Prior threads
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825219&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825222Synopsis
Married 13 y, 2 young kids.
BD jan 2018. We sort things out. Jan 2018 EA starts with a lowlife. July 2018 BD that basically ends M. D filed. Reconciliation from Sept to Oct. EA turns to PA. I move out, PA intensifies, now past temporary orders phase.
She's made large purchases on the magnitude of thousands of dollars. She has shunned her family and everyone is concerned. She has brief moments of clarity but snaps right back into the tunnel.
I am mentally much better off than 4 months ago. Lost 30 lbs and am in the best physical shape of my life. I've taken some new hobbies and am surrounded by friends and family (including hers).
Next phase of D is discovery, with cell phone logs, bank and CC statements, etc... not looking forward to this.
It's never easy when dealing w/someone in crisis. I don't envy you having to work on the discovery. It's time consuming, but necessary. Be sure to make copies of things...just in case they are requested later on.
Try to have a good day.
yes
It is a difficult time during discovery, mediation and D
Once over, it get easier again
you are doing well-
hang in there
Glad you are surrounded by family and friends
Take care of you and the kids
She's made large purchases on the magnitude of thousands of dollars.
Often this is just midlife crisis spending, but do you have any reason to suspect bipolar disorder? People in a manic episode can have uncontrolled spending.
I have suspected bipolar for some time. There have been patterns of heightened spending, drinking, smoking, sex, etc..... for quite some time.
MLC is a cocktail of masked depression, bi-polar disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder.
Bi-polar people will go into a crazy rage, then act the next day like nothing happened. Sound familiar?
Yes. Had many occasions where it was jekyll and hyde.
Of course you can't say it to her, but is there a family member of hers who might be able to suggest to her that she needs treatment?
Her father told me not too long ago that she's always had "screws loose." Her mother and brother have encouraged her to get help but she does not think anything is wrong and then projects it onto us
Just spoke with her mother. W has alienated herself from the family. They last spoke on her mom's birthday and it did not go well. None of the grandparents have spoken to the kids in over a month unless I call them. Brothers and sister haven't spoken with her in 2 months. They are worried. Is this part of the MLC process? Why won't she reach out to family? That has always been such an important part of her life. It seems she wants to just live out this fantasy no matter who it destroys.
Job says it better
They become the opposite of who they were
She was close to family
Now she alienates them
The part with the kids was the hardest
My w was so close to the kids
And then she distanced herself from them too
You are dealing with a person in crisis
Their empathy chip is broken
They are focused on whatever they are feeling
My w said she needed to follow her heart
Trust her feelings
No matter the cost
This of course makes no sense to you
And your head spins
And your heart hurts
So that is why we say focus on healing yourself
And taking care of the kids
You did not break her
You cannot fix her
Praying for you in this dark moment
But it too will pass
One way or another
It is what it is
Good Morning Hamburg
Gordie is correct.
The MLCer becomes the opposite of who you knew. They will push away anything and everyone who reminds them of the life they are running from, or will not go along with their new fantasy reality. Throwing away family is bizarre and demonstrates how much in crisis she is.
My W threw away her four children. Stating, there was only four things she wanted from the house, her kids. But she was willing to risk loosing them for her chance at happiness.
It is interesting she referred to them as things, and considered them part of, or furniture within the house and expendable. It is bizarre, heartbreaking, and a clear sign of a person over the edge. As odd as this will sound, I found peace in that. W threw away everything, me, kids, dogs, parents, house, cars, aunt, uncle, friends, everyone, presents, belongs, etc... It is pretty obvious this is about her.
This is about your W, not you. You didn’t break her, you cannot fix her.
It seems she wants to just live out this fantasy no matter who it destroys.
Yes, she does, and will.
She has to do this, driven to do this. Anything or anyone getting in her way will be run over. She is running on emotions, scared, excited, frantic, desperate. And desperate people do desperate things.
She is already destroyed. Bomb drop destroys her as well. You have to rebuild yourself, and she has to rebuild herself.
Focusing on you and kids. Living the best version of you. All helps you.
This is part of the process, and it too shall pass.
DnJ
I also want to add that the more family and friends try to talk to her about what she's doing, the more determined she will be to continue on the path that she is traveling. MLCers take on new friends, i.e., people that they would not have associated w/prior to the crisis. Spouse, children, family and even pets are put up on a shelf and they do not tend to visit or socialize w/during the crisis, sometimes a little bit of socialization, but not much. When she begins returning to earth, she will reconnect in the opposite way, you, the spouse being the last to reconnect with.
She is the mirror image (opposite) of the person she was. No matter what anyone says, she has to travel the path she is on in order to come out the other side and hopefully a more mature, settled woman.
Keep the focus on you and your children. Let go, Let God take care of her.
Personally I'm on the "selfish jerk" theory more so than "MLC".
Just spoke with her mother. W has alienated herself from the family. They last spoke on her mom's birthday and it did not go well. None of the grandparents have spoken to the kids in over a month unless I call them. Brothers and sister haven't spoken with her in 2 months. They are worried. Is this part of the MLC process? Why won't she reach out to family? That has always been such an important part of her life. It seems she wants to just live out this fantasy no matter who it destroys.
Yes. And anyone who stands between them and their "happiness" is collateral damage.
There are also other layers here that none of us are really qualified to understand. Is there guilt? Shame? Certainly a recurring theme is that they don't want to be "judged". In my case my ex-wife's sister and brother quite supported her having an affair and "having fun". Because they themselves had done so repeatedly. So she grew quite close to her sister who she previously despised for at least a time.
For some I think that once they've "crossed the line" that there is no going back. It would mean facing that they have hurt people including themselves.
No clue what's going on in my ex-wife's life now. It's been about 3 1/2 years since the start of her affair, 4+ probably since she started on the "it's all about me" path and she's cut ties with pretty much everyone except a small group of supporters and has become intensely private on social media.
This is where we have to let go of their journey and outcome lest we get mired up in the mud with them.
I experienced the same
MY XH left his home, business kids and family of origin
His mother passed many years back..
