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#18: still not divorced Patience - 3 minths since dropping the divorce complaint and getting hit by 2x4s to keep my expectations low, I am learning more about parience than I ever wished. This continues to be a process and timeline not of my choosing. And no, there was bo Hollywood reconciliation. Instead, it has been a very slow de escalation. Walls are there on both sides but i feel them coming down slowly, o so slowly.
Trust - this is not ao much about trust between w and me, this is more avout my trust in God. Faith that His ways are above my ways. Trust that miracles are possible. Trust that this is worth it. Trust that this is the right thing to do. The whole letting go and letting God thing. Not losing faith. Clinging to the mustard seed.
hello my friend, i've missed reading your updates! so glad you're posts are getting through.
I hear you, completely. I had a situation I turned over about 5-6 weeks ago, and I know that I'm being led in a completely weird direction - weird as in, not any way I personally would have thought to go with it, but that is what's happening, and I'm learning that it's ok to just go with the flow and let it happen. I pray the same for you !!! xoxoxoxo
Hope - so I think in the dark days of OM2, my hope died. It was then when i was pushing for the D and wanted to get the heck away from w. You guys kept telling me to let go but i...couldnt. It was when hope died thst i finally, against my will, let go...not to sce the M but...as you wise souls said, to save myself. So then, she turned away from D. I have learned the hard way that turning away from D is not the same as turning towards me or M. Time will tell, but i have felt hope again in my heart. So where am I now? I am trying to get out of PTSD and surviving to a better place where i am living life again. I know mach1 and sonmany others have been telling me this for a while...but i am a slow learner.
Thank you all for sticking with me.
No idea why my posts are working today.
Safari was bot working. I am posting from Chrome.
glad to have you back Gord...hope you are having a great week.
GORDIE!!!!!!
It' s good to have you back..
You were missed.
I was anxious to read your update.
Your story is, in some ways, parallel to mine. There is a difference between "not wanting a divorce" and "working on a marriage."
Actions over words. Stay strong!
Coaching session notes
I am doing great
Keep doing what i am doing
Take care of kids
Be more open with older kids about what is going on
W is still in crisis
You cannot save her
She has to explore every path
Let her keep initiating with you
Stop doing the things a h does for a w
She does not act like a w now
Stop bending over backwards for her
She must treat you with respect
Do not protect her ftom her consequences
Be patient
This will take longer than you think
Expectations hurt you
Be compassionate
Saw a friend who divorced his mlc w five years ago
Married 15 years with three kids snd joint custody
She lost weight and put on the happy face for all
He got remarried and built a new life
XW just tried to kill herself
He now has full custody of kids
Sad sad sad
So eldest in college is coming home soon
She is super judgmental of W and is angry
W really seems clueless about why which I find baffling
I have avoided intervening which has been easy because she is away
W has made clumsy attempts to call and text her to no avail
I know they will both try to drag me into it when she gets home
Any advice
I found these:
Coaching session notes:
I am doing great
Keep doing what i am doing
Take care of kids
Be more open with older kids about what is going on
W is still in crisis
* You cannot save her
She has to explore every path
Let her keep initiating with you
* Stop doing the things a h does for a w
She does not act like a w now
* Stop bending over backwards for her
She must treat you with respect
* Do not protect her ftom her consequences
Be patient
* This will take longer than you think
Expectations hurt you
Be compassionate
---------
Hope it helps!
My x would fight most with d20, our youngest and most vocal (and most troubled. AND probably related to what she saw from x...??)
Anyhow, these days in x's insane narrative, I am responsible for driving a wedge between x and d20,
AND d20 has suggested I did not back her up enough.
There is some truth to what SHE says b/c I wanted to keep the peace and so I tried to side 60/40 with x.
But I overlooked that when x would criticize d20 for "not pitching in enough in the house" I could have pointed out
that x was not living at the house! Being a dad and husband is more than paying the bills.
When x told me (once) that I "drove a wedge" between them, I managed to say
"H, you're going to have to spend a lot of psychic energy to believe that delusion."
So, my advice is to really ask yourself what is going on when there's a dispute.
Young people see things in a simple way sometimes,
BUT their clarity can also be the simple truth. Don't assume the argument they may have is about "who should drive" but dig into what it's really about.
Your d may feel she's not as important to her mom as her mom's outside interests
or she feels loyalty to you and wants to ENSURE her mom never does this again...
ask your C how to navigate these troubled times. Sure, kids are "resilient" But they are also human.
When x admitted (did not tell, but when asked, admitted) that he is marrying OW this month,
my older d29 cried. Said "I guess there won't be a grand lesson...this is who he is."
Maybe every kid, no matter what age, holds onto the hope that their parents will eventually reconcile and things will be good or better than before.
Which is beautiful and sweet and so very sad.
Neffer love what you found
You are wise
25 that dynamic of both looking to you to fix
Or blaming you for not fixing
That is part of the dynamic
And i am trying to get out of the fixing business
And yes
I think no matter what age
They want their parents to figure things out
It hurts them more than I know
Innocent
Hopeful
Sad
Reminds me of cathcer in the rye
So followed coach advkce on somethkng
W asked me to do something i did not want to do
It is something she could easily do for herself
I said no and that i was busy which is true
She expects me to drop whatever i am doing for her
Then she gets mad and gives me the silent treatment
Resisted temptation to reverse course and give in to her request
Why is this so hard
Does not feel this is making things better or bringing us closer
Gordie - you are facing contradictory goals both of which are noble.
