Well, I've finally gotten off my lazy butt and moved over to this forum. I'm really glad to be here and piecing things back together with H! Here is all the history:
Things happened so quickly... is there any hope?Can we be friends?Waiting for ForgivenessStill Waiting for ForgivenessForgiveness Received! (Divorce Started)The couple who posts together, stays together?---------------------------------------------------------------
Things have been really good between H and I. I hope he agrees! We still see little stumbling blocks here and there but we're both working hard on how to prevent them when they occur and opening up to each other. We are also working hard on showing each other that we love each other using our love languages.
Right now H is on a skiing trip with his dad. I have to admit that it's really rough to have him gone again. I know I can handle being home alone because I did it for 3 months but it reminds me of those months so strongly that overall it's a pretty depressing experience. Luckily I have some friends coming down this weekend so that should keep me busy.
I'm supposed to go visit my parents while they are vacationing for winter in Alabama (they'll only be there to the end of March) but I really don't want to leave H. I don't want to be away from him, I don't want to put him through having me gone because I know he hates it and to be honest, there are some lingering trust issues as well. It's something that's really important to my parents and I think I need some time with them before my H will be ready to see them again.
The biggest issue we're discussing now is whether or not to continue seeing a C. We went this last week and I actually think it was a really good session. Most of the things that came up were things we'd already discussed but the C is really good at asking the right questions and getting us to understand each other even better than we can do on our own.
I think in the end we both decided to stop going and we're going to work on things ourselves. I was looking to do something a bit more structured while we C ourselves. For example, we would both read a chapter in a book and then discuss it, go through the KLA tape series and do the workbook exercises and discuss them, go through other books with workbooks, go to the KLA seminar and look online for intersting webpages and read/discuss those. Since we're both procrastinators, we'd have to set up something regular... like an hour every Tuesday to discuss etc.
We know that one of our major issues is that my H has a hard time communicating with me so we're looking into ways that will make it easier for him to do so. I am understanding more and more (with help of C actually) what makes it hard for him to speak with me so I am working on that. He also has ways that make it easier for him to tell me things like this BB, writing emails, letters etc and we're looking into ways we can bring up issues with each other like that so it will be more comfortable for him.
So now that we have a good handle on the issues with us, one of our biggest problems is going to be my family - and more specifically my mother. I'm actually going to continue with the C and work on my R with my mom. My mom has a very dominating personality, can be very judgemental and has to always be right. Unfortunately, she wanted us to get D'ed and thought it would be for the best. She doesn't have a high opinion of my H. She told me during the entire ordeal that my wedding day was the worst day of her life... so this isn't going to be easy.
Well, that's how things stand right now. This is going to be one long, slow, hard process but when my H is sitting next to me, holding my hand and smiling at me, it's all worth it.
#1 Congrats on being here
Vince
Calystra,
You both sound so very commited to the process of healing and you look as though your on the right track to success. I wish you all the best.
Vince
Quoting calystra:
We know that one of our major issues is that my H has a hard time communicating with me so we're looking into ways that will make it easier for him to do so. I am understanding more and more (with help of C actually) what makes it hard for him to speak with me so I am working on that. He also has ways that make it easier for him to tell me things like this BB, writing emails, letters etc and we're looking into ways we can bring up issues with each other like that so it will be more comfortable for him.
Calystra -- I'm so psyched for all the progress you guys have made! I'd love it if you could find time to share what you're learning about communicating with H.
Sage
Cal,
Its like I read your posts and there is nothing to give advice on anymore, you guys are figuring it all out without needing any help from us. Your an inspiration now!
Calystra -- I'm so psyched for all the progress you guys have made! I'd love it if you could find time to share what you're learning about communicating with H.Alright, this is definitely something I can do for you guys!
I want to warn you beforehand that my C is heavily into the concept of family dynamics and how our families taught us how to interact/behave.
My H told me that when we are discussing something, I have a manner of speaking that always makes him feel like he has to defend himself. He finds himself trying to form his words to do just that and since he's a conflict-avoider, most of the time he would rather just give in or stop the conversation rather than try to defend himself against what I'm saying.
My C started asking me how things worked in my family and especially with my mom as we had already highlighted her as a target problem more than my father. My dad is more understanding and supportive by far. After a few good questions by the C and thinking about it for a while, I realized that my mom is one of those people who always has to be right. Her way or the highway. She is very assertive, very aggressive and very argumentative. Growing up I was always scolded for interrupting conversations but she didn't realize that to get a word in edgewise, I
had to interrupt.
So, to get my needs met, I learned how to be assertive, aggressive and argumentative right back. This means that when H and I discuss things, I display these traits and he's right - I am being aggressive/argumentative and essentially asking him to defend himself. But he's not my mother so he reacts differently.
Because these traits of mine are so ingrained, it's really hard to break out of this style of talking. When in the middle of conversations, my H finds it very difficult to speak up and tell me I'm being this way. He is afraid of 2 things I think... hurting my feelings and that I might not care about his feelings and keep doing what I'm doing. During the C session I told him that it's great when he does this because it's such an unconscious thing on my part, it snaps me out of it. I think that he will try harder to tell me now that he knows it helps me.
But the important part is that not only does he bring it to my attention - I know how (from DB'ing) to interact with him in a better manner that's more comfortable for him. I listen, I shut my mouth, I validate!
The second thing that's hard for him to do is bring up his needs. I really struggle with speaking his love language because it doesn't come naturally to me at all. He told me the other day that his love tank was getting low and I didn't even realize that I hadn't been filling it because I was feeling so good from having mine full. (Quality time comes pretty naturally to both of us so I'm the lucky one, I think.) He feels that it cheapens things if he has to tell me because I immediately try to work on it and I think he feels the effort is less than genuine... and then I start to forget again... which reinforces the fact that it wasn't genuine and lasting... and we're in this vicious circle.
The C told us that at first it will be difficult for me to do because it's not something that comes naturally - like picking up a new sport... you don't know how to do it right away but after some practice you get really good. She said that he might have to help me out for a while but after I practice more and more, I should get really good at it and then we can take the training wheels off. I think he's ok with that.
