This is my first post here. I need help.
I'm so very down, confused and hurt. My story is complicated and involved leading up to the separation but to summarise my husband initiated separation Mid September 2017. He went out to lunch with a female friend on his only day off when he hadn't done anything with me for a long time. I happened to walk in on them at the cafe. He was embarrassed and annoyed and came home and told me he couldn't "do it" (us) anymore and that I never let him have friends or do anything for himself (not true). He said he wasn't sure if he loved me anymore and that he didn't know what he wanted in his life. He said he needed to move out and find himself and be closer to his new work because he was exhausted all the time, but he would use that time to recover physically and emotionally from an unsuccessful business and overworking and from my high demands (I wanted him to do some things with me, be kind rather than yelling and belittling me, and to put some effort in after his EA was uncovered at work).
Leading up to him iniating separation he'd been very emotionally distant, and angry with me due to work and he had a 2 year EA with a woman at work which devastated me, but it eventually got uncovered because all of the staff noticed their off behaviour. He reluctantly did some couples counselling, but didn't really try, and I feel did not put in a sincere effort to repair the marriage. He offered one short "I'm sorry I hurt you" and one daytrip out to make up for 2 years of infatuation with his EA and lunching with her every day, but nothing else.
So he moved out 29th Sept 17 and I supported him, telling him that if he was tired and drained from over work and depression that I would give him the time and space he needed. For the first few weeks he kept up frequent contact and updates on how he was doing and even visited home once and we saw a movie. He invited me to dinner for our anniversay, and gave me a thoughtful card. He also did some nice things that he never did in our marriage and even made steps to have the woman who he had the EA with (who was also continually disrepectful to me) in the business to be replaced if she didn't lift her attitude towards me. There were signs of life.
But by December 30th when we attended a wedding, he'd started losing weight, he had removed his wedding ring and he was sounding more removed. He made no furhter offers to come home and help with things or to go out together. During the entire time he was gone I was working on myself so hard and applying the 180 (in fact I'd been doing it since Dec 17 when his EA had gotten out of hand). I was constantly cheery, supportive, working on my own happiness and pulled back on communication, allowing him to make contact with me - which he did.
But on the 5th of Feb 2018 I got a nasty shock. I was sent an email by accident (on our home account), stating that his Tinder Gold subscription was about to expire. I was shocked, devastated and gutted. He was looking for a girlfriend or to hook up.
I phoned him to give him the option of coming clean and he said nothing about it. I waited 5 days in agony for him to say something. I vascilled between thinking he was on his own and the lonliness caused him to be tempted, to imagining him casually hooking up and thinking he was the world's biggest [censored]. Finally 5 days later he sent me a text message that I can only describe as incredulous. It read "*****(my name), I know you must hate me and for that I'm sorry. On another note I've made some very important inroads in the business and I ask you for the time being not to email anyone, as I'm working on a deal"
And that was it. He confirmed the worst in one callous, cold, removed sentence and then moved on to the topic of business. After 5 days of no sleep, worry and vomiting and then receiving the most insensitive text message ever, I sent him a harsh email, calling him out on his cowardly approach, deception, his lack of sensitivity, his insanity of thinking he could just barely acknowldge what he's done and expect me to focus on business matters and how I'd trusted him and given him the space and faith he needed to recover. I also brought up how hurt I'd been by his EA and how he'd never answered for it, or his anger, honesty, avoidance and indulgence issues and that if he wanted me to be able to move forward in any capacity (including business), that he'd better think seriously about making amends with me starting by explaining himself in person (and I recommendd he read Michele's book Healing from Infidelity).
He sent back an extremely nasty email telling me it was over and that despite what I though he was sorry, and if he was a coward it was only because he was trying to do what was best for me - to let me down easy. He said he was sick of the guilt and shame for past behaviour. He said that he realised that he went looking on tinder because he would rather go there than return back to me because he was lonely. He said he realised he would not return to me no matter how unhappy he was. He also said we would never get back together becuase it was clear I'd not forgiven him for past mistakes, and then said from this point forward he no longer wanted to share any of his private life and that he would be using a another bank account and email for his personal use.
I've been in a mess since. I tried, I really tried and while he was away I had thought so much about him and owned so much of my own issues. I was ready to be more open and grateful with him and to love him more and I thought (or at least hoped that while he was away that he was thinking about his part in our problems too and how he might improve). How devastating to know that he was just trying to have a long good bye, a "soft and graceful" exit, hoping that I'd move on, or that he was planning to say in a few months that the distance has created a divide and he happened to meet someone - except that he couldn't because he'd got caught on Tinder and was now angry with me.
He phoned yesterday to check in on me, telling me that I sounded ok, that he worried about me and he did care. He also suggested we meet together to sort out the details of separating our assets.
So it really, really seems final.
I'm so confused becuase I don't know if I was too forgiving (of his EA and going out to lunches and breakfasts with other women but never me), his anger and verbal abuse and not trying in counselling, or not forgiving enough.
In spite of it all I still wish in my heart that he would return to me with a full and open spirit, willing to admit AND work on his mistakes and bad behaviour as I have mine - but alas I don't think there is any reason to hope and I think I'm kidding and killing myself hoping for a happy outcome. I cannot belive this is the man I married and had worked so hard for 18 years to buld a life with and how he seems so happy that it's all out now and he's free to do whatever he wants.
I so very much need your help, advice and support. Please anyone who has had a similar experience offer me your wisdom. Michele WD are you there? Do I go dark and not communicate at all unless it is regarding dividing assets. We are meant to work together occasionally in a business we co-own.
