Hey everyone...
Here's a link to my last thread:
Sage's last thread So...I'd been thinking about starting a new thread all weekend...in recognition that despite tremendous progress in my sitch and in my behavior (and in h's behaviors, too!) that I still find myself clinging to some old patterns....too much "mind talk", too much worrying about the future. A few weeks ago I felt SO good -- calm, comfortable, confident....I'm not beating myself up for lapsing back into "stuff"..I just like the other feeling better!!! So, the goal is to get back there and spend as much time there as possible.
Here's where the thread title comes from (horoscope for today):
A Gemini with an inferiority complex is like a restaurant owner with a fear of going hungry. You have no reason to doubt yourself yet there are moments when you can somehow forget all that you are, all that you have accomplished, all that you have at your disposal. It's probably just as well. At least it gives the rest of us some kind of fighting chance to catch up with you. Sometimes though, you have to stop giving yourself a hard time and just shine like the star you are. Here comes such a time. More to come...
Sage
When you post it your horoscope always seems to fit so well!
I think you are awesome and don't have any need to have your fears but that doesn't mean you don't feel them and have to deal with them on a regular basis!
Thank you for all your help today. I am about to make it!
I agree with Pam! I like this horoscope. I am a Gemini too, June 14th. When is your b-day? nik
Nik -- my bday is June 8th. Howdy, fellow twin!
Sage
#2
Pam! When you're the first poster on a new thread you can claim braggin rights, but as you didn't I'll claim the #2 spot.
Hi Sage!
So sorry my query prompted a trip down "bad memories lane"
I was doing pretty good with my first bomb anniv. until I read my journalling from that day.
..Kind of brought it all back some.
...I started to read further (I journalled LOTS back then) and just decided that it was making me feel worse, and went outside to work instead.
It's good to know how much we can handle. Now, that said, I think these upcoming "anniversaries" might be a good opportunity for you...sure they suck, but you know what? It really feels good to know that it IS a year later and things are SOOO much better!!
WOW!! Look at how far WE have come, Sage! Not to mention our Ms
.
I'm not quite sure, but I know that I started the e-mail sending. It's not something CJ and I ever did with any regularity at all. In fact I'll bet I had maybe 10 e-mails TOTAL from him before this.
I have never actually ASKED CJ how he feels about OW (he offered that all by himself
). I don't have a good answer for why the reassurances NOW... I have mentioned in past conversation that it helps when he says I'm sorry, but he's known that for months.
Now that I think of it, he began to offer more reassurances after he read the bb printouts! Perhaps it reassured HIM to know that I wasn't on here bashing him or plotting my escape!
PERHAPS, Sage the one who can answer this the best is sitting in the livingroom doing homework. Maybe it was nothing I did so much as a place HE has come to?? Maybe I'll just send him an e-mail and ask on your behalf!
Shiny
Hi Sage,
Thought I'd post the response I got from CJ here:
The reassurances are not planned on my part, I just felt moved by the progress we've made, and how much I am grateful for you not leaving me after what I had done.
The song was playing, and I was looking out the window at our spruce trees, and it made me think of the struggles we have had, but are still standing by each other's side.
I don't have a hard answer for sage, but perhaps she should try sending her hubby an e-mail expressing her own feelings of how things have been going. Afterall, it was one of your e-mails that started the domino effect of our recent e-mail exchanges.
Love ya
CJ
Hey! it's worth a shot, right?
Shiny
Sage:
I am concerned bc i am feeling right now this afraid about future reapeating all the bad moments of the past... maybe bc i was reading my past journal, i felt even worse... but the positive is that i had controlled myself, never change my mood in front of h, and try to think that our past history wont repeat again...
Reading my journal i found out many many differents behavior in my h on this period reconciliation than the last one that not function...
On our last "being together again" period he sustained the acctitude of "doing what i want and what i desire without any consideration for you"... he inisisted going out with buddies until late night, he contacted the OW only for brief talks but he contacted her... he always acted like the king who needs all.... And about me, i was so insecure, so fragile... reading that i found out how much i had learned and growht by myself... and definitely this change on me has made a great impact on him...!!...
So, there is a long journey in front of me... i need to beguin my C therapy again, so soon, but we dont have too much money extra so next week maybe... but i know this will help me a lot, my c is so good...!!...Sometimes i wonder if talking about my fears and feelings will be positive for us, and always i getthe conclussion that no...!!... for example, yesterday i was thinking that maybe my h was with me bc economic issue... bc a split will be negative for him...
but then i remember and see how affective and great he is with me... how great we make love.. how much we enjoy together, and i get withput any talk, my own conclussion that a man that isnt confortable with his W, and that is only bc economic issue with her, will never act as my h...
So, you are not alone in this process.... hang in there, and i will appreciate too much the feed back with someone is feeling the same as me...
receive a big hug...
Andrea
Quoting shinybear:
I don't have a hard answer for sage, but perhaps she should try sending her hubby an e-mail expressing her own feelings of how things have been going. Afterall, it was one of your e-mails that started the domino effect of our recent e-mail exchanges.
Love ya
CJ
Hey Shiny,
thanks for asking CJ.
So...my initial response to you was going to be that I liked his idea but would probably wait a while to email h. since I'm feeling scared/nervous/a bit low as a result of my trip down "crappy" lane -- I think an email would be too full of me seeking reassurance.
But...something strange just happened with h and I ended up sending an email anyway.
Last night as I was going to bed, h said something to me like "dream about my love for you. It'll be the longest dream you'll ever have".
So...this morning when he called me at work I told him that I had slept really well because of what he had told me to dream about. Then (and this just flew out of my mouth) I said "thank you for loving me". I didn't say it all desperate and clingy! I said it kind of like I say "thank you for going food shopping" (ok, with a bit more love!). But, maybe you know what I mean...it wasn't a desperate attempt, it was me just expressing thanks.
anyway, h said "don't thank me for loving you. that sounds weird". He didn't say it jerky or anything...just kind of matter of fact. So I said "that sounds weird to you?" and he said "I was just kidding".
We moved on.
I got off the phone and felt kind of stupid.
The conversation was fine...and there really wasn't any intent in my saying that...but well, now we ALL feel weird!
So, I sent h a very brief email:
Bud --
I'm sorry if my thanking you for loving me comment felt strange to you. Heck, now it feels sort of strange to me, too! It just came out of my mouth....I meant no pressure by it...just expressing my gratitude for all you do.
A year ago now our marriage was in a pretty troubled state. I'm grateful for the changes that the year has brought. Perhaps that would have been a better way to say it. :-)
Love,
Sage Don't fire too hard at me...the deed is done.
What's kind of weird now is that I don't feel as though I need a positive response from him...or reassurance. The email was really about me telling him how I feel.
Sage
Hi Sage,
I think it sounds like you did fine, especially as you have all of your emotions sort of stirred up from your trip down memory lane.
You didn't come across as looking for or needing reassurances.
Just a statement of fact.
I like it.
I think the clarification in the email was very good so that he was clear on what you really meant.
So no firing from me.
But I'm not too great of a judge on the email thing as we both know from this weekend!
But read yours more than once and it still looks fine.
Got an email back from h...I'd say this went well!
Sage - mo,
I really was kidding when I said it made me feel strange. I feel the same way,
I feel like thanking YOU for loving ME.
I'm grateful as well. I love you so much!
h. Sage
I'm glad things are going well for you...the statement you made to h is not weird infact it is something you can find in cards...I bought such a card...well after h's a but before seperation...it simply said..."I'm loving you loving me" I bought it just becuase...but then realized that it was actually a valentines day card...I told him about it but never gave it to him because it was a valentines card and it was dec or jan at the time...don't know where I'm going with this...other than perhaps inlight of my doing such things BEFORE the seperation...I no longer allow myself to do them now...all the nice little cards I used to buy..now I don't...all the ily's I used to say...now I don't....am I screwed? I don't know.
anyway....things really do sound like they are going well for you...it seems that when you put your fears asside and accept that most of the junk is your own (albeit a result of h's indiscretion in the past) you pull yourself up and seem to have a wonderful r with h.
LL
You are DEFINITELY a shining star! And you have been such a great inspiration to me and I thank you.
I don't post alot on other threads...mostly because I was just soaking up as much information and advice that I could.
I just wanted to thank you for all of your insight. You are wise and patient and that's how you've come so far in your sitch.
thank you!
Quoting lostlove:
I no longer allow myself to do them now...all the nice little cards I used to buy..now I don't...all the ily's I used to say...now I don't....am I screwed? I don't know.
Hey LL --
Screwed? nah. Maybe gun-shy? Perhaps it's time to leave a nice card for h? Or tell him ILY? (TBH, I didn't realize that you weren't saying that to him...or do you mean that you rarely say it?)
Quote:
anyway....things really do sound like they are going well for you...it seems that when you put your fears asside and accept that most of the junk is your own (albeit a result of h's indiscretion in the past) you pull yourself up and seem to have a wonderful r with h.
Yup. We have come A LONG WAY BABY. And, to be fair, my fears and insecurities existed before h's straying. 'course, his a hasn't made it any easier to deal with them...
when I relax, stop the mind chatter, focus on the present, HEAR what h is "saying", well, all is well.
Sage
Electra -- Thank you for these kind words!
It means a lot to know that my support system is out there....
Sage
Quote:
Hey LL --
Screwed? nah. Maybe gun-shy? Perhaps it's time to leave a nice card for h? Or tell him ILY? (TBH, I didn't realize that you weren't saying that to him...or do you mean that you rarely say it?)
sure I could leave him a nice card...sure I could tell him I love him..sure I'd get a thank you or a reciporical ily...sorry I'm not playing that way.
h doesn't say ily...
if I do say it..wich I've stopped doing...he will say something like "I know you do" pause.."and I love you too"
I'm not interested in that crap...if he doesn't want to initiate saying it own his own then I'll just go without.
LL
Quoting lostlove:
sure I could leave him a nice card...sure I could tell him I love him..sure I'd get a thank you or a reciporical ily...sorry I'm not playing that way.
h doesn't say ily...
if I do say it..wich I've stopped doing...he will say something like "I know you do" pause.."and I love you too"
I'm not interested in that crap...if he doesn't want to initiate saying it own his own then I'll just go without.
LL
allrighty...May I ask...are you upset about something going on at home right now?
Sage
Just journalling for myself...
talked to h a bunch of times today...got quite a few emails, too. He proposed a plan for us tonight...gonna meet me for drinks after he studies at school and I go to a meeting. Cool.
I need to remember to not overwhelm him with my drive towards action...it's good stuff when we both make plans and decisions.
Other very important thing...h is going out on a limb with me, too...he's vulnerable, too. It's not just me (I'll bet) that's scared...MY DOUBTS and FEARS...while I know that they are focused on me and my insecurities DON'T feel that way to him...to him, it feels like judgement sometimes...I need to remember NOT to trounce on him...to keep him safe, too. That may mean holding onto myself thru some scary times. He's done a great job reassuring me even without me asking...let me take that to heart and quiet some of the fears in my head.
Sage
Quote:
allrighty...May I ask...are you upset about something going on at home right now?
Sage
tired...just very tired...tired of the peacful coexistance...tired of not really feeling like there is a relationship here...tired of waiting...tired of not hearing h say ily..tired of h's lack of motivation to actively work on this r...tired of the fact that despite the fact that h knows and understands my needs and wants he is content to let them go unmet and sit back expecting me to be happy just because he is...tired of wanting more and never seeming to get there.
just tired sage...I don't have time or desire to pick myself apart any more than I have for the last two years (and more) I don't have the energy to assume full responsibilty for the stability of this m. I'm tired of holding the rope and wondering if there is anyone on the other end...or knowing there is someone there but they have the rope in their back pocket while they are busy taking care of everything else.
just tired is all.
