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Posted By: Eryam I guess I can be here now - 12/13/11 09:53 PM
So I'm going to move on over to here seeing as I'm really piecing now. I saw 25 had written elsewhere that you never really stop piecing.... that your M should always be evolving... or something along those lines.

I feel like H and I are doing a lot better communicating, but there are still times and days where I am frustrated with him. At least I'm not having nightmares anymore. And at least most of the bad thoughts are gone.

But last night, for example, he went out to pick up a gift he had shipped to Best Buy. It took longer than he planned, and my phone was on silent (I hate it when I forget to turn it back up!). It was after about 2 hours that I thought, "oh my god, he's not coming back. He's flipped out again, and he's getting drunk at some bar and won't be back til 2 AM".

I talked myself on the ledge and continued doing housework. He came back at 10, with gift in hand, and another large purchase he made, explaining why he had taken so long.

I didn't tell him how I felt. I don't know if I should have.

We're still working through major personality differences (like, I'm a planner and scheduler, he's spontaneous and has no sense of time). I think that becoming parents has been great for our relationship though. I think we both find the other one being such a good parent really attractive. He's an amazing father. And he's told me he thinks I'm an amazing mother. And our child is, seriously, the happiest, most easy going baby I've ever encountered.

You ever feel like everything is going well, and you're just waiting for it to all fall apart? I kinda feel like that. Maybe it's just the stress from the holidays.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 12/13/11 10:28 PM
May

that feeling that the other shoe is going to drop, "because" things are going well

is one of my most neurotic fears. I get it. And I force myself to think it out LOGICALLY to its' end conclusion.

Do I really believe God, or the universe, is setting me up? That I'm being "tricked" into feeling good - only to have the floor yanked out from under me later...all to teach me WHAT? To "show me NOT to count on things!!!" ????


To parcel out happiness in small portions always to be outweighed by struggle and pain? Hmmm, I don't buy that. Not intellectually or spiritually, (though my internal neuroses still do battle.)

So yeah, Been there, done that. I actually once said out loud, that I was "afraid to say I'm the happiest I've ever been."

Why did I FEAR saying that? B/C of the above fears/beliefs/questions... That somehow the second "they" notice I'm happy, I will face a tragedy---for unexplained reasons.

And yet there may be an explanation-

I THINK, that at some deep core level it's the fear that I don't deserve to be happy, that triggers this.

Cognitively, I say screw that. Emotionally, I'm almost there...so I'll say it now:

I DESERVE TO BE HAPPY damn it, and so do you.

Be in the now, and embrace it.

Worst case scenario is that you are creating a happy memory for tomorrow- that you can look back on in the future, and know you did not ruin with fears of disaster...

best case scenario, you live a happy life that much longer and more fully...

So there's not a big downside to embracing the now, is there?
Posted By: angel61 Re: I guess I can be here now - 12/14/11 01:59 PM
HI May,

Glad that you are working it out.... I followed your sitch on and off, and always thought you were so strong. You are doing such a good job with your baby, I don't know if i could have done that. My daughter is 12 and yet I feel that I seriously neglected her when all of this started happening to me.

That said, I would just like to encourage you to continue with your efforts. 25 is so wise, she has been through this all. I notice that when piecing starts, it is when the LBS suddenly experiences the insecurities and suddenly withdraws. I am going through that too.

But we have made it this far, lets all hold each others' hand (virtually) and keep on going!

HUGS
Posted By: Harrier Re: I guess I can be here now - 12/14/11 03:29 PM
25, could you take a peek at my update when you get a chance.

(sorry to Hijack)
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 12/19/11 07:06 PM
dueinMay,
i believe its ok to have those feelings. as long as you control them - and they dont control you. everyone has them once in a while, when we're feeling self-doubt or weak or insecure. the trick is to realize they're just thoughts, and have nothing to do with reality. and when they start to bubble up, just squash them early.

theres the saying, its not how often you get knocked down, but how often you get back up.

and marriage is like that. will he be the perfect husband every moment of every day forever. No. nor will you be the perfect wife.

but its how you choose to handle those imperfect moments that determines the outcome. and it is a choice.

I'm beyond happy for you, you did what so many of us have tried to do. you have so many reasons to be happy, and so many more reasons you havent even realized yet. take care of yourself, and your little one. bye.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 12/24/11 11:54 AM
Aw, Ken, it literally makes me cry to see you go. I could not have gotten through this without you. Without all of you. This is still a journey, but I feel like I'm finally on the other side of the hill.

These past two weeks have been rough for H. I noted in my post on the other board that his parents have been crappy again. Now it's ramped up from crappy to full out batsh!t crazy. It's been hard to watch.

I've never really gone into his family's dysfunctional history full out, and it's really too long to explain, but long story short, for years his parents used H as their personal piggy bank. They basically manipulated him into giving them ridiculous amounts of money, and then after 3 years of it, H put his foot down and cut off contact. That's all you really have to know for this story.

We went to MC and talked about it. The therapist agreed with my diagnosis of a major personality disorder, most likely narcissistic personality disorder. I had a prof in grad school say a NPD patient he had once was by far the scariest person he's ever worked with. I would believe it. I felt like it was good for the T to be extremely straight forward with H about what to expect from his family, which in this case, is nothing. Expect them to be continually disappointing, continually selfish, continually frustrating. I did as much research on the topic as possible and the general consensus seems to be: Run. Run away. As fast and as far as we can.

We went to their Christmas for the first time in 4 years. It seemed pleasant enough on the surface, and then I noticed H and FIL had disappeared. Eventually BIL also went into the room where they had disappeared to. 2 hours later, they all emerge, looking red eyed. During a brief moment during that stint, BIL's wife checks in and assures me everything is fine. I chose to keep my distance. After we got in the car, I asked H how everything was.

H: Fine.
M: Yeah?
H: Yeah. Did you have a good time?
M: Yeah, I suppose. I guess it went pretty well. So um, why are your eyes all red?
:::this is where I think that maybe they've had some emotional break through, thinking I'm going to hear "we really talked about some good stuff" or something to that effect::::
H: I.... um.... (starts to sob)... I've been duped again.
M: What?
H: I'm so stupid! I've been duped again!
M: What?! What are you talking about? Why are you so upset? What happened?!
H: My dad confronted me about stopping payment with them all those years ago, locked me in the room and shoved me against the wall and got in my face.
M: WHAT?!
H: They don't care about me. They just want money.
M: But why was your brother there?
H: He came in trying to poke his nose into it like he always does, and then I found out he told dad everything we talked about this morning.

Oh yes, he and brother had a long heart to heart this morning where the objective was to put it "all in the past" and "move forward". Which apparently he just used the information to go to the parents.

I just watched him fall apart. He said he's seriously considering a restraining order. He said that he brought up the fact that we've done just fine the past 4 years without them, it won't be hard to do it again.

Of course then they got even more angry because they want our D to be in their lives.

Um, if they're going to be like this, I don't want them around my D. I don't give a damn what their relation is to her. If they're going to be dishonest, narcissistic, violent a-holes, she won't miss them. I didn't want them around her to begin with because of this same pattern of behavior. What 60 year old man shoves his own son in an attempt to bully him? An idiot, that's who.

Why, why did H open this can of worms. I mean, in my mind, I know why. He hoped they would get their sh!t together. But I knew/know better. That's why I'm glad the T laid it all out for him. They will most likely never change. They lost a son and a DIL, had a scare with cancer, and watched another neglected son die, and they still are the same.

F them. Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 01/04/12 09:55 PM
Oh his family drama just keeps getting worse. At least I care way less about it now.

Let me be clear: I do not care less about how much this is hurtful to my H. If anything I'm even more enraged and resentful over it (I put the blame of a lot of his craziness over the past year squarely on his f-ed up upbringing) for how it has hurt him. But what they think of me? I couldn't care less. It's refreshing, actually, in that aspect.

But I won't bore you all with the drama.

H and I burned some hotel points that he had to use or lose for New Years, and my parents watched the baby. We had a good time. I think my family is a little more accepting of H back in our lives, not to say any of them really said anything super negative about him ever.

I feel like I really did try to present him as mentally ill during the last year, versus being an arrogant, selfish d-bag. I mean, he was acting that way, but due to his MLC/post-partum depression/whatever you want to call it.

H's favorite present was actually a letter my step brother wrote to him. Brother (who has a heroin addiction... sober for 6 months today though), wrote he and me individual letters telling us how sorry he was for any behaviors he may have done that were hurtful and to tell us how much we mean to him. Apparently in H's letter, brother also told him how glad he is that he's "back to normal" and considers H to be like the brother he never had. H cried and hugged him for a very long time.

H and I still have things to work on. We'll always have things to work on. I'm finding that I'm giving him a heads up more often when I'm already a little keyed up (like yesterday, was the first day back for students. I thought I was going to die by 2 PM). That seems to help him lower the bar a little when he knows I'm already raised. And we made a big R step this week: we opened our first joint checking account and first joint credit card.

This. Is. Huge.

I think he's still a little worried that I don't see the changes. I do. But I also see the potential for back slide, and that scares me. I'm just still cautious. But cautiously optimistic.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 02/15/12 09:54 PM
D is 9 months old today. She took her first steps last night. She walked to me. It was a great Valentine's present.

H is out of town. I feel like I'm handling it well. I did have a moment on my way to work on Monday morning where I was on the cusp of a panic attack, but I managed to reel it in.

So much has changed since the Christmas break. We're no longer on speaking terms with H's family (again). This was his decision. I'm staying far away from it. I could choose to get involved, but honestly, it's too exhausting. Look up "narcissistic personality disorder vampires" and you'll get a sense of what it feels like to be around them. H and I decided to put our house on the market for a variety of reasons (and believe it or not, the housing market is actually doing REALLY well in our neighborhood despite this economy).

I suppose the timing for it could not have been better because H was offered a big promotion last week.

But it's in Mississippi.

I lived in the "piney woods" of East Texas for 1 year and just about lost my mind. Granted it was 10 years ago, I was a freshman in college, and I didn't have a husband and a child. But it was awful. So I'm a little fearful of going to MS.

I would be a SAHM because teachers there make so much less than teachers in my state. This also makes me nervous for a variety of reasons, but the most important are 1. I would lose one of the things really identify me as a person (my job) and 2. I would be completely, 100% financially dependent on H (which given the last year of our lives, makes me scared as hell).

We spoke with my family about it, and they think we should go for it. It would be a career changer for H. And we would be able to come home in about 2 to 3 years, so this wouldn't be permanent. While we're there, I would probably get an additional certification that I can receive online which would increase my earning potential by about 15-20k.

And the trump card for me would be that I get to raise my own child.

But the dependence thing... it really, really scares me.

........

H has texted me this week asking if I'm doing alright with D by myself. I know it comes from a place of genuine concern and wanting to be supportive, but inside I have resentment and think, "of course, fool, I've got this. If I can handle it with a newborn by myself, I certainly can handle it with a higher functioning older child". But I don't snap. I just keep it to myself.

He sent me flowers. Twice. Once last week "just because" and once on Monday for Valentines. It was very sweet and very unexpected. I'll be giving him his Valentine's gift this weekend: a years worth of preplanned, prepaid dates. Each month he will open an envelope, and then we will pick a weekend in that month to go on the date (I can't take credit for this idea; I found it on Pinterest). I'll let you know how he likes it.

We've all had an unseasonably warm winter. It makes it feel very spring-ish here. It makes me panic. It's been almost a year since the ILYBNILWY discussion. The weather is what sets it off for me. I have a huge association with it. And now with him being out of town this week, it makes it even worse.

Looking back, I'm very thankful for this past year. It was terrible in many aspects, I don't wish for anyone to go through it, but it was probably the most incredible learning experience I've ever had. Traumatizing, but valuable.

I'll let you know if we end up moving.
Posted By: angel61 Re: I guess I can be here now - 02/15/12 10:45 PM
You are doing great! WE do learn a lot from this hiccups in life.....
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 02/20/12 10:24 PM
So we have to move. Our house sold in less than 36 hours.

Wow, I was so NOT prepared for that. The option period has started, but it appears unless they find something majorly wrong with our house, we have to be out by March 23rd (and they're paying with CASH, so worrying whether or not the financing will fall through isn't a factor).

H and I were floored. And someone else has said that if for any reason this deal falls through, they want to put a bid down. So we're moving, and doing it fast. We have to find an apt, because regardless of whether or not we move to MS, we are not ready to buy another house yet, in either state. And that's not something we want to jump into lightly, so we have to have somewhere to go in the interim.

I feel like H has been more testy the past few days. I don't know if it's the sale of the house, or what. I know I've been putting the pressure on him to make a decision about this move. I think, again, it comes down to a money thing for him. Which I totally get, I do, but I think he thinks that we have to have a certain amount of money to live, and I don't think he realizes how much we spend unnecessarily. Even on just his income, we would make way more than most families in America live on. If most of America can do it, we can do it.

But then, it scares me again that he will become resentful that he is the sole breadwinner and that I contribute "nothing" (nevermind that I'll be cooking, cleaning, raising our child, and getting additional credentials to make more when we come back home....). Maybe I should bring this up in MC.

I don't know. I feel like we have a lot to work on before we pick up and move across the country. I think he needs to stop coming from such a selfish standpoint before we make the decision for him to take on all financial responsibility. After all, if he asks me to do this, I'm leaving MY career that I've worked VERY hard to obtain.

It's stressful to say the least. I've had migraines three days this week.

At least my child is still easy and wonderful, we're all healthy, and we're all under the same roof.

I just don't know where that roof will be in a little over a month.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 02/20/12 11:05 PM
absolutely bring up the dependence thing in MC and get it out there.

It's a big issue for you (which I totally get and relate to)

and I'd like HIM to see this move (if you go) as a sacrifice by you, not him.

Make sure he hears you.

Good luck==otherwise you are doing great!
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/12/12 12:50 PM
I've lost my mind.

I went to my IC on Saturday like I always do. This week was really stressful at work so it was good to be able to go, but I was so mentally and physically exhausted. So I came home and got on my laptop to check my email. H had been using it to look something up, and left his email open. So I did a search for OW's name.

I was floored. He apparently bought tickets to this year's Cochella festival last year and was selling them back to her. And I found all manner of inappropriate conversations in there. One took place 2 days after my daughter's birth while I was still in the hospital. I forwarded them to my email, at least as many as I could, and then he realized something was wrong.

I just lost it. I told him he had to have slept with her from what I found. He admitted that he kissed her once, but still insisted that he didn't sleep with her. I went ape sh!t.

I'm not proud of it, but I literally beat him for the next 5-10 minutes. He has scratches and bruises all over his body. He couldn't stop me because I was so enraged. I was also so exhausted I didn't do any major damage, and I had to stop a few times because I thought I was going to throw up. I thought I had given him a black eye, but the marks on his face cleared up quickly.

Luckily D was asleep at the time and had no idea what happened. She started to cry, so I told him to go deal with her. I told him to leave me alone and take care of her because I was not in a sound state of mind to do so. I then grabbed my keys and said, "don't call me" and left. I went to the bar I would always go to when I was pregnant and trying to be out of the house, except this time I got completely wasted. In the middle of the day. I didn't come home for several hours.

I FB'd her. I said, "I need to know if you slept with my husband. I already know that you kissed and had extremely inappropriate conversations with him to say the least. Please tell me".

When I came back home, I was really drunk. While I was out, H completely deleted all emails and conversations with her in both our emails and rebooted his phone. I was furious. When I came home, she called him. He didn't pick up. I FB'd her again and said, "I know you've called him. You need to talk to me. Be a real woman".

Of course, I haven't heard from her.

I want to make her life hell. I wish upon her stillbirths, miscarriages and severely disabled children who will drain her emotionally, physically and financially. I want her spouse to cheat on her while she's pregnant, and I want to beat her a$$.

I have virtually no debt on my CC and I now knew her address thanks to those emails. I thought of hoping on the first plane to California and kicking her a$$. I want to murder her.

I'm furious. I feel like I've been beaten with a lead pipe. I'm exhausted, but I can't sleep. All I can think about when I look at H is what he said to her in those emails.

I just want to be in a coma for the foreseeable future. I don't even want to hold my child.

I don't know what to do.
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/13/12 09:21 PM
breathe.

start there.

are these new emails? or ones he's just kept for some stupid reason? ( and any reason is stupid. )


the shock of finding them, of him admitting he kissed her is difficult and painful. but you're going to have to step back a little.

you need to separate this into the appropriate categories to apply the appropriate weight to it.



1. if they're old emails, its him being extremely stupid, and callous. he kept them for sentimental reasons and completely inappropiate.

BUT, thats the extent of it. stupidity. but not new. its not a new affair, nothing new has happened.


2. if the selling the tickets is new, then thats also stupid, he could have sold them to anyone.

BUT, its just a bad choice of who to sell them to. bad judgement but not cheating. its not an affair.


3. IF they're new since you've returned, then that's a different story. that's what you need to decide on.


her calling is bad, but doesn't prove he's having an affair.

take some time to get your head straightened back out before any more decisions or FB posts.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/13/12 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay


I FB'd her. I said, "I need to know if you slept with my husband. I already know that you kissed and had extremely inappropriate conversations with him to say the least. Please tell me".


D.I.M.,

Please don't make decisions (or take actions) like this when you're so highly emotional, and CERTAINLY not when you're drunk. We can help you with this stuff, here, but only if you come and post here first.

For the record, the correct way to flush out an affair is to go to your SPOUSE (not the OP), and you say "I know ALL ABOUT you and ________ , and it needs to stop -- now. This is incredibly direspectful to me, to our marriage and to our kid(s)." (or something similar). By saying "I know all about it," you use the power of them NOT knowing what YOU know, and so therefore, they have to ASSUME YOU KNOW EVERYTHING.

When you say "I know you kissed, but did you do anything else," then you've just let the cheating couple know the extent of your evidence. Not smart.

I know you're reeling, but please don't do anything just right now.


Starsky
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/14/12 05:40 AM
No, not new emails, thankfully. Well, the Cochella thing is new, but the purchase of them are not new. He purchased them last June for this year's festival (I guess you have to buy them that far in advance?? I saw the email so I know it's legit). He says several coworkers from that site were refreshing at the same time to obtain tickets and he was one of the lucky ones. Agreed that he was stupid to sell them to her, but that all seems to be square.

I'm not looking into the keeping of the emails so much as the lying. He had me fairly convinced that there was no real EA. That it was just a close friendship that he did not realize could easily be misconstrued as crossing the line. That's the primary reason I'm ticked. He lied and I bought it. Also, there was sh!t from her up to October 2nd. Although I will say this, there wasn't .... inappropriate things per se in the emails in the Fall, but there were things from her that said, "PICK UP THE PHONE!! You are so selfish. I hate you. I'm not dealing with you unless it's for work". Clearly SHE felt something was still going on, even though he is still adamant that there was nothing of the sort going on. Said that he stopped inappropriate conversations in the spring, but still talked to her casually in the summer and she couldn't take a hint.

Pisses me off he never straight up said, "I love my wife, screw off".

H texted her and asked if she got the FB messages. She said she didn't know what he was talking about, and so I emailed her (which he was fine with. He was fine with the FB too). She did email me back. This is what I got:

"I have not received any Facebook messages from you and I just recently looked again and do not see any messages. To be honest with you, I have not slept with your H, ever. And I do not want to. The things you wrote about happened a year ago and I am done with it. I do not want any thing from your H. If I talk it is only for work related reasons"

Well, I have to hand it to her for at least responding. But is it just me, or is this slightly dismissive? "The things you wrote about happened a year ago and I am done with it". Is the subtext here "yeah that's in the past, so build a bridge..."

I'm sorry. This is just a f-ing blip on her radar of life. But this event will have consequences on my family for years to come. I tallied it up. I spent over $5000 on sh!t directly related to all this crap last year. 5k. And who knows I will continue to literally and figuratively pay for this episode in the future.

I've thought about responding with this:

"Thank you, first and foremost for responding to me. I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to communicate with me; however, I am flabbergasted and disgusted that any woman would conduct such inexcusable behavior with a married man, especially one whose wife is expecting. It's not like you didn't know of my existence. How nice for you that this "happened a year ago and you are done with it". This will be with my family and me for the rest of our days. I have already spent over $5000 on expenses directly related to this mess you helped create, and I will continue to "pay" for this literally and figuratively for years to come. How dare you have such explicit conversations with my husband while I am next to him laying in the hospital bed recovering from giving birth. It seems apparent that you have no moral compass or ethics, so I will end my tirade here as I am sure lessons on fidelity will be wasted on a person like yourself who clearly lacks these attributes. You will never know the hell that you put me through or the things you have stolen from me. And if by chance your future spouse completely loses his mind, some tramp at work encourages him to get a divorce, he has an emotional affair with her and essentially abandons you while you're pregnant; good. You deserve it."

Let me add on some key information: H is extremely remorseful about what happened. He is fine with me contacting her as much as necessary (as long as it's not on company email). He has been a little snippy the past few days when I start to ask more questions. But then I remind him that had he not done this bullsh!t in the first place and then been honest on the MULTIPLE occasions I gave him to explain then we wouldn't be in this mess, then he straightens up. So, knowing he's supportive, what do you think?
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/14/12 02:43 PM
dont send it. write it for yourself, but never send it. she's not worth it. there's nothing wrong with it, but its not something you should send.

i can understand that you feel as if she were condescending, but as an outsider, i didnt read it that way. she was very matter of fact, almost unemotional. she's not the issue here.

you sound much better today. again, give it a couple more days, and keep breathing.

it is old stuff. remember that.

but the lying is hurtful, and needs to be addressed.

i'm speculating when this first started, he was lying as self-preservation, he made a mistake and knew it. then he had to keep lying as to not damage what little trust you had for him, since you were out the door. and now that he's caught, again, he may come clean on everything. thats something for MC to discuss.

in my estimation, he has lots of maturing to do. i'd say growing up, he was conditioned to get out of situations in the easiest, quickest way possible hoping it would never backfire.

Theres a balance you need to find, and it will be difficult. He needs to come clean, even if you already know everything. and you need to let him come clean. if the consequences are too harsh, (although depending on the facts it may be fully justified) he may just continue to lie. but he has to understand that lying also not acceptable.

does that make sense?
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/14/12 02:49 PM
also, when letting him come clean, you need to remember what was past is past. (or is it whats past is passed ?)

if its that these are old lies, and you're just finding out about them now, remember they're old lies.

if they're new lies to cover up new actions, then that carries a different weight.

if he's not telling new lies, then he has learned from the past, and thats a good thing.
Posted By: Harrier Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/14/12 06:36 PM
A few questions.

Are you seeing anyone for yourself to deal with his A last year? I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid but the physical abuse is startling. Whether or not he deserves it, it is not an appropriate response. You could have put something at risk if he took it differently. (sorry to sound lecturing because I know this is tough).

Getting drunk...same thing, IMO. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I'd consider it.

There is a lot of anger -that's justified, but in the end the anger will not serve your M or your D any good. Good luck.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/21/12 01:54 AM
Yes, I've been seeing a T weekly since October. And yes, I'm aware of how inappropriate both the violence and the drinking was. My T didn't.... condone it... however she also didn't express a whole lot of concern over it. I'm not that concerned over it either. But that was the first time ever I've drank and drank and drank for the sole purpose of not feeling anything anymore. Also the first time I've ever physically attacked someone.

The last 10 days have been terrible. I found out on Monday I had a nasty case of the flu (I guess good for H... I knew I felt weak when I was attacking him, but I chalked it up to mental anguish). Despite the fact that I was really ill, I still had to pack up my house. And take care of my 10 month old. So that was fun, packing, child care, and the flu.

I was still so exhausted yesterday that I was only able to work half a day yesterday. D stays with my grandparents during the day, and they continued to take care of her while I slept in another room. I was passed out for almost 6 hours.

H left for Cali on Sunday afternoon and will be back tomorrow morning. My phone has been having connectivity issues, so I called our carrier to figure out what's going on. We tried some troubleshooting that didn't require account access (it's in H's name), but we got nowhere. They told me they couldn't do anything else about it without having account access.

Given all the BS H has put me through, especially lately, I assumed that he would give me the pin code to the account.

H wouldn't.

I was furious. He tried everything to resolve the issue for me without giving me access to the account.

Extremely long story short, he tried to throw out every crap excuse out there to not give me the account, to try to make me look bad, to try to get out of the argument and to... in essence, threaten me (so what are you going to do if I don't give it to you?). I called his crap on every excuse and told him it was all ridiculous.

I still never got the code. I got a lot of crap apologies. He swears that he'll open the account for me when he comes home tomorrow and we can go over the call records together.

I want him to give up control. I'm so tired of it. I'm tired of bending over backwards and him getting all of the say so.

He is such an exhausting man.
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/21/12 11:30 AM
just keep working through this, dont give in to frustration. you're being over stressed with the move and its being displayed in your actions, thoughts, and health.

and everything is exhausting. it will always be exhausting, regardless of who its with. thats life. get used to it.

of course that means you have to work to keep the relationship worth being exhausted over.

he does not have to give you the control, dont assume its a bad thing. it may simply mean that he also needs to control something, even something as mundane as the phone.

everyone needs to feel in control of something, its a way to feel worth. and during the move, he may need to feel power over something.

you have to find a healthy balance between dealing with real issues and what issues can wait. sunday to thursday is not that long. OR, were you just trying to find/make a reason to get the pin? and yes, i've done that too.

just keep moving forward. dont be overwhelmed with the small stuff, but at the same time, protect yourself.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 03/24/12 10:03 PM
I don't know if I should jump in here, since I've been out of the loop for a long time, and am probably not one to talk. But I've come a long way in the months I haven't been on this board. It'll be hard for most people to believe.

