directly or through insinuation. All I can do is to continue to talk to them, keep the lines of communication open, and to lead by example.
I just hope I can instill enough judgment, values and discernment in them that they can faithfully see things for themselves.
More crap from xW of late. She gave me the 3rd degree Tuesday night during my nightly call with my S's. I was explaining to S8 that I had been having some difficulty arranging for S5 to get his chief-most item on his Christmas wishlist --either from Santa or other sources. S8 started to get upset on his younger sibling's behalf and then xW butted in and started grilling me on the details. Why this and why that. After a very difficult day, I really didn't need her interferring in my convo with my S's.
So she promptly sent me a nasty gram via email (several before it was all done) upbraiding me for upsetting our oldest child. She included all the usual sharply worded diatribe about how horrible a person I am for failing my S's and then ruining her time with them by talking to S8 about it. I concede she has somewhat of a point, but otherwise it was her typical myopic rant, and as usual stimulated by her own ill will than anything else. Her so-called defense of our S's "interests" are nothing but a pretext for her getting her own digs into me.
(Incidentally, I have since managed to acquire the hard-to-find item that S5 had asked for.)
I don't know what to do sometimes. There just seems to be no winning with her around. She refuses to see that (1) S8 would have been just fine had she not also got on the line and raised her ire in front of him, and (2) that S8 has become waaaay to focused on the material aspects of Christmas -- so much so that he gets upset even if it looks like his little brother won't get his prime request -- and I feel like his attitude can most definitely be laid at her feet.
I am praying constantly now of days that, among other things, my S's can relax and have a joyous holiday this year without so much focus on gift-getting. I pray that I can somehow rectify their expectations and redirect their focus on what is most important at this time -- to take to heart the real reason for the holiday. This is the one gift for Christmas I want more than anything else -- even if I got nothing else I would count myself happy beyond belief.
wow nc, sorry for the amount of BS you have to deal with xW. Explain s8 that other than food and lodging everything else, including gifts, are optional, that you may choose not to buy stuff and that it is your decision, not his or his brother's, it's yours to make. There will be pouts and complaints, but stick to your guns. You didn't have to explain to your s8 anything, don't give him so much power... as for xW butting in, cut her off inmediately and dont' explain her anything either, say you'll call later and hang up.
BTDT hon, trust me, the less you explain/talk to her the better, she is too toxic, stick to the bare minimum and that's it.
Happy birthday!! I hope you have a lovely day.
kat
Yes, thanks, Cat,
I got my S's last evening (starting my week of custody) -- I have been talking with S8, letting him tell me what he's thinking about the holidays. I am trying to gently let him know that the focus should not be on what he is getting. I think he's okay with the my saying that we just don't know what Santa will bring this year, but I think he is also convinced that he and his brother are going to get everything on their list, that Santa is just bluffing when it comes to keeping a reign on the gifts this year.
It's going to take some time. It's an uphill battle, with my (as you so accurately put it) toxic former spouse, their mother, obliviously working against me. So be it.
I blame myself for helping set the precedent when we were M. I went all out and tried to spoil my family, but it was unwise. xW hasn't stopped, hasn't realized how materialism was such a huge contributing factor to ripping our family apart. SInce the bomb I've tried to turn over a new leaf.
Thanks, Kat,
I was born 47 years ago at what was once Forbes AFB, Kansas -- right there in your home turf.
Having the kids is a great birthday present...
Forbes is still. We have the National Guard out there and our own FOE airport. We were out there today looking for the dumb battery place so I got to see much more of it than normal. I think you mentioned that once before so yep I have an image of you whenever I head out there!
Hope you are having a wonderful day.
kat
I think if you do the right thing re: materialism the kids will figure that out. And respect you for that in time. I also think they'll figure out about the OM. I talked about it once with the kids, on my therapist's advice, just saying that normal marriages the spouses don't date other people. Then I dropped it for the last year or so, don't mention the OW at all. I know my s16 doesn't like her and I think is more aware of what kind of person she is. I think their AS maybe makes it a little more difficult for them to figure out stuff; they think everyone is good and sweet and kind, well most people are, but I think they are figuring out earlier than me that everyone isn't.
Thanks, all,
My B'day was good and quiet. And yes, Donna, having my kids was all the gift I needed.
We ended up not doing much. I asked the boys where they wanted to take me on my B'day, and they were not really interested in going out at all, no matter what I suggested -- even an amusement park. This tends to happen a lot now of days. xW seems to inundate them with outings and other activities all during her week, so much so they're ready to be home-bodies by the time my week comes around.
Still, I had no real set plans, no places to go, no work, no bills to pay, no projects -- so we three spent the afternoon sitting on the floor playing with Legos together. I actually had a great time -- we were all absorbed for hours building our own creations. (It's hard, as a single parent, to give oneself the opportunity to spend time doing "frivolous" things with your kids like that -- but it is definitely time well-wasted. LOL.)
We did go out to eat and I let the boys take me to a restaurant for a belated birthday meal after church the next day. That was very pleasant too.
Karen, I agree with you on the AS thing. My S8 is always giving strangers the benefit of doubt. But his nature, whether that is mostly due to his AS or not, I am not certain, is to argue the knees of a millipede if you let him. He is a stickler for what he considers right or fair -- he could easily be a L (heaven forbid!) And while I try to validate his having some notions that are more misguided, I will let him know that he needs to reconsider them all the same. In fact I am trying to encourage him to healthily challenge himself from time to time.
Not easy for someone with AS. (Not easy for someone neurotypical either.)
I too worry a bit about how D tends to make kids so jaded about life. My xW is snapping at me about making sure we both try to preserve our young children's belief in Santa Clause, to protect their innocence -- and yet she refuses to recognize how our failure to keep our M together, in particular her sabotage of our MR through lies, deceit and infidelity, has done so much to undermine their having normal childhoods.
We ended up not doing much. I asked the boys where they wanted to take me on my B'day, and they were not really interested in going out at all, no matter what I suggested -- even an amusement park. This tends to happen a lot now of days. xW seems to inundate them with outings and other activities all during her week, so much so they're ready to be home-bodies by the time my week comes around.
Brother NCB, happy belated b-day (from dday
)
This was so true with my boys. Xw wanted to just wow them away with going here and going there, doing this and doing that. At first, they expected me to do the same, and then finally were the same as yours. What I did was as I journaled in my thread. We would stay around the house, but do family things. Instead of go to lavish dinner out, we made a lavish dinner in, together. Everybody had a part. And we'd do the same, play video games and what not.
So it was a multiple fold approach, not only to save the budget, but to also GAL, I was learning things with them at the same time, and bonding. This in turn drove XW up the wall and I think was part of what finally broke her down. She saw, I can be that great dad that I had ceased to be for a bit of time while the M fell apart. And also that family time doing things together is far more important than how many thrill rides they can get on in one day, or how many plush resteraunts can be eaten at in a week.
<journaling>
S5 decided to stay with xW again after S8 and finished with cub scouts. It doesn't make me particularly happy when xW convinces him to do that. But I don't want to come off as being "mean" to my S, and I know xW tries to exploit that.
The next day I picked both S's up from the MIL. She (the wicked MIL) mentioned that S5 had a bad day at pre-K, but had no details to offer. So I told her I would check my email for a message from the teachers to find out what happened.
This morning -- as if out of the blue -- I got this nasty-gram via email from xW. She says this:
NCB
S8 continually tells me & Mom about all the things that make you angry. This tells us that he is experiencing an angry environment. I believe S5 is acting out because of this. PLEASE, try to keep your adult angst to yourself & not create bitter, angry kids.
Thank you,
xW
This floors me -- where the F did
that come from? I asked S8 about whether he has had any such conversation with his mother about me. He says he has not, but I get the feeling he's clamming up for her sake or something. So later I send her a response that basically tells her this:
I think you need to explain a bit more about what you and your mother are actually discussing with our children. Because I see two things that are really going on here. (1) You are prying S8 and S5 for information, and (2) you and your mother are continuing to plant your own negative biases in their minds and to try to get them to accept your prejudices.
Those would be the two chief-most reasons for any "anger" you might think I harbor, and thus easily justifiable if true. But more so than anything else it makes me utterly sad for them that their own mother would do something like that to them.
You continue to disrespect me as a parent and as a human being at every opportunity and you still want to try to pin the blame for S8 and S5's lack of respect for others solely on me?
If you want to open an honest dialog with me about areas you think I might need improvement on in the raising of these two boys, then I strongly suggest you try to approach me with a little respect and courtesy, otherwise I can't take you seriously.
So, basically I am telling her to can these attacks if she's serious about addressing any concerns for our S's. I think part of this lastest missive stems from xW's guilt that S5 acted up right after the very night during my week he just happens to stay with her instead.