When he rang, I was civil but could not bring myself to sound cheery or like life was good or I was moving on.
Please help.
Welcome to the MLC Forum. I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome thread w/lots of homework, so read and ask questions as they come along.
Welcome to the MLC Forum. You will meet people who are at various stages of dealing w/the fallout of their spouses being MIA. I am going to post below, Cadet's Welcome Posting. Please read the links and then come back and ask questions, if you should have any.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
Me-63, D30,S29
I am so sorry you are having to deal with this situation, but it sounds very familiar to many of the postings here. First, take a step back and breathe!
I urge you to separate your finances as much as possible, especially your credit card and bank accounts. If you don't want to do this, then watch them very, very closely because he's going to be spending a lot of money to make himself happy.
I suggest that you seek the advice of a lawyer, at least get a good idea of what you are entitled to if a divorce should happen. Do not share that info w/him. Do not share anything you read and/or learn here with him either. Be sure to take photos of all of your possessions around the home so that if there a split of assets, you have proof of what was in the home as to material items.
If, at all possible, refrain from contacting him unless it is an emergency. Otherwise, start living your life as if he may not return. Right now, it's all about him and he is singing the "me, me, me" song and is only interested in making himself happy. In other words, he's being a very selfish, self centered man that is acting out like a 2 year old wanting all and giving nothing in return.
The time has come for you to focus on yourself, do what you need to do to protect yourself and your assets. Believe nothing of what he says and yes, he'll make all sorts of promises and will not follow thru on them. They will even sign legal documents agreeing to do such things and then not doing them. So believe nothing of what he says and only half of what he does. Watch the body language especially the eye contact.
If you state you are going to do something to him, then do it. Actions speak louder than words. As long as you don't rock his boat, he may very well be nice to you, but if you call him out on things, he will most likely come out swinging, i.e., you've already had a taste of that.
Again, keep the focus on you. Leave him to his sorry self. Remember, you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him and also, he fired you as his wife, lover and companion.
Breathe! It's one step at a time.
Equanim - I'm sorry you are here - the last place you probably ever wanted to be.
job is a font of wisdom who helped me a whole lot and she gives solid advice.
I'm somewhat cynical so keep that in mind when I suggest fairly strongly that you also see your MD about getting tested for STDs. If he's been using Tinder there's a good chance he's had a hook-up. People in MLC are infamous for risky behaviour. You may also want to see about getting some counseling for yourself. I know that my therapist was a life-saver.
Because of the fact that he lies you can't be sure that it was "just" an EA as well. Assume and prepare for the worst. He's living in crazy-town right now and his actions and attitude can turn on a dime.
As job points out, you need to care for yourself first and foremost. Just like in an airplane when the masks drop from the ceiling, you can't be of any use to others if you aren't taken care of first.
Go through the homework and also get to know the "neighbours".
Good luck.
Thanks so much!
You can call me Equanimity.
I'd done much of the homework prior to the split and during the separation. I'd read "The divorce remedy" and "Healing from infidelity" and thought they were terrific.
We did 2 types of counselling. The first lasted 2 sessions and he pulled out and continued his EA. Later it was DB telephone coaching. We did 2 separate sessions and one together. He resisted everything and pulled out before the last prepaid session.
No his EA wasn't physical (I kept very close secret tabs, I know, I know you shouldn't do that and I stopped the snooping last year after putting in to practice the 180).
He says he only just started Tinder (which I'm inclined to believe because otherwise I would have got the email earlier - he forgot his persoanl paypal account was set to our home email). Also the losing weight and removing his ring was more recent and I think that was the beginning of it or the lead up to it.
I've started the financial investigations and am seeing a lawyer for a one off professional advice session today. Alas I cannot get a lawyer becuase of the situation with the business. In a nut shell I don't have an income and have had to start all over again working for myself becuase of it. I'd already started listing items I the house and was going to take photos this week but my phone storage was full so I have to fix that before I can)
Counselling... well I've been having it since November 2015, when his EA was in full swing in the business and right under my nose and I was being treated badly by all of the staff and other business partners partly becuase he was leading the way with a terrible example. It was hell for me and some of the things that happened with work, you just couldn't make them up. It's been disgusting.
Thanks Job for the suggestions on eye contact and to believe nothing of the promises. I will take it literally from now on (rather than a guide) and assume I will get no help with the house/finances or that he "Cares and worries for me" is a complete fabrication to try and numb my pain and his guilt.
I have read many books (both marriage and self healing/development ones) and done a tone of self development work over the time, but I need more obviously. I read the post on Pursuer and Distancer dance and it was pretty spot on- so I've still got lots to learn.
I will read the links.
He's been texting/emailing to ask about some work things. I don't know whether to give one word answers (to be as dark as possible), or whether to be more polite and add in a "regards", or "have a nice day" sign off to be civil and leave the door slightly open (becuase the divorce remedy says act as if you are doing fine and you are happy and they may eventually notice and gradually be won back).
If I limit contact to emergencies does that mean:
* I don't ask him about work stuff (which is important becuase it will help me decide if I want out of the business, which was goig to be my future financial security)
* Should I be catching up with him as suggested to work out assets, or just wait it out until he is really desperate? He had said during the separation that he was hoping to be smart with our separation and if we didn't get back together that we could work out something fair and amicable. He put forward that I get the house and he gets the business. (I don't think he knows that that is still a complicated solution becuase the house IS security for the business.)