I am really happy for you and shiney that your h's are opening up to you...that you are able to e-mail and spend time together and all that...really I am.
for me though...sending notes or saying such things as thank you for loving me or I hope you know I love you..don't work it's just more of the same..for me the only thing that seems to get h's attention (and of course not always) is to practically give up...it's a pathetic game of cat and mouse that has been going on now for almost 12 years and I'm pretty well fed up with it...I'd like to be a grown up and have a grown up relationship..these games are tiring...I've got better things to do with my life...sometimes I think I would be better off alone.
LL
Crapola, LL!!! We don't like seeing you down!
Why are some S's just "thicker" than others???
Sage...way to go!!! And NO, no 2X4's there was NOTHING wrong with your e-mail, as H's response clearly shows.
Nice going!
Shiny
LL,
Quote:
tired...just very tired...tired of the peacful coexistance...tired of not really feeling like there is a relationship here...tired of waiting...tired of not hearing h say ily..tired of h's lack of motivation to actively work on this r...tired of the fact that despite the fact that h knows and understands my needs and wants he is content to let them go unmet and sit back expecting me to be happy just because he is...tired of wanting more and never seeming to get there.
Did you write that LL? Or did I just say almost those same exact words less than 2 wks ago? God how I understand your frustration...I've lived it, I can FEEL your words and they make me sad because I knew that apathy all to well.
It can change though LL, I wish I knew how to show you or tell you how to make that change happen in your sitch. My heart aches for you because I do truly understand where you are coming from right now.
Hugs to you LL
T2
Sage,
You sound wonderful. For not being in one of your "up" periods, your and H's actions sound evious. Keep enjoying life.
Jackie
Jackie --
Thank you so much for the kind words! I am truly grateful at how my sitch continues to progress...
*******************
Just journalling --
I had a meeting for my volunteer job last night and h spent the afternoon at school. We agreed to meet up at our favorite drink spot -- got there and it was closed! We haven't been having good luck going there AT ALL lately but we rallied and tried out a new spot...had a nice meal and a couple of beers.
Some positives:
1. h toasted "making the most of the minimal time we have together" -- this is GOOD STUFF! Our lives are changing SO MUCH and it's wonderful that he's focused on keeping our QT full of quality!
2. Well...you saw the email and all
3. Had lots of conversation with h yesterday -- email, phone calls, etc. I love hearing from him so often.
4. Got another date with him tomorrow night
(we've got a reservations so I KNOW the restaurant is open!). and, we've got lots of good stuff over the weekend (Go Red Sox! Boo Yankees!)
It's a short day for me today but I'll check in with you all tonight...
Sage
Sage,
I have been following your posts for a little while, long before I decided to come over to piecing. I wanted to thank you for inspiring me to do just that.
It was actually something you said in your other thread that helped me make the move. You said,
Quote:
I can HEAR h sharing his thoughts and feelings and love with me. What scares me a bit is how hard I have to listen to hear it ... NOT because he's not saying it clearly but because of the the cobwebs and noise in my brain (the ASSumptions, expecations, rampant thoughts, etc.). I'm working, working, working on brushing those aside.
That struck home with me because NOW that I have my H trying so hard to work his way back to our M, I have to admit to myself that I have been stuck in the endless search for any negatives or pitfalls that might present themselves to the point that I was continuing to over look all the positives he was doing.
Thank you for helping me to step back and make myself account for THE GOOD my H is doing as I continue to WATCH for the backslides.
T2
Sage,
You sound great!
Sorry to hear about your restaurant being closed. Monkey and I had a favorite restaurant in his town. It was a diner, open 24/7 and holidays. Had a wide variety on the menu so we could eat cheap or expensive..and it was all delicious.
With him moving to my town, that Diner will no longer be ours. We'll have to find a new one.
I know, I know this could be a good thing, new growth and all that!
Anyway, I'm rambling.
Glad to see your positives!
Hugs.
Quoting Trying24now:
That struck home with me because NOW that I have my H trying so hard to work his way back to our M, I have to admit to myself that I have been stuck in the endless search for any negatives or pitfalls that might present themselves to the point that I was continuing to over look all the positives he was doing.
Thank you for helping me to step back and make myself account for THE GOOD my H is doing as I continue to WATCH for the backslides.
T2
Hey T2,
Glad to see you over here in Piecing! I've been lurking on your thread (here and in Newcomers, right?).
I'm delighted that you've found positives in my er, areas of growth....
(don't want to call them negatives!). I'm sure we'll help each other out on this bumpy path!
Sage
Hi sage, it has been a while. Good to see things are still slowly making progress for you. I don't know why, but yours is one of the cases that I always knew would end well eventually. And yes, it is not over yet, but there is so many good things going on, it is hard not to be optimistic. Thanks for checking up on me, I am doing well. Staying very busy, moving on with life.
Gotta post one of my positives for today right now...'cause otherwise I'll forget it.
h just called me. He called to thank me for being so supportive of his law school and everything it's "added" to the m. He said he loved that we were good about scheduling time to have dates and such. He mentioned a woman that he met in school who takes the same train he does told him that her husband is not supportive at all of her going back to school.
The phone call made me feel really good. I think there was a time when I would have let my fears about change get in the way of my feeling excited for my h. I'm happy to say that's not true now...of course, it helps a GREAT deal that he is being so much more open and upfront with me about how he feels. It's good -- it's a two way street.
Sage
Quote:
just called me. He called to thank me for being so supportive of his law school and everything it's "added" to the m. He said he loved that we were good about scheduling time to have dates and such. He mentioned a woman that he met in school who takes the same train he does told him that her husband is not supportive at all of her going back to school.
Sounds like your H is coming along, Sage, and that he feels comfortable enough saying these things to you. I have discovered with my W that she has trouble communicating these types of things to me, and I suspect it's the same for your H. As his comfort level grows, I'm sure he will continue to share even more positive thoughts with you...as well as his fears...thus giving you more opportunities to grow together...
jethro
"dream about my love for you. It'll be the longest dream you'll ever have".
Ah!
Sage - mo,
I really was kidding when I said it made me feel strange. I feel the same way,
Ah, Ah!!
I'm grateful as well. I love you so much! h.
Ah, Ah, Ah!!!
Jeannine
"dream about my love for you. It'll be the longest dream you'll ever have".
Ah!
Sage - mo,
I really was kidding when I said it made me feel strange. I feel the same way,
Ah, Ah!!
I'm grateful as well. I love you so much! h.
Ah, Ah, Ah!!!
Jeannine
Amen!
Shiny
And Sage, isn't it interesting that your H felt comfortable enough with you to tell you about that conversation with the female fellow student??
And that the conversation painted you in such glowing terms in contrast to HER H....that had to feel good!
I guess what I'm dancing around is that it seems to me that your H trusts in YOUR trust in him enough to mention this!
1) I think the "old Sage" might have been plagued by thoughts of him making female "friends" at school....
2) Moot point because H wouldn't have shared this with the "old Sage" for fear of wakening her insecurities
3) The "old Sage" would very likely NOT be so accommodating and supportive of H's law school efforts so he wouldn't have had anything to brag about!
You da Queen!!!
Shiny
Ditto everything Shiny said!!!
Quoting shinybear:
1) I think the "old Sage" might have been plagued by thoughts of him making female "friends" at school....
Ahem -- even the "new sage" felt some pangs at hearing about FF.
BUT, I didn't get sarcastic or controlling or ask a thousand questions or....
I listened and asked about her a bit (not in a bad way) and ....reaffirmed my thought process that I need to focus on the stuff I can control -- me!
Quote:
2) Moot point because H wouldn't have shared this with the "old Sage" for fear of wakening her insecurities
Gonna say that this is MOST definitely true.
Quote:
3) The "old Sage" would very likely NOT be so accommodating and supportive of H's law school efforts so he wouldn't have had anything to brag about!
And THIS is COMPLETELY true.
It's amazing how letting go of my sense of "control" over h has been liberating for both of us.
Quote:
You da Queen!!!
Hey, why not? Queen for at least a day!
Sage
arrgh...mini vent. Just posted on smoochie's thread over in Infidelity. I won't go into more details but arrgh!!!!
OK....positives from yesterday:
1. Y'all heard about the phone call and the wonderful expression of thanks from h.
2. I got home and h had printed out a "h daily report" which was a charming kind of "newsletter" about his day. Somebody pinch me!
3. h continues to be enthusiastic and open about school. seems to enjoy talking about it!
Got a date tonight
and I am really psyched for the weekend!
Sage
Consider yourself pinched...it's REAL!
So who is this "smoochie"...should I check it out? I am feeling a little fiesty!
Shiny
Hi Sage,
I hear ya about posting over on Smoochie's thread....I shouldn't have but I did. I asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer.
I do wish, however, that she had answered your questions.
Thanks again for visiting my site over on Infidelity these past couple of days. I feel better knowing that I'm doing the best that I can do. So what if he won't even look at me these days, things could change for me in the future.
I've started to read your threads but haven't had much time to sit here and read; maybe I'll get a chance from home. Posting is different because at least I'm typing.
I don't have any positives but hopefully I will soon.
Anyway, have a great date night and long weekend.
minnie
LOLOLOL Sage:
arrrghhhh times 10. Way back when I first came to this bb, someone listed the link to a forum called THE OTHER WOMAN, a support group for--yeah, you got it....TOW's!
I went there once to see what they were all talking about. It's enough to make you want to do the damage of an F5 twister...so um...I don't recommend it for reading material. Funny, though...something rings a bell on names. Can you believe there are all kinds of references to this bb and the Marraige Builder's site.
I'm going to have to go look again.
P.S. If I see anyone there whining about their Xboyfreind's wife humiliating them at work under the guise of having Tourette's Syndrome, I'm going to laugh myself silly!
Wish I'd have read your post first Tal...just skimmed through some of smoochie's threads and, well, I'm a little steamed. Sorry, but I guess I'm just not a "big enough" person to feel a lot of empathy there!
I'm glad you got her on that ridiculous comment about "not stopping seeing the OP since S isn't making changes" Yikes!!
Not going back there any time soon, methinks.
Shiny
Hey all, just quick journalling.
Positives from yesterday:
1. h and I went out to dinner last night -- a date.
2. h did a bunch of things around the house.
3. got another date tonight and a busy weekend planned.
SO...I dunno, h seems "off" a bit right now. Seemed that way last night during dinner, too, and definitely sounds "something" on the phone. I'm being vague because I can't really put my finger on it...stress maybe? not feeling well? tired? who the heck knows.
I'm doing great NOT reacting to it...not getting bummed or withdrawn myself.
Why not just ask him if something's up? well, frankly, that kind of asking has never gone well. or, maybe to be more accurate, it's the aftermath that doesn't go well. Also, I'm just trying to give him some emotional space. If he wants to tell me what's up, I suppose he will.
I'll see how the day goes...
Sage
sage
been following your sitch, just not posting thoughts...but i had to jump in on this one...first of all, isn't amazing how we can be in tune with other peoples sitches but not with our own??? LOL
ok - in my opinion, i would say h has a lot on his mind. this going back to school business has got to be nerve racking at this age (not that he is old or anything LOL) - i would say he is doing what any man under alot of different stressful things is doing, reverting to his cave
remember, lots of things going on in his life right now - school, making a marriage work, etc etc
your doing great, and you continue to be an inspiration for me
kitti
yep, definitely he's gone into the cave a bit - let him have that time without pressure to come out and just reflect on the so many recent postive steps you've taken together to boost your confidence that everything's just fine
(did'nt you recently gently admonish me on my thread lately for not thinking positively enough?)
Hud
I agree.
Dollars to donuts it's something to do with school, pressures, insecurities or just plain exhaustion after the "buzz" of the initial weeks.
As to whether to bring it up.... Not sure. Do so carefully if at all. Maybe just a generic query as to how the work-load is sitting with him?
Shiny
arrgh. minor backslide tonight.
met h at school. he seemed psyched to see me. we went to a cool place for drinks and dinner. all kinds of good stuff. towards the end of dinner I asked if he had spoken with a former coworker --someone whose wife just had a baby...guy would have returned to work this week. h hesistated while answering, looked quizzical, wondered aloud if he had spoken with him.
