This, That and The Other - 02/06/14 04:22 PM
Time for a new thread.
We need some robust discussion here.
We need some robust discussion here.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/06/14 04:24 PM
Wonka, this is not supported by the evidence.
I can't do a real answer right now (real life needs my attention right now) but will be back later.
Quote:
Depression does not hurt you or any other people but the person who experiences it.
I can't do a real answer right now (real life needs my attention right now) but will be back later.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/06/14 11:02 PM
I'm going to try and make my response brief because these are really big, multifactorial issues.
I think there were 3 questions, the one above and do I equate depression with cancer and can people give boundaries to people with cancer (or people with other illnesses).
For the first question, depression does affect the family a friends and there are a lot of good studies that indicate this. Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.
Children are also affected by a parents depression and have various behavioral and stress issues, including depression of their own. We could also link the effects of divorce on children to this. There studies that show the negative effect of PPD on the cognitive, social and physical development of infants/young children.
In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family. If my H had an STD, I would have a boundary until he got treated and had a test of cure. If I lived with someone with a communicable disease, there would be a boundary until they were successfully treated. Why would we treat depression differently
In the case of depression, I would get guidance and support from a T.
About depression and cancer...this one brought back memories cause I pulled out that chestnut with my H when he dropped the bomb "If I had cancer would you leave me? I'm depressed, I can't help it!" Yeah, I got all victimy.
He did exactly what he needed to do to protect him and to wake me up to how far in a hole I was. I was a depressed, angry, resentful b!tch. I was already in T but his boundary made me take a really long, honest look at myself and kick it into high gear.
Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse. There's lots of stuff out there about caretaker stress and there is also some support for families of people with cancer. There's very little support for families of people with depression.
The bottom line is, no one has to live with abuse. Being ill with anything doesn't confer carte blanche to abuse others. The way we deal with people who abuse is to set and enforce strong, clear boundaries.
I think there were 3 questions, the one above and do I equate depression with cancer and can people give boundaries to people with cancer (or people with other illnesses).
For the first question, depression does affect the family a friends and there are a lot of good studies that indicate this. Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.
Children are also affected by a parents depression and have various behavioral and stress issues, including depression of their own. We could also link the effects of divorce on children to this. There studies that show the negative effect of PPD on the cognitive, social and physical development of infants/young children.
In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family. If my H had an STD, I would have a boundary until he got treated and had a test of cure. If I lived with someone with a communicable disease, there would be a boundary until they were successfully treated. Why would we treat depression differently
In the case of depression, I would get guidance and support from a T.
About depression and cancer...this one brought back memories cause I pulled out that chestnut with my H when he dropped the bomb "If I had cancer would you leave me? I'm depressed, I can't help it!" Yeah, I got all victimy.
He did exactly what he needed to do to protect him and to wake me up to how far in a hole I was. I was a depressed, angry, resentful b!tch. I was already in T but his boundary made me take a really long, honest look at myself and kick it into high gear.
Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse. There's lots of stuff out there about caretaker stress and there is also some support for families of people with cancer. There's very little support for families of people with depression.
The bottom line is, no one has to live with abuse. Being ill with anything doesn't confer carte blanche to abuse others. The way we deal with people who abuse is to set and enforce strong, clear boundaries.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/07/14 03:04 PM
Bug,
I'm glad that there's room for some good, robust discussion here.
Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.
This seems to suggest, to me, that it applies to long-term depression. Perhaps clinical, chronic depression. Not the short-term depression that is in tandem with MLC.
In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family.
My issue is the type of boundary that you suggested in Melissa's thread. If I recall correctly, it was this: "I cannot be with you until you seek treatment." To me, you are implying that you will divorce your spouse unless he/she seeks treatment. It does not show unconditional love. The spouses do NOT choose depression. They don't go to the local store to buy liquor nor seek a dealer to get street drugs. A huge difference right there.
Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse.
One needs to separate the condition (cancer, depression, etc.) from behaviors. Rude and disrespectful behaviors do need to be nipped in the bud irrespective of the person's situation. Which is why I urge the LBS in their posts not to tolerate such rude behavior out of fear. See the difference?
I'm glad that there's room for some good, robust discussion here.
Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.
This seems to suggest, to me, that it applies to long-term depression. Perhaps clinical, chronic depression. Not the short-term depression that is in tandem with MLC.
In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family.
My issue is the type of boundary that you suggested in Melissa's thread. If I recall correctly, it was this: "I cannot be with you until you seek treatment." To me, you are implying that you will divorce your spouse unless he/she seeks treatment. It does not show unconditional love. The spouses do NOT choose depression. They don't go to the local store to buy liquor nor seek a dealer to get street drugs. A huge difference right there.
Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse.
One needs to separate the condition (cancer, depression, etc.) from behaviors. Rude and disrespectful behaviors do need to be nipped in the bud irrespective of the person's situation. Which is why I urge the LBS in their posts not to tolerate such rude behavior out of fear. See the difference?
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/07/14 05:42 PM
I dunno, Wonka. I see what both of you are saying and agree with points made by both of you.
Since my XH's family is littered with diagnosed but untreated depression, I see some huge similarities between them and my heroin addicted brother. Yes, they are illnesses, but yes, they can be treated with medication and therapy. I'm going to leave illness created depression, which is kind of a different horse in this corral, out of my discussion.
I will not have a R with my brother any longer while he's using. That's my boundary. I also will not stay at my parents' house when he moves back with them. Another boundary. Fortunately for all of us, he's in jail somewhere. My mom finally found her limit and kicked him out. I can't tell you how awful it had to get for her to do it - he did something heinous and criminal and she couldn't handle it anymore. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.
Unconditional love should first go to ourselves. If the depressed person negatively affects the family, I have to agree with Bug that it's acceptable to place boundaries there. I didn't hear her advise Melissa or anyone else that they'd have to D someone. Maybe separate for awhile isn't a bad thing, though.
I say this from experience. My XH was horribly depressed when he walked out. He engaged in negative behaviors (drinking too much and driving), he avoided me and the girls, and he was generally snotty and resentful to a lot of people close to him. The court forced him into C after his DUI, and I really knew it was rock bottom. Only I thought he would continue to explore why he was unhappy and chose to drink himself to death. I was wrong. He chose to run away. The man who walked out on me was a shell of a man I used to know. His eyes were vacant, and he just appeared to be a soulless body surviving in the world.
He's much better today, but to say he's not still depressed would be a lie. He still drinks too much and too often. Though he doesn't drive while doing it (he has a sober GF who is now his personal taxi), he has truly not stepped up to the plate to get treated. He's told me that his doctor suggests his high blood pressure and high cholesterol has everything to do with his lifestyle and choices, and had long advocated making some changes - to include counseling. Yet he refuses to do it.
My brother also does not stick with his own sobriety program. Usually about the 12 month mark, he thinks he's smarter than everyone who holds him accountable and he stops going to meetings. One day, my parents are going to get the visit from the boys in blue to let them know he's been found dead and rotting in some back alley in the bowels of drug infested DC.
So I guess I'm saying that we all deserve to protect ourselves. Depression and addiction ARE illnesses. But if they didn't negatively impact and affect others, there would be no reason for Al-Anon or any other codependency programs out there.
And I don't know if I've ever said this on this BB before. While I genuinely like my XH and consider him a friend and good father, I am truly, TRULY grateful that I am no longer married to him. His unwillingness to heal himself is unattractive to me from a partner aspect, and I no longer want that kind of R with my lover. It's hollow and empty.
While I also consider my XH to have suffered from MLC at the same time, I think the depression made it much worse than it already was. Maybe that's what's different - he no longer acts like he's in MLC. I don't think it's black and white, and I also think it's the case of a barrel of monkeys.
Since my XH's family is littered with diagnosed but untreated depression, I see some huge similarities between them and my heroin addicted brother. Yes, they are illnesses, but yes, they can be treated with medication and therapy. I'm going to leave illness created depression, which is kind of a different horse in this corral, out of my discussion.
I will not have a R with my brother any longer while he's using. That's my boundary. I also will not stay at my parents' house when he moves back with them. Another boundary. Fortunately for all of us, he's in jail somewhere. My mom finally found her limit and kicked him out. I can't tell you how awful it had to get for her to do it - he did something heinous and criminal and she couldn't handle it anymore. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.
Unconditional love should first go to ourselves. If the depressed person negatively affects the family, I have to agree with Bug that it's acceptable to place boundaries there. I didn't hear her advise Melissa or anyone else that they'd have to D someone. Maybe separate for awhile isn't a bad thing, though.
I say this from experience. My XH was horribly depressed when he walked out. He engaged in negative behaviors (drinking too much and driving), he avoided me and the girls, and he was generally snotty and resentful to a lot of people close to him. The court forced him into C after his DUI, and I really knew it was rock bottom. Only I thought he would continue to explore why he was unhappy and chose to drink himself to death. I was wrong. He chose to run away. The man who walked out on me was a shell of a man I used to know. His eyes were vacant, and he just appeared to be a soulless body surviving in the world.
He's much better today, but to say he's not still depressed would be a lie. He still drinks too much and too often. Though he doesn't drive while doing it (he has a sober GF who is now his personal taxi), he has truly not stepped up to the plate to get treated. He's told me that his doctor suggests his high blood pressure and high cholesterol has everything to do with his lifestyle and choices, and had long advocated making some changes - to include counseling. Yet he refuses to do it.
My brother also does not stick with his own sobriety program. Usually about the 12 month mark, he thinks he's smarter than everyone who holds him accountable and he stops going to meetings. One day, my parents are going to get the visit from the boys in blue to let them know he's been found dead and rotting in some back alley in the bowels of drug infested DC.
So I guess I'm saying that we all deserve to protect ourselves. Depression and addiction ARE illnesses. But if they didn't negatively impact and affect others, there would be no reason for Al-Anon or any other codependency programs out there.
And I don't know if I've ever said this on this BB before. While I genuinely like my XH and consider him a friend and good father, I am truly, TRULY grateful that I am no longer married to him. His unwillingness to heal himself is unattractive to me from a partner aspect, and I no longer want that kind of R with my lover. It's hollow and empty.
While I also consider my XH to have suffered from MLC at the same time, I think the depression made it much worse than it already was. Maybe that's what's different - he no longer acts like he's in MLC. I don't think it's black and white, and I also think it's the case of a barrel of monkeys.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/07/14 11:03 PM
Great thoughts, ladies. Much to ponder.
Wonka, I think you might have me confused with someone else. or at least what I said.
This is what I said on Bluesgirl's thread: it's within reason that you set a boundary that says, "I can't be with you if you don't get treatment."
Depression like addiction, affects the whole family. Recognizing that and protecting ourselves with boundaries is a step in our healing process.
Divorce may follow that if the verbal/emotional abuse and the inability to seek help continues.
I didn't mean to imply don't love them. It takes a lot of love (and courage) to set and enforce boundaries. Not setting boundaries and allowing people to abuse us doesn't show love either for self or the other.
I've come to learn, via the school of hard knocks, that if I don't first love and respect myself, I can't really love or respect anyone. All I did was pile on resentment on resentment.
Do I see the difference? Maybe.
And yes, I think I agree but depression often comes with disrespectful, sometimes abusive behavior and is often very treatable. I guess my question is, what boundary would you have had BG set? How would you have worded it?
A spouse can't determine if it's situational depression associated with a life crisis or if it's going to be clinical depression. At the outset they look very similar. I think limits are important from the outset and can include getting treatment.
we need some amaretto and scotch
Wonka, I think you might have me confused with someone else. or at least what I said.
This is what I said on Bluesgirl's thread: it's within reason that you set a boundary that says, "I can't be with you if you don't get treatment."
Depression like addiction, affects the whole family. Recognizing that and protecting ourselves with boundaries is a step in our healing process.
Divorce may follow that if the verbal/emotional abuse and the inability to seek help continues.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
It does not show unconditional love. The spouses do NOT choose depression. They don't go to the local store to buy liquor nor seek a dealer to get street drugs. A huge difference right there.
I've come to learn, via the school of hard knocks, that if I don't first love and respect myself, I can't really love or respect anyone. All I did was pile on resentment on resentment.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
One needs to separate the condition (cancer, depression, etc.) from behaviors. Rude and disrespectful behaviors do need to be nipped in the bud irrespective of the person's situation. Which is why I urge the LBS in their posts not to tolerate such rude behavior out of fear. See the difference?
Do I see the difference? Maybe.
And yes, I think I agree but depression often comes with disrespectful, sometimes abusive behavior and is often very treatable. I guess my question is, what boundary would you have had BG set? How would you have worded it?
A spouse can't determine if it's situational depression associated with a life crisis or if it's going to be clinical depression. At the outset they look very similar. I think limits are important from the outset and can include getting treatment.
we need some amaretto and scotch
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/07/14 11:04 PM
Meant to add this, from Lynne Forrest today:
Taking care of ourselves emotionally includes refusing to make someone else's maltreatment of us as being at, against, or about us!
Why would w decide that their confused, unhappy thoughts, are our fault? How kind is it to tell ourselves that they don't care about us? Why would we hurt ourselves with such unkind thoughts just because THEY say, and act the way they do out of THEIR own unhappy story?
