Hi All - This is XYZ. Been gone a while, but checked in a couple days ago and decided I owe you all an update and I'll give it, but doubt I'll be staying. So....
As you recall, W asked me to come home on 11/4/10 after a two week sep. It was the happiest day of my life. Piecing didn't stick. Started off ok, but W wouldn't spend time with me, wouldn't really "talk" with me, etc. We were civil and nice, but no real effort on her part. I tried and tried. I scheduled dinners out. I arraged baby sitters. I asked her to seek counseling with me. I listened. Boy, did I listen and when she spewed, I shut up. I owned my mistakes. I did it all. Over and over and over I tried. She was always full of excuses.
Well, short version is that I got my own place a month ago. I hired a lawyer last week and we are working on the property settlement. I love my "W", but not the women in her body, now. I'm done. It's over. She can kiss my a$$. I don't know how she can live with herself and her actions. I have found peace that despite my years of mistakes, I busted my a$$ to fix it and did EVERY thing I could do. I owned my mistakes; she embraced her's.
X out.
P.S. I wish the best to all of you. You helped me so much during a very diffult time. Especially Harrier, Bolt (I read his updates and I'm so sorry, man!) and best of all - Jack. You guys are the best.
Should also tell you...I've been on 3 dates and have a few more lined up! Nothing serious, but I'm actually having a little fun!
X-man,
Buddy. I'm glad to hear from you, but really sorry for the circumstances. Sounds like you are doing ok.
I would love to ask you a couple of questions, but I know you probably don't want to re-hash the last 3 months. I'm scared of going down the road you were/are on. I know it's not the end of things if that happens
I kind had a bad feeling when I didn't hear from you for a while. Actually I probably feel more bad for you now than you do.
This post kinda hit me a little hard. You and Bolt where my 2 buds on here. Bolt got blindsided by his W. and now you didn't quite make is as your W wasn't there for it. It is disheartening especially since my W seems to be doing a lot of what your W did.
I wish you the best man.
Hey Harrier - Ask away. If it helps you, then it won't be all for naught.
I can tell you my biggest mistake of all -- and people on here told me I was making it as I was making it, but I was smarter then they were. I showed them!....
When W asked me to move home I replied "yes, yes, yes, I'll be then in 5 minutes" and I was. I should have said something along the lines of "A lot has happened, let me think about it a bit" and then a few days later, "I have conditions for coming home: therapy, date night, quiet walks on the beach (whatever, you get the point), if you can meet those conditions, I'll come back; if not, sorry, I can't." I was too scared that she would say no. But in reality, that would have been easier to do.
I let her off the hook with a fake try to make her feel less guily. I'm convinced that it was never for real, she just wanted to be able to say "see I tried and he still [censored]".
X
Hey XYZ,
Not to sound too Polly-Anna here, but the future is written in smoke.
Meaning who is to say what will happen.
Despite my parents best efforts telling me the stove was hot, I got that cool a$$ multiple ring burn on my right hand as a kid.
And then I knew what HOT was.
And now you do too.
I also feel that our first attempt was nothing more than to allow her to say she tried. With an eye toward finding the quickest and fastest excuse to call it off.
Dating?
No recrimation. Nothing like that just a cautionary word, ok?
You are hurt, no matter what you say. Just go slow and easy. I know alot of people here who rush into what seems like a great thing and over look the warning signs that would wave us off if we were...healthier.
Go slowly, you can hurt yourself, and a person who is less deserving than even you.
Don't get me wrong, enjoy it...but make sure your both on the same page. And if you both are? Enjoy it as often as you can.
: )
I hope that you find in time a...reason to post here again.
I think in time...if your heart isn't too hard, you will.
Thanks, Jack. It's funny. I looked her yesterday for the first time in months. It had become my mission to almost forget this place, it was too painful. But today, I feel like I've come back home in a sort of way, to an old group of friends. Friends that I wouldn't know if I bumped into you on the street or even know your name, but friends none-the-less.
My dating is for fun and fun only. I'm nowhere near ready for anything more than conversation and meaningless .... ehhh fun.
I know what you mean.
I have friends here who know me better than my friends in the meat world. People I can tell things to because of shared experiences that would never pass my lips in real life.
It is a safe place.
We are in this together; alone.
X-
Qs
Was there any one event that kinda pushed you over the edge?
Did you just sense your w had stopped doing anything?
During the whole time did our D give you any verbal assurances that she wanted to work on things?
Do you think she really change or did you change?
Lastly, did the months of her not trying change the way you looked at her. Did it cause you to lose those feelings for her. was she aware of this and Did she care?
Hey H -
(1) I guess if there was 1 event, it was time when I went out of my way to schedule a baby sitter and dinner out. I busted my rump (multiple reservations, 2 hours’ drive w/kids to in-laws) to have her cancel because she was too tired. Then found out she'd been hanging out with a girlfriend all afternoon. Plenty of time for her friend; none for me. That type of thing was frequent and eventually eye opening.
(2) I called her on spending time with me and she just refused. I repeatedly asked for a resumption of weekly date nights and there was always a reason not to.
(3) They most she would say was she was "trying", but I can't for the life of me tell you any actions on her part that would constitute trying.
(4) I KNOW that I changed (for the better). She did too, just got grumpier and less fun.
(5) No, my feelings for her are the same, but they are targeted as a memory of the "real" her. This person she is now is not that her. Even now, I get myself in trouble when I remember that old her and not who she is now. I long for the old her; I can't stand this new one. I have to get through my head that that is who she is now and the old one is gone forever.
Hey H -
(1) I guess if there was 1 event, it was time when I went out of my way to schedule a baby sitter and dinner out. I busted my rump (multiple reservations, 2 hours’ drive w/kids to in-laws) to have her cancel because she was too tired. Then found out she'd been hanging out with a girlfriend all afternoon. Plenty of time for her friend; none for me. That type of thing was frequent and eventually eye opening.
(2) I called her on spending time with me and she just refused. I repeatedly asked for a resumption of weekly date nights and there was always a reason not to.
(3) They most she would say was she was "trying", but I can't for the life of me tell you any actions on her part that would constitute trying.
(4) I KNOW that I changed (for the better). She did too, just got grumpier and less fun.
(5) No, my feelings for her are the same, but they are targeted as a memory of the "real" her. This person she is now is not that her. Even now, I get myself in trouble when I remember that old her and not who she is now. I long for the old her; I can't stand this new one. I have to get through my head that that is who she is now and the old one is gone forever.
Thanks man.
I see some similarities between your W and my W and some difference.
1. I would like my W to have lunch with me once in a while - and she has done that, But I do know that she has lunches with co-workers weekly and they are usually extended lunches. I understand the feeling less important.
2. My W does spend time if I request. We watched a movie together on Sunday. But she refuses to schedule at 'date night" because she said she hates the idea of scheduling something.
3. I get the "I'm trying too. " But I do know we both got a little lazy with trying when things improved. She has made some efforts that I can look at though. She did agree to MC and agreed to go back to MC.
4. We still are pretty good friends actually. She can be fun and funny.
I dunno, I was having a bad day and your post kinda hit me. I'm outa the funk now.
Glad you're out of the funk. I hate that my post hit you hard. I only posted at all because I felt like I just took off a few months ago without so much as a see ya later, and you guys deserved more. That and maybe I was a bit embarrassed that I failed at what I was trying so hard to do, what we're all trying to do, fix ourselves, fix our marriages, and live happily ever after with our spouse.
X,
That whole idea you failed? You need to get rid of it. You haven't failed.
I have been told that my attitude of "I succeed regardless of whether or not my wife came back." was easy for me to say because my wife came back.
I disagree. It was easy to say because it was true. If my wife hadn't come back it wasn't a failing on my part, I am proud of the man I had become and disgusted at the man I had been and buried.
My wife enjoys the fruit of my hard work, but it could very easily have been someone else.
So, man, you failed?
No, I do not believe that for a second.
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."