It felt weird to me.
on the way out of the restaurant I said "ya know, that felt really uncomfortable to me. as though you were tying to remember if you had spoken with "someone" or the guy himself." he said "ah." getting the tacit implication that something about the exchange made me wonder if he had spoken with ow.
He asked (good stuff) if there was anything about the exchange he could have done differently. I said "no. I wasn't blaming you for my uncomfortableness. I was just telling you how I feel."
No matter. He's wounded and not talking to me right now.
When we got home I said "do you want to tell me why you're mad?" he said (mad as heck) "who said I'm mad?" I said "sorry, I didn't mean to tell you how you're feeling. do you want to tell me what you're thinking." he said "you didn't? well. no".
okey-dokey.
I'm royally sick of this.
Sage
sorry sage,
let it go tonight, tomorrow's another day and I'm certain you'll be back on track
try to be grateful that you're so much further ahead then so many of us here (who may never even get back to where you are now)
focus on your Sox trying to get the pennant!
see 'ya,
Hud
Hi Sage,
Hope you did some tail turning and got back on your horse today!
I do think it sounds like a big step that he did actually ask if there was anything he could have done differently. Would seem to indicate a willingness to work on communication issues.
Minor backslide dahhhhling! Weighed against all the good stuff....actually except for the intimation of "ow" it kind of sounded like one of those "normal" arguments that S's have all the time...you know, in "normal marriages" (Like there IS such a thing!!
)
Okay I'm not taking any responsibility for anything I post tonight...it's 2:30 a.m. and half of my brain is already asleep.
Shiny
Crud. Just lost my insightful post(they're all insightful when they're lost in cyberspace!). Hate it when that happens.
anyway ... thanks for the support guys. Turns out that Friday's events were a positive turning point (and Pam, thank you for pointing out the positive! That h had asked how he might have done something differently!)
h was still upset Sat am. I was dreading a weekend of us sulking and moping. we had been looking forward to spending this time together! he went off to the gym. while he was gone I took a page from Shiny's book and wrote h an email -- apologized for my comment, asked if we could put things aside for the weekend, and ask him to eventually share with me why he had reacted so strongly.
h came home from the gym and went off to watch tv (he hadn't read his email). I sat in the same room and read. After a little while, h reached out and touched the back of my head...breaking the ice (thank you SO MUCH h for being able to reach out!).
we talked. I apologized for what I had said. I asked him why he had responded the way he did. He said that he was so sad that "no matter how good things get, I have laid a minefield (the affair) that will continue to trip us up." I told him that I had forgiven him...that sometimes, though, I still felt sad or scared. I told him that I had just been trying to tell him how I was FEELING that I wasn't asserting a FACT (that he had been in touch with ow). It's weird but true -- for the FIRST TIME since the bomb I was able to really distinguish a FEELING from a FACT.
He said that "this is the way I feel" is a cop out and allows the speaker to say whatever they want without regard for the other person. I jumped into the pool of self-righteousness
and said that I would go back to NOT telling him how I felt. That I would continue to manage my emotions all by my lonesome...and that I wanted SOME credit for having done that all along...noting that I had asked very little from him...had not really dragged him thru anything in the process. (I didn't say this angrily...but with a lot of sadness).
I also said that as long as we were being honest...I was still living every day wondering if he even wanted to be married to me...that last time I had asked he had said he wasn't sure (that was in March) and that I didn't want to talk about it now because I couldn't bear to hear the answer...
we talked about forgiveness. About how to ensure that this won't happen again (not entirely satisfying...).
All in all, a good conversation. I didn't sense that it was a major backslide for us.
I got up to go take a shower. H asked me for a hug. He gave me a wonderful hug then said "I love you so much. I want to be married to you forever." TA DA!!!! Another hurdle gracefully jumped. How cool is that????
The rest of the weekend was great...a couple of baseball games, a couple of movies, a few dinners, a bit of
I am a lucky woman.
Sage
I don't know about "backslide". Learning to communicate about sensitive subjects isn't easy, and to be expected that there will be a lot of fumbling around in the learning process.
I think Wolfie also has the fear that the A will always be there "like a dark cloud hanging over us".
I told him that I know he'd like it to be forever swept under the rug, but that it's a healing PROCESS. He can either help me work through the process or leave me to stew with my dark thoughts and questions alone--which ends up in blow-ups, miscommunications, and other forms of malignancy.
Some of our best, most constructive conversations have been sparked by something related to the A. As painful as it is for him, at least he has a way to do something--take some constructive action, rather than sit and stew in his own guilt and recriminations.
On my part, I've been only bringing the subject up rarely, and only if I'm really struggling with something.
I hope your H can see the wisdom of reframing the subject as a process, and that he has a great deal to do with how long the process will take!
Quote:
we talked about forgiveness. About how to ensure that this won't happen again (not entirely satisfying...).
what was unsatisfying about it?
I know myself I've tried to "get" h to assure me that this wont happen again...asked "how can we keep this from happening again" the first response I got was..."it wont"...that wasn't "good enough" for me...so I re-stated it...what can I or you or we do to ensure that it wont happen...h's response was "well if your doing something I don't like I'll speak up"..ok so thus far h has not "spoken up" (unless of course I'm complaining about him) so I suppose I should just take his word that he will speak up..
what were you looking for from h?
what did you get from h?
and btw...yes you are one lucky lady!! and your h is one lucky guy..but he already knows it!
LL
sage, despite this recent miscommunication (which happens in ALL marriages from time to time, happy or not), it sounds like things are going great. H is clearly connected with you and it sounds like this incident was more about his guilt over the affair than what you actually said.
Thanks for checking in on me from time to time. Keep up the great work you are doing and shine on!
Quoting talitsa:
I don't know about "backslide". Learning to communicate about sensitive subjects isn't easy, and to be expected that there will be a lot of fumbling around in the learning process.
Quote:
I hope your H can see the wisdom of reframing the subject as a process, and that he has a great deal to do with how long the process will take!
Tal -- Ah, your post reminded me of one of the biggest parts of the conflict/issue this time (that I conveniently forgot to mention!). One thing that h has said again and again is that the timing of when I bring this stuff up, well, stinks...and he's right. It's often when we're out someplace (or just gotten back from being someplace), usually after we've had a "good time", often late at night and often at the start of the weekend....
This is all true. I've spent some time reflecting on this...wondering why I bring these things up when I do...
Likely all of this is worthy of a separate post but...
I think I bring things up when we're out because I feel like I have a captive audience
I think I bring things up when things are going well because I get scared (it's "too good")
I think I bring things up when it's late at night because I hold it in as long as I can then kind of "explode".
I also stew on stuff for a while. In this case...while my comment WAS my reflecting on a feeling...TBH, it had also been brewing a bit...Brian's recent discovery that w was still in contact with OG had been on my mind. (not fair to h but true).
Why I bring things up at the start of a weekend is not clear...
All in all, I need to figure out how to initiate conversations with h at "better times". I think he's been trying to let me know that he IS willing to talk about things but would prefer different timing. I think I'd been stuck in the mode of him NOT being willing and therefore I think I'd been still feeling as though I needed to use "timing" to make an impact.
Sage
Quoting lostlove:
I know myself I've tried to "get" h to assure me that this wont happen again...asked "how can we keep this from happening again" the first response I got was..."it wont"...that wasn't "good enough" for me...so I re-stated it...what can I or you or we do to ensure that it wont happen...h's response was "well if your doing something I don't like I'll speak up"..ok so thus far h has not "spoken up" (unless of course I'm complaining about him) so I suppose I should just take his word that he will speak up..
what were you looking for from h?
what did you get from h?
Hey LL,
well, first off the "how can we not have this happen again" part of the conversation was mired in a bit of confusion because when I asked I was talking about the A. and h thought I was talking about the argument...
What I was looking for from h was "a plan" -- some indication that he had thought about what had let up to the a (his noting of my behaviors, his noting of his behaviors, the early warning signs, etc). Something that says...look, I've really thought this thru and this is what I think went wrong and this is what I think we could have done to stop it and ....
What I got was "it won't".
I probed a bit around that and asked how he could know that. Also asked him if his assumption upon getting married was that he would be faithful (answer was "yes") so I indirectly tried to show that "it won't" might not be enough...
My anxiety around this part is HIGH. My only negative thoughts over the last few days have definitely been around "what happens next time I start feeling afraid of a r. that h develops?"
Of course, my ASSumptions that h would be unfaithful was one of the contributing factors to problems in our m....so, that mindset ain't gonna get me anywhere!
I DO think that we've got the tools to create "a plan" ... I just don't think it's gonna be as cut and dried as some folks might execute...I don't think it'll all come together at once...maybe it's something we could talk about in MC if we were doing that ... but since we're not, I think we're gonna have to "Piece" it together...
So many things contributed...we've got to figure out how to each feel as though we have "a voice" in the m. -- figure out how to articulate the good and the bad to each other in a way that still feels ok.
I still worry that h doesn't feel as though his feelings/wants/opinions are of equal value to mine in our m....Part of that is my failure...my running roughshod over him as a means of control...but part of it feels external to me and really is going to have to come from him. I think that the key for both of us is going to be trial and error (hopefully not too much error!)...the act of cautiously asserting ourselves (maybe respectfully is better than cautiously)and seeing that it's AOK with the other.
I'm still seeing myself "rushing" thru conversations with h and not listening as hard as I should be. I think there's a part of me that does that out of fear...part just distraction...anyway, I'm working hard at really listening to what's being said. I think that will give us building blocks.
So...despite the unsatisfactory nature of this weekend's conversation in terms on this "not happening again" I think we're going to be fine...it's just that it's gonna take small steps to get there instead of rolling out some giant blueprint.
Sage
Hi Sage.
Quote:
One thing that h has said again and again is that the timing of when I bring this stuff up, well, stinks...and he's right. It's often when we're out someplace (or just gotten back from being someplace), usually after we've had a "good time", often late at night and often at the start of the weekend....
I do this too, but now (as opposed to the past) I internalize it... But I feel like these "feelings" get to me more when I'm spending more time with my W (thus, while we're out and such). Weird. But just being around her brings up all of the sh!t. Like going out to watch her sing Karaoke when that's how she met OM. As such, Karaoke reminds me of her A...even though she did it well before OM. Thus, going out to have fun reminds me of past misdeeds. I guess it comes down to focusing on making new and memorable memories, right?
Quote:
I think that the key for both of us is going to be trial and error
To be a bit philosophical, isn't it always...with everyone? I believe that's just life, Sage, and that's how we gain wisdom. Each little event will bring you closer to understanding each other.
Quote:
So...despite the unsatisfactory nature of this weekend's conversation in terms on this "not happening again" I think we're going to be fine...it's just that it's gonna take small steps to get there instead of rolling out some giant blueprint.
Well done, Sage.
jethro
The "how to make sure this doesn't happen again" issue was one I brought up more than a few times, too.
His answer was that he would always be reminding himself that he never wanted to put me, or him, or our family through "this" again.
What I did with THAT statement was turn it around in my head so that it sounded like the deterant was just not to get CAUGHT at it.
Geeez...stinking thinking, huh?
What I really wanted to know is if he'd thought each step through, ever roadsign along the way to an A, every boundary crossed...and what he could have/would do differently.
Sage, don't you think H's like ours--the ones that go through all this and stay--working on their M's are far less likely than any other guy to do it again? Our fears are probably very disproportionate to the liklihood of our H's straying again.
I hadn't thought of the timing issue yet, until you brought it up....I'll have to watch to see if I'm doing some pattern that could be done in a better way. I have learned not to put Wolfie on the spot with questions--but just ask him to think about something and get back to me with his conclusions.
Interesting run of posts there, folks.
About the timing, I suppose mine used to suck too, but CJ made it clear in an e-mail that he is most receptive when we're enjoying a nice dinner and glass of vino.
And believe it or not
, CJ and I have never had the "how do we prevent this from happening again" discussion!!!
