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#19: patience, trust..and hope do not have time to recap the whole story but the current status is w dropped the D and OM2 at the beginning of the year
We are still living together
She is inching her way back towards me and the family but very slowly
Sjohn6, yes grass does grow faster
But trying to stay positive
Gerda, glad you are inspired
Sometimes I just do not know what to say so I keep it short
D N J daughter still has anger and resentment
I talked to her about what is currently going on
D B coach encouraged I keep it to facts and no editorial
W Dropped d dropped OM2
W does not want to be divorced not married
I still believe in our m and hope we can put things back together some day
Gordie, I think you are doing a great job.
I see hope in your wife's recent changes, but of course expectations cause problems, so I hesitate to give anything too much weight.
Hang in there.
You are doing a great job at staying positive. I think the fact that after all this time that you still want to put things back together is a testament to your love and commitment. I love my W but worry that as time drags on my desire for that will start to diminish. You are an inspiration to me because I dont want to feel that way.
You mention D still has anger and resentment towards W. Do you know why specifically? I mean Ive read your sitch so I could pick out plenty of reason why she would, but do you know specifically which parts she holds the resentment towards?
D has been away for the last few years
So I think this transformation of her mother
Is incomprehensible
She also has a strong sense of right and wrong
And sees things in black and white
And can be judgmental
And unforgiving
D sounds like a strong woman. Im soft hearted but admire that kind of no nonsense confidence.
Gordie, you do a great job of validating and not engaging in the nonsense. When I did read the bit about your w wanting to vacation in a war zone because it's cheap, I did laugh out loud.
I do not miss hearing all the illogical thinking. It was always so weird coming out of a seemingly grown person.
Keep up the good work.
Gordie, that war zone thing really was a good one. My H offers a lot of those things. When my S12 stopped going to school, he said I should stop trying to coerce him into doing anything and should let S12 "write his own destiny." I think he confused himself with our S and me with his own mother or maybe a variety of confusions all at once.
My MIL is visiting right now and it has actually been helpful for me to see how horribly he treats her a lot of the time, when he is cycling into madness. He is like a mean teenager to her though he is 51. (He is always this way to me, but it is surprising to see him be so rude to his mom.) I get a little embarrassed but she almost doesn't seem to notice how crazy it is. And it helps me to see that he is living deep in some teen nightmare, that it's not about me!
I do love your patience and clear mind, I am trying to follow suit with varying degrees of success.
Hawho and Gerda
Thanks
When she used to say crazy I used to point it out to her or argue with her
That did me no good
Now I just listen and try hard not to express what I really think
And usually the crazy is never brought up again
No war zone vacation for me and the kids
I did book a summer beach vacation for the family and w wants to join us
We did not go on one last summer and the kids really missed it
I hesitated doing something for this summer too
But decided I would go ahead
A little anxious because b d two years ago was right after summer vacation and a lot of family time
But cannot let that anxiety get the better of me
Life has to go on
I cannot live my life on the sidelines waiting for her to come around
Gotta keep moving on
Well w has definitely warmed up to me
I got an I love you for the first time since around Christmas when it caused a huge blow up
I am usually reserved but she was hot and heavy with OM2 and she said I love you
And I just ripped into her and told her no you do not love me
If you loved me you would not treat me this way
She kept insisting no I really do love you
Which made me actually raise my voice and scream stop saying that
Well it is six months later and she said I love you
I just accepted it and let it hang there
I did not say I love you back
She gave me a hug and a kiss on the cheek
W also came to sit next to me at an end of school kid event
Together in public for the first time in several months
However I could tell w was not enjoying herself
I sensed she wanted to leave early but I said nothing and she made it to the end
W birthday and our anniversary are coming up
So will need to figure out what to do
Stay strong my brother...you are doing great. You and your family are in my prayers daily.
Gordie you are doing great. The only advice, for what it is worth, is change NOTHING. Whatever you are doing has been working. And everything I have seen and read says when they are on the edge, or as they come closer and we really want to act or are worried that if we do not do the right thing they may run away that is EXACTLY the time to be absolutely still.
Anything you change or do can be perceived as pressure, and if and when she is ready to actually come fully back she will do it on her own time and terms and it SHOULD BE without you having to push or worry about it.
So keep on walking on, live you life, let her walk along if and when she wants but do not break stride.
W birthday and our anniversary are coming up
So will need to figure out what to do
Low key and neutral. She hasn't won you back as of yet.
I'm glad you are facing your own ghosts. It's tough to do.
I agree w/Andrew...low key and very neutral. Nothing over the top, a nice generic card and a gift card might do the trick. Nothing too personal or romantic for now. She hasn't done the hard, necessary work to win you back.
Gordie, I agree that you shouldn't go crazy with gift showers but only to protect yourself a little, so that you don't have to feel too much the pull of that expression of love. I don't think you can worry about what she thinks or deserves. And I don't think a gift should ever be about what someone deserves. That's not a gift, but a salary.
What I have always done on birthdays and anniversaries and Christmas is buy something extremely thoughtful (as far as being something I knew H specifically likes) that didn't cost much -- e.g., my H really likes good salt so I would buy a nice sea salt. If I couldn't bear to write a card from the heart, I would copy a poem by a poet I knew he liked and just write, "Happy Birthday," on the bottom. But sometimes if it felt right, I would write a line to remember a cherished memory or say that I am glad he is in my life. Before MLC, we used to write letters to each other on these kinds of days, and I wrote him a sonnet for almost every Valentine's Day and Birthday and anniversary. I don't do that anymore though I did write maybe one or two over the last five years, and they were not lovey-dovey but more about waiting. He never says anything but I see that he saves these things in his drawer. Along with his wedding ring.
One year I color copied an anniversary card he had given me and which I had saved. That is kind of a no-no in the DB world but it still felt right.
I guess what I mean is that I am more interested in pleasing God than my H or anyone else on this earth. So I think of an idea and then I pray about it or even try to find an answer in scripture. I might say the rosary as I think about it, or just sing praise songs as I bike around the city with that decision in mind. Sometimes I feel that God is reminding me to let go and let God so I do less or almost nothing. Other times I feel like he wants me to be a wife even if my H is not being a husband and so I do something very simple and understated but thoughtful, as described above.
My H's bday is on Monday and there is Father's Day on Sunday. But I just had to give my H money out of my savings and it was very awful the way he handled it. I was thinking about posting about it on my thread but so far I didn't as I am a little tired of hearing myself talk about it. But anyway, because of that, my idea of giving him something he really needed but couldn't afford is out the window as I can't afford anything at all and I felt that he was so wrong that I don't want to encourage that. But I also didn't want his bad choices to interfere with my ability to show care on those days, especially because I want my kids to always know that we show love and care on those days no matter what, unconditionally. So I bought him some little slightly luxury items I know he uses (coconut chips, candles) but only spent ten bucks for the bday and the same for Father's Day, and I will probably copy a poem for these since I don't think I can muster the care to write a poem or note from my own words.
I hope that offers one other outlook on that topic for you, my friend!
Oh and also I think you are handling the vacation thing PERFECTLY. Even if you W is weird and awful on the trip or after it, I think our kids generally prefer to have our spouses there. Just keep taking lots of long walks or other ways to have time to yourself, pray every morning and every night for courage to put God's way first, and I think that however it goes will be the best way, even if it's not what you would have designed. Just remember not to put a burden on yourself to do or say anything that will make it go better this time. That's out of your hands. Just keep being the amazing Gordie you are and let the rest happen as it happens and try to keep peace and trust in your heart. I have had to do these kinds of trips many times over the last 5 years, and sometimes it is awful but most of the time there are bright moments-- and if I remember to just keep the focus on the kids having fun and building memories that include a present and not absent dad, it goes better than if I worry about what I am doing or how what I am doing can change what my H does.
(((((GORDIE!))))))))
Gordie, Happy Father's Day! Here is my card to you and to DnJ, my fave dads.
I am thinking of you and DnJ today because you are the best dads I know and give me faith and hope in this world. I know some other dads that are a little like you but none who are doing what you do with the nightmare of MLC in the background. Your kids faced something so horrible -- in a way what our kids face is worse than just being part of a historical event, that is beyond any of our control. Our kids have to contend with the CHOICE of the MLCer to abandon the family in many ways. Your love is therefore even more important than in a "regular" family, it is the place of rest in a tempest.
You and DnJ are my Father Heroes as well as my own friends.
The Thread Goblins have blocked the poem. Will try posting the poem separately but if it doesn't work, it's called Axe Handles and is by Gary Snyder, you can easily find it via google.
RESTORED POSTING FOR GERDA
Axe Handles
One afternoon the last week in April Showing Kai how to throw a hatchet One-half turn and it sticks in a stump. He recalls the hatchet-head
Without a handle, in the shop
And go gets it, and wants it for his own. A broken-off axe handle behind the door Is long enough for a hatchet,
We cut it to length and take it
With the hatchet head
And working hatchet, to wood block. There I begin to shape the old handle With the hatchet, and the phrase
First learned from Ezra Pound
Rings in my ears!