Oh let me clarify. I'm right there with you, Jack. I seem to have (I still havn't given up completely, just that now it's in God's hands, not mine) failed at saving my marriage, but I succeeded greatly at fixing me. It [censored] that in all likelihood, my marriage is over, but I'm the best I've ever been... At present, I'm not the happiest, but I'm on the road that way and I know that someday in the not-too-distant future, I will be.
Here's the really ironic thing: When this all started, I had a tremendous amount of guilt. I did this and I did that, I was this, and I was that, I said this and I said that...for years. This is all my fault.
Well, that may be true or partially true, but you know what? I also changed this and that and stopped doing those things and fixed me. Everybody makes mistakes; not everybody fixes them. I no longer have guilt over what I did or did not do that contributed to my marriage failing. I owed my mistakes. W couldn't own her. That guilt can be hers now; I have atoned for my sins.
Well, that may be true or partially true, but you know what? I also changed this and that and stopped doing those things and fixed me. Everybody makes mistakes; not everybody fixes them. I no longer have guilt over what I did or did not do that contributed to my marriage failing. I owed my mistakes. W couldn't own her. That guilt can be hers now; I have atoned for my sins.
Good job and well said!
Even when the journey is over, it's not over. Even though I moved out a month ago, it was only about 5 days ago that I gave W the "it's over; I'm done" speech. And then....
On Wed night I was out to dinner with the kids. In the course of an hour, I get 6 text messages from W asking how the kids are. I ignore them until after dinner. Then I reply "I am no longer at your beck and call. I will reply to your messages when convenient to me; not when convenient to you. Kids are fine." She emails me later saying something about me using the kids against her. I replied "I have not, nor will I ever, use the kids against you. I will have them call you every night before bed and if there is ever an issue you will be the first to know. Other than that, I will not interrupt me/we just because it's convenient to you to text me. I will reply to you when it is convenient to me". This is a MAJOR shift for me and it's real. I don't give a crap about pissing her off anymore.
Then last night (I had kids last night), I get a text about 10:30, "Are you up?". I replied "just turned off the light, need something?" Her: "No, just upset, it's ok, go to sleep". Me: "Ok. Good night."
Again, a major shift. A week ago, I would have been all "it's ok, what do you need? Need me to run over there and wipe your butt?" Not anymore.
I lean out (and I mean, I am all the way out) and she leans in. We'll see if she's prepared to lean all the way in. Not really up to me, but it is refreshing to watch the game play out and not really care (care is a strong word and I do care, but you know what I mean) which way it goes.
One more note...just got a TM from W. "Sorry I texted you so late, Mom and I got a in huge fight and she left. I was worried." (her mom has been staying with her). I just replied "It's ok". Again, major shift. Old me would have quizzed her on the fight and then launched into "see how could this be all about me when you can't get along with anybody"?
So I stayed away from these boards for months while I was working on my marriage. I stop by here to check in one time a few days after deciding that I was "D O N E" and now I can't stay away from them (again)...
Journaling...
I'm not really a very religious person, but I am spiritual. A few days ago I said to God, "I'm done. I've done all I can. Now it's up to you, I have to move on." And since then, I almost feel progress. Maybe it's just relief; maybe it's detachment; maybe W has sensed it too and reacting. Who can know?
I'm back to reading all the posts and thinking about my next strategy. Is this healthy? I really have no idea. I was done and didn't care how she reacted to what I did, because it didn't matter. Now I'm thinking again about her words and/or actions show and/or mean. I really don't know if this is a good thing for my mental health or not.
Why did W contact me when she was upset at a fight she had with her mother? Does that mean I'm still her goto-guy? Will she think about it that way? What will it mean to her that I wasn't there for her when she did reach out? Will that make her miss it or make he feel like she was right all along because I wasn't there? Will she even notice that when she needed to talk, she called me? Doesn't that mean something? I wouldn't call somebody I don't want to talk with. Will she realize that if she can't get along with me AND she can't get along with her month AND she can't get along with her business partner that maybe - just maybe - at least part of the problem is her? Would that matter if she did think that? Even if she decided that ALL of the problem was her (which it wasn't), would that change her feelings or are they locked in regardless of who was the root or the issues?
None of this matters. I'm detached (no, really I am. Although I'm sure this sounds it! ;)). I'm moving on, but I wouldn't kick her out of bed if she shows up one day soon begging forgiveness either.
Maybe I'll change the title to "XYZ is here, and maybe I'll stay a little while..."
Hello X,
Interesting thread you have here. Sure does sound like you did a 180 without really knowing that's what you were doing.
I can almost laugh at the drama now. So predictable, and I just don't care anymore.
8:00PM TM from W talking about how the kids swam in the pool today. -- I honestly did not see it until later.
9:00PM TM from W "let me know if you don't want messages from me instead of ignoring me" -- I did see this (and first one) but ignored it until a convenient time for ME to reply.
9:45 - TM TO W: "That's great on kids, yes please feel free to send me any updates you'd like on the kids"
10:00 - TM from W: "Won't happen again". I ignore.
Geezzz. Do they hand out the script in WAS school?
Wow, she sounds like she's really feeling you pull away. I'm coming into this mighty late and it sounds like you're mighty tired, hurt, numb, discouraged, etc. but it also sounds like the hostility is pretty strong between the two of you. Since you have these, I'm sure, precious little children, you and wife will have many years ahead of needing to be a team for them. Do you basically respect your W as a mom?
Yes, I respect her as a mother. Generally, I think she's a very good mother, but at the same time I see the way she acts these days and have a hard time seeing her actions as "motherly". Know what I mean?
W seems to have gotten into this habit: She'll text me something benign, maybe about the kids or something. Sometimes, if convenient, I reply. And then she starts to spew venom. I did this, I did that, blah blah blah. I let those sit and ignore them.
This is new behavior on her part since I made it clear that I'm done, but I don't know what to make of it. She's clearly testing, but to what end? She has made it clear on plenty of occasions that she is done, and now I have too. Why try so hard to pick a fight? I don't know why she'd do this. Even though I don't reply, it's still pretty upsetting to see and I don't like it.
Can't decide if I should just continue to ignore them or tell her that she may text me about the kids and any business related item and to not contact me about anything else. Just not sure. I also don't want to close the door for her to come back -- if she opens it, not me.
A week ago today, I sent W a proposed property settlement and asked her to reply to me with edits within a week. As of today, nothing. Just sent it to my lawyer saying write this up. Maybe she'll reply when she get the documents served.
In our state, parents are required a attend a 4-hour parenting course. In the same email last week I told her this and asked if she wanted to go together or alone. No reply. So, I'm going next week without so much as a comment to her. She can take care of herself now, I'm done done done. No more babysitting.
She want's a D, she gets a D. I sick and tied of not leading. This isn't the direction I wanted to lead in, but it's the direction we're going and I always prefer to lead the way.
This is all such a 180 from where I've been the last 8 months, that it wouldn't surprise me to see her reaction being a reversal; what would surprise me is my response to her reaction - because at this point, I really don't know which way I would go. Guess it would depend on how sincere I feel her to be.
Nice place to be when you (FINALLY) figure out that heads I win; tails I win.
What a damn mess. Have I ever mentioned how much I hate this? I'm sure NONE of you feel that way!
I get "over" it, I lean out, she leans it, I get hopeful again. Why do I allow myself to do that?
Yesterday (and several times over last few days), she just gives me venom. I ignore it totally. Perfect reaction on my part. Easy to do because I'm over it. Too much crap from her for too long. Finally got the point where I couldn't take any more of it.
Just a few minutes ago, I was out and called home to tell the kids goodnight. W answers, kids already asleep. She it totally pleasant with me. We chat (about kids) for 2 or 3 minutes and I end the call first. (I may be done, but I still DB - kinda natural at this point.)
Then not 5 minutes later, a text from W: "I'm sorry you missed them. Do you want me to have them call you in the AM?"
