(((HaWho)))
I am so so SORRY to read of the latest developments in your sitch. Wow...truly bonkers!!!
Agree with all of the advice and golden nuggets proffered by the peanut gallery, I'd also like to offer my writing services to you that comes with a strong drink for you to tide you through this mess!
Below is a suggested draft email to H...please feel free to change it up as you see fit to suit your own style and preferences. You can use this or throw all of it away. Won't bother me one jot.
Mr. Loco,
I wanted to take a moment to collect my thoughts and get back to you.
First of all, I recognize that the marriage has not been working well for some time which greatly saddens me. As you can see, it is not that simple nor is it easy to dissolve a long-term marriage such as ours. When one takes into the consideration the division of assets we have accumulated over the years and the breakdown of the family unit, it is within my legal rights to retain my own attorney to advise and assist me in navigating through such a complex process.
From this point and on, it would be helpful that all matters related to the dissolution of the marriage are to be communicated through our own respective attorneys. This means that all communications related to the divorce proceedings, division of assets, and other relevant matters are to be handled strictly through our lawyers. This is the best course of action given the highly emotional nature of this process and I am going to insist that you respect my decision and my choice to retain my own lawyer. I know you feel differently and I respect that.
As for our children, I believe it is important that we continue in our parenting role as we have been doing over the last several months and I wanted to check in with you to keep our lines of communication open on this front as Mom and Dad. It is important that the kids have both of us involved in their lives as co-parents. I know that we both want to be there for them as you know that they are our greatest blessings.
Thanks for your understanding during a challenging time as this is obviously a new territory for all of us in the family which cannot be easy at all.
Take care,
HaWho
HaWho,
Listen my friend...I am going to give you the most important advice that I want you to remember by here as you move on to the next juncture in your journey. I am passing on some hard-earned wisdom that's directly borne from my own personal experiences.
The person who is calm, centered, and grounded ALWAYS has a leverage over the nutty ones. Whenever there's a battle to be fought (or 'discussion'), it helps to do breathing exercises (Tia Chi is one good example) to ground yourself and then take on whatever needs to be done.
Whatever you do, do NOT get into arguments with H. I know you know this, but bears repeating to emphasize it here.
You got this, girl....and how you cannot with this fabulous team on/at your side?!!
Chin up, HaWho.
OMG - started crying when I saw the reach out Wonka. And so happy that I did not have to take the time to start a thread right now and pick a name and all that. Thank you. And thank you Ownit, Job, Ginger, KML, Andrew and anyone else I just missed for the advice from my last thread. Cannot tell you how thankful I am for the support.
Wonka - I am going to write it to him exactly as you've written it once I obtain a lawyer. I know this will be ugly. Today when I asked the accountant for the older returns h sent me a text merely saying that he approved the accountant giving them to me. See that? The control there? As though I have no right to returns I signed on? That is what this whole process will be. And because he has zero common sense right now he thinks his way is the sane way.
Then he emailed me saying this accountant knows his dad and now his family probably knows and his mom is old so it's not good for her to know yet. And there comes the guilt. So his accountant gossips with family members? Lots of control issues coming out. Even weirder? He's worried about his mom but think this will not affect his kids? Sure.
I merely said that yes I wanted copies and cannot access those as they are locked in his room. He said "you just need to ask me and I can help." Bizarre given the angry rant he wrote me hours earlier where he said I would be zero to him if I did not respond by 9PM. And yeah, don't think I'll be emailing you my playbook.
Job, as for h's lawyer, h wanted me to go there and get the papers myself. I asked him to mail them via certified mail because I did not want to meet his lawyer at all. A) lawyer (rightfully) probably does think I'm a moron as who would marry someone who wrote that gibberish legalese? And B) I was worried he'd try to probe me on my thought process and then report back to h.
So now they are being mailed. Nice and simple.
And yes, Job, I do want to ask him what the big rush is. Initially he said he couldn't take one more second in that room.
As I have said, I am ready to part ways. Mostly I feel like I am sneaking out a window from some crazy person's dungeon. But, boy oh boy, am I so heart broken for my kids. The idea of seeing them 50% of the time makes me hurt. The idea of their worlds being shattered is tough. I hope KML is right and maybe it will be easier than I think. Like Ownit said, the stronger I am the better they'll be.
Thank you all. Special thanks to Wonka for the ready made letter. The only change I'll make? Instead of addressing him as "Mr. Loco," I may go with "Mr. Bean." Man, that letter he wrote was something else.
HaWho - you have been at this a long time, but now you're in a new and very heightened phase. Do your very best not to think ahead further than one week. Do your very best to take care of yourself physically, mentally and spiritually.
Take as much time as necessary to figure out what you want. You cannot negotiate anything unless you know what you want.
You may want to consider setting up counseling for the kids. It's the one thing I wish I'd insisted upon, and held up everything to get exh's cooperation on it.
When you don't know what to do, do nothing.
Keep an exercise program and basic daily routine for yourself.
We are here for you honey. You got this xoxoxo
Winks - you're a great writer but I have to disagree. I think the best tactic AT THIS MO
Wow, great advice Bttrfly. And thanks for recommending the forensic accountant. I am going to talk to the lawyer about that.
And yes, h will never agree to counseling for the kids but I like the idea of writing it in and negotiating that into the deal.
Thank you.
Hiya, Ellie!
Winks - you're a great writer but I have to disagree. I think the best tactic AT THIS MO
Then show me. What are you thinking? What is this "best tactic" are you referring to here? Maybe I missed it somewhere...
xx
Sorry Wonka, that wasn't finished!
You're a great writer but I think TACTICALLY, the best approach in this situation is emotional aikido. Make him think she is going along with things, isn't stalling but just wants to make sure the paperwork will hold water. THEN once she has response from her lawyers to give him she can refer him to her lawyer as needed. But playing along with him for present, making him think she's going along with things is likely to cause less resistance. (Guys like this often are unreasonably worried they'll be "taken to the cleaners" and of course, want the "zipless divorce a la Erica Jong's Fear of Flying).
Reality will hit soon enough. No need to stir him up yet.
Ellie,
The way I see it, the letter accomplishes several goals in one fell swoop:
-H needs to calm the f*ck down!
-H needs to realize that HaWho is no pushover
-H needs to recognize that HaWho is entitled to her own lawyer
-H needs to be slapped into reality that there are kids involved--aka get his head out from his own a@@--no telling which 'head' we're talking about here- (from what I've read so far, H has a tunnel vision on HaWho in all of his communications with her...with nary a peep of concern for the kids)
-and put the brakes on this crazy-moving train a bit
I am thinking that you may have some other angle that we hadn't thought about there and I'd love to hear it, Ellie.
If you end up in a litigated situation, I don't think there is a court in the land that would oppose counseling for the kids. But as bttrfly put on her thread, don't push it. I've had S in counseling for years, but only now, at 14, when he sought out the male counselor in his school, is he finally making progress and getting thinky. I think he just entertained the others.
Do as bttrfly says and try not to think too far out. I've changed my mind so many times about what I want and I still haven't seen those divorce papers (or even his first revision to the separation contract he has had for a year).
I wouldn't bother asking what the need for speed is. He is just going to lie anyway. I'd just be calm, take it at your speed, and keep reminding him it's a big deal and he has had lots of time to process this and get ready and you have not.
Still keep those expectations at low, and don't let this development take over your life. Things are never as swift or problem-free as we want them to be and you need the stamina to get through this and your kids need a sane mom.
Will he exercise 50/50 custody? Remains to be seen. What you think you want, how you deal with it, and whether you carry it out are all unknowns until you are in the situation.
I'd focus on no 3rd party introductions until 6 mos after the divorce is final.
Ellie,
We cross-posted...
[quote=You're a great writer but I think TACTICALLY, the best approach in this situation is emotional aikido. Make him think she is going along with things, isn't stalling but just wants to make sure the paperwork will hold water. THEN once she has response from her lawyers to give him she can refer him to her lawyer as needed. But playing along with him for present, making him think she's going along with things is likely to cause less resistance. (Guys like this often are unreasonably worried they'll be "taken to the cleaners" and of course, want the "zipless divorce a la Erica Jong's Fear of Flying).
Reality will hit soon enough. No need to stir him up yet./quote]
You bring up some excellent points, Ellie. I do get what you mean by using the strategy of emotional aikido in this particular time. The one thing that really bothers me is that HaWho is still enaaging in those details with H...I'd rather leave it to the pros. In my case, it was a Godsend to have that buffer between me and Ms. Wonka when we negotiated the sale of the house etc.
I still need think it is critical that HaWho tell H that she is within her rights to have her own lawyer...that is a firm line in the sand! Non-negotiable.
Sorry Wonka, that wasn't finished!
You're a great writer but I think TACTICALLY, the best approach in this situation is emotional aikido. Make him think she is going along with things, isn't stalling but just wants to make sure the paperwork will hold water. THEN once she has response from her lawyers to give him she can refer him to her lawyer as needed. But playing along with him for present, making him think she's going along with things is likely to cause less resistance. (Guys like this often are unreasonably worried they'll be "taken to the cleaners" and of course, want the "zipless divorce a la Erica Jong's Fear of Flying).
Reality will hit soon enough. No need to stir him up yet.
