Where are the HUGS and KISSES???

The postives are what keep me going. Like last night, H and S14 were in the sunroom watching a movie and I was watching tv in the livingroom. H went to make them a snack, but first came to see if I would like one also.

Since I have been out of school for the past 3 weeks, I have also noticed that H rarely leaves the house without at least making some comment about where he is going or that he is leaving. Until the bomb, I don't think either of us ever left without giving the other one the courtesy of telling that we were at least headed out. Awhile back I commented to H that I felt like he was slinky out of the house like he didn't want to be caught; now he lets me or the kids know. (Somehow I need to work to my advantage that H is usually receptive when I let him know what is bothering me. But at the same time I don't want to be a nag or to let him know just how little I trust him).

H has been working like a madman trying to get projects finished up around the house. Normally that would be a good thing, but the only time H has ever finished anything around one of our many homes was when we were getting ready to move. Last summer H was finishing the ceiling in D21 room and she plain asked him if he was getting ready to sell the house since that was the only time he ever finished anything. Even then, I noticed H gave one of his famous noncommital answers. It was not too long after that that H said he had a list of projects he wanted to finish since he wanted to leave the house in good shape for me when he leaves. (That was about the time he had D papers drawn up....which thankfully, I have not seen yet).

So now, finishing those projects kind of has me nervous. In addition, H has has been kind of tense around me the last couple of days, but nothing to major.

One thing I have going for me is H's commitment to S14 (although not the 3 girls). The kids give us a common bond and that is what is helping to hold things together for now.

Patience! Patience! (But 28 months of this is enough to drive anyone batty!!

)

Wishing

Hey WTH, new to piecing but thought I would drop by and say hey. While reading over some of your past posts I thought of the articles they have posted on the main index (down towards the bottom). In many of the articles it states that 85% of people who stuck it out for at least 5 years were very happy when re-interviewed..sounds like you are almost there. Just some food for thought!

I know it gave me some hope for the future.

Take care,

TO

Hi Wishing,

I know where you're coming from about H finishing those tasks, but try not to get too stressed. My H did the same thing after he asked tenant to leave our rental apt so he could move into it. He told me he wanted to use the money he would normally contribute to his IRA to renovate apt. He spent the next three months coming up with things to do over there and changed his mind a million times. Replace cabinets, don't replace; Repaint, doesn't need painting; New bath vanity; New toilet; Sofabed purchase; New carpeting even though existing was only 1 yr old; New Kitchen floor. The apt was empty for 3 mos while he kept coming up with other things. I was totally stressed all the time this was going on, waiting for him to let me know the actual date he was leaving. Finally, it reached the point where there really wasn't anything left to do, it's only an efficiency apt. At that point I really stressed out thinking he has to make a decision, he can't leave it empty for another month without a good reason. And I think he was also stressed at the idea he couldn't put off the decision any longer.

Bottom line is that he's still here. Fate intervened and a friend called looking for an apt for the summer, the day after the carpet was installed, the last thing that he could do to it. I guess what I'm saying is back then with all his talk about furnishing the apt, and fixing it up, I was afraid I was a complete fool for thinking he might not leave.

From the outside, it sounds as if he may also be stalling by working on all of these projects. It may also be a control thing. I think my H got enormous satisfaction out of doing the apt stuff completely on his own, because he thinks I make all the decisions about the interior of house. I couldn't believe how excited he seemed to be about changing the apt. I think it was more about controlling his own space. This from a man who seemed totally uninterested when I would try to get input about doing anything in the house. It actually kind of pissed me off.

So, can you come up with any additional things that need to be taken care of. Maybe ask if he could fix some other things and see what the reaction is. He may be glad for the excuse to stay around, but unwilling to admit it even to himself. You might even suggest a new project, something that doesn't need fixing but that you have always wanted to change. Heck, if you have to, start breaking things for him to fix.

My H seemed to all of sudden find things he needed to take care of at the house about that same time he got into the apt - stuff I never saw as needed at the time. I think in his mind he was trying to do his fair share.

In4Ride

TO,
5 years???!!! For some reason I just started laughing when I read that. I am just trying to get by one day at a time, but 5 years!! However, it is reassuring to know that those that have the ultimate patience can come out this not only in one piece, but happy as well.

In4Ride....Our house is 90 years old so there is always something to fix. I even have a list on the fridge of things that need to get done. H saw that list awhile ago and asked what it was, and I told him it was stuff I felt needed to be done around the house. H is an all around fixer-upper and can do about anything with the house and cars. So far H has ignored the list of things that NEED to be done, and creates his own projects.

It has not been a good day. H barely acknowledged my "good morning" before he left. H came home for lunch and it was just him and I. If I would ask a question H would answer as briefly as possible, but other than that would not talk, then kind of slinked out of the house to head back to work. So much for any form of communication.

I had to go to his office to water my plants and asked if he was busy. He very sarcastically said something to the effect that "no, he just goes to the office to goof off". I said "That's what I thought". H then said he was busy and asked "why". I told him I know my timing is always off but that "I didn't get married to be celebate, that I was having a hard time with celebacy and that we had to figure out what we were going to do about it". Then I walked out and left.

I NEED some reaction from H. I NEED some progress one way or the other. Limbo land stinks.

I am not sure what to expect from H when he gets home, but I just felt an overwhelming desire to stir the pot a little. Fingers crossed that the pot doesn't boil over tonight.

Wishing

Well, you threw that ball right back in his court. Do you suppose he got the message? I hope so. I feel for you, and wish I could put something on the screen that would fix it. I'll be thinking of you.... It's okay to ask for what you want and what you need. You deserve it.

Hi Wishing,

I know your feeling. For a man, without intimacy in a M is more difficult. I don't know what is in your H's mind. It seems to be similar to my W.

My W thinks also it is OK for her to live like two roommate in a house. Just share the work around the house. She does not want to do anything more to improve our M.

Before I left, I told my W that M for convenience will not work. My W seems to be quite upset about it. Can see in her face. She also started look at apartments again (searching internet sites). I am very tired with what she did. Wanted to move out, cancelled it. Many times. A friend couple who has separated for 4 years and back again mentioned to me (the W who left), that she finally realised after she left and lived alone that her H is not as bad as she thought, compared to male friends she has dated. But she came to realization only after their kids developed behavioral problems. If I am not worried about my kids, I really want to ask my W to leave.

Your H is improving. I think the main problem is that he may not be able to forgive himself. By not being intimate with you, he may be punishing himself, and may feel he is not worthy to deserve you. That is what I thought about my W. Last Sun, when she went to church nearly (not the one I go normally), I asked her whether I could come along. She said OK. But in the church, she is uncomfortable to sit near me. It is like I have a disease. She also did not take the communion. I think she is still struggling with herself. I haven't told her about I have booked conselling session for our S next week. She may feel guiltier if she knows. Why can't she let go the past and look at the future. I feel that human is imperfect. Every body made mistakes. It is no use to dwell on the past. We can learn from past mistakes. Important is to look into the future.

I really hope also that your H can let go the past and work on your future. Let us pray for our WASs.

Raindeer

Thanks Kelli....now, how are YOU doing???

I was real nervous about H coming home last night since I had told him at his office that I was tird of celibacy in our M. I was even more nervous since he didn't show up for supper at his usual time. I then called the office and told him we were getting ready to eat and asked if he would be home. H said he was juggling calls and it would be at least 20 minutes before he could get home. I told him I could put supper on hold til 7 and he seemed pleased that I would do that. And, H was home by 7 to eat.

H came home in a good mood, the tension that I had felt building for the last few days was gone. We ate supper, H helped clean up, I was putzing around the house, then H asked if I had any plans for the evening, and wanted to know if I and S14 would like to go to Cabela's to look for stuff they needed for their week long canoe trip. I had no plans so we headed out there. We had a pleasant couple of hours.

But, no comments or actions on my frustration over this forced celibacy. However, I KNOW that when I bring up issues that H hears me, and then, in his own way, tries to relieve my frustration. I am not sure what to expect.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I wish I know what our WAS is thinking. But I don't know what advice I can give you on intimacy matter.

Yesterday I came home. The kids were very happy to see me. My W did not say anything. I just act as if and did not react. I bought a music DVD for her, sport pants for S and 3 DVDs for D. This time I bought myself also an expensive Swiss watch. I have never spoiled myself like that before. I can afford it and no need to ask from anybody permission. My W and I used to have agreement about to discuss first before spending more than $1K. She did not ask me now. I don't need to ask her also. We live like two roommates.

Wed I will see my S's C for the first time. I hope she can help my S.

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

I think your H's response is a good sign. He sounds as if he's tentatively moving towards you. If he were not interested at all, the celibacy comment would have sent him running in the other direction. Is he trying to tell you he needs to take it reeeaaall slowly? You know he might be very insecure and/or nervous after all this time.

I think it's very interesting that he came home in a good mood after that comment, especially when he was obviously in a bad mood before that. Could the intimacy thing be a control issue for him?

I certainly know where you're coming from, it's been more than 8 mos celibate for me and not very often before that either. My H seems perfectly content to go on like this forever. I just try to avoid thinking about it because like you, that one issue tends to really depress me and piss me off. My friends keep asking how long I'm going to put up with it. Who knows!

In4Ride

Hi! Raindeer and In4Ride!!

I really am not understanding the whole celibacy issue. for 2 years after the bomb we still had regular sex, but for the last 4 months there has been nothing. My thinking though is that H knows "touch" is my LL, and by not touching me in any way he is then not giving me any hope. So, in one aspect it seems like a cotrol issue.

I honestly thought that I would get some reaction out of H with the celibacy comment, but that was on Thurs. and he and S14 left Sunday for a week long canoe trip, and there was nothing from H. Although I must admit that H seemed less tense than normal.

H, S14 and I went shopping Fri. night for more canoe stuff H had a special discount for a 2 days. I had told H that there was a pair of shorts that I wanted there and found them first thing. After looking for a couple of hours for H's stuff, we went to check out, and I thought it was very thoughtful that H asked to make sure I still had the shorts I wanted.

On Sunday, H went to the office and got home just in time to jump in the pickup to head for the canoe trip. H did have to run in the house to grab a couple of things and was just like the H I used to know; very excited but yet still wanting to make sure things were OK for me for the week.

On his way downstairs, he stopped on the landing and looked up at me with a quizzical look on his face. He commented that I had mentioned going away for a couple of weeks while he was gone. It took me a moment to figure out what he was talking about. (It finally dawned on me that I had told son a couple of months ago that I might be gone for a week or so....but I had never mentioned it to H.) I told H I had cancelled my plans a couple of days ago and left it at that. When we got downstairs I told H that I had kind of planned on taking a class for a couple of weeks but didn't feel that I had the time now. H sure looked relieved at that explanation!

I just have this gut feeling that H is on the verge of making a commitment. And when he does, he will be firm with that commitment and go full throttle in carrying it out. Now, if I just had a clue as to whether that will be a commitment to the M or to a D, I would be in much better shape.

