Hey, my first thread locked!
Msm, you wrote:
Ah, sometimes you just want to shake them, wake them up & say I'm not the cause of ALL your unhappiness!!
Believe me, I said that point blank about 8 mos. ago. Glad she is finally getting the memo.
Previous thread:
Standing on the Edge
Hey native, I found your thread!!
You know, any of your wisdom & a mans POV is welcome on my thread, even though my path is different. Have a good day!!
BTW - What is venetian plastering that you mentioned?
Msm,
Venetian plaster is a generic name for any number of imported (or domestic) Italian stuccos used for decoration of interiors or exteriors of buildings.
You can check out the website of the company I did my training with at
http://www.italianplasters.com The finishes can be quite pricy and require skill and an artistic eye.
Thanks for finding me.
Hey Native,
How's things going?
Hi Kenn,
Its odd. W wanted to spend Saturday together with D and I. She wanted to spend some time Friday night with us as well.
It is a milestone that she has made the distinction between me and her issues. She has clearly come to the understanding that she has trust issues that do not relate to me, that preceeded our marriage and that what happened to us would have happened to anyone she would have married.
This is a 180 from ' You're the problem! '
So she spent the morning with us. Unfortunately she had a little nausea ( I think she is feeling anxious ) and did not enjoy herself as much as she could have.
I am wondering what my next move should be.
She is on her monthlong medical leave.
She has also talked about buying a house. She is tired of moving and renting. Her lifelong ambition is to be 'settled' in one house for the rest of her life.
My God, she is only 32. She would want to settle in one house for the rest of her years.......
I still think she is looking for peace in things, like having her own home that she will be in forever....then she will be at peace. I don't think so.....
As for me, the time together today was not that great. She did her own thing and did little to interact in any significant way.
She did allow me to hug her. When I did, she physically relaxed because she carries a lot of stress.
She did ask if I was still going to the church I have been going to since she left. That was odd. Don't know what that means, but it meant something.
Hey native, Good to hear your W is taking some ownership for her actions & feelings. With buying a house, it doesn't seem like she is totally facing reality yet (since she can't afford her car).
Not much you can do really. Sometimes, there is no next step, as you wait to see how this step unfolds.
So what fun things have you been doing with your D?
Well, we are going to Disney World this coming Saturday. Sure, we will have a lot of fun. My parents are going with us.
Otherwise, we worked/played in the yard last Sat. And Fri. I took her to work b/c she was acting sick the night before so I kept her out of school, but she turned out to be fine.
So we went to a farm supply place near the job I was doing and played with baby chicks they had for sale there. She did not want to leave.....
Weather is great, Spring is here and so far, my work is doing well, when it seems that everyone around me is struggling or worried about their jobs.
I know we don't have the same beliefs, but I have to be honest, when my wife left me with all the bills and the mortgage ( $1400 which she used to pay), I did not know how I would be able make it, so I prayed that God would provide me with the work I needed to take care of the bills and a little more. Normally I would not pray for such things, because I don't think a relationship with God is about money (and to be honest, I presumed myself self-suffecient) but I had no idea how I was going to survive financially based on the past few years.
So far, since August, I have had enough to pay my bills and a little more.
I am just grateful and plan to keep praying.
And too, somehow, all this seems to be part of a bigger plan.
For the first 8 mos., up until W had her breakthrough, I was angry. I felt betrayed, rejected, and in general treated unjustly after all I had done and been for her.
Then, as she started to have some mental/emotional breakthroughs, I began to see that truth was just beginning to enter her clouded thoughts. Regardless of the pain all of this has caused me, I am glad for her that she is beginning to get real with her issues. And truth and God are intertwined as far as I'm concerned. So, I see the illusions are being peeled away for her.
I hope for her healing. I may not be there for her when the full scope of truth finally dawns on her, but I wish her the best.
Have a great time at Disney World, native!!!!! Oh, I bet your D is so very excited!!
Going to be a long drive....
W is acting strange again. Had 'something else' to do besides going out to eat with D and I tonight as a kind of goodbye dinner. I figure she went on a date or over to one of her parasite friends homes ( all her friends are vampires....they are empty, needy people to whom my empty, needy wife plays Mother Theresa to.)
What a loser....
I still cannot reconcile how much faith I had in her to be a woman of integrity, and how far in reality she seems to be from that.