Personally, I suspect the wicked MIL is continuing to foment the discord between us -- not that xW needs her help to do so.
Oh, and this morning the evil MIL handed me a note from S5's teacher (explaining his poor behavior that day) that she had held onto the afternoon before and had "forgotten" to give to me. I said nothing, bit my tongue, but I could have spit fire at that point, I was so furious at her. xW's mother is pilfering my kids' bags and purposely withholding important information from me.
You know there's a "special" place for people like her in the afterlife. God forgive me if I can't muster enough sympathy for her d*mnable hide anymore.
NCB,
Dude, honestly, I know you don't want to hear this, AGAIN, and I know you're journalizing here and venting, but seriously, you do have a very negative tone in your efforts and your response message is prime example of that. Be the bigger person NCB. If her only way to communicate now is with bitterness, shower your response with kindness.
So your response could have been "I'm terribly sorry, I did not realize my personal feelings were effecting our children. I will do my best to monitor my words and actions with them more closely from now on. Equally, I feel the same concern when they are with you and MIL and respectfully ask for the same".
I mean really, you two are just continually stoking the fire and making it hotter and hotter and just plain out uncomfrotable to not you only you two, but YOUR KIDS.
Lastly, I think I've mentioned this to you before, children of a D'd family will play both sides of the fence! I can't tell you how many times I had to suck up my pride and call up XW (with a tone as desribed above) to get to the bottm of some of there stories that needed to be verified and ended up being false.
You two may never be the best of friends again, but honestly, this crazy sh!t between you needs to cool out. So, as said, be the bigger person/parent and change up your tone. I'm certain the results and rewards of doing so shall make up for taking the bullet.
[edit]
And I KNOW I'VE said before, some issues you bring up here that you discuss with your S's is in my opinion inappropriate.
I can't remember if i said Happy Birthday to you or not... But Happy Birthday and Im sorry if I hadn't said it before on fb.
It seems that your exw continually tries to rope you into an argument with her, so she can in some way use it against you in the future. Her hang up still seems to be to make you out to be the one with the issues at the same time justifying her actions as responsible ones ~ even though she is the one who has had the affair and continues to be unreasonable beyond belief when it comes to the boys.
I won't tell you that your answer to her was wrong, because its exactly what i would have written. In a perfect world what DDay is saying is nice.. but we are dealing with emotions and certainly this is not the first time your ex has made accusations that aren't true. It fustrating and downright BS when this happens with her time and time again. Playing the role of making nice doesn't work with her.
Hang in there my friend.
Dylan,
You certainly have a point and your advice would be the policy to which I would offer anyone else. However, you need to know that I've already been down that path. For the first year of our separation. I DB'ed the h*ll out of xW and tried to validate all the complaints and rants she lodged against me -- including some insane stuff that I look back upon now that makes me want to cringe.
Where did that get me? D'ed.
The problem in our M is that she had absolutley zero respect for me as either a H, a father or as a human being. She was and has all along been practicing a scorched-earth policy to totally obliterate any possiblity we might ever get along. It has been methodical and unrelenting since weeks before the bomb. Any effort I took to restore her confidence in me as a person and to achieve even a meager level of conciliatory respect for one another has been met with utter derision and hostility. The most positive response I have ever gotten out of her is a pooh-pooh sort of refrain, "Too bad it's just too little too late."
My ex has some severe emotional problems. That much is now plain for me to see. She has decided that she has to scape-goat me in order for her to be able to be happy. And she has continually displayed extreme anger and frustration with me simply because I will no longer fall on my sword for her.
So, yes, in an ideal situation or even in a normal situation one can hope to win one's ex over with kindness even in the face of their hostility. But in our case, I have learned that anything I do becomes fodder for her hostility -- and turning the other cheek just breeds even more contempt and disrespect from her. Her mother is the same exact screwed up way.
But is there anything I can do to help alleviate the pain my S's are undoubtedly suffering in this insane situation? That's what I keep asking myself. At this point I have settled on my current approach, for better or worse. Given her bent, I would prefer we never talk to each other except for the strict business of raising our S's. NC. Unless it deals directly with our S's, then nothing else.
But she will launch these attacks from time to time it would seem. I think part of it is her own angst, her own guilt and insecurities eating at her; part of it is a pretense to playing the goodly, "better" parent. And part of it I suspect is to establish a paper trail in hopes she can use this some day in a court of law -- I don't trust her one whit on this one, not any longer. She's already proven to be dangerously mercurial on that score.
I am learning to ignore her. Some things she spews I still feel compelled to not let stand unchallenged. But I am learning.
She's a completely different animal than what you're used to, Dylan. (What still haunts me -- and likely always will -- is that I did indeed love her with all my heart in spite of how she really was.)
As for discussions with my S's, well, I can say without reservation that it's quite a bit different when your oldest has Asperger's. S5 is oblivious to such concerns, mostly due to his age and being neurotypical. But S8, being AS, will indeed spout things quite spontaneously -- and he will suddenly latch onto subject matter that requires a huge amount of patience to extricate the both of us from. And I will not ever lie to my S's -- ever. I will try to withhold inappropriate information where I can, but S8 is completely no-nonsense regarding lies and obfuscations. It disturbs him greatly if he ever finds out something is different from what he's been told.
Shielding your children is a dual-edged sword. Sooner or later, one way or another, a parent is just going to get cut.
Thanks, Irish,
I think you did send wishes, maybe on the alt.
Thanks for understanding.
You are right. "Nice" just does not work with xW -- and has in the past lead her to heighten her hostilities against me.
I do not at all relish the thought of these battles persisting forever. Just when I think things have settled down some, she does something else to shake things up again. I like to think I am learning to resist being fully involved in her obvious desires for conflagration. But it seems it will take a lot longer time than I expect to finally cycle out of this pattern. I pray one day she finally gets the picture that I am not ever going to abandon my children to her and that she decides to desist once and for all from these follies.
I have had to resign myself to the distinct possibility she will never give it up. My job then is to minimize the impact to me and our S's.
Well, all I'm saying is that some way somehow there has to be a better way to communicate. As hostile as my XW got sometimes, I did my best to shield the kids. It's bad enough that their family is torn up, but to see or know of all the constant hostilities is just sadning.
Ultimately I'd just tell her, look this isn't an attempt to get us together or anything, we just need to be better with one another for our s's sake.
But apparently for your sitch, NC might just be the best route, all this hostility just isn't healthy for anyone.
I understand about S8, as I've said, my S12 has similar issues, and it took some time to get it through to him, but we finally developed a system.
NCB - I understand where you are coming from, I have dealt with some of the same crap when it comes to dealing with the X. I have decided to treat everything in a business-like manner. No personal attacks, no trying to tell him how to behave, nothing personal at all. When she makes these attacks your response could be very direct, "Please be more specific regarding what the children say regarding anger, thank you." (Not "my anger" just "anger.") Never ask her for input regarding your relationship with the kids, that will be perceived by her as being power over you! Don't give her ammunition!!!
NC, I do understand how you're feeling. I do try to always do business-like, polite, detached communications to X and just about the kids. I have to say the nasty-grams continue now just as they did for the past few years though. I think it's hard for people to understand, b/c if you have a normal person and you treat them politely, they don't treat you with constant anger and contempt. These aren't normal people, but I believe have some mental issues. So what's the answer, I don't know. I like Dday's suggested email, but personally I wouldn't put anything admitting to possible wrongdoing in print to her. I think any email I send could show up in a court of law, and am always aware of that.
I do think we need some kind of book like DBing with crazy people or something like that....
NC, I do think you shouldn't say anything more negative about your XW and OM or ask them questions. Believe me, I know how hard that can be with dealing with such a person. But best for your kids. I think they already know your feelings anyway. I mean you can't do anything about your MIL, just your own actions and focus on those.
I have a mind to have a special talk with S8, to lay it all out for him once and for all. It would summarize everything I've been saying to him piecemeal for many months now. Something like:
S8, S5, I have already expressed to you that I disprove of OM as a person being thrust into your lives. You already know pretty much what I think about him. I don't won't to elaborate those points yet again, but I will if you think you need to hear it once more.
Your mother continues to try to involve this person in your lives, which is another thing I greatly disprove of. But while it is very unwise of her to involve you two in what should be her private relationship, it is still her prerogative to do so -- so long as no direct harm comes to either of you as a result.
Given that this puts me and your mother at an empasse, I think it best that you and I refrain from ever discussing your mother's boyfriend or their relationship. Unless there is something illegal or otherwise damaging to either of you, I don't need to hear anything about it.