Wishing

I think he's deciding to stick around, and make a commitment to his family. I saw some of that with my H, when he decided to turn around. Keep it up, including dropping a 2x4 every now and then. I really think if he had wanted a commitment to a D, he would have done it when he had the paperwork in hand.

HI Wishing,

I believe your H is making effort to work on your M. I know it is slow. It is very frustrating. But I think your H is worth a wait.

I have asked my W to make decision between me and the om last nite. I can't stand anymore and decided to end the current situation. I will accept whatever is the outcome.

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

Don't let that feeling he's about to make some kind of decision make you start asking questions. IMO, this is the time to really take the pressure off and let him feel comfortable. I agree with others that he is working toward the M. Maybe your celibacy comment reassured him that you still want him after all that's happened? Sounds to me as if he wanted to linger a little with you before his trip, and he's been thinking about what you might be doing while he's gone.

I think now it's more important than ever for you to act happy about life in general and optimistic about the M (without any R talks).

We're both afraid to hope but it's the only way to go. I have even felt a subtle 'shift change' with my H in the past week, but like you, I'm afraid it may be my imagination. H is being really considerate and seems to be going out of his way to be thoughtful. Just little things but they're the type of things that seemed to be a huge burden to him during the MLC anger stage.

It's hard to see the progress from where you are, but to an outside observer it looks good.

In4Ride

Thanks for the encouragement that you all think H is planning on sticking around for awhile.

H has been working like a mad-man the last few weeks to finish up an addition to our deck that he started last summer (and finished it last Sat.) H told me last Sept. that he had had D papers drawn up in July but hadn't served them yet because he was trying to fix the house up so I would have a nice place to live. I then asked him why he started on a project like the deck since we already had a nice one. H said that it was something he thought I would like....and then wanted me to confirm that I liked it....which, of course, I did. (Even though I could care less about it and it is not at all like I would have built if I had been asked

) So, the deck being finished and H seeming almost possessed to finish has me on edge a little.

H and S14 left last Sun. on their canoe trip and it has been such an unbelievably relaxing week for me. I wasn't worried about where H was or who he was with and I had NO expectations for phone calls since they were not close to a phone and there was no way to recharge H's cell.

However, S14 DID call me twice this week. Son would not have thought to call so I know H suggested he call his mom. At the end of both conversations with S14 he asked me if I wanted to talk to H and I said only if H wanted to talk to me about something. Both times S14 then asked H if H wanted to talk to me, and he did. Conversations were not terribly long but they were nice.

My eggshell free week comes to an end tomorrow, but this has been a nice break.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

Your comment about an eggshell-free week reminded me that when I stopped worrying about tiptoeing around, things seemed to get better. What I mean is, that I stopped taking responsibility for his bad or distant moods and if he was having one, I just went about my business as if it had nothing to do with me. If it lasted more than a few minutes, I just removed myself to another part of the house or left altogether. I think the point got across to H that if he had a problem it was up to him to do something (I wasn't even in the room so how could it be my fault?).

I think in the old days we had some weird dynamic going where he would get into a bad mood and keep it up until I was in a bad mood also. Then he would be fine and I would not be. Or I would ask him what was the matter and somehow the problem seemed to become my fault.

I say forget about the eggshells sometimes. As long as you're not doing anything that a reasonable person would object to, I say break 'em and let him worry about it. My H seemed to snap out of it better when I did that instead of worrying myself. A lot of times I didn't even acknowledge that H was in a bad mood, just acted as if everything in my world was great, see ya.

Don't know if this helps or even applies. Just my 2 cents.

In4Ride

In4ride....I think that we are about in the same boat as far as where our sitch's are at, or at least some of the same thinking patterns. I am with you on the walking out of the room, not taking the blame for whatever is ailing H, and enjoying myself even if H is a grump.

I had a call on Father's Day from D23 and it is still bothering me. For starters, she called to talk to me and would not talk to H so I didn't tell H she had called. I made a comment that H had made about buying a canoe next summer if we were still here. D23 wanted to know if that meant one of may not be here.

Since no one knows exactly what is wrong with our M, D was taking a guess that it is something serious. She then went on to ask why I didn't fix what was wrong, that she knows I am not happy in this M. I told her I am working on it.

What really bothers me is that she is engaged but is not 100% happy with her relationship with her guy. I told her to not settle for anything less than wonderful, expecially since they are not married yet. She said, "Why, you have. I am just waiting to see what you are going to do about dad before I make a decision". She remembers how happy and loving H and I were up until his A started 3 years ago, she just doesn't know the reason why things aren't good now.

I just feel it puts more of a burden on me to get this show on the road....

Wishing

Wishing,
I think it puts more of a burden on you to have some heart to hearts with your daughter.

How long have you been married? Quite a while, I am certain. And after all these years, the "worse" has reared its ugly head. BECAUSE of the history you have with your H, you are making every effort to save your M.

To START a M, even before the wedding, unhappy is another thing all together. They are not the same. I know that the first year can be incredibly difficult, but if your daughter is questioning things, maybe you can help her sort out her feelings, whatever they may be.

You can't hurry up your sitch... if you could this bb would not exist (except for one post from you!) but you can talk openly and honestly with your daughter. You don't have to mention the A, and you certainly don't want to poison her against your H, but it may be time to let her know that trouble can and does exist in marriages. JMHO

Hi Wishing,

If I were you, I would talk to your D heart to heart. She is 23 and mature enough to know. IMHO.

But I think your H has recommited to your M. So you may not need to mention about his A to your D.

I am waiting for my W's decision tomorrow. Just wait and see.

Raindeer

H came back from the canoe trip on Sat. and, for the most part, things have been OK. By OK I mean not a lot of tension, some sharing, doing thoughtful acts....but absolutely nothing dealing with touch or talks or anything about the future. But for now, that is alright.

Holdingon & Raindeer.....D23 knows that my M of 25 years is in trouble and what I think she is saying is that she is watching to see how I handle it. Am I willing to give up when the going is rough or is M something that one fights for.....whatever form that fighting takes. I have discussed many issues with D23 but, to this point, I have not told her anything that she has not picked up herself and questioned me about. My fear of talking to the kids too much is that if H and I do get back together that I would have driven a wedge between them and H that could not be removed.

H, S14 and I leave Friday for 4 days for son's swim meet and then to Mount Rushmore for the 4th. Hopefully it will be quality time with H.

Wishing

Wishing,

Use the quality time with your H wisely. I have the feeling that your M will be OK. Your H is willing to work on M, although in his way and slow.

My W did not want to cut off tie with the om. Nothing works as long as she emotionally attached to the om. It is time for her to try the perfect life that she is imagining.

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

How's it going?

In4Ride

Life just keeps going on....some ups, some downs, and a lot of standing in one place.

I have spent an incredible amount of time with H the past few weekends either in motels or traveling since S14 has swim meets on weekends. There has been no change except for my frustration building.

I am so tired of H showing such care and concern with all the other women and laughing and carrying on conversations with everyone, and then when he is with me he initiates no conversation. Last night was the final straw. We went to my nieces 5th birthday party, and you would have thought I had lice or something. H totally ignored me, wouldn't even sit by the kids and I throughout the whole evening and was as nice as pie to everyone, but not a word to the kids or I.

It was an hour ride home, and I tried to carry on a conversation for the first half of the ride, and then gave up and we rode the rest of the way in silence.

When we got home and the kids were out of the room, I told H that I needed him to start sharing some of his life with me. (For several weeks now H has been planning a big conferece in town next week along with BIL being here for another couple of weeks, and only just told me about it last night after I was asking some questions about H's work). I told him that not talking to me made things seems like a big secret, and that I knew he was good at keeping secrets. (Heck, he kept OW a secret for 2 1/2 years!!!!) H did not say a word, but fixed himself a drink.

I waited a few minutes for H to make any comment, and when he didn't I finally told him that he either needed to start working on repairing this M or move out.

H again made no comment so I went and took care of the bunnies. H then went to the living room, watched tv, finished his drink and went to bed and I haven't seen him since.

Frustration reigns!!!!

Wishing

Wishing, I wanted to stop by and check on you. I was hoping for good news or no news. Sorry to hear that your fustration is still at record highs. You certainly have made your wishes known to H, and will have to figure out what is next. Wish I had something wise to say, or a magic bullet. But I truly believe that we you can't hold on any longer, you'll know, and something will happen. Trust.

Hi Wishing,

I can feel your frustration. I experienced exactly the same situation with my W.

It is good that you have told your H about what you need from him. Life is hard if your partner does not want to show commitment to improve your R.

In the last few days, my W is still grieving about her lost. My C told me to be patient. The C believes that their R is over. This time my W was given the freedom to go. She had to discuss her future with the om and talked about reality of a life together. They concluded that it is not going to work. So she realises on her own that there will be no life with the om afterall. She told me that she is going to business trip on Mon for few days. I asked whether she is going with the om. She said she is going alone. No anger this time. My C told me that she needs me to show her love now as she wants to be accepted but too ashamed to ask. This morning I hugged and kissed her on the cheek when she went to work. She did not show any rejection like last year. May be it is a new beginning? I can only go slowly.

Raindeer

Wishing,

I'm sorry to hear things are so difficult. It sounds to me as if your H is still very conflicted about what he wants. I'm thinking that it can still count as a positive that the response from your H was silence rather than a negative. That tells me he doesn't know the answer.

You've told him what you want, so now it's time to really drop the rope and proceed as if you're just not thinking about it anymore. My H only started to relax when he realized (falsely of course) that I wasn't focusing on him or the R at all. I turned almost all of my focus onto myself and what changes I needed to make in my thinking and behavior regardless of what happened in the end. I always acted as if I was unconcerned about his activities, and the fact they didn't include me.

Hope things are a little better today.

In4Ride

Kelli....Thanks for stopping by. I feel like we went through a lot of bad stuff together and do wonder about you. Since you don't post on your own thread anymore I am assuming that you are doing OK?

Raindeer.....Hopefully you have hit the bottom of the rollercoaster (or rather W has splatted on the bottom and will be able to work her way up). Things really looked bad for you there, but that was also the time that you totally dropped the rope. Maybe that is what W needed???

In4Ride...I know our sitches are different but in a way they feel a lot alike. Our H's seem almost content with the status quo, but I am NOT. I don't know how to drop the rope anymore and still live in the same house.

At times I wonder if H is totally deaf...but,I agree with you that a lack of response from H probably means that he doesn't know the answer....but H has not been able to decide for 2 1/2 years now. There has to be an end someplace.

A year and a half ago, when I found out about H's 2 1/2 year A, H suggested he move out, and I told him "no". I wish so much that I would have had a firmer grasp on DBing and would have let him go, but that was then and this is now.

H did talk to me a little bit tonight about where he was today and when BIL is coming in and also what the schedule will be for the next week or so.

There is a pattern here that I don't know how to break. I am trying to not question H or put any pressure on him, but when it gets to a point that I am going to explode I say something to H......and then he usually does make some effort ease my frustrations. Then, I feel like I have forced him to do something, but which, in a normal M, would just be a natural thing to do.

