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I want to stand, but I think it's hopeless.I thought I was doing okay. Really. The being not okay is back with a vengeance. Ive done the 180 to perfection (almost) but still his crisis continues and even deepens. He is slowly but surely slipping away. In the beginning he still wanted contact, but not so much anymore.
Same ow,,,the strength of that R is astonishing. Its a long distance thing. He travels to see her all the time. At least 50% of the time he is with her. When he isnt, he calls her constantly, even when both of them are at work. They spoke for over 90 minutes on Friday morning alone. This isnt that u usual either.
Ive been patiently waiting for this to fizzle out but all it does is get stronger and stronger. They seem to be the exception, not the rule. How on earth will he ever see the end of MLC when this R is so intense?
I miss my husband terribly and Im tired of pretending Im okay when Im not. Im tired of pretending to him that Im over him when all I want to do is tell him how much I love him.
I thought I was moving on successfully. Clearly I am not. The ache in my gut is always there. To lose someone you love to another person has to be the worst.
He had no intention to divorce but now his ow says he needs to end his emotional attachment to me. So now he is looking into a divorce. I think its really because she wants to marry him.
How do I end this h3ll Im in? Agree to the divorce and just let her have him? I cant take much more of this.
Adios, hugs to you. You sound very burdened.
You should feel very proud of yourself for standing for two years. It's very hard to do, and you already made it through two years!
A relationship built on lies and the destruction of a family is a house built on sand. A relationship built that way indicates that the OW is a very messed up person. Let her push for marriage. It may be the only way for H to hit rock bottom!
Long distance this whole time? Rest assured, it may require a live-in situation to end it. Long distance is easy.
Your situation is not at all unusual. Not that that changes your pain, but it may comfort you to realize he is following a script. That always helped me.
One thing I am sure of -- there is no way out by through. I don't know why you know so many details of when they talk and for how long, but please stop looking! You have to go dark on that stuff. Don't look. It will only hurt you and will not change it. Let him float away, he can only come back when he is through with the floating. You can live your own life as if he is not coming back, and keep your love for him in a box that you are willing to take out if he asks you to.
You might get some comfort by looking at Rejoice Ministries.
Adios, detaching is very hard. But it doesn't mean you don't love him anymore. It just means you look for joy between the sorrows and let him go. Let the universe work on him, let his adultery play itself out. You can always take him back if you want to take him back when he is done baking. But you can't do anything to speed up the process. You are a woman of great value, never forget it! Figure out your life's path is, whether or not he is there to walk it with you.
Thank you Garda. Your words comfort me.
This R that he is in will not be anything but long distance for a few more years at the very least. He cant relocate where she is and earn any money. She wont relocate here because she doesnt want to. Why should she? He is out there all the time anyway. The relationship will never fizzle.
I didnt think I was standing. I dont want to stand. But I dont want to let him go either. Someone said somewhere that until we are healed, we dont know if we are truly standing.
I know the details of calls - he uses my cell phone. It hurts to look but nothing changes if I dont look and then I have no idea where I stand with him. The calls tell me its time to forget him and move on. Tells me the r with her is stronger than it ever has been,,if anything more intense with each passing month. I can also see he called a family lawyer last week. At least I wont be blindsided (again) when this gains speed. I almost want to file myself. Then its my decision and not his, or hers. They already got to decide my marriage was over. Why let them decide when Im to be divorced too?
((((((Hi Adios)))))
sorry for your pain
i totally get it
My best advice would be to heal you
feel the pain
stop looking at the cell
get some therapy and work toward letting him go
You can stand for as long as you like while letting him truely go
This is the best way to see if there is a chance for reconciliation
Because he can probably still feel your energy focusing on him, he will be more inclined to continue
wish him well and let goooo
now the focus is on you
what goals do you have
what hobbies
what do you enjoy
is there a way to connect with a group, church, cause, temple, meetings in your area that would add to your life
new friendships
volunteer
This is what I know and what I think:
My H is 100% an MLC case - every box ticked.
My blindside was spectacular - not a clue and it was because he encountered the OW and he allowed her in.
I am a master at getting a life, and so busy with job, side business, church, concerts. travel, hosting dinners, I didnt have to try to do this - I am naturally this busy.
I am master at the 180 - never initiate contact, never talk about the elephant in the room, ie,,marriage, OW, etc. As far as he knows I am completely over him and done. He has no idea how much I hurt - I never show it.
Where has all this got me after 2 years? He is further away than ever. He was more present and clingy when my pain was obvious. Now,,his relationship with OW is deeper than ever. She wants him to get divorced so that is now what he wants too - so she feels secure (so he tells me). He is deeper into this relationship than I ever thought possible and the deeper it gets, the further away from me he gets too.
So I cant help question the advice given to us LBS. it hasnt changed a thing, only made it worse and my H more distant than ever before.
Then I compare that to Westos story and see that her H is home after 2 1/2 years and he showed interest in coming home well before then. My H after 26 months is further away than ever. Then I wonder if this is even an MLC Im dealing with. If its not, then why does he check all the boxes?
MLC is a very tricky beast because each crisis is unique to that person because of personality, childhood and coping skills.
Your h is most likely in the deep throes of replay and the ow is heavily invested in getting him to do what she wants, i.e., divorce you and spend all of his time, energy, focus and money on her. MLCers do tend to get worse when they are w/the OP, especially is they are being pressured by that person to get a divorce. Also, MLCers will become distant and in some cases disappear from the spouses, former friends and familieis.
In the beginning, about 12-24 months pre bomb drop, he had already begun to distance himself from you. When you were in pain and clingy, he felt guilt and shame for what he was doing to you and he didn't want you to know about the ow. Now, that things have changed and he has eyes only for the ow and you have been fired as his wife. In his eyes, his life has changed and unfortunately, you are not part of his new life. Yes, it hurts to hear this, but this is how they feel at the moment.
The best thing you can do is give him plenty of space and time. Continue as you have been, i.e., living your life to the fullest. One day, he may wake up and realize that he is very close to losing the best part of his past life and that is you. Stay strong and keep the focus on you.
I agree - he is deeper in than ever thanks to the OW. What I wonder is this - should I have NOT done the 180 so thoroughly? I feel it just made it easier for him to jump into his new life with both feet and not much looking back. How would it have been different if I fought for him even just a little bit. All he sees is that I didnt fight for him at all.
Hi
I would not blame yourself in any way
This is his affair, his MLC, his inability to be honest with himself-
If it is true MLC as you suggest, It is my belief that nothing you can do will make them shift
If they are in deep love and infactuation with the OW as my XH was...there was literally nothing I could do
no pressure was the only thing that made him feel safe enough to engage in conversation and that helped our separation process..
Any confrontation on my part lead to a blowout
he was unapproachable
they say that pleading, begging, crying letting them know how much you love them does not help
Now, we each have to read as many books as possible, search the web for answers and make our best choice.
What do we have to loose?
Would it help if you tried one last time to talk to him?
I actually think I did mention to my XH at one point aftrer he moved out and I knew he was with OW
That he could come home
He just looked at me and continued to get in his car to go back to her-
It is a very tricky situtation and only a small few will actually return or try to return in time-
Many here would say no relationship talks..the MLCer sees that as pressure
and do we want them to stay out of guilt?
or because they want to do the work
This is your call and we will support you either way..
pray about it and others will come in to give opinions but as always it is our choice-
I don't think it would have mattered because once they enter MLC, their past life becomes the past and they live in the present fully. If you do have contact w/him, treat him as you would a long lost relative. Listen to what he has to say and do not offer up advice unless he asks for it.
We all have wonder at times about the way we handled things...but once they begin their crisis, things change quite a bit and what we would have done in a normal situation becomes moot because you can't rationalize w/someone who fully charged emotionally.
Focus on today as it is a gift, tomorrow has not revealed itself and the past is gone and we can't change it.
You've give him the best gifts of all: time, space and more time. This is what he needs. You will need to dig deeper for more patience as the MLCer will surely try your patience along the way. When he's ready, he will contact you.
Adios, I've caught up a bit on your thread...all I can say is to follow the advice that you are hearing on here. The best I ever had was to drop the rope and simply do you.
I've worked on myself in different ways that have nothing to do with my ex.
1. I taught myself how to play guitar and will be accompanying a musician friend of mine on a men's retreat this winter...this has helped me decompress mentally.