"When making an axe handle
the pattern is not far off. And I say this to Kai
"Look: We'll shape the handle By checking the handle
Of the axe we cut with-"
And he sees. And I hear it again:
It's in Lu Ji's Wen Fu, fourth century A.D. "Essay on Literature"-in the Preface: "In making the handle
Of an axe
By cutting wood with an axe
The model is indeed near at hand." My teacher Shih-hsiang Chen Translated that and taught it years ago And I see: Pound was an axe, Chenwasanaxe,Iamanaxe
And my son a handle, soon
To be shaping again, model
And tool, craft of culture,
How we go on.
-- Gary Snyder
Happy Farther's Day Gordie.
Enjoy your day with your big crew.
is it too late to weigh in?
low key for birthday.
casual dinner out if she wants for anniversary, maybe. dunno. you want to acknowledge that she's still there, so i'd say something commensurate with the level of effort you deem she's put in, and still respectful if this makes any sense at all?
I think there's a delicate balance between making her work for it and being so aloof that she gives up out of hopelessness and despair.
make sense?
or did I just add more confusion?
remember: I am divorced,lol I did not save my marriage.
That's my ongoing caveat.
happy father's day !!! xoxoxo
Andrew and Job and Gerda and Butterfly
No not too late for b day advice
Thank you and am taking the low key approach
I bought a low key gift that I know she will like
And will ask her what she wants to do
So as to let her have some input
Now is not the time for surprises
DNJ
Father s day was in the end a good day
I woke up grumpy and frustrated about my life
But got over my self pity and decided to enjoy my day
I think I expected w to plan something which she did not
Those darn expectations
So I made my own plan with the kids
W decided to join us
We spent a whole day together
And I did not walk on eggshells
Or let myself revolve around her
Just let myself enjoy these wonderful children
And put them to sleep
The house was quiet and it was just the two of us
And she did not run off to her room as usual
So I asked her if she wanted a drink
And we had a glass of wine
And chatted about nothing in particular
Just enjoyed bejng with one another
It felt slightly more than platonic but not romantic or sexual
We said goodnight and hugged and kissed on the cheek
And then we went to our respective rooms and went to sleep
Gordie your day sounded peaceful, you and your children enjoying time together.
The frustration and self pity you felt, I get that also. More often than I like and usually due to unmet expectations.
You are doing very good, bouncing back quicker from these emotional dips. I know you know that, but it does not hurt have it confirmed by an outside source, by a friend.
(That is me in case I was too vague
)
As for W, things look to still be progressing, slowly, and forward. An evening together, a glass of wine, and a friendly chat. Things have come a long way. You have come a long way.
Keep doing what your doing.
DnJ
Gord, I'm glad to see that things are looking up. Thanks for coming by my thread and checking in on me. I had a good fathers day for the most part. I woke up extremely early and I was the only one up for about 4 hours. It was nice, but I also got into my own head a bit thinking about the past. I know that it was a day for the kids to thank their fathers, but when the family is still not complete it was still hard.
Keep doing what you are doing because it seems to be right. God bless you guys.
It really does sound like you did everything perfectly on that day, Gordie. You had the temptation of pity and you squashed it like a bug. You chose joy, peace, goodness. And all kinds of good things came out of that, including an expectation-free evening with a lady who seemed curious about you. Starting from less than zero is a good thing if you can manage the humility and patience it requires, you were a champ that night, good for you!
Gordie,
Hope you had a great Fathers Day.
Been reading your sitch, your patience is admirable. Looks like you have a good grasp on how to best proceed in your sitch. Keep at it.
Hey there, Gordie. I was thinking about you and your situation today and wanted to touch base and see how things were going in your world. I hope all is as well as can be expected and that you are enjoying your day.
SBJ Gerda Clyde SJohn6
Thanks for the encouragement
I do not have a lot to report
Things are chugging along
Thinking of DNJ and trying to see things as they are neither better nor worse than reality
Positives
W no long talking about d for last 6 months
W no longer interested in OMs
W spending less time with her single friends but still some time
W has moved from thinking of herself 100 percent of the time to maybe 80 percent of the time meaning she sometimes will now ask me about my day or what is going on in my life maybe once or twice a week as opposed to just talking about herself
We are friendly with one another
W says she is working on her issues and takes some responsibility in the breakdown of the M where before it was all my fault
W is no longer secretive with phone and computer
Negatives
We have no physical relationship and sleep separately
W is still competitive with me and sometimes feels the need to pump herself up and put me down
W still has a hard time communicating directly about her wants and needs and will use the kids to do so
We still have very little family time meaning when I am not working and with kids she goes off and does her own thing
So am patiently living my life
Yes I do hope she will rejoin me fully one day
But she is no longer running away
Still trying to keep expectstions at zero
She could keep moving towards me
Or she could cycle the other way like Cali warned
W birthday was low key
She wanted to spend the day by herself
And then had a family dinner
And a small gift she really liked
Afterwards she asked to spend some time with me
And we talked and went grocery shopping
All advice welcome
Good to hear from you, Gordie. Sounds like you are doing well, all things considered. I wish I had some advice for you, but how about some encouragement instead. You are handling yourself admirably and I respect the path you have chosen. The decisions you are making are making it easier for me to figure out what path I want to follow. When this thing has played itself out, we will have no regrets as we did everything we could to make the right decisions at the right time. You are good people and everyone that interacts with you knows that about you based on the way you carry yourself. Keep chugging along, things will only be like this for so long, and they will get better regardless of what happens. Go team Gordie!!
Sounds like things might be heading in a positive direction. You seem to have grasped to concept of NO expectations better than most. You are a rock and for that should be commended. I will continue to keep prayers flowing in your direction.
Gordie - first off I'd like to say that if I was in your shoes that I would be doing the same thing. I don't know if that is true or not, you are a model of someone who understands at his core patience, duty and love even if I am sure you struggle with this.
Blunt talk time.
One key difference between our situations I think is the fact that my now ex found a much higher value OM than your's did. We are both I believe moderately successful professionals and that's a hard lifestyle to give up. My ex works and makes a reasonable income on her own where your's has been dependent on your income. That gave my ex a cushion to be able to be independent even before I started sending her a monthly cheque.
Yes, there were old unresolved "family of origin" issues in both of our cases. We all have them though. You and I included but we deal with them as best we can.
I presume that menopause hasn't quite hit yet but when it does, she may well backslide significantly. If she hasn't dealt with what she wants in life by then she quite well go off dancing with the fairies again. Especially if she finds a higher value target.
At the end of both volumes of the Histories of Don Quixote (yes I will get this entire forum to read those darned books
) he returns to his native persona of Senor Alonso Quixano who regrets his previous madness and at one point promises to burn his books on chivalry. I find these days that I am more Quixano than Quixote.
I do believe that in many ways you are seeing clearly what is immediately in front of you. Like many of us, you have problems seeing the future. Something that none of us can truly see until it has become the past.
I am just speaking to you from a future that has happened to me but perhaps may never befall you. There are giants, wizards and dark pits in front of you perhaps.
From what I have read here and elsewhere, unless she reaches a point where she atones for her transgressions she continues to be susceptible to another fall from grace. In most cases I have read - which I am sure is a small segment of the real world - it requires as is discussed here a hitting of "rock bottom" which will create a change in the selfishness that led our partners along the paths they traveled.
But - rest assured that you yourself continue to have my admiration for your patience and fortitude.
#TeamGordie
Gordie I really like the clarity of your positive / negative lists - very accurate.
I admire the path you are walking, a most admirable and patient one.
You are doing so very well.
I have been thinking of how to keep my expectation at zero. I know you also suffer from expectationincreaseswhenitshouldbezeroitis.
So I have been trying to look at this accurately and without bias (btw thanks for the acknowledgement above - I really do hope it helps).
What I have so far. Expectations is hope with a timeline attached to it.
Hope and expectation are so closely tied to each other.
I am a pretty hopeful guy. I remember listing a few hopes in discussion with Mach1. I still do hope for W to get well, to repair her R with her children, to dump OM, to want to recommit to M, to put our family back together, and so on.
Do I expect it? In other words do I hope it happens within the next month, 6 months, year? No.
I have a great deal of hope that things will turn around. I even have faith that things will happen. But I do not expect it to happen.
It looks like a conflicting state to be in. I hope with all my heart and soul that W gets better, for her sake, for my kids sake. I pray for that. However, I do not expect it to really happen. To state it more accurately I do not know when it might happen.
That is how I am working on keeping my expectations at zero. I hope she gets better, or comes to grad, or whatever - but I do not know if / when it will happen.
I choose to hope without an end date or timeline. I do see how I could get stuck in this eternal hopefulness. So I also choose to accept that there is no expectation for any of my hopes to come true.
I wonder if that made any sense?
I hope so.
Sjohn6 curious what you think is applicable to your situation
SBJ please please please keep praying think you are closer to the man upstairs than this stray sheep
Andrew agree things might be different if w had hooked up with a sugar daddy which I find distasteful to consider but know it is true
DNJ wow that was profound
You put your finger on hope and expectation in a way I never have been able to do
I remember early on debating on here if hope was good or bad
At the time I decided hope was a four letter word which kept crushing my soul
I never considered that hope and expectation could be separated which is a lot to ponder
Thank you kind sir for sharing your wisdom
Gordie, please, please do not do yourself the grave disservice of thinking that your wife only gave up OM because he wasn't a sugar daddy and her business isn't enough to support her.