I usually say something once to H, and then let it drop and look to see what happens. It is just that I have been at this for so long that I am just plain tired of it.

Will see what tomorrow brings.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I was ready to let go my W and start a new life. Looking at post by Kartom in Pinkcat's thread, he quoted Dr James Dobson about reestablishing respect. Dr Dobson suggested that I have to open the cage and let the involved Spouse (my W) to decide on her own destiny. Then the WAW may reconsider her options. My W is free to choose. Maybe my W feel trapped by me and our M. When I let her choose on her own, she found out on her own that the om may not be the ideal partner afterall.

I hope your H is willing to work on your M. The book "Not just friend" is S.Glass is very good. It is very helpful if your H is willing to read.

Raindeer

Wishing,

I'm thinking about you saying there's a pattern in your R. This is something that sounds like it needs some focused attention, and something different, which you already know. What could you be doing that would be very different from what you're doing now? Can't remember, is your H P/A? It could be that it's his way of controlling, consciously or not. He makes you ask, and then he gives little tidbits of information.

What if you just didn't worry about what his plans are and just made your own, and of course keeping him informed of YOUR plans in a very friendly manner. My H seemed compelled to start telling me his plans when I stopped acting concerned about it and went my own way. I stopped asking anything about his activities except to ask how it was afterwards (didn't want him to think I didn't care at all). If something conflicted, well I guess he should have told me sooner

. I didn't take ownership of knowing what was going on, because clearly I was clueless.

My H is a non-talker also. You probably know this, but I find the less I talk (very difficult for me), the more he does. I also started asking more conversational questions rather than just talking - things that required a response from him. But NEVER any questions/conversaton related to R, his feelings, his plans, etc. Just misc. topics - current events, biking, his work, the dogs, whatever. It's almost the type of conversation you have when you start dating someone, when you're trying to get to know the person.

I often think my H is deaf also. I think these guys live in their heads so much they tune everything out. It's also possible your H is like mine in that he needs a looonnnggg time to process. My H almost always tells me things eventually, but eventually can be a long time coming with him. I've come to think that sometimes he has been afraid to tell me things, trying to avoid a reaction he doesn't want to deal with. One of MY biggest changes is to not react immediately to things until I take the time to process it.

Obviously, not talking so much to H has caused me to become much more verbose in other forums - sorry my posts are so long.

In4Ride

Wishing,

Don't give up yet and you'll win. Your H has thought through for so long and he does not make decision. I don't think he wants to leave at all. Unless you give him a new reason to. It is not easy to leave a M after twenty odd years. He said that his A has ended last year. Why should he start now if it did not work out by then. If jealousy can help your cause, do it. But I am not certain. It depends on your H's character also.

In my case it is more complicated as my W can't think straight because of her depression. SHe does not trust me either. That is the difficult part. Unless she trust me and want me to help her, it is very difficult for her to open up to me. What can I do to help her trust me? Be her friend?

Raindeer

Yesterday afternoon I spent a very uncomfortable couple of hours with H filling out a financial statement. Supposedly it is for the bank. We had to fill one out 2 years ago when H was starting his business. But, H has paid back all he had borrowed to start his business and has not had to borrow any money in a long time, so I do not understand why the bank would want one now.

The way H acted while we were gathering the info and filling it out was almost like were were dividing our marital assets. The form would ask for our IRA totals or cash value on our life insurance or retirment accounts; I would list the numbers off to H and then add everything together since only totals were asked for. H would then make notations on the side of exactly how much each of us had. (At one point I pointed to what H was doing and said that that made me uncomfortable, and H just shrugged his shoulders).

A little later I told him that I did not want bimbo secretary to see any of the numbers we were putting down. H assurred me that she would not but told me that she does have access to all the business financial records. To which I replied that I did not. H then said I could look at them anytime. H then went into work for a few hours and came home late and put a copy of the business balance sheet on the island, but made no comment to me about it. I noticed this morning that H had put it will my mail so I would be sure to see it.

I haven't commented to H about it yet, but the business balance sheet does have me concerned. Supposedly, H's business is a sole proprietorship. On the balance sheet it shows the capital account many thousands in the red, but also shows a retained earnings account (which I thought was only for incorporated businesses). It is absolutely terrible that I trust H so little.

Other than that, things went fine until H, S14 and I went out for breakfast after church. Because of a State swim meet, S14 will miss the bus for a church camp on Sunday, so we have to take him to camp which is about 4 hours away. For the last month or so I have been talking about "we" taking son out and that I was looking forward to seeing where son has gone to camp for the last few years. At breakfast H said that he had arranged a business meeting for the following Monday. I said that was no problem for me because I have relatives there that I would love to spend the day with and H could drop me off there and pick me up when he was done and it would only be about 10 minutes out of his way. H then had a "deer in the headlights" look and stammered something back along the lines of "I plan on going alone". I was so shocked I was speechless.

There was nothing but guilt written all over H's face. I let it drop, but before he leaves I will ask him directly if he is meeting with a woman. My line is firm and I will no way, no how tolerate another affair, whether emotional or physical.

After breakfast we went home and spent most of the day putzing around the house, but comfortable with one another. Then all of a sudden, H come hurrying to the basement where I was cleaning and said he "had" to go back to the office. I said OK, and did not ask what could possibly be going on at the office that he had hurry there on a Sunday night.

This summer I have been doing many of the things that I gave up for 2 years because I was so busy just trying to please H and be available for him. I have come to realize that I am very much OK alone and I have so much to keep me pleasantly busy.

I am just finishing up a quilt for S14 to take to his swim meets. S14 had been using one I had made when I was in junior high, but it is falling apart. So, S14 and I picked out material last week and I got busy and almost have it done. Since the quilt will spend a great deal of time on the grass/cement at meets, I made a simple one of 5" blocks that we tied. I did the sewing but S14 did the tying. It was a wonderful project for us and good quality time with son.

I am also working on a double wedding ring quilt for D23 and anther sample quilt for son's bed. I also got the store room cleaned out and hope to start on refinishing a chair and building a shelving unit to hold all my thread. So much to do and so little time since school starts in less than a month.

Wishing

Wishing,

I wish I know the answer about why your H did what he did. Why can't the WAS decides one way or another. Either leave or work on M.

I am also at loss with my W's behaviour. Yesterday she went for 2 days business trip. She did not call at all. It is just interstate. It shows that she is still in limbo land. Why did not she leave and let me move on with my life if she does not to work on our M. She can follow her dream life with the om. She is the one who decided to stay. Why can't she then try to work on our M?

Can you understand a WAS?

Raindeer

I stopped by H's office yesterday to get the info on picking BIL from the airport. H was there alone but acting so incredibly guilty. I sure wish I knew what was going on.

H and I had organized a supper and family softball game for S14's team before their last game last night. It was sure a nice time and had lots of fun! I never was any good at softball but did manage to hit the ball everytime up to bat and even made it home a few times. (My hips are sure feeling it today!)

For most of the supper and game H physically distanced himself from me....which, of course, is very hurtful. I just went on and had a good time anyhow. However, I did notice that later in to the game he did come up and stand withing talking distance of me....and we shared different highlights of the game. The ride home afterwards with S14 and H was filled with laughter, and so was the retelling of the evening to BIL and D18.

BIL is here for the next week or so. Since H usually turns ugly towards me when BIL is here I am kind of antsy to see what happens.

I'm off to start refinishing a chair and hopefully get some time in on S14's quilt today.

Wishing

Wishing,

It is difficult to understand what our S is thinking, don't we? It seems that they are from other planet.

Hope your H is not behaving strangely when your BIL is with you. I don't want to spend my time to understand my W. I just do thing for myself. If she comes along, fine. If not, I don't care also. It is hard tolive with a depressed person.

I am not sure if your H is also depressed? I would suggest that you enjoy your time with your kids. If H comes along, enjoy the time together. If he does not, it is his loss. Continue to live your life as happy as you could. I hope one day your H will come out from his shell.

Raindeer

I didn't see H yesterday until him and BIL walked in the door for supper. As usual, H said "hi" to the kids and asked about their day, but not a word to me....not even a "hi". We had a full table at supper and we were all talking and I asked H if he had finished a powerpoint he was working on. H gave me a dirty look and in a nasty tone said, "no, but I gave it anyway". Everyone at the table kind of gasped at the tone. It didn't take me long to finish eating and leave the table.

I was sewing a while later and H came in and said he and BIL were going back to the office and wouldn't be late getting home. I told H fine, but asked if he would talk nice to me when he got home. H then asks me if he hadn't talked nice to me tonight. I brought up the incident at supper and H knew the exact words he had said, but did not have a clue about the tone of voice he used. I told him I should get a tape recorder so he can hear the tone he uses.

H got home very late but I was in bed reading. H at least was pleasant for a few minutes until I asked him if he was going to a funeral today. H just turned on me and snapped "NO". I am sure I stared at H with astonishment since this was a lady that just a couple months ago H insisted that we "adopt" for an away weekend swimmeet and give her and her son a ride every which way and make sure they got to places. I just don't understand H at all.

Wishing

Wishing,

I don't think your H knows what impact his tone on you when he speaks. He may not mean it. But he gave you an imppression of he was unpleasant. It is good that you gave him feedback. It is a good beginning of mutual understanding.

Raindeer

Maybe once BIL leaves my level of frustration will go down. I am just about over the top.

Unless something is said otherwise, supper is always planned for 6:30 (I prefer 5:30 but it is another control issue that I let H win). H and BIL were not home at 6:30 and S14 had to eat since he had a meeting. So I called both H's cell and office phone to let them know we were eating, but no answer. So son and I ate, cleaned up, and left. As we were pulling out of the driveway H and BIL came driving up, but we left anyhow. I was fuming. When I get a quiet monent with H I am going to have to let him know that it is very hurtful to me to fix the meals that I am expected to fix and him not even to have the courtesy to let me know he will not be home to eat. I don't have a problem with H not being home for meals; I do have a problem when I go through the time and effort to make good meals and then he doesn't show up.

When son and I got home, H and BIL had reheated the food and put the dirty dishes in the sink. So I did the dishes and then went to the basement for awhile to cool off. Later, I started to clean the bunny cage and H and BIL did grab the vacuum and vacuumed the sunroom and office while I was cleaning the cage. H also moved all the furniture and put it back which was nice.

I almost felt like they were trying to make up for being jerks about supper by helping me out. One of the problems that I think I have is that one of H's LL is act of service, along with words of affirmation, but those are not mine. Which means that I get little pleasure out of H "doing" things for me. I just see things he does as thing that SHOULD be done in a normal marriage. It would have meant much more to me for H just to say "sorry we were late". Somehow I am also going to have to convey that message to H. I am just so tired of not being able to talk to H without him using a disgusted tone or criticizing me. I am so gun-shy of the way H talks to me that I find myself not wanting to talk to him at all.

Wishing

Hi Wishing..