2. I've taken up triathlon training to help me decompress physically.
3. I am helping with a divorce ministry at church to assist others that are going thru divorce.
4. I've taken over leading a men's bible study class on a weekly basis.
5. I know this sounds weird, but I know it has helped...I am a dog parent to a 100# Rhodesian Ridgeback. We have always had pets, but you can learn a ton from a dog that has nothing but unconditional love for you. It shows you, in a way, that that type of love might have been lacking from our partners. Not to mention they don't argue with you when you talk to them.
Make new friends. Do new things that you have always wanted to do, but didn't. When the marathon of MLC is over you should be a different person as well...a much better version of the already perfect you.
Regarding the closeness of his relationship with OW, she is with a married man! That is not something a self respecting woman does. And if he respected her, I think he would want to start the relationship off on a proper foundation - not one where OW is pleading for him to get a divorce.
If we read about the OW and MLC, we learn the OW is a parental figure and hes using her to work through his issues starting from where ever he was emotionally stunted. That is going to take however long it takes. Either he will outgrow her and wake up or he wont and hell be stuck cycling through his issues.
Either way it is nothing you can control. And she is not worth a nano second of your time. She is not getting the man he was. She is getting a married man who is broken down and confused. They will use each other.
Continue to focus on you. You are the prize!
(((Adios))) Its been less than a year for me and my H has bought a house with OW and they are planning a wedding next July. If it hadnt happened to me, I almost wouldnt believe it. I did nothing wrong but love and support him. Were there small things I could have done differently when I felt him slipping away? Yes...but Im not sure it would have made a difference. My H was conflict-avoidant to the extreme. By the time I knew what was going on, he had already left me in his mind. He knows he treated me like sh!t... he has a lot of guilt and shame... it doesnt matter. He wants what he wants - to hell with anyone else.
The bottom line is that your H is going to do what he wants to do and there is nothing you can do or say to stop it. Telling him you love him may result in him feeling bad for a period of time but it wont change what he is doing. Two years of long distance, as was already said, is easy. For it to fizzle, they would probably need to live together. If I were you, I would not count on that to happen or wait around. Even if it did fizzle, it wouldnt necessarily result in him returning to you...he could just as easily move on to OW2.
Drop the rope. Let yourself heal. Move forward and stop focusing on what he is doing. And for heavens sake, get your cell phone back. Hes a grown man. He can get his own cell phone. Why should you be paying for his contact with OW? He might be upset about it but he will also respect you for it. (((HUGS)))
I appreciate all the comments - thank you.
The last few days I have been organizing the house to get it up for sale. I'm heartbroken. I hung onto it for this long hoping for ,,,I don't know.... a sign that said I should hang on more. I didn't get one. Not a strong enough one at least.
It is stupid to continue paying the cost to live here. I need to secure my financial future without having to rely on his contribution, or my part time job, or having a boarder. If any one of those things changes, then it becomes a financial struggle.
At first, my h was hesitant, and assumed I wasn't ready (or was that projection?). I could have stopped the plans right there if I said I wasn't ready and we would have continued for another 6 or so months before it came up again. But what is the point? So he gets to say when it's time? Him and his OW? Because it suits him/her? I am glad I am going forward - because this is what I decided for my life,,, not them.
I can't help wonder if this will finally end everything. Once we no longer own property together, and no reason to maintain contact,,,, is this where it all ends? Is this where it should all end?
My thoughts are to go very very dark after this is all done. Not NC, but very dark. Seeing him as long as OW is still in the picture at all,,, bothers me too much.
I can't help but be terribly sad while doing these final things to end our marriage. So this is it. How is that right? Some loose morals woman just sails off with my h who once adored and cherised me. I get a shattered life. They get each other.
How does it happen that an instant love at first sight attraction can turn into the real deal? Or real enough that it survives busting up a marriage and then survives for many years after? Especially when the marriage that was destroyed was a decent one?
Adios, you have my empathy and sympathy. Im sorry you are going through this. You will make yourself bonkers trying to understand and rationalize how this is all happening. It defies all logic. ALL logic. Im 5 years in and I still havent seen the ex wobble. Granted, Im not looking. But it seems incomprehensible to just blow up someones life and both of your futures and walk away unscathed. To bear witness to his solid!relationship with her, is just awful.
I always hated hearing that this experience is/was a gift, but if you do the work (painful and tedious work)... one day, you will wake up with the genuine appreciation for this gift. Sounds insane... but its true.
In the meantime, keep trucking along. You seem like you are being sensible with the house and your actions.
Good plan on going very very dark. Its for you and your peace of mind.
What do I do with my anger? Im not even sure who to be angry with.
When MLC hit I followed the DB tactics. No pressure, no R talks, no friendship, give them space and time. Etc.
At first he was a boomerang- clingy one too. Then he was just a boomerang. Now, 2 years later he is barely in my life at all. When I do see or talk to him he is so indifferent, so uninterested. He could care less if we are friends. This one hurts actually because he really wanted to be friends for ages after bd but I flat out refused because of his OW and the advice I followed. Now, he and OW are tighter than ever and Im just ,,, no one important to him.
I will always wonder if the advice to not be friends is good advice or not. It seemed so at the time but look at where I am now.
Once the house is gone and our legal connections severed, there will be nothing at all. So hard to accept this reality.
Is it normal after 2 years to still have anxiety knots in my stomach? They were gone for quite awhile but now they are back. They returned as soon as OW told him she needs him to get a divorce to feel secure. Now he will do whatever makes her happy. Just sick to my stomach most of the time.
It is normal, every time you get a new BD especially.
What kind of woman would want to marry a man if she had to FORCE him to divorce his W first? Do you really think that's a strong foundation? Let them go. It will crash and burn. It hurts for sure. But what they have is not real. Let it consume itself.
What kind of woman would want to marry a man if she had to FORCE him to divorce his W first? Do you really think that's a strong foundation?.
She (and he) have convinced themselves that his marriage to me was a disastrous mistake. Their relationship feels so right and justifies anything they have to do to stay together. Divorcing me is finally going to free him from his mistake.
Will it crash and burn? I wonder. Going into 3rd year with as much passion and intensity as day 1. Its a long distance r too so it will likely go on forever.
I am trying to let it all go and just walk away,,,for good. I am just struck by how incredible it is that behaviour like theirs gets rewarded. Destroy a marriage, shatter a life in the process, and live happily ever after. Even if its not forever (like my marriage) its going to be a very long time given their current passion level.
Ohhhhh! That makes sense. The fact that it is a long distance relationship tells a lot. While you think its so passionate.... I actually see a facade. The foundation for a solid relationship isnt there. They 100% are living in fantasy land because they do not have to deal with real life- every day mundane stuff. Sure it seems hot and heavy, but thats because reality hasnt set in. I dont give it much merit.
Sure LDRs can succeed, but not when its built on a foundation of cheating and lies.
A
Im sorry for your pain-
we have all been there and then looked back to wonder if we did the right thing
Mlcer is a tough thing and depending on each individual situation
I know I tried several ways to approach H
We were friends,
I listened,
I ignored the fact he may have an OW
I was nice,
I confronted,
I didnt talk R,
I also tried to bring it up
Nothing worked in my situation
I was accepting and pretended toward him
I was angry and authentic toward him
I tried to flirt with him,
I acted mysterious..
I even got a real Boyfriend toward the end after the D
He still M the OW
I think each situation is unique with a lot of the same components
A coach once told me to do what keep him closer
and some of it brought him closer
but he never came home-
then I finally decided to let go....
life is short
Today i have a fabulous relationship with my BF
hang in
I feel gut punched,,,again.
I have been clearing out stuff that we accumulated over 20 odd years. From the basement and garage. Throwing out some, setting aside others for a yard sale, and keeping some,
It has been a heartbreaking task - dismantling our lives. Ive done it alone. No help from him - none. Hes too busy enjoying the summer and visiting OW.
He swore he wasnt going anywhere for the entire month of August so he could help clear out stuff and get the house ready for sale. That was a lie. Hes visiting her now for another week or more. He doesnt know I know. . I have taken days off from work to get this done and the house up for sale for Labor Day. Hes taken days off from work to visit her.