In retrospect, I think she has had one foot out of the door for about 4 years...
Hey native, Sorry to hear your W is on the merry-go-round of emotions. It's quite oblivious she isn't happy with her current life either. My H picked not so good friends too. I knew straight away they were messed up. It took my H almost 2 years to figure this out. Some people just don't see that.
Try to be your W's friend & nothing more, if possible at this point. Again, you cannot fix or help her.
Hope Disneyland is fun!! Ken's going there too.
Hey friend,
I can't believe we were at Disney at the same time. You 47 Me 46 - you young daughter - me young daughter - You without your wife - me without my wife - Did your daughter have a smile wrapping all the way around her face?? Mine too!
What a crowd! And so much fun. I have to keep this cryptic because wife may see it one day but @#$##@ ^^&& **&^&^^ which means - Disney was easier without her. Actually I still have a lot of love for my wife so in all fairness to her she has never had a fondness for crowds or able to put up with much inconvienance. Being just my daughter and I we went where she wanted and it was much easier to please a party of one rather than a party of three.
Hope you both had fun also!!!
By the way
God would provide me with the work I needed to take care of the bills and a little more. Normally I would not pray for such things, because I don't think a relationship with God is about money
Just to share a perception - you didn't ask for money. You asked for the opportunity to do honest work and provide for your family. There's difference and your daughter has a great role model.
Let me know how you enjoyed the parks. I am a bad dad.... let daughter stay at park until 12:30 and ride the goofy roller coaster until she was too tired to run from the exit to the entrance. Smile was still on her face while sleeping on the way home
We are in Orlando today, after 10-11 hrs driving yesterday. I woke up feeling pretty bad. I think its a cold.
trying to rest while my parents take Emma to the pool.
Weather is really nice, a bit warm. Anole's (little lizards) everywhere to my daughter's delight. Fresh kumquats in the back yard. Very tropical, love it!
Tomorrow its Animal Kingdom. W called back, sounded upbeat, having barbecue with family today.
Nice to know someone else has ridden this roller coaster too.
I think I felt like I could help her when we met. I've seen a lot of women choose men for that reason. Didn't realize how easy it was to fall into that...
I don't think she is very happy, even with everything she thought she needed. But I think she is slowly realizing it is because of her problems. I can be just a friend, I can do that.
Frankly, I have a lot of things I want to do professionally but with her riding on my back could not have pursued them. Now I am able to dream and try some new things, so it's not all bad.
I think too, Emma gets more undivided attention from both of us, which I know she likes. A friend of mine who grew up in a divorced family said that was one of the perks he got, so I am thankful for little things.
Kenn, so glad you had a great time with your daughter at DW!
We are going tomorrow for the first day. Trying to feel better as I have a cold.
Any other recomendations?
We hit Blizzard Beach (water park) one day and it was a blast.
Other than that we just hit the park early and got "fast passes". In the middle of the day we did all the non ride stuff - train, parades, shows then hit the rides again as the lines died around 8pm.
If you do the train get her to the very back and she can stand there with the conductor. they will let her say "all aboard" on the radio. That made my daughters afternoon.
Have fun buddy! I am off to Easter Dinner with wife, daughter and inlaws. No expectations except that it will be great food!
hope your having fun!!!!!!!!!!
Still here at Disney with two days to go. Perfect weather today, a bit warm. We did the Magic Kingdom today...crowded!
Emma enjoyed the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse and the Pirates of the Carribean, but was a little worried the latter was going to be too much for her. I made the mistake of taking her on the Mt. Everest roller coaster on Monday and may have scarred her for life. Overall, she is having a great time.
W called around 10 am to find out how we were doing. It was too noisy to talk so I told her we would call back later. Had daughter call her and did not plan to speak until she requested to talk to me. Seemed upbeat. She had her freaky friends over and I could hear them in the background.
She was in a friendly sharing mode and wanted me to know she had made an offer on a house.
Of course this just poured cold water on my parade. It tells me she has not interest in reconcilliation, and it is a bit of a slap in the face as she has left me with the mortgage on a house that is unsellable and about 50K in non-mortgage debt.
Frankly I feel she has chosen to avoid her responsibility and I am left holding the bag. Yet, let me be quick to say, it is a small price to pay to be off the emotional rollercoaster that was life with her.