So, S8 -- I am mostly talking to you here -- unless something serious is going on that I really need to know about as your father -- and we can briefly discuss what some of those might be, if you think necessary -- you need to just put Mr. OM completely out of your mind when you are with me. We will not discuss him and you will cease telling me of his exploits. They are totally irrelevant to you and to me. If you do mention him, I will ask you once if it is necessary, and if I deem it is not, we will drop the subject. Got it?
Likewise, if I ever mention him, then you can remind me of the same. There are a ton of other, much nicer things for us to talk about.
And the same should be true for when you are with your mommy -- she doesn't need to know any of the details about the people I associate with as well. As long as they are not a threat to you or your brother, it is likewise none of her business. Right?
Right.
Now, in all likelihood this lesson and policy will stick in S8's easily-distracted brain for all of a day before he slips up and breaks it.
Don't do it. It is pointless. You have no control over who X brings into their lives, and putting your sons into a position where they will feel as if they are betraying you will only make things harder for them.
NC,
I don't believe you should have the conversation with S8 either. Remember he is a child. Kids are easily distraced. If he brings something up about the OM and XW, change the subject to boy scouts or something else much more pleasant to talk about.
Believe me, I know how you feel when you hear the OM's name. My jaw clenches and I have to bite my tongue not to say something rude. I have to remember no matter how I feel about their dad, he is their dad and they have every right to love him. It's not their fault he chose to betray me. Why should they have to hear my frustrations?
Ummm, when did Harvard open a grade school?
This is the perfect example of what NOT to discuss with your kids man, seriously. If you take this approach, not only will it just sink in for a day (and your 5 year old is going to have no idea what the F you're talking about anyway) I certainly hope you are ready for the fall out.
That little presidential address to the union of a 5 and 8 year old there is a prime example of how to paint the other parent the bad guy, an A NUMER ONE NO-NO and will do more damage than good and potentially turn them against YOU for defimating their own mother! Yeah, there's a point in it's own, she may be your ex-wife BUT: She is still their mother
NCB, if you really feel inclined to say something, keep it simple (read as on a kid level, not doctorate), just as I did to mine where the listening ears were 10 and 11(really about 7): "hey guys, dad can't control what what happens and who is around at Mom's place. Unless you feel you've been hurt or wronged in some way, dad doesn't really want to talk about it, ok? Let go get some ice cream!" Done!
Okay, brevity is the soul of wit (and reason) -- I get that, point taken.
Realistically, the most the conversation would entail would
likely be, "S8, we're just not going to ever discuss Mr. OM again. Okay? Let's not go there." Much as it's ever been.
And yes, a 2x4 might be called for, but I'm not sure where the zeal to bust my chops is coming from here. If the advice is to tell me to simply clam up around my own kids, fine. No need to take my head off.
But I am starting to second-guess some of this "common wisdom" I hear. Perhaps someone might care to explain for me exactly how they think this is supposed to work. Seriously, help me with this. Explain for me the rationale of how one parent clamming up and continually avoiding the subject about the elephant that's standing there in the room with them would somehow help my kids learn how to deal with pachyderms. Especially when that same elephant has no intention of also practicing discretion. Denying them their questions -- and S8 always, always has questions -- only leads to frustration and distrust on their part.
Tell me how to thread that Gordian knot.
And Dylan, paradoxically I find myself constantly defending xW as their mother. When bedtime rolls around and their mother still hasn't called them to say goodnight -- especially on one of her OM date nights -- I have to try to distract them or to cover for her. I always encourage them to love and respect her, as their mother.
You needn't say anything more to them then I've already said, you can't control what happens and who is there, only she can.
I understand your concern and desire to protect your children from a parasitic slime ball the size of an elephant, I was there too. And I drove myself nuts. Finally, I got smacked upside the head with the very same advice I am giving you right now and everybody's life life got a ton better.
let me put it to you this way. You didn't put that elephant in the room. Let the one WHO DID handle that. And stand your ground if she balks on a answer for them, reittirate, you can't control what happens or who is there, end of discussion.
That by no means is clamming up. It is an omission to deal with a circumstance you did not create. And they in turn will continually then go to the one who did create it.
My kids turned out just fine doing exactly that. And they knew soon enough on their own to not even bring anything up.
As for the paradox. Again, what can YOU do about it. Nothing. If they are upset and want to know why mom hasn't called them, simply "I'm not sure, maybe she's busy (if you feel inclined throw in the notion that they can call her), but it's not your job to make excuses for her to them. In their own time the longer it continues, they will not bother to ask, they will not bother to get wonder, they will know on their own.
Sorry man, but when you posted that up as this what you're going to say, I freaked the hell out. You've been wound up waaaaay to tight over the OM issue for far, far, too long. Let it go.
I am without my S's this weekend -- don't get them back until late Christmas Eve.
I went to our bible study group / dinner party last night. We did something different by all of us bringing our own recipe(s) for various Christmas cookies. We all got to together in the kitchen preparing and baking and conversing. It was a good time.
I was supposed to go to another Christmas party this evening but got caught up in too many errands today, including having lunch with a couple of friends visiting from out of town and finishing up their own Christmas shopping. I hadn't seen them in a long time. But now I'm too pooped to go out again.
I am now a bit angry and hurt having gotten off the phone with my two S's this evening, just a few minutes ago. I had tried to call them earlier several times but no one answered. They finally called me back from xW's cell phone about 45 minutes later. They were on the road with their mother headed over to the OM's place to (and I quote) "camp out inside Mr. OM's house."
The operative word here is "inside". So xW is now taking my S's for a sleep-over
inside OM's home. WHen they supposedly camped outdoors they were pushing the envelope. Now xW is brazenly violating our parenting agreement by sleeping under the same roof with another man with our children right there in her custody. I am beside myself right now.
It wouldn't have been so bad but the purpose of my call, as always, was to talk to my S's about their day and to wish them a good night, however they called me back and the first thing out of S8's mouth were words of cover-up and excuse for what was about to transpire this evening. I could hear xW in the background not only interfering with my conversation with our S's but coaching and correcting him in what to say. The whole call was a sham and I feel like I can no longer have a decent conversation with my kids when she is trying to put the big chill on what they can say.
I feel now like I am losing my S's to her immorality. I fear that by the time they understand the depths of the damage that she is inflicting on their fragile moral compasses, it will be too late. And the fact that she has them trying to cover for her and they're going along with it just disenheartens me absolutely.
I could raise this with my L, but all that will get me is another hourly charge. Sad to say, in our so-called justice system, a complaint by a father just does not have the impact as it does for a mother. A father just does not command the same respect as a mother does in a court of law. My complaint is likely to fall on deaf ears. But if I don't defend my position and at least
say something against this violation of our agreement, then it becomes tantamount to consenting to it.
I am tempted to drive all the way over there and get my kids out of that situation, but again the law won't ever back me on that one.
This is wrong. Just damnably wrong. And the World doesn't give a crap.
I never, ever in my darkest nightmares would have thought my former W capable of ever doing something so Godless and heinous, not her.
I want to say I'm sorry; I haven't been through that at least not yet, but that's gotta be the hardest thing to go through. I have some of the same worries about you with the kids being damaged by their dad's actions, but I have to believe everything will be ok. They do have good role models, and I also have a lot of great friends and I think my kids learn from them too.
Do you meet with the parenting coordinator soon? Sounds like you really need to!! I know you had a couple of other serious issues, and this is one to add to the top of the list. Then I think you need to pray (I pray for my X every day), and then let it go as much as you can and leave it in God's hands.
Hi, Karen, I appreciate your thoughts on this. They're in line with how I have been feeling.
I had a conversation with some of my DC friends this weekend and I mentioned this infraction to them, seeking their advice. Their responses pretty much covered all the mixed emotions I have been struggling with.
In the end, I have decided to notify the parenting coordinator (PC) in writing about this new development, but to fully expect nothing significant to come of it -- instead I will move onward knowing that I have at least documented this with a court-appointed official.
The key thing is I have to realize (again) these things my ex does are beyond my capacity to affect -- and that I must put her and her hangups in God's hands. My problem is that I have continued to forget to let go and let God -- and that tenet needs to be ingrained in my whole being. I think I am getting there.
The other thing I have to do, and this has been coming out more and more through everyone I talk to and every action I see and in things I am noticing in general, is to restart moving on with my life, to re-begin the GAL efforts I had been progressing so well upon prior to the D and the custody battle that followed this Summer. I believe there is a time to move on down the road of life and a time to seek cover and entrench. The Summer of 2009 and much of this year was a time that I found I needed to hunker down and weather the storms. But it is now well past time that I move on down the road, to take this journey forward again.
