Gordie 23 one year after she dropped the D

Prior thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2813211#Post2813211

Welcome to your new thread.

I am glad to read about the positive changes.

Many have commented on keeping those expectations v low. So no need for me to echo them. Treat it as a good sign but remember until you arrive at the destination you are only going in the right direction. But that beats going in the wrong direction where there are no signs pointing to where you want to go.

My main advice to you is to resist a while longer before addressing your need to be heard about your side of this. For the moment she is still unsure about you. Until she is 100% sure, best to leave her "cook". That time will come. You will make sure that it does, so no need to worry about that.

Do what you can to dissipate that resentment. It will do you only harm and could jeopardize further progress. You are right to feel resentment and betrayal, or at least it is normal. You could pick your moment and release all of that built up resentement and let her know she was wrong and hence you are right. But being right isn't everything. Dig a little deeper for patience.

Read up on resentment.

Best wishes

Roist

Thank you as always

I am trying to be more positive about things

To keep expectations low

And yes to hold back a while longer

You are right that she still says and does things that communicate she is unsure

I have been praying to release all resentment

When I think I have forgiven

I find I have to forgive a little more

It is a process

And as someone else says

You can be right or you can be married

Journaling

W and I have changed as people

There are things we still like about each other

But there are things we dislike about each other too

W is starting to articulate some of those things she does not like

I listen and try to be receptive

If I try to say anything I dislike about her

It is not met receptively

So I keep those thoughts to myself

After our love making at Christmas

She has distanced herself again physically

We are back in the same bed

But she stays far on her side

And does not want me to touch her

I have focused on non sexual touching

She is more receptive to this

I can give her a hug

I can give her a back rub

She now welcomes this

We can hug or kiss hello or goodbye

W has rejoined family meals

But she does not like my cooking

This is a source of stress

So yes overall things continue to get better

One day at a time

Gordie:

Sense more of a calm from you about all of this. Good to keep those expectations low. Seeing mine now 2x in a month after not seeing him for 1.5 years sure makes me think what you are doing is impressive. All I can think is, "what the hell did I ever see in this guy?" Yes you can be right or married, yes you have to shovel it now, but in all likelihood, you will get a chance to move past some of this in the future.

Gordie, I have been thinking about you, praying for you, wondering about you. I am happy to see you posting.

I am not happy to hear about how much W criticizes you. For some reason the idea that she sits at the dinner table and criticizes a meal you made was to me worse than the other things. A man cooking me a meal is a dream I cannot imagine ever coming true.

Her continuing to criticize you breaks my heart because you are one of the best men in the world.

But I understand that the scales have not come off her eyes yet, and that it will take a long time. I love your patience.

I am not sure I understand why you are having relationship talks. From the outside it seems like she is not herself yet. But I guess you are just trying to listen. Are you afraid that if you don't listen, she will run again?

I wonder what Job has to say about this. I am wanting you to have a boundary --e.g., when my H tries to criticize me, I usually leave the room after letting one or two go by. But I have never been in that stage you are in now, where there is a return. Seems like her return is still in the stage of trying to change you. Maybe you can't have a boundary now or don't feel like you need one.

I don't know if you read the e-mail I posted from my H; it got a lot of comments as it was very abusive. But nothing unusual since BD3. I was actually kind of surprised that it got so much attention on these boards as I have posted his e-mails before. And because I thought all of us had the same kind of e-mails or comments or diatribes from our spouses. I didn't think mine was that unusual. I remembered what you said about possible replies when I asked you once. I am thinking about that in the context of your W. I guess you are giving those sorts of replies.

I hope that most of all, when she criticizes you, that you have your eyes on Christ. Sometimes I pretend He is sitting on the ledge of the window, looking in at me when my H is being horrible. In the past, when my H would be in the car with us, I would picture Christ running alongside the car or sitting on top of the hood. It's a little like the mini Gordie, DnJ and Job on my mantle, but... Well, it's CHRIST! This helps me to keep my eyes on God's love, goodness, compassion, mercy and off of the ridiculous and hurtful words coming out of my H's mouth. Maybe you can try that. Maybe you are already trying that.

Gordie, I am sending you many prayers. I am happy to "see" you.

I wish I could lend you a patience shovel but I have none to spare!! Though an order for more has been placed!!

I was curious to see how your W reacted in the aftermath and going forward. On these boards it has been known that the holiday season can often give rise to extra contact or better interactions in some cases, which disappear just as quickly afterwards. There are many explanations for this, but that doesn't really matter to the LBS. the fact she continues to sleep together since is a big step even though as it is, is surely less comfortable for you than apart. Give her the time and space she requires. She may just be signalling to you that things are not fully there yet so the distance is just a slow down sign not to assume everything is rosey and physical affection can continue as newlyweds. She could have gone back to her room, so that is positive.

Yes there are a lot of positives in your situation. Keep focusing on them. Encourage them. As for the negatives, that's where the patience shovel is needed. Our wives are still a bit self centered and look at the world from their perspective seeing mostly what is good or bad for them. I understand that is difficult, but look at it as another phase to get through as one way or another it will too pass. TBH those negative comments are like drops of water that are at first easily shrugged off (relatively easier) but over time wear through our protection and hurt. Each comment in itself may be minor but the accumulation does take its tole.

As you said things are improving day by day. Focus on that. Look to where you are heading without measuring how far you still have to go but rather how far you have come. She isn't ready to look at her bad points nor your good points for the instant but that time will come. Again don't stress about that happening as you will make sure it does further down the line.

I would just caution you to hold strong and not let her dictate all the terms of how things progress. Follow her lead but make your own decisions about what is ok or not at each stage. Let stuff slide to allow progress without being a pushover.

Best wishes Gordie

Hi Gordie,

thanks for checking in on my thread. You have experience and wisdom that I can only hope to achieve, and above that, patience. Your gratitude in noticing the little things that are positive is something I have noticed. I would say that even though your cooking may not be the best, it's food, which is a blessing we can all overlook, but should be grateful for. Of course, a WS seems to have a hard time thinking past the end of his or her nose sometimes.

Tiptoeing around your own W is not fun, and it is not how marriage is supposed to be. But things don't always go how they're supposed to. I'm hoping for continued progress for your sitch.

Gordie

you are doing an amazing job with your situation

Oneart

Yes, more calm, still some days better than others, but overall better

I find your observation about different MLC types interesting

Your H was a runner

My W wanted to stay put and push me out

Your H prefers not to express himself

My W likes to provide a play by play commentary

Gerda

We used to keep Christian icons around our home as reminders of our faith

When W changed her beliefs all of those icons vanished

But in my mind�s eye I can still look in a corner and see the former icon

Roist

When my patience shovel wears out

I now know where I can get a new one

Agree that we are in the MBR together is a good sign

Even if there are no sexual relations

It is what it is

Negative comments like drops of water

Wow that struck a nerve

From someone who knows

And absolutely trying strike that balance

Of giving her time and space to bake more

While also being strong and true to myself

Over

You are right that tiptoeing around is no fun

It is much better than before but

When I catch myself doing it

I try to stop

It is no way to live

Peace

Thank you for the encouragement

Journaling

So have been thinking of this new wave of criticism

MWD says when w stops complaining it means she has given up

I think that is where w was in the years before BD

So I am looking at these complaints as a good sign

Not fun to be blamed for everything

But at least she cares and has not given up

My old self would escalate and argue

My new self just listens

And sometimes I just have to laugh

Her old complaint was I never cook

Her new complaint is she does not like my cooking

She did not like my long hair so I cut it

Now she does not like my short hair

SMH

And today I got one of the positive signs I was looking for

She actually said thank you for something

Something I do everyday

But it was like she noticed for the first time

One day at a time

Journaling

So w asked me to go on a little day trip with her

Where and what we were doing was not fully shared

I sensed something serious but just stayed calm

And left myself open to what was to come

After a few hours we drove to a place I had never been before

W explained that this was the place

Where she suffered trauma as a teenager

She asked me to stay in the car

And she walked to a very specific spot

And sat down and cried

After a while she returned to the car

And we drove home in silence

Holding hands

Wow.