Firstly you want to have your marriage back. Secondly you want to have a good marriage with reciprocity, trust and dignity. In a word - boundaries.
I think that many of us had similar marriages. When my ex would say "frog" I would jump. Over the years what started as courtesy became habit became expectation and perhaps from some points of view, became abuse.
Both of our spouses felt they could do whatever they wanted without consequences.
It is buried in a lot of the posts, especially by job, that while we grow and change and learn, our spouses don't. They also expect us to not have changed either and to be "right where they left us" as I posted to OwnIt yesterday.
You've picked the path less traveled. In some ways I'm more fortunate than you because in my case she did leave and while it appears she's not letting me go, she's showing no signs of wanting to come back so I can chart my own course. You (I believe) know where you want to go and can see your destination. Your wife is wandering around the left luggage office
I presume she is still resistant to getting counseling?
I wish I had something helpful to say but I don't.
#TeamGordie
So i did not give in and do what she asked
I did my own thing
She got over it
I think
Gordie
Re: relationship with D20 and w - leave them to it. D20 is a young adult and old enough to have a relationship with w that is separate from her relationship with you.
If she talks to you about her feelings about w listen, do not throw stones at w, just listen to D20 as she pours out her pain and frustration and anger. Hold space for her, as they say. Let them figure out their relationship moving forward.
If w tries to drag you in, make it clear that you respect them both too much to get in the middle, that ultimately you don't feel that will help anyone.
Your w needs to do that work alone. She broke their relationship; it's up to her to fix it.
She's not going to like that, most likely, but too bad.
Well done on doing your own thing.
P.S. Here is a hint: most women do not respect men they can control or push around.
Just. Saying.
#teamGordie xoxoxo
Gordie
I agree with Bttrfly-
Try to be neutral, validate each side as if your a distant therapist- and allow them to either work it out or not
If you D gets upset, explain to her you love her and respect her feelings and her side
and if W complains ,maybe find a way to nod, listen maybe without any verbal comments or agreements..maybe just mirror back what she says-I'm sorry your and D are having a hard time-
W has to figure it out and if you remind her the "truth"
she will probably point the finger at you
Hard situation
Stay out as much as you can and still let D know you are here for her and hear her-
Good luck
Butterfly and Peace
Thank you so much
It is against my nature but will try to stay out of it
No w will not like me staying out of it
But trying hard not to care
D will want mt involved too
But need to say i reapect you too much to get in the middle
Butterfly women do not respect men they can push around
Thanks for the 2 x 4
She says jump
I say how high
I am finally getting tired of it
She does not like to hear no from me ever
I have allowed myself to orbit her sun
But i need my own orbit now
That is the way Gordie: respect.
#TeamGordie
hey Gordie,
So, what's different in your M this time around? Or did you perhaps just go back to the way you were before bomb drop.
And I am not asking what is different about you. What is different about your M? What is different about how your W treats you and your dynamic?
Soooooooo........
Where are you in all of this now ???
I still read so much her, her, her, her ,her, her, MLC , MLC, MLC, her, her, MLC, her MLC, Her......
What about you ????
Where....are.....you.....??????
I think Im struggling with the same recently
I am starting to see my kids not respect W much these days
Thats a hard thing to witness
I also tend to do whatever is asked and bend over backwards to accommodate and am tired of it
ive been thinking a lot about what buttrfly said about women not respecting men they can control
i was not one to be controlled until BD and since then thats all Ive been
No more of that for us Gordie
We dont have to be vengeful about it but we do have our own thoughts and opinions and they matter
Ginger
Ginger
Things are definitely different
We are much more independent of one another
We have different friends
We spend a lot less time together
W was a sahm and took care of kids and home
Kids and Home are now much more 50-50
We no longer share religious beliefs
W is more open about her negative feelings about life
I am a better listener
We separated finances
We no longer sleep together
More later
Mach
Hey buddy
I do not like writing about myself
But because you asked
I am doing well
Work is super busy
I am exercising regularly
I am eating much better
I planned and executed two kids birthday parties
I have a new waffle recipe that is awesome
I am closer to my friends
I am enjoying church again
I am counting my blessings
Sounds like you are growing. Will she follow?
Sounding good Gordie
How about sharing that waffle recipe?
lol
DNJ
It only took me 20 months to finally hear what so many of you have said
Stop putting my life on hold
Life is too short
Standing for your M is not standing still
I cannot nice her back
Do not look back at this time as a waste
But a time of renewal and rebirth
Above was for SBJ
This is for DNJ
I love waffles
Kids love waffles
Teenagers get out of bed for these a kicking waffles
I double the recipe because I have a big crew
Two cups flour
Half teaspoon salt
Two tablespoons sugar
Three teaspoons baking powder
One and a half cups milk
Two egg
Four tablespoons melts butter
One teaspoon vanilla and or rum
Mix dry
Mix wet
Mix together
Pour into preheated waffle iron
Cooking time will vary depending upon iron
Serve hot from the iron
Serve with warm butter and syrup
And or whipped cream and berries
Side of bacon or sausage
It only took me 20 months to finally hear what so many of you have said
Stop putting my life on hold
Life is too short
Standing for your M is not standing still
I cannot nice her back
Do not look back at this time as a waste
But a time of renewal and rebirth
Who is this, and where have you hidden Gordie's body ???
