Some of you may have figured out that I am a poetry geek. My screen name is the title to one of my favorite poems and my first thread title was the first line of that poem. Here is a link to that:
The art of losing isn't hard to masterI am moving on to another favorite poet, this one a man, A.E. Housman. This is a poem that says a lot about how I feel about my H.
Shake hands, we shall never be friends, all’s over;
I only vex you the more I try.
All’s wrong that ever I’ve done or said,
And nought to help it in this dull head:
Shake hands, here’s luck, good-bye.
But if you come to a road where danger
Or guilt or anguish or shame’s to share,
Be good to the lad that loves you true
And the soul that was born to die for you,
And whistle and I'll be there.
After a very long time (years of an in-house wallower followed by an ejection and now two years out of the home), the requisite MLC beard, lots of addictions from a former teatotaler, at least three affairs, child abandonment, and transition from boomerang to vanisher, I think I have finally arrived.
I do love him. I usually don't admit that. But I do. I married him for life even if he didn't do the same. I want him to be happy. That is new for me. I want him to work his way through his stuff. But for him and for my kids, and not for me. I don't think he will find happiness with the present OW but if he does, I am ok with that.
I don't want to be his friend. I was his friend for more than 25 years. That he did take away. I would like to be friendly with him, for the sake of my kids, but I don't think he is ready for that. I have no expectations of him. Not in a good way or a bad. I have finally quelled the mind movies. Now, when they come, I politely ask them to leave. I understand why he feels the need to hurt me from time to time and I no longer take it personally. I know that I haven't done anything to warrant it, so I know it is part of his stuff.
I want the divorce to be over, mainly because I don't like uncertainty and for things to hang. I don't like the distraction or the expense. I don't like being stopped from taking the actions I need to take. I see a future for myself that is light and airy and not tied to pain and grief and not shackled by the chains of commitments from which I've been released--even if involuntarily.
But I also know that I will be there for him. If he's ever brave enough to ask for my help. I will help him.
Hi OneArt,
Yes, I can see how far you've progressed in the LBS journey. Well done. Lots of hard work, tears and heartbreak went into this post ^^^^ we know how much you've been through. I'm proud of you. And I relate to everything you said. xoxoxo
OneArt, this post is incredible. You said everything I feel. I got another official divorce complaint today and have to meet him in court for the first time on Tuesday, pro se against his evil lawyer who was paid for by my kids' godfather. I've asked him to leave and he won't leave. In the complaint in addition to alimony, 100% custody, child support, all his legal bills and half of all assets, he even asked me to give up our name, which I have had for 20 years. I want to call under a rock and yet I want the new life you talk about so much and for this to be over if he is really going to do it.
And yet I feel all the things you feel.
Gerda -
You HAVE to get a lawyer. I don't care how, but you must do it. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
As for his demands - they're ridiculous by any standards. But you need an attorney to fight them. Put the fees on a credit card, borrow from family, sell something - I don't care how you do it, but don't try to do this on your own or it will cost you an enormous amount going forward.
OneArt - I feel what you're saying. I don't miss or want my ex at all and avoid communicating with him as much as possible. But I still feel the obligation of my vows enough that I would help him if he was in dire need.
I remember a mom at my kids' grade school. She was divorced but her ex-husband got cancer and she cared for him in her home in his last days. I didn't know her well enough to know the whole story, but got the feeling she did it for her kids, not because of some reconciliation. I don't know how their divorce came about either. But I'd like to think I would do that for my kids' sake if it ever came to that. (And yes, I know darn well my ex would nEVER do anything of the sort for me.)
Please Gerda, listen to kml. I think you have too many questions to be trying to do this yourself. You think you don't have the money to do it, but what are the alternatives. How much are you willing to risk in custody, or visitation or the division of equity. Keep calling and talking to as many lawyers as you can until you find one that can help you out.
OneArt
A well said piece. Full of compassion and understanding towards someone who has hurt you so deeply. That is a great step to take and a great life to live.
I love your view of your future.
I am happy for you - you little poetry geek.
DnJ
I dunno why we are talking about my case on your thread! But I am not at all worried about being pro se. I am just worried about how gross I have to be to battle him. I have been pro se for almost two years on a different case and have done very well. I will certainly be able to hold my own and rack up his lawyer bills for a while, probably until his friend gets tired of paying for another man's divorce, especially as this friend is also giving him money for living expenses, and, if I succeed with my first motion, will have to offer him a place to stay. At some point I will tell that man's wife what he is paying for and that should be the end of his having a lawyer.
I have a lot o legal advice from lawyer friends and two friends who went through this, plus sometimes I get some legal advice from a free service I found here, they just won't actually represent me.
If we go to trial, I will get a lawyer then.
But thanks to all for the concern. It would be great if we can stop talking about that, as I know everyone thinks I am insane and wants me to get a lawyer already. Would rather just hear tips and advice and experiential wisdom.
Well, not sure whether to put this in the stalking basket or what.
Shortly after I helped him vacate from the home, I got new insurance cards in the mail for me and the kids. Making clear that he had informed someone he was living elsewhere. I logged into the insurance online and made an account. I remember the password and login. I've been getting new cards and EOBs at our home address. All of a sudden this am, I realized I have not received any EOBs since the spring (after a bad injury my son had). The kids and I have been to the doctor several times since then, had prescriptions filled, etc. I went to login in to the insurance online and my login doesn't work. I tried to do a password reset (I've had the same email for a long time). The system doesn't recognize my email. To set up an account I have to request a PIN by mail, which will clearly go to him. Evidently he's gone in and changed our health info over to him so he can see what doctors we are going to and getting prescribed. Getting really sick of his crap.
Hi OneArt
An other bump in the road, most likely caused by H.
Did he know your password, or maybe figured it out? Having your email not even recongized sure sounds like a deletion of your account.
Don’t worry I know you will figure out a way to get around this obstacle - you’re pretty smart that way.
“Getting really sick of his crap.” (((OneArt))) Let it roll off you. Just shake you head. That stalking basket is pretty darn full though.
I guess things have been quiet for too long, he just had to reach out and meddle.
My guess is that he did it through the personnel at his work. I think it is the typical case, I’m not reacting to anything as I always have and he is feeling that I’ve dropped the rope and trying to hold onto the illusion of control. The mushy text from last night was differently worded and arguably included me. I am not letting any of it get to me. Had a lovely drive in the country today with my S.
Hi OneArt
It’s good to read your post to see the progress that you’ve made.
What techniques have you used to get to this stage of acceptance?
It’s 2 yrs since he left. My H & his AP have now moved away & I feel such anger (particularly towards her - having the life, love & future that I wanted from him). The divorce is going through & part of me wants to cling on to the familiar & part of me wants it all over because I want an end to this pain.
My H says he wants to remain friends - I don’t know if that’s true or because he is trying to be nice whilst we go through mediation. But it can’t be an open, honest friendship because I don’t want to hear about their new life. He is always very economical with the truth (maybe so as not to hurt me any more than he already has). I’d love to say that I could be pleased for him & his new happiness but I’m not that good a person.
Like you, I can’t see their 23 yr age gap relationship working long term but it seems to be working well for now. Either way, I don’t imagine he would ever come back.
How have you got to the stage where you don’t take it all personally?
Hi Ruby, I'm so very sorry for what you are going through. I just read through your posts. I see a lot of similarities there, but some differences too.
We do have kids, so unfortunately there is some connection there that will always be there. Always some chance that I will see or hear things I don't want to. Both of my H's PAs have been with women who were 6 years younger than him, so not so offensive. Although 23 years is a huge age difference. Hard to believe they have things in common, that she will want to care for an old man when in a vibrant part of her life, and there could be much meeting of the minds with generational gaps there.
What I am going to say is true of my situation, because that is really the only one I can speak to on these issues. I don't mean to judge anyone and these are very touchy subjects fraught with pain and stress.
I have never, ever blamed the other women. They did not make any promises to me or my children. Even if they threw themselves at him (which I doubt) he is the one who made the commitments and should have steered clear. The first PA was clearly a borderline. They had an underground affair for 3 years. Then I found out about it and they went back and forth for 10 months. He kept promising it was done, and then kept going back. Then I kicked him out. I heard from her later that she lost interest in him 3 weeks later. He circled in toward home for a few months then took up with the second PA. She has three kids, is quite impoverished, is religious, a drinker, has a big family and a big dog. He always been an atheist, was completely opposed to drinking (but now has become a drinker at age 48), hates family and doing things with family, and hates pets. When you see how absurd these relationships are in terms of fit you can truly appreciate that they just took up with the first person pathetic enough to get involved with them.
He was very unkind to me for the last 12 months he was in the home and the first 12 he was out. Since then he refuses to see me or talk to me, but constantly pokes at me and tries to get my attention by doing things (sometimes kind, but usually unkind). I think this too has made it easier to be indifferent to him.
At the end of the day Ruby, I choose me. I choose my happiness, my children's happiness, and my future. I think it is kml who always says to let go or be dragged and that is so true. There just comes a time where your shift in focus goes from what you have lost to what you are losing by not letting go.
I know my H is miserable. I saw the phone records early on when he and the first PA were hanging up on each other and calling each other back thirty times in a row like crazy people. When she called me she told me he talked about killing himself and what was the point of going on. He behaved like the same zombie he did at home. He has been on online dating sites the whole time he has been with the second PA. If life was that wonderful, why would he do that? I more or less goaded him into filing for divorce, but he still can't see it through. He doesn't seem to be able to let go.
I think in our case he is afraid of me. I know the legal system and I've already done things that have put some fear into him in the case. I also know things about him that will be very detrimental to his professional life.
Ruby, the person he is now is an absolute mess. I deserve so much more than that. Sometimes I would think about what it would be like if he came back (he did once for a week and was awful to us). I do not want to live like that anymore and my children don't either.
I was able to take my glasses off early on and see him and our relationship for what it was at the end (not at the beginning, that was long ago and he is a different person now). I am no one's second choice. I am a once in a lifetime kind of woman and I deserve to be with someone who gets that. If he isn't out there, then I choose me. Just as I am for now and eternity.
In my view you can't be friends with someone who lies to you, abandons you, breaks their promises, breaches your trust and leaves you without much thought. They want to feel like a good guy, but they aren't. When they can come and go and come and play nice, they don't have to feel like a bad guy or feel the consequences of their choices. I am polite but informative with mine. He gets nothing more than that.
We all take the time we take to let go. But I do think Michelle and her theory are correct. Until we really let go and they feel that (and boy will they test you again and again to see if you really have let go), they are not worried about losing you. I read somewhere that the better the marriage, the kinder the wife, the safer they feel in living that other life. Mine now knows that I am gone. He knows the kids are gone. He has moved in with OW2 and her kids and is living the big life in a crappy, small house, in a crappy, small town. He is welcome to that life.
