Update:
So stbx came to talk about the D agreement and there are more things she wants to change. No change on the 50-50 on custody but it’s just more back and forth on the financial side of things. And then we had a long R discussion, summary below:
W: I don’t know if I want to D. Why can’t I have you and OM2? Or why can’t you stay here after we D? I’m sorry I’ve hurt you. You have become a different, better person (she listed specific things she liked better about G 2.0). If you had made these changes years ago, things would be different. You are my best friend. That’s the best part of our R. Maybe we’re just not sexually compatible. Why dont your respond to my physical advances any more? Do you think we could rebuild our M?
G: I want to be your H not your friend. I will not be in an open M or three way R. You asked some time ago for us to stop our physical R and I have honored that. If we get D, then I am moving out. I want my own space and my own life separate from you. Re sexual compatibility, I have asked myself the same question and I don’t have an answer for you. We never openly communicated about our sexual desires. If we had done that, then our sexual R would have been very different. We can’t stay M if you are pursuing other men. If you were willing to recommit to our M, then we could build a new R but it would take a lot of work.
Thanks to all of you. If I didn’t have all of you, then I would not have been able to have that discussion as confidently as I was able to do.
Ginger,
You were absolutely right. She wants it all right now: me and OM2. And I’m not giving her that option and now she doesn’t know what to do.
SJohn6,
Wow, you read all my threads? That must have taken a long time. I have read others full threads which I do find helpful. I’m glad mine were helpful to you. God knows all of the advice and 2x4s here have been life-saving to me.
Well done Gordie - you have been well briefed! Not an easy convo, but I don't believe you will regret those responses my friend.
Xx
Excellent reply to W. Glad yourecognise thatyou are ableto have difficultconversations confidently.
Maybe you should close the door a little further on a futureR with W,, at least appear to her. At the moment she thinks you willttakeher backunfer certain conditions. So you are still available. Add doubt to her whetheryyou wouldwant to restart any R with her.
Just my slight adjustment. Taking nothing away from how wellyou did.
Best wishes
Excellent job Gordie! I hope you are also talking to your DB Coach. Truth is, if you re-build this marriage it's going to have to be a completely new relationship. hard to do, but not impossible.
Keep being true to yourself. You're not alone, we're all here and you are making us proud by standing for yourself in such a respectful, yet firm manner. xoxoxo
Excellent job, Gordie! Your DB Coach has and is continuing to help guide you.
As bttrfly said, if you do rebuild your marriage, it will need to be rebuilt from the ground up, i.e., brand new relationship.
Continue as you have been and know that we are all here for you.
Sotto, Roist, Butterfly, Job,
Thanks for all the support and encouragement. I am proud of how I handled myself but am now wondering...what if she refuses to sign?
Do I just give her more time and space?
I have read about others whose spouses won’t sign and never understood that,,,but now that’s my reality. What to do?
My L says I shouldn’t move out until this is signed so I feel kind of stuck and controlled by my stbx.
Gordie - I'm not a lawyer, but I will occasionally play one on the internet <smile>.
One thing that struck me about my separation agreement vs the usual commercial contracts that I've read is how in the separation agreement that the clauses are considered "severable" - that is, each of them can exist independently. In most commercial contracts if one clause is invalidated the whole thing is tossed out.
It may be a higher legal spend, but perhaps check with your lawyer to see if you can get an agreement in place now for the things you "DO" agree on and then deal with the other pieces later? Perhaps those remaining pieces will be of the sort that allow you to move out and begin rebuilding while that is sorted out.
Again - not a lawyer here and this might not be a path for you.
Hi Gordie,
You’re doing good with this, your responses to your w sound calm and firm.
In regard to your question, I think only you can decide. After reading what she said to you I wouldn’t be surprised if she holds out to see how you respond to her crazy wants/cake eating. Take your attorney’s advice about not moving out there Krio you find out why, in some states I think it can be grounds to claim you abandoned the house.
Keep up the good work and stay strong
AndrewP—I hadn’t thought of that and will ask my L.
K—thank you. I know and that’s why I feel trapped. Moving out will hurt my child custody claim so I can’t.
Journaling:
One day at a time. It was a tough day. I tried to keep my chin up and give myself pep talks all day but deep down I was hurting. Hearing stbx tell me she doesn’t know if she wants to D and that she wants me and OM2 threw me for a loop. I think my expectations were finally down to zero and somehow this raises them. But I don’t want to be in competition. I want to be the only choice. She is playing with my head and heart. Somehow it’s easier to be outright rejected. I can’t sleep. I miss having a woman who loves me and cares about me and holds me. I was tempted to reach out to her today but I resisted.
Hi Gordie, I'm sorry you had a rough day and I can see that must have thrown you for a loop. To move from 'I'm done' to 'hey maybe I can have an open marriage with you' - rough...
I think you did well and in your heart you know that being involved with her whilst she is involved with OM is the worst possible scenario. Much better to keep your boundaries intact and move solidly forward. Fact is, just now your W has become someone you wouldn't even consider dating..
I'm sorry you are going through this, but I do want to tell you that further down the road a lovely woman will come into your life - because - of the way you have handled yourself through all of this. Lovely women are attracted to that...
Take Gordie and I hope the weekend is better for you. Are you leaving W in charge sometimes and getting out yourself?
Xx
That is a big question and one only you get to answer. Of coursewe will share our thoughts though........
The D as she envisaged it is not working out as she thought. Nowshe is thinking that the status quo is better so no rush to change. She has the two worlds she wanted, so it's not so bad for her.
OM is not likely to likethis situation dragging on and often couldpressure W to commit fully. That will strain them. But as he alreadybegan a R with a married woman with loads of kids, his normal compass must be off too, so who really knows.
But that is secondary. What you want is primary. Take the time to figure this out.
I am no specialist but what I see as a worse situation is away turning around and saying she wants to stay married. Don't get me wrong. That is a great objective. But if it happens now I doubt it would take more than six months for her to flip to the other side again.
So I am saying she is no where near ready to R with you. She isn't someone you would want to R with either. So for me any R is off the cards until she proves it is feasible.
So that leaves continuing limbo or pushing forward.
Limbo [censored] but as we all know this will take time. So n in a way
you are gaining time. And there is always a chance albeit slim, that the could just turn around.
However can you or would you want to or even could you live that way?
There are many good arguments to deciding that this situation does not suit you and to push forward towards separate paths. Ultimately that is often what tilts the balance back in favour of the lbs. But usually not immediately. Often it is long after that this decision becomes attractive to WAS because itwas a strong decision done kindly but firmly. Initially it is received badly because they aren't getting what they want.
Food for thought.......
Best wishes
Sotto and Roist,
You are right. I’ve gotta tough this out. No, I do not want to be married to a woman who doesn’t know up from down. You are torn between your life with me and fantasy land with your POS OM2? Ugh. Question is can I get her to sign without taking her to court?
Journaling:
Well, I have been continuing as I have been. Recent conversation I realize does not change anything. Need to bring expectations back to zero. NC except for kids and money and divorce stuff. I have resisted initiating anything or responding to calls or texts. I assume she is spending time her time outside the house with OM2 but I don’t ask and she doesn’t tell. She came to me once as I was walking out the door with the kids going to a birthday party and she was on the verge of tears and said she needed to talk to me. Given the circumstances I just pleasantly said okay and walked out. No idea what the happens next. I am tempted to say:
If you can’t decide between me and OM2, then please let me go. Months ago, you asked me to let you go and I did. Now I ask the same of you. Sign the divorce papers and let me go. I deserve to pursue my own happiness just as much as you are and I can’t move on/out until we D.
Reflecting back upon how much time she spent with me this summer and playing family, I now believe that it was after with EA with OM1 died and before PA with OM2 started. That would make her behavior more understandable to me now. Maybe things with OM2 are waning, so now she is coming back to me again? I have nothing to prove this, but it seems that has happened to others around here.