Me: "That would be nice. Thank you"
Her:"Ok, will do"
Her again: "Meant to ask. Are all going to your parents for Father's Day this weekend? If so, I'll get something from the kids for your dad"
Me: "Yes we are, and that would be nice of you"
Her: "I try"
W-T-F? Perfectly nice woman. Yesterday she could have been calling me Satan's spawn. I'm not going to read anything into it, but do I allow myself ANY hope? I tried and tried for so long until I didn't think I could try any more. I've moved out, I've dated. I told her I didn't have to answer to her anymore. I emailed notes to my lawyer today. I said I was done and now...
Maybe it's the 180, and that's good, but still do I allow myself to hope? How can I not, but how can I any more either?
Jack - do me a favor please - and I know you're going to give me a little grief over this. Can you remind of a short outline of your journey? I know each is different, and like snowflakes, you can't compare any two, but I seem to recall from earlier conversations that you had multiple piecing attempts punctuated maybe with a separation?
I guess I'm still looking for that road map to follow that leads to where I want to go.
So last night, I wrote here about my "nice" w, and then....
She starts TMing me about bills and money. The shrew returns. At one point, she says "You think I'm an idiot. I'm not. I'll show you". I replied "I have never thought you were an idiot, actually I think you're quite brilliant. But there is no need to threaten me. Going to bed, good night."
Test test test. Button push, button push, button push. Well, I'm not falling for it. Been at this game too long to fall for 101 level tests...
I'll try XYZ. Will take a little time.
I only give people grief for it, when they are new.
I have a few things X,
Even though I moved out a month ago, it was only about 5 days ago that I gave W the "it's over; I'm done" speech. And then....
Specifics of your DONE speech?
Please.
I suggested Retroville. She declined and berated me for suggessting it. My reply "Ok, I'm done. I give up and I'm moving on with my life. I'll get my lawyer moving." Pretty short and not-so-sweet.
I should add that since that moment, my behavior has been clear that I'm done. Not replying to her text until conventient for me, telling her (without arguing) when her behavior is crap instead of taking it, not initiating ANY contact, etc.
And I can feel the reply in her. Just got a TM from her about something my D said that was funny. I just replied with a smilly face. She's increasing the reaching out to me in small ways. A couple weeks ago, I was sending HER those types of things and now they are the other way around.
X,
I thought I was 'piecing' many times. Perhaps I was. But in hindsight, I do not think so.
First off, my wife was not in any good frame of mind. I am not going to try and convince you that 'life crisis' or the more common term 'mid-life-crisis' exists. I believe what I believe and that is all I need. To me, my wife had a mid-life crisis. That helped...alot.
And while this is a summary, I can already see this growing long.
My wife and I, have two children. We lived in a large apartment. Our friends moved in next door with their 2 children. We had 2 cats. Our friends were always over, including a friend mutual, who had no job, little reason to get one and more or less lived at our house when he wasn't sleeping at his parents house. My MIL moved in with us, she brought with her a dog.
Now our house was big, but it was always crowded. My complaint was that it was always crowded, and we started lossing sight of us. When that feel on deaf ears, or rather...ears that maybe understood but we were...unwilling to change the dynamic. I turned to video games to get away. My failing. That game became more important than anything else to me.
My wife turned to our slacker friend.
In the Summer of 05 we went on a trip just my wife and I to pick up MIL's car and drive it back to Anchorage. It was a great trip just her and me, and once we got back I jumped right back on the game.
In Sept I noticed things were 'wrong'. They had to be pretty bad for me to notice anything at the time. Too late, too little and all the wrong things. EA
In Oct. our mutual friend removed himself from our lives. Well not my wifes. PA she was still at home.
In November, she took time for herself and stayed at a hotel over Thanksgiving weekend. PA She was still at home. I found DB then.
In December, I told her to take time for herself. She stayed at a friends house, female. She still saw OM, I did my best not to contact her. PA. On Dec 19th the night of the school play. I saw her we talked nicely I thought things were well, we parted company I got home and my MIL was so very angry she drove by the OM's house. Saw my wife's Jeep there and went ballistic on her. My wife came home and we talked. Yelled. Went to bed. My wife stayed home until the first week of January. PA still going on.
Jan 06, I thought things were going well, but knew differently, she needed space. I found things that indicated she was still sleeping with OM. By this time I knew, but she was lying about it, I let myself doubt what I knew. PA. She went to stay at her friends house.
Feb. 06, I stopped by her work saw the flowers OM sent her got into a fight at her work. Denied anything other than friendship.
Still at firends house. PA.
May 06, still at her friends house, she would occasionally call to talk to the boys every other night, maybe every third night. Tried doing family things on weekends. PA.
Apr 06, My wife takes a leave of abscence from her work, to go to California and Colorado. To help her Father and clear her head. I cracked her email by then. Since OM had gotten a job working for the company my MIL worked for, I also knew through her that he had taken a week off of the same time frame.
I told myself that if this wasn't a last fling type of thing (without telling her, so it wasn't a boundary, because the spouse HAS to know too) I was done. She had gotten a storage unit, and I asked her for the code; just in case anything happened and I needed to get into it.
He got back fro his trip and I checked her email it was far from a last fling thing.
I took all of her stuff from my house and jammed it into her storage unit.
Then the next time she called me, I told her that I was done and I didn't care if she lived with him at his parents house, or slept outside, she had no home here.
Needless to say that didn't go over well. She felt like I tricked her. I just laughed and said, yes, I suppose I did.
We talked on the phone over the course of the next few days weeks and it actually got nicer?
Early May 06, I allowed myself to get hopeful, I helped her pick out an apartment when she got back, went to look at a bunch with her, she ended up getting one a block away. Not the one I wanted her to get.
We talked of me moving in when the lease was up, we talked about her having a deadline to get rid of OM, and how it had to be...careful as he was and is a bit...off. Stalker. Oh and...PA still.
Set the deadline for Jun 15th. An annivesary of sorts for us.
When we went out as a family, my youngest wanted me to hold his hand, NOT her when we crossed streets or parking lots...that killed her.
She is open and lets me know when he stops by and calls. I am spending time over there. Our boys start sleeping there and we split the week.
Jun 16th, I drive by her apartment, his car is there. At night. I pound on the door until she answers. It takes awhile. She comes outside. "You were having sex."
"Yes, it was goodbye sex."
"Oh that wasn't LAST night?"
"He isn't taking no for an answer."
I go inside, Sit by the fireplace where he is sitting. I smoke, I tell her that this is f-ed up. How all she has ever said is nothing but a lie. She gets defensive.
I stand up, look at both of them and laugh, "You know what? You guys deserve each other. Don't talk to me unless it is about our boys or our bills."
She starts yelling at me.
"All I hear are lies coming from you, good luck, I'm done."
The next day, everything else that was hers I leave on her driveway. While I am loading up another carload, she pulls inot my driveway and tells me to stop she wants to do this her way. I tell her I don't care about her way, I want it gone now, so either its on her porch or I'm throwing it away.
We get into the biggest fight we every had. She claws me, and I push her away, because of that, because of me pushing her away I hit her head against the side of our house. My fault in that, she comes at me with nails, I put my hand on her chest to keep her off of me.
She believes I was trying to strangle/choke her.
I keep telling her that if I was she'd be dead.
We have come to conclusion that neither of our memories of that afternoon are to be trusted with all the anger going on.
She leaves. She filed a police reort on me, but begged them not to arrest me when she found out it was standard operating procedure when a domestic violence charge is filed. Turns out they didn't arrest me. She listned to the OM and his parents in filing the charge.
Well...she calls me to tell me stop leaving her stuff in her driveway. I ask her if I should just throw it away then, she says no, and I say well this is how your getting it.
Summer of 06.
Anytime she called or emailed me and it wasn't about our boys or our bills, I would delete the email after scanning it, or if it was onthe phone, I'd say; "So we are done talking now?"
No happy faces, no ok's.
Nothing.
PA still going on.
In Sept 06, the 16th? She called and before I said anything she begged me to listen to her. She wanted one last chance.
I told her I needed to think about it.
I did and we took it. With Boundaries and ground rules.
No OM, no PA. When he did come around and he would she had to tell me. When he called she had to tell me. I could look anywhere in her house and on her phone, until I trusted her again. We would keep our seperate apartments and Neither of us would tell the boys about this. I would leave getting rid of OM up to her, in her way.
