Previous thread --
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2793593#Post2793593Gordie asked me to write my faith story, and I have been thinking about how to do it -- and how to do it in a way that would not reveal too many details FRL. I am not sure this is going to be possible, but I will try to post some of my story in this thread as I go along.
But tonight I don't have time, as I am going out of town again! I was supposed to leave Fri but we extended our stay in the beautiful island, and then S13's cold turned ugly and D9's bug bitten leg swelled up like a potato. So we had to delay the next trip, to see my dad (91 years old but fit as a fiddle) and one of my best friends who is like an uncle to my kids in another beautiful place.
And in the mean time, I underwent another huge conversion. Last we heard from Gerda, she was sinking deep into the pit, the mire, the darkness. Today her circumstances are if anything, WEIRDER, but major graces came her way when she figured out how to trust God in this new chapter of her journey yet deeper into the cold dark sunless north.
Also because our trip was delayed, I had to be here with my H. Now this seemed unthinkable, unbearable, death-causing just a couple of days ago. First day was the one you read about in last thread, that was quicksand, and you all came to my rescue with ropes and other life saving devices. Second day I was barely reviving, but now on day three, a couple of masses and rosaries and talks with priests and revelations later, I am cheerful and chipper and confident and sure. That's some serious grace! Not that the waves don't wash over me at times,but overall I understand now that I do not have to be enslaved by bitterness, anger, fear, etc. I can keep being a light and in and of the light and stay close to God even if my H goes through with this, even if he never comes back, even if he tries to take everything from us. I can see now that he is the slave and the sad one, and that nothing he does can take away the joy I have in what God has made me and what he plans for me.
Once I had this faith, trust, courage, clarity, I was able to be in the house with him and not freak out. And incredibly, dude is acting the same as before he hired a lawyer who sent me a letter to announce the intention to "resolve this matter quickly and amicably." For example, he made steak yesterday and made me a plate with carefully cut slices. (I didn't sit at the table, pretended I was in the middle of something.) He sort of fixed the front door and talked about one or two other things that were issues in the house though still not doing much of anything about it. He looks weird and haunted at all times, but he sort of talks to me. And HE STILL ASKS ME FOR MONEY.
I have to go to sleep or I will never be able to do the drive tomorrow. My car also is unlikely to make it. But onward and upward, away from the dark tundra for a few days of warmth.
Gerda
Thank you for writing
Please do not feel pressured to share more than you wish
I would not want you to compromise your anonymity
So feel free not to write about it
Here is what I imagine
Maybe you grew up with religion or maybe not
Adulthood came and religion took a back seat or was not in the car at all
And then you had your bomb drop
And you started your own LBS journey
Questioning what you really believed
And spent time soul searching
And in that space God intervened directly or through a friend
And for the first time you really heard
And your world changed
Gordie, that is not it at all. I was Jewish and an atheist! It was all miracles and the voice of God.
O Gerda
That is why I asked
I had a feeling there was more than I imagined
He looks weird and haunted at all times, but he sort of talks to me. And HE STILL ASKS ME FOR MONEY.
Explain to me, why are you giving him money? And what is he spending it on?
I agree with a previous poster, you need legal advice, there's a possibility he may file for alimony/spousal support from you. Be careful about setting any financial precedents which could be looked at as an expectation during divorce..
Gerda, I'm sorry I missed you over the weekend. I'm glad our friends were around to help in your time of need. I'm also glad that you are doing better today.
In the time leading up to my Ws move she loosened up a little around the house. For my W, I think it was because before she decided to move she felt trapped with a bunch of built up pressure. Not sure why they feel that way, but its part of the MLC script. Once she decided to move, she had a PLAN. There was light at the end of the tunnel and some of that "pressure" was lifted. That allowed her to act a little more comfortable and nice. To me this seemed really weird because she seemed happier than she had in months and..and she was in the middle of splitting us up. I don't know for certain if that is actually the explanation for it, nor do I know if thats whats up with your H...but it sounds familiar. It will not make them feel better in the long run, but having a plan to alleviate your unhappiness can seem like a load off. There have been 2 major times that my W really seemed to want to fix things between us, only to revert back to unhappiness/MLC stuff after about a week. Later when I had asked her about it and what happened, she said that she felt like she had a plan and it all made sense at the time. Just food for thought...
Splitting up the family is never something that sounds like a good idea, but I think it would do you some good to live without H for a bit. It has taken me 2 months of my W being gone, but I am now starting to normalize/stabilize a little. I am still having some sown days here and there, but nothing compared to before. Your H having some time away may do good for him. Well, it will really be bad for him, but it might send him the direction he needs to go to come out of this. And remember Gerda, divorce is a piece of paper. It will definitely feel like more than that, but that is all it really is. Even if you do end up with a divorce, that does not mean that its the end of everything. I know you have read all over the forums about people getting set up for D but then never going through with it. And then other stories about people getting a D and then remarrying later. If it comes to D, which it may not, that doesn't necessarily mean anything so just keep thinking about you and the kiddos and keep him out of your thoughts for now. What will be will be...and you will be ok.
((Big hugs))
Well said sjohns6.
According to my W, her plan was well calculated and thought out. I really believe she saw it as a light at the end of the tunnel, an end to her pain.
Gerda, I hope you and your kids are doing well.
You have received much advice and suggestions from many caring people. I know it will take some time to mull it over.
Do take care. Will talk soon.
(((Hugs)))
Thank you so much, sjohn and dnj. sjohn, you are right, that does sound familiar, and I really appreciate your words about what is and isn't final and totally agree with you. His politeness may also just be part of his odd eastern philosophy-influenced floating ideas that he just doing what he needs to do to self-actualize even while he loves everyone in the world. In between I know he is saying a lot of weird stuff to my kids about me and our finances, but I have also noticed that, at least with my son, they can see through most of that and it just makes them think he is crazy rather than turning against me.
My H has no income at all for at least the next month, and after that barely enough to live on, so I do not see him leaving anytime soon. I think he is planning to stay in our house through all of this. I don't think he understands how long a splitting of assets would take or that there is no way for me to buy him out of our house except through selling it. Going through the process may be the only way he will be able to see it -- but it might also only make him more angry at me for blocking him from the life he wants. It is a rock and hard place as far as that is concerned. I would actually like to give him the full freedom he desires by funding his departure and appearing to give way on those desires but I just don't have a way to do that. And therefore I am going to wait on God to figure that one out and not try to figure it out here or in my own mind.
My S has totally changed and is no longer rageful at me, he is talking to me all the time and very loving but is now facing the reality of what is happening and his feelings so he is deeply depressed. Also told me he never wants to see his father again and doesn't want to return home (we are at a friend's right now). He did finally agree to go to therapy.
I trust God and his plan for me and know he has something in mind that I can't fathom. I am already realizing the grace of some patterns in what has happened to me in the last 5 years that prepared me to handle this without fear. I am able to support and protect my kids and I am not worried about any of the things KML and others have posted about as far as D; I am way more afraid of the slavery of being driven by anger or fear -- and of my children witnessing that as I had to witness my mother doing that in her D -- as I choose my actions in the days to come. I have courage and I will keep walking in faith. In fact I am thinking sometimes that posting here is pulling my energy into the wrong direction but I do love having those friends here who understand not only MLC but also seem to understand and support my vision for my life with my kids.
I accept that a D would end with me losing a lot. I will still have enough for me and my kids but I will no longer have my house/business anymore, there is no way around that. I have read about how it works in my state, it is not going to be hunky dory for me. I accept that, will do what I can without getting angry/bitter/fearful.
sjohn, if you remember our discussion about women needing financial security and what I have said about the joy of feeling taken care of by a man -- well, that is my cross right now, I have the opposite of that and have for many years. I accepted the rejection long ago and I accepted the injustice and difficulty of having to provide materially for everything myself. It is hard to now have to give up still more. But far worse is the slavery of fear and anger, so I look forward to whatever God has in store for me.
Love to all.
Gerda
It took my w going through the d process before she would admit to its consequences
That we would not be best friends and it would affect the kids and we would both have less money
I thought this was obvious but it was not to her and she had to see it for herself
Re women and money
Your comments make me think about w
She was a sahm and I made the money
She never wanted for anything
But in her mind she came to see this as imprisonment
She did not want to be dependent on me
Just seems that a person in crisis can see any situation as bad
Gerda,
Your h may not have a bit of money, but if he really wants to leave, he will find a way to do so. If the urge is strong enough, he will do so and I wouldn't be surprised if he saw a lawyer and requested alimony. When people are desperate, they do desperate things and do not think rationally.
I would continue as you have been, i.e., listen, validate and keep an eye on your assets, etc.
Gerda, I know what you mean about your financial situation. H has not been providing you with a crucial element that is needed by you to feel secure in a relationship. Don't dismiss the other piece though. You also need to feel supported emotionally, which you also are not getting. The 2 main factors you need out of a relationship are not being met. I think its easier for you to dismiss the emotional aspect, but the financial one is something that you have to physically make up for. Its something that you can't dismiss as bad behavior because you have to make up for it. We are all experiencing it differently, but in the LBS camp, none of our needs are being met.
I'm also sorry to hear about your Ds conversation with H. I know you felt like you did the wrong thing, but don't beat yourself up over it. Just learn from it. You are a woman of integrity and that is why you feel bad about how you handled it. That is great!! Just use that to learn how you would rather have handled yourself and do that next time. You got this, girl!!
I get emails from random self help sites that I've visited. I got one today regarding healing from infidelity. I thought it had some really great points in it that helped me to read, so I want to share them with you. It isn't that I feel like I am needing to heal from infidelity today, the points just really spoke to me, so I hope they help you too. Here they are:
1. Self blame is exhausting, because there is nothing faulty in you that caused your partner's infidelity. If you are endlessly looking for that fault, you will never find what you are looking for.
2. After infidelity, anger toward the self rises due to the thought that one could have done something to prevent the infidelity - and yet did nothing.
3. Believing you can control the outcome of someone else’s behavior by modifying your own, leads the victim of infidelity to hyper-vigilance.
4. It is NOT your failure to predict the outcome of someone else’s choice that has left you victimized. The failure is not yours to shoulder.
5. If you blame yourself for someone else’s actions, making yourself the one responsible, there is no incentive for that person to make any changes themselves, because they can always dump the blame on you - and you’ll more than likely take it.
6. Your spouses infidelity is not a reflection of your inadequacy, but a reflection of theirs.
7. If someone continually asks for the benefit of the doubt and consistently delivers doubt, eventually one will begin to doubt their benefit!
8. The unfaithful spouse's right to privacy does not trump the betrayed spouse's right to truthfulness
Sjohns6, thank you for posting this! Number 6 speaks to me especially, today. When I first read #3, though, I thought, isn't that what we are trying to do here? I guess that means I need to GAL some more. It's so hard when all I want is for my marriage to improve. So much anger right now.
Regarding your statement that you will lose much in D, while this may be true, you will also gain lots of other (unknown) things. A whole new world will open to you. The grass is greener where we water it. And then when we see the garden growing we're even more motivated to nurture it.
I know you work hard. This is completely unsolicited advice so do with it what you want, However, if you foresee that this business is going away, one thing I might suggest is that you consider ways of transitioning out of those various patched together jobs for something more stable that will eventually offer you more intellectual stimulation. You are clearly bright.
Perhaps call a temp agency and start there. Or are there people with whom you can network? Don't underestimate how much you can grow. My ex kept telling me no one would ever hire me as I'd been a stay at home mom for so long. Truth be told, I was scared to re-enter the workplace. I was worried about my age, the length of time I stayed home, the rubbish he was filling my head with, etc.
Long story short, I started temping with a company. I went back to doing what I did 20 years ago. I worked hard and was transitioned into a new department--completely different role. I was promoted and now am heading up a brand new product launch all by my lonesome! Recently my boss told me they have their eye on me for another higher level role and said he'll pay for me to take night classes for training!
Several employers have told me they would MUCH rather hire moms re-entering the workplace than millenials. I was told women our age have more grit, less ego and are just doers. And time and again I've seen this. I've been astounded by how many young employees won't do work that is not in their job description. Not sure if it's laziness, arrogance or a bit of both.