Then again, H has been irrational and how can one deal with him rationally and/or logically knowing he'll just go nuts all over again over some perceived slight or omission (or the fact that HaWho decided to wear a pink scarf to work!) Look at the most recent request for financials from the accountant...how did that go down with H??!!
He is untrustworthy and I wouldn't want to put up with the pretense of engaging in an emotional aikido. Just send him that darn letter and let HIM deal with his own emotions. It is all on him. He is as crazy as crazy does.
I too would like to see HaWho leave it to the pros. I told my H from day one, and this is something his crazy head has held onto, he will not talk to me directly once the lawyers are involved. Your brain tells you it adds to the cost, but trust me, keeping the emotions out of this as much as possible and filtering all the communications through the lawyer (of course his lawyer already scares me) can help that happen.
Good luck getting a high valuation on the jewelry. It will likely come down to the cost of the raw materials. What is the price of gold, etc. at the moment. Gifts are gifts. Unless you acknowledged in some writing that the the money was separate property and the property remained separate, I don't see that flying.
If the estate isn't huge, it may not be worth the cost of the forensic accountant. I had a very tight leash monetarily on my H until he moved out, and I have seen his tax statements for last year and he is in the same job, so I have a pretty good handle on that stuff. Forensic accountants can be expensive and even getting to that information can be a bear. He will not likely turn it over voluntarily and you will have to go to third parties with a subpoena during discovery and that gets expensive. Even 25, a lawyer, has not been able to get this kind of info out of her H.
Think about what means the most to you. The beauty of a mediated resolution is that it can take you places a court would not. If money is not as important to you as time with your kids and you are confident of your ability to support them and yourself on what you are likely to get, you may be willing to trade off some time for money. Again, that is an example and you have to think about the things that matter to you.
So glad to see everyone weighing in for you here. It is a measure of the high regard that we all have for you.
Definitely do not discuss the terms, negotiate with him or agree to anything. I'm just suggesting that the first move does not need to be confrontational, but just presented as a win for BOTH by making sure the documents will be valid - THEN once she has a good idea from her own attorney what she can expect from the courts, her lawyer can negotiate for her.
OMG - started crying when I saw the reach out Wonka.
Thank you all. Special thanks to Wonka for the ready made letter. The only change I'll make? Instead of addressing him as "Mr. Loco," I may go with "Mr. Bean." Man, that letter he wrote was something else.
You got it!! This is what friends are for, right?!
xoxo
Might want sleep on this for a while....tomorrow will bring some more clarity after you've heard back from your new lawyer. Then maybe you can decide to send out the email to H or not.
I think we all agree it looks like this:
1. defuse his drama (with Wonka's letter);
2. visit several lawyers and hire the one you like;
3. develop a plan for HaWho and boys;
4. calmy, but relatively quickly, get it resolved.
BTW HaWho, don't be surprised if he suddenly slows things down after you express your interest in getting it done.
1) Like a game of tug of war, when you drop the rope, he might just fall over.
2) WASs want the "zipless divorce", they're notoriously bad at filling out paperwork like asset disclosure forms etc.
As for a forensic accountant - only if you think a very large amount is to be found. You can simply subpoena all bank accounts and other financial accounts in his name, so unless he owns his own business or has gold bars hidden in his room, a forensic accountant may not be needed.
Ellie,
After reading your comments about "BOTH" winning...I am going to revise the letter a bit. Changes are highlighted in bold.
REVISED DRAFT #2
Mr. Loco,
I wanted to take a moment to collect my thoughts and get back to you.
First of all, I recognize that the marriage has not been working well for some time which greatly saddens me. As you can see, it is not that simple nor is it easy to dissolve a long-term marriage such as ours. When one takes into the consideration the division of assets we have accumulated over the years and the breakdown of the family unit, I have retained the services of my own attorney to advise and assist me in navigating through such a complex process.
From this point and on, it would be helpful that all matters related to the dissolution of the marriage are to be communicated through our own respective attorneys. In this way, the lawyers can collaborate to ensure a mutually satisfactory agreement that benefits everyone within reason. This means that all communications related to the divorce proceedings, division of assets, and other relevant matters are to be handled strictly through our lawyers. This is the best course of action given the highly emotional nature of this process. I know you feel differently and I respect that.
Here is the contact information for my new attorney: XXXX
As for our children, I believe it is important that we continue in our parenting role as we have been doing over the last several months and I wanted to check in with you to keep our lines of communication open on this front as Mom and Dad. It is important that the kids have both of us involved in their lives as co-parents. I know that we both want to be there for them as you know that they are our greatest blessings.
Thanks for your understanding during a challenging time as this is obviously a new territory for all of us in the family which cannot be easy at all.
Take care,
HaWho
H,
I want to pay forward some advice here on custody. You are heart broken over losing boys 50% of the time. Well, I think you can get more if you want it.
Stbx initially said because she was a SAHM she would exercise her right to almost all custody. I would get every other weekend. In my panic and depression, I thought this was the law and my lot in life. Then I met my L and started to wake up and got 2x4s here not to accept her proposal. I decided this was the only thing that mattered and told stbx that. I traded off $$$ for time with the kids. I got 50/50...and then I pushed for more. I now get 50/50 overnights plus the right but not obligation to daily time either in the morning or evening when they are with her. I think she sees this as free babysitting...and I got it. So don’t despair. Figure out what you want, how important it is to you, and use your L to negotiate.
The letter is too long. My lawyer, and everything else I've ever read, says keep it short and direct. About three sentences. These MLCers can't handle more.
He just needs to get that she needs time, this is important, and she is going to talk to a lawyer and go from there.
You can't one stop shop this stuff.
short, simple. he's not going to read anything past the line where it says you have your own lawyer.
Oh my goodness - thank you all so much. You guys are so very amazing.
In his self drafted "document" h proposed an initial breakdown of assets when it comes to personal stuff. I just need to think about all that. He seems to be leaving most of the stuff and just wants out. We'll see.
One interesting thing he stated is that if either of us "cohabitates with someone all support stops immediately." He is very bothered by the idea of men around his kids as his mom brought in all sorts of nut job boyfriends. Just interesting that he thinks he can control this aspect.
KML - to answer your previous questions, for assets he knows we split those 50%. And all money coming in will be 50/50. He makes significantly more than I do. I was a stay at home mom for a long while so I want to talk to someone about that. We have very little debt. My concern is that I do think h has been squirreling money away. I do think he has gold hidden in that room. How much? I can't say. Is it worth going after? Not really sure as it's costly to do. I want to ask the lawyer if there is an easy way to see if he purchased more gold than he claims? But I bet he sold most of it and hid the cash. Probably he even steered clear of a security deposit box. But I think whatever is there will be hidden in his room. And I can spend all day long searching for it only for h to lie and say he already "spent it." Again, something to talk with the lawyers about.
It may be more worthwhile to make a claim for lost wages/retirement for being a longtime stay at home mom. Need a lawyer's advice here.
He does have a very good life insurance policy. He proposed I pay 1/3 of it and keep 1/3 if ever the time comes to collect. I assume the other 2/3 are for the kids. But, my sense is I'd need to take it all on to make sure he stays up to date on payments. Need to talk to the lawyers about all this.
If I receive 50% of the income I will be in good shape. And finally, I can control the saving/spending. I am not a big spender and this part of the divorce makes me happy as it gives me full control of my finances again. I will be able to make up for lots of lost time worked if I can have full control of my 50%. H of course has been buying all sorts of stupid stuff to make himself happy.
Ginger - he has already proposed that we go to the banks and divide everything 50/50. I am going to ask that we do this today. This too will give me some measure of peace of mind.
As for how this all impacts he kids, each time stress builds here I remind myself I cannot control this; I can only respond.
I am very scared of the cost of enlisting a "good lawyer." I hate no idea this sort of thing costs. I want it to go fast as h is hungry for it and wants to close it out ASAP. My sister keeps reinforcing that it's very worthwhile to pay a decent lawyer and that this is not a place to skimp. But I have zero idea what this costs. Guess I'll have some estimates soon.
Thank you all so very much.
I like seeing the repeated usage of this. One thing that I'm a great believer in is never thinking that I'm the smartest guy in the room.
It's good in some ways that he's willing to do the division of the funds right now. Just make sure that you don't sign anything that identifies this as the final disposition. Keep all your options open until the final complete deal is decided.
As you probably know by seeing our other stories, pretty much everything is negotiable, but the general guidelines here and I believe there are 50/50. So the fact that he's wanting to abandon property means that what he leaves behind gets taken out of your share.
The legal spend is a thing. When I first met with my lawyer I said that I wanted to cap the spend at $4,500. I'm currently at about $7,000 and my case is a lot more simple than your's but almost done (one last filing to be done). Remember that each and every interaction with your lawyer or their office will cost you. They will expect a retainer up front (mine was $2,000) and you'll need to keep that topped up. Check with your bank and perhaps family to see what sort of funds you can draw on. I was glad that I did. Part of keeping the legal spend down for me was to avoid doing what I called "looking for nickels in the couch cushions". Decide what hill you are willing to defend but also have an idea on what you are willing to spend to do that. There's no sense spending $500 in legal fees over a $20 frying pan.