Sounds like a good recipe
Ever try it with buttermilk instead of regular milk
Mach1
What can I say
I am slow
Sjohn6
Buttermilk is good for pancakes
But too think for waffles
They need to be light and fluffy
And I only use whole milk
Keep on keepin' on Gordie. It is good to see that you are doing more and growing in yourself. That is all we can do.
I understand what it is like to feel that you are growing, but the spouse is staying still or moving backwards. All we can do is put our heads down and continue to do the work.
If you would like to try the Waffle House recipe let me know and I can shoot it to you.
It only took me 20 months to finally hear what so many of you have said
Stop putting my life on hold
Life is too short
Standing for your M is not standing still
I cannot nice her back
Do not look back at this time as a waste
But a time of renewal and rebirth
Soooo....
How do YOU feel about that ^^^ ???
Mach1
How do I feel about that
I have mixed feelings
But am more at peace within myself
I can sleep again
I hope for a certain outcome
But it is out of my hands
Im glad to hear you are more at peace right now
I started trying to think of my W as a phoenix
I picture the death of the old and the phoenix struggling to break through the surface to be reborn
As the phoenix struggles to break free i come in close to get a better view and get stuck by the newly emerging phoenix that is new to this world and trying to gain purchase
the phoenix wasnt trying to hit me with debris but it happened because i come in to close
then i back up a bit to not get hit with debris and watch the newly unfolding creature emerge
i figure if i can stand back and just emerge the phoenix will settle once it is fully born and on steady ground
That may be a silly analogy but it helped me a little
Hope your day is going well Gordie
S john
Good days are outnumbering bad days
Being able to sleep through the night is amazing
Eighteen months of sleep deprivation was killing me
Is she a phoenix
Maybe
She is definitely going through some sort of transformation
Figuring out who she is
How to deal with the past
What she wants the next chapter in her life to be like
As you said it has been better for me to watch from a distance
Less likely to get burned over here
Journaling
I followed coach advice and talked to my teens
Reassured them of where things are at present
No guarantees of the future but that I would inform them if things change
I have been single parenting a while now
At all the kid events when I am alone
I have been faking it
Faking that I am happy and okay with this
But I think my faking finally crossed over to making it
I can now do those things with actual gratitude and joy
A genuine appreciation for my time with them
I would not be as involved with my kids had this not happened
And I can be thankful for that
Thankful for this season which is passing
As the older ones head off to college
That I did not miss this
W wants to do a family activity for mother s day and dinner
I said okay and made the reservations
Will get a small present
This is high family season for us
Birthdays and end of school events and father s day
And then our anniversary
Now that there is no pressure to participate
She wants to be at family activities
She has been touching me more in a friendly non sexual way
Peace be with all of you in this dark valley
Gord, I'm so glad to be hearing from you again.
Sometimes, like at the end of Shawshank Redemption, we have to crawl thru a river of chit to come out clean on the other side. This thing we are going thru is polishing us into the men (and women) that God intended us to be. It's probably not what he intended us to have to endure, but it is how it is. You are doing you...you are being the best father and the best man you can be and that is God's will for you. When our wives emerge as that so-called Phoenix we will see if either one of us recognizes the other through each of our transformations. I say that because they are changing out of some unfulfilled need to make up for or change something about their past. We are forced to change to endure for our future. Maybe we survive together or maybe we survive apart, but I do know that we will survive.
I still fake it with the kids, and other people quite often, but I feel like my more genuine, less closed-up self is beginning to emerge. There are days I lose myself in happiness just doing something silly with my son, watching a movie with him, or even taking him to get a haircut and watching him describe how he wants it done.
I think where your wife lives is immaterial these days as she is doing less overt harm to you, the kids, the family. Whether she will continue to reintegrate into the family or move the other way is an unknown and out of your control. So good to focus on the things you do control, far less crazy-making.
I like the Phoenix metaphor. Crazy how some of our situations are so strikingly similar in many ways, yet the outcomes seem to be anyone's guess.
I have so much respect for you, Gordie. Your kids are so lucky to have you be their rock. Best of luck with the upcoming family stuff.
What are you thinking for Mother's Day gift? (I'm looking for ideas that don't involve shaking my wife til she comes to her senses...)
SBJ
I wish i was not in this tunnel but i accept the raality of it
I agree that we will survive
I had my doubts
His ways are not my ways
There is a resson why this is called this valley of tears
I sill remember you in my prayers
Own it
Thank you for reassuring me thT i am not the only one faking it
Faking it is tiresome but it beats moping
Glad you are feeling like yourself again ot magbe your nee self
And yes those little ordinary moments are the ones i cherish
Jasep
RR reminded me she is bot my mother
I will take the kids to the mall and let them choose
I will foot the bill but there will not be a present from me per se
I did aend my mom something
Thank you amazon prime
Gordie - I think of you often. It's good to see you continuing to focus on you and your kids. I know how hard that is with a live-in.
Know that there is nothing you can do for her. So focus on what you can impact.
Hi Gordie
It looks like you are doing really good.