I think for him, like your H's, it's so fresh in his mind that he would very strongly say "it won't happen again!".
I also think that the fact that CJ IS speaking up, IS telling me when I'm being controlling and such, when he feels dismissed etc. IS our insurance against this happening again.
You see, he kept all of this inside before. And before I just blithely went along treating him poorly and expecting loyalty and love...WEEELLL, I know a little better now myself!
So in SOME ways, I can see how our S's feel that the dynamics have changed in such a way that the conditions for their A's no longer exist.
On the other hand (devil's advocate that I am) I can see your point about when we all married...we all thought that would NEVER happen, didn't we? (well, maybe not you Sage...damn your MOm makes me mad!
).
Still, I feel SO much better "armed", better informed, more in touch with myself and CJ than I did in those early years.
Shiny
Wow Sage Thank you...Thank you! When you said:
Quote:
think I bring things up when we're out because I feel like I have a captive audience
I think I bring things up when things are going well because I get scared (it's "too good")
I think I bring things up when it's late at night because I hold it in as long as I can then kind of "explode".
I also stew on stuff for a while. In this case...while my comment WAS my reflecting on a feeling...TBH, it had also been brewing a bit...Brian's recent discovery that w was still in contact with OG had been on my mind. (not fair to h but true).
Why I bring things up at the start of a weekend is not clear...
All in all, I need to figure out how to initiate conversations with h at "better times". I think he's been trying to let me know that he IS willing to talk about things but would prefer different timing. I think I'd been stuck in the mode of him NOT being willing and therefore I think I'd been still feeling as though I needed to use "timing" to make an impact
You absolutely, positively spoke for ME too. I do exactly the same as you do. EXACTLY.
T2
Quote:
I'm still seeing myself "rushing" thru conversations with h and not listening as hard as I should be. I think there's a part of me that does that out of fear...part just distraction...anyway, I'm working hard at really listening to what's being said. I think that will give us building blocks.
Okay Sage, now you're scaring me...YOU are obviously me LOL...I think I will turn my mind off completely because YOU apparently can think for both of us. My God how strange that you "say" exactly what I think...amazing!
T2
Quoting shinybear:
I also think that the fact that CJ IS speaking up, IS telling me when I'm being controlling and such, when he feels dismissed etc. IS our insurance against this happening again.
I think that this is a real key to success! I think we'll get there too...
Quote:
(well, maybe not you Sage...damn your MOm makes me mad! ).
Quote:
Still, I feel SO much better "armed", better informed, more in touch with myself and CJ than I did in those early years.
Isn't it AMAZING???? The whole 180 and "doing what works" concepts are like godsends to me...(hey, Michele, if you're reading...THANK YOU!!!!)
Sage
Quoting Trying24now:
Okay Sage, now you're scaring me...YOU are obviously me LOL...I think I will turn my mind off completely because YOU apparently can think for both of us.
T2
This was laugh out loud funny.
I'm wondering if our h's have similar traits, too? I can relate to a lot of the folks here..but I've found that Talista + her h. seem to very much parallel me + my h.
Sage
I don't mean to hog so much of your thread today Sage, but I wanted to get your opinion on something.
Considering the posts that I responded to today...WHY don't we see what it is we're doing, when we so clearly know when we've done it?
Why do we continue to fall into the same pitfalls when we're so obviously in-tune with our own mistakes and shortcomings in the DB process?
I KNOW what works for my H and I and I KNOW what doesn't work too..and yet it's like I have to freakin 'retrain' at some point almost every single day it seems.
I think that there's some sick part of me that's constantly trying to sabatoge what the other part of me is so desperately trying to heal. Does that make any sense to you, can you relate to that?
T2
Quoting Trying24now:
I think that there's some sick part of me that's constantly trying to sabatoge what the other part of me is so desperately trying to heal. Does that make any sense to you, can you relate to that?
T2
OMG, hon....have you read my earlier threads?
(no prob if you haven't ... they're boring!).
For me..the answer to your question of "why do I do things that don't work..that drive me further away from h?" can be answered in a number of valid ways...depending on the sitch:
1. It's habit -- 37 years in the making and it's desperately trying to not go anywhere
2. It's comfortable -- why NOT fall upon "what I know"?
3. I'm terrified -- hey, yah, things suck but at least I KNOW why they suck ('cause I messed up)...what happens if I do all the right things and they still suck?
4. I'm terrified (part II) -- ok, I work my A$$ off and things don't suck anymore...wait...what if they start sucking again??? Yikes...I've climbed up the ladder even further??? Look at how far I have to fall NOW.
5. 'cause mom said so -- ok, a major cop out but I'm taking it -- mom said my h (whoever he was) would cheat then leave...gotta make it so.
6. 'cause mom said so (part II) -- (still a cop out) -- if MY h DOESN'T cheat then leave...well, I've surpassed mom...do I want to do that?
on and on...ad nauseum.
I strongly, firmly, totally believe in DB'ing as a way to get one on solid ground. I ALSO think, though, that to really break thru one has to do some "thinking work" as opposed to "action work" to figure out why one does what one does....I love the balance I have now 90% action (DB'ing), 10% thinking. There's value in reflecting on WHY you may be sabotaging your efforts...and in the meantime...act "as if" and "do what works" even if it goes against instinct!
Sage
Sage,
I wish you could see the tremendous smile you've put on my face today. You have been a "gift" to me today.
Thank you
HI Sage,
I was going to clarify my comment about your Mom, but if you read the last two points on your last post you'll know exactly what I was getting at!!!
Shiny
Sage and Shiney,
I need some help or consolling or something. SOMETHING. Is there something I should be doing? Is there anything I should be doing? Is there anything I can do? Visit me, please.
Holdingon in MLC
Quoting shinybear:
HI Sage,
I was going to clarify my comment about your Mom, but if you read the last two points on your last post you'll know exactly what I was getting at!!!
Shiny
well then shiny,
be mad at my mom, my dad, my grandfather, my brothers wife...and the whole rest of the fd-up world that we all grew up in that showed us to not trust. gee I wondered why I liked the x files so much "trust no one" was a key phrase.
how to put away that ole baggage and still keep safe especitally once that saftey has been breached?
suppose I can answer my own question...our saftey depends on no one but ourselves? hmmmm but if it is our own responsibility to keep safe then how can we have any true intimate relationships with others?
sorry sage....just pondering as usual.
btw....I feel so much of what you've been posting lately (the scary stuff that is) that it's almost scary...I notice some others are saying the same...I wonder...are we all somehow predisposed to such sits? do we all have some underlying connection that lead us here (not in the x-files sense) some common traits? I suppose we do. humph?
LL
hey sage,
I get the sense that much of your struggle in your M right now hinges on trust and intimacy. My guess is that you carry in your mind's eye a vision of what your perfect M with your H could or should be...what is it? How realistic is it? Is it one that he might share? Or are there parts of the vision that aren't actually attainable (because of water under the bridge, a differnce in the way your H may approach certain things, etc., etc.)
Kinda just throwing stuff out here, but as long as you're spending 10% of your R time thinking, you might as well think about your driving thoughts (and I mean here, not why you think these things (e.g. your parents, teachers, friends, previous Rs, etc.), but rather, what it is you are thinking (i.e. sage's values and motivators)).
Don't get bogged down in it, but like you told me, part of this whole DB process is finding out about yourself.
Hud
Quoting Trying24now:
Sage,
I wish you could see the tremendous smile you've put on my face today. You have been a "gift" to me today.
Thank you
T24 -- and right back at you!
Thank you for the kind words...I needed that!
Sage
Quoting shinybear:
HI Sage,
I was going to clarify my comment about your Mom, but if you read the last two points on your last post you'll know exactly what I was getting at!!!
Shiny
Yah...no clarification necessary, Shiny.
I just listened to "The Dance of Anger" (a reread for me) and it reinforced that I likely need to do SOMETHING about my r. with my mom. Right now we're in "standoff" mode at my initiation...partly because (and I told her this) I just don't feel good about seeing her, speaking with her, etc...and partly because I just cannot deal with the fact that she is involved with a married man right now.
That being said...I know that the standoff isn't healthy for me. I just really don't know how to address it right now.
Sage
Quote:
That being said...I know that the standoff isn't healthy for me. I just really don't know how to address it right now.
how about blantant honesty?
I know that with my dad...who I don't talk to often (mostly I wait for him to contact me) because I don't aprove of what he's done with his life (that inadvertantly effected the lives of all around me including my children). When I do speak to him...the topic is most often avoided...but when it does present itself (ie when he had the nerve to ask me if I would mind his ow being at vacation) I am honest about my feelings. or to put it anther way...what I told him long ago (my parents have been legally d'd now for about 5years) I think you're a jerk for what you did (are doing) but you're my dad and I'll always love you.
gotta run...son starts pre-school today!!
LL
Quoting lostlove:
suppose I can answer my own question...our saftey depends on no one but ourselves? hmmmm but if it is our own responsibility to keep safe then how can we have any true intimate relationships with others?
well...this is a constant struggle for me...on really good days, my quick answer is "because no matter what happens I'll be ok". On not so good days my answer is "the only way to be totally safe is to isolate myself in a cabin in the woods"
Struggling a bit with this one myself today...feeling some fear (back to the "things are going really well" feeling) combined with "how does this not happen again" combined with some other anxieties (job, family, school, etc).
Crap, I'm a basket case today!!!
(Just kidding)
Here's my cainer hororscope for today...always uplifting!
Why are some people so deeply opinionated? Is it because they find it so hard to sail on the sea of uncertainty? Fearful that they may capsize the craft of confidence and drown in the ocean of open-mindedness, they cling to the lifeboat of belief. Yet in holding on to our big ideas so tightly we deprive ourselves of the ability to make a genuine discovery. People who think they know everything can never find out anything. Be glad of the doubts you are now entertaining, they represent your passport to a new world of enlightenment and opportunity. so sounds like all that anxiety = BIG PAYOFF
Quote:
btw....I feel so much of what you've been posting lately (the scary stuff that is) that it's almost scary...I notice some others are saying the same...I wonder...are we all somehow predisposed to such sits? do we all have some underlying connection that lead us here (not in the x-files sense) some common traits? I suppose we do. humph?
I think that there's a diverse group of folks here but that we're drawn to particular threads because they resonate for one reason or another...I DO see similarities in lots of the sitchs over here ....maybe there's something in common for us that draws us to DB'ing? That draws us to posting on BBs?
Dunno...but I am glad (in a freaky way) that others can relate to my thoughts and that I can relate to theirs!
Sage
Hi Sage,
Asking yourself lots of questions today, right?
I have really started using that by the way. It just took forever to get through my head that it can work or at least HELP!
Giving you a hug for the help and your struggles today.
{{{{{Sage}}}}}}}}
Hey Sage.
Quote:
Quote:
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btw....I feel so much of what you've been posting lately (the scary stuff that is) that it's almost scary...I notice some others are saying the same...I wonder...are we all somehow predisposed to such sits? do we all have some underlying connection that lead us here (not in the x-files sense) some common traits? I suppose we do. humph?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that there's a diverse group of folks here but that we're drawn to particular threads because they resonate for one reason or another...I DO see similarities in lots of the sitchs over here ....maybe there's something in common for us that draws us to DB'ing? That draws us to posting on BBs?
HA! I very often wonder about this myself. I think of it one of two ways:
1) Either we're pathetic, co-dependent people who are drawn to individuals with issues due to our own pasts; or
2) We're old souls that are more willing to examine ourselves and our potential in the universe...and are thus, willing to forgive for the greater good...
I'm a bit partial to #2...
jethro
Just posting some positives from yesterday...
1. h left me an adorable note telling me about his day.