What do I think the recipe is? Time and valuing yourself. Stop being there for him. Don't let him see you sitting there on the shelf. Let him go off to his dream life abroad with his crack with a pulse and wonder what you are doing and how your life is going and who is there with you. Another of my favorite poems by AE Housman ("Is My Team Ploughing"):
“Is my team ploughing,
That I was used to drive
And hear the harness jingle
When I was man alive?”
Ay, the horses trample,
The harness jingles now;
No change though you lie under
The land you used to plough.
“Is football playing
Along the river shore,
With lads to chase the leather,
Now I stand up no more?”
Ay the ball is flying,
The lads play heart and soul;
The goal stands up, the keeper
Stands up to keep the goal.
“Is my girl happy,
That I thought hard to leave,
And has she tired of weeping
As she lies down at eve?”
Ay, she lies down lightly,
She lies not down to weep:
Your girl is well contented.
Be still, my lad, and sleep.
“Is my friend hearty,
Now I am thin and pine,
And has he found to sleep in
A better bed than mine?”
Yes, lad, I lie easy,
I lie as lads would choose;
I cheer a dead man’s sweetheart,
Never ask me whose.
Choose you, dear Ruby. Choose you. He made his choice. Now let him live it. You do you.
Thank you OneArt, your post makes a lot of sense & I’m so grateful that you took the time to reply. I really admire your resolve & strength. I will try not to blame the OW in future, as hard as it is - that may have to be a “work in progress”!
You are right, I need to value me & live my life. I’ll try to remember your words & the poem next time I’m having a bad day.
Thank you for words of wisdom..
I wish you all the best.
Ruby
I do love him. I usually don't admit that. But I do. I married him for life even if he didn't do the same. I want him to be happy. That is new for me. I want him to work his way through his stuff. But for him and for my kids, and not for me. I don't think he will find happiness with the present OW but if he does, I am ok with that.
I feel exactly the same. My commitment was for life when we married, and I meant it. H has been unfaithful for so many years, both physically and emotionally, I question sometimes why I hang on. Hopes that he will have an epiphany and change his ways? The day he left 3 weeks ago, I hugged him and said "I hope you find what you're looking for". I meant it. Whether that be with or without me, only the future has that answer. One thing I realized, is that people who can't stand themselves fill the void with quick feel good things (in the case of H, other women, porn, and internet philandering), but these are all things that causes them to feel even worse about themselves, and the cycle continues.
As our MC said, you can't divorce yourself.
I don't want to be his friend. I was his friend for more than 25 years. That he did take away. I would like to be friendly with him, for the sake of my kids, but I don't think he is ready for that. I have no expectations of him. Not in a good way or a bad. I have finally quelled the mind movies. Now, when they come, I politely ask them to leave. I understand why he feels the need to hurt me from time to time and I no longer take it personally. I know that I haven't done anything to warrant it, so I know it is part of his stuff.
H told me several months before I asked him to move out that he hopes no matter what happens, he sees no reason we can't remain friends that he really cares for me and wants to take are of me. Uh, NO. Emotional abandonment, PA, and EA are not taking care of me. I will remain friendly, and when we are together with the kids for holidays, etc, upbeat, but he's not capable of being anyone's friend I don't think right now, let alone me. He has nothing to give. He's too damaged.
But I also know that I will be there for him. If he's ever brave enough to ask for my help. I will help him.
Word.
Grace, I think they do mean in the moment that they want to be friends. Then they go deeper and deeper into the tunnel. The clingers too start to vanish. Everything goes dark. They want no one. If we are not careful and disconnect before then, we go into a tunnel too.
Everything takes time. All of it. I refer to the Stockdale Paradox every once in a while to remind myself that this will come to an end, I don't know when it will end, but I can make the most of my life in the meantime.
time is a good thing
MLC probably gives us enough time to heal and shift and decide which new direction to take
and it takes most of us a few years to make some new turns
I think the time is never wasted no matter how long it all takes
we keep growing learning and changing
becoming better parents better more independent people
better self esteem
and whatever direction we take--it is right and we get ready tp move forward and then more
and I agree with you will get out of this phase exactly at the right timing
Ok, so I guess the escalation is going to continue. Canceling my memberships with no notice, parking outside my house, misdirecting my EOBs, etc. and today the kicker.
I have been experiencing some issues with my mail. I had an intervening event with a relative using my address and putting in a forwarding order and blamed that. Today I go to the PO to inquire after a piece of mail I should have received. The woman comes back with that and a huge armload of mail. She says you weren't getting your mail because you put in a hold order. She said there is a note in the back. I said I never put in a hold order and ask to see the note. Seems someone called into the PO and told them to hold my mail. Said person has come in once to pick up mail and had to show a DL.
I am angry, but letting it go. I realize that he is trying very hard to get me to explode at him and I simply refuse to do it. I had already rented a PO box. I guess I will move my mail earlier than I intended.
I really do think that they reach a point where they need to be reminded that we are horrible people to keep doing what they are doing, and when they can't they try to force those interactions. When that fails and we remain calm, serene, etc. then I think they have to look for other reasons that are behind their actions.
That is crazy
Do You know for sure it is him..
Did the PO have his name?
OneArt,
You've hit the nail on the head! Yes, they very much need to hate us and if we don't react/respond to their nonsense, then they have to find other ways to ramp it up so that we will react.
I am so sorry about your mail situation. I had some issues w/my mail as well. I can understand your frustration, but do change your address to the PO Box as quickly as you can.
Peace, I'm positive it is him. There is no one else it could be. He wants a reaction and won't get it.
Job, I have been expecting a ramping up. I'm hoping it is the last gasp before moving forward, but only time will tell.
Another stalking incident today at S's activity. I think he must not have realized that S's group gets out at a different time now. Repeat calls (very unusual for him). No messages left, as usual.
Were I inclined to look out the window from the house (which I'm not) I'm sure he is out there somewhere, sitting or driving by.
The good thing is that these periods of increased activity usually don't last that long (but then again the ones I have been discovering were done a while ago and I just didn't notice). The problem is that the time in between them is growing considerably shorter.
Sometimes it’s so difficult to work out if they really do want friendship or they’re just scared to let go of the comfort blanket.
We are just starting mediation & for me it makes sense that we get on as I think he will be fairer than if we fight. He would be a tough adversary if I went up against him.
The loss of friendship has been the toughest part of this for me. Whilst our marriage wasn’t perfect I thought he valued the friendship. Even now he says I’m his soulmate & best friend but we all know that you would never inflict this pain on a friend or walk away from a soulmate.
Are the lies, that he seems to tell with such ease, to protect me or himself? He is not the man that I have believed in for all these years. How can a friendship work without honesty?
OneArt - the game playing on his part with the post etc. is crazy. Your coolness is the best revenge - good on you.
OneArt - do you have a security system / panic button? Hoping that it wouldn't come to that but the thought does cross one's mind.
This is a very difficult situation. I have tried, like you Ruby, to keep everything as cordial as possible. HaWho told me a while back that with the ones that are extremely passive-aggressive (and frankly I think mine would go down in the annals as being one of the biggest ever) that it is very easy to get trapped in a tit-for-tat situation, and I have fallen down that trap for brief moments and understand entirely what she means.
I struggle with the security stuff Andrew. I do not want to do anything to hurt him in his career (which would not only hurt him but financially devastate me and the kids), and I do not want to embarrass him in any way (given his career this alone could be suicide for him) because I know how important his image is and I'm concerned about how he would respond.
I know that he really, really likes negative supply from me and that he anchor checks by taking passive actions that force me to anchor check him and give him supply. So I'm trying very hard not to have any contact with him at all or to let him know that these things bother me. I did have to tell him a few weeks ago that the insurance company is trying to reach him because it is my policy that is at issue and to them I look like the uncooperative one. He still did nothing.
While I don't think he would hurt me, there was a story recently in the news of a HS tennis coach. She and her H had been divorced for years and mostly amicably co-parenting. With absolutely no history, he killed her and the kids. We are in the very early stages of the divorce that he is clearly struggling with getting through. We are basically at the filing stage because the stuff that has happened related to it being the wrong court, which has to be sorted before you do anything else. We don't co-parent. He refuses to speak with me or acknowledge my communications unless I specifically say that I need you to respond to this. We haven't even reached anything that contentious, but his actions are already escalating wildly and becoming concerning. He is very clearly struggling with his loss of control over me and the kids.
I have sent my lawyer a couple of emails about all the stuff he has been doing but haven't heard back. She is very much don't rock the boat as long as he is still paying and son is not being harmed.
My house is pretty safe. Not easy to break into and in a visible location so that such efforts would be seen. I do find myself looking all around every time I come home and not getting out of the car until the garage door has shut. I've cut off his view of anything financial so he has no idea where we go, shop, have appointments (although now that he has the EOBs he can find that out). Everyone in my life knows that if anything at all were to happen to me, he would be the one behind it, but that doesn't really help.
I think, but can't be certain, that the affair fog is over, the chemicals have died down, life has gotten real, and he is awakening to what he has lost and is scared, but too passive aggressive to just ask to see my son or forge ahead in the divorce to get things to a normal place. I have tried again and again to reach out in a kind way to bring about a resolution, but he sees that as pursuit, tells me to move on, and does nothing. I wouldn't say that I am frightened, so much as unsettled. It is difficult to live your daily life when these "surprises" keep happening. I haven't even mentioned all of them.
Im sorry..That does sound difficult
But
If I can make one suggestion. ....try not to focus on it or intensify the fear behind it
As you said, you are in a good location and well protected..
You can and need to be alert and careful but don't let it control you ...that's what he wants
If it continues, you can speak with your L and come up with a solution
keep your energy light and send him good or if your inclined to pray
find a prayer that seems fit and send it energetically
I have one I use and it really helps in any situation where there is a bit of conflict or unease
Excellent advice Peace. I must take it and apply it because I don't want my son to sense any stress and he is hyper-vigilant and constantly worried about my emotions. I try to stay as calm as possible whenever he is around because of it.
I was sent some correspondence by a third party company through whom we have a connection that makes it appear as though he is my town and possibly intends to stay for a bit. I am hoping it is in error, but in view of Peace's recommendation and what I know I need to do, I am letting it go and focusing on other things.
Well, I guess the new normal is that he has awakened from his coma (for now) and is intent on getting a reaction, no matter what it takes it. He is now contacting third parties who in turn are contacting me about his contact (so far 2 contacts today). Wondering if the lawyer or the woman have put him up to this, or whether it is part of his process. Likely will never know and just need to move forward and keep my house as stable as possible for the kids and myself. I long for the early days of his romances when limerence and PEA were enough to keep him away.
Your h is really, really trying to rattle you cage. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative attention, just as long as he gets it and does everything in his power to remind you that he is out there.
There are some who will involve another party just to throw you off. Oh, they may say that you don't want to speak to them or have contact and will have a third party do it. He is hoping that w/a third party you might open up about what you are thinking ad doing....they all should know better when it comes to this method.
I suspect he is still in the throes of replay and he's not woken up, but is still moving slowly but surely along. He's not quite as obvious as HaWho's h, but he's following a very similar path in annoying you.
