LostLove ... Here's my 2 cents ...

Wow LL!!

Maybe that's what I need to do around here, bit more seduction. Men love to be knights in shining armour when they can too, I am sure that is part of it. You are a pretty strong woman LL, I reckon our men like it sometimes when they feel needed. It would have been obvious without you having to say it that to let someone with an eye problem drive all the way to Boston and back on their own would be less than chivalrous. So cool things turned out the way they did and you managed to make it into a date! That's what I call taking opportunities where you can find them. Good on you.

take care

Fran

I LIKE It!

Shiny

LL...sounds like things are "heatin" up at your house!!!

It is so neat that h wanted to drive you to Dr...that is a positive step. I know you struggle with your feelings from time to time...and I am sure that is normal..and ok to question if it is all for real.You have learned how to handle them as you go along for the next journey...

things are looking good from where I sit!! Enjoy each new day

Sue

yes things are going better.

but here are some things I'd like to know...

though I may move beyond the a and the seperation and the almost tearing apart of our family...

how will I explain to dd why her baby book isn't as filled in as son's? myself being the last of three children..I didn't even have a baby book..so I swore that all my children would..with son I was dedicated and wrote in it each month his little milestones or just some motherly banter...with dd I started to do the same despite the fact that I was tired and strained and depressed and knew something just wasn't right...her baby book stopped being filled in about the time I discovered ow...she was just three months old...her first year of life was a blur to me...though I was determined to take lots and lots of pics..I am saddened to look at them now for I am reminded of how daddy wasn't even living here for her first birthday.

I know there is the future to look toward and plenty more years of memories and pictures but the most precious time of my dd's life was stolen from her and I.

She of course was a happy little baby (though she kept me up at night) she was my strength and joy during my turmoil..what hell we went through.

here's another bit of my tunnel dwelling...as many of you may know my father cheated on my mother the final cause of their d was my mom's having enough when discovering yet another ow and his not being able to make the choice...I don't draw many similarities between my h and my dad but can't help but think "what if", in looking at pics of myself and having seen many pics of my mother when she was young..the resemblace is uncanny...not just looks but mostly expressions...am I destined to live the same life? I know I cannot dwell in such thoughts all I can do is tell myself I am my mothers daughter but I am not my mother..and though my h is a man and has made some of the same mistakes my father made he is not my father...our future is not related to THEIR pasts...of course other than to note that each my mom and dad have made the statement that the other just didn't love them.

So I suppose I should learn from their (and my) misfortune and realize that no matter what if there is love we cannot allow it to be masked by the hurt that comes with love.

if I am angry I need to let it be known that it is the act or words that anger me and not the person.

if I am hurt I need to let it be known that it is the action or the words that hurt me and not the person.

if there is love I need to let that love be known despite the hurt that comes with it.

all that may make sense to some of you and the rest should just understand that it is just another one of those LL moments.

here's a re-cap of today...

what h did that I didn't like...

while I was preparing to clean the kitchen floor h was taking son only outside thus putting dd into a little tiff...begrudginly h was convinced to take dd out.

h let son go off to neighbors by himself (there are kids there but they are a couple years older and up)

h finished working outside conveniently at 1pm and left son at neighbors.

h starts watching football promptly upon entering house with his walki talkie phone chirping every min talking to buddie. (I just shut the damn basement door as it was annoying)

h watched football from 1pm - 8pm and as far as I know is still watching though he did stop to eat dinner and then later to shower and put son to bed.

ok think that's enough of the grrrrr stuff...so what did h do that was nice (or ass kissing cause he knows he's being a turd)

send dd up with a soda for me at a random time.
said "I would have taken that up" when I picked up the empty plate from the sub I made him while he was watching football.

cleaned up the table and floor after breakfast

cleaned up the table and floor after dinner

folded his own laundry (well I wasn't about to do it this time as he again dumped a load of the kids stuff from the dryer on top without folding it...grrrr I hate when people do that fold it or leave it there damn it)

fixed the fire I started when I wasn't looking

ok so here's a neg linked to a positive...h has bad habbit of smoking all my ciggerettes when he runs out..I was going to go to the store and buy more but he said "with your eye? I'll go" so he's off to the store.

I suppose it's really not a big deal that h chooses to watch football and ignore us all day...and maybe if we didn't have little ones I'd join him (though I don't feel very welcome when he's got that damn walkie talkie going all the time...it screams to me...I don't need your company plus he didn't ask me to at all this time) but I do feel a tad resentful toward him when on his only day off he spends vertually none of it with son. While I was down stairs playing with the kids he refused to get off the couch and play with us despite the fact that son asked several times..just kept promising when mamma takes dd up to bed he'd play..I think that game lasted all of five min cuase by the time I got downstairs son was alone watching tv upstairs while h was back to watching football in the basement.

well he's back now so I better jet.

LL

A lot of wisdom here, LL:

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can't help but think "what if", in looking at pics of myself and having seen many pics of my mother when she was young..the resemblace is uncanny...not just looks but mostly expressions...am I destined to live the same life? I know I cannot dwell in such thoughts all I can do is tell myself I am my mothers daughter but I am not my mother..and though my h is a man and has made some of the same mistakes my father made he is not my father...our future is not related to THEIR pasts...

And NEVER forget it!

You have the great advantage of INSIGHT here, LL ...of KNOWING that is NOT the life you want nor will allow to happen. I sense much more strength, self-awareness, and genuine yearning in you...plus it IS a whole different era, isn't it?

Shiny

P.S. If it makes you feel any better, CJ got a lead on a possible job today and so has been buried in his laptop since I got up.

We didn't even share a meal today, which is unusual.

I was doing my laps around the house and asked if I could put some tunes on. (he wears an earphone and listens to his own tunes while he works). He glanced up and said...

"No offense, but I'm ignoring you".

And so it's gone for the rest of the night. A little more gruff than necessary, but preferable to passive aggression in my humble opinion.

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how will I explain to dd why her baby book isn't as filled in as son's? myself being the last of three children..I didn't even have a baby book..so I swore that all my children would..with son I was dedicated and wrote in it each month his little milestones or just some motherly banter...with dd I started to do the same despite the fact that I was tired and strained and depressed and knew something just wasn't right...her baby book stopped being filled in about the time I discovered ow...she was just three months old...her first year of life was a blur to me...though I was determined to take lots and lots of pics..I am saddened to look at them now for I am reminded of how daddy wasn't even living here for her first birthday.

Don't explain, just fill it in anyway. Make something up, she will never know. There are gaps in my DD's baby book too and that is what I plan to do. Far better that than have her think you didn't care.

Remember you are doing it for her, not for you. The pics make you sad but she won't know. I had a pic I treasured for ages of my mum and I nose to nose and smiling when I was about 2 years old. It wasn't until much later that I found out it wasn't me but my cousin. The point is I got a lot of pleasure from that picture even though it wasn't real so your DD can get a lot of pleasure from the baby book even if you make stuff up. Most of it will be pretty accurate anyway. You know the milestones roughly and you know how you felt/feel about her.

Like you say she was your strength and joy - you can put that bit in for starters!

take care

Fran

"I never felt that way about you"
"I just want son to be ok"
"I have to put my needs asside for my family"
"that's just the way I am"
"I love you, I'm not in love with you"
"why do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you"
"when you know your h is in love with someone else"
"we all just married the wrong people"

and many more that pop back up when h just drifts into his own little world.

LL

point is this that even at best this r is as it always has been only good when it's convenient to h.

I'm sorry but I cannot look at the positives as they were there all along...yes even when h was not living here and outwardly proffesing his love to ow enough to make her leave her h. he was still taking care of the yard and doing dishes.

I will not take responsibilty for the breakdown of this m as there really wasn't much of a m to begin with..the r dies long before marriage if it ever was at all.

I am not happy and only trying to look and search for reasons to think I'm happy with this r. I am not probably never was and never will be.

H well who knows what he wants and honestly at this point I'm about through trying to keep the peace and bite my tounge.

LL

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"I never felt that way about you"
"I just want son to be ok"
"I have to put my needs asside for my family"
"that's just the way I am"
"I love you, I'm not in love with you"
"why do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you"
"when you know your h is in love with someone else"
"we all just married the wrong people"

and many more that pop back up when h just drifts into his own little world.

LL

Did h say all of those? Or are some of them from ow?

I know what it feels like to have the words come back....it's hard for me to discount what was SAID (particularly since words are so meaningful to me)...but what if you tried to counteract these statements with DATA (I know...more work for you!)...what if you asked h for HELP on this? (BTW -- if you did decide to do that...M&V will tell you not to do that when either of you is on the downward slope...do it when you're both feeling good)

Sage

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Did h say all of those? Or are some of them from ow?

I know what it feels like to have the words come back....it's hard for me to discount what was SAID (particularly since words are so meaningful to me)...but what if you tried to counteract these statements with DATA (I know...more work for you!)...what if you asked h for HELP on this? (BTW -- if you did decide to do that...M&V will tell you not to do that when either of you is on the downward slope...do it when you're both feeling good)

Sage

was having myself a little pity party ...

yes some of these things were said by ow so should I really hold onto them?? nope!

as far as the stuff that h said...we did talk about them and more way back when he first started to come around...

"I asked for a d and said a lot of things"

"well did you mean all of them"

"at the time yes and no"

so most of the things have been hashed out already...it's just me and my own damn insecurities...and well ya sure when I'm tired and crabby and feeling like I'm the one doing it all around here (not discounting the stuff that h does do but man I feel like I hold the motherload...hey gee perhaps that's the issue..h is a sexist bastard by nature and assumes it's all my responsibility and if he does anything however minimal it deserves a party, ok I'll stop that crap now)

do I believe h wants to be here with me and the kids? yes, but I'm not so sure he always remembers what he learned about actually being there is more important than paying the bills and making the yard look nice.

do I believe that h wants to be with me? this one I'm not so sure about anymore.

do I believe it would matter to h if I were to leave? ok well other than the fact that he'd have to find someone else to cook and clean and take care of the kids??? not so sure it would matter.

guess I'm just feeling bad for myself right now and not being forgiving.

I am still very mad and hurt by what h did. honestly I don't think he had any justification what so ever for lying to me, cheating on me, leaving me, emotionally abusing me etc. and I don't always feel like he is doing anything to make up for it...ok not make up for it but give me reason to stay? feel like I'm the one trying to make him stay when honestly I know that life was a bit easier while he was gone...at least then I knew he'd be "on duty" when he visited and I could leave without him giving me an attitude and needing more time to settle in.

I just see us walking a very shaky path...don't know what he thinks cause he doesn't have much to say about it and seems perfectly content moving in this direction.

guess I just want back the guy who first came home.

LL

question ll - because i don't know your prior history all that well, but are your parents still together?

bear with me, i have a reason for asking this

kitti

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question ll - because i don't know your prior history all that well, but are your parents still together?

bear with me, i have a reason for asking this

kitti

nope! a year or so before I was married mom caught dad with the final ow...back and forth...dad move out..dad move in..dad move out...dad move in..LL get's call in middle of night from brother to come put mom back together again as her and dad went at it again (dad not getting rid of ow) and bro couldn't deal with her crying...eventually mom had enough and filed for d...all dad had to do was choose ow or mom...he tried to choose both but mom had enough of the 30 years of that crap and said see ya. their d was final shortly after my wedding. THEY still have issues over it to boot. dad making advances at mom...mom still in love with him etc.

why you ask?

LL

before i go into my theory (doing lots of self examination these days) let me ask you this

you say it was crap for thirty years, then truly you must have felt this in your growing up.

was/is your mom a very strong individual? when i say strong i mean almost in a women's lib sort of way. not that she would have been part of the burning bra's era, but that she could do anything on her own, that she didn't need a man? when you look back on this, was your mom a typcial housewife (stay at home) or did she have a career or what?

kitti

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was/is your mom a very strong individual? when i say strong i mean almost in a women's lib sort of way. not that she would have been part of the burning bra's era, but that she could do anything on her own, that she didn't need a man? when you look back on this, was your mom a typcial housewife (stay at home) or did she have a career or what?

you are talking to a latch key kid!
I assume that at some point mom was home with us (I'm the youngest of three) but I don't remember it at all.

from what I remember mom always had her own life and we were just in it.

dad and mom did spend their time together playing cards and stuff going to functions or out with friends as well as each having their own time but dad had a little trouble staying away from the women and that is the crap that I refer to.

mom was strong yes, she had to be...she had no childhood...her dad split too leaving her and her mom with a newborn son (mom was 10 when uncle was born) so mom was a mom when she should have been a kid. she wanted me to be independant...suppose that's why she wasn't overly mothering cept for having awesome meals everynight of the week.
LL

thing is this...

I look at my parents m and don't want it...of course it ended so what's to want about it?

I look at h's parents m and though they are still together I don't want anything like their m either.

thing is I don't have any examples of the happy medium and I don't think h does either.

so how to know, where to go, what to do...how to find that happy medium and is h even willing or is this as good as it gets?

LL

ok ll - this is gonna sound choppy, but i want to get it out while it's in my head, but it's not all that coherent, so maybe you and i can work thru this together, if you wouldn't mind ok?