For the lawyers, they see this all the time and it's a fill-in-the-forms sort of thing. So many of them - including mine and my STBX's are not very creative unless you push them. I did have to have a "come to Jesus" moment with mine where I pointed out very plainly that I was unhappy with the lack of attention that my case was getting specifically the lack of preparation that she was doing pre-meeting. Don't allow yourself to be railroaded and don't sign anything that you don't fully understand. What helped me too was the lawyers were going through their checklists and wanted me to sign off on the equity split on the house before we moved on to other things. I stopped them and said that I didn't want to approach things piecemeal and negotiated a transfer of equity plus support deal that was all inclusive. My deal has basically two lines. I gave her a fair amount of money out of the house which I added to the mortgage and I give her a monthly payment. ALL other items were deemed to be resolved without bothering to identify them. By stating ALL, that makes it tough for either of us to go back and open things up. Each clause is a crack.
Good luck - hope that helps.
I fully agree with the short and simple. He is not capable of taking in anything wordy at all. He needs small, succinct sentences, and without emotion.
Get a recommendation about a lawyer. Have your seen one in the past to protect yourself through his coming and goings and crazy MLC antics?
The fact he wants this done FAST, puts the ball in YOUR court. You can call the shots here and I know you won't go for anything more or less than fair. So, please understand, you have the power in this right now.
Understand that good doesn't necessarily mean expensive. Echoing Ginger - get recommendations. You want a lawyer that will handle things, not stir $h!t up out of nowhere to increase their fee.
Your sister is right - don't skimp on the lawyer. You're husband's sneakiness makes a forensic accountant a reasonable option - esp. since he's been buying gold and hording it like Rumplestiltskin in the dorm room. BTW in Mass. if the partner receiving alimony lives with another person/romantic partner the alimony stops, so he's not making that up out of whole cloth.
xoxoxo
Wonka,
Welcome back! I am very happy to see that you returned to provide support and guidance to HaWho.
I tend to agree that anything you put in writing should remain short, simple and very plain language. He will stop reading when he sees that you state everything should go through the lawyers or you are having a lawyer do this or that.
He's got some real control issues going on and he's trying to control everything right down to the person you need to get info from. Furthermore, if the accountant starting talking to his family about the situation, etc., that would sound like an ethical issues as anything that is discussed or request of him should be kept confidential. I suspect that your h just threw that in hoping to deter you from getting the info you require.
HaWho, you have more control over this situation than you think. He's scrambling to have control and wants you to think that he knows anything and everything and yes, he wants to come off as the good guy in giving you this or that...don't be fooled by his promises because all of that may change the longer this goes on. Any leads on a lawyer?
Once you get the accounts taken care of today and you've posted a text to him about things, try to refrain from having any more discussions w/him about the divorce or dividing assets. The time for those discussions will be after you have retained a lawyer and gotten good legal advice.
This is now a business deal and you need to try to treat it as such. Your partner wants out, so you need to look at him as a business partner. I know you are going through some emotional ups and downs, but you will need to stay as calm as you can. He will use threats, be nice one time and nasty the next if he doesn't get what he wants...but whatever you do, stay calm, count to ten, do not react to his antics and the one thing that you need to do often is breathe!
Stay the course...we are here for you. Continue to ask questions and be sure to make a list of questions for your lawyer.
HaWho,
I just caught up on what's happened. I'm so sorry to hear of this turn of events. Our situations are so similar...I just was, unlike you, unaware of the MLC while my XH was in house.
The advice you are getting is great. I thought my XH was actually trying to be kind and generous, and even felt sorry for his pain as we went through the D. However, there were some surprisingly callous moments then and even a bit now that have surprised me. Its hard to reconcile who they either have become or who they are revealing themselves to be. Be very careful and do treat this as a business deal. His feelings in this are his own and should not be taken into account at this time. Business, pure and simple. What is best for you and your ability to parent successfully. And yes, that might include agreements on family or individual therapy.
I can't even come close to the all-star advice you are getting, but I'm here for support. This will soon pass...you will be able to breath again. Hug the kiddos, keep busy, eat well, sleep well, and make time for vigorous excercise and talks with friends. You know the drill.
Take care of you and yours and leave him to stew and bake in his own kitchen. Yours is now closed to him. Allow him the pleasure of smelling what's cooking and drooling outside now.
HaWho, I have just caught up too. I am sorry it has come to this but I am sure you will find the strength and courage to navigate through the process and maybe find some relief in H being out of the house.
Hugs (((HaWho))).
Thank you all so much for the outpouring of support. I am so fortunate to have found this place.
H is starting up again. Papers are supposed to arrive today. He sent an email saying we need to agree to assets this weekend. I am not going to be ready for that as I am screening lawyers yet. Called one that was highly recommended yesterday. Just called again. Have a voicemail into one I researched but know nothing of other than her reviews are good. Waiting on name of third lawyer from friend who returns Friday. I don't think this happens overnight.
There is no way I'll be ready to agree to assets this weekend. And I assume he can't force me to do it like that. I know he does not want me to see a lawyer.
He wants to tell the kids on Jan 27 and move out the 30th.
He is on fire. And he's had so much time. And I know in his mind, he is so crazy that he thinks by talking to my own lawyer it's hostile. And he's said he'll change tactics if I become "hostile" which I know means by obtaining my own lawyer.
I am sure he obtained his lawyer ASAP as the guy sounds like Better Call Saul.
I am going to have to tell him I am not ready. I don't think I'll even have a lawyer before the weekend. He can go without me agreeing to all this at lightening speed.
He is squeezing me and I know I don't have to do this on his timeframe. But as soon as I let the cat out of the bag he'll come a blazin' and if I don't even have a lawyer yet?
I don't know how much to divulge at this time as I still have no info.
Hold firm.
You haven't even been served. Depending on your jurisdiction, you will be given 20 or more days to file an answer. Even then, in the early stages of a lawsuit, it is customary to get a time extension.
If he wants to move that quickly, and he is causing so much drama, why not ask him to go somewhere else until his apartment becomes available (presumably why he wants to move on the 30th?).
Why not suggest you guys tell the kids now. Then he doesn't have that as a threat over your head and he has to begin dealing with the consequences of his action, something these folks don't like.
When I did extensive research on the topic, most things I read said tell the kids a while before the move out to give them time to adjust. He's down in the basement anyway.
Maybe telling the kids and suggesting he go ahead and move will be enough to target his energy in a different direction. It will at least show him that you are not trying to hold on and are taking steps to get him out.
He's just going to continue to badger you otherwise.
Thanks Ownit. I am supposed to be served today.
I want to wait to tell the kids because s14 has exams for high school. They matter and his classes are the real deal at a serious high school.
He has the apartment but I assume no bed yet.
He is all over this. And I am working between stalling for son and a maniac. I will call s14's school and delay exams if he bombs him inappropriately.
Don't forget that if it gets ugly for your S, and he is seeing a counselor and dealing with depression (which I get the idea manifests in not doing and/or turning in work), then quickly look into getting a 504 plan/IEP in place which can give him extra time to complete work, tests, etc. until things calm down. As he moves through high school and things stabilize, you can remove it.
HaWho, I’m so sorry it came to this… I agree with others, it is probably time go get things moving, one way or another. It sounds like you are handling it pretty well. I completely understand your hesitation regarding the lawyers. It took me some time before I was ready to make the appointments and interview a few. I was not rushed thought, as H was not pushing for anything. It looks like you have no choice.
A lot of lawyers do first free consultations. I can schedule a few of those before you make you final choice. I think you are in the same state as I am. One of the law firms I went to was in downtown. They gave me a lot of important information. They also told me that by making an appointment with them, I was making it an official record (they put my visit in their system), and by the state law this date could be considered a date of separation. This means that any debt and earnings made by me or H would not be considered common property. So, I would advise you to keep all the records of your consultations.
They also told me that not all lawyers do litigation, if it comes to it. They said that they had a great success in litigation. This is something to consider when you select a lawyer.
I think it is a great plan to call S14th school in case H delivers his “surprise” before the final exams. I think your H know that you would be concerned about your son’s exams, and this is why is bullying you. Please don’t give up, don’t rush with any decisions. Your son will recover; he will be able to catch up. Your finances are very important right now, and your son will benefit from a good decision you make.
You’ve got a lot of great advice here. Hang in there… Sending you lots of love!
Wonka,
Welcome back! I am very happy to see that you returned to provide support and guidance to HaWho.
Great to see you back Ms Wonka, hope all is well with you!
HaWho,
Your situation breaks my heart a lot, because I feel like your H's dorm and my H's basement bedroom have been similar situations. It also sounds like you are ready.
After a period of relative calm and your unending sense of humor at your H's antics, it must feel so awful to have this maniac phase oh sudden EMERGENCY. But, it's his emergency and not yours, as much as he is going to try to make it yours. This may be the most important business decision of your life, so don't let him rush you and, if possible, use his eagerness to get a large portion of a settlement.
My H dropped the bomb on me on a Friday and thought we could settle everything by Sunday. He kept pressuring me. The "go through lawyers" line got a lot of pushback initially, but I just held to it and kept refusing to discuss it and would leave the room whenever someone brought it up. I eventually threatened to document further boundary violations as harassment. I think you could definitely use the line "in order to keep the emotional tension low for the sake of our children, I would like to continue these conversations through lawyers."