And the last thing my H has a problem with is bringing up bad feelings. He's not only afraid of my reaction, he's afraid of hurting me. My C explained to him that it is my decision whether or not to be hurt by something he says. He does not have the power to hurt me, I only have the power to let him hurt me - and I have to give up the power and make the decision if I'm going to allow something he's said to hurt or not. I think he liked that concept too but I don't know if it will make things easier for him or not.
One thing that will make things easier for him is my reaction to anything he says. It's important to him that I control my reaction and emotions and try to understand what he's saying and validate his feelings. This is something I try to do but I'm going to struggle with. Well, for most things I won't have a problem but I think there are cases where I sometimes just can't control my reaction nor should I necessarily be expected to. For example, when he told me about the A... but that's over with now so I'm running on the assumption that he will never have to tell me something that painful ever again.
Whew, that was long.
Whew, that was long.
Long, and powerful!
Damn, girl, this part of your story sounds so familiar to me! My wife and I had pretty much the same patterns. They're pretty hard to break, but it IS doable, and gets easier with time and practice.
My wife is a very "feeling" type of person, whose thoughts kinda bouce back and forth with the moment. I had to learn to just let her talk, to "think out loud", and let her thoughts and feelings run full-circle before I "interupted" her with my thoughts.
On the other hand, my thoughts and feelings often run pretty deep, I've been stewing on them for awhile, and it takes me awhile to actually get around to my point. Which frustrated the hell out of my wife.
Quite often, too, we had been having OUR part of the conversation going on for so long in our heads, that we kinda jumped in with it in the middle of our thoughts, and the other party had absolutely no idea on what initial thoughts lead up to this point!
We came up with a "code-phrase" that we started most deep conversations with, which was "I'm just thinking out loud here", which helped to remind us both of the fact that we were in a "safe-zone" to talk. That we wanted to be listened to, without interuption, and that neither of us wanted anything solved, and that we weren't trying to "attack" the other person. It was VERY unnatural at first, but it helped us both to put things in perspective, and helped to set some ground rules for the purpose of the conversation. We still use this a LOT!
Quoting Floyd101:
Cal,
Its like I read your posts and there is nothing to give advice on anymore, you guys are figuring it all out without needing any help from us. Your an inspiration now!
We'll be able to say this very soon about your sitch too I bet.
C-
I would like you to visit my thread in midlife section. I am looking for help regarding those key things you did that worked.
Thanks
Ok I have a question that I probably already know the answer to, I just want some opinions...
Lets say that a bank employee was looking at people's accounts without cause and sharing that information with her friends and other people who weren't bank employees. (For example: Hey, I looked at so-and-so's account and he spent almost $500 at 2 companies in the last month. I looked up those companies and they're online porn sites.. ha ha ha.)
So not only is this probably against the bank policy, it's illegal and wrong on multiple levels. And if you could get the attention of an investigator at the bank who was interested in knowing the information, would you tell or wouldn't you?
-------
Ok now that you're thinking about that... let's add some more info. Let's add that the person who is doing this is the ex-OW.
-------
So I'm not the kind of person who's vindictive or mean but I can't help but fantasize about doing these things to her. My H says that I am blaming her for something that should be completely his responsibility but I don't agree with that. I'm a nice person, I don't do this to people - but on the same hand I'm very ethical usually and will point out store/bank errors, pick up money off the street and return it to the person or a nearby place so they can return it...
To do this would upset my H because not only am I hurting the OW and I'm not being a nice person which is something that is important to him. He said that during the entire ordeal he expected me to be mean and vindictive once under my mom's influence and it surprised him when I wasn't. He also expected OW to be vindictive and mean as well whe he left but she hasn't. So in his eyes, I wouldn't be the "better" person in the sitch if I went ahead with telling.
Of course on the other hand, she's the one who did something wrong and continues to so it's not actually my fault for giving them the information in a sense. I don't know, pretty torn on the issue because of ethical/moral beliefs and emotions all mixed together.
A. Im a bank employee.
B. It is illeagle.
C. Who is getting hurt here, the XOM or her customers?
D. Do you turly have this information?
E. What is the right choice?
F. Are you the only one that has this information?
G. How did you come about it?
I know what I would do... Whats right is not always popular.... That was said by anonymous.
JMHO...
Hi Cal,
GREAT post on communication! I'll have to get my H to read it. Hell I'm thinking he'll be aboard before too long...
About the bank thing. Here's another way to look at it: If this was NOT the ex OW, and you had all the same info, what would you do???
Just food for thought.
Shiny
Quote:
About the bank thing. Here's another way to look at it: If this was NOT the ex OW, and you had all the same info, what would you do???
my thought as well...but then even if you would tell (with her not being the ow) would it still be believed that you didn't do it just to crush her...
if you do nothing..she will eventually get caught...??
if you do tell and she is this type of person...you may be opening yourself up to a big mess..never know what she may do to retaliate.
LL
A. Im a bank employee.Good.
B. It is illeagle.Yep, it is.
C. Who is getting hurt here, the XOM or her customers?Both? XOM would probably lose her job. Bank customers lose their privacy. Bank could be potentially be sued. I personally would never bank there knowing that their employees practice this. My H says that probably all bank employees do it so it doesn't really matter.
D. Do you turly have this information?It's technically heresay because it's word of mouth, I have no tangible evidence but I assume if I gave them the names, they would go back and check their access records (they have those right?) and question her about why she was accessing certain records if she had no cause. It's possible she would have cause to look at them but I don't know. I do know for sure that she shared this information with non-employees.
E. What is the right choice?The right ethical choice? To tell the bank what's going on.
F. Are you the only one that has this information?No. My H and all of XOW's friends also have this information - including the guy whose account she looked at and shared with friends because he is an XBF.
G. How did you come about it?H told me thinking it was a funny story.
If this was NOT the ex OW, and you had all the same info, what would you do???I guess it depends on who it would be then. If it were a family member or friend I would tell them how I thought it was inappropriate behaviour that I didn't agree with but I wouldn't turn them in. If it were someone I didn't really know that well, I would probably be doing something like I am doing right now. I've informed the bank anonomously and they've contacted me back at an email address I set up requesting more information. Now that it comes down to handing them names, I start to "waffle" because on one hand I don't want to hurt someone but on the other hand, it's ethically/morally wrong.
H seems to think that I'm only doing it to get back at her but he forgets all the emails I've fired off to companies about things like this before. Ok, there haven't been that many but I've definitely done this before. She's the one doing something wrong, not me.