* Also I had wanted him to at least tell me in person and answer a few questions regarding his behaviour and he had said he would "explain". Do I bring this up or allow him to or not?
And my biggest question is: Was I too unforgiving or not forgiving enough?
He said sorry after his EA and for some other things (abusive verbal outbursts and other poorly thought out choices) - and I believed he thought he was. It was that he didn't reallly lift his game towards me afterwards - he didn't try to win me in any respect. He wanted to "move past it" but that also felt to me like rug sweeping because he hated answering questions becuase he thought they only led to more - and yes I was one of those people that if he told me something and I'd think about it and then ask another deeper question it generated in me. To him this was me never getting over it and when I raised those things in my email response he used that to say I'd never forgiven him (and therefore that was the end of our relationship).
I was lashing out, because discovering his Tinder activity opened up old wounds and showed me that he never really got it (ie what being sorry looked and felt like). I had actually never said I'd forgiven him for his EA because that's what I wanted to work through in counselling - but he pulled the pin.
So which was I? Not forgiving enough or too forgiving?
I know forgiveness means letting go of btterness and resentment, but what does forgiveness look like - does it mean you start with a clean slate, trust them and never think about or bring up the old behaviour? Or do you still remember and it still hurts, but you try not to let it get to you? Does it mean you want it to work but still don't feel loved because they don't treat you well (or as well as the EA, friends or co-workers). Does it mean you are confident and have total faith in them?
It's a question that is eating me up.
Equanimity.
Only you can determine whether you were too forgiving or not. What are your thoughts on this? Which way do you feel you went too forgiving or not?
If he's contacting you, you don't have to respond asap. You can wait an hour or two or even a day or so. You can reply back to him in a general manner. If the responses just require a yes or no, then so be it. Try to think of him as a co-worker and treat him as such for now.
Let him come to you to set up a time to discuss assets. Listen to what he has to say, but don't agree w/anything until you've sought legal counsel.
As for lashing out at him...it will do no good. It will only give him more justification for leaving. I know you felt you had very good reasons for doing so, but you need to work on this subject w/your counselor. There will come a time when you will be able to speak to him about everything and a new relationship will need to have many of those things brought to light and certainly not swept under the rug...but that's a long way down the road. Right now, you need to focus on the here and now and leave the future to unfold. The past is the past and you can't change it; the present is a gift and one that should be your main focus at the moment and the future will reveal itself in due time. You can't rush the process for him nor for yourself.
Also, here's another link you may want to read:
Sandi2's 37 Rules #2
He had said during the separation that he was hoping to be smart with our separation and if we didn't get back together that we could work out something fair and amicable. He put forward that I get the house and he gets the business. (I don't think he knows that that is still a complicated solution becuase the house IS security for the business.)
May I ask what kind of business? And what Kind of income has it been producing? Realistically, if he got the business and you the house, would he be able to secure other financing elsewhere? Is the success of the business primarily dependent on him (that is, if he spins out does the business go down the tubes or could you step in and run it? Could YOU take the business?)
These sound like complicated financial matters and you definitely will need a business savvy divorce attorney to guide you.
As to whether or not you were forgiving enough - look, it's a moot point because he never made the effort. He wouldn't make a real try at counseling, probably because he, like most WASs, had already made up his mind to get out of the relationship.
How long were you married? Do you have kids? What are your employment prospects if you give him the business in a divorce?
I recommend you find out all you can about your financial options. Begin living your life for YOU. Get out and have fun, try new hobbies, travel if you can afford it or take a weekend to go visit a girlfriend if you can't. Let him wonder about all the fun you seem to be having without him, even if you have to fake it. Stop holding on to him. He's more likely to come back if he thinks he may lose you, more likely to tug against the leash if he feels you trying to hold onto him. And you may well find, once you've put your new life together, that he doesn't fit into it, and that's all right too. You may find you LIKE not walking on eggshells around a negative person.
I can't say too much about the business because I don't want give to much away.
We have a centre and we teach students. We run lengthy part time courses, short full time courses as well as membership programs to learn at your own pace. The house was used as security to set up the business at the centre. There are other business partners who did the same to set it up. The business is in deep debt and to cut costs and pare back the debt so it didn't close stopped paying us (not my fault as although I'm an owner, H and the other partner(s) made sure I didn't have too much position/power/influence - like I said you couldn't make up some of the things they have done and what has happened). It will be several years before it is in the black at this rate.
Yes I will be getting legal and financial advice. Some part of me wanted to work out the finance amicably, but I can see from reading about the WAS who shows signs of remorse and emotional connection, they can flip at any moment and are often feeling sad and lonely which is different to being truly comitted. Being accomodating only helps THEM to ease themselves into the situation rather than experiencing real consequences that might help them wake up sooner to the damage their actions cause. Even though I'm screwed financially without a job right now, I'm thinking I should push things along to separate things financially (or have him think I am anyway), so that he's not comfortable. If I get and sell the house (and he gets the business), then his business has to cough up money owed becuased the house is security for the debt. Anyway I digress - this is about my healing right now and negotiating a WAS with MLC.
I did want to speak to him in person to get some answers about his actions to help me with "closure" and I thought it was the least I deserved after 18 years, rather than a text and email. I'm not sure now if I should - whether that will be percieved as pressure and being too open and needy. It was meant to happen tomorrow. So in everyone's wise opinion do I have the talk or not, and how do I carry myself during it? I guess emotion is out of the question when talking to him.