I am, again, so sorry that it's come to this, but I do hope that window you're escaping through gets bigger and becomes soothing.
Thank you Bright, Ownit and Survive. Such good info. Bright much thanks on asking if lawyers litigate; many do not I have learned.
Spent the morning talking to lawyers on consults and I feel better. I understand the process now and my rights for the next few steps. I understand that I have 30 days to sign the petition. And although he is telling me we have to agree on division of assets this weekend, that is far from true. We have to go through a period of discovery. It is a process and not an overnight one.
Read the papers and h claims we separated 3/15. That is when he moved downstairs but that summer he took us all away for my birthday, bought me roses, we slept in the same bed and then he moved back into the MBR until October 15. Not sure it matters as it seems in my state things hinge on the 10 year mark and we are all past that. Wonder why he wrote it? Did he forget or is he angling. I'll know soon enough.
Today there was an email from him asking me to let him know if I was signing today or not. He will do this to me every day of this process, I realize. As Survive says, it's his maniac emergency, not mine. I hear Wonka: stay calm and don't engage. I do not think it will be possible to work with his energy as KML advises because he is too irrational. If I don't agree to asset division right there on the spot without a lawyer, then he spews. There is no making him happy except to agree with his horrible logic. I know now that he is looking to justify just as he did in the early days. Your eggs are overlooked I am out of here! You won't sign the petition the second it comes? You are hostile and dead to me.
Woke up this morning after my 4th day of running a massive sleep deficit. First thought was: I've been here before, I did it once and I'll do it again. Then I will be done. This is just like the days after BD1 was he was frenetic, everything was an emergency; he was living a pell mell existence. And I tried to appease because I was too enmeshed to see how crazy it all was. But this time I see it's nuts. And I am going to center myself for this last and final storm.
Have a consult tomorrow with the lawyer my friend recommended. Pretty sure he'll be my guy based on her experience and his reviews.
Sounds good. Yes, but discovery is expensive. In my typical case (not family law), the suit costs about 1 million per side and discovery is probably 50% of that. Lots of motions as well.
Make sure the attorney is grounded and realistic with your goals and a budget. Make sure it is someone that won't encourage you to fight every battle, and instead focus your time, energy, and money on the ones that matter.
I think you need to make the decision to tell him off once and for all (hey bud, everything is going through the lawyers, don't talk to me about this again), or simply ignore every, single thing he does.
If you answer sometimes, it will just keep it raging.
Yes, we all remember the early BD days when they are excited about the "freedom" and having things in the open. And then, as Job reminds us again and again, six months later reality sets in. That is going to be MAJOR for your wallower.
I wouldn't agree to his separation date. There must be a reason, even if it is his psychological justification for his actions. Make sure to discuss it with your attorney, but I think the HaWho I read about was working on this marriage up until last week and rightfully claim she thought they were in a reconciliation period.
Does the separation date affect alimony in your state? I know that it took two years for my ex and I to finalize our divorce after he moved out - but the length of the marriage for alimony purposes was based on the separation date. I think you can effectively argue that date. Otherwise if you live in a state where you have to be separated for a year before you can finalize the divorce, you may not want to debate that point as it would keep you tied to him too. Good thing to discuss with your lawyer.
I recall during my settlement talks that they looked mainly at the financial separation date for assessing property division. That is, the date at which we no longer had comingled finances.
Under the grounds for divorce here, it requires a "separation for the purposes of ending the marriage" and allows trial reconciliations of up to 90 days that don't reset the date.
It grazes the edge of perjury but I was certainly open to picking whatever date she wanted including all the way back to BD. It wasn't necessary though because things dragged out. But again - my ex hasn't seemed to be in a hurry about anything.
you sound much better, more grounded and that's good. Don't let him wear you down! This is a war.
xoxoxo
HaWho,
I would certainly correct the separation date, whether it matters or not. You do not want data that is incorrect on the record.
Just a little side note of what went down w/my xh...he had the incorrect date of separation, as well as couldn't remember our address. I had my lawyer correct the info so that the record was correct. I don't think they can actually think in near term, pretty much like dementia patients at this point in time.
Good luck today. Once you retain a lawyer, you can most certainly advise him in a very calm manner that anything he needs to address w/you regarding the papers, can be addressed through the lawyers. Then end the conversation. The badgering will continue as he is acting out and he thinks that if he continues to badger you, both being nice and then nasty, you will cave and say "enough" and sign and/or agree to whatever he puts in front of you. Stand firm, remain calm and breathe! You've got this.
HaWho,
You have gotten a lot of great advice so far from others much more experienced than me, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in as well.
I think sometimes the fear of the unknown is much much greater than anything in reality. I hope you have seen the divorce complaint by now. I was dreading the day mine arrived in the mail, but honestly once I opened it and read it I was filled with a sense of relief. Like your H, mine was really out there when he filed and the complaint was full of errors even though it was prepared by a pretty competent lawyer. It was obvious my H had not read it and simply signed. Seeing this legal document I was so fearful of receiving so error-filled actually made me laugh and reminded me again my H was not in his right mind.
I'll reiterate again to make sure to take your time. Figure out what you want and go for that. I was fortunate that my H and I made about equivalent salaries. I've always worked and I was in charge of the finances, so I had a head start there. Custody was/still is our big battle and to me I was willing to give up money/child support to have more time with mine.
I see everyone's point about striking early while the WS is anxious to get out, but in my case it worked out in my favor to take a little longer. With time my H got a little less "crazy" and had I agreed to the initial proposal early on I would have ended up with much less. Many people IRL suggested I just settle, but in my gut I knew I needed to keep pushing. I am glad I did.
You know your H and your situation the best, so just keep listening to your inner voice. You have already shown an abundance of patience to last this long with your H, dig deep for just a little more so you can get what you want/need.
HaWho, I am sure the lawyer you choose will give the correct info about the separation date. I don’t think it could be any date for your H to declare. It has to have some legal weight. I’m almost 100% positive that it will be the date your H took an action, either consulting with the lawyer or filing for the D, not the date he had in his sick head. I believe there are some provisions in our state about the benefits you get after certain number of years, and I believe it is at least 10 years.
Your situation is different from others. I agree with advice to get what you can right of the bet, while your H feels an urgency to get out and also feels some guilt. I think I did a smart move when my H said that he didn’t want the house and could have it, so I refied to my name and he singed a paper giving the house to me. I think later (in a year or two) he regretted it, but… it was too late  , I have the house now. It could be different with your H, since he’s been brewing slowly in his dorm room… If you can get the best deal for you, go for it. If not, you could wait. It will cost you more money for the lawyer, but if it would have a better financial outcome for you, it would be worth it.
Hi HaWho,
I am so sad and shocked to read your latest development. I am so so sorry that you are now facing his next crazy move, he really has lost it.
Everyone is giving you great advice and guiding you well, I know you can do this, you are incredibly strong and rational and understand that right now its a case of protecting yourself and your boys, don't give him an inch.
I have no experience in this area so will let the others here do the talking, but please know I am thinking about you and sending you love and hugs xoxo
Ha who,
I too am sorry to read about the latest
The D was also the time for me when things got ugly
MY xh and I were pretty friendly until that time
He didn't like the fact that I was going to take care of myself
but when things got out in the open from the L I realized MY xh was not only spending a fortune on OW but was gambling and ruining our business
the difficult part Im sure for you is he still lives there
My friend who was already D told me to get a good L
at that time I didn't really understand , but as the process went on I realized although
expensive was worth it
I have another friend who let her XH navigate the D and she signed his papers
She trusted him
she lost every single thing including any alimony/support or retirement plans
Seems like you are getting lots of good support and you will get through this part also
and it will probably be so much easier after he leaves
the house will be brighter with no MLC energy
The kids already know a lot
they see he is off
and you have been there for everyone from he start
they will adjust
You H will probably get worse like so many others do once he leaves and replay is even more ramped up
you have done all you could but maybe its time for you to be free so you can create a better life for yourself
Thank you Job, Bright, MM, Lou and Peace. As always, forever thankful for all the advice.
Peace, yes, mine told me we were to "share a lawyer" he had secured. So I asked, so you have a mediator? He said "no, a lawyer, we can share." ?!? I tried to tell him that isn't possible but then just gave up. Of course his lawyer said he couldn't advise us both. Mine also wanted to draft the whole thing with his lawyer and have me sign. He made a very compelling argument: it'll be faster and cheaper. The problem is there's no one to help me navigate the paperwork, what I am entitled to, what issues should I cover, etc. He thinks I'm being hostile. But in a D isn't it extremely common for both parties to get Ls?
Anyway, when he found out I got a L he flipped out. He had some choice words emailed to me, well, a page worth of choice words. And now he ignores me completely. He hates me. Of course he has a L, maybe I should draft everything and he should just sign. Oh, and my L asked his L to tell him to refrain from communicating with me about all this. He flipped over that, too. Big time control issues and loads and loads of PA behavior.
I am pretty stressed out and not sleeping well. I am ready for him to leave. I did ask my Dr. for something mild to help me sleep. I think this will help clear my thinking. Looking forward to some sleep tonight.
Bracing to tell the kids about it. Oh, I hope he doesn't do it without me. Any advice here?