As far as I know, His sisters said he never acknowledged his moms death
And still 10 years later- he has not reconnected with his sisters or his kids
I think he is a rare bird b/c he is also an alcoholic-sober a long time until MLC
I would do as you are
Be the best father you can for your kids
make sure they are safe-
let her go--she will continue to do bizarre things and possibly get sicker in the next few months/years
Im sorry but the outcome here is usually not great-at least for a chunk of time-
My H was the same. He never even told his mom that he filed. When I finally told her because it seemed weird to keep trading recipes via e-mail without mentioning it, she said she hadn't talked to him since June, and that was in September. He had already been speaking to her almost never since MLC started. And he of course stopped speaking to my (now 91-year old and very forgiving) dad, with whom he regularly had 2 hour phone conversations before MLC.
But my MIL also has abandoned us since this happened. She can't face it. She was a huge part of my kids' life and then my mom died in year two of MLC -- so my kids have no idea what happened to their dad and everyone else. They are totally isolated from loving family except me.
I don't agree with the selfish jerk characterization. The outcome is of course selfish and painful. I believe that they have to create a new reality in order to not completely implode or kill themselves. My H wrote me a long letter explaining how he wasn't leaving a marriage but a feudal civilization. It's totally insane but it is a good way not to face the fact that he is actually leaving a marriage and that his W and kids do not want him to.
You can be sure that any relationship based on lies, whether it's lies told to all who love them or the lies she is telling herself, cannot last. It's only a matter of time before that affair relationship sinks into the sand on which it is built.
My XH didn't tell his family that he was leaving me - I did. At first they seemed as shocked and dismayed as I (or at least MIL was) but as the MLC deepened they made the choice to stick by him. He never really cut off ties with them though.
I have no idea what has been said or done between them now, but whatever it was I am now totally out of their lives - even though I live in the same town, house their blood relatives (my sons), and have offered a number of olive branches. They will speak to me on the street, but they will not include me in any family activities even when there is no chance of XH and his OW attending.
Whatever this crisis is, I don't think it's tied up with FOO issues. XH's father was definitely physically abusive when XH was a boy, but they still see each other whenever they can. XH's mother was always very supportive of him - she always defended him against his father and she always spoke well to him.
For these reasons I'm with AndrewP on this one. On the basis that there is no evidence to point to anything else, I have to conclude that XH is a selfish, entitled jerk.
Selfish jerk vs MLC
Why can’t they be both?
If your spouse shows confusion, extreme changes in behaviour, or operating on mostly emotional “reasoning” they are probably are in some kind of crisis. We all have issues, hurts, and damage - their’s is just possibly bigger and/or their coping mechanism is less developed, so MLC hits. The depression of lost time and a short time left ahead of you and all the things they didn’t do, etc.. etc... is a recipe for a big problem. And then comes bomb drop.
I’ve read a lot of situations here and some spouses were jerks before BD, and they do seem to get worse. So yes the selfish jerk absolutely exists, I just believe that MLC is also involved in some cases. I don’t see how being selfish explains leaving kids, family, and ruining your life. Being selfish is one thing, but some of these people are making really poor decisions.
A “normal” selfish person would be invested in self. Would make decisions for the best for them. When they making snap emotionally based life altering decisions, it looks more than just being self centered, it looks like running.
Of course everyone is different, and every spouse is different. We all see our situations with our views and beliefs, and our spouses all have differing quantities of selfish jerk and MLCer emotional running within them. It leads to such a difficult diagnosis of cause, even though the effect is pretty darn clear.
For my situation, W was selfish back in her teens. Like all of us, a self centered adolescent. She and I grew up, had kids, lived, loved, laughed. Then kablooey. She has shown confusion, thought she was going insane and crazy, had an extreme change from loving faithful wife and mother. I have spoken to her different personalities, all of them adolescent, and therefore all of them self centered, just worse. A bad teen with money.
She is back in time, living something, I don’t know what. She has become a sad confused women, who threw away her own children. Selfish just doesn’t cover all of it.
MLC is a real thing.
Selfish jerk is a real thing.
The proportions are just in question.
DnJ
W now asking for money. She is flat broke until her next paycheck in 10 days. I'm torn. I know shes mentally in a bad place. I think at the very least I can buy groceries for them and drop them off at the house. I think about the affair, the egregious spending but I don't want to see her or my kids suffer. This process is so taxing.
You are a good man Hamburg. As DnJ likes to say, make your decision based on your values and beliefs and not your feelings. (((HUGS)))
Groceries is a good idea-
It is a tough situation because she has the kids, so you may need to step in when needed
Also may be a better idea to get full custody (if possible) or at least more custody- and let her go do her thing with no responsibility- especially if she cant handle the day to day things like having enough food for the kids, finances and taking care of her kids
You did the right thing in purchasing groceries for them. . As for purchasing things for her, i.e., clothes and fun things, she will need to wait until payday. She's learning the hard way that money only goes so far and needs to learn how to spend wisely.
Hamburg, I second and third all the comments about your goodness.
I gave my H money for food when he was between jobs until he filed, and he has not helped me financially in any way or given me anything for house or the kids since BD though he lives here. I finally stopped when he filed, it was great to have that excuse to say I couldn't do that anymore "obviously" now that he had filed.
But he still complains to me daily about how poor he is and does not notice that I work many jobs to feed our kids and hold on to our house.
Point is, you can't teach your W a lesson. But you can keep taking care of your kids while their mom is crazy. And you can let them witness your goodness and grace in doing so without weaponizing them.
I always try to search my heart when I am trying to make a decision like this, and ask if my motivation is towards goodness and forgiveness and love for the kids especially, or if there is some vengeance or judgment in it. Usually when I do that, it's clear what I should do.
On a practical level, keep a journal of all the times you had to do that and of anything else. This will help you with custody. I agree with Job about that.
I think you will have to pay for their groceries and clothes many times over. I think every time they see you left groceries, they will feel very loved and taken care of, so focus on that.
Thanks guys. She will drop the kids off tonight and I will give her groceries then. I may also give her a grocery gift card and a gift card to target or wal mart. I thought about giving her cash but that's probably not a good idea. After all that's happened, it pains me to see her like this. I know she is in a bad place mentally. I will take the kids out shopping as well. Hopefully the kids don't notice the struggle.
Gift cards can be re-sold or re-purposed. There's a whole industry devoted to that. In fact stocking up on gift cards is a common way that is recommended for stay at home mom's to accumulate a nest egg to leave their marriages.