You had the courage and strength to 180 and GAL, and showed her that marriage to you could be a new and different thing. That you were capable of change and growth.
Don't undervalue that.
Will she ultimately fully commit to marriage? I don't know. Progress is there, but slow, and I don't know what bends in the road will come.
But your strength and willingness to change and grow have had an impact.
Don't doubt that.
Keep GAL. Keep using 180s in situations where you'd like to see improvement.
These are both key even once the relationship fully reconciles.
You got this.
Its hard to describe what I find applicable in your situation to mine. I think it has to do with mindset and perspective. Our Ws havent followed the same path, but I read a lot of my own thoughts and feelings in your posts. I feel like we see things similarly. With what you post and the way you articulate your feelings, I feel like much of the advice you are given helps me too. I feel myself start to let go and begin to think there is no hope in my situation for any kind of recovery, and then I see you were in that place too, but have moved past that in to a different place. The movement I see in your situation helps me maintain a sense of sanity. I dont even mean positive movement with your R, although you seem to have that at a snails pace, I just mean any movement at all.
Like I said, kind of hard to describe how I view our situations as similar, but I think maybe I just see us as similar. I hope your day is going well.
Gordie,
I think the best thing we can do for ourselves is to be selfish. By that I mean focus entirely on ourselves and leave the MLCr to their own journey.
The truth is the old relationship is dead.
Frankly, if it had been working for any of us we wouldn't be here, so that's not a bad thing.
The great unknown is what the new relationship will become, what you are co-creating together. In order to co-create, there needs to be someone to create with.
In the absence of that, create yourself. You're doing a good job of that but I'd like to hear more about what you're doing separate from the marriage and kids. What GALs are you actively pursuing?
Life is short. How do you want to live your life? Forget about wife and her process/journey and focus on yourself. I hope I don't sound harsh because I really think you're doing a great job and there is incremental progress, as to be expected. But that's really my point - if we focus on the progress of the MLCr we will lose our minds. It's like watching paint dry or grass grow. Much better to note and move on with GALs.
I hope I'm making sense. xoxoxoxo
Rose
Thank you so much
You were one of the first people to help me when I first came here
Your observations about my situation cut like a knife through my fog
So your words mean so much
I have looked in the mirror to face some ugly truths about myself
Aboutbmy shortcomings as a H and father
And sought to change my ways
And be a better man
I do believe that made a difference
And as you remind me there is more work to do
Sjohn6
I wish we could meet in person
One of these days
Until then I am glad my words encourage you
Butterfly
Thank you
I think j you are so right
The old r is dead
I want a new r
But I do not yet have a co creator
And trying too hard with someone who is not is sad
At least she is present
Working on myself
The self improvement projects not related to a and kids
Better diet and lost 15 pounds
More consustent gym time
More responsibilities at work
Several home improvement projects
Have slacked off on solo outings
Big one for me which may sound odd
I have started listening to the music I like again
I realized w and I have different taste in music
And I stopped listening to what I like for the last 20 years
Been fun rediscovering songs where I know every word
Bttrfly's advice is so spot on. But, it's also so very hard to really do with the live-in MLCer, I think. As much as I detached, I think I was still peeking peripherally at my ex through laced fingers.
It's so important for us to learn who we are separate from our spouses- from rediscovering old music to discovering new interests. There's not a thing you can do for her so shine that lens on yourself and your kids. Invest in yourself. You'll be happy with the returns.
excellent!!!!
I too have been re-discovering how much I love music. I've gone to several concerts in the past three years. I took myself to see Taj Mahal last summer. Best date I've had in years, lolol. I'd always wanted to see him, and exh kept putting it off. Dude's in his 70s, how long ya gonna wait? Took myself, had a ball. Have several fun things lined up through December. Feels good to do this - it's important to have FUN, especially when faced with such sadness at home. Well, don't know how others categorize it but I think the MLCr's journey is very sad to witness. Glad I'm not carrying THAT burden. Yikes.
GAL is so very important to figuring out who YOU are, separate from your children and your spouse. It's all part of becoming the person you were always meant to be, who, incidentally is someone only a fool would leave.
Happy 4th Gordie!
Hawho you are of course correct that with my live in I am constantly seeing her and interacting with her and evaluating how she is doing on herself and how our relationship is developing
Knowing who I am independent of w has been critical and a learning process and truly a lot of has been learned from b d when I truly thought my life was over without my w
Having been thrust into the reality of that potential outcome almost broke me and i day almost because I am still here right
Butterfly that is awesome and do enjoy both recorded music and of course live music the latter of which I indulge in if I am away from w but I guess I feel like it is not right for me to go out solo right now so maybe if I want to do things independent of her that she has never liked instead of giving those things up I still plan them for myself and invite her with no expectations and be totally okay with her saying no and me going without her which is a little tricky
Journaling
Bumped into a friend of w not a best friend but a good friend who is happily married and while we have never discussed it I suspect she suspects something if only because w and I were previously inseparable and she has probably not seen the two of us together in over a year
Well she asked if w and I would like to join her and her h for dinner and I said to check with w
Friend did so and to my surprise w said yes and we all got together and all was surprisingly pretty normal
All four of us ate and drank and had a good evening out and then w was still friendly when we got home and not distancing herself or running off to be by herself
Patience patience patience
yes be patient. know that she's trying this on for size to see if it fits. no expectations. focus on you and the kids. i sound like a broken record.
Met with one of my iRL buddies for lunch whose w also left him five years ago to run off with OM and has yet to sign the d papers so he knows exactly what I am going through
We discusssd the latest developments and he thought I looked good and was handling things well
He was baffled at some of the weird stuff I just cannot write on here
He said the only thing I can do about that stuff is listen
His assessment is w is still searching for something but that things are not terrible and in fact getting better
She tried OMs which did not work and is now searching elsewhere
Like all of you he encouraged patience and that this cannot last forever
He said it will be longer than six months maybe a few more years but not ten years and could I keep this up for an extended period of time
He said I will likely never get the remorse and apology I am looking for so I should just drop that desire
He knows my kids so we spent a long time talking about them and how this has affected them and how important it is for me to stay in this for them
RESTORED POSTING FOR GERDA
Gordie, I was thinking of you and DnJ and what you said about music last night -- it was the usual sad show at my house so I jumped in the car with D9 at 9 pm and raced across town to the fireworks, thinking alright, if these idiot men I live with wont do anything fun, I dont have to wait around, and we made it across town, found a parking spot and ran to the river, we sat on the grass with the breeze off the water and the lights of the city and everyone happy and in unison about something beautiful and all the boats passing -- I felt so strongly that I was at least making a beautiful memory for D9 and then this song came on on the way home with my on-last-legs car chugging its way back across town. I blasted it and started singing along though I had never heard it before, and I felt like God heard my heart bleeding just exactly as I want to be understood -- you have to listen to this song, it is the story we are living -- if you google this phrase, I think you will go right to it -- Flora Cash - You're Somebody Else (Lyrics). I will post this same note on mine and DnJ's thread too. This song is for all of us LBSers!
Gerda
Enjoyed the song and was surprised that is what you listen to which was extra special to get to know you better
Journaling
W has been picking more fights with me usually on issues where I have a clear conscience so just listen and defuse
This is a 180 for me from when I would spin and defend myself and try to point out the flaws in her attack
It still hurts that she feels I am the source of her unhappiness but whereas it used to be 100 percent my fault at least now she acknowledges other factors
Another good thing is this allows her to vent and then she too releases her anger and recovers instead of giving me the silent treatment or staying angry for days
Shake it off and keep moving forward
Hey Gordie,
This is Leahsue, and I've been gone a long time. I just logged back in to see how everyone is doing..... I just haven't seen many names I recognize yet, but I did just start looking. I will read up on your story, and see how things are going for you. I hope you are happy, and doing well. Hugs.......
Gordie, you are an inspiration in your ability to not justify yourself.
I know it hurts. You are brave to keep walking through the hurt. I hope you feel God is with you as you walk.
I am very happy that you liked the song! Didn't you find the lyrics to be so apt as far as our lives?
I am very curious why you were surprised that I listen to music like that. Is it because I am such a devout little flower? I don't really listen to Christian music except Jenn Johnson and a few others from Bethel. I like loud heavy music like Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc. when I write especially. I love Florence and the Machine and Aurora and Sia and Lana Del Ray and all those kinds of ladies. I listen to some rap and hip hop, mostly the artsy kind that would be in the Colors Project on Youtube but I love for example the new song by JayZ and Beyonce! One of the happiest nights of my life was going alone to hear Ray La Montagne at Carnegie Hall and I get to see him again at Radio City this fall!
I love to be by myself and go to movies or to hear music alone when I can, which is almost never now but that's what I did before kids. My mother bought me the Ray LM ticket for my birthday some years back and then something went wrong and they sent me two tickets by way of apology, but I really wanted to go alone so badly that I sold the other ticket on craigslist. I had to pretend that I wasn't going because I didn't want to have to talk to the person to whom I sold the ticket. So at the concert I never said a word to the person sitting next to me just in case she would be able to figure it out! It was such an amazing concert, I felt like I was flying for days after.