The last time I saw him last week, he dropped something off and before he left I suggested he have a look at the items I set aside for the yard sale in case there is something there he doesnt want sold. His reply? Yeah,,,I dont care and then he left without a glance. He was in a hurry to get ready for his OW visit.
This is how little our life meant to him. I dont care. My reaction? I want nothing to do with him. I want him out of my life entirely. I regret that there is still business to deal with before I can do that.
How heartless and insensitive can these jerks get?
Adios,
When they are in the throes of MLC/depression, they do not care about "stuff". They are running from their past and yes, unfortunately, we are now part of that past. They are looking for something that will soothe the emotional pain that they are feeling.
Yes, they will say that they will do such and such and then do not follow through. Typical MLC behavior. Sometimes they forget, something else comes up that is more fun and interesting or they just don't want to face the task. Whatever the reason, you need to keep your expectations at zero at all times. If you don't, you will set yourself up for anger, disappointment, frustration and just plain disgust.
Right now, he doesn't care about the "stuff". But I can promise you this....at some point, when he has a few moments of clarity, he will ask for things that he told you he didn't care about. Don't worry about it...you asked and now you can determine what to keep and what not to keep. Do what you need to do to get the house ready for sale. Do not wait on him to assist you in any way.
Keep the focus on you and what you need to move forward.
Thanks for the comments - they are helpful!
The biggest thing I struggle with is WHY,,, the OW is necessary for so many of our spouses.
I have heard the AP's are often inferior in character and often have disordered personalities.
My H describes his OW to people as 'beautiful' and is always asking people what they think of her. My adult children tell me she looks old and mousey,,, not beautiful. Beer mug (nose always curled up like she is smelling something rotten). Weird mannerisms. Selfish person who doesn't treat people all that well.
What is going on in our spouses head that they see these people as 'beautiful' and think everyone else does too when no one else sees anything beautiful?
I really hope one day he has a revelation and sees her as she is - not beautiful,,, inside or out.... but just nasty.
I just don't get it - why they go for these low life women when one day they will be appalled at their choices to toss everything for them.
Then,,, why,,,, can I not let this part of it go? I've read the advise to focus on me and let him and they be, over and over again. Hearing about the advice, believing the advice has value, is not all there is to it. How do I actually put the advice into practice? I am fixated on the 'why her' part of his crisis. How do I stop? !!
A large majority of the people that our spouse hook up w/are beneath their normal standards. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or so they say. To our spouses, these people do not know their history and are willing to believe anything that they are told. Our spouses want fun, freedom and the ability to come and go as they so please. They are reliving their youth and yes, telling these people all of their thoughts and feelings. The OP is there listening and validating everything they say and they actually believe what our spouses tell them. The OP is nothing more than a band aid and hopefully at some point, the OP will tip their hand and our spouses will see all of the warts and imperfections...but it takes lots and lots of time for this to happen.
We all become fixated on the OP because we are trying to figure out what they had that we didn't. They are nothing. We had and spent the best years of our lives w/our spouses. These OP get the used up part. Trust me, many of them can spot a MLCer a mile away and figure that they will enjoy the ride of the MLCer's spending and having a good time until the money has run out.
Right now, you are very new to the crisis and it's going to take time to settle down and come to realize that you are the prize and your spouse is the fool in all of this because he sees something that no one else sees. Every time you think about that ow, find something else to do. She can't compare to you.
We are fixated because we have to work through it
it hurts but we travel down the path through denial, anger, bargaining, depression into acceptance
its hard work
Recognize that dealing with the oW is difficult..it really is /was for all of us
They pick affair partners with issues...they all seem to
who else would go with a M man
MY XH picked a 28 year old drug addict, she was not attractive, when I saw a picture of her rather repulsive
he M her --they left the area together-he gave up everything for this fantasy life
a business, home and his blood family and kids
he was a normal guy sober,hard worker and dedicated dad until age 40
His last message to me maybe 2 years back was he messed up and He wanted this old friend to call him/help him--and that happened -I arranged the friend to call
he then told this old family friend that he needed out of his current M and was terribly unhappy...he was also drinking and the friend let him go--he was too difficult to try to help-
I also heard they divorced and Im not sure if they got back together-
Itās been awhile. Quick update. H still in LDR. What the heck! I thought MLC affairs as well as LDRās donāt last but they are in the 5th year now. There have been frequent anchor checks but no touch and goes. Is this man ever going to turn back my way? At this point Iām good if he doesnāt. Just wondering if they return after such a long time with no false returns and no touch and goes. Affair is weird and a bit unstable but who can argue with 4+ years?
my ex married his OW. course it took ... lemme think, almost 6 years, and he referred to it as "caving" when he informed our son.
I dunno Adios. Some do come back, and it's then up to the LBS to call the shots about piecing or not. Some never come back. Some I guess stay in limbo for a while.
The most important thing is for you to move forward with your life, regardless of what he does. How is that going?
xoxo
Hello Adios
My XW and her OM are still living together after 4+ years.
Affairs are built upon a foundation of sand. These illicit relationships require enormous energies to maintain, for sand is a terrible ground for which to build if one desires long lasting. The underpinnings of that relationship slip and slide, and will poorly weather the storms of life. Consider from which it was crafted - lies, deceit, cheating, adultery, and such; hardly the stuff of a healthy strong respectful relationship.
Sand crumbles. The foundation can only hold a structure that is of a certain size. The adulterer and the affair partner are emotionally less than idea folks; usually quite broken. Their fantasy of a relationship may have lofty dreams and heights, and falls flat. They continuously scoop up the pieces and pack them together again. Eventually, this effort becomes not enough.
A few different paths can be taken:
One may grow and realize their lustful wayward ways and leave. Usually, this requires much drama, arguing, blaming, and so on. One needs to get fed up enough to actually leave. Yeah, I know, itās not emotionally healthy; realize theyāve only grown a little at this point and require a self-induce shove to actual leave. If that person is our spouse/ex they might start walking a better path. If the affair partner kicked them out, then another affair partner is usually sought.
Both may just get tired. Affairs are emotionally poor choices. Each is using the other. One or two families are broken during the creation of this relationship. Ignoring such obvious truth takes considerable energies; part of that relationship maintenance I spoke of. People wear down. The shinny new exciting boink-fest becomes emotionally drab and distant. The obvious truth no longer capable to be hidden behind infatuation. Depending upon their age (and abilities to cope and heal): Younger oneās breakup and have another affair/running. Older folks wind up giving up and existing as a somewhat couple. Usually quite a sad couple; our once spouse winding away their remaining years haunted by memories of what once was and what could have been.
Remember many of these cheaters also get mixed up in other behaviours like spending, drinking, drugs, and other youthful-feeling-inducing activities (often illicit) to take the focus off their pain. The affair is just such a distraction. It is a symptom, which means little. And for those who continue to live such a life based in such little meaningful purpose, they do suffer.
At any time, a person could, and can, decide to live better. However, that requires a wanting and willingness to change. Suffering and hitting rock bottom is usually required for one to make such a life altering decision. The modern age is far too easy to distract oneās self from their suffering which does seem to prolong the process of self awareness. And can even stall it indefinitely.
Four years is quite a long time, and isnāt. For you, me, and other healthy rational folks, yes four years of a relationship is a pretty good indicator of relationship health. For those in emotional turmoil, not so much.
Most are simply not capable of the requisite emotional growth to form a healthy long lasting relationship. And to have both AP and our once spouse be capable of such growth at a similar time is quite rare. Not unheard of, just very rare. Hence, the tired sad couple outcome.
Less rare is an actual awakening. When such might happen is anyoneās guess. And people, especially MLCers, are a very chaotic system. There is a general pattern and probability of awakening, which does trend downward after a certain time. When/if one would awaken, and what they will do, only God knows for sure.
As a LBS, we live and love our life. Follow our beliefs and values. And give them to God.
Have a wonderful day.
D
Buttrfly, DNJ,,,thank you for taking the time to reply. Iām not surprised Buttrfly that your H married his OW. I would be surprised if it was a happy union however. I think this is the path my H and his OW will take too,,,, they will marry eventually and one of them will have to leave their location and move to the partners location. Iām sure that will be my H. He has been the one to sacrifice everything for this relationship with a single OW. I expect this will happen pretty quick now. Itās too far to drive to see each other and now you need a vaccine to get on a plane. Both my H and his OW are anti-vaxxers in the extreme. So my guess is my H will quit his job and drive out there with his stuff to start a living together life with her. Either that or itās all over for that relationship unless they get vaxxed and I donāt see that happening either.