After juggling all that you do, working in a more stable environment would be a walk in the park for you. It would give you more interesting goals to work toward.
After "managing" with an ex who thought I was trying to shoot and poison him, work was a breathe of fresh air! It now takes a lot to ruffle my feathers, After dealing with your sitch, I think you'll find the same.
Don't underestimate your own worth and potential. This is a great time to be our age in this country.
Hawho, thank you for taking the time to write such a caring and wise reply. I also really liked that you thought I was bright! : )
I have not mentioned what I do for a living here because of trying to stay anonymous but I am paid well for work at a very high level because of my advanced degrees and extensive experience in that field. I do consulting work at three universities as an adjunct and I do creative work that I won't mention here. I have only been a SAHM while working consultant jobs and while we had a very public and community-oriented biz for 15 years with my H -- I ran that by myself, dealing with a million bucks a year in gross (and almost a million in expenses, sadly) and now I run our rental biz in addition to all my other work. I like to have a flexible schedule to be there for my kids and for the creative work I can't explain in detail here. But the trade-off is that I don't make that much, even though my hourly rate is quite high.
And I have been the sole support for my kids for some years now. Before that my H did work hard and we did everything together and shared all income and expenses and accounts and were never apart. But of course we ladies are often working doubly hard since after work we have to do everything at home!
i did apply for a full-time job in my field last year and didn't find anything; I was relieved because i did not want to give up my creative work, though it only brings in a small amount per year. I will work full-time if I have to. But if I can squeak by, ffor now I want to keep the door open for my creative work and I have all my teaching work in place, including teaching at a prison next semester, which I am especially looking forward to. I have thought a lot about what I would do if I didn't have to worry about any of this, and I still feel like I like my creative work in this city enough to want to stay and do what I am doing.
My H has had moments of severe wack-a-doo crazy but maybe not as deep as yours, he thought I was doing a lot of awful things to create his bad life but never thought I was killing him! It is so painful to live with someone with mental illness and so hard to understand how they can be trapped in there, I know you have really been through the ringer. Right now my H is being very friendly and trying to eat dinner together though he has retained a lawyer, it is so weird. A friend mentioned involutional psychosis the other day, I looked it up and it was basically midlife crisis times ten -- especially in my case, it seems accurate because the diagnosis mentions that the person suffering from that did not display any symptoms of it until late in life.
Anyway, thank you so very much for taking the time to think about me and offer me your wisdom and light.
I have thought a lot about what I would do if I didn't have to worry about any of this, and I still feel like I like my creative work in this city enough to want to stay and do what I am doing.
Now that is Gerda!
Do that for you.
sjohn, I keep reading these and trying to let 'em sink in. Thank you so much for all the encouragement. I have so many thoughts when I read your posts but then I get overwhelmed by everything and end up not replying at all. But rest assured that I read them over many times and they are a great comfort.
DnJ, thank you also for the encouragement. I feel that you are right but I am so limited by circumstances beyond my control that I never know if I am doing the right thing. I can't tell if this house is enslaving me or if I should keep trying to hold on to it for the sake of me and my kids. The thought of trying to make a life here without this house is so daunting. It is a very expensive place to live, and we already have this amazing place, but the debts are clawing at me because it has been so long since I had a normal income or a spouse who contributed.
I should not be posting right now as I am feeling a bit low from last night's incident, which I posted on your thread.
Journaling, I guess is what we call this --
Something I am struggling with lately is my son's unwillingness to eat food that I make. He constantly wants "outside food," and rejects everything he used to like to eat. I think his appetite issues are exacerbated by his anxiety but he won't listen to reason except in those moments when he is letting his guard down. For a couple of weeks, we were doing amazingly but now he seems to be drifting back into anger at me. He started hanging out with friends again a little and I think this is part of it. He is constantly talking about how weird and embarrassing we are, but it's not in a regular teen way, it's sort of pathological. In between sometimes he lets his guard down and shows me some love, but it's like all the gains we made are slipping.
The one thing I always had was my ability to prepare good and nourishing food for my family. I am not a world-class cook but I am good at making things homey and comforting. As my H drifted away and started taking on all sorts of crazy eating habits, I tried to adapt to that and make new things but mostly he was so angry and living his own life that he started to cook for himself and would get angry about my cooking too. Sometimes he swings back into having family meals but extremely inconsistently and always with huge bitterness lurking underneath about whatever I am doing wrong. When he is out of money, he will eat my food but mostly with such resentment that I can take no pleasure in that.
And of course now that he got a D lawyer, I am totally flummoxed as to how to act/behave. I don't offer him food or ask if he will be eating with us or anything, but sometimes he offers me food and I don't know what to do. Usually it's just on the table and no one is eating together. It's all such a sad scene!
Then my D is a bit portly and constantly wants to eat so that is a problem on the other side. I am very sensitive to the problems girls can have around food and try not to make a big deal out of it either way with her, but we struggle because I try to keep things a little healthy and to stick to meal and snack times. But our imperfect food relationship is made shaky by my H constantly commenting on what she should eat even when she is eating, but then after buying her sweets every time they hang out. And then usually it's just me and my D eating dinner alone, so instead of counting my blessings, I notice how sad it is that our family is so broken. I try not to show this to her of course, but I am sure I am not as cheerful as I should be.
Recently we had the reading about Elijah being nourished by the angel after total collapse so that he would have the strength to do God's will. I always asked God to do this for me, sometimes I am begging Him! But this week when I read that passage, the image of my son refusing my food flashed into my mind and I saw it in a different way, understanding how God feels when we won't allow ourselves to be nourished by Him. It's so painful to know that I could at least feed my son well but that he won't let me. I feel so sad and powerless.
My S is also obsessed with brand name clothes that I can't buy for him. So I can't even buy him some back-to-school clothes because he won't wear anything I could afford. I keep trying to give him his own autonomy wherever I can, so I gave him $200 to buy clothes and I think it covered 2 t-shirts and a pair of pants!
I guess what I mean is that in some ways, being so limited in my ability to SHOW love is more painful than all the ways that I am not receiving any (as per sJohn's post above). I need to make a change and break these cycles a little but it seems to all come down to money that I don't have. Though I guess even if I had tons of money, not eating as a family is always going to make things head south.
@notavic - you are welcome! Yeah, #3 is one of those "fake it till you make it" type of things. I think we all pretty much start out adjusting our behavior to influence our spouses, knowing full well that we shouldn't be doing it for that reason. Then, after some amount of time, our reasoning for changing shifts to be more about us. It's an ongoing effort.
Gerda, I know what you mean about replies. I have found that the posts that make me think the most are often the hardest to reply to, whether I agree with them or not. Those lines (above) helped me at the time so I wanted to share.
I read through your back and forth with DnJ on his thread. Imagining your H in short shorts (despite not knowing what he looks like) gave me a laugh. I really loved reading that back and forth between you guys. DnJ can sure tell a story. If he wrote a book I'd buy it in a heartbeat!!
What you describe about mealtime and cooking I can totally relate to. Not in the same way, but this mess has affected meals for me too. I miss the family togetherness of mealtime on a regular basis. I can cook, and I do it well. Having said that, W was always the meal planner and cook. She went to the grocery store and planned the meals. I would sometimes too, but that was one of the things she did on a daily basis. She cooked variety. We did not always eat at the dinning room table, but we always ate together. Sometimes we would take turns reading poetry. We all liked Where the Sidewalk Ends and would pass the book around each reading one of our favorites from it. I realize that I am not as creative at cooking. I end up cooking meals that wife used to cook. They turn out well, but I don't introduce much variety. I also find that when I get home from work, I need to start dinner immediately without unwinding first or else dinner will be ready very late. I realize now that W would have to do that too and she never complained...and I never appreciated that about her day. I cooked too (sometimes) so I never considered the stress of feeding the family on a daily basis. Now, if the kids aren't there I either eat leftovers or don't eat at all. I figure this is something that I'll get a handle on a little better as time progresses.
Regarding your S, why does he not eat with you? I know you said he wants outside food, but why? I get why H isn't eating with you guys. He is going through MLC so there's no telling his reaction to an invitation for dinner and it probably isn't worth your time. But I would think that S, regardless of being a teenager, would still eat your food. lol...I say that but my S is 14 almost 15 and there are things he won't eat too. I make him, though
Hope your day is going well today, Gerda. I see others doing this ((( ))) around a name and sometimes by itself. Does that mean hugs? if so, (((Gerda)))
Gerda,
There is no rhyme or reason when children grow into teenagers. They become mini MLCers who are experimenting w/life and trying all sorts of new things. They are testing their parents and their boundaries. They want their freedom to pick and choose and sometimes that comes down to the people they associate with as well as what they eat and where they it.
About the clothes...he's at that age when he's starting to see what the others are wearing and wants to be like them. This is peer pressure in the sense that they all want the same things that others have. My sister went through that w/both of her kids. If the kids don't dress somewhat like the others, they got bullied. Again...peer pressure. It's not easy raising kids today in this society of easy come, easy go and let's all have the same things, no matter the price.
When he learns to be more comfortable in his own skin, the son you knew will be back...I would suggest that you listen and observe and try not to put any pressure on him...he's just teething and learning about himself. I know, it's frustrating when you are dealing w/two of them who are teething. If your son is allowed to do his teething, he will be much stronger for the time to grow.
Gerda - job is soooo right. Teens will test you. Reasoning with them, limited success - let them come to you.
If I recall son is 13. And now he doesn’t like your cooking. So, let him make a few suppers a week. It will give him some experience in the kitchen. He can’t complaint about a meal he prepared. Well he can but not at you.
He might even ask for help, or might not, either way offer it gently - he will want the help, just not want to have to admit it.
sjohns6 - yep (((hugs))).
Oh gosh, DnJ, you have no idea what he is like. His old self would fry an egg, and even fry one for his sister. His current MLC-inspired self is just a total monster, yelling at me to come and clean his room, bring him food, which he then rejects, etc. I am constantly walking the tightrope of trying to set boundaries and not allow disrespect and also provide unconditional love. It's kind like walking through a nest of snakes in a dark room with a blindfold and a bag of mosquitos attached to my arm. I know I have to keep going through it but I sure don't know what I am doing and it's not fun.
But then at night, he is my beloved boy again.
He was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder this spring. It's like a teen times ten. Was shopping lifting and running the streets in our huge city, but I just kept trying to make home a safe place and to always cook the things he liked. Then I bought him the PS4. But then when something clicks for him, usually at night, he is the most wonderful boy ever, tells me his true thoughts and feelings, his sorrow and fear of death and worry that I will die -- he says desperately, "You can never, never die," -- and so handsome, smart, funny, telling me he wants me to have a good life, and when he is rich he will buy me a cottage by the sea...
I have been keeping journals for both of my kids since they were born. My son of course got much more written, I recorded everything he did over the years and told him all my thoughts and hopes and love for him. My daughter's is a little more thin because I had less time for that once I had two -- and then MLC happened. Well, I thought I had lost my son's journal and it was KILLING me. I couldn't accept the loss of such a special thing.
Last week I decided to simplify my life and have been trying to clean out everything and get rid of stuff. And I found his journal. I literally sobbed with joy. So last night I wrote in it again. I only wrote once last year and before that it was several years since I had written. MLC stole that too. But I am back in business!
Well, here is my son demanding food so I will sign off.
Oh Gerda, I am sorry you are going through a tough time with your S. It's such a confusing time for everyone.
All you can do is continue to be the loving and supportive Mum as you have been and hope that this will pass. I know D went through a terrible summer last year. She withdrew from all her friends and became very depressed. She is so much better now although she still has her down days.
I am so glad you managed to find your S's journal. I admire that you have written the journals since they were born. What a lovely record of their lives to pass on to them.
(((Gerda)))
Snakes, blindfold, darkness, and mosquitoes. Lol. Very descriptive.
Your lad has had a tough time of this. I do think he has been influenced by H’s behaviour. Keep being a good and better role model for him; he will be influenced and he will follow.