P.S. She asked if we could sleep on the same bedroom again and I said no.
stay strong. you're doing great in miserable circumstances. very impressive! xoxoxo i'm proud of you! xoxoxoxo
Hey Gordie
As Bttrfly said. Stay strong. You are a better man keeping your boundaries. I know its hard to resist the idea of sharing the bed once again with your W. Shes not there yet. Xmas time is tough on them and she might be feeling you pulling away. You can't accept an open relationship. It would make you the other man.
If her relationship with OM2 is dying. Once it does, she will need time alone to process it all and not jump back to you too fast. You will need to work hard together if any true rebuild is possible. I don't see that as a quick fix. Stand tall and strong as temptation will make it difficult to resist. If she is not completely baked.. stay clear.
keep up the amazing job with your kids.
Gordie,
The holidays bring out a lot of good memories for them and they want that "pull" for just a while. Once the holidays are over, it's back to their normal MLC behavior. Also, I don't know about your state, but if you are sleeping w/your wife, the clock stops on the time of separation and it will have to be reactivated if she leaves again. I found that out when my I was going through my separation/divorce because I asked that question just to be on the safe side.
Listen to the advice of others. Irish has given you some good advice about the fact of a relationship dying. If it is dying or has died, she will need time alone to process it and you don't want to be the rebound for just a little while. She needs to face all of this on her own and, if and when she's ready to do the hard work to earn your trust and be a wife, companion and mother again. Don't be too quick to welcome her back into your bed...leave her to finish baking. She's half way there.
Hey Gordie,
I do think you did really well. You are in a really tough place, but you are valuing yourself which is soooo important.
I agree with Irish and Job. You don't want her to come back because she had to choose between the two of you. She needs to choose to drop everything because its the right thing to do, not just out of fear. I am afraid that if she doesn't get "well", she will pull the same stuff once she finds a new OM. She needs to come back down to earth before you can rebuild your M to a healthy place.
And yes, there is something about the holidays. Someone very close to me began rethinking the H she left, admittedly because the holidays does that to her. I told her unless she is serious and this will extend past the holidays not to comfort yourself with him, because it is truly not fair to him.
You are worth more than holiday lonliness. You deserve to have someone who wants ALL of you, not bits and pieces.
Butterfly, Irish. Job and Ginger,
Thanks for being a voice of reason. No, she is not ready to R. And I hadn’t considered the holiday effect on her. I just sense things shifting and not sure how to handle it. Not believing what she says but here are the observations from the last two weeks:
No overnight outings
No child outings with OM2
Refusing to sign the D papers
Asking us to move back in together
Asking me to talk and spend time with her
One of you asked how long could I keep this up because she could keep this up for a long time. That’s a really good question and I’m struggling with how to answer it.
Several of you pointed out that she’s trying to reel me back in. Yes, she has her hook firmly planted in my mouth and is pulling. Artista and Sandi2 both pointed to a phase where they were still involved with their OM at some level but also playing their Hs. Sadly, I think this is where I am.
Some days I want to rip my hair out and scream “I can’t live like this anymore!” Other days I am too busy with my own life to bother with her shenanigans—those are the days I have some semblance of peace.
Scheduled another coaching session to get some additional advice.
Thanks to all for being so supportive.
Gordie
Just catching up a bit and could not agree more with Irish and Job. You know I had a bit where the MLCr was done with OM and we moved back in together. I did not give her time to get over that relationship ... she basically grabbed a vine and as she swung from my tree to his, she eventually swung back to his again ..... during replay that long term relationship is no match for the drug rush feelz they experience in hindsight even if it was not OM she pursued I have little doubt it would have been an OM2. Just to add to what Job and Irish said .. not only do you have to allow her to get OM2 out of the system ... she also has to come to terms with herself and what put her on this path ... this was something I thought mine was working on but the work takes a good deal of effort and commitment and I do not think she could do this while spending energy trying to fix the marriage she tossed so back in the tunnel she went.
I did the pick me dance for about 2 years then as I grew and changed I realized I deserved better. to touch on your statement
If you can’t decide between me and OM2, then please let me go. Months ago, you asked me to let you go and I did. Now I ask the same of you. Sign the divorce papers and let me go. I deserve to pursue my own happiness just as much as you are and I can’t move on/out until we D.
Its words vs actions ... her actions must match the words. For me I basically understood she would never admit she had chosen OM over me ... deep down even in the fog they know they are making a huge mistake but can not help but see where it may lead feeling we will be just where they left us. Her actions told me all I needed to know ... and in my mind till she actually showed me she wanted to roll up the sleeves and work on herself then possibly the marriage I had to make the choice of what I would and would not tolerate. This was when I did a good deal of list writing and boundary work.
Cali,
You are so right and it was confirmed again tonight. I am a safe backup plan for her. It is soul crushing. I am leaving to pickup kid from practice and in drives OM2 into the driveway with stbx in the passenger seat. I have got to find a way out of this mess. I can’t do this any more. She is going to try and chat me up and I am going to say. Please do not talk to me.
Gordie, how long are you going to wait for the agreement? It isn't forthcoming any more than mine is. You obviously have to make the decision, but in view of her behavior and your pain, it seems that it would be best to push hard on the divorce or just go ahead and move out. Either way, this chick is going to get a good message (not that you should want her to come back for that reason).
Remember in my case, my lawyer advises against D period. I get a s$it ton of financial support every month, I don't live with him, he infrequently messes with me, and my children spend virtually no time with him. All of these things would be worse for me in a divorce. Your situation is very different.
Please read my long post this evening on our perception vs. their reality. I think it will be eye-opening for you.
Team Gordie all the way!!!
I don't have time to reply Gordie, but you are in good hands and doing very good.
Best wishes.
Use the anger you felt when they appeared in your driveway to move forward on your own. That has to be your focus and aim for now
Own it,
You are right. I asked L about moving out again. He had previously advised against it. This time because it’s been 9 months since filing and we are still negotiating, he said I am free to leave.
Okay, ball back in my court. Do I leave ASAP before Christmas, sign something for January, or wait longer until the D is finalized (thought that would have been done by now, but she is dragging it out).
Do I tell her that I am moving out or do I just do it?
Am I making an emotional decision based upon recent events?
Reasons to move ASAP:
Immediate emotional relief
Less stressful Christmas break (can’t wait to have my own space)
Let her go/drop the rope
In house separation rarely leads to R
Reasons to wait:
Avoid bad Christmas memories of dad moving out for the kids
Wait for my emotions to calm down
Give her more time and space (in house)
Cake feeding to an extent has been good for my D negotiation
***
On another note, stbx asked me to feed her a huge slice of cake and I declined. She asked me why and I said because you fired me as your H! This got a really awkward look.
And Cali is right, the words need to match the actions. All the ILY and I miss you and maybe we can work this out mean nothing while she is with OM2. I have to stop letting her manipulate me.
Do no move out. Some courts will view it as abandonment. At least get a legal advice before any move is attempted.
A lot of that is urban legend. Courts don’t want quarreling spouses, particularly with children, to remain living together and therefore do not financially punish people for doing so. It may indicate that she is the one who should remain in the house long-term, but Gordie has said many times he does not want the house. Gordie indicates above that his lawyer blesses him leaving. He will still be entitled to his equity position, whatever that is.
You may want to consider an ultimatum here since you are willing to carry it through. Such as, sign the docs by Friday or I move forward with the divorce/move-out ASAP, whatever.
I’d weigh your mental health and the older kids’ awareness of what is going on vs how much worse you think it will get as the holidays near. At the end of the day, the kids needn’t one sane, well-functioning parent.
My 2 cents - and considering the exchange rate posted this morning - might not be worth much.
Do I tell her that I am moving out or do I just do it?
No advance notice to her - That's just a recipe to up the drama.
Am I making an emotional decision based upon recent events?
The decision was made some time ago - it's now just a question of timing.
Now with that all said - the actual physical logistics of moving are a challenge that you might not be able to achieve between now and the New Year. You seem like a capable, planning type of guy but do you actually have all of the pieces in place to make this happen in a short period of time? I suspect that the answer is no.