Just wanted to stop in and say i'm sorry your feeling so frustrated... but from what I understand of DBing... letting go of epectations will set you free. assume that H will not be home that way you will not have to be upset when he doesnt get there... only a suggestion and sooo much easier said then done. I know that my H hates feeling like he has to check in, I know it is respectful to do so, but for me it is control.. I want him in a specific place at a specific time... It is something I have had to let go for my own peace... Sometimes when we act as though something doesnt bother us, we get more respect!! backwards I know.. and i'm really just a newbie, you have been Dbing a lot longer.. i just wanted to offer up some support for all that your going through, just try to find some ways to reduce stress for yourself... Hugs.

Hi Wishing,

My W never wait for me to have dinner. I don't mind if the kids eat first. My mom is like you. Always wait for my dad before start eating. I used to call home when I was late. In the last 2 years I stopped doing it. My W does not seem to care whether I am home or not.

Today and tomorrow I will enjoy my time with kids. I spoil them and take them out tonite and tomorrow lunch. My W enjoy her time with the om also. But I don't care anymore. Maybe it shows that I don't need my W anymore. Time to go our separate way??

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

Sorry I haven't been by in a while.

The evening you describe is very familiar to me and I'm very familiar with that anger and frustration. They were my constant companions for years. So, I hope you won't get mad when I say you're doing it to yourself. I've got the same control issues. If you stop to look at it, that's what's going on. I've been through the same thing, getting mad and frustrated and then trying to get H to accept the responsibility for my anger. It's a no win.

You have to really and truly drop the rope. H knows you're making dinner, he knows what time you usually eat, right? So, if he's not there, he's on his own. You just have to convince yourself that everyone else is not your responsibility. I'm not saying be nasty about it, but rather the opposite. Be very nice but just stop trying to control the world around you (this sounds much harsher than I intend). If people don't do what you think they should be doing, you let yourself stress because it's not 'right' (I know it's also the issue of preparing food for them, but...).

Imagine what it must feel like to not even worry about other people? It's very hard for controlaholics like us, but it's worth the effort to let go. It's like the 12 steps - accept that you have NO control over others. It's incredibly liberating - you'll feel great, I promise.

Except for your children, just try to let everyone else go. They're adults - they know how to dress, feed, and take care of themselves. When I really took my H's feeling that I'm controlling to heart, I realized that most of what I did that I thought was thoughtful, helpful, and just being responsible, was actually controlling (or perceived that way). I thought I was just doing - I was amazed how much I was 'controlling'.

Examples - You say you're expected to fix meals? First of all, who expects it? Second, ok you fix the meal - and whoever is there gets to eat it. If they're not there and haven't called, you just clean up as you normally do and move on. You have no further responsibility and no obligation to stress about it. They are not going to starve.

Second, after already feeling put upon, you go on to do further work, cleaning, which if you're anything like me, really pisses you off and sends you over the edge because H never does his fair share. You don't ask anyone else to do it even though so far your H has had a free ride that evening. But some of your controlling worked because H was scared into helping with the vacuuming and moving furniture.

I know I'm sounding like a smarta$$, but it's only because it sounds as if we're twins in an alternate universe. One of the things I've had to learn is to stop doing things, stop saying yes when I don't want to whatever, stop being responsible for others - then becoming mad because I'm doing everything, doing something I didn't want to do, and being unable to control others. You have to become comfortable with that feeling that some things just aren't getting done or being done 'right' (which means our way).

AND learning to ask directly if you want someone to do something. A big one! And then, if they don't do it after saying they will, do not pick up the rope.

I think this whole thing would be a big 180. I think it would be way more effective than having any kind of quiet talk with your H. I'm not sure I would even bother with the talk - do you think your H doesn't know that you were angry and why? I'm sure he's become an expert on reading your moods.

I hope I'm not being too 'know-it-all'. It just really helped me when I was able to change this dynamic, and the effect on my H was very positive, even though I was doing less for him!

Feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

In4Ride

I agree that this isn't something to pursue too heavily. If anything, just let him know that dinner will be ready at 6:30pm every day unless he calls you and lets you know he'll be late. If he's there after 6:30, he can reheat the food himself.

I don't think they were being jerks, they were just being men. Men and women see things differently.

Hi, Wishing, Stopping in again to see if anything new has progressed. I think H's butt had grown permanently attached to the fence!
A thought on the tone. What would H do if you responded - immediately - when he was talking nasty, with a polite. Please don't use that tone of voice with me. I don't deserve it. Now, what were you saying?" It would let him know immediately that it was an issue. It seems you let it fester until you are alone, and by then he's forgotten what you are talking about. I know my H is clueless about what is bothing me unless I tell him.

Hi Wishing,

Both Kelli's and In4Ride's advices are valid. I would try myselfif I were you. In4Ride's comment is valid for me too. If I don't take my W's action to heart, I will feel better. If I offer something to my W and she did not take it. I will move on. If I am upset about it, it is no good to me. This attitude can be learned. It will free a lot of my burdan.

Hope everything going well with you.

Raindeer

Thanks for the support EVERYONE!!!

But, H asked for a D last night and even had the paperwork in the car. They were the papers he had had drawn up last Aug. He couldn't give me updated ones because his L is out of town until next week.

We had a long drawn out talk about how to split things which of course we don't see eye to eye on.

H has been planning this for a long time and pretty much has his ducks in a row on how things will work out. However, he could have picked a little bit better timing seeing as how we move D18 to Notre Dame in two weeks and S14 and I start school in a little over 2 weeks. Since H has been planning this for so long, he could have at least had the decency to give me the summer to get my act together.

After we had had a major talk, I told H I needed his business financial records, so at 11:30 last night we went to his office and he made me copies. We then went home and talked in the car some more. D18 had come home from a vacation while we were at the office. I went upstairs to dry my eyes a little, but H went to D18 and told her what "we" were doing. I could not believe that something this major we wouldn't have told her together. Now, I have no idea how the other kids will be told.

The only bright spot in the whole evening was when I mentioned a seperation instead of a D. H seemed to jump on that and even told D18 that he would check that out today.

I did ask H to move out although last night he did sleep in the basement. I noticed this morning that when he left he had taken his suitcase and the newspaper (I am assuming to look for a place to live).

HELP!!!

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I am very sorry for what you are going through. I know that you have mentally expected something like that will happen. But when it happens, it really hits you.

But remember Michele's book, S does not mean D. Sometimes two of you need to S for awhile to find out the real feeling to each other. IMHO, give the best impression to your H before you go dark on him. Use the LRT. He shows a positive response to S, and not D. May be he needs to sort out his true feeling alone. Maybe after S, he finds out that he really misses you.

In the mean time, live your life the the fullest. Be happy. It does not matter whether your H comes back or not. You must be happy yourself. If your H comes back, it is an icing in the cake. If not, you move on with your life.

We are here to comfort you. May God bless you with peace. I will keep you in my prayer. Big hugs from me.

Raindeer

I think this has been the longest day of my life. Thank goodness D18 has stuck around me for most of the day. She took me out to get some sleeping pills which the doctor ordered, then later out for tanning and then for supper. what a life saver she has been. I don't know why, but I am still hesitant to tell friends and family until I know just what H is up to. S14 and D21 will be here tomorrow afternoon, but I am not sure when I will tell them.

I asked D18 if asking H to move out was the right thing. She hesitated a moment and said "Ya, you needed to to save your sanity".

D18 also went to our pastor and asked him to come over...so spent an hour or so talking to him. That sure helped. I have tried to keep busy today but time is just dragging. I am hoping the pills will help me get a good nights sleep so I can cope a little better tomorrow.

Please send prayers of healing.....

Wishing

Raindeer,

Thanks so much for your continued support.

I know that a separation is not a D, but I really think that H feels he has no choice but to D.

I am hoping that H goes along with a separation, but I don't know what that entails since H wants something legally binding. At least I don't think we would have to split assets right away and I think the kids would feel better about a S as opposed to a D. Who knows???

I have had no contact with H today and won't unless he initiates it or it involves the kids. This is so hard!!

Wishing

Wishing,

I understand how hard it is for you now. I have experienced it for one day. It was terrible.

But I am sure your kids are supportig you. Soon or later your H will miss you and reconsider the whole situation. By then he will be more committed to work on your M.

I have a couple friends. The W left the H and took the kids with her. She is a dentist and can afford to buy another new house. After 4 years of S and experienced depression, she finally realized that she also contributed to the problem in their M. So they sold their two previous houses and bought a new one and moved in together again as a family. They are both very committed to work on their M now. She gave me advice last year. She said that my W will also wake up once she has tried to live alone. I hope your H will also realize how much he misses what you do for the family. He probably takes them for granted. Your kids will provide you with moral support. They will comfort you. Try to live a happy life for now even without your H.

My A told me last time that you can draft a asset settlement agreement even in a S. You just don't enforce it until officially D. There still hope. But don't raise your expectation. I'll pray for you. Hugs to you.

Raindeer

Wishing,

I'm so sorry about what you're going through. Please take the time to really take care of yourself right now. Let everything and everyone else take care of themselves for a little while.

Remember, you'll be OK no matter what happens. It's good that you have D18 there for you. Take things slow and ask H for whatever time you need.

I never separated but many others with more experience have said that sometimes it helps the situation. My H's therapist told him that sometimes you have to separate to know what you're doing.

We're all here for you.
In4Ride

Thanks guys!! It is very comforting to know that others know and care.

This has been an unsettling evening. I had not heard from H since I told him goodbye Wed. night as he was walking out of our bedroom.

About the time I normally start to fix supper H called and wanted to know how things were going. I told H I was just starting supper for S14 and myself...that the girls were working. H already knew the girls were working and was shocked when I told him S14 was home. H said he didn't think S14 would be back from camp until Sat. night.

So.....H called when he thought no one else would be home...hmmmm.

Anyhow, we ended up talking for about 20 minutes and it was one of the nicest, most relaxed talks we have had in FOREVER! (I just hated the subject matter!!) H said he drove an hour to his mom's last night, told her he was leaving me, not sure about a separation or D, and that I was 100% against this whole thing. His mom apparantly told him that there was no need to rush into anything. I told H that I agreed and thought we should try a separation for awhile.

I told H I was in the process of fixing supper and that he could join us if he wanted. He said he would.

But, this is what I mean about knowing H still cares.....I have several plants at H's office and had not been in to water them this week (I was planning on having one of the kids bring them home this weekend but hadn't told H that). Anyhow, H brought up the fact that they hadn't been watered and said he would do it if I would tell him how. H has NEVER watered a plant in his life....and I thougt it was very touching that he would offer to take care of mine.

H then said that he had a check for my lawyers retainer fee and some extra for me and the kids and he would deposit that tonight. H wanted to know what to do about the checking account and kind of hinted that we leave things the way they are now and just work it out. (We have one account that my paycheck goes into and H just gives me money when I ask). I told him that until things were permanent (as in D) that that would be OK.

H then said that he didn't have a bed or a place to stay tonight and asked if he could stay in the basement tonight. I told him that was fine. H then went on to say that he had found a place today, that he had looked at a couple and explained in detail where it was at, the landlords, what the place was like...... To be honest, I didn't want to know, but it seemed like it was important for H to tell me.

