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Ownit, devvo, roist, Brubeck,

Thanks for the co parenting advice. This is hard and tricky. I do want stbx to have a good R with the children but I also see the damage she is doing to that R even if she doesn’t. And yes, she left Team Gordie so not sure how this is supposed to work. I basically only now talk to her about the kids and money and divorce. The kids are the safest topic as we both still care about their health, welfare and education and want the same things, in theory. Lots for me to chew on and to learn on this topic. I should read some books on the topic.

In terms of the d, no word yet on whether she agrees and will sign or disagrees and will further negotiate. Yesterday, she was unusually warm and friendly, but this no longer makes me think she is wavering or raises my expectations. I think I’m getting to that stage of no longer wanting the miraculous reconciliation I’ve been seeking for months on end. She has literally made her bed with OM2 and is laying in it. It still makes no sense to me and probably never will. I am a man only a fool would leave. My job now is to take care of myself and the kids. I miss her and us and our family, but that’s gone now. It’s time to move on.
Thinking of sending the following and open to suggestions. I’m not sure how much I want to say but feel I need to say something.

***

Dear mom and dad,

I know that this has been a difficult stretch in our relationship as I have not opened up to you about stbx. We are on the verge of D. It’s not what I wanted and tried everything I could to stop it.

In hindsight, it’s clear that stbx checked out of our M some time ago. She admits that she has changed and happily is now living the life she wants to live. She has moved on to other men.

We will do our best to co parent the children. In our custody agreement, I can see them every day. The teens know what is going on but the little ones do not. I am committed to being the best single dad I can be for them.

I have not discussed this with others in our circle so ask that you do not share the news and let me do that at my own pace. In addition, please do not discuss this with the children until you see them in person.

And no, I am not in another relationship. Perhaps at some point in the future, but right now I am focused on taking care of me and the kids.

With love,

Gordie
Gordie - I tend to be wordy but perhaps in paragraph 3 an indication that they as grandparents will still be able to see the kids but that some of the details may still need to be worked out.

Otherwise they may be concerned that this cuts them off.
That's a loaded one Gordie. I'm not sure I would send it at all right now, unless you are absolutely sure your Mom won't tell others.

I think if I were in your situation I would wait until the document is signed and then send the message to the parents. I think I wouldn't write it, but would sit down with them or do it over the phone.

I can only share my personal experience, which wasn't good. 't exponentially raised my stress level when I told my parents. It didn't bring support. They were devastated and suddenly I had two more people to take care of. Mom would call several times a day, ostensibly to check on me but more to ask about stbxh. It was a nightmare. I wish I'd kept it quiet a lot longer. It would have been less stressful for me.

Hope this helps. xoxoxoxo
Gordie,

This is just my opinion...I wouldn't send that note to them. I wouldn't send anything in writing at this time. If you want to meet up with them and just talk, that's fine...but do not send a note. It's too impersonal and if you think anything of them, then do it in person. You are not obligated to share everything with them...limit the info that you share with others for now.

Just my two cents.
I totally agree with Job. This isn't something you write a letter to your parents about. You sit down, you sit down and have a conversation with them. I do think it's something you can't keep from them and you should tell them. But maybe keep it to, "W and I are getting a divorce, I would appreciate it if you kept that between us and not the rest of the family for the time being" let them follow with any questions, and you can answer what you are ready to answer.
AndrewP and Butterfly,

Thank you. I wasn’t sure about the letter at all but it helped to write it down for me to think about what I would want to say. Agree that I need to tell them they can still see the kids and that it’s better as a conversation than a letter once the dust settles. I can’t take care of their emotional distress right now and the last conversation was a disaster—more stress I just don’t need in my life right now and I told them that. Since then, they have backed off.

The other question is my FIL. I am not planning to reach out to him but I have a very strong feeling that once he finds out that he is going to call me to ask what happened. I have no interest in getting between him and his daughter. What do I say? He lives several states away so does not know what is going on. After D, I don’t think we will have much of a relationship as he is fiercely loyal to stbx as he should be. I want to do the honorable thing.
Hi Gordie,

In regard to your Inlaws, I wouldn’t say much. Mine have never asked me anything about it. They’ve been to my house twice, once for most of the day and they he other a half day then lunch. If they asked me anything I planned on telling them it was t my decision and it’s not what I wanted for my family. If they think about that it says a lot without saying too much.
I also let them know w they were always welcome to see, FaceTime or call the kids when they’re with me. My x mil really appreciates that and texts me a little now every once in a while.
K,

Thank you. I think that’s a solid, succinct suggestion without getting into the detIls:

“It wasn’t my decision and it’s not what I wanted for my family.”
Gordie -

Just joining the chorus. Tell your parents in person. Only tell them "technical" information. Custody, living arrangements, child support, etc. Let them ask the questions they want. Wait until you can't wait any longer to tell them. When you're preparing to move perhaps.

I noticed the last statement of your letter "And no, I am not in another relationship." Don't get preemptively defensive. I do the same d@mn thing myself! I anticipate these things I don't want to deal with or hear and I supply answers or rebuttals to things people haven't said or done yet.

If FIL calls you, IMO you only need to divert him to your STBXW. Calmly & firmly let him know that it's better if he asks his daughter for an explanation of what happened. By doing so, you are placing the ball in her court, which makes you appear comfortable with your own version of the truth and therefore not rushing to explain things to him.

He may return to you after speaking with her for further explanation. Just state your side of things as vaguely as possible with total honesty. Do not mention MLC - if you can't go into detail about how MLC rewires a person's brain, the person listening may not get it. Let FIL figure out the problem.

Over time he will see you as the steady one and his daughter on the crazy train. Getting D'd from you is one of the many bad decisions she's making in this chapter of her life. Her father will get to see her make more.

I love love love Kyh's advice. Spot on in both parts.

Just a reminder in case you might need to hear this - you are entitled to your privacy about this situation if you choose. You owe no explanation to nobody. You did not choose this path, you are only trying to deal with this as best as a father can.

Thinking of you as I have a pint of Guinness later. Hang on.
Gordie:

I have not heard from anyone in his family. The kids did not even get a Xmas card or birthday card from 3 sets of grandparents for the first time ever.

Try not to disaster plan. If he calls, just have a conversation. I also see the defensiveness in your proposed email to your parents. If you don't think they will be supportive, just hold off. Now is one of the hardest times you will face. Please be gentle with yourself and use your support system.
One other thing Gordie - I've learned that everyone has an opinion about people's divorces. The truth is, no one's opinion matters but your own. Remember that. xoxoxo
Brubeck, Ownit, Butterfly,

Thank you fo some more solid advice.

1. Yes, I am defensive because the last time I spoke to my mom she assumed I was the one cheating and walking away. I think you are right that I don’t really have the emotional energy to deal with them now. I can deal with them later when I have more stable footing.

2. Re FIL, agree I should just refer him to STBX. No idea how she will spin things but in the end it doesn’t really matter. And you are right, why am I disaster planning? It’s how my mind is spinning these days.

3. Thank you for the reminder that I have a right to my own privacy. I don’t have to tell anyone anything. Even my mom who is always digging for dirt. Why do I feel the need to explain myself? (A) Stbx was a saint and no one self included could imagine that she could do what she has done. (B) I am no saint and most self included assume if someone did something, it would be me. (C) We were the model coupl/family in our community and church and I feel we’ve let a lot of people down. In the end, I can’t even give a satisfactory explanation to myself. How can I possibly try to give one to others?
Gordie, honey, you don't need to give a satisfactory explanation. No one is entitled to invade your privacy. Also, you didn't leave. Period. End of story. In my book the one who left is the one who ought to face the brunt of this.

Yes, I understand feeling you let people down. I've felt that way too. But, we didn't let anyone down. We did our best in a situation where the cards were already stacked against us.

You have the absolute right to your own privacy. You can simply turn the conversation in a different direction when people start to ask uncomfortable questions. A simple, "Thank you for asking, I'm fine. How are you?" can often turn things back around. For the really persistent, there's the old, "I'm not comfortable talking about this, but I do thank you for your concern."
Butterfly,

Thank you. Yes. I don’t owe anyone an explanation. And yes, I can say “I don’t feel comfortable taking about this” or “I’d rather not talk about it”.