Even though you don't specifically fall into that category, I would suggest you read up on some of the resources available to people in abusive relationships that advise them on how to plan and execute a move on the quiet. A key thing is making sure you have copies of all important documents in a secure location. Important heirlooms need to be protected. You'll need a crew of guys and trucks that can make things happen quickly without a fuss. You'll want to be sure to catalogue each and every item you take and any of the valuable ones you leave behind.
An important question I was thinking on earlier for you and it relates to the timing. What about the kids? In a typical move of this sort, the leaving spouse takes the kids with them.
To quote a line from one of my most favourite movies - Amazing Grace starring Ioan Gruffudd - "You've got work to do".
Gordie, my sitch was way different. The night my ex dropped the bomb out of the blue, he was prepared to leave for his sister's house that night and leave me home, in shock with a 6 month old baby. Instead, I did what any grown 27 year old would do and called her daddy:) He came from NY to pick me us up and I lived there for 2 months until I could get myself straight. I never had an in-house separation, and for those who survive it, I commend you greatly. I moved back in the house, and he moved out and I asked him to watch our daughter in our home instead of carting her everywhere. I worked nightshift, so I would come home between shifts on a Saturday and just sleep before going back to work, and he didn't even want to do that.
Anyways, I understand you needing to get out. I am glad your lawyer said you could move out. I want you to take a breath and realize that you do indeed have a way out. You are not trapped in this situation. Whether you do it before or after the holidays, you are getting out!!!! Work out the logistic and see when is best for you and the kids. You'll need time to find a place and move and the such, but do the happy dance, because IT WILL HAPPEN. Sometimes just knowing we are getting out keeps the fuel in our tank.
Gordie
You can get through this. Regardless of what way you decide to play it. Remember that. If ye need to share the house a little longer. You can do it. It isn'teasy but you have grown and are capable of much more than you think, even though you likely don't feel that way.
I agree with vapo and others . I would advise you not to move out and definitely not to pre discuss it with W.
If you feel that you really cannot do this any longer (again I counter that you could..) and you want to push things forward, I would tell W she has to find alternative accommodation until your agreement is signed. Heck you could just kick her out after coming home with OM. This is probably contrary to DB so maybe wait for your coach. But this approach makes everything that bit realer for her and not in a way she would like.
. Two things. Firstly you did not bring about this situation.ye would not be in this situation now if W hadn't gone down the mlc om route nor if she had signed months ago when she asked for a D. The timing isn't on you.
Secondly I can understand you not wishing to upset Christmas for the family. Maybe W is counting on that!! You know best for your children.Protect them, but be sureyour decision is about that. Sometimes we can think we do something for the kids sake but deeper reasons are really the root. Maybe a strong stance to W now, could cause a less than ideal Christmas this year, but that could be what is required to be reconciled for next year and after....
Ultimately I know you can hold it together and get through this. Four Christmases ago I realised my W and M were in crisis. I was convinced it was about to end. The next one I got through it for the kids. Last year too I decided they would have at least this one last Christmas as a family.NNow I am heading into my fourth!! Not to get sidetracked but I an just saying we have no idea how long this situation will last nor do we know how much we are capable of withstanding. More than we initially imagined though.
Best wishes.
Regardless of how things turn out, I believe that a break from each other is undeniably the best thing you can do for yourself and ultimately to enhance your chances of reconciliation. But reconciliation should only happen when you have put reconciliation out of your thoughts. Put it away in a box firvsave keeping and go thrive for YOU
Hi Gordie, I think moving out this side of Xmas may not be the best plan. But to start viewing places and sign up for a new year move would be perfectly possible I think if that's what you want to do?
I would only let your W know once you have your plans confirmed - W, I've taken out a lease on a new place, starting from 10th January..
JMHO of course, but from all that you post and your W's blatant ongoing contact with OM and baiting of you, I think you may need to think about changing up the current situation.
Xx
Gordie
As with this place its opinions and advice from all of us with nothing more than wanting the best for you. All the questions you pose are easy for us to say do this or do that but in the end its you who has to really actually do it ... actions not words works on both sides of the street. You are really the only one who can honestly answer when you should do and how you should do it ... just keep in mind this is YOUR choice and in doing so its not to get a response nor reaction from her .... If moving out got the MLCr to wake up and come back to the M we all would have done so ... conversely if staying meant the same we all would have stayed.
My advice ... whatever you chose will not have an impact on changing her sitch .... it will change yours and only you will know if its for the best or not. Just do it, no words or grand announcements ... lead by actions not words. When I left after the touch and go there was no doubt, it was funny as she approached me about 2-3 days after I discovered the BD2 text message wanting to figure out the bills in March .... I gave her a simple shrug and told her that was no longer my concern as I would be out by the weekend. Silence and a blank stare followed and to this day I do not think she actually believed I would walk. I did and I do not regret it a bit.
If you are concerned about the kids and the Christmas memories .... they already have memories of mom bringing the boyfreind around during this time of year ... you leaving will just be a part of that but in no way should you feel guilty ... this was not what you wanted nor your choice. I think often to many times the LBS hands around 'for the kids' expecting the medal of valor when if we look deep down we are just looking for an excuse to stay hoping this storm passes and we can salvage the M .... there are times we must protect ourselves from what they are doing to us.
Time wise may not be the right time to go ... I personally would take the next 2 weeks and quietly plan and arrange to start my new life with 2018 and stealthily be out by then.
Hi Gordie,
Just came across this.
You are one tough cookie (!) to have handled a looming-over your=head D with W the way you did.
I have mixed feelings re: before/after Christmas - but then again its rarely a 'real' christmas with mlc spouses anyway.
Follow your gut - I think it is guiding you very, very well!
Best
Team Gordie!
I like the sound of that. Thank you guys for standing by me and offering your advice. It really helps to hear unbiased opinions even when I disagree with them.
Cali—yes, it’s ultimately my choice. I get that.
Ginger, you are invaluable—you are right that it is freeing to know I am not powerless and that I can be free of my situation when I choose. Andrew, I agree that advance notice may not serve me well.
Own, I liked your suggestion about an ultimatum but am still noodling on what I would actually say.
Andrew, agree that telegraphing in advance may not help.
***
Journaling:
Okay, tonight something happened that I wasn’t planning. Maybe not d b but it happened. Stbx begged for sex and I rejected her. This led to an actual shouting match (we are not shouters). Summary:
She kept yelling that she loves me. I kept yelling stop saying that. Your actions speak louder than words and your actions demonstrate that you do not love me. I refuse to be in a three way R with you and OM2. I asked her to sign the D and just let me go. And she said, I can’t let you go. That’s why I’m so confused. I said I refuse to be plan b, the backup plan, the safety net if things don’t work out with OM2. She says she wishes she never met OM1 or OM2. I say you made a choice to open your heart to them. It was your choice. She says I was unhappy in our M too. And I say yes, but I didn’t seek fulfullment outside the M and you did. You rejected me and I no longer want to be in a R with you. You are seeking your happiness elsewhere. I deserve to do that too. If we aren’t sexually compatible would you be willing to stay M in a sexless M? I flat out say no. I want a M partner who desires all of me, including sexually. I don’t want to be your asexual BFF.
Roist,
I also agree i could last longer if I choose to do so. Thanks for the pep talk.
Standing here on the outside I'm hearing a lot of anger on your side bubbling away. I really don't blame you - she is cake-eating so much she should be a diabetic. Having said that, did she say anything at all positive about ditching OM and trying to work things out? Or were you too angry for her to even chance going there?
Obviously we're seeing the classic MLC script where she's moving towards you now because she has sensed that you want to move on now. Clearly too, you shouldn't be making any big decisions whilst hurt and anger are still able to warp your perceptions. Tonight I imagine will be a sleepless one for you - there is a lot to process there, including what the children will make of it all. Do you think they heard any of the shouting?