Wow, that was a long ramble.
Gerd
Hahaha
Yes think I got a different impression of you
I have never gone to the movies or a concert by myself
Always with someone
Journaling
So topic of church today was when God does not answer your prayers in the way you want and the idea that we are made perfect in our weakness
I am feeling more hopeful that my w is still baking but has been making more progress on her own journey
Some days she wants to spend a lot of time together and honestly I sometimes find that to be too much and do need some alone time
Question is who is this new woman who rejects all of her former beliefs and values
Second question is I too have changed and who am I now and what do I want
What remains the same are my own fundamental beliefs one of which is I committed to this woman for life before God
Truth be told I struggle with this and what this all means
Maybe there is a happily ever after with reconciliation and a better marriage
But there is also a real prospect of divorce
And another real prospect of a loveless and sexless marriage
Trying to be realistic and patient and faithful
Just want th support what ciluzen wrote to faceman
The importance of letting the MLC spouse speak and feel heard
What C wrote has worked for me
W throughout her crisis has been a talker including blaming me for the breakdown of the marriage and criticizing my parenting and rewriting our history and that the world is flat etc
And the mistake I made at the beginning and maybe the big mistake of my old marriage was not being a good listener
Not being a good listener included arguing and apologizing and defending and interjecting and offering advice and suggestions
I learned over time that silence is my friend
I just need to sit and listen
My boundary was not listening to anything about OMs
But yes what ciluzen said was true for me in that she really does want to be heard and feel that yes she can feel safe saying anything without me reacting
Sometimes this is for two minutes and at other times an hour or more
Personal opinion Gordie: Is a sexless, loveless marriage really a marriage?
Ginger
No to me that is not a marriage
But that is kind of what I have now
Gordie, if you are a Christian I defy you to say your marriage is loveless. In a certain way, your love is greater than than it ever was when it was returned. It is easy to love when you are loved back. What you are doing now is perhaps a truer love. Your love is only enabled by something divine in you because your fleshly self could never love her now. Don't listen to the lies of the enemy in your head telling you about those future possibilities, there may be an outcome you can't imagine, and God already knows what it is. Keep being patient. Did you ever read The Hobbit? I am thinking of them in the dark forest not realizing they were near the end, and doing something that prolonged their time in the darkness for a long while because they lost faith. You don't know the end of this story, your mind does not need to go there right now. You are not at the end of your rope yet, so just be where you are and don't let those lies loom up in front of you and offer you despair. You are in the light even if only God can see you walking in it and surrounded by darkness. We can see it too.
Hi Gordie, I came and "stalked" you after you posted in my thread. I wanted to read more about your situation.
Just wanted to say that I like reading about your progress. You seem to have made a lot of positive changes, and even though your W doesn't react well to them, that may change. I feel like it takes a while of seeing someone who has changed before we really believe it.
So keep it up!
Leah sue wow I missed your post before hope you are well
Over rainbow thanks for checking in we have a tight group over here in MLC
I do read over in newcomers sometimes to chime in and it is nice to hear about quick wins but over here we are all in it for the long haul for better or worse richer or poorer etc
Gerda that is so kind of you to say and I had not thought of it that way that yes maybe there is more love now than ever
Just seems that the love in unrequited at this stage but hopefully not forever
Journaling
I love summer
Garden looks great
Beach has been fun
Diet good
Weight good
Consistently working out
Looking sharp if I do say so myself
Work going well
Church has been good
Have been socializing more with friends
Much more comfortable doing these things without w
W has been continuing to want to join in the fun
Anniversary and vacation coming up
These are trigger events so a little anxious
After this season in 2016 was b d
After this season in 2017 she ran off with OM2
I can only control me
If it was meant to be it will be it will be
Don't hesitate to reinvent trigger dates like the anniversary and vacation. BD was a big one for me. The next year I went away to a place by the beach all by myself. I had not done anything by myself like that in 14 years! Everytine I drive by that place I have happy memories! And now BD date is co-mingled with that retreat.
There is much good looking at your list. Just because she has no wind in her sails doesn't mean you have to be the same. Live like she's not going to wake up, invest in you and you can't lose long term.
HaWho, very well said. Gordie, you can't stop living your life because your wife is not completely there. Life is precious and you must continue moving forward. Remember, the past is gone, the future is unknown and today is the present, a gift of time....use it wisely for tomorrow, is a new day with new adventures.
HaWho and job thank you for the encouragement
I am a better man but still a work in progress
Example of the week
W was really vexed
She was acting like she was when things were bad
Turning her back to me if we were in the same room
Giving me death stares
Inside I was in a panic and mind racing
Is she filing for d again
Is there om3
And then she finally let me have it
She was really upset about an event with the kids in which she felt unwelcome
I listened
I did not take all the blame
But I could do things differently to make her feel more welcome
And afterwards she was all happy and normal
She gets terribly upset about things
And then holds it in and resentment against me builds
Letting it out after a few days is a big improvement over holding it in forever
So some advice
W has developed new interests
That are very different from my own
I am fine with that
Issue is she wants me to participate
But I really have no interest
Do I continue to politely decline
Or join in to show I support her new interests
So some advice
W has developed new interests
That are very different from my own
I am fine with that
Issue is she wants me to participate
But I really have no interest
Do I continue to politely decline
Or join in to show I support her new interests
I used to joke that the three little words that "saved my marriage" were "Have Fun Dear".
For a while my ex did Warrior Dash. It was "her thing" and I wasn't allowed to participate but I did go out of my way to be there for the actual race, cheer, take pictures and congratulate her. I would then leave her to have fun with her friends. She really appreciated that.
I think that for a number of us here that we were / are married to people who are self-centred and rather controlling. So that means that they and their interests are central. If memory serves this describes your wife as well from what you've said in the past.
Personally I believe that a good relationship requires compromise and that sometimes means doing things that you might not be interested in. I spent a lot of time in craft stores and watching her clothes shop. She would occasionally go paddling with me and was patient(ish) with my own clothes shopping / browsing. Reciprocity wasn't much of a thing in my former marriage.
Not sure if that helped or not but if you do push her away, she may well go.
Andrew
Thanks the does help some but let me explain a little more
Part of my question relates to where I am in my situation
I am not yet piecing or am I
Her actions say she is trying on this relationship with Gordie again but is not yet committed to it
I work a lot
I have a lot of kids
I have little free time
W activities take a lot of time
And they do not involve kids
So if I do these activities with her it means I am not doing what I want which is spending time with kids or doing my own activities
If she was all in on rebuilding our m
I would go all in on joining her at least sometimes
But in this current state I have been keeping my distance
Certainly do not want to push her away
Hi Gordie, it’s been awhile and I wanted to stop by. Sorry you had to deal with w acting that way to you. Sometimes w/ex I want to treat her like the kids “use your words” it would solve so much.
About w’s activity, is it something you can do w/her some times and not a huge commitment? So you could compromise and do it sometimes. I wish I had something better to offer.
You sound like you’re doing really well, keep up the good work!!
I am not yet piecing or am I
Her actions say she is trying on this relationship with Gordie again but is not yet committed to it
I think you've got this exactly correct albeit perhaps more optimistic than I am from the outside with my limited knowledge.
Now keep in mind that I'm pretty cynical. To me it would appear that she is expecting you to do all the work in repairing a marriage that she doesn't want to give up because it's comfortable and respectable. Again - without specific knowledge, it does look like you are Plan B that she's currently parked at. If a nice Plan A wandered across her field of vision she may be off with the fairies again.
I haven't read you posting anything about her having regrets or remorse other than when she got a dose of reality when you were one foot out the door. That scared her into thinking that she was stuck with her choices. Choices that would have not been as comfortable as what she wanted.
There's a concept called "branch swinging" where you don't give up what you have until you are certain of a good landing spot. In my case I pushed my now ex off but in such a wimpy way that she may well think that I am still a Plan B but she chose go keep chasing after OM (still hasn't caught him yet). Your W is standing on branch Gordie but still has the rope in her hand to swing off I believe.
Just before she moved out my ex was horrified and outraged when she thought I was giving her an ultimatum him or me. She actually threw her wedding rings at me but then quickly put them on again when I backed down. I would imagine your own W would react similarly if you were to do the same. She still left.
You've got a lot of sunk costs both practically and emotionally and it's tough to throw that away.
In many ways you are doing what is "right". Not because it is effective but because it in sync with your own moral compass. Theoretically you could indeed do this forever. But I personally still do believe that if a high value target comes into sight that she'll be gone again.
I wish I knew what to advise you that would both be helpful and also in tune with your own beliefs. I believe you are getting some IRL help - what do they counsel?
#TeamGordie
A few thoughts, which might lead to conflicting advice. ;-)
If I remember your timeline correctly, your wife made a lot of changes before you had any indication there was trouble in your marriage. The two biggies I remember are that her spiritual beliefs changed and she started a business when before she was a SAHM.
And although you supported the business (at least on some level), I remember you saying that you were not as understanding or respectful of some of her changes in religious belief.
Am I remembering correctly?
If so, I can see your wife trying to figure out if returning to the marriage would mean returning to her old self, or if she can keep any of her new self in a new marriage.
And if so, it might be important for her to share her activities with you.