'Course part of me would be doing it just to get back at her I guess.
Quote:
'Course part of me would be doing it just to get back at her I guess.
well try as hard as you can to pretend it is not her and do what you would do then.
LL
Ok, another story for you all that I think you might enjoy.
In highschool I played basketball and ended up blowing my knee (tearing my ACL) during my junior year and had to have reconstructive surgery and everything. So I've always been really careful about my knees now and about other people's knees. So what is the first thing I think about when H is going on this skiing trip? I hope he doesn't hurt his knees.
Knee injuries are high in skiing especially for someone who is a little out of shape and hasn't been skiing more than once in the past six years... I just got the phone call.
H was skiing down a green hill (for you non-ski people, that's one step up from the bunny hill) when he went over a jump and felt his knee pop. The first thing that went through his head was "Oh no, Calystra's gonna be mad at me now...". He tried to land on his body so he wouldn't do any more damage to his knee as he's heard me talk about how bad it is if you do extra damage to an already damaged knee and succeeded. Luckily his dad was right behind him so he was transported down to the clinic and they checked everything out.
From having been through this I know they can't tell him if it's bad or not without an MRI - which they don't have there - so they took some X-rays to make sure nothing was broken and felt around a little. They say that he probably sprained his MCL and possibly a little cartilage damage but he should get it checked out when he gets home. So he might be home a little earlier than planned ... or he and his dad might find something else to do out there.
He's doing ok now, in a bit of pain and his neck hurts from the landing. In his defense about the green hill part, he was off on some side trails through the woods that were probably harder than green... I really shouldn't be laughing as much as I am at this part, my poor baby needs some sympathy.
My h is an auditor at a bank..if this person has truly done what you say and she is telling all these people..then she is probably being watched...if it is all her just saying she does it then she is setting herself up for trouble.I think the people she is actually telling should contact the bank. She won't have a job very long.
Sue
Sorry about the knee. I'm an avid skier myself. Started at age 8.
I think the most important thing would be what would your H think about you acting on this information. Unfortunately, we see illegal things every day, and usually do nothing.
I can certainly understand the desire to hurt the OW. I've had plenty of thoughts of doing in the OM.
Calystra I really appreciate the advice you gave me. I have good news too. I am going to be moving over to piecing soon. My wife woke up today. Even told me she loved me. Check out my post for the particulars..
help I just realized I have a WAW..
Hi Calystra, soory to hear about H's knee. Hope he is ok. Sorry to ask but if you have a chance could you please stop by my thread, things have taken a definite downturn and I would appreciate you "wise DB'ing" advice.
Thanks
Just checking in on you both...
Sorry to hear about Ceb's knee... At least it was not the we knee that got hurt... That could be bad to a mans ego...
Take care kids.
Quoting ScottS:
I think the most important thing would be what would your H think about you acting on this information. Unfortunately, we see illegal things every day, and usually do nothing.
Thanks ScottS.
I think I see it as a few things.
First, I see illegal things every day. At our company we pretend to work often when we're sitting around playing games online. My wife surfs the web when I know she probably shouldn't. I speed on my way to work, and have stolen pens & such from the office supply cabinet.
The information she looked up was her ex-bf (an account she made for him). I understand that it's illegal, but since they know each other so well, I consider it something between the two of them. I told her how I felt about it, but I wouldn't think of reporting a friend for something like that.
Finally (and the most important to me), is that I've been working at not hiding things from my W. I'm doing my best to tell her everything that comes into my head, interesting, funny, hurtful, etc. Now as soon as she started threatening me (or warning me, whatever) that she was thinking about contacting the OW's workplace, I have a definate reason to filter any more information that I have. I certainly wouldn't mention anything else that could be used in blackmail later. Why? Because I can't trust my W to keep anything I give her confidential.
Sounds bad, but it hurts me to think that I can't tell my W something confidentially.
Ceb, I can appreciate what you are saying there...
As for me, I have 2 jobs... During the day I am will win ordnairy mortgage banker... During the evening... I AM WILL WIN REALTOR...
A couple of weeks I ran in to a similar sitch, kind of...
A friend of mine at church (We will call friend G) was talking to a vistor (we will call him J)... The visitor told him that he was moving to town. G immeadiatly calls me over and tells me the sitch. I introduce my self to J and give him a card. J calls me a few days later, on my phone at the relo office, I have a trap line. It will tell me the number a person called from, incase some one leaves me a message and no number... So J calls, leaves me a different number then what was trapped... So I write down the trap number, and call J at the number provided. J and I schedule a meeting. The day of the meeting arrives and J never shows up. The next day I am talking to G telling him we had an appointment. G who's w works for the county prosacuters office tells me that J is a wanted man for fraud and forgery. G's wife T then ask me for the numbers... I am now in a delima... I have confidential information from a client that he did not give me that I received through my job. J is also wanted... I cant just give T the numbers that I received... Or can I???
SO I talk to my broker... My broker reminded me of my fiducary responsiblity to my client to keep information confidential, and told me to do what I feel is right.
The point??? Sometimes one person has to struggel with what the ones they care about feelings and doing what is moral...
Dont beat Cal up too hard... This is something I am sure she is struggeling with...
Im sure if you both sit down, you can figure out the best solution...
As for me, my friend is having a supena filed for the other phone number so I can have a clear conseince....
Calystra,
In my humble opinion, I would say that you shouldn't go report her.
I suspect that if this woman is taking these actions, then she's lashing out at others because she is hurting herself. I also suspect that she'll have many chances to learn the lesson of "What goes around, comes around". I bet she's hurting herself much worse than you could ever hurt her.
However, the issue is not about what this other woman is up to...but rather bringing you and husband closer together.
He is opening up and sharing with you. It would be hurtful to reward that with behaviour that he sees as a form of betrayal.
It doesn't matter that it isn't a betrayal...perception is everything.
I think you are doing a great job of piecing...keep up the good work.
Hugs!
I know, at the beginning of all of this I said I already knew what I was going to do but I just wanted to talk about it with people other than my H since my H is still loyal to OW in a lot of ways - which really hurts.
He validates how I feel and understands but he doesn't think it's right or agree with me that she's a vicious, lying, manipulative, vindictive, bleep bleep bleep. I hate that he likes her. I hate that he thinks of her as a "friend". I hate that he wants to stick up for her.