Just a little food for thought here: Setting boundaries and not allowing disrespectful behaviour is unconditional love.
Parenting is hard. Kids need guidance. They have to learn from someone and you know H is not up to the task.
Kids need and want boundaries. They will run at them to see if they hold. There are lots of reasons why. Kids want to see that you still love them even after they defy you - they have to leave the nest eventually and need that unconditional love.
A boundary is also an expectation of them. They need expectations. When they meet expectations from their authority figure / parent, they feel better about themselves with pride and a sense of accomplishment. They learn to meet goals. They get positive interaction. They know they look good in your eyes.
I am happy you found the journal. That is a precious keepsake.
Take care Gerda
DnJ
So glad you found that journal
O d d is a serious diagnosis
So hard to deal with in the best of times
And even harder without a spouse to help
Sometimes having the in house MLC spouse is even lonelier
ALERT ALERT -- All my guy friends out here in DB forum land, I need your advice!
My S was kind of awful today, just asking me to fetch things for him every time he saw me, and when I asked if he wanted to go for a dog walk just now though it was 1 am, he just told me to get him a slice of pizza. I was so angry, said something really childish, left the house and then realized I had to move the car, crying at my lot in life, talked to God as I walked the dog and even got angry at the dog. Got the pizza and wrote my S a text that his pizza was on the table and I didn't want to talk. So he writes back that he would go out for the day tomorrow and I wouldn't have to see him. I was writing back a loving note about loving to see him when he walks into my room and lies on my bed and starts talking about how horrible he feels for his dad. He said to me he just feels so horrible for him because he is is always asking S to do things with him and S "just doesn't want to be part of the family right now," but he feels so bad because H has no life and no money and just hates his life.
I was so mad inside that my H gets all the sympathy from my kids and I am worked to the bone with no support of any kind but I tried to put on my listening hat and not say too much. I could see that my poor S is just so twisted up by this MLC madness, so I tried to explain again about mental illness and how H can't see clearly right now but that it's his choice to have no life and no money and it's not S's fault nor responsibility. S kept asking me why I can't tell H that he is depressed and needs help. Then S kept repeating the same thing about the reasons he feels so bad for H and THEN HE ASKED ME TO PLEASE TELL PAPA ALL THESE THINGS HE WAS SAYING. I started out with an explosive WHAT?! And then I tried again to actively listen. I said, "So you want me to tell Papa that. Why do you want me to tell Papa that?" But he couldn't really explain. He looked so lost and dreadful. I kept saying, Don't you think you would want to have a dad you could hang out with and be close to? If you don't want to be with your dad, it's not your fault! And I tried to talk about how I was the same with my mom, and always felt guilty but that as I grew older I realized it was no my fault, she had hurt me so much that I had to protect myself. But I couldn't tell if he was listening.
Remember a few weeks ago after my H basically BD's my S, S told me he never wanted to see his dad again and all that? Well I admit that I felt vindicated by that and was so happy to be "chosen," by my S, even though I didn't ever say anything about that or talk against my H or anything -- precisely the opposite, I said he would always be his dad and that one day they would work it uout. I am just admitting to you that I had those feelings. And that tonight I felt this weird so of jealousy or fear that my S would go back into the Camp of Insanity with my H. But I kept just trying to listen and mirror what my S was saying.
Finally at the end S thanked me for talking to him about it and said he would just try to live a busy life and not think about it!
So listen, DnJ, Gordie, SBJ and sjohn,and any other guys out there who want to weigh in -- I feel totally out of my element. I need the masculine take on what the heck I should say/do about this -- and I sure don't want to tell my H but I also imagine that my S will change his mind about that in the daylight. At night he really lets his guard down, I think because of my years of attachment parenting, co-sleeping and nursing making nighttime the time of deep trust and comfort.
Thanks, Gordie -- I think it's not real ODD. I think it's circumstances, as it started when my H started his MLC (and abandoned his formerly very beloved S), and that if MLC would fade away, so would ODD. He is going to a special school this fall and I hope it will help. He has been a lot better since that BD of a few weeks ago, but I just posted about some confusion this evening. But yes, it has been hell and very hard to deal with all alone.
Thank you, Coly, for the warm reply. I love to hear from you and it means so much that you are following my sitch and thinking of me.
What did you do to help your D? I also have a D9 but she is very different from my S and handles it all very differently. Also she is only 9. But I sometimes wonder if all the stress brought on the early puberty she is going through.
DnJ,thanks as ever, for your wisdom. I love to read your advice and truly take it to heart.
I have found that all my strong parenting has been eroded by the past few years. As a teacher, I worked with the most at-risk youth possible, I was a tough but loving cookie and always knew just what to do/say. But with my own S, I slowly lost all feelings of authority. Expectations and rules became almost meaningless as he spiraled into a mirror of my H's MLC from the time he was 8 years old. Before that, he was such a beautiful boy, such a bright light, not an angel but pretty close. The only thing I didn't try through the spiral was violence, but eventually we even hit that point a few times and then I said that nothing was worth that. Getting the ODD diagnosis was actually a comfort -- when I read about it, I realized that it wasn't in my mind that my S didn't care what I said or thought or did or didn't care about consequences. We are in a better place now but he skipped over some parts of childhood and it's hard to find a new footing as mom.
He is hurting so much, I can't stand it sometimes. He is on a cross not of his own making. I can hang on mine as long as God wants but I have trouble watching my son up there, it's one of the only impediments to faith in my life.
I want to do just what you say but I honestly don't know how half the time. I know it might be easier if H weren't here.
Anyway, I am hoping that even though you have weighed in more than I deserve you will advise me again on the post I just made. Being around two depressed people in one house is really suffocating at times, but one of them, my S, I have always been able to comfort, nurture, help, and now it seems I don't know how.
Thank you so much for all, DnJ.
P.S. My son wanted to talk and talk some more. Finally got him to sleep by reading to him. Talked about how terrible our life is. I told him that our life is pretty good except for the one thing. He asked if H would ever come out of it. I said I wasn't sure but that we could have a good life either way. He didn't believe me. He said he feels horrible that my life is bad, and I realized he is just so worried about both of his parents. Poor boy. I guess I don't show as strong a face as I should. Told me he thinks a lot about dying and hates being alone in the house -- he said he likes to do his own thing, play his video games, etc., but that I would be nearby. I have been avoiding being in the house sometimes because of H and because my S is so demanding, I end up doing work in a cafe to leave here, had no idea he wanted me around!
I know some of that death talk is normal teen stuff but gosh it is scary to hear and hard to know what to do to help him. (He said he has no plan to kill himself and wouldn't do that. He said he would go to therapy and I have to keep trying to get him to do that, at night he is so different and then in the day he refuses to do the things we talked about at night.) I realized I have to really be a light to him and not make him worry about me. I started talking really positively about my life and about what his life will be and it seemed to help. I guess I really need to make sure I am never sad or moping around him. Have to let him see my light and not ever make him feel responsible for my loneliness or happiness. I feel so bad at how mad I got earlier, it really affects him. I have to remember that and not allow myself to show that to him, it is too much for him right now.
Sorry for so many posts and such long ones, what a night!
If any of you guys do write back with tips for me about this, can you write as if you are writing to my S? What you would say to him if you got the chance to meet him to talk to him about this? It will help me to really understand what to say if you phrase it as you would phrase it to him, man to man. Not that I can be man to man, but I need the insight.
Good morning Gerda
Sounds like a tough night.
I will post my ideas to you. I have about a 14 hour day to get through first. Darn work. It really crimps my lifestyle. Ha ha.
I am glad you find some value from my input.
I like discussing and exchanging ideas with you, it’s what friends do. And Gerda we are friends.
(((Gerda)))
Hang in there
Gerda,
Are you and your children in counseling or some type of support group? I'm not asking this to offend you, but the impression that I am getting is that you and your children need someone to talk to outside of the family circle. Your son may need to talk to someone "safe" other than you.
I'm very concerned about you and your son. You haven't mentioned too much about your daughter and her behavior in all of this.
Thank you, DnJ! And thanks for leaving a pre-response to your response, you knew I would wake up and check!
Right now I feel that it would be better for the kids if H left for a while. I realized last night how the agony of living with a depressed person is of course agony for them too.
But he has no money to leave and nowhere to go. The only way he can leave is if we split assets and I sell the house and give him his equity. I don't want to do this but even if I decided I have to do it for my children to have peace, it would take many many months to do it. I would never get approved for an apartment to rent because my income is so low, I couldn't even find a place myself to live with them in the meantime. So I keep thinking that this knot is so hard to untie that only God can do it.
If only my H could see that he has to put on a brave face for the kids, even if he hates his life. I am wondering if I should try to tell him this. I think it would have to be an e-mail. And maybe better in writing in case of D.
Thanks again for the words and the affirmation of friendship. Really the friendship, and the affirmation of it -- that's the most important thing any of us can offer here, but we don't always think to say that in our rush to advise each other on paths out of suffering.
I hope you have a FRUITFUL workday too.
Gerda,
If you post a long drawn out posting to him, it will go right over his head and he will pick and choose the words from the posting that he wants to zero in on and will take offense. You want him to be receptive and willing to listen to what you have to say.
Let me ask you this....does he respond in a more positive way when you speak to him or in writing? Here's a thought, why not sit down with him over a cup of coffee or tea or whatever and just talk to him about the children and how they are doing? He might be more apt to listen if you talk about them. As him his thoughts on how best to deal with any issues with the children at this time. One word of caution, use the "I" word and not the "you" word. If you use the "you" word, he will automatically put up his walls and think you are pointing fingers at him.
Just my two cents.
Thank you, Job, for weighing in. I so appreciate it!
You are talking about posting to my H? You mean e-mailing?
I have become so afraid of conversations with him, that your idea gives me a bit of dread. But also the thing is that about the children my H is equally out of his mind. He has crazy ideas and theories about what they are thinking and what is good for them, most of which revolve around me doing everything wrong and controlling everything and running the household poorly, etc. So a conversation will just be more of that and I don't know how useful that is.
But as you say, it's a rock and a hard place.
Maybe if my S really does still want me to tell my H how he feels, i can just say that as succinctly as possible and without any recommendations and let him realize it or not realize it. I know that if he could realize what he is doing to us, I wouldn't have to be on this board to begin with!
Yes, I mean an email.
I know you dread speaking to him, so try writing an email, but try to refrain as much as possible using the word "you". I have found that when you use the word "you", they get bent out of shape and very defensive. If you can keep the email general and not pointed, he may just get it. Also, keep it short because they can't handle a lengthy one.
If you want to draft something up and post a general response and send it via the report button, I would be happy to review it and give you generalized comments here...
Hello Gerda
How are you and kids doing today? Have thing settled a bit?
In my opinion children need expectations, something to achieve, something that lets them know they are on the correct path. When expectations are meet there should be praise. To go along with this, defiant behaviour and such needs effective consequences to provide the required guidance to help them find their way back to the right path.
Stability and consistency is a must from their parent(s). If the rules or expectations keep changing every couple of days how can they possible figure out what to do.
That is my general overview of parenting, so you know where I am coming from. You asked for some specific advice / suggestions, so I will give some.
You hit on a lot of topics, I’ll do my best.
He said to me he just feels so horrible for him because he is is always asking S to do things with him and S "just doesn't want to be part of the family right now," but he feels so bad because H has no life and no money and just hates his life.
...
Then S kept repeating the same thing about the reasons he feels so bad for H and THEN HE ASKED ME TO PLEASE TELL PAPA ALL THESE THINGS HE WAS SAYING. I started out with an explosive WHAT?! And then I tried again to actively listen. I said, "So you want me to tell Papa that. Why do you want me to tell Papa that?" But he couldn't really explain. He looked so lost and dreadful.
Son is sharing his feelings and you need to validate them. I understand how you feel son. I feel the same way towards Dad. These feelings are perfectly normal and you can always talk to me about anything.
Son kept repeating because he is not getting whatever it is he needs. He needs to know that Dad knows that son loves and cares about him. Son is guilty for feeling like he does. Reassure him that his feelings are normal.
He is also missing the love from his Dad. You can and need to fill in the gap. Be the best Mom possible. If you’re ok, he will be ok.