But to say she has lost my respect is an understatement.
If she tries to force the sale of the house to get off the title, I will push for her to assume half the other 50K in debt. I think it is time to consult a lawyer.
Hey native, Good to hear you are having a fun time!!!!
Sounds like your W called only to try & ruin it. Yep, we all hit that point, where it's time to at least consult a lawyer. But forget about that for now - you're on vacation.
Hope the rest of your days there are fantastic!!!!
Everest....that's an awesome ride. My daughter didn't want to ride it the year before but did so because everyone else was...then she wanted to keep riding it.
It's funny. My daughter kept asking me about the Swiss Family Tree house. Why were they there, Where did the stuff come from, How many were they? Is that story not around anymore for kids?????? I told her we would get the book and read it - she said no lets get the movie and watch it LOL! 21 century ARGH!!!!! Maybe I can get it to download to my cell phone HA! HA!
Sounds like you guys are having a blast and as a friend told me...It's the happiest place onthe planet
If you get some time to kill take her out to Downtown Disney. There is a magic shop in the sidewalk mall. They exhibit magic tricks all day long. My daughter was facinated, and didn't want to leave. SO! there is a cuban restuarant right across that sidewalk with an outdoor cabana bar. You can order a mojito without ever taking your eyes off your daughter LOL! Dads have to have Dad time
We actually finished up Disney at the Epcot center for the last two days. I always thought it was a boring name, but the world showcase was pretty neat. Visiting all the different countries was a lot of fun, esp. since I like to travel. Sure there were parts that were a bit fake ( mainly in the matls. they constructed the buildings from...the curse of my architectual background that I would notice.)
Emma was having fun chasing ducks but she really came into her own when we went to Morocco. When she saw the belly dancers she was mesmerized. It wasn't long before she had a belly dancing skirt on and was out there cuttin a rug with the rest of them.
The girls who were in the bazaar area where the music and dancing was going on were very impressed with her. One asked me where she took lessons. When I told her she had never had a lesson in her life, she was shocked. The one who put her henna tattoo on said she had 'it' (the spirit of dance?) in her.
And she was hamming it up too. At one point she ended up on her knees and leaned back all the way to the floor while dancing. This became her signature move. Or was it the belly wave that became her signature move ? Either way, the women there were blown away and my daughter, having become intoxicated with the attention and interest they paid her spent the rest of the night dancing and trying to get everyone's attention, which she did. All the way to the car....
Overall, I had some really special times with her and we connected even more deeply than we had before. We had a lot of fun, and I know this will have been a very memorable time for her.
Oh yeah, her grandmother bought her that skirt and I got her some belly dancing music. If you can't fight em.....
On the way home, I read a very appropos book for my situation. It was called 'Forgiving the Dead Man Walking' by Debbie Morris.
I would recommend it to anyone who's spouse is struggling with rape trauma. It is very helpful re: understanding the anger, distrust, loneliness and depression that a rape victim can struggle with and filled me with renewed compassion for my wife.
I did bring it to her when I dropped off some clothes for our d this evening. She asked about it but things did not go the way I had hoped, but more along the lines of what I expected.
She did not want to read anything heavy, felt like she was living it, knew everything that woman was going through anyway, and would have rather that I would have told her how it helped me to understand her feelings rather than me try to give her something to fix her.
Of course, in her anger, she was misfiring all over the place and missing badly.
I left as there was no way anything constructive was going to happen, but resumed the conversation by text, which actually ended well enough, but lasted for a solid 50 minutes.
Her convo was still peppered with accusations here and there, but along with some admissions about the hardness of her heart and not feeling anything and her long 7 years of lonliness, I think I was able to convince her that I was beginning to understand her struggles.
Though the whole convo was unpleasant and bumpy, I think it was right on target because it really hit a nerve with her.
Some of her early texts were irrational. By that I mean she completely ignored her part in my becoming upset and characterized my behaviour in deciding to leave as 'storming out' and 'blaming' her.
Not quite the reality.
Her tone was bitter and sarcastic for a while, but I kept it on a non-accusatory and understanding tone.
She still blames me for not knowing what to do with her rape trauma fallout for the last 7 years of our marriage.
Msm, you may be the only one who knows this, but I couldn't figure out what our problems were related to, much less know how to respond to a deeply wounded rape trauma victem who has denied her trauma and its effects for 7 years.