Angry? Yes and I let it out. No, she did not talk about ditching OM2. Working things out? She said she didn’t know if we could work things out now. She was still blaming me for our situation and what I did or didn’t do. She took no responsibility for her own actions. This was late at night and all the kids were sleeping. I don’t know what they heard. Sleepless? Yes.
Gordie,
I agree w/devvo...you do not want to make any decisions while you are angry and hurt. Decisions should be made when you are in a calmer place. She wants her cake and eat it too. She senses that you are pulling away and are seriously wanting a divorce to move on w/your life and hopefully meet someone new. She is really one confused woman and I really do feel sorry for where she's at in her head. It really isn't a pretty place.
Let me say this...ultimatums are something we do not encourage here. Why? Because crisis people will take the easiest way out and if that means either working on the marriage and dropping the other person or coming home and doing the hard work, they will choose the first option because they aren't ready to do the hard work. I do not think that your wife is fully baked at this time. I think she is in panic mode over the fact that her comfortable world is about to be rocked very hard and she's definitely not sure of what she wants at this time.
You may opt to have a sit down talk w/her and map out what you would like from your current marriage and she may say she will do this to get things back on track...but if she's not fully baked, she may revert back to her mlcing ways in time.
Gordie, trust your gut and do what is right for you and your family. You will know what you need to do once you've settled down emotionally. The paperwork doesn't need to be rushed through the system before Christmas...it could wait until after the holidays when everyone is back to the real world of living and not the fun, family times of the holidays.
Gordie, whatever you decide to do, we will be here to support you.
To be clear, my suggestion of an ultimatum related only to the signing of the D papers and only if Gordie is prepared to see it through. I agree, an ultimatum for her to change would not work.
Sheesh! What is she? Three years old? You may recall the Latin phrase "in vino veritas" - I think that in anger that certain truths are also said. Sometimes they are also ones that we wish we could take back. In her case, she's told you that she's not going to sign anything and she's not going to let you go of her free will.
I do worry that if she were to up the battle that she might try to weaponize the kids. She is being selfish and doesn't have the same sort of support structure around her that you do that says that is a truly bad idea.
I think you should start working under the assumption that she's not going to sign any darned thing any time soon and you need to do what is best for you and your children. What that may be, I don't know.
At one time I had a vision of dropping all of my STBX's stuff off in OM's driveway with divorce papers on top of it and a note "She's your problem now"
Hi Gordie,
Wow. I'm sorry that happened. My first thought was about this kids, what did they hear, if anything and what did they make of it.
I think that if there's any way you could carve out quiet time and space from her over the next day or so, that would be good. I didn't see it as issuing an ultimatum. I saw it as you are done, period, end of story and this is your hard boundary. Hey, sorry if this isn't DB friendly but we all have limits and boundaries and enough is enough. You'll know when the line is crossed.
What she does with this boundary matters far less than what you will do with it, frankly. I get that you needed to draw the line in the sand, with no room for misinterpretation. If there is a concern about 2018 tax issues which could adversely affect your agreement, do all you can to sign now. Protect yourself, your kids, your assets. As Kml has said to others, you can always re-marry later. Good, pragmatic advice.
Hang in there. Do not act from a place of emotion. xoxoxoxo
Gordie,
That was so DB! I am so incredibly proud of you, not feeding her cake! You have been calm and cool as a cucumber and you have emotion and you needed to shout this at her. What you said was all extremely reasonable. She is having a tantrum when she isn't getting what she wants, yet she is not willing to put the work in. She is being a big baby. Let her be. Just like we show our kids, certain actions have consequences.
I'm proud of ya. I have been proud of you all along, you really are good at this. But I know you had some emotion that needed to get out, some anger, and I think you did it in the best conceivable way!
You're my hero, actually.
Job—you are right. Not making any decisions while angry and hurt and emotional. Yes, I’m going to take my time and cool down. And yes, she’s still cooking. Re ultimatums, I get what you are saying and no, don’t think she’d respond well. Re mapping out what it would take to work things out, that did come up last night. I said step one is to choose me and forsake all others (those pesky marriage vows). I will not remain M to you if you are pursuing other men. I said then we would need to work on our individual issues and our M issues, including the sexual ones. But having this conversation in a shouting match in the wee hours of the morning was probably not effective.
Re the sexual ones, I’m not talking about anything crazy here. We usually had sex a few times a week for 20+ years and it became boring and routine. I didn’t complain. She didn’t complain. We didn’t discuss and we didn’t work on it. Then at BD it was I can’t do this any more. I want passion = I want sex with OM1. Recently, this has been her big issue. What if we aren’t sexually compatible? I think she wants me to have sex with her to see what it feels like compared to OM2. No, I will not do that.
Ownit—I understand. I did say something along those lines last night. Even if you don’t sign the D papers, I’m still planning to move out. It wasn’t an ultimatum but I was very clear.
AndrewP—I don’t think she’s going to weaponize the kids but I made it crystal clear how wrong I thought it was for her to be taking our kids out with OM2. And yes, I think our are right in that she’s not planning to sign. Sigh.
Butterfly—thank you. In hindsight, I’m actually glad it happened. No, I don’t like to shout but there is a time and a place for it and I think I handled myself as well as possible under the circumstances. And yes, I’ve gotta cool off before making any decisions.
Ginger—you are so awesome! You have such a good handle on how I think and feel. Are you my guardian angel? And yes, she is acting like a big baby right now and the cake shop is closed. You guys warned me things may get worse before they get better and here we are.
***
Journaling:
So stbx came to my room in the morning while I was still sleeping and came to hug me. I wake up and she says thank you for talking to me last night. You have been so distant. I love you. I say: I don’t know what to say to you.
Gordie,
She is something else! To come into your room this morning after that discussion last night, hug you and say I love you, just confirms to me that she's a mess and either isn't listening to what you said or she thinks you are bluffing and won't file. She doesn't realize that it only takes one to set the divorce in motion and go from there.
If you can control your emotions and not allow the situation to get you to the point of shouting, you might, and I mean might, be able to get her to "hear you" better if you can go somewhere quiet and talk to her in a calm, even tone...but this woman isn't ready to give up on you or her fun side. But...I do think you've been more than honest and fair with her all along. Now, you have to put your focus on you and your children and what you need to do to find that inner peace and be able to move forward. People say all of the time that the divorce decree is nothing more than a piece of paper and that is so true...but the bottom line is this...it may be a piece of paper, but time can and will change things including how we view our spouses and while they are circling the earth, we may discover that we don't like the people that they've turned into and may find someone new who is more apt to be better companions to us. Time will tell...but Gordie, you do what you must to keep your sanity.
You've stated quite firmly what you will and will not tolerate, time will tell if any of that conversation has sunk in. In the meantime...continue to move forward...you've got a lot of life to live and whether she wakes up, wants to reconcile or you want to move on completely...the final decision will be all yours.
Gordie,
I have no advice to offer but to say that your strength gives me strength. I know this is excruciating to live through, but in reading through it, it sounds like you know what you are doing and are doing it well...even if it doesn't feel like it from the inside looking out.
I'd like to join the ranks of team Gordie. GO TEAM GORDIE!!
TEAM GORDIE FOR SURE!!!
Gordie, stay strong my friend. I can't offer any advice due to the fact that you seem to be doing much better than I would at that point. You have worked on yourself hard over the last several months and it shows. You are an inspiration.
I hope you and your kids have a blessed Christmas.
wow. coming in first thing in the morning huh? she is really pushing ... we may all need to pitch in and send you a chastity belt to protect your virtue!!
Good for you, Team Gordie 1000% xoxoxoxo
I'll chip in £10 Bttrfly
Gordie, from all that you post, I see you gathering strength and functioning with self-control. That's progress. After BD, we are so desperate we'd do pretty much anything to get things back on track. But I think you have got to a place where you accept this could go either way and you aren't willing to enter into the kind of arrangement on offer.