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you are talking to a latch key kid!

yup, ok, this is making far more sense to me. so was i, but my mom and dad got divorced when i was three so i didn't know any father. i joke around to this day that i wasn't raised by my mom cause she had her own life and i lived alot of time with my sister (15 years my senior)

you see ll, whenever i read your threads, i feel so in tune to what you are saying - the whole business of feeling taken advantage of, feeling like i am doing all the work, husband not living up to expectations

i am starting to believe that because of my upbringing i feel this way. i thought for the longest time that since my two step sons weren't mine that was the reason i felt that my home life was such a chore, that i was just living for the benefit of those boys and my husband, they didn't lift a finger to help with anything and it always lead to fights and the feeling to me that my husband was inadequate

but i realized that i still felt that way after my own daughter was born. i remember being on im with a girlfriend of mine crying my eyes out one day when my daughter was about 3 months old that i can't get anything done and husband was not helping, like it wasn't even his kid too, and i resented it so much cause he said with his first wife he always took care of his boys.

do you think ll, that because we were brought up in a dysfunctional (for lack of a better word) home that we are perpetuating that feeling into our own marriages? i honestly don't know what your religious beliefs are, but mine are that god created man and woman for specific purposes which is not what is happening today. i do believe that man was to be the hard load outside "bring home the bacon" and the woman was to pretty much handle everything else. but that didn't leave the man out of family responsibilities as he was supposed to provide for the finanacial, and emotional and sprititual interests of his family (patriarch - think abraham)

i believe because of my upbringing that being a wife meant that i was being a "slave" and of course no one wants that feeling - and i let that spill over to my marriage especially when i ended up with someone with kids, and then of course with one of my own.

oh shoot, i don't know what i am trying to say exactly except that i know that i really didn't have a mom to show me what a mom was really supposed to be, and in actuality she didn't either because her mom died when my mom was 18 - and i think i might have short changed my marriage because of these resentments that were ingrained in me.

no woman should be a slave. - i heard that more than once from both my sister and my mother

help me ll, do you understand where i am going with this?

kitti

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thing is I don't have any examples of the happy medium and I don't think h does either

i didn't see this until i was thru posting my reply above, but this about sums it up

kitti

I look at the women in h's family (well not all of them but most) and all I see are subserviant slaves who think their men are just ignorant work horses sure they love them but doesn't seem like they think much of them...feed them...clean their house and let them watch their sports and you'll be taken care of financially? wtf kind of m is that? am I missing something? or am I just seeing it wrong?

in my family...sure the women are domestic..they cook and clean and care for children but a lot more is shared...financial responsibilty is shared, child care is shared, the house and up keep of it (though ok most still falls on the woman) is shared, they are friends and laugh and have fun together..not the men in one room and the women in the other?

maybe I just married into the wrong ethnicity?
I don't want to treat my h like an ignorant dufus just worthy of paying the bills and being the big bad diciplinarian to the kids...I know h can be and when he pushes himself to do it is an awesome daddy and is happier with himself when he puts in that effort.

see h's family is all about show...look right, clean your house till it's almost sterile...home cook everything...keep up the apperance...send daughters to dance class and sons to play sports...a little boy playing with a doll?? eee gats? a little girl playing with a power ranger? better make sure it's a pink one. don't use your left hand...aaaarrrrggggg! what freakin time warp are you stuck in???

any way....h is and is not like his family...that is what is so difficult for me. at times he is that stale stuffy pretentous poop that I hate...but other times the lights are on and wow he can amaze me.

I guess I spent to much time before our wedding letting the future in-laws fill my head with how I was suppose to be..cooking in the kitchen all the time etc...now don't get me wrong I love to cook and take care of my house...but don't tell me I have to. and h doesn't he'd be happy with pizza every night of the week.

ok now I'm just ranting but I think you can get an idea of where I might be going?

LL

yes

i see definitely. i see that both of us were brought up with less then good examples of what family life is supposed to be, and unfortunately we married men with different viewpoints then us

so the question is ll, what do we do about it? knowing that we cannot control what our spouses do and knowing that we cannot change them, what is left? either we go out and find that perfect person (oh yeah, like that exists) and leave our unhappiness behind, or we change ourselves

what is the lesser of the two evils?

damn this is hard aint it?

kitti

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yes

i see definitely. i see that both of us were brought up with less then good examples of what family life is supposed to be, and unfortunately we married men with different viewpoints then us

so the question is ll, what do we do about it? knowing that we cannot control what our spouses do and knowing that we cannot change them, what is left? either we go out and find that perfect person (oh yeah, like that exists) and leave our unhappiness behind, or we change ourselves

what is the lesser of the two evils?

damn this is hard aint it?

kitti

well I suppose we can just do our best to be our best and let our h's be who and what they are..and hope that someday they realize some things just as we have and hope they don't beat themselves up too much when/if that happens.

in other words if I don't want to live up to some standard I hold in my mind of what h might think a w should be, then why should I have some standard in my mind as far as what h should be?

what troubles me most though is when h takes time for himself and doesn't always take time for the kids...I mean just becuase your tired doesn't mean you are exempt from your daddy duties...if the kids wanna play you play damn it! oh yeah I guess that's just the way I see it...so then back to if the kids want to play mommy will play and hope that the kids don't grow up and think daddy's just an old poop! or that daddy finnally does figure out that part of the reason son doesn't listen to him is becuase he doesn't listen to son!

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in other words if I don't want to live up to some standard I hold in my mind of what h might think a w should be, then why should I have some standard in my mind as far as what h should be?

sorry, still gonna pick your brain here

what if we truly became the women that our husbands thought they wanted, would they in turn become the men we want? is that possible?

or would we go back to the old resentment cycle because they cannot change, or will not change?

because i didn't have a father ll, i know in my heart i don't want my daughter to not have a father, and i also know that i don't want her to have a step father. so knowing this as strongly as i do, is it worth it to me to become the kind of wife that he wants, and can i do it without resentment

i don't remember who it was on this board recently but they had said something about making oj every time, it was one of their husband's pet peeves, that the oj pitcher wasn't always filled. she always resented the fact that she had to make it, but then she realized it was an act of love to do it, and it changed her whole perspective (or something like that)

maybe i need to incorporate a few more things like that in my marriage, and then maybe, hey, this might work eh?

kitti

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what if we truly became the women that our husbands thought they wanted, would they in turn become the men we want? is that possible?

or would we go back to the old resentment cycle because they cannot change, or will not change?

thing is for my kitti, when I was busy trying to be the w I thought h wanted it wasn't after all what HE wanted it was what his family projected. so for me to be the w I think he wants (h doesn't complain about anything I do or don't do cept for maybe complaining about him doing or not doing something) is a bit more difficult as it involves biting my tounge when he's just being him even if that has an indirect effect on me and the kids.

LL

what pisses me off the most though is that I am the one who wakes up to dd crying at 5 am while h stays in bed...sure eventually he gets up and goes to work...but I am still here listening to tears and sibling fights and not having much more than a couple min to breath on my own before I'm found and hear mamma this or mamma that..I don't get a damn lunch break etc....

so h leaves the house and actually brings home the money but while he's at work he has time to go out and grab a bite to eat and take a break...he doesn't have to answer the phone if he doesn't want to he can do things on his time etc...and when he comes home he get's to relax and take a break???? what about me? where's my break or is that just the tough luck of being the one without the penis?
can you believe that h sat and watched football all day on sunday...after "his" team's game was over, dinner had been ready and waiting for a 1/2 hr cause the game went into over time...he actually came up and said give me a few to unwind??? wtf were you doing sprawled out on the couch?? thought that was unwinding..ok I'll continue to entertain and cook and fold laundry and you go unwind...wtf??

LL

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ya know KAW it's just not right that you go and start a thread to keep me here and then dissapear yourself!

He! he! he!

Naw, I really haven't disappeared ... just with the resturcturing at work, I don't have much more time than to make a post or two a day for now ... so why waste them on my thread.

Not much there to update anyway, but I'm doing OK.

Now as far as catching up on this thread, I see I'm goin have to print it out tonight and read it after CAW goes to sleep ... then check in with you in the mornin'

'til then ...
KAW

Hi Gals,

Not trying to butt in, but I think LL hit on a little red herring a few posts ago. Unfortunately, I think it�s a red herring that becomes a kinda self fulfilling thing.

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thing is this...

I look at my parents m and don't want it...of course it ended so what's to want about it?

I look at h's parents m and though they are still together I don't want anything like their m either.

thing is I don't have any examples of the happy medium and I don't think h does either.

so how to know, where to go, what to do...how to find that happy medium and is h even willing or is this as good as it gets?

LL

FWIW, I don�t think you need a model. If a person (or couple) want to build their own model, then why not? One doesn�t have to have their parents� M. Nor do they have to have their spouse�s parents� M.

The unfortunate part is (as you�ve been exploring in the rest of the posts), that in order to build your own model, you need to cooperate, and dare I say it, negotiate.

Is that a possibility for you? As everyone says, you cannot change your spouse, but you can ask them to change themselves.

I know you�ve done this before, and the results were less than impressive. I�m in the same boat, and I can certainly tell you that at this point in time, there�s no possibility of negotiation for me.

But if you step back and take a look at things from time to time, you may find that things have changed (or could change). If your spouse is caught up in the �I can�t help it� I don�t have any other model to follow� attitude, then you�re kinda stuck.

LL... I think your H hasn't seriously thought about how restrictive your lifestyle is. But do you honestly believe that he can come and go as he pleases?

I know that I've given more lip service than actual thought about the limitations on my W's days. But at the same time, she has refused to cut me any slack either.

Dunno. Just some food for thought.

All I can say is "Spongebob" Have you see the one where Spongebog and Patrick find the little clam shell and adopt it? It's everything you just described....lol....

I hear you sister, men...you can't live with'em and you can't live with'em...

Cathy

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All I can say is "Spongebob" Have you see the one where Spongebog and Patrick find the little clam shell and adopt it? It's everything you just described....lol....

I hear you sister, men...you can't live with'em and you can't live with'em...

Cathy

ya that one cracked me up..especially how patrick kept saying I'll give you a break tommorow...ok tommorow...ok the next tommorow...until finally on his day off goes off to pty with the guys!

grrrr!

LL

ok, so I'll bust out my own damn 2x4 on myself.

LL,

you should be ashamed of yourself for once again trying to put the blame of your headache and your tiredness and your general discontent with your role on your h.

he IS trying...he DOES help out...he DOES do little things for you...and he DOESN'T have any EXPECTATIONS of you to be anything other than who you are!

just because you wake up (or get woken up) on the wrong side of the bed doesn't give you the right to start walking down a path of gee this is all h's fault. So your tired and feel frumpy...get off your but and get back to the gym and stop using the kids as an exuse...sure they're a lot of work and sure they do limit some of what you can do but hon you're smart and resourcefull and can figure out a way to make yourself feel good about yourself for yourself.

Now stop the damn pitty party and pull those damn jeans off the hanger and start wearing them again (bomb time jeans that still fit but not to my liking) stop being frumpy and feeling bad for yourself it's getting you nowhere. get back to the place you were when h came home...not so he'll notice or change but so that you can feel good about yourself again...that's right girl you still got it stop trying to hide it...who cares if the rest of the mothers in town can't keep up with you. They'll like you better when your being you and if they don't well then it's their loss.

you're good enough (maybe even better)
you're smart enough (smarter than you think)
and gosh darn it people really do like you (even when you think they don't)

and for heavens sake instead of getting annoyed with h for falling asleep on the couch while you flip channels all night or read this bb..remember what you learned while he wasn't sleeping in the house...when you are tired..it's ok to just go to sleep...you aren't going to miss anything and you'll have much more energy during the day and perhaps you wont get so stressed out when the kids just want to be kids.

LL

LL --

You are awesome.

Sage

Quote:

LL --

You are awesome.

Sage

LL,
That was bar none, one of the BEST damn posts I've ever read.
Now that's 'self talk' worth listening too!!!
I'm going to follow YOUR lead here and post a good piece of my mind to myself over on my own thread!!

Good for you kiddo, good for you.
T2

Quote:

what pisses me off the most though is that I am the one who wakes up to dd crying at 5 am while h stays in bed...sure eventually he gets up and goes to work...but I am still here listening to tears and sibling fights and not having much more than a couple min to breath on my own before I'm found and hear mamma this or mamma that..I don't get a damn lunch break etc....

so h leaves the house and actually brings home the money but while he's at work he has time to go out and grab a bite to eat and take a break...he doesn't have to answer the phone if he doesn't want to he can do things on his time etc...and when he comes home he get's to relax and take a break???? what about me? where's my break or is that just the tough luck of being the one without the penis? 'fraid so
can you believe that h sat and watched football all day on sunday...after "his" team's game was over, dinner had been ready and waiting for a 1/2 hr cause the game went into over time...he actually came up and said give me a few to unwind??? wtf were you doing sprawled out on the couch?? thought that was unwinding..ok I'll continue to entertain and cook and fold laundry and you go unwind...wtf??

They DO NOT see it LL. I do not know even ONE mother who could not sing this along with you word-perfect.

I just LOVE your last post, that is brilliant LL. You go girl!

take care

Fran

LL and KAW and everyone:

Got to take a moment to let you know
that I am very thankful I know you.

You've all been wonderful friends and
companions on my quest-for-a-better-self.

Love yas, thinking of U today, sending
you heaping helpings of hugs from beside
the fireplace at my mom's.

You are rocks and i love rolling along with you.

Wishing you warmth -- and sandwiches and celery
and day-after-the-holiday pie,

Bridget
Love,

Bridget

the next month or so is going to be pretty tought for me (I assume)

though h has been back home for about a year now it was this time (somewhere between thanksgiving and christmas) of year that I got that dredded call that h would be later than expected (as if that were the real issue) because he had to take someone into boston, yup enter LL's knowledge of ow.

Now I know that this time of year is no different than any other time of year as far as h's ability to be off somewhere doing things or being with people he shouldn't be with...BUT this is the time of year when things start to slow down..the clean-ups for the most part are done and whatever construction jobs going on are being finnished up and if it's not snowing there would seem to be little for h to be doing? That is to say less field work, less likely hood of customers needing apointment to talk about having work done and all around less work being done therefore less paper work for h to do in the office...of course there is the end of the year clean up of the equipment and maintenance of the trucks to over see and the bringing out of the winter equip and putting away of the summer stuff..but when h is at work all day this time of year the questions start to ring.

I don't remember clearly what his schedule was last year as he wasn't fully living here yet...but I do remember just after ow disclosure h was suddenly home early and energetic (taking kids for a walk while I showered and got dinner together) from that point on til the snow started.

I don't know what to believe all the time about what's really going on...is ow really gone? suppose the only way I'd ever know for sure is to just have him followed but don't feel like waisting the money cause I really don't know what I'd do if I found she was.

so be forewarned for some up's and downs from over the next month...not the typical ones but some major fear driven crapola...you know the extra fun ones that you've all grown to love me for.