That is big stuff.

She opened up and shared that.

You did very well, keeping calm, and letting her lead. She will share with you, all those answers you seek, be patient it is working.

You know she will most likely want to talk to you about her trauma at some point. Be calm, validating, supportive, and follow where ever she leads the conversation.

This has to be incredible difficult for her. Remain strong for both of you.

You�re a lighthouse buddy. Shine bright!

DnJ

I started crying as soon as I got to the part where she started crying. And then cried even harder at the part where you held hands.

There is nothing to my mind more loving than holding hands. It's so unnecessary. It's purely an effort to be present to each other, viscerally -- and to sort of meld into one via the hands.

(I still remember holding hands with my H the first time I knew we would become something. We hadn't kissed or anything. I still remember the street we were on when he took my hand.)

This is so huge that she wanted to go there, that she wanted to see the wound, that she wanted to understand it and heal it. And that she wanted you to be there while she did that.

I am so happy for you.

She is coming to terms with her past and wanted to share it with you because she trusts you......as her husband.

You are handling her beautifully.

It�s working.

I�m welling up here. (((Gordie and W)))

Gordie - that is very profound. She is willing to start dealing with her past that plagues her in the present, and for her to want you to be there, that's so moving. I'm glad for you, but glad for her too that she is willing to perhaps start dealing with it.

yes I agree
a lot of movement on her part toward healing and understanding what happened to her even how it affected her in the now-
also a lot about her level of trust to you-

That car ride was huge. Glad things are moving in a positive way for you.

DNJ Westo Grace Peace Kate

Thank you for all of your well wishes

Agree this was a big event

A step in processing what was not processed

Thirty some years ago

She had never gone back

So after we got home I did break the ice

How are you feeling?

More tears and w taking

I listened

We hugged

One day at a time

One day at a time

So happy for you Gordie. For both of you.

You are doing all the right things.

I�m following and praying

Irish

Gord, I've been following along from the shadows. Keep up the good work and know that you have many people that are praying for you daily. Maybe we can be your reminder...you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

I cannot totally understand what you are going thru since I have not been in your shoes, but I do know that you seem to have the gift of being able to use the advice given here to your benefit. I am just glad that your wife seems to be moving in the right direction and that you have the strength and patience to walk the path with her.

God bless!!!

Not to be a smart @$$, but I laughed hard when you talked about your long hair vs short hair. Mine had been getting shorter and shorter over the years and I kind of stopped cutting it. Yesterday a buddy called me Grizzly Adams, so I guess it might be time to trim it up again and do something with this beard.

Gordie:

If she shared something like this with you, she is showing you vulnerability and taking you to a place that she could not even when you thought your marriage was great. This is huge. A giant, blinking signpost. Something to give you energy to sustain you on the rest of this maddening voyage.

Gordie,

I too believe it is a promising sign, on many fronts:

For you: as has been said she has opened up even if only a small bit about a painful period of her life. So at some level she has a deep connection to you. She could have gone alone, but chose (for her reasons) for you to be there. Although those reasons could be selfish and self-centered, she still chose for you to go. For whatever reason she wanted you to be with her. Her reasons may or may not surface given time, but you can look at it as a huge positive. Be grateful for it but don't dwell on it.

For her: This shows she is thinking about something painful from her childhood. She is facing it and not running/hiding. That is a good start to getting past it. she needed/wanted support and you were there for her. The important part of that is that in that moment she let down her defences and let you in. She showed her emotions. Some WAS do similar stuff to seek pity as in they have such problems it excuses their behaviour; I do not sense that it in this case.

For ye: holding hands even in silence is significant. Not only is it a sign of connection, but it also prolonged the moment she shared with you.

For me the best way to respond would be to thank her for sharing a difficult part of her life and to state that if she ever wants to discuss it you are there. Then leave her take the next step. No pressure, no inquiring, nothing. In rebuilding a R you need to place strong foundations one piece at a time. This piece is hers and you cannot build on it. Only she can do so without it collapsing. So continue what you are doing working on other parts of that foundation.

Best wishes

Irish SBJ Oneart Roist

It is so meaningful that you guys stopped by to comment

You guys have been with me from the beginning

SBJ I never pictured you as the Grizzly Adams type

Funny how we picture others here

So to be clear my long hair was never really long

Just grown out some

Oneart thank you for your womanly perspective

Indeed she never did when I thought the M was great

What a great way to frame this

I will bank this positive memory

Journaling

I am not a big football fan

I watch one full game per year, the Super Bowl

So here are how the last three have gone

Super Bowl LI w comes to me during the half time show demanding we finalize our agreement in front of the children so I leave the family room and that�s what we do for the rest of the evening

Super Bowl LII w spends the night locked in her room

Super Bowl LIII w keeps coming in the family room and asking me to do little things for her: can you change this lightbulb? Can you take out the trash?

#TeamGordie

Andrew thank you

So I was reading Sandi2�s post about piecing which includes a lot of Blu�s thoughts as well + Joe�s

She lays out a clear rule

There must be clear and definitive remorse and reconciliation before piecing

In all of their cases they had clear remorse and reconciliation

There was the I am so sorry and I want to work on us talk from the wayward spouse

Well, what if that never happens?

My thoughts:

1. Rules are nice guidelines but life is messier and doesn�t always follow the rules

2. MLC is different and doesn�t follow these rules

3. Actions speak louder than words

So that makes me wonder where am I?

So as DNJ says

Let�s be clear eyed and look at the facts

13 months ago she and OM2 breakup and she drops the D

And tells me she is focusing on herself

She does not know if she wants to be married

But she knows she does not want to be divorced right now

We continue to live like roommates in separate bedrooms

Anger directed at me diminishes

She takes more interest in the children and family life

We start acting friendlier towards one another

We talk more and spend more time together

We are getting to know each other more

We are rebuilding a friendship

At some point she resumes wearing her wedding ring

Extreme dieting and exercise end

Physically she looks healthier

And she spends more time at home

We start going on platonic dates

Dates increase in regularity

But sometimes she does not feel like it

And that is okay with me because I do not expect them

We never have R talks

I resume giving her gifts which are important to her

We make love at Christmas

And she moves back into MBR

But does not want to resume regular sexual relations

She opens up to me about her childhood trauma

She takes me there

She starts asking me to do more things for her

She seems less angry at the world but still angry

There are days when she seems unhappy

There are days when she seems happy

She is focused on health

She does not want to age

She does not want to get sick

She does not want to die

There are days she wants my attention

There are days she wants to be left alone

She continues exploring her new religious beliefs

She wants me to accept her new beliefs even if I do not share them

We have never spoken of her OMs

She has never shown any remorse

Any time children even hint at what happened

She shuts them down

Gordie,

You and your wife are in what I call "reconnection". Reconnection can take up to 18-24 months, depending on her and her environment. It takes them just as long to reconcile and come back to earth as it did for them to go into crisis. Piecing comes w/reconnection. It takes time and you can't rush the process.