I found once I started to sleep through the night everything got so much better. Sleep deprivation is just terrible, lack of sleep keeps emotions and logic a scrambled mess. I am very glad to hear you are sleeping well.
I understand your feelings on being a single parent and faking it. Nice to see that you are making it and are experiencing genuine gratitude and joy.
Btw I remember very well your encouraging words months ago about all the things I still had to be grateful for. Thanks.
I hope Mothers Day and dinner goes well. I think it is great that your W wants to spend time and do some activities with you and the kids.
D
Hawho and DN
Thanks for taking the time to stop by
Hawho it is so hard not to want to do thkngs for her
After all this i still want to help her
But i have gotten better at letting go of that desire
And letting her help herself
And like an adult ask for help if she wants it
DNJ sleeping makes everything better
Yes i still have to fake it sometimes but i am better
M day 2018
Church solo with kids
Found myself sitting with other dads and kids with no wives
Got home and made a nice brunch
Mom got her gifts and cards
Kids said nice things about mom which touched her
Spent afternoon doing things around the house
W spent a lot of time on the phone with girl friends
M day dinner at restaurant was delicious
W asked me to take a picture of her and the kids
She posts these on social media
I am never in the pics
W spent time after dinner on phone with girl friends
I put the kids to bed and went to bed
W gave me a kiss goodnight
Mom above refers to w
Not my mom
Hi Gordie, it sounds like you offered up a great Mother's Day. I'm still following along and you sound like your doing well. Keep up the hard work and keep focusing on yourself and your kids.
Kyh
Thanks for following along
I am glad I have been pretty drama free these past few months
I hope she is baking in her oven
But who knows how long it will take
Journaling
After a nice m day I expect maybe some distancing
W went out with a girl friend after work
I fed the kids and put them to bed
Cleaned up the house and did the laundry
It was late and I was tired and went to bed
I texted w good night and fell asleep
W gets home and starts making noise and I wake up
She complains that the house is a mess
I know it is not and I am half asleep and roll over
She spends the next 30 minutes banging around
This is the new me
I resisted the temptation to jump out of bed and clean up whatever was not to her standard
I resisted the temptation to apologize
Instead I am saying to myself
What is her problem
Whatever I do it is never enough for her
SMH
I slept like a baby
In the morning I again resisted the temptation to apologize
I chit chat as if nothing happened and so does she
One day at a time
Geez.
I'm glad you didn't respond and that you slept well. Let her continue on her path while you continue on yours.
Thank you for your support on my thread. What you do is never enough because she is the only person who can fill the emptiness inside of her.
#TeamGordie
Grrrrr - and it was so profound too!
Press the "Quick Quote" button on a blank entry if you would like to read the actual post :P
AndrewP
How does that work in quick quote
Thank you
Good perspective
I actually vacuumed
And she re vacuumed
It was weird
But did not think about what you said
How can G actually take care of kids and house without w
That actually me smile
I have come a long way
Pre b d I would have asked the same
But now I know the answer that I can do so just fine
Thank you
Gordie, I just spent way too long reading your posts since you first started posting, and it was heartening to me. I don't know if you have ever read any of my posts, but I have been in the situation you were in for five years now. I became a Christian during my stand and that is how I have made it through. My husband hasn't helped me in any way for five years -- financially not a penny but also just anything else -- cleaning or cooking or walking the dog or moving the car (we live in a city where you have to move the car a lot) or doing anything whatsoever. Mostly leads a secret life but we rarely have spoken of anything. So I found it interesting and somehow inspiring to read about your changes since you started posting. You remind me of my other current hero, DnJ, you are both so quietly thoughtful and yet so full of love and hope and steadfastness. I was actually thinking about what it is in all three of us that attracted us to someone who turned out to be the opposite of that -- I mean, we weren't attracted to that, since the MLC'er is the opposite of who our mates were -- but in some ways, sure I can look back now at the seeds. And I think mine is more insane than some. I am really trying to do the same thing you are doing with an in-house prodigal spouse, but my problem is all financial because I have been trying to save our house from foreclosure and pay all our debts all on my own, and I don't make much. Every single day my H starts up again about how isn't going to live like this much longer -- e.g., with no money in his pocket when he owns half of this house (huge mortgage but even huger equity, but he doesn't understand how little would be left after capital gains and an actual division of debts, assets, etc.). I try to chat with him when he wants to but it's impossible for any conversation to go on for more than 5 minutes without it ending there. So I find no way out except to hide from him, it's the only way I can feel any peace. But then I miss out on the reconnection moments too, so it's a losing battle. Anyway, I was just struck with how similar in many ways our walk is right now, but also how different, since mine is totally disconnected from kids and unable to function as an adult at all. How both our spouses have this idea of being "open" to other religions/practices but really it's just a way to justify this horrible behavior and selfishness. Also how we both put all our trust on God and have a hope that certainly doesn't match what we can see. Thanks for posting all this time, you never know who you'll reach, and when. My thread is pretty quiet but I always feel less alone when someone posts there in a supportive way.
Gordie.....good for you for not responding to her and for not pretzeling yourself for her.
You are such an example of patience for all of us.
Like I like to say "one day at a time".......