None of this is going to be easy, mind you. But then no one ever said it would be. For one thing, I'm still dealing with the financial aftermath of the legal battles, and I have a long row to hoe to get me out of that debt. It will be tough, but I am determined to begin to enjoy the path I am on, as there is no other.
I fully expect my ex to continue to try to make my life miserable. I will let her make her repeated attempts and learn to ignore her completely. She is now a closed chapter in the book of my life and I need to concentrate on penning the next exciting chapter of NCB.
The other thing I have to do, and this has been coming out more and more through everyone I talk to and every action I see and in things I am noticing in general, is to restart moving on with my life, to re-begin the GAL efforts I had been progressing so well upon prior to the D and the custody battle that followed this Summer. I believe there is a time to move on down the road of life and a time to seek cover and entrench. The Summer of 2009 and much of this year was a time that I found I needed to hunker down and weather the storms. But it is now well past time that I move on down the road, to take this journey forward again.
That's the ticket!
As to the violations of the parenting agreement, in mine, the first step in comflict resulution is to notify the other parent in writing of a complaint and they in turn are supposed to reply accordingly. If the matter is not resolved that way, then it returns to court. My (x)W learned I wasn't messing around with that. $.02
((((nc)))) You sound better today. Im glad, I was getting worried about you.
Im glad that you are trying to get past all of this mess. Its not going to be easy, but you are strong and you will even stronger down the road.
Vent away whenever you need to... with no judgements on my part, only to lend a ear and too help as best I can.
Take care nc..
tal
On the way to cub scouts last night I mentioned to S8 how I appreciated that he, S5 and his mother managed to make it to church the previous day. S8 replied that they had actually left Mr. OM's house in plenty of time, at "ten o'clock", to make it to church.
I replied, "Oh, you left at 10 PM last night? You didn't stay the night at Mr. OM's place after all?"
S8 clarified, "No, we did stay overnight. We just left at 10 AM in the morning to make it to church on time."
So that confirmed again that they had an overnight under the same roof, against our legal agreement. Thus I knew what my next step had to be -- to contact the Parenting Coordinator (PC).
I had to talk via phone with the PC (I don't know why he doesn't just give out his email!) He heard my concerns and seemed somewhat sympathetic to my position, especially since ex is in violation with the court at this point.
He suggested that I send a letter to ex and state for her my official objection to her violation of our agreement and tell her that I had talked to him (the PC) and he had suggested that I contact her myself to communicate my position.
I had already been thinking along these lines, but didn't know if I wanted to lodge this with her first before contacting the PC or vice versa. Now I am glad I talked to the PC first.
Time to write that letter of complaint.
After that? Well, I can expect xW to get pretty nasty and respond with a lot of false accusations. She'll likely start talking again about taking me to court to rest any custody rights away from me altogether. Stuff she's threatened before.
But I'm no longer going to let it bother me or sway me. She can bankrupt the both of us further through legal proceedings, but whatever -- she's flighty enough to do so anyway even without my lifting a finger.
No, I will take it one day at a time. I'm going to just enjoy my time with my S's and ignore their toxic mother.
It's funny -- I can find the time to spend true Christian compassion for just about anyone anywhere anytime now of days. But for my ex and her cohorts, I simply won't waste my time any more. They're in God's hands, totally and completely where I am concerned.
It's going to make my threads here all the more sedate, but so be it. I may rant about something from time to time, just to vent and get it out of my system, but I hope eventually to really be as indifferent to xW and her nonsense as she likes to make me out to be.
To that end, I have been thinking about when to shut down this thread and start a new one -- in keeping with the moderators' wishes that we self-manage thread length. Does anyone have any suggestions for good thread titles?
You need to pick your battles carefully. The kids have already met and stayed over with OM. It sounds like the kids are ok with it. Why fight it anymore? What do you have to gain but more indifference between your XW and yourself. And it does seem that more legal fees will be incured.
I understand your moral stance on this and if you want to continue to battle on this part it is your choice.
On the way to cub scouts last night I mentioned to S8 how I appreciated that he, S5 and his mother managed to make it to church the previous day. S8 replied that they had actually left Mr. OM's house in plenty of time, at "ten o'clock", to make it to church.
I replied, "Oh, you left at 10 PM last night? You didn't stay the night at Mr. OM's place after all?"
S8 clarified, "No, we did stay overnight. We just left at 10 AM in the morning to make it to church on time."
Nocodes - did it feel good putting your son in that position? You set him up for than answer. Shame on you. I was eight when my parents split and I knew when my dad was playing me for ammunition. Luckliy my mother rose above all that nonsense and I now appreciate the hurts she must have gone through in order to maintain the peace in my and my sister's lives. Kids hear more than you think and they draw their own conclusions even if they don't say anything. They also don't want to be disloyal to either parent.
You are too good to do this to your sons. You are going to make them suffer for their mother's sins. Whatever she has done she always will be their mom.
I know what my dad did. I know what he was, and can still be like. I know who the 'grown up' and caring person in their M was. Doesn't a good old bible story with a baby and 'two' mothers come to mind?
In no way do I condone what your W is doing and I would want to commit murder in your shoes, BUT there are more important things at stake here than your W and showing her what she can and can't get away with. You will end up making your son's frightened to say anything to you and they will learn to be quiet or filter the truth in order to keep the peace. Unless you think that OM is physically/mentally harming your son's I would really advise caution at this juncture.
Unfortunately your W knows just which buttons to push with you and she seems to be an excessively unkind woman.
As an aside, I was once told that utter indifference was the most hurtful reaction one person can give another - rather than rising to the bait perhaps you could try that at this juncture and leave the big guns for a time when you may need to pull out something bigger. I don't think your ex would like to think you were indifferent to her - she may no longer want you as her H but she still enjoys whipping you; don't give her that satisfaction.
I don't mean to seem uncaring......I just wanted you to know that this grown up 8yr old remembers which of her parents took the high ground - and it paid off.
Great advice Saffie! My parents too got divorced (mother had an affair) and my father had to let go of his personal feelings when it came to my brother and myself visiting our mother and OM (our future step-dad). From my perspective, it was a very peaceful divorce, even though I knew full well the hurt my father had placed on him by our mother.
Here are the 12 worst parenting mistakes that divorcing or divorced parents can make:
1. Leaning on your child for support during this time of pain in your life is unhealthy and inappropriate. Children can not help their parents through the adult task of mourning the loss of a marriage! And loyalty issues will leave a child feeling guilty for siding against a parent or possibly disproportionately angry at a parent for leaving him with this burden. This is the time to lean on family and friends so you are strong enough to allow your child to lean on you.
2. You should never speak badly about your ex to or in front of the children. Although it may be difficult, it is not healthy for the children to take on your adult issues, even if they directly relate to the child. As a common example, a parent should not share with a child whether or not the other parent is paying child support, how much child support or when the child support doesn't come in no matter how tempting it may be. Because your child shares flesh and bone with your ex, any criticism of your ex will also feel like a criticism of the child and will erode his or her self esteem. This is never healthy and is certainly not productive.
3. Treating your child like a buddy and relating to him or her as a peer is a common change that occurs after some divorces. While it may be tempting to commiserate with your child since you have both lost something important in your lives, your losses are different. Your child is not a mini-adult!
4. Mothers of sons and fathers of daughters should be particularly careful that they do not put their oldest child into the position of "replacement spouse", "man of the house", "woman of the house", etc. Children need to feel like children and feel the security of knowing their parent can and will take care of all adult responsibilities.
5. Spoiling your child in order to divert his grief or pain is not a healthy way of dealing with his pain or yours. If you are the parent who has moved away from your child, you may have an even larger temptation to fight off since your time together will be so limited now. It feels important to make that time memorable to your child and what child doesn't love new toys? But more than toys, a child needs to feel stable and safe. This can be obtained through parenting "as usual", despite the changing life around you all. No child wants a toy to replace a parent.
6. Transferring your hostile feelings about the divorce or your ex onto your child is unhealthy, at best. Many children already feel like divorce is their fault when, of course, it never is. Although your child shares blood and genes with your ex, whom you may resent and despise, the child did not choose for any of this to happen.
7. Never discuss parenting time, custody or child support issues in front of the kids. This means no discussions during routine transfers of the children from one home to the other. It means no cell phone conversations with your children sitting in the back seating listening in. It means waiting until they go to bed or are out of the area before making phone calls to discuss adult issues. You probably felt it was important not to argue in front of your children when you were still married with your ex. This is just as important now that you are divorced! Even if you can discuss issues civilly, children should not be privy to them. It is far too common for children to overhear these discussions and feel as if they are the cause of the issue or they are a burden to one parent or the other. Children do not like to feel like a business transaction!