And the real question is ... how can we treat ourselves so unkindly, and expect them to treat us any better?! I'm just saying... the world is a mirror - only every time.
Taking care of ourselves emotionally includes refusing to make someone else's maltreatment of us as being at, against, or about us!
Why would w decide that their confused, unhappy thoughts, are our fault? How kind is it to tell ourselves that they don't care about us? Why would we hurt ourselves with such unkind thoughts just because THEY say, and act the way they do out of THEIR own unhappy story?
And the real question is ... how can we treat ourselves so unkindly, and expect them to treat us any better?! I'm just saying... the world is a mirror - only every time.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/08/14 02:58 AM
Bugsy hope u don't mind I butt in . Depression is depression. I don't diffirentiate situational from clinical. There are specifiers and criterias that one must have in order to be diagnosed as depressed. Irritability is one of them. And yes a depressed family member will affect an entire family especially if they live together. Imagine seeing a love one sleeping all day not eating not bathing unable to concentrate or answer you? I have read over and over that our WAS are depressed. Now that I have been at this for a while I have to disagree. Their affect maybe be depressed but internally I don't believe so. That makes it very incongruent to me. I think it's something else. They may have some sadness mixed with some euphoria mix with confusion. Sounds more bipolar to me lol.. If a person is truly depressed they wouldn't have an interest with OP or OH (other horse). Since it's my birthday I can Whateves
. Depression is depression. I don't diffirentiate situational from clinical. There are specifiers and criterias that one must have in order to be diagnosed as depressed. Irritability is one of them. And yes a depressed family member will affect an entire family especially if they live together. Imagine seeing a love one sleeping all day not eating not bathing unable to concentrate or answer you? I have read over and over that our WAS are depressed. Now that I have been at this for a while I have to disagree. Their affect maybe be depressed but internally I don't believe so. That makes it very incongruent to me. I think it's something else. They may have some sadness mixed with some euphoria mix with confusion. Sounds more bipolar to me lol.. If a person is truly depressed they wouldn't have an interest with OP or OH (other horse). Since it's my birthday I can Whateves
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/08/14 02:20 PM
It made all kinds of sense, Gineen. You know too well the effects of living with depression, self-medicating, addiction. ((( )))
Rick, you're welcome to my party anytime! I don't believe all WAS are depressed but some are, some have substance abuse/addiction issues. I think it's a disservice not to point out that being a WAS is very different from a WAS with addiction. Or MLC vs this person is an abuser.
I didn't want to have to tell my H (several years ago), "Get help or find another place to live." But I did for my kids and me.
I don't want to have to tell S21 there are certain rules about living here and one is, you remain in IC.
We have such stigma around these issues. I think that's a driver. that's why I try to share freely about my depression, there is no shame in having an illness and seeking treatment.
Rick, you're welcome to my party anytime! I don't believe all WAS are depressed but some are, some have substance abuse/addiction issues. I think it's a disservice not to point out that being a WAS is very different from a WAS with addiction. Or MLC vs this person is an abuser.
I didn't want to have to tell my H (several years ago), "Get help or find another place to live." But I did for my kids and me.
I don't want to have to tell S21 there are certain rules about living here and one is, you remain in IC.
We have such stigma around these issues. I think that's a driver. that's why I try to share freely about my depression, there is no shame in having an illness and seeking treatment.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/08/14 03:36 PM
Quote:
I think it's a disservice not to point out that being a WAS is very different from a WAS with addiction. Or MLC vs this person is an abuser.
Just to cclarify, I'm not making a determination or diagnosis, just going with what posters say and letting them decide if S's behaviors are a problem for them, just like all the -Anon groups do.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/18/14 03:09 PM
So, back to my life. 
I posted this
I'll tell you a story in realtime. I'm moving through anger with my H right now. We had a disagreement about plans for later today. I could feel my anger coming up in me and I disengaged. Went for a bike ride, came home and he had to leave for his guitar lesson.
I needed to be away from him to figure out just exactly what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling that and how to deal with it.
I'm feeling hurt because it seems to me that he disregarded my feelings. (You know this before he does ) He didn't do that intentionally so we need to talk about it more and come to a decision that works for both of us.
I had to sit with the anger and let it pass to figure that out.
I need to have an open mind to hear him out. I couldn't do that with anger clouding my brainon another thread last week and wanted to follow-up on it here.
I won't relate the word-for-word conversation that happened the next morning (mostly because I can't remember it word-for-word)but can explain my thought process as I worked my way through this.
I thought about who I wanted to be when H got home from his guitar lesson. The old me would have been pouty, angry, withholding affection, concerned only for my feelings. The real me wants to show love and respect for my M and my H even in the bad times. So when he came home, I greeted him with a hug, a kiss and an ILU.
I still wasn't ready to talk more at that time. I knew I would when ready because in the past I swept these things under the rug and then made another check mark in the resentment column in my brain.
The next morning after breakfast we talked. I started with, I want to talk about what happened yesterday, looking straight at him, making eye contact. His immediate response was "I know I hurt your feelings" I agreed that I was hurt but told him I knew that wasn't his intention. Then I stated my need and listened to what he had to say, what his needs were and we were able to negotiate something that will work for both of us. We also talked about how much easier and better this process was, compared to our past conflict resolution experiences.
So what was different? What worked?
I-
1. didn't get angry and move immediately to my corner, sulking.
2. recognized when my anger was building and backed off to let it pass. Some times anger is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I won't know that if I just react every time it comes up.
3. clarified my goal.
4. didn't withhold affection as punishment.
5. actually thought about my response. (novel idea, huh?)
6. took my H's feelings into account, I din't blame him (he'd had stressful week with some health issues)
7. didn't use the words you, always, never etc.
8. looked at the problem from a R POV, not just my POV or H's POV but what was best for the R.
9. did recognize I had a need and figured out the best way to present that to H. I didn't play the long-suffering "Oh I'm fine, I have no needs" victim and then feel sorry for myself and place blame when my needs weren't met.
10. LISTENED!
This went really well and it so easly could have been an absolute mess! I was talking with my IC yesterday, and said it's amazing how these little interactions of just a few minutes can reveal so much. To which she replied, "But it's taken a lot of work to get here." There really are no "little" interactions.
It has been a lot of work, I was a died in the wool persecutor/victim. I see it so clearly now.
Sometimes I'm afraid the "new" me will disappear in a poof of smoke and I'll be that unhappy mess again. But the more interactions I have like the one above, the less I'm worried about that.
All this happened on Sun, IC on Mon and then Mon afternoon I get this in my inbox from a subscription called F*ck Feelings:
"Marriage requires a lot of sacrifice, and while surrendering some independence and half your Netflix subscription fees are worth it, the ability to keep strong emotional reactions from screwing up rational judgment is not. Sometimes, marital conflict will cause you to blame yourself unfairly, just to restore peace, and other times, you’ll blame your partner unfairly, to head off a situation that scares you. In any case, don’t forget that you can make an independent judgment without blaming or demeaning your spouse. Give yourself time, use normal business practices, and you’ll always find a positive way to discuss your differences and stand by both your vows and your own vision of what’s right and wrong."
I CAN do this.
I posted this
Quote:
I'll tell you a story in realtime. I'm moving through anger with my H right now. We had a disagreement about plans for later today. I could feel my anger coming up in me and I disengaged. Went for a bike ride, came home and he had to leave for his guitar lesson.
I needed to be away from him to figure out just exactly what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling that and how to deal with it.
I'm feeling hurt because it seems to me that he disregarded my feelings. (You know this before he does
) He didn't do that intentionally so we need to talk about it more and come to a decision that works for both of us.I had to sit with the anger and let it pass to figure that out.
I need to have an open mind to hear him out. I couldn't do that with anger clouding my brain
I won't relate the word-for-word conversation that happened the next morning (mostly because I can't remember it word-for-word)but can explain my thought process as I worked my way through this.
I thought about who I wanted to be when H got home from his guitar lesson. The old me would have been pouty, angry, withholding affection, concerned only for my feelings. The real me wants to show love and respect for my M and my H even in the bad times. So when he came home, I greeted him with a hug, a kiss and an ILU.
I still wasn't ready to talk more at that time. I knew I would when ready because in the past I swept these things under the rug and then made another check mark in the resentment column in my brain.
The next morning after breakfast we talked. I started with, I want to talk about what happened yesterday, looking straight at him, making eye contact. His immediate response was "I know I hurt your feelings" I agreed that I was hurt but told him I knew that wasn't his intention. Then I stated my need and listened to what he had to say, what his needs were and we were able to negotiate something that will work for both of us. We also talked about how much easier and better this process was, compared to our past conflict resolution experiences.
So what was different? What worked?
I-
1. didn't get angry and move immediately to my corner, sulking.
2. recognized when my anger was building and backed off to let it pass. Some times anger is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I won't know that if I just react every time it comes up.
3. clarified my goal.
4. didn't withhold affection as punishment.
5. actually thought about my response. (novel idea, huh?)
6. took my H's feelings into account, I din't blame him (he'd had stressful week with some health issues)
7. didn't use the words you, always, never etc.
8. looked at the problem from a R POV, not just my POV or H's POV but what was best for the R.
9. did recognize I had a need and figured out the best way to present that to H. I didn't play the long-suffering "Oh I'm fine, I have no needs" victim and then feel sorry for myself and place blame when my needs weren't met.
10. LISTENED!
This went really well and it so easly could have been an absolute mess! I was talking with my IC yesterday, and said it's amazing how these little interactions of just a few minutes can reveal so much. To which she replied, "But it's taken a lot of work to get here." There really are no "little" interactions.
It has been a lot of work, I was a died in the wool persecutor/victim. I see it so clearly now.
Sometimes I'm afraid the "new" me will disappear in a poof of smoke and I'll be that unhappy mess again. But the more interactions I have like the one above, the less I'm worried about that.
All this happened on Sun, IC on Mon and then Mon afternoon I get this in my inbox from a subscription called F*ck Feelings:
"Marriage requires a lot of sacrifice, and while surrendering some independence and half your Netflix subscription fees are worth it, the ability to keep strong emotional reactions from screwing up rational judgment is not. Sometimes, marital conflict will cause you to blame yourself unfairly, just to restore peace, and other times, you’ll blame your partner unfairly, to head off a situation that scares you. In any case, don’t forget that you can make an independent judgment without blaming or demeaning your spouse. Give yourself time, use normal business practices, and you’ll always find a positive way to discuss your differences and stand by both your vows and your own vision of what’s right and wrong."
I CAN do this.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/18/14 03:35 PM
Wanted to add that the subscription I mentioned above really helped me learn to work through what I'm feeling and why and then be able to express it to myself and others.
I knew it was working when I would ignore it for a month or so cause they'd so pissed me off trying to get me to take responsibility for me.
The nerve!
I knew it was working when I would ignore it for a month or so cause they'd so pissed me off trying to get me to take responsibility for me.
The nerve!
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/18/14 03:37 PM
Bug,
subscription called F*ck Feelings:
Really??! There's one that's actually called this ^^ for real?!
subscription called F*ck Feelings:
Really??! There's one that's actually called this ^^ for real?!
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/18/14 04:23 PM
google is your friend, Wonka.
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/20/14 02:26 AM
Question for you, labug (I think this is the right place to ask it?) I think I read somewhere in your threads that you and your H were high school sweethearts. My H and I are, too, and part of my struggle in dealing with all this is thinking about how I've spent my entire adult life with H and how that affects trying to find "myself" in all this. All of my memories - everything from prom and high school graduation to college sporting events, living in the dorms, moving into my first apartment, getting a pet, hobbies and outings, etc. etc. all involve H and it's hard to separate him out of all that "life". It's hard to follow the advice of "be who I was before I met him" because I was 17! Did you feel similar and how did you get past it to get to a place of being OK no matter what the outcome?
Re: This, That and The Other - 02/20/14 03:42 PM
Yes, I did and think about how many years of memories I had. Add the fact that we had kids together and it was truly tough.
But you get there, those memories become just what they are, memories. The veil of sadness faded.
All we have is today.
But you get there, those memories become just what they are, memories. The veil of sadness faded.
All we have is today.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/02/14 01:45 PM
I've been thinking I need to get back to AlAnon, not because of a drinking relapse but because of a relapse of my inner turmoil. It's not a lot of turmoil but it's more than I want. I've let go of some important self-care things, I need to get back on track.
I used to go to 3-4 meetings and week and it's been over a year since I've attended even one. I miss the support of people who are working on their stuff.
There are a couple of blogs I read that help and going back to those has made me miss the live support. Getting and staying healthy is a daily practice that often requires support from others.
So I'll go to a meeting.
Life is otherwise pretty d@mn good. H shows me regularly that he's listening and hearing. He asked me out to dinner last night of his own volition. Things don't happen on my time line but they do happen, so the obvious answer is to drop the time line, right? And keep doing the work.
I hope I'm also listening and hearing, I'm working to be present and honest and clear and loving in my communication.
Patience was not my strong suit, I wanted things and I wanted them now!
Life is better with patience.
Have a great week.