LL

The Moon will be in your sign for most of the weekend. This may cause you to feel a little sensitive, fragile, anxious and exposed. It will also, though, allow you to be much more creative, inventive, incisive and inspired. If you don't already have a busy schedule, involving plenty of opportunity to explore your imagination, find such a task and throw yourself into it. And whatever you do, avoid dwelling on emotions that seem, somehow, more powerful than they actually are.

spooky aint it! cainer cast for the weekend

Hi LL...actually the anniversary of OW's "entrance into MY life" is....tomorrow!!

So I hear ya.

Shiny

Quote:

Hi LL...actually the anniversary of OW's "entrance into MY life" is....tomorrow!!

So I hear ya.

Shiny

suppose they are just days and shouldn't be held onto and remebered...but they do mean something don't they?

aww heck I don't know what to do...but I know I don't like the icky feelings surrounding such anniversaries...perhaps we can just allow ourselves to feel the ick and then look at what that damn ick allowed us to gain?

LL

I'm not exactly sure when OW came into the picture here, and I wish I knew she were gone.

I have a confident feeling you will get a way figured out to deal with the ick and move past it!!!

LL..I just love to read your threads!You have a way to bring a smile to my face...I like the "ick"language..and how true....look at where it has gotten you and the rest of us...it has waken us up to many things that might have festered and festered.

Thanks for stopping by ..and for reminding me that I am stronger then I realize..and I will get past the ick...eventually!

Sue

can I just say that I hate sundays with a passion!!!
each week I foolishly look forward to sunday as that is h's day off...now it seems I'm looking forward to a sunday when he wakes at the crack of dawn and leaves to go to the game instead of waking up barely eating breakfast and then getting outside to keep himself busy until 1 when he starts watching football for the rest of the day and night.

why don't I get a day off??? why can I never just go and do what I want? why does life revolve around him?

what is the point of being married?

I think I'd like to be a single old lady...funny is that is the way I see my future anyway.

LL

LL....if you had a dog, you wouldn't spend time and energy wishing it would behave like a cat, would you? Your husband loves sports...he's a football fan, so he's going to behave like one. I know, mine is,too. Mine loves to watch sports of ALL kinds...so adapt.
Think of it this way, he could have an obsession with porn and want to watch porn all the time...or he could want to go to topless bars all the time...or he could want to chase hookers....etc.etc.etc. So, football is a lesser evil...LOL

You NEED to make time for yourself. Find a way to get some time off...you are responsible for your own happiness.

Don't ASSUME this is going to be a bad month or two. ASSUME it is going to be a wonderful, family holiday time. Do things to make it special this year...focus on positive...I know you can do it! Think of this year as a challenge...it's your challenge to make this the best holiday season ever....and you can!

alaskangal,

yes my h is a football fan and always will be..doesn't mean I have to like it what it does however seem to mean is that when son and the rest of us look forward to the day that he doesn't have to go into work and are constantly dissapointed when we realize that he intends to do nothing but watch football and talk on the damn phone all day is pretty annoying.

perhaps your children are grown and you have more flexability and therefore an easier time accepting this sports addiction...I however have two very young children and can't just go off and read a book or watch a show or cook dinner or fold the laundry or clean out a closet or go for a walk or go anywhere without tagging them along...

so yes it pisses me off to no end that h does as he damn well pleases around here while I am the friggen mother and slave to all.

I feel like a slave that has no right to her own life and it pisses me the [censored] off and I don't think there's any little happy pill you could subscribe that will change that.

now when the kids are both old enough to entertain themselves and not get into too much trouble while daddy parks his butt on the couch all day watching football and cussing on the phone with his buddie...I wont be here..I will take my time..I will come and go as I please..heck I might even take a nap..I might even lock the bathroom door.
or maybe the kids and I will go off and do something fun (right now fun ivolves too much whining and I do that all damn week)

I think maybe h should just go down to buddies on sundays and perhaps monday nights too..cause his presence here annoys the living crap out of me on these days.

LL

LL....You can not control him. You can only control yourself. I am going to probably anger you more...but get off your pity pot and go do something without him. Take the kids and go have some fun. Quit waiting for him to do something he isn't going to do...this is a cheeseless tunnel. Get out of it.

Hugs..Akgal....and you can be mad at me all you want, it's ok....I understand more than you think....I had to get over my aggravation and force myself to go out..and I don't drive so without H to take me out...it was hard, but I did it and do it...

the point is I am with them the other six days of the week...aren't I entitled to a day off???

or perhaps what annoys me most is that he is here on this day but isn't here...it's as if I'd rather he just not be here if he's not going to be here!

get it?

you can say whatever you want...it is not you who is going to make me mad it is h and his lack of consideration for the fact that he does have a wife and kids here.

so if I'm to take your suggestion that would mean that a better way to deal with the day would be to take two little kids off to spend the day somewhere else? and leave h to a quiet peacfull empty house to watch his football? ya that's sounds good.

LL

You may be surprised...he may wonder where you are going and you could let him know how much fun you had and all he is missing when you get back..cheerful and excited from a day out with your kids...

LL

Hey girl - i used to feel the same way - then I went back to work and now don't have those issues. I went back when kids were in school. I totally know where you are coming from.

I know you have probably covered this before, but have you actually sat down with H and told him exactly what you have told us here? In a loving way, of course (bite tongue if necessary). men are oblivious and you have to sometimes spell it out exactly for them. Explain to him that you may go crazy if things don't change?

sorry if stating the obvious...

Quote:

I know you have probably covered this before, but have you actually sat down with H and told him exactly what you have told us here? In a loving way, of course (bite tongue if necessary). men are oblivious and you have to sometimes spell it out exactly for them. Explain to him that you may go crazy if things don't change?

a yup!

big part of why I believe or r got to where it was, that and well perhaps the fact that we aren't as compatable as we can pretend to be.

h just doesn't get it.

just last night..in the am he told me he'd be home early from work..but didn't arive til 4...I let him know before he was home that I'd like to go out and start some christmas shopping since when I tried earlier in the day both kids fell asleep in the car not allowing me to go anywhere..then of course the whining just had me quit after they finally woke and we went to one store (and yes I do give the little one naps at home) it was finally just after 6 when I had cleaned up dinner and was getting ready to leave..when h said with a slight attitude..your going now? as if I was supposed to stay and put dd to bed first...wich of course was the way it was before she was born..if I wanted to go to the store at night I'd have to (or be asked to) put son to bed first.

that all changed after ow and seperation..I left him alone with the kids after about a month of his being gone and wanting a d...he learned then what my life is like and kept allowing me the free time when he did come home for a while..now it seems he's back to being the way he was.

I still wonder why I wasnt the one to leave..

keep in mind that I am venting negatives and if I wanted to I could force myself to see little positives...not as much as I'd like but hey what do you expect when your the type of girl who wants to watch hair and sing along but you married a guy who wants to watch football?

see the thing is h and I shared some life goals in common..both wanted to live a nice respectable life...family..home etc...but h is a bit more the strait and narrow...total conservative while I am a bit more..well the type that will go out at midnight to see the rocky horror picture show..like to sing kareokee and dance and meet all kinds of people and not judge first.

that is what makes life tough...

I am willing to go to football games and share h's pleasures but he's not as willing to share mine..

plus there's the issue of my desire for more of another type of pleasure than he is...

maybe if he were more interested in THAT things would be different

sorry LL, just don't know what to tell ya. other than get a sitter, tell H you are doing so, and stick to your guns and go out regardless. tell him to make room in the budget for it. perhaps if you did this, then make specific plans, and then tell H where you will be and what time if he would like to join you, maybe he would???

I'm sure you have thought of all of this, and it is just an endless cycle. I guess you have to be willing to stand the consequences if you issue an ultimatum. I am sure this is hard to do since you spent such a great amount of time DB'ing and so don't want to rock the boat now. Correct? Kinda like "be careful what you wish for?"

LL,

I FEEL for you!! I have distant memories of when H was living at home. I remember times of him doing nothing but watch TV and I would feel like if he can do it then so can I. It was hard to get things done when H was around doing nothing. I find myself much more productive and doing what I want and need to do when H is not around.

Anyway, why don't you tell H that you need some time away from the kids and ask him to come up with a day and time every week that you can have some LL time. This puts the ball in his court without being controlling.

nik

Quote:

Anyway, why don't you tell H that you need some time away from the kids and ask him to come up with a day and time every week that you can have some LL time. This puts the ball in his court without being controlling.

great idea nik...however...h couldn't even comit to one night a week for "us" time therefore it is doubtful that h would actually commit to making time for me to have alone time...his argument would be that I can go out any night I want...thing is I'm tired at the end of the day and my going out any night I want always seems to be on some condition of his...ie. put dd to bed first..let him spend an hour on the lawn first..let him get settled in first etc. during our seperation after I got tired of playing happy family I decided to take off as soon as he'd arive...I must say the first time I did that he freaked called my cell phone 5 times for no reason (no message left so therefore wasn't asking where are the diapers or binky or anything significant just freaking out being alone with HIS two babies)

and of course there are other replies I get from him like..what did you think it was going to be like having kids?

or then there's the promise of his slow time comming....but does it ever come? sure last winter was great..but will this one be the same? doubtful as he's no longer trying to woo his way back home.

I must say though that despite the fact that he did stay in the basement watching football from 1 on (he's still down there) he did allow the kids to be down there playing and didn't "yell" at them for being kids..and when dd was whining and wanting to hang on me and wipe snot all over me(she's got a cold and thinks I'm a giant tissue) he did try to get her to sit with him...but she wanted mamma..so I cooked with one hand while holding her in the other cause after all that is what mommas do can't begrudge him just because she wanted me.

what do I want?

some designated me time while the sun is still up.
a designated "date" night with h.
designated or more regular family time.
to know what h's schedule is other than that he works every day..I mean his telling me he'd be home early sat left me thinking he'd be home by 1 not 4.
and damn it I want my h to want me!! more often

LL,

My H jumps at the chance to watch the kids but is more hesitant to make time for just the 2 of us. I would give him a chance and try again asking.

Quote:

what do I want?

some designated me time while the sun is still up.
a designated "date" night with h.
designated or more regular family time.
to know what h's schedule is other than that he works every day..I mean his telling me he'd be home early sat left me thinking he'd be home by 1 not 4.
and damn it I want my h to want me!! more often

A few months ago when H and I had one of our R talks we both said that if H was to return it would have to be a 100% commitment, no running away again. Well, the other night when we had a R talk I told H that I thought we both needed to see what M would be like again. When he was ready that maybe we could do a "trial" no strings attatched. H would come home and we would take one day at a time. No demands and no expectations. No designated us times, etc...

Well you know what happened. A day or 2 later, H tells me that what I had said made sense and that he was feeling better and thinking that things might be back to normal by xmas.

I know my H does not like to plan things, he is very spontaneous and rules push him away.

My reason for telling you this is that I think what you want is valid for sure, I just think you need to approach it differently. Be spontaneous, don't assume, tell H you are doing xyz and does he want to join you....

nik

Quote:

My reason for telling you this is that I think what you want is valid for sure, I just think you need to approach it differently. Be spontaneous, don't assume, tell H you are doing xyz and does he want to join you....

95% of the time if he's given the choice he wont.

LL

Does this sound familiar?
know for me, putting myself in line and gettting that little voice out in the open has done me wonders.

our h's are home and yes we do still feel some residual effects of what they did...but for heavens sake if we ever want to feel better we've gotta get off our "pity party treadmills" (lol!) and get our butts in gear and start making ourselves happy and appreciate what we do have!

LL

You know what to do...so vent away and then get on with the business of making yourself happy.

Hugs..Akgal

Oh man, LL...I really feel for you! BEEN there and in some ways I still am.

I sure do remember the colic, being a snot rag, toys flushed down the toilet, whining, fighting, throwing up, and ALL of it. I remember being so sleep deprived at one point that I was practically halucinating, worn out from nursing and wondering if I would ever get more time to myself than 5 min. in the bathroom!

From what I've seen, but for the few stay-at-home dads....they just don't get it. Not even the best guys I know and it SUCKS!

The weird thing is how it all went by so fast and how much I miss it. It was the hardest job I ever did staying home with 2 kids (especially all those months on end alone when H was deployed). Now that I look back, it was also the sweetest time.

I don't know, LL. I would be very tempted to take the "I want list and post it up in your bedroom. I think I'd also be very tempted, in your shoes, to gently but irrevocably tell your H that he needs to take the kids every Saturday or whatever so you can have some time. Damit, Janet, you and I could get together & go see Rocky Horror Picture Show!

Then again...maybe I'm a bad influence and you shouldn't listen to me because I ain't the best DBer around, LOLOLOL!!

AGain, I'm with Tal on this one LL....only for once (and perhaps it's because I don't have human kids) I'd be even MORE bold.

It's Sat or Sun...you make plans...he parks it in front of the T.V....you get ready....park the kids on his knees...give him a kiss and say "I'm outta here, got some shopping/stuff to do"...BYE!!

Shiny

Quote:

park the kids on his knees...give him a kiss and say "I'm outta here, got some shopping/stuff to do"...BYE!!

I second that..Just Do It!

Cathy

LL,

I agree with Shiney, These are his kids also. As a man I work and do all of those things. I still have time for my D. When my W needs time for those kinds of things she just has to say hey I need to go and do this take care of our D.
So what I would do if I were you is you need to go shopping. Get ready plop the kids with there Dad say I will be back in 2 hrs and then just go. It is possible to watch football and take care of kids at the same time. I know I ahve done this.

I just think its time to start asking for what you need and then doing it.

Lee

the real issue is lack of passion!

If h were a bit more of a "man" and treated me a bit more like a "woman" I don't think I'd mind as much being the "woman" and taking care of the kids so that her "man" could relax a bit and enjoy his sports.

just doesn't seem right to me.

LL

ok so I pissed an moaned here about h and his football...actually I didn't keep it all in at home either...infact said to h last night that he should just go to wherever buddie is and bring a bag with him so he could watch mon night football with him.

of course h said not a word in reply...

h eventually fell asleep down there and I went up to bed myself..he woke early in the am (prob about 4:30) and left for work at 6am...

I was expecting him to hide out in the basement again watching football tonight but instead he had son ask me if I'd like to play cards with him tonight (why he didn't ask me directly is beyond me).

so ya, he is watching mon night football...but he's also playing cards with me...

why the heck am I here? cause he's taking a but break.