When they can't get to us, they will try something else. Who knows....one day he just might knock at your front door. Nothing surprises me w/him and his behavior.
I do suggest that you stay vigilant. Walk around your car if you are out and about. Check around your home since your home is safe and sound on the inside. Do not be surprised if you get callers advising you of things he has ordered or requested that they call back at your number. I had a lot of this nonsense a long time ago. I would also advise the post office that unless they hear directly from you, the mail is to be delivered and not held.
Try to enjoy your weekend.
Thank you for the reminders Job. I am expecting to see a ramp up in the legal stuff based on this. My lawyer seems to be incommunicado. There may already be stuff coming in that I just don't know about. Either that or he is fearful to do it through the courts so is doing this stuff instead.
I've already warned S that I expect him to turn up at school, activity again, house, store, etc. One of the contacts was to the school. He has never, ever contacted the school or shown any interest in S's education, even pre-MLC. It could be that he is trying to solicit their help to see S. Seems like having his lawyer contact mine or him contact me would have been easier, but whatever. I think he thought that by doing that I would absolutely go ballistic. The old me would have. This me politely responded with an update on our situation and asked them to share any information they felt legally obligated to share. I'm just shocked that he did it because he wouldn't even respond to the realtor about listing the house when he was so eager for me to sell it.
The other contact was from a business in my town. I think this is intended to put some fear or have me reach out demanding to know why he is here and what he is doing. I'm doing nothing.
Can't even imagine what is coming next.
Do you think this will continue until he finds a new woman (obviously the current one isn't keeping the blues at bay)?
Do you think there is anything I can do to stop it? Seems like if I respond to any of these I'm rewarding him and teaching him what it takes for the response.
I do not think the ow is out of the picture. My xh ramped up the entire time he was dating the ow and after he married the ow, the calls, drive bys, mail incidents, etc. continued until she died five years ago. Once he hooked up w/his current woman, five months after the ow/wife died, he's been very quiet.
There's nothing you can really do to stop the nonsense, except to take notes and ignore the madness. Now, if he ramps up to the point of being a threat to you or your son, then you can file a report w/the police, but I don't think he will go that far. The more you focus on him and his antics, the more he'll do it. They want attention, i.e., whether it's positive or negative.
They don't want us, but they also don't want to let us go. They want us to be as miserable as they are, thus the reminders.
I’m almost certain he is still with OW2, I just think it’s not going well. He has tended to find the new supply before cutting the old. I just think the love hormones are gone so he is remembering his kids, etc. I guess my hope is that he will find a new source of supply and go back into his fog and stop the nonsense. Lawyer and I discussed a restraining order but she doesn’t like the idea of acknowledging this stuffs bothers me. She just wants me to cut down his opportunities like moving to PO Box. The school thing will only work the one time. They will tell him how to set up an account to see the online grades and then tell him to pound sand. I’ve warned my D to be on the lookout. But she has blocked every number he has called from, changed her email, and because she’s 18, he can’t find anything about her without her consent. S has a script prepared for the next time he shows up. I guess this all that can be done for now.
You have and are doing all that you can. You never know what kind of crazy-making stuff that they will come up with. Just keep your eyes and ears open because that is about all you can do for now.
Well, he’s been using silent and proxy hoovers, so I guess this is more of that. But a little less subtle.
Before he took up with OW2 he was circling in toward home for a few months. He was posting poems on FB, which he later confirmed were for my benefit. He posted a poem about Odysseus on his way home to his wife and child, and the pull he felt between obsession and responsibility.
Yesterday he sent S an article about a piece of art on a sunken ship. The title was about Odysseus chaining himself to the mast of the ship so he wouldn’t give in to the siren’s calls (he gave his crews beeswax).
Obviously this was one of his hidden messages. I’m sure S thinks it’s about a shipwreck. I just think he thinks he’s Odysseus, facing all these temptations on his way home from war. Amusing I guess, but nutty.
Well, there has been a rather seismic shift. I would probably be best not to give any specifics. Suffice it to say Job that you are 100% correct, when they don't get the attention they are seeking they absolutely take it to a whole new level. When you respond in a detached and unexpected way you see an entirely new face of them.
What does it mean in the grand scheme of things? Likely very little. But it did help me test a hypothesis, show commitment, detachment, and kindness at the same time. It enabled me to take a situation that began in a very upsetting way and turn it around so I had a good chuckle at the end. There are a few days yet to see whether the tide will turn. Either way, I will weather the storm.
No Doubt-you will weather the ups and downs and all turn out for the best ( in a mlcer sense)
Sounds like you are learning and growing
testing things out and realizing certain things that you were not totally sure about
I think a lot of that is needed for the LBS in MLC...
Enjoy the day!
Thanks Peace. I'm working on me. I think that is the real difference.
I have been forced into much more contact with him for a variety of reasons of late and just had a long telephone call for the first time in almost a year. This on the heels of the sneaky behind my back stuff he was doing. I never let on that I knew about any of it. I just charged neutral as they say and kept to the discussion, which was about one of the children, but oddly never mentioned the other or the divorce or anything else.
He is still displaying far more emotion than he should have for this late in the process. Insofar as I can have a completely neutral conversation with him now, it is a little jarring to hear so much emotion in his voice. Cold fish is more his thing. It is largely still coming across as anger and accusation, but it quickly melts into a real softening and a return to himself. He used to love rubbing in my face his plans and commitments with the OW and why he couldn't see the children as a result. Now he only mentions work and "appointments".
We discussed him seeing the child and I once again set down the boundary on no third parties/places in view of the child's emotional issues and this time there was no push-back at all, which previously caused the almost year-long period of no contact and the nastiness that resulted in his filing (from his end, I was being calm and offering alternatives for resolution without court).
Just as he asked to have a call with me before meeting in person to try to resolve the divorce issues between us (which I requested because of the looming tax change), he has now asked for a call with the at-home child before seeing him for the first time in more than 6 months. I literally think he is afraid to go into these face-to-face meetings without some indication of what reaction he is likely to get from the other person. Even before he would talk to me about the somewhat emergent child issue, he repeatedly asked me to tell him what it was about in email before the call. I finally said I wasn't angry, or mad, and didn't want to hurt him but that there was an issue with the child that needed to be dealt with. With that, he actually called me. Shockingly, he also unblocked me immediately after the call and sent me a text so I would be able to figure out that he had done it.
Holy moly! This guy is text book narcissist. The level of spinning when he feels he is losing control is highly disturbing. I am going to go against the grain and tell you to get a house alarm, have your lawyer issue a strong letter that he is not to alter your mail (federal offense stuff!) and only communicate through a third party. The most dangerous time in a woman's life is when she is trying to separate from an abusive man. This is when the highest rate of murder, maiming and assault occur. Please don't underestimate this man, there are so many red flags popping up while I was reading this. I literally had a knot in my stomach while reading the progression of his attempts at control and and stalking.
PsySara, thanks for checking in. Given your particular specialty, it is concerning that you see cause for concern. Don't know if you recall, but he is a member of yours and your H's profession. I am very concerned about hurting him at work. I still don't think he is NPD. I think his stress has exacerbated some narcissistic traits and perhaps created a character trap. I think he is BPD and massively PA and the fear of abandonment/loss is freaking him out. He is very subtle about everything he does, and relatively careful about limiting his exposure to being revealed, but there are definitive things I can use against him if need be. I think he filed for divorce to keep OW2 happy as part of a deal to move in with her (I think he couldn't keep the demons at bay alone anymore), but now the days are ticking by and he is getting worried that I am not trying to stop the divorce or beg him to stop it.
One fact I found disturbing. I have long suspected that the daily texts (and more recently calls) to the kids were about me. I just found it odd that he would do it and not ask to see them and the content was often something that only I would get. Once I contacted him about a stupid letter his lawyer sent (I predicted he would use the case to up the ante when I did not respond to the other stuff), he stopped contacting the kids for a week. He had really been spinning and calling (unusual) and never did talk to them, hear from them, or see them, but then suddenly he stopped when he heard from me. I think that by my reaching out to him calmly and asking him to meet with me to wrap up the issues in the divorce before year end satisfied whatever had him spinning. He said he would meet me, and then claimed to be busy for a face-to-face meeting and asked for a call to set up a framework before meeting in person (he's had a draft 24 page agreement for two years--no need for a call on framework).
If I'm not mistaken, Cluster B's struggle hugely between October and January. I'm just hoping to get through this period without much more drama.
I'm glad you had a conversation w/him and yes, I do think you satisfied his "need" to hear from you. He's definitely feeling a bit uncomfortable about meeting you face to face and wants to do a temperature check prior to meeting up. If he had sensed that you were angry, the meeting would not take place.
I do hope that you will be able to get some of the work wrapped up before the end of the year. I might be wrong and completely off base, but if he has some type of communication w/you, the drama may dwindle a bit over the next couple of months. He has abandonment issues and it will be interesting to see what happens when the divorce is final.
Ok, something is going on. A rapid, friendly, and cooperative text today. January can’t get here soon enough.
OneArt
How are you doing?
Did you guys talk or meet up?
The something that you are sensing could be one of three scenarios:
1. The holidays are rapidly approaching and he is feeling the need to reconnect w/family during the holiday season. Many of them do this from now until March 17th,
2. He wants something from you and he knows that the only way he will get your cooperation is to play nice, or
3. He's done something that is going to make you angry when you discover what it is.
Call me crazy, but I have been an unwilling participant in all three scenarios. Keep on your toes.
Job, you raise so many points I've been pondering and trying to decide for me what is best to handle. Gordie I have not seen him but we had a long call. Maybe you guys can help me figure out what is going on or what I should do here. I am torn.
I can see that he can't handle not knowing what is going on here. Keep in mind I have no idea what he is doing and never have.
I do think having some communication with him makes him stop all of the stalking stuff. But how is that not cake eating, even if a very small portion of cake. I don't need to know anything about him. I'm ready to close this book for good. How does letting him carry on his super fun life and check in here to keep him calm help him or anyone else? How is it overcoming his abandonment issues so he can resolve the divorce. I think all it does is salve his wounds so he can carry on in limbo indefinitely.
I'm sick of him threatening divorce, and now using crappy letters from his lawyer to get my attention when he clearly has no ability to follow through. I offered a resolution by year end which he should be clamoring for. He uncharacteristically said we could meet to do an agreement, but then backpedaled and said he was too busy and needed a call first (he had the whole week off and only claimed to be busy 2 of the days). I said it really needs to be done in person and let me know when you can do it. Crickets on that. Once we communicated, no mention of the divorce or wrapping it up. We were on the phone for something like 40 mins about the S issue. After the initial snottiness, it was like talking to my old H. No mention of the divorce at all. Not one mention of D either.