It sounds like participating some of the time is an option, so you would not need to give up your priorities in general, just choose to make her the priority some of the time.
What would your 180 behavior be?
Studies show that doing new things together lights up the same parts of the brain as new love.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
Rose
Thank you
You remember correctly
My signature is no longer working and not sure how to get it back
So w and I used to share religious beliefs and now we no longer do so
Maybe I should read about mixed religious marriages
She says it is okay if we believe different things
She is usually respectful of my beliefs
But clearly is trying to convert me and the children
It definitely makes things even more complicated
Gordie,
What signature are you referring to? The one at the bottom of your posting? Because if you are, I'm seeing it in your last posting. If that is not the one you are referring to, then try clicking on your name to see if the profile will as a drop down choice and if that doesn't work, go to the top right hand side and see if you have your user name displayed there and there will be a tiny drop down arrow there. Click on that and then look around for the profile choice. You can then decide whether to keep your signature as is or change it, but I would advise that you save your info again. Just to be on the safe side.
Hey Gordie! I logged in today specifically to catch up on your situation. Glad I did because between what you have been posting and the advice you've been given I found quite a bit of good stuff that's helped me a lot. You guys are amazing!
I wanted to give my 2 cents on the situation with joining W with her interests vs enjoying your own time with and without the kids. I think that the solution to that has a lot to do with your personal dynamic with W. I think that you are right about leveraging that with her desire to work on the marriage and trying not to push her away.
My Ws reason for wanting to split was due to us growing apart and not doing stuff together (well, the reason she gave, although obviously if that were really it, my desire to work with her to make things better would have gone over better). While she is right that over the years we became more kid focused and not as focused on us, we did still do things together. Having said that, I don't want to discount her feelings on the situation because I would have liked us to be closer too. We were just of different mindsets about it. I felt like as much as I would like for her and I to go out all the time, we were very busy and our time with the kids is limited. They will grow up and go out on their own soon. I wasn't trying to sacrifice our relationship to be with the kids, but I felt like we needed do our best for the kids for now and enjoy family time and that soon it would be just her and I again to go back out and concur the world together. I now feel like I should have balanced that better...even if it wouldn't have actually prevented the situation we are in now (I firmly believe she was going to go through MLC regardless).
So your dilemma about how to handle joining your Ws interest resonates a bit with me. On one hand I value my time with the kids and don't want to miss out on any opportunities to add depth and value to both our relationships and their lives, as well as enjoy just being with them. I also don't want to rearrange my life just because she has decided that she might want me to do something with her (speaking hypothetically, I'm not there yet (if ever)). On the other hand, I also want her to feel that I am interested in her interests. Not that I share the interests, but that I am interested in her and appreciate that she HAS interests and am willing to support her in them.
The best I can say in that situation, is to seek balance. Do enough to show your interest in her stuff without sacrificing your own needs. If that doesn't work you can always pull back. Good luck my friend!
If she was all in on rebuilding our m
I would go all in on joining her at least sometimes
But in this current state I have been keeping my distance
Certainly do not want to push her away
Why don't you just ask her ??
Hey W, I was wondering if this is working for you ?
Because I was thinking that I am not sure about how it is all working for me ?
Mach
Would that not be initiating a R talk?
Putting pressure on her?
Is it safe to do that now?
Rose and Sjohn6
Thanks for the encouragement
Seems like maybe take a chance and see how it goes
How it feels for me and her
Hello Gordie. I go away for two weeks and there is so much to catch up on - work, family, and here. I read your post two days ago but have been so busy I haven’t been able to respond.
As to your W wanting you to participate in her activity. That’s awesome!
What I would give to have my W dump OM, stop ideas of D, and want to include me in an activity she enjoys.
That is a big step up from W being angry at you and not wanting you around.
My advice.
Short version - Go! Spend time with her.
Longer version:
Your W has made an effort to ask you to be part of an activity she enjoys. I understand you are not thrilled with this activity, but that is beside the point, you should go and spend time with her. Hopefully, the following ideas can make it more palatable to attend even if it is something you really detest. So go, make good and fun memories together. Maybe respond something like:
W, I love spending time with you. Thank you for asking me to join you at yyy.
I think a big thing here is no pressure. You are just responding to her offer.
Things are going in a good positive direction, but to be clear I do not think you are piecing, not yet. This is more like those first dates from so many years ago. You had to do some things you probably were not thrilled with, but may not even had realized it. I mean if you had said on date 3 or 4, I really don’t like this, there may not have been dates 5, 6, or 7.
Remember those times? Man she is a hot girl. I really want to spend time with her.
You were just happy to get to hold hands and kiss her good night. Well she is still hot and you still want to spend time with her (from what you have previously said). So spend time with her. Btw don’t think of this as a date.
Eventually, after a few of these events, and if she seems reasonable you could ask something like:
W, I really love spending time with you. I’ve had a lot of fun at yyy. How about next Saturday we go to xxx?
I would not expect a favourable response, in fact I would ensure to keep expectations at zero - but I would hope for positive response.
A while back I said how I see expectations as hope with a timeline. For all of this interaction with W - hope for positive outcomes, good times, and so on. But do not expect it. If you were to ask her to go to the monster truck race and she says no, you won’t get disappointed if you only hoped for it and not expected it.
I have been thinking of how you had seen hope as a four letter word and found it soul crushing. I find it is disappointment that crushes one’s soul. Hope lifts up. Hope renews. Drop expectations. Keep hope.
Now, why go to something you do not have much interest in. The main reason is to be part of your W’s life again, create good memories, and start breaking down those protective walls that get built up over the years of detachment and letting go. Also W’s feelings and thoughts have changed and she even has new beliefs. She has new activities to go with her new personality. Her feeling and beliefs could change again, in fact as she becomes whole and healed I would expect that to happen. So her new favourite activity may not even exist in the future.
You, I, all of us LBS have also altered our feelings, thoughts, and beliefs. For the last years you (all of us) have been detaching, letting go, limiting contact, and such to survive, heal, and keep love and hope alive as best you can. It has become a habit to limit interacting with her. It is these very habits that are having you question if you should participate in her activity. I think when you get to this next stage those habits are now in the way and will need to be broken. You obviously have a strong belief in M and W and R. You have stood for a long time and that takes more than some fleeting feelings, it takes a strong belief.
- - -
As you can probably tell I have given some thought to the actions and problems I see upcoming if, and hopefully when, I was to face my W starting to return. The following is how I see it, a plan before the storm. Maybe it applies a bit to you.
Just like I said about detachment I think reattachment requires an accurate look at the situation. I have been hurt deeply and would not be very open to being hurt again. But I would have to risk it. I have been ignoring her antics and actions for so long it would be hard to change gears. But there is no chance at reconciliation if I do not reach out. However, the biggest thing is that my own feelings, thoughts, and some beliefs would betray me. The very things that have helped me get to this moment would become a detriment. So - Fake it till you make it.
I have allocated a year, a full 12 months, to not act on my feelings and thoughts, to give them time to settle and balance. For months after BD I felt I would never get over some things, I can see that could happen again when interacting with W and all the feelings it would stir up. I would need to consciously not react to problems. In a year from now things that are currently bothersome will not even matter. I have already seen that things from BD are barely on the radar anymore. The current problems and incompatibilities will not exist in time. I have worked so hard and survived so much, this is not the time to lose control and blow it.
Things will get a lot more difficult. I know the MLCer’s feelings are mixed up - they are going to be mixed up for quite a while yet. Be prepared to interact, and process your own crazy and mixed feelings too - just remember they are feelings and they change. Give it time to change your beliefs. It will happen just keep going. Remember when you would have given anything to be here. Well you are here. Stay calm and keep going forward.
This is your roadmap DnJ. Things are going to get weird and very trying. Refer to this. Remember you made this when you were in a much better and sane place. Get through this and you will be again. Hopefully with a M, R, and loving W.
- - - -
Ok. I wrote a bit more than I intended.
You are right if she was all in to rebuilding the M, much easier.
I think you are just going to have to give it a try. Then follow some very good advice from a pretty smart guy I have followed for some time. His name is Gordie.
Do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.
^^YES^^
I second that quote from a smart man. Do more of what works and less of what doesn't!
Obviously DNJ said a LOT of good stuff in there, but I loved the way he closed it out
Gordie, lately I have this feeling that much of your peace and the confident way you looked out on the world is just a little bit shaky. There is some sadness in your posts that I didn't see before -- it's as if in her returning a tiny bit, you have lost hope.
I totally understand this as the exact same thing happened to me during the times my H seemed to return a little. I know just the weariness you are feeing and I send you a big ((((((Gordie)))))))).
DnJ is right that those of us with MIA spouses would be so happy if our spouses asked us to do anything with them. But on the other hand, it is pretty obvious that she is still cycling so she is still not the W you knew, she is still an MLCer even if friendlier. She is still baking. As a mom I can assure you that I love time to myself and long for someone to watch my kids so I can do stuff, but I do not consider that my primary focus and I would not do lots of things without them. So her desire to do that is part of the blindness, and I just don't see the point of taking it so seriously -- by that I mean, by believing it's the new her and will last forever.