I used to go to 3-4 meetings and week and it's been over a year since I've attended even one. I miss the support of people who are working on their stuff.
There are a couple of blogs I read that help and going back to those has made me miss the live support. Getting and staying healthy is a daily practice that often requires support from others.
So I'll go to a meeting.
Life is otherwise pretty d@mn good. H shows me regularly that he's listening and hearing. He asked me out to dinner last night of his own volition. Things don't happen on my time line but they do happen, so the obvious answer is to drop the time line, right? And keep doing the work.
I hope I'm also listening and hearing, I'm working to be present and honest and clear and loving in my communication.
Patience was not my strong suit, I wanted things and I wanted them now!
Life is better with patience.
Have a great week.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/03/14 03:59 PM
I hope I'm also listening and hearing, I'm working to be present and honest and clear and loving in my communication.
I love the way that sounds... I aspire for that too.
Good luck labug!!
Keep it up!!
I love the way that sounds... I aspire for that too.
Good luck labug!!
Keep it up!!
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/03/14 07:59 PM
Thanks, Magic. It is a practice.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/03/14 08:15 PM
This weekend I was decluttering in the bedroom and in the drawer of my nightstand I found the initial financial disclosure paperwork I received from the lawyer I visited 3 years ago.
I threw it away.
I threw it away.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/03/14 08:29 PM
I watched the Oscars last night and was glad I got to see the acceptance speech by the writers of the song Let It Go:
“Our girls, Katie and Annie, our song is inspired by our love for you in the hope that you never let fear and shame keep you from celebrating the unique people that you are. Thank you, we love you,” Kristen Anderson-Lopez on accepting the best original song for “Let It Go” from the film “Frozen” with her husband Robert Lopez.
Awesome, huh? We can waste so much of our lives dealing with shame.
From the song:
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel,
“Our girls, Katie and Annie, our song is inspired by our love for you in the hope that you never let fear and shame keep you from celebrating the unique people that you are. Thank you, we love you,” Kristen Anderson-Lopez on accepting the best original song for “Let It Go” from the film “Frozen” with her husband Robert Lopez.
Awesome, huh? We can waste so much of our lives dealing with shame.
From the song:
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel,
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/05/14 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
From the song:
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel,
I wasn't clear, I'm not advocating that behavior but it is the way many of us were programmed.
That's what we need to change.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/07/14 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
So, back to my life.
I posted this
I'll tell you a story in realtime. I'm moving through anger with my H right now. We had a disagreement about plans for later today. I could feel my anger coming up in me and I disengaged. Went for a bike ride, came home and he had to leave for his guitar lesson.
I needed to be away from him to figure out just exactly what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling that and how to deal with it.
I'm feeling hurt because it seems to me that he disregarded my feelings. (You know this before he does ) He didn't do that intentionally so we need to talk about it more and come to a decision that works for both of us.
I had to sit with the anger and let it pass to figure that out.
I need to have an open mind to hear him out. I couldn't do that with anger clouding my brainon another thread last week and wanted to follow-up on it here.
I won't relate the word-for-word conversation that happened the next morning (mostly because I can't remember it word-for-word)but can explain my thought process as I worked my way through this.
I thought about who I wanted to be when H got home from his guitar lesson. The old me would have been pouty, angry, withholding affection, concerned only for my feelings. The real me wants to show love and respect for my M and my H even in the bad times. So when he came home, I greeted him with a hug, a kiss and an ILU.
I still wasn't ready to talk more at that time. I knew I would when ready because in the past I swept these things under the rug and then made another check mark in the resentment column in my brain.
The next morning after breakfast we talked. I started with, I want to talk about what happened yesterday, looking straight at him, making eye contact. His immediate response was "I know I hurt your feelings" I agreed that I was hurt but told him I knew that wasn't his intention. Then I stated my need and listened to what he had to say, what his needs were and we were able to negotiate something that will work for both of us. We also talked about how much easier and better this process was, compared to our past conflict resolution experiences.
So what was different? What worked?
I-
1. didn't get angry and move immediately to my corner, sulking.
2. recognized when my anger was building and backed off to let it pass. Some times anger is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I won't know that if I just react every time it comes up.
3. clarified my goal.
4. didn't withhold affection as punishment.
5. actually thought about my response. (novel idea, huh?)
6. took my H's feelings into account, I din't blame him (he'd had stressful week with some health issues)
7. didn't use the words you, always, never etc.
8. looked at the problem from a R POV, not just my POV or H's POV but what was best for the R.
9. did recognize I had a need and figured out the best way to present that to H. I didn't play the long-suffering "Oh I'm fine, I have no needs" victim and then feel sorry for myself and place blame when my needs weren't met.
10. LISTENED!
This went really well and it so easly could have been an absolute mess! I was talking with my IC yesterday, and said it's amazing how these little interactions of just a few minutes can reveal so much. To which she replied, "But it's taken a lot of work to get here." There really are no "little" interactions.
It has been a lot of work, I was a died in the wool persecutor/victim. I see it so clearly now.
Sometimes I'm afraid the "new" me will disappear in a poof of smoke and I'll be that unhappy mess again. But the more interactions I have like the one above, the less I'm worried about that.
All this happened on Sun, IC on Mon and then Mon afternoon I get this in my inbox from a subscription called F*ck Feelings:
"Marriage requires a lot of sacrifice, and while surrendering some independence and half your Netflix subscription fees are worth it, the ability to keep strong emotional reactions from screwing up rational judgment is not. Sometimes, marital conflict will cause you to blame yourself unfairly, just to restore peace, and other times, you’ll blame your partner unfairly, to head off a situation that scares you. In any case, don’t forget that you can make an independent judgment without blaming or demeaning your spouse. Give yourself time, use normal business practices, and you’ll always find a positive way to discuss your differences and stand by both your vows and your own vision of what’s right and wrong."
I CAN do this.
I posted this
Quote:
I'll tell you a story in realtime. I'm moving through anger with my H right now. We had a disagreement about plans for later today. I could feel my anger coming up in me and I disengaged. Went for a bike ride, came home and he had to leave for his guitar lesson.
I needed to be away from him to figure out just exactly what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling that and how to deal with it.
I'm feeling hurt because it seems to me that he disregarded my feelings. (You know this before he does
) He didn't do that intentionally so we need to talk about it more and come to a decision that works for both of us.I had to sit with the anger and let it pass to figure that out.
I need to have an open mind to hear him out. I couldn't do that with anger clouding my brain
I won't relate the word-for-word conversation that happened the next morning (mostly because I can't remember it word-for-word)but can explain my thought process as I worked my way through this.
I thought about who I wanted to be when H got home from his guitar lesson. The old me would have been pouty, angry, withholding affection, concerned only for my feelings. The real me wants to show love and respect for my M and my H even in the bad times. So when he came home, I greeted him with a hug, a kiss and an ILU.
I still wasn't ready to talk more at that time. I knew I would when ready because in the past I swept these things under the rug and then made another check mark in the resentment column in my brain.
The next morning after breakfast we talked. I started with, I want to talk about what happened yesterday, looking straight at him, making eye contact. His immediate response was "I know I hurt your feelings" I agreed that I was hurt but told him I knew that wasn't his intention. Then I stated my need and listened to what he had to say, what his needs were and we were able to negotiate something that will work for both of us. We also talked about how much easier and better this process was, compared to our past conflict resolution experiences.
So what was different? What worked?
I-
1. didn't get angry and move immediately to my corner, sulking.
2. recognized when my anger was building and backed off to let it pass. Some times anger is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I won't know that if I just react every time it comes up.
3. clarified my goal.
4. didn't withhold affection as punishment.
5. actually thought about my response. (novel idea, huh?)
6. took my H's feelings into account, I din't blame him (he'd had stressful week with some health issues)
7. didn't use the words you, always, never etc.
8. looked at the problem from a R POV, not just my POV or H's POV but what was best for the R.
9. did recognize I had a need and figured out the best way to present that to H. I didn't play the long-suffering "Oh I'm fine, I have no needs" victim and then feel sorry for myself and place blame when my needs weren't met.
10. LISTENED!
This went really well and it so easly could have been an absolute mess! I was talking with my IC yesterday, and said it's amazing how these little interactions of just a few minutes can reveal so much. To which she replied, "But it's taken a lot of work to get here." There really are no "little" interactions.
It has been a lot of work, I was a died in the wool persecutor/victim. I see it so clearly now.
Sometimes I'm afraid the "new" me will disappear in a poof of smoke and I'll be that unhappy mess again. But the more interactions I have like the one above, the less I'm worried about that.
All this happened on Sun, IC on Mon and then Mon afternoon I get this in my inbox from a subscription called F*ck Feelings:
"Marriage requires a lot of sacrifice, and while surrendering some independence and half your Netflix subscription fees are worth it, the ability to keep strong emotional reactions from screwing up rational judgment is not. Sometimes, marital conflict will cause you to blame yourself unfairly, just to restore peace, and other times, you’ll blame your partner unfairly, to head off a situation that scares you. In any case, don’t forget that you can make an independent judgment without blaming or demeaning your spouse. Give yourself time, use normal business practices, and you’ll always find a positive way to discuss your differences and stand by both your vows and your own vision of what’s right and wrong."
I CAN do this.
Follow-follow-up on this post.
I don't think I mentioned the actual cause of this disagreement. One of my LLs is quality time and I like to have that out of the house, preferably with dinner. That's my perfect date, to have a nice dinner somewhere. In the past, H has never really "got" that. I had so much resentment about this that it was something that I brought up repeatedly in a phone rant not long after he left. It's a big issue.
It's not that we never eat out, we do, but this is a "date" where you get asked and things are planned for you. It's not "let's grab something at Chipotle."
So the problem in the above posts was because I had wanted to go out for dinner and he didn't. My mind immediately went to "he doesn't love me, he's not paying attention, how difficult can this be, I can't be with someone who's so selfish, ha hasn't changed..." All destructive and untrue. That's why taking the time to let emotion pass and think clearly is so important. Otherwise we're right back where we started, in our corners, acting out old scripts.
As you can read above, we had a talk the next day, I again let him know, lovingly, how important this is to me and compared it to one of his LLs.
This past Saturday, without nudging (not even P/A nudging), he asked me out to dinner and we had a wonderful time.
On Monday with my IC (she of course knows all this history) I said "H asked me out to dinner Sat!" We both did a little happy dance.
And here's another thing. I told H I had let my IC know about the dinner date, how much I appreciated it and that I now realize he hadn't understood the importance of this small act.
He said "I really didn't but I do see it and especially now that you made it a part of your talk with your T."
This is work but it's so worth it.
I'm re-reading the book Family Communication, great knowledge for anyone who's looking for ways to improve communication with partners, children, friends. I've picked up on some things that I do that I was unconsciously doing.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/07/14 10:27 PM
Bug, good to see you are making some progress. I’m learning about patience too.
I remember when I read one of your previous posts when you said that you decided to give it a try with H. How sure were you about wanting to try with your H instead of starting new with somebody else? I can see that the reconciliation process is a lot of work, at least on your part anyway. So, were you absolutely determined to make it work? Do you still have any doubts?
I remember when I read one of your previous posts when you said that you decided to give it a try with H. How sure were you about wanting to try with your H instead of starting new with somebody else? I can see that the reconciliation process is a lot of work, at least on your part anyway. So, were you absolutely determined to make it work? Do you still have any doubts?
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/08/14 04:28 PM
Just did a little happy dance to join int the celebration with you.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/08/14 04:46 PM
this is great news. I like reading your thread
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/08/14 05:27 PM
Great news!
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/09/14 06:54 PM
HI Bug
you posted 2 things I wanted to return to and of course now can't find.
One was from Eric about self. I think.. I need to print that also
the other was about forgiveness maybe Melisa's thread..Could you help me out .. pleeease..
thansk
Loua
you posted 2 things I wanted to return to and of course now can't find.
One was from Eric about self. I think.. I need to print that also
the other was about forgiveness maybe Melisa's thread..Could you help me out .. pleeease..
thansk
Loua
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/13/14 03:14 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I don't have time to answer the questions right now, but I'll get to them.
Lou this might be what you're referring to: Don't Miss This
This isn't about forgiveness per se but it the last quot I remember using: “People mistakenly assume that their thinking is done by their head; it is actually done by the heart which first dictates the conclusion, then commands the head to provide the reasoning that will defend it.”
Lou this might be what you're referring to: Don't Miss This
This isn't about forgiveness per se but it the last quot I remember using: “People mistakenly assume that their thinking is done by their head; it is actually done by the heart which first dictates the conclusion, then commands the head to provide the reasoning that will defend it.”
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/13/14 06:09 PM
Hi Labug
You are a star...that was exactly what I was after...
THink I will print it out..
and read it often...
I take strength from your thread as a lot of us do..
Loualea
You are a star...that was exactly what I was after...
THink I will print it out..
and read it often...
I take strength from your thread as a lot of us do..
Loualea
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/14/14 03:21 AM
Interesting questions.
It wasn't a question of wanting to try with H instead of someone new, my hesitation would have been because my life was pretty great without him. I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained. I figured at some point in the future someone might show up that I would be interested in but it didn't weigh on my mind. If it was to happen, it would happen.