She will, one day, talk to you about her remorse, but that will come later. She still has some issues to work through before that happens. Be patient, when she's ready, she will talk to you about her situation. Some think that they can sweep everything under the rug, but people can't move forward that way, everything has to be worked out and a new marriage created. Patience is the key right now. I know you want to put all of this behind you and she apologize and talk things out w/you, but she's not ready. She is on her on clock right now to get things done and that means slow.

I do not know if you read the reconnection thread, but I'm posting the link here for you:

TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection (New)

Job thank you

That is just what I needed today

Think I read that long ago when it did not apply

This stage is the hardest because they are starting to return and we, the lbs, get very impatient. She really is still in a fragile state and you will need to continue to treat her like a skittish kitten for a while.

Patience, listening and validating right now are the major keys.

Continue as you have been and keep the focus on you and your children.

Good Morning Gordie

You are strong and stable.

Seeing clearly and compassionately.

A lighthouse beaming into her darkness.

A beacon for her and others, following your beliefs.

Originally Posted by Gordie

So that makes me wonder where am I?

You are right where you are meant to be.

Much Respect
DnJ

Originally Posted by Gordie

My thoughts:

1. Rules are nice guidelines but life is messier and doesnt always follow the rules

2. MLC is different and doesnt follow these rules

3. Actions speak louder than words

So that makes me wonder where am I?

There are many variables in each situation so in a way you are right, everything here is more guidelines than rules. But those rules/guidelines are based on good principles. In this case I think (and I restate this is only my interpretation/understanding), that if certain matters are swept under the carpet, true reconnection cannot occur. Yes the phases can be passed through and real improvement may be experienced, but eventually if left unaddressed, it will undermine that progress and could well unravel it.

This could be on two fronts:
1. The WAS has not had to really acknowledge the wrongs they have done. I believe this has to be done or otherwise they never really have to think about and ultimately accept that they treated the LBS poorly. If that is not realized, they do not have a true picture of the situation and in the future if things are no longer perfect all they remember is how your faults almost split ye up before!!, hence making it easier to follow the same path without other reflection
2. The LBS could experience resentment if this is never addressed. That resentment could undermine any future R.

In summary I believe it is a healthy rule/guideline.

I imagine in your case it is imaginable that W may not be forthcoming with such a strong declaration. Only time can tell. In that eventuality, once reconnection has taken place, the lbs can bring up the topic IMO. It is the healthy thing to do. BUT, as job has explained now isn't the time for pushing her. Accept that this will still take another long time to knit together and be patient

One final observation, but everything you listed reads like a classic script. The good news about that is that if you follow the guidelines about that script you will get to where you want to be E V E N T U A L L Y.

So what are you going to do for yourself whilst being patient. Sitting watching the grass grow or paint dry doesn't make it happen any faster but sure feels longer. I am about to signup for a sporting event later this year that should take about six hours to finish or longer if training doesn't go as planned! This is a big commitment from me (time and energy mostly) and a huge challenge, but it also changes my focus. So I ask again, what are you going to do for you this year?

Best wishes

I think where you are is exactly where God needs you to be right now for her and for you.

We always think there must be some mistake (think of Ananias), that we have to tell him how bad it is and make sure He knows how we want it fixed, and to remind Him that we are doing our part and we are tired.

What you are going through now is what I long to go through some day. From my vantage point, it looks amazing, perfect, slowly unraveling with something amazing at the center of that knot, like Thumbelina coming out of the flower.

I truly believe that your W will understand what she did and what you did in response one day. The way Job describes it seems perfect and will help you have confidence in waiting.

And I think that at the same time she will come back to Christ. I think the latter will allow the former. But definitely not on your timing.

And in the meantime, watching you wait it out is helping all of us and no doubt will help all who come across your threat for years to come.

DNJ

Thank you for reminding me I am right where I am supposed to be

Roist

Good point about watching paint dry

I am guilty of that

And hoping by watching I can make it speed up

I am not an ultra marathon type guy

But a good prod to make some goals separate from w

Gerda

You are so sweet

And while I think I am far from exemplary

I do hope leaving all of these threads behind

Does someone some good now and in the future

I try to keep it real

Inclusive of all of my hopes and doubts

Not painting a picture too rosy or gloomy

But as accurate as I am able to see

Journaling

So one weekly point of tension comes every Sunday morning

Gordie and the kids getting ready and heading off to church

Every Sunday w acts annoyed that we are going to church

Not sure what to do about that

She has made it clear she does not want to go to church

She has also made it clear she wants to be included in family activities

Given that conflict I just ignore her negative vibes

Once we return home there is no negative vibe

It is just felt in the pre church routine

On a positive note

W has been doing more little things for me

And sending me friendlier less business like text messages

In addition my daughter wrote me a valentine

Expressing what a great dad I am

And thanking me for always taking care of her

That felt really nice

Keep strong and keep warm

And peace be with you all

From the MWD newsletter:

"I think you hit the nail on the head. Commitment is what makes marriages work through all kinds of challenges.

Those of us who have been married forever (Wayne and I have been married 47 years and counting) know that life has its ups and downs not to mention the twists and turns no one can predict when you first fall in love.

If you want to know before you get married if it will work you have to look not only at your future partners values, behavior and the way they deal with challenges--you must become aware of your own.

You and your partner need to be committed to making it work. Long term happy marriages don't just happen-- you make them happen.

And by the way they won't always be happy--there will be some very tough times when you will question not only why you married this person, but why you are staying married.

Love will seem far away and very difficult to find--that is when commitment and "right attitudes" and having healthy values and even skills keep you there trying until you can find the love that was there all along just buried under the suffering that life sometimes dishes out....

Thanks for the inspiration--I just wanted to let you know I think you were right on."

April

W unexpectedly initiated a R talk

How she is unhappy with me

How she wants more than I can give her

How we are just friends

How she is not sexually attracted to me

How I only think about me

How I want her to be the person she used to be

Why we are religously incompatible

I did my best to listen and validate

I feel terrible

Gordie,

I can understand that you feel terrible about the conversation, but she is still in the tunnel and evidently she felt safe in talking to you. At the moment, that is how she feels, Today? Well, that could be a different story. The fluctuate between being unhappy and being happy. Do not take what she told you personally. If there is a dart of truth in what she said, then you have something to work on. If you know that what she said isn't true, then shake it off.

Continue as you have been. There are going to be moments of this type of talk because she is still trying to figure out why she feels the way that she does. Depression takes time to work through.

Please, please do not allow her talk w/you take you down in the rabbit hole.

Good Morning Gordie

That�s a tough conversation to listen to. Dig deep, remain calm, and be patient.

Of course you feel terrible. That was terrible. I do feel for you. (((Gordie)))

Remember it is still about her. She has just shared a very traumatic event with you (there may be more than one), that has to stir some stuff up from within her. She still is figuring it all out.

Be that lighthouse, keep guiding her by being you and living well. She will follow when she is ready and able.

It is good that she is speaking to you, and telling you her feelings. They�re just feelings, they seem real to her right now, today. They will change. She is processing her feelings, and that is a very good thing.

Be patient, she has a lot of work to get her cars lined up.

DnJ

#TeamGordie

It's tough when the expectations we try to push down are quashed. There really is no way to tell if this truth that she shared with you yesterday is the truth she's living today.

You aren't going to like me saying this but also won't be surprised. Make sure you dust off those ducks of your's. They may need to be lined up again. If this is consistent she may be setting the stage for wandering off again.

You have so very much to be proud of Gordie. Especially of the man you are.