Journaling:

Stbx still hasn’t signed the agreement yet. She’s had it for a week with all the modifications we agreed upon. Since she brought OM2 her baked goods over the weekend, she has been acting all nice to me. Calling, texting, and doing stuff to be nice. No late nights or overnights. I have been friendly but aloof, keeping my distance, not engaging, busy with the kids and my own life.
Gordie - Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) once famously said "History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes".

This sounds like your STBX's actions some months ago where she wanted a divorce but didn't want to do any of the work for it.

The "why's" of this are probably beyond our abilities to understand but I think that the facts are that if you are wanting this bus to leave the station, you will have to drive. Now, I'm not sure what that means but your lawyer may have some opinions on some actions that could bear some weight.

She's baking a huge pile of cakes right now in your kitchen and feeding them to OM (literally).

Just my opinion wrapped in a 2X4.
AP,

I am driving the bus now. All she has to do is sign. If she doesn’t, then I’ll have to take her to court. It’s not what I want to do, but I want to get out of limbo. I do not want to be in an open M. My boundary has been violated. I love 2x4s.
Originally Posted By: Gordie
AP,

I am driving the bus now. All she has to do is sign. If she doesn’t, then I’ll have to take her to court. It’s not what I want to do, but I want to get out of limbo. I do not want to be in an open M. My boundary has been violated. I love 2x4s.


This ... well done Gordie

As far as other people asking, that's a tough one. Early on I seemed to take on the protector role and all but lied to protect her honor thinking we would be back together and I would have less to answer for. Then as the cycles softened, I grew, and I became less of the Nice Guy and more Cali 2.0 I did not feel I needed to lie, nor tell all .... I simply would say you can ask her, not my story to tell.

Bottom line, none of us asked for this ... but there is a high road and nothing is gained by fueling the gossip train that does seem to latch onto the MLCr engine.
Cali,

I like that too: not my story to tell. I too have tried to defend her from questions. I guess I don’t have o do that anymore. And no, I don’t want to feed the gossips.

Update:

So stbx finally talked to me about the d. She said she is frustrated with her L because he is so slow. She is waiting for his comments but said she wants to sign ASAP. In the meantime, she also asked that we do Thanksgiving together. I said that was fine as long as OM2 was not a part of it. And she said okay to that.
Update:

I think Roist or Brubeck predicted this. So stbx asked me today if we could still live together after D. I said no. She seemed genuinely surprised by this. No, I will never understand this. Ever.
I am not surprised that she WAS surprised. My h asked for the most outlandish "terms" and was shocked when I immediately said no. As I have written before, he thought he was going to go sleep around 'til he wee hours of the morning then come back home to play house. He wanted to eat a whole bakery worth of cake. You can't stop the crazy train but you can get off at the nearest stop.

I am late to the game on the kids disrespecting her. But if I may chime in? My advice is that you always tell w that you're never going to condone/normalize extra marrital affairs. You can calmly say "of course you have every right to teach them whatever values you want to, but I intend to exercise the same right." I am sorry but they shouldn't respect her right now. And acting like they should sends mixed messages. So affairs are amoral unless it's my mom happening to have one?

I would not be surprised if her lawyer is not the one being slow but rather she is the one dragging her feet a bit.

She stands to lose a lot in divorce. You do, too. We all do.But (and it's a big but) you will maintain your self respect.
I agree w/HaWho 100%. They come up w/some of the most outlandish ideas for what will take place after a divorce. They think things will go on being the same and that you will be best buds and allow them to continue living under the same roof as well as being there to bail them out of whatever they get into. That isn't what divorce is all about...but in their minds...it's nothing but a piece of paper and they think that we will remain right where they left us.

As for dragging her feet...my money is on her doing it, not the lawyer. Trust me, the lawyer will love her doing this because it's more money in his/her pocket if it continues to drag out and you are going back and forth on trivial stuff.

Hang in there and know that no matter what you decide, we will support you.
Hi Gordie, I'm not surprised she said that, nor that she was surprised when you said no. And it's good that you told her so clearly. Here's how she thinks it will work - life carries on very much like now - all the comforts of a family home - but she gets to live the 'single' life and carries on seeing OM etc.

Here's how it will work - you'll S and you will rebuild your own life - perhaps dating in time. She will need to take responsibility for finances, children, balancing commitments etc. But her mind isn't really thinking of that - or of you and your needs right now. Still, life teaches us lessons and they will be learned for sure....

Before we S, XH told me about a colleague who had multiple A's and he and his W S multiple times before deciding to live in a M that was 'open' for him. XH told me this story as though it was a good outcome and something to aim for. My response was - wow that sounds like such a nightmare and what a painful thing to go through...

Boundaries are so important in your situation and I'm glad to see you holding firm on 'how this is going to work for me once we D'

Take care and keep moving forwards :-)
HaWho: I am not surprised that she WAS surprised. My h asked for the most outlandish "terms" and was shocked when I immediately said no. As I have written before, he thought he was going to go sleep around 'til he wee hours of the morning then come back home to play house. He wanted to eat a whole bakery worth of cake. You can't stop the crazy train but you can get off at the nearest stop.

G: thank you. Yes, she feels entitled to unlimited cake and I think my bake shop can’t produce enough to meet her demand. Sadly, I feel divorce and physical separation is the only way for me to get off the crazy train. I wish there was another way.

H: i am late to the game on the kids disrespecting her. But if I may chime in? My advice is that you always tell w that you're never going to condone/normalize extra marrital affairs. You can calmly say "of course you have every right to teach them whatever values you want to, but I intend to exercise the same right." I am sorry but they shouldn't respect her right now. And acting like they should sends mixed messages. So affairs are amoral unless it's my mom happening to have one?

G: wow, that hit me like a 2x4 and a much needed one. I had a talk with one of the teenagers and your words gave me the encouragement to say simply, I think adultery is wrong and I don’t want you to think that I condone it. Having that conversation with stbx? I don’t think it helps me to initiate this conversation with stbx but feel more equipped to handle it when it comes up. But whether or not we ever discuss it, it’s how I will act. For the little ones, I fear there is nothing I can do. Stbx is absolutely trying to normalize her R with OM2 and they accept him as mommy’s special friend.

H: I would not be surprised if her lawyer is not the one being slow but rather she is the one dragging her feet a bit. She stands to lose a lot in divorce. You do, too. We all do.But (and it's a big but) you will maintain your self respect.

G: I do believe I have maintained my self respect. I re read J3B and the reminder at all the bad decisions the MLCer will make. And yes, my job now is to jus step back and let her make those choices and try to protect the children as much as possible.
Job: agree w/HaWho 100%. They come up w/some of the most outlandish ideas for what will take place after a divorce. They think things will go on being the same and that you will be best buds and allow them to continue living under the same roof as well as being there to bail them out of whatever they get into. That isn't what divorce is all about...but in their minds...it's nothing but a piece of paper and they think that we will remain right where they left us.

G: she absolutely believes we will remain BFFs. I have said that is not the case but she doesn’t believe me. And yes, I have been helping her understand the finances and what it will take to maintain the home but I think that’s the decent thing to do and in my children’s best interest.

J: As for dragging her feet...my money is on her doing it, not the lawyer. Trust me, the lawyer will love her doing this because it's more money in his/her pocket if it continues to drag out and you are going back and forth on trivial stuff.

G: think you and HaWho may be right so will talk to my L about driving this to completion.

J: Hang in there and know that no matter what you decide, we will support you.

G: to be clear, I am still interested in R but think at this point D is necessary. My d b coach and others here have warned me that some like my stbx won’t even consider R until D is actually done. I really hoped it wasn’t going to come to this but when OM2 and full on PA started, my boundary was crossed. I refuse to stay in the M under these circumstances. Is there any other way?
Sotto: Gordie, I'm not surprised she said that, nor that she was surprised when you said no. And it's good that you told her so clearly. Here's how she thinks it will work - life carries on very much like now - all the comforts of a family home - but she gets to live the 'single' life and carries on seeing OM etc.

G: given how much I contribute to the housekeeping and childcare, I do worry that she won’t be able to handle it without me, but can’t worry about that now.