But you can take any of this with a grain of salt, DIM, it's just that I've followed your sitch from day 1 and I identify a lot with it - even if it isn't my story exactly.

My ex and I are fully separated now and planning to stay separated. I know that's not the goal of these boards, but sometimes it is for the best. I may not have seen that at the time, but I see it now. Does it mean I don't wish my family were in tact? No, but under the circumstances, I do not believe that was in our best interest or my daughter's best interest.

We have here what we'll call a lesson. And until you fully get whatever the universe is presenting to you, it's going to keep happening. So what are you going to do?

See because while I don't condone staying in a relationship where there is lack of honesty, integrity, respect, and trust, I do think the focus needs to remain on you and not your H or even OW.

So learn what you have to here, without making major decisions.

You went into fight or flight mode when you found out and you numbed and lashed out. That's not okay. If it's okay with you, I'm not sure why. And to say your H has been cranky or whatever for a few days, wouldn't you be too if someone had beat you up?

Watch how YOU behave. Right now you are very focused on his bad behavior.

Here's a few things that might help. We make up thoughts about our circumstances. Start observing what you make up about all this.

Why is there rage? What are you enraged about?

For instance,

Circumstance: I have evidence that my husband had an EA.
Thought: He ruined our relationship. OR he ruined my life. OR (I'm not good enough.) OR - whatever you MAKE THAT MEAN.
Feeling: small, lacking, deprived, helpless, out of control, scared (what feelings came up)
Actions: You beat him up, threatened another woman, woke up your daughter, drank, are exhausted, etc.
Results: No one is happy or at peace.

Now, if you want different results, you're going to have to tell a different story about that same circumstance.

NOTE: you said you want your husband to give up control. That's a big red flag to me; whenever we want someone we know to do something (for our benefit), we know we're in our projection mode.

Who do you really want to give up control?
What would be less exhausting right now?
Who has control of ... giving up control?

Let's go back to that sequence.

C: I have evidence my husband had an EA.
Thought: I am okay. I will take care of whatever I need to. The outcome will be all right and I'll figure it out.
Feeling: In control. In your power. In your adult self (rather than the traumatized child self who goes out and drinks or punches people).
Actions: You make choices. You are calm and act from calm places. You take action from places where you are in your power.
Results: You have an outcome that makes you feel comfortable/safe/happy.

What do you need right now?
What do you need to feel?
What do you need to believe?

Plug some of this into your own sequences and try it ... see if you can get the results you want by telling a different story.

Don't give away your power to OW. She did NOT steal anything from you. She just did what she did. That's her business. Your business is you.

So what are YOU going to do now?
What are YOU able to control (I'll give you a hint - ... you!)
What do you want to see happen?
What do you need?

Stop action. Stop reaction. Take some time. Take a Saturday to be alone or a nap or a rest or a drive. And go within YOU.

Forget your H and his lousy behavior. It's his problem. Doesn't make you an ass. Only YOUR lousy behavior makes YOU an ass.

Please be who you are - love, compassion, forgiveness, whatever that may be. But do it from a place of empowerment.

And try doing some byron katie "The Work" or Judge Your Neighbor worksheets on those thoughts you are having. I wish I could coach you on this but I know there are coaches on here.

The thoughts: She stole something from me.
He should give up control.
He lied to me.

All have potential turnarounds when you do the work.

You may have lied to yourself when you CHOSE not to see what you already knew was before you a while back.

DIM. I wish you all the love in the world right now. From the bottom of my heart.

And the thing is.

I know you're going to be okay.
But that's your business. smile
Posted By: figgeroni Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/04/12 01:24 AM
May...
I used to read your posts in Newcomers and saw that you had moved here

I have to say....

the anger toward the OW is misguided

she owed nothing to you
of course she would be dismissive

I would too if some crazy woman emailed me full of accusations

(which is what I am sure you sounded like...an insecure, crazy woman)

the physical violence is NEVER Ok...no matter how you try to justify it

and

as the mom to a beautiful girl with special needs
and
having survived several miscarriages, I am both sickened and appalled by your wishes on her

how dare you assume that having a special needs child is somehow a burden

you need to get a grip
watch you anger
and look at yourself in the mirror
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/04/12 03:26 AM
Figgeroni,

I'll admit, it was advice like yours that baffled me when I was on these boards, posting and in crises. I think there's a degree of compassion that everyone her deserves.

Anger is useful in many situations. Obviously, what we do with it is important, but it is a teacher. May, what is it teaching you? What is it here to tell you? There's a book called the Language of Emotions that you may want to get to look at it about this important emotion.

May is clearly acting out of a place of fear and lack. What is the fear? What do you imagine is being taken away or that has been taken or that you don't have?

There's a sense you've given your power away here - to this woman, to your husband. That can leave you feeling helpless, angry, out of control, desperate. It would leave anyone feeling that way. So have some compassion for yourself, and see if you can slow down in all this and find some answers, within ... you do have the power.

Why aren't you holding on to it?
Posted By: figgeroni Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/04/12 03:06 PM
being in crisis does not diminish the completly misguided and inappropriateness of the post

we have all been in crisis

pointing out the misguidedness is important because we simply can not use our situations for carte blanche behavior

words are powerful tools and every word in every situation carries weight

when you dismiss that because of pain and hurting, you also dismiss what you say when you aren't in pain and hurting

May is an intelligent person and you are correct, she seems to be giving an undo amount of power away

reality checks are extremely important
always
but especially in crisis situations

sending an email to the suspected OW makes you look like a crazy person...
because, in that moment, you are...

you need to stop and recognize that before you make your situation worse...before you BECOME the crazy person you are acting like

Compassion I have in loads, understanding is there too

and

but again

recognition is vital to growth and moving forward

but slamming special needs children and wishing miscarriages and stillbirths is NOT an acceptable way to deal with anything EVER

neither is placing blame for your actions (physical violence is never OK and if it would have been a man pounding on a woman that way, there are very few people here who would have said...oh it's OK and it's understandable...NOR SHOULD THERE BE...IT"S WRONG AND AGAINST THE LAW)
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 03:43 AM
First off, I didn't slam children with special needs. I said, "I wish upon her stillbirths, miscarriages and severely disabled children who will drain her emotionally, physically and financially."

All children (any form of dependent, really) are a drain in some manner. Those with severe disabilites are draining in one form or another. That does not mean they do not have worth or are unwanted. I love my students, I love their families. But it drives me crazy when a parent says (and granted, this statement is rare, but it's happened), "oh, I never need a break". Bullsh!t. We all need a break from time to time. To say otherwise is pure denial. My families are exhausted in more ways than one. I don't infer that, they straight up tell me. CNN just had an article the other day about how expensive the cost of autism treatment is. I have parents who beg to know how they can qualify for respite services. I know families who can't ever sleep because their child's disability prevents them from getting a good nights sleep, and then they in turn prevent everyone from getting a good night's sleep. It's a drain.

Secondly, I know stillbirths and miscarriages are painful. I just had a dear friend lose her baby at 24 weeks. She went through 20 hours of labor to deliver a dead baby who had a name, a nursery, and clothing. She missed a month of work. And immediately before she lost this pregnancy, she had a miscarriage. Both my mother and my God-mother lost infants in their first few weeks of life. I have been fortunate not to have personally experienced these things, but I have borne witness to the pain it causes. While I apologize if it was offensive (I honestly did not want to hurt anyone's feelings over that statement), I still stand by what I said. I wish her beyond imaginable pain, especially pain related to child birth. I do not apologize for wishing this hell upon her. Not. One. Bit.

If that makes you angry, I'm sorry, but don't read my posts.

Thirdly, I fully acknowledge the physical attack was inappropriate. And yet.... I don't care. At this point in time, I'd do it again. Honestly, I'm amazed I haven't attacked him again. That's how angry I am. I feel very unapologetic about it. I doubt I will ever apologize to him about it. I mean, if I truly eventually feel bad for it, I will. I hate empty apologies. I find them more insulting than if you just say nothing.

I don't know if I've ever posted this... it's been too long and there have been too many posts.... but part of the reason I am SO angry about this is the day my first child was born was one of my true "dreams" growing up.

Some women have a dream wedding they've had visions of since they were little girls. I didn't know anything about my wedding, but I knew what the birth of my child would be like.

We would hold hands, we would cry, we would say "look what we made" and tell each other "I love you" and tell the same to our child. It was supposed to be the happiest day of my life.

Instead I just stared at H, stared at my newborn, and tried to be as stoic as possible.

Honestly, I don't remember much from that day. And that alone is crushing.

I still hate her. Vehemently. This is not to say that H is free from blame. But I still say that this would not have happened if she weren't in the picture. I know that's a debatable topic.

Would he have abandoned me? Probably. But would there be an OW? I think I give her that credit. From what little I read, she was rather pushy.

Ugh.

I don't know what to do about H in reference to all of this. I don't want a D. But I don't know how to.... emphasize the severity of this. The on going lying.

That's probably another thing I'm so enraged about.

I just bought it. Hook, line and sinker.

And of course, he's out of town again this week. At least we're out of the house, into the apartment (although still living out of boxes) and we're all well now.

I'm taking a girls weekend. Not this weekend, but next. I've stored up enough milk (yeah, D is still nursing believe it or not) to where she should be good and I'll just bring my pump. Hopefully that will rejuvenate me a bit and get me to calm down.

I would say more often than not, I'm not angry about this. But when it creeps up, it's still very fiery.

And then I just want to beat him all over again.
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 04:49 PM
i think the point is you should be better than that.

beating the crap out of your spouse may feel good and you found a way to justify it.

writing letters to someone wishing dead babies upon them feels good.

in the exact same way that having an affair feels good and can be easily justified.

its all the same.

no one ever said you're not entitled to feel anger. my x was sleeping with her boss while we were married, i'd stay home with the baby while she lied about who she was with until 4am, claiming i made her do it and it was all my fault, telling people i was abusive, x moves my daughter into his house, they're now engaged and x tells my daughter to call that same a-hole her step-father, and i have to bite my tongue every time i listen to my daughter talk about him.

so trust me, everyone here understands anger.

and none of this is how anyone dreamed it would be.

the issue now isnt her, or his lying. not anymore. the issue here is that you need to get over your anger. even if he would do everything you wanted, your anger would screw it all up. you've spent the last post justifying your childish, over the top email, when you should have simply admitted it was wrong and written in anger.

i think you're losing control, you're letting this consume you and turn you into someone you shouldn't be. you're in self-destruct mode and it'll end up being you killing the marriage. maybe that's what you want at this point, and that's your decision, but if it is, then man-up and take responsibility for it.

reality never lives up to childhood dreams. never. get used to that, or you'll have a life of disappointments.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 05:03 PM
Anger is repackaged fear, DIM...

What are you afraid of...?

Be angry, just do so in healthy, constructive ways...

But please dig and understand what fear is driving your current anger...?

Internalize your thoughts... so not what it is about others... but what is it about you... that is leading you down that path...?
Posted By: figgeroni Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 06:10 PM
exactly Ken
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 07:30 PM
One point I want to make DIM - we all have dashed hopes when it comes to our marriages, births, motherhood, etc. I can show you an article I wrote on this, but I don't think I can posts links here.

Letting go and accepting what is ... is the only way to decrease the suffering.

What can you be grateful for? A healthy baby? A healthy pregnancy? A daughter who is pure love?

Even under the best circumstances, many women don't get the Hollywood version of what we all imagined as little girls that certain times in our lives would look like.

Those are the parts of ourselves we need to grow up and mature into adults who accept that things rarely turn out and look like what we imagine, and that it's still okay.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 07:41 PM
Hey LG/ESN! Hope you are doing well! smile
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 08:06 PM
KD, you blew my cover! smile

Nah, it's okay. I'm just not the old LG. I've changed so much and have read a lot about ACT - the coaching program has changed my life for the better, as has byron katie - and even the law of attraction (in understanding resistance). I'm in a deep process right now, and it's exhausting, challenging, but wonderful. My destroyed relationship has been an utter gift in the end. And I'm in an ongoing process of understanding my ex (still) so that we can be good coparents to our daughter - it helps when he's not in my face all the time, and I'm not having triggers, trauma, reactions, etc.

I hope you're doing well!

(Sorry to hijack!)
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 09:11 PM
lol... yeah, sorry for hijack DIM... smile

Good that LG is now ESN... Keep doing the good work! And yeah, I'm doing well.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/05/12 09:41 PM
Cool!

I hope DIM finds herself on the same path soon. The anger and resistance is exhausting. The trauma is there. The holding on to what could have been; I identify so much with it and feel so much compassion. But when you see it as a gift to change to something so much more of who you are, and you can access those new places, it is a HUGE blessing - the key is that sometimes some of us need to exhaust ourselves and hit rock bottom before we can start getting it (ahem, not mentioning any names! :)) (and I do mean me)
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 04:02 AM
You're right, Ken. I am losing control. I'm not about to deny that. I literally feel like I'm on the brink of a major meltdown. Sometimes I feel like I'm in an alternate reality. This week while H has been gone the laundry has piled up, I've done no dishes, but I haven't really needed to do dishes because all I've consumed is Diet Coke, tortillas and Reese's Pieces. I think I washed my hair once. I keep my D safe, but I've rarely interacted with her. Even my staff have commented on how eerily quiet I've been this week.

So, yes, I'm aware of the true issue at hand.

I don't know what I want. I want to feel safe. I want to not question EVERY SINGLE BEHAVIOR. I've even gone so far as to think that the only reason H wanted to move was to get the house out of our names into an apartment which is easier to dump me from.

He did almost all the laundry for me before he left (put it away too, which is really rare). While I thanked him for it, all I could think was "he just did so much laundry so I won't notice he's packing more than usual. He probably will pack not only work clothes, but a bunch of going out attire as well... or enough to last him longer than his week that he told me and something will 'come up' requiring him to stay longer".

I am paranoid as f*ck.

I want to drink and smoke cigarettes (don't ask me why... I've never smoked ANYTHING in my life!). I want to drop off the baby with my parents and drive to my Godparents house in Colorado and be isolated for a month in the woods.

I want OW to drive off a f*cking cliff. She might lose her job in the next two weeks (there have been major layoffs at H's job), but at this point in time, it's still not enough.

I want my sanity back. I want my sleep back. I want my peace of mind back. I want my memory back.

I don't want to deal with this bullsh!t anymore.

I know exactly where this fear comes from. My father had an affair. My husband comes from a family of psychopathic liars. I am terrified that I will never know the truth, I will always be f*cked over, I will always have to watch my back, and I will never be safe.

Mix in the very real fact that H has a top secret job and I literally cannot know a lot of what happens, and I'm kind of screwed. Unless I just put on a happy face, "let go and let God" or whatever you want to call it, and dial up my antidepressants.

I knew my anger would be the thing that would be hard to deal with. Not because I experience residual anger over lots of things, but because my best friend (who was in a relationship for a long time with a chronic cheater) warned me. She said, "you think that if they just stop the cheating then you can forgive and be happy again. But it's the anger that will get you. You will be so angry."

And that's why I got my own place, despite the fact that he tried to stop me (notice he didn't ASK me to come home, just asked me NOT to get the apt). I knew I was too angry. I thought it was over.

And then I found those f*cking emails/chats. I feel like I'm back at square one. At least this time he wants to stay married, but I feel like I could kill him. The first time this happened, I wanted to kill only myself.

I have a very heavy month of work ahead, as well as some heavy editing to my thesis. I've thought of putting D to bed like I do every night, and then excusing myself to the library down the street until it closes. It will trap him at the apartment and yet I can be away from him. I don't trust myself to be in the same room with him and not lash out.

And yes, I specifically used the word trap. I feel like I have to. That's where I'm at.

I'm at a loss of what to do.

I know at this time I sound crazy, unappreciative, childish, and illogical. But I genuinely thank you all for sticking by my side. You guys, and 4 other people, are the only ones I've told about this recent episode. And I haven't told those other people how much I'm struggling with it (aside from my IC). You are all I've got. Thank you for trying to take care of me. Because at this point, I feel very incapable of taking care of me, much less my M.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 04:16 AM
Oh, and by the way...

I never sent that tirade of an email.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 04:41 AM
What is your IC saying about what's going on with you, right now?

Do you have an emergency number for the IC?

I'm not overly worried about you atm, DIM... but you do appear on the edge and while you are venting here, which is well and good... you sound like you are stuffing it down IRL...

But it does worry me about your D... I'm sure you are taking care of her basic needs, but what is your plan B in case you really do need to check out for a while with some down time for you?

You're going on that trip, right? Or "outing" as you called it... That should help.

You talked about your meds... have you gone through a review on them?
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 04:57 AM
I'm actually seeing my IC tomorrow. And you're right, KD, I am stuffing it. I don't know who to turn to. I feel like I can't tell my family anymore. They haven't been outwardly angry with H, but there are comments now and again that make me think otherwise (sister said once, "sometimes H acts like we're all just going to forget about what happened..." and my dad said today, "well, I'm avoiding my taxes... I guess technically I could claim you as a dependent because you lived half the year with me..."). I don't think I could handle them having to handle him. My best friend (the one who dated the chronic cheater) has said, "I don't even know how you're still in this... and that's coming from ME". Everyone seems to think I'm a fool for being here. I'm even questioning....

I think my plan B is to give her to my grandparents if I needed to check out for a while. They care for her during the day while I work. They have everything she could possibly need at their house, including breastmilk. If push came to shove, I could ask them and I know they would happily oblige.

Speaking of D and my girls trip, H isn't even watching her that weekend. My family is. I think that was his way of trying to not let me go by saying, "well, I'm only ok with the thought of you going if you get someone to watch the baby. That was supposed to be my guys day" (which it was. He had this guys thing thought out for a while now... I just happened to find the cheapest flight to my best friend on the same weekend). I don't know if he thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but I did. And I'm having the dog boarded. So he is responsibility free that weekend. And he hasn't given me any sh!t over it yet.

I'm hoping my weekend away will be help. I need something. I have seriously considered calling my doc to up my meds. I was hoping that if I gave this a while to blow over I would restabilize. But this has been, what, 3 weeks? And if anything, I'm more insane. So maybe I need to just bite the bullet and do it. And less than a week before this new incident, I was thinking about how best to come off the meds, most likely in the summer.

Guess that's out of the question now.

But yes, I'm pretty sure one more majorly stressful thing and I'm over the edge. I really can't take anymore.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 06:25 AM
You're grandma is still lactating... wow... whistle

lol... grin

Just hoping that brought a slight smile to your face. I think you need it.

DIM, you are one of many on this board who are re-thinking their sanity and desire to be or stand for their M right now...

It is OK to question what you want. It is even OK to rationalize wanting out and even leaving the M on purpose.

But just make it because you choose to. Not because of blame of your H. Not because of blame of OW. Not because your friends or family may not forgive your H.

That's the tough decision, but it's the responsible way.

Let me just say, forget about trying to pin him in the "bad guy" group because you think he was trying to control you.

Also, it doesn't matter if he was or was not OK with you going. It would have been up to you to find appropriate care for D0.9 and you did so. Even if you put the offer to him if he could and wanted... so again... it really is neither here nor there whether we was or was not "ok with that thought...

Let me be clear about that. I'm not pointing at him when I said the above... That was very much directed at you. That you need to not worry about whether he was or was not OK with that thought and ALSO VERY IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE SO, that you not judge him because he was simply stating his mind... because it was not relevant... being angry with him for verbalizing a thought is up to you... and it probably cost you more to be angry then him to off handedly state his thought...

I hope that makes sense...

You are owning a lot of responsibility and issues that are not yours to own...

Let go of what your friends and family might or might not think...

Let go of whether or not your H is being a dink...

Let go of that which you cannot control...

Stop owning that crap...

Drop the rope...

Get back to loving you and loving D0.9

Life will get better, again...

And whatever the future may hold... deal with it as it comes... one little bite at a time...
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 01:41 PM
dear May

Wow, I literally spent 90 minutes posting a lengthy BRILLIANT reply to you but it zapped out b/c I didn't notice my computer was unplugged. Damn...okay, I'm back! Suffice to say it was super smart and life changing and we can only pray this will be half as amazing...

thanks to Kaffe Diem, I got your "SOS". I posted on the other thread you put up and hope you'll check it out b/c the recommendations I made there are so important.

Now I'll quote from this post b/c it's the one you linked me to.


Originally Posted By: dueinMay
You're right, Ken. I am losing control. I'm not about to deny that. I literally feel like I'm on the brink of a major meltdown. Sometimes I feel like I'm in an alternate reality. This week while H has been gone the laundry has piled up, I've done no dishes, but I haven't really needed to do dishes because all I've consumed is Diet Coke, tortillas and Reese's Pieces. I think I washed my hair once. I keep my D safe, but I've rarely interacted with her. Even my staff have commented on how eerily quiet I've been this week.

So, yes, I'm aware of the true issue at hand.


By that^^^ comment I assume you mean you realize you are depressed, and you are going to get help for it, right?

it's not like you don't have the tools in your head. But sometimes the thinkers among us forget the simple things.

Simple things such as The healing power of warm water (a hot bath) the soothing clarity a good night's sleep can bring, the energy of eating right, the way we feel when we think we look good, and just taking care of yourself--

ALL helps you see things more clearly with more hope and you feel better and you ARE better, and that includes being a good, fully present, mom...

It's also like on the airplane--get the oxygen mask on YOU FIRST or no one gets any b/c you'll be passed out. It's not selfish.

Taking care of you IS taking care of your d.

I don't know what I want. I want to feel safe. I want to not question EVERY SINGLE BEHAVIOR.

2 comments and 1 question here...

1) re feeling safe... Feeling safe is something you must learn to give yourself.

My h helps me feel safe when he's holding me in his arms. Those moments are to be treasured and savored. But he might be cheating. I don't think he is but hey, it's ALWAYS possible isn't it?

So, should I feel "unsafe"? Can we ever feel safe, IF it's up to someone else to provide that feeling?


My h is also in the Army Reserves. To our shock, his unit is getting deployed to the Middle East this summer. (Didn't see that coming!)

He'll be gone an indeterminate amount of time and will have his pay cut in half...NICE...think I feel safe now, financially?

(He makes much more in private practice as an MD than as an Army doc) So if I cannot make up all that lost income we may lose our home.

So do I feel "safe"? No. Mad? Yes...Safe and secure? NOT Really but I'm getting there b/c I trust that I'm a strong capable woman and the universe is mostly a good place. What you put out, you get back, usually...


..but I will feel safe ENOUGH! I tell myself that if the only thing this family loses when their dad/h goes off to an armed conflict, is our home, then we are better off than the wounded warriors he cares for,

and thousands of other American families (and coalition ones too), who got no one returning, or had a burned, disfigured, maimed, in chronic pain, husband/son/mother/sister/daughter...

it could be a lot worse. But sure, my job hunting is more active as I need higher pay.

but May, Am i not allowed to feel safe until he returns to me? If something happens to him, is my sense of security forever stolen?

Must I meet another man and only THEN be allowed to feel safe? But thennew man could cheat or die too...

Truly May, safety comes from within us. B/C if it's up to someone else, which it isn't, we''ll never really feel it for long.


They can die on us, they can leave us, they can change. The only people allowed to expect others to make them feel safe, are our children.

2) So you want to stop questioning every single behavior (of his?)? Okay -then discipline yourself and stop it. It's not easy but it's not complicated.

If something is overtly weird and inappropriate or way beyond the pale, YOU WILL KNOW...it will reveal itself at some point.

If something is from the past - it passed....like Ken said.

(Ken, I wrestled with that phrase for a bit...I must be right, it's almost 5 am cool )

I have to ask you something May. I will ask it again, probably. Here it goes...

is there something "new" in your anger that is NOT really new?

Is it that you sense you are not supposed to feel angry anymore (yet you do)

so you are looking for "new" actions or words or lies all of which seem to have taken place a year or more ago

(except the stupid tickets, but he admits it was idiotic and NOT something to throw the towel in for, which you know)

so, are you mad about "new stuff" that isn't new, so that you can justify the reality that you are still angry over past UNRESOLVED matters?



I've even gone so far as to think that the only reason H wanted to move was to get the house out of our names into an apartment which is easier to dump me from.

Um, What? You do want me to tell you when you've gone too far, right? Okay, you went too far. THIS^^^ goes too far, and is illogical and irrational.

First, Other than the paperwork of selling a home, there's just as much work moving from an apartment as there is from a house. (Maybe more labor if there are steps). It's also b ADDING a move

so if the "Secret plan" your h had was to make it easier to "dump" you,

why not sell and then split? Why ADD a move into the process at all?

Also don't revise the history about the sale to rationalize the irrational, b/c then you are gaslighting yourself!

You were "both shocked at how fast it sold. Remember that?? Was he faking his surprise? Let's look at that "Secret plan" you so fear.

If the plan was to sell and leave you, I guess he should have raised the price then, right? Make more money from the house.

Come on May, this is goofy, & you have to toss out that fear to the curb. I'm moving on now... cool
w


He did almost all the laundry for me before he left (put it away too, which is really rare). While I thanked him for it, all I could think was "he just did so much laundry so I won't notice he's packing more than usual. He probably will pack not only work clothes, but a bunch of going out attire as well... or enough to last him longer than his week that he told me and something will 'come up' requiring him to stay longer".

did ANY or even part of this^^^ turn out to be true?

If not, use it as a learning tool so you stop your own gaslighting of YOU.



I am paranoid as f*ck.

Ah! An excellent^^^^ insightful diagnosis...no disagreement here. But I happen to believe the "patient in point" in so brave and reslient that she is educable and will be "cured"...or at least put in remission for as long as happiness is a goal of hers, which it is.