Anyway, we are far from happyville, but it helps me to feel a little better to understand where she is coming from and that it's not really about me.
And it enables me to have a lot more patience and understanding for her raging. She is hurting deeply.
I can't fix her, but I threw out a rope in suggesting she read the book. She may not read it for some time, but she would do well to see how someone else found meaning and healing in spite of suffering a much more traumatic situation than she has described to me.
Hey native, Great to hear you & your D had a wonderful time!!! A nice escape - I bet. What nice memories your D will have!!!
Unfortunately, for you w/your W, it seems you are guilty by association, in that you are a man. Her rape, her being a victim, has been blamed on someone else & that might every well be appropriate. It seems like in your M & what she is saying to you, that she is still in that victim, blaming role. Only she can break free of that. Still, it is good you are trying to understand her & let her know this. Ah, if she would only read some books about men & see your POV. Since leaving you, here life has not been a bed of roses. She must see that. I hope she does read the book. If she cannot take any steps forward & stop with the past, you cannot take many steps forward w/her either.
Good to see you are back though, missed your posts. So are dance classes on the horizon for your D?
Native,
Let me make sure I understand your sitch - your W suffered a rape 7 years ago and is still coping with the effects?
I was also raped on 2 diff't occasions while in college. I denied both of the events for close to 4-5 years. I had a lot of anger & bitterness towards men who would look at me sexually and I never understood my own reaction. I didn't date for years & years b/c I was afraid to get intimate with anyone. Finally one night after watching continued coverage of the Duke rape case, I had an awakening that I was indeed raped.
I went to IC for close to a year to sort out emotions, the damage I had done to myself while denying it, and how to move foward. I was finally able to confront my fears..... but it hasn't been easy.
I am happy to answer any questions you have about how your W may feel. I may be able to give you more insight into her feelings???
I am truly sorry for both of you to be dealing with this. Doesn't seem fair someone else's bad decision can so deeply impact a person and their Rs.
Hi Native,
Good to see you had a fantastic time at Disney!
How are things going now?
Native has left the building??????????????
how are things???????
Hey Msm, Kenn!
I am not on the computer as often since I lost my free internet connection. I will probobly call TW and get my own wireless soon.
I have decided to sell the house b/c I am not keeping up with the bills ( temp. slowdown in work) and before that was not getting ahead. I have found a nice place to land however, as the night manager of a bed and breakfast about 20 min. away. No mortgage, utilities, free cable/wireless and I will be able to have the time and $$ to re-invest in my buisness and education. Perhaps really make a career change...
Ah, if she would only read some books about men & see your POV.
Really!!! When I mention that a lot of men do this or that, she says its only me. I only say that b/c I know either from experience or having confirmed it in my reading. But she thinks I'm rather unique in my thoughts and actions.
I think she is extraordinarily myopic and has a hard time realizing how her actions have affected me and have harmed our relationship.
Again, if it wasn't for our daughter, I would let her go. Not that I don't love her. Just that it is so unrewarding to hang on right now.
She is buying a house, a small crackerbox with a lot of deferred maintainence, but it will be her own where she can sit and look out the window for hours at a time ( a little exaggeration) without me pressuring her to help me clean the house or some other mundane and otherwise unpleasant duty that life brings.
Sometimes I wonder if what it will take is me starting to date someone else. I have told her she has until the end of our seperation period ( and after our divorce?) before I begin to consider dating again.
Right now, just trying to navigate survival...getting the house ready to sell, readying my new place...dealing with credit card debt....a lot on my plate. House goes on the market on the 16th.
As far as belly dancing, I am going to google that for our town in a few minutes...she is still interested.
Thanks for being there everyone!
Hello Fitchik,
Let me make sure I understand your sitch - your W suffered a rape 7 years ago and is still coping with the effects?
She only just seemed to acknowledge her anger and trust issues with this new counsellor about a month ago.
I had a lot of anger & bitterness towards men who would look at me sexually and I never understood my own reaction
She tried dating a little but her reactions to the guys she went out with made her realize she is not ready and has trust issues. She confided this in me recently. God I hate feeling like the lbs, but it's some small comfort that she recognizes the fact that her trust issues are not limited to me. But she goes back and forth. She carries a lot of anger, and it often is still directed at me.