Gordie- That sounds like it must have been an enormously difficult talk you had with your wife. Listening and validating sounds like the best things you could have done. Keep on keeping on!

Gordie:

I think this is one of those times to remember that when those icky close feelings come for them, they want to distance. Also, she is disordered in her personal relationships and likely wants you to chase her. I would view this as nothing more than a part of the process, don't take it personally, and get back to DBing like a champ until she pulls her head out of her you know what. You are bigger than this. You have survived worse. DB, DB, DB!!!

Prayers my brother...I feel your pain and your hurt and wish that I could make it go away from all of us, but we are made strong through our weakness. I heard that somewhere...haha! Know that you have a huge support system here and we will stand with you for the long haul.

(((Gordie))) My H said pretty much the same things to me. It hurts, no doubt. But as everyone says...these are feelings she is having right now and feelings can, and often do, change. Sometimes they don't. It would be nice if there was a way to predict whose feelings will change and whose won't but according to the people who have been on here a long time, there isn't. We all just have to focus on ourselves and our kids and let our spouses go on the journey they need to in order to figure out who they are. We can still love them and not be with them, as painful as that prospect is. That really is the ultimate test of loving someone... being willing to let them go even when everything in us wants to hang on. I tell myself that every day and it does help. Your sitch is different though as your W is still at home. My sense is that she is still feeling a lot of pressure from you even though you are trying not to put that on her. As OneArt suggests... try not to take it personally and double down on the DBing efforts so that you will be okay no matter how this turns out in the end. We are all pulling for you Gordie. You will get through this...one way or the other. Believe it!! (((HUGS)))

Gordie,

That's a hard conversation considering your recent progress. I believe that is one reason they say that piecing is one of the more trying parts of this whole ordeal. Not sure if you are at the piecing stage, but you have definitely made measurable forward progress and I imagine that a conversation like that is like a kick in the teeth. Also a reason that I think that having a live in MLCer is so difficult...because you get to experience all their ups and downs, however fleeting they may be.

You are a good man and I know you will make the right decisions in how to handle yourself. I think one thing we all have in common is that we all analyze every piece of our situations weighing in as much perspective and morality as we can before making a decision on how to react and move forward. Thats how we all ended up on this site. Just remember that you have friends here that understand what you are going through.

(((Gordie)))

Job thank you for reassuring me that all of this is normal and maybe expected

In terms of going down the rabbit hole

O that temptation is there to either to either fight fire with fire

Or lick my wounds and retreat into myself

But trying to rally and pick myself up

DNJ thank you for the reminder that

Feelings are feelings

And that lighthouse does not bow or bend in the storm

O man I guess I was not expecting this

Andrew no offense taken

I am fully aware

This sounded so much like a pre BD speech

I was waiting for it

I found OM3 or whatever

Oneart

I know you are right

But it is so hard not to take it personally

She definitely wants me to chase her

But conversations like this push me away

SBJ the very long haul

I could not think straight this morning

All I could do was pray

Dejavu I know you can relate

We all have heard such similar things

I just do not know how to balance this

I want you to pursue me

I do not want you to put pressure on me

Sjohn6

Thank you man

You have been in my corner a very long time

One day at a time

Does not make for romantic Valentine�s Day feelings

Venting

I am angry

I am tired

I am frustrated

I feel rejected

I am craving affection

I am lonely

God help me

((((((Gordie.)))))))))

I felt the knife in my heart when I read what your W said. And I don't know why at all but I immediately wanted to tell you to read the Book of Tobit. So I think you had better do so, as it obviously didn't come from my own head to tell you that.

GORDIE -- We assure you -- it's so obviously not about you. I know it feels like it is. I am suffering terribly right now for the same reason. But it's not about you. You are just the one standing there, and your open willingness to love, your peace, indicts her.

Reminds me exactly of my H finding any reason he can for his pain. First BD was justified by saying how awful I was so he could justify OW, who he called his "secret other wife." He told me he was not adulterous, it was me who had been adulterous "from the day we married" because I didn't know how to be a wife.

Second BD was about money, to justify the two years after BD. Even after all the account sharing and spreadsheets recommended here, he couldn't see that the only problem with money was that I was keeping us afloat on nothing.

Third BD justified his decision to D so he could get that money that was driving BD 2. He seems to have forgotten any hurt he might have caused by all that happened since BD 1 or the wild spending that led me to try to protect my own money from him.

And now we are on BD4, where he has constructed a narrative around our kids, that I don't "let" him be a dad. His custody demands included a directive that I never call him when he is with them because he does not need me to "control" his time with them.

I would wonder if it was about me but I don't think I have called him in literally a couple of years, with or without the kids (and he is almost never with them).

Point of my illustration is, your W thought maybe she should come back to get rid of the pain. She tried it, she even tried sex with you, tried sleeping in your room, etc. And the pain didn't go away. Then she tried revisiting the pain with you there and it probably hurt more than ever. So she came up with a reason, that it's all because of you, and she has a nice list of all her "proofs." She thinks she can prove it to you. My H does the same in his long long e-mails.

W can leave again, she can stay, she can have another OM or never have one. The pain isn't going to go away until she recognizes her wound and stops blaming it on anything else. God is the one offering to heal her and she is refusing, she is turning her back on God. He will keep trying.

This path is horribly difficult. Don't doubt yourself ever. You are an amazing man. Your love can't bear this situation, but the love of God can, so just keep asking Him to give you His. Will be praying for you and for your W.

And -- Colossians 1:24.

(((((((GORDIE)))))))))))

Gordie, you have every right to have every single one of those feelings. You don't have to do this. You don't have to keep taking it. Maybe it is time for her to hear some of your truths, since she seems so capable of dispensing her own.

You could ask her to leave until she figures out what she wants. Some people really have to lose everything before they wake up (if they do). I'm sure that everyone in your life would understand if you made that choice.

The choice is yours. But you have to make it. Don't keep yourself trapped. Speak your peace or ask her to go or let her stay and detach for your own sanity. She still has a lot to figure out and she doesn't get to keep hurting you while she does it. Do something to regain your own power.

(((((Gordie)))))

Virtual Hugs....

I can't imagine what that feels

ONE DAY AT A TIME

Gerda Oneart Marina

Thanks for checking in on me

I needed to vent those feelings and acknowledge that they are real

I prayed to God to help me

And yes I felt loved

Loved by God

And not alone

And then I decided to try one of my DB tools

To act as if this didn�t bother me

As if she wanted to see me

To fake it until I made it

And she responded as if she was happy to see me

So yes her feelings are real

I am thankful she is expressing them to me

As much as it hurts

And yes her feelings change

But my beliefs do not change

Thanks all for letting me vent yesterday

I was unsettled by the R talk

But you guys picked me up

It was like I got punched hard in the gut

And I was not ready for it

Job calls this phase reconnection

I was letting down some of my walls

And she too has been letting down some of her walls

This is stirring up all sorts of feelings in both of us

No one said this would be a smooth ride

Journaling

So it was late and I went to bed

W wanted to know how I was feeling

And I stayed cool and calm and told her

I told her how much her words hurt me

And how I do not want to be in a sexless M either

And she said thank you for listening to me yesterday

And she asked me to hold her

And we laid down and fell asleep

Originally Posted by Gordie

And I stayed cool and calm and told her

I told her how much her words hurt me

And how I do not want to be in a sexless M either

And she said thank you for listening to me yesterday

And she asked me to hold her

And we laid down and fell asleep

And this is why we all cheer for #TeamGordie. You are an example of not only what love is but what love does. Big bro hug your way ((Gordie))

Just checking in on you Gordie. I feel your pain. Your feelings are all valid.