He has gone from blocking me and refusing to respond to me at all to suddenly being warm and friendly on the phone, unblocking me, and then immediately responding to a time change text about a meeting with S a week away, and using an upbeat and friendly/informal tone. I think I've repeatedly mentioned how he is normally cold, unresponsive, and if he communicates with me at all it usually something bordering Shakespearean speech.
Job I don't think he is going to get anywhere near that divorce. I haven't heard anything more from his lawyer and nor has mine. I haven't gotten the discovery his lawyer said he would send if we didn't respond (I have no problems with him taking discovery--at least it would be moving forward in some direction and the process the lawyer proposed was ridiculous and clearly only intended to make him and his crony experts a pretty penny, while limiting inquiry to a few of the matters in the case and ignoring the huge ones).
On your three scenarios Job:
1. Yes, I can see the holidays having an impact. In his family there was always a Christmas thaw for the battling factions so in addition to how cluster B's handle this time of year, there could be some major FOO stuff going on there too;
2. If the point of nice-ing me up is for the divorce, he isn't doing a good job since I've tried to push that agenda and he avoids it like the plague. Maybe he wants to buy a house so he can get out of that sty and have some more room to hide from her and her kids. If we aren't divorced, he needs my consent (which he'll never get--why would I consent to anything when he can do whatever he wants after divorce). I raise this possibility because he was accusing me of buying in property in May and I saw that as projection. Maybe he wants to get rid of his car (fixed now according to the insurance co) and I'm on title. I was the one, yet again, who asked him to see S, but only because he is really struggling right now and even the school is raising concerns, so it can't be that;
3. Yes, he often gets nice when he has done something awful. But this time the nice feels different. Usually he pays extra money or something else that isn't very personal, not unblocks me and communicates like a human. Also, there was no indication of nice during the recent stalk-fest.
Maybe he is just messing with me, and is like I've done nasty long enough, I'll try to be nicer for a bit to freak her out. I'm not that freaked out, just still annoyed by the games and the inability to move forward. I have three trials in mid December across the country so nothing is going to get done in December and then it won't matter because of the tax change.
One more point to ponder....maybe he's finally getting his act together and waking up a bit. He maybe trying to the reconnection start up.
Or as a contrary point of view, he's just avoiding dealing with anything hard by pretending it doesn't exist.
I think though as Sarah suggested - keep on your toes and stay safe. He could probably turn on a dime.
Job, I do think he has gone through a withdrawal and a first awakening as HB described. I just don’t have much hope he’ll travel any more than that. There is so much dysfunction around everything he does, it is hard to think the human could actually emerge at any point.
Andrew, that one doesn’t quite work. No one was bothering him. He was facing no real deadlines, but when the subtle and sneaky prods weren’t working, he is the one who had his lawyer reach out to mine. I was calm and offered what I always do—a private, settled result that wouldn’t risk his job/career or embarrass our D who even at a young age has already become a public figure. Normally he ignores me or rages. This time was very, very different.
It is unfortunate that my S is struggling now and has resulted in additional contact, but his needs have to come first. I know H won’t help him, but he wants a dad so badly he just doesn’t see it.
It is likely just a cycle in or a touch and go, and I won’t be affected by it, but my son will. When he leaves again, it will bring forward more issues.
I've had the most interesting 24 hour period I've had since this saga began.
This morning, I awoke to a beautiful double rainbow that was perfectly centered outside my bedroom window. I had my daughter take a picture of it for me. it is truly glorious. I was finishing up a scary movie with the kids that we had begun the night before. I suddenly had a memory of an email I had written to my H a month or two after kicking him out for what I knew would be the last time. That morning I had seen a rainbow and written him an email telling him that I had seen this rainbow and took it as a sign that it was ok to let him go. I wished him much happiness with OW1 and let him know I was ready to wrap things up (unbeknownst to me, they broke up 8 days later). I recalled it was about this time of year and searched my email. It was exactly 2 years ago to the day. While not religious, I tend to feel certain spiritual things and don't dismiss such things as mere coincidence.
Back to yesterday. Son saw H for the first time in 6 months. The health nut (all his life) has gained about 50 lbs and is now fat, completely bald, and complaining of physical injuries. He actually ate with my son (used to sit there while others ate and would only eat 1 salad a day). He ate a lot, and ate carbs. He has been regularly traveling to a foreign country that he never expressed interest in, that is a place I took the children the first Xmas after kicking him out (and that he told me was awful and dangerous). Other than a slip using the word "we" in reference to this trip, for which according to son he instantly blanched and became tongue-tied, there was no mention of OW2, her dog, her kids, etc. Her picture is on his phone though. For the most part there wasn't a lot of revelation to what S said, just more boxes ticked on the MLC list (spending, vacations, gambling?).
Later that night son comes to me. He knows that I am very strongly opposed to firearms and weapons of any kind, as was H the whole time I knew him. H said several times in his zombie state before leaving that he would never own a gun because he was afraid he would blow his brains out). Son tells me he now owns at least 3 guns and another weapon. I am devastated for many reasons. Do my best to hold it together.
Later my D mentions the correspondence she received from him the same day I got the stupid lawyer's letter and tried to talk to him. (the last time she heard from him, a couple of weeks ago, because he is blocked. It was instructing her, curtly, to read a certain book and watch a certain movie. I looked them up. The movie is about a father and daughter living off the grid in a rural area adjacent a major city with which we have a connection. I find this somewhat disturbing, as does she.
The book is about a depressed man who has been avoiding his estranged spouse who is trying to get him to sign divorce papers. He lies about receiving them and they meet and she gives him a new copy. He tells her he isn't ready and that he can't do it. She says it has been two and a half years (bells going off big time for me) and you still aren't ready, when will you be ready (I think in the end he gives them to her).
Once more, he filed (although I repeatedly called his bluff when he threatened). The same day he sent this to her, I got the lawyer's letter and immediately reached out to him. After the usual game playing he said he would meet, then chickened out saying he was busy. It was weeks ago. He has not come forward with more dates and his lawyer has not contacted mine asking why no response to the letter. Although his demeanor has become more civil and responsive.
I don't know what he is trying to tell me or if he is asking for help. Had he been ready to sign, I gave him all the chance in the world. I have been calm and patient to a fault. i really hope this is the usual narc holiday busting stuff, and not a sign of something more troubling. I will not be contacting him.
I find it very interesting about the movie and book. Maybe in his own way, he's trying to "enlighten" you and your daughter about what is going on w/him. Some of them do give family members movies, books, poems and songs to listen to that describe what they are going through.
I think, in his own way, he's trying to tell you he's not ready to sign the papers. I do not believe there is anything you have to be concerned about something more troubling. I just think he's trying to delay the process because he's not ready to totally walk away.
Just my two cents.
Wow,OneArt -- what a day!
I was just thinking as I read your thread that it seems in some ways easier when the kids are older and can see clearly that the MLCer is not in right mind. My daughter especially loves to hang out with her dad. She refers to "old papa" and "new papa" or sometimes "good papa" (former H) and "bad papa." But she doesn't really understand that he's crazy, so it's very confusing for her.
Anyway -- Two rainbows, two years to the day after?
I know you are not a believer. If that happened to me, a serious believer, I would thank God for the extremely clear message that I must continue to stand in faith. I know you don't see it that way so I was wondering what it means to you. You said it was a spiritual sign; what is it a spiritual sign of?
Oy vey, where to begin. I swear if I did not have to live this stuff, I would never believe that it could really happen. I was on the opposite coast for work and about to fly home. I get a text from Odysseus (I just can't call him my H anymore, which is interesting in light of what I am going to write below). Perhaps OD for short.
So OD asks if he can come the following day to discuss the agreement (you know, the one he has had for 2 years). I admit, I'm slightly piqued, not having seen the man for 1.5 years or so, given the drama he caused at Thanksgiving, and how we are suddenly going to get this resolved. I was blocked for 7 months or so, and I usually only get formal emails. This was a normalish text, he was responsive, and not putting up any hurdles.
I live in an upside down house. I leave the door unlocked and when he rings I tell him to come upstairs. He is five minutes early (good job there, usually likes to keep me waiting). Comes in with a bag. I think OMG, are we actually going to talk about the agreement? Are there papers in there? A computer? A notepad? Maybe even a pen? This is shocking. (When he uses the bathroom I peak--no computer, no papers, no notepad, no pen. Rx bottles, gum, his phone, etc.). Have a normal conversation for about 2 hours about the kids, what they are doing, what their upcoming plans are. Actually seems like a father participating in a conversation.
Then he says, what are we doing to get this wrapped up, it has dragged on for a long time, what do you think we should do. I sit in somewhat shock. I say, yes, I've been trying to wrap it up for 2 years, you've had the agreement, never told me what you didn't like about it. He grumbles about stuff that is not actually in the document. I say, I don't think you've read that document. It pretty much says we will keep doing the same thing we have been doing. You can take that document and the court will finalize the divorce, or we can keep paying lawyers and battle it out. He says something to the effect of wanting to be done with lawyers. I say yes and tell him that I am particularly unimpressed with his. He says he doesn't like him either and has talked to him very little (that is pretty obvious). He says we just have a few things to resolve (shaking my head in disbelief again).
I ask him if he read the letter his lawyer sent me a little over a month ago. He says no. I say you are cced on the letter. He says I didn't see it (he always claims he never said this, did that, etc.). I read him the letter. I say where is the mention of your child in that letter. He says there is no mention. I say isn't that the biggest thing we need to resolve? He says I'm not fighting it. I said you are not fighting what. He says I will take the other weekend, but it will be as my schedule permits. I say who offered you every other weekend? I asked what son was supposed to do planning his life. He says that son can drive soon and come to see him when he wants to. I say that isn't how it works.
I ask about the cars. He says we each keep our own. I ask about retirement, and point out that even though we have a postnup that governs retirement his lawyer is asking for my accounts. He says he wants us to keep our own retirement (he has none, I have lots). I say great.
Then I ask about the house, does he want to sell it now or later. I explain what the court will do with the house if we march ahead to the trial date. He says he wants me to stay in the house until son graduates. I say its fine, I can rent an apartment. He says where. I say in the school district. He says he doesn't want us living in an apartment. I say the house needs to be sold while we are married because of the capital gain issue. I say we need to discuss the equity in the house and the amount of child support and alimony. He never does answer the child support question. He does make it clear that he doesn't want to pay me alimony. I say essentially too bad. He keeps coming back to the house. Says he doesn't want us to move. I say again, the house needs to be sold while we are still married. Then he says, well I guess we need to stay married until son graduates. This conversation makes no sense because he had told me again how much he hates the house, hates our town, thinks the real estate market is going to crash.
We got off topic into lots of the annoying stuff. I let on that I know his living situation has changed, but I don't say where. He tells me the month he moved, which I hadn't previously known. He ends up giving me a check for Xmas gifts for the kids (even though in the past he has always done a bank transfer--guess he really wanted me to see her address on his checks). He mentions her by name once. I say look, I don't know this person, she is crack with a pulse and means nothing to me.