In the end, I'm not the kind of person who would do that to another human being no matter how much I hate them. In fact, I don't even hate her really, I don't think I'm capable of hating someone. But, as WW said, I still struggle with the morality of the issue. Yes, I see people doing slightly illegal things all the time but, in my opinion, that is more than slightly illegal. Surfing the web at work is not a federal offense even though it might make me lose my job.
Calystra,
I hear you...and I can relate to the pain.
I'm sorry you are hurting.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I think turning her in for her misbehaviour is just a band-aid. It's only going to feel better until you have to tear it off. And unfortunately putting this temporary band-aid on your wound sounds like it will only re-open your husband's scab.
Again, this is my opinion and I don't mean to offend you.
I hope I haven't.
Hugs.
(((((((Calystra))))))
I over-empathize too much I think.
My own scab has broken open again.
Calystra, whatever choice you make, it will be the right choice for you.
Hugs.
I over-empathize too much I think.
My own scab has broken open again.
I know what you mean. H left this weekend to go on that ski trip and being home alone all over again just set me right back into depressed mode. I was reading the BB one night and came across B2K's recent development and it effected me so hard that I had to quit reading the boards until today.
I basically empathized so much with her sitch that it felt like I was living her life for a little while and feeling her pain completely - felt like I was in a different world. I suddenly remembered after a little while that I was ok and that stuff didn't really happen to me... that H was home and things were going well. Had to snap myself out of that, it was very weird and powerful.
Help!
Any and all replies very much appreciated on my thread. Selfish, yes...sorry!
Shiny
Cal,
PnT has got it exactly right. Im not sure if I read this in DB or not, but it is natural for him to defend her. For some reason they just do.
If he started bashing the guy you had an EA with, what would your reaction be?
IMHO its time to let the sleeping dog lie........
I wonder if in defending the other person, they are really trying to defend themselves? It would make sense to me for the walk away spouse to think, "Gee, if they think that way about the other-person, what do they think about me?"
And thus, they defend the other person, saying they aren't so bad, when they are truly trying to defend themselves?
Dunno...just a thought.
Hugs!
Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
I wonder if in defending the other person, they are really trying to defend themselves? It would make sense to me for the walk away spouse to think, "Gee, if they think that way about the other-person, what do they think about me?"
And thus, they defend the other person, saying they aren't so bad, when they are truly trying to defend themselves?
Here's how I feel about it.
I have told Calystra many times that she should not blame the OW for what happened, she should blame me. There was no point in time where the OW did something that I didn't want her to do, and at many times the OW stated she didn't want to damage a marriage. I explained the marriage was over, so she shouldn't worry about it, but she definately was concerned.
I'm certain there are plenty of things Calystra could be mad at the OW about, but any of those I'm doubly responsible for. I find it very important to take the blame when it's due, and it makes me feel bad to hear blame being put on someone else when I think it's my fault. I hurt OW a lot by leaving to go back to my W, and I told her I'd never talk to her again. I would rather let that be the end of everything.
Any extra contact from this point on would just be painful for everyone involved. If she was fired for something I knew about, she may end up thinking I did that (or W did), may end up trying to contact us, etc. I want it to be over, completely over. I want any blame to be put to me, and then W and I can work through those issues. With her EOM, I have no interest in blaming him or getting revenge. If I have issues, I'll take them up with my W. I just want the other R's to be gone if possible.
Ceb,
I understand your reasons.
I realize that there is a lot of pain for everyone involved.
When my husband and I first started dating, he stayed loyal to an old girlfriend despite the things she did try to ruin our relationship.
Now, I know that you are in a completely different situation. So forgive me if I'm projecting...but I'm going to throw this out there.
My husband (then boyfriend) expressed the same reasoning you did. But I still felt like he was being loyal to her instead of me. And that hurt...a lot.
Could your wife be feeling the same, despite your noble intentions?
Hugs.
Hi Cal, Hi Ceb
Thanks for your post Cal, wise as always. Big blowup in shinyville last night. Seems "Piecing" can be more of a challenge than being a "newcomer"
Shiny
Quoting Ceberon:
I have told Calystra many times that she should not blame the OW for what happened, she should blame me. There was no point in time where the OW did something that I didn't want her to do, and at many times the OW stated she didn't want to damage a marriage. I explained the marriage was over, so she shouldn't worry about it, but she definately was concerned.
I'm certain there are plenty of things Calystra could be mad at the OW about, but any of those I'm doubly responsible for. I find it very important to take the blame when it's due, and it makes me feel bad to hear blame being put on someone else when I think it's my fault.
Ok but here's the problem. OW was supposed to be my friend too but instead of even having any consideration for me at all, she jumped into bed with you at the first chance she got. I blame her for being there to do that, I blame her for taking that opportunity, I blame her for stabbing me in the back. If she was not there, it may have been someone else you chose to do that with but I doubt it. I don't think you could have done a lot of what you did without her, she was your enabler and I blame her for that. Even if it was someone else, it would have been someone I didn't know, not someone who was supposed to be my friend.
Quoting Ceberon:
I would rather let that be the end of everything.
Any extra contact from this point on would just be painful for everyone involved.
<snip>
I just want the other R's to be gone if possible.
I definitely agree, I really try not to bring it up anymore - I'm doing good with that, no? I just need some place to vent... and this BB wins the prize.
oh, I hear ya Cal.
Back in the fall when my H spent most of the night at my best friend's place...I pretty much lost it at the thought of having a friend stab me in the back too.
(point of fact...nothing at all happened with the two of them, she was pulling for our M and lending him an ear)
Ceb, it really is different if the OW is someone you know, worse yet if you trusted them, worse yet if you considered them a friend. It just is. And in this case the OW went ahead with your A, KNOWING that she was stabbing a "friend" in the back. That's just awful!
Cal, thanks soooo much for your excellent insights into this whole flirting business, I really, really appreciate it.
Shiny
(((((Cal))))))
You are doing good.
(((((Ceb))))))
Thanks for sharing with us.
You both rock.
Hugs.
Picked up the Sex Starved Marriage and started reading it outloud to H last night. He really likes when I read outloud to him and I enjoy doing it so it's a good sitch altogether. Let's just say that the book works wonders because we barely made it through the first chapter.