H came for supper, had to go back to the office for awhile and then will spend the night here. It is just so weird.

Then, H asked if we could take S14 shopping tomorrow for a queen sized bed since he has outgrown his twin. So, that will be a few hours spent with H tomorrow. We also have a send off for D18 on Sunday from the Notre Dame alumni....so that will be more time together.

Honestly, I don't know if I am up to all this togetherness....I think it will be very hard to keep my composure around H.

I had told him the other night that if we do D, then I wanted to see him as little as possible. I guess those same feeling don't hold true in a separation. Maybe, to me, if it comes to a D, then I know in my heart that will be then end of the line. But, with just a separation, there is still hope.

So Kelli....H is still planted on that darn fence, but at least now both feet are on one side (not the side I would like!) but he hasn't quite jumped off.

On the phone H asked if I had told any of the kids and I told him "no". Since D18 knows we HAVE to tell them soon.

What is so frustrating is that Wed. night after H asked for the D and again on the phone and at supper tonight, H and I have had the easiest, most relaxed conversations.....it is almost like we have bared our souls and the suspicion and anger is gone. If we could keep that up I really do think there could be hope.

Raindeer, In4Ride.....I do think a separation will be good for us, or at least for me. 2 1/2 of walking around eggshells is gone, and H is finally making a some form of decision. We will just see where we go from here.

Wishing

I don't know how to handle this. H spent the night. He was going to sleep in the basement but S14 had a bunch of friends over so he really couldn't. I told him he could sleep in our bed and I would sleep on the twin in son's room. This morning H made coffee, read the paper and is now working in the garage on the front door lock which had broked ages ago.

It is so hard having him here yet knowing he is leaving.

H, S14 and I are leaving in a little bit to get son a queen sized bed since he has outgrown his twin. (H is just as tall as son but has asked if he could take son's bed for his apartment...and I said that was OK). I sure hope H can sleep on it better than I did last night!!

One thing I have noticed this morning is a lack of tension between H and I....and that is a good thing.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

Hang on there. There is still hope.

When my W told me she wanted to move out last year, we could talk very well like friends. Maybe once decision is made, you feel better. But my W cancelled her moving out. It have been 3 times now.

I think it is good for your H to live alone for a while. It certainly make him misses you and family more. When he is back, he will appreciate more what he was missing.

My W left only for 9 hours. Not long enough for her to miss the family. So she still isn't committed to work on out R. She is lingering on her depression and MLC. See from positive side of your situation. I do believe your H has not made up his mind yet. It is hard to leave the family. Otherwise he would have told your kids about it. He felt guilty. He needs to work on himself and find out his true feeling. Then he can works on your R.

Try to live your live to the fullest without H. Don't give up hope yet. I'll pray for you.

Raindeer

I am not sure that H moving out will make him "miss" us. H has lived on his own twice for a year at a time when the Marines shipped him overseas, and then many times for months at a time when he was sent to school or training.

This has been the strangest weekend. H, S14 and I wento the city shopping on Sat. for a queen sized bed for S14. We had a wonderful day with joking and laughter and pleasant conversation. By the time we got the bed home and set up it was getting kind of late.

I asked H if he had electricity yet at his new place and he said "yes, why?" I told him if he didn't have the electricity turned on he stay in one the of extra beds here. H asked me where I would prefer him to stay....and of course I said "here".

We had loaded son's bed into the pickup. It was supposed to rain so I offered to move my car so the pickup could be put into the garage. H said he thought he would just take the bed to the trailer. H then putzed around for a little bit and I could tell he wanted to talk. I did not ask what was on his mind, but a little later H asked if I would like to see the trailer he had rented, and I said I would.

How weird is it to help a H set up a bed in a trailer he is moving into. I helped H reassemble the bed and even put the sheets on. H then showed me around the place, even opening all the closets and drawers. It seemed very important to H that I like the place, and the location. In different ways I told H that he was lucky to find such a gem of a place.

We then went back home and H was loaded some stuff onto my computer and we watched a little tv. It was such a nice day and totally free of the tension that has been there for the past couple of years.

We spent yesterday in the city with both S14 and D18. We went to a social for D18 and spent the rest of the day shopping for the kids for school. It was a great day together. H was kind, pleasant, thoughtful and just nice to be around. It is almost like once the decision was made to move out that H is no longer looking for ways to criticize me. Or maybe it is that H is taking what I say and do at face value and not trying to find harmful, hurtful underlying meaning in my words and actions. Or, maybe he is just more at peace with himself since making a decision and he is not carrying his frustrations out on me. Whatever happened, it has made communication with H a lot more pleasant.

At one point while we were shopping H even put his fingers in the middle of my back to indicate I was to go first. I about died from the contact....to me that is a very intimate gesture, and since H hasn't touched me in months it was wonderful.

We got home kind of late and H started working on D18's computer. Around 11 I told H he could stay here again if he wanted. H then said that we needed to talk about that. We are having a birthday party for S14 on Friday and H asked if it would be OK if he just stayed here until that was over. I agreed to that.

H is not taking being here for granted. He has kept his dirty clothes in his suitcase and would take them elsewhere to wash them. However, I did tell him I was doing laundry today if he needed anything washed so he did dig out his dirty clothes. Since H did not expect me to do them, I do not feel like a maid since I am.

I am not sure what today will bring or even if H will be here for lunch and supper.....but it is something I am not going to worry about. H is on his own journey now and I am just watching from the sidelines.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

This is the best time to db. The tension is gone, H is calm, and you're interacting. Now's the time to show him the woman he married all over again. It helps to think of it as back when you we first dating - how did you act then to get a guy interested? You were on your best dbing behavior. You'll never have a better opportunity than right now.

After my H made his decision to move out was when we started to reconnect again. I had to listen to all his talk about moving out, making changes in his apartment, what stuff he was going to take from the house - and it was very difficult not to react when I just wanted to throw up. But, you have to be as upbeat, considerate, and friendly as you can possibly be. Becoming best friends at this stage is the key.

But I think it was the fact that everything was so pleasant and I was dbing my a$$ off, as we say, that made him rethink his decision. I didn't know whether I was fighting a losing battle or not, but I will never regret it because I ended up becoming the person I used to be, and that H fell in love with the first time.

Your H is hanging around, he obviously still cares for you and still likes you. You just have to make him feel comfortable still doing that, making it more comfortable than being away from you. No pressure, no talks - it's all up to him now. Just go with the flow. I think it's very interesting that he wanted you to see his place, and that you're opinion still counts with him. Keep dropping the rope and let him control things. Start thinking about some more 180's. It was good that you let him bring up the seeing the trailer - that's the way to handle it. He sounds a bit like my H - he'll eventually tell you almost everything if you just let him do it at his own speed.

Despite the separation, you're still in a good place to make progress.

In4Ride

In4Ride,

I agree with you on the whole separation thing. H has to do what HE feels must be done, and do it in his own time. The tension being gone is absolutely wonderful and it makes interactions so much more natural.

I was in the garden when H left this morning so I did not see him before he left. I had 3 kids home for lunch, so I just fixed things as normal. I wasn't sure if H would be here or not, but there was no way I was calling to ask. I am really trying to give him space and let him call the shots. Well, about 15 before or normal lunch time H called. He started to say something about lunch until D18 picked up the phone. Since I knew she was on the other line, I told H I was fixing goulash and it would be ready in about 10 min. H then spoke briefly to D18, she hung up, then H said he would be home shortly.....and he was.

D18 is the only one of the kids we have actually told about the separation and she is really confused about why H is still here. I just told her I wasn't asking questions, I was just taking things one day at a time.

I honestly do feel that H will be moving out, but at his own pace. Although he has asked to stay here until after Friday, H still has his suitcase in the bedroom and keeps his dirty clothes there and his shaving kit. I helped him move his bed to his trailer and we have talked about which tv to take and which comforter. We have 3 large tvs in the house, but H asked to take the small one in our bedroom. H has not come right out and said it, but I know he does not want to disrupt the house by taking stuff out that we would miss. He is also mindful of what all this is costing.

One day at a time.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I agree with In4Ride, use the opportunity to do DBing while the tention was gone.

I experience few times with my W. We could talk better after she decided to move out. The longer your H is staying in your house, the more difficult for him to make decision to move out. Going on assignment temporarily is very different than moving out (S). You can't look forward to go home anymore. It makes you sad. That's why I believe strongly that your H will miss you and the kids once he moves out. He will think about what will the life be without you and the kids. Not the same as going on business trip.

Keep DBing and don't lose your hope.

Raindeer

Raindeer.....I do think that the only way to win is to DB...so am doing my best!

I had a really tough moment this afternoon. Friday night when H came home he told me he had put some financial stuff from his business in with some paperwork I needed to work on. I just looked at it today and in with the financial stuff was a sheet of address labels for his trailer. It was incredibly sad.

I had mentioned at noon that we had to eat early since S14 had a commitment tonight. At the time H sounded like he would like to be here since 3 of our kids would be here. Come time to eat, no H. I thought long and hard about not calling him, but I did. H had forgotten we were eating early and said he would run out of the office and be home in a few minutes....which he was. He did seem pleased that I called.

H and I spent the rest of the evening in the sunroom. H was working on computers and researching stuff and I was sewing. For the most part it was a pleasant evening. H even told me when he was headed to bed.

I WILL enjoy the time we have together because I know in my heart that it is limited.

Wishing

Wishing,

Just enjoy your time together for now. No pressure. No R talk. Let your H make up his own mind.

I find it is the best way to let my W to find out the truth by making her own decision. Sometimes I have to push her to make decision. In your H case, he probably is not depressed. So he can make a rational decision.

Just be his friend right now and continue your DBing. I'll keep you in my prayer.

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

Maybe this little story about address labels will cheer you up and make you laugh - you never know the MLC mind.

A couple of weeks after H told me he was moving out, I started to clear out some stuff, in a mood to sweep things clean and work off frustration. Totally cleared out the refrigerator - I mean completely empty. Then I tackled the junk drawer, tossing those return address labels you get free in the mail - kept only those with my name (maiden name at that!). A few days later H wants to mail something (1st time in years), looks for return address labels (never used them before), and throws a fit because he can't find any with his name. He accuses me of throwing out all the ones with his name (which I did), and all I can think is 'what the he## do you need return address labels for if you're not going to be living here? What a putz!'

This incident gave me one of the few laughs I had at the time.
In4Ride

Hi Raindeer!

It seems so easy to be H's friend now that most of the tension is gone. H just now went back out to the garage to work on a vehicle after being in the house talking with me for the past half hour. We were just talking normal stuff, but it was soooooo nice.

Thanks for the prayers.

Wishing

In4Ride,

Yep, your address labels story did make me smile. You are right about these MLCer's not knowing what they want.

I thought that I asked H to leave, but I have just found out that when H took S14 to Bible camp a week and a half ago, that he told son that H and I may be living in seperate houses when he got back. What a load to drop of son's shoulders and let him worry for a week before he got home.