I want to drink and smoke cigarettes (don't ask me why... I've never smoked ANYTHING in my life!). I want to drop off the baby with my parents and drive to my Godparentets house in Colorado and be isolated for a month in the woods.

Wow, since you never smoked "ANYTHING" (where did you go to college? Geez, maybe I should send my younest there) then maybe you simply want to do the things you imagine your h does? They represent in some form, the (rebellious/selfish) freedom he APPEARS to have in your eyes.

Did your dad do any of those things? What do you think iresponsible "FREEDOM" looks like? Where do you think you got the images?



I want OW to drive off a f*cking cliff. She might lose her job in the next two weeks (there have been major layoffs at H's job), but at this point in time, it's still not enough.

I want my sanity back. I want my sleep back. I want my peace of mind back. I want my memory back.

I don't want to deal with this bullsh!t anymore.


3 things...

1) THEN TAKE BACK YOUR SANITY, GET YOUR SLEEP, YOUR PEACE OF MIND & MEMORY, for they are NOT IN SOMEONE ELSE'S HANDS...


2) the OW is not THE issue.

BTW, If she were to drive off a cliff, do you believe all else would be fine in the m? You know it would not. So she's not the issue. And btw,

3) she may be leaving the job soon, so then she's a moot point.

Don't borrow trouble from a source that may soon be gone.



I know exactly where this fear comes from. My father had an affair. My husband comes from a family of psychopathic liars. I am terrified that I will never know the truth, I will always be f*cked over, I will always have to watch my back, and I will never be safe.

3 things...

1) the Truth...ponder this reality. None of us can "KNOW" the truth. You may never know the truth and neither will you h.

Frankly, I don't want my h to know ALL MY TRUTHS' b/c some are just private, most were temporary feelings, or events w/little lasting meaning, or completely ambiguous in meaning and intent.

Truth can be subjective and in this case I don't see how it would help you or your d or your marriage or your h...



My journals from 5 years ago, and more, were "true" at the time I wrote them or i believed them to be. Nothing is written in stone. I disagree with most of what I wrote then. It would be destructive for my h to see what I wrote "to him" but never gave him.

I did think I believed those things, then. Now I mostly don't. How valuable was that "truth" for my h to knnow? Things i wanted then were bandaids that would not be good for my h to know.

2) you fear you will "always be screwed over"...how so?

If you move to the south and quit your job you will lose some money in the short run. (As a couple, that $$ gets more than made up for by his raise).

But you want to get an advanced degree too, which will advance your pay and garner you more salary, ultimately

so in the long run it will benefit you financially in a few short years...and YOU will get to be a SAHM...

Legally the longer you are m, the more your h risks b/c he'll have to pay more in alimony or spousal e, since the marriage will be a longer one and since his income will increase while yours' decreases, he'd be on the hook for more...(check out MS divorce law in case there's an arcane law that hurts you though, to "feel safe")

Like I said, I think in the long run he risks more by the move to the south.


3) feeling safe...(see above). You make yourself feel safe by knowing you are a strong capable loving woman with a child to provide safety for and w/the means to provide it for yourself and her.



Mix in the very real fact that H has a top secret job and I literally cannot know a lot of what happens, and I'm kind of screwed. Unless I just put on a happy face, "let go and let God" or whatever you want to call it, and dial up my antidepressants.

What? Whoah....how are you "screwed" by not knowing all the details of his work? I have a few family members in lines of work I think are similar. My SIL once said she minded having to "lie to new friends" about what they do or why they moved there, but I don't see how it harmed the m, per se.

How does it "Screw" YOU? By not being able to learn all the ins and outs of OW's life at work? Is that it?

Well She'll be gone soon and you are moving anyhow. Frankly, the less you show up at work sounding the way you do now, the better for all.

Don't add to the pressure your h feels not being able to share the pressures of his job w/ you

or the ethical challenges or the way the media spins things and his "team" cannot respond b/c a) they don't exist or b) they don't exactly have a PR department...b/c you feel left out and "screwed". Isn't he the one who could feel that way?

So sure, as a supportive spouse it'd be nice to share all. But many couples face this issue of "separateness" in and out of the military.

I had to hide cases from my h when they involved his colleagues or mentors, whom I represented in investigations or litigation.

Granted, It's not national security but it hindered our social life and was a "barrier" of sorts.

So we talked about things that most couples would love to discuss, things NOT work related....but you being "screwed" by it? Nope I don't get that. Sorry.

I knew my anger would be the thing that would be hard to deal with. Not because I experience residual anger over lots of things,


why NOT this residual anger over lots of things? Why do you gloss over that?



but because my best friend (who was in a relationship for a long time with a chronic cheater) warned me.


No, not "BECAUSE" you bf warned" you? But b/c you have a lot of anger about unresolved issues and some of those are from our family of origin.

How did your mother handle your father's cheating? Did she ever let it go? Did she ever forgive him? Would it be fair to say you did not see models of forgivness growing up?


She said, "you think that if they just stop the cheating then you can forgive and be happy again. But it's the anger that will get you. You will be so angry."

So what are you going to do about it? You are not doing enough NOW.

And it's exactly why a weekend or 4 day workshop is what you need so you can work through, explore and complete the exploration of an issue AND resolve it, with an action plan to follow up with AND a follow up support group (none of which charge, btw).

That's why I hammer these intensives so much. For people in crisis for whom a 2 hour a week talk, won't due it. Intensives are more "efficient" and I don't sense you have a lot of time.

Weekly sessions even with the greatest IC I ever had, often lead to breakthroughs or tearful insights and breakdowns.... But then I had to leave after an hour!.

So my insights, or my emotional milestones had to be stalled out while I went back to work or picked up the kids or my mom called. It was almost impossible to pick up where I left off, the following week and start all over again. It was so piecemeal and hit or miss.

OTOH, Some people can only handle so much digging and intropsection and so much reality at once. Weekly T is best for them (and I'm not putting thoe folks down.

I still see my T once a month just to check in. But you can bet if another crisis or challenge came up I'd hunt down a workshop for myself and I'd go.


May, are brave and you are in a lot of pain and my gut says you'd dig really deep if you were in a safe place to dig and felt supported and knew that hey, "this is it, I have to fix this stuff in me, asap".

You Want to stop racing around the highway and come to a screeching stop at an overlook and see where YOU WANT TO GO? Then do it.

Live a life of clarity and intent...check out the EE website. You are ripe for growth and change at a deep level. I have high hopes for you.

AutumnLeaves attended EE, like I did. Some other DBers are doing it this month in fact. There's one this month and in July. They are not really year round so like I said, llook it up. Angel61 attended Retrovaille as I have and so you can ask either of them for their opinions. None of it will hurt you at this point.


And that's why I got my own place, despite t fact that he tried to stop me (notice he didn't ASK me to come home, just asked me NOT to get the apt). I knew I was too angry. I thought it was over.

And then I found those f*cking emails/chats. I feel like I'm back at square one. At least this time he wants to stay married, but I feel like I could kill him. The first time this happened, I wanted to kill only myself.



So, you thought the anger was over or the EA? Either way, you did not find out that the EA isn't over. So I have to ask you again, you sure it's not like your bf said, that you are simply still angry about the past you have NOT worked out

and any new "issue" that isn't even "new" triggers this avalanche?

Remember that if he believes you won't get past this ever, or you'll hold it over his head or throw it in his face or attack his face,

he can justify leaving and not man people will hound HIM for doing so.


I have a very heavy month of work ahead, as well as some heavy editing to my thesis. I've thought of putting D to bed like I do every night, and then excusing myself to the library down the street until it closes. It will trap him at the apartment and yet I can be away from him. I don't trust myself to be in the same room with him and not lash out.

if those are the options, then get out of the house and leave and focus on your thesis. What's it on anyhow?



And yes, I specifically used the word trap. I feel like I have to. That's where I'm at.

I'm at a loss of what to do.


well you must do more than you have been b/c it isn't working.

If you could stop nursing (which I wanted to mention might also help you for other reasons but it all up to you) you can up the meds. Actually maybe you can anyhow.

But there is cognitive, experiential work to do to get rid of your father cheating stuff that creeps into your worst fears.

Your h has his own family demons and both of you would be better off learning how to let go of those past memories from your families of origin and learn to treasure & protect the lovely family you have created....

Make an emotional "moat" to keep each other feeling loved and protected and special b/c you are. Don't let that other stuff cross your "moat" and get inside you.

I know at this time I sound crazy, unappreciative, childish, and illogical. But I genuinely thank you all for sticking by my side. You guys, and 4 other people, are the only ones I've told about this recent episode. And I haven't told those other people how much I'm struggling with it (aside from my IC). You are all I've got. Thank you for trying to take care of me. Because at this point, I feel very incapable of taking care of me, much less my M.


You are stronger than you know. And much braver than most.

See if you can give or get some contact info to me or about me from AutumnLeaves or KD if you would like.

PLEASE Forgive any typos or nonsense i've put here, since it's SO LATE now and it's my second tome. cool

((((( ))))
Posted By: adinva Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 03:53 PM
May, 25 has way more to offer on the big picture and good suggestions, but I focused in on one little detail where I thought I could add my input. The thoughts of smoking and drinking are among the things I also want to do, and I've noticed I want to be self-destructive at those times. I quit a smoking habit over 20 years ago and haven't touched a cigarette since, but recently in this painful year I've thought about wanting to smoke. I never drank anything at home before, but now am buying wine once a week and limiting myself to a small amount each night, though sometimes I feel like drinking myself to oblivion. I have other coping mechanisms that I think are mildly self-destructive too.

So when you said that you had those thoughts, with surprise, I thought rather than trying to get freedom that H has or rebel, you might just be wanting to do something destructive or bad to yourself.

I'm so worried for you and I hope that you seek out more help than you're getting. Medication for you may be more important than nursing for your baby right now. 25 is absolutely right that taking care of yourself IS taking care of her. Do the simple things that help, that 25 said. Do things to comfort yourself and get help with the anger.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 04:06 PM
DIM,

I think you're in lizard brain.

You're operating from a place of trauma. You're behaving like a traumatized child.

Know this.

That's why you're living on reese's/drinking, whatever. So maybe more like a traumatized teen.

I mean this with LOVE and respect and compassion. When I was in the same boat, it helped me to try to figure out what age I was at, what happened in my life then, and understand I was acting out of that place (as if I were not 40 years old)

See if you can try to cultivate that adult part of yourself and talk to her - is she 8? 18? Calm her down. Tell her "we don't live on reese's anymore, we eat healthy." Practice good self-care.

Remember your boundaries. You don't have to take anything in (a wall) or let anything out. You can take it all in and be a victim and let it all out (which is where I think you're at). Or you can choose to let in what you want and let the rest fall away.

What is getting you about this? Let's get at some of that.

There is a wonderful line in Byron Katie's inquiry practice that asks, "How do you treat yourself when you believe that thought." And basically when we believe stuff about other people "He doesn't listen" "He lies" "He hurt me" - we treat ourselves like crap! Makes no sense, but it's how it works.

Why can't you treat yourself well right now?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/07/12 05:36 PM
DIM,

I want to add (though 25 said it all really).

You don't have to be paranoid.

You can trust yourself.

That's all. Learn how to feel your feelings (it takes 90 seconds); when we attach stories to those feelings and don't actually feel them, they can last 90 years if we let them.

Get into your body. Breath. Then trust - you.

25 is right - only you can make you feel safe. You're looking outside yourself for just about everything right now. What about what's in you? Do you hate yourself?

What advise would you give your daughter if she were in your shoes?

Cultivate that to the little hurt wounded girl inside you.

That's mothering yourself. It's self-soothing. It's a basic tenent to being a healthy adult and not a codependent one.

Beyond that, trust your gut - your instinct. Because that is the only thing that will tell you directly if your husband is cheating, lying, etc.

Not your best friend, your family, him, anyone else. You. Your intuition.

You'll always have that. No one can take it away but you.

There was a time in your life when you felt your power got taken without your permission.

But you were young then.

Now you're an adult. You have to give permission for someone to take your power away. Have you?

Are you trying to correct a wrong from the past? Recreating that sitch?

Explore these things - with your IC, yourself, in a group, with a coach.

But - in the meantime, get back to calm.

Only and i mean ONLY from this calm place - not from a fearful, jolted, traumatized, unclear one - can you make a rightful decision about your life and marriage.

You have the answer in you. No one else does.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/09/12 02:11 PM
I wanted to let you all know I'm not ignoring your responses, just mulling them over. I will make a longer response in the future. Thank you all for the time you've given me in trying to help me and my sitch.
Posted By: KenF Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/09/12 05:38 PM
dueinMay,
think of yourself as a squirrel, you need to coax yourself out slowly, you cant rush it.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/09/12 08:18 PM
I agree with Ken - it takes time. You have to be at least willing to give up some resistance. At least willing to look more at you then H and OW. That's the start...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/09/12 11:23 PM
I love this from Byron Katie's "Loving What Is" - "The only time we suffer is when we believe a thought that argues with what is."

"'Which is more empowering - 'I wish I hadn't lost my job' or 'I lost my job; what can I do now?'"

"The work reveals that what you think should have happened should have happened. It should have happened because it did, and no thinking in the world can change it. This doesn't mean that you should condone or approve of it. It just means that you can see things without resistance and without the confusion of your inner struggle."

There's tons more; it's a whole book! smile - but that struck me.
Posted By: figgeroni Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/10/12 03:47 PM
25 has some great advice...
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/12/12 06:10 AM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I wanted to let you all know I'm not ignoring your responses, just mulling them over. I will make a longer response in the future. Thank you all for the time you've given me in trying to help me and my sitch.


Thanks for letting us know. I do get a bit nervous when folks are in crisis and send out a flare, and then disappear.
Read your posts from November again and ask yourself exactly what - if anything - has changed since then.

And know We are all rooting for you.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 01:42 AM
I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed.

We've had two MC sessions since I last posted, and in the first one, he said some line of BS that followed along the same vein as the bomb last year. Which I think is complete and total crap. Even the T said, "I don't understand... I thought this was getting better."

To which I said, "It was getting better. I don't believe anything coming out of his mouth, and I'm not going to listen to it" and I walked out. We drove separate cars (he came directly from work), so I put the baby seat in his car and left.

When he got home, he said, "I'm sorry, I do want things to work out... maybe we can go on a date tomorrow" (one of his complaints is that we don't go on dates, which is untrue seeing as I PLAN and PAY for them. We've had 3 in the past 2 weeks). I said, "ok, yeah, you do that. If all this was true, why the F did you ask me to come home? I was happy. I had a 3 bedroom apt with my sister. I was independent. I had a year lease. Why did you ask me to move home if you were just 'giving it a shot'?" (another BS line he threw out there during the session). Of course, he couldn't come up with an answer, and of course, he did nothing in the way of planning a date.

Then I went on my girls weekend, which was great (and uneventful, which is what I needed).

And then I came back, and we had another MC today, and even the therapist said, "H, I think you're confused.... you need some clarity, and you need to give her specifics as to what you expect if you're unhappy. W, what would you need from him for the ball to get rolling again."

M: I need him to get a full physical and get his testosterone tested and get into individual counseling.
H: What will that prove?
M: If you have low test. then that might explain your lack of sex drive. And it might explain your depression.
H: Who said I have depression?
T: Do you think you have depression?
H: I don't know....
T: Well, we've only done the MMPI with you. Based on your family of origin, I think it would be wise to do some additional personality testing to see if you have a genetic mood disorder.
H: Ok. I have to notify my company for my security clearance.
T: That's fine.
H: How much will it cost?
T: A copay, usually.
M: I'll pay for it if you take it.
T: Ok, so that sounds like some things that he can work on.
LONG PAUSE
M: I need to know what he wants from me.
LONG PAUSE
T: Well, I think the finances are a strong theme I detect. And taking care of your physical appearance.
M: Yes, but how much? For what? How quickly? What do you want the physical appearance to be? What size? What weight? What measurements?
T: Well, usually we don't try to define those things for the appearance. Usually it's a 'work out X times per week...'
M: Ok, so what are they?
H: Well, I don't know just... more....
M: NO! NO, I'm not doing this wishy washy crap! You need to give me parameters. You do this to people all the time. You are pissed with them, they try to make it work, you make some vague suggestions and then when they do what they think is right based on what you've said, you come up with some lame excuse as to how it wasn't what you wanted. You slip right out of it.
H: I do?
M: Yes (proceeds to tell him multiple occasions). So, no, sorry, you're not doing it to me. You tell me what you want, and I will rise to the occasion. You watch.
LONG PAUSE
T: Well, H, I guess that's something for you to think about for next session.

Ugh I'm so f-ing fed up with him. I'm so sick of him lying to himself.

I was so happy with my best friend this weekend. I didn't worry about H and his crap. I didn't worry whether or not I should have been doing something else. I didn't want to leave. Not even to come home to my D.

I honestly don't think H would be saying any of this if I hadn't found those things, if I hadn't attacked him, if I hadn't been giving him the 3rd degree.

So yes, this is my fault.

So what do I do? Leave until I'm done being angry? Because I'm still angry. And this BS just makes me more angry. He's rewriting history. He's making excuses. Rather than saying, "I don't like it that you're angry", he's saying that he never had rebuilt our relationship. I think because then he would have to say, "Why is my W angry?"

And then he would come to the answer "oh, that's right, because I was a huge f-ing d-bag who tried to ruin our lives".

It's to the point where I want to abandon my family. Not forever and ever. But I just want to ditch for the time being. I want to go to work, and come home, and not owe anything to anyone.

I took H's contact information out of my phone. I took him off my latitude (which he immediately asked back. I guess this makes sense seeing as the baby is with me). I think I'm going to take off my wedding ring and sleep on the couch.

I just don't feel like playing the game right now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 01:51 AM
Great job at standing firm. He is still looking for someone to blame rather than taking personal responsibility. Forget about him for a bit.

Most important thing is that you got yourself back.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 02:25 AM
Wow, this is my relationship to a T, though ex-BF never would have said anything about my appearance, though I know he thought it - but he wasn't Mr. trim and slim himself.

The vagueness, the not setting boundaries, not being clear about his expectations, and then loading it all up and quietly resenting (but not communicating) then blowing us all away.

Gee, thanks, ex-BF.

Yeah, there were times he threatened to leave. That was his signal to let me know he didn't like my behavior, but I was so darn miserable, it was hard to heed the call. And whenever I brought anything of his to the table - his distance, porn use, lack of sex, communication with ex-gf, sarcasm, subtle put downs, avoidance, it was more threats to leave or dismissiveness.

Bleh. Not what I'd call an adult relationship. It was a traumatized boy in a 34 year old body acting like a 17-year-old and "rebelling" and not grown up enough to behave maturely and process emotions and be intimate.

Sorry, that's not what I know we're supposed to be posting about or talking about here - those not "in the room" - this is about you but, May, dude. I'd be FREAKING PISSED AS HELL!

I am still when I have to deal with him.

So no one's telling you not to be pissed. Sweetie, what the F?

Just that you gotta learn how to manage YOU - and your needs, emotions, anger, boundaries, etc. Whether you're with H or not. Either way.

Treat this, maybe as a lesson then? You get better and it's a win-win, right? Because you either win with H or win with someone else, but the BEST PART? You keep all that new growth and hard work for YOU ... and your daughter.

The place I reached when I was at my very wit's end (daghter was about 18 months old), was to just take the focus off him and focus on me. What did I need to do differently?

I took MY power back. I was sick of his expectations of ME - I wanted to know what I defined as a good person and a beautiful person and a good weight FOR ME - [censored] him. [censored] his porn use, his starting and ogling other women in front of me, telling me what he thought was "hot" - I know some people on this board will disagree b/c it's all about knowing what our partners want and meeting THEIR needs - but what about you?

I mean, in the end, I didn't even want to BE with my ex-BF. He was just a cover, in the end, for my "stuff" that needed work. He was an excuse, somewhere else to throw all the energy, attention, and blame.

(And I believe the same is true for him to me) - we each have some heavy lifting. Who knows what the hell he's doing with his - probably in bed with someone new, thinking "it'll all be different" (after all, he thinks all this was my fault).

I've had a rough road, but I've come SO far and am sooooo amazingly proud of my gorgeous beautiful self and my progress. I love me now. I love who I am and my soul and my spirit and my hair and my weight and my everything - And whoever is attracted to me now will really know me - I have to be accountable to me. Not FOR someone else - I have to check in with my self and say "how far off base am I here?"

I think it's time to do this work, May. In the R or out. The R is a decoy at this point for your own growth.

Live with him or don't. Get answers or don't. LET IT GO - he's going to do WHATEVER. HE. WANTS. and you won't control a single ounce of it.

So put the focus 100% on May - and your baby. You've tried. You've given this your all - you've thrown yourself at him, physically attacked him, tried to be his everything, left, came back.

Sweetie, it's about you now.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 07:55 AM

You have a TOUGH situation and it IS confusing.

I didn't know about things like the weight parameters still...does he have a great body or what? Are you way out of shape?
Aren't you one of those women (I hate) who loses ALL the weight she gained, in a month?
Man, that itself is a tough thing to hear, with a baby not even a year old. And are you still nursing too? Criminy!


Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed.

why can't you be pissed? Who said you could not be angry?


We've had two MC sessions since I last posted, and in the first one, he said some line of BS that followed along the same vein as the bomb last year. Which I think is complete and total crap. Even the T said, "I don't understand... I thought this was getting better."

To which I said, "It was getting better. I don't believe anything coming out of his mouth, and I'm not going to listen to it" and I walked out. We drove separate cars (he came directly from work), so I put the baby seat in his car and left.

When he got home, he said, "I'm sorry, I do want things to work out... maybe we can go on a date tomorrow"


so he is SAYING the right things, at times, but not following up with action, correct? He acts very confused.

(one of his complaints is that we don't go on dates, which is untrue seeing as I PLAN and PAY for them. We've had 3 in the past 2 weeks). I said, "ok, yeah, you do that. If all this was true, why the F did you ask me to come home? I was happy. I had a 3 bedroom apt with my sister. I was independent. I had a year lease. Why did you ask me to move home if you were just 'giving it a shot'?" (another BS line he threw out there during the session). Of course, he couldn't come up with an answer, and of course, he did nothing in the way of planning a date.

Has there been date time yet? Don't bring it up b/c maybe he is planning one but wasn't ready b/c you went off with your peeps...do NOT bring it up or you'll negate any good he'd get out of planning b/c you will make him feel forced...

The good news is I think him saying "let's go on dates" sounds as if he wants to connect with you on a non parental level. Man to woman.

Yes, I know you have a child now, and I can see that it would be annoying to pretend otherwise or for him to require your whole attention--but the thing is, a lot of men at their core-

have deeply mixed feelings when their first child is born.

Suddenly they are sharing their wives in a most intimate way, at first the child may in the bed and suckles on the breast (and the h goes to the couch & works the next day b/c he did not get Paternity leave...super fun for him after a few weeks)

and as the child often is IN their bed or bedroom -it interferes with sleep and sex, and that's in addition to time w/o sex after the baby...

and new mothers (understandably) focus A LOT on the baby and

there are men who won't admit it but do resent it...he sounds so conflicted. He wants to be a mature man and a good h and father...but his "genetic code" is so FLAWED...

So if he doesn't plan a date SOON--
just let that go. And IF he does plan a date, THANK GOD & enjoy it...


Then I went on my girls weekend, which was great (and uneventful, which is what I needed).

And then I came back, and we had another MC today, and even the therapist said, "H, I think you're confused.... you need some clarity, and you need to give her specifics as to what you expect if you're unhappy. W, what would you need from him for the ball to get rolling again."

M: I need him to get a full physical and get his testosterone tested and get into individual counseling.
H: What will that prove?
M: If you have low test. then that might explain your lack of sex drive. And it might explain your depression.
H: Who said I have depression?
T: Do you think you have depression?
H: I don't know....
T: Well, we've only done the MMPI with you. Based on your family of origin, I think it would be wise to do some additional personality testing to see if you have a genetic mood disorder.

Wow I cannot believe SHE said that^^^ or that YOU said that...but YAY.

What is HIS explanation for less sex? That you are "wrong" in your perception or what? (IS it less than before, or has he always been this way?)


H: Ok. I have to notify my company for my security clearance.
T: That's fine.
H: How much will it cost?
T: A copay, usually.
M: I'll pay for it if you take it.


um, YIKES!...why would you say that? Is he that cheap or just avoidant? (I'm NOT making a fighting cat noise, just asking...)


T: Ok, so that sounds like some things that he can work on.
LONG PAUSE
M: I need to know what he wants from me.
LONG PAUSE
T: Well, I think the finances are a strong theme I detect. And taking care of your physical appearance.
M: Yes, but how much? For what? How quickly? What do you want the physical appearance to be? What size? What weight? What measurements?
T: Well, usually we don't try to define those things for the appearance. Usually it's a 'work out X times per week...'
M: Ok, so what are they?
H: Well, I don't know just... more....
M: NO! NO, I'm not doing this wishy washy crap! You need to give me parameters. You do this to people all the time. You are pissed with them, they try to make it work, you make some vague suggestions and then when they do what they think is right based on what you've said, you come up with some lame excuse as to how it wasn't what you wanted. You slip right out of it.
H: I do?

I am glad you spoke your mind. And it's interesting that he asked whether he really does...he noted it. You may have planted a seed.


M: Yes (proceeds to tell him multiple occasions). So, no, sorry, you're not doing it to me. You tell me what you want, and I will rise to the occasion. You watch.

Do you WANT to do that??^^^ To prove what? That's it him, not you? Well Maybe it is him -and or, maybe these expectations and their specifics, are a little bit insane???

May, you must know I greatly RESPECT your courage and discipline here.

But is this something YOU WANT to "rise to"?