2. h called me yesterday afternoon and asked me for a date tomorrow night
3. h asked me to pick him up at the train after school...I love seeing him walking towards me!
h has school tonight and I start school again tomorrow (yikes!). Looks like I've got a date tomorrow night
Sage
Quote:
2) We're old souls that are more willing to examine ourselves and our potential in the universe...and are thus, willing to forgive for the greater good...
i like this as well...i think this is it!!!
sage...you got me looking at horoscopes these days, which i NEVER EVER did...here is mine today...(virgo)
Some things just can’t be done. Some goals just can’t be reached. Some targets just can’t be achieved. Some dividing lines just have to be drawn. Some shoulders just have to be shrugged. I say this, not to discourage you, but simply to frame the following forecast in a credible context. Knowing full well that certain things in this world actually are impossible, we must also acknowledge the other side of the coin. Amazing miracles can, and do, occur from time to time. Your great secret dream is far less of a hopeless fantasy than you fear.
i have been needing a title for a new thread, and i got it from this
my great secret dream
HA - glad to see your hanging in there. i love to see your positives. i have been a bit down lately, but i am coming back up and i am ready to start posting again
still must catch up on the rest of your story...
kitti
Kitti --
I read the Virgo hororscope every day since h is a virgo! Now I'll know what will be in store for you each day!
Sage
Hi Sage,
I hope you are still around I need some advice please. Could you stop by my thread?
HI Sage
I've been pondering those eerie similarities in many our our personalities etc and I think you (it was you I THINK) may have hit on it with the fact that we DO gravitate towards threads which resonate with us.
There are many others on here who have different issues and I find myself drawn more to those who share my own.
Of course the very reason we're all HERE will draw out similarities (doubts, trust issues, etc).
I like to think of it as a positive thing too, Jethro. I think that although we may share some neuroses, WE at least are willing to acknowledge them, search for their origins and work through them!
Shiny
Quoting shinybear:
There are many others on here who have different issues and I find myself drawn more to those who share my own.
I'm drawn to those with similar issues and also tend to be drawn to DB'ers who are here after they have had an affair and want to regain trust.
what's that called? Projection? Transference? It's one of those psych terms, right?
Sage
Yes, similar sitchs can draw us to certain threads, but for me that's not always the attraction. Sometimes it's the poster's good attitude that I admire and draw strength from (e.g. see sunseeker and KAW) - other times I like the practical, no holds-barred approach to a sitch (the great wiley or workinghard) - and finally, I need probing wisdom (provided so well by you, sage).
In fact our sitch's couldn't be more different, but perhaps our situational differences help us to provide one another with "detached" and uncomprimising advice that we may be too clouded within our own sitch's to be able to see for ourselves.
my 2 cents, anyway
Hud
i think it's all part of what is called 'universal law', in other words, the constants that are in the universe. god says the "like begets like" - those of us with similar situations are drawn to each other - so that in essense, if your situation turned out a certain way because you did "a b and c" then if i do "a b and c" then mine should basically turn out the same way.
what is interesting is that i find that to be true in regards to sage's sitch. very similar situations, and it's so funny that she NAILED it in her first couple of posts to me about needed to "reconnect" with hubby with the fun times, that would be the drawing thing. and yes my dear, that certainly has worked
interesting thoughts you all...
kitti
Quoting Hud:
hey sage,
I get the sense that much of your struggle in your M right now hinges on trust and intimacy. My guess is that you carry in your mind's eye a vision of what your perfect M with your H could or should be...what is it? How realistic is it? Is it one that he might share? Or are there parts of the vision that aren't actually attainable (because of water under the bridge, a differnce in the way your H may approach certain things, etc., etc.)
Hud -- I've been avoiding posting all day because of you!
well, just kidding...but what's up with you asking the hard questions??? (payback, I guess).
Yes, both trust and intimacy are points of struggle in my m. Have been for a while, actually, so it's probably not that surprising that they are the things still outstanding post-bombing. I do think we have more tools and incentive to address them...though the process is slow and sometimes seems mired by the stuff that got us bogged down in the first place.
The answer to whether or not I have a "picture" of m is of course "yes" -- I imagine that h does too. 'course it ebbs and flows in its "concreteness"...some stuff is flexible and some stuff is probably more etched in "stone". Likely that's the stuff that's tripping me up at times.
If you had asked me 2 years ago who was more "intimate" in our m, I would have said hands down me...I think others peering in might have said the same as well...but in truth, I think both h and I (and perhaps more me than him!) have kept our arms out straight to hold off the other...I guess I just did my withholding in more "socially acceptable" ways...but I think the pain was the same for h no matter.
As for trust...ah, trust.
well..I've had "trust issues" since early in our m...3 years into the m h had a friendship with a FF that didn't meet my "picture" of how involved a FF should be in our m. Big, big problems that polarized our stances...me in the "this is totally unnacceptable" camp, him in the "you're not the boss of me" camp. Probably a softening of either one of those stances would have avoided a lot of heartache.
'course OW also started out as a FF....when I approached h initially about my discomfort regarding their friendship I did it with all of the grace and self-deprecation I missed the first time around. h responded with all the respect he missed the first time around. I started C to address my "trust issues". The missing link was that they were already involved at the time of that first discussion.
Can you see why I'm confused?
Back to the picture...I try not to hold onto things that I assign to the "if he loved me he'd never do this" category....but maybe I'm not always successful...all in the process of forgiveness I think!
In general, I've learned a lot over the last year about letting things be...letting h be ...not seeking control...dropping EXPECATIONS and ASSumptions. Like I said...still flawed but working on it.
I guess the sensitivity to opposite sex friendships is something I'm still stuck on. Need to figure that one out, though. Something just struck me...it may just be something that we NEVER agree on. And perhaps that's just gonna have to be AOK. I won't compromise on fidelity though.
I do need to say that my m. now contains more wonderful elements than I ever thought that it could! My h is SO much more committed...so much more present...so much more open. More than he ever was. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm grateful for his resilency and hard work.
Anyway...I've got more thinking to do...
I want to think on this one a little while and get back to you with a thoughtful response, as well as a book recommendation.
Be back soon
and oh yeah, payback's are a b*tch!
Hud
Sage,
I too have such a difficult time with H having FF. My father cheated on my mother with a so called "friend"/neighbor, he divorced my mom and then married the OW. I was 8 yrs. old.
I have always been very jealous of other women being around "my man." H knew how crazy I was about the issue, so I never had to deal with it until the "bomb." I am still not sure if FF/business partner/OW was ever anything more than just a friend. I think my H can be pretty niave. H is not a flirt by any means. I like to think that FF is just a very good friend of my H. I don't like it, but the more I say, the worse it is. You know what I mean, I'm sure.
So, what is the answer? I still struggle with my insecurities. I pray alot. I ask God to banish FF from H. God knows what H is doing, not me. I try to remind myself it is not for me to worry about. It is hard. What has helped me is the fact that we are S. If OW/FF called all the time like she use to, I would go crazy, but of course, I would have to act like it doesn't bother me.
Any advice on this issue, would be appreciated by moi too!! nik
Hi Sage,
I'm very sorry for posting on your thread and I know that you usually check on me but I'd like to impose on your again. Please stop by my thread whenever you get a chance. My worst-case scenario just happened and I don't know what to do.
Thank you. Good night.
minnie
Hey Sage,
Just wanted to drop by and say thank you again.
Hope you have a GREAT date tonight. No ASSumptions creeping their way in. You seem up and on top of things this morning.
Hey Pam,
Glad I could help in even the smallest way! You are really holding it together, girlfriend!
sage
I am feeling good today. I had lots of positives from h last night and this AM -- he was so psyched to see me when I picked him up from the train, lots of really earnest ILYs and a definite interest in our date tonight! He also did a lot of cleaning around the house.
I had a mental breakthru re. the topic of trust and friendships etc but I don't have time to go into it right now. That'll keep you all coming back (LOL)
Sage
Quoting Hud:
I want to think on this one a little while and get back to you with a thoughtful response, as well as a book recommendation.
Ooooh...I can't wait.
Thanks for your help!
Sage
Quote:
I had a mental breakthru re. the topic of trust and friendships etc but I don't have time to go into it right now.
oh sure, turn me on and walk away....
LOL
kitti
LOL Sage, that's just great, you know how we all are in the "patience" department, but I'll admit, you've got me hooked so I'll be back later to catch your post.
T2
Hi Sage,
Shiny made a suggestion on my thread and wonder what you think of doing that today? See, I ASKED.
Sage,
Need help with a question over on my thread in MLC.
Thanks a bunch.
Hey guys,
have been short on posting time the last day or two...will catch up over the weekend...
positives from yesterday:
1. h and I had a great date. on the way out of the restaurant he grabbed me and gave me a passionate, knee-weakening kiss!
2. h was so animated and passionate while talking about his law future! He seems so committed to finding a path in life that he LOVES!
3. as we were falling asleep...h said "if you wake up and get scared or need me in any way, wake me up and I'll keep you safe and protected". Now, all, doesn't that speak directly to my big "issue" (ok, ok, one of them!)
meeting h in town after his class tonight. I've got a C appt which is putting me in a crabby and sad mood. don't know why.
Sage
Quote:
h said "if you wake up and get scared or need me in any way, wake me up and I'll keep you safe and protected".
Awww...
jethro
Still don't have a lot of time to post today (maybe tomorrow? h is off to watch football with a friend, I think) but I had to report a positive that occurred last night...
I met h after his class. our goal was to find a nearby bar with drinks, food and tvs to watch our beloved BoSox trample all over the hated Yankees. We succeeded in our mission.
After we were sitting there a few minutes and h was telling me good stuff from school he looked over at me and said..."I feel completely happy. I'm like wrapped in it. I love you so much and I can feel us getting stronger every day. I love school and what I'm doing..."
OK, the woman who has wanted words from h has been blessed with them multiple times this week..the above conversation and his telling me last weekend that he wanted to be m. to me.
I'm so psyched!!!!!!!!!!
Sage
so...I alluded earlier this week to having come up with a 180 for my FF "thingy". I was really feeling upset about this topic...the history is that a few years ago h had a ff and I ranted and raved and cried over their r. which I thought was too close for comfort. then, ow started out as a friend and I was calm and rational but still concerned.
I was so bummed thinking about this because I got mired in thinking "well, I've tried all the approaches I can think about -- first time I was active and railing against the r. and the second time I was calm and collected. what's left to do????"
well...enough thought led me to realize that the common theme in BOTH sitchs was that each time I distanced from h out of anxiety and fear that he was going to leave me for this person...or that something untoward was going on....
so, it's kind of that cycle that Michele talks about...yah, in the latter case things did get ugly but I REALLY think it's possible that my early anxiety and untrusting of h which led to anxiety which led to my distancing could make these FF even more attractive.
I'm NOT saying I'm responsible for h's affair. I'm not...not now not ever. but I DO know that trust and insecurity have been issues for me. And I do know that I distance in times of anxiety and fear.
so...my 180 is to not distance, to perhaps draw closer at these times of high anxiety and fear. In essence, it's to say "I'm terrified and instead of retreating to a safe place I'm gonna bust through that". Actions associated with that would be to continue doing fun things with h -- going out,
, remaining present in conversations, not sulking or withdrawing in mood, etc. Behaviors to NOT do include sarcasm, questioning, trying to control his actions, etc. Creating stories in my head, ASSumptions, too.
Now, a sort of key to this is that I'm not suggesting smiling my way through an affair...not at all ... what I'm suggesting is that I think one of the reasons why these ffs become so important is because I panic at the first sign of h developing an outside r. and I start withdrawing. see the difference?
Sage
Sage,
I think that's great and very helpful to me too! I struggle with the same issues re: FF envy, etc.. I will try to act as if H is talking about a guy friend. I will also try not to retreat. I normally ask a lot of questions and do show my insecurity. I do FEEL though, that I have alot more to offer H, than any FF, so now H just needs time to figure that out! nik
Sage,
I was just reading your thread and I saw on one post that you said things got ugly. I'm having a dreadful experience right now. My H left three mos ago and found OW last month. He moved in with her and I just found out within the last couple of days.
Things have been very ugly since. He called me with her in the background screaming all sorts of lies he told her and he hurt me more than I care to admitt. We had to switch vehicles last night and she left a pair of perfume drenched underwear in the truck.