Start slowly.
To be honest I expected her to fail. I...wanted her to fail.
Oct 06, Halloween.
She is working at a bar, that night, that day she talks and suggests we could just be friends. I say as long as OM isn't the reason...ok. Friends. I wasn't surprised. In the bar she doesn't wear her ring...makes sense working. In the bar I dance with cute pirate chick. She comes out on the dance floor and yells some choice curse words at me. To say I am...stunned isn't the right word.
I follow her behind the bar grab her left hand hold it up pointing out the missing ring and yell the words back. I go outside she follows.
She loses her job, on the spot but we talk. We talk, I saw the yawning ledge in front of me, and while I was tempted to jump into it, I pulled back and we talk. About our R and sit outside in the cold for hours.
EA? PA? don't know. Don't think so...EA yes. PA...really don't think so.
November 06, she goes back down to California to finish helping her father. I'm checking her email, she meets a guy she connects with, similar problems.
EA...possible PA 1 night stand hard to tell. I don't know. I never brought it up.
Dec 06 - current
piecing.
Every day is easier than the one before it.
Every day I piece.
Everyday until I die.
My wife was broken with her MLC, she came out of it fragile. She is stronger now than she ever has been. Just as 'we' are stronger now than ever.
We have been through hell together.
We talk about it occasioanlly. Not in a fight way, but more quiet moments when we are grateful.
We only regret the pain we caused the other, but we never regret that it happened, what we have now? It wouldn't have happened any other way.
Jack - First, thank you! I hope that didn't open old wounds for you and wasn't too painful to write. As I read it, I felt guilty having asked you to do that, but thank you. It was very helpful to me. After my first piecing attempt failed, I was inclined to say "well, that's it. That was the second chance, game over." But not necessarily - as your story shows.
Second, I'm with you on the life crisis. My W is in crisis. No doubt about it and it's way bigger for her than her relationship with me. Now she would say that I'm the cause of all of it, but chicken and the egg, you know? Which came first, hard to say. Anyway, she's in crisis. She was 36 when this started, is 37 now, so don't know if I would call it "mid-life", but it's the same for sure.
I think I am where you where in the Summer of 06. Will she come back for the next chance? Who knows? I sure don't, and I don't think she does either. Do I want her to? You bet - but only with a real commitment and ground rules. No more fake piecing. Will I win either way? Absolutely. I already have.
What you do not see in that summary, is the change in me. The positive changes she saw in me, or the good times we had, even if she was living a double life at the time. (With or without my knowledge)
There are some who will only point to the boundaries I put down. And tell people this is how Jack did it, this is what he meant, and this is how he did it. : )
Well, I, Jack am saying in part, the boundaries when properly placed work, but only in conjunction with the changes in yourself. Learning how to make changes monitor results, learn to communicate...DB.
The LRT? is called a Last Resort, I very much tried everything before going to the Last Resort as the name implies.
And...your welcome.
Not that painful...I felt a little passions when I was writting it ; ) but the old wounds? They are scars, and more healed than I thought.
The bonus?
It might help you.
AND then next time somone asks for it, I can point them here.
It's been a really tough week. W is continuing to reach out to me. It's (very) small, but evident. An example: she just now sent me a text that she's depositing her paycheck tomorrow. I reply "ok". (BTW, that's a 180, normally I would have asked the amount - she's self employed -- but not this time). Now, that seems like nothing but she's never done this before and that's one example of several small ones I could list.
Now, my problem... A week ago was in a good spot emotionally. I felt like I had let go, I was having fun meeting other women (Nothing serious!) and was moving on. Now, I'm back in the soup. I read this board constantly, I think about W, I hope and pray for her return, I have no interest in other women (even though I now have several chasing ME!), etc, etc.
Do I really think it's changing? No, I don't. Do I want it to? No doubt. I just don't know how to balance moving on with keeping at least a flame of hope alive. I seem to be all one or the other....
It continues. She's reaching out to me more and conversing (via text, anyway) longer. I respond, but that's about it. Interesting game we play here, isn't it gang?
Earlier today she took the kids shopping for Father's Day. She sent me a TM asking about a particular book for my father.
I replied that I wasn't sure if he had it, but I got it for myself a couple weeks ago and joked that "I guess you're still in my head".
She replied: "sorry I'm still in your head".
Me: "it's ok, there's plenty of room". (fun fun, jokey jokey guy!)
Her: "well I know that I'm not your favorite person"
Me: "You're exactly my favorite person, I just get that it's not mutual" (Not sure I should have said that, but oh well)
Her: "Well, lately I'm not"
I didn't reply. She can feel the loss and I want her to!
That was a few hours ago, now more....she keeps texting me. I just reply in a non-needy, fun way. Nothing more. She's texting me right now telling me about how she/kids got me an iPod for F-day and she's setting it up all by herself. I follow the basic rules, I stop first - leave her wanting more. She's leaning. Come on honey, lean lean lean....you can do it.
W just now: "I don't mind you coming to dinner with us after D's karate class" (this is a weekly event).
Me: "Maybe, we'll see"
W: "Up to you"
Me: "Ok, thanks"
I'm thinking: can't accept all the invitations. It was funny, because this week after D's karate class, W & kids get into her car to go to dinner. I get in my car. We drive in the same direction (which just so happens to be the opposite direction from my apartment). They turn off and I keep going - we honk at each other as I pass them. It was totally obvious that I wasn't going home. I'm sure that fact wasn't lost on her.
For 8 months, I chased her. I tried not to, but in retrospect, I did. Now I'm really not and she's Starting to chase me...
Really missing W today. I had the kids Fri night and all day Sat - dropped them off this morning. Had a great time with them. Was happy and fun when I dropped them off today; didn't stay too long.
W asked me last week if would go to dinner with them after D5 karate class on Tuesday (her actual words were "I don't mind if you come with us".) At the time, I replied "maybe, we'll see" Yesterday told her that "yes, I'll join you guys. Thanks for the invite" She replied "you're welcome. Are you sure you're ok being around me?". I replied "I am". Her: "ok, me too". I guess that's a baby step. I should be thankful, but a little hope is very difficult.
Really tough day today. I miss her so much. I love her deeply. Why would she do this to us?
I'm a pretty fit guy. Exercise 6-7 days a week; generally eat healthy. Size 34 waist. Bought a box of Krispy Kreme chocolate glazed doughnuts today. Ate the whole box in the car on the way home from the store -- about 5 minutes.
I'm not crying but I feel like if I let it go I could flood my whole apartment in minutes right now.
I'm going to work out. I have doughnuts to burn. lol....
W just had kids call me. Normally, I call them before bedtime. Chatted with kids then W gets on the phone. Very nice. She says they are very tired and will most likely go to bed early and she wanted them to call me first. That's great, but what's even better is that she hasn't done that before, in fact about a week ago I called at my normal time and the were already asleep having gone to bed early. Also, she was very nice on the phone. We chatted for 2 or 3 minutes (I was upbeat and fun) and then I ended the call (first!). That's all good...
Just scared if I let myself get hopeful again. Been so hard to be hopeful and then not and then hopeful then not. I feel like a fighter all black, blue, and bloody trying to decide if he can go one more round in the hopes of getting the victory. Mouthpiece in. Cup on. Gloves tight. Let's go. Ding ding.
A whole Box...Yikes. I'm pretty sure I'd puke that up.
Anywho, sorry your day is rough. I believe that is okay to just let go sometimes. Wasn't it Rosie Greier who sang.."It's alright to cry." (you are about the right age to remember Free to Be You and Me.)
Since you moved out have you had any conversations about the R or do you just avoid it? Not that I'm suggesting one need to take place, just curious.
Her response is kinda strange, at least to me.
I think those who work in mental health offer special challenges to us. I mean they aren't too keen on trying a lot of what's out there because they don't believe in it or are just tired from their jobs.
I'm sure you W's work takes a emotional toll on her (I'm not sure if I asked you what she does exactly)
Does she know exactly why you left/moved out?