LL

Quote:

Great idea nik...however...h couldn't even commit to one night a week for "us" time therefore it is doubtful that h would actually commit to making time for me to have alone time...his argument would be that I can go out any night I want...thing is I'm tired at the end of the day and my going out any night I want always seems to be on some condition of his...ie. put dd to bed first.let him spend an hour on the lawn first..let him get settled in first etc. during our separation after I got tired of playing happy family I decided to take off as soon as he'd arrive...I must say the first time I did that he freaked called my cell phone 5 times for no reason (no message left so therefore wasn't asking where are the diapers or binky or anything significant just freaking out being alone with HIS two babies). My H is just like this, when we separated the first time he came home to put the kids to bed, I asked him something about it and he said �I can put my own kids to bed� all sarcastic, like he hadn�t been avoiding ever doing it for the past 4 years. He drives me nuts on a Sunday morning when I am finally supposed to be allowed to lay in bed a little. DD will cry to get up, he will lay there still sleeping (or pretending) while I go and get her. Then I will park her in front of TV with her bottle and come back to bed. Anyway without boring you with the details, it will take a full hour (at least) and him having to be allowed his coffee and his cigarette first before he will finally take over. After which I am wide awake and don�t want to lay in bed anymore. GRRRRR. You are right it is always first this, first that and we are left holding the fort until they are READY if you please

and of course there are other replies I get from him like..what did you think it was going to be like having kids? Did you ask him the same thing? For crying out loud. Your job IS 24/7 it makes my blood boil when they can�t see that.

or then there's the promise of his slow time coming....but does it ever come? sure last winter was great..but will this one be the same? doubtful as he's no longer trying to woo his way back home.

I must say though that despite the fact that he did stay in the basement watching football from 1 on (he's still down there) he did allow the kids to be down there playing and didn't "yell" at them for being kids..and when dd was whining and wanting to hang on me and wipe snot all over me(she's got a cold and thinks I'm a giant tissue) he did try to get her to sit with him...but she wanted mamma..so I cooked with one hand while holding her in the other cause after all that is what mommas do can't begrudge him just because she wanted me. No you can�t, but you can train them BOTH that dad is just as good. This has always been H�s excuse too and I just went through a period of dumping her with him and walking away anyway with him looking daggers at me and her crying before they would settle down and get on with it. Now she doesn�t mind anymore, and I think it makes him feel better that he is wanted just as much.

what do I want?

some designated me time while the sun is still up.
a designated "date" night with h.
designated or more regular family time.
to know what h's schedule is other than that he works every day..I mean his telling me he'd be home early sat left me thinking he'd be home by 1 not 4. When H says this to me I always say what do you mean by early and try and pin him down rather than guess.
and damn it I want my h to want me!! more often Here here! There is nothing wrong with this list LL it is all perfectly reasonable. Maybe you should write it up on a big sheet of paper and pin it to the bedroom wall. Then be nothing but sweet to your dear H and see if he can get it into his clueless head what HE needs to do to keep LL around - LOL

While I can totally chime in with your pity party LL I wonder what it is that is making H �hide� in his own home. My H has said something to me about not feeling welcome in his own house. Try and think about whether you have been falling off the DB wagon, I guess this is what has been happening with me and H and he is starting to act like he did before the bomb.

I think we need to still keep the DBing up but also be as clear and up front about what WE need as we can. Don't let the resentment spill over that is the trick. Lay it on the line when you have to but other than that be a happy little LL who is glad her man is home, otherwise he will be left wondering what he is doing home if all you do is whine and bitch (I know you don't LL, it's just their terms). If you are whining internally you know it WILL be coming across in attitude.

take care

Fran

Fran,

sometimes it's enough just to know that others feel the same way.

before all hell broke out two years ago I used to talk with a friend who is also a stay at home mom...

We of course would piss and moan about this or that and in the end I would usually end up trying to see things from the h's perspective...

ie. we resent (at times) their freedom...they go off to work..spend time with adults..take lunch breaks...listen to whatever they want on the radio etc...

they (the h's) resent our staying home and not appreciating them for going off to work to support us.

anywho...

h actually let me help him out today.

whenever h gets busy or seems overwhelmed I always offer to help in anyway I can...

this morning he's stuck in traffic and his cell phone isn't working great..he's supposed to be somewhere but can't get there cause of traffic and can't call cause the phone isn't working great...I offered to call..he said that would be great.

that was huge!!

LL

LL,

I'm a few days late with this....but wanted to say thank you for checking in on me last week. You guys were great to me during my "down time". I feel like I kinda lost track of you over the past several months, but I do peep in sometimes to see if you are okay. You were so helpful to me during my first months here on the bb, and offered me so much hope. You were also the one who taught me how to catch a monkee.

Thank you!

Take care!

MAL

LL,

My boss where I used to work said she really felt for her H when he got laid off and she realised she was the only one bringing home the bucks. She suddenly understood where he'd been coming from when she'd been at home with the kids and he was the sole breadwinner. You know the huge weight of responsibility, the need to go the extra mile all the time and make sure you don't lose the job/contract the feeling you've got people depending on you. So I know what you mean about trying to see it from their perspective. Just wish they'd spend a little more time trying to see it from ours

Fran

Quote:

Just wish they'd spend a little more time trying to see it from ours

but life is all about them don't you know that?

just feeling crappy...feeling ick...feeling like I don't know what the heck the point of any of this is anymore...feeling like we're drifting...feeling like we're just going through the motions..feeling like if we could just stop we both would and would breath a little esier and say goodbye...but can't and therefore try to make it liveable.

I don't know...just know that I don't feel much better about things then I did before all this happend...only difference is I've become more complaciant about a lot of things and do less "complaining" and "trying" to make things better.

I dunno...just wish I felt better about this m...don't know that I ever did feel right about it and now wonder with this scar, will I ever?

Sure I can rember a time when I thought h and I were a great couple but that was a long long long long long time ago (it had started to drift long before we married)...don't know that we'll ever fully get back there again...think there's too much damage done...to much mistrust..two completely seperate lives and I don't know if we are really growing closer or just learning to leave eachother alone.

ya know it would be nice if that guy who started this thread would return to it...I feel like a squatter

I feel this way myself sometimes LL.

(((((((((((LL))))))))))

Shiny

Quote:

I feel this way myself sometimes LL.

(((((((((((LL))))))))))

Shiny

so then what?

LL

how dbing worked to bring my h home...

I got happy and got a life...lived my life and h suddenly realized that he was going to an empty little basement apartment after work all by himself (doubt his ow's husband would let her spend too much time there) or comming here three nights a week and watching me walk out the door with a smile to go who knows where and enjoy my life.

h realized that I would be getting the better end of the stick...him comming here three nights a week so I could be free to go where ever and do whatever...him comming here three nights a week to take care of his own kids and then on the other free nights must have realized that he would have to spend that time with his ow and possibly her kids and then ultimately watch her die (her disease is supposedly terminal leaving her something like 7-15 years to live) him then to be left alone, looked upon with shame by his family and friends while I reap all the benifits of his work.

that and perhaps the ow wasn't putting out yet as she had only started to ask her h for a d toward the end.

I don't believe for one minute that h actually came home out of some love for me..unless of course you count his desire to make sure that the kids and I are well provided for financially as love.

I don't believe he came home because he wanted to make things better.

I don't believe db is for every r...some people just weren't meant to be together and all dbing does is give them a way to fake it for a while.

I wasn't happy with my m before all this but at least I felt safe...now I am still not happy and certainly don't feel safe.

I don't trust my h as far as I can throw him...he could stay home every day all day and I still wouldn't trust him so what is the point of trying to be in an intimate r with him????

there isn't.

LL

that said I wont be waisting anymore of your or my time posting about my sit anymore.

LL

Oh come on LL

...like we haven't heard that one before...don't you go anywhere girl...Cathy

{{{LL}}}}

Don't leave us! We are all here for you!! What better place to get all of your anger out!!!! THINGS will get better!! I'll pray for you!
nik

Quote:

that said I wont be waisting anymore of your or my time posting about my sit anymore.

LL

Allrighty Ms. LL....what's up with this???

Sage

LL, I can certainly understand how you feel. It's just one day after another trying to make this R work and then when and IF he does come home will I have to walk on eggshells again?
I've been big on trying to get him to come home, but I'm with you about the trust thing. I'm not sure I'll ever trust him again. Can I live with that? Well, so far I am, but I'm not sure in the long run if I can keep it all stuffed inside.
I'm working my tail off trying to get my H to feel for me what he used to feel. Do I have the power to do that?
I'm not sure. I think he'll either come around or he won't.
We are together all the time and he says ILY and we are intimant, but am I HAPPY? NO. I want it all.
I want more than my H can or will give me. There are things about him that I know will never change and I have to decide if I can live with them.
I want someone that cherishes me. What would that feel like?? It's been so long I've forgotten. Not forgotten enough to not want it though.
It must be venting day today. I'm in some kind of mood about all this.
I guess we all go through this at some time during this crazy process. The only sure thing in life is change and our H's changed on us in a big way. We are bound to change also as a result of it.
I'm not giving up on my marriage but I am questioning what I'm getting myself back into.
Do you think it's possible your doing the same? Rachael

Quote:

ya know it would be nice if that guy who started this thread would return to it...I feel like a squatter

So you're looking for more than my two cents worth, ehh!

Sorry I haven't been around much, but I have been keeping up when I can, and I have been thinking a bit about your quandary, but haven't been able to come up with a response that would make sense of my scattered ponderings, but let me give it a shot.

Your post this morning seems to re-affirm that the gist of your underlying frustrations come from the belief that you are now as close in the relationship as H will allow you to get. The current level of emotional intimacy has too much distance between you for you to be happy with accepting it.

LL, there is nothing wrong with that, but let me ask, what level of closeness can you accept to be content in M? Now, we all want to be greedy and want it all! ... but what if you don't get quite all the pieces? How much of it can be missing and you still can be happy?

Now I ask this because you have brought it up several times lately how you wish like him to revert back towards the way he was when he first came home. It wasn't perfect, but could you be happy substaining that level of the relationship?

Where I'm going with this ... I think ... not really sure, but please bear with me a moment

... is ... in his current frame of mind the D has been "busted". He's not going anywhere! ... and he probably believes in all the effort you worked at for the past year that you're not going anywhere too! So now there is nothing more that needs to be worked on.

He doesn't realize that if M is left to stagnate, it will deteriorate to a point where neither is happy anymore again.
In order to be a M where both are happy, both need to work at continuing to strengthen the bond between them.

At this stage, the two partners need to work together towards that common goal. I think you are going to have to approach him about working towards that in order to get there. You know he's capable. He did more of it last year. He stopped! Why? I think you're gonna have to let him know that in stopping he is endangering the health of the M!

Yes, you have tried to talk to him in the past only to be thwarted by his belief that "No matter what he does, its never good enough!" That's why I had ask those questions above. In order for it to work, you are going to need to remove this hurdle. Before approaching him, you have to be clear in your mind ... what is good enough. Lay it out as the "ground rules" of what will make you happy being married to him and he has the right to ask the same of you.

Spell out "What is good enough" without it being everything, so that if he does work towards those things, you can turn that this mornings post around to ... you do feel he is married to you because of you ... and you can accept it.

LL, take this for what its worth from a guy who is still dealing with a W that is still in runaway mode (atleast in her mind)

, but perhaps changing your perspective from you are no longer dbing to "bust" a divorce, but rather honing your dbing skills to build a stronger bond between the both of you and in order to do that you are going to have to tutor H some in how to do that and I tried to write some of this down in a way where you hopefully can pick out a few key phrases that he may be receptive to.

Quote:

that said I wont be waisting anymore of your or my time posting about my sit anymore.

Well, I hope I wasn't too late in trying to formulate my additional 2 cents .

'til later,
KAW

Quote:

Well, I hope I wasn't too late in trying to formulate my additional 2 cents .

'til later,
KAW

never too late...

however...h is a conflict avoider...doesn't confront...doesn't argue..doesn't solve..is content to just say "that's just the way they are" or "that's just the way I am" or "that's just the way it is"

that's a fine and dandy way to live if you want to live alone in a cave and only intereact with people on a basic level..but not if you actually want to have personal relationships with people where you discuss more than just football, weather and current events.

So then either the way I look at h as a conflict/intimacy avoider and nothing I do will ever change that OR I am a basket case and just can't get through to h.

there was a time when I started to just believe "that's just the way he is" as it seemed even his own family saw him that way....

BUT

how can it be so?

he did have some kind of intimate r with ow, I don't think a woman with a terminal illness would leave her husband and father of her two young boys for a man who wasn't intimate with her...after all her complaint of her h was that 1. he didn't love her and 2. he wasn't emotionally available.

ugh!

thanks to the rest of you for posting.
I'm just tired of it.

LL

LL,

You have said that before and if that is your choice, there's not a damn thing wrong with your thinking.

When I read your last post though, my thought were the same as I mentioned to you a while back. It seems to me you are accepting the fact that what you see is what you get. It will be up to you to make the change that you need. You may need to take a risk. It is telling that you said things started down this path before marriage. My guess is that you wondered whether or not you should have gone through with the marriage at that time. I heard that from my ex. So here you are. You go in circles when speaking about this stuff. And it always seems to come back to the fact that you really are unhappy in this marriage - with or without the trust issues. The choice is yours.

I am not sure what to do. I do have ideas (I do have ideas), but you have to get this guy to move and that means you will have to make the first move. You're young and if you just hang on, life will pass you by.

IMP

LL said:

Quote:

"that's just the way he is" as it seemed even his own family saw him that way....

BUT

how can it be so?

he did have some kind of intimate r with ow

Perhaps, it was the newness of it all. We get an initial surge of euphoria in a new relationship, then we tend to return to our equilibrium level. Obviously, when you were deciding to marry there was some heightened level of interest in you on the part of your H. I can remember meeting women with whom I clicked while married. I did get the inner excitement. I just never did anything to pursue it.

