My Story - DivorceBusting.com

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Hi folks,

I haven't poked around this board much, so I hope there is room for my story and I can find some mentors/guidance.

I am a queer woman and our relationship structure has been a poly triad for the last 10 years. I have been married to my legal husband (D) for 20 years and the other person (L), a former partner of mine, has been with us for 10 years. There was a split between myself and L last January after a major rupture. D was trying to split himself between both of us.

I came home last September and D gave me a bomb drop and told me he only wanted to be with L. This came out of nowhere for me. I was able to ask him to keep the door open and give a chance to repair, and he reluctantly agreed to leave it open a crack.

The MLC paradigm fits when I read it. L is sort of like the OW. It's complicated in that I condoned that relationship and we all live together.

I love D very much. The last 6 months has found me doing all the wrong things: crying hysterically, pleading, pointing to our great history, telling him that I think he's harming the kids. D has been angry, projecting so much on to me, saying the problems have been enormous for years, it's been all about me forever, living with me is just to hard, it's all my fault, etc. His anger is enormous and bursts out everywhere.

We agreed to have a quiet celebration of our 20th anniversary this past Sunday and, at the end of it, my spidey senses told me something was wrong and I was dumb enough to ask outright if he was planning to re bomb drop me and tell me he planned to move out in the next couple of days. Yes, he was. He says he knows that his block against intimacy is never going to change. He just KNOWS it.

What I find ironic about this is that maybe 2 weeks ago, I found my feet. Like, found my feet and felt grounded and detached and could let him be crazy and moody and depressed and not let it reflect on my self esteem. I started dodging his bombs, the ones he would use after a nice time with me to start a fight. As soon as I felt sane again, it seems, he decided he needs to move out.

And, I argued against it and I told him that he was just getting into his work and I could live with him moving out if we were both doing our work and felt we weren't compatible. I have been doing my work -- you have no idea. Realizing the ways in which I've manipulated to get my needs met, my pursuing behaviours, my high emotionality... so much self learning. But, I am growth oriented and desperately want to stay married. He is avoidant personality and emotional work is so new to him.

So, L is pressuring him, like any OW, to get on with it and move out and sometimes approaches me directly to discuss a separation agreement. I dodge that, but I am trying to maintain a peaceful home environment and not give L any fodder to make demands or upset the peace because, in this moment, he chooses L and I know it. He chooses L because L is an avoidant and never brings forward emotions and he thinks life will be easier. I think it's a fantasy. They've never had a relationship without my presence, and I think so much of what has united them in the last 6 months is their shared projection against me.

In the meantime, D is "thinking" about my request for us to do our work before he moves out. He hasn't gotten back to me (he told me he was moving out on Sunday), and I haven't asked. I did a full 180 with a semi transparent last resort. I told him I was giving him back the reigns and was going to work on expecting nothing. I have proceeded to make a self care plan, exercise plan, and go along as if everything is great. I actually do feel pretty great a lot of the time because I think I've come a long way towards detaching and working on creating my own happiness. D actually commented on Monday morning, after he told me he was moving out, that he "has to admit, you've been a rockstar these last couple of weeks in a way you've never, ever been in terms of managing your own emotions and taking personal accountability." I am just trying to do more of the same.

So, major questions:

1. Any advice on how I handle my relationship with L right now ? We're civil much of the time, do some shared activities and shared parenting. I mostly want to keep them out of my relationship with D and keep the peace. I don't know how to respond to their pressure about moving forward. It's obvious that D didn't tell L that he told me he's "thinking about it" or L wouldn't ask me that question directly.
2. How do I approach any requests for me to engage in a separation process, mediation process around splitting finances. Do I deflect? Do I tell them to talk to my lawyer? How do I manage this without having the two of them against me, giving them any reason to project more on to me, or whatever?
3. How dark do I go? I told D I wasn't going to see his physical affection (i've gotten morning and evening hugs and that's it. He's been sleeping in another room) or his attention. We've been going out once a week to do something fun together, but I know he experienced that as pressure and I'm trying to remove any reason that he can have to direct his anger at me in hopes he'll realize his issues have nothing to do with me.
4. I have a date tonight. We're poly so this isn't a huge deal. I like this person, and I"m going to keep myself occupied. How do I handle this within the house? They've both been hoping I'll meet someone (to assauge their own guilt?) and I think it's a great opportunity to project my own confidence and happiness, but I"m not sure what's the best way.

Thanks all. I know the polyamory stuff might be new here, but please be kind to me. It's rough enough in mid life crisis land and limbo land, especially with the OW character in my house, so please =)

Thanks and looking forward to your kind input

Welcome to the MLC Forum. I'm sorry you are here, but you'll discover a lot of wonderful people post all over the Forum, including this one. Read as much a you can, take away what you can use and leave the rest behind.

I'm pasting in Cadet's Welcome Thread info. Please read the threads because you will discover a wealth of info.

Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
Me-62, D30,S29

Hello, sorry you are here. I am new here and have no insight into the poly thing. I can tell you my H had a 3 year hidden AP. It continued on while I tried to keep him home for almost a year. It seems that shortly after I kicked him out and they were living in her house they couldn't make it last any better and have broken up multiple times with him moving out after only two months. I say this because you are likely correct about them making it work without you. Also, my guess is that two folks in a relationship might be a little boring and predictable for someone potentially dealing with MLC whose had the more exciting dynamic of three or more for so long. That factor alone might be problematic for them. But, at the end of the day, does it matter what happens with them?

Isn't what happens to you far more important? Sounds like you are GAL and already moving on. Be strong, live your life. In time all will be revealed (will they make it work, is one of them MLC, will you be back with one or both, will you find someone "better")? Why not keep doing what you are doing and finding happiness instead of staying stuck?

Go out on your date as though you are giving zero thought to them or what they think. Do it for you. Don't try to make them jealous or rub the person in their faces. Will just come off as desperate.

If you don't want to talk separation agreement tell them you are not ready. They have been planning this and thinking about it for a while. They have each other to talk things through with. You have no one. It is a new development for you and you need time to rationally think through things, meet with a lawyer, etc.

Goes as dark as you need to for you. That is who you are doing it for. Not for them.

Do you want L to be a part of your future? Seems like that answer might determine how you treat her. Given that kids are involved and you don't want to traumatize them, I'd be civil, and even kind if possible. Sounds like your H is taking note of your changes.

Sounds like you are doing a great job and have great instincts. Trust yourself.

I have been GAL'ing for a good portion of the last 6 months. Reconnected with a lot of my friendships that I let lapse, took a rock climbing class [that might not be a GAL since that's what D and I do together for fun, so I took it to bolster my skills], joined a roller derby league (where I met last night's date =) ), got a new job in December which I LOVE and it pays well and gives me a huge sense of identity.