After we dated for a while, I was sure I wanted to try but wasn't going to worry about or attempt to control the outcome.
First, I know it's been work for both of us. You only hear about my process here, his is his but I think you can see some of his changes in the scenarios above. All R require work from both parties.
I'm not determined to make it work. I'm determined to be present every day as my best self. To be open, honest, respectful and to communicate my needs, my love and my anger. I watch for creeping resentment and figure out how to deal with it if it's there. (I have some right now that I'm working on ;/ )
I practice gratitude.
If I'm consistently doing those things and it doesn't work, then I don't want to be in that R.
It does sound like a lot of work but what I consider the hard work is only a small percentage of the time we spend together. We have more fun and good times that we did in the 5 years before BD combined.
Hmmmm...I don't have doubts, I think because I have very few expectations. Yesterday was good, today was good, we'll see what tomorrow brings. I try not to worry about tomorrow, or look too far into the future. That was one of my problems in the past.
Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
Bug, good to see you are making some progress. I’m learning about patience too.
I remember when I read one of your previous posts when you said that you decided to give it a try with H. How sure were you about wanting to try with your H instead of starting new with somebody else?
I remember when I read one of your previous posts when you said that you decided to give it a try with H. How sure were you about wanting to try with your H instead of starting new with somebody else?
It wasn't a question of wanting to try with H instead of someone new, my hesitation would have been because my life was pretty great without him. I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained. I figured at some point in the future someone might show up that I would be interested in but it didn't weigh on my mind. If it was to happen, it would happen.
After we dated for a while, I was sure I wanted to try but wasn't going to worry about or attempt to control the outcome.
Quote:
I can see that the reconciliation process is a lot of work, at least on your part anyway. So, were you absolutely determined to make it work?
First, I know it's been work for both of us. You only hear about my process here, his is his but I think you can see some of his changes in the scenarios above. All R require work from both parties.
I'm not determined to make it work. I'm determined to be present every day as my best self. To be open, honest, respectful and to communicate my needs, my love and my anger. I watch for creeping resentment and figure out how to deal with it if it's there. (I have some right now that I'm working on ;/ )
I practice gratitude.
If I'm consistently doing those things and it doesn't work, then I don't want to be in that R.
It does sound like a lot of work but what I consider the hard work is only a small percentage of the time we spend together. We have more fun and good times that we did in the 5 years before BD combined.
Quote:
Do you still have any doubts?
Hmmmm...I don't have doubts, I think because I have very few expectations. Yesterday was good, today was good, we'll see what tomorrow brings. I try not to worry about tomorrow, or look too far into the future. That was one of my problems in the past.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/16/14 11:30 PM
Hi Labug just caught up on your thread and remain so impressed with your recovery.
I can imagine how much more difficult it is to be recovered when you are restarting a relationship. So many of the old triggers must appear.
You talk on these boards a lot about your disease of depression, was your H going through any type of crisis or depression when he left or was it really only a response to your difficult behavior and once he saw that you were "cured" he felt safe to return?
Have you and your H spoken to your sons about what happened? Do they feel secure in your relationship as a family?
I can imagine how much more difficult it is to be recovered when you are restarting a relationship. So many of the old triggers must appear.
You talk on these boards a lot about your disease of depression, was your H going through any type of crisis or depression when he left or was it really only a response to your difficult behavior and once he saw that you were "cured" he felt safe to return?
Have you and your H spoken to your sons about what happened? Do they feel secure in your relationship as a family?
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/16/14 11:33 PM
Also check out this article in the NY Times modern love column this weekend about remarrying your ex.
A Second Embrace, With Hearts and Eyes ... By MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMS.
A Second Embrace, With Hearts and Eyes ... By MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMS.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/17/14 02:12 PM
BK, thanks for the article. Her experience is very close to my experience, except the melanoma, thank god.
Your questions really got me thinking. I'll be back with some answers.
I'll have to check on your sitch. haven't visited for a while.
Your questions really got me thinking. I'll be back with some answers.
I'll have to check on your sitch. haven't visited for a while.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/19/14 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
It wasn't a question of wanting to try with H instead of someone new, my hesitation would have been because my life was pretty great without him. I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained. I figured at some point in the future someone might show up that I would be interested in but it didn't weigh on my mind. If it was to happen, it would happen.
Sometimes I have the same feelings, that at some point I will be in a place where I would like my life and would not care it would work out with H or not. I’m not quite there yet, but having these feelings to pop up once in a while is a good sign.
Originally Posted By: labug
I'm not determined to make it work. I'm determined to be present every day as my best self. To be open, honest, respectful and to communicate my needs, my love and my anger. I watch for creeping resentment and figure out how to deal with it if it's there. (I have some right now that I'm working on ;/ )
I can also see myself doing this, just be present.
Originally Posted By: labug
I practice gratitude.
I do too, and it helps enormously. I don’t have any anger towards H anymore. At least I haven’t had that feeling for some time now. It could come back, IDK.
Originally Posted By: labug
Hmmmm...I don't have doubts, I think because I have very few expectations. Yesterday was good, today was good, we'll see what tomorrow brings. I try not to worry about tomorrow, or look too far into the future. That was one of my problems in the past.
It is hard to imagine that you have no expectations. Do you have a hope that your R with your H will continue to improve? Would you be hurt if it doesn’t work out? My thinking is that when you let someone into your heart (again), you naturally have some expectations, or at least hope for the better. Just trying to understand.
BK, I’ve read that article too. Thanks for the info. I’m curious about your questions too. Will wait for the answers.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/20/14 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: BklynMom
Hi Labug just caught up on your thread and remain so impressed with your recovery.
Thanks. For the first time in my life I feel that I'm becoming the person I'm meant to be. I'm no longer caught up in being the "good girl" or the person I thought every other person in my life wanted me to be. I once told my IC I had lived my life like a chameleon, constantly changing based on what signals I was getting from the person I was interacting with at that moment.
Quote:
I can imagine how much more difficult it is to be recovered when you are restarting a relationship. So many of the old triggers must appear.
Yes. I think one of the blessings of my sitch is that it did take so long.
This weekend marked 3 years since he left the house. Of course the year before that had been crappy.Right now I'm sitting in a hospital cafeteria as H is having surgery. He doesn't do medical stuff well(my judgment)he gets very quiet, nervous and a bit snippy. He's fearful although he doesn't like to admit it. I work in healthcare so I can be very blase about it all. In the past I belittled his very real fears, not in an overt way but by not listening and validating, by expecting him to just grin and bear it. I wanted to control his feelings because his fear and uncertainty made me uncomfortable.
This time I've gone with the flow, let him say whatever he needed to say but didn't try to force him to share his feelings. When he's been short with me, I've taken it in context of the situation, didn't try to defend myself or respond in kind. I've upped the ILUs and hugs.
we'll both be happy to have this day behind us.
Quote:
You talk on these boards a lot about your disease of depression, was your H going through any type of crisis or depression when he left or was it really only a response to your difficult behavior
I can't say for sure, he has his share of "stuff" but he was living with a woman with progressive depression and it's pretty evident that marriages where one spouse is depressed, especially if untreated the rates of depression in the other spouse increase as does the rate of D. A lot of what was going on was in response to my depression, we both played our parts.
If you had asked friends and co-workers about me during that time, I doubt that many would have used the word depressed. Funny, sarcastic, angry, unhappy, diligent, hard-working, maybe but depressed wouldn't have been at the top of the list. Depression has many faces and often doesn't look like we think it should look.
I talk about it here because I think it's good to know it has a name, it can be destructive, it is in most cases very treatable but first we have to admit that it's there.
Quote:
...and once he saw that you were "cured" he felt safe to return?
I think that pretty much sums things up but he had to do some work, too.
Quote:
Have you and your H spoken to your sons about what happened? Do they feel secure in your relationship as a family?
I think our sons have a pretty good idea of what happened, they were living it, too. I've been very frank about my depression and treatment.
I don't know how secure they feel.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/20/14 09:36 PM
Quote:
It is hard to imagine that you have no expectations. Do you have a hope that your R with your H will continue to improve? Would you be hurt if it doesn’t work out? My thinking is that when you let someone into your heart (again), you naturally have some expectations, or at least hope for the better. Just trying to understand.
I've really thought about the expectations and yes, I have expectations that he'll come home from work at the normal time, that his check will go in the bank every other Thurs, I expect him to be faithful, I expect him to let me know if he feels things are going off the rails, I expect that he will listen and work with me to resolve conflict.
We both have responsibility in the last 3 because if he doesn't feel safe talking to me about issues he may not bring them up, he may not be as willing to listen and therefore we would be unable to resolve conflict.
So I work at the goals I mentioned in the earlier post to you. Those are things I can control
I've worked very hard through IC, AlAnon, personal work, here, to get rid of unrealistic expectations about things that are out of my control. I've learned to let go.
I don't have the expectation that we will "live happily ever after" and I'm sure if it doesn't work I will be sad. I can live with sadness, it's a part of life. I know it won't kill me.
Looking that far ahead (ever after) is trouble. Why do that? I've read somewhere that worrying about tomorrow steals the joy from today and I believe that to be true.
I know this way of being can be difficult to understand. Had you told me 4 years ago I would be saying these things, I would have said you were crazy. What? Me not have a death grip of control on my future?
I had everything planned, that's the only way I felt safe. Fear ruled my life.I still have fears, another part of life, but my fears no longer control me.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/22/14 05:47 PM
Bug, so glad things are going well for you. I absolutely love the way you think about things now.
I can really relate to this. I think it's what we mean when we say "you may not save your M, but you'll definitely save yourself."
Bravo Bug....bravo.
Originally Posted By: labug
....my hesitation would have been because my life was pretty great without him. I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained.
I can really relate to this. I think it's what we mean when we say "you may not save your M, but you'll definitely save yourself."
Originally Posted By: labug
I still have fears, another part of life, but my fears no longer control me.
Bravo Bug....bravo.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/22/14 11:21 PM
Bug, thanks for answering my questions. I do get it. I was also a person who planned everything in the future. Actually it was not the planning itself, but a run of possible scenarios and an attempt to select the best possible. This drove me crazy sometimes and H blamed me for inability to make a decision, even about some small everyday stuff.
I’m trying to live today and not obsess about the future. I feel so much better now. Your story inspired me every time I read your updates.
I’m trying to live today and not obsess about the future. I feel so much better now. Your story inspired me every time I read your updates.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/23/14 01:29 PM
Oh yes, BD, I certainly saved myself and did not want to fall back into old patterns of behavior. I truly didn't know that life could be like this. Hadn't a clue.
BF, all I can say is (like an old record, you remember those ) keep working on you and leave your H to be who he is. He will either decide to change his life or not and you might just find that you really don't want him in yours.
And that's perfectly OK.
BF, all I can say is (like an old record, you remember those
) keep working on you and leave your H to be who he is. He will either decide to change his life or not and you might just find that you really don't want him in yours.And that's perfectly OK.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/23/14 02:18 PM
Thanks for your feedback Labug.
I have to remind myself that I can not measure who is right and who is wrong. I am always look to quantify things like a poll broadcast on CNN.
Initatally I believe I was 90& to blame and husband 10% then I was convinced me 48% and him 52%. Then I thought that was wrong and I thought I need to keep investigating until I new for sure what percentage was me and what percentage was him. I thought if I could pin point this truth then I could resolve this problem.
Anyway I know that my scientific study is silly. I need to live in the gray.
I have to remind myself that I can not measure who is right and who is wrong. I am always look to quantify things like a poll broadcast on CNN.
Initatally I believe I was 90& to blame and husband 10% then I was convinced me 48% and him 52%. Then I thought that was wrong and I thought I need to keep investigating until I new for sure what percentage was me and what percentage was him. I thought if I could pin point this truth then I could resolve this problem.
Anyway I know that my scientific study is silly. I need to live in the gray.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/23/14 05:59 PM
Ohhhhhh Bk, living in the gray, truer words were never spoken. I kept score so much in our M and there was either a right or a wrong, no gray, ever.
That's what this journey has given me, perspective.
That's what this journey has given me, perspective.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/25/14 02:57 PM
This came from Lynne Forrest today (she has a great explanation of the victim triangle).
When we work on ourselves, question & reframe the thoughts we believe, WE change - in the way we see things, in the way we feel, and act, towards others.
And when we do - miracle of miracles! - the other changes too!
Others respond better, in the way they treat us, not from confronting them, but as a result of OUR OWN shift in consciousness
This has been my experience.
Our own growth also makes it easier to recognize the people we no longer want in our lives.
When we work on ourselves, question & reframe the thoughts we believe, WE change - in the way we see things, in the way we feel, and act, towards others.
And when we do - miracle of miracles! - the other changes too!
Others respond better, in the way they treat us, not from confronting them, but as a result of OUR OWN shift in consciousness
This has been my experience.
Our own growth also makes it easier to recognize the people we no longer want in our lives.
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/25/14 03:01 PM
labug, I've been following you for years and find your personal growth to be so admirable. Sorry for any hijack ...