The same goes for the business. Unless and until I decide I want out, I will have to see him and discuss business decisions at some point - even if I limit my contact. How do you recommend I am around him in the business and when discussing matters? Do I I hug back and give a peck on the cheek as he is likely to initate this at some point or do I pull back simply say Hi or Bye?
I thought it would kill me to see him and it might raise emotions, however after reading the stuff on persuer/distancer relationships and MLC I actually feel a bit better because I can see how he fits into it so well - and it makes me more clinical about observing his past and current behaviour (for now anyway while I'm on an "up"). So I'm wondering if I can see him at work becuase I can be more removed or regardless whether I shoukd keep clear during his MLC because even being present could be agitating and pressure? Your thoughts on this please?
Equanimity
Can someone experienced please advise/help?
I was meant to be meeting up with him today so that he could "explain" in person his behaviour (I asked him to at least face me in person and tell me why rather than send me a 1 sentence text message to confirm the worst).
Do I meet and how do I act? Blaze? No emotion? Do I say how I truly feel because I may never get the chance again?
I wanted to ask him how long he'd been on tinder for and if he'd been corresponding or met up with anyone while we were suposedly still together and when had he made up his mind to do these during the separation becuase for a time he had acted like we were together)
Equanimity.
Mr Cynical here. First off, what are you hoping to get out of this meeting? If it's honesty, your odds aren't high. Real honesty will only come after remorse. You may not get anything at all since he's nowhere near remorse by the sounds of things. Especially about anything that he's either ashamed of or things that he figures is "none of your business".
I met with my ex (then W) in November 2016 during a period when (it turned out) that she and OM had temporarily broken up. She avoided all direct questions so while not lying, there wasn't any real telling of truth going on.
One thing that will come out of this meeting will very likely be fresh hurt for you. Even now we're divorced and it's been almost 2 years since BD - it still hurt when I had a brief brush of contact with my ex recently.
Not the answer you were looking for perhaps.
Agreed. You need to have a clear idea of what you are expecting to get, and if it's unrealistic, I wouldn't do it. Trying to get closure, an apology, secretly hoping he'll come to his senses - way too early for any of that. You always have to ask yourself "will this get me closer to my goal?". In this case it's just likely to be perceived as more pursuing on your part.
If it was me, I'd cancel - "something came up".
I'm not expecting honesty at this point. I think for me it's that I'm worth the last 18 years of love and faithfulness for him to be present and in person tell me (even if it's lies) and that I'm not a nothing piece of crap that he can just send a text message to.
No I don't think he will come to his senses (not now and probably not ever). I think this would be the last piece of communication I will ever have with him that isn't strictly business or sorting out the assets.
Hi Equanimity,
I am sorry that you have found yourself here, but welcome, you are among some wonderful supportive people, I note that 3 are already posting to you, this is great.
Reading your opening post was like reading one of my own early posts, I found myself nodding along, I am so sad to know you are living this experience to.
So to your question re getting some answers from your h- I am in agreement with the others, I will be very surprised if you get anything truthful out of him, I am not going to use the word honest as to him it may actually be the honest truth ...in his head at this current time .. but tomorrow it could be something different. You won't (sorry if this stings) get the answers you are seeking from him, so if feel you have expectations of an apology or you don't think you can handle any negative feedback right now, then I would not ask the question, I advise staying away from poking that fire.
Your h will say some pretty harsh and unnecessary things to you right now, so until you can figure out how to ignore it I would keep contact to a minimum, saving your heart and sanity from taking a bashing.
Its time to take a step back and leave your h to run around like a crazy headless chicken seeking his head and start looking after yourself. Make sure you eat, sleep and exercise, try to do small things that will take your mind off the situation, even if it is just for a few minutes. I took on a college course, I passed it will flying colours, but honestly, looking back, I cant really remember doing it, let along retained any of the knowledge I learnt, but what I do know is that concentrating on that got me off thinking about my h and what he was up to with ow.
Your emotions are running high right now, so try not to make any important decisions other than securing yourself financially - MLC'er do tend to go off spending up to fund their search for happiness.
Hang in there, you are doing great, keep us updated with how your meeting goes if you decide to go.
Love n Hugs to you xoxo
Hi,
I did decide to go because my expectations were low.
What he did reveal what the relationship was over earlier than he admitted to himself or me.
He did not go further than a chat with anyone on tinder, but still chats someone.
The biggest revelation was that he is "Kinda seeing someone right now", that they have bene sexually intimate and it's someone I might know (which means I do- it's probably a staff member or a customer) and according to him he's known them for a long time (Like that makes it better).
He said that he became intimate with this person after he sent me the email saying it was officially over (which by my calculations was only 19 days ago). This means that he must have been communicating regularly with this person and seeing them while we were separated but supposedly trialing and working on us.
I sent him a text after the chat asking him to confirm when began regular contact with this person, and if he had gone out with them while we were separated (but still "together"), and if he approached them?
The answer I got for that was that it was private and he wasn't ready to divulge but that he'd never cheated on me (meaning never had sexual contact)- which means yes, yes and yes. He must have been communicating and seeing them, and as soon as he gave me the official email - hopped straight into the sack with them.
I don't know who it is, but I will find out at some stage. I'm fairly confident that it's a staffer or a customer but I could be wrong - it could be someone from his old work. Anyway if it's a staffer or customer then it pretty well decides for me whether I want to be part of the business still.
I knew it would be bad and yet still, I'm so upset and can't believe this man. I wanted it to works so bad and tried so hard but he just couldn't connect with me - AND he's left me here to look after the large property that HE wanted. I wanted to move, and he said he'd never leave. Now he's living closer to people/work/his new flame and I'm on a large property alone. And he's left me with heaps of debt from starting up the business and buying a car for it that I never wanted or needed.