If you trust God, you can be sure that if she truly returns, it will be your W, or a better version of her, not this limbo version. If you trust God, a return to the faith is going to be part of that, but it will not be on your timing or follow any script you expect.
My H spouts philosophy and theology to suit whatever his confusion can fit, he rationalized sin to sin back to God to sin to Buddha and now to some kind of yoga chanting God-as-vibration stuff. It's all part of the cycling. When I catch myself worrying about it, I remind myself that he's still baking in one hot oven.
You are the master of listening without judgment when the MLCer spews craziness, why can't you see her desire to do those separate activities as part of that and employ the same methods, but "actively listen" by attending once a week or every other week and not take it as a symbol of anything? Explain to your kids that you need to spend some time with Mom now to help her get comfortable in her own skin, and that you are so grateful to them for allowing you the time away when you would prefer in many ways to do something all together or to spend your limited time away from work with them, and that you can't wait to do X favorite activity with them the next day.
Mach
Would that not be initiating a R talk?
Putting pressure on her?
Is it safe to do that now?
What is she gonna do, threaten you with Divorce ??
Ignore you for months ??
Totally block you out of her life for months ???
Get another boyfriend ???
Oh snap, that kinda already happened didn't it....
You're still harboring that fear Gordie....
You are still afraid that you are going to be divorced from her..
Mach, you are right that we don't want to make choices based on fear, but neither do we want to make them based on bitterness or some sense of revenge -- e.g., you think just because you came home I am gonna share your interests? this also runs the risk of becoming an attempt to influence her -- e.g., I will give her a taste of how that feels and then she'll realize what she did to me and repent of it.
I think Gordie's M is a slightly different place now than earlier in the MLC and I totally understand why he wants to make his W feel safe and welcomed and to know that he is standing for the M. I think that's wonderful that he is able to work on his husbanding skills even when he get none of the love back from his W, that's some godly stuff there and will lead to the most peace when coupled with continued detachment, no matter what the W does.
But I do think Mach is right that we have to be very careful about not being guided by fear, ever, but only what will help us heal, make us whole, no matter what our spouses do. Lately I have felt that you, Gordie, seem a little more wounded. I think that's natural and normal and I hope you will be able to see that when it comes, lay it at God's feet, and lean harder on God to give you full courage, strength, peace.
Mach, you are right that we don't want to make choices based on fear, but neither do we want to make them based on bitterness or some sense of revenge -- e.g., you think just because you came home I am gonna share your interests? this also runs the risk of becoming an attempt to influence her -- e.g., I will give her a taste of how that feels and then she'll realize what she did to me and repent of it.
I think Gordie's M is a slightly different place now than earlier in the MLC and I totally understand why he wants to make his W feel safe and welcomed and to know that he is standing for the M. I think that's wonderful that he is able to work on his husbanding skills even when he get none of the love back from his W, that's some godly stuff there and will lead to the most peace when coupled with continued detachment, no matter what the W does.
But I do think Mach is right that we have to be very careful about not being guided by fear, ever, but only what will help us heal, make us whole, no matter what our spouses do. Lately I have felt that you, Gordie, seem a little more wounded. I think that's natural and normal and I hope you will be able to see that when it comes, lay it at God's feet, and lean harder on God to give you full courage, strength, peace.
My concern is Gordies emotional welfare...
None of this, except the parts where he is living HIS life on his own terms (as of late), are giving him the emotional well being, or peace, that he has worked hard for...
So is it worth it, to sell himself for the sake of the defunct marriage ???
Anything for the future would have to begin anew...
I don't know that answer to that, only Gordie does.
But looking at both sides allows him to make an accurate decision about his future...
Wow guys thank you for the thoughtful comments
Really feel like you guys care which means a lot
And the fact that you have different perspectives is awesome
But want to particularly respond to DNJ and Mach1
DNJ great reminder of where I am now vs where I was
It has been a long two years
And yes a big change from w wanting me out of her life
And the depths of my own personal hell
Are we building something new or not
Only time will tell
So better to enjoy the moment
And doing things with her I have no interest in just to be with her is the right attitude
I had not thought of the LBS process of doing all these things to protect and heal self
That at some point you have to unwind if you can ever get to reconciliation
But how you do that with hope and no expectation or timelines
Yes I used to do things I did not like to be with her
And she did the same for me
And when rewriting history she always did what I wanted and I never did what she wanted
But I know that is not true
So I am going to do one of her activities with her this weekend
I can only control me and I choose to do this
I cannot control her and how this will affect her positively or negatively
And Mach1 damn right I still have fear
Fear of doing the wrong thing
Scaring the squirrel away
Fear of opening my heart and getting hurt all over again if she runs away again
Just like Cali experienced
But you are right that she already did the worst she can do
So why do I still have fear
Because I still love her and and want this to work out
For love to be mutual again
For the family to stay together
And yes I am afraid it may not
You are my favorite provocateur
Because I know you care
We will meet in person one day
And I promise I am not the 98 pound emotional weakling you think I am
And I promise I am not the 98 pound emotional weakling you think I am
You back up to 105 ???
Look buddy...
What I want for you...
I want you to live your life on your terms, facing your fears and having them work in your favor, rather than against you...
I want you to be able to MAKE choices, not forced to live within the parameters of other people's choices....
I don't think that you are weak...
I don't think that you have zero conviction...
I do not doubt that you love her....
I do, however, smell the fear from where I sit now....
And I want you to see both sides, before you choose...
Fair enough ???
Stop kicking sand in my face or I will tell on you
More than fair
I love when you smell the fear
I am blind to it
Like a certain emperor with no clothes
Gordie, you're in great hands. There's nothing really to add except two things.
First, I started setting intentions at New Year's rather than making resolutions. Did that for the first time in 2015. It was unreal in that every single intention came into being before the end of the year, and not in any way I would have predicted (ex. one of them was to support my husband in whatever ways he needed me to --- BD happened 4/6, I didn't contest, fight or anything like that, just responded with as much loving kindness and compassion as I could muster). So, this year there was only one intention: that on 12/31/18 I look back and see that the bulk of my decisions for 2018 were made coming from a place of love, not fear.
I wish that for you also - that your decisions be made out of a place of love rather than a place of fear.
Secondly, I think all LBS are suffering from a certain measure of PTSD, particularly strong for those still living with the MLCr. Let's face it, the MLCr usually puts their family through the wringer before they BD. If they stick around post BD, it's just more of the roller coaster that mirrors their inner turmoil. Hard not to be affected. Hard to keep reminding yourself that you will be okay no matter what. You will, you know - be ok, no matter how this turns out. Just wanted to remind you of that.
My Reiki teacher sent me something that has really helped me lately. The Reiki precepts talk about keeping things in the day and not being angry because usually when we are angry it is about something that happened in the past. We cannot change the past. Continuing to be angry robs us of our present. The precepts also talk about not being worried, because when we worry we are in fear of the future. Again, we are robbing ourselves of the present. By being grateful, we remain in the present and can open ourselves to being compassionate towards ourselves and others.
I hope this helps, although I think you're doing better than you think you are xoxoxo
Butterfly
You always help
How to act now in love not fear
Fear not
Love is patient and kind and does not envy and is not proud and does not boast
It does not dishonor others is not self seeking is not easily angered and keeps no record of wrongs
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth
It always protects always trusts always hopes always perseveres
Love never fails
Yes we read that at our wedding
So w initiated a R discussion for the first time since January
1 she no longer feels trapped and feels like she can be who she wants to be and likes how I have changed in this regard and I should have always been like this
2 she now enjoys the time she spends with me not too much and not too little maybe she wants more but does not want to commit to that
3 she feel like I still love the kids more than her and supports them and their interests in a sacrificial way that I have never doene for her
4 she feels like I will never love her the way she wants to be loved and that she should just accept that I have always de prioritized her and I always will and she should just accept that as her reality
I tried really hard to just listen and validate and not defend or counter attack
And then she gave me a hug and said goodnight
HI Gordie:
Well it definitely sounds like movement in the right direction, but I am sure as you already know this is all again about her, and how "you" won't be good enough. I have heard a lot of the same from my wife since BD, I know you are much further down the path. But she is nowhere near baked yet.
But positive still and many kudos for your ability to listen, say nothing, and not just SCREAM!
Gordie,
Continue as you have been. She is at least recognizing the changes that you have made (I hope that those changes were for you and you are happy w/them and not just changes to make her change her mind). The changes will now need to be permanent fixtures in your life.
Your w is still looking for someone to fall over, kiss her feet and make her number one and yes, put her up on a pedestal. Listen, no matter how hard you try, she is going to continue to find fault in one area or another. That's why it's important to continue as you have been and not jump through hoops playing the "pick me dance/I can change and make you happy, just tell me what to do dance".
When she talks, continue to listen and validate her. If she says something that you know isn't quite right, just say "w, I'm sorry you feel that way" and leave it. She's still not figured out that happiness comes from within and not from external sources. It's not your job to make her happy and to love herself...she has to do that.
Keep the focus on you and your children. She's still a work in progress.