S: Here's how it will work - you'll S and you will rebuild your own life - perhaps dating in time. She will need to take responsibility for finances, children, balancing commitments etc. But her mind isn't really thinking of that - or of you and your needs right now. Still, life teaches us lessons and they will be learned for sure....

G: I think she’s gonna have to learn that stuff the hard way.

S: Before we S, XH told me about a colleague who had multiple A's and he and his W S multiple times before deciding to live in a M that was 'open' for him. XH told me this story as though it was a good outcome and something to aim for. My response was - wow that sounds like such a nightmare and what a painful thing to go through...

G: great response. I don’t think I’m so good in the moment. I just am still so shocked that I wind up saying nothing, shaking my head in disbelief.

S: Boundaries are so important in your situation and I'm glad to see you holding firm on 'how this is going to work for me once we D'. Take care and keep moving forwards :-)

G: thanks and will do so. Like Kyh and ForGump, I think stbx is going to be very needy after d, so need to figure out how much help I will provide. I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
So stbx met with her L. Great news is she agreed to my 50-50 custody proposal as opposed to the every other weekend she proposed (I decided that was what was most important to me and I compromised on money). A huge thank you to ginger, jeep, rose, LT, ForGump, Cali, chris73 and others who told me I could do this when I didn’t think it was possible. Bad news is she is fighting one last financial issue. Hopefully we can agree on that soon and get this done.

Between the two of us, she has been super friendly but I am at the LBS stage where I am repelled by her. I’m not mean but I definitely keep my physical and emotional distance.

The hardest day of the week for me is Sunday. That used to be our family day of church and brunch and a family activity. Now because she knows I will take the kids to church on Sunday morning, Saturday is one of the nights she goes for sleepovers with OM2. She drops back in on Sunday at some point and is all cheery. The kids have stopped asking where is mommy, where is mommy.
One more thing: I know it’s not their fault but when the little kids talk about OM2 and their activities with him and the gifts he buys them, it drives me nuts. It’s emotionally torturing me. Argh!!!
I know there are a lot of people on this site, and others, who focus on the OP and how evil, awful, etc. they are. I do admit that from time to time I wonder, why would a divorced mother of three who has to know his immediate history be with him while married, and making no effort to end it. Where do they find these people?

But, you know that the violator here is her. She is the mother, the wife, the one who took the vows. She is allowing her children to be innocent projectiles bringing you more pain. Although it is difficult, I think when that happens, you need to focus on the fact that SHE has done this, SHE has allowed this. SHE is the one in the wrong. Focusing on this man is just a distraction from reality, your work, and your recovery from what is clearly an abusive situation.

I read some threads with really nasty, mean guys saying and doing nasty things to their Ws and involving their children and I feel such disgust. I know when I read your thread I will hear the voice of a kind, generous, loving man who is doing his best to bring peace, humanity, and healing to a very dark and difficult place.

Sometimes I hate my H. Sometimes I feel sorry for him. Somethings I find the whole situation humorous. What I don't do is take that out on him or my kids. I am proud of myself for that.
Originally Posted By: Gordie
One more thing: I know it’s not their fault but when the little kids talk about OM2 and their activities with him and the gifts he buys them, it drives me nuts. It’s emotionally torturing me. Argh!!!


Yes Gordie, it hurts like a b!tch and I am sorry you have to experience this. This was the hardest part of the whole D for me. My daughter was a baby when OW came into her life. I'll never forget when she came home from her dad's house and she was just learning to talk. And she was talking about someone she called "hiya". I realized it was OWW, who's name is "heather". I went nuts, in private of course. And to this day, at 10 years old, that's what my daughter calls her. It still makes me twitch every time I hear it.

You know how parents say they would throw themselves in front a bus for their kids, or take a bullet? When that is what we are doing. Although sometimes this may actually hurt more.

Just remember anytime you think you would take a bullet for your children, you actually are. And that's what kind of fabulous father you. Just remember that. be the man and father you want to be regardless of the mother your ex is right now.

Oh, and Ownit said it right. I agree with everything she says.
Ownit: I know there are a lot of people on this site, and others, who focus on the OP and how evil, awful, etc. they are. I do admit that from time to time I wonder, why would a divorced mother of three who has to know his immediate history be with him while married, and making no effort to end it. Where do they find these people?

G: I get this feeling that there are a lot of folks who have no problem getting together with married folks. A friend’s w even accepted a m proposal while their d was still pending.

O: But, you know that the violator here is her. She is the mother, the wife, the one who took the vows. She is allowing her children to be innocent projectiles bringing you more pain. Although it is difficult, I think when that happens, you need to focus on the fact that SHE has done this, SHE has allowed this. SHE is the one in the wrong. Focusing on this man is just a distraction from reality, your work, and your recovery from what is clearly an abusive situation.

G: you are right. I have never focused on OM1 or OM2 but the unwanted thoughts do come. I think it’s easier to hate on OMs than to hate on STBX. I see folks here trying to mitigate their own pain by blaming OM or MLC or whatever. It hurts less than to just accept that STBX is rejecting me.

O: I read some threads with really nasty, mean guys saying and doing nasty things to their Ws and involving their children and I feel such disgust. I know when I read your thread I will hear the voice of a kind, generous, loving man who is doing his best to bring peace, humanity, and healing to a very dark and difficult place.

G: thanks. Even after all she’s done, I’m just not a nasty guy who does or says nasty things. Am I tempted? You bet. But...I don’t want to be that guy. That’s not me. Part of th reason why I don’t want to meet OM2 is that I want to avoid the temptation of taking it out on him.

O: Sometimes I hate my H. Sometimes I feel sorry for him. Somethings I find the whole situation humorous. What I don't do is take that out on him or my kids. I am proud of myself for that.

G: that is awesome and I hope I will always be able to say the same.
Ginger: Yes Gordie, it hurts like a b!tch and I am sorry you have to experience this. This was the hardest part of the whole D for me. My daughter was a baby when OW came into her life. I'll never forget when she came home from her dad's house and she was just learning to talk. And she was talking about someone she called "hiya". I realized it was OWW, who's name is "heather". I went nuts, in private of course. And to this day, at 10 years old, that's what my daughter calls her. It still makes me twitch every time I hear it.

Gordie: yes, that’s it. I twitch. I cringe. But I say nothing.

Ginger: You know how parents say they would throw themselves in front a bus for their kids, or take a bullet? When that is what we are doing. Although sometimes this may actually hurt more.

Gordie: wow, just wow.

Ginger: Just remember anytime you think you would take a bullet for your children, you actually are. And that's what kind of fabulous father you. Just remember that. be the man and father you want to be regardless of the mother your ex is right now.

Gordie: that is some a$$ kicking advice, thank you, thank you.
Gord, you are totally right in your feelings of betrayal and disgust of what your w has done to you and your children. The sad part is that most of us here signed on for the whole "for better or worse" part of the vows too, and I'm sure that most of us meant it. We would do whatever it took to figure out what is wrong and make it better.

The way I see it is that right now they are kind of sick and definitely are totally confused. Much of what they are doing, they are doing because they, instead of trying to fix what is wrong, are searching for their elusive happiness outside of their covenant relationship.

I don't know this pain that you are going thru because my ex has either shielded my kids from the OM that she had the EA with, or she is not in that any more. I don't know and really don't care to know. I am sorry that you are having to deal with this, but remember that when you feel that you are about to explode you can come here and open up a can of verbal whoopa$$ and let that frustration go.

I know that this time of year is tough on us all, but I hope and pray that you have a good Thanksgiving.

By the way, I will tell you that time spent hunting with family and friends does help clear your heart, mind and soul. If you get a chance get out in the woods. It works.
Gordie

Eye on the prize here ... you have already achieved 50/50 which many fathers out there wish they could get. We are fortunate as 20-30 years ago we would get every other weekend at best but the courts and society are starting to realize fathers are just important as mothers in a child's upbringing. So I am sure you will get over that last financial hurdle as she will be focused on that shiny new life that awaits her ... this gets brighter the closer we get to 2018. As I type this I find myself in a similar position ... my MLCr too has agreed on 50/50 but we are no where close on anything else so its another court date in Jan. As bad as she wants D she wants the $$ more, sometimes ya have to laugh.