Yes it is absolutely normal to each have your own lawyer. My ex and I did mediation but we each also had our own lawyers on the side to consult with. It's important for you to know whether you're getting a fair shake.
The only time it would make sense to use one lawyer is if there were no kids, no assets or debts and similar incomes.
As for telling the boys - I know lots of people advise saying it's mutual. I refused to say that as I very much still wanted my marriage at that time. But maybe in your case you'd feel more comfortable saying that? I dunno.
The most important thing is to be calm (if you're panicked they'll be panicked) and reassure them that you both love them and that their lives are going to continue (same house same school). You might be surprised, once they see how relaxed and happy the household is without him around they might quite enjoy it. And at least initially your H may play Disney dad so they might get some actual quality time with him.
You need to be their rock. Hide your stress as much as you can. Stick to the high road and don't badmouth their dad no matter what he says about you. They will respect you for it and for not putting them in the middle.
Thanks KML - no I have zero intention of saying it was mutual. NONE of what has happened these last year's has been mutual.
One last question if h tried to say it was mutual "your mom and I," how would you respond?
I would say "It's not what I want, but your father has made his decision ". Then move quickly on to how you both live the kids, and that won't change.
Also - be prepared for the kids to act out in the future ON YOU. This is because you are the safe parent - they can vent on you without risking losing you, while they don't dare vent on H.
{{{{{{{HaWho}}}}}}}
My exh and I used a mediator, but we also each had a lawyer. Mediators cannot legally advise; their job is to draft the divorce agreement. The lawyer is to advise each party if they're ceding too many rights.
Over the years here it's seemed your H has been a bit of a control freak about many things, so this is not going to be any different. Well, to be blunt, he has given up the right to tell you how to conduct your personal affairs moving forward, business, romantic or any other. You are under zero obligation to do things his way. In fact, you could be actively jeopardizing your future if you do so. He is not rational and he is not looking out for anyone's best interests but his own.
In terms of the children, I didn't tell my son it wasn't mutual. I let my exh spin his BS, and when our son asked me, I just kept saying it didn't matter who made the decision, it wasn't going to change anything and what was important was that we both still loved him and he was the priority.
Son of course quickly figured out what was really going on. There's a lot of tongue biting and word weighing that goes on to make sure you're honest with the kids, but not parentifying them, i.e. turning them into the confidant, saying things like "you're the man of the house now" etc. That's where damage comes from.
I wouldn't want the kids to see a fight, so I'd personally deflect, chose my words very wisely and neutrally, and let them figure it out. This is H's 'stage' let him perform on it. Just be your authentic self. When you're alone with the children you can answer their questions more openly, i.e. your father has made his decision but I think saying that in front of stbxh will only serve to stir the pot in front of the very audience you're trying to soothe.
just my $.02
confidante ^^
hope you got some good sleep xoxoxo
Hawho, I’m sorry to read about recent developments and glad to see you are getting some good advice from others.
I had the same thing with XH. He wanted no Ls and everything in his favour. I got my own L despite this and he then got a L too. Once he got a L he seemed much more reasonable. I think maybe she gave him a good talking to!
My settlement, based on the normal formula in our situation, was roughly double his original offer.
Whilst this must be horrible just now, please know that peace does lie beyond and focus on looking after yourself and you and your boys best interests.
Big hugs to you xxx
Just wanted to say, that Wonka is a re-formed MLC'er. I would take her words and run with them as she has had the sh@tty end of the stick and knows how to use it.
I thought Dorm boy would pull through - maybe he'll come to his senses in the end.
Thanks KML. That is solid advice. I hope you are right that the kids feel some relief. Most worried about s12 who is a bleeding heart.
Bttrfly - such wise advice and with such a heavy hand on kindness. You always balance the two.
Sotto - thank you for this. You are an inspiration at rebuilding; one of the best at showing how it's done!
Huddy - thanks for chiming in. I hoped he would have come a little further these last few years. But alas, no. Sadly, I don't think he's one that will pull through. I don't see him attempting that level of introspection. And I agree with Job that now he'll probably put the pedal to the medal of his replay car.
But yes, Wonka's words to stay calm are golden. Thankfully h has always been a big chicken when it comes to face to face confrontation. Even this week when I went in to tell him he needed to slow down and let me read everything, he kept telling me to "quiet down, shush, you are talking too loud." This is what he does when I try to assert myself; he tries to re-gain control via this shushing method. Now, when he's behind a computer, he spews the most horrific stuff. Really below the belt.
This weekend I had a great opportunity to practice calmness in the face of ridiculousness. My L emailed his L asking that h stop communicating with me as h was insisting I make decisions in an instantaneous fashion. How did h respond? Well, he took the advice quite literally. He is not communicating with me at all. I mean zero. Guess my L should not have assumed common sense would be practiced and instead should have said "refrain from communicating about the d, but do continue communicating about the children."
Yesterday s12 had a game. New team and the schedule was not up and h was the one emailed, not I. S was kinda sure where the game was. He asked h and said mom will meet us there. Obviously I knew we would not drive together and he has now told me I am "dead to him." (Thing is? Think I've been dead to him for years now.) Anyway, he told s not to worry as he'd take him. S again said mom wants to come and nope, h wouldn't tell me where. Cruel that he would do that to me as he knows I work all week and live for seeing his games. The look of confusion on s's face tore me to pieces. Awful the way he triangulates the kids into what is our problem. I just said "no big deal I'll try to see you there. If not, the place is wrong."
I took a chance and went where s thought it was. Arrived early enough that if it was he wrong place I still had time to drive to the other place it could be. As I turn in, I see h's car. Yippee! First thing I did was go to the new coach and give my email address so I can be added to all team info.
Slept 6 hours with my new bestie friend the Dr. gave me. That is more than I slept all week! And the pill has no grogginess in the AM.
Yesterday, I fixed a broken door that had been broken a while. Today, I got a flat tire. When AAA came to put the spare on I had him teach me how to fill the air in my tires correctly. I am doing massive spring cleaning, too. Cleaning out closets and donating old items. It's keeping my mind occupied and my body tired. I remember just what worked for me from those early days of BD.
Thank you to all here. I really do have the Dream Team of MLC beside me!
anti-MLC baby
Anti-MLC ...
GOOD for you for practicing equanimity. Ready to do some meditation? Roist had suggested a site awhile ago and I was delighted, upon going there, to find the Buddhist loving kindness meditation, downloadable for free even! There are two versions, one with music (which I've never used) and the other which I use all the time.
HaWho when I've woken up with panic attacks, I do that meditation and it gets me calm enough to sleep again. Surprisingly it has also helped me to reach a level of detachment and equanimity which I've never had before. If I balance kindness, it's because I actively meditate daily, using this. The site is about excelling at life, since I cannot give you the URL, you can google that and loving kindness meditation and you should be golden.
Re: not telling you the whereabouts of son's game - what a PETTY little man !!!! Oh, sometimes I lose all patience with these people! Good on you for figuring it out and for talking to the coach about emailing you as well.
I'm so proud of you for fixing the door yourself and asking the AAA guy to teach you about properly putting air in your tires. Good for you for clearing out that which no longer serves you.
Sweetheart you've got this and you've got us. You will be just fine and so will your beautiful boys xoxoxoxo
HW, I am very late to the new news, I am so sorry I wasn't on the boards this week. Well, wow, I have to say I did not see this coming. Not from him anyway.
Ok, so here we go. As I was reading through the threads, I wanted to shout out answers to you! I am so happy you had your consult and was set straight on the true steps of the D process. Your H is being a real jerk with his scare tactics and threats. Now that you have the facts, you can see you have some time on your side. Also remember, it's all negotiable, so don't rush any decisions.
I'm sorry you have to continue living with crazy for a bit. You will be amazed when he leaves, how your home will become a safe, calm, peaceful haven for you and the boys.
As for your sons, that's the toughest part of all of this. My S was 6 when BD hit. At first, it was a bit hairy, with stomach aches and S not wanting to be away from me, not wanting to go with his dad. H was at least willing to not push S too much in the beginning, by letting him stay with me if there was a meltdown. Over time, S adjusted. To this day, he still dislikes going to his dad's, and dislikes him in our quiet peaceful home. When he voices it, I agree with him, it's a real crappy situation and not what I ever wanted for him. HW, I am honest with my S, without badmouthing H. I validate his feelings and let him know I hate it as much as he does.
However, I also remind him how lucky he is, to have a dad who loves him very much, who just enjoys spending time with him. I know, in the long run, this time with his dad, and the fact I support and encourage it, will mean a lot to S some day.
When it came to telling S about our separation, I was also honest in telling him it's not what I want, but we need to make the best of it and will get through it as a family. I have to say, we have done just that.
Kids are smart, and I'm sure your sons know what is really going on around them. I know you will continue to be their rock. I just believe being honest without blame is a good thing.
HW we are all here for you.
M
Thanks Bttrfly. Actually the company for which I work is very active with meditation. We are offered to take 20 minutes worth each day! And twice a week we have access to an onsite studio where we have a quick class (during business hours) where we stretch and meditate. It's pretty smart as I am sure it increases productivity and also, it is so bad to sit all day long. I will check that out!