I have no words..... I am crying non stop and want to die
tell me this gets better.
It is never easy to hear the words that pass over their lips. Andrew gave you some excellent advice...get tested for STD's. You cannot trust what he has told you and if he's been seeing others along the way, well...you know the drill. It's better to be safe than sorry.
I know the "need to know who it is" and it will be on your mind for a long time until you discover who it is...but I want to just say that whoever it is, they are just a band aid to his issues and if it weren't that particular person, it would be someone else. She's nothing special if she's fooling around w/a married man. You need to understand that you are a far better person than that woman because you aren't out there straying from your marriage. Hold your head up, back straight and know that you are the prize and shame on him if he can't see it.
Please check around your community, there may be a legal aid office that can provide you with some free advice or take some time and search the net for your particular area. You need to protect yourself and your assets. Don't be fooled into thinking that he's going to be good and kind to you and split things evenly because they usually don't. If anything, they want to leave you w/very little and you need to fight for what you are entitled to and that includes the business as well.
I would suggest that you have no more relationship talks w/him because if you do, you will continue to hear things that are harsh and may hurt you even more so. The best thing to do is focus on you and what you need to do to get through each day, one day at a time.
((Equanimity)) Sending you a giant hug. You've just been given a giant kick in the gut.
Remember though
- This is not about you, it's about him
- He'll make up whatever stories he can to make himself feel better about his choices
- There is no understanding the "why"
- Knowing the "what" will only cause more pain
- YOU HAVE VALUE
- YOU ARE IMPORTANT
Look yourself in the mirror.... I'll wait.... The woman you just looked at is one with compassion. One who cares. One who puts others before herself. Be proud of that woman.
He will make up stories. It's common if you read other stories here. He's not been happy for 1,5, 10 years, for ever. You have failings X,Y,Z. It's not his fault.
There are two key things you should be thinking of doing right now. The first is working on healing. If you have IRL friends who you can lean on, do so. I found for myself that it was surprising both who I thought I could count on, but wasn't there for me and the unexpected people who when I reached out my hand, lifted me up. If you have counseling resources available to you, seek them out. If they try to turn blame on you for the failure of the marriage, fire them and find a counselor that will lift you up instead of swat you down. The second thing is to prepare yourself for what will probably be a tough battle over the settlement. He will probably try to steam-roller over you and leave you high and dry. Don't allow yourself to be pressured into anything. Cadet writes that we are "given the gift of time" and that works in all sorts of ways. If you want an example of how "nice" can turn into "crazy" check out the more recent posts on HaWho's thread. Don't allow yourself to be pressured into anything you don't feel comfortable with.
Be kind to yourself. We're here for you if you need us.
Hi E
I am sorry you are here. Four and a half months ago I too was forced onto a path I did not choose to be on, or ever thought I would be travelling. My W abandoned me, her children, her home, her life and obtained a legal separation in two months.
I understand how you feel. Please know it does get better. You will get better.
You have received excellent advice from some very caring people with hard earned wisdom.
Good for you seeking legal counsel. Learn what you are entitled too, it is good to be prepared in case thing go sideways in a hurry. Remember to document things, the tinder email, conversations, etc...
As much as you can limit conversations with H, espically relationship ones. I know how difficult that is. I slipped up many times and all it brought was lies and pain.
It looks like you are reading lots. That’s good. I found so much comfort in reading and learning about MLC, I hope it helps for you too.
You are among friends here, people who truly know what you are going through. Reach out and post often. It really does help.
Thanks everyone.
Actually on further thought I realised who it was (not a staffer or customer), but someone much much closer in the family who he has had the opportunity to see a lot while living closer to his new work, step mum and half sister. It's his cousin (his step mum's neice).
I texted him I knew, and then the @sshole admitted it and then he threatened me. He said if I ever tell them that he will turn nasty! (This means making my life h@ll). He said he was entitled to his happiness and privacy - but the reality is it's because it's shameful.
He's been caught out leaving his wife (with debt, property to look after) and said he was just finding himself, was depressed and tired, only to cultivate a secret relationship with his step cousin (under his step mum's roof) the during our separation where he was still communicating with me and giving me hope, and then have sex with her as soon as sent me the email saying it was over. They (his step mum and half sister) love me because I've loved them and looked after them and we've gone on holidays etc. Their step son and half brother left to start a life with the niece/cousin they took in . The niece has been hiding it from them as well.
I would call in from time to time and visit them and even spoke to the niece and encouraged her about her new job. She knew me and that he's still technically married but pursued it. Shame on both of them!! No wonder he wants to hide it.
He said it's no-one's business and no-one needs to know. It's funny how he didn't use that logic when we separated or when it was over between us - he told everyone. But this - NO. He wants to reveal it in his own time so it looks like he wasn't having an affair or doing the dirty under everyone's nose. He doesn't want his step mum or half sister to get mad with him (or defend me for his being so bad to me) or kick her out or show their displeasure or cause any trouble for anyone. He wants to have their little nasty secret continue without difficulty until after some time they can present it as a sanctimonious union to the world. Not the duplicitous and illicit relationship that it was.
After 18 years of supporting him and then during the separation trusting him and missing him and working on myself to be better and working on thinking better of him and Divorce Busting the h@ll out of the situation both before and while he was gone (and not ruffling his feathers) I'm going to vent here in a way I've never ever done before, because I can.