I told them both about asking my date out when I came home from derby, but I never gave them further information because D told me he plans to move out and I went from GAL'ing to a more hard LTR. I did get dressed up and came home a little swoony, but that was genuine. She's so cute - who can blame me. I'm probably not super emotionally available right now, but it's so nice to be reminded that people find me attractive and charming and that I'm confident enough to approach someone.

L and I have been working on a friendship, which is tricky given the enormous conflict of interest. I can't go dark on communication with D, though, and keep L in the loop so I told L I was "going inward" as a form of self care and I hoped they would understand and not feel shut out. L is the biological parent of one of our two children, though we've always considered both children to everyone's children. They will always be in my life, but they've changed so much in the last few years that I don't like them much these days. They've actually begun a transition into a male identity and, as part of that, their personality is really different. It's at this point I should probably mention that D is heterosexual and I don't think fully grasps that L is a man, even though L just started testosterone and plans to grow a beard. I wonder if this pressure on D's identity is just one more piece of what's been happening for him.

D punched a wall in January and broke his hand. Remember when I said that rock climbing was his hobby? He's never done anything like that before. I always called him my rock, my island of stability. And, L took off as they were so freaked out by his display of anger (which happened in a room by himself, not in front of someone) and I went to the hospital with D and subjected myself to his ridiculous abuse because he was anxiously chasing L who was avoiding him, didn't want to be alone, and terrified of the being vulnerable with me but also refusing to take my offers to go home. If I could go back in time, I would have just left him there but I couldn't imagine leaving him alone in that moment.

It's been five days since Sunday, BD #2. Since then, I have gotten exercise every day, journalled everyday which includes writing great things about myself and the trickles of kindness from D (who apologized for taking poor care of me last year when I was in the hospital out of nowhere on Monday morning) and also moments of kindness with L. I have been taking care of my appearance, making my lunches, going to bed on time, ending conversations, and generally being pretty busy and unavailable once the kids are in bed. I'm actually so proud of myself. And, D seems so genuinely confused by my joy -- I'm often singing in the kitchen to myself. I have to admit, I love his confusion. I am pretty sure he expects me to be hysterical so he can justify his decision, but now that I see his game, I am refusing to play. I had some anxious moments yesterday related to L's inquiry about beginning a mediation process, but that was it. And, I just deflected the question and went about my day.

Most of my friends are banging their head that I'm still here, and if this were someone else, I'd be doing the same. The LRT feels like a bit of a "game" which would go over like a tonne of bricks with my feminists friends, so it's so lovely to type without reservation here. But, it gives me back my self esteem and feels like a reclaiming of power. I've been so off balance this last little while that it's amazing to have THEM be off balance. A far cry from coming home one day to be told that my marriage was over in the 30 minute window before the kids arrived home with some ridiculous expectation that I move out by the end of the weekend.

Okay, but if there is a separation, do I take everything I am legally entitled to? I am not "nice" for the sake of reconciliation, right? Because hell no. I sublimated my career for most of my life to his career (he earns over 100K and I make 65K now but retirement outloooks are completely different).

Thanks for the input and support. I definitely need it.

Hi Surv1ve, I'm so sorry you find yourself here and in such a complicated family dynamic as well.

I must say I started off okay with your sitch but I slowly lost the plot when you started talking about D being heterosexual but not knowing that L was transitioning into a man. Does that mean D will get a shock when he finds out that L wants to be a man? OMG I feel like I've entered onto the set of a soap, I'm so sorry!

Also, another thing that is bothering me and Helie touched on this to. If you and D have been in a poly relationship for 20 years surely that's what D likes so why would he now want to be with only one partner, it doesn't make sense. Definitely MLC behaviour.

You are in such a difficult situation my heart goes out to you. You sound like you are trying to stay strong and that must be so difficult when you are all in the same house. I can't imagine what that must be like.

All I can say is try to carry on doing what you are already doing. GAL, do your own thing and be the better option. Sending you hugs ((Surv1ve)).

Talk to a lawyer for sure and it always depends on what state you are in and the law of that state, but barring a prenup or a postnup, the spouses generally share equally in the retirement (assuming a community property state), so it is likely you are entitled to a good chunk of his retirement.

Ultimately you have the make the decision about what you do. i'm getting a definite vibe though that you are planning an exit. In which case, why would you play nice? When my H had an emotional affair I told him I was going to file for D. He begged me not to. I had the good sense to have him sign a postnup. At the time I was and had been for a long time the higher earner. To this day I have a factor of 10 of what he has in retirement. As a result of that one wise decision in an otherwise fog, I am pretty well set up.

Regardless of what happens here, don't be taken advantage of. These folks are pushing you out and I would not count on them having your best interest at heart.

You sound like the poster child for GAL and seem to have a fabulous attitude. Be strong and keep working on you!

D understands that L is transitioning to being a man on an intellectual level, but he hasn't processed it. He himself isn't queer beyond being poly, and I don't think he's ready for what it means emotionally -- as in, one day soon, he will be out with L and someone will assume he is gay. So, while he is aware that L has 1) had top surgery and 2) just started testosterone, I'm pretty sure that, in his head, he perceives L to be a woman who chopped of her chest.

I am not planning an exit, but financial security is really important to me. On one hand, I want to avoid the tense conversations around separation because I know we will have different opinions and, on the other hand, I am unwilling to give away some of what I'm legally entitled to in order to play nice. I feel like actually having these conversations will be the death knell of any chance of reconciliation and I really, really want o reconcile with D.

As to GAL'ing, I can see that letting my life lapse is part of what got me here. I'm a social worker, and I previously worked as an educator in the queer community here. It basically ate my identity and the work was too emotionally hard and, of course, it never ended because I went out socially, I always wound up working... and, the burn out of that role put me in a position where I let my hobbies lapse, my friendships wither, and just moped around the house and was upset all the time. On one hand, I must have been hard to live with and, on the other hand, I know so many social workers who struggle with the exact same issues. So, realizing that I had lost my network, I started rebuilding it.

Now, as a deeper effort to GAL and not allow my wellness to rely on scraps of attention I might get from him, I've stopped coming home mid day for lunch (D works at home and my work is quite flexible) because I "forgot" my lunch in hopes of spending extra time with him. I've begun going to the gym again in the morning bc those 15 minutes of looking at him aren't worth it. Mostly, realizing that the husband I love doesn't exist right now and no amount of hoping for his care or kindness -- or making myself available for it -- is going to help. It just makes it worse. But, I also believe he's still in there and still can't believe this is my life, sometimes. I just need to do that I've done everything reasonably possible, for me and my values of commitment, and for the kids we have which are the light of my life. And, I met this guy on vacation while identifying as a lesbian, married him 9 months later, and moved to a whole other country to be with him. I've always considered that absolutely worth it, but that's how poly evolved for us -- I still wanted to date women. I just can't wrap my head around life without him. Which is part of my "mirror work" is recognizing how much a part of MY identity my relationship with him is and reclaiming my own independence.