8. Alienating a child from the other parent is an all-too-common, often subconscious tactic that parents may use during or after a divorce. Alienating is a form of brainwashing where one repeatedly insists, to the child, that facts and feelings exist between the other parent and the child until the child begins to agree, whether true or not. When alienated long enough, children may resist any bond with the other parent and that parent may, out of frustration and hopelessness, sever ties with the child. This is the worst no-no any divorcing parent can commit and it has a name: Parental Alienation Syndrome.
9. Putting your child in the middle is one of the most common divorce no-no's. Asking your child questions about the other parent or time spent with the other parent, or asking your child to relay questions and information between parents are all harmful methods of putting the child in the middle. Parents should always communicate all issues privately between themselves and any questions or concerns about the other parent's home or situation should be directed at the parent, not the child.
10. Never put your child in the position of choosing. Most states have statues that require a child to be almost an adult before being capable of choosing where they want to live. Some states never allow the child this choice. This is because a child has natural healthy loyalty toward both parents. Being asked to make any choice between parents - whether the choice is who has custody or whose house the child wants to spend Christmas at - puts the child in the awkward position of shifting their loyalty away from one parent in favor of the other. This can leave them feeling guilty, resentful, angry and sad.
11. Don't make your child's special occasion an opportunity to focus on your marital resentment or hostility. Let your child's birthdays, holidays, school performances, dance recitals and sports events all be opportunities to focus on your child and how proud you are of your child. This is not the time to discuss parenting time issues, child support issues or to berate each other or ex-relatives. If you question your ability to be polite or civil, consider taking turns at special events or limiting your attendance. Often times, though, events will be large enough for parents to both attend at opposite ends of the room, leaving the child to interact freely with both sides of the family without fear of disruption or drama.
12. Although going through a divorce can make a parent feel emotionally needy, this should not be shared with your child through action or word. A child who feels a parent's neediness too much will begin feeling guilty or fearful of leaving the parent when it is time to spend time with the other parent. In some situations, children can feel so guilty that they no longer feel good about leaving the parent at all, even to go to school or to play at a friend's house. This is a huge burden to cast on a child.
Kerry, How about the OM ("Old Man" Ed in your case) if he claims that your kids are his too? How would you respond? If you speak badly of him to your kids are you hurting them?
If I were to speak badly about Ed around the kids, I do believe that I would be hurting them. They would also get a sense from me that I hold resentment and I would rather demonstrate that it is better to move forward and not focus on the past. They love him, but they also know full well that I am their real father. It was a giant leap to put some faith in the old guy, but it is working out well so far. I do know that he was estranged from some of his own sons (who I think are older than my XW) but that he has redeemed himself in his later years. But I also am not buddies with him as he is a dishonorable wife stealer.
I needn't add anything to what the others have re-itterated what I've already said. But once again, this keeps up, in time it's going to do serious damage to the relationship between you and your sons.
Like Saffie, I am the produst of D'd dysfunctional family. Do the extreme cirumstances, I have dis-communicated myelf with BOTH of them. It was hard enough only one, but now both.
Perhaps it's time I take a break from all of this.
I am not really understanding where all this vehemence is coming from -- or why the full lumber yard of 2x4's are being leveled at my head when a "word to the wise" would have been enough.
It is especially confusing when I look at what real harm is going on with my S's and that never elicits such a response. I am asking myself if these are really just knee-jerk responses because so many of you are COD's (children of divorce). Could you be projecting your own particular hurts on me and my children? Am I suddenly the whipping boy for disgruntled COD's? I don't understand this sore lack of even-handedness. Why the pile-on even from folks who rarely if ever comment on anything else in my life, let alone offer words of support and encouragement? Seriously, I'd like to know.
Or are my own priorities and perspectives out of whack? Is there something more harmful in my attempt to find out from my S about how his other parent is treating him than not to? You all say that if there is no real harm being done to my S's then I should butt out, right? Well, how would I ever know if something harmful is happening to my children if I don't inquire? I am not interrogating my kids or any sort, but practicing as much discretion as I can without being totally in the dark about their condition. But are you seriously going to tell me that children will voluntarily offer up the information, even in the best of parental relationships? Can you guarantee that? And some of you have stridently told me to curtail allowing my kids to even broach such subjects as well, so even there I would be cutting myself out of even being a haven for my S's. You really think that is sound parenting?
Again, maybe I don't have my head on straight, because I am not following the set of priorities that I see being outlined here. Too many contradictions. And too many emotions.
I think I need a bit more than anecdotal experience to fully accept your arguments. Someone really needs to make a much better case, because I am now starting to doubt the very suppositions (including those in Kerry's long hijack) upon which you're telling me I have erred, where I might have accepted your points without question before.
But again, maybe it's time I sit out of this for a while, because it's becoming antiproductive.
No one is projecting.
We are all noticing that you are conciously or subconciously trying to tell you son's how they should feel towards their own mother. Parental alienation - pure and simple.
Here is your post that you say is a summary of the message you have been trying convince them of...
S8, S5, I have already expressed to you that I disprove of OM as a person being thrust into your lives. You already know pretty much what I think about him. I don't won't to elaborate those points yet again, but I will if you think you need to hear it once more.
Your mother continues to try to involve this person in your lives, which is another thing I greatly disprove of. But while it is very unwise of her to involve you two in what should be her private relationship, it is still her prerogative to do so -- so long as no direct harm comes to either of you as a result.
Given that this puts me and your mother at an empasse, I think it best that you and I refrain from ever discussing your mother's boyfriend or their relationship. Unless there is something illegal or otherwise damaging to either of you, I don't need to hear anything about it.
So, S8 -- I am mostly talking to you here -- unless something serious is going on that I really need to know about as your father -- and we can briefly discuss what some of those might be, if you think necessary -- you need to just put Mr. OM completely out of your mind when you are with me. We will not discuss him and you will cease telling me of his exploits. They are totally irrelevant to you and to me. If you do mention him, I will ask you once if it is necessary, and if I deem it is not, we will drop the subject. Got it?
Likewise, if I ever mention him, then you can remind me of the same. There are a ton of other, much nicer things for us to talk about.
And the same should be true for when you are with your mommy -- she doesn't need to know any of the details about the people I associate with as well. As long as they are not a threat to you or your brother, it is likewise none of her business. Right?
Right.
Anyone here that reads that, whether they are a COD or not, is going to swing some dimensional lumber at you.
Go right ahead and attack the messengers, but we will still tell you that you need to take your focus off your XW's relationshp with her children and move forward.
Express, but dont defend your feelings.
Here is your post that you say is a summary of the message you have been trying convince them of..
Go back and read the context of that
proposed line of conversation I posted here before I attempted to open a dialog with S's upon. Which I then dropped.
Those have indeed been my thoughts regarding the frequently recurring mentionings by S8 and S5 about their mother's boyfriend. But I have not directly conveyed any of that to them except to tell S8 over and over and over again that I do not want to discuss those things and to move onto other more pleasant subject matter. I am certain that xW is constantly pushing OM into their faces, injecting him in every conversation and forcing them into contact with him at every opportunity, as there is no other rationale why OM is part of nearly every thought and reflection they make on any subject now. My ex is waging a campaign to ingrain her A partner into every aspect of our children's lives. Don't tell me about parental alienation!
Instead, my actual reaction has been to let my S's finish their sentence and then to try to steer us all to other conversation topics -- the text above that you refer to was a trial balloon to float a possible approach in hopes of curtailing any further such conversations --
as they have become more and more painful to me.
I am doing a very exemplary job, if I don't say so myself, in a difficult situation in keeping a reign on my emotions, as it is, given the continual psychological warfare xW and her mother are waging to sway my S's to their value system -- which includes excluding their father from their lives. Maybe my reactions are not wise at times, as it is often a no-win situation whichever route I take. But for someone to tell me I am guilty of the very thing I have been fighting against is simply offensive to me.
I invite you to go back through my various threads to get an accurate understanding of what I am dealing with here.
I invite you to go back through my various threads to get an accurate understanding of what I am dealing with here.
I have no need, I was where you are now. I understand your frustations, but the simple matter of the truth is unless OM, your XW's or ex-MIL's actions or conduct is endangering them, why continue to drive yourself to the mad house?
NC,
When I didn't like something I would make sure my parents knew. I felt safe talking to them.......mainly because early on my mother ensured that happened by not letting information we gave out be used to escalate matters between herself and my father. My father used to say things like " One day I will tell you something so awful about your mother you will hate her". Now that was a terrible thing to say to an 8yr old. Instead of getting angry at my dad when she found out he had said this, my mom sat down and told my sister and I what the thing was. It was something that was awful for my mother.....and she must have felt shamed admitting it to us. But she diffused the situation by taking the wind out my dad's sails by telling us. And you know what, it back fired on my dad, (and has done so many times over the years), because it made us love her more. That she had lived through what he threatened her about telling us, and carried on was fantastic. All we knew was that we loved our mom and our dad had tried to alter that fact by trying to turn us against her. We still continued to love him but it did make us think twice about what we told him.