IMP

Quote:

.so he stayed away from her (other than keeping her as a customer)

oh but wait I forgot, no he didn't stay away from her...the first christmas we were married he went to her party (who invites the landscapers to their private holiday pty in their home?) and refused to bring me. ya I should have known then!

LL

LL,

What you say may be true, but then my ex told the counselor that she was never really madly in love with me or something to that effect. They were words. I did come across some stuff that she sent me while engaged. You know what, she was crazy about me. So who knows. Words can be idle. I don'ty know if that is the case with your sitch or not.

Quote:

ramble, ramble, ramble, bitch, bitch, bitch.....all I can do is talk and try and change, and do this or don't do this or do that or don't do that...point is the only way to get h's attention

but are you really getting any attention?

Quote:

I honestly don't even think I want a r anymore...how bout a friend...that would be nice.

I actually find that to be healthy. And also, it is best to define ourselves in regards to ourselves and not in regards to any relationship that we may have.

IMP

Quote:

..is content to just say "that's just the way they are" or "that's just the way I am" or "that's just the way it is"

... and that's how things got the way they were to the point that it almost fell apart forever!!!

The way he was when he came home is how he got to stay home in hopes that it won't return to the way things were.

How can there be two ways he is ? I don't buy that.
He has to understand that if he lowers the bar for himself, he is fostering the same ill results to reoccur again. Does he really want to relive that again?

Quote:

h is a conflict avoider...doesn't confront...doesn't argue..doesn't solve

which is why he can't be approached as you are on opposite sides on this. The approach needs to be that you are hoping he will team up with you to help nuture a good thing rather than letting it go sour. Being indiffrent doesn't work because people are emotional creatures and those emotions need to be attended with positive interaction to maintain positive emotions. Without constant nuturing, the postive emotions wither and die only to be replaced negative ones.

Now there will be times where our spouses will be incapacitated to the point where they cannot assist in maintain our positive emotional health and we need to be able to rely on our own strength for during those "draught" periods ... but to expect to live a lifetime with someone unwilling to assist in helping keep our emotional state positive is unrealistic and would for most unwanted.

Uh-oh ... looks like I managed to get some venting in on your thread ... or wait ... that's right ... I guess you're still considering this my thread?

'til later,
KAW

so how many of you are waiting for the part when LL comes back and gives herself a good whack with her own 2X4???

LL

LL,

Nothing beats good comedy! How many times have you hit yourself with that 2x4...I lost count!!!

IMP

LMAO...Cathy

Quote:

so how many of you are waiting for the part when LL comes back and gives herself a good whack with her own 2X4???

LL

WHERE is that "raising one's hand" icon????

Sage

LL,

Get out the 2x4!

I have seen similar posts from you. You still have the same situation that you did before the trip to the doctor's.

IMP

Quote:

LL,

Get out the 2x4!

I have seen similar posts from you. You still have the same situation that you did before the trip to the doctor's.

IMP

fine imp..

would you like me to say...

LL....your h is a selfish pig who has been screwing around on you since day one...you've just been too blind to see it...you got all wrapped up in his gentlemaness. You are nothing to him but a trophy and if not for the kids and the house he would never have come home. You think that he didn't want to take off his wedding band becuase it meant anything to him...well your wrong...he didn't want to take it off becuase it made him all the more attractive to the little hussies..then he could play the my wife just doesn't appreciate me card too.

or would you prefer I say...

LL, take a good look around...look at who h really is and stop comparing him to the rest of the creepy a$$holes in this world. What is it you're really looking for from him...thing is you don't even know...you say you want him to want you physically and then when he does you get pissy cause you think it's only because he's horny..do you not pay attention to what he does do for you? You blame him for your position and lack of free time...what do you do to ensure your time...heck if you can say "I have a meeting at x time" and can leave then why don't you either put your foot down and say I'm going here or there at x time and go..if he can't be there get a sitter to cover the gap..what's wrong with that? H is not the selfish one, you are...you want it all to be about you you you!

aw the hell with it...there's no point in explaining myself to anyone other than myself.

LL

Quote:

aw the hell with it...there's no point in explaining myself to anyone other than myself.

LL

well...that's not entirely true...

My response to IMP was gonna be:

So what? ya, LL vents here just like the rest of us...

I'd still prefer the viewpoint of:

My m has a TON of positive things going for it and some areas to work on

THAN

My m. is filled with negatives and there's a day or so of positives on occasion....

I FIRMLY believe your sitch is the FORMER....don't YOU?

Sage

Quote:

I'd still prefer the viewpoint of:

My m has a TON of positive things going for it and some areas to work on

THAN

My m. is filled with negatives and there's a day or so of positives on occasion....

I FIRMLY believe your sitch is the FORMER....don't YOU?

Sage

it is only when I sit back and stop looking for what it is I think I want and look at what I am getting that I realize I am getting what I want and the things that I'm not getting I can ask for and will be more likely to get if I am already looking at the r as positive and just looking for a little icing, instead of constantly acting like everything depends on what I think I want.

so, ya, I come here to piss and moan..and most of the time don't tell ya'll what happens five minutes later...I don't tell you that h is happy when he calls...I don't tell you when he calls I only tell you when he hasn't..I don't tell you all the good things he does do every day I only tell you what I think he isn't doing.

some people seem to want me to be negative and when I try to step back and see things as positive they want to point out to me that I really think it's negative. When I'm thinking negative there are people who like to keep me there.

H is a good man and that's all I have to say about that.

LL

Quote:

H is a good man and that's all I have to say about that

and personally, i think that is about all that needs to be said

ll, that is why this place is here, so we vent our anger here instead of at our mates. venting to our mates will not get us closer to our goals

i for one knew you would come back with positives. you always do. like all r's there is a cycle, you are not immune to it, i just think you are a bit more vocal than others

i for one don't expect you to be negative, i expect you to rant and then find the answers for yourself, you ALWAYS do

kitti

"looking at the r as positive and just looking for a little icing, instead of constantly acting like everything depends on what I think I want.

so, ya, I come here to piss and moan ..and most of the time don't tell ya'll what happens five minutes later. I don't tell you all the good things he does do every day I only tell you what I think he isn't doing.

H is a good man and that's all I have to say about that."

There still might be a little hope for you LL! Not for me though!

LL,

That was a very good response. I like a little fire in a person's belly. My point is that you still have decisions to make. Has your situation changed? What is your opinion? Are you going to forgive this man for straying? Can you be happy in this marriage?

I do understand that this is a roller coaster ride for you. And I have looked at your subsequent posts. Yes, you do bitch, moan, and complain. That's ok. But at some point you have to stop. Tell us about the positives.

Quote:

it is only when I sit back and stop looking for what it is I think I want and look at what I am getting that I realize I am getting what I want and the things that I'm not getting I can ask for and will be more likely to get if I am already looking at the r as positive and just looking for a little icing, instead of constantly acting like everything depends on what I think I want.

Thus I suggest that you read this book: "Excuse Me, Your Life is Waiting: The Astonishing Power of Feelings" by Lynn Grabhorn. The basic ideas of the text is that we get back what we give off. This might help you.

LL, I see your oscillations. So all I have to go on is what I have heard you say and what I have seen you write. And one of those things was that you didn't know if you wanted to be married to this man.

So, I will leave you with this question. Have you decided that you are going to be married to this man?

IMP

Quote:

LL,

That was a very good response. I like a little fire in a person's belly. something I usually have tons of! part of the problem My point is that you still have decisions to make. Has your situation changed? from yesterday? from last year? has he changed? have I changed? have we each changed? has neither of us actually changed cept for the way we look at things? What is your opinion? on what? Are you going to forgive this man for straying? see that's the hard part...forgive him for what? for having a secret friendship with this woman? for falling in love with this woman? for not realizing early enough his role in how things got to where they were? for feeling like he had to leave? sure those things I can forgive him for..it is when I start to loose faith in him and wonder if he's telling the whole truth about ow...was he screwing her 3x a week? for that no, I cannot forgive him...at an earlier point I may have but since he has (possibly) lied about it for so long and since that was one of the biggest things I was lacking in the r...I think the roof would come off the house if he changed his story on that now..but then again the truth is the truth and it is what I want and is in part what is keeping me from comletely forgiving him. I cannot just assume he's lying about it because that's not fair as it is possible that they never actually did anything but it also doesn't seem fair for me to be left holding this question either..why is it that I can't fully believe his answer? am I expecting that he would be like me? would I let it get physical? and of course if it did get physical my forgiveness may depend on at what point it did...color] Can you be happy in this marriage? the reason for most of my unhappiness with the m was that I thought h didn't really care about me...so my question is can h be happy in this m? can we both be happy in this m? the answer of course is yes. the real question is can we both do what it takes to remain happy in this m and keep it going?

I do understand that this is a roller coaster ride for you. And I have looked at your subsequent posts. Yes, you do bitch, moan, and complain. That's ok. But at some point you have to stop. Tell us about the positives.

Quote:

it is only when I sit back and stop looking for what it is I think I want and look at what I am getting that I realize I am getting what I want and the things that I'm not getting I can ask for and will be more likely to get if I am already looking at the r as positive and just looking for a little icing, instead of constantly acting like everything depends on what I think I want.

Thus I suggest that you read this book: "Excuse Me, Your Life is Waiting: The Astonishing Power of Feelings" by Lynn Grabhorn. The basic ideas of the text is that we get back what we give off. This might help you. I'll look into it, thnks

LL, I see your oscillations. So all I have to go on is what I have heard you say and what I have seen you write. And one of those things was that you didn't know if you wanted to be married to this man. I think that's a pretty normal thought to have on occassion...the problem is when that thought is the dominant one.

So, I will leave you with this question. Have you decided that you are going to be married to this man?
uhm? that decision was made over 6 years ago..the question is am I going to be happily married to this man? and more importantly...what am I going to do to ensure that I am happy while married to this man?
IMP

thanks IMP!

Oh, your posts are ALWAYS a gripping read, LL!!

I think you really hit it on the head with your second option re "would you rather I said...." to IMP's first post.

I don't necessarily agree that the pissing and moaning must stop (yeah TRY that!) but it IS good to take some action on the stuff that just seems to keep recycling itself.

Hmmmm....note to self....take your own advice!!!

Shiny

Just so's you don't feel like the only pisser and moaner around here....

At least YOUR H GETS horny!

Shiny

Quote:

Just so's you don't feel like the only pisser and moaner around here....

At least YOUR H GETS horny!

Shiny

just not as often as I'd like! makes me wonder...and I don't like to wonder...well I do like to wonder but it's never productive and usually gets me doing things I shouldn't be doing!

LL

LL,
Thanks for putting down in words pretty much how I feel too.
I can''t seem to let go and trust. I think this is a direct result of how is is acting. Some people would say, "great, he's says ILY, you see him almost everyday, you have great sex, he's a good Father!"
It's the other stuff-the way he looks at me, or doesn't look at me, the way he is not in a hurry to see me-all the little things that are too hard to put into words that makes me wonder.
Problem is he goes back and forth too much. He'll be moving right along and I think WOW, this is it! He's really back!
Then his whole demeanor will change.
I don't know about you LL, but I've been doing this dance for 2 yrs now,and I'm getting pretty tired of it.
I will hang in there-I think we have a fighting chance (if OW is indeed out of the picture like he says)
I told him though-I won't wait forever.
I'm up and down all the time too LL, so I totally understand where you are with this.
I think we can help each other because our sitch. sound so similar. All I want is to be loved, and to be able to trust my H. Period. Rachael

RMC,

I too have been at this for almost 2 yrs. I am at the end of my rope too. I had a bad spell this week and was ready to throw in the towel. Right now I am just trying to get thru the holidays.

Do the exercise on the detatching thread. It really helps. My H is not trustworthy. I have trusted him over and over again to only be told more lies. The truth is all his lies or most of them center around his time spent with his female friend/boss. In the past I was very controlling and judgemental about their R and never held back telling my H.

So now H does not want to tell me anything that involves her name so he lies. H is still selfish and wants to do whatever he wants and does not want me telling him he can't do something. Conflict avoider that he is.

If I was more detatched I would be saying: H does not trust me enough yet that I will not be judgemental and controlling when he tells me something I may not agree with. H is not intentionally hurting me, he is just trying to do the best he can. I just need to show him my unconditional love and support. I will trust him even if he has shown me he is not trustworthy. I am in control of how I think and feel. nik

Hi LL! So we're gonna shut down THIS thread in under a month!!!

Excellent posts from Nick and Rachael...gotta run, dinner's cookin'.

Shiny

LL

Are you and I leading parallel lives or what! I was just about to post a really pissy long rant about what an a$$hole my H is and how I'm not sure if I can carry on with this R anymore, then I catch up with your thread and think - hey LL is living my life what's with this?

Soooo... I am so grateful to you for finally hauling out that 2X4 cause you managed to clunk me on the head on the backswing!

I really am starting to realise that we have to live our OWN lives as happy as we can, not buy in to the fairytale romance crap that once you have the white dress and the ring you will be happy ever after etc etc blah blah. These men of ours are bill-paying roommates at the moment and who hasn't fallen out with a roommate at some time or other, who didn't have huge rows with parents/siblings etc. Living under the same roof with someone and sharing life is going to be tough it is not going to be all fun and sunshine NO MATTER WHAT. That's just life, and life is what WE make it not what some other bugger is up to.

This is MY life, I am going to be the one to make it fun, I am not going to rely on anyone else to do that, I am not going to piss and moan about anyone else's behaviour or try to point out to anyone else how they should be leading their life. My only promise to myself is not to be sexually unfaithful to my lawfully wedded H (but that is a private promise just for me).

Take care LL and thanks again for that 2X4

cheers

Fran

ok,
so today I'm going to try to stay away from negative thinking about my h and the r...

but first I'll just put this out there as it's something that always seems to bug me...yes it's football...doesn't matter how tired or busy h is..he always finds the time for his football...as a season ticket holder he's got txts to this afternoons (4:15) game...he's been out plowing since yesterday morning (came home briefly from 7-11) I would have thought he'd be either 1. too tired to go to the game or 2. still too busy plowing to go to the game...however...as of last night his intentions were to have an employee take care of his route so he could go to the game??? huh? too tired to give a little lovin to your w? too tired to stay awake and spend some qt with your w..but not to tired or busy to drive 2 hours to sit in a parking lot and then sit in a staduim watching a bunch of guys in tight pants run around after a ball? huh?

ok back to positives...