What do kids make of the MLC spouse? My kids ask so many questions, so perceptive at 10 and 7, and I try to answer their questions honestly but appropriately. My 10 yo daughter is the spitting image of me physically and emotionally and identifies so much with me. If he leaves me, I think she'll never forgive him but maybe I'm projecting. Her anxiety was so high when I was not doing well and one of the major motivators for me to keep myself sane is because her moods mirror mine so much and, of course, I can't take good care of her when I'm not doing well myself, which is when she needs me most.

And, thank you all. I was pretty sure there would be no room for my story, so I appreciate your efforts to follow this slightly different version of MLC. I keep trying to google polyamory and MLC and all I get is a bunch of folks (mostly dudes) in MLC who think polyamory might be a good thing to try during their crisis.

You know, it is interesting. I have had zero insight into polyamory, homosexuality, bisexuality, etc., but the issues you are having appear to me to transcend minor differences like the gender of the person or the number of people you love. The universal denominator is that you thought you were in a committed relationship (in your case with two people) and you found out the people you loved were not being honest, were not being faithful to your understanding of your shared vision of your family, and were not on your "team" anymore. I don't see this as substantially different from any other story here.

What I finally got from this board in the last couple of weeks, that I haven't gotten from years of therapy, is that I have zero control over what is happening with my H, how our story will end, or what we will be to each other when it does. I think even a few days ago that would have scared me beyond belief.

I now understand that I have 100% control of my feelings, of my actions, and my decisions. I have decided, for now, to do what is recommended here--with the understanding that he may never come back and that if he does I may not want the man who does come back. I think I am finally ok with that. Our lives will likely continue to diverge and at some point they may converge.

I understand that my husband, as another poster so eloquently stated, is not capable of being husbandly now. I have seen that the more I back off, the more he comes forward. Every time I get impatient and start thinking we are coming out the other side, he runs off again. I've had lots of labels for him in the last several years. Some suggested to me by counselors, some I've applied on my own after obsessing about him instead of giving myself that time as you have. I am done with the labels. Maybe he is MLC, maybe he is a narcissist, maybe he is serial cheater or sex addict. Maybe, just maybe, he's just a guy who realized he just doesn't have any feelings for the first girl he ever dated and married at the ripe old age of 21.

I'm so glad you asked about the kids. I so wish there was a thread devoted to the kids. If there is, I just have not found it yet. Mine are 13 going on 14 and days away from 17. We just found out today that my daughter got into a very prestigous program for college. She has one more to hear from before she makes her decision. She is an exceptionally beautiful and talented, old soul bubbling over with emotional maturity. My son is the sweetest and kindest boy you will ever meet.

Their words say that they are done with dad. That they do not love him. That they hate him. That they will never forgive him. Their actions say that they love their dad, that he has hurt them beyond belief, that they would be willing to forgive him if he came back resembling the man that they thought he was. Only time will tell. I try to tell them constantly that his actions have nothing to do with them, and very little to do with me. I tell them that he loves them the best way that he is able to right now. I tell them that he stays away because he is ashamed, not because he does not love them. I tell them I hope that he will improve with time and be able to be more present in their lives. I tell them that while I don't think that I will ever let him come back, that I am unable to say for certain that I won't. I tell them that everyone deserves second, and sometimes third and fourth chances, but that we are not doormats. I tell them to follow their counselor's advice and understand that he may not be able to give them what they want and that they may have to decide if what he can give them is enough. I tell them to understand that who we are today is not necessarily who we will be the day after. I tell them that they are beautiful and smart and that I would not do anything differently in my life and that I would endure all the pain I have because that is what brought them to me. I told them that even though he is flawed, he gave the very best of himself to them. I told them that they don't have to be on my team, that there is no me vs. him. I told them that I am a big girl and can take care of myself and them. I told them that no matter how hard life gets, no matter how much they want to be rid of me or try to shake me, that I will always track them down and I will always be a part of their lives. I remind them every day that I am not going anywhere, that they do not need to be strong for me, and that it is my job as their parent to take care of them. I tell them to let me know when I am not doing my job in the best way possible.

Just love them. Just hold them. Just tell them it will be ok. It may look different than it has. It may change over time. But the love will always be there.

Coly - I realize I didn't answer your question about why D suddenly only wants to be with L. My sense making of that is twofold: D has always been largely unemotional, which I always interpreted as stable and solid. In hindsight, I understand that he's repressed his emotions his entire life and now they're bursting forth everywhere and he has no skills to self regulate them in a healthy way. When L and I broke up, it was coming for a long time. Part of it was that they didn't share their transition with me; I always heard REALLY important pieces of that second hand from other people, and I was really hurt by that. L was also a caretaker and they retracted care when they felt that I was 1) lost in my own world of compassion fatigue/burn out while they were 2) developing a chronic illness (multiple sclerosis). The break up with them feels like an actual break up and not MLC craziness. I saw it coming, and it was me who asked that we stop sleeping in the same room when, after four momths, I wasn't getting anywhere with my concerns and hurts from a giant fight we had.

L and I had done a lot of the emotional labour and caretaking of each other and of the family. No one really had those expectations of D. But, when L and I split up, suddenly we were both turning to D for care and support which increased the demands on him a whole lot -- both in terms of each of us asking him for more than we did before and at the same time. He was moving back and forth between two bedrooms and feeling overwhelmed and consumed by the emotional needs that were quite suddenly being asked of him. So, he repressed -- as I now understand he's been doing his whole life -- and repressed, and repressed, and repressed until he exploded. And, because he's feeling overwhelmed and L had already shut down, he felt he had to choose between us and he chose L who is "easier". Of course, he never talked about ANYTHING he was experiencing and everything was totally fine until one day, a robot had replaced my husband, and that robot was telling me he didn't want to be married to me anymore and he couldn't wait to divorce me and legally marry L.

When I read about MLC, this fits with the conflict avoidant who suddenly can't avoid the conflict anymore and has a melt down. I also realized that his family, who I always considered to to be the Beavers, is not the Beavers. His family is quite reserved and cold even and D obviously never got his emotional needs met as a child and learned that emotional needs result in being ignored, so he shut them down. So, he's never expressed his needs and I've always perceived him to be this easygoing guy who doesn't really care where we eat or where we vacation or whatever and let me drive all the decisions. I spent the first four months psychoanalyzing him, which I am actually trained to do. But, then I read a book called "Love Addiction, changing the way you love" which sort of talks about the love addict-love avoidant cycle, and I had to acknowledge that I saw myself in the Love Addict (and D in the Love Avoidant). It hit me hard, seeing myself in print that way, and realizing how much work **I** had to do on myself. I was pretty tearful for a few days, but then I also felt relieved. I can't make D do his work, but I can choose to do mine which will benefit my happiness long-term no matter what the hell D does. It also explains why my relationship with L collapsed when L developed a chronic illness and no longer had the energy to caretake me in such a huge way and why I felt betrayed when that happened. So, now I'm psychoanalyzing myself.