DNJ,,, thanks for reminding me how broken these relationships are. Itās easy to think itās all wonderful in their fantasy life. I would hate if it was all wonderful. I do know itās not though and have known for a couple of years but still,,, the relationship carries on. How? What is the glue that keeps them together? I M passed the stage of wanting a restoration of my marriage. I know it would never work despite the fact that I would LOVE to hear my H says he regrets what he did. Why is that important to me, I wonder? I donāt want a restoration but I want to hear him say āI messed upā.
Good Morning Adios
They do give up, throw away, everything for that fantasy. Thatās a huge cost; and shame, guilt, and so on; to walk back.
Itās easy to think itās all wonderful in their fantasy life. I would hate if it was all wonderful. I do know itās not though and have known for a couple of years but still,,, the relationship carries on. How? What is the glue that keeps them together?
Itās more a glue that prevents them from leaving.
They are stuck and entrapped, in an unhealthy relationship.
ā¦I would LOVE to hear my H says he regrets what he did. Why is that important to me, I wonder? I donāt want a restoration but I want to hear him say āI messed upā.
Because, āI would hate if it was all wonderful.ā
It is difficult to let go of ego. That need to be right. To be validated. Vindicated.
Hearing H admit his regrets is important to you because you make it important. Not in a manner that holds you back or anything, just a validation.
Itās also part of binary logical thinking. Right and wrong. Good and bad. True or false. We incorrectly conclude, if H is right then I must be wrong. Or for me to be right, he has to be wrong. Nope. Neither is correct.
Each view can be independently viewed on its own for rightness, which is dependent upon the one deciding. Iāve found a pretty good viewpoint is that there are multiple truths. We all hold a certain view/truth of things, and that doesnāt invalidate anyone elseās view/truth or make it false.
If you notice, right and wrong, became true and false. Using right and wrong gets it mixed up with morality. All Iām referring to is the truth of a personās viewpoint, and that is always through their own lens. Very few people are the villain of their own story.
A question. Have you forgiven H?
Forgiveness and acceptance are closely tied. Forgiving requires letting go of our need for vengeance and grudges and such.
Acceptance can be a āfine itās overā kind of a thing. Or a more compassionate understanding forgiving path. Curious where you find yourself currently.
Hope you have a great day.
D
Thanks DNJ, I have forgiven him, no resentment or bitterness, and a lot of compassion. One day if not already, he will see all he lost because of his MLC decisions. My life is good once again, but his life is in shambles and his future doesnāt look too great either. Tough to start all over financially when you are close to retirement. So I feel for him. Itās hard to watch the shocking unravelling of his life. Have I accepted itās over,,,, logically yes, heart wise maybe not quite. I find myself strangely drawn to the idea of reconnecting even though logically I see it as absolutely impossible to bridge the huge chasm from what is the reality now to what it would have to be if we were ever to restore our marriage. I canāt see it working and I donāt want it to work either to be honest. But still,,there is that ātoyingā with the idea at times. And seeing once again the impossibility of it ever working. I wonder if hearing him say he regrets what he did would help me accept it fully,,that itās over and I can let it go. Unless or until I hear that from him, I will forever wonder if he ever loved me. If he does have regrets it would suggest that he did love me and valued our marriage. It wouldnāt change the impossibility of ever being together again, but I would get some peace knowing our lives together meant something to him.
Dear A,
Nice to meet you. Been reading a bit of your thread the past few days.
Please do not ever question the fact he loved you.
I don't know how long you have been together, nor your ages, but normal H definitely did.
Good luck Adios.
Itās now just days away to the 5th anniversary of BD. The first few years there was a fair bit of contact, then last two years it has dwindled to almost nothing or just a few contacts a month. None of the contacts suggested any change in his MLC brain until recently. Last month he asked for my help in finding a tenant for his apartment. Iāve had lots of experience being a landlord while he has had none so I helped for no other reason than Itās just who I am. I would give the same help to anyone who asked. I didnāt assume anything about his request for help either because we are on good terms and it would make no sense for him to ask anyone else.
Here is the part I am wondering about and would like opinions on. He told me he would like to take me to dinner to thank me for my help. In the past we have never gone to dinner but on rare occasions to a pub for a drink and pub food, but never for dinner. He suggested we go to a new restaurant in the area that he had checked out and looked good. So I agreed. He was going to pick me up but itās walking distance from me so I declined and met him there instead. I got there first and was surprised to see the restaurant was dimly lit with candles at the tables, live music and a dance floor with flashing lights. It looked like a restaurant for a romantic date night. He selected a table right on the edge of the dance floor although there was no one dancing being it was a weeknight. But it was a dark atmosphere and we had to read the menu by candlelight. The conversation during dinner was typical of what you would expect if you didnāt know your dining partner that well. Nothing remotely personal but pleasant nonetheless. But I noticed several times during the dinner that he was holding eye contact far longer than typical and I was always the first one to break contact. I was slightly uncomfortable about it as well. Itās been ages since I held onto any hope for our marriage and I now find I resist any thought of reconciling. I do wonder though if he has advanced somewhat on his MLC path.
What do you all think? Itās not much but it is definitely different than it has been since BD. And I find myself moving away from what I see are movements toward me, if that is what they are.
Good Morning Adios
I do wonder though if he has advanced somewhat on his MLC path.
The candlelit dinner with H is interesting. It certainly is different than his usual over the last five years. For the moment, another peak out of the tunnel. And until demonstrated behaviour becomes consistent, treat it as such.
I do believe H is making progress. To what end? That depends upon many factors.
The first few years there was a fair bit of contact, then last two years it has dwindled to almost nothing or just a few contacts a month.
Your H is a clinger; staying in contact over the years. My XW was/is a vanisher; Iāve only had a few contacts over the entire timeline of 4 1/2 years. Hās appreciation dinner does not sound that far out of character. He and you having gone to the pub a couple of times. Iād infer he truly felt appreciative and even sincere in wanting to thank you for your help.
And there in lay his confusion. His feelings return. He quashes them again. He runs. He looks back. He temp checks. He looks away. And by the way, he knows the BD date as well. He knows itās the fifth anniversary, and I suspect will be somewhat stirred by it.
What happens when these folks realize we are not the cause of their pain? What happens when the realize we are not the villain in their story/narrative? When they realize itās a narrative? Some run again. Some look inward. Some run after that too. Some dig deeper.
I pretty sure H was rather lucid of where and when he was during that dinner. Pleasant small talk, eye contact, and such. Sure, all fine and good stuff. However, until OW is no more, he is running.
Perhaps their relationship is about run its course. Perhaps, he and her had a fight. Who knows. Until she is gone, keep doing what you do. Live your life.
I was slightly uncomfortable about it as well. Itās been ages since I held onto any hope for our marriage and I now find I resist any thought of reconciling.
That is understandable. You wisely see and know that this could be yet another false indication. You are also use to your current life, and there is no need to up end it. In fact, if any reconciling were to start - donāt up end your life.
If it is to be, let H catch up to you. As in, decide to run to something, rather than run from something.
I do believe H has made progress. These external displays harken to the internal progress made, for most MLCer progress occurs internally and hidden from us/others. The real interesting part from Hās apparent sudden shift - is your progress. Healed, forgiving, compassionate, and unsure.
Keep moving forwards Adios. Live a great life. And if your flickering hope burns a little brighter, thatās ok.
D
Adios,
I think it is understandable to seek answers to these sorts of questions, but the reality is that they are questions no one can answer for you. Each of our stories is different; the people involved different; the circumstances different.
It sounds like you guys have been able to keep a good relationship throughout this and that it was not unpleasant for you. If you are inclined to keep seeing and/or talking to him you may learn something over time or you may not. It might be the start of something, it might have been an end of something for him. Time will give you the answers you seek.
Of course the original DB advice probably applies now more than ever. Keep moving forward with your own life. Don't have any expectations of what is happening or why. Participate if it provides something for you, decline if it doesn't. Make your best life for you.
First Off,,, thank you DnJ and OwnIt for responding to my last post. I attempted to reply - twice - and both times my reply just disappeared into thin air. I didnāt have it in me to try a third time thanks to the arrival of back spasms for a week followed by Covid for almost 2 weeks. Your responses were food for thought and I appreciated your comments.