As for telling H. What son needs (IMO) is to be assured that Dad know about son’s feelings. So tell him that. Dad knows you love him. Don’t worry son, Dad is having trouble expressing his feelings, he is mixed up. Deep inside he still loves you.
I was so mad inside that my H gets all the sympathy from my kids and I am worked to the bone with no support of any kind but I tried to put on my listening hat and not say too much.
Ok understandable reaction. When you get mad like that, emotionally highjacked, it takes about 30 minutes to return to normal after you have worked through the mad feelings. During this time logical thought is out the window, things are not clear, and thinking is confused. Not the best time to make decisions, have discussions, and definitely not a good time to sign something.
Also when emotionally highjacked listening skills diminish greatly. A person just can’t listen to another point of view when they are all stirred up (just like our spouse’s). Best to just wait until you reset.
Step back for a while until “you” return. I get that you sometimes cannot physically step away, but limit conversing, things will be said that you would not say normally say.
I was so angry, said something really childish
Now don’t worry nothing is irreparable, just get up and dust yourself off. Next time look for when your emotions are getting the better of you - you know what to do.
This is an emotional time and it is difficult. A few weeks after BD I said something to S19 I deeply regret, the hurt that was in his eyes, it brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. I apologized and explained what I was feeling. He understood, but was still hurt. Lesson learn!
Remember a few weeks ago after my H basically BD's my S, S told me he never wanted to see his dad again and all that? Well I admit that I felt vindicated by that and was so happy to be "chosen," by my S...
And that tonight I felt this weird so of jealousy or fear that my S would go back into the Camp of Insanity with my H.
Vindication, happy to be chosen, and jealousy - yep all normal.
Of course you are happy that S wants to be with you, and it is very hard to watch S wanting to be with H. Son wants both of you, he really doesn’t want to choose. You being the sane and strong parent he will push against you not Dad. He can’t risk having Dad leave him, he knows you won’t leave. That is a very good thing, it still hurts like crazy.
This too will get better. Kids will eventually see who is really there for them and respond accordingly.
I want to do just what you say but I honestly don't know how half the time. I know it might be easier if H weren't here.
There may be more truth in that statement than you realize.
Honestly don’t know how half the time - So for half the time you do know how. Perception. Look at it differently.
It may indeed be easier if H weren’t there, and for what it is worth I am sure it would be. However he is there, it is more difficult, but got to keep moving.
My son wanted to talk and talk some more. Finally got him to sleep by reading to him. Talked about how terrible our life is. I told him that our life is pretty good except for the one thing. He asked if H would ever come out of it. I said I wasn't sure but that we could have a good life either way.
Things ended well for the night. Good job.
I did change your quote just a bit. What to do think? Focus on you and kids.
Gerda
As for the masculine take on things. The man to man talk. The male point of view. The insight you seek.
I am not completely sure what you are looking for. I am thinking you are wondering what a male role model would say to son. I did write a letter for your son, as if I was sitting with him, giving him advice. I am open, honest, and sincere - I also do not know if I should post it. Another lesson from 50 years of life - think twice before you leap. Hense the delay in my response.
Before I stray too far into territory that can get people wound up. There are differences between men and women. However, people are not limited or defined by gender stereotypes or average behaviours, anyone can be more. I am not trying to offend anyone.
My aforementioned letter is basically an attempt at connection with son to illustrate where he is and to open his mind to the possible paths he can take. Some fatherly advice like I have given my boys and girl, and others.
I have a daughter without a Mother figure and I am not really sure who her female role model is, if she even has one. I think you see yourself in a similar situation.
So what I have learned. Fatherly advice, motherly advice - it is all parental advice. It may have a different slant from a man or women - the message can still be the same and just as well received.
I have much more I could share - imagine that. However I haven’t cut my grass in two weeks, and today it is not raining. So I best get to it.
DnJ, I just wanted to tell you that I am reading your posts many times over. Things are so awful here and I am just shut up in my room crying my eyes out and trying to go over what you said in these two posts. So I logged back on to read them again. I am very low so I can't post right now but I wanted to thank you and let you know that a lonely lost Gerda is peering through the dark at the light you left on for me. Thank you.
Job, I didn't see your post about counseling before. I will answer soon. Short answer is that we had a little bit of ineffective counseling. My son refuses to do much, he ran away from an evaluation even, but his new school has therapy built in. My D and I lean on the church and church community but my S won't go. We definitely need help but I can't get him to do it. But I will explain more later.
Gerda,
Your postings sound like it's really tense in your home w/your h there. All of you are walking on eggshells. Is there any way that you can get away for an hour or so each day and do something relaxing? It could be a walk, sitting in a café w/a cup of coffee or tea, a visit to a local art shop or even the library. Your children are old enough to go to some of these places and enjoy a little bit of time away.
No need to explain about therapy...I wanted to make sure you had a support system in place. Your son may be more open to speaking to someone at school this year...but it will have to be a gradual thing since he's not happy about talking to anyone.
Hang in there!
Hi Gerda,
I’m not a religious person but I know you are, so I’m sending you a prayer for strength through this very testing and traumatic time, right now.
You are in my thoughts. I found going for a long walk whenever I could, talking to myself about what I was going through, was and still is my councillor.
I’ve walked a thousand miles in order to process my feelings and thoughts. Without those walks I truly think I would have gone mad.
(((Gerda)))
Gerda, I am sorry you are having such a horrible time right now.
I second job’s great suggestion of trying to get away from your situation for a while each day. You and kids are under a lot of stress - a break from it will be most benifical and deserved.
Praying for you.
Westo, that is really loving of you to offer a prayer when you are not yourself religious! That is really kind of you. Your friendship means so much, thank you!
Job and DnJ, your caring is so wonderful, thank you for helping me to not feel alone! I read your posts many times over and they really helped.
Job, I also really appreciate your understanding that my S can only come gradually to therapy. Everyone IRL is constantly hounding me to get him to go to therapy and don't understand that I cannot pick up a 13 year old kid who is taller than me and a very street-wise city kid and just carry him there against his will.
Westo, Job and DnJ, I do spend time almost everyday in some of the ways you suggest. But you are right that I should be more purposeful about it and really use it as time to heal and strengthen so I can more peace for the return. I guess for standers we have to be conscious about building ourselves up in between rounds. Although according to DnJ's recent definition of standing, I am only standing sometimes. I am still oftentimes since BD 2 just surviving.
I think last night I really just lost it and the story of why is too long to tell but it was more about my S than my H. The stress of living in limbo, waiting for the next D letter, is getting to me, that is true. And it's eggshells in a way but also just the confusion of living with my H chatting with me and eating together at times, offering me half his salad while his D lawyer prepares the next letter, trying to be a light and not change who I am just because he is doing that, Last night there was a specific trajectory of awful that came after I went to a very beautiful mass. When I came home, all full of peace, and was hit hard with MLC and tween hatred and even my D being hateful, I spiraled. Then my S refused to come on a trip we had planned all summer, leaving today to see friends in a very fancy wonderful beach place. They have three kids and I was just so dead set on all the kids being together and felt so tired of always ending up just being my D and I. I lost all perspective and just GRIEVED. Sometimes I forget everything I know through here and through faith and just spiral into a feeling of total helplessness. I I was in my room crying but at least I was crying out to God to send someone to help me because I was at the end of my rope with my S and my H. And then my best friend who is traveling overseas wrote to me just then to Skype. I realized that God was actually answering my prayer!
When I got back from the Skype, my S came to talk, telling me how much he loves me and explaining why he wouldn't come on the trip in a way that made sense, even if i was still sad. And he even said, "I just really want to have a good relationship with you." I had to pick my jaw up off the floor on that one.
Now my D and I are in the beautiful place with the friends, no S here but I am okay, it's good to be away of course, though being without my S always leaves a part of me worried. But he kept in touch via text all day so that is a huge improvement from days past.
Anyway, I feel like this post is extremely boring and I'm not wearing glasses so I can't even see what I am doing very well but I am doing okay and I want to thank you, DnJ and Job and Westo, for being there for me yesterday (and the day before and the days before that), it really really really helped me.
With lots of love,
Gerda
You sound much better today. Enjoy your time away with daughter. It is very nice that son is texting you.
Don’t worry if your post is boring. Boring is good, you have had enough drama in your life for a little while - embrace the mundane.
I'm glad you are feeling a bit better today. Enjoy the time you and your daughter are away. Use this time to dig deeper for patience and recharge your battery.
Thank you, as ever, for your very kind words, Job, and your encouragement. You always remind me that this is about patience.
DnJ, you need not fear that the life part is boring. I just meant I was writing boringly. You provide stiff competition in that regard. And/or maybe I am just so sick of hearing myself talk about this.
I am away again, visiting my dad at another beautiful place but with my brother and his W. Last year when we did this, I was getting ready to leave and my H asked to come with us. I said no. He had no money and said he couldn't survive the week but that also he realized he should come for many other reasons. I said I really needed the time away, he sort of begged me. I sat on the steps and prayed and I felt that God told me not to harden my heart so he came. We had a great time and he reconnected with my dad after not speaking with him for years. We had some beautiful family times and slept in the same bed though no affection of any kind. I think I held his hand while he was sleeping though. And he was great with my dad, he can talk to him for hours, while I get very very crazy in the head around family.
I thought it was the beginning of the Awakening.
And here we are again.
This morning my S refused to come on this trip. I dropped the rope and then I pulled the rope, I cried, I said he can't do this when all these people made these plans and my dad spent a lot of money on the rental house, I dropped the rope, I said goodbye, etc. My H even tried to get him to go and even offered to come for a night or two so I thought, oh, this is going to happen again, he will come and the kids can have a normal family time. But my S said no. I yelled at S that I wasn't going to keep leaving him money when he won't come on trips. Then I let something slip about how this would never keep happening if my S didn't see the example of someone else never coming on trips. Then my H offered a little diatribe on how he was finally standing up for himself or asserting his will or whatever it was, and that it was good for his kids to see that model. Mercifully I got myself together then and managed to only utter something about how our own wills are not very trustworthy, and that is why I prefer God's will.
Then I started to leave and my neighbor walked by and I burst into tears and snuffled embarrassingly on her shoulder, my H came out and tried to act normal and biked away, then my S ran after me and demanded I pack all his stuff and said he would come. So after all that, S came.
I was driving like 90 miles an hour and still ended up missing ferry and had to sit at ferry for 1.5 hours.
Anyway then we arrive at last, and I just realize how dark and neurotic my family is, they are all so moody, no one welcomes us cheerfully or shows compassion, you can tell they think I am bringing this all on myself and if I would just get the D done, we could all move on. S is freaking out,and I take a walk to calm down, walking around thinking if I could call a friend to talk me down. And then, incredibly, I decided I would call my H and just spill my guts and ask him to come and help us -- and I had to talk myself down from that insanity (fear not, I did not call), and then my son started begging me to go home and I just got so TIRED of living this way, so sad that this was the life my kids have, with no dad. It was okay before that my own family is so weird and neurotic because we had our own little unit, but now it's just me wandering about with my two kids like lost souls and every trip starts with a huge fight with my S refusing to come.
I realized that I keep trying to create memories for them, to go on trips to get away, to do something, and it doesn't work. I know so many of you have been able to do this, but for me, it just always feels like I am missing a limb and they are always sad.
It only seems to work when we travel with certain friends. Otherwise we are all just too lonely.
I am falling asleep so I will stop there for now. Love to all.
My D likes being here, and I was realizing that if my S
Gerda
Hugs
I forget exactly how old s is
But teens are tricky
God has given them free will
And they begin to assert it
I have a lot of kids so let me say
Some will choose what you and I think are the right choices
Others will choose otherwise
More later
(((Gerda)))
That missing limb feeling does get better, it lessens a lot.
Gordie is right, God gave kids free will and they use it. They want to be confrontational then compilant, argumentative then agreeable, and so on.
Perhaps if you have son involved more in the planning stage he would buy into the trip (or whatever) more. It is harder to rebel against something you had a hand in planning. That is just a little tip I learned with my four kids, which is by no means an absolute guarantee - they will still argue against something they planned and want to do.