I understand D through the lens of MLC, through the lens of something called annihilation anxiety (loss of self, being engulfed in the other, having no self boundaries and then exploding) and through the lens of the Love Avoidant. Those things all help me to find compassion for his shitastic behavior. The MLC stuff provides me the most useful guidelines for how to behave in response, and I appreciate all of that. MLC also helps me to understand his Monster behaviour, which has been awful. He talks often about how he can't imagine his life without me and he hopes that we can have a genuine friendship after he moves out/if he moves out. He'll say this on the heels of wondering out loud why he is so angry at me and blames me for everything and I resist (OH SO HARD!) telling him the answers to those questions (BECAUSE I HAVE BECOME YOUR MOTHER IN YOUR MIND AND YOU ARE REBELLING AGAINST YOUR MOTHER) I'm not sure how to respond to that because his moving out betrays every value system I have. I know a lot of folks here are trying to manage MLC after the spouse moves out, and I might change my mind but I'm pretty sure him moving out will be the end of us. I don't think I can tolerate it. Then again, if you could go back and tell former me that I would put up with this behavior from him and still live in the same house and hope he comes around, former-me would tell you that you were off your rocker.

He has been a relatively ok father during this period of time. He struggles more with our daughter -- who is my spitting image -- and sometimes loses his crap when she presents with anxious behavior or tells him that she refuses to wear THAT shirt or she needs X RIGHT NOW. But, he has tries to show up for them and take them on activities, etc. But, the kids were recently playing a game in which 10yo daughter was zapping 7 YO son into different people and then he had to imitate those people. When Daughter zapped Son into "daddy", son said, "Oh, I a am sad. I am angry. I am grumpy. Oh, I actually don't want to be Daddy. Can you zap me into someone else?" So, the kids see the depression/anger and have been trying to make sense of it.

Helious, thank you so much for writing about what you say to the kids. That was super helpful. I want to support them to grow up into healthy adults with secure attachments EVEN when D is being so unpredictable. I want them to keep their hearts open to D. That said, if D moves out, I do want primary custody because D is too unpredictable. L has also been super unpredictable in lots of other ways. I mean, really, with MLC with D and L newly on testosterone, I am basically living with two teenage boys in grown up bodies as they BOTH emerge into new identities in their early 40s.

I just want to stand back and clap for you! You are so in touch with what is going on. When your words are not getting through hand them the rope and see what they do with it. Loving but firm. Available but detached. Kind but strong.

Survive,

Well, I've been around these boards a long long time. There are overlapping themes in your situation.

But there are also a few unique things and I'm going to have to ponder the issue of an OW in the house, with whom you had a relationship and know very well, AND who is also transitioning.

THAT^^ is new for me.

Coincidentally, my youngest child is "non binary" and I put that in quotes for others who may not be familiar with the term. They say they are neither male nor female, or both, and prefer the term "they/their".

Here, I will use "E" b/c that's the initial and it may lower any confusion for readers.

**Oh, around here, the letter "D" usually means "Divorce", "H" means husband. And "L" means lawyer.

So sometimes I was a little confused and had to read your first post again.**

IF it's not too much trouble, maybe you can adjust some abbreviations? Just to help others help you.

Okay so, here are my initial questions. How old are the kids? And are they both your h's?

You say the OW/L is the bio mother of one. Are there any legal documents listing you as a parent?

As for dating...

my thoughts are that we have to be fair to OPs b/c frankly, we have little to offer them emotionally.

If you are totally open with them, saying you really want your marriage to work,

I don't know how that would affect the dates, but if they are okay with it and you know you have been honest, then just make sure it doesn't stop your own work.

A lot of Walk Away spouses (or MLCers) date right away , seeking solace and comfort for whatever bothers them.

And let's face it, it's good for the ego. It also keeps them with an outward focus and "proving" that they are great partners, by looking at the new one.

Not by owning their own crap. I don't sense that you are interested in that behavior.

Lastly, the OW has multiple sclerosis and wants to transition? I'm not a doctor, but that sure seems like a lot of change for a body to handle. Yikes.

Hang in there, and DO see a L. You don't have to retain one. You need "Do" nothing.

B/c knowing your rights is empowering. You may well feel less trapped, and that matters.

If you choose to stay and stand, it'll be from a position of power and choice, not fear.

Make sense?

Survive,
I'll add to 25's thoughts with a bit of my own confusion. From my read, sometimes you are using "they" for D (yes, here it is better to use H) and L as a unit-- or 'they' as in one person who doesn't want a binary pronoun assignment. Is L sometimes "they" or one of your kids "they", or are they both 'they'?

Polyness aside, sounds like 2 people wanting to be together and giving you the boot, with kids involved, which yes, comprises this board for most of us. Hang in there.

A.

Originally Posted By: Surv1ve

Thanks for pointing out where I could be clearer. I'll refer to my legal husband as H and maybe my former partner as my ex/om. Yes, I did refer to my ex/om as they several times as it is the pronoun they actually use, and I know that's super confusing if you're not used to it. I'll try to just use ex/om so it's clear when I'm referring to a singular person versus a group.

25yearMLC: First, thanks for being an accepting parent towards E. My former work was working with youth specifically, and I saw a lot of homeless youth who had very different experiences than your E; an accepting parent is the number one protective factor in long-term wellness for youth whose assigned genders don't match their felt genders. Parents like you made my heart swell a whole bunch.

Thank you for this^^. It's not something I'm consistently supported in. I get a lot of rolled eyes even from people who love me.

Though I suspected E was what I would have termed Bisexual, they did date boys. I won't blame h for whatever "causes" this, but H did make it clear that after our son was done with high school, he was leaving. So 2 remaining daughters at home, including a daughter entering her junior year of high school and an 8 y/o, was simply not important enough to stick around. E was 8.

I know both of my d's wondered what would have happened if they had been male. Would dad have stuck around THEN...but we all know, there's no great answer and it is what it is. I only know both daughters were deeply wounded and to this day, do not feel close to him. He created the very alienation that later bothered, then angered HIM...
ANYHOW, I digress. Sorry.

As to the MS and transitioning, it actually is a really great choice. Testosterone is a protective factor against the degeneration of MS; in fact, in some significant cases of progressive MS, they are offering testosterone as a treatment option for women with MS even though it will have a lot of unwanted impacts. The ex/om is transitioning because they want to, but the potential to slow down their MS (diagnosed in 2012) is an added benefit.

Well dang, I've learned some medical stuff today!

Where I live, the definition of parent is very generous and very clear. ANYONE who has behaved towards a child with the intentions of parenting is considered a parent and has the legal responsibilities (child support) and rights (access) to that child.