Hey man -
Not really any R talks since I moved. I moved because she told me that she was "dead inside towards me" and wasn't interested in working on the M. I took that as "done done done" and got my own place. That was 6 weeks ago. In hind sight, I see how much I pressured her since coming home from Sep round 1. Didn't mean to, but I did. Since that I really got myself in the mindset that it was over and felt it. I stood up to her (not just "yes, dear"-ing everything she said). I've called her on Crap Behavior ("I will respond to your messages when it's convenient to me") and I went pretty close to dark. All of that is what got a reaction from her. Too bad it took me getting to the place that I was done.
So in the vein of do more of what works and less of what doesn't, I'm keeping all that going, but slightly nicer - I give her a chance to talk to me whereas a couple weeks ago, I didn't even to that (i.e. before if she got on the phone I just said "ok, bye". Now it's more like "hi" and let her talk for 2 or 3 minutes before I end the call). We'll see where we go from here. My lawyer is on vacation this week, so that's good. I was thinking I may stall that a week or two anyway and just see what happens.
As for her career - yeah I think that was most of the problem. I believe that this all came to a head when W became depressed as a result of her work (she's a therapist that works almost exclusively with suicidal, teenage girls - and she works 24x7 (I can't tell you how many 2:00AM phone calls from a kid attempting suicide she's gotten) - what a toll after several years of that!). I wasn't there for her - I told her on multiple occasions that I didn't want to hear about her work because I couldn't handle the emotions of what she does. I'm 100% sure that that was the spark (now, I had PLENTY to contribute, that's just what light the wood on fire so to speak). Will she ever acknowledge the role of her work? Doubtful. If given a chance will I be there for her in the future with regards to it? You bet you a$$ I will.
Managing expectations is so hard. I find myself driving to work this morning thinking "maybe today is the day that she changes her mind." WTF am I doing? I might as well be thinking "maybe today is the day that rich uncle I never knew I had will die and leave me a fortune".
Someone once said:
"A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
Over in NewComers, Pickle has this quote. I needed it today. I'm not ready to quit.
I have turned off all my dating profiles. I'm not ready to give up (even though I already did!). I'm back in the fight. W can bite me if she thinks I'm letting "us" die (but I'm sure not going to say that to her, lol!). Now I'm fired up and ready to go!
Ok, I have a question. As I've said before, I'm not religious, but I am spiritual. I do believe in God and I do believe that God has a plan. Too much has happened in my life for it to have been "accidental". That's just me, I don't judge if you believe differently. Now my question....
I pray often for W's healing, and hopefully, our reconciliation. Sometimes I ask God for a sign to fuel me so that I can keep going and working. Sometimes I feel like I get that sign...maybe it's a ray of sunshine that pops from the clouds just as I ask for a sign. Today, it was a date that cancelled on me seconds after I asked God if I should stop trying to move on and recommit to healing my marriage. Who knows what it could be. Here's my issue, (a) are these really signs or (b) do I make them up in my head because I want a sign? In other words would I just see a red traffic light and say "see God wants me to stop" or a green one and say "see God wants me to go"? Or are they real? It's enough to boggle the mind...
Ok, I have a question. As I've said before, I'm not religious, but I am spiritual. I do believe in God and I do believe that God has a plan. Too much has happened in my life for it to have been "accidental". That's just me, I don't judge if you believe differently. Now my question....
I pray often for W's healing, and hopefully, our reconciliation. Sometimes I ask God for a sign to fuel me so that I can keep going and working. Sometimes I feel like I get that sign...maybe it's a ray of sunshine that pops from the clouds just as I ask for a sign. Today, it was a date that cancelled on me seconds after I asked God if I should stop trying to move on and recommit to healing my marriage. Who knows what it could be. Here's my issue, (a) are these really signs or (b) do I make them up in my head because I want a sign? In other words would I just see a red traffic light and say "see God wants me to stop" or a green one and say "see God wants me to go"? Or are they real? It's enough to boggle the mind...
I used to believe in some sort of sign, but for the most part I think they are not significant. I'm not super religious and my situation hasn't changed my religious habits like it does to a lot of LBS's here. I mean If I wanted God in my life more, I'd hope I'd want him when times are good, not just when I have a crisis.
But that is just me and if they work for you then there really is no harm in getting some of that encouragement as I see it. I often do jokey stuff like Magic 8-Ball, horoscopes, next song on the radio, etc.
I won't begrudge you the sign seeking.
The only time I did have something close to a religious experience was about 6 years ago. My W and I were having a some difficulty conceiving our first son. So we were trying for a while and we went home for Christmas to visit or families. We didn't tell anyone about the issues.
I was in church on X-mas eve and I was thinking about our problem. I was getting pretty bummed out. So I was just standing there thinking then out of the blue a sense of calm washed over me and I got the feeling I was getting a message that said, "Everything will be alright."
It was strange and it put me at peace with things.
Christmas morning, my W and I are lying in bed at my moms house talking before the madness starts. She looks at me and tells me she pregnant. Everything was alright.
Now I don't know if it was me picking up on unconscious signals from my W, or my psyche's way of dealing with the stress of everything or it really was divine thought.
but in the end, It didn't really matter.
Thanks, H. I sometimes get that calm, peace and "it'll be alright" feeling too. I know what you mean. I love it when it comes...
3 points for me. I may still be down by a million, with seconds to go in the fourth quarter, but I got 3 points tonight--and that always feels good.
On Monday's I pick up the kids and drop them off at W's. Normally she'd be home already. Got TM "running late will be there shortly, sorry", I reply "I get how it can be. No problem". Her about 15 minutes later: "Thanks for that. Almost there." (BTW, me bitching about her work was always one of our "things"). Point 1.
When she gets there, she asks me if I can show her how to press the reset button on the garbage disposal. Sure. I do, but no workie - it's jammed. I get under the sink, pop it off, 15 minutes later works like new - very Manly of me! Her, "thank you for fixing that". Point 2.
As soon as it's fixed, I'm taking off. No need to hang out, got places to go (and I really do!). But first, "hey mind if I grab my hiking boots from upstairs before I go?" - Her: "no problem". VERY mysterious of me! (and I am, for real, going hiking this weekend - no games here). Point 3.
I hug and kiss kids, say "later" to W and take off without hanging around. Whole time-frame maybe 25 minutes from the time she walked in. Now if I could just score 3 points EVERY 25 minutes, I'd be home by lunchtime tomorrow! lol... Not holding my breath, one point at a time.
Dinner with Kids and W tonight after D5's karate class (per W's invite that I had to "think about"). Bought a new shirt in a somewhat different style from my norm. Wearing cologne. Just went to the gym to get a bit of a pump going. Getting my fun/funny attitude working. Man, I'm going to be one sexy beast -- well, at least between my ears, that is. If she doesn't want me, maybe I can pick up a waitress. lol.
Last 24-36 hours have been good. What's the worst thing that could happen to me - she going to divorce me or something? Oh well, that bomb already exploded.
XYZ,
A secret?
If MY wife doesn't want me, there are a ton of women who would.
That is coming from a happily married guy. How happy?
I did this once. Everyone gets one big screw up. I love her, and I got the been to hell tee-shirt to prove it. : )
Jack - So I mentioned that I dated a bit after I moved out. I've stopped that and taken down my profiles. Why? I was never ready to date and didn't even want to, but I HAD to prove to myself that I wound't die alone. Know what I found out? I'm one hell of a catch. There are TONS and TONS of women that will date me. I had no trouble at all and that includes the 80% that wouldn't touch a "separated" guy. If/when I'm divorced (and ready), I will have my choice of women. Once I realized that, my fear (a la Harrier's thread - and H, I'm sure this applies to you as well) evaporated.
I've decided that I don't want another woman. I want W. I may not get her, but I'm not ready to quit. Not even close.
J3B - You told me once that I should become my own hero. I will, but my second and third choices will be you and MitterMan. One day, I promise I'm buying you a beer. Of course, I'd have to know your name and where you live and that may be a challenge, but if I can survive this whole thing I'm sure that would be a piece of cake.