Gerda you write as much or as little as you want - and as boringly as you want.
I enjoy reading your posts and do not find them boring. Heck you’re a writing teacher. I am always checking my posts for spelling errors.
Hang in there girl, you are doing fine.
I second DNJ
Your writing is not boring
Gerda, I pray you have a good time with your extended family.
Your writing is just fine...it reflects the details that you feel are important and that is what this place is all about.
I invited my W to church with us all last night...she declined it, but I felt compelled to invite her. The Gospel was Ephesians 5:12-33...How husbands and wives should treat one another. I guess it was fitting. The priest explained that husbands and wives should treat each other with reverence and that they should also sacrifice themselves for their spouse and the marriage. I guess in a way that is what we do as standers.
Have a great week.
SBJ, thank you for the prayers. I know God always hears our prayers but I think he took yours in a different direction! The trip was pretty awful and we ended up leaving early. My dad was in rare form and criticized me constantly, even arguing with me on the street in the little town! My S was a mess and totally regressed into his video game playing self, refusing to come hang out with us and never even going to the teach. He just totally shut down around my dad and brother, as they so clearly want to correct his behavior without ever having put in the time to win his love and trust.
My D9 was counseling me so wisely, she helped me apologize to my dad even when he really wronged me, as he is old and we wanted to restore the peace.
I kept asking God to help me love my dad and brother unconditionally, but in the end I think I realized that I need to stop trying to give my kids family when it is unhealthy, and just to stick to friends who are like family whenever I can make that happen. But I did have a few private meltdowns, wishing that my H would just wake up and be part of things again. He was always so great with my dad, and I was much better able to navigate the family when he was there.
You are so right about Eph5 and how we are doing that even if our spouses don't realize that or even when we can't really show all the love and respect we want to. Now that I am waiting for another letter from my H's D lawyer, I have really entered a new phase of my stand. I am totally surrendering all to God, but that includes not changing my understanding of the covenant just because my H is going all the way with this. It is so much easier to know what to do this way. No strategizing, no bitterness, no payback, no slavery to self. (At least, most of the time.) I get confused so often, but when I don't try to fix it and just try to walk my walk in the light, it is much clearer.
Unfortunately that leaves a whole lotta sorrow but I keep laying that at God's feet.
Thank you, Gordie! I still think what I write here can get boring but I am glad if it doesn't seem that way to you. I consider your posts the ultimate in haiku style -- including all that precision!
DnJ, I really like your reminder about free will and how teens are using it. I like that active and positive way of looking at it. And it paves the way for a future of using it more wisely.
I am not using mine wisely by staying up so late to write to you but it has been a little while since I read your as-ever kind post and reaped its benefits so I thought I had better let you know that.
Lately I was thinking that I might leave the boards for a while. I think I am using them as a distraction and I may have more clarity if I stick to God and prayer. I find also that reading your posts, and those of some of my other guy friends here, is causing me a certain amount of angst or longing since you are all such wonderful guys. The juxtaposition seems more painful than if I didn't have the reference.
Likewise when I walk around my city at night, walking the dog or moving the car, and everywhere I go are couples holding hands or more, and it just makes me much lonelier than when I don't see that. And then there are the posts on other threads where people are angry or encouraging bitterness and those threads make me lose hope but I end up reading them anyway.
I have been thinking lately it's time to cut out some of these things I use to distract myself and instead use that time to do real work or house projects or other things that will pull me forward instead of spending so much time lingering over my circumstances and trying to fill up my loneliness hole. Maybe some of my posts on other threads have been helpful, but that's always hard to say. I haven't made up my mind about it yet.
Anyway I hope your night is going well, DnJ, and that you are enjoying the first breaths of fall air, I hope you got to look up at that nice big old orange harvest moon a few nights ago, hanging over your dark forest and the quiet grass....
Good Morning Gerda
If you feel you must leave I understand completely, I was there too. Take all the time you need.
There are many people here I admire greatly, you are among them.
I am struggling to just leave things with that last sentence. A new way for me is to not leave things unsaid, and have regrets later. Also not to said things, and have regrets later. It is difficult to know which i’m facing sometimes, like the current crossroads.
So, with yet another leap of faith, I will ... oh my goodness ... I spent a few minutes thinking about this. I will speak.
I understand your juxtaposition, the angst and longing, there are many wonderful women on these boards also, in case you haven’t noticed.
The holding hand that I witness from other loving couples does tug at my heart strings so very much. I do miss that.
There are angry people, happy people, people lost in their own bitterness, the world is full of all types of people.
The distractions that this board lured my into - Yes as a result I have a lot of things to do around the house also.
From where I am now - I will submit that it is was not a distraction, it was necessary. I needed to let my mind figure things out.
I too felt that I should leave and get a break. However, people are still bitter, people still are in love and hold hands, and I still have feelings of longing.
Leaving the boards, leaving the shopping mall, leaving work, where do I stop? People are everywhere. The problem was with me, inside, I had to reconcile things internally. Staying and struggling through, walking my path, living in the light, provided the reconciliation I sought. For me leaving smacked of denial of what I was suffering and had to face.
I am very glad to have met you Gerda. I have quite a list of people who have provided me with insights. A paticular one from you was the day you told me to continue to walk in the light, God grace. I don’t think a will ever forget that.
Gerda, as always, I pray the best for you.
Love, DnJ
Gerda,
Maybe it is time for you to take a little break from the forums, but only you can determine that. Sometimes, we need a break from posting and reading the other threads just to have the time to clear our heads and recharge our batteries. There is no harm in that.
Do what is right for you. Take care and know that the door is always open for one our family members.
Hi Gerda! I hope you are well today. I wanted to chime in and say that I have to take a break from the boards regularly for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm kind of on a break now. I have to say though, DNJs comment gave me pause. I'll be thinking about that myself.
(((Gerda)))
Thanks, as ever, DnJ, for your words -- and for the spaces between your words -- and for all the thought and care you took and always take to give of yourself so completely and selflessly and truthfully. I don't think I can say more than I have said these past few months about how much I admire your outlook, your writing, your care for your family, your phenomenally amazing parenting (esp lately with D16), your faithfulness to your W, your sense of honor, your love of truth and the gentle way you read the beauty of nature not as a spectator but as an active participant, a life giver and receiver, one who plants seeds of joys and sows and reaps the fruits.
I am very glad that my words meant something to you as well. I looked back for what I had said to you about being in the light because of what you said; it helped me to read it again and was a comfort to me to know that it was good to have written it.
And all that leads to part of what is bothering me -- We can't even know each other's names and yet we have these incredibly intimate conversations and know so much about each other's lives, things that many of our IRL friends don't know. There is a definite good in that, for sure, and the support I got/get in darkest moments is life-saving, but lately I also see a cowardice in it. If I can only talk like this with people who can't know my name, then I have to think of the reasons why we can't actually know each other and then the whole project starts to unravel for me. I get why we can't be actually connected but it just points to something for me that seems wrong about relying on these boards so much.
And then there is the fact that my radical beliefs don't really fit with this forum. On these boards I think I am often seen as a sad sack of doormat precisely when I am feeling God pouring strength into me.
Which to me means that I should be leaning harder on God and not trying to find answers elsewhere.
Thank you so much for stopping by, sjohn, your posts always bring some cheer into my heart. I explained more just now in my reply to DnJ about why I am thinking about taking a break. Hopefully I will have the discipline to do it!
I will keep praying for you though!
Job, you are such a good mama/auntie/sister to us all. Thank you for always being there with clarity, strength, gentle truth prods and your very open heart.
Gerda,
I do not think anyone sees you as a sad sack. When a poster comes to the forum, it is their choice to select what they can use in their situation and what they can just ignore of leave here. That is the beauty of the forums. Sometimes we do not like what we hear, so just thank the person and go on about our merry way.
As for not being able to connect w/people off the forum, well, there are many reasons for this. This is a safe place for people to come, post what is on their minds w/o worrying about the people in IRL judging the posters and gossiping about what is happening in their lives w/o the spouses/partners getting wind of the conversations and using it against them. Some of the IRL support groups are the same way. It's safer for all who go to the meetings and they feel more comfortable opening up and talking. If the forum allowed us to give out personal information, people would be a bit more hesitant in sharing some of their life experiences. So, yes, I can understand the rules of conduct here more than most. I've went down that road many years ago by the sharing of personal contact info, etc.
Gerda, I generally do not discuss religion or politics very much on here because they are personal choices that posters make in the lives, however, I wanted to just say that you have a very strong faith. A faith that has guided you along the way. God does not turn his back on his children. However, he also wants us to learn the life's lessons that he provides us and do the necessary work to be good Christians and share the knowledge of what we have learned along the way and he does not want us to sit still and not do the necessary work to take care of ourselves and our families. Gerda, I think that at times, you are pushing too hard to find the answers. I have always stated "sit quietly, and the answers will come". God does not give us what we want when we want it. He gives us what we need on his time table. He will reveal the answers you are seeking when you least expect it.
Just my two cents.
I am stopping back in though I had planned to leave for a while because yesterday I got served with divorce papers. Stuck under my door with no envelope where all our renters and my children could have seen.
The list of demands includes 100% custody of the kids (yes, not joking), child support,alimony,half of all assets, no mention of debt, and suggestion that I use my maiden name.
I don't need anyone to tell me to protect myself or any of that advice. I just need some love, some hope.
I knew that the alien he is right now thought he hated me but I just never thought it was this bad. I thought he just wanted money. But he wants to destroy me, to take everything from me, even my name.
I know that he can't and that there could be years of court. But the fact that he wants to destroy me has destroyed me. I am a walking wound the past two days, can't eat or sleep or think, my body feels pumped full of battery acid. It's a BD 4 not just about him leaving but about him wanting to destroy me.
When I came home tonight and saw him laughing and smiling with my daughter on the couch, I felt like I was going to throw up.
And even though we know it's not about us, I still can't understand it. He has this delusion about the money, yes, but still, at home I am kind and caring and generous. I get a little stiff or hide in my room but nothing to warrant evil like that.
As far as I can tell, he has no plans to move out until he gets his money. (And I don't need any advice there, I am doing what I can but my main goal right now is about keeping my children with me.)
Please send love and understanding. I am a wreck.
(((Gerda))) I’m sorry about the papers and what he is trying to do. No advice, but having been there I just wanted to say it will get better and you will be okay. Keeping you and your kids in my thoughts and prayers.
(((Gerda)))
Oh my, you must be a wreck.
The demands - Wow! He is way off the rails.
When you arrived here a few months ago, you did not want any advice. I thought, Ok I will respect her wishes. Over time I believe we have become good friends. We’ve exchanged much advice. I am honouring your wishes again.
You have given much good advice and touched many lives. Look back at all the people that have responded to your posts. You are loved. You are respected.
You know me and my situation. You know my hopes, my beliefs, my view on expectations. So...
Gerda I fully expect you to heal and thrive from this. You will. Your faith is strong, your heart is strong, your mind is strong - you have a good soul.
My thoughts and prayers are with you Gerda.
If you want or need - just ask.
DnJ
Thanks to you both for the kind words.
Yes, I am a wreck.
DnJ, you are always very gentle with your advice. If you have something you want to advise, go for it.
I guess what I am struggling with now, besides physical collapse, is the ability to still be kind to him. Knowing that he would allow this demand list, to be wanting to leave me completely alone without my children and nameless and penniless, I can't look at him anymore, let alone be kind. But he is in this house and our kids can see that. I have always been kind to him and friendly no matter what he did. Now I am not sure how to get through even the next days, knowing how evil he has become and knowing that I will have to participate in this disgusting battle that is exactly what I was trying to avoid.
Gerda,
I am so sorry to come here and read what has happened. I know that you mentioned that you didn't want advice, but I'm going to give you some tidbits that you may already know...but can still use.
It's going to be difficult to act as normal as possible, but dig deep for patience and lean on your faith to help you do this. The less you react to what has transpired the better. Your h is actually following much of the script and in his mind, he needs to destroy everything good in his life because he feels that nothing is good, including himself.