My name is listed on all the school documents, the doctor's offices, etc. We're quite known in the extended community - our family raises a few eyebrows, and I often meet people in the community who say, "OH, I HEARD ABOUT YOUR FAMILY. The poly triad raising kids!" Many of my friends have sent me this article which you might find interesting: http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/03/ex-polyamorous-trio-granted-tri-custody-by-new-york-judge.html I have seen a L once, and they confirmed I had nothing to worry about re: my non-bio kid. H is the bio father of both, yes. Bio kid is daughter, age 10 and non bio kid is son, age 7.

I will read the New York link (I am a L, but a nice person :D) and if you have not adopted the other child, I'm relieved but a little paranoid. You're on the documents like any guardian would be, but that's not quite adoption...Not to freak you out, but this is a great time to dot those i's and cross the T's...

The L also laid out for me the differences in what I can expect as a married spouse verus what ex/om can expect as a common law spouse. Our region recognizes that you can have a legal spouse and a common law spouse simultaneously, but it usually happens when someone has left a married partner and not gotten legally divorced yet.

Polygamy is not recognized in any state in America. Being the married spouse is definitely better for you financially. Glad you went to see the L

Legally, I'm in a much better position than ex/om in terms of asset division; I hear from both of them an expectation that I forego a lot of what I'm legally entitled to in the interest of "fairness", but other than the value of the house, we've never discussed any of this. The way I see this is: this is not the decision I want, and I don't intend to be financially insecure by choice in some weird version of "fairness" to play nice.

Playing nice (giving up legal rights??) means risking your future security - and will likely yield you nothing from them. I seriously doubt they'd even utter the word "thanks" b/c in your h's mind, HE deserves it, not you.

Being calm, upbeat and having a PMA is the best approach for saving the m, but it has nothing to do with what the law awards you. I told my h that whatever the lawyers worked out was....how it goes...it's not "MY law" or 25's new groundbreaking law, just the formula they apply to our situation. Try hard to keep conversations between the Ls and not between you. I don't know anyone from a long m, who could work something out on paper and benefit the chance of a recon.

I also know that these conversations will be VERY TENSE. In one Monster moment shortly after BD #1, H actually implied that if I expected spousal support he would deny me access to my non-bio son. I told him that 1) the law was on my side and 2) since when did the law define our family. "It's not fair," he said, "that I would have to pay you so much money." "My living standard will fall far more than yours," I said, "So, you're right; Patriarchy isn't fair."

touche...

As to dating, I would only date other poly people and would never, not ever, deceive someone into thinking I was single or more emotionally available than I am. In some moments, it seems like physical affection, touch, and OTHER FUN might be a nice distraction but I also worry that it might be too distracting and take me away from my own journey. If I have to go through this hell, by god, I will come out emotionally richer on the other side. FOR ME.

YES, may as well get our money's worth!.

Pain is the touchstone for great spiritual growth, or bitterness. In the end, it really is our choice.

So, H tells me how important my friendship is to him if he moves out. What do I say to that? Part of me wants to say, "I can't imagine I would want to be friends with you if you moved out," which is my truth. What do I say that he won't experience as pressure but also doesn't let him off the hook?

To an extent all WAS's get off the hook for now. You're trying to save the m and so far, he's not.

Remember this hard lesson I learned form Vernetta, my DB coach. (A Godsend if I ever met one)

See, it's not your job to teach him lessons (keep him on the hook). Life will keep him on the hook. Not your job to show him the consequences of his behavior. Life shows them consequences.

I know I wanted to enforce rules and punish H under the guise of holing him acountable but it was more or less me appointing myself in charge of doling out penalties.

But that just fueled his negative images of me AND the worse he felt around us, the more he fled. Your h won't slap his forehead and suddenly get it, because you remind him of a failure...he'll take the shame and convert it to blame - on You.

I'm not saying to cover for him, but know that him feeling guilt tends to make them lash out, not run home.

What to say about being friends...

You say "well, Maybe..." in a disbelieving way,

OR "well Maybe, but not for a long time from now". It's not you being punitive, it's you detaching and sure, it may also give him something to miss.

Which is also why the interactions you do have with him, must be designed to do that. Give him something to miss. H won't miss you asking him WHY??!! or "HOW CAN YOU DO THIS??""""

Believe me, I asked my h 3492441 times...and never got a "good" answer. It tends to elicit a defensive reaction. Lose the anger in front of him. BE lower maintenance and handle your depression and other issues, on your own. Check into EE too.

So, today's story of wtf. Daughter participates in a fundraiser for a charity that's very important to her and she looks forward to this bowl-a-thon ALL YEAR LONG. H said he would go with me last week bc it's so important to daughter. This morning, he was all stompy and passive aggressive and mopey while verbally saying he was going to go. I hemmed and hawed over what, if anything, to do before I decided to address it. "What are your reasons for going to the bowlathon today?" I asked. "I'm expected to." "Well, you're not. Your body language says you don't want to go, so make a decision to either go and show up for your daughter or decide not to go and go engage her in a conversation with her about it. I want your support today, but this (his passive aggressive behaviour) isn't worth it. I'm opting out of your destructive patterns and don't want to be around you" So, he talked to her about it and promised her that he would put her to bed tonight with story time. And, I got to not be the jailer and not manage their relationship. Then, of course, because it's his "date night" with ex/om, be cut her stories short (shakes head). UGH.

But, this is a community event that many of our extended friends attend and I had a great time chatting with all sorts of people and I brought a friend home to hang out with me for the evening.

Tomorrow is derby and then going rock climbing with H and daughter. Rock climbing is pretty consistently a great time even when H and I go on our own. He's really proud of how hard I've worked to overcome my fear of falling and he actually gets really into me climbing and cheers me on pretty enthusiastically. In those moments, I get to see a peek of the person I married. He also gets to do a lot of climbing he can't do without a partner, so I try to keep the activity on the table and I steer away from anything stressful.

Thanks again for reading.

Wow, this is some great stuff from 25!

Thanks for explaining your situation Surv1ve and I apologies for asking so many questions. Hope you are having a good weekend?

I know my H is being coached by a friend who left his wife of 17 years to go live with his gf in the US shortly after their 13yo child identified that they were actually a boy. I have pretty much never forgiven this guy, and I know that's who my H is reaching out to. UGH.

I'm actually in Canada. While Canada doesn't recognize polygamy, either, it doesn't unrecognize it. Actually, our region just recognized the possibility of having up to 4 parents on a birth certificate, which is new this year. It wouldn't hurt to see if we can do that with the children retroactively.

The stuff about the response to friendship was great. While I intellectually know that I need to back the heck off and not be the puppet master, all the ways in which that show up are super hard to comprehend. H for sure sees me as the judge or something. A disbelieving maybe, I can pull that off!

Coly: It has been a good weekend so far. I went out with a friend on Friday night for dinner, had the bowl a thon yesterday, and have some planned activities for today. I've been keeping super busy. How about you?