^^^ What job said - #TeamGordie
Love is patient and kind and does not envy and is not proud and does not boast
It does not dishonor others is not self seeking is not easily angered and keeps no record of wrongs
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth
It always protects always trusts always hopes always perseveres
Love never fails
Yes we read that at our wedding
Thanks Gordie. We read that at our wedding also. And I cannot tell you how many times I repeated it in during my marriage, most especially in the years leading up to BD as well as the 20 months between BD and finalizing our divorce. It didn't save my marriage but it certainly helped me get through very difficult times.
1 she no longer feels trapped and feels like she can be who she wants to be and likes how I have changed in this regard and I should have always been like this
RED FLAG #1
3 she feel like I still love the kids more than her and supports them and their interests in a sacrificial way that I have never doene for her
RED FLAG #2
[quote=Gordie]
4
she feels like I will never love her the way she wants to be loved and that she should just accept that I have always de prioritized her and I always will and she should just accept that as her reality[/Gordie]
RED FLAG #3
---
That being said - my belief is that a great number of MLCrs are broken because they did not get the kind of love and support they needed as children. They then look towards the spouse to provide them with the kind of unconditional love only a parent can provide. In the absence of a parent providing that love, the individual must do the hard work to heal and provide that love to his/herself. This isn't your job, Gordie. This is absolutely the work she needs to do. And yes, they then get resentful because the spouse might be exactly the kind of parent they always wanted but didn't get.
(can you tell I've heard a similar speech)
Google "Will Smith Happiness"
Watch that video.
Watch it a few times.
All that being said, take the conversation with a grain of salt, keep your expectations at zero and do what makes YOU happy, trusting that you'll be taken care of in the way you're meant to be.
#TeamGordie
xoxoxoxo
Gerda is flummoxed. Team Gordie seems to be attempting some tough love strategies on Gordie but he is tougher than almost any of us here. Gordie IS DAILY AND NIGHTLY LIVING WITH THE WOMAN WHO BROKE HIS HEART AND MIND AND FAMILY and is standing tall even as she continues to push and pull, to reject him and insult him. He could be broken, he could be getting wasted nightly, he could be sending his kids to live with gramma for a while so he can run away from it all. Instead he is daily strapping on his boots to wade back through the the mire with a smile on his face. A little fear as he gazes into the dark mouth of the tunnel? Um, yeah. H$lls yeah.
Gordie's very expression of fear is in fact only based on his massive strength in being willing to keep his heart open when it would make things so much easier to clang it shut and lock it tight.
Gordie, your love for your W when she doesn't remotely deserve it and when she is still the sun of her own solar system, when she is actually jealous of her own children, that love is beautiful and is the meaning of love. Gordie, you are stronger than strong, you are one of my heroes here and in IRL, you give me hope in the world and the future. If you weren't afraid, you'd be asleep in the biblical sense, e.g., dead in the spiritual sense.
You are not asleep. It hurts to stay awake and have to keep watching. And we are specifically told to STAY AWAKE. And speaking of that, you forgot the end of the passage from Corinthians, what that talk of love was leading to. So I will paste it below for your convenience and to remind you that you are a rock star, that now you may feel you are seeing dimly, but it takes a lot of guts to walk through the darkness when you can't see anything the lies ahead.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.
As for prophecies (even by friends on this board), they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Not tough love Gerda.
Encouragement to keep going, hopefully, and to not buy the kool-aid his wife is selling.. Sharing my experience is all I have to give. Yes she is jealous of her own children. Why is that? I don't know, but I'd guess it's because she didn't have that unconditional love as a child. She felt short-changed and maybe thought, "oh, marriage and my own family will fix me"
No. That doesn't work. If a child doesn't get their needs met by their parents, they grow up with a hole inside that can only be filled by themselves doing the hard work. Their kids can't fill it. Their spouses sure can't fill it, even though the MLCr expects them too and is furious at the spouse for "falling short and not meeting their needs" - unreasonable, impossible needs. That video explains it brilliantly and might be something that gives Gordie hope if he gets down.
My post to Gordie was hopefully to elucidate my feelings about this topic in a way that encourages him to keep going, as he's facing what I believe is the worst of the worst: having to live with the MLCr while they make up their mind about whether to stay or go. Make no mistake, she's still making up her mind about that.
Maybe he should have been a certain way all along. Only Gordie and his wife know that for sure. (Red Flag #1) but the other two statements - straight from the MLC handbook these folks get at whatever secret meeting they all go to when they join Club MLC. She still has a ways to go.
Hang in the Gordie. Continue to be the amazing man you are who only a fool would leave. Continue your GAL. Continue to encourage your wife in whatever ways make sense. Don't drink the kool-aid, no matter how it's packaged.
#TeamGordie#1
Gordie - did she ask how you were doing with things? If not, that to me, is the biggest problem and would be a giant red flag. And if she did ask, would you feel safe telling her the truth or would you be afraid of the fallout?
It's good she feels safe initiating a conversation. But at some point she needs to turn that finger back at herself. We all do in order to grow.
I know what your life is like. Lots of eggshells with the live-in. Practice lots of self care.
Dang it lost a really long reply to the team
Second try
Marvin agree I see some progress here but yes still baking very very slowly DNJ s grass grows much faster and man o man there were moments I absolutely wanted to scream but just kept sipping that s t f u smoothie from cafe Cali
Job yes will keep steady and doing what I am doing and improving me for me I am a much better listener and less critical and less judgmental and I can see my abs again ha ha ha but sadly yes she still wants to be swept off her feet and has a twenty year record of wrongs that prove that I am not the fantasy man and that still hurts less than it used to but feeling like I never live up to this always moving target is exhausting
Andrew thank you
Butterfly thank you for your red flags think it is easier for others to see them so for red flag 1 there is some validity there partly due to me being a less supportive H than I should have been all along but partly on her and living up to what her father wanted and projecting that on to me I never asked her to give up career to be a sahm but she clearly still blames that and other life choices on me
Red flags 2 and 3 I find more confusing and troubling and it never dawned on me that she is somehow jealous of her own children and she recently said she did not know why I am supportive of my daughter in her professional ambition in a way that I am not to her and did not know what to say to that so said nothing and yes she had issues in her childhood that are all wrapped up in this and are still wreaking havoc on her psyche and I cannot fix this in her
I was not aware that you heard a similar speech was that before at or after b d
Gordie - did she ask how you were doing with things? If not, that to me, is the biggest problem and would be a giant red flag. And if she did ask, would you feel safe telling her the truth or would you be afraid of the fallout?
It's good she feels safe initiating a conversation. But at some point she needs to turn that finger back at herself. We all do in order to grow.
I know what your life is like. Lots of eggshells with the live-in. Practice lots of self care.
This is a really important question. Is she considering your feelings, how you are feeling in the M and if YOUR needs are getting met? Does she ever discuss this with you?
Or is it all still about her?
Gerda thank you for you kind words and yes telling it as you see it and the pushing and pulling and I hate to admit insults usually said with a smile but are insults nonetheless and yes it is tough to keep walking when I see only dimly but one day we will see clearly and yes the fear is real and yes believe that some days I am strong and other days not so much and some days am full of faith and hope and other days struggle to keep it together but the good days are better than ever and the bad days fewer and farther between
Yes I have experienced despair and never really understood suicidal tendencies previously but realized that would solve nothing and would only make life worse for my children so when I could not keep my chin up for myself I kept my chin up for them I. like a drink but never more than a couple as I have witnessed firsthand alcohol and drug addiction so never wanted to go there and I write this for other LBS so that they know these are all common temptation
So thank you for your kind words I have never read or heard that phrase that it hurts to stay awake instead of running away in one way or the other another way to think about it is that the LBS is also in crisis and if we stand we are asked to choose neither fight nor flight which really is contrary to our primal desires
Hawho and Ginger
This conversation was 90 percent about her
She is still in the very selfish mode and she's still got a while to bake in that oven.
Gordie, continue as you have been, i.e., keep the focus on you and your children and leave her in the oven to bake.
Butterfly thank you for your red flags think it is easier for others to see them so for red flag 1 there is some validity there partly due to me being a less supportive H than I should have been all along but partly on her and living up to what her father wanted and projecting that on to me I never asked her to give up career to be a sahm but she clearly still blames that and other life choices on me
BINGO Gordie - read what you just wrote again please: her father was NOT supportive of her; you are supportive of your daughter ... She wanted/wants her dad to be the kind of dad you are to your kids. She didn't get that and she's p@ssed. The child of the same gender is the mirror and the one we will have the most trouble with if there are unresolved issues. This is textbook.
Red flags 2 and 3 I find more confusing and troubling and it never dawned on me that she is somehow jealous of her own children and she recently said she did not know why I am supportive of my daughter in her professional ambition in a way that I am not to her and did not know what to say to that so said nothing and yes she had issues in her childhood that are all wrapped up in this and are still wreaking havoc on her psyche and I cannot fix this in her
Gordie I'm sure she's not even aware that she's jealous of her own children. I'd bet she has a tougher time with the girls than the boys.
No, you absolutely cannot fix this in her. This is hers to fix, and hers alone.