Originally Posted by Gordie

I prayed to God to help me

And yes I felt loved

Loved by God

And not alone

This, I think, is significant. God's love is steadfast, and our light in our darkest times. I turn to him often, and feel uplifted.

I admire how you are handling your journey.

Hugs.

You are on an awesome path Gordie.

So proud of you Gordie. I think you are too far along to fake it until you make it. I'm glad you spoke up and shared some of your feelings and that it lead to a positive place for both of you.

Hi Gordie,

I will try not to be blunt but I only have a few minutes. Bare that in mind if it comes across as uncaring. That isn't me.

Anyway that is a tough blow, but there are many different ways to consider this latest conversation:

# It is a reality check on those expectations, which apparently were a bit too high. I don't blame you on that, we are all guilty of it at times. But it does make negative turns harder.
# She looked for comfort and fell asleep in your arms. Actions versus words!!
# She wants more but she shuts the door on you.
# I like what job mentioned about looking at what she said and if you have been lacking, you have an area of focus. If there is no validity, let it slip. I honestly could be accused of not putting W first at the moment. I imagine that it could also be true in your case. Can you look into that. But don't panic and do everything to please her.

Sorry I will try to come back soon to elaborate.

Maybe it has nothing to do with it but today is Valentines Day. Many people in unhappy situations, look to this date and see that they are not where they'd like to be. That can be depressing. Ask any LBS here!! So that reminded her that she's not quiet there as regards to you. She could have initiated the R chat to ensure you didn't do anything elaborate for V Day, which could have worsened her feelings.

Regardless of what her reasons for initiating the conversation, only you can decide if it changes anything. To me it changes nothing. It just proves the road is still long ahead of you.

Remember that Foreveryoung's W told him at least three times she was done and wanted a D. She was triple done as he put it himself. Now they are working together with a counsellor to rebuid their M.

I know that it sux but it is the LBS that has to make the first few steps even if we feel it isn't up to us. I can understand you not wanting to give too much heart to a woman that isn't fully committed to you. Believe me I know how that feels. I don't believe that you need to give her MORE now. Maybe you should even back off a bit. Time and space are the keys to all reconciliations that have occurred on this site. Respect her wish or rather how she feels. Feelings change. you know that. That can give you hope.

In your shoes I would let her know that you respect her feelings and appreciate her being open with you. Don't try to change them. you can't. You can understand her frustrations though. You know how hard it is to live in a difficult R. You can empathise.

Now you need to work on your resentment and anger. Those will not help you nor your W feel better. Don't act on them.

Your W is unhappy that she isn't the centre of your world and that you are not doing enough for her. I truly believe that can be a good thing! She wants to be the center of your world and for you to do things for her. She has noticed you are independent of her and she doesn't like it. Your coach has advised that some of what you do will displease her. Maybe that is even essential.

Follow your path, and leave her decide her own path.

Many people in crisis oscilate between wanting back and wanting out. The strength and distance between those peaks usually diminishes and eventually they no longer osscilate. Stay steady, but be open to learn more.

I got to go.

Best wishes

Originally Posted by roist

Time and space are the keys to all reconciliations that have occurred on this site.

Hey Gordie I usually post to you once or twice a year. I am really sorry about your setback. I truly admire your strength along your journey you have really endured a lot and are always thoughtful enough to respond to everyone who posts on your thread.

I am wondering if you have considered a separation at all? I still really think she needs to feel what it would be like for you to not be apart of her everyday life.

Again I commend your strength and commitment!

Roist: Maybe it has nothing to do with it but today is Valentines Day. Many people in unhappy situations, look to this date and see that they are not where they'd like to be. That can be depressing. Ask any LBS here!! So that reminded her that she's not quiet there as regards to you. She could have initiated the R chat to ensure you didn't do anything elaborate for V Day, which could have worsened her feelings.

G: Thank you. No idea if it was V day related. I had not thought of that. We had a nice family dinner. I bought her a little present that was well received.

Roist: Regardless of what her reasons for initiating the conversation, only you can decide if it changes anything. To me it changes nothing. It just proves the road is still long ahead of you.

G: Agree this changes nothing and yes, still a long road ahead.

Roist: Remember that Foreveryoung's W told him at least three times she was done and wanted a D. She was triple done as he put it himself. Now they are working together with a counsellor to rebuid their M.

G: That is an awesome story. I did not know that. I am triple done! I do think about something my DB coach told me. When she is feeling closer to me, sometimes she pushes me away.

Roist: I know that it sux but it is the LBS that has to make the first few steps even if we feel it isn't up to us. I can understand you not wanting to give too much heart to a woman that isn't fully committed to you. Believe me I know how that feels. I don't believe that you need to give her MORE now. Maybe you should even back off a bit. Time and space are the keys to all reconciliations that have occurred on this site. Respect her wish or rather how she feels. Feelings change. you know that. That can give you hope.

G: I know you know. We absolutely need more time. I am struggling with the space. She says and acts in contradictory ways of wanting more and wanting less.

Roist: In your shoes I would let her know that you respect her feelings and appreciate her being open with you. Don't try to change them. you can't. You can understand her frustrations though. You know how hard it is to live in a difficult R. You can empathise.

G: I told her exactly that. Thank you for sharing your feelings.

Roist: Now you need to work on your resentment and anger. Those will not help you nor your W feel better. Don't act on them.

G: Yes, indeed. Still a work in progress.

Roist: Your W is unhappy that she isn't the centre of your world and that you are not doing enough for her. I truly believe that can be a good thing! She wants to be the center of your world and for you to do things for her. She has noticed you are independent of her and she doesn't like it. Your coach has advised that some of what you do will displease her. Maybe that is even essential. Follow your path, and leave her decide her own path.

G: Yes, she says she wants to be the center of my world and focus of my attention and I have been focused on me and the kids. If I put all my attention on her, it may scare her away. If I do not give her enough attention, it may just further frustrate her.

Roist: Many people in crisis oscilate between wanting back and wanting out. The strength and distance between those peaks usually diminishes and eventually they no longer osscilate. Stay steady, but be open to learn more.

G: I agree re oscillation. Since our R talk, she has been wanting me to spend more time with her and to talk to her more. She has also been touchier. One day at a time.

Journaling

So w asked to go on a date

We went for a casual meal just the two of us

She talked about making plans for our future together

Financial planning

Going on vacation with just the two of us this year

She wants us to celebrate our anniversary

After the meal we walked down the street

She held my hand as we walked

In bed she has been touching me more

Nothing overtly sexual

But more touching and asking me to hold her

Fabulous update. Maybe the recent trouble was testing to make sure you were safe, or she needed you to tell her you needed more. Who knows. You are obviously moving in the direction. It is probably still going to be bumpy, but you are a champ and everyone is pulling for you guys.

Good Morning Gordie

Great update.

There is back and forth within her, however each time she goes forth further and back less. Well, that�s what I see.

How are you doing? Have you uncoupled some of your feelings towards uncertainty? How is anger, compassion, and forgiveness - the feelings, thoughts, and beliefs towards that?

I can only imagine how this difficult journey must be for you. I do hope, and wish, that I can stand long enough to get a chance to endure my own trials and reconnection. You are doing so very well my friend.