Gerda
I cannot believe you read all my threads
O my
I so appreciate your words of encouragement
Because you truly ubderstand
I have a confession
Some days i really do feel like throwing in the towel
Filing for d
Walking away
And you have been at this for five years
And your H is still hostile
Where do you find the strength
And the fairh to keep praying
Bless you
G,
just think what filing for D would accomplish? Nothing. You would be doing it just out of spite.
Instead of looking at it as fighting for your marriage i.e. "bustin' the divorce", look at the whole process as saving yourself, your very core. As someone recently said a totally awesome quote from Shawshank redemption when the lead hero escapes the prison through the sewer: Andy Dufresne crawled through 400 yards of $[censored] and came out on the other side smelling of roses.
Vapo
My rational and faithful side agree with you
And i feel i could never do that to my kids
But the emotional side or the flesh in biblical terms gets tired
That is when you guys tell me
More faith
More patience
This will take longer than you think
Keep expectations at zero
Journaling
W and i have not had marital relations in almost a year
We stopped when she started dating OM2
Stopped touching each other at all
It pained me to be in the same room
After the affair ended things began to slowly thaw
At first it was incidental touching
Then touching like a friend
Now she wants more hugs
Or will pat me on the *****
This has been slowly building over four months
We are still sleeping separately
And we still have never spoken of her affair
I have not initiated this contact or sought to escalate it
I have avoided all R talks
I have mixed feelings about marital relations
On the one hand I am excited about this prospect
On the other I feel there is a lot of sweeping under the rug
Maybe that is okay
Forgive and forget
Am I withholding physical contact out of spite
Maybe not sure
Or just fear of physical rejection
Is she pursuing
Am I distancing
How to end this cycle
Hi Gordie - just about to go into a boring conference call and saw your post.
Setting aside the emotional issues for a moment you know that she has most likely been having unprotected sex with men whose history you don't know and who quite probably she should not have trust in. Nothing you've posted has indicated that she has gone to get tested. If sex does happen - protection will be necessary.
As a LOL and as an indication that you are open but concerned, just get a box of condoms and put them on your night-stand. Either it will open a conversation, or it won't. I believe (and hope) that they have a long shelf life. I think my (completely unused) box has been on my dresser for about a year.
Since I love pressing analogies far beyond reasonable bounds, let's say that you sweep everything under the rug which is the most likely direction of you are both passive about this. If you have pile of unknown junk under the carpet and then try to build something on top of it, it will never have a solid and stable foundation.
This "can" work but you'll never be able to relax because it could all come falling down at any time.
I'm sure I'm not saying anything you've not known already for a while.
How best to deal with this? I have no clue but you've got some smart people around you IRL I believe who know more about this than I ever will.
#TeamGordie
#TeamGordie for sure...we are all in your corner and only time will tell for sure.
I almost spit my coffee out about the box of condoms on the night stand. That being the funniest thing I've heard in a long time, actually is an interesting idea. But, since you have kids in the house might not be the best idea. However, next time she pats you on your ***, pat her right back on her *** and see how she responds. But, only if you are feeling it.
I'm off for a weekend away touring Easttexas Breweries, Wineries, Distilleries. I'm sure I'll be singing "People Say I've Got a Drinkin' Problem" all weekend long.
Gordie, I have a different take on this because I am a woman and because I know you are a Christian. Did you ever read what Charlyne says about sex with the prodigal spouse? Or hear her MP3 on that topic? I think it could give you something to think about.
As a woman, I don't agree with what the guys here have said. No woman wants to see a box of condoms to get her in the mood! That would just make me really sad and in this case it is a reminder to her that she cheated if you didn't ever use condoms before. It sounds like a bitter challenge to me.
As a Christian woman -- I think sex is a sacred act and we all know that it can be the most loving connection if between husband and wife. When she did that with OM2, it was more related to what animals do and it was not sanctified; I know that sounds really old fashioned but that's what I believe and have experienced. I know that the OM stuff is so painful to think about; that's why you have to take those thoughts captive. I saw texts from my H that called the OW "my secret other wife." I can't tell you how the devil used to taunt with that and sometimes still does. When I found out she was local, for about a year, I walked around the city terrified, looking at every woman's face thinking that anyone could be the next one to betray me that way, it was a serious PTSD that I have only controlled through prayer.
But the point is that these OP are not the "other wife" or husband, only the secret. Nothing born in the dark could ever be anything but dark. Sex with your wife is part of the light.
If you do want to think about being intimate with your wife again, I think it's part of God's plan to do that before you are fully restored, even if it's awkward and complicated and emotionally painful if you do end up doing that now. Even something almost purely physical is sacred if between you two, and you just have to keep trusting God to slowly make that something comfortable for you again. But if you want to be the initiator of that kind of contact and not have it just happen in the moment for some reason, I would say that I would rather go for a walk in the moonlight and hold hands, or get some sweet texts or notes over a couple of weeks than see a box of condoms or get a pat on the rear.
And I would also say, if you can, find out how close you can get to God through celibacy. I have been doing that for five years and I assure you that you will find a beauty in that too. It might be the only time in your life when you can devote yourself wholly to God's plan and that might be part of his plan, for you to be chaste until the time is right.
Sorry if this is over the top Christian or 19th century but I really live by this so I wanted to offer one more perspective here.
I loved so much what you wrote to me here. I will write more later, on a deadline! But I feel fortified by your words and by your understanding, thank you!