I ask why he kicked me off the Costco card with no warning. He said it was inconvenient for OW2 to have to go with him all the time. I said you could have gotten her a card without kicking me off or you could have said hey, by the way, I kicked you off. He said we have two households, we need to divide stuff. I say great, I'm glad you are moving your auto and life insurance into your own name. Let's see: cost of my new Costco card $0 (my mom got me a card); savings to me from insurance $3,000 a year. Good deal you made for yourself OD.
Relatively early on he tells me that an adjoining state is going to legalize psychedelic drugs and suggests our daughter take them (who is this man?). Of course at this point I know he is using them, as I had suspected, based on reading about them in regards to another MLCer and figuring this is the type of thing that would appeal to him). He waves his hands around and says oh I know you'll never agree with this. I said, you've got that right.
At one point he is talking about his family, who he never wanted any part of. I tell him that my son doesn't want to see them. I point out that they have never been part of the children's lives and never reached out to any of us. He says that it is because I didn't let them in our lives. I say excuse me, you wanted no part of them. I begged you at times to reach out and you refused. He said that is because I wanted it to be on my terms, not yours.
He truly is the teflon man. Nothing sticks to him. Someone else was to blame for every single thing that happened. He didn't do this, he didn't say that. It was the bank's fault, the insurance company's fault, the post office's fault. Our daughter doesn't kiss his butt for paying her tuition. Our son can see him when he wants to. The children have not made him a priority. I say you've seen your son 3x in 2018 for about 6 hours. Was that making him a priority? I say its funny that the kids say the same thing about him.
He said that is the problem with all of you. You can't just leave the past in the past. This is the present, it is time to move on. I say that is what the people who say and do the hurtful things always say. Forget about it. I'm not going to apologize. Just get over it.
Still zero emotion. Acting like his life is so wonderful. He looks even worse than what my son described. I looked at him and only saw his father.
He says he has to leave. I say before you leave, tell me what you want to do with this lawsuit. He says I need time to think about it. I say no. You've had years. You said we need to get it wrapped up. It's your case. You sued me. Deadlines are marching forward, lawyers are expecting to be paid. What do you want to do? He says I guess I'm going to call my lawyer and tell him to make the divorce go away. Then he says we can deal with it after son graduates. More stalling. More excuses. He doesn't want the separation agreement. He doesn't plan to buy any property, doesn't want the house sold. He just wants to keep up the status quo. Then why did he file?
I think this was his entire agenda in asking for this meeting. I know what my lawyer will say. She will say good, this is the best result for you and the kids. But she is not the one who has to live it. I will never, ever be divorced from this man. Oh yes, and he wants more communication going forward (you know the guy who blocked me for 7 months, doesn't even say thank you if I send him pictures of the kids or a comment on their progress--but of course I'm lying he said, he always sends a thank you).
He is definitely out to lunch. He doesn't want anything to change and wants you to stay right where you are. The man isn't capable of making any decisions and waffles on just about everything. That has to be so frustrating. Maybe he filed because he thought it was the best move for him at the time? Maybe he filed as a way to get you to back off and he could do whatever he wanted w/o feeling guilty about it. I honestly do not know, but he is one hot mess after all of this time.
Have you thought about just asking him if he wants to come home? I know you probably don't want him back, but it might shock him back to reality a bit.
I feel for you. This is just a mess and you and your children can't continue to live this way forever.
Im sorry-reading it makes me spin
this is just my opinion
Sounds like he is expecting you and time to stand still-
he feels safe keeping you at bay-he wont have to grieve until everyone leaves
he cant let go- and in his mind after son graduates maybe he will be able to let go
BUT he cant except time is moving- he is still getting older and everyone and everything around him is changing, growing forward except him
he stands still and can make no progress, no movement. nothing
he thought upon leaving-the euphoria of freedom and OW would fuel him forever
but has only lead to a living hell-because he cant move forward-
Obviously, he is not thinking clearly to advise his D to use drugs-
he is most likely addicted and unable to control it
and addiction only leads to disaster unless it is stopped permanently
Im sorry I don't have a solution as how you can move out of this
except in energy..
you can move forward as you are by continuing to accept, take care of yourself, raise your kids and grow inwardly
I don't believe you will be M forever- meditate daily for guidance
it will come clear to you-
all the best
O. M. G.
What a mess.
You need to cut the cord so that none of his mess overlaps in to your life. Sorry for sounding harsh but he's a train-wreck and sounds completely unable to deal with reality.
Sadly it could also get worse.
Just my opinion - you're closer to this than we are.
I believe to take the tax deduction on the sale of the house he would have to have lived in the house sometime in the past 3 years? (Not completely sure about the time frame). I don't think divorced or not matters if both of your names are on the deed - it would be $500 k for a couple or $250 k each for two singles. You may want to check with an accountant on this.
OneArt...
yup... I get it... if you weren’t the one living it, you’d certainly not believe it.
The comment about him and the drugs is insane. Unbelievable. We’ve talked a lot about control, and sometimes when they throw these assanine ideas out there, I do think it’s their attempt to exert control. Yup... you thought of everything One, but I’m gonna one-up you by suggesting D take these because I have all the answers and I will always know more than you. Maybe??
That, or he’s just an alien living in his Teflon coated universe where the whole world revolves around him and yet he is not responsible for anything. << oh boy can I relate to that all too well.
As I was reading your update, I actually thought of the same thing job suggested. He clearly doesn’t know what he wants, but if you ask him if he wants to come back.. you might get an idea.
You likely don’t even want to put it out there, but you may find something out. I think of it like empathic listening.. even if you don’t nail it correctly, it opens the door for clearer insight. (Ie: if you were to have a dialogue with someone who was venting to you, you could say, you sound sad because x,y, z. The person could respond with a yes, I am sad or No, I’m actually angry and distressed. Either way you get a deeper clue into what someone is feeling.)
Well, that approach works with “normal” folks... not sure how that that would fly with your h.
Good luck with everything One... as always you still to eminate strength.
Thank you for all of your wisdom and kindness. I think the comments on this update have been the most helpful to me personally, but maybe it is just reaching a certain state of hearing what you want to hear, or being ready to hear what you are told.
I apologize for the red-herring tax discussion on the capital gain. I don't give a squat about the capital gain. I've already talked to my accountant. It is an individual thing and he wouldn't qualify. I simply used it to him as a reason to reach an agreement to sell prior to a late summer court date, and missing yet another market opportunity. If we go to trial I will be awarded the house and have to eat all the fees when it comes time to sell. I am worried about where the real estate market is heading. I did tell him that he will need to get independent tax advice on whether he qualifies since it is an individual thing. Enough about taxes.
I sent my attorney an email last night summarizing the conversation and a few of the things he said. Then I really thought about whether I could keep doing this and start over with a reluctant divorcer two and a half years from now. I can't. I wrote him an email this morning. I told him that I didn't think it was a good idea to put it off. That we would be back to the same place. I told him that I was worried about the significant change in his appearance and how all of this being unresolved was affecting his health. I told him I didn't want him to think of me as the source of strife in his life and that I want him to be happy. I told him that I really do want to sell the house and move to an apartment for son's last couple of years as I plan to leave the area as soon as he is done. I told him that I want him to come up with a set of numbers that will allay his concerns about the security of his own job and his ability to fund his own retirement. I also told him that I want us to end this in a way that will ultimately make our children proud.
In reality, I have six tough years ahead. After that, I have plenty of retirement and will have enough from the sale of the house. I will take KML's suggestion and take the pay-out of all of the equity in lieu of alimony and ask for only enough child support to get both kids through college. In theory, all of this should be good. It should get it done. But I have never believed that his reluctance has anything to do with money.
My lawyer then called me and I filled her in on what happened, and one detail I omitted in my write-up here. He was here for 3.5 hours. As he was leaving, he had to go to the kitchen to throw something away. He grabbed the island, and held onto it. He was looking across to the living room where my beautiful Christmas tree stood with the children's presents wrapped below it. To his left was the hearth with the stockings they've had their entire lives. Straight ahead of him was the amazing view we have of water, mountains, and the major city we live near. He held onto the island for what was at least two minutes, and tears rolled down his cheeks. I looked away so as not to embarrass him. He then quietly walked down the steps and left.
Before she could comment, I also told my lawyer about the email I wrote him. I told her that I need to be done, now. I told her that I don't care about the money. I have enough. I just need to be out of this situation once and for all. She told me that she was very impressed by my email to him and then sometimes people need to be lead. She said that because he was able to come to the house and look me in the eye after 1.5 years and stay as long as he did, that she is more hopeful that we can reach a "normal" resolution. She reminded me that I have always been his rock. I have always made the big decisions, until not long ago, I made the money. I carried the burden of our family's success. Not only does he have that burden now for our family, he has it for OW2 and her 3 children as well. I told her about the crazy, all the lies (there were much more of each than what I documented). She said with my willingness to leave the house and take significantly cheaper lodgings, that this might be the catalyst to free him.
I will say Job, that part of what I said to him was that I had tried to be strong for the children and for him. That I had hoped that he would work through the things he was going through, and that I realized that maybe, the person he is now, is the real person. I told him that was OK. What mattered is that he is happy with who he is, how he conducts himself, and how he treats others. I told him I wanted him to be his authentic self, even if that person was someone very unlike the person I knew. I feel that this was as much as I could say to let him know that I had been willing to forgive. I know how you always say they want us to approve of who they are and their choices, and I tried very hard to do that.
My lawyer and I agreed that I probably won't hear from him for some time. That he will have to think through and process what I have said. I will leave him to it. We have an administrative deadline coming up in the divorce, but after that a few months to the trial.
While I wrote what I hoped would perhaps push him along, I said only things that I genuinely felt. I told him that I love him and that it hurts me to see his hurt. I told him that I am scrappy, and that even if things are difficult at times, that I will thrive and that he need not worry about me. I told him that I wanted to leave our marriage with kindness, civility and grace and with respect to all that we had accomplished together. I told him that I could not remain married to another woman's boyfriend and that his OW2 (I used her name) and her children deserved more than that too. I asked him to contact me when he was ready to talk.
wow
You sound clear and strong and ready
All I hear is forgiveness and acceptance and you are clearly setting him free
seems like the cord is cut on your end-
I sincerely hope this will become an gentle process for you and your kids
because all your work is clearly done to this point of letting go- and
that the universe will continue to open doors to accomplish your D and set you free to really move on from this phase of your life-
I have no real advice, but I do second what peace said about focusing on it.
Best wishes
I am so proud of you. You have shown acceptance of how the situation is and the forgiveness rings very true throughout your posting.
he tree, the stockings, the gifts and looking out across the landscape. The tears he had were genuine and now he's realizing what he has lost. He may eventually tell you how he felt standing there, but it may not happen for a while.
You have done everything possible to support your h and your marriage, but it's time to start a new chapter in your life and I hope and pray that he will now realize it is time to set you and your family free.
Merry Christmas to you and your family. My wish for the new year for you is that you finally get the peace and happiness you so richly deserve.