Re: This, That and The Other - 03/26/14 01:34 PM
Not a hijack at all. Thanks for the comment.
It's pretty quiet here.
It's pretty quiet here.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/05/14 10:16 PM
Hi Labug
The stealing joy from today resounded so strongly with me.
I love reading your posts and replies..
I am a recovering control freak.. for the same reasons you described.. more stress led to more control
my H identified that clearly as a reason he sees the marriage as over..he is now so thin skinned with any statement that I find myself qualifying every comment I make..
I so very consciously do not control.. or pursue or do what i see as best for others.. whether they think so or not..feels like a sort of fake way to live..how did you change that feeling.. if you ahd it?
The stealing joy from today resounded so strongly with me.
I love reading your posts and replies..
I am a recovering control freak.. for the same reasons you described.. more stress led to more control
my H identified that clearly as a reason he sees the marriage as over..he is now so thin skinned with any statement that I find myself qualifying every comment I make..
I so very consciously do not control.. or pursue or do what i see as best for others.. whether they think so or not..feels like a sort of fake way to live..how did you change that feeling.. if you ahd it?
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/07/14 02:18 PM
"I so very consciously do not control.. or pursue or do what i see as best for others.. whether they think so or not..feels like a sort of fake way to live..how did you change that feeling.. if you ahd it?"
Bugsy hope you don't mind I give this^^a shot.
Loualea, you can always do right by others as long as you don't force it on them. People have the right to make dumb decisions. When I hear control freak I see a perfectionists. Being a perfectionists is similar to what MWD calls Cheeseless Tunnel. It is impossible to achieve perfection and you will spin your wheels for eternity and never achieve it. The way you change that feeling is by just giving up, let go. Acknowledge that it is not your job and that you are not in control of others.
Ask yourself this whenever you get the urge to change someone else. How would I feel if someone wanted me something else?
Bugsy hope you don't mind I give this^^a shot
.Loualea, you can always do right by others as long as you don't force it on them. People have the right to make dumb decisions. When I hear control freak I see a perfectionists. Being a perfectionists is similar to what MWD calls Cheeseless Tunnel. It is impossible to achieve perfection and you will spin your wheels for eternity and never achieve it. The way you change that feeling is by just giving up, let go. Acknowledge that it is not your job and that you are not in control of others.
Ask yourself this whenever you get the urge to change someone else. How would I feel if someone wanted me something else?
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/07/14 04:14 PM
HI Rick
appreciate the thought. and help .
I know what I was and I am working so hard to not do that.. yes i am a perfectionist.. for myself. I consciously do not expect that of anyone else..
It is more when it impacts on me.. I asked if he is willing to help me organise a kitchen in my new apartment..? It is truly a question. If he does not want to cannot or whatever then really it is fine. I have no clue what he might say so have no expectations..
he said he did not know...so I need someone who speaks the language.. if not him then I will ask someone else..
so the answer leaves me no where.. if I organise someone else I will be wrong, he will say he changed things to fit in..( I have lived this scenario already)
..if I do not organise someone I am putting pressure on and trying to manipulate
If I say nothing then he is offended I did not ask. When I say I thought it would be an additional stress he says I am managing him..and around it goes..
I don't want, need or even care to change him..but I feel manipulated..
I guess leave him out of the equation but as I have been advised to maintain a connection on this practical level ahh it is all too hard.
appreciate the thought. and help .
I know what I was and I am working so hard to not do that.. yes i am a perfectionist.. for myself. I consciously do not expect that of anyone else..
It is more when it impacts on me.. I asked if he is willing to help me organise a kitchen in my new apartment..? It is truly a question. If he does not want to cannot or whatever then really it is fine. I have no clue what he might say so have no expectations..
he said he did not know...so I need someone who speaks the language.. if not him then I will ask someone else..
so the answer leaves me no where.. if I organise someone else I will be wrong, he will say he changed things to fit in..( I have lived this scenario already)
..if I do not organise someone I am putting pressure on and trying to manipulate
If I say nothing then he is offended I did not ask. When I say I thought it would be an additional stress he says I am managing him..and around it goes..
I don't want, need or even care to change him..but I feel manipulated..
I guess leave him out of the equation but as I have been advised to maintain a connection on this practical level ahh it is all too hard.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/08/14 03:18 PM
Just because he says you're controlling doesn't mean it's always true.
Why did you ask him to help organize your kitchen? Because of the language barrier?
If that's the case, I would ask someone else or attempt to do it myself.
If he doesn't like it, it's your kitchen, he doesn't have to like it.
About the control issue, we often don't do it consciously. Slowing down, examining motives, asking yourself "why am I asking/saying that?", letting go of outcomes allows us to see our patterns and begin to change them.
Why did you ask him to help organize your kitchen? Because of the language barrier?
If that's the case, I would ask someone else or attempt to do it myself.
If he doesn't like it, it's your kitchen, he doesn't have to like it.
About the control issue, we often don't do it consciously. Slowing down, examining motives, asking yourself "why am I asking/saying that?", letting go of outcomes allows us to see our patterns and begin to change them.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/09/14 02:33 PM
H and I had a talk yesterday about the always dangerous marital issue of porch furniture!
Seems trivial but it's these little issues that occur on a regular basis that get the resentment snowball rolling. Before you know it, it's big enough to bury you.
I wanted to make furniture out of pallets for our front porch. I like to recycle things, I'm creative, I've done similar projects in the past and this was a great opportunity (I thought).
H was hesitant, but he didn't say, "No, I'm not going for that." He hemmed and hawed. Yesterday we were on a bike ride and saw a stack of about 5 pallets. Yes! I said "You and S21 could come get those later."(I had to go to work) His response, "I'm not going to do that, it'll be a lot of work (I hadn't asked him to do anything but pick them up) and will end up looking tacky! I don't want them on my front porch."
We were through the hemming and hawing stage and went straight to p!ssed off and attacking.
I took a deep breath and thought about this as we continued to ride. I could see how we had done this our whole married lives, he not able to risk confrontation with a straight out no until he's p!ssed, me seeing that hemming and hawing as an opening to keep pushing for what I wanted. From my current perspective it's pretty easy to see how that resentment builds from these little inconsequential issues.
I would have been angry and hurt and gone on the defensive. I would have pouted, he would have shut down...You know the drill. We wouldn't have resolved anything, just added another layer to that resentment snowball.
So, what to do?
I read recently that we often say I love you but...and as we see written here often, when you say but, everything that comes before it is negated. The advice was to say I love you and...so I tried that.
When we got home I said "I love you and about the porch furniture, if you disagree with something I want to do, I'd like for you to tell me No from the get go. It's confusing when you don't and telling me how tacky it was going to look hurt. (my creativity is a big part of what makes me, me) If you say no, I can deal with that. I may not like it but it won't be the end of the world. I'll get over it."
H: I thought you would understand by what I said that I didn't want pallet furniture on the porch.
LB: It's too hard to try and figure out what you mean or to read your mind and I could come to a completely wrong conclusion. My conclusion was, you weren't closed to the idea but needed convincing.
H: OK, I get it. I don't want pallet furniture on the porch.
This isn't easy because it's not yet automatic like our old responses were but it gets much better results. It's getting easier the more we practice it. It does take slowing down, letting go of outcomes and the need to be rigth, examining motives and keeping the R first.
We have friends who just did 11 days on the Appalachian Trail and next year plan to do the whole enchilada. I see Rs much like that, some days the trail is easy, some days it might rain and be a mucky mess. One day you're on the mountaintop, the next may bring a long deep valley. The trick is to keep the overall goal in mind and just do what you need to do each moment of each day.
Seems trivial but it's these little issues that occur on a regular basis that get the resentment snowball rolling. Before you know it, it's big enough to bury you.
I wanted to make furniture out of pallets for our front porch. I like to recycle things, I'm creative, I've done similar projects in the past and this was a great opportunity (I thought).
H was hesitant, but he didn't say, "No, I'm not going for that." He hemmed and hawed. Yesterday we were on a bike ride and saw a stack of about 5 pallets. Yes! I said "You and S21 could come get those later."(I had to go to work) His response, "I'm not going to do that, it'll be a lot of work (I hadn't asked him to do anything but pick them up) and will end up looking tacky! I don't want them on my front porch."
We were through the hemming and hawing stage and went straight to p!ssed off and attacking.
I took a deep breath and thought about this as we continued to ride. I could see how we had done this our whole married lives, he not able to risk confrontation with a straight out no until he's p!ssed, me seeing that hemming and hawing as an opening to keep pushing for what I wanted. From my current perspective it's pretty easy to see how that resentment builds from these little inconsequential issues.
I would have been angry and hurt and gone on the defensive. I would have pouted, he would have shut down...You know the drill. We wouldn't have resolved anything, just added another layer to that resentment snowball.
So, what to do?
I read recently that we often say I love you but...and as we see written here often, when you say but, everything that comes before it is negated. The advice was to say I love you and...so I tried that.
When we got home I said "I love you and about the porch furniture, if you disagree with something I want to do, I'd like for you to tell me No from the get go. It's confusing when you don't and telling me how tacky it was going to look hurt. (my creativity is a big part of what makes me, me) If you say no, I can deal with that. I may not like it but it won't be the end of the world. I'll get over it."
H: I thought you would understand by what I said that I didn't want pallet furniture on the porch.
LB: It's too hard to try and figure out what you mean or to read your mind and I could come to a completely wrong conclusion. My conclusion was, you weren't closed to the idea but needed convincing.
H: OK, I get it. I don't want pallet furniture on the porch.
This isn't easy because it's not yet automatic like our old responses were but it gets much better results. It's getting easier the more we practice it. It does take slowing down, letting go of outcomes and the need to be rigth, examining motives and keeping the R first.
We have friends who just did 11 days on the Appalachian Trail and next year plan to do the whole enchilada. I see Rs much like that, some days the trail is easy, some days it might rain and be a mucky mess. One day you're on the mountaintop, the next may bring a long deep valley. The trick is to keep the overall goal in mind and just do what you need to do each moment of each day.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/10/14 08:17 PM
Hi Labug
Great post and timely..
This is our scenario.. a proposal, no definite answer I think there is a place to negotiate but it is just seen as manipulating and controlling.
I will keep this in mind..
Guess you both have to be open to listening..
Great post and timely..
This is our scenario.. a proposal, no definite answer I think there is a place to negotiate but it is just seen as manipulating and controlling.
I will keep this in mind..
Guess you both have to be open to listening..
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/11/14 11:40 PM
Bug, you're so wise. I love the Appalachian Trail analogy. Just wanted to stop by to remind you I think of you often and I'm glad we're connected :-)
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/12/14 01:52 PM
Thanks, Tori.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/14/14 08:15 PM
Thank you for that post, Bug. It's basically the anatomy of a disagreement and seeing both sides as an outsider is helpful.
In my situation, I strongly suspect that if XW wanted the pallet furniture and I objected or said I didn't want it I would get tabbed with having to have everything my way and not being flexible. Similar arguments over similar issues occurred in the past. And by her definition from time to time, a "compromise" would be me giving in and letting her get the furniture.
Nowadays, I think I have better tools and understanding to work through stuff like this -- even though it does take a breath or two.
Thanks for posting.
Crimson
In my situation, I strongly suspect that if XW wanted the pallet furniture and I objected or said I didn't want it I would get tabbed with having to have everything my way and not being flexible. Similar arguments over similar issues occurred in the past. And by her definition from time to time, a "compromise" would be me giving in and letting her get the furniture.
Nowadays, I think I have better tools and understanding to work through stuff like this -- even though it does take a breath or two.
Thanks for posting.
Crimson
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/15/14 03:13 PM
Thanks for the comment, Crim.
If we don't learn from this stuff, wee are doomed to repeat it.
If we don't learn from this stuff, wee are doomed to repeat it.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/19/14 05:54 PM
How's it all going, Bug?
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/23/14 12:57 PM
labug - curious about some of the details that lead to your current status, couldn't find the info on your threads or maybe just didn't look hard enough. What helped you forgive your H for leaving once he decided to come back? Did he apologize or own up to anything? Did you two have any conversations about what happened during your S (like if he had dated or if someone else had been in the picture during that time) or were you able to tell yourself it didn't matter and not ask about it? Are you two doing MC at all?
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/24/14 11:43 AM
Originally Posted By: KGirl
labug - curious about some of the details that lead to your current status, couldn't find the info on your threads or maybe just didn't look hard enough. What helped you forgive your H for leaving once he decided to come back?
In the 3years-ish we were apart I gained a lot of perspective. I progressed from blaming him for everything, to blaming myself for everything, back to blaming him and then finally realizing we both played pretty equal parts in the breakdown. I suppose I did forgive him in a way but it feels more like I just let it go or I moved beyond it.
He didn't leave me to hurt me, he left to be happy. He was unable to do that living with me.
When I was able to really focus inward and be brutally honest with myself, I could understand why he needed to leave. And he had stayed and he had tried, to his way of thinking.
I have thanked him, because without the BD, I don't know that I would be where I am today. Even with all the pain, I wouldn't change what happened, I needed that big 2x4 from the universe to wake me up.