Awesome advice SBJ. Pat her right back. She initialled. See what happens.
Might just end the cycle.
Lots of questions. Withholding out of spite, sweeping under the rug, fear of rejection, pursuing, distancing... I get it.
Over the last four months things are getting a little better. I would not worry about what is under the rug just yet, or R talks, or the affair. I think there will be time for that later, she is not ready yet.
She appears to be reaching out a bit. She wants more hugs, so hug back. You two are probably conversing more, enjoy it. Keep expectations low, live in the present, enjoy the moment. Be prepared to back off quickly if needed.
I understand your mixed feeling of material relations as things thaw out even more. I would fully expect you to have mixed feelings regard this. However, the fact you are thinking about that, suggests there has been more than vague clues. So eventually you are going to have to reconcile your emotions.
My advice. Your going to be mixed up for a while. So for the moment acknowledge your emotions and set them side, besides they are going to change anyhow. Follow your beliefs, your emotions will settle sooner or later. Ok, really nice big example. In the future, hopefully not too distance, you and W have reconciled and have a new strong M. I imagine you will not have mixed emotions then. You just got to get there.
IMO, W is being a friend and might just be starting to slowly move forward to more than just roommate / friend. W is reaching out to you a little more. I remember your coach telling you re sex - make her beg for it. I do not know about begging, but it looks like you think she moving towards asking or initiating. If so, better get a handle on those emotions.
Remember you believe in W. You believe in M. Isnt that why you were standing?
Andrew SBJ DNJ
Thank you
I was leaving and she came to hug me and squeezed my a so i did the same to her playfully and all was good
I do not think i could do the condoms but it did make me chuckle
Yes there is a big pile of s under the rug that i am willing to ignore right now
DNJ thank you for the reminders of why i am standing
Yes my emotions are mixed up right now
I am doing better at acknowledging those dang things and letting them go
I have been very steady recently so not sure why i am getting so emotional
Gerda
Yes and thank you
We share the same beliefs about sex
I do not find them old fashioned
That podcast was amazing and i never would have found it
It has gotten me thinking abouy what happens when your spouse loses his or her faith
Seems like you let them go and pray a lot
I demand respect and fidelity and right now she treats me with respect and is not chasing OMs
We still have walls up around each other
But i do feel they are very slowly coming down
There is a poster on newcomers hoosjjm
Who went from ready to divorce to happily ever after in a very short period of time
I think my fantasy was thst i would get thst dramatic turnaround and tears and remorse and passionate love making
I am clearly on a diffeerent and slower path
So another positive change in me to note
I speak my mind a lot more than i used to
At work it has resulted in more leadership and responsibility
At home my kids talk to me more
I am more comfortable saying what others find uncomfortable
But it leads to better outcomes
Journaling
W called me yesterday to just chat
Things were fine and she was asking my advice about something
Not sure why but conversation definitely went off track
She started attacking me as if i was questioning her judgment which i was not
My old self would apologize ot counter attack
This time I just listened
She exhaused her complaint and i offered no apology
We then went on to a different topic and things were fine
So i can only control me
W is feeling safer expressing and venting her negative feelings
I think my only role is to listen and validate
I do not need to apologize for everything
I do not need to avoid the conflict
I just need to be present and listen
I do not need to defend myself or counter attack
Very well done. You handled the conversation well. Sometimes, defending ourselves tends to fuel their anger fire more than it normally would. Listening opens the door to actually hearing what they are saying/trying to tell us. The more they talk, the more we will eventually learn about them.
Gordie, just reading this made me tired for you. I think I've learned that it is possible to find peace inside chaos, to lose it, and to find it again.
Totally inspiring, Gordie, you are a rock and it is amazing. I like the script you are providing for me too. Mine doesn't usually get to an end, it just increases, but maybe I am not really trying what you are doing. I owe you a longer reply from my thread too, just crazy working. But your posts to me and on your thread mean a lot to me in my stand, thank you!
P.S. I have often thought of how Christ responds to Pilate with silence and then "As you have said," and nothing else. I wanted to do this myself so many times but I can never figure out how. Your script here explains how. It also indicates that you know the truth and you are not confused. I love that. I get confused lately, even though it's five years in. It's just very tiring to stay clear-headed!
Gordie, good job just listening.
W called you to ask for advice, you gave some, and she looked at it as you judging her. This reminded me of the caution about do not give advice even if they ask for it.
I think that is because we would tend to defend our given advice and escalate the argument. However, if advice is asked for, and you can remain calm and silent, I believe letting her vent some of that out of her is a good thing.
It is very nice to hear about your positive changes at work and at home. The kids speaking to you more - awesome!
btw I have a similar fantasy full of remorse and tears also. Yep, different path and much slower.
Gord and DnJ, we all have that sudden remorse fantasy, but that is the part where we should all have ZERO expectations for that to actually happen. In one of my daily devotionals today it had a great point...it said that,
"The only remedy is to switch your focus from the problem to My Presence. Stop all your striving, and watch to see what I will do. I am the Lord"!
We tend to put much of our focus on the problem and strive to fix it, instead of waiting on God to handle what he is trying to handle. He is greater than our problems and also knows what is best for us. He doesn't need our help.
Anyway, it spoke to me this morning. Thinking and praying for you guys!