Do you feel these are reasonable expectations for a h to spell out to his WIFE? How does it make you feel?

Are you worried that for unknown reasons, he simply won't ever find you good enough -and you want to remove any articulable reason from his arsenal?

you think by rising to the task, no matter how unreasonable or unkind or unloving or unaccepting it may be, that it will work?


LONG PAUSE


T: Well, H, I guess that's something for you to think about for next session.

Ugh I'm so f-ing fed up with him. I'm so sick of him lying to himself.

I was so happy with my best friend this weekend. I didn't worry about H and his crap. I didn't worry whether or not I should have been doing something else. I didn't want to leave. Not even to come home to my D.

I honestly don't think H would be saying any of this if I hadn't found those things, if I hadn't attacked him, if I hadn't been giving him the 3rd degree.

So yes, this is my fault.


do you believe this^^^? B/C IF YOU DO ,

then the answer to your next question about "what to do", is

NOT let anger dictate your actions and behavior.

At least then you'll have a lot fewer regrets.


So what do I do? Leave until I'm done being angry? Because I'm still angry. And this BS just makes me more angry. He's rewriting history. He's making excuses. Rather than saying, "I don't like it that you're angry", he's saying that he never had rebuilt our relationship. I think because then he would have to say, "Why is my W angry?"

OMG I so relate. If I expressed that my needs were not being met My h would say "well you always say that" OR (my personal fav), "You shouldn't feel angry/lonely/neglected" ...that drove me crazy.
... honestly about 2 sentences spoken from him at the right time could solve a lot. You'd think they'd get it after several years.


And then he would come to the answer "oh, that's right, because I was a huge f-ing d-bag who tried to ruin our lives".

laugh hilarious ^^^^^ (and gee, it's probably why they DON'T ask us what they did that made us feel badly--b/c THAT ^^ might be our answer!)

It's to the point where I want to abandon my family. Not forever and ever. But I just want to ditch for the time being. I want to go to work, and come home, and not owe anything to anyone.

(SIGH) I get it...


I took H's contact information out of my phone. I took him off my latitude (which he immediately asked back. I guess this makes sense seeing as the baby is with me). I think I'm going to take off my wedding ring and sleep on the couch.

I just don't feel like playing the game right now.


May, How is YOUR IC going? And are you reminding yourself of the basics you already know,

eating and sleeping right, caring for yourself, renting or seeing comedies to LAUGH...keep your sister and friends close...let them envelope you with their support and try not to linger on the anger...breathe it out.

You h may well be suffering in his own way AND for all we know, he's actually sick.

"In sickness and in health"...to a point. He DOES have to get help.

b/c this isn't about staying married - at all costs...

but from where I sit, I see 2 people struggling mightily to be married,

and one of them isn't giving up yet...and that's him.


I applaud your efforts - and only ask that you not give up, today...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 04:47 PM
May, I think what 25 said above is also key - behavior, not words, remember?

I suspect that you're overcompensating for your H because you're afraid if you pulled back, did nothing, you'd see the real truth about where your marriage is. And that would be hard to face.

But it is The Truth.

That's not to say it's wrong, good, bad, done, etc. It just is what it is. I feel like when we're working with the truth, with reality, we can build so much stronger from that place - not from illusions or decoys.

Is your husband kinda checked out? Seems so. Is he blaming stupid things? Seems so. Are you buying it? Hmm...

What is it about for you to try to please him all the time? What do you make it mean that he says stuff about your appearance? You might look at that, or your own relationship to your own father. Was there a "not good enough" theme? This is your stuff. Your husband is triggering it.

GET THAT HELP YOU DESERVE. WORK ON YOU.

For me, my ex-bf triggered a lot - in me - and did it mean he didn't have his own [censored]? Hell no. But what he did with it was up to him (I believe he chose to use it as an excuse to bail - and keep his "stories" about me going so he doesn't have to look at himself.)

But after I decided to "be still" and just leave him be and look at my stuff, we were still living together. I decided to stop caring about his avoidance, porn, emotional issues, etc. Except that they kept triggering me - and it was becoming impossible for me to heal in his presence. It was like an open wound that kept getting jabbed at with his put-downs, sarcasm, and power trips.

So I asked him to leave. He did and came right back. I asked him a second time a week later, and this time he left for good.

It's not been easy. Of course, I wanted an intact family, a sibling for my daughter, a father in the picture, and so on. But the truth is, I have done so much amazing work in these past 8 months that I would not have been able to do in the face of constant negativity from him.

He can tell himself "She made me leave" "She yelled at me" "She's an angry bitch" or whatever he wants. Truth is, he is all the things he thinks I am and he's using me as an excuse to not grow up, be a deadbeat, not commit, not look at his stuff.

Don't do this job FOR your husband. Let him do his own heavy lifting. Once you disengage and work on your stuff, he will be left with his own stuff to face. But not a minute before then - as long as you're in the picture trying to control it all and get him tested for this and that, he doesn't have to look. He freaked out when you left because he ALMOST HAD TO LOOK - and he wanted you back for cover. Soothing. Comfort. But now that you're back, it's a return to the very same issues that were there in the first place -

His very deep ambivalence about intimacy and ownership in real ways.

Hate to say it, May, but you can't make him do this work.

I think I said it a zillion times, hope it's crystal clear now. I hope you get help for you.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 05:48 PM
Dear May

I asked you a question awhile back and didn't get an answer. And I kind of need one so I can advise better b/c I'm really not clear on something.

What is different or NEW now, (substantively, not old stuff that you found but recent stuff that is happening)

that was NOT true back in November, when you two were healing?
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/18/12 09:14 PM
Hey DIM...

I'm just catching up on your sitch again and reading through this thread... not 100% done, yet... So if you've mentioned this, please forgive my ignorance on it...

What's the possibility that you can indefinitely remove yourself from the physical proximity of your H, except in regards to visitations between your H and D, at this time?
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 03:47 AM
I'm going to apologize in advance for typos and missing any key info yall want. It's late and I'm exhausted... but here goes...

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You have a TOUGH situation and it IS confusing.

I didn't know about things like the weight parameters still...does he have a great body or what? Are you way out of shape?
Aren't you one of those women (I hate) who loses ALL the weight she gained, in a month?

Man, that itself is a tough thing to hear, with a baby not even a year old. And are you still nursing too? Criminy!
[/color]Yes, actually, I not only lost all of my baby weight within a month, and now I'm currently 20 lbs UNDER my pre-pregnancy weight. I'm a comfortable size 4. Size 6 pants literally fall off me. And no, he doesn't have a great body. I mean, he's naturally thin. 6 foot tall, never been more than 200 lbs. But he does not take care of himself well, at all. He's just genetically gifted in that department. I think it's a complete rouse because he knows that this was an area of my life in which I was very uncomfortable for a long time. But honestly, since becoming a mother (and losing all that weight doesn't hurt either...), I'm more confident about my body now than I ever was before my baby. So I think he's just trying to hit where he used to know it hurts and the complaint has no real ground to stand on. And yes, still nursing. Plan on continuing until at least June 1st (last day of work for me)
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed.

why can't you be pissed? Who said you could not be angry?

Sorry, I realized that ESN said something about this too. I realize this might have come across as me saying YOU guys said I couldn't be super pissed. No, no, no. Sorry, I meant I don't think my H is ok with me being super pissed. No, he's not said this outloud, but I think he is unhappy that I'm pissed, and the way he's dealing with my anger is to say "Well, I was just 'giving this a shot'. I haven't REALLY been happy these few months" I believe this new "episode" is due to me being pissed off and depressed. Because he cannot handle it when I'm the weak one. So he's rebelling. I can't even be upset because he just becomes more ridiculous. I'm tired of being the strong one.
We've had two MC sessions since I last posted, and in the first one, he said some line of BS that followed along the same vein as the bomb last year. Which I think is complete and total crap. Even the T said, "I don't understand... I thought this was getting better."

To which I said, "It was getting better. I don't believe anything coming out of his mouth, and I'm not going to listen to it" and I walked out. We drove separate cars (he came directly from work), so I put the baby seat in his car and left.

When he got home, he said, "I'm sorry, I do want things to work out... maybe we can go on a date tomorrow"


so he is SAYING the right things, at times, but not following up with action, correct? He acts very confused.

(one of his complaints is that we don't go on dates, which is untrue seeing as I PLAN and PAY for them. We've had 3 in the past 2 weeks). I said, "ok, yeah, you do that. If all this was true, why the F did you ask me to come home? I was happy. I had a 3 bedroom apt with my sister. I was independent. I had a year lease. Why did you ask me to move home if you were just 'giving it a shot'?" (another BS line he threw out there during the session). Of course, he couldn't come up with an answer, and of course, he did nothing in the way of planning a date.

Has there been date time yet? Don't bring it up b/c maybe he is planning one but wasn't ready b/c you went off with your peeps...do NOT bring it up or you'll negate any good he'd get out of planning b/c you will make him feel forced...

The good news is I think him saying "let's go on dates" sounds as if he wants to connect with you on a non parental level. Man to woman.

Yes, I know you have a child now, and I can see that it would be annoying to pretend otherwise or for him to require your whole attention--but the thing is, a lot of men at their core-

have deeply mixed feelings when their first child is born.

Suddenly they are sharing their wives in a most intimate way, at first the child may in the bed and suckles on the breast (and the h goes to the couch & works the next day b/c he did not get Paternity leave...super fun for him after a few weeks)

and as the child often is IN their bed or bedroom -it interferes with sleep and sex, and that's in addition to time w/o sex after the baby...

and new mothers (understandably) focus A LOT on the baby and

there are men who won't admit it but do resent it...he sounds so conflicted. He wants to be a mature man and a good h and father...but his "genetic code" is so FLAWED...

So if he doesn't plan a date SOON--
just let that go. And IF he does plan a date, THANK GOD & enjoy it...


Then I went on my girls weekend, which was great (and uneventful, which is what I needed).

And then I came back, and we had another MC today, and even the therapist said, "H, I think you're confused.... you need some clarity, and you need to give her specifics as to what you expect if you're unhappy. W, what would you need from him for the ball to get rolling again."

M: I need him to get a full physical and get his testosterone tested and get into individual counseling.
H: What will that prove?
M: If you have low test. then that might explain your lack of sex drive. And it might explain your depression.
H: Who said I have depression?
T: Do you think you have depression?
H: I don't know....
T: Well, we've only done the MMPI with you. Based on your family of origin, I think it would be wise to do some additional personality testing to see if you have a genetic mood disorder.

Wow I cannot believe SHE said that^^^ or that YOU said that...but YAY.

What is HIS explanation for less sex? That you are "wrong" in your perception or what? (IS it less than before, or has he always been this way?)

Oh yes, I'm throwing it out there. I'd rather have a rule out diagnosis than potentially miss that. HIS explanation for less sex is that he isn't "attracted" to me. Which again, he did not bring up until I started being pissed. And there was a lapse in our sex life immediately prior to baby, but that was not for his lack of trying, it was my fault (I was in a terrible job and all I wanted to do when I came home was sleep)
H: Ok. I have to notify my company for my security clearance.
T: That's fine.
H: How much will it cost?
T: A copay, usually.
M: I'll pay for it if you take it.


um, YIKES!...why would you say that? Is he that cheap or just avoidant? (I'm NOT making a fighting cat noise, just asking...)

Avoidant. I want to eliminate any excuse he might come up with not to take that.
T: Ok, so that sounds like some things that he can work on.
LONG PAUSE
M: I need to know what he wants from me.
LONG PAUSE
T: Well, I think the finances are a strong theme I detect. And taking care of your physical appearance.
M: Yes, but how much? For what? How quickly? What do you want the physical appearance to be? What size? What weight? What measurements?
T: Well, usually we don't try to define those things for the appearance. Usually it's a 'work out X times per week...'
M: Ok, so what are they?
H: Well, I don't know just... more....
M: NO! NO, I'm not doing this wishy washy crap! You need to give me parameters. You do this to people all the time. You are pissed with them, they try to make it work, you make some vague suggestions and then when they do what they think is right based on what you've said, you come up with some lame excuse as to how it wasn't what you wanted. You slip right out of it.
H: I do?

I am glad you spoke your mind. And it's interesting that he asked whether he really does...he noted it. You may have planted a seed.


M: Yes (proceeds to tell him multiple occasions). So, no, sorry, you're not doing it to me. You tell me what you want, and I will rise to the occasion. You watch.

Do you WANT to do that??^^^ To prove what? That's it him, not you? Well Maybe it is him -and or, maybe these expectations and their specifics, are a little bit insane???

May, you must know I greatly RESPECT your courage and discipline here.

But is this something YOU WANT to "rise to"?

Do you feel these are reasonable expectations for a h to spell out to his WIFE? How does it make you feel?

Are you worried that for unknown reasons, he simply won't ever find you good enough -and you want to remove any articulable reason from his arsenal?

you think by rising to the task, no matter how unreasonable or unkind or unloving or unaccepting it may be, that it will work?

I think his expectations are ridiculous in the long term, however, I have put myself through more hell trying to accomplish goals than saving a few extra dollars and losing a few extra pounds. And yes, I want to remove ANY articulable reason. I will be damned if he continues to blame me for the downfall of our relationship. It will not be because I was not the one who tried. It will be because he is an unreasonable, unhappy, never able to be pleased a-hole. I've seen him do this to his parents. He went to family therapy with them, the therapist laid out "ground rules" that were just the least big vague, and H totally exploited the holes in the agreement and said, "you're not following the rules, so I'm not in this relationship anymore" despite even I could tell they really were trying to play by the agreed upon rules (and I freaking hate those people and I complained that it was wrong). I knew at that moment that it didn't matter if they became the picture perfect family and did everything H ever wanted them to do; he would never believe it or accept it.
LONG PAUSE


T: Well, H, I guess that's something for you to think about for next session.

Ugh I'm so f-ing fed up with him. I'm so sick of him lying to himself.

I was so happy with my best friend this weekend. I didn't worry about H and his crap. I didn't worry whether or not I should have been doing something else. I didn't want to leave. Not even to come home to my D.

I honestly don't think H would be saying any of this if I hadn't found those things, if I hadn't attacked him, if I hadn't been giving him the 3rd degree.

So yes, this is my fault.


do you believe this^^^? B/C IF YOU DO ,

then the answer to your next question about "what to do", is

NOT let anger dictate your actions and behavior.

At least then you'll have a lot fewer regrets.


So what do I do? Leave until I'm done being angry? Because I'm still angry. And this BS just makes me more angry. He's rewriting history. He's making excuses. Rather than saying, "I don't like it that you're angry", he's saying that he never had rebuilt our relationship. I think because then he would have to say, "Why is my W angry?"

OMG I so relate. If I expressed that my needs were not being met My h would say "well you always say that" OR (my personal fav), "You shouldn't feel angry/lonely/neglected" ...that drove me crazy.
... honestly about 2 sentences spoken from him at the right time could solve a lot. You'd think they'd get it after several years.


And then he would come to the answer "oh, that's right, because I was a huge f-ing d-bag who tried to ruin our lives".

laugh hilarious ^^^^^ (and gee, it's probably why they DON'T ask us what they did that made us feel badly--b/c THAT ^^ might be our answer!)

It's to the point where I want to abandon my family. Not forever and ever. But I just want to ditch for the time being. I want to go to work, and come home, and not owe anything to anyone.

(SIGH) I get it...


I took H's contact information out of my phone. I took him off my latitude (which he immediately asked back. I guess this makes sense seeing as the baby is with me). I think I'm going to take off my wedding ring and sleep on the couch.

I just don't feel like playing the game right now.


May, How is YOUR IC going? And are you reminding yourself of the basics you already know,

eating and sleeping right, caring for yourself, renting or seeing comedies to LAUGH...keep your sister and friends close...let them envelope you with their support and try not to linger on the anger...breathe it out.

You h may well be suffering in his own way AND for all we know, he's actually sick.

"In sickness and in health"...to a point. He DOES have to get help.

b/c this isn't about staying married - at all costs...

but from where I sit, I see 2 people struggling mightily to be married,

and one of them isn't giving up yet...and that's him.


I applaud your efforts - and only ask that you not give up, today...

My IC is going as well as it can right now I think, but honestly, I'm still in a bad place. Just when I think I've got a handle on one thing (like sleep) I realize I've slipped up somewhere else (like now, anytime I'm completely alone, which is rare, but if I'm say, driving alone, if I see a car come close to me I think "maybe they will accidentally hit me and it will kill me and things will finally be over" I'm not consciencely in pain, but I find myself thinking about dying a LOT)


I think the thing that has changed for me since November is that I asked him over, and over, and over again and again about the truth of the matter. And then I found just a small amount of the truth, which was MUCH worse than what I had been lead to believe.

I think H is full of crap. I don't think he feels any different about me. I think he feels like sh!t about himself and he's projecting it on to me. I think he feels nothing different about me. I think his recent "change of heart" is a complete BS manipulation move to attempt to get me to stop being angry with him.

So I think nothing has changed since November for him. He's just digging himself a bigger hole.

We have 2 weeks to notify our apartment what we're doing. If we're staying or leaving in 60 days.

At this point, I don't even know what I want to do with him.

Leaving is not really feasible. I mean, it is, but I don't want to embarrass myself by shacking up at my parents again, and then potentially reconciling again. Because I've been on the other end of that deal, and I just lose all respect for that person and find myself saying "yeah, ok, whatever" and feeling no empathy for them if they keep putting themselves in the same situation.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....

I'm really in a different place this year than I was last year. I'm having a really hard time wanting to be with someone who will say these kinds of things:

I promise I will never do this to you again.

You don't need to worry, I will be there for you.

When do you want to have another baby?

Let's pick out our "forever" home.

I'm willing to sign a post-nuptial agreement (this was in the hours following my physical attack).

Let's get that joint checking and credit card accounts that we've never had to show you how much I'm in this.

......someone who will say all those things, and then turn around and say, "well, we were just 'giving it a shot'. I wasn't really happy"......

What kind of person puts their family through all that horsesh!t, finally gets it together, only to say that was all supposedly false?

What kind of message does that send to my D? That no one, not even the people who you are supposed to trust most in the world, is trustworthy?

I'm really struggling with this.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 04:38 AM
ok, DIM... that part about you thinking about dying... well, it concerns me.

I would prefer if you do not tell me to not worry about it, and rather talk to someone, I suppose to your IC, as soon as possible, please? thanx.

Further to that, we all want our pain to end when we have it. It's normal...

And so is your anger...

This is a legitimate and honest question: do you want to be angry?

If you do, that's fine. How long would you like to be angry for? I'm not looking for an abstract answer such as, "until I get it all out" but rather an actual amount of time.

A week? A couple weeks? A month?

No kidding, this type of thinking works. If you set an amount of time that you would like to be full on angry, you give yourself permission to be angry, instead of fighting it... and then being angry at yourself for being angry...

By giving yourself permission to be angry, you can let it out, get it out of your system, and within the time you set, it is quite likely the majority of your anger will be gone... at least that "steam from the ears; instant react mode" anger will be...

So... how long would you like to be angry?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 08:32 AM
KD's post is spot on

you said at one point this is your fault b/c of your anger. Well, is it that OR your h or both or neither?

I bet you'll say both. So you own part of this..Not saying being angry does not make sense. It does. Just asking like KD, how long are we going to stay with the being mad part - b/c being mad doesn't not just sukk for your h, it sukks for YOU...which is what I care about the most.

Are you a woman of faith? If so, have to tried turning this over to Him? It's a lot to carry when you are a new mom.

Last but SO NOT LEAST...how is your beautiful d? She turns one soon!

Is she standing or walking yet? Can you Tell us about her?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 01:17 PM
May, a few quick things and I'll write more later -

The person who would say those things - and I'm dealing with this in therapy now - is called a person dealing in "verbal reality" - they say things that make them feel good and that is enough - they don't have to follow through and it confuses people around them (I deal with this in my ex-BF - i.e., "Do you want me to get you guys a swing set for the back yard? I'll get one and set it up.") (At this point, I know it'll never happen - he says it b/c it makes him feel like a good guy to say it).

Remember - behavior.

So, for instance, what happened with the joint checking?

He said it and then what? Was there talk about follow-through? Okay, let's open one this weekend after lunch? Does he expect you to go out and do it? (Well, with joint, I think you both have to be there).

What does that look like?

Just for your own sanity - remember VERBAL REALITY and BEHAVIORAL REALITY

So we know what he's SAYING but what's he been DOING? (Answer this if you can -) differently?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 01:31 PM
Also May - a few things about your D -

She is okay. Trust that. You nursed her for almost a year and that is a beautiful gift for your daughter - she is attached/bonded, and I'm sure doing well. She is not picking up on these things the same way adults do - "making it mean" something. Trust that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. She will thrive.

My daughter went through a lot from the time she was in utero til 8 months ago when her daddy picked up and left. She was deeply sad, but she has a close relationship with me now and I'm her "safe person" and her dad, who she is very attached to, she misses and loves being with - I don't know what that will mean for her growing up - but she has parents who love her and she is a happy funny little girl.

FOCUS ON YOU

The more you take the focus off you and put it on H or D, the longer I believe this will drag out. YOU have stuff to resolve.

Also, I would never tell a nursing mom to stop nursing - I nursed for two years and had to quit b/c my body couldn't take it much more.

BUT I will say - it contributed to 95% of my moods and emotions. The hormones are still there for me - and my PMS is god awful. Hormones are powerful chemical substances that can bring out the worst rages in women (estrogen). I know. I have friends like this.

Not saying your anger isn't real. It is, but it might be excerbated right now by nursing hormones -
And not to say you should quit, but know this....
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/19/12 11:13 PM
Thanks for your concern, guys. I'll talk to my IC about it. It's not to the point where I'm extremely concerned about it (it's weird... it's like there are two people inside me. The T me, and the me-me. The T me sees when there is major cause for concern. It's not there yet, but we're approaching a line that needs to be dealt with in a more serious manner). I promise I will call my doctor by the end of the month if I'm still having these thoughts (I'd really rather not up my medication if possible).

I like the idea of setting a time limit on my anger. I've never viewed it that way before. I forget who brought it up (25, maybe?), but someone asked how my mother dealt with my father's affair and the resulting divorce. Not well. Not well at all. Forgiveness is not her forte. My father is one of the most forgiving people on the planet. My mother is not. She's gotten a lot better, but even now, more than 10 years later, every now and then something will crop up where I think "really? you're still pissed about that?" So, yeah, never really had a good example of how to get over something like that (not that it's an excuse, but someone asked, so there's the answer). 10 years is a LONG time to be pissed off. And then I think of my aunt, who's in her 70s, and I swear she is more angry with my grandmother (who, to my aunt's credit, was a terrible mother and a real looney) now that she's dead (and been dead since 2006) than she was when she was alive. She's still pissed about things that happened when she was a teenager. 50+ years is a REALLY LONG time to be pissed off. There are better things to do with one's time...

I'm not sure what a good time limit is. There's a part of me that fears that once I've given up my anger, and I've come to terms with it, that I will find something new, something worse, and then I will be retraumatized all over again. I almost think it's better to already be in a bad place and hear more bad news and already be in that "well, this situation just generally blows" mindset rather than get my hopes up that this relationship is back on track and have it all blown out of the water again.

Is it unrealistic to set my anger timeline on an event rather than a date? Like, for example, I've never said I wanted baby number 2 at a certain time or a certain date. For me, it's about a milestone (D1 has to be potty trained and follow really basic 1 step instructions reliably). If I had to put an amount of time on how angry I'll be about the stuff that has already happened, I'll say a month. For clarity, we'll say D's birthday. HOWEVER, what do I do when NEW things piss me off (for example, him saying in the past 2 weeks that these past few months were "just trying" and not the real deal)? Because I feel like every time I'm starting to get to the end of being angry, he does some new dumba$$ thing again and then I'm retriggered.

There's been a nice moment of clarity out of all of this recent episode. I've decided that I sincerely do not care where H is or what he is doing or who he is with. If he cheats on me again (emotional, physical or otherwise), I'm done. Out. Finished. And seeing as my whole freaking life is observing behavior, I think I'll know pretty darn quick when something is fishy. And then it won't be hard to find out. And then I'll be done. So it's nice to know that if this situation occurs again, I don't have the whole "oh my God what do I do with this information" aspect to it. I already know. I'll be out.

H tried to complain about some trivial BS last night. I fixed his complaints within an hour and then he was like, "well... that's great... and... thanks for that...." and realized he didn't have a leg to stand on. After D went to bed I said, "I'd like to run some errands without her. I'm going to the grocery store" and then stayed out for 2 hours. I mean, I did run errands, and it was easier without D, but really it was just to be alone and without any time limits or real responsibilities.

I'm not wearing my wedding ring. I purposefully put it next to his cologne. This is kind of big for me. I wore a ring through everything last year. As a sign of me not giving up. I'm trying to make a very strong statement that I am not ok at all with his current actions. He is aware of me not wearing it.

I've not told him I love him in several days. It's not been hard. Not like it was last year.

I don't know how he feels. I try not to concern himself too much with it. I know if I were him, I'd be thinking "she's giving me mixed signals... she takes care of things she knows I care about, but then she doesn't tell me she loves me, and she doesn't wear her ring". Really, I'm uninterested in helping more with keeping the marriage a float until he does the following things:

1. Get a physical with testosterone levels.
2. Take those additional personality tests that our MC recommended
3. Start seeing an IC again.
4. Give me real, measurable, objective goals for finances and health.

Until then, I'm just going to do my thing the best I can. I have a draft for my thesis due tomorrow (which is SO not ready). I have an ARD for a student on Monday (which is SO not ready). We're still living out of boxes and I need to start figuring out what I'm doing for D's birthday. We're supposed to notify our apt in 2 weeks if we plan to stay longer or move out. That can be H's decision. I'm not making that call.