So, apparantly H had been planning on leaving for awhile and just hadn't bothered to tell me. But, for H being so determined to leave, I find it interesting that he was only gone for one night (last Thurs.) before he asked to come back until at least this coming Fri. night.

I think H was flirting with me earlier. He was under one of the vehicles working and I bent down to ask him a question. H saw me there, rolled out from underneath, smiled with both his eyes and lips, and said "yeeees" in a sexy tone. It seems like years since I have heard that tone directed towards me.

I am enjoying these precious days.

Wishing

Wishing,

Enjoy your easy time together as much as you can. Give your H a best impression. If he decides to live S, he will always look back and misses what he had with you. But he may change his mind and stays. My W did to me many times. I am not sure whether it is good for me. But it was good for the kids. They did not experience life without mom (except for 1 day).

It was good that H was flirting with you. I may have to think something to break the ice between me and my W. I may need to act like before the bomb was dropped?

Raindeer

Wishing,

Don't worry about H leaving until he's walking out the door. Just act as if you're happy with the time together. My H evicted our tenant, spent months fixing up his apt, etc. so he could move out, and he never left. It was very difficult to spend so long a time dreading it but I just kept acting as if I understood and I was OK. I kept reminding myself that each day was a another chance to DB. Eventually H told me he was going to spend the week at apt because it was closer to a job (yea right) and he came home for dinner the second night and came home for good the third night.

We have never discussed why he didn't move out. I never mentioned that it was odd that he didn't. I never asked when he was leaving or what he was doing or thinking. I avoided anything that required him to make a decision or provide a specific answer. I think this allowed him the time to relax and not feel pressured to jump one way or the other.

So don't stress too much about what H says - well, don't show the stress. I know it feels like a stab to the heart.
Already you can see how much more comfortable he is - flirting, wow! The more certain he is that he won't be called upon to provide answers or R talk, the more he will seek out your company.

You're doing great.
In4Ride

Hi Wishing,

It is not easy to do what In4Ride said. I wish I could do it too.

Keep doing DBing as you do now. Enjoy the good time one day at a time. It is wonderful that your H is trying to be closer to your kids. That will also make it harder for him to leave. No H who is planning to D his W wants to take life insurance for his W. Maybe he is just confused and wants to be alone and sort out his feelings.

I have to postpone my business trip next week. Next Tue my S's school has a important information night. I'll better attend myself.

Hang on there.

Raindeer

Raindeer,

Actually, I have known for a long time that H wants to make my life as comfortable as possible when he is gone. Not only was it the life insurance this morning, but tonight H had someone out to give us an estimate on having the driveway redone. I was thinking just a regular cement driveway. But H had the guy come into the house and show the dozens of different options, and H even made a copy of the patterned driveway that I liked.

I think that making our home as comfortable as possible somehow helps to ease the guilt H has over leaving.

Geez, if nothing else, I guess that I am going to have an awesome house no matter what the outcome.

There was just one bad moment tonight. H is putting a lot of $ and time into fixing up our 4x4 and made a comment tonight that he is putting extra into it so that I would have a vehicle to drive if the weather gets bad this winter. So far H seems to want to make sure that I am taken care of. I also noticed that the timeline H gave me last night for fixing it up would have had it done by Sat. But since he didn't work on it much last night and not at all tonight, that timeline has been extended to some time next week. H only asked to stay here until Fri. night so it will be interesting to see what happens.

One other interesting thing is that I noticed that today H started putting his dirty clothes down the laundry chute. I guess he feels comfortable enough to go back to the status quo?

I had a nice evening with H but am scared to death whenever we are alone....I am so scared of any R talks. Maybe that is how the WAWs normally feel around the LBS??

Wishing

HI Wishing,

I am not sure whether it is a guilt feeling. My W did not fix anything when she planned to leave. What your H is doing seems so illogical if he really plans to leave.

May be other LBS here can confirm whether their H did fixing before leaving. I would think that your H is feeling comfortable and not planning to leave any time soon like In4Ride's H. Just act as if and don't ask about his plan for the moment. Continue your relaxing time together.

Raindeer

Raindeer,

The things H is doing do not make sense at all to me so I am just taking things one day at a time.

The funny thing is, if anyone was looking in from the outsice they would not have a clue that ANYTHING was wrong with our M right now. H seems very much back to his old self, the tension is gone, the edge in H's voice is gone, and he is just plain and simple a nice guy to be around.

Heck, if it wasn't that we are sleeping in seperate beds, there is no physical contact and the sexual inuendos are missing along with the D papers I have in hand and an appointment with L next week, I wouldn't know that anything was wrong either.

We are having a birthday party for S14 tonight and taking all of his friends to the drive-in for a double feature. It will be a late night but this is a wonderful group of kids. I am courious to see what happens tomorrow with the living arrangements since H only asked to stay through tonight. It would be just fine with me if we kept with the status quo for awhile.

However, I do wonder if I am living in lala land...or am like an ostrich with its head in the sand.

Wishing

Wishing,

I know what you're feeling - that's why I wondered if I was delusional.

My H behaved similarly. He kept fixing up his apt to the point it started to look like he was searching for more things to fix and change rather than really leave. I think you're H may be stalling and second-guessing himself - a good thing. My H even slipped one time and said 'things are so much better now, I'm not sure I should leave'. But then he went out and bought a sofabed for the apt (which has been empty going on 8 mos now).

Don't worry about fooling yourself right now - you have to live in the moment. Just keep making it easy for your H to stay. Maybe you can even come up with more things he needs to fix - it sounds as if these are the type of things that make him feel good, being needed? Taking care of the 'manly' things? Acts of Service?

Keep it going - the good will between you will feed on itself.

In4Ride

In4Ride.....you are right about H's need to fix things. He doesn't have a problem coming up with projects that HE wants to do. But that is OK...either way I come out a winner because stuff is getting done.

I refinished a princess style chair this summer and was putting it together tonight while H was also in the garage working on the 4x4. Several time H came over and would suggest that I use a different tool and then go get me what he thought I should use. It was kind of cute.

We took several of S14's friends to the drive-in last night for a double feature. The boys had a great time in the back of the pickup or on lawn chairs while H and I were comfortable in the car. It was such an enjoyable evening with H with no tension and a lot of laughter and sharing.

We worked cows today and had a pleasant trip both there and back until we were almost homr and H had to get something out of the glovebox. My heart just sank when a garage door opener fell out.....I assume it is to the garage at his new place. I just picked it up and put it back without saying a word.

H had only asked to stay through last night but is still here. I am just going to go on like I have the last several nights and not even remotely hint at what he is doing. Maybe he forgot he was moving out today???

I know that at times it is hard for me to believe that H actually has another place since we have been getting along so well.....

Hope everyone is having a wonderful weekend!!

Wishing

Wishing,

Don't mention to your H about his moving out date. COntinue what you are doing now. Enjoy a tention free environment with your H.

Like In4Ride's H, maybe your H is comfortable and not intending to leave at all. Act as if he is staying. Enjoy every day it comes.

I keep you in my prayer.

Raindeer

Hi Wishing,

Looking very good. Keep pretending that you haven't noticed that he was supposed to leave. I think it's huge that he's spending time with you. You know guys - when they don't want to be with someone, they're gone. I hope you remembered to compliment him on how knowledgeable he is about tools and marvel about how much he knows. Don't hesitate to bring it up again and thank him for helping you with the chair over the weekend.

Don't worry about his other place. Our rental apt has been empty for 8 mos now, and H hasn't even been over there to 'clean' in probably 4 mos. Strangely enough H asked this weekend if I had seen the Lazy Boy credit card statement (from his sofa bed purchase) - he was checking if it had been paid off. Well, I didn't bother to mention that I've never seen any of those statements - only the check carbons from his payments. I didn't even bother to ask about the brand new sofa bed sitting there in a newly renovated empty apt.

I just finished reading Dr. Laura's 'Woman Power' this weekend. I would recommend it as a compliment to dbing.

So your new goal is to make H so comfortable and happy with your company that he never wants to leave. You may be tempted, but don't do any 'temp checks'.

In4Ride

Raindeer, In4Ride....

How in the heck is one supposed to keep their sanity throughout this whole mess? On one hand, other than no physical touch, I cannot believe their is ANYTHING wrong with my M. Since the night H came back almost 2 weeks ago things between us have been wonderful.

Yet, now I find out that H has opened up a secret checking account and has put several hundred $ in it. (I knew he was hiding money!) It pisses me off because he already had it opened when he asked about us keeping our joint checking account and keeping the money and bills the same as normal. I HATE it when he is so deceitful!!!!!

I also found out why, when H took S14 to Bible camp a couple of weeks ago, that he didn't want me to ride along. The knot-head told our 14 year old son that we would probably be living in separate homes when he came back. Who in their right mind tells a 14 year old then drops them off at camp for a week to stew about it. S14 had no way of calling home or anything. I was absolutely LIVID when I found that out. No wonder S14 was acting strange when I picked him up after camp, and now that he sees H and I getting along so well he is even more confused....especially since not another word of us splitting has been said to him. The poor kid.....

H has given me the $ for a L and I have an appointment tomorrow. I am really not sure what to say. I have the D papers H had drawn up a year ago but does that count as being served?? I think H is very receptive to a separation but I am not sure I want to suggest a legal separation if/when H moves out. That would just make it more difficult to get back together (or easier to D later). However, I feel that to protect my interests I need to have H sign something that he cannot get rid of any of our assets. H is continuing to talk about going into partnership with his B. Right now H owns the whole company and I am afraid H could just give BIL half just to reduce the assets he would have to split.

This is all foreign territory to me. I don't want to rock the boat too much since things seem to be going OK now.

Wishing

Wishing,

It is no harm to talk to a L and ask for a legal advice. You don't need to act. Just receiving advice.

I went to a L when my W told me she is moving out and planned to live with the om. I have to protect myself and our kids' interest. I am very certain that the om has financial interest in my W's asset, his W told me. The om has much less financial resources than us. He is a typical of a person who just spend money and not bothering about the future, expect government to pay him pension.

My W is similar to your H, had opened few new accounts. Purposely arrange the correspondence address is her office. SO I don't have any clue about her financial situation. Is she planning to live with me until the kids finish school, and safe money on the side as she does not need to pay household expenses? I don't know her real intention.

But in Australia, the assets will be split equally. You can't hide if being ask to declare your assets. Why hiding then?

Raindeer

Wishing,

I know it's very difficult, but try not to get yourself too upset about the bank account. The first thing I did when I thought H was leaving was go to the bank and open up a separate checking account in my name alone, and put my next paycheck in it. It was a security thing for me even though I trust my H completely and he specifically said he was keeping all of our finances as they are. So your H opened an 'secret' account. Was it really a secret or do you think he was probably afraid to bring it up? It has a few hundred $'s in it - sounds like just a little safety net/access to ready cash. My H cashed in a $3K personal investment account a couple of months after the bomb and I saw the check. H didn't tell me that he did it for almost a month, while I totally stressed and came up with all kinds of scenarios in my head. So I'm wondering if it was really deceitful, or just a little hedge against the crisis.