SBJ, your quote really helped me today. I have not read your story but I will take a look soon. Thank you for the quote! I saw you are in TX -- I had a prayer partner in Texas for a while -- her marriage is totally restored (thus not so much of a prayer partner with me anymore!) and she runs a restaurant near Houston called the Red Oak. If you are near there, you will probably love it, there are messages like that all over the walls and you might find a marriage conference going on and support in your stand.
Garda...There are several "Red Oak" restaurants in and around Houston. I'd love to meet them. Was it the grill or cafe?
Job thank you
She has been wanting to talk more
And I am actively listening
Even if I would rather be doing something else
Ownit
Peace inside chaos
Nice summary but as you have encouraged
I have to find that peace within that has nothing to do with my situation
Gerda
I do not know if I changed or she changed
But now if she speaks respectfully then I will listen
And the criticism that has no merit no longer hurts me the way it used to
It makes me s m h and ask what is wrong with her today
I know it has nothing to do with me
DNJ and SBJ
It has taken me a long time to get here
So I am trying to still fix my m
Difference is I am no longer trying to fix her
Thank you for the quote
Journaling
So I am 21 months into this
And w is trying to re engage as Home Maker
This is generally good and she is helping again
Trouble is kids and I have gotten used to her disengagement
We can cook and clean and do laundry and everything else without her
Issue is we do not do things the way she wants them done
The food is not good enough
The house is not clean enough
She critiques my parenting
Exhausting
D returned from college
And she does not know how to deal with w
There is heavy tension but I am trying to stay out of it
But am concerned it will explode before long
Generally feeling good about life
Work is good
Kids are better
Hitting the gym regularly
Lost my winter weight
Looking forward to beach season
Hi -- I don't think I am allowed to put links here, so this may be blocked, but it's this one --
http://www.redoakcafe.comIt's in League City. Ask for Kim! I met her at a Rejoice Marriage Ministries meeting in Florida. It's good to have support, that's for sure!
So w has not been attending any kids events for the last few months
Earlier this week she came to one late
I had saved her a seat but she stood in the back
She also left early so did not see her
Seems like she is okay with private dates
But still does not want to be seen in public with me
While some may say this is teenager ish
My teens always sit with me
So expectations
I guess I do not expect her at these events any more
But I guess I expected that if she showed up she would sit with me
Just a reminder that no
Things are not normal
Still a long way to go
Keep expectations at zero
So I will keep living my life and pushing forward
And hope some day she can catch up
Maybe it isn't that she doesn't want to be seen with you, but that she feels the glaring eyes of society for the things she has done when she does and her shame won't let her do it.
Day by day. Hour by hour. Minute by minute.
Gord, it is interesting that she doesn't want to sit with you guys, but it great that you have gotten yourself to the point of zero expectations when it comes to that. My ex seems to not have that problem...we sat next to one another at my daughters end of the year dance recital and also at my youngest sons awards ceremony.
I have even invited her to dinner with all of us a few times... she rejected it each time, but I guess the guy not fearing rejections anymore in me keeps it up thinking that one day she will say, what the heck. Keep on keepin' on my brother.
You all inspire me in such a big way
Gordie hats off to you for having the patience of a saint
I think OwnIt is spot on in his assessment
So you and the kids should not take it personally that she prefers to come late leave early and stand in the back
Stay strong brother
maybe she felt self conscious going there in the first place and felt it would have caused more disruption to come sit in the audience rather than being unobtrusive in the back.
leaving early - i dunno -- she is avoiding something and my bet is that it's not you.
hang in. xoxo
Ownit sbj jasep butterfly
Thanks for the encouragement
And reminders she has her own reasons for doing or not doing what she does
And it usually does not have to do with me
Stop mind reading
Be patient
So new wrinkle as w has been meandering back towards family
She has revealed a lot of debt she has gotten herself into
Early on i divided our finances
To protect myself
So now what do i do
She has revealed a lot of debt she has gotten herself into
Early on i divided our finances
To protect myself
So now what do i do
First off. Don't be surprised. Wait - oh you're not.
First off - I'm not sure in your jurisdiction on whether you are liable for debts she took out in her name. I hope they weren't done jointly.
From the tone of your note, you are feeling the urge to rescue but you are not wanting to do that for lots of reasons I would presume. People like us have the natural tendency to rescue our princesses and to protect them from the ravages of the world.
My suggestion would be to perhaps look at this as if it were one of the older kids in a similar situation. How would you handle that?
In a similar conversation, my son's best friend who I occasionally mention as "20 something" got herself into a relatively small hole this past spring. Her credit was about to be destroyed and she reached out to me, not wanting to admit to her parents that she was in difficulty. I half expected her to ask me to write her a cheque with a vague offer to pay me back some day. I didn't want to say no. She's a nice kid even if she sends me far too many SnapChat pictures that include her ample cleavage (different story). She asked me to cosign for her instead. I did and we talked about different payment plans (since she's a novice at managing debt) and she now gives the bank money every 2 weeks after her pay day. Hasn't missed a payment. I told her though both directly and in front of the bank loan officer that I believed in her and trusted her to make good on the loan and mentioned that when my ex and I were in serious financial trouble about 15 years ago that others had believed in us and that was how we got our feet under us.