DnJ

Oneart

Agree this is going to be bumpy

So if I think of this as a new relationship

And w as a girlfriend

I think she is at the part of the relationship

Where she wants more from me

And I have kept my distance

So let us inch more in that direction

DNJ

Agree there is back and forth within her

It is hard to see how things change when you are so close to them

My feelings are in check most of the time

But I still get triggered

But less than I used to

So yes God heals and time heals

There are unexpected difficulties in this part of the journey

But it is a necessary part of the journey

A part that we all dreamed and prayed about

And I keep posting

First because you guys are all so understanding

And second because people on the outside still do not understand

If they know what happened

They do not understand why we are still together

If they do not know what happened

They do not understand why things are not normal

Originally Posted by Gordie

Journaling

So w asked to go on a date

........

She talked about making plans for our future together

......

Going on vacation with just the two of us this year

She wants us to celebrate our anniversary

.......

She held my hand as we walked

In bed she has been touching me more

Nothing overtly sexual

But more touching and asking me to hold her

Wouldn't it be great to just forget those words she said and focus on the positives. Easier said than done, but to an outsider we are reading about two different Ws. Actions speak louder than words so this is all great. However we cannot forget and I am sure a part of you is bracing yourself for the next blow. Understandable but it may also unconsciously be blocking you from further progress.

So what to do. You have three choices:
1. Carry on as you have and wait and see how she turns out.
2. Say you have had enough and move out, giving her more time and space
3. Give her what she asks.

I vote for #3. You have nothing to lose by trying to be more there for her. Again this has to be measured and if too much she will either bolt or take you for granted. So keep up your independent GAL activities or even add to them. There are a short series of podcasts called happy wife happy life, that I think you would find interesting to listen to.

Another thing that could be helpful is to keep a W journal. I outlined this before on my thread, but part of it is to note anything she says she likes, wants, enjoys. Then you consult that anytime you want to do something for her and you are sure it will be something she likes. It is a simple idea but a little comment noted today could be a perfect gift in six months time. Plus she will feel listened to.

So take a leap of faith and try giving her what she is asking for. Watch her reaction and adjust as appropriate. However Michelle advises giving stuff time to work. So wait at least a few weeks before judging something as not working.

I am curious as to how she describes your future together.

I would finally add, that at the beginning or at the next time she criticises you for not being there for her, I would hit her with the truth dart about her not being fully in your R and that influences any possible R. No need to spell it out more.

Got to go

Best wishes

Roist,

Thank you. You touch on a lot of points so let me try to address them:

1. This week, the bedtime cuddling has become more intimate and sexual; we are both being cautious.

2. Yes, I need to remember: Actions > Words.

3. I vote for #3 too, the leap of faith and giving her more attention.

4. I listened to that podcast and it reminded me of the more thoughtful things I used to do for her in our early days.

5. She described a future where we travel the world together with worries or problems.

6. I said something along those lines in our last talk and think she actually heard me.

Wonderful Gordie!

These are wonderful developments! I'm happy for you.

Originally Posted by Gordie

5. She described a future where we travel the world together with worries or problems.

That sounds dreamy. Likewise about the #1 on your list but I feel like a voyeur commenting on it! I was thinking about how your W might see #1 and #5 and how nice that must be for her, to feel like she was dating you.

Also thank you for what you wrote on my thread about Lent. You are such a good friend.

One Grace Gerda

Thank you for checking on me; typo above

5. She described a future where we travel the world together WITHOUT worry or problems

Re #1, I am trying to keep it real

And reconnecting in this regard has its ups and downs

The road to a new relationship is long and hard

I read the Jack three beans thread bumped by Babe

Why the MLCer is so distant

I found AmyC�s comments insightful:

1. Admitting she was wrong was the hardest step

2. And that the LBS has to let go of all pride in order to make #1 possible

That hit me like a 2x4

I'm glad I helped;
I should say I'm so grateful for Amy's post and all those great people who ever shared their most precious experience and skills with us (big heart)

Journaling

Some thoughts about sexual reconnection

Because so many of us face MLC + infidelity in our situations

I think sexual reconnection is harder

MWD writes about this in healing from infidelity

I think for MLCers

Everything is slower and takes more time

This is why we keep expectations at zero

Another tricky thing is male-female sexual initiation

W has almost never initiated sex in our M

We had an active, healthy sex life

But I always initiated

Thus when she said I am not ready in January 2018

I left it alone and waited

I assumed she would indicate when she was ready

So somewhere in these past few months she was ready

I felt her warming up

But she never told me I am ready for sex again

Shebwas waiting for me to initiate

And I did no such thing

And then she finally did initiate in December 2018

And it was awkward for me

I think I was not ready

And after she pulled back from me

And then she got angry

For my lack enthusiasm and pursuit

So I changed things up

And started initiating sex again this past week

And she has been very receptive

It has been good for her

It has been good for me

We stopped having sex regularly in 2015 about one year before BD

When she started her fantasy affair with OM1

So it has been four years since we have been this intimate

Your patience in astounding Gordie. I'm reading along and very proud of how you've handled this situation, with all it's twists, turns and nuances. You are a good man and she's a lucky woman to have you still standing. Many blessings and keep doing what you're doing.
xoxoxoxo

I would see if you can get her to talk during sex or after. I think if she can do that, then you can make it clear to her that you would like her to initiate when she is interested and that she doesn't have to respond to your initiation if she is not. If she is tentative or wary, maybe she could give you a sign that she is interested and would like you to initiate. Maybe that lets her feel pursued and gives you the confidence you are pursuing at the right time. Trial and error. Just like everything else.

You are the best Gordie, you really are!

Originally Posted by OneArt

I would see if you can get her to talk during sex or after. I think if she can do that, then you can make it clear to her that you would like her to initiate when she is interested and that she doesn't have to respond to your initiation if she is not. If she is tentative or wary, maybe she could give you a sign that she is interested and would like you to initiate. Maybe that lets her feel pursued and gives you the confidence you are pursuing at the right time. Trial and error. Just like everything else.

I like OneArts suggestion about talking after sex (especially if it was a positive experience for both of you. In the real world we know that's not always true for every person every time...so be aware of this).

My only addition would be to watch her response to discussing sex at this time. For a lot of people this is the perfect time to talk about sex - you're bothe vulnerable but content. But I know for me in my past this is also when I felt the most "judged". Feeling very raw but then a discussion about how to improve...can be tricky. So I'd say just monitor very closely and maybe pick another time. For me I'd rather discuss sex when out and about having fun (at a concert or a bar) and when I felt really connected to my partner - and when I felt very confident. So just be sure you do what works.

The suggestion about a subtle signal is great. Code words are fun. "Hey hun, know what I'm in the mood for? Strawberry pie! Haven't had that in forever....".

Well done Gordie. You really are showing exemplary patience and kindness.

I do believe the MLCer has to grow up; that is the crux of this process. The LBS learns and grows first and then demonstrates. Continue to show her the lessons - kindness, patience, compassion, happiness, love, joy, trust, faith, intimacy, and forgiveness. That is the beam that shines from the lighthouse, that is what shines from you.

To me she is at a point where she is watching your lead, she wants to follow. Getting closer together is going to bring more to the surface and she will be looking for a trusting partner. Be compassionate and forgiving. She needs that, and so do you.

Remain slow, steady, and cautious. She is responding and greatly it sounds like.

Trust and forgiveness my friend. Tall orders indeed, I get it. However, it has to start somewhere and sometime. Why not now? It is just a start, and this is going to take some time. Be fearless and lower your walls some more. Risk your heart, it is so worth it.

Keep with the exemplary patience and kindness.