I also see your W starting to think - oh boy, I may actually have gone to far here and I may actually get what I thought I wanted - and now I'm not that sure what I want. Really I wanted it all and Gordie isn't falling in with that plan - arghh...
So, she is stepping up and trying to reel you in. My guess would be if she reeled you in at this stage, and she felt reassured, she would lose interest. And you would have a rollercoaster ride. From what I have read, the WAS needs to have a pretty seismic and fundamental realisation that pretty much brings them to their knees before a potentially sustainable reconciliation is really possible.
From what you post, your W isn't in that place at all - there is much more an air of entitlement about her. She wants X and Y and is put out that things aren't going to unfold that way.
So, I guess I'm saying that whilst you may worry about pulling further away. This is actually the path to a sustainable reconciliation - which may or may not happen, we just don't know.
Stay strong in any case my friend...xx
Thank you Gordie, I stick around after all these years hoping I can help someone. I feel like I have seen so much on these boards and I am almost always right on how these things play out.
Truth be told, I have a soft spot for you, Gordie! I have a real soft spot on these boards for stand-up guys being treated like sh!t or toys, or even options. Probably because all I wanted in life was a decent husband and great father to my kids. I can not for the life of me figure out why someone in their right mind would give that up for a thrill. (it's probably because they aren't in their right mind) I may think differently because my longest R was 9 years and that was with my exH and since the separation, I have dated, but my longest R has been 6 months. But the way I look at it now, stability, understanding, honesty, and love IS the thrill for me! but I digress, enough about me.
I really think we should get Team Gordie shirts made! I know this is an awful time of the year and I know many would have caved to their WAS saying "ILY" and trying to have sex with them, and YOU DIDN'T!!!! That is super hero status. You didn't because you don't want it. You don't want to feel used. Because you know you are the ONLY choice, and not an option.
You resolve is because of the man you are becoming and the DBing work you have done. YOu value yourself. It's a wonderful thing.
So with the exchange rate it seems we have $30 or so in the “team Gordie” chastity belt go fund me... anyone else ready to chip in? I’ve checked - we can personalize it with the following message for a mere $10:
“Team Gordie: All or Nothing!”
I don't think he needs one. DB boundaries are enough!!
Go team gordie
Best wishes
Woah, Gordie! First thing in the morning? That took some thought, on her part. Not impulsive; so not from the heart, but from the brain. That's kind of scary. She really seems very serious about picking the lock to the cake shop. What's next? Breaking the window?
I admire your strength and resolve. Been following along. Really not sure what to think or say other than I'll send good thoughts for added strength and fortification of your boundaries. Maybe a lock on your (yes, "your") bedroom door? That would send a message, for sure.
So, sending good thoughts...on their way.
Love it Cil... lock that door brother!!!
Gordie,
Trying to get caught up on some special friends' situations. It's a LOT of reading. LOL.
Just wanted to say I'm at the front and center of TEAM GORDIE.
Team Gordie! You guys are the best. As y'all know, this is a lonely road, but I feel like I have such a great support group in all of you.
Job: to clarify, she filed on me this spring...but then hasn't followed through...and now won't sign the papers. Confusing and messy? Absolutely. Re talking in a quiet and calm place...maybe, but have tried that in the past but hasn't worked...but haven't tried in a while, so maybe worth another try?
Sjohn6/SBJ: an inspiration? Heck, I feel like I'm floundering, but glad I can be an inspiration to someone...I know I have gotten so much of that inspiration from all of you guys--especially you SBJ--so glad I can return the favor.
Bttrfly/Sotto: chastity belt? My goodness, do you know how sexually frustrated I am? Ha, ha, ha...yeah, I know it was just a joke...and it brought a smile to my face...thank you, ladies!
Roist/ciluzen/leahsue: thank you...didn't think about putting a lock on the door, but the little kids often come to my room for comfort in the night, so will probably pass on that idea, but I get your point. Trying to unlock the cake shop? You bet she's trying, but no, it's closed for business.
***
Journaling:
So since our big blow up, not much has happened. I do not initiate contact with her and she continues to initiate contact with me. I have made myself scarce and generally unavailable. When I do see her, I am friendly like a neighbor. I do not touch her, but she increasingly tries to touch me. She did not go out this week at all in the evening and no overnights. No idea what this means re her R with OM2, but it is a change.
I had a follow-up call with my DB coach to ask for advice to see what I should do from here, so here are some of my notes that I hope can help others in similar situations. Of course, I shared with the coach more details than I can write here, but hopefully you can still follow along:
Coach: It's been almost three months of LRT. Are things getting better, worse, or the same?
G: Well, over the past three months, she has spent more time with OM2 than ever before. However, she has gone from screen saver enthusiast, introducing the kids, and planning their wedding to refusing to sign the D papers. In the past two weeks, she has given me the "I don't know what I want" and "I'm sorry for everything" and "I do love you" and "sleep with me."
Coach: What happened when you were angry with her and screaming at each other? Did it make things better, worse, or the same?
G: She said she wished I had expressed myself earlier. I was so detached she didn't think I cared. She wanted to have sex with me. Make up sex has always important to her, but I rejected her. What do I do with all of her questions about us being sexually incompatible?
Coach: You know she was attracted to your passion? Your anger and emotion was sexually attractive to her. Make up sex is great because your emotions are in over drive. And the fact that you rejected her only made you more desirable.
I think you can answer her directly/succinctly and tell her what you told me, that you also wonder if you are sexually compatible. Tell her, yes, our sex life would have to be very different; there would have to be a lot of changes. End it there. Don't get into specifics.
Q. Do you think I should stay in the house or move out? L said it is okay for me to move out.
Coach: Only you can answer that. Don't make any emotional decisions. If you are unsure and want to say something, you can say "I don't know how much longer I can live with you like this."
What did you tell her when she asked if you guys could work things out?
G: I said I won't be plan b. I want to be in a R with a woman who "forsakes all others"...for whom I am the only choice. Yes, I do think we could work things out if we both wanted that, but it would take a lot of work.
So do you think I should be changing tactics at this stage?
Coach: No, it sounds like what you are doing is making things better, so you should keep doing that.
Gordie:
Through this questioning I see someone who is thinking about staying in the status quo. I guess I question how that will work. That will look to her like you are safely where you are supposed to be (not pushing divorce, not moving out) and she will feel safer to go back to the thrill of the OM.
I think I'm uniquely qualified to tell you this. I do not believe she will ever sign the divorce papers. My H is passive aggressive and has never been much of a talker, so I don't hear him voice the confusion and uncertainty, but his actions speak volumes. I think he is very content with the status quo because he feels like we are on the shelf, life isn't too scary, and he can do what he wants. I have been too accommodating in allowing him to feel this and it is about to get very real for him in a very big way within the next 3 weeks.
Only you can decide what you do. Don't make fear-based decisions. Respond, do not react. Don't do things because you feel pressure from ANYONE to do them.
Just be 100% honest with yourself about where you are right now and how you feel about it. If you can find a way to live with it, do, because sometimes nothing is the best choice.
When the time is right, you will know it definitively.
If you do nothing else, keep this power you have taken back. Don't give it to her again. She respects the Gordie who stands up for himself. Ultimately you need her to respect you, but more importantly you need to respect yourself.
Just want you to know that I'm thinking of you.
Along the lines of what Ownit wrote, my concern is that as your w seems to be getting the jitters, sounds like she may be looking to settle things back to how they were prior to the filing.
Seems to me that was a nice spot for her: freedom/fun/newness with OM and meanwhile you there to hold down the fort and be there for her.
She is a massive cake eater. It reminds me of one of the characters on the Sopranos: Ginny. The woman was on a diet and when her h was in the room she weighed all her portions on a scale and followed an extreme diet. And yet no weight came off, on the contrary she was gaining! One day her h returned unexpectantly and yep, Ginny was shoveling tons of food into her face.
This, to me, is the life scenario to which your w wants to return.