Also, at different times my parents became involved with other people. How involved at the time I didn't know really as I viewed it from a child's perspective. However, I would say that the demise of both R's was caused by the fact that, however hard these other folks tried to become part of our family unit, my sister and I weren't ready to include them, and we felt safe to say so. It would be along the lines of us saying " ? isn't coming with us to the park are they?" or something similar, followed by some face pulling.
I actually am someone who believes I was much better off after my parents split. It was such a relief to live in a house where there wasn't constant conflict and shouting and you weren't scared of saying the wrong thing and causing a storm. My mom made me understand I could come home and tell her anything and she would be there for me. I knew it would go no further. There must have been times when I said things about my dad that she could have used as ammunition against him, but in order to keep the connection between father and children on an even keel my mother bit her tongue.
You know, over here we don't litigate half as much as you guys.....and way back when my folks split my mom couldn't have afforded to take my dad to court. In order to keep her children safe she walked away with £5 in her purse and the clothes on our backs, just knowing that she had a new job waiting for her and a house for us to live in. She never asked him for a penny. He never offered her anything and she has never gotten any sort of financial settlement from him.
However hard it was for both of them to hold things back when it was all raw and new, in the early years, they still managed on the whole,( my mom being better at it than my dad), to do it.....or at least it seemed that way to my sister and I. I greatly appreciate that. Now they live across the road from one another and interact daily.
So I wouldn't say that I was projecting my own hurts at all. I would say that I am projecting my thanks to my parents, and in particular my mother. They acted like the parents and not like bickering children. I believe that a happy, safe, well rounded child would let you know if something was wrong without you having to question them. The first signs would be changes in the child's behaviour.
I do think at the moment you are setting your boys up for a fall with this current line of action and all I wanted you to do was think again. I am not trying to give you a 2x4, but your reaction to other posters makes me think that deep down you feel that the balance isn't right also.
People aren't posting to you about this because they want to be awkward or unkind - they are concerned for you and your R with your sons. I don't post much these days as you know NC, but I do come on and try and keep up with those I consider 'friends' on these boards, and it is with the hand of friendship that I say these things to you. I am sorry if they are not what you want to hear.
Unfortunately I think your W knows how to play you too well and you may just be walking in to an ambush here.
Or are my own priorities and perspectives out of whack? Is there something more harmful in my attempt to find out from my S about how his other parent is treating him than not to?
Just because your W rejected you does not mean she would be treating your boys badly.
Well, how would I ever know if something harmful is happening to my children if I don't inquire?
You observe them and look for signs that they are unsettled or unhappy. Questioning them just feels wrong to me on many fronts. It's highlighting to them that YOU think there may be something wrong....so in turn that unsettles them. It's making them tell tales because you are intending to use what they say against their mother.
One can't
guarantee anything, and i'm not a betting person, but if I were, I would bet that the route you are thinking of taking will cause much more harm than good; not only to your sons but to you too.
Your W seems to be doing this to try and get a rise out of you and she is getting just what she wantS. I would be questioning just why she is doing that and observing, rather than just jumping in.
Again, maybe I don't have my head on straight, because I am not following the set of priorities that I see being outlined here. Too many contradictions. And too many emotions
Seems to me that most of the posters are being fairly consistent in warnng you to hold back and not be so reactive, and it is you that is being driven by emotion as one would expect, as this is your family that you feel is under threat.
I don't think the posts are being antiproductive, I think you are just fed up with people not agreeing with you - that should tell you something. At the end of the day though, you have to do what you believe you need to do. They are your sons and we do not walk in your shoes.
Whatever you decide (((((NC))))))). Split parenting isn't easy.
Here's something I learned in the parenting class I had to take to get the D....
The kids KNOW that they are a part of each parent. Anything that you say to diminish the other parent is going to be taken by the kids to diminish them. Sometimes you just have to be the bigger person. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but we have to put the kids ahead of ourselves.
NC, I am sorry that you are going through this. My ex went and moved in with his Affair partner/GF(whatever you want to call her) back in July. They became engaged I believe near the end of October. Every other weekend my girls go to their Dad's. The boys are really old enough to decide though ex disagrees.
Anyway, the point is this: I can't control my ex or what happens when my girls are out of town at his home. I am more spiritiual than religious and perhaps that is why it pains me more that he lives with his affair partner versus someone that he didn't cheat with.
I try to teach my kids how to be the best people they can be. I don't want them ever to be afraid to tell me something even if it is something I don't want to hear. As parents I believe we are here to give them unconditional love and support.
Your ex is burning bridges but hopes by getting your dander up, you will do the job for her. She wants you to look like the bad guy. So don't fall for it. Teach your kids by example how to be a good person. Let go of your ex and her life...it isn't yours to worry about anymore.
(((((NC)))))
hugs, kat
I have no need, I was where you are now.
Dylan,
I'm gong to say the same thing to you that you told everyone else when they urged you to caution in your own sitch -- my situation and the breakup of my MR and my family is
nothing like your situation.
For several months before the bomb (if not years), and thus long before I was aware my then W revealed her utter contempt for me, she was carrying on an A with her coworker and making plans to not only divorce me, but to take away my S's and every single possession we owned, and to totally replace me as H and father in my own family with the OM. Moreover, she was at the same time, long before the bomb, secretly preparing and conditioning my S's to the idea of having a new father and a new blended family. All under my nose.
And since the bomb, my now xW has done absolutlely nothing but try to railraod me into accepting her plan to eliminate me first from her life, but also to elminate me from my family's life. There has never been one iota of remorse or contrition on her part, no admission of regret, nothing -- just the oppsosite, she has sought to malign me before family, friends, neighbors, teachers and caregivers for our children -- through outright lies and character assassination. She has taken us both to court and nearly bankrupted us both in her continual bid to remove me as our S's father. She insisted on liquidating the home we bought for our family in a sour housing market.
At no point has she expressed any degree of regret for the harm she has caused our family, let alone to me personally.
Can you honestly tell me that your ex at any point treated you with such unwarranted hatred? Do I need to spell out any more differences?
Saffie,
I really appreciate where you're coming from, and I will take your words under advisement. But I think you have jumped to the same conclusions that some of the others have by assuming that my asking my S's questions about what goes on when they are with their mother means I am trying to turn them against her. That is not my aim. I know full well that for me to do so, even if I happened to want to (which I don't), would surely backfire.
My sons need their mother as much as their father. I understand this a lot better than you give me credit for.
However, there is this matter of the cohabitation violation. It is a definite part of our legal order, which we both signed before the judge. The judge in our case approved and signed the order as well. It is legally binding -- ironically more so than the M contract we had, sad-to-say. I cannot in good conscious allow her to continue to skirt the agreement she demanded we have drawn up between us. To do so would be wrong and not in my interests or my S's.
Furthermore, I had that clause included in our agreement, with the full blessing of my L -- and defended it from alteration -- for the purpose of protecting my children from their mother's indiscretions. (And knowing full well it binds me as well.) I know the harm that can come to children's psychological, emotional and moral development when their parent fails to hide their philandering ways from them.
Are you thinking that defending my position and standing firm on this and other principles will cause more harm than good? I can assure you I am doing my part to compartmentalize the legal and moral dispute I have with my S's mother from the way I interact with and parent them. They know nothing of the custody suit that their mother filed against me except that the status quo was maintained. (Excepting of course what details xW has been telling them.)
Or should I do nothing? Just let her do what she wants with them even if it is in blatant violation of our agreement and exposes our S's to a whole lot more serious hurt down the road? Abrogate my responsibilities and my moral convictions as their parent and go off like so many fathers who decide to ignore their own children after a D?
I will consider your words. Honestly, I will. But I feel like I am forced to choose between the lesser of evils here.
Kat,
I want my kids to understand right from wrong. Maybe I am being too "hands on" with them when xW is much too laissez faire on the moral issues. For example, after chastising me for hardly ever taking our kids to church on my own when we were still M (mostly because I didn't really enjoy going without her, imagine that), she now espouses a very cavalier attitude about participation in a church community and raising them with an appreciation for the body of Christ. Prior to our R, we used to be on opposite sides of the fence, and now we're 180 degrees out of phase with our pre-M stances.
I know I am in danger of doing her dirty work for her. And I appreciate the warning. I have to balance that against failing to take proper action when it is really required. And I have no choice but to respond to her violating our agreement, even if it is to merely voice it to her. Which I did today in a brief note to xW (no reply as yet).