Seriously though, I was avoiding the book because I assumed it was just about sex and M but it's got a lot of DR and DB principles in it too. So if you were avoiding it for the same reason I was, it might not be a bad idea to go ahead and pick it up.
Cal,
Ive been thinking about picking up that book because, as you know, we have no sex life right now. I just might get it this weekend. I think I am going to make a list of books to buy this weekend.
Sounds like a plan. Glad its obviously working for you.
Floyd - I got the book as soon as it became available on Amazon. It's a great read - compliments DB and DR very well. It does delve quite a bit into some of the physiological as well as psychological reasons as well as strategies.
Cal - couldn't make it through the first chapter, huh?
Hope that you and Ceb can continue to light the way for us!
Just read all your posts Cal and Ceb.
In one word....... AMAZING
You have given me a lot of inspiration and some great ideas.
I am considering approaching my WAW with the idea of communicating this way without being confrontational, I feel that we can get to the real core of our issues that we may be hesitant to bring up at this time and this way it would put and end to the stalemate in our seperation and allow us to "vent", so to speak, so we can have a better understanding of each others needs.
Communication has always seemed to be an issue since the seperation (read that as eggshells) so this may be the ultimate icebreaker to this stalemate.
Opinions?
Quote:
I think the trick is going to be just LISTEN and say nothing except uh-huh, i see, ect.
Anyway THE WALLS WERE DOWN!!!!!! and she talked
too soon to bring it up, I think you should continue with what you did during the last two intereactions with her and simply listen to her. now is not the time to bring up this bb (and actually not all spouses are willing) she may see it as persuit.
stay the course that you are on.
LL
Hi Cal and Ceb,
Yup, now I know what book I'm picking up this week!!
Hunterfox, I'll try to find your thread and give you my POV on the dual posting.
Shiny
Quoting shinybear:
Ceb, it really is different if the OW is someone you know, worse yet if you trusted them, worse yet if you considered them a friend. It just is. And in this case the OW went ahead with your A, KNOWING that she was stabbing a "friend" in the back. That's just awful!
This is the sitch that I am in. OW was a friend. Have been out with her. She has been to pool parties at my in-laws house. Knew H's mom before she died of cancer. She has been to my house. Heck, she even pushed my S8 in his baby stroller during a charity walkathon. It hurts to be stabbed in the back by someone you trusted over the years. This woman knows me, and I would have called her my friend. I cannot begin to describe how difficult it is now to imagine this woman playing step mommy to my kids. It is really sick! Anyway, I just wanted to give you another POV.
I am inspired by your thread. I hope to join you someday here under piecing. With God's help, I will!!
Keep the faith!!
Every time I read your thread I am inspired by the hard work you are putting into healing your M. I think it is great that you two are so willing to open up and communicate with each other. I am sure that it is very difficult sometimes, but once you two have worked through all of this - just think of the strength and depth that your R will have.
Monday morning at work - time to slack off and post to the BB again!
As most of you know, this last weekend was the KLA seminar. Ceb and I had a great time the entire day even if we were a bit sleepy towards the end. Saturday morning we walk in a bit late and search for a place to sit. I only had a very vague notion of what the other DB'ers looked like so we couldn't find them in the crowd and just decided that we would figure it out at the bar afterwards.
Well, as we're listening to the seminar, something strikes me about the people sitting right in front of us. I just had this sense that they were BB people - I told Ceb about it and he just shrugged. Then Michele made a comment about the 2x4 and they all laughed at it along with Ceb and I so I was more sure of myself. I told Ceb that I'd bet him the lady with the long, curly black hair in front of us was chillywater and he doubtfully says, "How do you know?" and I said "Women's intuition." at which point he eagerly accepted the bet.
So we're all standing near each other in the lunch line and they're joking about something BB related and Ceb asks them if they're from the BB and tada, they were (see, this women's intuition stuff isn't a bunch of crap
).
The seminar was great! For me it was just a reiteration of everything we've all been studying here but I felt better knowing Ceb was there getting all the information from the source this time. He's picked up most of his knowledge about stuff from the BB and still hasn't had the time to get through DR or DB so it wasn't new to him but it was in a sense. The writing exercises were definitely new to him.
It was pretty funny when we were writing out our goals - Michele had us use the back side of the paper so we'd have more room and I ended up filling the entire back side with the goals and detailed explanation of them. Ceb looks over at my paper with dismay when he sees how much I'd written then back at his own where he has three simple lines. I've just had more practice at this sort of thing.
We were working independently on the exercises then exchanging papers. 98% of the time we were dead on with each other but there were a couple of differences which is good, more things to work on.
I went up to Michele during one of the breaks to thank her and gave her a really brief explanation of our sitch. She was so happy for us and gave me a hug. (Ceb didn't go up there with me because his knee was really hurting him all day.)
Had a really great time with all the DB'ers - zero, chillywater, js, hacker and abby. It was so great to meet all of you, you're all wonderful, attractive people. If anyone ever has a chance to meet any of these people, take it, you'll enjoy yourself! It's a shame that the weekend was so short, I think we could have had a lot more fun even if we all get tired at 10pm.
Calystra,
I had a great time also. I am a bit dismayed that I'm so easy to spot in a crowd of strangers. Guess I'll have to work on that. I enjoyed hearing Ceb's viewpoint on WAH's.
Also must apologize for running off with out a proper good bye. I was so tired all I could think of was going to my room and crawling into bed. Hopefully we will meet again.
Hey there! It was great meeting you too. I really enjoyed talking with both of you over dinner. You're an inspiration. --z
Calystra, thanks for stopping by my thread. I appreciate your insight!! I sure hope you're right!! Have a good day! ~Cind
Ceb posted on this other thread and wanted me to link it up here:
Hopefulness --> Calling all Former Walkaways
Ceb,
I saw your posts over one Hopefulnees -- great stuff for the LBS.
I was hoping you might take a look at my thread sometime when you have a chance. My H is showing signs of awakening, and maybe you can give me some advice on how I can work through this with him. Thanks for considering it.
Calystra,
Thanks for your advice on my thread the other day. I have posted my R goals and did meeet some of them this weekend
Now H back to the SAM
.
Thank you again. You are Ceb are a wonderful inspiration.