Ownit and HaWho,
Thank you. I weigh your comments heavily because of your own experiences. Your words are sobering. In my heart, I am still hoping for the best, however unrealistic or out of reach it seems.
I’ve also been re reading some of sandi2’s comments and she talked about how she went through a phase like my stbx is doing to me now. Acting all friendly and not running wild but still not in her heart taking responsibility for what she had done and not yet ready to recommit.
Here’s the truth: I have no idea what I should be doing right now. None. Sometimes I say to myself, get out of here! Other times, I say I am stronger than this and I can wait it out.
And yes, she may NEVER sign. And then where does that leave me?
I called about an apartment I want and it’s not available until the new year so I decided to hold off on making a decision. Christmas is next week and logistically can’t move this week, as Andrew pointed out previously.
So I guess I’m still turning things over in my heart and in my head and trying not to make any emotion or fear driven decisions.
***
Journaling
Stbx’s actions since our big argument:
No evenings or overnights away from home
No mention of OM2 and screensaver changed
Re engaged with disciplining the kids
Has tried to talk to me more and initiate non sexual touch
Joined the family at church for the first time in many months
No R talks
***
For those who celebrate: Merry Christmas! Trying really hard to remember all of the reasons we celebrate.
hang in there Gordie. xxoxooox
Just want to say thanks for stopping in on my thread. I haven't caught up entirely on your whole stitch but I have read everything to date in this latest thread. all I can say is "WOW". Your W seems really intent on trying to keep you attached. I see so many similarities between your W and mine. I wish I handled myself as noble as you did. You do seem to be on the right path and she is noticing you are not a back up anymore. I pray you find peace in the new year. Aside from the craziness, try and enjoy the holidays with your family. Merry Christmas.
SBJ, Butterfly, Pew,
Thank you for your well wishes and hope you have a great Christmas week.
Journaling:
Well, she has been pursuing me for the last week and I have been friendly but not all that responsive. In the last 24 hours, she is now switching to distancing. No more initiating communication and no more physical touching. Now that I have lived this pattern for a while, I still get the urge to pursue when she distances. Alas, I am tired of the game so am doing my best to just be me.
I am not making any decisions about moving out or anything today. It’s the week before Christmas and the kids are pumped up and so am trying my best to fake it even if I don’t feel so merry inside. One Christmas gift: my little guy has been writing me ILY notes and giving them to me. He is such a sweetie.
I thought last Christmas was our last one, but here we are again. Stbx said by this Christmas OM1 would be with us to open presents. Like HaWho, I don’t think she even remembers the crazy stuff she has said. I wish I could forget.
Gordie,
I am so sorry that she's still acting out. She's playing the distance/pursuit game w/you. Some of them even go one step further being nice for a while and then turning nasty...all in the name of hooking you back into their circle. I think you've got the right idea of just being yourself. I'm sure you are getting more than tired of the games because when you have one living under your roof, you can't get away from them and their antics...it's right in your face 24/7. Please try to get out of the house a bit this holiday season even if it's just to go to the coffee shop or take a walk or a drive. You need a break every once in a while.
Bless your little one's heart. He senses that things aren't right and those notes are his way of trying to cheer you up. Give him an extra big hug today.
W said by this Christmas OM1 would be with us to open presents..
I've heard some good ones on the board and in my own life but this comment takes 1st prize! Only a MLC mind would think this is just fine.
Soon after BD when I was emotionally destroyed and nothing more than a pathetic puddle on the floor, my H suggested that when I found a new love interest we could could double date. Just crazy.
Gordie, I've followed your thread for awhile and I have to say you have become quite the role model for me. The way you handle yourself while your W is still under the same roof is an inspiration to me. I hope to get there one day myself and reading your posts is really helping me with that. Thank you!
Gordie, i' m so sorry!! Speechless!!
One thing my mlcer shared with me (and it might shed some light to you) was the " i love you but i' m not in love with you..
I know i care about you... you are my best friend.. i do love you... i think i love you but not in that way..more like a sister. I would still die for you.. blah blah blah..
They are confused and constantly change their mind on the role you play in their life. From lover to friend to the one to blame.. it' s insanity!!
I refuse to play the game. My ex-h is the father of my kids and was my life partner.
By leaving me and the children, i do not see him as a lover, brother, friend.. heck, i am not a masochist.. a barely see him as a dad. Our children are not a priority to him.
Take a few step back.. make it clear to her of the role you have in her life and let her figure it out. But keep in mind that she will change her mind often. Atick to your role.
Stay strong and make this Christmas about seeing the spark and excitement in your kid's eyes. Put her aside for awhile. You need to refuel!
Job, Galpal, Exquisite,
Thank you ladies for your support. Yes, she is still really confused. Crazy how she thinks she can have me an OM1 and when that didn’t work out OM2.
Journaling:
Well, stbx didn’t show for the last big kid event. Tonight she asked if she could come with me and the kids. She is acting all normal and like we are still a couple with the other parents. Wedding rings on. I keep my physical and emotional distance.
I am pretty sure affair with OM2 is still going on, but she’s no longer out in the open about it, so not 100% sure. I assume she would tell me if she broke up with him, but then again she never told me about the breakup with OM1.
At last conversation she said she was confused and didn’t know what she wanted. As many of you have pointed out, I think she’s trying to keep both of us in the picture while she decides.
I continue to flip flop in my heart on what to do. I am tempted to ask her what she is thinking and feeling since our last talk but not sure that would be productive. She says she wants me to fight for her...but what does that mean in this context...when she also asked me to let her go?
DB coach said it’s a fantasy for some women to have two men fighting over her. They love the attention and passion.
Sometimes I feel sorry for her and her confusion and want to stand forever—that I meant my vows, for better or worse. Other times I feel like she is manipulating me and want to cut her out of my life—she has chosen to pursue other men and is no longer deserving of my love. I am confused too.
Gordie,
I would much rather have the man that I love "fight" for me by being committed to me, our relationship and our family.
I hope your W comes to her senses soon. From what I have read in your posts it sounds like she has a man fighting for her......not just her attention in some immature fantasy.
Stay strong!
Hunny
She wants you to fight for her?! That is exactly what you have been doing. You have been fighting for your M with dignity. But a woman who wants her husband and the father of her kids to "compete" with her affair partner is messed up.
Gordie, she should be fighting for you now. You are worth fighting for too.
H and Ginger,
Yeah, it’s messed up. I am not a violent person but she has asked me why I have not confronted her AP. I said i would seriously hurt him and I wasn’t joking. The last thing I need in my life is an assault charge.
I have been in one fight in my life and my sparring partner seriously regretted picking a fight with me. I’m not going there. But yes, I think it may be part of her fantasy that we will physically fight over her.
It’s part of the reason why I thought it was insane when she wanted to introduce him to me and we would all be friends.
So looking for a reality check. So this whole fighting for her business is bugging me. Once, before b d, we were out with other couples. One of my friends has too much to drink and is flirting with my w (no touching) in front of everyone. She asked me the next day the same thing—why didn’t you fight for me? I said x is a flirt and I didn’t think anything weird was happening. And if something was, did you want me to pick a fight with x? She says never mind and I don’t get it. I look back and wish I would have asked more questions and understood better why she was so agitated.
Gord, we are alike...we are lovers not fighters. haha!
They definitely have this fantasy built up somewhere in their mind. It's almost like they are waiting on Mr. Roarke and Tattoo to come out and show them to their bungalows for their fantasy life to begin.
There is nothing wrong with standing and I think that each of us have different ideas of what that means, but first we have to stand up for ourselves. Continue to make progress on us and for us. Like you, I took my vows before God seriously and I assumed that she did too, but somewhere down the line she watched too many Lifetime movies and read too many romance novels and fell off the deep end. (That was an attempt at sarcasm.)
They are sick...not with something that an antibiotic can help. Only time can take care of this one.
Head over to my thread and read my short update of weird. It isn't what you are going thru, but it shows how off base they can be.
Stay strong my brother!