He is a low life dog, scum of the earth, mongrel, b@stard, deceptive, lying, cheating, coward, weakling, duplicitous, horrible, mean, callous, cruel, thoughtless, selfish, world class @sshole.
There! That feels better.
And I still need to get out of the business because he's shown his hand - that he is a nasty, volatile and vindictive person who I couldn't trust ever again. To hope or not to hope? The answer is the man I loved and who I though was decent and who I gave the benefit of the doubt to is gone. He's so far gone he's a black hole of self denial and selfishness.
Ok, so now the horrible, horrible journey of games with the assets. I'm seeking legal council on Tues. I will speak to an emergency grants organisation (to hopefully give me some money while I have no income due to the bastard's dreadful decisions). I will have to get financial advice and I've sketched out a plan for how I may be able to keep the house. I will have to sell the car he signed us up for (another rash and stupid decision on his part) and get a cheaper one outright so I don't have to pay for the loan while I don't have a steady job.
What a cruel world.
On the positive side today my congregation noticed I was upset and gave me the BEST group hug ever.
Equanimity
As a gentle reminder, we have all walks of life that post here as well as lurkers. The DB Forums have some of the most wonderful people posting, but we do tend to sometimes get caught up in the moment and forget what we accepted in the "terms and conditions" for posting here.
One of the "terms and conditions" that is in the Policies thread that Cadet has posted is stated as: "Participants shall treat each other with respect, refraining from rudeness and foul language."
I realize that we all tend to forget that we aren't sitting around w/a group of friends just shooting the breeze and anything that we say is okay, however, we do need to be mindful of those who do come here to read our postings and sometimes the language can be offensive to others.
Oh my Job,
I'm so sorry. Nope. I wasn't thinking and I'm not thinking properly (I thought there were no official swear words so I was being tame, but I take your point). The hurt, pain and humiliation is so great after trying for so long.
Sorry to anyone here reading for my outburst and if I offended you. Forgive me please. I've never had an outburst like that before ever. I guess the pain is making me go crazy.
The deception and the way it has occurred is adding so much more to the pain because even after I found out about tinder, I still had a sliver of hope (you know that it was just a weak moment while we were separated) - but there is a whole other level of intent that had gone behind fostering this relationship.
I reiterate what I've said in that I'm really stressed about my future and what he will do, given that he's threatened me now.
I can't imagine anyone here on these boards who's M has recovered after such a turn? I mean I know Marriages can be saved from affairs and some come back from a MLC (that's why I started DB'ing over a year ago!), but when the spouse has lied so much and turns nasty and threatens the LBS?
Are there any experiences with this, or this threatening behaviour and how to negotiate this minefield?
Of course I want/wanted the M to work. I don't think there is any hope after him threatening me. It shows a deep level of love and protection for his new girl and relationship and a deep anger and hatred towards me. Has anyone ever come back from a spouse who had turned that much??
Normally I'm so passive and protective of him and would follow what he says and try and look at the positives in order to have hope that the R was still on track and right now that is the last thing I feel like doing and it feels like I will just get taken advantage of so he can continue to pursue his new relationship and allow himself to string me along or control the speed of the breakup and financial extrication.
I feel like my thoughts and emotions are spinning out of control here.
At this point do I just go dark and communicate by email? Do I initiate the financial extrication process and dividing assets? At this point I don't think I could trust him to do what he says and he's got the upper hand with the finances.
I'm conflicted. It feels that if I play nice that is more the DB style and the one recommended to save a M but that it will result in temporary placation, but ultimately he can't be trusted. Like the post said on WAS showing positive signs, I feel that if he settles down a bit it won't be remorse, it's will be self medication so he doesn't feel so bad about what he's done and that he's left me in the most horrible circumstances.
If I start the process of financial extrication then like the post said on WAS showing positive signs I'm giving him natural consequences for his behaviour which ultimately he might learn from because he can't control the speed of the finances consequences (although I'm the one who is going to be cut off) or the speed at which I now move on - but that doesn't seem very DB. If you know what I mean, that if the R were to ever recover that he needs to not have been pushed away.
I'm so confused.
Equanimity - I actually had a smile as I read your rant. It was healthy and probably good for you. Job is correct though - this is a public forum and we need to be moderate. If it's any consolation I believe that I am personally responsible for 3 of the permanent "sticky" posts reminding people about appropriate behaviour.
I just took a break from my ironing to let you know that what you are experiencing and feeling is sadly quite normal. A person like your spouse acts like a toddler right now. Me Me Me and yes, does go into a rage when you steal his blankie. He's angry because everything isn't going his way and you're not acting according to his script. He responds to this lack of control with anger and threats. He is also probably actively re-writing history to justify to his actions to himself and others.
Will he change? Only time will tell. But this level of anger is very likely temporary but may last until all the legal stuff is sorted out. Sadly, you will very likely have to go through the whole divorce thing. Will he turn back towards you when he inevitably finds out that everything isn't all rosy in Princess Fairy Land? There's no way of knowing.
My suggestion for you, for a variety of reasons, is to do your best to be the calm, rational person. There is nothing beyond some temporary satisfaction to be gained by upping the conflict level. For me, I did my best to be the calm rational one - or as I like to describe it, boring and reliable. I ended up getting a reasonable settlement I think in part because I didn't rock the boat. But that doesn't mean that you need to let him roll over you. I like to use imagery a lot. Imagine yourself as a rock. Solid, stationary, predictable and reliable. Let the waves break over you and do your best to be unmoved. As little contact as possible is your best action right now. Each contact gives him an opportunity to blame / rage and can cause you fresh hurt.