Calystra and Ceberon,
Just scanned your threads - another rocket scientist. One suggestion came to mind:
SIGN UP FOR DANCE LESSONS TOGETHER. This will become part of the new you=couple.
Another warning/suggestion:
VD's can be transmitted much later - you both need to be tested and then re-tested after 6 mo.
As my OB/GYN says it is not a matter of 'if' just a matter of 'when' - there is no way for you to know
if someone is 'safe' or 'clean' - get the tests...you need to know and some silent VD's can be treated/cured
before permanentdamage is done - especially as you are so young.
Keep doing what works. The desire to succeed, is the reason you will succeed. You have been blessed.
Faith. Hope. Love.
LSL
Hiya Cal, Ceb,
I'd appreciate some input on my thread, when you have some time.
Got an email from my monkey, trying to form a plan.
thank you both!
Hugs.
Just wanted to post something as it's been a while.
There isn't much new going on really. I think last night is the first time we had a bit of a problem...
I have a habit of complaining when someone wants me to do something that I don't want to do - but I end up doing whatever it is anyways. Well, this doesn't go over well with Ceb and I don't blame him, it's something new that I've found I need to work on now but I think we could have handled the discussion about it a little better.
I wanted Ceb to stop at the grocery store for a couple of things we needed for dinner and he was going to but then traffic got really bad. I was already home so he asked me to just go out to the store instead. I decided that we could do without the things from the store but he'd decided that we couldn't. So when I said nah, I didn't want to go ... he wanted me to go. I complained but then agreed to go.
Then he was upset because he felt like he was forcing me to do something. So we discussed how it made him feel but he added "... and it makes me not want to ask you to do things so I'll just do them myself or go without and just build up all that resentment inside again..."
I asked him if that was a threat because it sure sounded like one and he said no. I guess I thought we'd agreed to work things out and that would include him changing his behaviour when necessary (ie. telling me about things instead of building up resentment) and not just me changing. Of course my mind went straight to "he's going to build up resentment and leave again...". He had to get off the phone because he was getting grumpy.
So I went off to the store, picked up some peace offerings (movies from Blockbuster and flowers
) which worked really well and we discussed our feelings when I got home and both apologized and agreed to both work on issues together.
He's never gotten flowers before so that made his day - maybe even his week.
Cal,
Sweet gesture (flowers and a movie). It is so easy to break the tension when we decide to make that first move, isn't it?
Erin
The flowers remind me of something my wife did years ago when we were not married but living together...
She kicked my happy but out once before. Then a couple of days later I receive these flowers at work. The card said "looking for another encounter, signed T."
I thought someone at work was screwing with me.
Then a couple of days later I received flowers from her again. This time said, "Please come home, I love you. *Wifes Name*"
I was furious at first cause the first day I felt like a fool. Hindsight being 20/20, that was a very sweet thing she did for me. And I felt like a jerk afterwards for being a jerk.
Anyway... That was very cool Cal...
It was also a bit of a 180 on her part as well, since I was bracing for an argument when she got home, I just assumed she'd be mad about something. Usually she'd be in a bad mood if I asked her to do something she didn't want to do.
On my part, I have a really hard time explaining my feelings. I feel bad asking her to do something if she's going to act unhappy about doing it, so instead of saying that I would rather she have a positive additude, I just said I'd bottle my feelings up again. It's hard to remember the proper ways of expressing yourself when you're moving 5mph on a highway you usually travel 75mph on.
Oh well, we'll work on things, we'll get better
Quote:
It was also a bit of a 180 on her part as well, since I was bracing for an argument when she got home, I just assumed she'd be mad about something. Usually she'd be in a bad mood if I asked her to do something she didn't want to do.
Ceberon
I wonder, had you said "I think we need those items, would or get them or is it okay if I am late" The the choice would have been hers. I feel if she felt the items were not needed why bother. Did you not think this would bother her, maybe your Martian hat was on. There are some battles worth fighting, this was not one. My 2 cents.
I admire you for posting, and proud of you for showing not all guys are clueless.
Poe
Hi Cal and Ceb,
Funny how those "little things" start creeping in again.
But the great thing is, you both recognized it, and didn't let it take it's natural (and destructive) course.
That's what this part of the ride is all about I suppose!
Shiny
It sounds like it may hurt to hang with you folks... Geez.. LOL.
Sorry I missed it, maybe next time.
Later you crazy kids.
The only part that hurts is squeezing into our small backseat in the Camaro and your head the next day. We'll probably plan something for end part of April again so you can start preparing for a weekend with us now...
maybe you can be of some help to my wife too. You helped me out so much.
My wifes post.
my wife is posting now.
WW,
I'm not THAT fat...
sheesh!!
Hiya Cal, Ceb.
Could you stop by my thread and give me your opinion?
I think I've gained some insight into what/why my husband wanted out of our marriage.
PnT's thread Thank you for your time and patience in helping me!
Hugs.
Cal,
I was wondering if you could look at my thread in newcomers "He doesn't love me anymore" On the last page is a long e-mail from my H in response to something stupid I did. We will be having a R talk tonight and I need some advice on how to approach this from a db angle. If you get there in time, I would appreciate it.
ERin
Stopping in to say howdy kids...
I hope all is well.
Thanks for stopping by, WW.
Things are still going pretty well here. We're both working hard but it's so difficult to not fall back into old patterns sometimes. At least now we can recognize them but that doesn't always make it easy to stop the behaviour.
We haven't had a nice quiet weekend home alone with each other for a while now - at least part of this weekend will be quiet. Looking to take a nice trip with just the two of us somewhere for an extended weekend... no decisions yet.
Cal,
can you go to my thread and give out some advice?
I'm freaking out (yes I'm 40 and it's an old word but it explains the mood) anyway my h & I were doing fine.
He found some info out about the xow and shared it with me.
I'm glad he did. However I found out that she is no longer with her h.
It shouldn't bother me. But it does.
Please drop by my thread. I'm in hopefulness.
I should be dancing in the street and saying I told you she was nasty! And a liar and she was playing you all along. But that would just hurt him and I still can't believe she played with him when she knew he loved me and wanted a chance with me.
I know I'm not making sense.
Drop by please
Kip
I got a raise today! And a bonus...
It's funny how my company can give out those things when they just laid off a bunch of people last week again - out of my department even.