The discussion with son is more difficult to handle, but maybe it was one of those MLC insensitive, don't know how to handle it type of things. S14 must know you're having problems - maybe H truly thought he was doing the right thing by telling S before it happened. Doesn't make him right, but he may have thought he should tell him face to face before he moved out. You know it may be a 'guy' thing.

You may be absolutely right to feel angry, but still take the time to think about how you want to handle it. Your H could just be clueless. This is an opportunity to show him that you can deal without getting crazy. A calm discussion about talking with S together in the future is certainly in order.

Try as hard as you can to keep the good will between you growing.

In4Ride

This has been a very strange week and I am not sure exactly what is happening. Since the D talk almost 3 weeks ago things have been decidedly different.

H,S14 and I left on Thurs. to take D18 to college which is 12 hours away and got home last night. H was very thoughtful, somewhat talkative and just plain a nice guy during the trip, so much like the guy I married.

Although H and I have had separate beds since the D talk, we did share a bed during the trip. I noticed on Thurs. night and Friday night that even though we only had a double bed that H seemed to take his half out of the middle. I also noticed that when we would touch that H would not move away, but almost seemed to enjoy the touching. Even during the day when we were sitting in orientation meetings, if our shoulders or legs would touch that he did not jerk away. At times he seemed to move so I would have to touch him.

Then, Sat.night we had a king bed and H once again took his share out of the middle. I woke up in the night and felt H kind of back into me in the "spooning style". (I could sure feel my love tank filling up!) Then, H started feeling me up. I knew we couldn't finish anything since S14 was in the bed next to us, but H's touch felt wonderful....expecially since it has been over 6 months with not touch at all.

We got home last night and I was not sure what to do about sleeping arrangements. I do NOT want to pressure H at all so didn't bring up where to sleep. So....I slept in one of the kid's rooms. (Since H and then has kind of come home I have let him sleep in our bed while I sleep elsewhere).

I started work (teaching) today and did not see H until after work. I called him on my way home to see if it was OK for me to stop by his office and get the plants for my classroom that I had kept at his office over the summer. H almost sounded tickled to hear from me and that I wanted to come to his office. (I have not been there since the D talk 3 weeks ago....H has been taking care of my plants).

Anyhow, H normally ignores me when I do the watering, but tonight he followed me around and was telling me about how he has watered the plants, and even is using water from the air-conditioner rather than tap water since he figured it was better for the plants. I made sure to tell him he did a good job.

I was originally going to take all of my plants, but I don't need them at school and they do look nice in the office so I left several of them. H seemed pleased with that (it also gives me an excuse to go back sometime

)

At one point I had taken some dead leaves off and H held out his hand to take them, and he seemed to purposely to make contact with me. That is so nice!!!

H left on business tonight but I noticed that he came home to pack before he left....and also to tell S14 and I goodbye. (Normally H packs in the morning and leaves right from work.

I sure hope that all of this signals that H is on his way back to our M...but it is also frightning because I don't know exactly what it means. Whatever it is, I like it!!

Wishing

Wishing,

Just enjoy the current situation. It is good for your R. Let your H comes out from his tunnel by himself.

I really hope that he has thought again and may be regretted about his decision about D few weeks back. My W did want to leave many times but reconsidered again. It is noty easy decision also.

Keep on your good DBing.

Raindeer

So much for wishful thinking.....

I really felt that H was trying to figure out how to move back together into our bedroom....but I guess I was wrong.

I woke up in the middle of the night and our bedroom light was still on (and H was not in there (I had been sleeping in another room). That scared me so I went looking and found him in the basement asleep in another room. I woke him.....and he said that he thougt I had gone to sleep in our bed (I haven't been there for 3 weeks now) so he went elsewhere.

I know....don't get the hopes up, but that is so hard after the way he was last weekend.

I wonder what happened.....when he left on a "business trip" on Monday night he was almost loving, but since he got back last night he has really turned cold. I didn't talk to him while he was gone....so I know it has nothing to do with anything I did.

I am back on the rollercoaster...

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I'm sorry you are feeling down. But, I was wondering as I was reading your posts - do you think H was looking for a sign from you that you welcomed his advances? Do you think maybe he was testing the waters and thinks you were not interested? Just a feeling I got as I read your account of the last few days.

Maybe he was 'hoping' that you were back in your bedroom? Could he be feeling a little rejected?

I may be way off base, but it's something to think about. Any ideas to check this possibility out? Maybe it's time to make his very favorite meal and make a little fuss over him. That is, make an overture, but one that won't make you worry too much if you're mistaken. Or just jump his bones if you're braver than I am. I mean, he did feel you up right? - well, turnabout is fair play.

In4Ride

Wishing,

I agree which what In4Ride suggested, maybe you sleep in the marital bedroom. Your H may decide to be back. DO some nice things for him. And watch his reaction. Maybe you'll find his positive button.

In my sitch I know I need to fill my W's love account at the moment. I can't take any withdrawal (R talk) until the account is in good balance. I don't mind to get hurt sometimes by my W as it is part of the process in our journey to heal.

Raindeer

Could it hurt to flirt a bit?

Kelli,

How about giving me some clues as to what you did to get H back? I have always felt that our H were alike in a lot of ways but I just chalked that up to the whole military experience. But, it was almost freaky when you mentioned that your H also spoke to son before you, and then did the whole renting apartment thing. Not to mention being very slow in making decisions.

Since H returned home 3 weeks ago I do seem to have a new sense of inner peace. I am sure it has something to do with H actually still being in our home but that is not all of it. For the couple days that H was moved out and I did not hear from him, I cried my eyes out but at the same time I felt a burden lifting from my heart.....and my heart still feels good. I think it was very much an acceptance that, no, I do not have a bit of control over H's actions, only my own.

Even though H has been home for 3 weeks now, I feel deep in my heart, that he will me moving out. And while that still hurts deeply I am not consumed with grief. As a matter of fact, I was in the garden this morning and H came out and said he was going to the office and to get a haircut and some other running around. Since he took the pickup I am 100% certain that the "other running around" is to move furniture into his trailer. And that is OK. H has to do what he has to do.

Things have been good between us the last few weeks, and if that is what I am left with, well, it is better than the tension.

See if you can believe this one. H called me in the middle of teaching class yesterday to say that he had stopped at a garage sale on his way to his trailer to check his mail. There was a Bowflex for sale and since he knew I had mentioned wanting one, he was wondering whether to buy it. I told H that I had wanted one and that S15 would probably really like it. H said he would not buy it unless it was something that I was going to use.....I told him I would so it was in our garage when I got home. How considerate and thoughtful was that???? And this from a guy who is planning on leaving????

And about the flirting....I have been working that in lately. I had worn a short skirt yesterday and still had it on when H came home. We were then out looking at the Bowflex and I was trying all the exercises...so of course the skirt got hiked quite high..

At one point I was trying the leg curls and H actually grabbed by ankles and was showing me where to put them. Things were great....but about that time SIL and a friend walked in....so it spoiled the mood. But yes, there has been some flirting going on on both sides and that has been nice.

There is just some stumbling block that H can't seem to get around and for the life of me I don't have a clue what it is.

Wishing

In4Ride,

I like the way you think, probably because you have some of the same thoughts I have.

I have been going over and over in my head what the "feeling up" incident in the motel meant....and to tell you the truth I can't figure it out. H had to be able to tell by my responses that I was very receptive, yet, when I tried to feel him he moved my hand away. That, in itself, shocked me.

My initital response to H not sleeping in our bed was because he thought I was there and didn't want to sleep with me. But, after reading responses to my post, I DO wonder if H didn't sleep there because he felt I didn't want him to sleep with me.

Once I woke him up that morning to see if everything was OK, and told him I had been sleeping in a different bed, then he made the bed he was in and went into the master bedroom. Since then, H has been going to bed about the same time I do, I am often times in our bedroom getting stuff for the next day when H is getting into bed. Even last night, H was standing in the door in his underwear as I was coming out of the bathroom. I don't know if those are clues that he is ready to share a bed again.....but I just don't feel that I can be the one to take the lead on this.

You are absolutely right about being scared. If I wasn't I would have jumped his bones a long time ago. As a matter of fact, I almost did jump him the morning before he told me he wanted a D. I even told him that as I was crying that night, but I was to emotional to have a clue what response he gave.

I will keep on the look out for hints....

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

Kelli and In4Ride may be able to give you a good advice how to approach your H. As a man I will be very happy if my W make a move on me. But I am the one who still want our M. I am not sure how your H thinks. WAS probably thinks similar. So my W does not want to show anything intimate to me, not even caring gesture. It makes me easier to let my W go, when it is time to make decision.

Raindeer

It is hard to do any initiating when H has told me several times in the past that he does not welcome my touch.

I had a pretty good weekend...fairly tension-free and relaxed. We even went to a football game to watch S15 in the marching band. That was a nice time and so was the joking around about my not liking to wear pants but it was cold so I didn't have a choice.

H asked how I felt about going to church on Sunday and I told him I was planning on it....and he just shook his head OK. I was dressed for church when I took H his coffee...and lo and behold H dressed in matching colors. That could have been a fluke, but he wore a pair of pants he seldom wears so I do think he took notice of what I was wearing. In the past one of our customs was to wear kind-of coordinating clothes to functions.

H, S15 and I went out for a nice breakfast after church, all 3 of us cleaned our cars in the afternoon, then H went to the office for a few hours. H was very late getting home for supper but I had held supper and we had an enjoyable meal. (I really am trying to not let the whole time we eat meals be a control issue).

When I got into bed there was this weird metal noice. H had just come upstairs so I asked him to check it out. It turned out that a screw had come out of the bedframe. H joked and told me to hold down the activities in the bed.

I just laughed and told him nothing had been going on.

As we were lifiting the bed up and moveing things around we were constantly touching arms and body parts....and I was in a lowcut short nighty so I know H got his eyes full. He was in a really good mood.....I was really hoping he would suggest I just sleep in our bed with him....but, instead, he fixed the bed.

However, our interactions were light and fun.....and I take that as progress!

H left early this morning so was up when I left. I wished him a good trip and he said several times that the plan was for him to be home Wed. night so he would see me then.

All in all it has been a good couple of days.

Wishing

Wishing,

Enjoy your nice time together. I understand your feeling after being rejected few times, it discourages you to initiate again. But a man feels love again being intimate, while woman makes love after feeling close. Maybe provoke your H some times with some flirting. Of course there is risk of being rejected. It could hurt you.

My W enjoys a full body massage I offered, but she did not like having sex afterward. I am discouraged to offer her again. Until the infatuation dies down, it seems that my W can't accept intimacy with me. Why can't my W make a decision. She can leave and live with the om. Or she can stay and work on our R. Why can't she see that staying without letting go the om will only prolong the misery of all parties involved?

Raindeer

H did not contact me or the kids the entire 3 days he was gone.