As far as OM, I feel for you there. My S refers to OM as D-Bag and to her credit he has not been around since Feb15 but I would guess he is still in the picture, only a guess and really makes no difference anymore tbh. I did like Gingers Bullet take on that topic and would have to agree to take that approach. Just keep this in mind, Holidays are tough, you may want to rethink what you do and with who .... I know kids are involved but you both will have to figure out this time of year given the D process. Bigger point is what can you feel comfortable with, I was no longer going to fake family and allow her to eat cake .... reading along with your sitch she loves her cake.
SBJ: you are totally right in your feelings of betrayal and disgust of what your w has done to you and your children. The sad part is that most of us here signed on for the whole "for better or worse" part of the vows too, and I'm sure that most of us meant it. We would do whatever it took to figure out what is wrong and make it better.

G: the one time early I asked about vows I got this: I feel dead so fulfilled until death do we part.

SBJ: The way I see it is that right now they are kind of sick and definitely are totally confused. Much of what they are doing, they are doing because they, instead of trying to fix what is wrong, are searching for their elusive happiness outside of their covenant relationship.

G: sometimes I feel this way too but sickness absolves them of responsibility. I think stbx knows exactly what she’s doing and feels no guilt about it. As all of you have predicted, I have never seen any sign of guilt of remorse. It is what it is. Love is a choice. D is a choice too.

SBJ: I don't know this pain that you are going thru because my ex has either shielded my kids from the OM that she had the EA with, or she is not in that any more. I don't know and really don't care to know. I am sorry that you are having to deal with this, but remember that when you feel that you are about to explode you can come here and open up a can of verbal whoopa$$ and let that frustration go.

G: exactly. Sometimes the stuff is so nutty I’m embarrassed to even admit it to my supportive friends. Here, I know you guys understand.

SBJ: I know that this time of year is tough on us all, but I hope and pray that you have a good Thanksgiving.

G: gonna do my best and hope it want a mistake for us to celebrate together

SBJ: By the way, I will tell you that time spent hunting with family and friends does help clear your heart, mind and soul. If you get a chance get out in the woods. It works.

G: I haven’t been in a tree stand in over a decade. I may just plan a trip with my eldest.
Cali: Eye on the prize here ... you have already achieved 50/50 which many fathers out there wish they could get. We are fortunate as 20-30 years ago we would get every other weekend at best but the courts and society are starting to realize fathers are just important as mothers in a child's upbringing.

H: this is what I am most thankful about this year. Here’s my traditional/sexist view. I always believed and acted as if the mother is the center of the family. SAHM was primary parent and I was secondary. I thought this was the perfect model. Well, since b d I have made every effort to up my game. I have always been involved but now much more so with the confidence I can do this without stbx. No, it’s not what I wanted but as Irish has told me, there’s no better job in the world.

SBJ: So I am sure you will get over that last financial hurdle as she will be focused on that shiny new life that awaits her ... this gets brighter the closer we get to 2018. As I type this I find myself in a similar position ... my MLCr too has agreed on 50/50 but we are no where close on anything else so its another court date in Jan. As bad as she wants D she wants the $$ more, sometimes ya have to laugh.

G: I was shocked she cared more about the $$$ than the custody agreement.

SBJ: As far as OM, I feel for you there. My S refers to OM as D-Bag and to her credit he has not been around since Feb15 but I would guess he is still in the picture, only a guess and really makes no difference anymore tbh. I did like Gingers Bullet take on that topic and would have to agree to take that approach. Just keep this in mind, Holidays are tough, you may want to rethink what you do and with who .... I know kids are involved but you both will have to figure out this time of year given the D process. Bigger point is what can you feel comfortable with, I was no longer going to fake family and allow her to eat cake .... reading along with your sitch she loves her cake.

G: she loves cake and I know she’s gonna keep asking for more after d. I haven’t figured out my boundaries on that yet and will ask for advice as that time approaches.
So frustrated. We agreed on the final financial point and then she changes her mind and now stbx wants even more money. Back to the drawing table. It is amazing to me she gave me everything I wanted on custody (thank God) but on the financial settlement, she just can’t get enough. I almost raged tonight but kept it in check. I did say I was very frustrated that I just spent $$$ changing the agreement to what we had discussed and now she is changing her mind.
CaliGuy once wrote on my thread "custody of the cats crazy". when I was talking about my own process. Even though my agreement is still not signed due to external reasons with the lawyer's office, I'm glad that it didn't come to that.

Reality is starting to bite your STBX on the derrierre (hey that didn't get censored!) and she doesn't like it.

To look at this crassly from the outside, she's chosen a lower quality OM and is realizing that she "needs" you to pay all the bills.

One of the things that worries me in your case is that I believe that the new tax bill has passed part way through to becoming law and that has huge implications on spousal support in the US (fortunately not for me). I presume you are staying on top of that but the clock is ticking. So - realistically you have deals before 1-Jan and those after and they need to operate on completely different math.

I think we can assume that she will not be good with money especially at the outset. Your lawyer will give you much better advice than anything that I have typed and deleted three times here.

Do you think that the 1-Jan deadline can be used as leverage to get the deal on the table signed? Otherwise as you say, it's back to the drawing board. Realistically if you wanted to play hard-ball you could just move out and then oblige her to file for temporary support. Often temporary support orders from what I understand are made final. From what I've also read if you go before a judge and shove things along that way they will often look at the existing agreement proposals say "that looks fair" and bang the gavel on it.

Good luck. Team Gordie is standing shoulder to shoulder with you.
Andrew,

Thanks for the encouragement. I definitely want this signed in 2017. So here’s the update:

Discussed again with L. Proposed a meet in the middle solution to STBX. She verbally agreed. He will write it up and then send it to her L for her to sign.

Happy Thanksgiving. I am going to do my best to be upbeat and cheery and thankful tomorrow despite the situation.

Let’s be thankful:

I didn’t kill myself. I maintained my dignity. I didn’t lose my mind. I didn’t lose my faith. I didn’t give in to anger and despair.

I didn’t give into crazy ideas like an open M. I remained faithful to my beliefs and my M vows. I still believe in love and M.

I am a better listener. I am more aware of my actions and attitudes. I am less conflict avoidant.

I am a better and more involved father with 50/50 custody. I love my kids and my kids love me.

I got unbelievable support through my process. I found out who some of my true friends were. I met all of you!

Yes, lots to be handful for, lots...
Journaling:

So stbx asked me to pick up some from the grocery store for Thanksgiving so I did so. I walk in the door and she is all dolled up and has her coat on and announces to all of us that she is going to the mall. I don’t think any of us believed her. Make the kids dinner. Put kids to bed. Kids ask when is mom coming home? I say I don’t know. Clean up the house and get ready for bed. W comes in cheerily and tries to chit chat and I go to bed.
Sorry this is dragging out on you. Maybeyou should nothave explained the financial running of the house before signing! But in all probability she would have come back for more anyway.

Don't give in just to get this over with. I understand that mustbe tempting.Buy this agreement will determine in many ways your standard of living and that of your kids. Hold firm if it is important to you and for that.

Best wishes and happy thanksgiving
Gordie:

It is a hard day no doubt. No words of wisdom. I've had some tears today. Holidays are so difficult.

It is almost impossible to negotiate with someone who is disordered. This is why I abandoned my own efforts to get a signed separation contract. I hope that you have more luck. The difference is that she wants money from you. Mine is paying well so no reason to push it. I hope you get this worked out soon so that you can move out and find some peace.
Roist,

If she signs this amended agreement, I can live with it. Financially, I can deal with it. Custody-wise, I got everything I wanted and that was most important to me.

Ownit,

Holidays are hard and a few weeks ago didn’t want to be here for Thanksgiving but then she asked and I consulted with a deal friend who had a WW and he said do it for the kids and like Ginger said, if it [censored] for you, you’re taking a bullet for them.