One art
Wow
You are an amazing woman
So strong and compassionate and loving
To be able to conduct yourself the way you do
Face to face with crazy
To authentically love
To authentically listen
To authentically speak
To authentically wish him well
Thank you for your inspiration to us all
My only advice is you and your L will likely have to force this to completion
He just does not seem capable
My w also did not speak to her L
Merry Christmas
Thank you for your lovely comments. Surprisingly, he got back to me very quickly. He made a sort of proposal that wasn't too far off the one that has been on the table all of this time. Despite having previously told me that he was off, when I gave him a chance to come over and make the changes together so that we could reach agreement on all terms and get sign-off by year end, he claimed to be too busy to do it. I told him that by doing it then he could save significantly on his taxes moving forward, and rather than biting, he disappeared once again. It was probably too much for him and felt like it was moving too fast, even though it took more than two years to get there. I heard nothing further from him.
I had to contact him today because of an unexpected purchase that I have to make and doing so without his consent would violate our financial restraining order. He actually responded to me relatively quickly and was very pleasant and agreeable. Of course no mention of resolving the divorce.
I guess that is the beauty of having no expectations. I'm not taking this stuff personally anymore. I'm just happy to be having a lovely holiday with my kids. I hope all of you are finding those moments to remember in what can sometimes be a difficult time of year. I feel like the kid in the room full of manure, there has to be a pony in there somewhere, and I think 2019 will be my time to find it.
We have three mandatory dates in our divorce, everything else is discretionary. I believe he missed the first one a few days ago (I have not heard from my lawyer regarding the filing and she generally forwards everything the moment she receives it, it required our participation in order to prepare it, and the docket does not show the document was filed). This is an important deadline, although the filing is somewhat basic. The rules are very clear how it has to be filled out. My lawyer previously said the parties always cooperate in getting it timely filed because the consequences for missing it are onerous for both clients and their attorneys. This suggests to me that he has stopped cooperating with his attorney.
He has also pulled back in his communication with the children. He did not even wish them a happy new year. Although much more sporadic, it seems less forced and he is now contacting them individually (one by text and the other by email) instead of the meaningless daily group text. He is also being more paternal (did you arrive safely, how is your activity going, when will you be back home, thank you for the thank you card, etc.).
He has not contacted me since we met at his request. Other than his ready agreement to my making a significant purchase, I have not heard from him. He has not done two things to separate our accounts that he told me he would take care of when we met.
Still in limbo. No end in sight. But I don't have the same ominous feeling I had for the last many months (pretty much since he filed and started doing all of his creepy baiting). I feel as though maybe he has reached some plateau where he intends to hang out for a while. All speculation on my part, but the tension feels as though it is gone--for now.
He is going to have to do something in the divorce soon. If he does not agree to something or dismiss in the next couple of weeks then we have to show up at a special hearing before the judge and explain why the filing got missed. If he fails to show then, the court will fine him and dismiss the case.
Good Morning OneArt
Lovely to hear from you. I alway enjoy your updates and insights. You have things well in hand, and I am not talking about the legal stuff; which btw you’ve got mastered. You are in limbo and sound at peace, not resigned to this. No ominous feelings and a lack of tension, that is great.
H’s communication is evolving again. It is interesting being more directed and not so group orientated, and less in number. I wonder where it is all headed, maybe quality instead of quantity. I suppose time will tell.
I also wonder what will happen within the next few weeks. Those days for court documents are mandatory. The follow up explaination meeting with a judge and fines or penalties sound like enough incentive for him to keep things moving along, but here you are.
Zero expectation girl. You’ll probably remain within limbo’s grasp for a while - hug it right back. It’s where you are at the moment, enjoy it, enjoy life.
I know you got this.
DnJ
I have this feeling he's not going to do what is mandated to be done. He's going to let it run its course and have it thrown out.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this man wants a divorce at the moment. Yes, he complains, etc., but he's definitely not showing much in the way of initiative to get anything done.
Try to enjoy your life as much as possible because it looks like limbo will still be around for a while.
Job:
I fear that you are right. He has not contacted me to further discuss wrapping things up and we are marching toward the court hearing that he necessitated by missing his filing. I haven't heard from him and I have not heard from his lawyer. (nor have I heard from my own) I've been watching the docket, and nothing has been filed. I can't imagine him showing up to face the judge when he couldn't give his lawyer an instruction to fill out a simple form. My guess is that he will eat the fine and hope that the court dismisses the case.
He has stopped contacting the children. Not sure what is going on. I don't have any reason to believe there is anything wrong with him. Were there, I imagine someone would tell me. I track the number of days he contacts the kids. The numbers for November and December were way, way down. But he and I had significantly more interaction than in the 1.5 years prior to that. Not sure why communicating with me stops him from communicating with them, but I have observed this throughout the process. I haven't seen any indicia of him doing anything bizarre, although we have not received our new insurance cards, which he must have received. I guess when we need to see a doctor or fill an Rx or something I will contact him.
I think the one question I have is whether he is questioning his choice, or whether his depression is simply so profound that he can't make any decision or get anything done. I know that I will probably never have the answer to this. While it doesn't keep me up at night, it is something I wonder about from time to time.
DnJ:
I hope you don't mind that I answer here about your limbo post. I don't want to detract from what you wrote there with my own take on it.
I do think that limbo is a choice. While I have felt cornered at times in this process, I have always known that I have ways out, emergency buttons I could push to make it end. Yet, I have made excuses not to push them. I do realize they are excuses. They are founded in truth and there is concern there. But ultimately they are excuses. Had I really and truly wanted to be out of this situation, I could have gotten myself out.
So why have I not?
I think my need to be free of the situation is less than my fear for how pushing it through would affect him. I think in some way, I am still trying to fix him or soften his blow. I would look him in the eye and ask him what he wants and what he wants me to do and then I would do it for him, but I don't believe that he is capable of answering that question truthfully. And, unlike many, I am financially better off in this limbo than I will be after the resolution. To push it through now would limit what I could do for my kids. I'd rather he spent the money on the kids than the OW or his addictions.
As you know, I'm not religious. But my limited understanding of that kind of limbo is that it refers to babies who die before they are brought into the church. My limbo is of course the other kind, the waiting kind. For me, it is waiting for him to make a decision and stick to it. When I still cared what the outcome would be, when I still hoped in some small way he would come back, that limbo was torture. Once I realized that he doesn't have anything to offer me (other than financially), the limbo became nothing. It was almost like someone cut off the weights that were bearing down on me.
I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. Other than this divorce going through, I don't feel like I'm waiting to do anything else. Now when I want to do something, I do it. I don't think for a moment what he would care about it. I find the lawsuit a nuisance. I don't like deadlines being missed. I don't like having to pay lawyers, etc. So for those reasons I am fine if the case gets dismissed. I do think ultimately he and I will reach an agreement between us. One that we can both live with. I think he just needs more time to overcome his fears.
Maybe I also need more time. I was arrogant. I really thought I had married for life and that we would work it out and get through it. I thought I had done the right things and invested the right amount of time, effort and energy. I am really not used to this kind of epic failure, but I am getting there. It is not a societal thing. It is a me thing. I'm unpacking my pride one plume at a time. I'm also figuring out who I am and who I would have been without him. It is a slow journey for me. People like you arrive there much quicker.
One,
You have a deep inward view of your truths
also I love that you take a stand to make the choices for your life and you see that
And yes staying where you are does not mean there is no inward movement
We all have our reasons for our choices and that is good enough
I am doing this mediation for 15-30 minutes daily and then journeling especially on topics of indecision
I choose to follow a divine direction, if I can connect to it
this way I feel I will be lead correctly, but there are no mistakes but it makes me feel secure in my choices
Change is slow for us but even though many take different roads externally the inward movement is the same
a slow steady process
of trusting ourselves knowing we navigate our lives and everything we do is our decisions not the decisions of others
well said Peace.
One, my wish for you in this new year is that you see how far you've come in such a short time and you realize how truly amazing you are
xoxoxo
I totally agree w/Peace and bttrfly. You have done an amazing job of keeping things together and moving forward. Keep up the good work and the advice that you provide to others is spot on. Thank you!
OneArt
It is interesting how you see your excuses to choose to not end limbo. Your answers to - “So why have I not?”
I see your responses as your reasons to choose limbo. Same statements different viewpoint.
For what it is worth, I fully support your position. You long ago explained how this makes sense financially and his money could most definitely be spent better on kids than OW or other addictions.
I have always thought of you as an amazing person - a keen intellect, heart felt wisdom, and a humour that is twisted just the right amount. It is no surprise you know you could extract yourself at any time and realize the benifits of not.
To me it looks like your limbo is reserved to him agreeing to the divorce, everything else is living forward. There really is a nothingness associated with it, isn’t there. Kind of cool, after all the stress that was endured.
Take care.
Oh btw, my own epic failure of a marriage - ya not use to that at all.
DnJ
Thanks DnJ, always more than one way of looking at things I suppose.
Ok, so it's birthday time of the year. Year 1--sent me a very nice card asking me to "imagine the possibilities". Year 2--nothing. Year 3--I get a large deposit in my bank account. I'm sure it is a mistake, but it is rather funny. I'm waiting to hear from him asking for it back or accusing me somehow of being devious in "taking" it. Maybe he will be PA and have the bank do his dirty work. He might wait until tomorrow since I'm sure he would get my cooties by contacting me today.
He started contacting child at home again this week. He is doing weird things with the times he contacts him. They are not coincidental. I am predicting that S will get a text at a very specific time today, namely 1:17pm. Will be interesting to see if he does.
Still nothing on the divorce, the agreement, the auto insurance or the health insurance cards.
In general, after seeing what everyone else is going through, I've decided I've been a big baby for complaining about anything, at any time, ever. I will choose instead to embrace the 99% of my life that is going great. Peace and love to you all.
Happy Birthday
Did he respond at 1:17
Happy Birthday!
I hope I don’t get cooties.
lol
Happy birthday, One! Wishing you peace!
Happy Birthday One! May this year bring more joy, peace and happiness! xoxoxo
Happy Birthday
In no way are you a big baby
We all need someplace safe to vent
Thank you guys for the lovely birthday wishes. It was an interesting day. More on that later.
Ok guys, I fear this is going to be a long one. There is definitely something going on with him.
First a question for Job: You know how when they leave they say, "I haven't been happy for a year or two." Then it is five, ten, and finally the whole marriage. For a long time, I have heard how he never should have married me. We should have dated 3 months and broken up. He settled with me. On and on. Today, in another long in person meeting he says that he was not happy the last 10 years of our marriage. Do they start working backward? The interesting part, I would agree, the first changes/emotional withdrawal from him were 10 years ago. First time he has ever said something that approximated our reality.
There was a lot of back and forth and I'm mostly going to try not to do it ad nauseum, but I feel like some significant stuff happened here that might be helpful to myself looking back some day or someone now in the future.