I know he's very angry with me right now so my goal is to back off completely and see what happens. She left her H for mine and she has a baby thats barely a year old. I think either she'll kick my H out for hers or my H will leave as soon as the lusty I'm in love w/ you beginning fades. Either way I give it about 4 mos if not less.
So far she's been everything my H detests. Pushy, vindictive, and trashy. He's finding out now.
Do you think I can work through this?
sage,
This is going to sound simplistic because it is - here goes - it's wrong for your H to have close FFs or you to have close MFs - it just does no good for an intimate marriage (keep in mind, I'm saying "close" friends here - i.e. ones you share intimate things with for instance). I learned this early on from both sides in my M.
And, since we dealt with it early in our M, at least that was never a problem for us. I enjoy being around my group of male friends - it's important that I have that, just as it's important that my W has her group of FFs.
What do I really need from another FF that I shouldn't be able to get from my W and my MFs? Nothing but trouble as far as I 'm concerned.
Do you have any close MFs? I'm guessing not. How would your H like it if you did? I'm guessing not very much. So, again, simplistic, but it comes down to a matter of respect IMO.
Now, that gets me to my two book recommendations:
1) "Love Life for Every Married Couple" by Ed Wheat - this one is Christian-based, and frankly, I cannot tell if that would be a problem for you, so my apologies if it would. But it provides a pretty good blueprint for what most would consider an ideal marriage (and it specifically advises against having close friends of the opposite sex). Because I know we've discussed the pros and cons of carrying around in your head the idea of what a perfect M should be, I think this book lays it out pretty well in b&w - so if you could both read it, that'd be great.
2) "Talk Your Way to an Intimate Marriage", by Donald Harvey. The title says it all, and since one of your issues is intimacy, I highly recommend this one. By the way, this guy is my personal C right now and I'm really learning a lot from him otherwise.
Well, there you have it for now. Let me know what you think if you get around to reading them (they're obviously a little off the beaten path of DR, 5LL, Road Less Traveled and so forth, so I hope you find them interesting).
Take care,
Hud
Interesting POV Hud.
I happen to think you're onto something. I KNOW that in these "enlightened" times, we are politically incorrect in believing there is any difference between FF's and MF's for either gender.
But in MY experience (and I've been the one to have closer MF's than CJ FF's) there is always this element of sexuality. Even with MF's I've known for 35 years!!!
These were the guys offering to give me "solace" when CJ was treating me badly and ready to leave!
That was certainly not the kind of support I received from my FF's!
Of course we both have couple pals, I consider lots of men to be friends, but not with the level of intimacy that I share with #1) CJ #2) my sister #3) my FF H.
I know that one of the most painful nights for me last year was when CJ went over to H's and stayed for most of the night...at the time she was very close friends to us BOTH and CJ was sharing intimate info with her too.
We ALL realized after that night that this dynamic just would NOT work out, and although it was CJ's loss (he does not have many confidantes) it did save us a lot of grief.
JMO
Shiny
Hud -- thanks for the book reqs. I appreciate them.
Quoting Hud:
What do I really need from another FF that I shouldn't be able to get from my W and my MFs? Nothing but trouble as far as I 'm concerned.
So...I WILL get down a rathole for myself if I start thinking again "h can't have FFs" or whatever. I personally think that developing an intimate 1-on-1 relationship with a person of the opposite sex can cloud a m. sitch...so, I agree with that viewpoint.
But the quote above actually speaks directly to what I'm trying to say my 180 is...at the first inkling of h having a friendship (and I'm not saying an intimate friendship at this point) I completely panic, go into high anxiety mode and withdraw from my h. I get angry, scared, nervous, you name it. And aren't I then taking things away from h that he'll want to go seek somewhere else? Again, not to add to the simplicity but if I'm not laughing at his jokes, telling him funny stories, etc why wouldn't he want to spend more time with someone who is?
I absolutely see your point. My post was only about managing my behavior so that I'm not contributing a dimension that's gonna bite me in the A$$.
Sage
..."I feel completely happy. I'm like wrapped in it. I love you so much and I can feel us getting stronger every day. I love school and what I'm doing..."
Ah Sage. Finally. You deserve those words. I'm very happy for you.
Haven't had time to catch up on your most recent entries, but this post says all I want to hear.
Jeannine
Hi Sage,
How do you have such clear thoughts? I realized I do the same thing when I feel threatened by David's FF I withdraw and become not the person he enjoys spending time with.
So thank you for posting this so we can all see it!
I think it is so wonderful all the things your H is saying to you now!!! So great that you are finally getting the words to go with the actions!!!!!!!!!!
I have a question for you I know having read some of your threads at times you have dealt with issues that were yours and not really anything caused your H's actions. What my take is on how you handled them when it was repeat sorts of things is you just kept working on back talking your ASSumptions and logically thinking things through and sitting goals for yourself to work towards. Would that be what you would say?
I did a more of the same at the end of my visit yesterday.
And just trying to find the best way to deal with OW thoughts.
Quote:
3. as we were falling asleep...h said "if you wake up and get scared or need me in any way, wake me up and I'll keep you safe and protected".
Okay...that about puts me over the top with your H...how wonderful and perceptive was that!!!! Sage, you are well on your way to love everlasting, I am so very happy for you two.
T2
Jen,
Okay apparently your H is involved with an intellectual...
Quote:
We had to switch vehicles last night and she left a pair of perfume drenched underwear in the truck.
HELLO can you spell
COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY IMMATURE AND INSECURE? What kind of woman with any REAL self worth would do such an immature thing? What is she 12?
YES YOU can work through this...she is a short time fix to a long time problem....she WILL implode, just stand back so you don't get any of her pathetic madness on you when she does.
T2
Sage,
If you get a minute read my post from Friday's phone conversation with my old buddy...it speaks directly to the FF issue.
T2
Hi Sage,
I think your analysis of your part in perhaps making FF's More enticing (your panic, withdrawal etc) is RIGHT on the mark.
What an excellent insight, and the 180's it will breed are bound to change that entire dynamic.
I think back to the recent incident where your H shared his conversation with FS (female student). Your behaviour there told him loud and clear that he can share such things with YOU. FF's are far less likely to become "confidants" if YOU are the confidant instead!!!
Shiny
Pam --
Quoting psluke:
How do you have such clear thoughts?
It's a constant challenge! Seriously.
You know how we share the habit of negative, runaway thinking? well, we both know that it can be a detriment to our sitch, right? we get caught up in some negative story and let it run wild...our minds and bodies become convinced that the bad thing we're thinking about has really happened.
But the runaway thinking can also be a good thing if you take some time to guide yourself through the thought process. Picture a scenario where you're in runaway thinking mode...now, instead of just letting the negative thoughts run free...start asking them questions...what am I really thinking here? What am I afraid of? What am I really worried about? If you let your mind wander but still on a leash...you may find out that you know yourself better than you think you do.
I think you have some real strengths, Pam that you could work with here...you said that writing out your thoughts really helps you...you could do that in a "stream of consciousness" way to get at what you really think, feel, etc and then figure out what part of it you OWN and can change. The other thing that you've mentioned is that you have to work through a feeling...in other words, not try to talk yourself out of it. That is SO key because in order to identify what you can do to change a sitch you really have to work through all the anxiety and fear.
In order to really understand what a 180 would be for me, I had to sit with what is actually a terrifying situation for me -- the thought that h will get involved with another woman.
Quote:
I have a question for you I know having read some of your threads at times you have dealt with issues that were yours and not really anything caused your H's actions. What my take is on how you handled them when it was repeat sorts of things is you just kept working on back talking your ASSumptions and logically thinking things through and sitting goals for yourself to work towards. Would that be what you would say?
So...part of this is what I said above and part of it is training my mind...
I feel like a broken record but I truly believe that my daily meditation practice has made all the difference.
also, listening to audiotapes helps too...I think because my brain really gets it when it hears stuff (as opposed to seeing stuff).
I'm currently listening to "Women Who Think Too Much" by Susan Nolen-Hoeksema. It's essentially about the runaway thinking syndrome. TBH, I haven't found it terribly insightful about how to STOP runaway thinking (well, I'm only halfway through) but it does give some reasonable insights into why one might do it.
Another book that helped me develop more compassion for myself (and others) is "Love is Letting Go of Fear" by Gerald G. Jampolsky.
Sage
Thank you Sage!!
I am going to copy this to my thread to have it right there to remind myself of some of these suggestions.
I am DETERMINED to get a handle on these habits that run my life for me sometimes!
Yes, T2. You are correct. The girl is young and insecure. My dad found her DL in the truck and turns out she's only 21. The rest I've found about her tells me that she's everything my H detests. lol
I'm just waiting for the fireworks. She's also definitly one of those girls that will throw a brick through his windshield when he leaves.
My friend and I were talking this morning and she said this...
"He wants to party like a single person but he wants the comfort of having a relationship and he can't do both."
She's right. He's either a family man or he's not. Now I know that he can go out with his buddies once in a while..its not like we have kids but he could be more responsible about it.
I don't really know what to make out of it. I'm not going to be rude or vindictive. I'm not even going to say anything about her. Right now I'm just trying to plod along and concentrate on the changes I need to make.
I just hope she hurries the imploding along.
On the issue of FFs and MFs:
I used to like that Wolfie had female friends. I thought it showed that he honestly liked women and didn't just see them as objects.
Now I know that he has a REAL problem with boundaries concerning any FFs.
I don't really have that problem. I have 3-4 close MFs, but they all have some things very much in common. They are all men with a great deal of integrity and are strongly committed to their wives and families. I don't think I'd like them if they weren't that way. If there were any flirting going on, I don't think I'd want the friendship(s).
Their wives know me and know for a fact that I'm not a threat, and in fact I'm a strong supporter of their marraiges.
I guess it's about boundaries to me.
Quoting talitsa:
On the issue of FFs and MFs:
I used to like that Wolfie had female friends. I thought it showed that he honestly liked women and didn't just see them as objects.
Now I know that he has a REAL problem with boundaries concerning any FFs.
Does Wolfie agree that he has issues with boundaries?
Have you guys discussed how to handle it in the future?
I don't have the answers to any of this for myself and my m. It's a tremendous source of anxiety for me right now...really the thing that makes my heart pound and my head get light....
what I'm trying to impact is actually the only thing that I CAN...my reaction...my anxiety...my thought-process...my 180s, etc. In my m, dropping the rope seems to work amazingly well for so many things...no longer trying to edit or control what h is doing. Well, that plus appreciating the things that he IS doing. I have to believe that that this is a good model for the future, too.
Sage
Just make sure that "dropping the rope" doesn't mean you cut off communicating with H about problems, etc.
Now, obviously, you don't want to do it all the time, or even all that much. But bottling up stuff every time is no solution.
I know you know this, but sometimes being reminded of the obvious doesn't hurt.
Remember... the goal here is INTIMACY. Go get 'em!!!!
Hud
Quoting Hud:
Just make sure that "dropping the rope" doesn't mean you cut off communicating with H about problems, etc.
You're right, Hud. Thanks for the reminder. There's a balance between my taking ownership for my own stuff, dropping the rope so he can do what he needs to do AND feeling as though I can bring things up...of course, it's the latter that I struggle with the most, I think.
Of course, bringing things up in a respectful and positive way does let h know that I trust him to work with me to solve problems...that's good stuff!
Sage
Quoting Trying24now:
3. as we were falling asleep...h said "if you wake up and get scared or need me in any way, wake me up and I'll keep you safe and protected".
Okay...that about puts me over the top with your H...how wonderful and perceptive was that!!!! Sage, you are well on your way to love everlasting, I am so very happy for you two.
T2
T2 -- Thanks so much for the kind words! Yes...it's amazing to me what I am hearing from h now...SO much openness and love.
He mentioned keeping me safe again yesterday...I don't know how he knows that this has been a bigger trigger for me but his insight into it is lovely and loving.