So on to something better... my D. :-) She's sassy and smart, but very sweet. Very happy. She's got strawberry blonde hair and steel blue eyes. She's been taking steps since Valentine's, but only in the past 3 weeks has she really taken off. She knows about 15 words, and some really easy sign language (more, finished, no, potty). She sprouted 4 teeth this weekend (which was a relief... up to that point she only had 1!). She's an excellent sleeper still and loves ALL food except for avocados. She even loves pickles and mustard! She's dramatic. When she's disappointed she throws her head back and arches her back with her arms up to fall to the ground and wails. I ignore her and then she quickly recovers. She screams with delight when she sees stuffed animals (she thought the Easter bunny was the best thing EVER). And she insists on sneaking French kisses from the dog when she thinks I'm not looking. She only watches PBS for TV and LOVES Sesame Street, so I think I'm going to do that as the theme for her birthday party. I think she'll love it.

Alright, I better work on that draft that will so not be ready by tomorrow....
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 02:14 AM
May, I might respectfully disagree with KD on the anger timeline. I love his advice, always, but I'm going to suggest reading the Chapter on Anger in the book the Language of Emotions. I might have mentioned it before. Anger repressed, no good- anger expressed, no good.

Anger is there to help us learn boundaries and take different actions. This is a huge opportunity for growth for you. Your anger is here to teach you something. Can you trust that?

The book is a bit wordy, but really talks about how to handle anger and that it will come up again and again. Just like any emotion.

It's like saying set a timeline on Joy, or Sadness, or Happiness - one emotion isn't good or bad - they just are. And they have messages. We learn from them. And we heal from them.

I think you're talking about setting boundaries in the rest of your post here, and you sound so much better when you do - stronger, in your power.

You are talking about "if he does this," I will "do this" and that is your boundary. You can be safe there knowing you are "out of here" (which I see as having a healthy limit to someone hurting you and getting away, doing something else, etc. taking care of yourself).

And then you said you can trust yourself in knowing if that happens. Beautiful! You trusting you! You taking care of you! And then detaching "I don't care what he does" - I'm here (but barely (you are detaching for your own sanity) - ring off, etc.) - and I am requesting this - a, b, c.

So now, as far as timelines. What timeframe are you giving him for this list of yours? And what if he doesn't comply?

Also, be careful with the ring off - don't do it for him to change. It's your boundary. It's for you to know your boundary is thicker and you are detached now - not to "show him something" - KWIM?

Okay. You're sounding good!
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 02:17 AM
P.S., the author of Language of Emotions writes, in the chapter on Anger, that the "internal questions" around anger rising are "What must be protected" and "What must be restored?"
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Thanks for your concern, guys. I'll talk to my IC about it. It's not to the point where I'm extremely concerned about it (it's weird... it's like there are two people inside me. The T me, and the me-me. The T me sees when there is major cause for concern. It's not there yet, but we're approaching a line that needs to be dealt with in a more serious manner). I promise I will call my doctor by the end of the month if I'm still having these thoughts (I'd really rather not up my medication if possible).

I like the idea of setting a time limit on my anger. I've never viewed it that way before.

well It's a goal to work toward with an internal deadline in it. WithIn your timeline
you work on processing the anger so you can let it go.

No one is asking you to repress it. But you can't just hit people either.

And You can always "re-set" it if you are not ready to let go - but it's a start.



I forget who brought it up (25, maybe?), but someone asked how my mother dealt with my father's affair and the resulting divorce. Not well. Not well at all. Forgiveness is not her forte. My father is one of the most forgiving people on the planet. My mother is not. She's gotten a lot better, but even now, more than 10 years later, every now and then something will crop up where I think "really? you're still pissed about that?" So, yeah, never really had a good example of how to get over something like that (not that it's an excuse, but someone asked, so there's the answer).


I asked b/c I know that forgiveness was not something I grew up seeing and so I didn't know what it looked like. I really Don't think my father ever apologized for anything

until he was on his death bed. Then, he had deep remorse. But my mom could not muster up real forgiveness (though she mouthed it to him at the time).

For ME and my siblings (who'd been in T and worked on it), my father expressing remorse and asking for our forgiveness

was actually a watershed, and "Holy" moment in my life and the lives of my siblings.


If you never saw it growing up, as I didn't, it was something I had to learn to do. And it's essential in dealing with the anger,

especially when we feel or cognitively believe -that our anger is justified.


10 years is a LONG time to be pissed off. And then I think of my aunt, who's in her 70s, and I swear she is more angry with my grandmother (who, to my aunt's credit, was a terrible mother and a real looney) now that she's dead (and been dead since 2006) than she was when she was alive. She's still pissed about things that happened when she was a teenager. 50+ years is a REALLY LONG time to be pissed off. There are better things to do with one's time...

well it's clear you need NEW role models for handling anger and learning forgiveness, ...seriously...and are any of those women happy? Content?

OR seething or bitter, etc...permanent victimhood is not what you want and you already know it, which is a start.


I'm not sure what a good time limit is. There's a part of me that fears that once I've given up my anger, and I've come to terms with it, that I will find something new, something worse, and then I will be retraumatized all over again. I almost think it's better to already be in a bad place and hear more bad news and already be in that "well, this situation just generally blows" mindset rather than get my hopes up that this relationship is back on track and have it all blown out of the water again.


^^^It's NOT better. That's a myth and It's negative thinking with the idea that somehow you are "protecting" yourself by assuming the worst. It's really not very rational (you think that having hope for the m somehow increases the chances of something bad happening? Why? B/c God doesn't want you to be happy? B/c you don't deserve it? OR B/C you never saw your mom get over her pain?

AND

it's a big drag to experience b/c you won't "take the risk" of feeling happy (gee that's fun AND healthy for your d...b/c hey, YOU grew up with it...stop the cycle for your d)

AND worst of all, the negativity can create the very event you fear...


Is it unrealistic to set my anger timeline on an event rather than a date? Like, for example, I've never said I wanted baby number 2 at a certain time or a certain date. For me, it's about a milestone (D1 has to be potty trained and follow really basic 1 step instructions reliably). If I had to put an amount of time on how angry I'll be about the stuff that has already happened, I'll say a month. For clarity, we'll say D's birthday.


Are you seriously considering having another child w/this man, at this time?



HOWEVER, what do I do when NEW things piss me off (for example, him saying in the past 2 weeks that these past few months were "just trying" and not the real deal)? Because I feel like every time I'm starting to get to the end of being angry, he does some new dumba$$ thing again and then I'm retriggered.


is it possible you have too many triggers? Or that they are too easily pulled?



There's been a nice moment of clarity out of all of this recent episode. I've decided that I sincerely do not care where H is or what he is doing or who he is with. If he cheats on me again (emotional, physical or otherwise), I'm done. Out. Finished. And seeing as my whole freaking life is observing behavior, I think I'll know pretty darn quick when something is fishy. And then it won't be hard to find out. And then I'll be done. So it's nice to know that if this situation occurs again, I don't have the whole "oh my God what do I do with this information" aspect to it. I already know. I'll be out.



I kind of agree with this^^ IF you don't project negativity into your interactions.

I know that on one hand, DBing is a way of life, holding yourself accountable and really choosing your battles...

but OTOH, I also know that if my h were to experience another round of MLC or whatever it was, or if there were an affair, I'd be done and not look back b/c there are some protective boundaries I have and need.

I find that feels safer to me and MAYBE a tad "empowering" (not sure if that's the word I want, but for now it'll do).

But I'm more & more optimistic about our future, and I let a lot more slide b/c most of the stuff I whined about was me sweating the small stuff b/c most of it IS SMALL...not worth conflict.

There will always be annoying things in each of us. Somehow I'm more able to see those traits in my h as idiosyncrasies/eccentricities, rather than flaws. And he seems to be doing that with me more too.

I won't say it's "unconditional love" b/c we all have some conditions...if our partner treats us badly enough for long enough, WE LEAVE...



H tried to complain about some trivial BS last night. I fixed his complaints within an hour and then he was like, "well... that's great... and... thanks for that...." and realized he didn't have a leg to stand on.


why bother interacting like that^^ at all? Why engage in it if it's silly?

I mean were you doing something significantly bad, dangerous, annoying, mean, damaging, etc??
May, it just sounds like a lot of score keeping and that is a big drain...



After D went to bed I said, "I'd like to run some errands without her. I'm going to the grocery store" and then stayed out for 2 hours. I mean, I did run errands, and it was easier without D, but really it was just to be alone and without any time limits or real responsibilities.

I'm not wearing my wedding ring. I purposefully put it next to his cologne. This is kind of big for me. I wore a ring through everything last year. As a sign of me not giving up. I'm trying to make a very strong statement that I am not ok at all with his current actions. He is aware of me not wearing it.


Not sure why you can't just say that you are not happy with his current actions. Surely he knows that by now. What is your real point here? That you will leave him IF HE doesn't shape up?


I've not told him I love him in several days. It's not been hard. Not like it was last year.


And the point in withholding your love or expressions of it is what? To make him miss the relationship that isn't loving? I mean, May...you know better.

you still have not answered that question about what is different now than in November, substantively...not when you found out but when it happened...

I don't know how he feels. I try not to concern himself too much with it. I know if I were him, I'd be thinking "she's giving me mixed signals... she takes care of things she knows I care about, but then she doesn't tell me she loves me, and she doesn't wear her ring". Really, I'm uninterested in helping more with keeping the marriage a float until he does the following things:

1. Get a physical with testosterone levels.
2. Take those additional personality tests that our MC recommended

what will YOU do if he gets a diagnosis? What is this for? You think HE will do something to work on it IF a diagnosis is given? AND If Not?


3. Start seeing an IC again.
4. Give me real, measurable, objective goals for finances and health.

May I assume YOU would have to buy into the goals?

And is this b/c you want to disarm his arsenal b/c deep down, you fear he'll never think you are good enough and you want to make sure that
this will "prove" it's HIM, not you?


Until then, I'm just going to do my thing the best I can. I have a draft for my thesis due tomorrow (which is SO not ready). I have an ARD for a student on Monday (which is SO not ready). We're still living out of boxes and I need to start figuring out what I'm doing for D's birthday. We're supposed to notify our apt in 2 weeks if we plan to stay longer or move out. That can be H's decision. I'm not making that call.

So on to something better... my D. :-) She's sassy and smart, but very sweet. Very happy. She's got strawberry blonde hair and steel blue eyes. She's been taking steps since Valentine's, but only in the past 3 weeks has she really taken off. She knows about 15 words, and some really easy sign language (more, finished, no, potty). She sprouted 4 teeth this weekend (which was a relief... up to that point she only had 1!). She's an excellent sleeper still and loves ALL food except for avocados. She even loves pickles and mustard! She's dramatic. When she's disappointed she throws her head back and arches her back with her arms up to fall to the ground and wails. I ignore her and then she quickly recovers. She screams with delight when she sees stuffed animals (she thought the Easter bunny was the best thing EVER). And she insists on sneaking French kisses from the dog when she thinks I'm not looking. She only watches PBS for TV and LOVES Sesame Street, so I think I'm going to do that as the theme for her birthday party. I think she'll love it.

Alright, I better work on that draft that will so not be ready by tomorrow....


(((( ))))
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 06:25 AM
You sound good and positively focused again, DIM.

ESN, I'm good with your question about timelines for emotions. Yes, that is not a standard method as emotions do eb and flow and never occur one at a time.

Without hijacking DIM's thread on this, it was my guess that DIM was in distress and her outlet was anger based expression... when the underlying emotion was NOT anger... so by clearly focusing on the anger emotion, the person in distress sits with it for a moment and goes... hang on... I'm not really angry...

hope that makes sense. I'd love to see you start a new thread for yourself ESN and learn where you're at and have some dialogue on this stuff. I'd love to know what you've been up to and learning. cool
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 12:37 PM
KD, I get it - though I do think she's angry. I thought that zillions of posts ago and everyone came down on me. I'm just going to hold steady on that hunch. And suggest she read from this book. It is powerful and even address that anger can be the emotion (that there doesn't always have to be something underlying).

I'm sure there could be fear there - fear of loss, fear of facing self, taking ownership, responsibility, growing up, etc. (not saying these are true for DIM, just examples) but I think the anger is a powerful teacher and it especially comes in handy around setting boundaries - which I believe May could use - a boundary inside which she can work out her anger (without that kind of expression of it) and ask herself "what needs to be restored" "What needs to be protected"
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 03:06 PM
Where does anger come from, ESN? I mean the underlying condition?
Posted By: figgeroni Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 05:03 PM
awesome post 25!!!
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 06:47 PM
KD, I see where you're going, but I'm talking from a perspective of processing anger in a healthy way - not whether it should exist or for how long. Letting it be the helpful emotion that it is - the alert to "I need to set a boundary here" and "What needs to be protected/restored" b/c that's how, I believe, anger can be used in healthy ways and move through us (not get stuck, explode or repressed). If it sounded like May were processing her anger in a healthy way, then maybe this wouldn't be a point to make here, but since she attached her husband and is having trouble understanding if she should or shouldn't be angry or thinking maybe her husband is avoiding her b/c of her anger, I think it could be helpful to her to use her anger as a helpful tool to see what she needs and how she can communicate that - that's what anger *can* teach us if used well. Does that make sense? (I don't want to get into a discussion and hijack to much - just clarify my intentions with post about this) of course, DIM will do whatever she wants! I'm just putting it out there.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 07:38 PM
I think we're beating a dead horse.

May said her anger is a problem. She knew it might be.

We all know she's angry. There is no dispute about that.

NOW it's a question of what to do with it today. And what NOT to do.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 08:10 PM
Good stuff, ESN.

So from a practical perspective, what do you feel that DIM should actually DO to work through this anger?

DIM's emotional distress is showing up as emotional anger which is getting translated into physical violence and verbal attacks and outbursts.

What do you feel she should she actually DO?

DIM, what do you feel you might do when it feels like those emotions are about to explode in you? IF you are still feeling them in uncontrollable ways...
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 08:11 PM
lol... you beat me to it, 25... grin
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 09:11 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Thanks for your concern, guys. I'll talk to my IC about it. It's not to the point where I'm extremely concerned about it (it's weird... it's like there are two people inside me. The T me, and the me-me. The T me sees when there is major cause for concern. It's not there yet, but we're approaching a line that needs to be dealt with in a more serious manner). I promise I will call my doctor by the end of the month if I'm still having these thoughts (I'd really rather not up my medication if possible).

I like the idea of setting a time limit on my anger. I've never viewed it that way before.

well It's a goal to work toward with an internal deadline in it. WithIn your timeline
you work on processing the anger so you can let it go.

No one is asking you to repress it. But you can't just hit people either.

And You can always "re-set" it if you are not ready to let go - but it's a start.



I forget who brought it up (25, maybe?), but someone asked how my mother dealt with my father's affair and the resulting divorce. Not well. Not well at all. Forgiveness is not her forte. My father is one of the most forgiving people on the planet. My mother is not. She's gotten a lot better, but even now, more than 10 years later, every now and then something will crop up where I think "really? you're still pissed about that?" So, yeah, never really had a good example of how to get over something like that (not that it's an excuse, but someone asked, so there's the answer).


I asked b/c I know that forgiveness was not something I grew up seeing and so I didn't know what it looked like. I really Don't think my father ever apologized for anything

until he was on his death bed. Then, he had deep remorse. But my mom could not muster up real forgiveness (though she mouthed it to him at the time).

For ME and my siblings (who'd been in T and worked on it), my father expressing remorse and asking for our forgiveness

was actually a watershed, and "Holy" moment in my life and the lives of my siblings.


If you never saw it growing up, as I didn't, it was something I had to learn to do. And it's essential in dealing with the anger,

especially when we feel or cognitively believe -that our anger is justified.

Ok, so how do I learn to do it? Especially when, like you said, it's cognitively justified? I know what he did is f*cked up. Everyone I've told this too agrees (and usually in a much stronger tone than me), so.... what now?[/color]

10 years is a LONG time to be pissed off. And then I think of my aunt, who's in her 70s, and I swear she is more angry with my grandmother (who, to my aunt's credit, was a terrible mother and a real looney) now that she's dead (and been dead since 2006) than she was when she was alive. She's still pissed about things that happened when she was a teenager. 50+ years is a REALLY LONG time to be pissed off. There are better things to do with one's time...

well it's clear you need NEW role models for handling anger and learning forgiveness, ...seriously...and are any of those women happy? Content?

OR seething or bitter, etc...permanent victimhood is not what you want and you already know it, which is a start.
Yes, it was a nice eye opening experience for me to see that. Unfortunate for my mother and aunt, but at least I've learned (or am trying to learn, however you want to put it) from it.
[/color]

I'm not sure what a good time limit is. There's a part of me that fears that once I've given up my anger, and I've come to terms with it, that I will find something new, something worse, and then I will be retraumatized all over again. I almost think it's better to already be in a bad place and hear more bad news and already be in that "well, this situation just generally blows" mindset rather than get my hopes up that this relationship is back on track and have it all blown out of the water again.


^^^It's NOT better. That's a myth and It's negative thinking with the idea that somehow you are "protecting" yourself by assuming the worst. It's really not very rational (you think that having hope for the m somehow increases the chances of something bad happening? Why? B/c God doesn't want you to be happy? B/c you don't deserve it? OR B/C you never saw your mom get over her pain?

AND

it's a big drag to experience b/c you won't "take the risk" of feeling happy (gee that's fun AND healthy for your d...b/c hey, YOU grew up with it...stop the cycle for your d)

AND worst of all, the negativity can create the very event you fear...

I guess I should clarify. I don't mean to just... stay depressed and ergo I can't be "re-depressed". It's not like I'm looking to channel Eeyore. I think my problem is, is that once I'm done being angry with someone, I have been reoffended again and again. And really the only way I can stop being angry with someone is if I stop having any expectations for them, and stop investing any emotions in them. For example, I've really stopped giving two craps about my step-brother (who again has relapsed on heroin). I don't wish him ill-will. It would be nice if he were to eventually get better. But I have no expectations for him to remain sober and I have no invested interest in his recovery process (he relapsed in January and I've not spoken to him once since then). Even with some of the parents of my students, I've learned to expect very little of them. Some parents are great, others a reliably awful. It doesn't upset me when those parents are awful, because I anticipate them to be so. It just is what it is. While this works just fine for our relationship, I can't very well have this mindset with a spouse. I feel like you can't have ZERO expectations with your spouse. I feel like unless I don't hold him accountable for anything, he will continually disappoint me. So.... I'm having a hard time letting go of the anger because... I'm afraid if I let go of that, I will probably have emotionally completely let go of H.
Is it unrealistic to set my anger timeline on an event rather than a date? Like, for example, I've never said I wanted baby number 2 at a certain time or a certain date. For me, it's about a milestone (D1 has to be potty trained and follow really basic 1 step instructions reliably). If I had to put an amount of time on how angry I'll be about the stuff that has already happened, I'll say a month. For clarity, we'll say D's birthday.


Are you seriously considering having another child w/this man, at this time?
No, no, no, no, no. Sorry, that example was just for outlining how I often define timelines in my head by events and not chronicle dates.[/color]


HOWEVER, what do I do when NEW things piss me off (for example, him saying in the past 2 weeks that these past few months were "just trying" and not the real deal)? Because I feel like every time I'm starting to get to the end of being angry, he does some new dumba$$ thing again and then I'm retriggered.


is it possible you have too many triggers? Or that they are too easily pulled?

The main trigger for me is lies. Any and all form of lies. Including lies to oneself. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't understand denial. I think it's ridiculous. And I really can't think of too many things outside of lying that H has done that sets me off.[/color]


There's been a nice moment of clarity out of all of this recent episode. I've decided that I sincerely do not care where H is or what he is doing or who he is with. If he cheats on me again (emotional, physical or otherwise), I'm done. Out. Finished. And seeing as my whole freaking life is observing behavior, I think I'll know pretty darn quick when something is fishy. And then it won't be hard to find out. And then I'll be done. So it's nice to know that if this situation occurs again, I don't have the whole "oh my God what do I do with this information" aspect to it. I already know. I'll be out.



I kind of agree with this^^ IF you don't project negativity into your interactions.

I know that on one hand, DBing is a way of life, holding yourself accountable and really choosing your battles...

but OTOH, I also know that if my h were to experience another round of MLC or whatever it was, or if there were an affair, I'd be done and not look back b/c there are some protective boundaries I have and need.

I find that feels safer to me and MAYBE a tad "empowering" (not sure if that's the word I want, but for now it'll do).

But I'm more & more optimistic about our future, and I let a lot more slide b/c most of the stuff I whined about was me sweating the small stuff b/c most of it IS SMALL...not worth conflict.

There will always be annoying things in each of us. Somehow I'm more able to see those traits in my h as idiosyncrasies/eccentricities, rather than flaws. And he seems to be doing that with me more too.

I won't say it's "unconditional love" b/c we all have some conditions...if our partner treats us badly enough for long enough, WE LEAVE...



H tried to complain about some trivial BS last night. I fixed his complaints within an hour and then he was like, "well... that's great... and... thanks for that...." and realized he didn't have a leg to stand on.


why bother interacting like that^^ at all? Why engage in it if it's silly?

I mean were you doing something significantly bad, dangerous, annoying, mean, damaging, etc??
May, it just sounds like a lot of score keeping and that is a big drain...

I'm just trying to take as much wind out of his sails as possible for him to realize his "big complaints" are ridiculous. I'm not trying to earn "points" per se, but just trying to prevent myself from being blamed. Notice the pattern of avoiding blame? It's a big thing for me. If I need to own it, I will, but I refuse to be blamed for crap that is not my fault. Is it my fault my thesis is late? Yes. Is it my fault that H is now "doubting" how much he wants to be in the marriage? Yes, he's doing this because of my anger. But that's why it infuriates me when he says straight up crap like "we never go on dates". Fool, yes we do, I know we do, because I plan and pay for them!

After D went to bed I said, "I'd like to run some errands without her. I'm going to the grocery store" and then stayed out for 2 hours. I mean, I did run errands, and it was easier without D, but really it was just to be alone and without any time limits or real responsibilities.

I'm not wearing my wedding ring. I purposefully put it next to his cologne. This is kind of big for me. I wore a ring through everything last year. As a sign of me not giving up. I'm trying to make a very strong statement that I am not ok at all with his current actions. He is aware of me not wearing it.


Not sure why you can't just say that you are not happy with his current actions. Surely he knows that by now. What is your real point here? That you will leave him IF HE doesn't shape up?

I feel like I've said it over and over and over again, and he doesn't seem to be getting it. And yes, I think that is the point. I'm not going to be his scapegoat anymore. When he can take some ownership and participate in the marriage and WANT me to be his wife, I feel comfortable wearing that ring. Based on the BS he's been spewing in MC, he doesn't know if he "wants" to be married anymore. Fine, then I don't think I should wear the ring if he's going to throw that around. I don't take that "threat" lightly. And at this point, I don't think he genuinely feels that way, I feel like it's a manipulation tactic.
I've not told him I love him in several days. It's not been hard. Not like it was last year. [/b][/color]

And the point in withholding your love or expressions of it is what? To make him miss the relationship that isn't loving? I mean, May...you know better.
I'm not saying it because... at this point, I'm very much not feeling it. It's not to influence him in anyway. I just... don't feel it.

you still have not answered that question about what is different now than in November, substantively...not when you found out but when it happened...
For me... it's about having been duped. I really, honestly believed that OW was not really an OW. More of just a friendship where lines were a little too blurred and she meant nothing to him. And from what I gathered from thos conversations and from previous evidence that I rationalized, I'm having a very hard time believing that there was no PA. And if there was a PA, I'm done. Out. It is a total and complete deal breaker for me. Even if it's over and done with. I cannot be with someone who has done that to me.
I don't know how he feels. I try not to concern himself too much with it. I know if I were him, I'd be thinking "she's giving me mixed signals... she takes care of things she knows I care about, but then she doesn't tell me she loves me, and she doesn't wear her ring". Really, I'm uninterested in helping more with keeping the marriage a float until he does the following things:

1. Get a physical with testosterone levels.
2. Take those additional personality tests that our MC recommended

what will YOU do if he gets a diagnosis? What is this for? You think HE will do something to work on it IF a diagnosis is given? AND If Not?

H believes in the power of expertise. If someone were to tell him, "look, you are clinically depressed based on these results" then he would probably listen and take action. I will then support him in whatever way he needs support to get the help that he needs be it IC, meds, whatever. If no diagnosis is given... then maybe it is time for me to leave. I don't want to do this "I love you. No I don't" thing anymore.
3. Start seeing an IC again.
4. Give me real, measurable, objective goals for finances and health.

May I assume YOU would have to buy into the goals?

And is this b/c you want to disarm his arsenal b/c deep down, you fear he'll never think you are good enough and you want to make sure that
this will "prove" it's HIM, not you?
Exactly. I want to prove that it is him and that he is making himself miserable. That he could have the most "perfect" woman in the world and still be miserable. That he chooses not to be happy, even when everything measures up to his standards. And then where does he go? If everything on his "perfect" list is checked off, but he's still miserable, he's got to come to the conclusion, "hm, maybe the list maker is the thing that's f*cked up and not the list"

Until then, I'm just going to do my thing the best I can. I have a draft for my thesis due tomorrow (which is SO not ready). I have an ARD for a student on Monday (which is SO not ready). We're still living out of boxes and I need to start figuring out what I'm doing for D's birthday. We're supposed to notify our apt in 2 weeks if we plan to stay longer or move out. That can be H's decision. I'm not making that call.