He contacted S for 9 days around my birthday, but went stone cold silent on the day. Cooties won. Remember I said I got a big deposit that day unexpectedly (it was $15k). I had to take mom to a bunch of dr visits, then we went out to dinner. Noticed S had cut himself again. As usual he articulated that it was sadness over dad. Next day at 4 am someone tries to hack into one of my financial accounts (one I had forgotten about and I"m sure H had too). I start feeling guilty about the $15k and feel like he is testing me.
Day after bday I write and say I got some money that I think I wasn't supposed to get. Would like to return it to you and discuss some time sensitive matters (the upcoming D hearing and S's cutting and heading into finals and concerned about his mental health at this time). He plays games. Responds one word at a time. Takes hours between. Says he is going to visit his dad and is unavailable for weekend (the man who abandoned him at age 8, lived 3 miles away his whole life, and barely saw him). Father lives past us so you have to drive by our town (literally less than 1/2 mile off the freeway). I reveal, after talking to L, that S has self-harmed, school situation is not looking great into finals, very concerned about him, need OD to come talk to me and talk to S--so S can at least feel like dad cares and actually study for these finals before he blows his gpa. OD never asks how he self-harmed, how is he doing, nothing. Never asks about money. Refuses to respond about talking about and to S. Refuses to come. Weekend goes by (clearly passes by here again on Sunday and had previously said he was available Monday). He leaves what S describes as menacing vm and tells him that he will be talking to him on phone. S blcoks OD.
Getting to mid-morning. No word from OD about whether he is coming here. Text him. He says he is working and can't come. Tells me I will have both kids unblock him. Back and forth texting. For various reasons I want to get it done today and go and meet him at coffee shop in horrible town where he lives.
Another of those surreal conversations. All over the place. Sometimes rationale. Sometimes insane. Lots of gaslighting. Near beginning almost like he is taunting me with picture of OW2 on his big phone. I calmly take the phone out of his hand turn it over, and put it down on table next to him. I tell him, you will not disrespect me like that. He says you need to move on. I said I did, two years ago, but I'm still not going to be disrespected.
Tell him about missed deadline and upcoming hearing. Explain time for hearing and cost to each side, explain we can just pay fine and document is no big deal, but that there will be other deadlines. He had said in the text battle that we would have everything resolved before hearing. I said no time. I say what to do you want to do. He said dismiss case and work on settlement. I say fine.
Talk about S. Tell him that I was not going to put up with passive-aggressive phone games anymore, told him that controlling information and communication was form of emotional abuse and I wouldn't tolerate it. Told him he was wrong to not come see S and there was no excuse. He said OW2 was with him. I said you could have dropped her at Starbucks. He accused me of physical abuse throughout our marriage. Absolute lie. I said I guess you have to tell people something other than that you went crazy and walked out on your wife and kids, huh. I said rewrite history all you want. I'm the one that went to the ER with physical abuse (and even then only 1x and very early in marriage-not discounting, but seriously, there was no physical abuse from me and only the one incident from him). He quickly drops that line.
I tell him I'm not ordering kids to unblock him. He needs to work that out with them. Past is not the past. He needs to make amends for what he did. He said, huge admission, "I was wrong in the order I did things." He was wrong about a lot more than that but hey, after years, I'll take that.
He says we have an agreement we can wrap this up quickly (why dismiss then?). I say no, you haven't indicated who will pay for S college. Finally he says he will pay for it but he says where. I said no dice. S says where.
Talk about S self harm over unresolved feelings for dad. He blames me since I'm the one with S. I said I can be everything for S but his dad, and while he doesn't think you fit the bill, he still wants a father figure. I tell him that I have left him to his own devices for 2.5 years and that now I'm taking that away. I name a particular day of the week and I say you will see S on this day after school and take him for food, counseling, and then fun. You will not miss a single day. You will tell your job and OW2 that you are not available for anything on this day. Your S will be your number one priority on this day if no other day. He says, "I'm fine with that." Then says he wants to spend more time with S than that. I said let's start with that and make sure you can follow through.
He said S said you won't let him drive X car (my sporty convertible, no longer in production, quite small). i say that is not appropriate for S. His commitments take him into the country on rutty, dirt roads. He needs a truck. I can buy one from someone I know and get a good deal. I tell him what it is and the cost. He says he wants no part of it. Its on me if I want to do it.
Conversation goes on, insults both ways. He says he wants to be divorced asap because he has his elderly parents to care for. WHAT??????? He has never wanted anything to do with them and now suddenly Mr. Only It For Himself is going to take care of them? The same guy who couldn't stop on the way and see his S. I am shocked. Then I start thinking about the reconnection order.
He tells me repeatedly what I have to do to repair his relationship with the kids. I say no can do, that is on you. He says he wants S to unblock him. I say that is up to S. I say write him an email and send it to me and I'll give it to him. Tell him you are going to see him on this day and you would like him to unblock you. He says I'm not doing what you tell me. I say ok. He says make S unblock me. I say no. That is S's choice. S calls right then. Has to go to ER. I say I'm calling grandma to take you. I hang up. I say I need the insurance card, S is going to ER.
We wrap things up. He says he is telling his lawyer to dismiss case. He is coming next week to do agreement (I had three meetings with him about the same agreement 2.5 years before and after it was prepared as agreed, he never signed). Not holding my breath.
I'm in car. I say you never said anything about the money. He says write me a check. I say, I thought you might like me to keep some of it to go toward S's truck. He says how much, I say $10k. He says fine, give me $5k before I change my mind.
As I'm about to pull out, he looks at me, again with weepy eyes (always on departing) and says thank you so much for driving out to me. It means so much. I say I hope you know how much I hate coming to this place. He says I do. Now earlier in the conversation he told me at least once that he hates me. He said he hated talking to me because I filibuster him. He repeatedly told me I was insane when I brought up things he has previously admitted to. He also said that my voice is an indication that I'm not doing well (remember I told him his physical appearance had changed in a concerning way). I said I've been sick with bronchitis and asthma since S brought home a bad virus.
I tell him to send me photo of insurance card. I need to get it to S at the ER. I drive home (an hour) and go to ER. S has bad cut--kitchen accident. OD texts and asks how he is. I tell him and send picture. I tell S that OD wants him to unblock him and that he should send text letting OD know he has done it. They text back and forth. We are delayed coming home. As we are almost here, OD calls S. S waffles on whether to answer. V/m must have kicked in. We come in house. I text OD. I said try him again in .5. We were almost home and he was waffling. Give him a little time to settle in. Don't try for too much and don't talk long. He has a final. OD acknowledges receiving the text. Just about a first. I thank him and say you may not understand why something so small matters, but I appreciate you acknowledging my efforts to help you. He then replied with a thank you. This is big stuff for him people.
Can't believe he went from complaining about the car to letting me keep $10k to put toward it. At times he looked me straight in the eye. At times he was nice. At times he was a massive ahole. I was a trooper. No tears. Good mood. Said my peace.
Ah yes, forgot that at one point, when talking about how he couldn't wait to get this done, he said you don't want to be married to me either. I said, "I have no interest in being married to the person you are now. But I loved the person I married and was married to for 20 years very much. I miss him."
Also forgot when discussing D, I said she was creeped out by him and asked, "Why would you tell her to watch a movie about a father who kidnaps his daughter and hides her in a park living off the grid and avoiding authority for years, and tell her to read a book about a man who hides from the process server to avoid signing the divorce papers his wife tried to get him to sign for 2.5 years (recognize the timing there?)." He says, "I thought they were both enjoyable."
Now I know why they came up with SMH.
Good Morning OneArt
Wow. Interesting day indeed.
You were, and are, awesome. Well done.
A few truth darts, looks like they were well received, a little bit, maybe even more than a little bit. Time will tell.
My favourite bit, for you and him:
I have no interest in being married to the person you are now. But I loved the person I married and was married to for 20 years very much. I miss him.
How is son doing? Having to go to ER, the cut must have been pretty bad.
OneArt, you know you did well. Boundaries, staying on topic(s), and keeping him focused (that’s like herding cats). He said so much information, I am sure it will take some time to fully digest and accept it. Good idea to write it down for future reflecting.
Will talk more, I’m running late.
DnJ
One
You did great
Im not sure how much the MLCer retains, but he did seem to hear and be somewhat cooperative.
Sorry about S- I know my 17 year old S is also in therapy muddling through his feelings of abandonment from his dad. Definitely very sad for a mom to witness- Im glad your H can be a little present for S-
boys do need male role models.
Im not sure our H will ever understand the damage they inflicted-must be hard to deal with for the MLCer
so they run further down
I know MY xh has covered himself with drugs and alcohol to cope
I hope your H will find his way out of the mess he created-
You said your peace and Im sure that much feel good-
Hopefully some of it-sticks with him
He realized he did wrong- he apologized
His tears also show his remorse, for his actions-
Hopefully he can find his way
Your kindness, honesty and love and forgiveness will only help him -
OneArt,
Yes, they do tend to go from being unhappy one month and on and on and on. If he had been that unhappy for that many years, he would have done something about it when it began to go down hill for him. You most certainly would have picked up on his unhappiness that long ago. It's the depression talking.
As for taking care of his parents...well, that may be true, but I suspect he wants attention and empathy. He is no where close to wanting to take care of his parents. He is still rambling on about things, i.e., wants the divorce yesterday, but can't get himself to hearings, etc.
As for you keeping the money and using some of it towards a vehicle for your son...that makes him look like an upstanding father by saying do it. The man is thirsting for recognition and an "attaboy" on the back.
Tomorrow...who knows...he could bounce back into another world entirely.
Oneart
You are strong
So glad you flipped that phone over
And hope S is better from the cut
Those are super creepy movies to send D
Wow
The main thing that struck me
Is how much he wants you to fix his R with the children
As messed up as it is
At least he desires the connection
Even if he has no current skills to make them
Depression is blinding
Thanks guys.
DnJ: that was the most truth darts I ever gave him and they included things going back into the marriage, including that the withholding was a severe form of emotional abuse. He said some rotten things to me that were either lies or pretty lame, I think in an effort to lower me in some way. I took it for the usual tit-for-tat.
Peace: this time he came and when he sat down I could see and feel the armor he erected for our talk. I think waiving the pic of OW2 in my face was a way to taunt me. I think I handled that part as well as I could. As we talked, the armor came down. I think when he said he hates talking to me because I filibuster him, he meant that I always get my way, like he is a powerless victim. I think he cries because at the end he can let his guard down. The battle he prepared for is over. I think after so long, he does have feelings for me and I think in that moment they come out a bit. I imagine he isn't happy that he does it and does not like me seeing his vulnerability. He did telling me during the talk that I would never have anything to worry about and he would always take care of me.