Now I live in a small town so it's easy where I could easily set up an account there. It may be best if she puts together a grocery list and you could buy it online and have it there for her to pick up. A number of grocery stores do that as a convenience now. Some will even bring it right out to your car. You wouldn't have to directly interact at all which I am sure would be a relief for you.
I also think you want to ensure that she knows that this is just temporary and that she needs to get her act sorted out.
I would give her a gas card as well as a gift card to target or Walmart so that she can purchase the necessities. Continue to clothe and feed your children, as to seeing to their medical and dental issues. If, an emergency comes up w/your wife, you can then decide what you need to do to ensure her health and well being...but for foolish spending...no.
Got her a few store-specific gift cards and will buy groceries for them as well. She actually texted me and said thanks. Not something I expected. My birthday is coming up and her parents sent me gifts. It feels strange because that doesn't usually happen in divorce, does it? I am the only contact they have with regards to the kids. Her siblings are reaching out to me as well. Everyone is concerned. Isolationism cannot be good.
Her family can clearly see she is bonkers- so they will reach out to you
the more support the better
that is a good thing-
once my MIL realized her son has gone off the deep end and M a psycho
she reached out to us and we kept a relationship going until her death
You are doing the right things and each day that passes-- we get more information
so we can fix, change or adjust our responses and responsibilities to the MLCer
hang in
W actually texted and wished me happy birthday. I didn't realize that small thing would bring me joy, but it did. She didn't even wish me a merry christmas when I was over with the kids.
Meanwhile, her father sent me a very special and sentimental gift.....one he always said he would leave to me in his will. In his card he said I will continue to be a part of his life.
Its very bittersweet and filled with mixed emotions. I continue to pray for her and be the best father for my kids. They asked me if they could live with me. I didn't reply to them. I don't think they have much of a life over at her house.
Tomorrow....I drop off groceries to them. We'll see how that goes.
Happy Belated Birthday! I am glad she recognized the day.
I am so glad that her family is reaching out to you. They can see what is going on and realize that she is not herself. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do to change her course in MLC. You are very lucky that they are there for you. Many MLCers' parents distance themselves from us for a very long time until they see the light.
Continue as you have been. Keep the focus on you and your children.
Good luck today!
Happy B Birthday
I'm glad she reached out to you, and also her father is showing you his continued love and support-
The kids can see her unavailability and it may be best for them to be with you-
She may also be willing to let them go-
Mlcers are usually poor parents, and may be grateful for their freedom with some visitation rights
Only you will know what is best for everyone-
Happy Birthday, Hamburg! We are glad you were born, and it sounds like so are all who know you. Even W, somewhere deep in the depths of her MLC.
Dropped off groceries on her list. Brought a few extras and she seemed very thankful. Also left a grocery giftcard and she was almost in tears from it. I told her to let me know if she needs anything else and I would help.....but she is prideful. Kids were constantly hanging on me and saying "I miss you daddy. When are you going to move back in?" She teared up a bit and told them to stop.
I don't miss the house at all. Glad I'm over that now. I do miss my kids though. They are my world.
I'll admit, it was hard to see her. I have told her a few times lately that I miss her. Feelings and emotions wax and wane.
Happy Belated Birthday Hamburg. I’m a February baby too. My birthday is on Friday.
Bringing your W groceries and a gift card was a very classy thing to do. Sorry to hear about your kids. Kids really are the biggest losers in all of this and the only ones who don’t get to make any decisions until they are old enough. My kids left with their dad on Saturday morning and I won’t see them until Tuesday after work. I hate being away from them this much. I have to say that it is VERY hard not to be mad at my H for doing this to us. I told him before we started trying to have kids that “this was it”... that I didn’t believe in divorce with kids and that it would be the absolute LAST resort unless all other avenues have been tried and that if he didn’t think that, we shouldn’t have them. He agreed with me but I think he must have been crossing his fingers behind his back because for him, it was the first option. I made the mistake of thinking that his values and beliefs were similar to mine but I was sadly mistaken. Anyway... clearly you are a stand up guy who has a strong value system. FWIIW... I think this A with the OM will fizzle out soon if it hasn’t already. I think your W will regret her choices in the near future and you will then have some choices to make of your own. (((HUGS)))
You did the right thing in buying the groceries and taking care of your kids. I think that this hurts the kids so much more than the MLCer realizes. It's so hard to get past that level of selfishness. Good for you in doing the right thing.
We had been at odds for a couple of months and last week I told her it was nice to see her when she dropped off kids. She texted and said I wasn't acting like it. That's the first semi-personal communication we've had in some time. After that I expressed that I miss her and care for her. Then came the "if you really care, you'll help us out....I'm broke, etc..."
Last night she was different. She seemed more somber and stressed out than usual.
We made eye contact. She followed me to the door to see me out. She didn't throw any daggers. I was calm as usual. Not sure what it means but hopefully we can maintain this level of decency.
As for the A, not sure where that stands. He has little means and surely cannot help her financially. But its valentines week so who knows what will happen. I am sending her flowers anonymously but I'm sure she will know it was me. I didn't say anything mushy in the card.
Happy birthday dejavu. I hope you have some fun plans!
Thanks Hamburg. I don't really have any plans the day of but my kids will be with me so that will suffice. On Saturday, I am having some friends over for a girls' night. Similar to what I tried to do a few weeks ago when a couple people couldn't make it. This time they say they are in. We will see...
Well, that lasted all of a few days. W wanted me to cancel a contracted service for her house and I told her it was against a court order to do so. She didn't like that. She then said I was controlling. I told her I gave her almost $500 in gift cards and groceries, she spent thousands on furniture and spends money taking her boyfriend on dates. She didn't like that either. She lied about taking him out and I said I've had enough and know the truth. None of this is apparently any of my business and knowing her whereabouts, expenditures, etc....is creepy. She then said to stop giving her gifts and sending sentimental messages. She wants me to move on and be happy, put personal feelings aside, etc...
I will admit, when she requested help I got roped back in. I had a difficult time for a few days, reminiscing about old times. I cannot let myself do that again. I'm doing ok now but feel it's better to leave my guard up. Live and learn I guess.....