And, he came home acting very distant for a couple of days. So much for wishful thinking that we were drawing closer together.

I had a very uneasy day yesterday. H spent the entire day at home, but was in the garage for most of that. For several hours I would look out there, or poke my head to briefly talk to H, and all I could see was H sorting and cleaning. (Of course to me, that means that H is getting his stuff ready to move out). Come to find out, H had been searching for stuff to put up a light in the garage so that I would be able to see better when I work out on the BowFlex he got me last week.

I no more need another light out there than I need a hole in the head! Besides, I plan on moving it into the house when it starts to get colder out.

But, I didn't let H know any of that. He spent so much time putting the light up (rewiring, mounting supports.....) that I had nothing but good to say about it. H even moved the BowFlex to a different spot in the garage and then put a carpeted rug underneath it so it would me nicer for me. In different ways I tried my best to let H know how much I appreciated what he had done. I even made sure to take S15 out there to show him what his dad had done (after making sure H could hear the praises I was saying). Then, of course, I used it last night then came in and told him how nice it was to be able to see the directions I was reading, and how I felt the machine would really help me to build up my bad knee.

Our pastor called earlier in the week to see if we were still willing to set up for communion today. (Pastor was over the night H moved out, and then saw us in church together last week and was wondering what was up). I didn't commit until I had asked H, and H was willing, so we set stuff up last night. Then this morning we had to set more bread/juice out between services, then clean up after the last service. It was H and I doing it and things were very nice, relaxed and enjoyable. (I wish it would dawn on H that we work very well togother!)

Between services H had asked S15 and I if we wanted to go out for breakfast but son didn't want to,but I said I would like that. So, we ended up going home. We were all out of the car and almost in the house when H stopped and asked me if we should just leave son at home and he and I go out for breakfast....so we did. Unfortunately, the conversation wasn't the best....there was an undercurrent there, but it was still OK.

D22 is taking S15 back to her place for the night so it will be just H and I here. In a previous time, that would have been a wonderful, exciting time alone with just the two of us.

I guess I can only hope for that again!!

Wishing

Hi Wishng,

Guessing what your H is going to do or not does not help. It can only lower your PMA. I know it is easy to say but very difficult to do. I had the same problem. I try not to ask what my W is planning to do until Dec.

IMHO, your H is still at home, don't speculate what he is going to do. Just act as if he is at home and lives happily. Guessing about negativities does not help your PMA. I am myself also thinking that may be my W is planning to move in with the om after he was thrown out from their house by the om's W. I can't stop her anyway. When she wants to go then she will go. I don't see what I can do. Why bother thinking about it.

I notices yesterday that the love messages between my W and the om last year that I stored in my other unused cellphone has been erased by my W. She must be very embarrased to know that I knew.

Raindeer

Wishing,
It wasn't anything I did, it was H making the decision on his own. I still don't understand why, or what was the trigger. Learning how to be at peace with whatever he decides he needs to do is a big part of it. That got rid of a TON of the tension for me - I was creating it, not H, by trying to second-guess his actions and predict the future. I couldn't do either, and came to terms with that. I came to accept that I could cope on my own, and would be okay. Next, I went ahead and made some overtures - letting H know that I was open for him to return. Physical touch, kisses on the forehead as he sat at the bar. I remember one night when he did sleep in another room, I told him it was his bed, and his room, and I wasn't asking him to leave. You have to be ready for rejection, but someone has to make the first move.

Wishing,

Wow, H is really being considerate - I think you're really on a roll. You are in a good place, learning to let go of control - keep that going.

Don't stress too much about your H's moods. He probably still has a lot of conflicting thoughts banging around in his head. Probably having a hard time figuring out his own changing feelings. Or it may be a problem related to work or something totally unrelated to the R.

H and I spent many months in the situation you're in - it's a good thing. It's slow, but steady improvement. Your getting really great baby steps from H - it's easier to see from outside looking in. Just keep up your changes and let it continue to slowly get better each week.

In4Ride

Just checking in -- moral support!

Between having internet problems and my sitch going downhill I really haven't felt like posting much.

After having a tension-free several weeks, they returned big time last weekend. I have finally figured out what triggers the tensions.....when H is up front with me we get along well, but when he is hiding or plotting something, he becomes very cold and nasty.

Last weekend we were headed out of town at 7am and were running late. H and I were in the car and he asked if we could stop at a garage sale and look at a bedroom set. H already knew the address so he must have looked in the paper. H didn't say for sure what he wanted the set for and it was not one that I even wanted, but H seemed determined to get it, so we did. He didn't even make it clear to me where he wanted to put the bedroom set.

Then, last night H asked if we could get the bedroom set moved into the house. He then went up to our bedroom and started taking his stuff off the bookshelves so he could put the tall dresser there. That led to a R talk.

H told me he had got the furniture so he could take the dressers from his grandma that I was using and take them out to his place. What a slap in the face since those dressers were given to ME.

I told him I wouldn't help him if it meant he was now moving out for good. H told me that he wasn't leaving immediately but was just going to move a little bit out at a time. (I did notice that he had already moved some stuff out of his closet).

Basically I told him "no". I have had enough. If he is leaving, then LEAVE, now. Get it done and over with, but I was not going to watch him move out a little bit at a time.

However, it was crappy timing since I am in the middle of a heavy workload at school, our daughters are now off to college so I don't have their support, and S15 is struggling in school, and this wasn't going to help matters.

I then asked what was up during the trip when we took D18 to college. H was touching me during the day, and snuggling and feeling me at night. I told H that him moving back home after only being gone for 2 days, then asking to stay longer, not moving out, and then touching me during the trip, on top of the tension being gone, well, that had given me some hope. H said he was sorry for leading me on, but it meant nothing to him.

I did tell him that I felt it was more of the control monster coming out and I was tired of being controlled. For a change I told H what I wanted.....I either wanted him to move out NOW, or stay and try marriage counseling until Christmas. (I also said that I would like to have sex again before I forget what it is like). After several minutes of silence H said that what he wanted was to go downstairs, get a drink and watch a late show....so we did.

I still have no idea what is going on, but I am at point that I NEED to know. Those 2 days he was gone in Aug. were pure hell and at that time I was ready for it be done with. But when H came back home, and things seemed to be going well, I guess I took hope in that. To have it crushed again is just pure torture.

Wishing

Hi Wishing,

I understand fully what you are going through. I wish your H can make a decision one way or another. It is a torture for your if he is moving out slowly. I was in that situation before. I aske my W to move out ASAP once she has decided to move out and lives with the om. I am moving on with my life now.

Surprisingly I slept well in the last couple of days. No wake up during the night.

S is still very sad. That is what I worry the most. I am OK. Many friends called me and try to comfort me. Some of them came to my house yesterday. We talked and they pryed for me.

God has His own plan for me. Not the way I wished for. But maybe He has a better plan for me. Who knows?

Raindeer

Wishing, I think he's waiting for you to loose it and toss him out. That way he doesn't have to be the bad guy. This is probably not helping S in school much, with how quickly you can be preoccupied.
I was just as dumbfounded about why my H decided to stay and you are about your h's lack of direction. That is probably the most difficult part - you cannot start healing anything, not your heart and not your marriage.
I often think of you.

I fully expected H to be out of the house on Sunday. Instead, he asked if I would go to Menards with him and pick out new faucets for the kitchen and upstair's bathroom sinks. But first he went to the office for a couple of hours, then we watched the Notre Dame football game, then got the faucets, ate supper together and then put the faucets in. It was almost bedtime when we were done. All in all it was a nice day between us.

H continues to the little things for me and I really have a hard time understanding that. H is making sure the cars are OK, buying me a Bowflex, adding a light in the garage, putting in new faucets, unloading the dishwashe, drying dishes, helping with the bunnies, fixing me snacks at night.... I just don't understand. If he wants out so bad the door is open; this indecision is killing me.

Last night we went to a swim-team parent's meeting where H was running for a position on the board. I had told him during our talk Sat. night that he might want to have second thoughts about running since it was a 2 year committment, and if we end up D, then I was planning on moving. (I have made my intent to move with S15 very clear to H over the last 32 months). H was elected last night but I am not sure he was too happy about it.

The boxes H packed from his dresser are still in his closet but I fully expect him to move out shortly. I do wish he would get it done and over with. This whole ordeal has been 32 months for me now and frankly, I am tired of it.

I am not quite at a point where I am ready to actually tell H to get out, but I see that coming if he doesn't make the move first. I guess I am ready to start the healing process but am not ready to do the actually filing. Besides, I don't want to make H angry since he is still very agreeable to giving me a decent financial settlement and, unfortunately, I am very dependent on that.

Most days I do OK with the current sitch but am getting weary.

Wishing

Wishing,

This is the roller coaster ride - if you want to keep dbing this is what you have to keep dealing with. I may be totally wrong, but I still say that you've got a good shot.

You know if you ask for a direct answer, it's going to be negative so don't dwell on what he says (you know - don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see). I really don't believe your H has made up his mind about the R or even moving out. The door has been open for a long while now and he hasn't left. This is so similar to my own sitch that it's making my stomach churn. If you still want to save the M, don't ask him to leave, don't issue any ultimatums - the decision has to ALL his.

I think my H was also sure I would kick him out, but I was not going to do it no matter how hard it was. My H also went through the furniture thing, spending months buying a sofa bed, renovating apt, and doing so and talking about it in front of me. Even now it's very hard to believe that he could do all of that and then not leave.

But I believe the only reason is that I made it very easy for him to stay. I didn't comment on the furniture, renovation progress, the lack of rent money, time spent away from me, time spent with me, etc. I made sure he felt absolutely no pressure to make a move or explain anything. I just did my best to make myself someone with whom anyone would want to spend more time, and went out of my way to show him I did admire and appreciate him.

Don't give up unless you want to. You're still in a good place and can get back on track. His indecision is your best friend, remember that and use it to your advantage. What is your H looking for in an R - what's been missing that you can provide or what's going on you should leave behind??

I find it incredibly interesting that your H's response to your demand that H either move out now or go to counseling, H says he'd like to have a drink and watch the late show!? That says to me that he doesn't have a clue as to what he really wants, but he certainly still likes to be around you.

Which brings me to my response to your visit on my thread and what may be a useful exercise. Do you think we might develop a code book for these guys? At the very least I've learned that anything other than an outright agreement means a no.

Maybe
I'll think about it
We'll see
Etc
= NO, and don't try and make me.

I think we should... = I really, really want this and I want you to just agree.

Vacuuming = I'm doing something to help and I want credit for it, even though I'm leaving the vacuum out in the middle of the floor.

There are others but I can't think of them right now. I'm sure there are some you can add. For your H,

Watching the late show = I don't know WTF I'm doing and I don't want to think about it right now, but please don't give up on me yet.

What do you think?
In4Ride

HI Wishing,

You are the one who knows whether it is better to wait and give him ultimatum. As long as you think you can accept the situation, don't force him out. But if you feel enough is enough, you can take a strong stand. That decision can only be made by you.

I am over now. Still trying to heal on my own. M

Raindeer