XYZ-love it, man. Wow, you seem to have a similar sense of humor as I do and an almost identical frame of mind as I have right now. Really just started feeling the shift last week when I REALLY started goin' dark and the 180's for me..not her. It just feels so empowering and so right w/o being mean, etc. Keep on moving bro. It's amazing how much support and real life stories to relate to, here. Cheers!
D1 - Me too. What was it about last week? My mindset now: (1) I want W, but that's not up to me (2) Nothing to lose so get the hell over what I can't control (3) GAL and have fun (4) Be Dim - after all, why would I reach out to somebody that threw me to the curb? (5) If she notices, that's cool, I may give her another chance. (6) Happiness (and love) work in this order: decide, do, feel. Not the other way around despite what W says. This game is not over, but I've won.
X, you know, I think you learn by doing. And, from being who I really am; confident, friendly, fit, handsome(inside and out) knowing & believing I deserve nothing but the best, laughing, being unreasonably happy--check out the book, Way of the Peaceful Warrior. Not being pompous, just happy and fun-lovng, ya know. I too, love my wife and do want her back, but not who she is right now. Life is good even in the face of mine being turned on it's head. I'm piecing together for the world to see--whether w is in it or not. think I read somewhere on here, in order to truly live life, it first must be shattered.
Home from dinner. All-n-all I'd have to give it an A-. I was fun, funny, happy guy. Looked good, felt good, ordered something new (that even got a comment from W, "that's not what you usually get") Generally good conversation with W. Lots of eye contact. She asked about my work and I talked about it in detail (that was always a big deal for us, me not discussing my work). Asked about her work and family. Made some jokes. Even got a few smiles from her. Good times.
Only one even close to R item: She asked about my how my brother was doing. He's much younger and newly married. I relaid a conversation I had with him about him working too much (he's a lawyer and works 6 or 7 days a week). I told him how work has been a major issue for me in my marriage and that if I could go back I would trade places in a second and work a normal schedule so that I could be with my wife. Work just isn't worth it. W replied "he doesn't get it, does he?" Me: "I don't think so, but I wish he'd listen to me and learn the lessons I've had to learn the hard way". That was the closest anything came to an R discussion.
Only negatives where: little background first, last time D5 stayed with me she asked if I missed mommy. I replied "yes, I miss her every day". Maybe not the best answer, but honest and spur of the moment. Well apparently she shared that with W. Towards the end of dinner, D5 says "daddy, mommy says she doesn't miss you". W jumped in to explain that D5 told about the conversation and she was trying to just not confuse her. Well, ok, but that stuck like a kick to the ribs. I recovered quickly, though.
Only other negative was that W was on her BlackBerry pretty constantly working with a patient in crisis - that was the biggest (by far) issue that I had with her and probably the thing that brought everything to a head. She didn't even try to give the appearance of that changing. I just ignored it like it wasn't going on.
Lastly, kids VERY clingy when I left. Multiple kisses, hugs, "we don't want you to leave daddy", etc. How any PERSON could see this and not feel it is beyond me, but somehow W at least gave the appearance that she didn't mind it, although she told kids "we'll call daddy after bath" - that'll be in about 10 minutes. Maybe she has a glimmer of heart left in her.
I have no expectations, but it'll be nice to see if there's any followup on her part. I'll go back to be dim. As Sparky has said "catnip is sniffed, it does't do the sniffing".
Otherwise all good.
I'm on cloud freaking #9 - just got TM from W: "I was nice to have good interactions with you last night, you didn't irritate me :)"
My reply: "I enjoyed it too and you didn't irritate me either ;)"
W: "good"
(nothing more from me, leave her wanting more)
I know that's not much, but the cat is peaking around the corner. Just stay calm, she has to come to me. Note to self: don't f this up.
Feels kinda like that first date when the chick calls you the next day to say she had a good time.
One more note: I realized during this process how much of a "ponder-er" W is. In other words, when we used to fight, we'd talk, (I thought) resolve it, and I would move on and forget about it. The next day (and sometimes for several days), however, she was always upset again. I never got it. I understand now how she thinks and replays things over and over during a period of days or weeks. That's good, she'll replay this positive today and tomorrow and so on....
TM from W: "Is it too late for therapy"
(I jump up from my desk and fist pump the air just like I'm from Jersey or something)
Me: "not for me. Would you like me to call you?"
W: "About to drop off the kids, I'll call you after."
Me: "Ok, please do"
Waiting. Careful careful, don't scare her. Slow slow slow. This is where I messed up last time by going too fast and no ground rules. Learn from that mistake.
Talked with W: She told me that she'd been thinking about some of the things I had said and agreed that she was pissed off and maybe not entirely fair. I validated her by saying that I think we're both pissed, and probably both about 80% legit with somethings that weren't fair to the other. She agreeed and would like to keep the living conditions as is (i.e. separated) and try marriage counseling. I agreed and told her that I would want a "pro-marriage" counselor so that ideally we are both healthy and happy but also married. She agreed. We chatted a bit and I told her thanks for this. She said it was difficult, but wanted to do it.
Piecing round 2 started and I couldn't be happier.
J3B - any and all advice is much appreciated here.
I guess I have the sign that I've been looking for....
F-ing amazing. I really (not just pretend) get to the point where I know I'll be fine with or without her, I get confident again, I detach, I become fun again, I GAL, I'm mysterious and ..... she starts to come around. Whoda thunk it? Answer - everybody here that's been through this. She is so text book. That's a lesson - she's text book to this point, she'll most likely continue to be. Don't rush, lead, but don't rush. Stay confident. Continue to GAL. Talking to myself, that's can't be a good sign.
DUUUUUUDE
I am frickin' sitting in my office smiling like a nutjob.
i am so excited and happy for you right now.
At least the good part is I think you are better prepared for the second go-round.
I know from what you told me in the past this is a HUGE step for her. I think you acknowledged it as such.
you know you are just at the beginning #2. all the stuff from the first go-round will serve you very will - the main being patience.
Incredible!! X, ditto what H said. As you know, I'm at the point of really, really feeling good about the GALing/180's/dark. Definitely will be following your progress so we all can learn. So happy for you...take your own advice, bud--it's working!
100 times on the blackboard....
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I will not screw this up (again)
I am frickin' sitting in my office smiling like a nutjob.
You and me both, brother. You and me both.
Trying to find the balance between dim & no pursue and just a little bit as w is now interested in piecing - but no pressure and slow....
I have the kids tomorrow night. Sent TM to W: "if you don't have other plans, you are welcome to join kids and I tomorrow for pizza night".
Her: "I may have plans tomorrow, how about tonight?"
me: "Sounds good"
I took that as a really good interaction. I made a no-pressure offer, she had plans, but came back with an offer. I think that's great. Same plan for me as the other day - no pressure, no R talk, just fun and attractive.
I agree X.
I do not want to be the cold water in your shower.
She has a lot to prove to you still. Right?
Do not remove those burdens of proof because you become hopeful/excited/desirous.
When this all starts the hard parts are: dettaching, GALing, coming to terms, working on ourselves.
In Piecing, I guess I'd say that hardest part for me was: not letting my hope outpace her abilities to move forward.
Whenever I did I got burned.
Which I quickly learned...was my fault. Not her telling me that, me realizing that.
Pacing; is critical.
"I guess I'd say that hardest part for me was: not letting my hope outpace her abilities to move forward."
Really like that Jack. I hop I'll be able to join the piecing group eventually. X-take your own advice and also build off of your successes. Happy for you..
I couldn't agree more. She needs to prove just as much to me as I do to her. I am hopeful/excited/desirious, but not in a rush and I don't want to be looking forward to piecing round #3. Would rather do it slow and right this time....
WoooooooooooooHooooooooooooooo!