Hello Hamburg
You did a kind thing with the gift cards; she just can’t handle it. Imagine her guilt and stress, the inner turmoil. So she lashes out again. She justifies her position and warps things to her view.
Be gentle on yourself. So you got roped in a little, get up, dust off, and let it go.
I understand the desire to want to help. However, she does need to learn the consequences for her spending and lifestyle, to grow up.
Keeping working on detachment and find indifference, it is so worth the effort. And just so you know, you can still care and love.
For now, you should probably follow her request and stop sending her gifts. Give her plenty of space and time.
Yep, live and learn, we all do it.
You are doing a fine job of things Hamburg.
DnJ
Thanks. I have planned on only helping her once. I will always help my kids and support them. I will decline to help her again. Money seems to be her motivating factor.
I thought I had detached pretty well. Then....boom it hits again. I guess detachment takes time for the LBS.
I've learned my lesson.
The only problem I see here is that you are focusing on how your choice affected your W.
When you posted your idea about the groceries, we all chimed in about providing for your kids. No one here would have said to buy her stuff to affect her behavior or to change her. That is not possible.
And I still think you should buy your kids groceries no matter what she does, if you think they don't have what they need. And if your wife needed food for herself and you saw that, I think you should feed her then too. Likewise any enemy.
But if it's a matter of your kids having nine kinds of granola bars or just one kind -- e.g., if she can afford fruit and vegetables and to keep them fed even if it'll be rice and beans and eggs, then let her handle the groceries at her house and you can get them all the special stuff at yours.
If I didn't buy groceries, my kids would not eat. I buy it all, even if it's not fair.
As far as the gifts -- sentimental notes may put a lot of pressure. Little useful gifts, who knows? Trying to strategize seems to me to be a losing battle, it will make you crazy to try to figure out what will "work," since these MLCers change constantly. I try not to think about that and only about my need to protect myself somewhat and my main goal, to please God, not try to change or affect my H. (In secular terms, that would be, "To stay true to my beliefs, no matter what H does.")
I try to respect my (so far, still in-house) H's need for space, but I do continue to give him small things at 3 times a year -- X-Mas, Valentine's and his birthday. I leave a simple note and a tiny gift at our anniversary. I do this as a wife but also because my kids like to see us as a family, they are happy that his stocking is filled or that his place at the Valentine'sDay breakfast table has a couple little small gifts.
Maybe your sending a gift p!sses her off. But maybe in the long run, it's better to keep doing it anyway. I have read just as many testimonies from returned spouses saying that the continued kindness was something they secretly loved, even when they lashed out about it, as I have read admonitions from these boards saying to stop giving gifts.
What I do is -- when I want to give a gift, I do. When I don't, I don't. Likewise anything else. If I want to invite him to eat with us, I do; and if I don't have it in me, I don't. Sometimes when I don't have it in me to be kind, I pray for that grace, and then I am able to offer. Sometimes I don't get that grace and I stay silent. Tonight I am doing laundry and for some reason I feel like adding my H's in and folding it nicely afterwards. Usually, lately at least, I don't want to do his laundry or even come near any of his things, so I don't. And sometimes when I do his laundry, he will not only NOT thank me, but tell me not to do something "next time" -- e.g., don't dry this or that shirt. I just laugh about that. I know I can't please him. I go dark when I need to for myself, or grey. But when I am feeling stronger, l keep being a wife in small ways because my goal is to please God by loving unconditionally (and sometimes that means going dark!) and to surrender my H to him, knowing that I can't do anything to change H, only things to change myself.
They are by no means starving. They had enough groceries for 2 weeks or so. I wanted to make sure they were taken care of though. I also got her valentines flowers, but no mushy note.
Our 13th anniversary is 3 weeks before our mediation. I don't know how to handle that. Our youngest child's birthday is the week after anniversary. I don't want the association of bday with our divorce, but no options unless it goes to court......or we settle well after mediation.
Hamburg,
Purchasing groceries we asked for assistance was nice, but there comes a time, that you need to rethink doing so. If you purchased groceries for two weeks, then they should last just about two weeks. I would stock up on groceries at your place of the things that your children most likely will not get at the home, i.e., if wife doesn't have or can't manage her money to purchase them.
You purchased gift cards for her. You've purchased flowers for her. Now, it's time to step back, detach a bit more and since she has specifically stated don't buy her gifts, etc., then don't. Sending flowers made her feel guilty for what she's doing and she doesn't like that feeling.
As for the anniversary, unless she recognizes the day, I wouldn't or I would get a card that isn't mushy. No gifts, no flowers, nothing but a card and if I were in your shoes, no card...but that's me.
As for your child's birthday, plan something fun for the child. You may extend an invitation to your wife, but she most likely may do something herself or expect you to pay for the entire party. You have to think of your child and what would be the best way to recognize his/her birthday.
I know you are a good provider for your children, but you have to step back just a wee bit and not get roped in when you wife says she has no money. The welfare of your children is most important at this time. As for your wife...she needs to learn how to manage her money properly and not rely on you to continue to rescue her even if you are headed to separation/divorce.
No more gifts to wifey! Cards are to be generic. If gifts need to be given, they come from the children.
Not much has happened since my last check in. W and I haven't spoken. She was dropping off kids bags at my place and I was dropping off at my (her) house. Now she's made a deal with the school to drop bags off there. So now we must walk the hallways with suitcases in hand for all to see. It's quite embarrassing.
Kids counselor called me and the youngest has been a complete emotional mess. The oldest is on the autism spectrum and the behaviors (that have been absent for years) are now manifesting again. I need to find some additional help for her.
I have spoken to all of W's family, they haven't talked to her since Christmas time. I guess this is the new norm for an I definite time.
House has showings but nothing solid. Mediation is in 5 weeks and it will be awarded to me. That's not what I want so may push mediation back another month or so. Would also let the kids finish the school year there.
I continue to surround myself with positivity, have a great group of friends and work colleagues. They are a blessing......
Hamburg
Walking around school with suitcases is heartbreaking
You cannot control w
So here is what I would do
Buy them everything they need to stay with you
Clothing and toiletries and school supplies
Duplicates of everything if necessary
Then they only have to bring normal stuff to school
They may forget something sometimes
But all the basics will be covered
Take care of them
Spare no expense
Gordie is spot on.