We had a great weekend. Hiking, relaxing watching both the Red Sox and Pats yesterday, going to a movie last night, etc. We're both in school tonight but we've shared some great phone calls today.
One thing that I'll admit is perplexing me is that I don't feel as though I'm DOING much to show him how much I love him. And yet, I can only say that the results have been stupendous! I'm not sure if I'll explain this well but there's a part of me that thinks that my calming down, slowing down on action, working on my anger, accepting h totally for who he is...all THAT is what's working...but since it's so much caught up in feeling not doing...it feels weird!
Maybe it's about creating an environment where he feels as though he can be who he really is...
Sage
I have a feeling that creating the environment is a BIG answer for both of us!
Sage, isn't the act of not doing something still an action that takes energy? Geez, that sounds very Zenlike, doesn't it? (hahahaha)
For me it certainly is, takes more energy than I have a lot of times!
Quote:
Sage, isn't the act of not doing something still an action that takes energy? Geez, that sounds very Zenlike, doesn't it? (hahahaha)
falls in the same realm as "if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice"
LL
Re the FF friends issue: yes, we've talked extensively about several times that the boundary issue has led to problems. Part of the problem seems to also be that he's a bit (ahem!) naive about the average female.
I think he's been through a fairly hard-learned lesson though. So have I. I think if I start to hear any particular woman's name mentioned often in regard to his work, I will pay close attention and may even ask questions.
Other than that, we've had some fairly detailed talks i.e. he says that if he's having email "friendships", having lunch alone with female coworkers, or anything else that he knows I would be ticked off about--he shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
"Maybe it's about creating an environment where he feels as though he can be who he really is..."
That is exactly what H says he has always missed in our M. H said that he never felt like he could be himself with me. I continue to show H he can be himself with me. I try to not be demanding, controlling or judgemental now. It seems to be working, but VERY slowly. nik
Quoting talitsa:
Sage, isn't the act of not doing something still an action that takes energy? Geez, that sounds very Zenlike, doesn't it? (hahahaha)
it sure as heck takes energy for me!!!
When the bomb first dropped, I was paralyzed. I didn't DO anything...or make any overtures or decisions because I just couldn't figure out what the right thing was to do. then, I found DB'ing and realized that for me, a 180 is not doing something...but it can still be hard for me not to talk, do, create, buy, whatever...some action!
Quoting nikatnight:
"Maybe it's about creating an environment where he feels as though he can be who he really is..."
That is exactly what H says he has always missed in our M. H said that he never felt like he could be himself with me. I continue to show H he can be himself with me. I try to not be demanding, controlling or judgemental now. It seems to be working, but VERY slowly. nik
Hi Nik,
Yes..it's good that your h told you, no? My h said it as "It's never felt right". I'm ASSuming but with time I've figured out that he likely means "I've never felt like I can be me".
I regret how much I tried to control/change him. it's liberating to let him be...and you know what??? Who he is is pretty darned awesome! I couldn't see that while I was so busy telling him what he SHOULD be doing, how he SHOULD be doing it, etc.
Sage
had a great night. 1st class of Macro. I was worried about it (since I hated Micro) but the teacher is awesome. He did a great job explaining the material so I'm feeling pretty good.
H had school too but we sent some emails back and forth.
Last night after we were both home he said he loved having an email conversation! Very cool.
He just called a while ago and asked me out on a date for tonight.
He's got a study group at school and we're going to meet afterwards. I had told him earlier that tonight was going to be my "relaxing" night and he was worried that meeting him for drinks would be in opposition to that! DUH! (just kidding). I can't think of anything better.
Sage
Sage,
This so great to read, that all of the work you have put in is finally REALLY paying off!
Hi Sage,
I'm visiting your thread for inspiration! I like to read some of the "piecing" threads; lets me believe that I too can be here one day.
You just nailed it with this message: I don't think I've ever completely allowed my H to be himself. I always tried to control him or make excuses for him to other people when he didn't behave just as I thought they thought he should. Does that make sense? In the past few weeks I've come to realize that what matters is that you are loved the way I was and not what other people think you should be or where other people think you should be. It may be too late for us but I'm glad I FINALLY realized it regardless.
Thanks again for all your help and support.
minnie
Quoting minnie1:
I don't think I've ever completely allowed my H to be himself. I always tried to control him or make excuses for him to other people when he didn't behave just as I thought they thought he should. Does that make sense?
Perfect sense because I've lived it.
I honestly don't know WHY I'm able to do this now...I guess a combination of almost losing what I love (who I love) coupled with some wonderful books and meditation and my friends here on the board but...it's just so much easier to just BE and to just let him BE. It's amazing to me that I ever thought it would work another way.
Three books I would recommend to anyone interested are:
1. Love is Letting Go of Fear by Gerald G., Jampolsky
2. Men are from Mars...John Gray
and
3. The four agreements -- Don Miguel Ruiz
Ah, I guess I'd add the "Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman too.
I don't want to give ANYONE the impression that I'm stepford wiving my way around my house...
It's more that I've realized that I can only control the stuff I'm doing. And, it's also about just not getting riled up about some of the littler stuff..oh, and a whole bunch of other things.
I figure it was a darned good lesson to learn no matter what the outcome of my m.
Sage
PS "DR" is obviously # 1 on my list and goes without saying!
Hi Sage,
Thanks for the book recommendations. I have so much reading and posting to do! I've read the Five Languages of Love but I don't have any of the others.
All this work stuff certainly gets in the way of my personal growth.
minnie
minnie
hey sage
just wanted to stop by and thank you for stopping in on my thread. as you noticed i am having a hard time with negativity these days but you helped me by asking me to come up with three positives for myself, which i did, so thank you
also - i have a question for you. can you remember 3.5 months post bomb, and how you were feeling? i was doing really well there for awhile not thinking about the affair or concentrating on the OW yet over the last two weeks i have been having dreams again and i find myself focusing on how FOOLISH they both made me feel during all the time i thought they were doing something and they talked me out of that thinking. i think i have nailed my negativity on "feeling like a fool"
i just want to cry when i think of any joy they might have gotten out of "well, we fooled her again, she believed us again" and them doing whatever affair people do. that just sickens me to the point of wanting to yack.
yup, thinking i am the fool, that is where i am right now - bringing tears.
did you go thru this?
kitti
Quoting kewlkitti:
also - i have a question for you. can you remember 3.5 months post bomb, and how you were feeling? i was doing really well there for awhile not thinking about the affair or concentrating on the OW yet over the last two weeks i have been having dreams again and i find myself focusing on how FOOLISH they both made me feel during all the time i thought they were doing something and they talked me out of that thinking. i think i have nailed my negativity on "feeling like a fool"
i just want to cry when i think of any joy they might have gotten out of "well, we fooled her again, she believed us again" and them doing whatever affair people do. that just sickens me to the point of wanting to yack.
yup, thinking i am the fool, that is where i am right now - bringing tears.
did you go thru this?
kitti
Kitti....yes. I did go through that. Hell, I sometimes still go through it. It's interesting that you bring this up because I realized the other day that while I'm doing well forgiving h the actual r with ow, it's the lying and coniving (both of them since I know ow, too) that still eats me up. Definitely the "feeling like a fool" feeling. I recently passed the "anniversary" of what was probably the height of their scheming...that was a bigtime toughie for me.
I don't want to scare you but the feeling of not being so focused on ow and the a, etc is actually still fairly new for me. Well...I've gone through many positive cycles in the last 10 months but I was VERY cyclic (bouncing between positive and negative) until fairly recently (in the last 2 months?).
So...sweetie...at 3.5 months I was fully embroiled in the ups and downs...seeing the positives one day and feeling back enmeshed in the a and its aftermath the next.
I still get really, really sad sometimes.
(Friday I didn't post much because I was so sad) but it did definitely heal slowly but surely.
There were times when I tried to pull myself out of the negativity and times when I knew that I just had to sit with it. One thing I learned, though, is to try to keep the "stories" you tell yourself to a minimum (NOT easy). Feel sad and whatever else you want but if you can avoid spinning some yarn, I think your mind and body will be better off.
You've been through a horrendous thing, Kitti. I've seen it called a "trauma" and the aftermath compared to "post traumatic stress". I don't think either assertion is incorrect.
Sage
Sage,
Thank you for this post to Kitti. I didn't realize you felt that foolish feeling. I think in some ways that gets me more than some of the rest! That she kept being nice to my face and coming over here and acting like she was still my friend!
I have also found WHEN I can stop myself telling stories to myself I do deal with the feelings faster and just in general do better.
Sage & Kitti:
I think that the "feeling like a fool" and "being made a fool of" is one of the biggest parts of the humiliation I have felt.
I've recently identified that the feeling of being humiliated is one the things that fuels pain, anger, and mistrust in a big way.
In reality, though, I didn't choose to go outside of our relationship or do any of the other really ugly thing that A's are made up of.
In reality, H never intended to cause me humiliation.
In reality, the feeling of foolishness and humiliation has more to do with my own ego and also worrying about what OTHER people may think about my sitch.
Tal,
Quote:
In reality, the feeling of foolishness and humiliation has more to do with my own ego and also worrying about what OTHER people may think about my sitch.
Yep, my sentiments exactly!
T2
Hi Tal,
THAT is a really good point that I intend to remember.
It helps thank you for posting that thought.
Quoting psluke:
I didn't realize you felt that foolish feeling. I think in some ways that gets me more than some of the rest! That she kept being nice to my face and coming over here and acting like she was still my friend!
Pam -- Goddness! My thread is filled with angst and sadness and irritation and anger and all that crud! I think you're being swayed by my "3 positives"
In my sitch the ow went out of her way to befriend me...emails, chit chat, etc. She emailed me once about whether or not I was uncomfortable with her going to some event that the wives weren't invited to ("I won't go if any of the "wives" are uncomfortable). I know now that the appropriate answer is: Well, are you having an affair with my h? If so, I am uncomfortable.
h tells me that he has no idea why she sought me out so aggressively. (Um, because she's a narcissistic freak? Oh, wait, that's my answer).
Sage
Got myself mired in sadness last night...of my own accord...but it impacted my night with h so I'll journal it here.
Had a bunch of things on my mind yesterday...some sad threads here on the BB, some not so great memories of this time last year. I was feeling overwhelmed by work and school, too. Went to the library and stumbled across the book "Not Just Friends" -- it's on my list of things to read but I'm just not ready right now -- it's essentially about protecting your m. from infidelity, healing from betrayal, etc. It's very focused on the establishment of boundaries in terms of outside friendships. Y'all know this is at the forefront of my mind right now...anyway...I flipped through it, freaked myself out a bit.
I got home and for the first time in a L_O_N_G time I felt suspicious and unsure...I dunno...the house smelled like cigarettes (or was it from the toaster oven? our new neighbors smoking outside???)-- who would be in the house that smokes? I went into high anxiety mode -- haven't been there in a while -- and started focusing on all that I don't know and can't control. Yikes.
THEN, I did myself the disservice of watching the end of a girly movie...you know the kind...when the hero and heroine overcome the obstacles and end in a passionate embrace. The key word there is passionate. TBH, I haven't been experiencing as much, um, passion as I would like...it's been something I've been mulling over as a "new DB goal" and I haven't really figured it out yet.
Anyway...you can see where I'm going:
afraid
mired in thoughts of a
mired in thoughts it will happen again
feeling physically undesirable and "not enough" or "not something for h"
Met h for drinks. He talked about school
and his study group. I wanted to ask questions about the people in it but felt like I would sound controlling or jealous. He asked about my day (a positive! he's doing that all the time lately). I felt boring and stupid answering.
I made some leading comment about S-E-X. I felt like he looked at me as though I had rocks in my head. How am I supposed to learn how to flirt with my h if comments like that fall flat? Note to self...not the kind of flirting h wants????
Got home. Felt tired, sad, unloveable, scared, whatever.
Went to bed and cried a few tears. H noticed and asked what was wrong. I said "Nothing. I just had a long day." (trying to be sensitive to the fact that he doesn't like these conversations late at night). He said "I had a long day too but I'm not crying".