I am happy to answer any questions you have about how your W may feel. I may be able to give you more insight into her feelings???
I don't know where to begin....I want to know so much....how do I reach her....what can I do so that when the dust settles and she has sorted out her trauma so I can be the one she decides to be with....and how can I ensure I will still want to be that one when and if she does come around. I am so tired of her unhappiness and anger.
Does any of this have to do with her general inability to deal with stress or change, her low energy levels, depression, general fears or was some of this part of her before ? I don't know if you can help here or not, but I'm sure your exp. can shed some light here.
What does she need from me? How do I act with her? Should I wait for her, should I move on, should I pretend to move on, but really wait, or do I just let go......
I have long vascillated between anger and compassion with her....
I am getting burned out with it all. But if the dark cloud could lift from her, I'm sure she would be a much more attractive person.
Her feelings..........it seems that feelings dominate her....feelings I cannot seem to grasp....
there were times she wanted me to go with her to this dark place of despair, to understand but I was unwilling....I felt it was unhealthy to dwell as much as she did on such obviously hopeless and dark thoughts.I wish I would have listened anyway.
Hey native, Good to see you are back in the building!!!
Loosing your internet, that's a bummer.
Your new living arrangements sound bitter sweet. So you will be managing a B&B? I always thought that would be so cool.
Sorry, to hear there is little good news with your W. Not much you can do for her. We each are in charge of living our own lives. Make sure you keep yours happy!!
I don't know where to begin....I want to know so much....how do I reach her....what can I do so that when the dust settles and she has sorted out her trauma so I can be the one she decides to be with....and how can I ensure I will still want to be that one when and if she does come around. I am so tired of her unhappiness and anger.
Does any of this have to do with her general inability to deal with stress or change, her low energy levels, depression, general fears or was some of this part of her before ? I don't know if you can help here or not, but I'm sure your exp. can shed some light here.
What does she need from me? How do I act with her? Should I wait for her, should I move on, should I pretend to move on, but really wait, or do I just let go......
I have long vascillated between anger and compassion with her....
I am getting burned out with it all. But if the dark cloud could lift from her, I'm sure she would be a much more attractive person.
Her feelings..........it seems that feelings dominate her....feelings I cannot seem to grasp....
there were times she wanted me to go with her to this dark place of despair, to understand but I was unwilling....I felt it was unhealthy to dwell as much as she did on such obviously hopeless and dark thoughts.I wish I would have listened anyway.
I am sorry things are so difficult right now. I am glad she is in counseling. That is a positive step.
I know everyone who goes through something like this deals with it differently. I stayed in a state of denial for many years before I decided to admit what happened to myself. I had many confusing emotions I did not understand where they came from - like anger and fear towards men. When I finally realized what had happened, I went through some anger, lots of sadness, frustration, etc... I also went to counseling, which helped out a lot in my healing process.
However she deals with it is specific to her. I am sure some of her depression, anger, unhappiness, etc. you mentioned could be a result of what happened to her. I am sorry you are receiving some of it indirectly. I know I tried not to let my emotions affects other people.... but it inevitably does in some way.
The anger, unhappiness, and trust issues will work themselves out with time and patience. I know for myself I didn't date for years b/c of what happened. Finally when I met my H I decided to let down my guards and give him a chance. But it wasn't easy and took a lot of courage and trust on my part. He was supportive and we took things very slow.
The best thing you can do is be supportive for her. You can do nothing to help her deal with her memories and emotions, or heal herself. She has to do the work. But being there to support and listen to her when needed is a great gift. I know having someone stick with you through such a difficult circumstance means a lot.
I hope I have given you some insight. It says a lot about your character to want to help her so much and be there for her.
Hi Native,
Good to see you again. Well... you know what I mean. How's your daughter getting along?
The best thing you can do is be supportive for her. You can do nothing to help her deal with her memories and emotions, or heal herself. She has to do the work. But being there to support and listen to her when needed is a great gift. I know having someone stick with you through such a difficult circumstance means a lot.
I hope I have given you some insight. It says a lot about your character to want to help her so much and be there for her
All the listening and support seems to have not been worth a lot to her. We got divorced today.
Hello Kenn, Msm,
I'm back up!
So, we signed divorce papers and accepted an offer on our house in the same day...wow!