My boss praised me on how much I've changed (DB even affected my work apparantly!) and how far I've come in the last year and especially the last few months. She also praised me on how I kept up my work even when things were going bad with Ceb.... I guess I was a little confused about that because I felt like things were spiralling out of control here at work too... I guess I was putting on a good show, heh.
Things are going well for the two of us, nothing new to report really. Just wanted to give a little update.
Hey! congrats on the raise AND the praise! Must be a good feeling!
FYI -- I used you as an example today on "good listening and validation" -- I think it was Kelli's thread on Newcomers -- even posted a link to your "Waiting for Forgiveness" thread!
Glad to hear you guys are doing well.
Sage
So happy to hear that you and Ceb are doing well.
You two are an inspiration.
If either of you get a chance and could stop by my thread "Strange Days" in newcomers I would appreciate any advice, insight, etc.
Hi:
I am also very happy to see how well you and Ceb are doing. You guys are an inspiration for me and the type of R I hope to have someday. If I am really lucky with my STBX - I really hope that we can have the type of honest exchange that you guys are involved in.
I wanted to ask you a favor. I recently realized something about my sitch and have one last thing I want to try. Would you mind stopping by my thread in the Separated Forum? My thread is "One Last Try - Need Advice.
Thanks,
Manisha
Congratulations Calystra!
That's wonderful!
Hugs.
HI Calystra
Ive been keeping track of your sitch and this is the first time I have posted.
You guys are a insperation to us all, I pray that one day I can be over here with you giveing advice to people like me.
I hate doing this but if you can check my post out and give me some input.
Thank you so much and keep all these positive thoughts coming our way.
Dan
Hey Cal & Ceb,
I smile everytime I read your thread.
Keep up the good work you two. Let me know when you guys are having another get together. I might see if W wants to make a trip to Chicago.
calystra ~ would you mind stopping my my thread:
I am not your carpet ride... and maybe ask ceberon to do the same???
My H is now teetering on getting himself an ow....
(Part of me is like, you know... uh....???? O kay???? And the other part says, "If you're gonna try, charcoal, try...")
So, your insight would be appreciated.
Thanks
charcoal~
Hi Calystra & Ceberon,
Like everyone that has already posted to you guys - you are an inspiration to all of us. I have also read all of Ceberon's insight of what goes through a WAS in the hopefulness forum and I found it so helpful.
I hate to ask, because I know you are both in high demand, but I would love it if you both could stop by my thread on the newcomers forum called "Pride is getting in the Way". Any advice you both have would be greatly appreciated.
Keep up the good work!
putter
HI guys
You two are the talk of the BB about getting back together.
I hate doing this but do you think you could check out my thread
Dans life You see im in the mil stationed in Germany and have been trying to get my marriage back. I think that I am seeing some baby steps but just not sure and would like your opinons. You two have been through so much
So in advance I would like to Thank You.
Take care and hope today brings you two much joy.
Dan
YO!
Stopping by to say howdy... I hope all is well!
Boy you two are pretty popular! Where you been lately? I'd love to hear an update from you.
Take care!
Hi Calystra! Havent stopped by in a while. How are ya?
Shay
calystra
crisis averted, all is well
hope y'all are too
~charcoal
Hey everyone!
Just wanted to stop in, say hi and let y'all know that things are still going well here. Sorry I haven't gotten around to anyone's threads but I think we're drifting further and further away from here...
I'll try to stop in now and then... take care and keep DB'ing.
Hi Cal:
Hope you're doing well. Next time you log in take a peek at my latest thread and let me know what you think.
bb
Hey again... seems I've been spending more and more time online these days. Work just seems to be slowing down and getting boring lately, that'll be my excuse.
I wanted to write a little bit and let you all know what happened this last weekend (Mother's Day) when we went to visit my parents...
A few days before the trip, Ceb still hadn't decided whether he was going to go with me or not. I hadn't been pushing the issue because honestly, I didn't want to confront it and was hoping he would come to some resolution himself. Unfortunately he was thinking the same minus the resolution part. So I brought it up and he thought about it for an entire evening - literally.
Finally, he made the decision to go with me. He said that I'd taught him so much and he was so proud of me for that ... that he was going to take a lesson from everything I'd learned and go with me because it would make me happy and it would benefit our R. So he decided to put the R first (yay!) and that alone made me so happy... but it only gets better.
We headed up to my parents on Friday night and got in real late so we went to bed pretty much right away. I got up early (as usual) and he slept late so I had some time there to talk to my parents - especially my mom. She tried to make me understand that it wasn't that she didn't support me (because she does) but more that she didn't want me to see myself waste so much of my life trying to make my husband happy because she did that for so long and it wasn't worth it when you weren't getting the reciprocation. I assured her that wasn't going to happen and Ceb was as dedicated to making things work as I was. I think that made her feel better.
I also went over the issue of how Ceb doesn't feel very accepted at our house and we discussed it for a bit. I have to disagree with my mom's thinking unfortunately. She believes that if you're ok with something and someone else has a problem, it's their problem, not yours. While I agree with that to an extent, I think if you care about that other person, there are things you can do to help them.
For example, Dave doesn't feel accepted by my family because sometimes my mom just invites me to go places, not him... or we talk about people he doesn't know, etc. My mom said it was his problem because we weren't excluding him (true) but I feel that there are things she could do to help the situation like specifically trying to invite him along etc. Anyways, I couldn't get through to her on that point so I let it drop... for now.
I figure that by being this new, more compassionate, validating, empathic person, I can slowly work on my parents, family and friends with my own attitude and solutions to problems and maybe teach them something along the way. I know my parents and grandfather have issues with my uncle and in the past always end up in yelling matches so I've been suggesting different solutions and trying to impress upon them that when one approach isn't working you need to try something else. (My mom really liked that concept when I put it to an example.)
But anyways, back to Ceb... I told him all of this after he woke up and told him that my parents weren't excluding him and I think that part of the problem is that he felt excluded. I explained to him how my family works and the differences between his family and mine (basically my family expects you'll just speak up or go along with something if you want to do it, not invite you...) and he told me he would make a bit more of an effort to include himself.
It worked amazingly... we did yardwork at my grandpa's house, karaoke at a bar with my parents and her friends and spent the entire night at the casino (yes, the entire night with my mom ... we got NO sleep ... and I was the party pooper who wanted to leave at 5am and take a nap!). After the weekend was over and we were on our way home, Ceb said that he really had a good time and had fun! He's never said that about being at my parents. Plus my mom was just about crying when we left because she had such a great time with us.