There is no need for you or the children to be ashamed of walking around with suitcases. Just imagine the comments and looks they got.
Duplicate what they have at home or even better...get them something totally different so that they have something to look forward to when they are at your place.
Hamburg, I notice such a vast change in you since you started posting. You are healing even though you have to go through this horrible fire.
I agree so much with Gordie -- I always agree with Gordie! And Job's idea to get them things that are special just to your house makes it even better.
I would involve them in that -- you can say that you want them to pick out stuff to keep at your house because it's their home and they don't have to bring suitcases to their own home. Spend a Saturday shopping for things. You have something that a lot of us LBS's don't, to help with some of the pain, that that is a big budget! I have often thought how much easier this would all be on my kids if I could take them fun places or get them things they really need/want, but my sitch has caused dire financial woes, as my H hasn't contributed since BD over five years ago. So use what you got -- your big heart and a little extra cash. Your W is not thinking of anything but her own comfort at drop-off, she is willing to weaponize your kids to get what she wants. All it reveals is how desperate she is not to face the pain she is causing all of you. But you can keep being the wonderful Hamburg that you are.
I would try to get full custody and spare no expense in getting them in a stable environment
She is going to ruin them
Told her I refuse to pick up bags at school, as it may negatively affect the kids. She agreed and let me in the house to get then. Brought the kids in to say goodbye to her for the week.
Shes flat broke and let me know. I kept quiet. She asked me to help with daycare during spring break, which is her week. I kept quiet but will keep them with me an extra 2 days. She wants to talk about the house and delaying mediation (my idea) in person. As we left she started to tear up. I feel bad but can't let myself get hooked again.
Shes being nice, sending me text updates about the kids and her job. I cant help but think shes only looking out for herself.
Meanwhile I have some fun things planned for the kids spring break. I'm excited.
Hamburg - Good job not getting hooked into her mess. She had a ways to go to grow up.
Have a fun spring break.
DnJ
I am so happy that she was reasonable about the bags. Your children shouldn't have to deal w/that issue in school.
As for her being flat broke, well, she needs to learn to manage her money. If a divorce should take place, she needs to realize that you will not be there to save her each and every time she has no money.
As for spring break...enjoy the time you spend w/your children.
I think you did a great job of not taking her bait. Keep up the good work.
Going well.
W asked me to pay for kids daycare during spring break, which is her week. I am keeping then 3 extra days and told her she needs to pay for care during her week. She then asked me to pay for half.i declined and she surprisingly paid for it.
Suitcases for the kids have incorrect clothes, mismatched tops and bottoms, etc... IDK what is going on here. This has been an area she usually did well. Also, oldest mentioned shes been tardy to school several times, but teacher isn't counting it. I need to look into that.
As for the kids, took them to a theme park and they had the most fun they've ever had. I got season passes (even one for W) so they can enjoy it this summer. We are going back today and then a drive through safari thing tomorrow. It's been a blast.
glad you are having fun with them
Im sure the park will be a welcome activity for summer and nice to get w a pass-so she can take them too
Good Morning Hamburg
Good job with the daycare charges. That is her responsibility and you let her look after it. I think you know it isn’t about money. Had you paid, she’d be asking all the time, and not growing up.
To the mismatched clothes. I watched my W revert to a teenager (even younger at times) attitude, style, and dress. My daughter experiments with different looks, colour combinations, make up, etc... and so does her Mom. The fashion trends and cool new way to do something, is ok (sort of, within reason) on a teen, because the rest of the herd are doing it. However a 48 year old women doesn’t pull it off very well. Still the day she went shopping in just tiny shorts and a bra is a bit beyound mis-coordination. But I digress....
As you said, your W used to ensure correct clothing. She could have been tired, not be responsible, or lashing out, or thinks she is following a cool fashion idea. It is pretty amazing how much an MLCer becomes the opposite of who they were and on so many different levels and outlooks. What do the kids think about the clothing?
The tardiness is a different matter. Well same matter, different priority. Again W is not ensuring things are done correctly, on time, etc... That is pretty normal for an MLCer. You do need to look into the school attendance and get the actual facts. What days, how late, how often, etc... I would ask the school to inform you and W every time kids are late or missing school. Expecting the kids to attend school is not unreasonable. And yes that expectation will be missed at times, and it will drive you crazy, however that is one expectation that is not negotiable - it doesn’t remain at zero.
To soften that a little, 100% compliance with punctual attendance many be a little hard to achieve when dealing with W. Depending on just how often and severe the tardiness is, will allow you some freedom in where you draw that line in the sand.
In my experience all the school staff were very understanding. Of course, they all know us, and were totally blown away at what W had done, and all kept an eye on my kids. Showing up late for some classes (not the start of the day) was overlooked - sometimes my kids just had to go and cry in the bathroom or be angry for a spell before getting back to learning. Luckily, or unluckily, I live in a small town and W ensured the entire town knew what happened. Between that and her actions, I didn’t have to explain to much about my and the kids’ lives, and the problems interacting with W.
Well done with the theme park season passes. Getting one for W is a nice touch - for you, her, and the kids. I know you have heartfelt compassion and as I said with the daycare, this is not about money. Buying her a pass is great for the kids. I hope she uses it with them.
What are the kids favourite rides? Rollercoasters? Spinners? Swings? What about Hamburg, what is his favorite ride? And don’t say the park bench.
Even though after hours of keeping up with your kids that bench becomes really attractive.
Have a great day.
DnJ
I am so glad you didn't pay for the daycare when the children are with her. She needs to grow up and take on some responsibility and not look to you to be her savior on all things.
As for the mismatched clothes. You might want to consider purchasing some clothes for when the children are with you. Now, just be prepared that if you send those clothes home with the children, they will not come back as a matched set. I would keep the clothes at your place for when they come to stay with you.
I'm so glad that you and the children had a great time at the amusement park.
Keep up the good work!
Another conundrum. Child #1 birthday is a few weeks away. Previously, W spent MONTHS planning this stuff. W informed me she has no plans. Child's interpretation of what mommy told her was she will have a family part with mom and sister only.....at the house. She's not allowed to invite any friends or have a party outside the house. I am willing to do whatever it takes to throw her a nice party somewhere. Previous parties have been extravagant and always at home. W was the envy of the entire school and was known for her party planning. I am willing to involve W in the party but I may have to just do it myself. At what point is it safe to just pick whatever child wants, invite whomever she wants and just give W an invitation?