I was not aware that you heard a similar speech was that before at or after b d
The day of BD it was a lot of talk specifically targeted to cause as much psychic pain as possible.
in the days and weeks post BD there were many awful, horrible conversations again designed to cause as much emotional damage as possible. A lot of comments of how in essence I put son ahead of exh, and son didn't need me to do the things that normal parents do - but exh doesn't know that is what a normal parent would do because his parents were anything but normal. There have been many many instances of exh saying things that are so obviously based in jealousy. In fact, exh pushed me so far one day in mediation and was so nasty that I turned to him in shock and said, "My God, you're angry because I became Son's mother and stopped being yours!" - it is such a true statement on so many levels and was patently obvious by the way he reacted when I said it and what he complained most about.
Exh's ongoing song was, "No one ever did that for me, so why should I do it for son? I turned out just fine." (Yeah, obviously; nothing wrong with him that divorcing me couldn't fix, right?)
This permeated the entire mediation then divorce and now post-divorce process. Yet, when our mediation was all over, exh turned to me and said, "You never asked for anything for yourself. It was always for Son and what to do to protect him or provide for him." This was said in a puzzled and shocked tone.
I said, "Yes, that's what a mother is supposed to do, isn't it?" I know that bothered him greatly ... That entire mediation process was him comparing his childhood experience of divorcing parents with our son's and being completely jealous of the fact that son had a mother who would protect him at all costs, which exh's mother did NOT do, and that I wouldn't ever use son as a weapon, which is all my ex-inlaws did with exh and ex-bil.
I know- it's bizarre. But this is in essence the root of the damage for most of these MLCrs, as far as I can tell. When I think about it in this way, I'm able to let go of the hurt, anger, bitterness and resentment and feel compassion for the hurt child who is striking out because they don't know what else to do. Doesn't make it acceptable or ok on any level, but does make it somewhat understandable, and allows fierce compassion to come in which gives me relief.
Hope this helps? xoxoxo
Butterfly
You have literally blown my mind
Yes she has a more troubled relationship with the girls
In the Women in MLC book it talks about for some women seeing their daughter’s transition from girls to women is a trigger because they compare the daughters young bodies to their own and the unlimited potential of their youth to their own lives that are filled with disappointment and resentment and lacking in opportunity
And yes I have heard the no one did that for me speech how did you know about that speech and the psychic and emotional damage
The truth is my parents were not that supportive of me so part of my desire as a father is to do that for my kids I have never said what you said but have thought it is that not what a parent is supposed to do
There was of course total attention on her before there were kids And then babies came and I felt her total attention was on them and I was okay with that because I thought that was the way it was supposed to be
Yes I felt I was de prioritized and in hindsight shifted my attention to my career and the children which I feel was my biggest contribution to the breakdown of the M where she eventually felt I paid no attention to her and no longer valued and cherished her
There was no outright hostility on either of our parts and mistakenly I thought this was just a natural evolution and did not expect or work for anything more as we were the so called happy and social couple with happy children and lots of friends and the center of our social circle and so of course was just another blindsided LBS at BD
Thank you butterfly for giving me a lot to think about
This all kind of hit me like a bolt too. My H has totally abandoned our S13, way more than with D9, and I was always thinking it was because D9 was somehow less threatening. I also always remembered that when D9 was a baby, and just the sweetest light, H always said, "She's going to save us all."
But this makes so much more sense -- my H was decimated by his parents, and his mom didn't protect him from the intense abuse of his father -- e.g., when he locked him in the basement at age 6 for having a friend over after school (he was a latchkey kid and was not supposed to have anyone there), his mom allowed it. When his father beat him, his mom allowed it. When his father said he was "rotten to the core," half of her believed it, and even told me that after BD to explain his behavior.
So it makes so much sense that he can't bear to be around my son for the most part, and often expresses his jealousy. I am the mom H wanted! But he hates me for it! I even remember once saying during an argument that I would not let him treat S the way his father treated him, that even if his mom allowed that, I never would. He was SO ENRAGED, moreso than the usual MLC rage. It all makes sense now.
We live in a small apartment but I made a small bedroom for my son the last few years using this small open area that my H used briefly as an office but then did not use for two years or more. My H was so angry that my son got that space, it was so weird as he wanted it left empty just in case he ever wanted to use it but didn't want his S, who was entering his teens, to have his own little room (or for the two kids of different genders to not share a room anymore) -- and believe me, we are talking about a tiny space for my S's room. And this year when I turned the curtain into a wall so that S could have more privacy, it caused a HUGE fight and my H punished me for months with his coldness and refusal to help me even just with some screws or wood cuts that I couldn't do. The whole house is still upside down from it.
And, as you know already from my thread, I am sure, my H is always trying to get me to sell our house so he can live on "his half" and also constantly demands money that he says is his right since I keep him from what is his. But recently he said something about how I was holding on to the house for the kids and not even letting him have any of it -- he said it in this really whining way, like a child who wanted to cry. Keep in mind, he lives here and has not given me a penny towards household expenses or child support or food or anything since before BD, so obviously he is not seeing this as a responsible adult would. But it really struck me at the time how strange it was and how childish even his tone of voice was.
H's weird jealous perspective makes so much more sense with bttrfly's interpretation and Gordie's confirmation!
Wow! Gordie, Once again I came to show support and ended up gaining insight and support from your thread instead.
I also have a W that didn't get proper attention and affection growing up. And what you describe as your marital progression, Gordie, sounds very similar to my own.
"There was of course total attention on her before there were kids And then babies came and I felt her total attention was on them and I was okay with that because I thought that was the way it was supposed to be
Yes I felt I was deprioritized and in hindsight shifted my attention to my career and the children which I feel was my biggest contribution to the breakdown of the M where she eventually felt I paid no attention to her and no longer valued and cherished her"
I know I didn't quote you the right way, but so much this ^^.
That plays perfectly in line with the only complaint my W has given since BD, that we grew apart over time as we focused on the kids. There was not enough focus on us as a couple. I've had a hard time understanding how THAT could be the deal-breaker. I know that it happened, but to me that is something that we could have easily fixed just by spending some more time together...because hey, its something that we both want and we love each other. To view it as more of possible jealousy due to me being more of the kind of parent that she would have wanted, and the fact that my focus was on her before the kids but shifted after...all makes more sense. That and I felt like you Gordie, that her focus was all on the kids. I didn't like it but understood it, but it also caused me to pull back and focus on me and the kids more.
Thank you Gordie for paving the way for my understanding. I'm following in your wake and snatching up all the insight being provided to you. You have my support, just wish I had advice to go along with it. Instead I offer humble gratitude.
#goteamgordie
And yes I have heard the no one did that for me speech how did you know about that speech and the psychic and emotional damage
I know about it because I've heard it, repeatedly. and the psychic and emotional damage ... I lived with his for 26 years ... I'm also dealing with the psychic and emotional damage inflicted intentionally by a vindictive, angry, broken man-child.
There was of course total attention on her before there were kids And then babies came and I felt her total attention was on them and I was okay with that because I thought that was the way it was supposed to be
Yes I felt I was de prioritized and in hindsight shifted my attention to my career and the children which I feel was my biggest contribution to the breakdown of the M where she eventually felt I paid no attention to her and no longer valued and cherished her
Well, I treated my exh like a rock star, then we had our son. We both put him ahead of each other. It hurt me at times, but I also thought that was the natural progression. For regular people, that IS a natural progression - by regular people I mean people who are mature - who have the ability to see that everything is fluid - at some point the kids grow up, leave home and then it's the couple again.
Thank you butterfly for giving me a lot to think about
You're welcome. I hope it helps you breathe easier.
Ah dear Gordie. I'm still lying low and can't post about my situation but I follow you guys every day. I'm guessing that the big scary stuff is winding down and now you are able to pop your head out a bit and check out this new landscape in which you find yourself. In most instances I find going with my gut takes me to good places and making decisions out of fear takes me to bad ones. What feels good today, may not tomorrow. Keep the expectations to a minimum and play it by ear.
OwnIt,
Go out there and change your member name and begin again...just don't drop too many hints about your situation. TMI tends to give people away around here...keep your posts to generic stuff for a while.
Gordie,
I could say so much to you. Your situation and comments trigger many responses in me.unfortunately I do not have the time to write much.
Recently many people are pointing out that your W isn't fully in your M. Until she is, there can be no certainty about her future intentions or actions. She cannot be counted on, hence the no expectations guideline.
I know many including myself warned what limbo could occur if you backed off your moving out plans. I am sorry that that is the case. However only you can know if that was the best move. It might still be but it has lifted s certain discomfort from your W's viewpoint and that comfort could really slow down the process.
But you have daily opportunities to plant seeds and reconnect. That is an advantage over many here. But as Cadet would point out you cannot connect with someone that doesn't want to. So don't chase that. Use opportunities as they arise but don't dwell on making it happen.
Lastly I will say that the M you have at the moment isn't a fulfilling situation for either of ye. If a day comes that you decide that you no longer want to live that way, you can decide not to. That doesn't necessarily mean stopping standing.
You have a lot of good supporters on team gordie. I am glad for you. Listen to them and take away what is right for you. No one else has to walk in your shoes. But I would urge you to embrace life even fuller.
My twopence worth on your recent question is that I would have done something small and simple for the birthday on the lines of as if she was a good friend and I would have let slide the anniversary.
An.important ingredient of a healthy M are shared interests and doing stuff together. Remember that but don't bend over backwards to do what she wants unless it suits you too.
Best wishes mate