NC
But I think you have jumped to the same conclusions that some of the others have by assuming that my asking my S's questions about what goes on when they are with their mother means I am trying to turn them against her. That is not my aim. I know full well that for me to do so, even if I happened to want to (which I don't), would surely backfire.
Nope, I in no way assume you are trying to turn your boys against their mom. I think you are a much better person than that and would never think so lowly of you. However, I think you may under estimate your sons' perception of your questions and I think they will see a connection between the answers they give and future actions taken. I also think that your W probably uses any information she can glean from your sons, ( I have an extremely LOW opinion of her), and I wouldn't put it past her to ask your son's about questions you may have asked them. In that way I feel they become unwitting pawns. I also think your W may plant ideas and information in your sons' heads in order to enflame you.
My sons need their mother as much as their father. I understand this a lot better than you give me credit for.
I am sorry you don't think I credit you with that - that was never the intention I meant to give.
However, there is this matter of the cohabitation violation. It is a definite part of our legal order, which we both signed before the judge. The judge in our case approved and signed the order as well. It is legally binding -- ironically more so than the M contract we had, sad-to-say. I cannot in good conscious allow her to continue to skirt the agreement she demanded we have drawn up between us. To do so would be wrong and not in my interests or my S's.
Furthermore, I had that clause included in our agreement, with the full blessing of my L -- and defended it from alteration -- for the purpose of protecting my children from their mother's indiscretions. (And knowing full well it binds me as well.) I know the harm that can come to children's psychological, emotional and moral development when their parent fails to hide their philandering ways from them.
Litigate all you want - doesn't stop hurt and emotional damage. You may have the legal rights on your side - but at what cost do you excercise them?
Are you thinking that defending my position and standing firm on this and other principles will cause more harm than good? I can assure you I am doing my part to compartmentalize the legal and moral dispute I have with my S's mother from the way I interact with and parent them. They know nothing of the custody suit that their mother filed against me except that the status quo was maintained. (Excepting of course what details xW has been telling them.)
Yes to the first sentence in the above paragraph. YOU may be able to compartmentalise things but your W doesn't and she will just get more and more vindictive and she will drags you sons into this. She will bad mouth you. I have no doubt more bad than good will come of pursuing this.
Abrogate my responsibilities and my moral convictions as their parent and go off like so many fathers who decide to ignore their own children after a D?
I don't for one second think you would ever ignore your children. However, by being too rigid you may cause them harm. I can see this escalating into them ending up infront of a judge being asked to make a choice between their parents - now that would be downright heartbreaking.
NC - I know you are hurting. I would be too. Your shoulders are wider than your sons though, and whatever you say, this will filter back to them.
I believe you are a father that is so in tune with his sons that you would notice changes in their behaviour if there was a major threat to them here. The moral damage has already been done by your W. You can't unring a bell. Don't make it worse - don't make your W want to poison those boys against you any more than she may already have done. I think your W is playing you like a fiddle and she wants to make you dance to the Devil's tune.
NC, I think it funny sometimes we are so critical of ourselves here, when our WAS are the poorest role models ever. But, I do think that means we need to be even better role models as a consequence; more loving, more forgiving, etc.
I think there is nothing wrong if your S is talking non-stop about the OM changing the subject, and if he continues, then ask him directly to talk about something else. I do that, and I feel fine about that. You are entitled to setting boundaries with your children like that imo. The rest, instead of telling them about the right behavior in life, you need to show them with your actions. I think that's a core DB principle, right?
Hope you don't feel attacked. I think we all here do care about your and your S's so hope you understand the spirit at least. I'll try to post again, but if not, Merry Christmas to you and your S'!!!!!
Litigate all you want - doesn't stop hurt and emotional damage. You may have the legal rights on your side - but at what cost do you excercise them?
Agreed. But it is not my intent for this to lead to litigation. The fact is that neither of us is any longer in any financial position to be able to jump back into court. My aim is to hopefully deter xW from these actions -- which I know is quite unlikely given her past behavior -- but more-so to begin to establish a body of documentation should for some reason she force us back into court anyway. What I may choose to do is one thing, but she has already been proven capable of letting the lawsuits to fly on the most spurious of reasonings.
And I know she tries to plant ideas in my head to try to goad me into doing what she wants, even to paint me as the bad guy. I have seen that. But then there are some actions to which I cannot afford
not to act upon. Sometimes
not acting has greater consequences.
Remember, Saffie, the discussion we had a long time ago about xW's talk about wanting to commit suicide when she was facing being M'ed to me? Do you recall how you belittled her talk as hollow threats to coerce me to do things her way? I had a friend suggest the possibility, knowing about my severe depression at the time of the bomb, that xW was trying to plant the notion of suicide in my own head. Hoping I might take the hint.
Cynical as H*ll, I know -- still, at this point, I can no longer rule that one out. But I'd rather not think about that too much.
Don't make it worse - don't make your W want to poison those boys against you any more than she may already have done.
No, you're right. But I don't have to do anything myself. She is going to do that anyway no matter what I say or do. And if she doesn't her mother will do it for her.
Thanks, Karen.
If I don't talk to you again before then, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Sounds like your XW is a narcisstic sociopathic jerk. I think FaithIsBelieving must have married your XW's sister as his STBXW has similar behavior. They have no problem telling lies to get what they want at all costs.
There are some books that might be of help in dealing with her over the coming years:
Divorce Poison: Protecting the Parent-Child Bond from a Vindictive ExJoint Custody with a Jerk: Raising a Child with an Uncooperative ExIf there is one saving grace, I have witnessed a friend and my brother, both with son's who eventually would not put up with their crazy mother's when they got into their teens. Both of them got full custody later on because of their XW's inability to control their anger towards their son's.
Thanks, Kerry,
I can appreciate some constructive advice. The book recommendations are good -- I've seen both of these in the bookstore and perused them. I have found the first one in my local library system and placed a request for it.
To all, I know I have to be conscious that I too don't become that toxic parent I see in my ex. I want -- no, need -- to detach from her drama especially around my two S's, for all our sakes. But I am still obligated to stand ready and to be prepared to defend my position when and where necessary. It's just going to be a struggle and a balancing act.
Right now I just want to get through the holidays.
BTW, I got a response from xW this evening. As expected, she denied that the overnight constituted a violation of the cohabitation clause of the consent order. Just her typical moral relativism again. She actually made some lame excuse that it was no different than if they had all stayed in a hotel somewhere -- as if that's any more allowable.
Whatever. I've calmly stated my position on this one incident and there's nothing more for me to say about it. I'm not responding to anymore talk from her on this matter.
I tried to get my x to sign a similar clause about not allowing non-related, opposite-sex overnights. He balked; said he would just hurry up and marry her. They moved in together into a house he had co-signed by his sister within 4 months of the divorce being final.
Good luck with it, NCB. It is a fine line we walk...
Can you honestly tell me that your ex at any point treated you with such unwarranted hatred? Do I need to spell out any more differences?
I'm not going to get into a pissing for distance competition with you over whose worse off, but...........
Ummm, yeah, I DID LOSE EVERYTHING!
I lost my home,
I lost my worldly possessions
I lost my kids
All the while, yes, Xw planned her malicious affair to be the new life her and my kids, REMEMBER, she moved out, IMMEDIATELY with OM AND OUR KIDS. She stole my kids away repeatedly, then made false accusations to gain full temporary custody for months!!!!!!!
I DID NOT SEE NOR TALK TO MY KIDS FOR OVER 2 MONTHS!!!And all the while, my role as father was replaced by OM ON A DAILY BASIS!!!! 24/7, 7 days a week!!!!!!So you want to tell me I have NO idea what you're going through?????
I'm out of this. I only tried to give you advice of what to do to not drive yourself crazy like I did. But you don't want it, that is fine.
Peace and Happy Holidays
dday out [with a blood prssure reading like no other]
It sounds like both of you guys each have your own very bad experiences with your former mates. I'm sorry. Kinda like being eaten by a coyote and crapped off a cliff!
Greek has a signature line that say's "be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle"...or something to that effect. I believe it to be true.
Merry Christmas guys...I hope it's as good as it can be for you.
Kinda like being eaten by a coyote and crapped off a cliff!
My 2 cats (Donny and Marie) got eaten by coyote's the summer before last but I was not able to verify the cliff aspect.
Kinda like being eaten by a coyote and crapped off a cliff!
My 2 cats (Donny and Marie) got eaten by coyote's the summer before last but I was not able to verify the cliff aspect.
Whoa, didn't see that one coming.
Dylan,
I am sorry, but I'm going to suggest you take it down a notch -- and this is for your sake. Let me explain: the less alike our situations are to each other, the better off you are.