Had dinner with kids and W. At start of dinner, W reaches under the table and grabs my hand. She places my ring in my hand. When I look at it, she says "will you put that back on please?". I replied "do you have yours on?" She shows me. I wait. I say to her, "I want to do that, but I need to know a few things first. First, if I put this back on, I need to know that I'm never taking it off again. And second, I will work as hard and for as long as necessary for us to repair this, but the only thing I won't do is do it alone. You have to be just as committed and I need to believe that."
We sent the kids to play video games within eye distance, but out of hearing distance and talk for about the next hour. I'll jump to the punch line....I'm wearing my ring tonight for the first time in over 2 months. It feels as good as the first time I put it on 9 years ago.
Other topics:
(1) I told her that I insist on marriage counseling and I will not move home until we are well on our way to reconciliation. She was fine with that.
(2) I told her that I would not resume a sexual relationship with her until I felt like there was emotion behind it and not just physical thing. She agreed. (how's that for role reversal- talk about a 180!)
(3) She declared, multiple times that "she's committed." We agreed that we have lots of work to do but we both want to do the work. We also agreed that slow and steady is way better than fast and shoddy.
Long road ahead, but I have a full-blown PARTNER. I'M PIECING! For real this time!
I'm at my place and I can't stop smiling......
Well, you're not the only one smiling X. : )
Thats a big change from the way you started this thread.
Now all you have to do is: Strive. Work, and never forget the lessons learned.
Thanks, J3B. Your help has been worth it's weight in gold. Hard to believe I started this thread that way only 2 weeks ago...
Lots can change, usually starting with attitude.
Don't get me wrong, and please, please do not think this will be easy, it won't be.
Times when I fought/argued with my wife, when I had to take a deep breath and reign myself in. I could see how continuing down would be like jumping off a cliff with glee in my eyes and hate in my mouth.
It took alot of self control to take control of emotion and remember how to actually communicate.
as for the beer?
: )
I appreciate it. Sometimes its the thought that counts.
X
I know the road will be a challenge. But I am glad you kept your heart and mind open to your W. Jack was right (as Doc Brown would say "the future is unwritten" ;-) )
J3B - I need some of your sage advice. I can see that I'm already at risk of falling into the trap you mentioned above and I'm trying to avoid it...
After close to a year of dealing with a WAW, I feel like I (finally) got to a point where I sort of understood her (at least to the point where a WAW can be understood). I guess what I mean, is that nothing surprised me any more and I understood how my words and actions would be perceived and interpreted.
I totally lack that insight now in piecing and I'm confused. I don't get the mindset of the former-WAW or understand the process they are going through. I'm hoping you can enlighten me.
Here's my current sitch:
* "ILY" has returned in full force (both verbal and written) in both directions. She tells me she never stopped loving me.
* We both agree that we'll stay apart until a bit further in the process.
* We have had some really great conversations over the last couple of days.
* Phone conversations are light and non-stressful with a tone that is similar to "old-style" us.
* She told me it feels good to be able to safely tell me she loves me
* She texted me that she "feels much love from me, again" but hopes "baby steps will be ok" - I respond that I am patient and in no rush; want to do it right not fast.
* She asked me tonight to let her know if I am out of touch for a while because I didn't reply to some texts today (I went hiking and didn't get them)
HOWEVER....
* W doesn't want to change the schedule by adding extra meals together or anything to confuse the kids - Exact phrase is "we should wait" to do that.
* She says "we have some time" before I move home.
* No kissing or touching of any kind yet
NOW...of course I'm willing to take as long as it takes. I do not want to pressure her at all, but I would like to start understand her mindset because some items (no extra time together "yet", etc) seems so contradictory to me and understanding on my part makes it easier to do....
I mentioned your warning because I was disappointed about her comment on no extra meals and can see what you were talking about...
Thanks in advance
Ok, so I've fallen in the trap you warned me against, J3B. Very little contact from W today (what I did get ended in "ILY", so I should be thankful for that). I keep wondering, "what's going on, why isn't she calling me, doesn't she want to spend time with me", etc etc.
I just don't understand it. Are we together or are we not? Five days ago, I got it. We were divorcing and that wast that. Now, I don't get. She wants to fix it, is talking about the future and permanence. That's all great, but no day-to-day stuff. Pre-bomb we used to rarely go more than a few hours without contact, then it slowed way down but isn't back picking up.... I don't know what to think any more. I don't know if I should reach out to her or keep it at her initiating. I don't get the rules any more!
People are right. Piecing is just as hard.
A bit of clarity this morning.....
(1) I need to keep doing what has worked, GAL, don't chase - let her chase me, no neediness, etc. Only problem here is where to draw the line on time together and when to initiate that.
(2) Remember the cat. The cat wants to play, but she's not curled up in my lap (yet). Don't jump at her and scare her off. Small, reassuiring gestures but nothing big or fast.
(3) Patient. She said "baby steps". She said "go slow". She said "take our time". Her actions are consistent with her words (for the first time in 10 months, lol). Why do I want them to be faster? She's doing what she said she'd do. Let her do it at her pace.
X out.
and....it's only been 5 days since she de-fused the bomb. Give her time....
In Piecing, I guess I'd say that hardest part for me was: not letting my hope outpace her abilities to move forward.
Whenever I did I got burned.
Which I quickly learned...was my fault. Not her telling me that, me realizing that.
Pacing; is critical.
As always, right on J3B. I already think this is harder than before. Before it was about acceptance and moving on; now it's about NOT moving on TOO quickly. This is a weird game we all play.
I need to keep doing what has worked, GAL, don't chase - let her chase me, no neediness, etc. Only problem here is where to draw the line on time together and when to initiate that.
I found, for me, that I would offer to spend time together, but that I wouldn't be upset if she declined. My GALing, ability to do so, helped.
I also knew that she required 'alone time' and truth be told so did I. It wasn't quanity, so much as quality. Prior to all of this, we had plenty of quanity...what had faded was quality.
I did have similar thoughts as you do. I just had a bag of 'tricks' (although I hesitate to call them tricks) to fall back upon.
I feel pretty crummy coming here and griping given how much my sitch has improved and how lucky I am to be where I am and where I'm heading, but at the same time this has gotten so much more emotionally difficult for me since the turn-around.
I didn't realize just how much I had let go and detached. Every time I saw my W before, I just put it out of my mind how much I wanted her and I started to block how much I loved her. The pain is all back - in full force - now. In many ways it's as painful today as it was in the beginning, although without the physical symptoms of depression.
Just dropped kids off at "their" house (even though W referred to "our" bed the other night. That was nice.). W doesn't want to confuse the kids, so nothing has changed. I did take notice that she's still wearing both rings, so that's good and we had several good text interactions today, but so so so hard to just say "ok, guys, daddy's leaving now" and have W walk me to the door as a friend might.
I should know better since this is piecing round 2, but it's bad. I just want to grab her and hold her and .... but I can't, know I can't, know that if I did that would be a disaster, but that doesn't make it any easier.
I'm so impatient and when we were "done" and there was no more waiting that was easier than back to this land of the indeterminate wait. Will it be tomorrow? a week? a month? 3 months? a year? longer? Who knows and nobody can tell.
I'm going to go to the DoJo (I'm a Black belt in Karate) and kick the ever-living sh&* out of somebody now....
IF I may...and...wait no ones going to stop me unless you stop reading.
Will it be tomorrow? a week? a month? 3 months? a year? longer? Who knows and nobody can tell.
This way of thinking is determental.
When you were dating her you didn't think like this. You enjoyed ever minute you were together, and looked forward to the next time.
You're going to tell me its different this time.
You are right.
Before you were filled with hope, now its doubt.
As for feeling cruddy about what you are posting? Don't. Do not, what you are going through is tougher than most can imagine, you hit the nail on the head, with your thoughts about it.
Anything worth having takes time and effort.
I can tell you X, that I do not regret any of this for what I have now. It was all worth it.
X.
Man do I feel your pain. I don't know where the heck things are now. I too am
Looking at a future of dropping kids off @ "their " house
JTB
I'm curious. What was your W's take on the process? Do you think it was as hard on her too. I think we tend to be self focused in this process. I want to believe my w is under it too.
The piecing process right?
I know it was hard on my wife as well.