Sounds like now is the right time
I agree.
W informed you she has no plans.
Make the plans, pick a date that is during your time, invite the friends your child wants, arrange location and activities, and send W an invite.
I agree. Go ahead and start planning the party for your child.
Party booked! I let daughter choose place and she even went through the website and picked out some things on her own. Shes thrilled. Sent W a text and she was thankful. She offered help but I declined. Also told her she was invited and she seems interested.
Nice job! Your daughter will enjoy herself. I'm glad you let her mother know and you invited her.
Agree that now is the right time.
Communicate as if you were already divorced.
In this case, I would just maybe tell her to save the date and an invitation will follow.
If she asks if she can help, just say thanks, but you have everything under control.
W has accepted an invitation to the party. I hope she can hold it together.
I reached out to her to say I still care and let me know if she needs anything. She responded by saying it's tough for all of us and she is going through her own emotional journey and doesn't need to share the pain of mine. She added she will be returning the gifts I got for her over the past few months, including the theme park season pass-not to be vindictive but so she can show ability to support herself. I wonder if that will extend to her request for spousal support?
I get the kids this weekend and will take them out to pick some party decorations and such.
Meeting with Atty Friday to discuss the case. I will likely end up getting the house back, which I don't really want.
Hi H
You have done all the right and kind things for her
continue healing and separating
get the L advice and follow-
Maybe its a good sign that she wants to prove herself able to support herself-by not accepting gifts
maybe she needs to see that she can do this-
either way- just continue to take care of you as you are and be there for the kids-
more will be revealed about her as time passes-
I view her desire for some financial independence is good
Part of her journey is figuring herself out
Who she is without you
Have no expectations on it extending to suppprt
So the returned gifts include a bag, perfume and season pass to a theme park. No gift cards. I'm not angry, just thought maybe she had a moment of clarity for once.
On the plus side, house has an interested buyer and I'll pray they make an offer.
I'm sorry she returned the gifts, but maybe she felt that they were too personal for her at the moment. The gift cards...well...she needs them to purchase whatever her fancy is at that time. Now you know not to purchase anything personal or season passes for her in the future. She doesn't want any reminders of your when she looks at those gifts. The woman only wants money, i.e., which are not "in the face" reminders of you.
Good luck with the home offer.
Wife got served discovery papers, including a written deposition. I got a text from her pleading we not go through this process, nor mediation. She wants to settle ASAP. her claim is that Atty fees can be costly. I have a feeling she is hiding something big, that will be discoverable. There is too much at stake to avoid mediation.
She could very well be hiding something or....she is looking at what it is going to cost in attorney fees. She evidently doesn't want to face the consequences of her actions...which means money for those attorney fees. I would continue as you have been. You've been honest and forthcoming w/her, as well as providing her w/money on gift cards. You have to do what is right for you and your children.
I got a text from her pleading we not go through this process, nor mediation.
Ummm....if you don't even use mediation, what are you gonna do - write down a settlement on a paper sack?
Now - if she REALLY doesn't want to go through it, you COULD say "Ok, we'll use my attorney" and write up something that super favors yourself and see if she'll sign. But honestly, when children and child support and custody are involved, it's be foolish to do this without you both having attorneys, whether through mediation or otherwise.
What is it you think you might find through discovery? Did you not have a good grasp on her finances when you were together?
Through discovery I am hoping to obtain:
-Timeline of adultery and proof OM had been around the children from well before divorce was even an issue.
-financials. I know of several thousands of dollars used for furniture. There may have been more for hotels and gifts for OM.
-texts admitting to possible drug use and OM being around children. This is a violation of court order as of Jan.
This will lead to more favorable custody for me as well as splitting assets (equity in vehicles, disproportionate share of community property, etc). I want the best for my kids as well as my pocketbook.
I cannot imagine trying to settle outside of mediation. It is worth my time to have attorneys go over things with a fine tooth comb. I don't have the time to do it myself.
So now W is repeatedly texting and asking we not use lawyers. She hinted that she may have fired hers. I don't think we are able to sit together or even talk on the phone about things. She seems upset I haven't responded. Shes even sent out some texts meant for other people, followed by "oops, sorry that was for _________"
I cannot imagine trying this process without representation.
What can I expect from here on out? She's never been violent so I don't think that would happen. OM is very shady so I'm watching out for anything unusual. Does this process throw MLC'er into reality? Can I expect her suddenly wanting to reconcile? Perhaps send her further through the tunnel?
Read up on hoovering. That is what she is doing with the texts. Trust me from someone still dealing with this years later, stick with your lawyer and get it done. She just isn't liking the consequences of her choices.
I would definitely agree with the others
Continue with the L
Don't try to Divorce on your own and stopping the process will only prolong whatever she is doing and throw everything off track-
I don't think this process of D would throw them into reality for long-because the inner work is not done
She may be getting a glimpse of her dim future or maybe her L has told her of some possible outcomes that seem displeasing to her-
I think she could pretend to want to Reconcile to stop process and buy time- but I don't think she is done with OM or MLC
-she is scared and doesn't like the projected outcome-
Also, I have a friend who Divorced without an attorney
They agreed and did it all with whatever papers he wrote up
she believed her XH and she lost absolutely everything and once it was all signed and done she had little chance of getting anything
Your wife more than likely fired her lawyer because he/she was trying to advise her about what to expect and she didn't like the fact that he/she wasn't going to go along w/your wife's ideas....or...the lawyer advised her that she either get with the program or the lawyer would not take her on. Either way, we see this quite often in the MLC world, i.e., changing up of lawyers.
I would continue as you have been and stick w/your lawyer. You do not want to prolong this and she's in panic mode because she knows that the consequences of her actions are not going to be pretty. I agree w/Peace, she is definitely not done w/her MLC or the OM.
Continue moving forward and do not waffle on your decisions. She is hoping that by sending all of the texts, etc., you will waffle, feel sorry for her and drop the proceedings.
Thanks guys.
That all makes sense. In the beginning I was the one who did not want to use lawyers. I was scared and wanted to prolong things. I've learned a great deal about the legal process, the infidelity, and have a chance at getting my children. There is no way I'd do this solo now.