An interesting update. Itās a long post, hopefully not too long. Over the last 5 years I think Iāve mastered how to be a āmaybeā standing LBS. The first 6 months maybe not so much (when I didnāt know any better) but after that I stuck to the LBS handbook fairly closely. He always initiated contact and I never did unless it was impossible not to. There were very few times during the 5 years since BD that I initiated contact and then I kept it very brief. When we did talk or come face to face for any reason I was calm and pleasant. I had zero expectations. No relationship talks and I asked no questions about the OW. He was a clinging boomerang for years 1 & 2, then barely a boomerang for years 3, 4, and 1/2 of year 5, then last 6 months of year 5 he is back to a clinging boomerang. Over the years his contact has varied anywhere from everyday to barely once a month or so. I believed and accepted that he was gone for good and just got on with living my life and learned to enjoy it as well. I was busy enough that I thought about him less and less over time. I felt free from those darn obsessive thoughts that plagued me for years. I cared less and less that he was still with his sleezy OW.
My husbands OW lives a 4 hr plane trip away. Too far to drive so he flew to visit her every few weeks. Twice he flew her out here to visit and they would vacation on this side of the country. It was a hot, passionate addictive mutually Limerant relationship but a very turbulent one. Lots of fights, breakups that lasted for days to a week. Many fights were about me and his endless stalling to divorce me, despite his promises to her that he would. It may have been because he became such a procrastinator about doing so many things but I also have a hunch he didnāt really want to end our marriage for emotional reasons. He said many little things over the years that supported my theory. I wasnāt looking for clues either but found a lot of his comments very odd if he had truly moved on.
Then Covid arrives on the planet and then the covid vaccine soon after. The OW is an extreme anti-vaxxer and is deep into conspiracy theories about vaccines. She refused to be vaccinated and further refuses to be within a mile of anyone who has had a vaccine because she believes they will shed vaccine cells on her and make her deathly ill. So my DH also became an anti-vaxxer and got deep into conspiracy theories as well. Then our country shut down travel for unvaccinated people. They could not board a plane, train, or bus without showing proof of vaccination. Tough for DH and OW to see each other and they havenāt now for almost 8 months although my adult D says they still talk on the phone.
When covid restrictions were removed I figured he would be booking a flight to see her but my D says he has no plans to go to see her. I found that hard to believe and put it down to a real inability to go because of a few things - a cousin and his family coming here to see him, and the recent purchase of an investment property that left him with lots to do after possession which coincided with the removal of travel restrictions. But D says he just doesnāt want to go. OW is a leech who enjoyed having a man pay for absolutely everything they did that cost money. D says he now has goals that are incompatible with resuming that relationship. D also noted that he has gradually but noticeably improved these last 8 months. Calmer, conspiracy theories are barely mentioned, he is far less angry with her and other family members, and she says he is just different now. At the same time she was noticing that he is much better, I noticed a dramatic increase in his positive contact with me. He is relaxed, friendly, chatty, and has invited me out 3 times recently - twice for dinner and once for a casual pub night. He asked for my help with documents related to his investments and then way over paid me for my help. I didnāt expect anything and was quite happy to help him for nothing. But he knew I had a big house upgrade bill and wanted to help me with that. Wow, I tried to refuse but he went ahead a did a direct deposit to my account. Then when all was said and done he wanted to go for dinner on an outdoor patio. He had already overpaid me for the work I did so I tried to pay my share of the bill but he flat out refused. This is the second dinner in a few weeks, the first being at a restaurant with a romantic date atmosphere. It was expensive and he wouldnāt take anything from me then either.
Then the pub night - it followed a quick meeting about the documents and was a last minute āare you hungry - want to go for wings and beer?ā I didnāt really as I was unusually tired and just wanted to go home to sleep but I went anyway. I enjoyed it despite being tired - he was so much like his old self, chatty, relaxed, friendly, held eye contact. Same with the dinners. I wondered about his friendliness in the beginning but brushed it off as he was simply grateful that I assisted him with his investment. But then it continued and still continues. He has contacted me almost every day now for over a month. I canāt help wonder if he isnāt beginning to emerge from Replay, or at least from the thicker fog within replay. We have talked more in the last month than in the last 3 years. All initiated by him. There is no hint of romantic interest from him and Iām not hinting that either. However I have often thought Iād like a chance to restore things if it ever came to that but I never expected it would. Now I donāt know if I want that anymore - I like my life the way it is now although I do miss the comfort and closeness we had within our marriage. And I also donāt know if it did come to that how to proceed. Iām so used to practicing the 180 but obviously that has to go if anything is to progress. When do I begin to initiate anything without sending him running for the hills? Or is it still too early for any of that and should I still leave initiating to him? When he asked the last time if I wanted to go somewhere for dinner, I said sure but alternatively suggested we could bbq at my place instead and he said āno, letās go out. Iād like to go out.ā. No problem but I offered to do the bbq another night which he readily agreed to. But I havenāt arranged anything yet.
Iām still holding back on initiating and maybe because Iām not convinced itās all over with him and the OW. I just learned his work partner started 5 weeks vacation at the same time the vaccine requirement to fly was removed and isnāt due back to work until early August. He canāt take time off from work until he gets back. So if it wasnāt for that would he have been out to see her already? And will he go in Aug when he can take time off? Itās a big milestone birthday for her then too so I canāt imagine him not going to see her. And if he does will this once powerful Limerant relationship fire up again? I suspect so. The absence has given him a breather and time to step back and reevaluate but I donāt think heās smart enough to realize the danger of getting sucked right back into it, the minute they spend time together. He will probably go because she will ask and expect him to since itās her birthday and he, being a nice guy, will comply. Iām that sure it will go this way that Iāll bet money on it. Going back 3 years into their relationship they had to take a 2 month break in visits when covid first hit and it was downright dangerous to get on a plane. In those two months he was able to step back and see her in a very different light. He told his D that she is a sociopath, that has zero empathy or compassion for anyone. Then D told me that OW often verbally attacks him and said you wouldnāt believe the things she says to him. She was sure it would fizzle then but of course he went back after the 2 months break and things went right back to the crazy intensity for another 18 months. I do wonder if he has truly changed or if he will slip right back into the fog once he sees her again. Iām ready for that if it happens. Iāll just continue with my own life as I have been and just chalk this recent reconnection to a temporary thing,,, and soon too end.
Or,,,,, is there something I can do to make a difference in how this plays out? Is he ripe for reconnection or just killing time until they can resume things. When do I switch from years of practicing the 180 to an approach that might encourage him to keep moving in my direction? I really have no clue how to proceed from here.
Worth noting, maybe, is that he has seen a therapist several times this year. About what - no idea but it does coincide with his recent improvement.
Hmm,,,did I break some kind of rule here? Sorry if I did. š
Adios if youāre asking if you can control the outcome the answer is no. Your 180s are for you and not to attract him back. I guess my question is do you want him back because it didnāt work out with OW? Say he was interested in coming back. What would you require from him? Would you sweep it under the rug as it never happened?
Good Morning Adios
It is interesting the direction of Hās path during the last eight months.
ā¦he was so much like his old self, chatty, relaxed, friendly, held eye contact. Same with the dinners. I wondered about his friendliness in the beginning but brushed it off as he was simply grateful that I assisted him with his investment. But then it continued and still continues. He has contacted me almost every day now for over a month. I canāt help wonder if he isnāt beginning to emerge from Replay, or at least from the thicker fog within replay. We have talked more in the last month than in the last 3 years. All initiated by him.
His behaviour is becoming consistently demonstrated.
He has contacted you every day for over a month. I suspect you have answered him, pretty much every day as well.
I have often thought Iād like a chance to restore things if it ever came to that but I never expected it would. Now I donāt know if I want that anymore - I like my life the way it is now although I do miss the comfort and closeness we had within our marriage.
Is he ripe for reconnection or just killing time until they can resume things. When do I switch from years of practicing the 180 to an approach that might encourage him to keep moving in my direction? I really have no clue how to proceed from here.
I get it. We do find our new normal and do not want to loose our gains.
I also donāt know if it did come to that how to proceed. Iām so used to practicing the 180 but obviously that has to go if anything is to progress. When do I begin to initiate anything without sending him running for the hills? Or is it still too early for any of that and should I still leave initiating to him?