Tiptoed around each other this morning until it was time to leave. I gave him a kiss goodbye and said "I'm sorry about last night". He said "are you allright?". I said "I'm ok. Don't worry about it." He said "OK. Well, I'll probably still worry a little".
So...I think it's good that I cram all of my crappy DB'ing into one day -- don't you????? Runaway thinking, ASSumptions, EXPECTATIONS, MIND READING, being passive-aggressive, crying, focusing on past and future (not present), doing what DOESN'T work.
Question is....should I bring any of this up with h? I wanted to say to him last night "look, I'm gonna get sad sometimes and I don't want to have to apologize for it". I even tried to count the number of times I've cried in his presence in the last year (4?). But...he's NOT being a jerk...he wanted to know what was up...
How do I say:
sometimes I still get mad/sad about the past
I'm still very worried about the future -- "it won't happen again" is not a good enough answer for me
I'm worried about our
life
etc.
The answer is, of course, that I won't go steamrolling ahead and tell him all of these things...is there something I can tell him, though?
Inquiring minds want to know,
Sage
Quote:
The answer is, of course, that I won't go steamrolling ahead and tell him all of these things...is there something I can tell him, though?
sorry sage,
the only answer I have for you is that it seems when these things are left unsaid things go much better. Even letting h know that it's still there from time to time despite all the good stuff doesn't go over to well...there are some who are ok talking about the junk, reflecting, openly "getting over it" together while others just give the intial convo and expect the rest to all fall into place.
I think that things have been going extremely well in your sit..your h is loving and attentive and so many other things...let his actions show you that things are better that there is nothing to fear...ok so there will never be NOTHING to fear but I'd say right now the junk you are feeling is your own yes a result of h's indiscretion but still your own junk.
let's not forget the words you heard last week "if you wake up and are scared, wake me and I'll keep you safe"
that among the many other things you're hearing and seeing sage should say something to you.
LL
Hi Sage,
I'm not sure you should share right now as you may still be emotional and not deal with it as well in the sharing as you would with a little more distance or time from the feelings, maybe if you do share anything do it in an email that you can take lots of time writing and rereading and deciding if you even want to send!
I still think must be something to this full moon thing! I'm a wreck today and you have been just cruising along lately and you have bad day! Then there's Shiny, and Kitti and Puck and Tal.
So maybe I need to stop reading and do something else for a day!
I sure hope you have a great day today!!!
{{{{{Sage}}}}}}
Afterthought here, have you read Romancing your Husband? Kim talked about it on her thread and said it is a good book. I haven't read it, don't know if any flirting techniques in it or not!
Sage,
You said that the book,
Quote:
"Not Just Friends"
, made you
Quote:
freak out a bit
. Would you mind saying what about what you scanned in that book freaked you out? I ask because I have become gun shy about reading since so many of the books spin my head and heart around. I guess I'm not ready to deal/face some of the truth/reality of the intricacies of all this insanity.
Also, you wondered if you could say to your H:
Quote:
"look, I'm gonna get sad sometimes and I don't want to have to apologize for it".
I think you absolutely can say it and should. I have said that to my H because I felt he needed to know that my occasional wistful sadness in his presence is ME dealing with the demons and NOT something he's doing presently. I think letting him know that has help illeviate(sp?) his 'flight' mechanism at those times.
T2
OK, I need help...
I've been invited to a baby shower for one of the wives in h's "group" (of which ow is part of). There is a good chance that she will be invited and will go. My first inclination was to just go. I like the woman the shower is for...she's actually going to be moving away (far) soon and I also missed her wedding shower (for other reasons). I haven't seen ow since right before the bomb (actually at this woman's wedding, I think!) and I was feeling ok about going and not losing it.
I was just about to send an rsvp saying "I'll be there" and it has occurred to me that I just don't think I can do it...not because I'll lose it or anything but just because I really don't want to see her. not now, not ever. There was a time when I thought that I DID want to see her but I really, simply don't want to.
I don't know why I need support and approval on this...it feels right to not go. but I guess there's a part of me that's wondering?
Anyway...I guess I'm just blathering.
Sage
Quoting lostlove:
the only answer I have for you is that it seems when these things are left unsaid things go much better. Even letting h know that it's still there from time to time despite all the good stuff doesn't go over to well...there are some who are ok talking about the junk, reflecting, openly "getting over it" together while others just give the intial convo and expect the rest to all fall into place.
LL -- actually, it's a relief to hear you say this...there are times when I think I get caught up in the "there's something wrong with you if you can't talk about this stuff" world -- even though I KNOW that NOT having R talks works better for us...and even Michele says "you don't have to talk about every feeling"....
Quote:
I think that things have been going extremely well in your sit..your h is loving and attentive and so many other things...let his actions show you that things are better that there is nothing to fear...ok so there will never be NOTHING to fear but I'd say right now the junk you are feeling is your own yes a result of h's indiscretion but still your own junk.
I don't know what you could possibly mean by that
Thanks, LL. I think you're right on the money.
Sage
Quoting psluke:
Afterthought here, have you read Romancing your Husband? Kim talked about it on her thread and said it is a good book. I haven't read it, don't know if any flirting techniques in it or not!
I haven't! Let me put it on "the list".
Thanks for looking out for me, Pam!
Sage
Sage my .02,
The shower ISN'T about you, your M, the OW etc. It is soley about the celebration of your gf's imminent blessed event.
The expectant mother IS your friend, and as your friend you 'owe' her (perhaps to strong a word) the 'gift' of your presence at the shower.
There's nothing that says you have to interact with OW or stay for the full duration of the party. You can enter with a huge hug and hello to the 'mom-to-be' and espouse your regrets that you can't stay long because you or you and H have another engagement in another hour of so.
That way, you've shown your face, stood there proudly in the devil's space and been gracious to your friend.
Ultimately you must do what will feel RIGHT for you. But know that if YOU don't go and she does...she gets to feel smug in her ability to force you out.
JMHO
T2
hmmmmm...a toughie....me I'd go and be proud..be strong...be there and welcomed by the other wives...a place you belong..from what I gather the other wives DON't like her all that much anyway and it would be HER who felt uncomfortable as she should!
if you can go and realize the above then by all means GO...but if you are not at a place yet where you can shut her out and ignore her then you'll have to miss out.
me I'd go just for the evilishness about it...I'd go and be as cheery and comfy as possible with the other wives and ignore her...not even give her the decency of eye contact...but we all know I'm a tad evil.
LL
Quoting Trying24now:
Would you mind saying what about what you scanned in that book freaked you out? I ask because I have become gun shy about reading since so many of the books spin my head and heart around. I guess I'm not ready to deal/face some of the truth/reality of the intricacies of all this insanity.
T2
Sure...it's gonna be somewhat of a stream of consciousness, though...
I guess what freaked me out (and I really only skimmed some of the chapters) is what I'd call the tremendous and sometimes insurmountable obstacle of healing from this hurt (both of us, actually) and keeping it from happening again.
I think I was already feeling overtired and stressed out and all of a sudden, I just felt this tremendous burden of having to keep this "ship" righted all by myself. And I just had this feeling of "crap. I really don't know if I have the stamina to do this". I dunno -- to keep all the I's dotted and the T's crossed...to keep "on lookout" for signs ardently enough that I'll spot trouble but NOT SO ardently that I cause it. So, to strike the balance between careful attention and paranoia. THEN, when I start thinking about THAT I start remembering the powerless, painful, out of control, sad, horrible feeling of LAST YEAR AT THIS TIME when I KNEW that h was involved in an a, confronted him on it and got lies. So...I think I got caught up last night in "crap...what if I DO feel that way again? how will I stand it? what will I do? how will I know?"
Now...all of this is negative thinking, runaway thinking, catastrophizing, projecting into the future, etc etc. Not good stuff. I don't think it's that I'll NEVER be able to read the book...just that for a whole bunch of reasons (stress, anniversary of height of lying by h during his a, my own "junk", etc) I just can't do it right now.
I need to get to the place (and I've visited! I just haven't established permanent residence) where I KNOW some things -- that I'm responsible for my part of the m, that I'm responsible for my fidelity, not h's, that I'll be OK no matter what, that we BOTH have grown from this experience and no matter what else happens it will NEVER be the same thing, that ... you get the point.
Sage
Quoting sage:
I think I was already feeling overtired and stressed out and all of a sudden, I just felt this tremendous burden of having to keep this "ship" righted all by myself.
Replying to my own post...how lame...
I did want to say that much of the time I realize that in no way am I keeping the m afloat alone...h has been busting his butt, growing, reaching out, reinforcing, all kinds of wonderful stuff.
What I got hung up on last night was the "how will we keep this from happening again?", "It just won't" conversation that we had...combined with the book which read like "if you can't do these 10 things you are DOOMED" and I just freaked.
What I need to do is take a step back (heck, I'll take two) and see all the things that h is doing to work on "this not happening again" and NOT get hung up on needing to HEAR something just right from him.
Same old bad pattern, slightly different topic.
Sage
Quote:
Same old bad pattern, slightly different topic.
it becomes less and less of a pattern each time you recognize it and take hold of those feelings before you let yourself get to a point where you're draggin out the suitcase
. You're working hard at breaking all the patterns sage...try not to look at the yuck that presents itself as same old pattern instead look at how much better you are at dealing with it.
or rather (ok so I'm getting a clue that I tend to say the same thing like 3 times within my posts to everyone) it's not a pattern per se' but more a recognition of yourself...where it becomes a "pattern" is when you allow yourself to walk the same crappy path again and again wich you are NOT doing! so no pattern!
LL
hey - stop that! you're not lame!
Just keep working on the positives and let the negatives flow on by (you told me something similar once).
Speaking of lame, in trying to keep my promise of not posting on my thread, I'll use yours to say that some interesting stuff's happened to me the last 36 hrs!!!
We'll see. Off to the Big Apple - hang tough my friend!
Hud
Quote:
hmmmmm...a toughie....me I'd go and be proud..be strong...be there and welcomed by the other wives...a place you belong..from what I gather the other wives DON't like her all that much anyway and it would be HER who felt uncomfortable as she should!
if you can go and realize the above then by all means GO...but if you are not at a place yet where you can shut her out and ignore her then you'll have to miss out.
me I'd go just for the evilishness about it...I'd go and be as cheery and comfy as possible with the other wives and ignore her...not even give her the decency of eye contact...but we all know I'm a tad evil.
I wholeheartedly agree with the evil LL.
You can borrow my Tourettes Syndrome for awhile if you need to! Bwahahahahah!
Here's a thought...bet OW will back out because she KNOWS she'd be the one on the "outs" with the group.
I wonder if you need to worry about seeing her at all!
And Sage, Oh can I relate to the pile up of anniversary stuff, feeling overwhelmed...
(((((((((((((Sage))))))))))))))))))
In MY case as CJ has made it clear that he DOES want to know when and why I'm down, I DID send him an e-mail explaining why I was so upset. He took it very well, and as T2 pointed out, it saved him from worrying that it was something else.
And your H DID say that if you woke and were scared he would be there for you? Did he just mean to hold you, or was that a metaphor for more?
But YOU know best what works in your sitch. And about that book...ANYONE who paints a "you must do.... or you're doomed" picture just sounds rather quacky to me.
Hang in there, it's just time for a little dip for lots of us, it seems.
Shiny
Quote:
me I'd go just for the evilishness about it...I'd go and be as cheery and comfy as possible with the other wives and ignore her...not even give her the decency of eye contact...but we all know I'm a tad evil.
Hey, for added effect you could say "do I know you?" like she really is absolutely NOTHING to you.
GO!!!!
Hold your head up HIGH! She is the OW and I am sure everyone knows it... Go just so the other women can gossip about the drama! YOU are the wonderful human who forgave her H for a MISTAKE that he made. SHE is still who/what she is... (pick whatever name you want). Don't give her power for a MOMENT to keep you away from a friend of yours. I would bet she won't come.
I'm starting a new thread...
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