DnJ

I would just make one observation about a possible sex chat you are planning. Don't come across as being a lost boy looking for her to dictate/decide everything. I know this is not where you are coming from but IMO if you come across as too unsure, that is unattractive. Women don't like having to decide everything and like their man to be decisive and self-confident. Whereas I believe it is fundamental to be interested and respectful of what she wants, be careful not to come across as sheepish.

Maybe just let her know that in the future when you initiate, there is no pressure or obligation for her to respond favourably. Only you can read the situation, but I fear it could still be a little soon to fully outline your wants. Again depending on how your conversation goes, I propbably would wait a little before letting her know you would like her to initiate. However if she does so in the meantime, be sure to acknowledge it positively

Got to go

best wishes

I think it would be insane to talk about sex with her already.

You have waited two years for this. I think you can wait more than two months.

I would just keep being Gordie. Listen, respond. Keep surrendering your will to God.

This might sound crazy to other folks on these parts, but take a moment before you go to bed in the evening and ask God to help you live in His will.

I think you are focusing too much on strategizing and your needs. Just listen to her in bed, physically and emotionally, as you have learned to listen to her outside of that. In time she will listen to you too.

Gerda,

Very wise/sage advice. Gordie, please read and re-read what Gerda has posted.

Gerda Roist OneArt Butterfly Neffer DNJ Yail

Gerda, no big sex talks planned but I welcome all the advice and will utilize it when the time is right.

Roist, we actually had some recent non sex related discussion about the confidence topic and how w wants me to be LESS cautious or as you say sheepish, more directed and more open.

Roist and one art, I think the suggestion to say it is okay to sometimes reject my advances is a good one; feeling like sex is obligatory is one part of the old marriage that we both want to leave behind.

I love OneArt�s advice about having a secret word or phrase that means �I am in the mood� is an awesome and playful one that I would love to introduce.

DNJ I think you also are right that she is also following my lead in certain things but I am also taking her lead in other things, where we are both trying to figure out the new dynamics of where we are and where we want to go and how we are going to get there.

Gerda, I agree with your caution about this is not the time for strategizing.

***

I have been thinking a lot about what Job wrote and the links she sent me about the reconnection phase.

I knew this phase would require being present for the other person, listening and being open.

The part I did not see is the one about humbling yourself.

Gordie,

Reconnection takes the patience of JOB. To me, this is the most difficult stage because we see improvements, we see them reconnecting and we want to them be back in the here and now at this very moment. Patience, listening and affirming them is very important right now. We want to talk to them about what happened and how we feel and where we need to go from here, but that talk will come much later.

She is still very fragile and she feels safe w/you, but not safe enough yet to hear everything. Continue to drop those crumbs of love and friendship and she'll follow.

Originally Posted by Gordie

The part I did not see is the one about humbling yourself.

That's the hardest part.

When I do that hardest thing, the other things become easy.

I rarely can do it.

You may feel you don't do it well, but from my vantage point, you are a black belt in humility.

Goodbye til Easter, my friend!!!!

Remember that you are dust

But your life is not a bust

In this valley of tears

And too many fears

Fast and pray

Cry and sway

Kiss the tree

Drink of me

Well, our budding poet. How about trying your hand at a villanelle? This one came to mind (although yours could be cheerier these days).

The House on the Hill

BY EDWIN ARLINGTON ROBINSON

They are all gone away,
The House is shut and still,
There is nothing more to say.

Through broken walls and gray
The winds blow bleak and shrill:
They are all gone away.

Nor is there one to-day
To speak them good or ill:
There is nothing more to say.

Why is it then we stray
Around the sunken sill?
They are all gone away,

And our poor fancy-play
For them is wasted skill:
There is nothing more to say.

There is ruin and decay
In the House on the Hill:
They are all gone away,
There is nothing more to say.

One Art
BY ELIZABETH BISHOP
The art of losing isn�t hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn�t hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

I lost my mother�s watch. And look! my last, or
next-to-last, of three loved houses went.
The art of losing isn�t hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn�t a disaster.

�Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan�t have lied. It�s evident
the art of losing�s not too hard to master
though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster.

One Art�look what I found! It�s like a Rosetta Stone for your posts. Love it!

Journaling

Reconnection

More time together

More communication

More non sexual contact

More sexual contact

Conflict

There are some persistent areas of conflict

Where we are not on the same page

I accept that we are not on the same page

She wants me to change

Criticism

Sometimes it is warranted

Sometimes it is not

Mole hills quickly become mountains

I do my best to de escalate

Sorrow

Persistent sadness about her life

Dreams that have died

What could have beens

Envy towards others

Loneliness

She burned bridges with old friends

And she is no longer hanging with the new friends

One close friend moved away

One MLC friend remains

GAL

I am healthy

Kids are slowly getting better

Work is good

I am enjoying my life

Yes Gordie, my favorite poem by my favorite poet. This was my favorite from the time I met my husband (19/20). It is almost like an omen. It should have been a warning to me of what would come. If you like Bishop, read Invitation to Miss Marianne Moore (another poet and her hero). The word play in that poem is absolutely striking and awe-inspiring.

And here is one for you dear Gordie and the role you have mastered so well (The Lighthouse by Longfellow):

The rocky ledge runs far into the sea,
And on its outer point, some miles away,
The Lighthouse lifts its massive masonry,
A pillar of fire by night, of cloud by day.

Even at this distance I can see the tides,
Upheaving, break unheard along its base,
A speechless wrath, that rises and subsides
In the white lip and tremor of the face.

And as the evening darkens, lo! how bright,
Through the deep purple of the twilight air,
Beams forth the sudden radiance of its light
With strange, unearthly splendor in the glare!

Not one alone; from each projecting cape
And perilous reef along the ocean's verge,
Starts into life a dim, gigantic shape,
Holding its lantern o'er the restless surge.

Like the great giant Christopher it stands
Upon the brink of the tempestuous wave,
Wading far out among the rocks and sands,
The night-o'ertaken mariner to save.

And the great ships sail outward and return,
Bending and bowing o'er the billowy swells,
And ever joyful, as they see it burn,
They wave their silent welcomes and farewells.

They come forth from the darkness, and their sails
Gleam for a moment only in the blaze,
And eager faces, as the light unveils,
Gaze at the tower, and vanish while they gaze.

The mariner remembers when a child,
On his first voyage, he saw it fade and sink;
And when, returning from adventures wild,
He saw it rise again o'er ocean's brink.

Steadfast, serene, immovable, the same
Year after year, through all the silent night
Burns on forevermore that quenchless flame,
Shines on that inextinguishable light!

It sees the ocean to its bosom clasp
The rocks and sea-sand with the kiss of peace;
It sees the wild winds lift it in their grasp,
And hold it up, and shake it like a fleece.

The startled waves leap over it; the storm
Smites it with all the scourges of the rain,
And steadily against its solid form
Press the great shoulders of the hurricane.

The sea-bird wheeling round it, with the din
Of wings and winds and solitary cries,
Blinded and maddened by the light within,
Dashes himself against the glare, and dies.

A new Prometheus, chained upon the rock,
Still grasping in his hand the fire of Jove,
It does not hear the cry, nor heed the shock,
But hails the mariner with words of love.

"Sail on!" it says, "sail on, ye stately ships!
And with your floating bridge the ocean span;
Be mine to guard this light from all eclipse,
Be yours to bring man nearer unto man!"

Gordie, It is helpful to be able to step back and see clearly our own situation. Many cannot achieve that because so much clouds their vision. So good on you.