He is going to be looking for your reaction and he, deep down, needs a justification for what he's done.
His demands are "off the wall" and I can't see him getting full custody. Whatever you do, do not try to discuss his demands w/him...it will make him even more hateful at this time. Discuss your situation w/your lawyer and allow him/her to do the dirty work for you in advising his lawyer of what your thoughts are on his client's demands.
Gerda, sending you warm and positive thoughts today. I wish I lived closer for I would come over and give you a huge hug. It's never easy, especially when you have the spouse still living under the same roof.
Good morning Gerda
I can see your struggle. It will take a few days to find your feet - again. A decision has been made, maybe you will eventually even say finally. This like everything else is not what you wanted, so far from it.
I do remember the state of confusion and disbelief BD causes. You are on number 4. You know you can get through this, even if it doesn’t seem like it currently.
Some gentle advice in no paticular order.
See a lawyer. You don’t want to participate in this battle, let the L do it. Yes you are still in it, but let the L do their job and get you what you want / need - like custody, financial protection, and freedom from this MLC drain.
Let others and listen to others advice. You don’t have to follow it, you certainly don’t have to follow mine either. Information is power and having different points of view available gives you great power. You can and will know you made a better decision. Most times it does not change your decision, just confirms you are on the right track. If some is less desirable, that is ok, atleast they cared enough to speak up. Advice counter to your thoughts and/or beliefs is a great time to re-evaluate and change them or re-enforce your beliefs. Either way you will gain.
Last for now, and one I have not shared with you, maybe I was scared. God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. Most times the answer is what we need not what we want. I prayed for strength and then found it by fighting my way through this convoluted quagmire we find ourselves in, I really wanted that strength in an easier manner. I guess it would not be true strength then, and not part of who I am.
I, like you pray for God guidance, how do you see him answering you? It took a leap of faith for me to realize He is speaking through others - their suggestions, their advice. Do not dismiss His word. He is answering you.
You are not to follow everything blindly either, sometimes it is meant not to be followed, perhaps a test of your convictions. Other times it is a test of your faith. That free will of our’s does make getting His word a bit tricky. Don’t worry, if you make a mistake, actually I think / believe we are supposed to, you can always undo and go a different route (even our lost MLCers can find their way to another path) it is how you truely learn the lessons you need.
You have a difficult road ahead of you. I and others would be happy to walk it with you, in whatever fashion you require.
(((Gerda)))
DnJ
Hugs
Your post reminded me that my w asked me for the same after she filed 18 months ago
Yes she would get kids and house and alimony and child support
I would disappear and she would be happy
It hurts badly I get it
You said you did not want advice just support
So I am sending you support and prayers
Gordie, Job, DnJ, I do want your advice. I am just scared of some of the other people who post to me so I didn't want to hear a lot of advice that is not my path. Gordie, fire away. DnJ, Job, I will answer later today, thank you.
I am meeting with a lawyer to find out rights and responsibilities and then I am pro se. I have been pro se in my other court case for two years and can do it. I barely have money to buy groceries right now, so no lawyer is possible, even if I wanted that. I am trusting God as I did with my other court case, and in that one I have always done much better than the lawyers I had before I ran out of money.
Gerda, I have no advice for you. I only have hugs, prayers, and support.
I just had the one year anniversary of our D being final and I can say that it gets easier, and that God will see you thru this storm.
Job, reading this over a bunch of times, it is helping. I think I forgot that even his pursuit of the D is part of the insanity. It seems like its making his insanity somehow normalized and that is what is confusing me. The D makes me want to roll over and die. The thought of my kids not being with me every single night is the same. The thought of having to participate in D proceedings is also so horrifying to me -- I was just telling a friend, and excuse the metaphor, but it's as if someone said I had to do something truly horrible that I absolutely would never do, like attend an orgy or shoot heroin, and I keep saying, "No, no, I can't do that, my faith, my morals, my love of beauty and truth," and they keep saying, No, but you have to. And there is no way out.
I wish I knew what was going to happen over the next month, year, two years. Walking in the darkness with my little Christ candle for so long, now the way is getting darker, and I feel ready to just roll off the path and let a spiritual truck run over me.
My son started a new school and texted me all the last hour in a massive panic attack wanting to come home. He has school anxiety and I got him into this therapeutic school but he already hates it of course. I start to panic when he panics. I decided to ask my H about it because he was home. I haven't spoken to him since getting the papers. He talked about it with me as if we were real parents and even talked about how S had to see us as strong and resilient and able to face anything in life, and standing strong. I don't think he said, "together," but it was all implied. The entire conversation, a million things came into my mind that I wanted to say, and the whole time I thought of your post and wrestled myself into just listening, though I had to look down at the floor the entire time. Then he told me how to leave the a/c on so the fridge would keep working while he was out. The longing to just be able to be parents together and fix the fridge together was so intense, it was only because I had read your post that I was able to keep from saying something about his horrible D papers and demands (e..g, I kept wanting to say, "Well, once you have 100% custody, I guess you'll figure it out") on the one hand, or on the other, "Why can't you just love me again so we can do all this together?" Because of you, I wasn't perfect (e.g., eye contact),but I was at least pretty silent. Thank you.
And if you lived closer, you would get really annoyed with me calling you every ten minutes NEEDING you to come over and give me a hug.
Gerda,
I remember very well the feelings that you are experiencing right now, but I can assure you, in time, it will get better. Right now, everything looks dark and bleak...but your faith and faith in yourself will carry you through this darkness. We can sit all day and wonder what things will be like tomorrow, next month or even years from now, but so much can change in such a short time...but one thing is guaranteed, living in the here and now, will only strengthen you. Take it one step at a time, one minute at a time. Try not to look too far into the future. You've got to deal with today and only today for now.
No, you wouldn't annoy me w/calls...I was right where you are now and if it hadn't been for this forum, friends and family, I would be the person that I am today. Sending you virtual hugs and positive thoughts. Try to relax just a bit and breathe! You can't fix everything today.
Gerda
My only advice
Is to take care of yourself
Do what works for you
When I was feeling the way you feel
I had to go dark
It just hurt too much to be around her
Now is the time to take care of you
Even if under the same roof
No need to interact
Until you are back on your feet
And you will be
I know it
I am so sorry that you are going through this, Gerda.
I don’t have any advice other than breathe and focus on today and taking care of yourself. Don’t worry about the custody......he won’t get it. He would have to prove you were an unfit mother.
Here is a big Welsh (((cwtch))) for you. You are very much in my thoughts. You WILL be ok.......just give time, time.
DnJ, Gordie, Westo, Job -- All my love and thanks. I will write more soon. All your posts are so helpful to me, truly!
Westo, I think I am worried even about him taking them one night a week. It's the very thing I was most horrified by, the children having to be away from me when they didn't want to.
On the other hand, I don't see how he will get that far. A friend (my kids' godfather) paid the retainer for the divorce lawyer for him, and I can't imagine he will be willing to pay for more than that. I am going pro se so I am not afraid of a long process -- well,I mean, not afraid of having to pay for it. I am terrified to go through that horror.
This morning I got a request from him for money from our rentals. Our rentals rarely cover our mortgages but sometimes do; but they are never enough for all the other debt payments and expenses. He could know this from the famous spreadsheet but can't function.
Every time I gave him money in the past (don't need advice on that, it is a faith-based decision, not a world justice decision), it was from my own account. But he still can't fathom this.
My question is -- now that he has filed for divorce, are we legally separated? Should any discussion of money go through his lawyer now? If I answer him, do I copy his lawyer? I only want to be legal, not to push his buttons. The complication is that we do have a joint income, it's not my money, but the income is not enough to have anything leftover to split. I also had tax troubles and closed our company account and made a new company to pay sales tax but hadn't gotten around yet to opening a new bank account for that company! It will take me some time to get the paperwork from the state to do that but I will undertake that this week.
Gerda,
Here's what I would do if I were in your situation, but you can do what you feel is right for you. Whatever you give him, document the date, time and amount and from which account the funds were taken from. When I had to dole out funds to my xh, I had a receipt typed up with the info and had him sign that he had received "X" amount of dollars or such and such date. It leaves a nice paper trail and he can't say that he didn't receive the funds from you. I did this right after he went nuts, moved out and filed. It was a lot of work, but at the end of the day, it was the proof I needed to bring to court.
I would set up a spreadsheet for your use in doling out funds to him. I don't think I would provide his lawyer with a copy of this or a copy of the spreadsheet that you set up for your husband to review concerning the expenses, etc, until you absolutely have to. Document, document and document some more. The more you have as evidence, the better your case will be down the road. I know that this isn't what you want to do, but you have to do it to save yourself, your children and your assets, etc.
His lawyer is only hearing one side of the story and right now, he's believing his client and who knows what the man is telling him.
Job,this is really really helpful. I really like this idea actually.
I think I do have a trail of sorts already because of the e-mails he sends and then I always give him a check from my account.
But my only question is -- is there any use in his lawyer seeing what he is actually doing and what I am actually doing? I would love it if his lawyer would let him understand much sooner that the court is not going to do what he wants just because he is p!ssed.
Job, I just want to thank you again for helping me. It really is interesting how different the MLC survivor esponse to divorce is from those of friends I have who went through divorces and not from MLC. Or rather, they didn't know about MLC. Who knows if it was actually MLC driving their divorces too!
Gerda,
The lawyer is working for and is being paid by your h. Whether the lawyer actually believes everything your h is telling him or not, the lawyer is thinking of billable hours on this deal. They see this kind of stuff all of the time and know that MLCers tend to rack up billable hours because they are so off the wall. As for sharing stuff with his lawyer, I wouldn't unless the lawyer contacts you. If you had legal representation, then I would suggest you share the info w/the person representing you.
I can't emphasize enough about documenting and being consistent in doing this. I know it takes a lot of time, but at the end of the day, it will be well worth it. Be sure to make copies of any and all messages, checks, etc. It's important to keep this data safe and out of his reach and prying eyes.
Trust me, his lawyer is only going to be looking out for his client's best interests and they will certainly not be your best interests.
Yesterday I had a meeting with a lawyer just to get an understanding of the process and advice on what to do.
He said my case for full custody was very good and I should refuse to back down on that.
He gave me various other advice, and all of it was a lot more on the offensive than I want to be. I wanted to just respond whenever possible, not to initiate anything. This lawyer was not someone who would understand MLC nor of course someone of faith. If I alluded to the fact that my H was doing this to relieve a pain that won't be relieved by this, or that I thought he could one day come out of the insanity, he just told me to accept that this is happening and fight for what is mine.
I thought that I should be as slow as possible, and just let all the craziness go on on the the other side of the mountain. Fight for my kids when pushed but not go on the attack.
So I am not sure what to do as far as how I go into this.
I don't want to participate in this at all of course. But it also seems like if you do anything to get anything, you have to get so ugly and say and do things you would never normally say and do. I would have to say all the things he has done and talk about his drinking and so many things. I would have to try to get full custody on first conference and this would also imply that I am kicking him out of house.
It is so strange how this whole situation forces you to take actions you would never ever talk and which you find morally reprehensible.
Gerda,
I am glad you had a meeting w/a lawyer to get a better understanding of the process and on the custody issue. Like here, you take what you can use from that meeting and leave the rest on the table for now.
You can be as slow as you want, but it may ramp him up in demanding and being a pain even more so to live with...but you will be prepared for that. If you are going to represent yourself, then slow it is....and he can push and demand all he wants because he will be the one racking up the billable hours.
Do document...this is important. You do not necessarily have to get ugly in all of this...but he will. It's unfortunate that we have to stand our ground as much as possible because they tend to destroy everything in their path and in their own way, they want us to hate them as much as they hate themselves.
Dig deeper for patience, document everything, and continue to lean on your faith.
Hello Gerda
I have been checking on your thread, and praying for you. Just been a little too busy with work lately, I am pretty sure you know what that’s like.
He said my case for full custody was very good and I should refuse to back down on that.
...he just told me to accept that this is happening and fight for what is mine.
Those are two good pieces of advice.