Yes, we can point out some circumstantial similarities between our families and our spouses and our ordeals, but I honestly believe that's where they need to end -- or else you're facing a serious world of hurt coming your way in your own sitch. The more alike they are the more trouble you would likely be in for.
My ex has emphatically told me her love for me ended a long time ago. She has said ILYBIANILWY once during the bomb -- since then it has been pure "I don't love you" and more "I abhor you". On this, she has not relaxed one micron. Furthermore, my ex has some serious deep-seated emotional and psychological problems that have always tainted her R's with men. Through IC and a lot of reflection, I have come to the conclusion that she has problems that I cannot overcome, nor would be able to overcome even if she hadn't gotten herself involved with OM -- and certainly not without her cooperation.
As such, my M was DB-proof. My xW is completely DB-proof, and any approach to her, whether using DB or not, always yielded more and more negative results. Anything I said or or did, or did not say or do, was greeted the same way -- as more fuel for her to end our M.
The very fact that you are seeing any sign of positive fruit with your ex should tell you just how utterly different our situations really are from each other. And for your sake, I'd count that as a good thing.
If my ex were to suddenly say she wanted to not only mend the bridges but be willing to try to fully reconcile, first, I'd have to recover myself from floor due to the utter shock, and then I'd have to decline. In my case, my ex has proven to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that the person she had previously wanted me to believe in - the one with kindness, moral values and integrity -- is totally gone (if she ever really existed at all). These last two years she has managed to finally convince me that the faith and trust I had always placed in her was now totally misguided -- she has and always will operate out of her own self interest and will sacrifice me and anyone else to get what she perceives as "happiness". (And then try to convince herself and others she acts only for other people's benefit and not her own.)
So, her hypothetical return to me would undoubtedly be driven by her perceived well-being and not for me or my kids. Now that I've seen behind the mask, I know her enough now to conclude that she will go to her grave before ever admitting (let alone rectifying) her mistakes with me, especially to me. I wish to God Almighty I was wrong on that.
I really hope and pray your ex is the total opposite of my xW.
Hello, everyone,
xW dropped the boys off a couple of hours early. Caught me a bit off-guard, as I had assumed I was going down there to pick them up. I had given her until 9 PM for the changeover, but she suddenly seems to have changed her mind. But I'm not complaining since I got to spend more time with my S's before bedtime. We even had time to watch The Polar Express on DVD, a little tradition of ours now, before putting them to bed.
I sit here now taking a breather and content that my family is safe at home. And I want to take a moment to thank everyone here in the DB forums. I've been blessed to discover a lot of good friends just in these last two (and a half) years since the S, not the least of which our my DB forum compatriots.
So, it is with heartfelt appreciation (even for the 2x4's) that I wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and may God bless us all.
Merry Christmas to you too! Bless you and yours.
kat
Merry Christmas to you and your boys too. I think He continues to bless us, with great friends at the very least!!!
Thought I'd relate something that struck me last evening. I was watching a show with the boys after a very nice dinner. Something one of the characters was saying about loving someone forever brought back my reaction to what xW had said just the other day.
I have already mentioned that xW had sent a response to my email letting her know my official disproval of her violation of our legal agreement. What I hadn't elaborated on is that not only did she deny and belittle my objection, she took the opportunity to tell me that I need to get used to the fact that OM would be in their lives "forever". (her exact word).
Well, that gave me a bit of cynical chuckle at the time. But I forgot about it until last evening while watching that show with my S's. And suddenly I recalled that email and started chuckling to myself --
I just couldn't help it.
S8 and S5 stopped and looked at me and got very curious why I was having this reaction. S8 asked me what it was that was so funny. I had to tell him it was nothing and never mind. He started to insist I spill the beans but fortunately the show we were watching got his attention again, and they both forgot about it. I couldn't help but continue to smile a bit longer.
Forever. She's used that phrase before, but if I have learned anything, there is no such word or concept for xW.
Forever... well her forever and our forever hold totally two different meanings.
Fortunately, for us, ours is sincere,while hers is a joke.
Hope the boys got lots of Star Wars stuff!! Im sure they did!!
Thanks, Irish,
Yes, Santa contributed greatly to George Lucas' wealth this year. And the LEGO corporation is making a mint of of us as well -- I should invest in their stock offerings!
It has been a very enjoyable Christmas for S8 and S5 this year.
On "Forever", I had the thought to add a snarky response to xW, saying "So that amounts to 5 years with good behavior, right?"
I want to start a new thread with the new year.
Any ideas about a title for a new thread? Anyone? I've got a couple of ideas, but was wondering where to go with this.
I had the boys all week long. Lots of Lego building. Celebrated birthday of S8 becoming S9. Had a lot of good one-on-one time with my kids. But then all good things... must come to an end.
xW showed up an hour early to pick up the kids for the custody exchange. I thought I was taking them down to her instead. I guess I was wrong. Again, wasn't expecting that. She seems to delight in taking control of the situation. (Too bad she couldn't place so much initiative in our MR.)
She managed to really p'ss me off by bringing a couple huge boxes so as to be able to cart away all the gifts I had given the boys for Christmas and birthdays. Always does this. And yes, I (and Santa) gave these toys to my S's, so they are pretty much theirs to do with as they want, but somehow she always manages to keep them from ever returning in one piece. If I object, then she starts to portray me as some selfish monster, right in front of them. This has become such a sore spot with me that I feel resentful -- I feel discouraged from ever giving my S's toys or clothing in the first place, as they continually leave here to never return (or at the very least not in one piece or entirety.)
Here it is -- the start of a new year. And yet she is already trying to get under my skin.
It still hurts very much, but I'm letting it all go. It's not worth it.
Oh, xW also brought back something that technically belonged to me (or at least I had at least some claim to) when we lived in our house. It was the huge subwoofer to our theater system. I looked at it and at her and asked her why she was suddenly giving this back to me -- it's been over two years and I have since had to buy my own replacement. She gave me this look as if I was being an idiot and asked me was she supposed to just throw it away then, since I no longer need it.
In the end I took this one stray component back from xW, all the while shaking my head in utter disbelief, wondering why she thought now to bring this odd item back to me. There are a whole slew of other things that were in her possession that I never got back, including some very practical and useful items that she denied me, most explicitly. I figure this speaker was a token offer of some some garbage item in appeasement to me -- in exchange for her convincing the boys to take all of their new toys I gave them back to her place. I don't know.
I mentioned this just to shed some light on xW's oddities and disjointed thought patterns.
---
I haven't spoken with my brother in a while now. It's been close to a month now. But I know he's dealing with the dissolution of his own M. I could have bet on it, but I found out that his W, my SIL, is seeing another guy now. I could have laid bets that was what her motives were/are really all about. Early on, right before their Sep and into the early part of that, she kept trying to convince me that her chief reason for splitting from my brother was because of their increasing religious differences (my brother, much as I love him, has become agnostic and anti-religious.) But while I humored her, I wasn't buying -- I have heard such platitudes before from folks wanting to find any sort of justification, however spurious, for ending their M's.
Anyway, my brother's W has now quietly unfriended me in FB -- I figure it must have taken place some time this week, as that was when I heard she started coming out publicly talking about her relationship with this other man. At the same time I guess she's decided that she's going to cut me and the rest of her IL's, my family, out of her life after all -- despite all the many many assurances otherwise that she gave us when she and my brother first started their Sep. In the end, she's just like all the other self-serving wayward spouses.
It sucks so bad to have yet another WAW in our family. Such betrayal and deceit. How can people live with themselves like that?
I really feel bad for my brother. But then he is not fighting this whatsoever. I really hate to say it but he is being an utter fool. He is losing not only his wife, but he is most certainly risking the respect of his children, especially by trying all too hard to keep the peace. He's so ultra-typical the "middle child", never wanting to rock the boat -- would rather flee than fight for what is right.
I guess that's where he and I are so different. While I am far from a violent person, I will take a stand on things I know to be right against things I know to be wrong. As such, I feel I am am more confident I would retain any measure of love and respect from my kids more successfully than my poor brother with his non-confrontational approach. What I can't figure out is how he got to be such a wimp. It's just not like the scrappy little kid I grew up with. M'ed life has certainly tamed him.
---
Well, here I am ranting again. Sheesh.
I hate starting the new year off this way. I really hope things start turning out for the better, as I am quite tired of all this drama. But when I don't hear from or deal with xW or anyone like her, I find I can honestly enjoy my time with my S's.
Happy New Year NC! I hope 2010 brings wonderful things to you, my friend.
Okay, folks, it's now 2010 and it's time to shut this thread down. I've opened a new one:
Things That Matter So please jump on over there once you've caught up here.
See you there.