I wanted to send this privately to 25, but it seems there are no private message? Or, I can't because I'm new. Anyway,

25 - I want to give YOU a pep talk re your parenting. It isn't a choice for E. Gender is complicated, and lots of other cultures before colonialism have words for way more than two genders. Those trans kids taught me so much, and they blamed a lot of their experience on colonialism. Every once in a while, it is a phase. And, I mean 1 time in 10,000. Lots of kids know when they are 5 or 6 when their felt genders do not match, but it takes a long time to articulate if it's never been provided as an option that maybe they are not a boy or a girl. But, EVEN IN THE RARE CASE that it's a phase, you are protecting your relationship with E right now and communicating that you will accept E no matter what. That is so important. Also, poor E must be struggling so much with internalizing the blame for your H's atrocious behavior. Oh, I am hostile on your/E's behalf and so sorry!

As a note, I wonder if you've considered supporting E with access to hormone blockers to prevent the onset of the biological markers of their sex hormones? This option is so rarely even know about so I wanted to mention it. Hormone blockers basically delay puberty and, if they were ever discontinued, puberty would just start again. This can prevent a lot of the visible markers that mark people; e.g., a person assigned male at birth won't develop the wide jaw, large hands, and broader shoulders that will mark them as male if they identify as a woman. Or someone assigned female won't develop chest tissue/hip shape that marks them as a woman. Opting out of environmental microaggressions can make the rest of their lives easier. For people who will later go on estrogen or testosterone, having access to hormone blockers through adolescence will make the rest of their lives a whole lot easier. (This kind of stuff was the basis of my former role, but whenever I went to something like the bowl-a-thon I went to yesterday, which is a queer community event, I would be descended upon by everyone wanting me to work. Same as doctors and lawyers, I'm sure!)

We can't send things via private messaging on any of the forums here. We aren't allowed to share any of our personal data here such as, email addresses and/or phone numbers, per the policies of the Forum, as well as, sharing links to other sites, etc.

Here's a paragraph from the policies of the Forum:

"This is a public forum. Exchanging private contact information with other users is not allowed. Our purpose in making this On Line Community available to you is to offer you a place to publicly give and receive Divorce Busting help, and to support one another in saving your marriages and keeping your families together. It was never our intention to provide a means of privately connecting with others via the internet. There are many other sites where that is encouraged. This is not one of them. We are here to help and support you via this public forum."

Sorry!

No worries! It just feels off topic, but felt like a place where I could share some of the things I know a low about =)

[quote=Surv1ve]I know my H is being coached by a friend who left his wife of 17 years to go live with his gf in the US shortly after their 13yo child identified that they were actually a boy. I have pretty much never forgiven this guy, and I know that's who my H is reaching out to. UGH.

I relate to wanting to slap that father, but I also remind you to not go there. You are in no position to forgive/not. Besides, what struck me in that fact pattern (& I'm sure it wasn't in a vacuum, b/c after all, he had a gf!),

is that the h fled his son's transition b/c he feared he somehow failed and wanted to avoid blame at all costs. Interesting that he'd prefer being known as a father who abandoned his child, than the father of a trans kid. Lovely...

IRONICALLY, your h claims to prefer a transitioning male...but he's also not gay, ro doesn't want to be seen as if he is...yeah, um, okay.

Talk about wanting someone he fantasizes will be lower maintenance. The only thing lower maintenance is that your h won't have to go out and date to find his "true" love. Sheesh...SMH (shaking my head).

I'm actually in Canada. While Canada doesn't recognize polygamy, either, it doesn't unrecognize it. Actually, our region just recognized the possibility of having up to 4 parents on a birth certificate, which is new this year. It wouldn't hurt to see if we can do that with the children retroactively.

Well, in the US, you can add them retroactively.

But Do what you do FOR YOU, not anyone else. I assume you'd have to get OW/OM permission (I can't find your post with the label for them, as I post this, so forgive me if I've used the wrong term).

But you could authentically say that putting your name on it obligates you legally to each child. Which is true. No need to allow them on your bio childs certificate IF you fear sharing custody too much.

IF that is not a fear, then go ahead - b/c it obligates all named parties on the certificates, to support those children. And it entitles them to visitation or shared custody, as well. (Absent being unfit).

What do you need/want most, CS or primary custody? What are the risks involved in either approach?

The stuff about the response to friendship was great. While I intellectually know that I need to back the heck off and not be the puppet master, all the ways in which that show up are super hard to comprehend. H for sure sees me as the judge or something. A disbelieving maybe, I can pull that off!

In the WAS mind, terms like "negative spouse = Judge = disapproving parent = harshest critic -their shame.

THOSE^^ are views the WAS often has of the LBSer, along with "too needy = demanding = never content with the WAS"....

In fairness, We LBSers do tend to use parental tones with spouses we feel are in MLC, and that is to be avoided. MY DB coach hammered this into me a lot.

She said to "Lose the anger in front of h (totally ineffective and fuels their negatives) AND Lose the parental tone."

First, the parental voice is not the voice of a lover.

Second, as hard as it is to believe or accept, it's Not a spouses job to teach lessons of life, or show them the consequences of their choices. LIFE DOES THE TEACHING...which I repeat for emphasis.

I had to write it down and read those "notes to self", often.

Oh, I don't mention the friend my H is talking to. They were monogamous until he entered what I now see as MLC and asked his wife to try poly and then left her six months later.

As to my H thinking the EX/OM is "easier", I shake my head. You have no idea. Their health WILL continue to plummet, transitioning is incredibly challenging, and they turn their anger inwards by engaging in anorexia and self-harming behaviours. A lot of their demands to move out immediately have been expressed by saying their suicidal and they have a choice to move out or die. I mean, the emotional blackmail is unreal. And, then asking me why, when I learned they were suicidal, why didn't I jump to help them move out. But, "easier".

If I had to choose between child support and primary custody, I would go with primary custody. I don't trust either of them with my D10. She's highly sensitive and anxious, and they're not super patient with her. They make good coparents but I can't imagine her in a house that I'm not in. I'm her anchor. My S7 is easier to caretake and is bonded strongly with both EX/OM and me, but I wouldn't want to see the two separated. I will stay in the house, and I think keeping their space will probably be comforting. But, the laws are pretty fierce here and he can't NOT owe my child custody. He can not pay it, for sure, but he will have to owe it to me.

Yes, H very much views me as the never happy, always critical, etc. I am trying hard to give him nothing. We just returned from climbing today, and he managed to throw me off my game for a minute and I just went to the bathroom (for too long) and did a whole lot of deep breathing in a stall. I did wind up addressing what bothered me and I wish I'd just shut it. But, I got out of my momentary funk and just focused on my D10's climbing efforts.