So on to something better... my D. :-) She's sassy and smart, but very sweet. Very happy. She's got strawberry blonde hair and steel blue eyes. She's been taking steps since Valentine's, but only in the past 3 weeks has she really taken off. She knows about 15 words, and some really easy sign language (more, finished, no, potty). She sprouted 4 teeth this weekend (which was a relief... up to that point she only had 1!). She's an excellent sleeper still and loves ALL food except for avocados. She even loves pickles and mustard! She's dramatic. When she's disappointed she throws her head back and arches her back with her arms up to fall to the ground and wails. I ignore her and then she quickly recovers. She screams with delight when she sees stuffed animals (she thought the Easter bunny was the best thing EVER). And she insists on sneaking French kisses from the dog when she thinks I'm not looking. She only watches PBS for TV and LOVES Sesame Street, so I think I'm going to do that as the theme for her birthday party. I think she'll love it.

Alright, I better work on that draft that will so not be ready by tomorrow....


(((( ))))
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 09:16 PM
So now that we all agree that I'm angry.....

I just... want H to be better! I just... I don't know what I want.

I know what I don't want. I don't want someone who makes up trivial crap to be pissed about. I don't want someone who changes the rules to the game because they no longer like those rules. I don't want someone who will threaten me with things they know I fear or try to go for the gut with things they think will hurt me the most. I don't want someone who can't say they're sorry. I don't want someone who can't admit when they're wrong. I don't want someone who lies.

And right now, H is all of that. And right now, I don't want him.

I want the man I married. Or at least the man I thought I married.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/20/12 10:49 PM
Um, new problem that for me is very unexpected.

I'm having panic attacks now. Specifically when he initiates a series of calls or texts. I don't know why.

Heart racing. Neck muscles tightening. It's anything and everything in me not to break out in fearful tears. Shear panic.

He texted me about 2 hours asking if I wanted to go out tonight
M: Sure. With or without baby?
H: I texted Friend and his wife and D can play with their son.
M: Alright. What time?
H: 6:30?
M: Ok

Then when I'm about 10 minutes from home, I'm overcome with this intense dread. I do not want to be with him tonight. I want to be alone. Then he calls and I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack.

H: Hey, so you almost home?
M: Yeah.
H: Ok. I thought you weren't going to get home for a while longer. Do you want to meet up with Friend at 6?
M: No. I think I'll just drop off D and meet you up there.
H: Why?
M: I just want to be alone for a bit.
H: Why?
M: I just... do....
H: Everything ok at work?
M: Yeah, I just want to be alone for a while.
H: Do you want to cancel with Friend?
M: No, we complain when they do that to us. I'll just go later.
H: Ok.
M: Ok see you in a bit.

He meets me out at the car and asks again to see if everything is ok. I don't remember what lame brush off comment I came up with, but I know that I didn't even look at his face. I saw that he had moved his car, so from across the apartment I said, "so what did you do today?"
H: Just worked from home
M: That's it?
H: Well, and got a haircut.

I couldn't even look at him enough to notice he got a haircut, and I always can tell on him. I didn't even realized I was THAT avoidant.

Man... I'm thinking I'm more f*cked up than I originally thought.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 03:15 AM
Went to dinner. Was miserable. I managed to put on a good face, but I think they could tell something wasn't right.

Before leaving, I zoned out on Pinterest for a while looking for birthday party ideas for D. I left my phone in the car and didn't care about it. When I finally went to the car to leave, I found 4 missed texts from H, progressively getting more perturbed.

H: Eta? Food?
:::30 minutes:::
H: U comin
:::2 minutes:::
H: They asking for ya
:::15 minutes:::
M: Coming
H: If you're not coming say so. F*ck.
H: Oh ok.
M: I'm coming.
M: Hey. You literally disappeared for hours or days at a time without letting me know a G*d damned thing. I will be there when I am f*cking ready.
H: Don't say you're coming then be late.
M: You said you told em I'd be as late as 7
::: 3 minutes later:::
H: Ok.

I lied to our friends. Told them I was working on my thesis. I left before H because D was tired and H needed to drive his friend home (his wife also left early with their son). H walked me out to move the car seat from his car to mine.

H: So you finished your thesis.
M: No.
H: I thought you said you did.
M: I lied. Nothing's done.
H: So what were you doing?
M: I was... um... getting my head straight.

At this point he looked like he was going to throw up.

H: Well, I guess I'm going to stay with friend and have another brew and take him home. I'll see you later.
M: K.

And I left.

I got a sick satisfaction out of seeing him look so miserable.

What the hell is happening to me.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 03:00 PM
May, as to your first post, I think you have to let go. Letting go does not than assume control of what may happen after, but what good is holding on to your feelings right now? Are you afraid that you'll be ... (how? FILL IN THE BLANK) toward H? If you let go of expectations? I understand, and I totally think you should.

But then that'll be the truth. Of your relationship. Not a relationship with you blowing sunshine into it or trying to revive it. You can then sit and observe the truth. And who knows what it'll be.

Is that freeing?

Also, As far as saying "over and over" I think if he's not listening, behavior (for you) is next.

So do you think he had a PA?

And if he did, you're out?

And if his sexual withdrawl is due to depression or hormones, you will rush to his side in support?

Just being clear.

I think what you are trying to "prove" to him you cannot prove.

It's his business. Stay in yours.

Do what you need to do. Stop trying to have puppet strings on him - it's blurring the truth.

When I stepped all the way back, May, my ex-BF wouldn't even call his daughter. I put all that there - I did all the work FOR HIM. Now, just these past couple weeks, I pulled so far back - I can see the truth. He does very very very little. And that is the truth. I'm seeing it clearly. I'm not trying to make him get tests or prove to him that it'll be this way with anyone. It will. But he's gotta find that out. And he will smile I trust that.

Can you?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 03:01 PM
So where is your boundary? Why are you with your H, May?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 03:06 PM
KD, the language here is confusing.

I don't think you "work through" emotions. You let them rise up and you let them be guides.

Why do I feel "guilty"? We look at that.

Why do I feel "angry"? What needs to be protected? Restored?

For example, last night it took me 3 hours to put D to bed. Three! I wanted me time. I was exhausted after my week. Ex-BF contributes to this problem with her sleep. I was ANGRY! So I asked myself "what needs to be protected" (my sleep and D's bedtime) and restored (My ownership as mom and power to speak up when people are messing with her schedule, my sense of grounding). And so I had a boundary, I litterally breathed the anger out of me into my boundary and I acknowledged my own feelings and self-soothed a bit.

If you want to call that "working through" I guess. But that's a small example of what I'm talking about.

Looking at it. Acknowledging it, seeing what it's here to tell you, and maybe heeding that. Getting support, talking it through, being in your own boundary and soothing, talking to the inner child from an adult place. All those things.

Rage and fury are a little different - but that's also address in this book. Would probably be very helpful for May.

She is giving all her power over to her husband, and she's pissed. Yeah.
She's suffered boundary violations both of him to her and her to him.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Good stuff, ESN.

So from a practical perspective, what do you feel that DIM should actually DO to work through this anger?

DIM's emotional distress is showing up as emotional anger which is getting translated into physical violence and verbal attacks and outbursts.

What do you feel she should she actually DO?

DIM, what do you feel you might do when it feels like those emotions are about to explode in you? IF you are still feeling them in uncontrollable ways...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 03:57 PM
Also, KD, emotions come up all the time, each time they are different - if they are not - it means they're stuck, stagnant, not being processed.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 06:27 PM
May, I just think you're acting young - not in your adult self here. Why not? What age do you feel? What happened then?

Really one of the basic rules of codependency recover, is to step back. Develop some boundaries.

May, ask for what you need. Be prepared to get an answer you don't want to hear. Be prepared for reality.

In Love Addiction, Pia Mellody has a whole section about asking our partner to meet our needs. Of course, they're allowed to say no. But if they repeatedly say no? Well, it's on us at that point.

Crickets.

The truth.

KWIM? We start to see what's real. Even if we don't want to or haven't wanted to face that.

I'm doing this with my mom right now. I stepped way back after she repeatedly behaves in ways that are childish and upsetting to me. I let her know that she hurt me and I am taking some time. I've heard nothing back from her. If I keep telling her I'm going to have to step back or requesting that I need some commitment from her when she makes a plan (follow through) and she keeps ignoring that request, well - she's my mother - I doubt I'll stop talking to her, but I will have MUCH stronger boundaries - like you said in an earlier post of yours - that detachment. Sure, it's not ideal with our spouses, family, even some friends, but if it's what's necessary to survive in the relationship, why not?

Anything else seems like we're living an illusion.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay

Man... I'm thinking I'm more f*cked up than I originally thought.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/21/12 11:12 PM
May, I haven't posted to you before (as far as I can recall) but I have been reading your story since last Spring when I first began reading the board.

It was a year this month that I got my bomb but my H and I have been piecing for over 7 months.

My H had a PA. I always said it was my dealbreaker. In hindsight, that was easy to say because I had no idea. Yes, I imagined how it would feel but reality is never quite how we imagine it. For me, I realized I didn't stop loving my H the minute his affair was revealed. I thought my anger would take my straight to plan D. It wasn't that simple.

And piecing is definitely not simple, nor is dealing with the anger of betrayal or being the LBS.

I understand your anger. I've done far too much reading about affairs in the 7 1/2 months since I discovered my H's. Suffice it to say, what I've learned is that regardless of whether it's a PA or an EA, the fallout is the same. The journey to healing follows the same path (and it's never linear), as it does when you are dealing with a death. In many ways, it is a death. The death of who you thought your spouse was and the death of your old marriage. Sadness, depression, anger....they are all part of the journey.

My journey has not been perfect. In many ways, I felt like a failure as a DB'er because many times my anger would get the best of me. There were many days when I wanted to throw in the towel and be done with the whole darn mess. I'm sure there will be many more days like that....

I thought I was failing because sometimes I was the one who wanted to quit.

But what I realized is that I just wanted an escape from the pain. And I was angry at everything I had to deal with...

But whether I'm in my M or I leave. I can't get away from the pain. It has to be dealt with...

Just like the anger.

I wondered it I had it in me to forgive. I picked up a book on forgiveness called "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrams Spring

And I realized that there is a big difference between cheap forgiveness and genuine forgiveness. The later takes longer and the path is not always easy. I read something recently about a woman who said the journey to forgiving her H for abandoning her and cheating on her, did not happen overnight. It happened in stops and starts, and in hills and valleys. Until one day, she was there but she wasn't quite sure how she had gotten to that place. BUT she had forgiven because she started by simply making the choice to start down that path. That helped me realize that I had to stop putting pressure on myself. I needed to stop thinking I was bad or wrong or somehow not good enough because I was not there yet.

After one of my angry outbursts, I decided I would try harder to contain my anger. That expressing it was not helping us with our recovery. Weeks later, my husband asked if I was purposely holding back on expressing my anger. I said yes. And he said, "I don't want you to not be afraid to express your anger. I want you to be able to talk to me. You have every right to be angry. I made poor decisions that hurt you and our kids and if I was you I would be very angry. I know you are going to be very angry for a long time and that's okay."

And there it was...

It was okay to be angry.

You can't simply decide to stop being angry. At least I don't think you can and not have resentment pop up years down the road. But you can choose how to express that anger.

I haven't read your entire thread so I have no idea if you've ever sat down with your husband and told him exactly why you're angry.

I wrote myself an email listing everything that made me angry about my situation. Everything I felt I had lost. Just got it out on paper.

I find somedays the anger is there and other days it is not. I imagine someday in the future, I will think about what happened to us and I may always be sad for what was lost but someday maybe it will stop stinging quite so much.

And maybe I will be happier for what we have gained.

And for now, that is enough.

Good luck to you, May.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:04 AM
Brilliant post Endeavor...

I wondered how you two were doing. Did you go to Retrovaille?

Previously, we had attended other workshops, or marriage encounters years ago. Some were mediocre, some had blindingly obvious "insights", or pricey new age jargon that was like word salad if you really looked...But a few were quite profound.

Retrovaille can be skimmed by couples who want to avoid the real work, but if you go there and open yourself to it, it CAN work near miracles. We got a lot out of it, and so yes, I recommend it. Of course you need two people to go. I have heard of the rare time when a spouse leaves early but no one leaves worse off.

The guiding couples at our Retrovaille retreat had been through HELL and yet they were there, together as couples really valuing their marriage. The problems they had before, made our marriage problems pale in comparison.

I kept thinking
"OMG if THEY can get thru THAT (like facing the death of a child AND bankruptcy)...then we need to STFU and cope better..."

H & I were both grateful and more hopeful about our relatively minor problems. To see couples who faced major crises like those in their lives, and were still there together, and seemed committed to their m's, really energized us.

MAY--- any chance you & H could attend Retrovaille?
Though you can find non-denominational ones, ours was Catholic but you'd not really know it. yes there was a priest physically present but he spoke a total of maybe 30 min in the whole weekend and it wasn't "Catholic" it was more about setting up private time with him IF you were upset with the Church or organized religion.
(I respected him for that).

But if the word Catholic bothers you or your h, then find a non-denominational one. Retrovaille people "get" that shoving religious views down someone's throat usually does not help m's in crisis. They're not stupid.

WHY GO NOW? B/C May, As angry as you are atm, it may help you later in calmer times to know you left no stone unturned, and that you did right by your d.


Do you recall that "Essential Experience" workshop I suggested for YOU in particular, earlier? 2 peeps from here have attended and a 3rd one is going this month. Both said they loved it, & gained clarity to make a real action plan for their lives, that they lacked before.

My bff from high school is a t, and she loved it and said it'll become part of her counselling services. (So Hey, it's tax deductible for you!)

WHY GO NOW? B/c it only takes YOU to go, and you do have stuff that is yours and yours only, which affects your m. AND

B/C I think you are ripe for a breakthrough, but you need the real life support of fair & healthy people, to make that happen.
Hence the presistent suggestion.

Plus, the need for more than one hour at a time to make the progress you want and to keep the focus on YOU and your stuff. It's more efficient for sure.

(I don't want to sound like an Amways salesperson, so I'll just finish by saying there are no magical gurus or trendy new tricks. Unlike some of the other workshops I've attended, (e.g., Landmark, est, Imgao)

the EE conductors are very well educated/qualified. They've studied everything from Carl Rogers & Carl Jung, from Virginia Satir to Maslow, from Gestalt to the behavioralists. Their structured process is nothing short of brilliant, imo.

And EE is not pricey & they don't pressure you for more money "For the next level". It's a safe supportive real life environment for you to do your work in.
I swear May, I wish I could just send you - b/c you deserve the breakthroughs you seek).

Meanwhile, you asked HOW to let go of anger or begin to forgive.


I can only say what helped me. Like you w/your h, I cognitively believed that H had wronged me and the kids and in more than one way. Here are a few things that come to mind atm, that helped me.

The first is the example I grew up with, like you have, that showed me what NOT to do.

We had neighbors where I grew up, including an Army COL and his w and 5 kids. He had been a POW in Vietnam and I assume he had some stories I would have liked to hear. I didn't get to hear them though, b/c whenever I asked about them or anything from his life, his w would interrupt us. I assumed she did this to protect him. I was wrong.

He had had an affair a few years before they moved onto our street. How did I know that, when I was just a teenager?

B/C we all knew b/c the wife made sure she "leaked" it out.


All of her children (4 girls and 1 boy) knew too. The boy is twice divorced. We dated in high school. He was handsome, smart and kind. He went to Harvard and earned big bucks. So yes I do wonder why he's had such bad luck.

ALL the d's are single now...all 4 girls are divorced or never married...May what are the odds??

The neighbor & "long suffering wife" was a Radcliff grad. She knew she had the "right" to be hurt/mad. I assume she had no role model for forgiveness.

What she didn't realize is the damage SHE was doing to her children & her life.

But from where I sat, years later, all I saw was a bitter angry woman who never let anyone admire or openly love her h. I preferred HIM to her and so did their kids...but how conflicted they must have been.

That woman never let go of the fact that he had deeply hurt her and she did NOT make an attempt to warm the bed for him to return either. She chose to stay and be miserable in her anger.

I knew as a teenager that her choice (Stay Married and Stay Mad) had to have been the worst one to make...
for her, for him, for the kids...

Bear that in mind when you contemplate your mother's example, and her and your aunt's lives -

and how you MIGHT be repeating that for your d, if you stay married AND stay angry...so

Either you stay & learn to cope and let it go, OR you leave him

and learn to cope and let it go...

see the commonality? Either way, you learn to cope better and let it go.

You do not get to hold this over his head forever, like the sword of Damacles.

You don't get to throw it in his face every time you are angry, or hit him every time a memory resurfaces in you, or when you think you "should" be angry...

You don't get to pass this on as your legacy to your d...INSTEAD

you get to break the cycle for her and for you...more later on how.

And we'll address the lying too. For now I'll pass on one comment the priest who married us, made. He said:

"Deceit is never heatlhy for a m, but neither is giving your spouse a reason to deceive by how you react to bad news. If your w dents the car and you just blast her for it, you can expect that the next time it happens she'll get it fixed and maybe never mention it to you...b/c of the way you reacted the first time OR how she expects you to react. Would she really be so wrong?"


May, knowing what NOT to do and what NOT to act like, helped me.

I think it's a start.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:30 AM
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

The harsh truth is, that even though you feel this way, and it is justified, if you can't let it go, it will end this marriage.

You do need to decide if it is something you can let go of, or just feel get it out of your system and move on in a happier state in your M.

i think you need to give yourself time, but the rest of your M can not go on like this. YOU cannot go on like this.

Can't tell you how to work through the anger, or process it, or whatever.

Think though, if you remove yourself from H, does it go away? Or is it still there blinding you?

I hate to say it, because it does become a choice at some point how you let the anger affect you. I'm angry. Still. I just not to let it affect me and the relationships in my life.


Herein lies the problem. I am aware that it is taking me over. I'm in so much physical and emotional pain. I have a major migraines DAILY. I know I can't go on like this much longer. Mentally and physically. I'm surprised I still have teeth I've been grinding so hard.

I would love to let it go. I would. BUT HOW THE F*CK DO I DO THAT?!?! Can ANYONE answer that? Other than time? And saying "yes, I'd like to let go". What can I DO? I'm already going to counseling. I'm already on drugs. I'm *trying* to take care of myself, but honestly, just getting up, showering, and going to work is pretty remarkable at this point. I'm pretty proud of that feat on a weekday basis (weekends... that's another story).

Originally Posted By: Endeavour


I understand your anger. I've done far too much reading about affairs in the 7 1/2 months since I discovered my H's. Suffice it to say, what I've learned is that regardless of whether it's a PA or an EA, the fallout is the same. The journey to healing follows the same path (and it's never linear), as it does when you are dealing with a death. In many ways, it is a death. The death of who you thought your spouse was and the death of your old marriage. Sadness, depression, anger....they are all part of the journey.

My journey has not been perfect. In many ways, I felt like a failure as a DB'er because many times my anger would get the best of me. There were many days when I wanted to throw in the towel and be done with the whole darn mess. I'm sure there will be many more days like that....

I thought I was failing because sometimes I was the one who wanted to quit.

But what I realized is that I just wanted an escape from the pain. And I was angry at everything I had to deal with...

But whether I'm in my M or I leave. I can't get away from the pain. It has to be dealt with...

Just like the anger.

I wondered it I had it in me to forgive. I picked up a book on forgiveness called "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrams Spring

And I realized that there is a big difference between cheap forgiveness and genuine forgiveness. The later takes longer and the path is not always easy. I read something recently about a woman who said the journey to forgiving her H for abandoning her and cheating on her, did not happen overnight. It happened in stops and starts, and in hills and valleys. Until one day, she was there but she wasn't quite sure how she had gotten to that place. BUT she had forgiven because she started by simply making the choice to start down that path. That helped me realize that I had to stop putting pressure on myself. I needed to stop thinking I was bad or wrong or somehow not good enough because I was not there yet.

After one of my angry outbursts, I decided I would try harder to contain my anger. That expressing it was not helping us with our recovery. Weeks later, my husband asked if I was purposely holding back on expressing my anger. I said yes. And he said, "I don't want you to not be afraid to express your anger. I want you to be able to talk to me. You have every right to be angry. I made poor decisions that hurt you and our kids and if I was you I would be very angry. I know you are going to be very angry for a long time and that's okay."

And there it was...

It was okay to be angry.


You can't simply decide to stop being angry. At least I don't think you can and not have resentment pop up years down the road. But you can choose how to express that anger.

I haven't read your entire thread so I have no idea if you've ever sat down with your husband and told him exactly why you're angry.

I wrote myself an email listing everything that made me angry about my situation. Everything I felt I had lost. Just got it out on paper.

I find somedays the anger is there and other days it is not. I imagine someday in the future, I will think about what happened to us and I may always be sad for what was lost but someday maybe it will stop stinging quite so much.


Thank you. Oh my God, thank you. This is what I'm talking about when I said, "I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed" I want H to be OK with me being pissed. I wish I could get a speech like that from my H saying that he knows he f*cked up and that it's ok to be angry and he wants me to get it all out. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it appears he simply cannot handle me being in a weak position. He couldn't handle it when I to have my gallbladder taken out (tried everything he could to convince me not to do the surgery), couldn't handle me being pregnant, and now cannot handle me being incapacitated by depression.

I like your analogy to death. I had told him that once. I said, "H, it's like you died. Do you not understand that? I feel like you died."

Maybe I should approach it from that aspect. I feel like there's more research on how to deal with death than on forgiveness. Maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places. I'll look at that book too.

I like the email list idea. I'm a lists person.

I'm just so tired of hurting.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:44 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc



"Deceit is never heatlhy for a m, but neither is giving your spouse a reason to deceive by how you react to bad news. If your w dents the car and you just blast her for it, you can expect that the next time it happens she'll get it fixed and maybe never mention it to you...b/c of the way you reacted the first time OR how she expects you to react. Would she really be so wrong?"


May, knowing what NOT to do and what NOT to act like, helped me.

I think it's a start.



I like this a lot. I guess we were posting at the same time. I most definitely know what this means (and I most definitely used that principle when interacting with my mother a lot as a teen).

I really wish I could go to EE. I do. But NONE are near me geographically. Just getting there would be over 300 dollar (usually closer to 500 from what I've researched). Then the cost of a hotel. Then the cost of the workshop itself. It's a considerable expense, and given that H is already pissed off at me for my spending habits, I doubt that this would make the situation better.

I've brought up a weekend thing like Retrouvaille too, but he is less than enthusiastic. Any suggestions on how to twist his arm into it?
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:52 AM
You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:55 AM
May, don't twist his arm. There is a huge power imbalance in your R.

You need to take your power back and he needs to be okay with vulnerability.

Sorry. I'm just gonna say it!
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: ESN
You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.


100% correct on that. A lot of this would be better if he would just come clean and let me be at peace. At one point he had taken responsibility, but that was when I did not know more of the truth. Now that I know more of the truth, all of the sudden it's not his fault anymore. And I'm not ok with that.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: ESN
May, don't twist his arm. There is a huge power imbalance in your R.

You need to take your power back and he needs to be okay with vulnerability.

Sorry. I'm just gonna say it!


Sorry, I meant to be kinda smarta$$ with that (although, truly, I'd like to go). Clearly he's gonna do what he wants to do. And at this moment, what he wants is not to bend over backwards to make me happy.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:17 AM
re EE there is no housing cost...but I thought you were on the east coast...anyhow

as for Retrovaille, if you can get him there, it'll help. No one is "harmed" by it. And I am not so sure he would not go. There's no blasting of the spouse. If he knows it is for "better communication" maybe he wont' feel so pressured or on the spot.

Or is it you wanting him to be on the spot? I'm sincerely asking May...

And as far as DETERMINING whether there was a PA, how are you going to KNOW?

If it's over (and I feel fairly confident nothing is going on now)

then you think he'll fess up now when he knows 1) how YOU react (which you learned from your mom)?

And

2) when you keep saying it's a deal breaker,

(b/c your dad did it to your mom...and gee, no baggage there...)

Geez, I doubt I'd fess up.

So you can hire a forensic accountant or a PI I guess...is that what you want to do with your energy?

You have to decide that maybe you are NOT going to "KNOW", and if that is the case are you going to end the m?

What is it he's supposed to feel bad about now, IF the EA he admitted to having is over, and he admitted it and DID apologize...is it that it wasn't enough for you or

you want it to happen again? I mean you want him to keep apologizing?

OR to seem to suffer more?

You already know he's depressed.

Why can't you believe some of that is related to his remorse over the past year?

Some men, my h included, think ONE apology for a wrong is totally sufficient if it's sincere.

Besides, maybe your h feels you withdrawing love/affection from him, which makes him less motivated to reach out and get zapped again, I guess.

Thing that keeps coming up for me is his family crap.

They don't forgive either and your family doesn't...so why would he expect to be able to be honest with you if he's made a mistake?-

MAYBE-

If he never saw forgiveness from you, he won't believe you can give it or that he can get it...


and that

makes almost all conflicts a lot harder to resolve, b/c being wrong is pretty much a fatal blow to the relationship

May, thoughts?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:18 AM
I would ask him to go to Retrovaille

b/c it cannot hurt, it can help a lot, and you want to leave no stone unturned

and this isn't about a power struggle.

It's about getting tools for repairing a damaged marriage, which you both need.

Doesn't matter to me why he goes, what matters is what he learns...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:27 AM
Sweetie, now we're getting somewhere. Whether anyone here thinks this is okay or that you should give up or not. This is reality. This is the truth. And it's good to acknowledge it.

B/c what did change - as 25 keeps asking - from before to now is that you found [censored] on his computer.