Yes we do have to redirect our 180 efforts somewhat. Realize those 180s - GAL, live for you, stand for you - are you. You donāt loose those convictions. And you already have shifted some 180s - Dim, dark, NC - you and he speak almost daily; more in the past month than you have in the past three years.
Is H ready or looking to reconnect? I do not know for certain. No one does. However, things do look favourable towards that end.
Are you ready or desiring to reconnect? As youāve wisely said, you are not sure. My advice, thatās not no, so go with maybe you are.
So what to do? Reconnecting is far less common, and much less scripted than a crisis.
You, the LBS, has done the inner work, healed, become better not bitter, and so on. H is moving forward, and you are correct he is still not yet comfortable in his own skin, proceed gently.
Something immediate: Call him. Invite him over for a BBQ. That is a nice 180 from him always calling. In my view, H is jumping through lots of hoops of his own volition (daily contacts), it doesnāt hurt to acknowledge that by action. And it shows your interest. Have a nice supper and conversation. It will be interesting to see what information he offers.
Some things more general (in no particular order):
You are the more healed one. For a while you will have to lead things a bit. And your forgiveness, compassion, and understanding will be tested. Itās not fair, I get it. You will need to meet him more than half way at times. H is looking and seeking that you donāt hate him. That you might even forgive him. Of course, that is in an effort for him to forgive and love himself too. He is not out of the woods yet, though he is walking towards the edge.
Lead slowly and gently. Mostly it will seem and appear that H is leading; you just gently steer is all.
Live your life. Be you. You will not loose those gains. In fact, those traits and being healed are attractive. Let H run to catch up to you. Itās not the other way around; itās not you slowing down for him. And he will catch up, if he wants too.
You are not recreating your marriage. You are creating something new. It would be dating, and exploring where this goes, and who he is. Seeing if he and you are compatible.
Donāt worry about losing him or your reconnection. Youāve lost him long ago. Right now, he is turning back is all. Nothing really to lose when you look at it. Maybe lots to gain though.
OW will need to be discussed at some point. Purging her from his life will take time. He will have withdrawal. Boundaries and stay the course. One example, is he needs to be one year OW free before he and you live together. One year! And if he reaches out to her, the clocks resets. Itās a serious thing. Itās a serious message. You are serious about reconnecting/reconciliation. Is he? Let him demonstrate it.
During that year - date. Enjoy. Have fun.
You are, and always were, the prize. No need to make him grovel or beg or plead, yet donāt give you away either. Itās not him earning you; itās him earning your respect and trust.
You will have lots of questions for H. Hold off on most of them. He will answer them in due course.
H, recently, is behaving like a new person. For hopefully he is. This is the man you are talking too and maybe dating. The crisis H will not exist, if H heals well. Itās part of building a new relationship, rather than dredging the old and trying to repair.
Anyhow, just some ideas.
D
Thank you DnJ for taking the time to post such a detailed reply. You gave me much to ponder and I think I am clearer on where I am in this now.
Yes, the last 6 months have been interesting. After months, years really, of seeing absolutely no change, what Iām seeing now is certainly interesting.
This past week there havenāt been the daily calls. I suspect itās because he either doesnāt need me for any more help, or because his recent moving toward me has scared him, or because he has made plans to visit OW in 2 weeks time. Or a combination of the above. Right now Iād bet money that he has made a decision to see OW and has made firm travel plans. His MLC mind might be telling him itās cheating on her if he is in close contact with me. Or maybe he sees his own recent actions toward me as leading me on when he is on the verge of seeing his OW again.
Whatever has led him to stop the daily contact is fine with me. I was getting a bit nervous about the direction it was going. Like I said earlier, I like my life the way it is and Iām not sure I want to make room in my life for him anymore. You are right when you say the old marriage is dead. I already see that we are both different enough people now that we couldnāt just pick up where we left off. So that leaves me wondering what a new marriage would look like and I struggle to imagine it. I canāt see us connecting and being as close as we once were even if we were both committed to that. I also feel quite a bit of resistance within me to the idea of actively being his wife again. I donāt think whatever marriage we could put together would work. There,,I said it. I donāt want the marriage back. I would like to reconnect though and maybe reconcile a friendship. But just saying that meets with some resistance within me. Itās possible I might feel differently in the future. He is still in MLC and until he is out of MLC or close to it, Iām fine just staying where I am. This has nothing to do with any residual anger or bitterness, or any other negative feelings. I have released all those feelings over the last few years. He is someone I still love in some measure and I truly wish him the best.
I have decided itās time to drop the 180 fully. Not because I want him back but because itās no longer necessary. The 180 kept me from initiating contact or having R talks. I find now that I really donāt desire either which is interesting to me. If he wanted to have a R talk right now I think I would try to change the subject. And initiating contact is no problem if I have a specific reason to do so. But for now, I cannot call just to chat or invite him out to do something. My interest is not strong enough. I also think he is still too far away from the end of his MLC. And I am quite aware Iām just rambling away here, lol.
Itās clear to me that I have as much to figure out of as a LBS as he does as a MLC. I was initially excited a bit to see what appeared to be movement in his MLC. Now, I think Iām more curious than anything since there isnāt a lot of reading on the net about what these later MLC years look like.
If he resumes with the OW as I expect, he will just be following a predictable MLC path. Eventually that R will fall apart and if it doesnāt Iāll be surprised. He will go through withdrawal from her when it ends for the final time. Then when OW has served her purpose in his MLC, he will move thru the difficult later stages. If he moves toward me again during that time Iāll be supportive. I want a restoration of some kind with him but not a marriage restoration. Maybe time and progress will change that but idk. And maybe I need to see more changes in him too. Time will tell.
Ha,,, so what do I know? Not much. After many consecutive days of contact, it just stopped. Last phone conversation was 12 days ago, last text 10 days ago, last in person contact was 2 weeks ago. I will conclude that this wasnāt a touch and go or a reconnection attempt. It was an act,,,to get my help with his investment project. I suspected that was possible at the time especially since he surprised me and paid me for my time and then some. It was a generous payment that I initially refused. I would have helped him for nothing. He wisely paid me though, so he could withdraw after it was all done and not feel like he had led me on.
Iām not devastated or even upset. I will carry on with my perfectly fine as it is life. I do wish him well though and I donāt regret the brief period of contact we did have.
Hello Adios
With each peek out of the tunnel they get closer to their exiting it. If that is indeed their fate.
You are right when you say the old marriage is dead. I already see that we are both different enough people now that we couldnāt just pick up where we left off. So that leaves me wondering what a new marriage would look like and I struggle to imagine it. I canāt see us connecting and being as close as we once were even if we were both committed to that. I also feel quite a bit of resistance within me to the idea of actively being his wife again. I donāt think whatever marriage we could put together would work. There,,I said it. I donāt want the marriage back.
Yep. I also wonder what a new marriage would look like between J and I. Certainly cannot just pick up from where and when it blew apart.
I would like to reconnect though and maybe reconcile a friendship. But just saying that meets with some resistance within me. Itās possible I might feel differently in the future. He is still in MLC and until he is out of MLC or close to it, Iām fine just staying where I am. This has nothing to do with any residual anger or bitterness, or any other negative feelings. I have released all those feelings over the last few years. He is someone I still love in some measure and I truly wish him the best.
Not wanting the marriage back or wanting to be friends is ok. You can love someone and not like them. I still love J, yet her and I are not friends.
Itās clear to me that I have as much to figure out of as a LBS as he does as a MLC.
Most wise!
Iāve discovered lots about myself, faith, loyalty, values, where and when I draw the line, empathy, compassion, conviction, forgiveness, emotional intelligence, and so on. Iāve learnt plenty about crisis, emotional problems, child rearing, grief, depression, etc. And I have discovered more questions with each answer. I now have more to learn, than when I knew less. Lol.
This unwanted horrible path we were forced upon is a golden opportunity and an incredible blessing. The wisdom is hard earned, no doubts there; the most valuable tenets, knowledge, and experience usually are.
Iām not devastated or even upset. I will carry on with my perfectly fine as it is life. I do wish him well though and I donāt regret the brief period of contact we did have.
Good for you. Nice to be on to the smooth part of the path, isnāt it?