Gordie - I've done a lot of reading and the "fight for me" is a common theme in some cases.
The explanation that I've read is that it's not about the fighting or the disrespect, it's about them. They are the central figure in their own theatrical production and it's frustrating and annoying to them when we bit part players don't follow their script. Each bit of attention they get validates their opinion that they are important and reinforces their actions.
It's a variation on the theme of distancer / pursuit and the whole idea behind the 180 which upset that dynamic in my opinion.
Why fight for someone else's girlfriend?
All that she says indicates massive confusion - fight for me - let me go!
This is exactly why the rules say don't believe anything they say - for if you believed both statements above where does that leave you?
Just let it go and keep moving forward Gordie...
Xx
Yep, this massive confusion is what makes this so different from a spouse who just wants to be done with marriage. I have noticed a lot of MLCers need to feel desired. I noticed with my own h that his ego was bruised over aging. He's always been an attractive man and struggled with not looking 30 anymore.
Anyway, the only thing I might say is something like this: w, let me make sure I understand this. You want me to fight for you, yes? Wait for her to answer. Ask what fighting for her means. (Probably the deep root is she doesn't feel as hot anymore. Like Andrew said she wants everyone pining for her.) And then clarify: so you want me to fight for you while you sleep with another man? Then I would just listen.
The key is to be quiet and detached but look her in the eye. The only reason I would consider saying something is that they do remember the way they were treated. And she very well may remember this conversation and then in hindsight (a year or so from now) see it a touch differently. If you say nothing she may always remember that she believed you didn't "fight" for her.
Then I would calmly say: "I am unclear on what you are doing to fight for me and this marriage." And walk out (of the house) calmly. Don't talk to her for more than 5 minutes. There is no point. Just get your point across and then go do something productive.
SBJ, Andrew, HaWho, Soto,
Thank you for your comments.
SBJ - Yes, I just don’t get why she is throwing me away and the family away...for this fantasy.
Andrew, I think you are right that she wants to be the center of the drama...and right now she is!
Sotto - Yes, I’m a fool for trying to think I can solve for two contradictory demands!
HaWho - I would like to ask those questions, but as you said, need to do so in a calm and detached manner, which today I cannot do.
Journaling:
So I am spinning today. Very clear evidence of activity with OM2 while I was away at work. I was angry but kept it under control. I just looked at stbx and firmly asked: when are you going to sign the papers? She said she is waiting for her L to make more adjustments.
All the ILY and can we work this out, as all of you have pointed out, they are just empty words of manipulation to keep me on the hook. While she continues her R with OM2, I am the fool asking if I can pretzel myself into her irrational demands.
I spent the evening with the kids and put myself to bed and...couldn’t sleep at all.
Having an issue with one of the teens and I had said that I thought the D was taking a toll on X. She said she asked X about it and the D is not affecting X at all. How can she say D has no affect on the kids?
I am so angry and sad and baffled...beyond words...and just exhausted.
I really don’t want to take her to court but if she refuses to sign, then I may have no choice.
Re the standers who can wait out their spouses affairs..:I thought I may be able to do that, but it is such a violation of my conscience. How do they actually do that? Why not just get the D? I believe a M can heal from infidelity, but maybe not mine.
Gordie - I think that they live in an alternate reality where everyone is happy for them and where there are no consequences for any of their actions. Dissenting voices are not heard, perhaps one of the reasons why my STBX doesn't appear to socialize with any of her old friends.
One bit of warning and perhaps something you can reasonably use as an "ultimatum". I checked and the US tax bill has passed. According to the article I just looked up "Alimony payments, which are codified in divorce agreements and go to the ex-spouse who earns less money, are no longer deductible for the person who writes the checks. This provision will apply to couples who sign divorce or separation paperwork after December 31, 2018"
So - if she doesn't sign in the next 9 days, all prior negotiations are out the window and you start from scratch. Or at least that is a reasonable point you can make.
Has your lawyer talked to her's? What is the actual state of affairs? We know that they lie / manipulate the truth to match whatever reality they may be passing through at that moment.
Stay strong. Team Gordie is here for you. Mind you, some of us will be sipping egg-nog but it is almost Christmas.
I'm sorry you had such a poor night Gordie. It is always horrible to come across evidence of OP activity - yuck - I've been there too and it is horrible.
However, it also tells you where your W is at right now - ILY, we can work this out - let's make love - fight for me....all whilst OM2 is somewhere in the mix. That's useful (if painful) intel and can put to bed any lingering thoughts of maybe OM2 is on the wane just now - in the longer term, who knows?
My guess is that this dynamic may carry on for a while yet and I think the important thing to ask yourself is this. What do I need to do to look after myself (and our children) in this situation? If you fundamentally accept the situation as it is right now, what is the right path for you to take for yourself?
And my last piece of advice today is not to do anything WRT her whilst you are feeling tired and upset. Restore yourself and find calm - and then decide what you want to do.
Big hugs and we are all here for you xx
No advice for you Gordie as you seem to be doing this as perfectly as human possible. Just one comment to Andrews post
This provision will apply to couples who sign divorce or separation paperwork after December 31, 2018"
So - if she doesn't sign in the next 9 days, all prior negotiations are out the window and you start from scratch.
Wouldn't that be in 12 months + 9 days?
Hmmmm - I'd been figuring it was 2017 all along. I just double-checked several sources and yep - it's not in effect for a year. When I copy/pasted I didn't notice the year - one of the reasons I don't put "attention to detail" on my resume
Older sources from early November had a 2017 date but the more recent news articles reference 2018. I specifically re-read the article from the Associated Press from this morning published in the New York Post (annoying sometimes about not being able to post links).
My dear Gordie. Even if OM was out of the picture, that woman has a lot of work to do. She is not well right now, and all her OM are symptoms of something bigger.
I agree w/Ginger concerning your wife and the work she needs to do. The OM may be out of the picture at the moment...but that doesn't mean it's over for them. She will need to go through withdrawal from that addictive euphoria she had w/him and that's hard work. She thinks that you can sweep everything under the rug and things can go back to normal...they can't until her issues are resolved and she's ready to do the hard, necessary work to rebuild her life w/you in a new marriage.
One thing...if you haven't already asked your lawyer this...be sure to ask him/her that if you have relations w/her does that create a problem, hence the clock has to be rewound for the time set for the divorce. If your lawyer says yes, then no relations w/this woman. (If you do opt to have relations, be sure to get yourself checked out because you don't know what little gifts she may have brought home that will keep on giving.)
I hope and pray that you can find a little peace this holiday and some answers will be revealed to you as to where your next chapter in your life's book will take you.
G,
I am curious what you think a D will accomplish? Not a d@mn thing. Do you think a divorce will liberate and free you in some way? No, it will not... You have to work on yourself, your hurt and feelings and you need time to heal. Lots of time...
However, it also tells you where your W is at right now - ILY, we can work this out - let's make love - fight for me....
She probably meant lets get it on... When one makes love, one has no desire to be with someone else...
Andrew,
Thank you and you are right. The teens are being more outwardly rebellious towards stbx. To me this is obviously about the D but she is in complete denial. I do not bad mouth stbx, but I do voice my values and beliefs: adultery is wrong and M vows are sacred. Re the tax change thank you for your concern but seems like I have 12 months to sign a deal.
Sotto,
That is the right q. What do I need to do to take care of myself and my children? I don’t know and when I think I know then I question myself again. If this was MLC without AP I think I could continue to live together but with OM2 in the picture, I think it is too distressing to me, at least it is right now. My L does talk to her L and all agree stbx is dragging her feet. And agree to not make decisions while upset. I was sorely tempted to engage her this morning but I did not.
Ginger,
You are right. I wish I was more detached so that her activities with OM2 did not bother me as much, but...it still make me nauseous. Dang, I thought I was doing better but feel like I’m back sliding.
Job,
We stopped relations when she started with OM2. That’s a boundary for me that I intend to keep. and yes, wouldn’t want to pickup any STDs. However, it does not affect our D proceedings in my state of both parties want it.