I was totally wiped out at the end of the day yesterday...kids woke at 5am (h left shortly there after to start plowing) spent a few hours between naps and meals outside playing and shoveling...by 8 I was falling asleep on the couch...by 9:30 I went up to bed..

what are the positives???

h asked son not to climb on me as I lay on the couch
when I finally did go up to bed h came to make sure I was ok..kissed my cheek and I do believe patted my behind (too bad he didn't try for more)
before leaving h said ily

there's about a foot of snow outside right now and it is still snowing.

LL

Here's my 2 cents

Quote:

but first I'll just put this out there as it's something that always seems to bug me...yes it's
football...doesn't matter how tired or busy h is..he always finds the time for his football...as a
season ticket holder he's got txts to this afternoons (4:15) game...he's been out plowing since
yesterday morning (came home briefly from 7-11) I would have thought he'd be either 1. too
tired to go to the game or 2. still too busy plowing to go to the game...however...as of last night
his intentions were to have an employee take care of his route so he could go to the game???
huh? too tired to give a little lovin to your w? too tired to stay awake and spend some qt with
your w..but not to tired or busy to drive 2 hours to sit in a parking lot and then sit in a staduim
watching a bunch of guys in tight pants run around after a ball? huh?

First off, have you asked H what it is about football that he likes, how it makes him feel..just wondering.

Would you rather he be a football player? Can you imagine what those wives have to live with every day of their lives? How they have to attend the games with all the other wives and can you imagine the competition, the gossip, the cattiness. Your H has his one day a week for football and the season is coming to a close. For the players it's their lives, I'm sure they are gone a lot more than H is and if they have children, the responsibility of the children more than likely is on the shoulders of the wives!

Isn't it lot easier to deal with football as the OW? Oh I know you don't want either, but you might have to accept it and get going girl!!! There's lots to do out there besides shovel.

Cathy

Cathy,

points well taken! facts are that I don't really mind h's interest in football (he's got a closet and man's room full of "his" teams paraphanalia purchased mostly by me to prove it) or work. What I do however mind is the fact that those things are always important, first, worth the effort, worth the energy, worth staying awake for.

I'm not sitting here pouting about it believe me...I'm just saying that it seems like we come third..and that would make me come kinda last in h's mind. in the end does it matter?

proof that I haven't pouted about it at all...

h has called at least 4 times today including a call in the middle of this post...just to say hello and let me know where they are and what is going on.

don't know when he'll be home...if he has more plowing to do after the game or if he's comming right home..don't plan to wait to find out..plan to find something good on tv, light a fire, open a bottle of wine (the light stuff) and maybe make myself some spinach & artichoke dip..put the kids to bed early and relax.

LL

example of good dbing....

son is waiting for h to come home as he was told that he'd be able to ride in the truck to help daddy plow the drive way...

daddy wont be home til long after son is in bed due to football game and work..

h calls to say hello and let me know the woes they've endured on the way to the staduim (poor babies. blah!)

son doesn't want to talk..

a few min later son asks is daddy here? I reply no daddy may not be home til after we're asleep.

son says..."I want to talk to daddy about this"

I call h's cell (I know he's not out plowing so figure it's ok) uncle answers, son doesn't recognize the voice so throws a bit of a fit...h gets on phone and deals with him..some tears..some of that stuttering pouting stuff and finally passes the phone to me.

h is short with me on the phone...expresses that he's about to snap...I simply say...just don't snap at me...h then says I gotta go.

I could have gotten pissy with him but didn't bother to...what really would be the point..he'd only argue with me anyway. so I left it at just don't snap at me...then ok bye.

guess what...

h called a few minutes after to appologize if he had snapped at me. I expressed that it made me feel like I shouldn't have let son call him..he expressed that I should always let son call him "that's what it's all about"

so that's that.

now to put dd's football shirt on as the only games they lost were when she wasn't wearing her shirt.

LL

I have to say I handled myself better than usual last night.
H was suppose to stay overnight. We went to a movie (Love Actually-GREAT!!) and then came home and lit a fire and watched TV. H did not initiate sex, but I suppose he would have after we went to bed,but our S called and said he was coming home instead of spending the night at his friends.
Now he is not fond of the idea of his Dad satying here. He loves his Dad alot and does not want to hurt him, but when he got home he had almost nothing to say,and acted pissy. He just went to bed. My H said he could not stay and make things worse for him. I disagreed and said the reason he is that way is because he does not trust that you are not seeing the OW still and your not acting commited by not staying with us. It would prove to him that you really want to be with us and he would get used to it fast.
I was upset H left but talked on the phone to him about it without really arguing-just stating my point.
This morning S asked where his Dad was I told him he left because he did not think he wanted him here. I guess he called his Dad and asked him why he left-when I asked him what he said he told me that his Dad said he thought about staying. No more info.
We were at our D's all day so no chance to talk. I'll ask him later tonight when we talk what all was said.
I told him he should talk to our S and let him know that he is NOT seeing the OW at all.
He hates those kind of conversations, and I don't want to seem controlling, so I'll butt out.
When H left he gave me a really good kiss, but did not say ILY. Most of the time he says it when we part.
I did tell him I hate it when he leaves,and asked if someday he'll be staying. (Iknow, I know!) He said yes.
Talk is cheap. We'll see what happens. I do think he'd stay alot if it weren't for our S, but that's his problem to work out.
I am going through a very insecure time right now and don't like it.
I'm not in the Xmas mood AT ALL. I'm not putting up a tree (first time ever) because S says he doesn't care, we're never home anyway. We are always at our D's house 4 doors down. She has said they are staying home this year and wants us to come down there in the morning. Also a first. Everyone has always been here Xmas eve and morning.
I don't know if our oldest S will be coming home from Colorado (that will be a first too).
Everything is changing so fast. When did my kids grow up? It seems one day they were here and then they weren't.
Our youngest S is a senior this year. He'll be off to college probably next year.
I can't imagine being alone in this big house.
I guess the holidays are the time to either feel wonderful, or feel like crap. I try to hide it, but it's all really getting to me.
Sorry this is a downer post-it's just the way I feel right now. Maybe tomorrow will be better. H and I are going Xmas shopping-I have not even started yet. D and I are making cookies this week. Hopefully that will help too.
I just never thought our lives would be like this-ever.
Rachael

hey rachel,

here's an idea...put up a tree..put some lights on it..decorate it any way you like..bring out the decorations and make the house festive and happy..matters not if people wont be comming..not doing it may only serve to further your down mood.

I do understand about not wanting to bother...I discovered h's ow just before christmas and had no desire what so ever to do any of it...but forced myself to and was glad I did.

LL

Thanks LL, but don't know if I'll bother. My H will probably
make me feel guilty about it, but he has not said anything about getting a tree so neither have I.
I'll decorate the fireplace and hang all the stockings.
That will probably be it. I've forced myself the last two years to decorate when I felt like absolute crap. This year I'm not doing it. I don't see the need to. When I walk inthe empty house with the tree alllit up it just serves to remind me of how H and I used to turn all the lights out and lay on the couch and cuddle and look at the tree.
No thanks. Not this year. Rachael

LL
Good DBing LL.

Quote:

I'm not sitting here pouting about it believe me...I'm just saying that it seems like we come third..and that would make me come kinda last in h's mind. in the end does it matter?

This is all the more reason why you have to get out and get a life. Yeah I know - the kids - but just take baby-steps towards something. You should not be waiting around for him to get round to you. Men just don't, they put all the effort in when there is a crisis and then just sit back and think "Our M is OK, don't need to worry about that". Remember they cannot concentrate on more than one thing at a time.

BTW I think there has been some research done about men and football, how it reaches their emotions in ways other things don't. It is their only real manly emotional outlet, they get to yell, cry, scream, etc in a way they can't normally get away with so in the end it's good for them and keeps them on the level. And they get to do that guy bonding thing.

whatever

Fran

so I could keep my mouth shut no longer...I mean really...you take 3 hours to drive to foxboro 5 hours to watch a football game a couple of hours for cooking your damn steak tips in between a few more hours to drive back to brothers then sleep for another 6 and think that has nothing to do with why you ended up lying to your son when you told him you'd be home before he woke up?????

you call me to piss and moan about shovels missing and the like..as if I'm supposed to care about that stuff when you've lied to your son?
I mean really h...you told him you'd be home before he woke up...now you wont even be home til a few hours after he gets out of school..and what am I supposed to do to comfort him when I'm damn rightly pissed at you too?
you want to sit and tell me there was a 50% chance that you would have made it home...well then I tell you buddy there's a 50% chance that you would end up lying to your son like you did!

you tell me not to throw the kids at you??? well you have kids...sure I've learned to not expect anything from you..learned to have little faith in your word..but you are teaching your kids that daddy talks out his a-hole...and that work and football are more important to you than they are...how do you think your kids are going to see you as they grow??? you think son is going to want to work with you? na, I think he's going to resent your work just like I did...don't you wonder why when you are here working he no longer wants to stay with you and often prefers to go work with the neighbor???? even if the neighbors kids aren't out with him???

hey h....guess what....I think I love you....or would you prefer I say...I love you, I'm not in love with you? your just lucky that I don't travel in a circle to meet someone to open my mind to the true possibilities of life.

h your a selfish passive aggressive a-hole and to be perfectly honest with you...I'm not afraid of you leaving anymore...infact I think I might let out a great sigh of releif if you do...sure I'd be sad for the kids..and the holidays would be a mess (be fore warned I'd fight to have them on most of them anyway) we don't need you h and that is your own doing, life is easier when your not around. Sundays are much better when your not here.

this is the reality of life married to h...

h turned out to be a dissapointment to me...is not honest...is not dependable...is not trustworthy...gee if that is the message I as an adult carefully trying to consider his work and his right to a life...wonder what message he's sending his kids!

LL

OH SH!T!

I KNEW this was coming when I watched the game last night! At least you won, can't you at least be happy about that after getting screwed in the World Series?????

Quote:

OH SH!T!

I KNEW this was coming when I watched the game last night! At least you won, can't you at least be happy about that after getting screwed in the World Series?????

oh sure tony...I'm happy that they won..gee maybe they'll get to the superbowl again and h can take off to new orleans or some other nice place to party for a weekend with his buddie while I stay at home with the kids.

the point is not about the game or even the fact that he went to the game..it is simply that had he NOT gone to the game he would have been able to keep his word with his son.

suppose I really shouldn't expect much of a man though...well at least he pays the bills..is that worth keeping him for? or would that simply then allow him to find himself another girl friend and use the age old...oh my wife just thinks of me as a wallet routine?

so tired of the bs..so tired of being blamed for everything..

so tired of biting my damn tounge just so h can be happy and we can pretend to be a happy little family when in fact I know we are not!

LL

LL,

I still love you...so you have that going for you!!!

You said:

Quote:

your just lucky that I don't travel in a circle to meet someone to open my mind to the true possibilities of life.

That is very interesting. It tell me that you are unhappy with your life, regardless of the R that you have. Also, it suggests that you are looking at your life in terms of others than in terms of yourself. We open our own minds to the true possibilities of life. What is it that lostlove wants for herself. Also, I see a woman who finds that she isn't getting a chance to use her mind. Maybe you are really mad at yourself.

You undoubtedly have some things to figure out. Don't let your life pass you by.

IMP

Quote:

LL,

I still love you...so you have that going for you!!!

You said:
Quote:

your just lucky that I don't travel in a circle to meet someone to open my mind to the true possibilities of life.

That is very interesting. It tell me that you are unhappy with your life, regardless of the R that you have. Also, it suggests that you are looking at your life in terms of others than in terms of yourself. We open our own minds to the true possibilities of life. What is it that lostlove wants for herself. Also, I see a woman who finds that she isn't getting a chance to use her mind. Maybe you are really mad at yourself.

You undoubtedly have some things to figure out. Don't let your life pass you by.

IMP

I knew you'd be by...

maybe h was right...he can't reach me...sure I can use my mind when I'm with him if it involves watching current events and the like but forget any kind of philosophical thinking and dream on if you get any thought there'd be any physchological discussions...h lives in a world of food and money.

I use my mind pleanty...just a shame I can't share it with h...he's either to simple minded or who the heck knows.

I don't mean to imply that my life depends on others..it doesn't..I can be content to be alone..heck if I really look at things I've always been alone..sure the idea of a r was always in place but I don't think h and I have ever really had a consitant r.

points you make are valid imp..but they are not unknown to me..

have you seen the movie I am sam???

just picture h as sam and me as the dd.

LL

LL,

There you go with the quotes again! It's ok if you want to take up space on your thread!

We don't know your H, and we are only seeing one side of the story. You know what I mean about wishing we could look inside our spouses head to see what the heck is going on in there! You may be suprised! I'm sure he sees you as someone he can depend on. Someone that takes care of the kids, dinner, paperwork, shopping, cleaning, trash, yardwork, etc. Oh crap, he sounds like me and my W walked!!!!!!!!!!!

IMP, we ALL love LL!

exactly tony!!!

she walked..I didn't...should I have?? or will I always be the dependable wife??? the one who's here? the one who bites her tounge to save her m..the one who accepts "just enough" almost to spite herself..the one who just keeps it all in...I never kept it in before tony...h always knew exactly what he was doing when he was doing it that pissed me off...that didn't stop him...that pushed him away...now I keep my mouth shut and put on a happy face..tell myself it could be worse...be happy at least he came home...how long can I tell myself it could be worse when I know the truth is it could be better...not sitting here saying why should I be the one to change...I have changed...h is still the same dud he was before..

shortly after discolsure of ow...h took off to new orleans with buddie to see super bowl...he left a night early to plow...he was there for the weekend...came back late due to snow or something and then the next day spent all day watching a tape of the game with buddie at buddies house?

that was not a result of h's a..or anything else..that was a result of h being who he is...selfish.

how long does LL have to be a marter?

LL

LL,

How did you know I would be by?????