D
Iām not devastated or even upset. I will carry on with my perfectly fine as it is life. I do wish him well though and I donāt regret the brief period of contact we did have.
Dear Adios,
It seems you are well healed. Good for you. Live your perfect life.
Time will tell if he will somehow still be part of your future.
Take care.
H has flown to see OW after being unable to for almost 10 mo. He wouldnāt get the vaccine and neither would she and all domestic airlines banned unvaccinated travellers until recently. They just recently removed the ban. H didnāt return for a visit right away because he couldnāt get off work. My D thought he didnāt return because he was done with it all. It was finished she thought even though they talked on the phone during the entire 10 months. I knew that wasnāt the case. If he was done with it all there would be no phone calls. But then again my H hates difficult conversations so maybe he was done and was just reluctant to finalize it once and for all. D believed he would not be going to visit her again even though he could because he knew it was a terrible R. He told D at the beginning of the flight ban that it was a relief he didnāt have to see her. The R was exhausting and financially draining. He paid for everything and spent a small fortune in airline tickets flying to see her every 3 weeks for over 5 years. Itās a completely dead end R with no chance either of them will relocate to live with the other. He gave up everything for a dead end R and now he is on the verge of giving up his future happiness with anyone else as well.
This OW, like many APās, is a low quality human. H couldnāt see that through his MLC and the limerance but after 10 months not seeing each other, multiple therapy sessions, and new goals that didnāt include her, the family was hopefully he would wrap it up for good. Hopes are totally dashed now that he is with her for a week, and maybe longer.
Itās been some time since I had hope for reconciliation or a even any desire for a reconciliation, now 5+ years after BD. I did think we could have an amiable post marital relationship though. And we did have that. We are not friends, but we are friendly and respectful with each other. There is really no lingering anger or resentment. I was hoping to see him recover from his MLC one day and return to the land of the sane despite my doubt or my lack of interest that we would ever reconcile. I was glad to recently see what I thought were signs of progress, especially the stabilizing of moods and a big reduction in his frustrations and anger. None of this was directed at me but more at my D. She took the brunt of the monstering during the worst of the MLC. She was thrilled to see progress and him calming down to a normal level. He was calm, relaxed, respectful and like the dad she had before MLC hit.
Then he flies off to see OW. Possibly to end it formally? Or to establish some kind of casual connection unlike the crazy connection they had prior to the flight ban? Or to resume full speed ahead where they left off? Both D and I thought his plan might have been to have a pleasant visit and end it amiably when the trip was over. She thought it would go as he planned. I did not and told her that despite his intentions, to be prepared that it would start up again. I donāt know yet, nor does she, what will happen after this trip. I will bet money on it that there will be many more trips to come.
My reaction to this trip is complete disgust. He had a chance to escape this nightmare R, and according to D he did escape it for those 10 months, was a semi-changed man on his way to a more normal self,,,,, and then he risked it all because either he could not see the danger to his recovery, if indeed he was recovering, or because he really had made no progress and intended to resume this sick R in full.
Time will tell whether he returns to see her again but the fact that he even risked it at all, regardless of his intention was the ultimate last straw for me. I want nothing to do with him or anyone else who is stupid enough to do this. According to D, he has enough clarity to know his R with this crazy disordered OW was the dumbest and biggest mistake of his life. But I guess he doesnāt have enough clarity to see he is walking right back into the quicksand. Where he wants out, but canāt get out because of her control over him and his emotional weakness and inability to break it off. He was so close to his freedom from her. All he had to do was stay away. And he couldnāt or wouldnāt. I am so done with him and his MLC and the pain he has visited on our family. I have zip respect for him and there will be no more amiability between us. If he asks āwhatās wrong?ā, Iāll tell him. If I say anything to him after that it will be those well known two words. You know what words I mean. Iām done with this chapter and this book and will never open it again. I am so done. Finally.
Good Morning Adios
I agree with you that Hās trip is unlikely to be to end things with OW. However, his purpose and outcome is still unknown; time will tell.
The decisions and choices a MLCer makes can be so aggravating. Your Hās recent behaviour, his apparent inability and/or unwillingness to extract himself from such a dead end R; even he knows it is a terrible R; shows just how terrible and consuming a crisis is.
Yes, the AP is usually the control over the emotionally broken individual. Breaking up, leaving, extracting themselves from the situation is very difficult. The MLCer is addicted, confused, and enthralled by a false fantasy; and they will expend incredible energies to maintain that fantasy, even in the face of obvious counter feedback.
Small peeks out of the tunnel, touch and goes, mini awakenings sporadically occur showing the crisis individual glimpses of reality and damage done. Then back into the tunnel to run some more. Slowly they get stronger and emotionally more stable, and can withstand these peeks more and more.
The horribleness of a crisis. These lost souls get mired in the darkness and struggle to find their light and happiness.
All he had to do was stay away.
If only their solution was that easy.
The addiction, their torment, their demons - itās not staying away, itās making peace with them. And that road is not one most folks willingly head towards.
I empathize with opening a new chapter in your book of life. Be better not bitter, and forgive often as your write upon those pristine pages.
D
Hi DNJ - I appreciate your comments as always. Thank you! š. It has been aggravating but I hope no more. Itās aggravating to see this after watching, seeing progress, and silently cheering and hoping he would recover despite not wishing for a reconciliation. I just hoped he would somehow find a way to dump this trashy woman. I would be fine if he was with a decent woman who didnāt scheme to destroy his marriage. But not this one.
I find this aggravation falls outside of forgiveness somehow. My forgiveness is still intact but my desire to know him anymore is gone. I will stop watching and cheering (or booing).
Thank you so much for your wise comments.
Hi DNJ - I appreciate your comments as always. Thank you! š. It has been aggravating but I hope no more. Itās aggravating to see this after watching, seeing progress, and silently cheering and hoping he would recover despite not wishing for a reconciliation. I just hoped he would somehow find a way to dump this trashy woman. I would be fine if he was with a decent woman who didnāt scheme to destroy his marriage. But not this one.
I find this aggravation falls outside of forgiveness somehow. My forgiveness is still intact but my desire to know him anymore is gone. I will stop watching and cheering (or booing).
Thank you so much for your wise comments.
Hi Adios,
I can fully relate to the fact that you have difficulties with this particular woman. Not only because she is a trashy woman, but definitely also because this one was the affair partner.
So I only wanted to add that I too had a lot of trouble with this fact.
Every time I heard that they gave it another chance I could be very angry with him.
However, I can only say that this feeling too will pass.
Mind you, I will never accept her, I don't have to, but my anger is gone because I actually see him as a very weak person. And the reason they stay in such a toxic relationship is simply because they can't handle a normal relationship, they feel way too guilty, so they think it makes it easier for them to choose for such a relationship, when of course we know better.
So Adios, this feeling too will pass, trust me.
Hugs!!
Eagle
Aww, thank you Eagle. I am sure the intensity will pass. When it does, it will be indifference I feel. I donāt want to hold onto anything negative and I wonāt. Time will tell I suppose what happens from here but I truly hope, for the first time in years that nothing happens. That this is the very end of the road for me. It really feels final. Iām fine with that, and actually prefer that now. Something mentally snapped in me. Enough! Iām finally finished with this part of my life.
But I will post updates to confirm (or not) that this is where I truly am. Thank you again, Eagle
{Adios} not an easy place to be, and please don't beat yourself up if the inference sometimes gets dented and the hurt comes creeping in a bit. it's all part of the process..
Thanks for the post Butterfly.
Iām not sure what you mean by āif the inference sometimes gets dented.
As far as the hurt, I did feel that in the first few moments I was aware he had returned to see the sleazy OW, but it quickly disappeared to be replaced by disgust. Itās just mind blowing to realize he chose to resume with her after all he has lost because of her. I was hopeful he had left her behind for good, not because it meant anything for us (it doesnāt), but because it meant someone that once meant the world to me was emerging from the slimy hole he was in with her. I cheered what I thought was his progress, not unlike how I would cheer for anyone I know who appeared to be making smart life decisions. But when bad choices are made year after year, there inevitably comes a time when one must stop watching someone continue to destroy their chance to recover and find lasting happiness. That is where I am now. Iāve lost all interest in knowing what comes next in his sad life. He had a chance to do better and he didnāt. He chose to stay doing poor.
typo - indifference
dang auto-incorrect strikes again
lol,,, got it. I should have known š
DnJ,
Where have yout threads go?