Not sure if that story applies to you or not Gordie but it may give you food for thought.
There's another story that I read here a looong time ago where the BS bought his wayward wife an expensive car thinking that would attract her back to him. She drove off in the car to her lover leaving him behind with the car payments.
People can be selfish and not be accountable for their own messes.
Gut reaction:
Do nothing. Not your circus. Not your monkeys.
BUT, you are legally married. I'd find out from a lawyer if you have any legal responsibility on the debt.
If not, I'd let her figure out her own mess.
If she wants a partner, she needs to act like one.
If she is acting like a wayward teen looking for help from Daddy, I'd give that a pass, but that's just me.
Remember, my best efforts got me divorced.
xoxoxoxo
#TeamGordie
Gordie, since you are a Christian -- I would wait. It just happened that you found out. You don't have to figure that out right now. See what she does. See what God does. A hint is not a request for help.
I try to navigate the world of self-protection and the obligations of marriage. Realizing what would happen in a divorce actually helped me understand that I will have burdens either way. I am bearing the cross of a lot of my H's debt because we are married and the debt is under my name. It is starting to hurt too much on both practical and emotional levels but I am still waiting until it is very clear to me what to do because divorce is the only way out of that. I did cut off any path I could for him to get money or credit cards that are in my name. But all that happened before that, I am slowly trying to chip away at. If you go by faith, it won't be fair or just by the world's standards. You can choose to do what's just and that will be just fine. You can also choose to do the thing that only makes sense in a faith context. Read Hosea. Wait. You'll know what to do when the time comes that you have to decide. I don't think it's a good idea to buy anyone anything to get them to come back, that isn't love either. But I do think it's a good idea to stand until your marriage is fully restored and then to cover each other's sins, when and if your wife is ever ready to actually do that.
Gordie you sound OK. Glad to see that. You are in limbo a place I know too well and one I hoped you would avoid. But you have decided that it is the best path for you. Maybe it is. I just wanted to drop upi a few lines yo let you know I am still on team gordie.
I haven't read everything but I hope you have some AWESOMEpplans for new fun stuff ahead. Something to get excited about and look forward to. Being in limbo doesn't mean you being stuck.
I'll be back when I can. Until then best wishes
Gordie, as you say W is meandering back towards the family and you did separate finances to protect yourself. So do not assume any of her debt. ,et her keep that in her name alone.
If she asked for it, I would like to think that offering some financial advice on lowering spending and paying off her debt would be great, but I believe it would be as well received as it is with my own kids. Besides advice and MLCer spouses does not seem to mix.
So if you want, and it seems warranted, you could offer some help with payments. I do not know her amount of income compared to yours or the amount of debt. However you could match her payments, or match just whatever extra payment she makes above the minimum - that may entice her to work towards finding ways to help herself out of debt. Something along those lines may work well and its success would hinge on how much effort W puts into it.
Doing good Gordie.
Gordie, I keep checking to see if you have posted on your thread. Thinking of you.
Thanks for checking in
Tollowed advice and have said nothing about her debt
Life is good with end of school activities and work
So big development is w came to talk to me about her childhood trauma
I listened and listened some more
She acknowledges that her issues damaged our M
She kissed me on the lips
Still sleeping separately and no sex
We argued once because she wants me to tell her where i am going at all times
I stopped doing this last year and have continued not to do so
She also feels as if i am keeping my distance and she asked me why
I said you hurt me very badly
And she said nothing and gave me a hug
Gordie, I am so happy to hear your gentle voice on the threads again! I even like the way you write your posts out like lines of a poem.
I think that the exchange with your W was perfect -- how you were clear but didn't go into long explanations. I think her silence and hug was a very good sign that she understood. My H never asks where I am or cares at all, so to me it is wonderful that she wants to know where you are. But I see that your boundary is keeping you sane. I obviously need some of that sanity myself if you see how stupidly I still respond to my H a lot of the time. I will try to channel Gordie more.
Wow. That sounds like quite the development. She seems to be making the smallest microsteps in the right direction. Sometimes I feel like watching MLC progress is like watching grass grow. No, I guess grass actually grows faster, doesnt it.
I have mixed emotions about not telling W where Im going. I dont, but I also raised issue about her not telling me earlier on and then she started telling me. Not full transparency, but I think she tries to let me know whats going on. Now I kind of feel like if I expected it from her and she attempts to try then I should lead by example. Its mixed emotions because I also know that I want to tell her out of love but she is doing it out of obligation.
I also think its good that she recognizes that you keep her at a distance. Been keeping my W at a distance lately but I dont feel like she even notices. She probably does but forms her own opinion about why.
You handle yourself well, brother. You are an inspiration. Team Gordie all the way!
Very well done Gordie. That is indeed quite a development. She acknowledges her childhood trauma and is telling you about it. I would put that in the positive colum.
Her talking about how her issues damaged your M, a couple of things leap to mind. Using the word damaged not destroyed, might give an indication of the severity she perceives. Also it appears she is showing some responsibility toward what has transpired.
I have similar thoughts as sjohns6 towards keeping your distance and not telling her where you are going. At some point things will have to change. However for now probably a wait and see approach is best. Get some more consistent actions. (Wow, a kiss on the lips!
)
You are doing great. Stay the path and keep those pesky expectations low.
How are things between W and D19 working out?