Vapo,
Great q! For me, actual D is closing a page on this chapter of my life. But maybe that’s all in my head and heart. I’ve been waiting for D before moving out and living likre a singe man/single dad. Given her (in)action, all of you will tell me to do that right now, right?
Gordie - The obvious answer to your question is that you have to do what you feel is best for yourself and the kids. I am surprised you've lasted as long as you have all things considered without blowing a gasket.
If I understand the situation correctly your lawyer has advised you that your case would not be hurt in any way by you moving out and that the decision has already been made that your W will be staying in the marital home with the kids.
Do you have segregated banking? If not, get that set up. Find out if you can set limits on her access to marital credit. One of the things that I did that I'm glad that I did was to get a separate line of credit with my bank but left everything else alone. In fact it was only a few weeks ago that I closed the old joint accounts.
I believe you've found an apartment you like. Well - sign the lease.
I think we all agree that she won't drive this bus and perhaps at least at present lacks the adulting skills necessary to move things along.
Theoretically you've got time between now and New Years to get everything put in place for an independent life. The legal stuff may have to wait.
You've known for a while that this day was coming but for reasons that we all perfectly understand have been reluctant to pull the trigger. I think that to save yourself, your sanity and to a degree your kids and your relationship with them, the time has come.
As far as the legal stuff is concerned, you have a draft agreement already essentially. Start abiding by it and I would think that the odds are pretty good that in going to court that the judge would rubber stamp it regardless of any objections from the other party.
Gordie:
You know that my heart breaks for you. This stuff is hard and we cycle. I'm feeling pretty good again so my lapse into petty drama was pretty short-lived. I'm gearing up for the holiday and the guest that D is bringing home from college (just a friend from South America who is displaced from the dorm).
I promise you that when you move out, you will feel better. It will help your detachment and you have lots of time to make your decisions. I personally, in following your story, would rather see you move out than push her divorce (except to the extent you need some financial protection from the spending and traveling that will come--mine is there now). That would give your feelings some time to settle and decide what you want for you.
I'm glad your kids are rebelling. I think it shows strength. I've always loved it when my D is sassy. I see a strong, confident girl, who will stand up to others as she does to me. Your wife's behavior is disgusting. Your older kids see that. You don't need to bad-mouth her, she is taking care of that all by herself and you are just the stable, supportive parent who is there for them in this drama.
Gordie
Catching up as I have not been in/on lately.
I feel like I am the Ghost of Christmas future in a few ways with our sitch, I will tell you what I recall feeling at the time so maybe in a way it can help you.
So looking ahead after you move out and get the D process going one would think there are levels of healing ... to a degree this is true, but before that happens the severity of it all will come at you pretty hard. The nights alone in the apartment without her and the kid(s) at first you have this sense of new and freedom, that fades then the 'this is now my life' seems to creep in. I flip flopped back and forth for some time ... excited to get my life in order and do ME things ... to wishing I was part of the family unit, the marriage the day to day.
As with anything it just takes time and you truly have to let go all control and allow her to her own course as you have a good deal of work to do just to regain your center. I can tell you I never wanted this but looking at the changes I was able to make and the life I am currently cutting out for myself I am at peace and happy ... There was a time I did not think this was possible.
Keep your chin up .. Happy Holidays.
Gordie,
I still haven't come back on here full on to catch up on everyone's sitch, but I wanted to say a big Merry Christmas, and that I hope this new year will bring peace, joy and contentment for all of us. I'll be back this next week. I'm going on an "underground" Christmas holiday, something I'm making up this year. More on my post.
Gordie,
Just wanted to pop by and wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and may the new year bring you some answers to your questions and yes, some inner peace along the way.
Merry Christmas!
Hi Gordie,
Everyone's weighed it. You're getting good advice. Don't act from emotion. Do the best thing for your children, and yourself. Give yourself time to figure out what that is.
Much love and Merry Christmas! xoxoxo
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Job, butterfly, Leah sue, Cali, Andrew, and ownit,
Thank you all for the well wishes. I wish I could give you all a big Christmas hug and shower you with gifts for in thanks for all you have given me.
Cali—thank you for that vision from a Christmas future. I do look forward to a better future at some point and accept that this will play out at its own pace.
Journaling:
We are playing family, some might say I have reopened the cake shop for Christmas. Family Christmas traditions, going to church together, etc. I don’t want to spoil Christmas for the kids.
Biggest change is teen d has found out more about what really happened and OM2 (not sure how) and doesn’t want to play family. She is no longer talking to stbx. I have talked to her a and let her cry in my arms. Stbx has asked me what she can do to comfort her and I just said I don’t know.
Have been busying myself out of the house with the kids and preparing for Christmas. I am going to see my extended family out of town after Christmas with the kids and without stbx. In the back of my mind I know this will just give her time with OM2 but there’s nothing I can do about that.
I am not expecting any presents this year so decided to do what I never do: I bought some presents for myself! I bought some new, flashier duds and have been getting lots of compliments. Honestly, I am not used to drawing attention to myself so this too is different and a little uncomfortable, but it’s also fun!
I have not made any decisions about what to do next. I am taking one day at a time. On the legal front, Ls are on vacation so nothing is going to happen until January.
I have been tempted to have R talk with stbx and ask: last time we spoke, you said you were undecided on what you want to do; have you decided? I have resisted the temptation because I know she is still in contact with OM2 even if it is less in my face than it was.
***
Merry Christmas to all of you who celebrate!
Merry Christmas Gordie! Resist!!! RESIST!!! What you've been doing is having some effect so do not backslide and ask what she's decided. That gives way to much power to the weakest link.
Just my two cents.
I'm delighted you've bought yourself new duds and are getting complimented. Good for you! I'm also very sorry about teen D's distress. Just keep being the solid guy you are. She needs that most right now.
I wish you a beautiful holiday with your children xoxoxoxo
Butterfly,
Thank you. I have resisted initiating any R talks.
Journaling:
Well, Christmas was as good as it could have been under the circumstances. Lots of family time. I am not spying but stbx will leave the house for a few hours or lock herself in the room, I assume so she can spend time with OM2. Trying to be detached from her but it still makes my heart ache that she is willing to breakup the family to play her games with other men. She asked me to sleep with her once this week and I again declined.
Hi Gordie, well it sounds as though Christmas has gone as well as it could do, given all circumstances. Next Christmas will be much better for you I promise - no matter how things unfold.
Your W may be going off to be in touch with OM, but take care not to mind read and assume. She could just as equally be having some alone time as more family time may feel like pressure. Or she may just be staring at four walls..
I have no idea what duds are - but I'm pleased you have bought some new ones and are receiving compliments - more duds please!!
Take care, and I hope you'll also make some nice plans independent of your W this festive season.
Sotto,
New duds = new clothes. Thanks for the advice about not mind reading.
Journaling:
Feeling really down that my stbx would rather start anew with OM2 than try to work things out with me. Stbx initiated a R discussion today full of ILY and tears. I kept it short. I did ask again that she sign the agreement. I want to get on with my life. I said some things maybe I should not have said. I said I know what you think you are doing is right. I think what you are doing is wrong. She said ILY and I said again that your actions don’t demonstrate love. She said I know you don’t believe it but I do love you and I’m going to keep saying it. She tried to hug me but I didn’t hug back. She said: I will sign the D because I know we need it to make our R new and stronger. What I didn’t say: how is your sleeping with OM2 making our R stronger?
Gordie:
You have been around long enough to know that it is one of the common scripts that they tell themselves (that things will be better in the relationship after the divorce).
This is her divorce. She started it. She is dishonoring you, the kids, herself, the marriage, etc. I hope that she does sign the papers and live through these fantasies quickly so that you can make an informed decision on where you and the kids go from here.
You are just seeing a sick and sad woman who sees her cake coming to an end. If she really felt any more than that, she knows how to stop the madness.
Hoping you find a light in your life each day to survive this.