D is ok....complained about missing the other parent when she went from house to house. Other than that she is enjoying her second week of horse camp, something my parents are making possible. She is horse crazy!
ExW seems happier. Apparantly celebrated by going out and buying a $60 digital camera for our daughter for her upcoming birthday, which she suggested we give her together. D will love the camera.
We did have a little spat before signing the papers as I informed her that if she decided to have her new love interest move in that I would do what I had to do to gain full custody. She said I could do nothing about it, she considered it a threat and that she was not a big proponent of living together before marriage anyway.
Last screen was acting up....
Anyway, woke up about 3 am just feeling empty and missing her. I guess thats how D feels about both of us.
What do you do about that?
Oh, kind of a final shot across the bow, as we were talking a bit in the weeks leading to the big day, she said the seperation time made her realise that she did not like herself when she was with me, she likes herself much better now.
Should I take that personally ? My thought is that close relationships hold a mirror up to ourselves, revealing to us things about ourselves whe might not otherwise see, and maybe dont want to. Any thoughts?
Hey native, Its been a long time. Sounds like you have been through a lot lately. Sorry to hear your M ended. Sometimes it is for the best, even though it doesn't always feel or seem that way. Good to hear your D is doing ok. I bet she is having a grand time at camp.
I wouldn't take what your xw says personally. I think you are right in your statement above. I also believe many WAS regret their decisions but will stick with them at all costs. In my own sitch, I guess, I realized too, that I want someone who would stick with me through the good times & bad & try to work the bad times through. Some people just cannot do that.
Hope your days get better! Stay strong!
I guess, I realized too, that I want someone who would stick with me through the good times & bad & try to work the bad times through. Some people just cannot do that.
Amen, Amen to that sister! Totally.
Emma is really enjoying horse camp. It does however feed her need for a steed. She is soooooooo horse crazy! So she is in her happy place right now.
My job with her is to teach her by word and example how to have successful relationships and how to find happiness apart from a person, place or thing, which is where most people look, and most people find instead dissapointment.
Read recently in a bit from Gary Chapman how lasting love requires us to move from receiving to giving mode. that is where we ultimatly find our greatest joy.
Oh shucks! I thougt it was about ME ME ME!
I also find that right now I am in no hurry to get married again, but am a bit cautious.....unless I can figure out what just happened, how can I prevent it from happening again ?
So I have done a lot of thinking about what I have learned.
In fact, an ex-girlfriend and I got together ( she called me, heard I was seperated) and she asked me just that question.
And I think I will get into that in future posts. Cause it helps to verbalize these things. Helps me to know what I know, you know?
Ah, some times, with some people .... do you really think you alone can prevent an R or M from imploding? Finding the correct communication wave length, that both can relate to, is a big key I think. I wonder if people who run away from their problems ever hook up with another that does the same? Who would be the WAS then? LOL
I think your D is in good hands with you. I would also add, to let her express her feeling, even if you don't agree. I think it's even more important when kids get older & the type of bond you have may change at times. Always be a father your D can feel comfortable talking to & telling her problems to. I don't have a very close relationship with my dad, I think because of the real lack of emotion & understanding from him. Kinda hard to explain. Lets just say a few months after my H left me, I told my dad. After that he did not ask about my H nor did I volunteer any info. After I was D, I told him, I was D & he said I was wondering about that. End of topic. Yet, I cannot fault my dad too much, because honestly he has 0 R/M skills.
I'm still working on building my own skills.
Oh, BTW, it would be interesting to hear what you know, you know.
In time, I hope you will post a bit of it.
I wonder if people who run away from their problems ever hook up with another that does the same? Who would be the WAS then? LOL
I have pondered this as well. The guy she is seeing right now is seperated. In which case I wonder if he left his wife or she left him, or if it was mutual.
Don't know how many divorce mutually, but if she left him then how could he feel good about dating another woman who just left her husband?
If he left his wife, then W is taking a huge chance that if he feels unhappy that he will leave W also.
Always be a father your D can feel comfortable talking to & telling her problems to.
Thanks for the words about fatherhood and the important role a father can play in a daughters life. I strive to make up for the things she doesnt get from her mother ( interaction, warmth)but you ggave me more to consider.
I think I will move on over to Surviving the Big D forum, bc I am in the wrong section now for my sitch. Hope to see you there msm.