It was a great mother's day weekend.
Calystra -
It is so good to read of your compassion and caring and how hard you Db to get to where you are. Can you please stop over to newcomers and give me a swift kick. I am getting so discouraged. I want to be where you are..........
Faith
I am so happy for you.
Dotto
Boy do I need you! I started to read your thread and when I go to the part about your C suggesting you keep telling him and showing him how you feel I about FLIPPED. I am in the same position with a man who felt underappreciated and that I never loved him. He was a GIVER, just like yours and I TOOK.
I REALLY need your advice since most of the time I have yet to find someone who is the Woman that turns into the pursuer. I am excited that I found you and hope you are around to help.
IF anyone know s how to reach Calystra can you PLEASE tell her that her twin is looking for her at
calls but no message
Happy1, try leaving a message on Chilly's thread... she's on the Divorce forum. Look for Zen and the Art of Moving. --z
If anyone wants to get ahold of me, the best way is through email:
calystra@hotmail.com because I don't check my thread very often anymore.
Things are going well with us, we're super busy lately taking some classes in real estate. Had some arguments yesterday but nothing catastrophic.
HI Cal (HI Ceb)
Sure hope you check your OWN thread now and again!
Truly excellent work with Pam, Cal. You do seem to have the calling.
There MUST be some clinical MA programs being offered through distance edcuation or even on-line. If not, I'll bet there WILL be in the near future (That's what CJ's upcoming MA degree is in: e-learning).
I'm not sure about the laws in Ill. but things are pretty stringent in Ontario. To practise as a "Psychologist" one needs a PhD.
Many offer counselling (private and publicly funded) with a Masters in Psychology or Social Work (MSW).
But in reality, pretty much anyone can "Hang out a shingle" and offer counselling. You just can't pretend you have credentials that you do not. Plus it's harder to get clients as you cannot be accredited without the full degrees.
I think it would be AWESOME if you could find SOME program that encourages part-time distant study, and would let you clock in your practicum here on the BB!!!
Shiny
Quoting shinybear:
HI Cal (HI Ceb)
Sure hope you check your OWN thread now and again!
Truly excellent work with Pam, Cal. You do seem to have the calling.
There MUST be some clinical MA programs being offered through distance edcuation or even on-line. If not, I'll bet there WILL be in the near future (That's what CJ's upcoming MA degree is in: e-learning).
I'm not sure about the laws in Ill. but things are pretty stringent in Ontario. To practise as a "Psychologist" one needs a PhD.
Many offer counselling (private and publicly funded) with a Masters in Psychology or Social Work (MSW).
But in reality, pretty much anyone can "Hang out a shingle" and offer counselling. You just can't pretend you have credentials that you do not. Plus it's harder to get clients as you cannot be accredited without the full degrees.
I think it would be AWESOME if you could find SOME program that encourages part-time distant study, and would let you clock in your practicum here on the BB!!!
Shiny
Thanks for the encouragement, I'm certainly going to keep looking. The laws work the same here in Illinois as you described them. I definitely want to focus on marital therapy because I think too many people think that D is part of our culture and ok and I definitely disagree with that. After trying to find a good C around here that's solution-oriented and knows the DB principles, I know how hard it is.
I remember first searching around the internet for ways to stop the D and only coming up with a couple of resources! And searching at the library turned up so few books as well. I just wish there was more available help out there for people to turn to - and the more help there is, the more mainstream the information becomes so people will know it is out there even before they try to D.
I think I'd just like to get some guidance from a C or someone else in the field as to what the best route is for me to go at this point. I'm also really concerned about the money because I know that I won't qualify for any financial aid and college is so darn expensive!
So I actually need to just get a Masters in psych or social work and then concentrate on getting accredited by various organizations. I'm really curious as to what Michele requires for her phone coaches and moderators too but I haven't gotten an answer back from her office yet. I know they're pretty busy though and I've learned some lessons in patience.
I'd be really curious about her system and the credentials too. I agree 100% with you about the poor state of MC in my area too. I can't imagine this is an isolated phenomenon.
Maybe Michelle should offer her OWN on line course that seasoned DBer's could take and then open their own DB practise in their own locales. Wouldn't that be awesome? That might be the only thing that would tempt me away from teaching!
Shiny
Calystra,
Have you emailed Michele and asked her about what path you might be able to take? You guys are even in the same state so she can fill you in on state requirements/laws etc... I'm sure she'd be thrilled to see your interest and would give you some great guidance.
Edit: never mind, i see you already did email her. Anyways..I can't remember if it was on a post here or in a newsletter, but I believe I heard that she's away at some conference now. I'm sure they'll get back to you.
calystra
Some organizations will pay for masters, in return for working somewhere, ie.. low income area, not necessarly in inner city, also in the middle of nowhere
Poe
Thanks for the advice, I'll check into that as well. I'm just not sure if they'll want to pay for me while I'm still working full time for someone else or not but it's definitely another area to look in.
Nopey
You did not answer the question what are her Love Languages
The love tank concept is you ask her each day if her love tank is being filled.
Poe
Quoting poepad:
Nopey
You did not answer the question what are her Love Languages
The love tank concept is you ask her each day if her love tank is being filled.
Poe
I'm so confused - what is this in regards to?
cal
Ignore it, wrong thread, it was for Nopkins, sorry
Poe
Just wanted to let you all know that I applied to a graduate school to get my Masters in Professional Counselling. They have my app. and I have an interview next Thursday so we'll see what happens. It's not a great school but they're close and flexible so I can do 50% of the program online and it's all night/weekend classes and they're accredited - what more can you ask for?
Hey, that's great to hear. Now people will have one more solution-oriented counselor out there (decreasing the likelihood of finding one that does more damage!).
Calystra,
I think you have found your true calling!! Great news!! nik
Hi Cal,
Didn't know the details! That is neat about the online and nights and weekends!
Good luck.
Calystra,
That's wonderful!
I know that reading your posts on this bb have been really informative and inspiring to me. You will be a wonderful therapist!
Hugs.
Revivng this thread so it continues to stay on the forum, its a little bit old but still here.
Not sure how it survived the purges.