Hi Mleigh, well, I was as shocked as you are. Another BD. H has his finger hovering over the red button at all times. Love the way you discussed things with your son. I'll be borrowing that and mixing it in with what KML and Bttrfly advised.
Now here is something quite interesting. This morning I saw that, one day after h learned I obtained my own lawyer, there is a transfer in place from an account I do not know about. Well, well, well. Also interesting? Another account mysteriously appeared as well. I had asked h about that exact amount of money several years ago as I kind of lost track of things when he kids were young, life was frenetic and I trusted my h implicitly. It's a significant amount. At the time (just before replay) h told me we'd spent it on the addition we built. We had an argument as I was incredulous that he could spend that much over what I thought it was all costing. Even more interesting is that he had undermined me by telling me that I had no idea how construction projects work and how things balloon over budget. No wonder he was so anxious to have me sign, sign, sign and use his L. It'll be interesting how this version of his assets form differs from the one he gave his L.
Looks like my L has already paid for himself . . .
Oh bravo HaWho!! I am thoroughly and absolutely delighted by that news! About time something has gone your way.
write down those account numbers.
you're going to need that information.
HaWho,
Please take some time and do a credit report on both of you. You may find more info that you weren't aware of.
As for that account, write the bank numbers down and do a little bit of research when you can. They are very sneaky and will not share info w/you...but it seems like they tell on themselves.
Hang in there! We are all here for you.
I remember MY L was very strict on getting any and accounts on paper.He said there was no way to hide anything legally-
even inheritances ect.
every last cent- we both had to own up to-
So your H may be illegally transfering money but most decent L would not stand for that- at least thats what mine said-
H,
I just wanted to chime in and say how great you are doing. Not telling you about son’s game? That’s beyond words, but so is your H. Hugs to you.
So, part of his MANIAC EMERGENCY is about trying to cover his tracks. I am SO glad to hear that your L has already paid for herself.
I also cannot fathom your H trying to prevent you from attending the son's baseball games. How does he possibly think that is going to work out for his R with his S? Like, hello? And, oh man, I'm so sorry.
Just a suggestion: that would be the kind of thing that is worth documenting in a note for your L. I don't know what your hopes and intentions with custody are, but a spouse who demonstrates an unwillingness to support the healthy relationship with a child's other parent is a pretty big flag re: custody.
ditto on what Surv1ve said! Buy yourself a brand spankin new notebook and label it "divorce negotiations" - write down dates and events.
Ex. Son's baseball game, deposits from unknown accounts (account #s dates and times)
Brava Surv1ve for catching that one.
Good grief.
I read somewhere in my paperwork that all assets must be disclosed, and if the info is found to be intentionally withheld, that person may end up losing it all to the other spouse. That is a big big no no.
Good work finding that out! I agree with the others about keeping notes with your H behavior. He is being very PA and immature so far.
I am not totally sure, but I think your boys, at their age, might have some say in what they want? Did your L mention anything about that? Once you sit down with them about what is happening, just you and them, you can find out their wishes and comfort levels. I know your H is being a poop, but you have to keep in mind what will be best in the long run for the boys. You know best, but if you know your H truly loves them and is a good dad, I would keep his immature antics towards you separate. For my S, knowing we both love him dearly, both have our time with him, and both put him first before our issues with each other, has kept his world balanced. I hope, even if your H isn't grounded enough right now to handle things that way, your ability to will help the boys.
I am glad to hear your L is working well for you. You also sound like you are handling things well. Hopefully, as things progress, your H will calm down a bit. I hope.
((((HW))))
HaWho, sorry your H is being such a bully. He is definitely pushing your buttons in the hope you will bite so he can justify why he is divorcing you.
I think you are doing great in the circumstances. I think I would be a heap on the floor if I had to deal with that level of spitefulness!
(((HaWho)))
I'm so sorry HaWho,
You've gone through so much (((cwtch)))
I just read the happy again posts from somewhere in the sticky notes where a MLC spouse confirms about pushing our buttons to justify their crappy actions. My H has admitted to that, too.
Man, do your best to give him no fodder but I think I'm also asking you to dodge a hail of bullets.
I am so admiring of your strength. Gosh, can your H go to his apartment already? Give you some much-deserved peace.
Thanks one and all!
Job, I ran a report last week; mine is almost 800 and h's is over 800.
And yes, like many of you say, I think he is pushing buttons, picking fights to justify why I am so awful that I deserve this. I can see it, it's just as he did in the beginning. He wants reasons to feel how he does.
Survive - I too read Happy's threads and saw an awful lot of my h there. But the difference is Happy never filed for divorce and he did not have PAs. It is time to really face the gravity of what he's done to our lives and stop excusing it all under that wonderful all encompassing umbrella of MLC. He is taking my kids from me 50% of the time. These are valuable years and I have to give up 50% so he can go to an apartment and grow up all over again.
No, I'll be honing in on making my own happiness, for me and my kids. As my L told me (with exasperation): "you better stop focusing on him. Because the more you focus on him the less you focus on you and your own kids." Exactly what we're told here.
Recently I read TXHubby's threads and really understood that for many, they just don't want to r. It's arduous. After 2 - 3 more years of this and then a few more years of depression/acceptance he'll be coming in on 10 hrs. On several occasions, I have seen the very little boy, 6 or 7 years old. I think that makes sense for him based on the level of emotional stunting that happened to him.
And let's say he makes it through all that. Then there is recovery from the OW he will have. And while I understand the psychology of that, it doesn't mean I want that written into my life story. And best of all? There will always be the wonder that maybe, just maybe, he didn't full complete and that glitch will cause this all to repeat. And will I always be looking over my shoulder for signs of that?
This whole thing is like March of the Penguins.
HaWho,
Glad the credit reports came out clean.
That questioning of repeating the cycle at some point in the future?
Yes, that is a haunting one.
(((HaWho)))
Omg. I don't think I've fully thought about this concept of repeating. I seriously cannot go through this again. Nopealope. March of the penguins... amazing.
Hi Hawho,
It sounds like you're handling things well. The custody issue is so difficult, I'm sorry you're dealing w/a broken person. It is unbelievable how blind they are when it comes to custody. 52 weekends a year, they just don't get it. Xw told me I could have a relationship w/the kids through Skype! Thank God things worked in my favor. I really think the notebook idea mentioned is great, it would be good insurance in case you h gets more hostile. I know I sound like a broken record but it gave the guardian attorney a glimpse into her actions.
Take care((HW))
Meant to say my xw's actions
Repeating the cycle - I went through that with my ex. Turning 40 bothered him, setting off a mini MLC that culminated in him having an affair at 42. I DB'd like crazy, we had a good reconciliation and several good years until he was approaching 50 - then serious MLC kicked in and off he went. In retrospect, he had other issues -narcissism- which was always present, just worsened with age and multiple concussions. But I also think that once the genie is out of the bottle - once a spouse has cheated - it's always an option in their mind to exit that way. (Not to say some don't sincerely regret their affair and remain steadfast in their marriage after - I've seen that IRL. But for many, that option, once exercised, remains a possibility in their mind).
Thanks all.
Just a quick update: h plans to move out next week. He again tried to get me to drop my L. H said I should fire my L and then just run things through him (h). He said he can ask HIS lawyer stuff. I can't tell if he's stupid or just playing stupid. Probably it's a bit of both. His own lawyer has said to h that he can't legally counsel both of as he is h's lawyer. Sigh.
He tried raging on me via email until my L told him to knock it off. Then he tried guilting me into firing my L. When that didn't work he went gangster and told me I am his "sworn enemy." Hmm, did not realize I am divorcing Tony Soprano.
The best part of this whole "drop your lawyer and work through me" plan is that he is ignoring me 100% of the time. He acts like I don't exist. He is in the dorm room and when I get home he scurries off to his apartment I assume. If I am in a room he turns around and walks out. Tonight he walked out of the kitchen when I walked I. and when I came into the hall to go upstairs, he had his back turned to a wall and he just stood here waiting for me to pass.
He acts giddy a lot. He puts on this cheerful voice with the kids and I do think he is very excited for his new life. I saw this same behavior at BD.
Turns out he's just as sneaky as I thought he was. That claim of his that we separated in 2016 is so that he can claim any profits on investments beyond that date. Many of the financial documents he presents as joint show account balances ending that 2016 date. I suspect he was putting joint money in there and claiming it is now his as we were already separated. I am starting to see why he pushed so hard to get me to sign that I agreed to the division of assets. Definitely his plan was to shock me and then get me to just agree fast so I had no time to think.
If we were separated in 2016 then it's a complete surprise to me and every single other person who knows us (including our own children). We still had joint accounts, filed as married, he still wore his ring, he never told anyone we separated and he moved back into the MBR during that time.
At times he's emailed that we will be friends after this is done. But he really refuses to look me in the eye at all. And if I don't do what he wants how he wants he comes up with all these gangster lines: you're dead to me or you're my enemy now.
I keep telling myself I will get through this and build a normal life again.
To quote Queen Gertrude "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" - where he is the lady in question here.
I think I represent the consensus view where this amount of gas-lighting means that he's hiding something that he thinks is big.
HaWho,
I am not at all surprised at how he is behaving. No, he's not stupid, but he's hoping that you'll listen to him. Of course, he wants you to fire your lawyer...he wants to have control over everything and he's not happy that your lawyer told him to knock the stuff off.