You want to know more. Whether it's your inner child or whatever, I see this drive in your and I see you're not going to be satisfied until you have some evidence or truth or acknowledgement - and right now you're in a delusion.

Again, you can "let go"

But this is really where it comes down to being in your own power and trusting you. What do you need? Want? Those are questions that you have to be able to address here.

You may "Want" to let go, but do you need him to acknowledge something in order to move on?

Honor your feelings, May. They are your inner wisdom trying to guide you. You're trying to push them away with meds and all kinds of numbing or whatever - anger/rage - but see that they are here to alert you of something.

If he did have a PA. You know. It's on the table. and you have a choice. You have a choice now - you don't HAVE TO KNOW. But I think I see that you want to be with something known, and are uncomfortable with that unknown and it's going to keep playing out -

Again, not what people are telling you to do - but I don't see you doing it. So why keep rehashing?



Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Originally Posted By: ESN
You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.


100% correct on that. A lot of this would be better if he would just come clean and let me be at peace. At one point he had taken responsibility, but that was when I did not know more of the truth. Now that I know more of the truth, all of the sudden it's not his fault anymore. And I'm not ok with that.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:30 AM
P.S. I agree with 25, but think about what you want to see happen - find out more? Knowing he may not admit? Leave the M?

Either way is fine with me! Meaning, I don't have an agenda. If you think you should leave the M, I'm all for it. You need to trust you -

I don't think DBing is about staying and pretending ...

You got a big gut thing going on here. Get still, May. Ask yourself what you think really happened? You probably already know. Even if your H isn't going to be honest. It may not be the answer you think - or it might. But listen to your own wisdom.

And then figure out what baby step you need to take next.

I think doing little things is going to help address the anger, empower you, and help you process your emotions.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 02:45 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Brilliant post Endeavor...

I wondered how you two were doing. Did you go to Retrovaille?




Thank you, 25. I also hear your words in my ear often, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" Truthfully, I'd like to be both but I'm going with happy. wink

And yes, we did attend Retrovaille, as well as all the post sessions which were less than a 10 minute drive from our house. Hello, Universe! We have been too busy to attend the monthly potlucks (date night for us) but we have plans to attend in the future as it would be wonderful to see the couples and presenters from our weekend again. I think I did post on our Retrovaille experience sometime last year....not entirely sure though.

Anyway, May, I didn't think my H would ever attend Retrovaille in a million years. And that lovely little speech he gave me about expressing my anger, which I admit was indeed wonderful, was probably not something I would have heard last year, or even 5 months ago. It took him a while to get there and many conversations. Retrovaille indeed helped him get "it" a little more. Our homework from Retro helped too, as well as information from the numerous books we ordered on infidelity. More on that later, but I do recall sending my H a post on Retrovaille that 25 wrote. I also told him a bit about her and her H and what they went through. He was inspired. He actually signed us up for Retrovaille and handled all the arrangements. I would have fallen over if someone would have told me he would have done that last year.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 03:14 AM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay


Thank you. Oh my God, thank you. This is what I'm talking about when I said, "I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed" I want H to be OK with me being pissed. I wish I could get a speech like that from my H saying that he knows he f*cked up and that it's ok to be angry and he wants me to get it all out. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it appears he simply cannot handle me being in a weak position. He couldn't handle it when I to have my gallbladder taken out (tried everything he could to convince me not to do the surgery), couldn't handle me being pregnant, and now cannot handle me being incapacitated by depression.

I like your analogy to death. I had told him that once. I said, "H, it's like you died. Do you not understand that? I feel like you died."

Maybe I should approach it from that aspect. I feel like there's more research on how to deal with death than on forgiveness. Maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places. I'll look at that book too.

I like the email list idea. I'm a lists person.

I'm just so tired of hurting.


May, I completely get it. I didn't post on DB for months because I was SO angry. So filled with rage that I felt it physically as pain. I recall one day as I was on my way to work being so filled with rage that my body was vibrating. It's all so unfair I kept thinking! He stole my choices. And the crazy ow in my case thought it was unfair to her because she waited for him. She actually left a message saying, "It's so unfair to me! I waited for you!". That still pisses me off. She waited?! I've been living with this man as his W for 18 years, we have two children and she was some side-ho for a year, and it's unfair to her? Trust me, I understand crazy angry rage all too well.

When I first tried to talk to my H about how angry I was, he would get angry and defensive because he was embarrassed. And he felt guilty. Of course, I didn't know this at first and his anger would make me even madder.

I was one angry scorned woman.

I had a crazy freak-out over my H suggesting we go to a burger joint on date night. I know. Ridiculous. In my angry mind, he was suggesting that I wasn't worth a nice dinner. I've never reacted so insanely to anything so silly like that in my life. He was looking at me like I had lost my mind. And in that moment, I truly had. I can't even remember what I screamed at him but something about, "Is that where you took your low class skank? Do you think I'm some kind of low class skank?" Yes, a cuckoo for cocoa puffs Endeavour moment.

I knew I needed some help so I started reading. A lot. There's a lot of information out there and there's actually a "rage, anger" phase that betrayed spouses go through. Apparently, it's one of the hardest phases of the journey. Triggers are fun too. Those emails triggered you and brought back all the pain, uncertainty and feelings of loss of control you felt in your sitch. Get rid of the triggers.

And the first thing they suggest is NO CONTACT with the A partner. EVER. Every book I've read on the subject says this is key. And from what you discovered in those letters, she was an EA or at the very least talking very inappropriately to a married man so he needs to go no contact with this woman or it will trigger you. My H had no problem agreeing to this because his ex-ow was a nut. However, he foolishly contacted her again when she began sending me ridiculous articles on helping kids through divorce. He didn't tell me and I discovered it. Yes, he contacted her to tell her to stop but we should have discussed it first so it triggered me all over again. I started wondering if they had secretly been in contact. Betrayal does crazy things to your mind. (Read articles on that as well). Now, there is no contact in place in the form of a C&D but that's a whole other post.

As for feeling like your H has died, that is covered in "After the Affair" I believe and it's so true. In the months following D-day, my H even commented that sometimes he caught me looking at him like he was a ghost and in some ways, sadly, he was a ghost to me.

I found a post written by a betrayed spouse who describes the betrayal as a death. (I will try to find it and post it because I know we can't include links.) I sent it to my H and told him this described my feelings. Sometimes this is what I do instead of bringing things up during the times we spend together having fun or enjoying each others company. I will email him an article or a post that resonates with me. He will respond with a sentence or two and sometimes we will discuss it briefly in person but we don't dwell. It works for us.

I will look for that post on death and betrayal...
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 03:48 AM
Below is some of the post I was referring to above. It's written by a man whose wife had an affair. They are still together, recovered and very happy. His post came about after a conversation he had with his wife and he posted to help the wayward spouse understand what their spouse might be feeling.

Yes, it's a bit dramatic but it many ways it resonated with me. Ironically, my H who has gone through moments of intense grief over what he has done has said many times that he killed the old him with his A. My daughter expressed a similar sentiment to me one night. That in her mind, her old father is dead and now she has a new one that she doesn't quite know yet. Equating death and betrayal seems to be a common theme for many...

"I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can’t express it. When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.

But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren’t! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse’s cherished love. You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murderer (the OM/OW) and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.

And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU? They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you. Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?

Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read “Just Let Them Go” even if they want to reconcile. Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife."


May, I do get it, it's all unfair. It [censored]. Your pregnancy and the birth of your daughter was not as you imagined and that would make me angry too.

But as 25 says, what we deal with is not Africa unfair.

That reminds me to be grateful for what I do have. It's not perfect but not much in life is anyway.

Anyway, I will have more to share later on talking about the details of the EA but I have to call it a night for now but please know, that your anger will get better. But it won't happen overnight. Often, I try to remember that underneath my anger, is sadness and fear and pain.

And in my truly lucid deep moments, I think to myself if I can get through this, I can get through anything. My H also knows that strike two and he's out. I go through this once. That gives me some peace and some control and in the end, that's the only person that we can control.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 03:55 AM
[quote=ESN]Sweetie, now we're getting somewhere. Whether anyone here thinks this is okay or that you should give up or not. This is reality. This is the truth. And it's good to acknowledge it.

B/c what did change - as 25 keeps asking - from before to now is that you found [censored] on his computer.


Just so I'm clear, it's my understanding that May recently FOUND things on the computer from earlier, NOT that he'd written them recently or about things that happened recently,

But that she found them recently.

As far as I know, which Is why I'm asking, the only "new" event was his trying to give OW the tickets back

which he admitted doing and that it was stupid.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/22/12 04:05 AM
May

as Endeavor says, the knowldege that this is a one time deal CAN help you feel safer or more empowered.
Endeavor wrote:


And in my truly lucid deep moments, I think to myself if I can get through this, I can get through anything. My H also knows that strike two and he's out. I go through this once. That gives me some peace and some control and in the end, that's the only person that we can control.


This makes me feels strong b/c I KNOW something i didn't know before, which is that I can survive, and yes be happy, with or without my h.

You could try again with your h and not risk "it all". You can know that no matter what HE does, you will be alright. How?

Well, I know I do not plan on being in that hideous position again, like Endeavor says, this was for me a one time deal...

if h freaked again or had an A, I'd be done & gone. No 2nd thoughts and no regrets.

As Oprah would say, "This is what I'm sure of...."
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 02:08 AM
There is so much, and I sincerely doubt I'll be able to address all of your responses, so please forgive me if I miss key points or things that people are specifically concerned about.

Yeah, I guess I've never stated my geographical location. I hail from the Big D. Everything really is bigger here wink I think the only thing that blatantly gives it away when I encounter someone is my use of the word "y'all".

Yes, I realize he's done nothing new... but the things that bothers me is the hiding. I mean, maybe I'm stupid, but I believed him when he said NOTHING happened. So it was like discovering something new that I didn't know about... because I really did not know about it. He would have blown a complete gasket if he found conversations like that in my email. I had to rid myself of male friends early in our relationship because he just couldn't handle it (and I had a LOT). But I gave them up at the time because I thought he was worth it. I wanted to make him feel comfortable. So I ditched them.

But I would NEVER have had conversations like I found with any of them.

Thank you for reminding me, 25, of his depression. It's like the blind leading the blind right now. We're both a mess. It's really, really hard to remember that.

I feel like a jerk for it, but as a T, I would HATE it when they would give me substance abuse clients. I very much felt like "um, they got themselves into this mess. I have very little sympathy".

That's kind of where I'm at with H's struggling. Don't be a douche. You wouldn't be feeling like this had you not been a huge douche.

But I know that kind of thinking won't get me anywhere either. And I know I have a tongue that can cut to the bone and I have used it multiple times on H. I don't use names (despite me calling him names on here), but I do have a special talent for making people feel about 3 inches tall. I don't unleash it often, but I've been told when I do, it's justified (and this is from the people who received the lashing, usually). I know this doesn't help the situation.

I don't know how to handle people who stick their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't happening. I can see H shutting down when I ask questions. It's his escape behavior.

When a child exhibits escape behavior at work, I just wait it out. Literally. For hours sometimes. Eventually they realize "this woman is NOT gonna give it up" and they cave.

But I know I'm not at work. I know he's not a child (although sometimes I wonder....). 25 has said it before. In some ways, my occupation makes hurts my situation more. I'm really good at my job. So NOT using the skills that make me awesome at my job is REALLY hard. And it makes me feel REALLY out of control. Which I hate.

Maybe I should email that thing to H about him being his own murderer. He seems to do better with text than in person. I know I do. Maybe it hurts him to see me fall apart.

He still won't cry in MC. Even though I can see it pooling up in his eyes. He will not show that emotion. And I don't know why. He was never that "men don't cry" guy.

I'm rambling.

He's in LA. Again. He left this morning. He'll be back Friday morning. I'm not happy about it, but he made a lot of effort to kiss me several times before leaving. I ran a 5k with D in the stroller this morning. It was nice to do that for myself.

Oh, and 25, I know I'll never REALLY know. It drives me crazy. If I could just know, I would feel so much better, even if I found out there was a PA. Then at least I would know the truth, and I could make a clear decision. It would be much more objective for me at that point. Because if this man can sleep with another woman while I'm pregnant because he can't stand me being in a vulnerable position, what will happen if I get cancer? When I have to deal with my parents dying? What will he do if our child gets sick? I know I can't be with someone who can't stand by my side in worst of situations.

So even if there was a PA, I want to know. So I can just cut the cord and be done. But I know I'll never really know.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 02:18 AM
DIM... how would you counsel someone who was dealing with anger?
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 03:42 AM
That's the thing: my gut tells me he slept with her.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 01:48 PM
DIM, Gabby's mom is spot on here.

And I will add. Again, that the truth will come out. It's whether you want to see it. From the sound of it, you already know it. Why are you covering it up?

Martha Beck talks about this in her new book - our Rhinos. We all have them. We have to face a Rhino at least once in our life, and our brain tells us it's going to kill us. Dead meat. But what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. Stronger than you can ever imagine.

Your emotions are there for a reason. You said it yourself you can't ignore them - even on meds. Even trying to push them away. And yet you talk about your H pushing HIS emotions away. Is that just pure projection?

(BTW, if you look up Apathy in the same book I mentioned - the Language of Emotions, you'll see it's the flipside of expressing anger). This is SUCH a common dynamic, especially in codependent relationships - you expressing, him repressing.

And when you feel like the "blind leading the blind" or that he's younger. He is. You both are acting out childhood stuff right now- all over the place.

Who is going to be in the adult place in charge of the show? (Do you know how to switch into your adult space and talk to the inner child)? It can help.

I say none of this to judge you but to put language to some of what you're describing to maybe help clarify some things.

But back to what GM is saying - you KNOW everything you need to know. You need the strength, the space, the fortitude and courage to deal with it.

My intuition told me from my first date PRECISELY what would happen with my Ex. I knew one day he would walk away saying "I can't do this anymore." And he did, three years later and a child together.

Trust what you know. And decide from that place of inner knowing what you need to do next.

We're all here for you.

Your wisdom is going to keep screaming at you and getting louder and louder - whether through more anger, more panic attacks, or more lash-outs, etc. until you stop and listen to what it needs to do/say.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 01:51 PM
P.S., I know b/c this is a DBing forum, many will rush to your side to say they survived an affair, it can be done, you can do it to, you can "let go," etc. That's great - there is a lot of support. IN EITHER DIRECTION.

But ultimately you have to be the one to make the choice about what you know. You have this power, May. And it will teach you to trust yourself for the rest of your days.

Step back into your power and stop being a victim of the unknown. Know what you know. And decide what to do with your life and your marriage.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 06:42 PM
Just one more thing from me regarding handling negative emotions, DIM...

Where perhaps you buried them in the past... or handled them in a less than healthy way... and yes... they will come up from time to time...

Not sure what your beliefs are regarding the human condition of being able to spontaneously modify one's emotions...

IF this is something that you consider accurate... you might practice changing your emotions on demand...

and secondly...

allocate specific (and appropriate) times and places to have your moments of sad... angry... frustrated...

what ever you need to work through and release those emotions... with a maximum time per "session" so that you don't go through your day in those negative emotions...

I used to do that at night, when I was by myself... those were the times I really allowed those emotions out which eventually lead to those emotions not erupting at inappropriate times...

and I knew those emotions were released over the specific context when I would try to get myself into the negative emotion... and there was nothing more... no more tears... no more anger... no more fear...

As always... just a thought...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 07:04 PM
DIM, love what KD says here, you can read about this (sorry to keep drilling in this book) in Language of Emotions - she teaches you how to process your emotions, burn old contracts, strengthen your boundary, etc. All *within your own boundary* - so you feel the feelings and move through them without repressing or expressing outward (to others).

I know people who carry this book around like a bible. It's just a great reference to have on hand.

And it's a good way too to practice just being alone and processing and even starting to ask your intuition/self, what you need to do next, etc. rather than coming from a reactive place or looking outside yourself.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 08:29 PM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
That's the thing: my gut tells me he slept with her.


no offense but if this is all, then wth are we telling May "TO DO"?

I'm tempted to say "so what that your GUT tells ou this" when you admit you have major childhood issues with this exact subject matter.

Ever think of that?

And as GM says, even if he had a PA, which HE DENIES and which YOU HAVE NO PROOF Of

he sure doesn't sound like he wants another round of this "Stuff"...

He sounds like he doesn't believe YOU can get past whatever this is,

including the fact that he wigged out during your pregnancy. I mean that is the one thing we are all agreed on; he screwed up while she was pregnant and was a jerk at that time.

And May, if the truth is that you cannot get past that, then move on in your life.

I won't defend you not getting past it, or attack it, but I will call you on it.

You don't know if he had a PA and until recently you thought he had not. Things were looking up. You found OLD stuff that made it sound like a hotter EA (b/c i don't recall the wording I am assuming no actual evidence of intercourse)

and let's face it...

Him having a PA sounds like a better reason for YOU to leave him, than saying 'he wrecked my pregnancy"...
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
That's the thing: my gut tells me he slept with her.


May, is it your gut or your fear that tells you that?

I will say that from what I've read EA + opportunity = PA

But you know what, in dealing with all this, for me it's not the PA that hurts the most or causes the most damage, it's the lies and deceit.


Whether your H had an EA or a PA it's going to take time to trust him again. His actions are going to speak a whole lot louder than his words. Is he trying? I think he he from what you've posted, he is...

Yes, you guys had a set-back but there are going to be ups and downs. That's part of piecing. The emails were a shock but I think they only confirmed what you already feared and that's why you reacted so strongly.

As for wanting the whole story of his EA, if you want it, you're going to have to make it safe for him to tell you the truth. My H wanted to tell me the truth for months (OW was threatening to tell me to keep him in the A) but he was afraid because he wanted our M and he didn't want to lose me (I know, where was this "choosiness" when he met her). Anyway, I remember telling my H when he was vacillating back and forth like a madman between our M and D, that if he was involved in an A to just let me know because if he was, he could have his D. When I said that, I meant it. Then I started reading the forums and many of the books recommended on the forums and I started to wonder if I needed to own my stuff more.

I will say that if we had been in a good M and H had a PA, I would have gone to D but our M was bad and I knew it, so that was something to think about. Something to work on.

Yes, I was one of those people who said a PA was my dealbreaker (and who knows maybe it still is...).

But you know what, I don't want to look back one day and think maybe we could have fixed this...

Also, I've read enough infidelity boards to realize that none of us have a crystal ball. There are some M's dealing with infidelity after 30 years. I'm guessing many of those spouses never saw it coming. You could get into another M and your spouse could turn out to be a serial cheater, and you don't find this out until 10-20 years in. Sadly, I've read about that disturbing revelation far too often.

At least with your H, you know what you're dealing with to some extent. He's a flawed man, but aren't we all?

If you want more details concerning his A, write down all your questions (this is what I did) and then really think about those questions. Will the answers help you heal or will they keep you stuck? If a week later, you still want those answers, then ask.

But be prepared for the truth.

The EA or the PA or whatever it was, happened. You can't change the past. Believe me, I wish I could. And my H's wishes he could and I believe him.

I think the most important questions are "Is he remorseful?" and "WHY?". Why did it happen? My H and spent a lot of time discussing the "whys" because once you know the "whys", you have a good place to start. For my H and I, we needed to deal with conflict better and take our egos out of it. I needed to show him more affection, he needed to meet my needs and not only be concerned with his own, and we needed to ML more often. There's more but that's an overview. Anyway, now we know what we need to do to make sure our M doesn't reach a crisis point again. We each have a responsibility in changing things about ourselves to make the M better.

Understanding the "whys" does not mean you are responsible for his EA. That was his decision alone. You own your half of the M problems and he owns his, but the decision to have an EA was a decision he made on his own.

I have no idea whether my H and I will make it but I'm going to do the work and find out. Somedays I don't feel like doing the work, I admit, but then I often think about what one of our MC's said about kids and marriage. He said they're not the reason you should stay in M that isn't working, but they're a darn good reason to try fixing it.

May, I don't think you should make any decisions in the heat of the moment or based on emotions (isn't that what the WAS does?). We all know feelings change. I've read that after you've been betrayed, you should hold off making a decision about the M for 6 months because you're too emotional during that time period and may change your mind later. Some experts recommend a year. During that time, you get your M in the best shape possible and then if you still decide to leave, at least you can look back and have no regrets.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 10:02 PM
This^^^ is a great post.

(No doubt I'll quote from it for my posts to others-but I will attribute it to YOU!).

Thank you, Endeavor...
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/23/12 10:03 PM
Right. This is what I've been saying all along.

I'm suspecting she can't get past it. So why are we all telling her she should "let go"?

Clearly she's not letting go. But we'll keep trying to talk her out of it ...

For the sake of the marriage...

Which I don't get.

Especially in light of the fact that she seems to want a reason to leave him.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
That's the thing: my gut tells me he slept with her.





And May, if the truth is that you cannot get past that, then move on in your life.

I won't defend you not getting past it, or attack it, but I will call you on it.

You don't know if he had a PA and until recently you thought he had not. Things were looking up. You found OLD stuff that made it sound like a hotter EA (b/c i don't recall the wording I am assuming no actual evidence of intercourse)

and let's face it...

Him having a PA sounds like a better reason for YOU to leave him, than saying 'he wrecked my pregnancy"...
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 12:15 AM
Originally Posted By: ESN
Right. This is what I've been saying all along.

I'm suspecting she can't get past it. So why are we all telling her she should "let go"?

Clearly she's not letting go. But we'll keep trying to talk her out of it ...

For the sake of the marriage...

Which I don't get.

Especially in light of the fact that she seems to want a reason to leave him.


ESN, no one is trying to talk May out of anything nor into anything. We are telling her to step back, breath and consider her choices before making any decisions in the heat of the moment.

We are sharing our experiences because that's what we all do on this forum. We share, we learn and hopefully we grow.

In the end, May will do what is best for her and that's all any of us want.

If she wants to leave him, she will.

When I discovered my H's PA, I recall that 25 posted that if I couldn't get past it, she would not judge, that it was okay because not everyone can.

As I said, I'm sure not 100% convinced I can but I'm taking the advice I've learned here on DB as well, as information I've learned from reading other sources, and I'm doing my best to not rush into any decision I may later regret.

I'm letting May know what worked for me. If it doesn't work for her, I am not dependant on the outcome.

When I first read her story, I thought her H was a jerk. I mean who leaves a pregnant woman?! There's got to be some man code against that, right? But we don't know who he is now. We don't live with him.

People change.

And if they don't....then why are any of us here?
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 01:49 AM
Lots of good posts. I'm sure I will miss responding to someone or something, so if I leave a stone unturned, I apologize. Just lemme know.

KD, I'm actually pretty crappy when it comes to helping client with anger. Well... let me rephrase... I think I'm good with helping people with logical fallacies and helping arguing against their irrational thoughts (I'm really REBT/CBT oriented when it comes to talk therapy). But for people who have like, genuinely super sh!tty things happen to them, like a rape, or a death, I'm not that great. I was pigeon-holed into the personality disordered people who just chronically felt angry.

So that was a long winded way to say, "I don't know what I would tell a client in this situation".

And 25, thank you for doing your L thing and reminding me that, no, I don't have any hardcore evidence that there was a PA (didn't find them in bed, or any hotel bills with both their names on them or anything). I have a lot of circumstantial BS. Which yes, make things look really, really bad. But no, no hard evidence, and both he and OW say nothing physical happened (other than the drunk kiss and the inappropriate internet convos). So yeah, if this were brought to trial, I doubt I would have a leg to stand on.

And yes, I will admit, if I were to leave, leaving him for a PA is a lot stronger than leaving him because he "ruined" my pregnancy. And based on my belief that there are very few valid reasons to D (other than, in my opinion, a PA and abuse), yeah, if I were to leave, I'd need a pretty damn good reason.

So while I'm currently really miserable, unless one of those two criteria are met, I will not ask for a D.

And ESN, it's not like I don't want to get over it. I want to get over the anger. But it's taking me a while. Really, I was feeling a lot better about the whole ruined pregnancy thing until I found those chats (and oh my God it made me so angry to see he was having one RIGHT IN FRONT of me as I'm lying in the hospital bed with our newborn), but right now I'm angry about the lying. I understand that the EA is over and done with, but he perpetuated the lie. And supposedly he's come clean, but I'll never really know for sure.

But yes, if he's had a PA, I want to D him. Because I know there are still times that I look at my dad and think, "you are one of the most moral people I've ever met, so how could you possibly have done that to our family?" He's also one of the most emotionally retarded people I've ever met. But that's another tangent....

Which goes back to what 25 was saying about my own childhood issues. Yes, my mind is clouded on this subject. I'm probably more paranoid about this than your average person given my personal history. Oh, I remember how angry it made me last spring when H said, "nothing is going on! She has a boyfriend!" and I said, "that doesn't f-ing matter! My dad had an A with a woman who was MARRIED... who lived in ANOTHER COUNTRY!!" Then the look of realization came over H's face.

I don't know what I can or cannot get past with the given information. If nothing else comes to light, I believe I can eventually get past it. If I find more lies....

Then I just don't know....

So, Endeavor, I don't know if it's my gut or my fear. Clearly the fear is very real and very present.

Last night was a really rough night. H left for LA. D had been grouchy all day (poor thing sprouted 4 teeth last weekend and they're still pushing through). And then I was going over my current draft of my thesis and realized it's complete and total crap. I hate it. I sent an email to my mentor telling her I thought it was crap and would not be surprised if she's as disappointed in it as I am. We recently made some changes and if stick to the changes, I would have to scrap a lot of the work I've already put into it and do a bunch of new writing. Oh, and if I haven't shown significant progress by the end of the semester, they will probably kick me out of the program (I was supposed to graduate in August of 2009).