She has been saying its hard for her emotionally and financially. I don't buy it. Her outlook is indeed bleak. There is a chance I will have to pay her legal fees--something I would do if ordered to do so.
She says she wants to do this as quickly as possible in order to help the healing process. I don't buy this either.
Thanks mostly to this place I have learned the process of detachment. A few months ago I may have given in. Not now. Too much has happened.
Oldest kids birthday party is coming up. I went all out. It's the first party I've ever planned so hope all goes well. W tried to intervene and tell daughter certain kids weren't invited because their moms are nosey. I put a stop to that. I got a chance to talk to oldest on her actual birthday. On speakerphone, I could hear W mumbling something. Kid asks me if those kids (with nosey moms) RSVP'd. I said I didn't know. In truth, they have RSVP'd. I don't like the moms either but it's my kids party, not mine or hers. Additionally, W parents, my parents and W brother and family will be there. She doesn't know about her brother. She has told me to stay away from her family, but they have told me otherwise. I hope she doesn't lose her cool.
Interesting point dnj I never knew bd destroys them to . Why is that
Hello Hamburg
You are doing very well, and one can see you are more detached. It is good to see your clearer perspective and strength.
I am sure the birthday party will be just grand, even if it is your first timing planning one. Nice job not listening to W, and listening to daughter about which friends to invite. You’re right it is daughter’s party, and she can decide. I too, hope W doesn’t lose her cool - fingers crossed.
DnJ
R678 - I’ll pop over to your thread.
So I spoke with Atty and reached out to W regarding divorce. I asked her to email me what she wants for final decree. She asked first that I agree to NOT using Atty or mediation prior to any discussion. I said I cannot do that until she tells me her terms. She said I was playing games. After a few repetitive texts back and forth, it quickly devolved. I cannot imagine this. It would be like signing a contract before it is filled out. She filed motion for me to pay Atty fees based on the fact I won't respond to her. I'm sorry, but fantasy land must be a nice place to reside.
She is about to be served discovery and OM is being served notice to appear for a deposition. I was mistaken before, my Atty had not sent discovery yet. It is about to get ugly.
She then texted again saying she doesn't want to speak to me much right now and that I am stubborn. I told her we have to see each other this weekend for kids bday party and we need to put differences aside.
On the plus side, got a great offer on the house. She, of course, was not satisfied with the offer. I hope it all goes well.
Good Morning Hamburg
It looks like W still wants a D, but without you having legal counsel. Cannot make assumptions about her legal team, she may say she is going solo, but I think you can guess differently. You know you cannot sign a blank contract.
Her fantasy is starting to unravel regard the nice easy divorce in which everyone is friends and will sit on the deck sipping iced tea together. Well, that was my W’s future looking vision.
I think they share this common fantasy.
Keep this as a business deal. Continue to use a lawyer. Things are already in play so you might as well see them through. I’m not sure of the process where you live, what happens after discovery? Is there a separation order? A deadline?
Most likely - yes it is.
Be careful about expectations. It is good that you are preparing for her to get worse. However, she may very well just fade away and not do anything. If you are expecting her to blow up and she doesn’t - you will resent it. I know sounds weird. She could do something “better” and you won’t want that.
Expectations prepare us, initialize us for a certain outcome. When that doesn’t happen, we don’t feel right. Keep expectations to zero. Or an other way - expect anything.
Nice to hear about the house offer.
DnJ
We have been separated for 4 months. My state does not recognize separation so we are still technically married. Temp orders are in place until mediation.
Her claim for this is lack of funds. I cannot imagine doing this without a L--for either side. Mediation is in her best interest, as going to trial would be costly and damning for her in other ways I cannot share here.
She realizes there is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow. In the past, she has asked for 90% of property and several thousands per month in spousal support. My state does not have alimony and spousal support will be near impossible for her to get. OM has no job and lives with his parents.
I think it's about to come crashing down for her.
Hamburg,
Keep in mind that they tend to "project" a lot of things on to the LBS. For example, her stating that you are playing games and being stubborn. Most likely she's the one that is attempting to move the chess pieces across the board in her favor. No one signs a blank contract. As for being stubborn, looks to me like the fantasy princess is the one being stubborn about a lot of things.
Continue as you have been. Listen to your lawyer. I think you have been and continue to be more than fair. As for the offer on the house...what did she not like about it? This may be something that can be pushed a bit w/the divorce decree. If she doesn't agree to sell, then you may want to speak to your lawyer about giving her the option of either burying you out within 90-120 days from the signing of the divorce decree or it's sold. She cannot have it all. She's going to find out that life isn't all about fairy dust and fantasy.
As for discovery, do you think that she will be able to prepare her responses to that? Keep your expectations at zero because I do not think she's going to life a hand to get this divorce done. Dig deeper for patience.
BTW, I think you've been handling your situation very well. I'm sure the birthday party will be a wonderful success.
Thanks, Job.
Discovery is an expensive process but I don't want to leave any stone unturned. There is likely a trove of information that I don't know about, which will be beneficial to my case. She has 30 days to respond or face contempt of court.
I'm praying all goes well with the party. W met with her sister from out of town last week. W only stipulation was that she bring OM with her. The family does not like him. W parents are in town this weekend and I'm thinking she will attempt this with them. Last time it did not go well and parents left town.
The D does tend to get UGLY
In my case my XH got very angry-
he expected he would get more-
the only problem was he and OW were spending more money gambling, drinking ect than we had-
and he ran out-
Because he drained the funds in our business- he lost it and I got it.
I restored it-
The D is a business deal and although things do get ugly, your main goal is to take care of you and the kids
the courts will be fair-
but I think most judges and L see this kind of stuff all day long, and they know the stories
they understand MLC
they see it everyday-
Hang in there and good luck at the party
In my case, my xh was okay until I had a draft separation agreement drawn up (per his instructions). Once he got the draft separation papers, he became a very angry man and stayed that way for about 5 years. He realized that he wasn't going to get everything his way. He thought he could dictate what he wanted and it would happen. He should have known that I wasn't going to roll over and give him whatever he wanted. He should have known that I had worked w/lawyers and used the law library whenever I wanted to look things up. I guess he "assumed" that I loved him enough to give him everything...he soon found out it didn't happen.