Anything you do will have little to no affect on your H’s MLC, he has to go through whatever issues he has.
I understand you do not want to do this, I did not want to either. I still can picture signing W and my separation agreement, making it legal and binding.
Let me offer a viewpoint, maybe it will help. Your H is the one who is pushing this, and I get that you do not want things to get ugly. Ugly, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If pressed you will just tell the truth, the facts of what has happened. You are just responding truthfully. From my eye, that is not ugly, that is right.
Ensure you are working towards stuff that really matters to you, like custody. Do not become embroiled in petty agruements. You can stand tall and proud protecting you and your kids. Keep standing in the light.
You are a smart women Gerda, I know you got this. Just letting you know I am thinking about you.
DnJ, thank you so much. I have read your posts to me post-BD4 many times over. I was especially moved by the fact that you have sought answers from God; this is something I didn't really know you did. But it makes sense, considering the way you live your life with so much goodness and truth and beauty.
I very much want to only speak the truth when pressed. What is bothering me is that it seems like I have to push the whole thing before pressed. It seems like I have to go on the offensive and take the lead.
And what does it mean to protect my kids? Is that only about custody? And am I positive that the best thing for them is my sole custody? I feel like it is but how do I know that this will plant some seed of confusion about me keeping them from him, even if I say he can visit everyday. Does protecting them mean fighting to keep this house, which seems to be my H's entire obsession now, to access the equity in it and to end my "control" of him in my refusal to sell it? And keep in mind that if he were my old H and we were making a plan together to start a new life somewhere, even if I didn't really want to, I would submit him to sell it. But doing that now when he has cycled in and out of wanting to sell it to run away with OW and then wanting to sell it because he doesn't want to work and has no plan of where we would live or what we would live on, scenarios that weren't even clear about if we would be going somewhere else together or separately, that is why I have felt that I was doing more to stand for the marriage if I was the "faithful and prudent" servant who held on to it.
It is a lot of equity, far too much for me to buy him out unless once we added in all the debts we share (which are massive) and then maybe took out child support til the kids are 18, maybe then the amount would be low enough that I could do something crazy to figure out a way. I am in this strange situation of having a house worth a lot more than we owe on it, but having so little income (plus the siphon of MLC) that I can't afford to get the kids to the dentist. If we have to sell it, we will have to leave where we live and lose at least half a million dollars to capital gains tax, but I will only be able to afford maybe a 2-bedroom where we live, and there will be a monthly maintenance in any building around here that is as much as monthly rent where many of you live Right now we live in a pretty big apartment for free, as the rentals in the apartments below ours cover our huge mortgage.
We have no retirement savings and clearly I will not be getting alimony. This house is our retirement and a way to live for free until then. It is our home that I and the kids love. But the lawyer told me that a judge will be annoyed with my clinging to it and will order us to sell it if we go to trial.
And then in order to try to hold on to it, I would have to do a lot of arguing, a lot of back and forth and a lot of mud slinging about all that he has done in life and with money in the past five years. I will be alone in the court having to do that all on my own.
I am jumping ahead but this is what is making me crazy, my mind going over and over all the things I will have to do in the months to come, and what I will say and when I have to say it.
Job, are you saying you think I should avoid ramping him up or just continue what I think I am doing, slow and steady and focusing on response and not taking the lead in anything?
You keep saying to lean on my faith; my faith is very radical and at times I am not sure how far I am supposed to go with submitting to whatever happens and trusting God. I know my H can't take everything, I have reviewed how the law works. But he could take a lot if I don't fight.
What do you think I should document besides money? The L said i don't need to do things like photograph wine bottles but that in the discovery period, I can review the records on his cards and see alcohol purchases probably. But that's part of the awfulness. I imagine reviewing his card history and seeing all sorts of horrors that I have purposefully avoided seeing all this time.
Gerda
W expected me to submit and give her everything
I am not sure what to tell you
Because what I did may not be possible for you
I hired a very good lawyer
I told him my objectives for custody and money
I was willing to be very generous financially
But I was not willing to give up on custody
I let him do most of the work
And yes at times it got ugly
Because I would not give up on what was most important to me
She eventually agreed to my terms
And yes I prayed for guidance
Luke 16
Gerda,
I would remain slow and steady for now. Only respond to questions/requests that are put to you. He wants this divorce, then allow him to lead and you can quietly be preparing yourself behind the scenes.
In my case, I documented everything. I took photos of everything in my home so that I had a record in case I needed to present something during the "fact finding" that takes place along the way.
Try not to get too far ahead of yourself. Take it one day at a time.
Good morning Gerda.
Yesterday was cold, raining, bleak, and very windy. It stormed through the night and I awoke to sunshine, clear blue skies, and a good looking yard of shortly cut grass cleared of all MLC clippings.
I love a good storm. I was out in it yesterday, well in my shed fixing my lawn tractor - had to replace a broken throttle cable.
The power of a storm, lightning, wind, dark skies, and swirling clouds is very beautiful. It is the total opposite of a clear calm day which also contains so much beauty. Neither of these needs to be ugly for the other to be beautiful.
Our lives are like that. You have a storm building in your life. You can approach it focusing on the darkness and despair or find the beauty and power of the storm, the knowledge that sunny days will follow.
The chaos a storm brings will blow things around - I had to recover my three garbage cans and contents and go on a hunt for two of the lids. Loose things in your life will get blown around, do not worry you will pick them up later. Find your solid footing, those anchors in your life, and stand strong against the chaos.
Find acceptance, fighting an inevitable storm will leave you drenched, cold, tired, and wore out. You may be surprised at the cleanising that will happen after a storm, I am sure your own grass has enough clippings in it, let go and let them blow away.
Yes I have sought answers from God. I believe He exists in each and every one of us, it is just a matter of listening within and to others to hear him.
Since I never know where that next bit of information will come from I have listened to all sources, even the angry divorced unforgiving people at work who just need to pass on their own solutions to their problems. They do not listen well and have a very focused and bitter outlook.
However, after 9 months and my growing outlook on life a few have slowly moved away from their bitterness. One guy in paticular told me last week that he really enjoys talking with me, it is like therapy. Anyways that’s a different topic.
I very much want to only speak the truth when pressed. What is bothering me is that it seems like I have to push the whole thing before pressed. It seems like I have to go on the offensive and take the lead.
I agree in speaking the truth when pressed. The choice to remain silent and say nothing is your’s, I think you would have less regrets with the truth than with silence, no matter what the outcome - you will have done your best.
I think I understand what you mean when you feel you need to take the lead and push before H will press you to give you that opportunity to respond. It is a limbo state waiting for the next volley from H, very disconcerting for you. Remember you do not have to lead this, you can wait a bit, just be prepared. However, if you feel - then wait a bit until - you believe you should push and lead things along. And then ask for more advice. Right now you are too unsure so sitting and waiting for a solution is a good plan (job really does have good advice
).
And what does it mean to protect my kids? Is that only about custody? And am I positive that the best thing for them is my sole custody? I feel like it is but how do I know that this will plant some seed of confusion about me keeping them from him, even if I say he can visit everyday. Does protecting them mean fighting to keep this house, which seems to be my H's entire obsession now, to access the equity in it and to end my "control" of him in my refusal to sell it?
Protecting kids. I used it as a blanket in term for everything under its umbrella. Custody, raising them, moral values, financial consideration, enjoyment with life, friends, school, learning to drive, their love for their parents, their feelings, their right to their feelings, and so on. Protect their childhood! You are the sane one, to the best of your abilities ensure they get the best childhood they will have.
So protecting does not mean you have to fight to keep you current house - it does mean you fight to give your children a home.
Custody. A difficult topic. Is sole custody with you best? No, best would be that loving family - H, you, and kids - you need to do the next best thing. Just being accurate. Since H is no longer looking to work towards that view of family and best, you need to figure out what to do.
Also there are laws to help protect kids and parents, and each of their rights.
The seeds of confusion can be overcome by talking to your kids. Being open, honest, and age appropriate. One thing is the idea of letting him visit them everyday if you had sole custody. That is very gracious and would probably not be return if H had sole custody, however to a large extent it is the child’s choice to visit or not. You do not facilitate their relationship with H, your job is not to distroy it. You listen and encourage them.
My view on your custody issue is to talk to your L and follow their advice. You said L thought you had a good case for sole custody, there are reasons for that. Pursuing sole custody does not mean you will achieve it, you may get less - it is probably better than starting with 50/50 after what H initially offered.
When I read about H wanting to sell house, run away with OW, or maybe not work, no plan on where to live, or if you are involved or not - I am sure you can see the confusion and crazy. That house and his idea of all the equity sure is a bee in his bonnet.
Gerda, see a finical planner and see what your options are (I think you already have if so sorry). Find out what you can and cannot achieve. Maybe there is a way to hold in to your house, if you want too.
I am jumping ahead but this is what is making me crazy, my mind going over and over all the things I will have to do in the months to come, and what I will say and when I have to say it.
Yep, jumping ahead. However, I like that you are thinking and looking at becoming prepared. I believe that a lot of this will not come to pass, the problem is we don’t know which parts those are.
The future is, thankfully, unknown and occluded from us. Let it unfold and accept that things are going to happen. Your H may lie, get angry, and cause a lot of stress - you can and will weather that storm.
Don’t fear the darkness, it is the herald of upcoming bright days.
Be the best you will be.
DnJ
Gordie, thank you for replying. I can't hire a very good lawyer or any lawyer at all. This week for example I am many thousands of dollars short of paying the mortgage.
How did your lawyer do that? Just continue to say no? The lawyer I met with scared me. He said the judge will get angry with me if I keep refusing to compromise. But I figure I can at least try for a while, they are not going to force anything in the first conferences.
The lawyer told me I should ask for temporary custody now too. I am not sure about that but I decided that I am going to ask for a psychiatric evaluation at the first conference. I am going to show some of his insane e-mails and mention is alcoholism as well as the times he took money from my daughter's wallet and never gave it back. But I am planning to say that I do not want this divorce and that I believe his mental health crisis causes even his decision to divorce to be in question, let alone all the decisions about finance and the children. I don't know if the judge will listen but that was my plan. It is not what my lawyer advised but it did come out of a conversation with a priest I am close to, and after that conversation I felt peace and strength in a way I haven't for a long while. This morning I still woke up like a battery on fire but I will keep reaching for peace.
Luke 16. Very very difficult passage. I can't figure out how you are interpreting it here. I want to know more.
Job, DnJ, Gordie, a million thanks.
One thing I wonder --
I will have to say many things about him even at the first conference in order to keep my kids from having to live with him. I hate to say these things about him and fuel his hatred of me. I fear that once I say all those things, he will be justified in hating me. I know that sounds crazy, since I am not lying about anything, just saying the truth, but it will be in order to keep him from taking the kids and hopefully to not allow any custody. I think it is very unhealthy for the kids to be around him at all though I can't tell what is worse. But just that he will see it as my stealing the kids from him, and it will drive him further.
But I think what I hear from all of you is that it doesn't matter, because while he is like this, I can't do anything that will change him, and once he is not like this (if that day ever comes), he will understand that he was wrong.
Is that what you mean?
DnJ, I will write more later, but as ever I want to thank you for the gift of your posts.
I actually visited your thread and wrote a post that disappeared and I was already such a mess that I couldn't write it again. It was about how unlikely it is that the OM would ever last, even if they married.
This week I am many thousands of dollars short for the mortgage, and I am in deep trouble on many other financial fronts. I can't afford a lawyer or even an accountant right now, and my biz taxes are due in one week. I feel like I can gather the strength and courage to walk this other path with my H but the financial problems are starting to push my head under that water. Every accountant I spoke with quoted a minimum of $1500 and I don't even have $15....
Gerda - just a quick stop for lunch and thought I’d check in on you.
But I think what I hear from all of you is that it doesn't matter, because while he is like this, I can't do anything that will change him, and once he is not like this (if that day ever comes), he will understand that he was wrong.
Is that what you mean?
Yep, that is a good summary.
Save yourself and kids, that is your primary and most important goal. Do it in the most compassionate and loving way you can, just do not sacrifice reaching your goal - don’t get stuck.