Similar thoughts, wondering if it was all going to be worth it. Had I really changed? Wondering if any little fight could blow up and be our last.
I brought a deal to the table and we both agreed to it.
If something could be taken one of two ways, please give the benefit of the doubt, choose the good way. IF I wanted to be mean, there would be no doubt about it. Likewise we both promised not to hold things in or back. That way hadn't worked in the past.
The real plan to piecing?
Little things over time. Knowing that YOU are going to be doing alot of the work, sometimes all of it. Little things over time and she fell in love with me again...or rather...allowed it to bloom in her again.
I hear you guys and this all makes so much sense. Here's my problem (as if I could narrow it down to one! ha!).....
My W and are still separated (and BTW, I DO think that was a good thing. Some will disagree, but in my case I don't think we would have moved in the right direction without the space. She was too pissed and couldn't see past it with me there.) We agreed that I won't come home for until we're well on the way in this process. Fine. She doesn't want to change the schedule and confuse the kids (i.e. no dating, no extra time with me over there, no dinners with them over here, etc. That means small steps are hard, and there's a BIG step looming (her being ready for me to come home and telling me that). That means the normal approach of gradual over a long time won't work here. We have to be verrrrrrrrrrrry gradual and then a take BIG jump.
Tomorrow night is "family" dinner night. That night last week was the start of the un-bombing process over the next couple of days. I'm 100% convinced that that timing happened because of the attitude I took into that dinner. I need to get my head out of my rear right now so that tomorrow night I just might be confused with Don "XYZ" Juan.
I meant to mention.....The first big step is for us to start MC. She told me last week that she would select a counselor. I have veto power. On Friday she told me that she would email some colleagues (since she's in the field of work) over the weekend for referrals. I'm not going to mention it until she does. I want to see how long it takes her to select a counselor. She is super busy at work, but if it were me I would have chosen 10 within a day. If she can't find one within a week or two, I will start to question her commitment. The question will be what I do with that.... On the other hand, if she selects one soon, I will take that as a really great sign since I'm not pressuring her at all on it.
I'm hoping/praying that she gives me some options in the next day or two. I know I shouldn't set deadlines, but come on....it's just a couple of phone calls....
I remember reading Sandi say one time that when she came back, the first step for her was "to be willing to be willing" - that came before being "willing" to come back. I was confused by that before, but now I think I understand. I think what my W has really said to me is "the only thing that has changed, is I'm open to trying". The current facts are the same, she's just open to changing those facts in a positive way instead of only a negative way. I MUST NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO GET AHEAD OF HER....
X
A quick Q. How have you handled telling family members? If at all?
My w's parents are totally in the dark. My family knew there were issued in Nov. My bro probably knew the most.
Right now i'm at my in laws house. I love them to death and they feel the same. It's tough on me reminders of my W and better times everywhere.
Everybody knows. When we were sep last fall, it's with my parents that I stayed for 11 days. So, my (her's as well) immediate family (parents and siblings) have known of problems all along. That was it until a few weeks ago.
A few weeks ago, I got a strong head of "moving on" and changed my FaceBook status to single. Nobody noticed. About a week later, my W changed her's (and totally blocked me! A little one-up-man-ship.) Well, cat was out of the bag. My email went crazy with family asking what's up. I explained.
Well, last week after talking, I joked with W, "can I be your FB Friend again?" She made a big deal out of "re-friending" and then "re-marrying" me on FB. So, now the whole family is in on drama. They are all being respectful and not pushing, but all praying.
Weird. A week ago today (tonight actually) all the positives started. That was Tuesday with the ultimate culmination on Thursday night. Since then, very quiet. No real change at all, in fact little action at all. I guess that's normal. Take a step forward, wait and judge before the next step. I guess that's cool, but come on honey I'm ready for the next step now....
Oh boy. Ever have one of those conversations that you knew were GOOD, but were really hard and therefore you feel like crap anyway? That's rhetorical. I know you all have.
Just had dinner with W and kids. After eating did what is turning into a trend and sent the kids to play video games. Had a really good, heartfelt and very difficult conversation. We talked about the upcoming therapy process. I did good listening. Lots of eye contact. Good discussion. Remember, my wife actually is a therapist (although she doesn't work with couples.) I asked her if I could ask some of her professional opinion just so I could get my head straight about expectations. She was happy to help. First, I asked what her confidence factor was because earlier in the conversion she had used the word "if" a couple of times. She said "very high". She went on to say that she was "totally committed" and very "hopeful" but this process would be long and very difficult. I told her that was great, because if she had said "oh I give us 1 in 10", then I'm not sure I could do that. She said "oh no, it will be very difficult and a lot of work, but I'm committed and hopeful. I'm not looking forward to the process but I am looking forward to the results of it." She commented several times that we have 11 years of "stuff to deal with. It will take some time."
I told her that I knew nobody knew how much time but in the ballpark did she think weeks, months or years. She replied months. I asked if she thought I'd be home by the end of the year. She said she wasn't sure. I told her that I was fully committed and not rushed but just need to get my head around what to expect. I said "if I'm thinking 2 weeks and you're thinking 2 years, that would be a problem." She understood.
I asked about time together. She replied that that would evolve as therapy progresses and we have the tools in place to make the most of it. I agreed. That makes sense to me.
She talked about how her brother was asking if she was sure she wanted to do this and he was concerned about her. Sorta pissed me off. He's the guy that has been my BIL for 10 years and it's like he's trying to talk my W out of staying with me. WTF? He even told her that "he'd probably kick my a$$ if he knew I was saying this". She told me he was just trying to protect her and I understood. Still pissed me off, though.
I have come to the realization just now that after 10 months of this, I'm only half way through. I have at LEAST 6 more months to go. God give me the strength to make it.
I feel just whooped. This is the best my sitch has been in nearly a year. No doubt about that. But months more to go. Intellectually, I know that's nothing. If I gave up I'd have months of divorce proceedings. Then months (years?) of healing. Then dating. Then relationships. Then marriage. That would be years - several at least.
So, 6-9 months to be back with the woman I love sounds like a drop in the bucket. She's committed. She's highly confident. We're building something better than we've ever had before. But I'm exhausted and deflated. In the morning I'm going to pick my self up and get started on that 6 month journey but right now I want to just cry in a beer.
Just sent W a TM: "You are worth the effort. I love you and look forward to a lifetime of loving you."
Her: "As are you. I love you, too."
That helps. I think this process would be so much easier on me if I was a home. That'll be a mid-term goal for me.
I'm happy for you X.
Really,
I need to get back to setting goals for my baby steps. I got away from that and now I think they are as (if not more) important than ever....
So, for me:
* Keep doing what worked.
* Let W come to me.
* Stay busy
* Practice my patience
* Don't Don't Don't fall back into neediness
Baby Steps that I'm looking for from her:
* She'll call me or text me when there's no real reason
* She'll schedule counseling (tomorrow will be 1 week since she said she would do it, but as of yet has not...)
* She'll schedule time together (with or without kids) that wasn't on the "normal" schedule
That's it, just would like to start to see some of those....
maybe time for a new thread. He he. (Geez, you'd think I was a mod or something)
the only think I would caution against is the idea of baby-steps from her. it could create expectations which could derail on of your goals - no neediness.
i think the better approach, as JTB, has said is to enjoy those moments rather than see them as steps by her.
Back in march when things started to turn better, I could see her baby steps. Appreciated them, but didn't look for them.
the MC is a different issue as I think she needs to do that.
You know what's noodling my noodle right now? What if she doesn't schedule the counseling? What do I do and when? For years, I've had issues with her not doing what she said she'd do. One week ago tomorrow, she said she'd do it. Then Friday she said she'd email some people for references over the weekend (I don't know if she did or did not do that - I haven't asked and don't plan on it).
So, best case she has made progress but doesn't have options for me yet. Worst case she hasn't done anything. If it were me, I would have been done 10 minutes after I said I'd do it. It is possible she's testing my patience. She has said several times that I need to be patient.
What if another week goes by? Do I say something? Let it go until she does it? Just don't know....