As Peace pointed out, the divorce is a business deal. It is dealing w/a contract that has been broken and now the parties involved have to come to the table and separate assets, etc. No one wins when this type of action takes place. Lawyers and judges see this behavior more and more. Some lawyers will say and do anything to keep the MLCer coming back and racking up billable hours. I hope your lawyer realizes that you mean business and not tolerate unnecessary expenses along the way.
Yes, it may get ugly. Strap yourself in and be prepared for a bumpy ride.
My L is one of the best in the city and can get aggressive. He is honest about expenses and very upfront about expectations. W is poorly represented and her L is not that experienced.
Yes, I feel she just expects to snap her fingers and make things happen. Doesn't want to do inventory on property, wants to drop L. Divorce is a tedious, dehumanizing process and I will not leave any stone unturned. I'll regret it the rest of my life if we don't go through things with a fine tooth comb. Somehow W doesn't see it that way.
I'll regret it the rest of my life if we don't go through things with a fine tooth comb.
This is good. As best you can, get through this with the least regrets as possible.
Birthday party was good. Kids had an absolute blast.
Wife was moping around and we didn't even speak. I remained upbeat. I got dirty looks from her as I talked and laughed with her family. She left for about 20 minutes, pretty sure she was crying. We both kept to a small group of friends. It was weird at first but I got used to it. The most important thing is the kids seemed not to notice the hostility.
As we left, I got no acknowledgement from W. Her family was very grateful.
My XH had a terrible L and My L knew that
MY XH didn't care..
He didn't have much money left to spend by the time of the D, and he had to sell his motorcycle to pay fees..It was expensive
But for me worth it-
I wanted to make sure me and my kids got all we could
they were young, and I was a stay at home Mom up to that point-
Im glad the party went ok
You are doing really well-
Life's better on the high road. You did well.
Good job Hamburg. Well done.
I am so glad that the party was a blast for the kids. As for your wife, I'm glad she came...but she felt uncomfortable being there seeing that everyone was having a good time. When she left, she took home a lot of happy memories to mull over in the days ahead.
I'm glad your in-laws are civil and appear to be there for you and the kids. That says a lot about what they think is going on w/their daughter.
You did a great job!
Well I thought the weekend would go smoothly. Her parents and I were supposed to have breakfast today before they left town. Her mom and dad are divorced, but remain good friends and travel together sometimes. Mom stayed with W and dad stayed with brother in law. Her dad got a text around 11pm asking they leave town first thing in the morning. I got a text early, apologizing they can't attend breakfast and must leave ASAP. No details yet, but it cannot be remotely positive.
A little backstory. At Christmas, W gave parents an ultimatum that they accept she, OM, and kids as a package deal or they will not get to see the kids. MIL called me and I picked her up, put her in hotel and got her a rental car the next day. Her dad later flew home. They have had minimal contact with W since that time.
I am doing OK, just want this to be over. I pray my kids are not witness to this kind of stuff. Her family wants to do an intervention, but that would likely end in nuclear war.
Is it appropriate to ask some of our common friends to check on W periodically? She looked terrible yesterday, and I am the LAST person she will come to for help. I am deeply concerned for her as well as the kids.
Hello Hamburg
It does sound like something happen between W and her Mom again. I agree with you, an intervention from her family would end badly.
Is it appropriate to ask some of our common friends to check on W periodically? She looked terrible yesterday, and I am the LAST person she will come to for help. I am deeply concerned for her as well as the kids.
Yes, you are pretty much the last person she will come to, or listen to, or take help from. Common friends that attempt to “help” are usually quickly discarded as well.
Friends, family, etc... that wish to contact W, can. I wouldn’t push anyone to visit or check in on her. Common friends pick a side (your’s or her’s) or try to remain neutral. Asking someone to check in puts them in a difficult position, and they will suffer the consequences of W’s behaviour, which they could blame on you. Best to just let them all sort out their interactions with her.
I found my situation to be very polarizing and most of our common friends did not remain neutral, choosing her or me. Any that questioned her actions found out just how much she wanted them in her life. I also found it interesting with those who followed along with her fantasy.
I do understand how you would like to help her and how terrible she looks. MLCers don’t want help and won’t accept it. They don’t believe they need any help, and you really can’t force help onto a person.
Look after yourself and your kids. Be kind, be compassionate, and leave her to God.
DnJ
I agree w/DnJ...sounds like your wife wasn't playing very nice last evening w/her mother. Generally, while in the throes of MLC some actually do not get along w/their parents and/or siblings. Why? Because family is concerned and tries to reason w/them and point out the error of their ways. MLCers don't like that.
As for asking friends, etc. to check on your wife periodically...your wife is just fine. Looking bad is all part of the journey for them. They tend to get sick quite often, they don't eat properly, nor do they get a full night's sleep. Why? Depression at its finest and the demons at night like to play handball in their heads when all is quiet w/no distractions.
Keep the focus on you and your children. Your wife is doing all of the typical things that a crisis person does.
So apparently, W was upset I invited her brother and his kids to the party. She did not acknowledge a single one of them, even her nieces and nephews. She later translated this onto her parents in a nuclear explosion. I'm sure it was embarrassing for her friends to witness my family and hers mingling and laughing together. We all just hung out like nothing has happened, just like old times. I did not invite them for that reason. My daughter made the guest list, chose the venue, cake, decorations, music and theme. I just paid for it.
I've learned that nothing should surprise me anymore but each day something new comes up and has us all scratching our heads. We must be miles away from rock bottom.
miles for sure
hang in there
So house officially sold and closes in about 6 weeks. W almost broke the deal over $500. This is an expensive home and the buyer in this price range would walk away easily because they have more options. Realtor was livid and so was I. Almost had to file emergency court order for relief. Thankfully I offered her the $500 so she would sign. She reluctantly accepted after giving me an earful. That's now behind us. I get the kids Easter weekend and she doesn't want to see them Easter Sunday. Quite sad. I have some fun things planned for us.
I am glad to come here this morning and read that your house sold. I know it was a difficult decision and you had to deal w/your wife, i.e., to get her to agree to the sale. $500 won't break you and at least it's now a done deal and you can move on from there. So glad you have the children for Easter. Any plans for entertaining them?
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Last stages of divorce