Journaling:

Well, Thanksgiving was a success in my book. I think I’m gettting closer to acceptance. I treated stbx with kindness, as the mother of my children. I focused on making this a great day for them. Stbx left for a few hours in the middle of the day which pissed off the teens but I was surprisingly unemotional about it. I just enjoyed the time with the kids without her. No one asked where she went or why, we all just rolled with it.

***

I see now that when stbx dropped the bomb on me, she was ready to move her EA to a PA. In her mind because it was after b d, it’s not cheating or adultery. I didn’t learn this from my own situation (too close to the action) but from others. A friend even had her stbx propose to OW before their D was final and he tells everyone he never cheated.

I am also getting to that LBS place where I think there may not be a road back to reconciliation after D. She has changed into a totally different person and I’m not sure I would want to spend the rest of my life with this version of her. But that’s not even an option right now, so no need to think too much about that. But thinking those thoughts makes it easier to let go of this M. I just wish the kids didn’t have to after through all of this.

I hope all of you out there had a good of a day as possible. I prayed especially for all of you, particularly those separated and divorced against their wishes, and all of your children who are suffering through all of this too. Peace be with you.
Journaling:

I take the kids to a family event tonight. Stbx is on a date with OM2. I see lots of my stbx’s old friends and all ask where is stbx? I’m still covering up for her and say she wasn’t able to make it. None of them know we are about to get D. I guess shortly, I will just say something like “I guess you haven’t heard that we’re divorced now” ... I still can’t believe the woman who wouldn’t miss a single family event now prefers to spend her time with OM2, but it’s my reality so why does my heart still ache when out as the single dad? I guess it just doesn’t seem right to me, to be there without stbx and surrounded by all of the intact families.
I say drop the bomb. F that $hit...
Vapo,

I was tempted to say, “ o stbx is out with her BF” ... but no, I didn’t say that.

***

Journaling:

Everyone says holidays are hard. And yeah, living through it and seeing why. Stbx has taken this break from work to spend every possible minute with OM2 including sleepovers. Trying to spend enjoyable time with the kids, to be my best for them. Trying to win stbx back is no longer a motivator but still have fantasies of her waking up at the 11th hour and saying “what the f have I done???” ... but know that is just a fantasy and then bring myself back to the reality of my life. One of my kids matter of factly remarked that stbx never comes to his events and she had nothing to say. My peak anger and frustaration has passed (I think) but think for the kids it is building and will more so after the d is final and it becomes public gossip (we are a well known family in a small town). I wish I could protect them from all of this.
From Chris’s thread: Look up dday101798 . Here's a link to the recon post that happened 6 months after D:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1781811&page=74

Here are a few others that someone else posted a while back:

Notlikingthis

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2515648&page=1

upside

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2260170#Post2260170

Freckle

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2735806#Post2735806
Journaling:

So stbx came back after two days with OM2 and just jumped back into family life. I am trying not to rock the boat until this agreement gets signed but I am tired of constantly serving cake. Right now she has OM2 and then family life whenever she decides. It’s tiresome and awkward for me and the teens. Let’s get this signed this week and move on to the next chapter.
My heart goes out to you brother. Nothing that any of us go thru makes any sense, but your stbx is way off right now. Their confusion must be extremely crazy.

I am sorry that you are going thru this at this time of year. It is hard to believe that mine has been gone since this time last year. Stay strong and stand tall. You are truly a class act.
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Journaling:

So stbx came back after two days with OM2 and just jumped back into family life. I am trying not to rock the boat until this agreement gets signed but I am tired of constantly serving cake. Right now she has OM2 and then family life whenever she decides. It’s tiresome and awkward for me and the teens. Let’s get this signed this week and move on to the next chapter.


Why don't you tell her if you guys are getting divorced, you better start living like it. Split your nights home. She doesn't just get to run out and stay overnight with OM. make a schedule and split the days of the week. She has to stay home with the kids certain nights a week, and you get to go out. Who cares where you go, get out.

And before you say it....... "but kids need me there" They will be fine with their mom. You get out of the crazy house when you get a chance.
Gordie,

I agree with Ginger. She feels so sure that she can go out and do anything she wants and you will always be there for her.

You need to change that immediately. Start staying over a friends house overnight without telling her where you were.
Gordie ... my sitch didn't include the MLCr being home and eating the cake as yours is but I would agree with Ginger... you should absolutely get a schedule plan put in place, you will have one like this when the D is in place anyways. In a way you are simply enabling her behavior.

To add on to the above, there are not many things that are guaranteed with MLC .... with one exception. I can absolutely promise you this process takes more time than one would ever admit. Regardless if there is divorce or reconciliation its the long journey that will make or break you as a person and the holidays never give you a break, I am a good 4 years past and while it doesn't sting like it once did, its impossible to not be reminded about the family. As I said in M's thread ... I would wager its worse for the MLCr as they wear the happy mask but deep down have to live with the guilt of blowing up the unit ... in your case, you can not cover nor shield her from this ... I would start making plans to do your thing and let her start feeling what life is going to be without you ... you have resorted to the babysitter role and that's not fair to you.
I agree w/the others. If a divorce is coming down the pike, it's time to start living like the two of you are divorced. Set up a schedule for taking care of the kids and go out and do something on your nights off. She needs to start feeling what it will be like once the divorce takes place.

Gordie, you've been given some very wise advice by all this morning...it's time to think about Gordie. Your children will be fine w/their mom on her days to take care of them.
Gordie:

I'm a charter member of the keep things nice club while I negotiate that settlement. You know where I am on that. Although there may be some changes coming.

I too would have the logistics discussions with her. If you think you can get it wrapped up this week do, but don't let it drag on too long. You don't want the teens to think this is acceptable or normal behavior.
SBJ, Ginger, LH, job, cali, own,

Thanks for the support. You guys are all right. I never implemented a strict schedule as it has only in the last month or two gotten to this level. I want to get the agreement signed this week and then the schedule will be imposed. However, she still backs me up when I need it for work trips and I do the same for her so being too rigid will not serve me well.

And yes, Ginger, I do say to myself “the kids need me” but you are right it shouldn’t be at the cost of my own sanity and GAL.

Ownit, I am fairly confident that the teens do not think this is normal. They find this whole situation as crazy as I do.

Son got sick and I took care of him and worked from home. Never in our marriage did I stay home to take care of sick kids as stbx was a SAHM. But now that I am acting S a single parent, it’s part of my role.

I have thought more about dating and the whole idea of being with someone else seems strange to me. Obviously, I’m not ready for that.
Advice requested:

So it’s been two months of LRT. We basically only discuss kids, money and divorce. We have agreed to the final financial point. The last step is to sign and go to our court appearance. DB coach says the point of LRT is to create space for w to miss me. Well, in my case, I think it initially created space for w to spend all her time with OM2. And whatever last shred of hope I had for R died. And with that, I let go even more. Something inside me changed. I didn’t say anything, but I am a terrible poker player and stbx of course has noticed. She has tried to talk to me. She has tried to give me a hug. And today she texted that she misses me. I didn’t text back. I have zero expectations as I fully expect to be divorced by Christmas but question for all of you is...what do I do now?
Gordie:

I see you hanging on the edge of the cliff, fingers desperately clutching to hold on for the fear of letting go. You have to stop second-guessing what you did in the past. It is over and it is done. And I seriously doubt that you pulling back did anything other than what it was supposed to. Fantasies endure for years (for my H his EA/FA was like 5 years long until he went at it with OW1). They have to see the fantasy as just that. They have to have the consequences.

She is doing what this method predicts she will. You are pulling away and appearing to give up and she is now feeling the reality of the situation. However, this woman is nowhere near finished. She is very heavy into replay (mine wallowed at home for years and now is running and running and running. I think yours will do the same). She probably won't pull back on the divorce before it is finalized, but she most definitely won't be done by December.

As hard as it is, and it is so hard, uncurl those fingers, let go. Take the leap of faith and accept that the unknown without her is better than life with a present day cake-eating cheater who not only eats the cake, but rubs it all over your face in the process.