I do know that the points I make are known to you. Are you looking for an answer? Do you know the answer? When you sit back and look at the situation, where do you see it going? What do your guts tell you?

IMP

PS to Tony - I don't love anyone that I have never met.

okay LL, duck because here come the 2 x 4's.

You need to figure out just WHY this makes you so angry.
In a different world, if you were okay with this, S would be okay with it - "hey, S, daddy couldn't make it back in time, but we know he was out having a good time with his friends, and when he gets home he'll take you out and tell you all about the game. Maybe when you're older you can go with him? Won't that be fun?"
My kids were always okay with my H travelling for work because I was okay with it and didn't make a big deal out of it.

So - if it's not really about S - is it because you resent him having fun when you aren't? Sorry, but that's YOUR issue - he's not stopping you from going out and having fun with your own friends - YOU ARE. (Took me a long time to figure this out myself

).

If it's because you resent him spending time with buddies when he doesn't give you enough time - well, have you shown any interest in going to the games with him? Learning the lingo, buying some tickets for the two of you, etc.? It's important to make an effort to share your spouse's enthusiasms with them, even if it wouldn't be your first choice. Right now, all your anger and resentment are achieving is making him rebel against "mom" who is trying to keep him from having any enjoyment in life! Don't go there. Drop that rope.

Ellie

ok kml, get ready to have your 2x4 thrown right back at ya!

Quote:

okay LL, duck because here come the 2 x 4's.

You need to figure out just WHY this makes you so angry.
In a different world, if you were okay with this, S would be okay with it - "hey, S, daddy couldn't make it back in time, but we know he was out having a good time with his friends, and when he gets home he'll take you out and tell you all about the game. Maybe when you're older you can go with him? Won't that be fun?" point is h doesn't have time for son and it will be a long time comming before h takes him to a game and then it will only be when it's conveineint for him...I asked son if he likes watching football with daddy...son said..no...I like when he watches my channel with me...but that rarely happens
My kids were always okay with my H travelling for work because I was okay with it and didn't make a big deal out of it. I honestly am happier when h is not here it is his constant lack of dependability that irritates me...if you don't know what time you'll be home then don't tell me you'll be home at x time only to either not show or show an hour later..that's not fair to me or the kids if I know he's not going to be here I can put son to bed with out a fuss cause there's no point in waiting for daddy.

So - if it's not really about S - is it because you resent him having fun when you aren't? Sorry, but that's YOUR issue - he's not stopping you from going out and having fun with your own friends - YOU ARE. no actually geography is (Took me a long time to figure this out myself ).

If it's because you resent him spending time with buddies when he doesn't give you enough time - well, have you shown any interest in going to the games with him? I'd go to every game if he'd let me but he doesn't! Learning the lingo, buying some tickets for the two of you, etc.? he has season tickets and I have to beg to get to one game, in past years I've not gone at all...I got interested and wathced all the games...and then he retreated..went elswhere to watch didn't bring me to any games..why? cause I don't have a penis... It's important to make an effort to share your spouse's enthusiasms with them, even if it wouldn't be your first choice. it's never my first choice...h is the one you should be talking to here not me..he shows little to no interest in my interests... Right now, all your anger and resentment are achieving is making him rebel against "mom" who is trying to keep him from having any enjoyment in life! Don't go there. Drop that rope. I'm not holding any rope..I dropped it a long time ago...honestly I'd be happy if he left again...let him go off into the sunset with little miss cancer..see if she's happy with a self centered man.

Ellie

I CAN'T TAKE IT!

Glad I'll be divorced soon!

ok ll

cut the bs, what do you really want that is IN YOUR CONTROL?

just curious

kitti

Quote:

I CAN'T TAKE IT!

Glad I'll be divorced soon!

ya shoot me tony..I quoted again...

tell me tony..you had a passion for race cars..if w wanted to go would you have taken her? would you have let her enjoy you enjoying your choice of recreation? or would you bring her into it for a little while and then push her away saying this is just the guys????

I would love to share h's enjoyment with him..trouble is I did that before and it got me no where but pushed away...I do try to enjoy it now..I can't always watch the games cause I'm busy with the kids..but I'm sure to put dd's game shirt on (seems to be good luck as they've only lost when she didn't have it on) and check the score from time to time and im his phone to say woo hoo! when they score...but because I don't have a penis I can't buy the other seat..that's for his brother...hmm funny that it's a just the guy thing..strange that last year when bil couldn't go he gave ticket to his wife so my h went with bils wife while I stayed home (and nope he didn't tell me about it either)

I'm just the wife...that's all I am..I was just the girlfriend..now I'm just the wife...why should I expect anything more.

LL

Quote:

ok ll

cut the bs, what do you really want that is IN YOUR CONTROL?

just curious

kitti

to either be left alone or for that other person to actually participate with me in this r..sure he may feel right now like he's pulling the ship because he makes the money..but if I were to check out..this ship would sink for sure!!! he doesn't even realize that or show it.

what is in my control?

to not give a flying f what h does or doesn't do.
to stop making exuses for h to the kids.
to go live my own life and hope that doesn't as I suspect it will only serve to push me further away from whatever there is of a r here.

LL

LL,

I BEGGED my wife to do things with me, she never would. I thought she was my best friend, my only friend! I guess she never really was in love with me all these years! The reality is just now setting in!

so then, really ll, from the depths of your self knowledge, what in the hell is keeping you there?

really ll, answer me truthfully

kitti

and there tony is what makes no sense to me at all...a woman who's h wants to share things with her leaves? while I've got a h who I'll go anywhere with and do anything with even if they are not my interests and he chooses to exclude me?

LL

Quote:

so then, really ll, from the depths of your self knowledge, what in the hell is keeping you there?

really ll, answer me truthfully

kitti

the kids!

Nothing makes any sense LL! Yes stay for the kids!

"one day you die, and nobody gives a sh!t" That was what my friend told me when I asked him if he knew the meaning of life!

Okay, then, if you are really doing it for the kids, shouldn't you be doing the best possible job you can? Not being all full of resentment and martydom over a football outing? After all - admit it - if other things in the R were right, the football game wouldn't be such a big deal. And, the male-bonding-over-sports thing - your H is not exactly unique in that.

What would happen if you quit reacting/nagging/fault-finding, and built a happy, joyfilled active life for yourself - you might be surprised, H just might want to join you there!

Ellie

Football season is coming to an end, what does H do with the rest of his time? It kind of sounds like Sunday's will be open for both of you at the end of this month...watcha going to plan either with H or just YOU. It's your turn LL.

Cathy

VEBT AWAY LL. That is what this BB is all about. One thing though. If your H left, you'd still have the issue of him not keeping his word to his kids.
If he has that trait, I doubt he'll change. Question is: Do you want to live with it? With him?
How long was your H gone before he moved back home?
I can relate, because I am frustrated with my H too, but for different reasons. He does put his kids first,I can't complain about that. I'm just tired of this wishy washy stuff.
I know your tired too LL. Rachael

the kids

good answer, let me ask you this ll, are you willing to sacrifice ANYTHING for your kids? think about it before you answer

ANYTHING

would you go as far as lay down your life for your children?

kitti

Quote:

Okay, then, if you are really doing it for the kids, shouldn't you be doing the best possible job you can? Not being all full of resentment and martydom over a football outing? After all - admit it - if other things in the R were right, the football game wouldn't be such a big deal. exactly! but the fact remains that things are NOT right in the r And, the male-bonding-over-sports thing - your H is not exactly unique in that. I don't have a problem with h watching football...I don't have a problem with h being one of those freaky fans that people stare at in bars cause they watch the game as if their very life depended on each play..I think it's pretty cool he can have such passion for something outside himself the problem is that he doesn't allow me to share it unless it's convenient for him to do so

What would happen if you quit reacting/nagging/fault-finding, and built a happy, joyfilled active life for yourself - you might be surprised, H just might want to join you there! nope! then h would just accuse me of hanging with the wrong people or get mad at me when I ask him to spend time with me since he can find the time and energy for his own stuff..then I would be living a life completely without h...I have gone that route many times over in the 14 years I've spent with him...then I say? what's the point? go out and enjoy life? live and be happy, laugh and enjoy what life has to offer only to return to a blob who doesn't want to share it with me?

Ellie

cathy,

when the actual football season is over..h finds other things to do with his time...chopping wood for hours outside...reading about the team on the website...basically doing whatever he can to avoid us.

LL

LL, I'm curious. Why do you think he tries to avoid you?
Has he always been like this? Rachael

Quote:

LL, I'm curious. Why do you think he tries to avoid you?
Has he always been like this? Rachael

I suppose he avoids everyone wich is why it is such a surprize to me that he had a girlfriend.

his friends that he used to hang out with when we met all still get together and one couple actually lives 6 miles from us..he never calls them if we see them it's cause I call...he only calls buddie..one of his friends/employees is buying a house nearby..I asked if he would be inviting him to come over and watch football with him sometimes..his answer...no! I then asked him who his friends are and he had no answer...said he has aquantances..I asked if I were going to have a surprize party for him how would I know who to invite? his answer?? vauge...the guys he goes to the game with...funny not that long ago he refered to these guys as a bunch of animals...and the only time that I know of that he spends with them is at the games...I know that most of them are actual friends with eachother outside of football.

here's the point..last year before h moved out but after disclosure of ow..we had been going out once a week with the couple that live nearby....we were sitting there and the wife commented that he didn't seem to be enjoying himself...he had nothing to say and was just a lump on the chair at the bar...along walked on of the football guys (they were in another room with wives etc. celebrating a b-day) h lit up..came alive...the answer is clearly...he is not happy with me...is happy with other people but doesn't want to include me in that crowd? why? cause he wants to play mr. & mrs. jones with me? the responsible couple that stay at home with the kids? and then go off and party till he pukes with other people? point is now he knows all the guys and their wives...has for years..but he's never brought me around them so now can't cause I'm the wife that doesn't fit in.
if he even wanted to wich when I've asked he says he doesn't want to hang with them.

I don't know who my h is other than the man that works to pay the bills and that he likes football.

LL

LL, There must have been a reason you wanted him back. Can you think of what it was? How long was he gone? Rachael

Quote:

LL, There must have been a reason you wanted him back. Can you think of what it was? How long was he gone? Rachael

he was gone over six months...honestly..I think the reason I wanted him back was so that I didn't have to face being a divorce mother of two at 30.

Finding out about ow was just about the end to me anyway...I recall saying to one of my friends (the brother or the woman who saw h with ow) I can't put up with this, I wasn't happy to begin with...I can't stay with him...help me do this.

that week h and I talked alot about m and our r...the only time he seemed at ease was when I talked of just ending our m...he talked and talked and despite the fact that he had voluntarily stayed at his parents for a week or so after he was here awake til 1am talking to me etc.

the reason I wanted him back and part of the reason I don't just give up? because in there somewhere is the guy I fell in love with long ago..every once in a while he comes back to the surface...I've stayed around waiting and waiting for life to not continue to drown him out..he himself kept promising me that man would come back with time..just that work and other things needed to happen first...well the clincher was that man did come to the surface..but it was not for me..that man came to the surface for another.

I don't forgive him and I probably never will and don't feel that I should have to, he obviously isn't showing me that I should forgive him. Maybe I would forgive him if it did him some good..after all he's gotta realize that if she could cheat on her h so could I right?

h used me to get back into his home and to the kids so that he didn't have to be the bad guy anymore...now I'm stuck with the crippled dog I let in.

never feed stray animals! they become your responsibility.

LL

Well LL, are ya gonna stick it out? It sounds like your damn mad and you have every reason to be. Sorry, but I don't agreee with stuffing your anger when they do something like this. They HAVE to know you won't stand for it. Tell him how you feel and get it off your shoulders. The thing is it doesn't help to keep putting it in front of them after that. Not that you do, I don't know.
I know what you mean that you H acts happier around other people. My H does that too, but so do I.
I think part of it is a front, part of it is we've stopped relating to one another. I want to talk to him and he say he CAN'T talk to me. I say BULL to that. I am willing to listen anytime.
We are trying to work through this but he makes everything harder than it has to be. He really screwed everything up.
Rachael

ya rachael,

they really did screw everything up didn't they...but didn't you know? it's all our fault that they screwed it up..if we were being perfect little stepford wives they wouldn't have screwed up.

let's try to end this thread on a positive note (btw I'm stiking to my guns about not creating any more threads) h did finally arive home a few minutes ago..hugged son and appologized for being so late (of course he didn't mention to him anything about football and just said that he was working) they are now in the truck plowing the drive way..good thing I have 4 wheel drive else I wouldn't have been able to get son to school this morning as neighbor is very helpful but doesn't plow the whole thing so I had a major mound in front of the garage to get through...as they say..the cobblers children go shoeless.

I've said all I have to say to h about this incident...I'll try not to hold a grudge about his attitude with me (heck all I was trying to do was ask him not to lie to son in the future..if you are only 50% sure you'll follow through then say maybe or I'll try...don't 50% lie to the kid).

LL

LL,

So the question remains...what are you going to do about your situation?

IMP

I will say my H says there is no justification in what he did, but then he also says to me that I don't understand how things were to make it happen. Huh??? Does that make sense to you?
I knwo what happened-she was after him for years and he finally caved because she made him feel so important.
He finally did realize he didn't really want her, but he did like the feeling she gave him.
God.....it just goes on and on. Rachael

Quote:

LL,

So the question remains...what are you going to do about your situation?

IMP

live my life and hope that h doesn't get left behind...I just don't want to be one of those couples that go about their own business and simply live together and on occassion are h and w know what I mean?

oh, ya and also hope that while I'm out there living my life I don't get distracted by the distractions.

LL

ya rachael,

I heat ya there...my h's ow was after him (or any number of guys she did spend time with bil long ago too) for a long long time as well...he just didn't see it and to be honest I still dont think he does..that would have to mean he see's her as flawed and him as a victim where he prefers to see himself as the one who did wrong she was just there. fact is they both took advantage of eachother..used eachother..that after all is what affairs are about...using the other person to meet some need of your own...sure you think it's them but in reality it's just what you get from them...kicker is most often they are giving more too the op and that only serves to get them more in return when if they spent half as much energy on the marital r they'd be getting so much more and wouldn't be living with the constant thread that the whole world is one day going to discover their sham and they'll loose it all.

it's not my fault at all that h had an a...I accept no responsibility for it at all..it would be like me finding someone to go out with and have sex with and then saying well gee h if you would do those things with me I wouldn't have done it with them.