Gather your proof that you were still together because you will need that info. Let your lawyer know that you can provide witnesses to the fact that you were still together at that time in 2016. In my opinion, your h has been planning his escape for a long time and thinks that he can get away with his stash of money and you aren't smart enough to figure things out.
Gosh, this man is a clone of my xh. BTW, I also agree w/Andrew...the man is hiding something and the gaslighting is his way to make you think you are nuts or to take your focus off of what needs to be done. Don't let him see you sweat!
Agh, honestly - the whole....Oh don't worry, I can just run things through my L for us both. Really??
I would just have a stock phrase of - H - we both need to be properly advised during this process - and leave it at that. He can rage all he wants. It isn't going to change....
I think your H is kicking off rather like Mleigh's is. The thing is, they think it is all going to go a certain way (their way) and they don't entertain any other thought - forgetting there is someone else in the mix with interests and free will.
Hopefully his L will help settle things down a little. I certainly found that to be the case in my situation.
Just keep moving forward HaWho and things will get easier in time I promise xxx
Thank you Andrew. When I read your posts to other people I always see a sensibility to your advice. So, I am going to heed your words.
Job - yes, he definitely thought this was all going to go like this: he would draft everything and I would sign. The second I said I needed a minute to look things over, is the minute he started getting really mad. He also thinks this is going to be no absolutely no big deal for the kids. And yes, he's clearly been strategizing for a very long time.
Regarding us being separated, I have a text from him from this September wishing me a happy anniversary. And it even says this is the second year he has wished me a happy anniversary first! At times I feel so disoriented. He so strongly tells me it was all so awful. And then I just remember all the mixed signals. Sometimes I feel like I don't know what is the truth anymore. Then I tell myself it doesn't really even matter anymore.
Sotto - thank you for telling me this will get easier. I really need to hear (and believe) that right now.
You will not only get thru it you will thrive in a new situation without the crazy in your space ! Trust me! Xoxoxo
Hawho,
I’m glad you aren’t letting him bully you into anything unreasonable. Yes, he’s acting like a not so smart 12 year old bully who thinks he can get his way and if he doesn’t, then he has a temper tantrum. It’s exasperating but you my dear are stronger than this, so much stronger. How are the boys?
Thank you Bttrfly. I just want this part to end. So much stress.
And Gordie thanks for the encouragement.
I'd love some input. Here is what h proposes for custody split. Please note that he sees them each day after school before I get home around 5:00 ish. So he gets about 10 hours with s14 and about 17 extra hours w/s12 per week. I think I should get an extra night as he has this extra after school time. Also he wants them every Sunday and wants me to have them every Saturday (HELLO REPLAY). And he proposes the following split:
H would like sons Sunday day and night, Tuesday day and night, Thursday day and night and every other Friday day and night (that's 50/50). We live two miles from each other. He wants the dog to remain with the boys wherever they spend the night. (Probably so they can clean up after him--ha ha.) The other days would be spent at my house.
This seems like a lot of jostling. Experienced vets, can you advise? I think he is proposing a very atypical schedule.
HaWho,
This totally depends on your state. Your lawyer should know absolutely what is typical. I live in a new age, new-fangled blue state where the parties are free to craft their own plans in your situation, nevertheless it does seem like a lot of back and forth.
Also doesn't make much sense. What if you want to go away for a weekend, or he does. A full weekend alternating split would make more sense.
What if he had two days during the week and then you guys split Friday through Sunday every other week. Seems like you'd be at 50/50 with less disruption for the boys.
I'll be interested to see if he exercises this. Hard for me to believe since mine is apparently no longer interested in seeing his son (even for the whopping 2 hours per month he was) and appears to accept that daughter wants no part of him and can't be bothered to find out why or repair the relationship.
HaWho,
I don't know... I mean, I definitely would not want to be sleeping in a different bed every second day. I think week on, week off makes the most sense with the "off week parent" having a night of the week that they hang out with the kids.
I am so sorry this is happening to you. Ouch, ouch.
Ha,
Have you considered requesting a psych eval? I considered it for mine, along with drug testing. If there are concerns about the safety of the children, you have the right to ask. At least in Ohio, you do. You have plenty of ammo from the "poisoned food" to a million other things. I would question his competency to handle 50/50 parenting. Just my two cents.
Hi Hawho,
That schedule sounds like way too much hassle to me. I have the kids every other week and every Saturday as xw works Saturdays so that could change. We also wrote in that we can have one night to visit on our off week. Both of us only do this every so often. We change after school on Mondays so it limits seeing xw (normally would anyway).
Not only is that a lot of running around but it has you seeing him more than you need to. IMO not too stable for the kids, or anyone, changing things up so much. I don’t think he’s thinking about anyone but himself w/that schedule, especially since he wants you to take Saturdays. I like having the kids every Saturday but I know some day when I’m ready for a R that it might make things harder but I think of it as bonus time because my time has already been cut in half because of xw’s decisions.
Get what works best for you and the boys! You are the only one that can do what is right for yourself, kids, and h right now.
Holy run on sentence Batman, lol. I also wanted to add that even though things were tense at first, after things calmed down, xw has been good about custody schedule. We can switch times for events, work, etc. generally trouble free and fairly so hopefully when the dust settles you h will do the same.
Hi
I don't really know-- may be trial and error for a while
But your L may advise you better
and I agree with the others
make sure he is safe to be with them so much
I never knew until my kids told me their dad almost fell asleep at the wheel
I didn't realize he was using substances to that degree
But one thing for sure
once you gat past this hurdle and D..
you will probably be so much more peaceful and free
hang in
I'm going to answer you as a mom who has to split time with exh and as the mother of a boy who has good friends who never spend more than 2 days at one parent's house.
As much as I hate the every other week, and I know my son also isn't crazy about it, neither my son nor I can fathom how my boy's friends can move from house to house two or three times a week. It's disruptive. It's not conducive to a healthy life.
I strenuously encourage you to look at an alternative. Ask the boys what they would prefer, if you think that is helpful. If you are to split time, make it every other week versus this insane plan your stbx has concocted.
And, as a woman who has son EVERY saturday night - DON"T do that.
xoxoxo
Hawho,
I had my opinion on the custody schedule, but I decided to go to the expert first. My 10 year old daughter who has been living the 2-home life since she was a baby. My ex and I do not have 50/50 custody, but I asked her if me and her father split the week evenly how would she want it and what wouldn't she want. I left it pretty open ended to get an honest answer (of course I told her I was asking for a friend). She told me she would want a few nights at one house and a few nights at another and would NOT want to pop back an forth every other night. Completely unprompted she told me she would not at all want to split weekends. Definitely likes alternating. We split weekends once in a blue moon when one parent has a commitment.
You have a high schooler who may make his own decision. You have an 11 year old who is old enough to have input. We both know your H did not consider at all what was best for his kids, only what was best for him when making this schedule. Most 50/50 parenting plans I know do Friday night thru Monday day every other week, then one parent has Monday Tuesday and the other has Wednesday Thursday.
Your kids may not want to stay there over night. You might want to come up with a plan to tackle that one. They are older and they have seen his behavior, how he acts like a kid. They might be worried they won't get meals or get them to their activities..... I can almost guarantee they see you as the only source of security, and may not want to leave that. And I can't say I blame them one bit.
This might get ugly, but I really think you shouldn't worry about that. The only thing you should worry about is the kids. Because you are the only one who really has for many years. They are fortunate to have you.
HaWho,
I also checked with my kids on their feeling about the custody schedule we've had in place for the last 3 yrs. I am still in the marital home and he found an apartment about 1 mile from our home. My kids hate the back and forth even though the houses are so close.
I agree with talking with your boys and trying to figure out what works for you and them, not necessarily him.
I'm not sure where you are, but in my area if you go to court custody is determined in nights only. My H sees our kids everyday after school for 2 hrs and has them all day every day all summer long. So, when calculating hours, he actually sees our kids more than I do in terms of waking hours.
In addition to after school every day they also sleep at his house every Sunday and Monday night.
It is not an ideal situation for the boys, but right now it is working ok, so we are going to stay with it.
I also agree the back and forth during the week (even though you are going to be so geographically close) would be difficult.
My kids friends are all closer to our home than my H's apartment, so as my kids are getting older, they would prefer to be home more because their friends are there.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this. The custody arrangement was the hardest for me to get through. I still struggle with the fact that I can't provide one home for my kids.
Hey HW,
Lots of different answers here! What it comes down to is what works for you and the boys, and it may take some tweaking. In my case, S was 6. No way did I or S feel comfortable going with H for a week at a time, he was too irresponsible and unstable at the time. I stood my ground and dug my heels in on that one. S was also pretty verbal about wanting to be with me. We came up with S going with H every Monday night, Thursday night, and every other Saturday night. It is not 50/50 but we haven't been dealing with the courts yet.
S is now almost 11 and I check in with him about the schedule every now and then. He says it still works for him. We have done some tweaking because of H work schedule, so instead of H taking him to school on his mornings, he drops S back off at home, I take him to school every morning. The Saturday night has also evolved to Saturday around 1:00 until Sunday about 3:00. We are pretty flexible with each other too. Oh and dog goes with S. It is a comfort for him so why not.