You don't know what she is going to do or how she will react to you letting go. You know that as hard as you've tried, as much as you've DBed, you can't fix her. She has to walk this part by herself. If you can do it, you need to let her go and focus on you and the kids. It hurts like hell and the tears keep coming, but the self-respect does provide some salve.
What you do know, Gordie, is up to you.
Think long and hard about what you really want. Maybe set up a DB Coaching session to work through it all. Ultimately, this is really about you and what you want.


xoxoxoxo
now not know. Sorry. It's 5am here. no coffee yet.
Gordie,

I would say the h@ll with it and throw caution to the wind and call her out on it. If you can do it without expectations, that would be totally awesome. In light of the fact that she said that she misses you, I'd say, prove it. Call her bluff on it. Take your balls back. In a manner of speaking I'd say it's time to $hit or get off the pot.

Sorry for the crude language, but you get the gist of it, I am sure...
Gordie,

It is difficult to see from the inside, especially when you want this all to end, but here is how it looks from the outside.

She feels like you are taking away her cake. Her "I miss you's" right now are because she fears she is going to lose her lovely family life and her other life with her OM. She has it so made right now and when she feels as if she is losing one part of this equation, she knows how to reel you back in.

Has her actions indicated she misses you or wants you back? Has she decided to end her affair?

I would keep going as you are. Let her feel it. And even if she did dump OM, I would hope you would need to see a nice length of serious change before even considering taking her back.

She's been messing with your head majorly to get what she wants.

Just ignore her and keep on keeping on.
Gordie,

You've been given a lot of great advice. What is going on is the distance/pursuer dance. You pull away and yes, taking away her cake and ice cream...and now she's trying to reel you back in.

As Ginger pointed out, she messing with your head...but she is also messing with your heart and she knows that you still love her.

She is going to try every way to get you reeled back in because she's got the best of both worlds right now and she sure doesn't want to lose either one of them. When she realized that you aren't going to be reeled back in, you may see some ugliness come out to play. Ignore her and her behavior...keep moving forward for you and your children.
Gordie

Everyone is spot on here. I wish I could tell you how many times the "I miss you" set me back, I felt like it was a horror movie where the person was possessed by some dark force/demon and that "I miss you" for me was a secret sign she was still in there reaching out telling me to save/fix her. Sadly enough of those and you learn actions seldom mirror those words ... she would text me as she was on her way out with OM.

Currently in her head you are the LR in the LRT. She knows at this moment that she 'deserves this' and if it doesnt work out she is free to say an I'm sorry and come back to you or maybe go find an OM3. They just do not see the damage done and from all the accounts I have experienced they just dont for a long time if they ever bother to see it at all .. truth is its painful to wake up and realize how you have destroyed several people with your selfish actions.

So, keep strong for now, its the Holidays and it simply just stinks ... that's the truth. Stinks for you, stinks for your kids, stinks for her but she is to distracted with all those drug induced fantasies and sensations. Its time for you to look inward and decide how you want life to be from this point out. I recently read a blip of someone who had gone through all this and he compared it to a CTR-ALT-DEL episode, all the sudden out of no where your life is reset, you did not want it nor ask for is and you lost a good deal of work .... you have the chance to make that work better now.
Originally Posted By: OwnIt

As hard as it is, and it is so hard, uncurl those fingers, let go. Take the leap of faith and accept that the unknown without her is better than life with a present day cake-eating cheater who not only eats the cake, but rubs it all over your face in the process.


OMG. I need a full size poster of this!!!
Originally Posted By: Vapo
Gordie,

I would say the h@ll with it and throw caution to the wind and call her out on it. If you can do it without expectations, that would be totally awesome. In light of the fact that she said that she misses you, I'd say, prove it. Call her bluff on it. Take your balls back. In a manner of speaking I'd say it's time to $hit or get off the pot.

Sorry for the crude language, but you get the gist of it, I am sure...


V—I’ve been tempted but I know in my heart her words are worth nothing...her actions tell me all I need to know...she is much more invested in OM2 at present and she can shove her “I miss you” you know where...
Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Has her actions indicated she misses you or wants you back? Has she decided to end her affair? I would keep going as you are. Let her feel it. And even if she did dump OM, I would hope you would need to see a nice length of serious change before even considering taking her back. She's been messing with your head majorly to get what she wants. Just ignore her and keep on keeping on.


I think you are absolutely right. I have been a full service bakery with unlimited cake. And yes, if she dumps OM2 tomorrow—which I am not expecting—yes, a lot of time and work would be needed before R. Ginger, I feel like you always know what’s going on in a way that I can’t see so as always, thank you.
Originally Posted By: job
As Ginger pointed out, she messing with your head...but she is also messing with your heart and she knows that you still love her. She is going to try every way to get you reeled back in because she's got the best of both worlds right now and she sure doesn't want to lose either one of them. When she realized that you aren't going to be reeled back in, you may see some ugliness come out to play. Ignore her and her behavior...keep moving forward for you and your children.


Job, thank you for the advice and warning. I have seen the ugliness before and yes, may well see it again. She still wants us to be BFFs and I haven’t been cooperating. My words haven’t been received but I think my actions are starting to be noted. But you are right, she does know I still love her and I do find it hard to ignore her.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Gordie

Everyone is spot on here. I wish I could tell you how many times the "I miss you" set me back, I felt like it was a horror movie where the person was possessed by some dark force/demon and that "I miss you" for me was a secret sign she was still in there reaching out telling me to save/fix her. Sadly enough of those and you learn actions seldom mirror those words ... she would text me as she was on her way out with OM.

Currently in her head you are the LR in the LRT. She knows at this moment that she 'deserves this' and if it doesnt work out she is free to say an I'm sorry and come back to you or maybe go find an OM3. They just do not see the damage done and from all the accounts I have experienced they just dont for a long time if they ever bother to see it at all .. truth is its painful to wake up and realize how you have destroyed several people with your selfish actions.

So, keep strong for now, its the Holidays and it simply just stinks ... that's the truth. Stinks for you, stinks for your kids, stinks for her but she is to distracted with all those drug induced fantasies and sensations. Its time for you to look inward and decide how you want life to be from this point out. I recently read a blip of someone who had gone through all this and he compared it to a CTR-ALT-DEL episode, all the sudden out of no where your life is reset, you did not want it nor ask for is and you lost a good deal of work .... you have the chance to make that work better now.


Cali, wow. Amazing—are we trapped in the same horror movie? Like job said, she knows I still live her and she knows what words to use that push my buttons and...yes, try and reel me back in. But with all of your support, I’m sick and tired of playing her game.
Hi Gordie, you've received some stellar advice from others already. I just wanted to chime in with the astonishing mindset of the MLCer who's thinking gets so skewed.

Really - you're texting your H one minute saying I miss you. And simultaneously making plans with OM2??

XH did similar when we met up after BD. Told me afterwards that he felt swept away by me and wanted to hold my hand. Found out much later he already had flights booked to visit OW just a few days later. My boundary with him was rock solid at that point and that is so important - I never regretted not getting reeled in.

Fact is, you are a good ways away from any sort of reconciliation with OM on the scene. Your best shot is if she knows that you genuinely have had enough of the current situation and are moving forward solidly without her - fully prepared to rebuild and move on in time.

I think you're doing great by the way xx
Gordie, I agree with Sotto - you are doing splendidly in a horrible situation. Keep being the rock for your children and yes, time to shut down the full service bakery.

What you do now is focus on you. Focus on your beautiful children. Keep doing what you're doing. Hold firm. You got this. xoxoxo
Sotto and Butterfly,

Thank you for the much needed encouragement. How can she say she misses me when she is choosing to spend all her time with OM2???

***

Journaling:

So I finally did what the DB coach and all of you especially Ginger have been telling me for a while. I left the kids with stbx and said I’d be back the next day. I did feel awkward about doing this and wondered what the kids would think. I went out with friends and had fun.

Stbx was texting through the night and I didn’t respond. I was met with the following comments the next day:

I miss you.

I still love you.

I want you to talk to me.

I want to spend time with you.

I’m confused about what I want.

To these statements, I just say ok or say nothing. I feel like she is going to press me for a R talk this weekend but I don’t really want to engage. If pressed, whar do I say?