Perhaps in time, when he finds out that FairyLand promises are made of dust he will remember solid, reliable you. Perhaps that might happen in my own case. We are horrible at predicting the future and also pretty bad at remembering the past so we can't know.
Good luck and please be kind to yourself. You are doing the best you can in very difficult circumstances.
Back to my ironing now.
You needed to rant and throw your hands up because it is a very normal reaction to what you are dealing with. Trust me when I say that I was absolutely no saint when I discovered what my xh had done. Coming here to rant is the safest place because we all have and some are still going down the same path you are traveling.
We all have had our hands smacked here, whether it is because of a rude comment, profanity, sharing of personal address or trying to be sneaky and drop hints as to how to locate someone on the net...but the bottom line is that we have to be mindful of others and we all do understand where you are coming from. So, please don't give my little smack on the hand a second thought. We all slip up from time to time and that's called being human.
Your h is a 2 year old trying to teethe. He wants to stand and walk on his own, but wants mommy right there in his sight too. So, what do you do? Give him plenty of space to stumble and fall and learn right from wrong. While he's doing that...you take care of yourself.
As for changing or being a better person when the crisis is over? No one can answer that right now. It's too soon to tell and some come out okay and better people, others come out okay, but retain some of the traits they picked up along the way and others...well, let's just say...they are stuck and become angry and bitter people to the end of time.
Andrew has given you some solid advice. Be kind to yourself, give yourself permission to cry and rant all you want. Come here, to this safe place, to talk and rant away. People in the real world will not understand what you are experiencing because they haven't walked in your shoes. Gather all of the info you can on what you are entitled to and do not share any of this info w/him. This is your info to help you.
Above all else...BREATHE!
Hi everyone,
I'm still here and I feel even more broken.
I just don't want him to go. Even after everything. I just want him to work on the M with me.
He's offered my mum to pay for things for a while for me. He even had a tear in his eye.
Tell me - has anyone's relationship come back from this death after the WAS has broken up, slept with someone else, lied about it, lied to family, threated the LBS not to reveal anything, tell the LBS that it was over a long tme ago, there is no hope, he's the wrong person for me, there are too many scars, doesn't think I can change or get over things, protects they new love's identity and their privacy fiercely.
I know there is some guilt. Does that mean there is any connection left or just trying to appease his conscience so he can continue what he is doing?
It is so hard being alone here in the house in a rural area. Family is far away (and don't have room for me). I'm walking around the house screaming until I'm horse and punching furniture.
I have these tiny moments of hope where I hear people say here it's possible and I think of him having a tear in front of my mum and paradoxiacally asking "Is there anything I can do to make this easier on her?" (Which still means he's resolved to continue his path, but that he wants me to be ok). And his phone call to me after he broke it off but before I knew about HER where he said that he still cared for and worried about me.
So please, has anyone's relationship turned back from this far over the cliff?
I don't know whether to give up and go dark from now on (communicating only through email or a mediator), or pretending that I'm ok. I thought I could pretend I was ok today, but when I got rejected for a credit card application it through me into turmoil and I found myself reaching for him again (in private) and yelling NO.
He sounded so definite and convinced that he was making the right choice.
What do I do?
Thanks,
E
E,
My w has done many of the same horrible things your H has and more. Yes, the threatening was the worst. Protecting the OM’s feelings? Yes. Acting like she is the victim and I am the perpetrator? Yes.
What should you do? I think everyone here has been saying similar things. Take your eyes off him and work on you. He is clearly not ready to work on a relationship with you at present. Maybe in the future? Who knows. In the midst of my w’s wedding planning with OM2, I gave up and started pushing for the D...and then she unexpectedly, pulled back.
So some ideas for you. Maybe get a financial counselor. Learn more about personal finance. How can you become financially indepdendent. This is for you whether or not you D or R. What about a counselor or someone with whom you can process your anger? Yes, you are justifiably angry so you’ve gotta process that in a healthy way so it doesn’t eat you from the inside out. What about something social. You sound lonely and isolated. What can you do to force yourself into new relationships. Maybe you feel you are a hot mess and can’t mKe new friends right now. I understand. But the nice things about my new friends is that they don’t know me as half of a couple. I’m just Gordie with no history and drama. That’s nice too. How about those Oscars? They never ask about my situation because they know nothing of it.
Peace. One day at a time.
E, Gordie is spot on in what he is saying. What you H has said is textbook and you will see that when you read many of the situations here. Work on yourself. Detach. Get to a place where you are self sufficient. Read here and do your homework. Be the best person you can be for you and your family. You didn't break him and you cannot fix hin.
Stay strong and take it one day at a time.
It does get better. I remember in the first year I cried ever single day. I couldn't eat because it felt like I had a golf ball stuck in my throat and lost a over a stone in weight. I walked around wide eyed like a deer in headlights, I either couldn't sit still or I just lay on my bed like a lump. I barely existed.
I scrambled for every breadcrumb my H dropped for me until I realised he was only satisfying his needs and not mine or my daughters. Nearly two years later I'm certainly no way out of the woods as yet but I have come a long way. It does get better you won't always feel like this but you have to go through some very dark days to finally see some light. It won't be easy but all the lovely DB community will be there for you to pick you up. For that I am eternally grateful.
I don't post much anymore because my sitch has stalled a bit but I still read all the time. I have stopped finding excuses to contact my H and he is too much of a coward to contact me in case it gives me 'hope' so that's that. I think we are having a stand off to see who breaks first! But, I feel better when I don't have any contact. I still miss him but everytime I see him I spin a bit so I am happy to stay away.