Good Morning Adios
I find this aggravation falls outside of forgiveness somehow. My forgiveness is still intact but my desire to know him anymore is gone. I will stop watching and cheering (or booing).
That is perfectly normal. As indifference unrolls and emotions return, feelings of aggravation (and others) will well up. Feelings are fleeting. Aggravation will flit when it is not reinforced. Forgiveness being anchored within oneās beliefs is not so fleeting.
I found it so interesting the simultaneous paths - physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual - and each of their influence upon the others.
D
My thread title is so out of date. I am now closing in on 6 years of his MLC. There is no more pain thankfully, but there is a lot of sadness and I suspect there always will be some. Itās not a sadness that drives my life in any meaningful way. Iām generally not aware of the sadness either until my mind revisits the years we had together, before MLC. The sadness is all about everything I lost,,, my marriage, my best friend, our home, many friends, total emotional security, my confidence,,,, for starters. His MLC did a real number on me. The consequences to me were staggering, mind boggling, even hideous. Just horrible. Itās not surprising that I still reel at times from the memory or that I am left with this sadness.
Most days I think I am fully healed. I go days without giving him a thought, I donāt miss him, I donāt want him back, my life is peaceful, happy and content. I have everything I need and most of what I want. Iām pretty sure I donāt want him back but then there is a small part of me that wonders if it would be possible to recover all that was lost. Could we actually reconcile one day? Then my mind shuts that thought down. Then it resurfaces again later on. I actually purchased two books at separate times related to marriage and reconciliation. Then when I cracked the books I found I just couldnāt continue. Both books went in the garbage. Reconciliation is definitely not for me. My mind recoils at the thought of reconciling. Then on some level of consciousness (or not), I review all the reasons why I do not ever want to reconcile. Iāve done this dozens of times over the years and I see it as some kind of ongoing processing of trauma and grief or remnants of it. I have mostly healed but not entirely or this processing would be done. Maybe when it is fully done the sadness will be gone.
My mother passed away 6 years ago, a few weeks before BD. There was a lot to do in the days following her death. It distracted me from my grief but when the dust finally settled I was able to feel her loss. Then the unthinkable happened. BD out of nowhere. That completely derailed grieving for my mother and became a nightmare of survival on levels I didnāt even know existed. I was no longer able to grieve for my mother,,,, until now. Close to 6 years after her death. Now that I have mostly recovered from my trauma, the grief I have suppressed for years has surfaced. My thoughts are frequently on her,,, my mother,, and Iām feeling her loss in full. Iām actually grateful for this time to grieve. It was unfair to her that I didnāt/couldnāt grieve until now. She deserved to be the centre of my thoughts after her death, and I needed to honour her memory properly. Instead my mind was obsessed with my own misery apart from her death. I think itās a sign of my own recovery that I am finally grieving her.
Whatās my MLCer doing these days? I donāt know and donāt much care. If he got run down by a bus tomorrow I would feel the same sadness and horror that his friends and family would feel but nothing more. Over the years he has remained in regular contact, almost entirely initiated by him. We have gone out for dinner or lunch a several times over the last year. Always at his initiative and itās alway a pleasant time but not special either. He always has some reason to get together,,,to talk about something or another. Itās never just because he wants to spend time with me. Never. Despite my lack of interest I find this offensive somehow. That he just has to come up with some reason to get together. I suspect he does want to just spend time with me because the reasons are so flimsy and takes minutes and could easily be done on the phone or by email. I accept the invites not because I want to see him but because Iām a bit curious. Iāve observed changes in him over the years,,his slow progression through MLC and I do think one day he will finish his MLC. Iāll be happy to see him finally make it through and back to planet earth. But it wonāt change my lack of interest in reconciling. That ship has truly sailed. I think that the sailing of this ship is the source of much of my sadness. That we didnāt survive this storm despite how good our marriage was and how much we loved each other. It is by far the sadness event in my life so I suppose itās to be expected that I still feel it.
If you want to change your thread title, I will be happy to do it for you.
Thanks but itās not a big deal so Iāll leave it.
Good Morning Adios
It is good to hear from you.
You and I have a similar timeline with our situations. I empathize with what you say. Yes, there is a sadness, a missing of what once was. Like you say, not a sorrow, just a memory-induced feeling.
I find such fleeting feelings do not detract from my acceptance or forgiveness. In fact, they kind of reinforce it. My three decade relationship ended in a horrific manner as well. The odd moment of sadness from the memory of the plentiful happy wed times is understandable.
To me, acceptance is emotional understanding. We find peace and understanding of our loss and our emotions. Peace and understanding is not numb or heartless or unfeeling, it allows one to feel and love. And sadness is just one of the expressions of such; just wee slice of our time, the vast majority of our days being fulfilled with other facets of our lives.
My MLCer has remained radio silent. She was much the vanisher type. Her and I recently spoke at my sonās wedding, the first conversation in four years. It was interesting to see how much she knew about me and my life. Somehow managing to keep tabs on things. Of course, her and OM are basically my neighbour. And she slyly added she has her sources. Lol.
I understand how processing your motherās passing would have gotten deferred. One only has so much bandwidth, and the events of your H and situation were front and center. I agree, you are well healed and grieving your Mom is a sign of much recovery. (((Hugs)))
Hope you have a great weekend.
D
Thank you DNJ. I do like reading your replies when I post. You said this:
ā,,, acceptance is emotional understanding. We find peace and understanding of our loss and our emotions. Peace and understanding is not numb or heartless or unfeeling, it allows one to feel and love. And sadness is just one of the expressions of such; just wee slice of our time, the vast majority of our days being fulfilled with other facets of our lives.ā
Oh wow, yes! You put to words some vague thoughts Iāve been having along these lines. Iāve felt numb at times and it was a huge help to shield me from the worst of the hell I was in. Now that the numbness has been replaced by sadness,,,, well Iāll the take sadness over numbness. I finally found peace and acceptance through sadness but I doubt I ever would have if I had remained numb. The sadness is really a gift that brought me to the final stage of healing. I imagine over time it lessens but if it doesnāt Iām fine,,, I can handle it now.
A few days ago, my H once again invited me out for a quick lunch and to talk about nothing that really matters. I think this will be the last time I will agree to meet him. I donāt know what these meetings are doing for him but for the first time I see with crystal clear clarity that they do absolutely nothing for me. We have zip in common. Is it me thatās changed so much or has he been frozen in time? Or regressed? He engages in shallow conversation but then doesnāt listen or hear much of what I say. Then minutes later he will ask a question about something I said as if itās a brand new topic. I canāt handle these shallow conversations or his poor listening now that I feel nothing for him. The interesting thing is that he wasnāt so different in this respect before MLC and it was okay with me. Now it is not. I think that means I have changed in big ways and for the better. Maybe this is the silver lining?
Its good to take off the rose colored glasses.
Things will look clearer without them
As Cadet mentioned, things will look much clearer without those rose colored glasses. Sounds like his mind is still a tangled mess of wires misfiring. His attention span is still that of a gnat. He can't focus on a conversation for very long. He is still a lost soul and is trying to find himself. Try to think of him as a teenager. Their thought processes can go a mile a minute and still be sitting there having conversations that are shallow.
Adios, you have grown by leaps and bounds. You have gotten stronger since all of this started and for now, your man/child is still out there in the woods searching for himself.
Leave the rose colored glasses on the counter. Sit quietly and more will be revealed in time.
Rose coloured glasses have been stepped on and destroyed. No chance they will work again. š. I was invited out again last week and went, despite saying I didnāt think I would meet him again. It was similar to the other recent meetings and Iām a bit surprised at the increased frequency. I donāt think it means anything but I am somewhat curious if he is moving into another stage or closer to the end. Not that I want it to come to anything for us. It is a bit fascinating though, to observe things I was told or read about way back when he was deep in and I was a mess.
Continue as you have been doing. It's okay to try to guess where he is at in his crisis, but I wouldn't keep my focus on that. He'll bounce back and forth through the anger right up to acceptance for quite some time. Depression will be there and yes, it is the main ingredient of his crisis.
Treat him as you would a friend and keep conversations casual. The more you listen, the more he will tell on himself.
Good luck!