Quote:
Did he apologize or own up to anything?
We have both apologized to one another as things come up along the way.
Quote:
Did you two have any conversations about what happened during your S (like if he had dated or if someone else had been in the picture during that time) or were you able to tell yourself it didn't matter and not ask about it?
Quote:
Are you two doing MC at all?
I thought about it when we first started moving toward each other and decided I would have a wait and see attitude. If it looked like we needed help, we'd find it. So far it hasn't been an issue.I go to counseling regularly.
If I felt we needed MC but he didn't, we'd have to re-evaluate the situation.
It is true that changing self does change all our relationships. That's why my mantra is focus on you.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/27/14 03:14 PM
I've continued to think about the forgiveness question and I think who I really learned to forgive was me.
I was a very harsh judge of myself and when we are extremely critical of ourselves, we are usually just as critical of others.
So in learning to accept me as I am, without judging every little thing, forgiving myself when I'm not perfect, I can extend that same grace to others.
And let the past be the past.
I was a very harsh judge of myself and when we are extremely critical of ourselves, we are usually just as critical of others.
So in learning to accept me as I am, without judging every little thing, forgiving myself when I'm not perfect, I can extend that same grace to others.
And let the past be the past.
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/27/14 05:58 PM
Hi Bug! The story of the proposed pallet furniture was great. It really sounds like you are making great progress!
Re: This, That and The Other - 04/30/14 08:10 PM
Bug, I’ve been reading along about your journey. What you wrote in your answers to KGirl’s questions so resonate with me.
I could write the same things about my sitch.
It would go the same way with me and H, if we would get back together.
I think there so many similarities in our stories. I don’t think that the subject of MC would come up in my case either. And H has not been dating anyone after almost 2 years since BD.
Was your H looking to date someone and just could not find the right person, or he never wanted to date? If I remember correctly, I think you mentioned he had an EA. I might be wrong. My H is looking for a “harmonious” relationship with somebody, but I guess he hasn’t found one yet.
Bug, I always like reading your updates. Thanks for sharing.
Originally Posted By: labug
By the time we got back together, there wasn't really anything to forgive or perhaps I just don't think of it that way. I've thought about this since I read your post yesterday. Forgive? Did I forgive? What did I forgive?
In the 3years-ish we were apart I gained a lot of perspective. I progressed from blaming him for everything, to blaming myself for everything, back to blaming him and then finally realizing we both played pretty equal parts in the breakdown. I suppose I did forgive him in a way but it feels more like I just let it go or I moved beyond it.
He didn't leave me to hurt me, he left to be happy. He was unable to do that living with me.
When I was able to really focus inward and be brutally honest with myself, I could understand why he needed to leave. And he had stayed and he had tried, to his way of thinking.
In the 3years-ish we were apart I gained a lot of perspective. I progressed from blaming him for everything, to blaming myself for everything, back to blaming him and then finally realizing we both played pretty equal parts in the breakdown. I suppose I did forgive him in a way but it feels more like I just let it go or I moved beyond it.
He didn't leave me to hurt me, he left to be happy. He was unable to do that living with me.
When I was able to really focus inward and be brutally honest with myself, I could understand why he needed to leave. And he had stayed and he had tried, to his way of thinking.
I could write the same things about my sitch.
Originally Posted By: labug
We have both apologized to one another as things come up along the way.
It would go the same way with me and H, if we would get back together.
I think there so many similarities in our stories. I don’t think that the subject of MC would come up in my case either. And H has not been dating anyone after almost 2 years since BD.
Was your H looking to date someone and just could not find the right person, or he never wanted to date? If I remember correctly, I think you mentioned he had an EA. I might be wrong. My H is looking for a “harmonious” relationship with somebody, but I guess he hasn’t found one yet.
Bug, I always like reading your updates. Thanks for sharing.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/01/14 03:16 PM
I don't know what he thought about dating. It's just not that important to me. It was initially, but as in all things, our feelings change.
We were apart for a long time, if he felt ready and wanted to I'm sure he would have.
He didn't have an EA at least not that I'm aware of. I think we all have fantasies about people.
We were apart for a long time, if he felt ready and wanted to I'm sure he would have.
He didn't have an EA at least not that I'm aware of. I think we all have fantasies about people.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/02/14 10:07 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
I was a very harsh judge of myself and when we are extremely critical of ourselves, we are usually just as critical of others.
So in learning to accept me as I am, without judging every little thing, forgiving myself when I'm not perfect, I can extend that same grace to others.
And let the past be the past.
I like this post. Wonder if this is also often paired with "controlling" traits?
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/03/14 02:44 AM
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
I like this post. Wonder if this is also often paired with "controlling" traits?
It was for me.
Sitting in judgement of others is the ultimate control, isn't it?
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/03/14 01:12 PM
Thanks, labug, for sharing your thoughts and responding to my questions. I think I still have a lot more thinking and reflection to do.
I get that... but it doesn't change the fact, for me, that it still hurt. And right now I feel like I'd need some acknowledgement of that (not a "well, I had to do what I had to do to be happy, it is what it is, I'm not really sorry about it") if we were to move forward. There are so many other ways he could have expressed his unhappiness or communicated with me about what we could do, than skipping right to "I want a D." At least, that's the current story in my mind. I've been in this for so much less time, maybe as time goes on and the initial sting fades, it would be different. My current forgiveness tolerance is a lot lower than yours... maybe it can be bumped up a little
Quote:
He didn't leave me to hurt me, he left to be happy. He was unable to do that living with me.
I get that... but it doesn't change the fact, for me, that it still hurt. And right now I feel like I'd need some acknowledgement of that (not a "well, I had to do what I had to do to be happy, it is what it is, I'm not really sorry about it") if we were to move forward. There are so many other ways he could have expressed his unhappiness or communicated with me about what we could do, than skipping right to "I want a D." At least, that's the current story in my mind. I've been in this for so much less time, maybe as time goes on and the initial sting fades, it would be different. My current forgiveness tolerance is a lot lower than yours... maybe it can be bumped up a little
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/03/14 01:46 PM
BTW, I was reading through your older posts - I appreciated how when things started to change this past fall, you linked back to an older post (Nov. 2012, I think?) where you had the convo w/ your H where he was DONE and wanted to get things settled but didn't want to hurt your feelings, etc. Every situation is different but... it gives me hope that things may change with some time and thought.
You've talked about how you and your H didn't interact that often, but yet it was the changes he saw in you that led him "back"... were you actively trying to use those limited times together to show what was different or was it just naturally who you were at that point, but enough was different that he could see it even if you saw each other for 10, 20 minutes? I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but hard to type out. How did you show you've changed when you have limited interaction, I guess, is my question?
You've talked about how you and your H didn't interact that often, but yet it was the changes he saw in you that led him "back"... were you actively trying to use those limited times together to show what was different or was it just naturally who you were at that point, but enough was different that he could see it even if you saw each other for 10, 20 minutes? I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but hard to type out. How did you show you've changed when you have limited interaction, I guess, is my question?
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/03/14 02:36 PM
Originally Posted By: KGirl
Thanks, labug, for sharing your thoughts and responding to my questions. I think I still have a lot more thinking and reflection to do.
I get that... but it doesn't change the fact, for me, that it still hurt. And right now I feel like I'd need some acknowledgement of that (not a "well, I had to do what I had to do to be happy, it is what it is, I'm not really sorry about it") if we were to move forward. There are so many other ways he could have expressed his unhappiness or communicated with me about what we could do, than skipping right to "I want a D." At least, that's the current story in my mind. I've been in this for so much less time, maybe as time goes on and the initial sting fades, it would be different. My current forgiveness tolerance is a lot lower than yours... maybe it can be bumped up a little
Quote:
He didn't leave me to hurt me, he left to be happy. He was unable to do that living with me.
I get that... but it doesn't change the fact, for me, that it still hurt. And right now I feel like I'd need some acknowledgement of that (not a "well, I had to do what I had to do to be happy, it is what it is, I'm not really sorry about it") if we were to move forward. There are so many other ways he could have expressed his unhappiness or communicated with me about what we could do, than skipping right to "I want a D." At least, that's the current story in my mind. I've been in this for so much less time, maybe as time goes on and the initial sting fades, it would be different. My current forgiveness tolerance is a lot lower than yours... maybe it can be bumped up a little
It does hurt, hurts a lot. Did you read my early threads? I spent 6 months going to work, coming home and going to bed. That revealed something I needed to work on. Yes, I was grieving but I was also retelling my inner stories about me being a victim over and over.
I think our work is to figure out how to let go of that hurt, separating who we really are from what we think the action of another leaving us says about us.
What if you never get that from your H? Will that change who you are?
There are so many other ways he could have expressed his unhappiness or communicated with me about what we could do, than skipping right to "I want a D."This is very true and I said it many times in the past.
The fact is, he didn't choose another way and me wishing he had wouldn't change that. The hurt I was holding on to about that was mine to deal with. Over time as I realized we were pretty much 50-50 in the blame department. There are many ways I, too, could have done things differently in our R. I was able to let go of that need for a pound of flesh and forgive, I guess.
Anyone can apologize, it takes much more strength to reflect inward, see where we're lacking and make changes. I saw that in my H and continue to see it. I hope he sees the same in me.
Recognize that today you feel you would want an apology for the hurt you felt and let it go. All feelings change with time.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/03/14 02:42 PM
Originally Posted By: KGirl
You've talked about how you and your H didn't interact that often, but yet it was the changes he saw in you that led him "back"... were you actively trying to use those limited times together to show what was different or was it just naturally who you were at that point, but enough was different that he could see it even if you saw each other for 10, 20 minutes? I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but hard to type out. How did you show you've changed when you have limited interaction, I guess, is my question?
Of course, in the beginning I was actively working on all my interactions, not just those with him. This was very new territory for me and it was work.
When we make changes from the inside out, they show even in the way we walk, or hold our head or the inflection in our voice. I was no longer "trying," it was me. I was also no longer focused on us being together.
Keep the focus on you, you don't know where you might be led. By being narrowly focused on the outcomes, we miss great opportunities along the way.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/04/14 12:51 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
I like this post. Wonder if this is also often paired with "controlling" traits?
It was for me.
Sitting in judgement of others is the ultimate control, isn't it?
Yes, I suppose it is. And such a hard habit to break........
Especially when one know what is best! lol
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/04/14 02:24 PM
:-D You say that in jest, I know but if you're anything like me, there's a strong streak of how you really feel.
I have to shake my head and let go of judging others just about every day. But what I've learned is that I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me. I can have the tendency to build myself up by tearing others down.
SF, leave your interactions with you W to the side. How are your interactions/relationships with others? Do you have friends who you regularly do things with? (do you judge me for ending a sentence with a preposition? )
Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?
I have to shake my head and let go of judging others just about every day. But what I've learned is that I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me. I can have the tendency to build myself up by tearing others down.
SF, leave your interactions with you W to the side. How are your interactions/relationships with others? Do you have friends who you regularly do things with? (do you judge me for ending a sentence with a preposition?
)Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/04/14 02:39 PM
ed. I've learned is that what I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/06/14 02:51 PM
labug, thanks for you comments above.
I have some initial thoughts in response that I will transfer over to my thread so that this one doesn't become cluttered with my situation.
I have some initial thoughts in response that I will transfer over to my thread so that this one doesn't become cluttered with my situation.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/06/14 04:53 PM
But I made tea and coffee.
There's enough room at this table for everyone.
There's enough room at this table for everyone.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/06/14 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
But I made tea and coffee.
There's enough room at this table for everyone.
There's enough room at this table for everyone.
love this ^^^ gotta try to keep a sense of humor right. ok - I'll respond here for now and see how that goes......
Originally Posted By: labug
:-D You say that in jest, I know but if you're anything like me, there's a strong streak of how you really feel.
^^^^ was completely joking.
I think that years ago – when I was younger and just out of the Marine Corps (and a tad arrogant ). I had a tendency to be much more black and white and judgmental of others actions. Often never saying anything to them but certainly internally evaluating and would make comments to W about what I had observed, seen on TV, etc…
I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do – even a WAS.
I do still have a low tolerance for situations where people deflect responsibility, try to take advantage of elderly or children and people who are not honest/loyal/committed to what they say they will do. Also have a high standard for myself and my family which I occasionally have to reign in.
In cases involving ^^^^ I suppose there is a chance that what I say or act would come across as judgmental – especially to those who know me well. Will have to think about that some more…
One of the interesting things about this whole experience is that the longer it goes (and the older my kids – and I – get) the less judgmental I think I am – and certainly the less I say about any of it to anyone, now including my W. In general, I believe that I am optimistic by nature, will help anyone with almost anything and tend to give folks multiple chances – to a point that often borders being taken advantage of…
I don’t think that this has always been the case, but in general I have been moving this direction over the past 15 years or so – maybe that’s what comes with age, children and maturity!!!!!!!
What has been interesting is that in some ways W and I seem to have switched places. Over the past couple of years she has become more judgmental, angry, quick to react emotionally, etc. Hmmm………
Originally Posted By: labug
I have to shake my head and let go of judging others just about every day. But what I've learned is that I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me. I can have the tendency to build myself up by tearing others down.