You don't have to suddenly find lots of different activities but try to keep busy even if you just read a book. Try to focus on something to occupy your mind so you don't constantly think about him. At the moment he is not worth it! Also don't beat yourself up because you still love him and want him back. His feelings have changed doesn't mean yours have and just keep posting!
Hello E
You are getting awesome advice from everyone here.
You asked, What do I do?
Unfortunately financial stability is a large part of the situation the LBS finds themselves in. I am sure you have read how MLCrs can burn through money very quickly. Remember, YOUR financial stability is very important. That doesn’t mean you need to go and separate all assets and such, in some cases the LBS is better off leaving things the way they are. Seek advice, learn what your options are, and then do what you need to do to ensure that you can support yourself and you are protected, that will give you stability.
You have a great many things your dealing with and once your finances are in order that’s one less thing to stress and worry about. It felt terrible going through this with my W, but once it was done and the finances settled there was a lot less stress. It is then quite a bit easier to focus on yourself and your healing.
You said earlier that your H sounded so definite and convinced that he was making the right choice. Yes MLCrs do sound very convincing with all the rewrititen history and justification swirling around in their heads. They actually believe it. They are driven to believe it. From my viewpoint they will spend a great amount of energy and sacrifice much to ensure their fantasy stays intact.
My W’s version of reality is pretty skewed, but she absolutely believes it and protects it. I have watched my W turn on her kids, her friends, anyone who questioned her fantasy reality. It is irrational and there isn’t much one can do about it.
So, what do I do?
From all the posts and advice there are some very good things for you to do. Keep working on them and you will make progress. I did find it a bit overwhelming at the beginning when I had trouble just getting out of bed, but it turned out to be not that bad.
Equanimity I understand how broken you feel, I am only 5 months from BD and your pain, heartache, anger, and frustration reach right into me. I am literally only one week past some very very dark thoughts and those same intense feeling like yours. I didn’t think I’d ever find peace again.
So, from my viewpoint, what do I do? Do this - Believe.
You will get through this. You will get better. Believe me.
D
Thanks everyone.
I still don't know how to detach and I've been working hard on that since I picked up the Divorce Remedy in Oct 2016 and I just don't know how. I think I overly attach. (An insecure attachement disorder maybe from childhood?)
I go to church. I've been visiting and reaching out to old friends. I've visited different congregations. I've got a referal for counselling. I'm listening to pod casts, walking the dogs and meditating. I was taking myself to the movies and wrote a list of all the things I wanted to do in 2018. Remember I've been DB since Novemebr 2016 and doing 180's and trying to look after myself (When I'm bad, none of these things make a dint in the pain I feel, or being able to switch off or do things).
Things took a turn in the DB area after he yelled at me a few times and went out to breakfast with a female colleague. That's where I became pleasant and but not affectionate (I was really hurting from him being angry and threatening me and kinda closed down). We started DB telephone coaching and did a few sessions but when the business went downhill and he stopped counselling, hit a slump and went into deep depression and hid behind the computer. I was doing my very best to be mysterious and busy, but I think because I didn't pursue him for a long time and wasn't physically affectionate that he slumped further. (I guess it was either him hitting major MLC or that I didn't switch things up quickly enough when it was clear that it wasn't working and he was getting worse)
He initiated separation in Sept last year after I stumbled upon him at lunch with a female that he didn't invite me to. From that point I realy upped the 180 and positivity and getting on with things. He seemed responsive for about 2.5 months (he came up and helped me with house stuff, he asked me out to an anniversary dinner, he gave me a card, he rang and updated me on work things and what he was doing with himself, he bought presents in both our names for people). It was mid December when he started to sound more removed and saying things like "You will just have to call a tradesman" and just not being as warm, it was forced.
Mid December I was visiting his half sister/step mum and quite by co-incidence he pulled up and dropped OW/HER off and then he sped away. It was the first time I noticed this and thought it was really odd that he did that (and I was hurt he didn't come in to say hello). They told me she didn't have a car and he was taking her to work and picking her up. I remember feeling very concerned about it and the timing fits with when he began to pull away further. It was one of the clues as to how I knew it was her.
It was at the point in mid Dec 2017 that he started to pull away that internally I felt desperate. I kept a lid on it, but it built as I could feel he wasn't getting better, but rather worse. I wrote my list of things to do and learn in 2018 and recruited a bunch of friends to help me achieve them. Externally I did all the right things and even didn't contact him for a week at the suggestion of the DB phone coach, to see if there was still a connection. There was - he contacted me like 7 times that week. But then I got the Tinder subscription email and well that ended it all.
And then of course after seeing him last week and learning of her, it's been downhill since. I haven't been able to do much, but get financial and legal advice as well as try and get my work up and running inbetween being hysterical and catatonic.
Right now I'm communicating with him only via email for financial things. Some part of me says that if I don't talk to him and he doesn't see me being happy and successful, or keep in inmy life at all he will never feel he could come back. But the other part says he was determined the moment I found out about Tinder to cut it off and say he was moving on in his private life. He wanted so bad to start his new life with her -out with the old and in with the new, so what's the point in talking to him?
From what I know he was already moving on with her, he just didn't have the guts to tell me and used my finding out about Tinder as the excuse to break all ties.
Thanks again.
It's hard not to talk to heaps of family and friends. I want them to know so badly how duplicitous he's been and how hurt I am and yet so I get support and yet doing that means there would be zero chance of R.
E.