So I'm a little stressed.

H was considerate enough to call me tonight, even for a few minutes. I texted periodically with him this morning. I brought up Retrouvaille. I inquired for more information for the one in my area and sent the link to H. He said he didn't want to talk in front of people, but I told him I didn't think it necessarily worked like that. I also assured him it's not overly religious. He said he might go, but wanted to know more about it first. Any suggestions for what I can tell him or should I just wait for the local people to contact me? If we went, it wouldn't be until late July (I think we JUST missed one).

I think seeing as H is out of town until Friday morning, I'll make that list of questions. Endeavor, what were some of the questions that you asked, if you don't mind me being nosy? I have SO many it's a little overwhelming. I know from being a T that you have to be careful how you ask questions especially questions that start with "why". And I feel that's the majority of my questions currently. Why her? Why then? Why did you lie? Why did you hide? Why didn't you talk to me? Why, why, why?

When H called, as we were about to hang up, I said (without thinking) "ok, have a good night, I love you"

This was the first time I've said that to him in probably 2 weeks. It was just instinctual.

But without hesitation he said, "I love you too. Meow"

(Don't ask me why he meows. It's something he's always done. It's almost his equivalent of I love you. At the beginning of the relationship he did it, and I reciprocated, and he was so happy, and it's just stuck. He also pushed my nose about a month into dating, and I said "meeep!". I still do that, almost 9 years later. My D has started doing it to me and thinks it's hilarious.)

I booked a local park for D's birthday today. May 19th. I can't believe it's less than a month away. And then 2 weeks later, I'll be out for summer break.

Lord knows I need the break.
Posted By: ESN Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 03:24 AM
Endeavor, good earlier post. And I think what you said about the remorse is key. I was trying to recall that earlier.

When I found out my ex-bf was having an EA and also regularly looking at porn (and we were sexually estranged, though I was not happy about it), he was anything but remorseful. He was pretty damn proud - like he'd found a way to hurt me. No idea why, but I read at the time that this was key - in an EA/PA for the offended to be able to forgive. Of course, you can forgive without it, but May's sitch is so murky - he's denying stuff, they're not talking about it, etc.

I think more what I meant earlier was the likelihood of her forgetting about it and letting it go seemed slim since there were so many questions left unanswered, and that it seemed at the very least, she wanted answers, but b/c she didn't I didn't see that as her letting go - does that make sense?

You had both answers *and* remorse, and now an understanding H. Not that that makes it any easier, but I trust that would make it much more possible for May.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 10:11 AM
Originally Posted By: ESN
Endeavor, good earlier post. And I think what you said about the remorse is key. I was trying to recall that earlier.

When I found out my ex-bf--- in an EA/PA for the offended to be able to forgive. Of course, you can forgive without it, but May's sitch is so murky - he's denying stuff, they're not talking about it, etc.

Sure it's murky. But He did not deny any type of r before. They DID talk about it and I'd bet anything that in his mind, they had put it to rest & resolved it. And He did feel remorse and made gestures to show it. Go back to the November post to read the tremendous amount of hope in their situation then.

The ONLY thing that has changed is that she recently discovered more about THAT PERIOD OF TIME, which he did not completely disclose to her (past lies about a past event) and which still does not prove there was more physically.

Given how he thinks she feels about affairs, (which she says is an absolute dealbreaker) I cannot imagine him fessing up to a physical affair IF there was one...so there is no "knowing" that is likely in this situation ever.
I'm surprised he even admitted to kissing b/c he knows they'd be done forever for a full blown A.

He does not want that

but he also does not want to be in the doghouse forever for something from the past...and then lying about the past that is over, b/c he fears her present day anger.....I don't find that impossible to comprehend-given the expected penalty.



I think more what I meant earlier was the likelihood of her forgetting about it and letting it go

Extremely unlikely. Did someone suggest she "forget" it? I didn't see that anywhere.

As for letting go, when I say to let it go, I mean that pain and anger are not things to hold onto for life.

May, think about this.

Holding onto the pain and anger of your father's betrayal is what your mother and aunt did, which is a cycle you said you don't want to repeat.


Please take into consideration the theoretical possibility that you are creating some of this very thing...and that you have a daughter too.

I sense a lot of your past is creeping up on you NOW

and that's not your h's stuff; it's yours.

Learn from the women you witnessed who did not handle the pain/anger of betrayal in a healthy way.

ESN, I'm not sure if you are saying anger is something to hang onto

OR if you think some of us are telling May to Repress it, but I don't believe in either of those actions.

MAY,

what you saw/felt as a child must have been terrible for you. I cannot imagine how hard it would be to trust ANY man, let alone choosing to trust again when he hurt you at a vulnerable point.

Though in truth, Most of us have had "trust" issues in some form.

How many people do you know who grew up in the Waltons family? (If I'm dating myself with that reference, try "Brady Bunch" or Happy Days or whatever "NORMAL Family" TV myth you were raised with and dreamed of)

ANYHOW When I first read your story I just wanted to slap your h's face off and help you through a maritally fatal situation. So I probed about what you saw in this man and

YOU said that before the pregnancy, and during your dating years and marriage, you two had some gooooood history. You had FUN. You described his good qualities & your previous dating/marriage, and I believed you. I still do.

You don't strike me as someone who was looking at him with rose colored glasses. You dated long enough and were married and you certainly were ready to be a mother, and at the very least he went along with it. The pregnancy was a planned event and he participated... cool


During the pregnancy, something sad, scary and ill - happened to him when you began to show

b/c it meant a major, irrevocable change in his life was coming.

(I don't know if THAT is why he changed, but it happens to be true).

You also think he's depressed. Agreed...

Since you've posted more about HIS family of origin lately, it's easier to see where the "sad, scary & ill" part came from.


Please remember that what you do with this episode in your life, is something you can either model for your d as a bittersweet crucial life lesson,

or hide it from her b/c you chose to react poorly, perhaps irrationally or from anger, due to a wounded ego that might partly have been a wound left over from your father, and not your h's...

You're a T. You think People can change or not? You must know they do, b/c your h sure did...


seemed slim since there were so many questions left unanswered, and that it seemed at the very least, she wanted answers, but b/c she didn't I didn't see that as her letting go - does that make sense?

Well no, I don't know what you mean here^^^.

But I strongly believe that there are situations in which the questions-

1) have no answers, or no answers that are knowable;

2) have answers that won't be revealed for awhile - but should not prevent forward movement;

4) have answers that no longer matter, for one of many reasons.

For instance, I still cannot explain WHY my h did or said a lot of the things he did and said 6 years ago. HE cannot explain large chunks.

He genuinely does not recall some of them and I believe him. And there are events he recalls very differently than me. And for some of the events, he has no answer but "I'm sorry"

which I think means he was selfish and is now ashamed...but I am not positive that is the meaning and he might not be positive either. I don't care.

I wasted way too much time as it was, on seeking answers that were not available or helpful or useful.

If I were to have waited "for THE answers" before allowing for a recon, I'd have died waiting and we'd have stayed back there in neutral, trying to see things identically. Trying to determine the proper % of blame to assign...

Endeavor and her h are seeking SOME answers now, together

and working on a future with a new type of m, that may not resemble their old one at all.


May, there are 2 other points I really want to make here. Hope this analogy & version of mine helps.


As you know, there are many bad childhood events to heal from, that are not part of a marriage (E.g., Maybe having things stolen a lot as a kid can screw you up, but it MIGHT not hurt a marriage, per se).

Other childhood events, unfortunately, do/ CAN creep into the marriage even where it does not really belong.

For instance, childhood Sex abuse, even if you got t for it, could still haunt your present day sex life, & it could ruin a marriage.

AND it might not be your h's fault at all even if he made a foreplay mistake...right?

By analogy here, in this scenario, your h did make a terrible mistake with a co-worker while he was away from home travelling. He gave into temptation and at least behaved inappropriately & kissed.

Also, This happened while you were pregnant, which triggered some weird unexpected negatives in HIM, that were not helpful to the marriage and which made YOU feel that much more vulnerable.

In sum, HE had an issue from childhood mainfest in a very unexpected way during the pregnancy, (which I think contributed to his behavior)

AND THEN

YOU had unresolved issues of your childhood, complicate the crap out of handling this. When you were at your most vulnerable, i.e., becoming a mother (and becoming your mother...??)

Hence the anger you yourself feared would ruin things. You even said that before you learned for sure of any OW involvement.

To me, that part DOES NOT fairly belong your h or your marriage, but belongs to your father and your mother's marriage.


You had both answers *and* remorse, and now an understanding H. Not that that makes it any easier, but I trust that would make it much more possible for May.


No doubt it would make it way way easier. Clearly. But it's not always shown in the same way, or felt the same or expressed the same AND we're not even sure there was the same "crime" committed...

Also in Endeavor's case there was the double edged sword of having a truly wacky OW. It's bad news b/c she's potentially dangerous in several ways AND public...

but the "good news" is that truly Wacky OW's are no threat to their marriage, per se, when they are batchit crazy,

I doubt Endeavor's h "struggled" with the dilemma of wanting to leave his family for the star of "Fatal Attraction" in Nutsville.

That could have made Endeavor's choice harder, b/c it is infuriating to see the dangerous side, but she let it make it clearer, MAYBE b/c she didn't feel threatened by OW...I don't know, not sure it matters here.

(OTOH would it really be better if OW looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, had the brains of Condolezza Rice and earned Angelina Jolie film demands? I mean, would ANY of us feel great competing with that?)

Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)

Retrovaille will NOT hit him over the head with religion (l posted somewhere about this and forgive me if it was to you and I'm repeating...)

ours was nominally Catholic and but for the visible presence of a priest in the background, who spoke maybe 30 min the whole weekend...I just didn't feel that way. Does your h hate ALL religions or just Catholicism? Does the word "God" turn him off? They do discuss spiritual connections in a marriage.

There is NO PUBLIC disclosure.

Only the couples leading it, or guiding it with their stories talk in public (their stories are inspiring and so valuable they are worth hearing even if your spouse did nothing BUT hear them...very moving)

Oh--- yes You can ask questions. But otherwise, I never heard anyone there as a couple, share anything in public.

The guiding couples will share something or their story or a topic, and then propose an exercise and then You do that stuff on your own, or together as a couple in privacy. Then you re=group and they do it again. They don't ask you to share what you "just learned"...

in that sense it's like no other workshop I've attended b/c of the privacy aspects.

I liked that in some ways b/c there was no weird social issue or peer competition or tension.

Some couples had more anger visible in how they left a room and some seemed to be joking more together but mostly I felt like we were "alone" with the guiding couples and us.

I say get him to go if you can do it within reason. Once there, he can choose to do the work or not

But if he does do the work, then who cares why he went originally?


And the follow up will keep the momemtum going. We felt a small miracle had happend that weekend, which got us to a place we had not been since the workshop we went to a decade earlier.

The last day began & I already felt good, renewed, saw a few things from h's eyes in a new way, and took in the feelings he had about his mother's cancer which I had not realized before...

THEN the last morning came and we had an exercise and returned to the room to discuss it.

May, I do want to tell you all about it and I could describe it =

but I might build up your expectations too much

OR I might be betraying my h in a way, too. He really opened up.

So let me just say that the ONE hour talk that morning, was the most important meaningful connecting hour, of the previous 4 years of our marriage crisis.

I felt he really truly "got it". And as for me,

The forgiveness I thought I had already given, was then truly completed.

May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )

and that you leave a legacy of redemption and forgiveness and commitment, to your d. Whatever form that takes...

In sum, I believe in the power of redemption and forgiveness.

And As Endeavor pointed out, if we don't believe that people can change it's pointless to be here.
We are all rooting for you.

((( )))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 10:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Endeavour
Originally Posted By: ESN
Right. This is what I've been saying all along.

I'm suspecting she can't get past it. So why are we all telling her she should "let go"?

Clearly she's not letting go. But we'll keep trying to talk her out of it ...

For the sake of the marriage...

Which I don't get.

Especially in light of the fact that she seems to want a reason to leave him.


ESN, no one is trying to talk May out of anything nor into anything. We are telling her to step back, breath and consider her choices before making any decisions in the heat of the moment.

We are sharing our experiences because that's what we all do on this forum. We share, we learn and hopefully we grow.

In the end, May will do what is best for her and that's all any of us want.

If she wants to leave him, she will.

When I discovered my H's PA, I recall that 25 posted that if I couldn't get past it, she would not judge, that it was okay because not everyone can.

As I said, I'm sure not 100% convinced I can but I'm taking the advice I've learned here on DB as well, as information I've learned from reading other sources, and I'm doing my best to not rush into any decision I may later regret.

I'm letting May know what worked for me. If it doesn't work for her, I am not dependant on the outcome.

When I first read her story, I thought her H was a jerk. I mean who leaves a pregnant woman?! There's got to be some man code against that, right? But we don't know who he is now. We don't live with him.

People change.

And if they don't....then why are any of us here?


that's another one of your posts I will be quoting (and of course attributing)
endeavor.

ESN you are reading our responses in a very dfferent way than I am.
No one told her to let it go for the sake of the marriage??...

that really misses the main point of my message..but no matter and never mind b/c I hope my last one cleared it up for you.

Endeavor I hope your kids are well (I'll check if you have your thread back so we don't hijack).

But some great insights, great personal work. Nice motivator for me to get back on my track and monitor MY results.

I've been DBing with my youngest d, "checking in" to see if I'm verbalizing enough appreciation for the chores she does.

Apparently words of affirmation and hugs are her LLs...

"DB: it's not just for marriage anymore."
cool
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 10:23 AM
So May-

Your h is IN Los Angeles...and I am near that city...hmmm since I'm here anyhow...

any requests?

cool
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 09:18 PM
I'm so ready to be off the emotional rollercoaster.

I was doing really well yesterday and through most of today until about 2 hours ago. The weather is such a trigger for me, and it happened during the kids' recess. I just started seeing all those lines in the chats I found and thinking of what little evidence I did have. And it took everything in me not to lose it right there.

I realized I was rocking back and forth like a mental institution patient.

Should you never contact the OW, ever? Even if it seems like they're willing to talk? Even if H is ok with it?
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay

And ESN, it's not like I don't want to get over it. I want to get over the anger. But it's taking me a while. Really, I was feeling a lot better about the whole ruined pregnancy thing until I found those chats (and oh my God it made me so angry to see he was having one RIGHT IN FRONT of me as I'm lying in the hospital bed with our newborn), but right now I'm angry about the lying. I understand that the EA is over and done with, but he perpetuated the lie. And supposedly he's come clean, but I'll never really know for sure.


It's going to take you awhile to get over that anger, May. But just because we feel angry, doesn't mean we have to give into it. Instead, you can chose to distract yourself. Sometimes when my anger starts simmering, I will ask my husband for a hug, ask him to spend some time with me or ML. If I focus on our positive interactions, I'm able to let my anger go for awhile. Yes, it will pop back up when I'm triggered and I'll think, "How could he do this to me?!" But you control your mind, right?

I can be angry and miserable OR I can chose to do something loving and fun with my H instead of lashing out. Most of the time, good feelings will follow. Is it 100% foolproof? Nope.

But replacing bad feelings and memories with happy memories is a good place to start.

By the way, that doesn't mean sweeping issues under the carpet OR not dealing with them. I'm only referring to something that is over and done with. In the past. Not new issues or something hurtful that is ongoing.

It takes practice and believe me sometimes I still want to beat him down with a bag of oranges. crazy I am not the perfect DB'er. I get off track sometimes. Less now, but definitely often in the first months after D-day. Be patient with yourself.

I think one of the keys for me getting to piecing so fast was because (yes, ex-ow was an idiot so there wasn't much competition there), but I was already detached from my M on D-day. I don't know if you've ever read my sitch but I was sort of the WAS first. I even gave my H the ILYBINILWY speech. I had essentially checked out of my M so I was already on the DB path, as far as not begging, pleading or crying on bomb day. That's why I know this stuff works. I've seen it work in my life. Once, I came here, even though some of it seemed counter-intuitive, I followed the advice to a T. Well, most of the time...I tried at least.

What I'm trying to say is that our emotions can often lead us astray. If we can take the emotions out of sitch for awhile, the results will be different.

I'm angry but what does showing it every time I feel it get me? Distance. More anger. My H feels guilty. I know he also feels ashamed, embarrassed and broken. Those must be an awful feelings too. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes any more than mine.

If you get to piecing and the M is the same, what's the point? We have to do things differently or we'll end up in the same spot 2 years or 5 years or 10 years from now.

Now that would make me really angry!



Originally Posted By: dueinMay
So, Endeavor, I don't know if it's my gut or my fear. Clearly the fear is very real and very present.


I think that's why it's hard to know if your gut is giving you the truth OR if you're fear is making you BELIEVE it's the truth. It's a little hard to trust your gut given your past history. Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that.

If you need to know to move forward, as I said above, you're going to have to make it safe for him to do so BUT it's not ever going to feel safe for him if you're going to end the M if he admits he had a PA. So you either believe him at this point, or you don't.

I'd want to know too so I understand your feelings on this issue. I asked my H if there were any more A's in his past. I said that if he truly loved and respected me, to please give me the truth about my life. I said without the truth there would always be a wall between us. I told him that I needed complete truth and honesty to move forward. I can only trust that he complied because I can't go back in time or read his mind.

I'm not sure there's any middle ground here because you seem to believe there was a PA but he's insisting that there was not. Short of giving the man a polygraph, I don't know what else you can do, aside from giving him the truth and honesty speech I gave my H and hoping for the best. Or just deciding that you have no choice but to believe him.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I brought up Retrouvaille. I inquired for more information for the one in my area and sent the link to H. He said he didn't want to talk in front of people, but I told him I didn't think it necessarily worked like that. I also assured him it's not overly religious. He said he might go, but wanted to know more about it first. Any suggestions for what I can tell him or should I just wait for the local people to contact me?


There is no talking in front of the group. You just listen to the stories of the presenting couples. All of the talking you will do will be with each other in the privacy of your hotel room. As for the religious aspect, it is minimal. The priest who attended our weekend was very liberal, told a lot of very funny jokes and was very easy-going. My H and I had lunch with him one afternoon during the weekend and found him to be a very interesting, funny and intelligent man. My H is not religious in the least but he thought Retrovaille was an excellent program and he was not bothered in the least by the minimal religious aspects.

Also, as I mentioned 25's post helped (will try to find the one I'm referring to) but on D-day my H was pretty desperate to save the M. I was so shell-shocked that if he hadn't taken the reins, I don't know if we would have made our weekend as it was about 5 weeks after D-day. But H scrambled to get us registered pretty quickly. Keep in mind though, this is the same man that was acting like a huge jerk and a vacillating emotionally unstable wingnut for months and only days prior so convincing your H now should be a cake-walk.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Endeavor, what were some of the questions that you asked, if you don't mind me being nosy? I have SO many it's a little overwhelming. I know from being a T that you have to be careful how you ask questions especially questions that start with "why". And I feel that's the majority of my questions currently. Why her? Why then? Why did you lie? Why did you hide? Why didn't you talk to me? Why, why, why?



I got a lot of questions from the book, "Not Just Friends" and from other sources online, books, etc.

The key ones for me were:


What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved? What led to the affair? How did you feel about me before the A? During?
Did you feel guilty?
How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?
What did you share about us? What did you talk about?
What did you tell ow to make her believe it was okay to get involved with you? Did she even care that you were married or hesitate to get involved?
What did she do for you that I didn't? What emotional needs did she meet?
What did you like about her? Dislike about her?
What did you like about yourself in the affair? How were you different?
Were your feelings for her real?
When did you know it was over?
Did you blame me for your A?
Why would you never have an A again? What did you learn?
Do you have strong boundaries around women?

Keep in mind these questions were not asked all at once but spread over months. We would talk about the A, but we also would have bonding time during which the A was off-limits.

Some books recommend talking about the betrayal until it becomes an non-issue. It's all talked out and then you put it behind you. Others recommend asking all the questions you have in one or two sessions and then NEVER speaking of it again. I felt too much pressure by the one or two session thing because I could only think of a question here and there. A week would go by and another question would pop up. Sometimes I'd wait until I had a few written down before I would ask to talk about it, or I'd sit on the question for a few days and then decide it wasn't that important after all.

I did not ask questions that would trigger me. Like what kind of car did she drive, her personal style, what restaurants they went to, etc. For instance, I don't need to think of the fool and possibly drive off the road every time I see the kind of car she drives on the highway.

Hope that helps. An EA or whatever he had with that foolish woman is less involved than what I'm dealing with...But I do know from reading, that betrayal in an M is betrayal. And it's going to take sometime to rebuild the trust. Sadly, trust takes years to earn and seconds to destroy.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/24/12 11:04 PM
Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I'm so ready to be off the emotional rollercoaster.

I was doing really well yesterday and through most of today until about 2 hours ago. The weather is such a trigger for me, and it happened during the kids' recess. I just started seeing all those lines in the chats I found and thinking of what little evidence I did have. And it took everything in me not to lose it right there.

I realized I was rocking back and forth like a mental institution patient.

Should you never contact the OW, ever? Even if it seems like they're willing to talk? Even if H is ok with it?


Do you really think you're going to get the truth from a liar and a cheat OR the kind of woman who would get involved, flirt, etc... with a married man whose wife is pregnant?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

I did contact the ex-ow in my sitch...

But only after she started harassing me via email by sending me articles on what to do if your spouse is in love with someone else, cheating, children and divorce, confidence, weight loss (hilarious considering I'm thin and she's not).

So then I sent her one very charming email that put her in her place and basically called her out on her immature childish behaviour. My husband said that he's sure after reading that e-mail, she felt like the complete loser that she is...

Then we followed up with a Cease and Desist letter. Case closed. Haven't heard from her since.

But opening a dialogue with an ow and expecting the truth? Highly unlikely in my opinion, May.

And she just may say some things that will enrage you. Words you will never be able to forget. Don't give her that power.

No contact is for the faithful spouse too.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/25/12 12:32 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


I doubt Endeavor's h "struggled" with the dilemma of wanting to leave his family for the star of "Fatal Attraction" in Nutsville.


That made me laugh out loud.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
That could have made Endeavor's choice harder, b/c it is infuriating to see the dangerous side, but she let it make it clearer, MAYBE b/c she didn't feel threatened by OW...I don't know, not sure it matters here.


No, definitely not threatened. I mean how embarrassing would it have been for him to wake up one morning and realized he left a sane woman with a good head on her shoulders (relatively) for a needy, desperate, clingy "I can't survive without you" bunny boiler?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(OTOH would it really be better if OW looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, had the brains of Condolezza Rice and earned Angelina Jolie film demands? I mean, would ANY of us feel great competing with that?)


Okay, I admit, the fact that ow was less attractive was a bit of an insult. Then pair that with the batchit crazy behaviour, and think I said, "I was so bad that you had to take up with that?!" BUT in H's defence (well, sort of), she didn't go truly off her rocker (although there were previous signs) until he tried to dump her after bombing me. That said, I was more angry about the crazy part because if she had let him go, we could have started working on our M right away.

Anyway, a bit of a t/j so back on track....

But as we know, affairs are not about looks because the WS often affairs down. It's about how ow/om makes them feel. H knew ex-ow was less attractive in every way but made him feel wanted and I did not. Of course now, that just seems stupid to him but affairs are not really all that rational in the first place.

And most affairs crash and burn in less than two years because they are relationships built on lies and deceit. And selfishness and thoughtlessness. Who wants an R that's foundation was built on the pain of others? I think that's more key than whether the ow is attractive or crazy.

And thankfully H got that...(the above was something I got from what he said during one of our A talks and one of many reasons why he wanted the heck out of the A).

And obviously May's H got that his EA had no future either and that's why it ended.

Some people make stupid selfish decisions when they're depressed or confused or scared. The key is to learn from the past and make sure we do everything within OUR power to not repeat those bad decisions in the future.

That responsibility goes both ways. My H takes responsibility for the poor way he handled his anger, rejection and hurt. And I take responsibility for the poor ways in which I expressed my anger and insecurities, which resulted in me rejecting him and wanting out of the M, even prior to his A. We both handled things badly.

The irony is that I am not at the place of being able to say I have forgiven my H yet, but I can honestly say, I would bet money that he would never cheat on me again.

I see who stands before me now.

And that's what counts, May. Who is he now? And is he trying to be a better man?

You guys are still so young and marriage is hard. There are ups and downs and crisis points in every M. If you can get through this now, and truly learn from it, you're going to save yourself a lot of heartache in the future.

I recall a brief conversation I had with a woman in the Retrovaille post sessions who is around the same age and my H and I (early 40's). I was chatting with her during the break and my H with her H. She sort of stopped mid-way during our conversation with tears on her eyes and said, "I wish we would have done this years ago." I said, "Us too." She replied, "It would have saved my H and I a lot of heartbreak." I said, "I know. Us too." That was all we needed to say. There was a sense of knowing between us. I don't know their story. I never asked and no one ever shared but I got the sense it had been bad but they're still together, and they looked happy by the end of the sessions.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)

I had to Google the Big D to even know what it meant so no. Closer to you geographically than to May. The way I spell Endeavour sort of gives you a clue too.


[quote=25yearsmlc]May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )


^^^^^
See this is key because whatever R or M you are in, this stuff is going to come up.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/25/12 12:36 AM
I messed up the quotes above....trying again.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)


I had to Google the Big D to even know what it meant so no. Closer to you geographically than to May. The way I spell Endeavour sort of gives you a clue too.


Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )


^^^^^
See this is key because whatever R or M you are in, this stuff is going to come up.
Posted By: Eryam Re: I guess I can be here now - 04/25/12 03:19 AM
New thread (probably past due)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2240568#Post2240568
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