When BD hits us the LBS knee jerks reaction is to save their great M that thy took for granted. The WAs becomes idolised and something we want more than anything else. She/he is THE one. We then expand our understanding about where we went wrong, the responsibility of both in that. We see all the faults and cracks that were there unseen for years and get a glimpse to what a prefect M would look like. That is what we strive for.

But just like no spouse is perfect, no M is either. I look around at some married couples and think that I am lucky to not have some stuff that they do going on in my M. Imagine that! I am not talking big stuff like cheating or alcoholisme etc, but how they speak to each other or treat each other. Now that my eyes are opened I see a lot more than before and it is shocking the amount of unhealthy interactions we observe if we pay attention.

Why do I say this to you? Because not being perfect is normal for a M. With one spouse not fully committed, evenmoreso. Don't look for perfection. Aim for the best you can and for the moment concentrate on those justified criticisms. Are they correctable and if your M was perfect, would you make the effort to correct them?

Most unjustified criticisms should be let flow off, but not all. A balance needs to be found. Some can be easily ignored as you see they come from her being in a bad place. But don't become an easy target that accepts all hits.

Best wishes

Wow! Love that, Roist! That was good for me to hear (read), too!

Hi Gordie! Still here rooting for you!!

Roist and Sjohn6

Thanks for stopping by

Loved the reminder that no m is perfect

Mine never was

And it never will be

And that is okay

We are all imperfect

And that is okay

Journaling

So one thing that is causing some tension

Is that w says I have been walking on egg shells

Imagine that

That is a fair criticism

But I think I still have a lot of anxiety

I know the answer is relaxing

Being confident

Staying in the moment

But at times I get anxious

When she gets angry or depressed or critical or hides

Is another BD coming

What if this fragile thing

Falls apart again

What is the worst that can happen if she does BD you again? What is the worst that will happen if you state your mind and she doesn't like it? Picture the worst and then turn it around to realise that even that isn't so bad.

A year ago you had an appartement lined up and were ready to move out and live without her antics. I am sure a part of that was to end your pain, but surely another part of you saw a good life ahead without W. Something that helped me at similar times, was to imagine my life without W. Honestly it is full of so many possibilities and opportunities. It may not be your first choice but it can be great. Knowing that, can help remove your fear.

2x4 over. It is understandable that you have anxiety and it is even probably due to DB that you are in this situation!!! DB encourages the LBS to hold back, so as to not overload the WAS. And to an extent that still applies to you as W is not fully committed to the M. BUT, recently you decided to take a leap of faith and try a little more to give her what she asked, knowing she isn't fully baked. This is part of that.

In your shoes I would dedicate a bit of my time to looking up communication skills and advice about being more open with your feelings. I am sure that you have read many times that this topic is one of the reasons M's fail in the first place. It is vital in a healthy M. You need to loosen the restrictions of DB to try be more open, confident and yes manly.

I am sure that part of your problem is ingrained in you and isn't due to DB principals, but I am also sure that you can do this. At first it will be uneasy but with practice and time if will become second nature.

So work on the source of your anxiety. understand it and overcome it. Simple words but a big task.

Best wishes

Gordie, I love you dearly and think you give great help to others, but maybe it would be good to stop reading other threads for a while. There is always so much heartache and a reminder of where you have been, maybe that makes you more fearful or tentative and less able to be in the moment. Just a suggestion.

I have to give an amen to roist and OneArt for the comments above. Both really spoke to me. The communication and walking on eggshells issue for me had a lot to do with DB tactics. I used to be an open book for communications. W was the one that didn't really share much on an emotional level. I've realized recently that communications with W will probably be difficult for me to reestablish (if it ever comes to that) because I've gotten so used to not sharing with her for the purposes of not overloading her. It isn't that I would need a class on communications or anything, just that I've grown so used to holding back with her now. I am willing to bet that you (Gordie) are in a similar boat.

And I had to slow down on reading everyone's threads. As I started to regain my confidence and my head started to clear from all the LBS madness, I realized that reading all the threads and seeing all the hurt and torment that my LBS friends were going through was starting to hold me back a little. It is a constant reminder of the torment that I have gone through. And that isn't to say that I'm all the way better, just that I've been on the forums long enough now to pretty much know how to handle the ups and downs I go through without needing to be told. I just ask myself, what would Gordie, DnJ, Gerda, Job, and about half a dozen others say to me in this situation? So, I come here sporadically to keep up with my friends and gain insight where I can from reading about my friends. Like right now.

(((Gordie)))

So how are things in Gordieland?

Best wishes

Hi Gordie - just caught up. Depression colors a person�s world with a giant gray paintbrush.

Every mature/stable person knows marriage is work. Right now you don�t have a person whose thinking if clear enough to recognize that.

There is only so much you can do when it�s one hand clapping. Praise the good actions you see and live life with as big a spoon as you can.

Gordie hope you are well. xoxoxo

According to his profile he hasn't logged on since early in the month #TeamGordie

yes I noticed that as well

#TeamGordiexoxoxo

Thanks for checking in on me, so a quick update

Big picture, overall situation is the same

We had a successful family vacation

We are talking more and call and text during the day

Day to day is better and there is less egg shell walking on my part

In hindsight we were not ready for sex

It was awkward for both of us so we have backed off

But we are still in the same bed

And touch each other every day

I think I was too focused on W and marriage back in Feb and March

It was driving me nuts and not making things better

Two things have made things better

1 Focus on GAL separate from W which makes me happier

2 Live in the present as I spin thinking about the past and the future

Lent and Easter brought many thoughts about the need to fully forgive W

hi there Gordie. Thx for the update - good to know how you are. Full forgiveness is necessary for our own peace of mind. I think I've completely forgiven exh, then something will come up that hits a raw nerve and I think, "Well, where did that come from?" I'm personally grateful for those awarenesses, as it lets me know what I need to work on

I'm glad your family vacation was a success. Those calls and texts during the day are a wonderful low pressure way to build intimacy.

Sex/Lovemaking will most likely be less awkward as intimacy continues to build... this is an assumption on my part, not personal experience but it makes sense, doesn't it?

GAL does two things: keeps you sane/focused on yourself and also makes you more desirable as a mate/less likely to be underfoot and taken for granted.

I dunno why I'm thinking this Gordie, but it just popped into my head: do you feel like you need to forgive yourself ? I ask because I feel like I have to forgive myself for my part in the demise of my marriage. Perhaps when I fully forgive myself I will be more able to fully forgive my exh. What are your thoughts on this?

#TeamGordie xoxoxo

Butterfly

Thank you

We are on the same wavelength

I thought I had fully forgiven w

But some things came up and I realized I have not

I talked to a wise friend IRL who reminded me forgiveness is a process and takes time

And yes you are totally right

I have to forgive myself too

Thank you for the gentle nudge

That too is a process that takes time, right?

yes and time is a four letter word

i don't think it's possible to forgive W and be done with the forgiveness thing.

I think you will have to start over everyday.

I have a friend whose H came back after two years. She is a serious Christian. Her story of faithful standing was almost miraculous, and her H even came to Christ when he came back, and they have given talks at marriage restoration conferences.

But even with such a sure strong restoration, she often tells me how hard it is when those thought darts come flying.

She told me she is able to see it as something she is powerless over, something that only God can fix, and that it will take years. She just lays it at God's feet every time, asks Him to take the burden from her every time. I think for her it is daily.

Gerda

Thank you for that wonderful and encouraging story

Maybe that is why it is the Lord�s Prayer

As a daily reminder

I will now think of that

Thank you

By the way I was in a random store

And I heard that song you recommended

It brought a smile to my face

New Thread:

Gordie 24 still married