I don’t think that my tendency was ever to tear others down – if anything it was more of an evaluation of how I either would or had handled things differently / better. So not berating / belittling others but maybe the evaluating is just as damaging anyway. Agree on the point that many of the traits that bothered me the most relate to things I don’t like in me.
For me I think that quiet judging / evaluating also speaks to a certain level of insecurity. I often will not say much or provide an opinion on something unless I am relatively comfortable that I am accurate – if not I will just keep opinion to myself until I have more information and can be more knowledgeable.
Originally Posted By: labug
SF, leave your interactions with you W to the side. How are your interactions/relationships with others? Do you have friends who you regularly do things with? (do you judge me for ending a sentence with a preposition? )
)Certainly would never judge anything grammatical – have you seen some of my ramblings???
I have a couple of close friends that I do things with occasionally – not sure what constitutes regularly though. Some of the things include an annual ski day, play in a ff league together, couple of golf tournaments, grab a drink every now and then, watch football/baseball games together, have coached youth sports teams together, college madness, etc…..
Trying to work on increasing this though – I am an introvert and homebody by nature. Trying to even incorporate some of this into worklife by scheduling lunches with colleagues – w/o a specific purpose in mind other than conversation.
Originally Posted By: labug
Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?
Coming back to ^^^^ but this post felt like it was getting long.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/07/14 07:08 PM
My judging is rarely ever overt, it usually takes place in my head but then my reaction to the judgment can come out sideways, what some might call passive/aggressive. I want to get the point across that I know better in subtle "helping" or manipulative ways. It's taken a lot of being aware of my patterns to realize this and let it go.
I know that the less I feel in control of me, the more I attempt to control things outside of me.
I know that the less I feel in control of me, the more I attempt to control things outside of me.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/07/14 08:39 PM
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
Originally Posted By: labug
Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?
Since about the 4th or 5th year of our nearly 22 yr marriage, I have been the primary $$$ earner. We made decision that it was important to us to have one parent at home with young kids and we decided at the time that it should be W.
In general we have been blessed in the fact that $$$ have never been a major issue for us. Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side. Both of us grew in families that had enough but not much.
Until awhile after B-date, this wasn’t a problem – at least not an acknowledged one. W managed the budget, bills and household finances and I went to work to earn/provide. There were a couple of very minor arguments when cc balances had grown and W had hid that from me – 2 different times writing me letters and leaving them in the car for me to find outlining the situation and telling me how sorry she was about not telling me about the situation.
At times I was irritated about the spending and lack of $$$ mgmt but just dealt with it and rationalized that what I was getting in return (i.e. parent at home with children, household upkeep, companionship, life parter, physical connection, etc….) was worth it and addressing the issue was not worth the conflict.
The family dynamic for me growing up was similar – dad was saver, mom was spender, didn’t have much “extra” and often paid bills late (sometimes after power, water, etc was turned off). Ughh – not fun times!!! I am sure that is one of the reasons that I am still frugal to this day even though we have been blessed in that area and are nowhere close to being the same situation as growing up.
While all of our setup may have worked when M was ok and W was engaged, I am finding it harder and harder to not feel angry/resentful/hurt/disrespected etc… when similar things happen now.
Does any of that make sense????
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/09/14 02:36 PM
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
$$$ is almost always an interesting / touchy topic isn’t it? I remember going to our pre-M weekend and one of the couples saying that the 2 most important (and most argued about) topics in a M are often $$$ and sex.
Yes, money is interesting and it can be a trigger for me. That's a disclaimer. We do sometimes give money more power than love in our Rs.
When you heard that wise fact at your pre-marital weekend, what did you do with it? Probably nothing, because we all think were bullet-proof when we're young.
Quote:
In general we have been blessed in the fact that $$$ have never been a major issue for us.
Then why is it an issue now?
Quote:
Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side.
Does your W agree with your assessment? Do you see this as either/or? Have the 2 of you discussed these differences?
Quote:
Until awhile after B-date, this wasn’t a problem – at least not an acknowledged one.
Think more about this. Are you being completely honest? If it wasn't a problem then it wouldn't be a problem now.
We pack those resentments into a bag and then something opens the bag just a little and they all come exploding out. Resentment can be silent but deadly.
Quote:
W managed the budget, bills and household finances and I went to work to earn/provide.
Did your W want to do the finances? Had she had experience with it? Did you talk about money much?
Quote:
There were a couple of very minor arguments when cc balances had grown and W had hid that from me – 2 different times writing me letters and leaving them in the car for me to find outlining the situation and telling me how sorry she was about not telling me about the situation.
Minor as assessed by you or did you both agree they were minor? How were things resolved?
Were they truly minor if you still remember them today?
Why do you think she wrote a letter to tell you about the money issue?
Quote:
At times I was irritated about the spending and lack of $$$ mgmt but just dealt with it and rationalized that what I was getting in return (i.e. parent at home with children, household upkeep, companionship, life parter, physical connection, etc….) was worth it and addressing the issue was not worth the conflict.
It's interesting that there's no mention of love here.
Would you handle the conflict differently today?
Did you think she wasn't capable of change?
What were you afraid of?
Quote:
The family dynamic for me growing up was similar – dad was saver, mom was spender, didn’t have much “extra” and often paid bills late (sometimes after power, water, etc was turned off). Ughh – not fun times!!! I am sure that is one of the reasons that I am still frugal to this day even though we have been blessed in that area and are nowhere close to being the same situation as growing up.
But you're still back there and reliving that scenario. Why?
There can be a bigger box than the one to which you're accustomed.
When you let go it crates space for change to happen.
Quote:
While all of our setup may have worked when M was ok and W was engaged, I am finding it harder and harder to not feel angry/resentful/hurt/disrespected etc… when similar things happen now.
It's OK to feel all of those things. The difficulty comes when we begin assigning blame to others for how we feel.
Where does your hurt come from? What is your mind telling you about what's going on?
The other side of the coin could be that she feels she's given much more to the family than you have over the years. That's mind reading but not without precedent and she has said something alluding to that. As I think I've shared with you in the past, I've done the whole gamut of mom duties, SAHM, worked PT, worked FT with my H as the SAHD. The easiest was the last. It was difficult emotionally to be away from the kids so much but otherwise, cake.
There is a whiff of "I make the money so I get to make the rules." You know how you can be standing outside on a cool, clear morning and you get a whiff of wood smoke? You can't quite tell exactly where it's coming from or whether it's a camp fire or a forest fire but you know there's a fire.
I brought this over from ces' thread.
Quote:
I think that if more folks did this ^^^ there would be lot less of the selfish, me first, instant gratitude, only do what makes me happy, inability or lack of desire to work hard traits present in the current culture.
What happened to this guy "I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do"
I know this is a lot or questions and you don't have to answer then all here. Just think about them, really reflect on choices you've made in your marriage and how you might do things differently, or not.
This is your life and your journey, only you have your answers.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/09/14 03:20 PM
Lots to think about but love your perspective and the continued interest in helping me (and many others here......)
Thanks labug!
Thanks labug!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/11/14 03:33 PM
It's Mother's Day and although I see the holiday as a bit contrived, I'm happy to have both of my sons here with me. S25 and his GF are here from Canada to attend his University graduation next week. (Crimson, I'll be in your territory)
I've been doing some letting go in the last couple of weeks in the S25 dept. Now that he's graduating he will really be moving on and I'm realizing on a gut level that he won't ever "live" here again. I know many adult kids to move back but even then, it's not the same I would guess. So there's been some sadness and happiness but it's all good.
I had a dream this morning of S25 at 4 or 5 yrs, holding onto my neck crying because he missed me and he loved me. I was comforting him but also enjoying that moment of 'mommy, you are everything.'
I know I'm not 'everything' to him now and that's as it should be but I will always be his Mom.
And some people say our dreams don't mean anything.
S21 is making great strides in him treatment. It's as if he had this revelation that it's time and he's moving forward. he even talks openly with his H and I about his struggles. This is groundbreaking as he's NEVER done this in the past. His shame kept him stuck.
I recall many therapy sessions (mine) saying to IC, 'if he would only talk about it so I could understand.'
Patience and love, patience and love. After trying everything else it all comes down to those 2 things.
In the M, things are going well. It's amazing that we can actually talk about conflict now. I'm much more open about it than he is, but he's catching up. I think it's scary for him but the more open we can be, with a side of patience and love, the easier it gets.
We had a funny set-to yesterday about keys, etc on my key ring. We were in my car so he had my keys. One of the things on my ring is a small tape measure which I use a lot. We went to a store, i saw a rug and wanted to measure it. I didn't have my tape as he had taken the attachment off the key ring. When I asked where the tape was, he gruffly said "I'm not carrying all that stuff in my pocket." (he was already in defense mode and this is not the first time I've heard about my having too many things on the key ring that he doesn't want to carry.)
Now in the past we could have turned this in to a day-long resentment-laced-with-anger fest. Stony silences, sideways insults, etc.
I let it go and said I'd come back some other time and check it out, meanwhile I'd check the measurement of the rug we want to replace.
Later I brought up the incident of the keys and mentioned that I heard anger when he said he didn't want to carry all the stuff on my key ring. "I'm wasn't angry and I didn't sound like that."
"That's what I heard."
"But I wasn't."
"Okay, if this comes up again how about you look at me, smile and say: "I love you to death and I don't want to carry all that stuff on your key ring!"
We both burst out laughing.
There are also many ways we can deal with this issue.
Later that same day...we went out to dinner, H driving my car. S21 was home but left while we were out. When I walked up to the back door it was locked. I looked at H knowing the key to that door was on the section he removed from my key ring. We looked at each other and laughed.
But H, being who he is, had a key to the front door hidden away.
Life, it's good when you let it be.
I've been doing some letting go in the last couple of weeks in the S25 dept. Now that he's graduating he will really be moving on and I'm realizing on a gut level that he won't ever "live" here again. I know many adult kids to move back but even then, it's not the same I would guess. So there's been some sadness and happiness but it's all good.
I had a dream this morning of S25 at 4 or 5 yrs, holding onto my neck crying because he missed me and he loved me. I was comforting him but also enjoying that moment of 'mommy, you are everything.'
I know I'm not 'everything' to him now and that's as it should be but I will always be his Mom.
And some people say our dreams don't mean anything.
S21 is making great strides in him treatment. It's as if he had this revelation that it's time and he's moving forward. he even talks openly with his H and I about his struggles. This is groundbreaking as he's NEVER done this in the past. His shame kept him stuck.
I recall many therapy sessions (mine) saying to IC, 'if he would only talk about it so I could understand.'
Patience and love, patience and love. After trying everything else it all comes down to those 2 things.
In the M, things are going well. It's amazing that we can actually talk about conflict now. I'm much more open about it than he is, but he's catching up. I think it's scary for him but the more open we can be, with a side of patience and love, the easier it gets.
We had a funny set-to yesterday about keys, etc on my key ring. We were in my car so he had my keys. One of the things on my ring is a small tape measure which I use a lot. We went to a store, i saw a rug and wanted to measure it. I didn't have my tape as he had taken the attachment off the key ring. When I asked where the tape was, he gruffly said "I'm not carrying all that stuff in my pocket." (he was already in defense mode and this is not the first time I've heard about my having too many things on the key ring that he doesn't want to carry.)
Now in the past we could have turned this in to a day-long resentment-laced-with-anger fest. Stony silences, sideways insults, etc.
I let it go and said I'd come back some other time and check it out, meanwhile I'd check the measurement of the rug we want to replace.
Later I brought up the incident of the keys and mentioned that I heard anger when he said he didn't want to carry all the stuff on my key ring. "I'm wasn't angry and I didn't sound like that."
"That's what I heard."
"But I wasn't."
"Okay, if this comes up again how about you look at me, smile and say: "I love you to death and I don't want to carry all that stuff on your key ring!"
We both burst out laughing.
There are also many ways we can deal with this issue.
Later that same day...we went out to dinner, H driving my car. S21 was home but left while we were out. When I walked up to the back door it was locked. I looked at H knowing the key to that door was on the section he removed from my key ring. We looked at each other and laughed.
But H, being who he is, had a key to the front door hidden away.
Life, it's good when you let it be.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/11/14 03:44 PM
"There are also many ways we can deal with this issue."
Mindfulness has taught he not to sweat the small stuff.
Mindfulness has taught he not to sweat the small stuff.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/13/14 08:18 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
$$$ is almost always an interesting / touchy topic isn’t it? I remember going to our pre-M weekend and one of the couples saying that the 2 most important (and most argued about) topics in a M are often $$$ and sex.
Yes, money is interesting and it can be a trigger for me. That's a disclaimer. We do sometimes give money more power than love in our Rs.
When you heard that wise fact at your pre-marital weekend, what did you do with it? Probably nothing, because we all think were bullet-proof when we're young.
We talked about it quite a bit during the weekend. And maybe even early on on M but then lgot busy with other things (kids, careers, etc…) and since we were blessed enough to have the $$$ we wanted/needed it seemed not to come up.