S best friend does 1 full week rotation with each parent. For me and S, we would not ever like or want that. Honestly I think it would be too much for H. I know, his problem, but it would effect my S. S explains it as, he can deal with staying at daddy's for a night knowing he will be back home the next night.
My opinion, talk to the boys. They are old enough to have an opinion. See their reaction to the full week schedule or mixed days schedule. I know it sounds like a lot of back and forth, but it really isn't a big deal for us. It has become a routine we are used to, we both make an effort to have S spend time with friends, and S is still a straight A student so no effect on school or school work.
I see this to be the hardest part of this mess. I hate that our babies have to deal with this. I have no real words of comfort, it really stinks, but I have grown to enjoy most of my free time. Do what works for you and the boys HW.
M
HaWho,
I hope he has settled down in the attacks on you and the mafia speeches he has been giving.
It will be interesting to see if the years he spent wallowing will cause him to burn through replay faster. I know that Cadet on the other board he participates on says that the harder they hit replay the faster they go through it.
How are the kids doing? I imagine that with him ignoring you and preparing to go that they have gotten wind that something is amiss.
My thoughts are with you.
Thanks all. I appreciate all the input. It helped me formalize a plan.
I hear you Heather. That battle is a big one and ugly one. I am hesitant to drag my kids through it and I feel they are old enough to begin to have more input very soon.
We told the kids. H woke S14 up at 8AM to do it. Was that really necessary?
The worst is he told them to think about how they react to all this as they'll be men someday. Awful. He also said they're old enough to handle this. Terrible.
He told them the reason he wants D is marriage is to show them an affectionate relationship where a man and a woman hold hands and hug and the man holds doors for the woman. (Can't he do all that? And is that really what marriage is about?!? What about upholding your vows and working at it? Bizarre.)
He told them he's had to stay in that small room and he's not that kinda guy; he's a "big personality." (No one locked him in there and he's been a wallflower since 2012.) He said he could keep living in there for the next 6 years until S12 left for college but then I'd end up all alone and so he was doing this all for me. (Later s14 said I better not have a boyfriend and I am sure the seed was planted from this bizarre comment.)
After I said my part: I did not want this for our family, I love and support you, your school won't change, your rooms are here; I am here to listen to all you have to say and accept all that you feel, etc.
When I was done h said he didn't want this either. S14 said: so what are you doing it then?
The kids went off to process alone. Later they came out to my room--their safe haven all these years. They ate pancakes in my bed. They started to talk in dribs and drabs. They are shocked. I overhead them saying there was no reason h had to stay in that room all the time.
H tried to talk to them. They were polite but asked him to leave them alone. KML is right in that they didn't feel safe discussing it with him. They showed me anger and sadness and shock. I validated. They asked when I found out and I said just days ago.
H left.
As for me? I feel relief. The anxiety of it all was weighing on me. It's time for him to go to his greener pastures.
As always, I am thankful to you all. Special thanks for the advice you gave me to move along like he wouldn't wake up.
HaWho, I'm sorry it came to that, but it sounds like it went as well as it could. My H said the same thing about showing them an affectionate relationship (with OW1 at the time). He has still not mentioned OW2, but then again he doesn't really talk to them or see them.
I think it will get better from here. It did for me. My kids tried a few times to discuss their feelings. H is completely incapable of hearing any of that and literally runs from them.
One strong parent. One person they can trust. It is enough. You will teach them how to be decent, kind men. He is unable to do that.
HaWho,
I am very sorry it has come to this, but I am like you...why wake someone up at 8:00 a.m. to tell him that he is getting a divorce from the child's mother? The only explanation that I have for that is to catch the kids off guard because they aren't fully awake at that time. What a coward!
I think what he told your sons is a load of BS. He's trying to sugar coat the fact that he was the one that opted to live in the dorm room. No one forced him to do that and your sons know that. Oh, yeah, he's doing for you alright...he's trying to paint himself the martyr. Well, he'll never reach sainthood spouting such stuff.
Your sons haven't felt comfortable around their father for quite some time and it's you that the come to when they need to talk or get support. I know you'll always have the door open to them. They are going to have a lot of questions and observations in the days ahead.
As for your home, I think you'll feel a lot of relief in the days ahead. The walking around on eggshells will be gone and stability and order will once again take place. BTW, be sure to leave the window open in that dorm room for a while. It will be interesting to see if he shares w/you the address of where he's living.
Stay strong and positive and most importantly, do not allow him to bully/manipulate you into doing anything you do not feel is right.
Do NOT let him parentify those children, if there's any way you can avoid it. That jumped out at me immediately. I'd raise that as a concern to your lawyer. I will be back later when I have a bit more time xoxo
hugs
Ownit - yes, it went as well as it could.
Bttrfly - I thought of you when he said that parentifying junk.
Job - yeah, they are asking me why we are divorcing. They think it is sudden (their BD) and his reasons were strange to them. We don't fight, argue and we've had some good times these last few years. I don't know how to answer this one. H's reasons were really lame, not what marriage is based on.
And yes, Job, he's already started with his nonsense. He wanted to be able to get his own mail from here! Err, WRONG! I told him in no uncertain terms I will give him any mail he receives.
Next up was his grand plan to leave all his junk in the garage. And there's a lot of it; remember the car parts? Lots of old big stuff that is pure junk. His plan was for me to store it for him. I told him no way. I want it out. I've seen how that goes from Andrew's wife and Mleigh's husband.
So then he said he'll sell it the junk out of my garage over the next few weeks. Wrong again! I told him I work full time and will not be able to grant him access to my garage. (That felt great to say after months of hearing that garage door at all hours.) And I also told him I don't want people trolling my property without me here as it's not safe and we have a lot of robberies in my neighborhood.
Lastly I said, we are separated. You are moving out. Separated people take their stuff with them and sell it from THEIR houses. He said the move will take two days. If his stuff is not out, I will have it hauled out and bill it to him.
My kids have big hearts. It is as Job said. The three is us upstairs supporting each other. H bought drinks and carried them up to bribe them. S14 was worried how the dog would adjust. So heartbreaking. S12 told me he feels he has no family. So hard to swallow that.
And where is h? In his room watching tv with the door closed.
Hey Ha,
That scene sounds awful. So so sorry for you and the boys. You're a tough cookie and so are they--ironically, what your H just did--in an effort to make himself sound better, he brought you and the boys closer. Kids know who the sane parent is. They just do. There's no hiding that fact.
When I caught up on your situation, it brought back some memories of my own D, which took a long time and became pretty ugly. M ex-H threw all he had at me.
Remember, just because you are vocal about what you want, it doesn't mean you will end up at trial and dragging your kids through the mud. Sometimes it's as simple as letting your attorney and his know your concerns, which are valid and worth fighting for... your H does NOT want his crazee broadcasted. Use that against him. Don't be bullied.
Take it from a master at being bullied. I learned the hard way... most of what he threatens, just like the original "let's do this without attorneys" is B.S. It's all bluff to scare you and maintain control. He's his attorney's problem now. And, don't think for a second that his attorney can't see his crazee.
My suggestion is this, now that I'm on the other side: You get one opportunity here to protect your children. Consider what hill you are prepared to die on. For me, it was the kids and retirement.
Early on, my ex-H threatened to take the kids 50/50, in order to avoid child support. In my case, it never came to any psych eval/drug test. He bailed before things got serious. His M.O. was to disappear and everyone knew he was an addict. But, he threatened me with a ton.
-What I did, however, was have my attorney make it clear that I would ask for a drug test, in particular, if he requested 50/50.
-I also made sure my youngest saw more than one psychologist/counselor... in order to provide feedback to the court if necessary. In both cases, our D, 11 or so at the time, made it clear what was going on with her Dad and how she didn't want to see him.
What's the one thing an MLC-er wants to avoid at any cost? The shame and embarrassment of who they have become. When the truth rears it's head, they go back under their rock. This may be as simple as a letter from your attorney making it known you don't see your H as competent right now. You've seen his behavior alter dramatically in the past however many years.
I suspect, your H will run and hide if you call his bluff. Even if he doesn't, your kids will see that you fought hard to protect them. But, you can let your attorney handle it.
Maybe let your attorney know you are not comfortable with 50/50, ask about a guardian ad litem, get the boys in to see a professional
**Put it out there to H's attorney and yours, that you have concerns about this proposed arrangement. Provide some documentation to your attorney about some of the crazee behavior. Let his attorney know, you want a professional opinion on what's best for the boys and have them suggest an objective counselor.
And, Congratulations on getting to the part where he is OUT OF THE HOUSE!!! REST. RECHARGE. YOU got this.
Get clear on what you want. You won't get everything, but, in my case, I got the important issues in my favor--custody of our youngest and retirement.
I can't believe your H woke up your S to tell him this. Such a selfish inconsiderate act.
HW, it sounds like you are standing up for yourself and I like it. Give your sons some time to let this sink in and expect more questions. Once H is out....I predict a very new energy in your home, better for you all.
Sounds like the boys see his BS for what it is. I love that they feel comfortable with you. My S and I became much closer after BD and have been since.
So, how are you doing with all of this? A lot has happened in the last few weeks for you. I hope you are taking care of yourself and I really hope some peace will come once Mr. Grumpy is gone. I'm so sorry how this has turned out.
M