LL

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live my life and hope that h doesn't get left behind...I just don't want to be one of those couples that go about their own business and simply live together and on occassion are h and w know what I mean?

LL, do you feel like that is how it is going now? How would H be left behind? Do you plan on shaking things up? Are you afraid to rock the boat? As a former lug, I can tell you that it does take a shock to the system to make one move.

I do recognize that you are living your life. It is good that you are going to your classes. Are you happy with your classes? Do you use classes as an escape? What do you want from life? For me, it is difficult to cut through some of this stuff.

I asked you before. What do your guts tell you? Do you feel deep down that things will get better or not? A counselor of mine said to me once, "be glad that things happened now rather than 10 years from now."

IMP

LL - I have followed this thread some and have notice that you have received lots of advice on lots of topics. But this jumped out at me.

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I don't forgive him and I probably never will and don't feel that I should have to, he obviously isn't showing me that I should forgive him.

Forgivness is something you do for YOU, not for him. IMHO If you don't forgive him then you will always have some resentment toward him and that resentment will prevent your R from ever getting better. I submit that if you never forgive him that that will prevent any DBing from working.

Just M2CW

YEP. I agree. There is NO excuse for it. I know, I was a WAW 12 yrs ago and it was the biggest mistake of my life. Difference is I owned up to it and worked my butt off to make it up to my H. I don't think he ever forgave me and I think he justified his A because of it.
I wonder if they have that long of an affair if they really ever get over the OW.
He SAYS she means nothing to him, and that may be true, but it's the way she makes him FEEL that worries me.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT that if they put half that energy into the M. they would get so much more out of it!
I think I'll tell my H that! Rachael

LL,

It seems like a good idea to me. You have said repeatedly that you can't forgive. If that is truly the case, what is the sense of staying in the marriage. I do tend to agree with the notion that the R cannot improve until forgiveness is granted. The difficult thing for you is that everything lies on your shoulders. I do understand the difficulty.

IMP

before she gets locked out, i made her a new thread

Lost Love's New Thread

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live my life and hope that h doesn't get left behind...I just don't want to be one of those couples that go about their own business and simply live together and on occassion are h and w know what I mean?

LL, do you feel like that is how it is going now? kinda How would H be left behind? put it this way...before son was born one of my gf's was dating one of h's old friends..they would call us to see if we wanted to join them going to a comedy show or here or there..often h would say no...I'd go anyway..h wasn't fazed..he can sleep on the couch wether I'm here or not Do you plan on shaking things up? what would the point be? Are you afraid to rock the boat? na, just not sure if I want to jump into the ocean and swim or simply get out of the cabin and hang on the deck in the sun As a former lug, I can tell you that it does take a shock to the system to make one move. too many shocks...more of the same from me...plus sure h does step it up a bit after a shock but you know the saying "the changes aren't real or lasting" he inevitably reverts back to lugdom

I do recognize that you are living your life. It is good that you are going to your classes. Are you happy with your classes? the emt class was fun, this class is a 2 week hazmat required class..kinda a drag but the first class we made fun at least at our table Do you use classes as an escape? a yup! What do you want from life? I wanna be a supermodel! no just kidding, I want the fundamentals...I want friends and family...I want to laugh, I want to walk in the rain..I want to kiss in the rain...I want to sit on the beach and watch the sun set...I want to someday get my masters and work with troubled kids somehow connected to the school system so that I can still be around for the kids. For me, it is difficult to cut through some of this stuff.

I asked you before. What do your guts tell you? that this m will ultimately end someday with or without a divorce Do you feel deep down that things will get better or not? for a while they'll get better but in the end when all is said and done it wont A counselor of mine said to me once, "be glad that things happened now rather than 10 years from now."

IMP

oh ya and the forgiveness thing....sure I forgive him for doing what he did...I don't however forgive him for trying to point fingers at me about it and I don't forgive him for continuing to neglect the r.

LL

Forgivenessisdamn hard for me. Just when I think I've putit behindme I remember something like seeing her in his truck with him riding around,when we were still very much together, nad when I asked himabout it he said she just stopped by his office and had some time tokill. I told himthen that I thought it was inappropriate. He kinda sorta agreed with me.Then later I found all her phone numbers in his work planner. I asked him about it and hegot defensive and tore the page out.
I guess I knew in my heart then-my gut was telling me something was wrong but he lied SO WELL.
Truth is, I DON'T trsut him and Iknow he can tell and I donj't really care. He has to earn my trust. I don't think forgiveness is s gift we giveourselves at all. I can't possibly think of forgiving my H for audultry as a gift in any sense of the word.
Like you LL, if he was doing more forthe R, it would go a long way to help me trust him.
Maybe that will happen. I'm not sure. Until then I plod along not quite sure what to do.
I wish I knew. There is no formula to gaini trust. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do-try to trust him again.
I'm not sure I can. Rachael

rachael,

trust and forgiveness are two very different animals. You don't have to trust to forgive. let's not forget too that forgivness does not mean forgetting.

I've done what I can to "forgive" h for his major lack of judgement with this woman...I've done what I can to try to believe what he tells me of the depth or lack there of concerning their r. I will never forget....does that mean I haven't forgiven? I don't think so...I don't hold it over his head...I don't use it against him...I don't say..hey, you did this thing so therefore I can get even madder at all the little things you now do or don't do as a result of it. If I didn't forgive him for it he wouldn't be here, I wouldn't bother with him...he and everyone else in the world would know that I haven't forgiven him...my issue with forgiveness is not knowing clearly what I am forgiving him for...was there a physical thang going on??? haven't forgiven him for that one cause he hasn't admitted to it, infact denies it...so that bit is still looming...sure people tell me to forgive anyway..it doesn't matter...ah but it does...I don't want to forgive someone for something they didn't do. That's like saying to an honest person...it's ok I forgive you for lying.

trust? well trust is a whole other issue...don't know that I ever did fully trust h to begin with? or maybe I did trust him..trusted him too much...never much felt like he trusted me though...not in matters of fidelity but in matters of trusting me with himself..trusting me with his feelings...trusting himself to be exposed to me...I never felt as close to h as I did when he first came home...he opened a door and showed me feelings and the person I knew was there...I suppose if I saw more of that person I'd trust him more. but then again would I?

LL

I did what I know I'm not suppose to do. YEP.
I called my H and told him I had a question. He said "OK."
I asked him if he had talked to the OW. He said "No."
I asked him if he didn't think it strange that she never called him after all these yrs of being friends and having the A. He said "I don't know."
Then he started being sarcastic,and I told him that reminded me of how he used to be when he was in the A before I knew, but I suspected and asked him questions. He would get very defensive.
He said,"It's almost 11, and I was almost asleep." AHHHH!

I told him that if he wanted me to trust him he had to help me and sarcasm was not helping. Then he started being nicer,and we said goodbye.
I might be pushing him awawy by doing this, or I may be testing him. Seeing if he can take it after what he's done.
He can at least reassure me when I need it.
Iwish I really had a way to know if he was talking to her. If he was, it would be over.
It would tell me that she will never be out of our lives and I'm not willing to live that way.
If he cares about his M at all, he better be telling the truth. I'm going to bed so I don't haev to think abou thtis anymore! Rachael
He's not very convincing is he?? Rachael

Hi LL

This bit kind of jumped out at me...

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don't hold it over his head...I don't use it against him...I don't say..hey, you did this thing so therefore I can get even madder at all the little things you now do or don't do as a result of it.

Hmmmm....now I know you don't verbalize this to H so bluntly, is there not a bit of this seeping underneath? I'm thinking of Ellie's posts about your reaction to H staying out so late and missing his time with S.

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my issue with forgiveness is not knowing clearly what I am forgiving him for...was there a physical thang going on??? haven't forgiven him for that one cause he hasn't admitted to it, infact denies it...so that bit is still looming...sure people tell me to forgive anyway..it doesn't matter...ah but it does...I don't want to forgive someone for something they didn't do. That's like saying to an honest person...it's ok I forgive you for lying

This makes a lot of sense. But how will you ever know for sure LL? Could you flat out ask HER?

What if she said there was a PA?

What if she says there wasn't?

I have a book called "Never be lied to again" (by David J. Lieberman) which gives some pretty well studied tips on not only how to tell when people are lying to you, but also how to trip them up and lead them into fessing up to stuff you in fact didn't know about.

Yeah, I was in one of THOSE moods when I bought it.

Shiny

SO Shiny, how DO you tell when people are lying to you??
What's the main thing to look for?
I have a real hard time trusting my H that he is not talking to the OW. I'm suppose to beleive she just stopped calling him after they have had a on/off relationship for 3 yrs. That's along time. Racahel

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Hi LL

Hmmmm....now I know you don't verbalize this to H so bluntly, is there not a bit of this seeping underneath? I'm thinking of Ellie's posts about your reaction to H staying out so late and missing his time with S.

honestly, it is simply his neglect of son...seperate issue but in some way compounded by his neglect of me. Has nothing to do with ow.

This makes a lot of sense. But how will you ever know for sure LL? I suppose I never will, unless of course he changes his story Could you flat out ask HER? I aksed her plenty of times during and after...she denies..denies...denies..

What if she said there was a PA? well then I guess that would either mean there was a pa..or she just wants him back and figures I'd ditch him if it were a pa.

What if she says there wasn't? she already says there wasn't "I know you'll never believe us (don't you like the fact that she refers to herself and my h as us) but it just wasn't like that..anyone can have a physical r"

I have a book called "Never be lied to again" (by David J. Lieberman) which gives some pretty well studied tips on not only how to tell when people are lying to you, but also how to trip them up and lead them into fessing up to stuff you in fact didn't know about.

Yeah, I was in one of THOSE moods when I bought it.

Shiny most of my time spent with h is in one of those moods

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SO Shiny, how DO you tell when people are lying to you??
What's the main thing to look for?
I have a real hard time trusting my H that he is not talking to the OW. I'm suppose to beleive she just stopped calling him after they have had a on/off relationship for 3 yrs. That's along time. Racahel

point is rachael,

you either believe him or you don't and even if you do beleive him (say like if he were to do all the things you think you'd need to trust him) you'll never really know and that doubt will always be there to fight off. Heck look at sage..her h does everything but back flips and she still on occassion has tourmenting thoughts of ow.

LL

I know! I'd love it if my H did everything hers did.
Your right. We'll never know. We do know what they've done and that it's VERY HARD to trust them after that wondering if since they've lied to us before, are they doing it again?
I don't have any answers and I think I'm probably bugging my H too much about it now. I'm needing reassurance, and I don't think it's too much to ask him for it. I think they should help us along in trusting them again, and be willing to listen to us.
I emialed my H this morning telling him I was sorry I called him so late last night, but that I needed his reassurance and to please understand. He has not emailed me back and I know he's there. Hmm. what's up with that? Rachael

Hi, here is my 2 cents. My phsygolist always says, " beleive what they are saying, because they want you to believe it, even if it is not the truth". I guess that still makes it hard to interupt, but another saying, "Listen to the message, not the messenger," sheds a bit more light. I think what everyone is trying to say, is take what is said to heart, even if it is a lie, a known lie, the reason for the message is more important then the actual message. For instance it may be a simple as "I don't want to hurt you", that they themselves what to deperately believe thier own "lie" and by lying is some sort of twisted attempt to "fix" things within themselves.

Still confused??? Just believe what is said. THe other way to look at it, if is the actual truth, would you believe him anyway??

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Still confused??? Just believe what is said. THe other way to look at it, if is the actual truth, would you believe him anyway?? if it is the actual truth and there were some way for me to know it..sure I'd believe him (heck after all he is aparently ld anyway)....I am not however a believer in lying to save the feelings of the other...lying does nothing for us in the end..with holding info is one form of deception but out right lying when asked a direct question is in my opinion detrimental..how can you have an intimate relationship with someone if you are not honest with them???

I agree with LL on this one.
Lying is never good-even if its to sabe one's feelings. I'm not sure it's not to save their own hide. My H would not wnat his kids knowing he is being deceptive to their Mother again.
If I find out he's lying again, I know I'll never believe him no matter what. I can't live with a constant liar.
Rachael

And BTW, if I had the chance to actually KNOW fro sure H was not lying, you better believe I'd believe it! I want to believe him so bad, but I just can't. What he's saying does not make sense. That she has not called him at all and there has been no contact. Well, they've been having contact for 3 yrs. Last time we were together he siad the same thing and then he tells me that he did talk to her.
How can you believe someone like that?? He'snot helping with hte way he's acting either.I'm about to back WAY off, and I'm not sure that's the thing to do either. We've been spending alot of time together, and he runs hot and cold.
I mean he never does anything really bad, it's just a distance thing he does that makes me doubt everything.
I hate this dance we do, but I guess it's like Treesa said in Newcomer's-expect it to take a Loooooong time.
A truer thing was never said. Rachael

rachael,

what if you accepted his hot and cold as having nothing to do with you OR to do with ow and more something to do with himself?

would you then be able to back off without fear or mistrust?

would you then be more comfortable allowing him to work through what ever it is he's got to work through?

I know it's hard to trust when you know you've been lied to so many times (my h too lied even conspired with ow to lie to me) it's the nature of the beast...I ask you this though...how is it that you discovered he WAS lying? can you trust that if he is lying you will discover it eventually and leave it there? I know many might say that sounds like waiting for the other shoe to drop..but hey there's nothing wrong with saying ok...h did lie in the past..right now I'm gonna choose to believe him...if it turns out that he's lying again..well then I'll deal with that then.

LL

Yes, I could live with that. Definatley. It would be a huge relief to know it was about him.
Choosing to believe him is what I'm trying to do right now. I guess I'm not doing such a hot job of it.
I'll probably push him further away, but it won't be the first time. Sometimes, my bluntness has actually worked in my favor. Rachael
What's up with the double posting??