Originally Posted By: labug
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
In general we have been blessed in the fact that $$$ have never been a major issue for us.
Then why is it an issue now?
Quote:
Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side.
Does your W agree with your assessment? Do you see this as either/or? Have the 2 of you discussed these differences?
Quote:
Until awhile after B-date, this wasn’t a problem – at least not an acknowledged one.
Think more about this. Are you being completely honest? If it wasn't a problem then it wouldn't be a problem now.
We pack those resentments into a bag and then something opens the bag just a little and they all come exploding out. Resentment can be silent but deadly.
Have thought about ^^^^. I think my point about it being an “acknowledged” problem is the key. It was there but a problem I “managed” because of what I saw as the perceived benefits of being in the R. Now that those benefits are no longer present it becomes tougher to keep the bag closed.
The bag hasn’t exploded in a negative way yet – I guess I am just tired of carrying it around w/me. And right now, not quite sure of how to get rid of the building resentment. The way I did it before was to weigh the benefits and risks – and when the R was operating normally there seemed to be more benefit than risk.
Originally Posted By: labug
[quote=SemperFi00]
I brought this over from ces' thread.
What happened to this guy "I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do"
I brought this over from ces' thread.
Quote:
I think that if more folks did this ^^^ there would be lot less of the selfish, me first, instant gratitude, only do what makes me happy, inability or lack of desire to work hard traits present in the current culture.
What happened to this guy "I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do"
I like this guy ^^^ I have become over the past years but sometimes still have to find him…….
In all seriousness it is who I am now the vast majority of the time – I think that’s why I am so aware of my feelings etc when I am not there. And you are right in pointing out that $$$ are still a trigger for me for some reason that I don’t fully understand yet – other than recognizing that part of it comes from childhood experiences……
And part of the overall sense of frustration is that things are not equitable right now - in many areas, some $$$ related and some not…
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/19/14 01:39 PM
There were a lot of questions I asked that didn't get answered.
Did you think about them and answer then for yourself?
What do you do when you get uncomfortable with something inside you?
Do you recognize when you feel anger? I'm not talking about rip-roaring anger but the small anger we often feel every day.
Did you think about them and answer then for yourself?
What do you do when you get uncomfortable with something inside you?
Do you recognize when you feel anger? I'm not talking about rip-roaring anger but the small anger we often feel every day.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/20/14 01:41 PM
I know I've asked about anger before, but that's what keeps coming up.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/22/14 02:23 PM
This happy mama wants to report that her son did indeed graduate from college and did it magna cum laude.
What a great day it was despite all of us being tested early in the day. But that's a story I'll share later. This post is about joy at seeing my son so happy in his accomplishment.
What a great day it was despite all of us being tested early in the day. But that's a story I'll share later. This post is about joy at seeing my son so happy in his accomplishment.
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 02:30 AM
Yay! What a tremendous accomplishment; I'm so happy for you and your son!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 03:01 AM
congrats bug! that is awesome! enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!!!!!!!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 12:10 PM
That's awesome!!! Much to celebrate!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 04:03 PM
What?! You were in Tempe and you didn't call??
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 04:15 PM
That's phenomenal labug! I am sure you are very proud of him!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 04:41 PM
Thanks everyone, it was a great day!
Crimson, I thought about you!
Crimson, I thought about you!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 05:36 PM
First cocktail is always on me, Bug....next time you're on Mill Ave!!!
Re: This, That and The Other - 05/23/14 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side.
Does your W agree with your assessment? Do you see this as either/or? Have the 2 of you discussed these differences?
Don’t see it as either/or and I think W would agree w/the characterization. Of course we didn’t discuss it – that’s just silly talk…….
In the past I just buried my feelings about it and worked harder to provide more. At the time, that worked I guess because I perceived there to be enough offsetting benefits on other parts of the R.
I don’t recall feeling angry or resentful then – just some mild frustration. I didn’t want to argue w/W about it so I chalked it up to just being one of her quirks (we all have them – we like and are comfortable with our own right?), part of making compromises / balancing each other out and being in a long term relationship.
I am finding it harder to maintain that same perspective and approach given the current situation.
Originally Posted By: labug
Originally Posted By: SemperFi00
At times I was irritated about the spending and lack of $$$ mgmt but just dealt with it and rationalized that what I was getting in return (i.e. parent at home with children, household upkeep, companionship, life parter, physical connection, etc….) was worth it and addressing the issue was not worth the conflict.
It's interesting that there's no mention of love here.
Would you handle the conflict differently today?
Did you think she wasn't capable of change?
What were you afraid of?
To me some of the things above speak about love (i.e. companionship, life partner, physical connection) but maybe I am missing something from your ?. Given what I know now, I would certainly expect to be more aware of the conflict and would handle it differently.
It wasn’t about me thinking she wasn’t (or was) capable of change. I suppose it was more about me not wanting to take the same position my father also seemed to take – that there was never $$$ for anything and always in a position to say no. To be fair, growing up his position was usually that out of necessity.
I want/wanted to be able to “provide” everything for W & kids (within some level of reason) and it made me feel good when I could do that.
My mother was a little “spoiled” growing up being the youngest of 4. Got most of what she wanted and when she didn’t could make it miserable to be around her. That continued into their M and often times she handled things the same way when she didn’t get what she wanted – I can even remember a couple times when she us kids away for a few days when she and my dad had arguments.
I am sure that ^^^^ also contributed to my trying to minimize any potential conflict w/W.
Holy cr@p, as I am writing this out I am realizing that W is very similar to mother in terms of $$$$ mgmt., spending vs saver etc….
Interesting, huh?
Re: This, That and The Other - 06/08/14 09:17 PM
Bug, congratulation on your son’s graduation! I cannot wait for my son to do the same. How are you doing these days? I’m always waiting for your new posts.
Re: This, That and The Other - 06/11/14 04:39 PM
Thanks for checking in, Bright!
Life goes on, good happens, not so good happens. I'm more able now to just roll with it, the ups and downs of life. I've let go of the thought that when X happens, then I'll be happy. I can choose to be happy. I continue to look for things to be grateful for everyday.
On the gratitude front, S21 has been opening up more to us about his MH issues and has agreed to see a different therapist. H and I have thought for a while that it's a needed change but S21 wasn't there yet. Now he says he is. We are optimistic but will keep expectations in check. As H reminded me, baby steps.
An interesting thing happened this past weekend. H is in the process of applying for his passport. Our S24 is living in Canada now and we have plans to visit him there this summer. No reservations yet, just plans. In my previous life, I would have been on H daily about getting the passport work done. Now!
I haven't asked or reminded him of it and he's been getting things together and had an appt on Sat to turn the paperwork, pay the fee, etc.
Saturday morning he realizes he can't find his birth certificate.
I could feel the anxiety (it's a very real physical "sick" feeling in the pit of the stomach) growing. So I took some deep breaths and just let it be. I offered to help him look but didn't allow his distress to become my distress. I don't want to make it sound like it was easy but I just kept coming back to me.
Interesting side note, we keep all those important things in a firebox and I remember getting in there for something not long after H moved out and his BC wasn't there. I can remember feeling very sad about that and thinking "He really means it, he took his BC!"
H looked various places and couldn't find it, so canceled his appt and then started the process to get a copy from Ohio. Which will take some time. I stayed out of it, completely.
I didn't comment, I didn't correct, I didn't preach. I asked myself how important is this? There's nothing driving when we go other than weather, so it may be fall and not summer. The anxiety came and went and at the end of the day no one was angry or hurt. H said at one point "I should have looked before today." He didn't need me to point that out to him. I used to think it was necessary for me to point out these things to others, to teach them a lesson. It isn't. People learn what they need to learn when they're ready to learn. Haranguing just gets in the way of the process and creates conflict.
This is not just me putting a good face on things. There was a moment or 2 of disappointment but maybe there's a reason we're supposed to go later. I'll roll with it. I have that choice.
I finished the MBSR course. It was a great experience for me. I'm now taking Tai chi and what a mental and physical workout that is! It looks so slow and fluid but it wakes up brain cells and muscles that I haven't used in years. This was another happy coincidence, a friend and I were looking for a class to take together and this was one that worked for both of our schedules. I'm really enjoying it and can feel those new neural pathways happening.
I know a lot of folks are still in the thick of BD aftermath, just keep coming back to you. Let others have their lives, their issues, their problems.
Keep looking inward, it's the only place we can find happiness.
Life goes on, good happens, not so good happens. I'm more able now to just roll with it, the ups and downs of life. I've let go of the thought that when X happens, then I'll be happy. I can choose to be happy. I continue to look for things to be grateful for everyday.
On the gratitude front, S21 has been opening up more to us about his MH issues and has agreed to see a different therapist. H and I have thought for a while that it's a needed change but S21 wasn't there yet. Now he says he is. We are optimistic but will keep expectations in check.
As H reminded me, baby steps. An interesting thing happened this past weekend. H is in the process of applying for his passport. Our S24 is living in Canada now and we have plans to visit him there this summer. No reservations yet, just plans. In my previous life, I would have been on H daily about getting the passport work done. Now!
I haven't asked or reminded him of it and he's been getting things together and had an appt on Sat to turn the paperwork, pay the fee, etc.
Saturday morning he realizes he can't find his birth certificate.
I could feel the anxiety (it's a very real physical "sick" feeling in the pit of the stomach) growing. So I took some deep breaths and just let it be. I offered to help him look but didn't allow his distress to become my distress. I don't want to make it sound like it was easy but I just kept coming back to me.Interesting side note, we keep all those important things in a firebox and I remember getting in there for something not long after H moved out and his BC wasn't there. I can remember feeling very sad about that and thinking "He really means it, he took his BC!"
H looked various places and couldn't find it, so canceled his appt and then started the process to get a copy from Ohio. Which will take some time. I stayed out of it, completely.
I didn't comment, I didn't correct, I didn't preach. I asked myself how important is this? There's nothing driving when we go other than weather, so it may be fall and not summer. The anxiety came and went and at the end of the day no one was angry or hurt. H said at one point "I should have looked before today." He didn't need me to point that out to him. I used to think it was necessary for me to point out these things to others, to teach them a lesson. It isn't. People learn what they need to learn when they're ready to learn. Haranguing just gets in the way of the process and creates conflict.
This is not just me putting a good face on things. There was a moment or 2 of disappointment but maybe there's a reason we're supposed to go later. I'll roll with it. I have that choice.
I finished the MBSR course. It was a great experience for me. I'm now taking Tai chi and what a mental and physical workout that is! It looks so slow and fluid but it wakes up brain cells and muscles that I haven't used in years. This was another happy coincidence, a friend and I were looking for a class to take together and this was one that worked for both of our schedules. I'm really enjoying it and can feel those new neural pathways happening.
I know a lot of folks are still in the thick of BD aftermath, just keep coming back to you. Let others have their lives, their issues, their problems.
Keep looking inward, it's the only place we can find happiness.
Re: This, That and The Other - 06/11/14 04:42 PM
So, so tough to stay ramrod still in your own sandbox at times, isn't it, Bug?!
Re: This, That and The Other - 06/11/14 05:09 PM
I want to share this cause I think it's so good and so true.
from Brene Brown on her 20th wedding anniversary.
"I'm so grateful that we found a way to keep showing up - even when it was tough and especially when we really didn't know how."
I didn't show up much of the time. Now I know better.
from Brene Brown on her 20th wedding anniversary.
"I'm so grateful that we found a way to keep showing up - even when it was tough and especially when we really didn't know how."
I didn't show up much of the time. Now I know better.
Re: This, That and The Other - 06/11/14 05:11 PM
Yes, Wonka, it is difficult, almost impossible, at first but when you just do the work and take the leap, it gets easier and easier.
Fear and ego often get in the way of progress.
Fear and ego often get in the way of progress.
Re: This, That and The Other - 07/30/14 01:49 AM
So what the latest good news with your story, Bug? It's depressing seeing no new news on the "Piecing" board for almost 2 months!
Crimson
Crimson
Re: This, That and The Other - 07/30/14 11:38 PM
Labug, I hope you're ok. It's difficult from here but I'd like to offer support. Will keep you in a special place in my prayers tonight.
Re: This, That and The Other - 07/31/14 06:17 PM
Hi Maybell and Crim, thanks for checking in.
Generally things are good. S21 is still struggling but I think we now have a good treatment team in place. One thing about life is you never know what's just around the corner. If we did we might never go anywhere. H and I have our first visit with S21 and his new psychologist tonight. I'm looking forward to hearing what his plan is.
Baby steps, patience and being comfortable with uncertainty, these things are true in all aspects of life.
Generally things are good. S21 is still struggling but I think we now have a good treatment team in place. One thing about life is you never know what's just around the corner. If we did we might never go anywhere.
H and I have our first visit with S21 and his new psychologist tonight. I'm looking forward to hearing what his plan is.Baby steps, patience and being comfortable with uncertainty, these things are true in all aspects of life.
Re: This, That and The Other - 07/31/14 10:38 PM
Thanks for chirping in, Bug - I've been curious. I'm glad S21 is getting assistance and support from you and H. My situation continues to evolve - long update post this morning.
Crimson
Crimson