My H told me last Sunday that he intends to move out soon. I do not really believe him, especially given that he is pretty low energy most of the time and the amount of work it would require for him to move out is pretty high. All of the tasks related to moving out are things that would normally fall to me to organize (looking online, calling people, the emotional labour, etc.). But, as a result of that, I did a great job of engaging in full on detachment for the rest of the week and implementing a harder LRT. I kept busy, started working out, prioritized self care, and all the right things. I also actually felt happy, REALLY HAPPY, in many moments; I would even say I felt flooded with joy on Saturday morning. It's so great to realize that I can actually meet my own emotional needs once I realized that seeking support/care from him is a cheeseless tunnel right now.

And, then, on Sunday, we had a bit of a hard interaction. We were rock climbing with our D10. I had asked him to coach me up a wall. Rock climbing has been this great, fun space for us that has been accessible even when we were really upset with one another. I love how into my climbing he gets. So, I went up the wall and he was coaching me and then... he was gone. I was on an auto belay, so there was no safety issue. I felt quite hurt, and I was surprised by how hurt I felt. I took a deep breath and then "went to the bathroom" to recollect myself. We had a brief discussion about it -- I tried to keep it superficial and it seemed sort of awkward.

We have been spending Sunday nights together, historically. So, after the kids were organized, he engaged me in a conversaation about the afternoon and we debriefed together. He was a human being in that conversation, took some accountability, and seemed committed to ensuring our time together was positive. He said, "I think I'm going to go hide downstairs now, because sometimes after we have fun together, we fight and I don't want to do that. But, maybe tomorrow, when you get home from work, we can play the video game together."

I told him that I had already thought we shouldn't spend anymore time together, thanked him for debriefing, and wished him a good night.

So, today, I am "on call" which means I work later than usual. H works from home and we had the morning at home together. I found myself hoping for his time and attention, and I found myself disappointed when it wasn't available. I engaged him a couple of times, but when he pulled a passive aggressive glare at me, I backed all the way off. I realize that detachment was easy when I was just avoiding him altoghether, but I'm not sure how to STAY detached when he's nice to me/reminds me of the man I love (who is in there somewhere?). How do I accept great interactions without allowing myself to expect anything?

Sorry you are here, but welcome.

As for how to how you accept the good interactions, without expecting more while he is in-house? Try thinking of him as a house guest and treat him accordingly. If you can reframe him as a guest your expectations will be drastically different.

Nice job on the self care.

Survive,

Your situation sounds awkward but at least you still interact. That means he'll see your GAL and pull back.

As for how to detach...I only know one way. ( I mean, aside from the cognitive work you seem to be doing already.)

And it's by GAL. I know it's hammered here a lot b/c it works) but it's because GAL means filling your time with things other than obsessing and pining. It feels better to GAL and almost immediately helps you get to the "other side" of this.

Plus it gets us out with new people who don't all know your situation, or remind you of it.

And getting out of our comfort zones really is a growing thing.

Pain is the touchstone of spiritual growth

or bitterness and victimhood. In the end, it's our choice. I know you're on your way.

I missed your original thread about the kids ages and background issues. I'll try to track it down. What would he say if he were here? And whatever he says, if you think some of what he says is valid, have you started to work on those pieces? Not for him, but b/c you want to become the best you that you can be.

Have you consulted with a L? You don't have to retain them, or "Do" anything, just get some info. Knowledge really is power.

And keep on keeping on.

((( )))

If he were here, he would say

1) I am too controlling
2) I'm selfish and my needs always come first
3) I rely on him far too much to get my emotional needs met. Way too needy.
4) I don't take no for an answer
5) He's tired of having to ask me for permission to do things
6) I don't do my fair share around the house

I've always perceived him as easy going, and so I just make all the decisions because he never has any input. Where do you want to eat? "I don't know." So, I just start suggesting things. Turns out he's just been repressing a whole bunch of emotions.

Yes, I have done some hard work on those pieces. It's super painful. I know I let my network/social life/hobbies collapse when I was experiencing compassion fatigue as a social worker. I also realized that my story of overcoming a very difficult childhood is very much tied into my relationship with him, so part of my reaction was the total loss of my identity and the concept of being a survivor being placed at risk. I've rewritten that story, GAL, re done a lot of my friendships, and owned that I am probably a love addict according to one of the 1 million self help books I read. Specifically, maybe NO ONE can live up to my standards of an intimate relationship, especially not a love avoidant, and that I need to have much lower expectations of others. I cannot expect unconditional positive regard from anyone all the time. The other super painful piece I got from my therapist was that I am so uncomforable with anger (see childhood issues =) ), that no one who gets close to me ever shows me anger. And, a lot of people who never show anger is because they have no selves, no boundaries to get angry about, so I have to get comfortable with modulated anger (god, is THAT scary). Today, I had an A-HA moment about H's passive aggressive behaviour - because he verbally would never admit he was angry, because I wouldn't tolerate it so he acted passive aggressively but then denied he was angry. That, of course, made me feel crazy and then I needed to have 1,000,000 conversations with him to try to figure out what the heck was going on. He seems to know I'm doing my work. He said to me yesterday, "You've been so happy lately, so ridiculously happy, it makes me want to read whatever book you've been reading." I talked about realizing I am capable of meeting my own needs and the neuroplasticity of the brain is focusing on the positives through gratitude.

I also think that, in the past, I've let big emotions prevent me from doing my adult responsibilities too often. During this crisis, I've had to do lots of things no matter how shitty I was feeling. I know he has felt that things fell to him unfairly when I was struggling emotionally. I'm trying really, REALLY, hard to do the things I say I will do NO MATTER WHAT and to be cautious about making commitments.

I am doing those things for him, but I'm also not doing them for him. I reframe to myself all the time that these things will make me happier no matter what happens in the future. I am trying to not initiate the conversations related to my inner work with him because I don't want him to think I'm trying to "prove" anything to him, but it's so hard because I'm also fascinated by everything that I read. I'm so glad I'm a social worker because all of this attachment stuff, codependency stuff, interpersonal neurobiology, and positive psychology will come in so useful for work, too!

My kids are daughter, 10 and son, 7. Great, great kids. Light of my life. Kids seem to be managing pretty okay, but I worry about them.

I did see a L a while ago, but I will need to go see another one. Unfortunately, the L I saw is the president of the board at my new place of work, so I have to find a new one. Too bad, I really liked her. But, I really like the idea of saying that they can talk to my L and leave me out of it. I can even say that I find it too overwhelming and don't trust myself to make good decisions in this moment re finances, so I am taking my lawyer's advice on all issues. Yes! Then I can avoid mean, icky conversations, whew. I'll get in touch with a new lawyer this week.

Tomorrow, I go climbing with EX/OM. EX/OM is far more likely to try to push me on these issues and I'm trying to figure out how to navigate that. It's obvious that H didn't tell them that he is "thinking" about continuing to live with me. Even if he's just stringing me along, he didn't tell EX/OM that, and I don't want to tell EX/OM who might then push him to be "more clear" with me. Or be seen as trying to break down their trust. So, maybe deflect and just say that I want to keep things light and happy and allow us a chance to have fun, social time together that supports our long-term relationship.