I want to be your H not your friend. I do not want to be in a R with you while you are in a R with another man. When you say ILY and I miss you, it contradicts your actions.
G,

I would go ballistic on her. In no uncertain terms I would convey that OM has to be out of the picture and total transparency. Phone available to you, no locks, no hidden apps, aboulute disclosure.
I think that is perfect . I also think you should not talk if you don’t want to. Just be honest and I’m sorry Vapo I don’t think going off on her is going to help the cause. It may be satisfying but will only make her defensive and run in the other direction feeling even more justified. I would stay as calm as possible and state how I honestly feel with as little emotion as possible and if I couldn’t do that I would say sorry Stbx but I’m not ready to have this conversation with you right now. If you really love me you will give me space right now.
x2 with bttrfly

This is the epic Push/Pull dance and not surprising at all. Gordie I have been there and when you just know that the 'talk' is coming as sad as it is what you say is really not that important, they seldom actually hear you, but I have learned its more about your approach and the way you engage in such exchanges. Her pressing for a talk is simply to make sure you are placed firmly on that shelf where she left you and don't you dare move.

I received almost to the letter the same type of text. along with a "Don't hate me because this is a very confusing time in my life right now"

I think just having some bullet points and truth darts on standby is the way to go ... worked for me tbh, there was little chance for my intentions to be misunderstood fog or no fog.

I will not live in an open marriage
I will not be mistreated nor disrespected, and your current actions are disrespectful to me, our marriage and our family.
I will not accept a demotion, nor have any intentions of being your 'friend' ... (I do not keep friends who lie, cheat and steal.)

Your points and truths may be similar ... thing that is important is you say your peace, get up and leave... no screaming, no emotion, no drawn out talks... handle it like a business meeting. You have things to do and a life to move on with and she has some hard decisions to make so you should give her plenty of time to make them.

I know it sounds stern and cold .. but its how you will have to be until she decides she wants to roll up the sleeves and do the work. How this happens is a discussion for later when and if she wants to sit at the "How do I help repair this marriage with you" table.

You are handling all this very well, its a rough thing to go through and even harder this time of year.
Gordie - What is it that YOU want that you believe is achievable.

My son asked me last night what I wanted for Christmas - I asked for a time machine.

My own opinion is that if you want to set yourself free is that you should keep serving up the cake until the agreement is signed and then close the bake-shop. This is not the consensus opinion here though. Closing early seems to have caused confusion and perhaps jeopardized the deal. Be vague and non-committal about the future.

If you truly want to reconcile in the short term, then some hard and tough words as Vapo suggests might be in order. She's not likely to be responsive in a positive way to that though and the clock is ticking. It may cause her to take action herself to put an end to things - but at what cost financially and emotionally and the kids are in the blast radius.

A third path of an "I can't take this any more" from you and moving out into a hotel is an option as well. It shuts down debate, makes things clear.

You need to chart your own path through this and man-o-man is it tough going. None of us are experts at this stuff.

Good luck - we're all rooting for Team Gordie.
What would that discussion bring other than another round of cake?

It is her divorce. Get it signed off on this week as you said. But ultimately there has to be an end to the cake eating (again I remind you I've been trying to get a settlement agreement signed that we had three meetings about and incorporated only what we discussed. It is going on a year now and not a single comment on the draft). So playing nice until you get that signed only works if it can be signed quickly.

She would love to continue forever playing mom, "living" in the house (she already said she wants to live there post-D), and having whomever on the side. When you finally show her that you are moving on, she starts turning back.

Keep showing her. She isn't miraculously fixed and even a promise now not to see OM isn't going to work. You'll just become the marriage police (I did this for 10 months, worst time of my life).

Find that movie dialog 25 is always quoting about you mean I'm supposed to ignore her whether I want to be with her or not.

Unless you can continue what you've been doing indefinitely (cause I think she can), take action and really make her feel the definitive nature of those consequences.
OwnIt has given you excellent advice. Please re-read her posting and then make plans on what you want to do w/your life and the lives of your children. One thing that will need to change, if you divorce, she won't be living under the same roof as you and your family and she will need to face reality and find a place of her own.

They can't have their cake and eat it too. At some point, she's going to discover that the dish is empty and the cake is gone. It's time to start taking away the cake, crumb by crumb.
You know I might completely take the wind out of her sails by saying yes I’d like to talk - it is to our mutual advantage to sign this divorce agreement now. We can discuss your emotional confusion after we sign ...
Yes, Ownit said it best.

My h exhibited a lot of these same behaviors early on as well. I remember going away with friends and he texted me constantly. Had I been sitting 2 inches from him he would have ignored me.

The thing is you can't delay or fast forward this. As you see, the confusion is real. And that's how you know it's not a quick fix. It's all much too bizarre to go away on its own. It's nothing someone can just snap out of!

My h also wanted to talk a lot. He was massively confused and confusing. He said the most outlandish things and had no concept that it was all very off. I found that whatever he said was like a snapchat. It was just a picture lasting for that one moment, then, poof! It was gone. Often times, he did not remember what he said days earlier (and I could tell he wasn't lying).

So, my advice is listen if you want. It will show you where she is at that moment in time, no more.

Sadly, she has to go through this all the way. She either hits rock bottom and wakes up or she remains lost. Each time we try to work with them, we delay the whole thing and the next BD is even worse. I've had 2 BDs. I worked feverishly after BD 1 to make him happy. It didn't work and I was exhausted. BD #2 was much more severe. It taught me quite a lesson though: something was very wrong with him and as Job and others kept saying: it was in him and not all about me/us.

If she presses you, you can always say you need to think about things. There is a very good chance she'll forget to ask again. They can be that foggy.
Thank you all for the live time advice. Gosh, this is harder than I thought it would be. I took it all in and decided I wasn’t going to make myself too available to talk but wasn’t going to avoid her and if cornered, I would listen without sharing my own thoughts. She came home last night and came to my room and yes wanted to talk and I listened. She just talked about light topics, no R talk.

This morning kid3 had an important event. I reminded stbx during the week and this morning. Kid3 reminded her too. It was time to go and no stbx. We arrive and kid3 keeps looking for stbx to arrive. She doesn’t show. Kid3 is sad and I am angry. Stbx arrives as we are leaving and apologizes that she is late and kid3 is just thrilled that she made it at all.

Mid-day stbx is crying and I just give her space and leave the house to run some errands. And then later she thanks me for talking to her last night and she says she loves me and then tells me she is leaving for a sleepover with OM2. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. And I am a mix of angry and sad and frustrated and resigned. No, there will be no 11th hour check change of heart.

Sandi2 told some newcomer that some nice guys move over to MLC because they aren’t willing to face the reality of a wayward wife and do the tough love approach. Is she right? Did I move over to MLC because I was in denial? Is MLC just an excuse?
Gordie:

Everyone questions this, and rightfully so since the "authorities" do not acknowledge the condition. I suppose the other thing that they say is, does it really matter? What matters is that the person she is now is not good for you (and evidently the children).

You need to get the divorce wrapped up, have separate living, focus on you and the kids, and move forward in your life.

Ultimately you will be the one to decide whether she is in your life or not. But I think you've seen that being a nice guy didn't do anything for you (any more than being a doormat did for me).

She isn't someone anyone could love right now. You know this, but you deserve better. The future is unwritten. Just focus on the now, on the one or two things that can get you through each day until the pain and emptiness subside enough to make a real plan for the future.
Gordie - one of the things that I resist but is very easy is putting labels on things. We can call what has happened to us MLC, describe ourselves as "nice guys" etc. And I'm sure that if you looked for validation that those labels fit that it can be found without too much trouble.

Sandi's seen a lot of people pass through this board and knows as do any of us who have been here for a while that so many of the stories are similar as are many of the outcomes.

Would anything that either of us did have changed the outcome? I doubt it. Perhaps it would have been a different path through the foggy woods for us and our former partners, the timelines might have been different, but the destination would have been the same.

It goes against some of the common practices here but for me at least my focus was on being true to myself and being the best "me" that I could be. When I look at the man in the mirror, I am proud of the person I see. I refused to change who I was to appease a partner that in hind-sight I am perhaps better off without having in my life. Will I attract a new partner who will be better for me? No idea.