(((Gerda)))
Oh DnJ, thank you for checking in.
I wonder what you will think of this. I sent my H a note today, tried to call him but he didn't answer, because I came home to another notice from his L already calling for a conference at the court though I haven't even answered the first notice yet.
And also in the mail was a tax warrant against me for a very huge sum from one of my tax problems that I haven't been able to solve.
So I wrote to my H a note saying that I did not want a D, it was his project entirely, but if he was going to undertake it, he needed to find another place to stay, as it was not possible for me to live through this nightmare with him here. Here is the reply I just got. (I didn't say anything about it serving him alone, in fact I implied that it was not good for him, me or the kids.)
I respect your way of experiencing and interpreting what’s happening as "a nightmare” and as a “project” of my own that serves me and only me. I couldn’t disagree with your interpretation more.
I feel not that I am leaving but that I have been (unbeknownst to you) slowly-surely-unconscously compelled by you to leave, compelled by you, in other words, first, to annihilate my own highest selfhood; secondly, to annihilate my own image of the future: and, third, annihilate my own image what it means to be a father, husband, and an authentic equal (versus an emissary) in the quotidian affairs of homemaking.
In any case, I cannot go to the (rental house) because I am writing prolifically now and I need access to first-rate library collections. I need access to (named the top universities in our city). (Occasionally -- named the top universities in cities within 4 hours of us — can work.)
Secondly, I have a deep abiding primordial interest — a householder interest that is uniquely my own and different from yours — to be a real (versus a ghost) father to D and S, and it is my top priority to create the sort of reality that can be conducive to manifesting a condition of real versus ghosty fatherhood, love.
And five minutes later I just got this one. The amazing thing is that the last line is EXACTLY how I am living and exactly what I have an idea about, but I guess I had better not say that.
For the record, and with all respect and love, it is because we have not been able to agree, and it is because I now find my self in extremes of penury and sub-poverty, and it is because I cannot but experience myself around you as occupying not the roles of equal spouse and partner but the roles of being an emissary, a dependent, an inferior not to a wife but to an executor, a mother, a landlord — it is because I cannot for the life of me get from under the wheel of these experiences of dependency and inferiority and servility while sharing a home with you and while "negotiating" with life with you that I hired a lawyer. We are again at a point where you see it your way and I see it entirely in another way and I have had to finally come to peace with that fundamental dissonance and go at it another way than the way that we have been going at it for decades. I am sorry for it, indeed, and I love you in a deep fashion: but you have no idea, nor could you have an idea what it might feel like to live in an image of life that is not an image of one's own making, or at least of one's own authentically equal co-making.
Gerda - I love what you wrote. With the second notice from his L, you said exactly what needed to be said. It is his project, he knows where you stand.
I read what he wrote a couple of times. I now have a headache and am confused. I even had to look up quotidian. If one takes the time to cypher through all the big words you can see some of his thinking, and the confusion.
And five minutes later I just got this one. The amazing thing is that the last line is EXACTLY how I am living and exactly what I have an idea about, but I guess I had better not say that.
This reminded me of something.
It looks like you are most definitely heading for a conflict with H. “I had better not say that” is really good advice from yourself.
Let him talk and send notes, you document, keep records, and say little. Hold your information close to your chest, keep it for later.
Gerda, I understand you have financial problems. However, I strongly urge you to hire a lawyer for this. Get a loan, find the money, whatever it takes, get a lawyer representing your side - I think you are going to need one.
Show your L the documents and tell him what has been going on. He will give you the legal viewpoint you are going to require.
I was astounded by all the legal possibilities during W’s and my separation - I had no idea of all the different things people could do - waive rights, custody, pension, house, accounts, alimony, and so. You can settle on the value of the house and items, you can go 50/50 or make your own split.
I think your H is looking for “his share” and not wanting to settle things amicable. Don’t give up hope, he may want something bad enough to give other things in return - You most assuredly need a lawyer for this.
Do not sign anything until your L has looked it over.
Gerda, I’m very proud of you. You posts show strength and clear thinking. After BD4 you have quickly picked yourself up, dusted off, and what looks like to me - rolled up your sleeves to do what you need to do.
Hang in there girl, you’re doing great.
DnJ
Gerda,
Like DnJ, I had to re-read his posting several times and looks things up to better understand what he was saying. The man is out there for sure. Unfortunately, he is right about one thing...you both are seeing the situation w/two different sets of eyes.
I know that you are having a lot of financial issues right now....but you need to hire a lawyer. This man will talk over top a judge and lawyer and they'll be shaking their heads up and down because he comes off as a high ranking scholar. Trust me, you need a lawyer. Do you have any legal aid places in your area that can assist you for the time being? You need legal help now!
I also agree that he wants his fair share regardless of whether or not he's put money in the kitty over the years. He's not going to be easy to negotiate with...but there has to be something that he really, really wants that you can use in the negotiation. What could it be?
You have doing a fabulous job of staying the course, knowing when to remain silent and also when to speak up. Now, it's time to roll those sleeves up and document everything and find a good lawyer.
Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Stay positive!
I second DNJ’s advice.
I think you need a L.
You are in my prayers.
DnJ, Gordie, Job, thank you all so much for helping me so much and for the support and taking the time to look up vocab words. : )
I am if anything more intellectual than he and I can assure you that the words are big but say nothing. I am just surprised that to you they don't look completely insane and that you feel somewhat impressed by them. To me they are ravings with good vocabulary.
The question is, would a judge find these notes crazy? He hasn't done anything for the kids in years and for the first three years of the crisis, we usually didn't know where he was. Now I still don't know where he is most of the time but at night he tries to connect with them a little and then in the morning with my D as she wakes early. He keeps leaving her notes with some breakfast item he made. But if I leave her with him at night to go to my class or church, I come back at 10 or 10:30 and he is passed out on the couch with an empty bottle of wine nearby and she is watching TV, not ready for bed at all, etc.
I mean, what I am documenting? I have a huge file of the crazy e-mails. He drinks a bottle of wine every night. The rest is just stories with no proof. I have friends who could come to court though they will not want to, to attest to the fact that I am a solo parent. He keeps saying I prevented him but until last year I was always asking him. Even when my D was sick at school and had to be picked up whenI was at work, I wouldn't be able to reach him or he would say no and I would have to ask my neighbor to go. But lately he is trying to be with them more so I don't know if judge would just say, "Well, he's trying now, so you have to let him."
Can I ask for a psych evaluation? DnJ, why didn't you?
Today I asked both kids about if they would want to stay with me if Papa "took me to court or something." I still haven't mentioned the word divorce, and if you notice in his notes, he doesn't use the word with me either! Both kids said they wanted to be with me though my daughter was confused and got very scared. Then she pointed out that it wouldn't even be that different if we were divorced and then she said, "If I stayed with him, would he take money out of my wallet?" because of his doing that twice (not sure if I ever posted that story).
I can't believe these words are coming out of my mouth. I keep feeling like it's a nightmare I can't wake up from.
And it's nice of you to say I am doing well but I am basically a puddle on the floor. I am still so attached that I kept reading the two places where he said he loved me and feeling hope! He hasn't said he loved me in years. And I felt like the second note pointed to his confusion and the fact that he doesn't even understand what divorce is, in a certain way.
There is no way I can get a lawyer. I literally can't afford to both buy groceries and pay the mortgage. I have been pro se for my other case for over a year and I know what to do. I don't have to sign anything and can drag this to trial. But if I have to go to trial, I will try to get one.
Hello Gerda.
It is good you asked the kids what they thought and who they would want to live with.
I think you should change how you approach this subject with kids. The “Took me to court or something” is vague. Kids are pretty smart and can figure a lot of stuff out, but they also have a lot of questions. You are the one who has to answer them, and provide guidance.
Neither you or H has used the word divorce. So let’s leave it out of the conversation for now. Ask them who they would want to live with if Dad left me, or if Dad and I lived separately. There is not much point in sugarcoating it too much, if you end up in court a judge is going to ask your kids bluntly, he needs to know their wishes. Might as well let them get used to the idea - you will probably be surprised at how quickly your kids figure this out. (I had these difficult conversations so I know how bad you feel, it does get better - honest)
I understand you feeling like a puddle on the floor, been there, hated it. Yes, you are very attached right now. You re-reading what H wrote is not helping by the way. Focus and work on detachment.
I can't believe these words are coming out of my mouth. I keep feeling like it's a nightmare I can't wake up from.
Oh, how I remember the nightmare. (((Gerda)))
To be accurate and helpful towards getting through this. It is a nightmare and you cannot wake up. You need to accept it.
You will learn to accept things that are unacceptable, to forgive things that are unforgivable. You will find your way out of the nightmare.
Can I ask for a psych evaluation? DnJ, why didn't you?
A psych evaluation - why didn’t I ask for one?
Well a few things. My sitch is different, I and the kids found out right after a wonderful Thanksgiving Diner. We had zero seconds of notice and saw no signs of the impending destruction heading our way. You have had H unraveling five years.
I did talk to W about my concerns for her mental health, the possibility of menopause or other brain chemistry imbalance - didn’t go so well.
She did admit that she did at one point thought she was going crazy, but a crazy person wouldn’t think that, so therefore she was sane.
I did speak to the medical community a bit. People have the right to be crazy. You cannot force someone to get help. No matter how much you may think they need it.
Legally it is a tightrope. Irrational people can make binding decisions, insane people cannot. Her L and two financial planners signed to the fact that she was in sound mind to sign her separation.
Our doctor who has know both of us for years was shocked with what she had done. He did speak to her, push things as far as he could, but in her mind nothing is wrong. He did tell me he would get her in to see a psychiatrist if I could get her to ask him. Of course she would not listen to me, the siren’s call from OM was just to powerful.
A person who is a danger to themselves or others is a different story. That however is not my case, W currently does not pose any danger that I am aware of. I hope so anyhow, she has a restricted firearm license now. (She never hunted or want to fire guns before)
The short of it is. W left her children and hasn’t looked back. There is little doubt she is irrational, healthy people just don’t do that.
My sitch was very cut and dried. It is so obvious how mixed up she is. I read so much, and learned so much. I knew she has to do this, there is no stopping her - for goodness sakes she threw away her own children, what could I possible do? How could I fix this? Well of course I can’t fix her, I didn’t break her. So I let her go.
When she only took some money and left everything and signed full custody of the kids to me, I was heartbroken. I knew that was the best thing (well next to the best thing) for me and the children. I had to stop worrying about her choices and start worrying about mine.
A psych evaluation is an attempt at trying to fix our spouse, to point out what is wrong with them. They don’t want that, they will not accept that, they will use that as justification against you.
That is why.
Gerda there is a difficult journey ahead of you and I pray for the best outcome for you and your kids.
DnJ
Psst Gerda - Job’s going to tell you it’s time to start a new thread.
Gerda,
I don't think that a psych evaluation request would fly. Has he done bodily harm to himself, the children or you? Is he talking of suicide? Putting forth such a request may anger him even further and who knows how he would be to live w/then. You are trying to fix his problems and you can't. He's seeing life through different glasses and he's not happy w/the way things are. He's just not a happy man and the only thing he sees as relief is to separate everything, get his share of the "money" and run. He really and truly doesn't care where the money comes from just as long as he gets his hands on it. He looks at you as an authority figure, most likely a parent. Teenagers don't appreciate parents being in control of things. They think they know what is best for them.
Start documenting his behavior around the kids, i.e., you came home and found his fast asleep on the sofa and your daughter wasn't in bed. Document that. You need justification as to why he shouldn't have full time custody. They need to see dates, times, and behavior. If there is a pattern, then there is cause for concern about him having full time custody. Trust me, documenting his actions, comments and behavior will go a long way in proving your case that he's probably not a good fit for full time custody.
I know that your head is spinning and none of this is what you want, but you need to find a way to accept that what he feels are his feelings and his wants are his own. Gerda, you can't fix him. He has to do that himself. The only person that you can control right now is you and how you react to his crazy making behavior. Your role right now is to stay strong and fight for your children.
New Thread:
Brave Little Gerda Gazes Into the Endless Tundra