Job: I was just very surprised that he went from the whole length of our marriage being awful, to now only the last 10 years. Almost as though he admitted to almost 20 good years. Very, very strange. I hope you are right about his parents. I think his "taking care of them" will amount to the doctor making a phone call once a month and seeing them once or twice a year. I do find it very sad that as he is again telling me he wants to dismiss, he repeated over and over how much he wants it to be done. Doesn't want me to think he might not want to go through with it. I had a good feeling I'd be able to get the money. At one point I thought about asking for all of it, but then I didn't want to go too far. I did tell S that he generously agreed to pay for part of the truck and asked S to thank him for it, which S did.
Gordie: he is definitely wanting to get closer to the kids. I hope that it is legitimate and not just to satisfy OW2 or his family. He repeated over and over again that he wanted 3 things from me pertaining to the kids. I told him that I was not making any promises and that he did the damage and needed to put in the effort. He does seem to be trying with S, but his efforts usually don't last long. It will be interesting to see if I get any reports from D, but even if she does hear from him, she will probably not tell me. She just doesn't care and doesn't like to talk about him period.
S texted me from school to say that the wound was leaking blood. I contacted Dr. OD and asked if I should take him to the doctor or keep an eye on it. They used glue to seal the wound, so I wasn't sure if something leaking out was a good thing or bad. He said to keep an eye on it and take him to the PCP if necessary. It was the quickest he ever got back to me (and there have been a few other health issues over the last few years). It was definitely not snotty, which he normally is. I thanked him for the response and said I'd keep an eye on it. I wish we could have this kind of normal, civil, exchange on a regular basis, but it depends on which personality he is turning toward me and how well things are going in his life.
I'm not holding my breath on anything here. Maybe he will dismiss, maybe he won't. Maybe he'll come next week to discuss resolution, maybe he won't.
Well, that didn't take long. His lawyer had the dismissal to my lawyer before 8 am the day after we spoke. I find this shocking. The guy never gets anything done and delays, delays, delays, but dismissing his own divorce, he can do that in record time (I wonder if that was the email he sent while we were talking?). Still hasn't gotten back to me with what day/time he is coming next week to "get the agreement done" (you know, the one he has had for more than 2 years). Oy vey.
I wonder what his reaction would be if you filed and pursued the D
Now that would be interesting!
I have played out every one of those hands many times, and there is no winning combination. OD isn't a dummy; he has set up the status quo so I would be stupid to do that. That is the problem with leverage. In some respects I have it, and in others he does. I have dirt on him, but if I use it, there is no income to pay support. If he makes me take a default, I get a fraction of what I would get could I litigate the way I need to in order to protect my son. Instead OD dangles the carrot of a settlement that will never come about and in the meantime gladly pays me much more than I could get from pushing it through and more or less leaves my son alone (which causes a different set of problems).
How many of you would pay out everything you have in attorney fees to take significantly less money than you are getting now, with the added bonus that if you push forward, you force your child into a less than desirable custody arrangement?
I think DnJ is right. Being apprised of my options, I choose limbo. I just have to embrace that choice. We all have choices to make. I don't control what cards I get, only the way I play them.
yes one - you are smart to play it our the way that seems best for you
I get the sense he wants to keep you right where he left you and he will pay extra or whatever
maybe so he does not have to truly let go or loose you
Maybe more so after the last few visits
He's not ready to give you up. He wants you to remain right where he left you pre crisis. I did think of one other reason why he went for dismissal. Maybe he's got a lady friend who is pushing for a more permanent relationship and he doesn't want it, so he's using the lack of a divorce as an excuse.
It's really hard to determine what is going on in his mind...but in time, more will be revealed.
Continue to live your life and I hope that your son is doing better today.
Ok, was not thinking I would mention this because in the moment I wasn't 100% sure of the vibe. But, he was definitely looking at me with intensity. Not sweet and loving, but there was some kind of electricity coming from him. At one point, he came very near to me as we were leaving (I seriously don't think I have been that close to him in years), our faces were very close together and he was looking very deeply into my eyes. In the past he would never have gotten this close to me and, having done so, he certainly wouldn't look me in the eye. I wasn't sure whether it felt menacing or what (was he trying to stare me down?), but it was very different than the cold fish thing he normally does.
My top contenders for not letting go:
1. Fear--I believe he is borderline and he is terrified to let go. I think it is mostly about him;
2. Control--he really likes to know what I am up to and make me have to come to him at times--yank me around with money, insurance, etc.;
3. Possession--I think he thinks he owns me and yes, that I am sitting nicely on the shelf for him;
4. Triangulation--I do think he uses me to triangulate the OW, make her work really hard with the threat that he can always come back (or so he thinks); and
5. Marriage-proof--since he is messing around on OW2, no doubt he realizes she isn't "the one" and he doesn't want to get stuck as you say Job.
Son is struggling, but a lot of it is his own making. He has a tough few days ahead because it is finals and then can take a mini break and pull himself together. Hopefully OD will show up as he said for him next week. I have also made an appointment to consider medication for him. Not something I want to do, but may be necessary.
Hello OneArt
Being apprised of my options, I choose limbo. I just have to embrace that choice. We all have choices to make. I don't control what cards I get, only the way I play them.
I will add something, I am sure you already know.
Embracing a choice doesn’t mean it is forever, it is just accepting and living it fully right now.
When you play your hand based on your values, beliefs, and what is best for you and your’s, you’ll always do alright.
So, since we are both in limbo, with cards we didn’t deal...
Got any fours?
DnJ
I do think your list is pretty accurate, and is in order of most probable or highest percentage of reason.
I tend to think your H has all those things in play. The most pertinent being fear and control, and then all the way down the list. It definitely is not just one thing.
Sorry about son. This has been hard on him. What year is he in? I hope he does well in his finals and the break helps. It would be nice if Dad would see him; it would probably be good for both of them.
Good for you booking an appointment to discuss medication for son. I am sure it will be informative. I understand your feelings of how you don’t want it and yet how it might be becoming necessary. How does son feel about maybe taking medication?
DnJ
Those may all be reasons for him not to change the status quo - BUT - all too often, when a situation like this financial one goes on, it is because there is a financial benefit to the WAS in maintaining things this way. I know you've looked at it before but please, just be careful that he isn't doing any financial hanky panky that could come back to haunt you, like taking out credit cards in your name or such.
What KML says was the case for me
while my XH was paying us a lot during separation, he was also exhausting all the business funds, and the credit cards
and spending mutual funds on his new life and OW
when all was said and done, it was me who had to rein burse the business to keep it from going under-
Your list is quite accurate
and maybe he does feel a little attraction..
I believe Love probably never dies
how did it make you feel?
did you feel the same?>
Yes, KML thank you for the priceless efforts to remind us to keep an eye on those items. In the past I would have said, he would never do that, he is not reckless with money (he was wearing the crappy shorts I bought him at Costco 15 years ago and still drives his 6 year old car with a million miles). I'm pretty sure I said he'd never drink or take drugs. So, yes, I have a monitor on my credit. We have only one joint credit card account and it is the top account on my mobile banking app. I keep it at $0 balance so any charge on there stands out. I only keep it because the credit limit is high and divorce kills credit. Plus if he screws me over on the support again I'll just charge everything to that card.
I think DnJ that you are right. I do think all the reasons apply and at some moments one is at the fore and at others another is. I don't think anything with him is ever static. I don't know enough about poker to know what a winning hand is, but I like that you are collecting 4s instead of holding out for a royal flush. I think it shows what a stable, logical guy you are and how a win for you is a good solid play.
Ok Peace, that is a very hard question you asked. I thought everyone would hit me on that one, which was why I didn't mention it at first. When he looked at me so intently, and I do have to say this, he has the most lovely eyes of anyone I've ever seen, that for a moment I felt like I saw the old him. I wouldn't say I felt an attraction, it was more of a feeling of less of a revulsion in that moment. For about two years now I have really seen him as a syphilitc chancre so maybe that was the first time I didn't feel complete disgust the whole time I was in his presence. But, he did say some really sh$tty things to me, which I knew were projection and score-keeping, but they definitely helped keep things in perspective.
His lawyer even managed to screw up the dismissal, which I had to rewrite. They wrote it with prejudice meaning that neither of us could refile for divorce. Uh, no. My lawyer seems to be hiding, so I have no idea when it will be filed. I have not heard from him to set up a time for our big getting it done talk next week.
Hi One
I don't know enough about poker to know what a winning hand is, but I like that you are collecting 4s instead of holding out for a royal flush. I think it shows what a stable, logical guy you are and how a win for you is a good solid play.
Stable and logical guy. I should just let that be, however...
It wasn’t poker - I was “playing” the card game Go Fish.
Me: Got any fours?
One: No, go fish.
Maybe you don’t know that game. I figured you’d think poker, realize the go fish game play, humorous juxtaposition, laughter ensues, and a humorous comeback from OneArt. Oh well, I guess I can’t hit a homerun every post.
You are correct - I do appreciate good solid game play.
DnJ
DnJ, I rather figured you meant fish, but there is no challenge in how one plays the cards in fish, so it didn't work as well for my metaphor. I still like the idea of a guy who shoots for 4s and knows how to fix stuff.
I don't usually talk about this kind of stuff, but in case it is helpful to anyone out there in terms of a healing timeline. I seem to be over my hide from the world and heal stage and have entered a go out there and do stuff stage. I used to do public interest work, mainly for the homeless and those about to be homeless. Then I had a kids, their activities, work, houses to run, an unhelpful husband, etc. I have re-entered that world from the pro bono side to help immigrants facing removal hearings and victims of domestic violence obtain protective orders against their abusers. Two causes close to my heart, in that I am most interested in helping women and children with the impact that their domestic relations can have on their lives.
I've also started volunteering for things related to my son's activities. I never wanted to do this before and frequently felt judged by the mothers who did that sort of stuff. I'm not sure when it is that I finally just stopped caring about all that and saw particular niches that I had the skill set to fill.
My son's vehicle is now in our possession and I can tell it is love at first sight. He did an admirable job of driving it around in city traffic yesterday. I think parking mastery will take longer to come about. I too struggled to park that beast in my first foray with it and I have received many a compliment in the past (usually from older men oddly) about what a great driver and parker I am.
OD has been keeping in contact with S, finally expressing appropriate care, interest and concern for him, and S actually initiated a call to him late last night (after receiving a whiny text about his lack of communication), perhaps for the first time ever, (OD didn't answer but called him back) and they spoke for an hour. OD usually won't do anything on a work night, so that was an interesting development.
Despite his eagerness to get his divorce dismissed, he has not been as eager to set up the promised time this week to come and talk to me so that we can get "all of this resolved" so he can focus on "taking care of all of his elderly relatives" in whom he has never, ever shown any consideration or care. I just keep shaking my head and moving forward. One day at a time. Unfortunately for OD, in addition to my usual work and S schedule, I now have a lot more time commitments with my volunteer and pro bono activities, and he may not find my schedule quite so flexible moving forward.
About to book a trip to visit my lovely D and catch some of her performances on the other coast. Live is good.
Please start a new thread and link the two threads today. Thanks!
BTW, glad your son has his car. I hope you are able to book a flight to see your lovely D.