I think everyone around you has seen you act with integrity and dignity through a situation that would have driven any normal man mad. You have a lot to be proud of.
Ownit and AndrewP,

Thank you as always. You are right that the labels don’t matter. And stbx has accused me of being both selfish and domineering as well as weak and a nice guy. So who the heck knows. AP, I am working on who I am. I do like me. I do wake up with a clear conscience. Thank you.

***

Joutnaling

My standard practice is to turn my phone off at church. After church, I fire it up and am met with missed calls and texts from stbx. Where are you??? Seems like she came home from her sleepover with OM2 and we were all gone and she forgot that we were all at church—the place she used to go to ever Sunday morning of her life until the last year.

Stbx told me previously that she wanted to take the kids out in the afternoon and I said that was fine after church. Well little kids tell me it is another outing with OM2. One tells me he doesn’t want to go. I tell him he has to talk to mom about that. We get home and discuss and she says he can stay with me.

So another week without a signed agreement. I’m going to have to talk to stbx about this.
Geordie, their memory is crap right now. They have so many things going thru their confused heads it isn't funny. You and I cannot understand their confusion. No matter their label, they are confused.

Stand strong my friend. Their is a light at the end of the tunnel, but we cannot see it yet.
Gordie

I did not know Sandi had said that (I do not read newcomers much) but heck .. I may have very well been on of those.

Truth is ... approaches are the same regardless if its MLC/WAW and as others have said its a label. I have posted before in my thread and on others, that I have questioned myself at times by giving her an excuse (MLC label) ... like its an illness she can not help herself, that trauma at 14 is what caused this, her mom didn't love her enough. Is that giving them credit they do not deserve??Did it allow us the LBH to wear the white knight armor .... its a possible thing given all our "Nice Guy" tendencies, all these questions and issues can be debated and should be thought on which helped me dive deep into my own FOO issues and helped me find out why I woke up in that situation in the first place.

Again.. labels simply just do not matter, the pain is very very real and its about where one goes from here now that our reset button has been pressed. In a way I think MLC and what I have learned from it allowed me not to vilify her, in some ways I feel sorry for her and most likely one day she will have to face some demons that started it all, along with all the new ones she consciously and unconsciously invited to the party, this however has been categorized as mot my circus nor my monkeys.
"she says she loves me and then tells me she is leaving for a sleepover with OM2."

This comment above tells us exactly where she is at right now, Gordie..

Emotionally, I suspect not much will change in the next little while. In the longer term, who knows how things may unfold.

But I would focus on getting things signed and sorted and any practical, protective matters ironed out.

She has nothing good to offer you in the shortish term...

Take care and keep moving forward my friend :-)
Sotto x1000
SBJ, Cali, Sotto, Butterfly,

Thanks for keeping me on the right track. Sotto with a gentle 2x4. I love it. And Cali, you are right that the labels don’t matter. She has her FOO issues no matter what you call what she is now doing.

Update:

Well, stbx says she is meeting with L later this week to review and sign the agreement. Let’s see if the actions follow through.

And, gosh, I missed the MLC “try to reel the LBS back in” stage. Yes, folks, that’s where we’ve been the past week. Calls, texts, even compliments on my appearance, and yes, she even tried to start something sexually. And don’t worry, I didn’t respond. I do not want to be in a three way relationship!

One of my kids keeps asking me how mommy and I fell in love. He wants to hear that story. And another declined stbx’s plan to take him to go out with OM2. He asked to stay with me and stbx said okay. I feel so bad for them. I tell them I love them. I give them extra hugs and kisses and time. I hurt for them.
Gordie - you probably know that I'm not devout myself but I do enjoy the Bible. It is full of fabulous stories. It's probably been 25 years since I last read it. I thought I remembered something appropriate and did a bit of searching. I hope you appreciate this verse.

Isaiah 32:2

And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.
Wow Gordie, I do think your W is one confused lady - she is all over the place! Introducing OM to the kids - initiating intimacy with you? My head is spinning...

Rock solid boundaries are critical for you and your family I think - so, good for you on being where you are at with everything.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly with the agreement.

Xx
Originally Posted By: Gordie


And, gosh, I missed the MLC “try to reel the LBS back in” stage. Yes, folks, that’s where we’ve been the past week. Calls, texts, even compliments on my appearance, and yes, she even tried to start something sexually. And don’t worry, I didn’t respond. I do not want to be in a three way relationship!

shocked

Wow. Just - wow!


Originally Posted By: Gordie

One of my kids keeps asking me how mommy and I fell in love. He wants to hear that story. And another declined stbx’s plan to take him to go out with OM2. He asked to stay with me and stbx said okay. I feel so bad for them. I tell them I love them. I give them extra hugs and kisses and time. I hurt for them.


He is trying to figure it out. They all are. But logic and MLC do not coincide. In answer to your previous post question about are you using MLC as an excuse. I suggest you re-read that chapter in DR and then try to answer the question. The first time I read that chapter I stopped part way through, put my head down on the breakfast bar and wept as though my heart would break - mostly because it *was* breaking. It felt as though Michele had been sitting in my family room taking notes on us for the previous few years, getting material to write that chapter. I was terrified because it was the worst case scenario and it took the longest to sort, if it ever did get sorted. For me, I do not question it at all, but many do, and a re-read may clear it up for you.

BTW, you continue to be a rock star. Rock Star!!! xoxoxo all the respect Gordie. Hang in there my friend.
From my vantage point of the last few years, honestly, I cannot say that what I have witnessed is just my inability to accept my h's "bad behavior."

My sisters who have know my h for 2 decades came in the height of his crisis and they were stunned. (Prior to their visit, though I was warning them something was very, VERY off with h, they downplayed it: schedule more date nights, buy some lingerie, tell him to knock it off, etc.). Well, they left singing a completely different tune especially when they saw the paranoia first hand. Back then he wasn't eating my food as he was convinced I was trying to poison him! And yet he kept all his food accessible to me in the fridge and pantry! Duh! If I am trying to poison you shouldn't you lock away your food source?!?

Personally, I think with research "this" (whatever it is) will be classified as some sort of subset of depression/mania. There is research that shows MLCers brains look different during crisis. If children who are sexually abused can bury what happened for decades, why couldn't other trauma be shelved in a similar fashion?

And just anecdotally, I witnessed it all with my very own eyes and journaled it all here. By nature I am a fairly skeptical person; well, I used to be...

Your w shows the massive yo-yoing confusion that is typical. She shows the replay and poor coping skills.

Children need 1 sane parent to pull them through. You can do it! The older ones can know this has nothing to do with them even though it affects their lives so much. The younger ones will lean on you and you'll be their rock teaching them strong coping skills and healthy habits.

Staying away from my h started me on the path to detachment, too. I cut off watching him, analyzing what I thought I was seeing, etc. The nights were rough for me as well. Some sounds are still triggers for me, reminding me of his replay days. Awful!

You are a strong man Gordie. Better days are coming your way...
Quite honestly Gordie, and I may be wrong..... I don't think your W is confused at all. I think she is in some sort of manic phase where she wants it ALL. She wants you, the wonderful loving husband and father, and her OM, a nightly rendezvous without reality. She felt she was losing a part of her fantasy and she was trying to recover it.

How absolutely horrible and selfish and sick of her to say she loves you then that she is going to leave to spend the night with OM?! Her behavior is quite disgusting. And you, Gordie, are a stand-up guy, genuine and true to yourself.

Your wife is very very sick right now. She may never recover. Or she may, but I think by that time, you will not want that back in your life. I am being honest here.

I am very glad your kids have you. And you have your kids. You are a stand-up kind of guy I only wish my H ex H could have been.
Gordie,
I just started at the beginning and read all the way through your story. What a tough situation you are dealing with. Thank you for posting and continuing to journal here. Reading your story and the advice given from everyone is helpful to me.

The texts and calls you have been getting from your wife since going out overnight do seem to fall right in line with the pursuit/distancer dance. Just make sure to stay strong and keep it up. Don't give in. To me, that sounds easy in theory, but when the person I love looks me in the face and says she misses me, its hard to see her for the MLC crazy that she is...I want to see her as the person she has always been up till all this. It is just fear of losing the cake eating. You've been feeling bad and missing her all this time...allow her to feel that way for a bit.
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