Random thing of the day: H told me that it was "sexy" that I was cleaning the cat boxes as a way of thanking me for making sure it got done. He said it twice. I sort of ignored it and just acknowledged that I have finally realized I need to ensure I create systems for myself because I have a terrible (ADHD) memory.

Surv1ve,

I have merged your two threads together. Please stick to one thread until you've reached 100 postings/replies. It makes it easier for our readers and you to follow your situation.

Thanks!

Can do! I'll make time to find and read the board etiquette!

Don't worry about it. As long as I can manipulate the data on this forum, I'll merge the threads, etc., when I see them.

I have a question for you folks.

Easter is coming up. We typically spend at least one portion of Easter at his parents' home. We were there in February before BD#2 and it was a rough go for me. Our previous agreements were that we "act normal" and that I can access both H and EX/OM for support for the management of anxiety that comes up at his parents' home. Last time we went there, they both violated this agreement.

I realize I will be asked to go to the parents' house for Easter. The parents are accepting of our family and they have good relationships with both EX/OM and me. On one hand, I could just skip it and save myself an awkward experience or I could go and try to play super happy for 5 hours (god, that sounds like a lot of work right now), or I could say that I would rather spend Easter somewhere else given my previous discomfort and their violation of our agreements. His parents' are generally reserved and cold, and I'm also trying to do LRT right now.

Do I go and play happy?
Do I skip it and send the kids without me? If so, what explanation do I give?
Do I decline and say I would rather plan to take the kids here and I'm just not interested this year?

What does an LBS spouse do with awkward inlaw experiences? In laws know something is going on bc H broke his hand on the wall and EX/OM freaked out and brought the kids there and also slept the night that night but they don't "know the details and don't want the details".

Thoughts?

And thank you all of you!

I would not go for the sake of helping them project a happy family when it is an unpleasant experience for you. My kids are older so they have communicated to me that they were well aware there were problems in the marriage before anything became known.

If the kids are not yet aware, I'd go for the sake of one last holiday with everyone. However, it seems you have some kind of issue with his parents (as evidenced by needing both partners to help you handle your anxiety last time you went?). If so, I suppose you could just tell the kids a fib like you have a headache or some such and let them all go off without you.

Holidays without your kids sadly are a part of divorce.

What do you want to do and what's best for your kids? Can you go and be prepared to not have any support? I had a similar situation when W dropped a bomb on me just before we were supposed to go to step in laws for Christmas. It was awkward but I get along w/them very well so I didn't have that issue. Step mil knew something was wrong and I ended up talking to her a lot at the beginning of everything.

I think either way is understandable, I've been there, but if I could go without the need for support and focus on myself and kids I'd go. Show them it's not you and enjoy your kids. Don't take that experience away from yourself.

The kids know that there is "something" but they don't know the details. I still think they'd be shocked if there was an actual splitting of houses, but I could be wrong. I'm still hoping to never find out for sure =).

The anxiety at the in law's house relates to being "normal" and not having them aware and, at the same time, things feel so different and being afraid to have an big emotion in a space that isn't my home. In the last month, I've settled in and think I would be more likely to get through it able to project okay and maybe even feel okay. I'd probably also book fun time with a friend for after to make sure I had a safe place to land.

I've been pretty tempted to talk to my in laws about what's going on because there have been no divorces in his family and I think they'd be horrified, but I'm not sure that's a good move or not. I also wonder if his dad had an MLC as they are similar and how he got through it. But, I guess I feel like it isn't my place? And, I don't know if it would be helpful or not.

My latest and newest questions: My H is doing the usual MLC thing of telling the OW (or, in this case, the EX/OM ) one thing and me another. I know it's his ambivalence and that he's probably not a real person with ANYONE. I think EX/OM still takes him at face value, and he tells EX/OM that he is going to move out or whatever he says. Goodness knows. Anyway, EX/OM keeps trying to approach me directly about a settlement to which I keep saying, "I am not ready to talk about that. I would go see a lawyer if I were you."

I go out with EX/OM on Tuesdays to a climbing gym. This is supposed to be pro bonding time. EX/OM asked me directly why we weren't talking settlement yet since BD#2 on March 20th. For better or worse, I said, "By the fact that you ask me that, I can see that H is still telling us two different things. No one should be surprised by that." That's as much sh*t as I want to stir, though. I'm not sure how to navigate my relationship with EX/OM in trying to keep the peace, be willing to repair the damage between us, and not allow EX/OM to push me on this. I also continue to expect H to direct any anger received from EX/OM on to me and so I make myself scarce after anything tense with EX/OM. I believe that time is definitely my friend and, while H might move out now if forced, the more he sees the new me, the more confused he is. He is responding well to my GAL and semi LTR and is way more relaxed. H and I had a really nice time together on Sunday climbing. I am actively appreciating his house contributions and he seems to puff up each time. I know he wants to be liked by me and seen as "good".

I still am terrible at turning down invitations from H or cutting the night short. It's hard, but I need to work on it. I hope it counts that I make so much effort to be out of the house before he wakes up (to the gym!) and to be focused on the kids during the afternoon/evening.

Breathing.

Thoughts on navigating my relationship with the EX/OM definitely welcome. Part of me thinks it's probably great if they go anger bomb/pressure the husband but, I guess, in the end, what EX/OM does is up to EX/OM and how H responds is also not mine. All I can do is try to figure out my path and walk it.

So, here I am again. I think I may need a coaching session if people have recommendations, as it is so hard to navigate.

EX/OM keeps trying to push me on the separation talk. I don't want to engage in it because it's a super negative conversation with bombs. I keep encouraging the EX/OM to go and get a lawyer and leave me out of it.

EX/OM tried again on Monday and I said my usual "can't, get a lawyer, too much, need time." So, we have family meeting on Wednesdays where we used to discuss logistics and emotional issues. After BD#1, I cut the emotional out because it felt like 2 against 1 (well, it IS 2 against 1). So, this Wednesday, just before the meeting started, H slumped in his chair and looked tired. I have come to recognize that body language as an expression of anxiety. I asked him if something was wrong and he said all was fine. Then EX/OM comes in and I could tell from the way they positioned themselves in the room that there was a planned attack coming. I calmed went through the logistics and tried to close the meeting down, as usual, by saying, "Did I miss anything?"

H says, "Yeah, EX/OM has been talking about wanting to move out for a long time and we need to have this conversation."

MAY DAY MAY DAY MAY DAY

1. Against my stated boundary re: emotional topics before bed. I did originally suggest we find another time for emotional topics and when no one scheduled it, I left that alone.
2. I have explicitly many times said I want you to go see a lawyer.
3. H obviously lied to me.
4. COORDINATED ATTACK.

I immediately said, "I did not agree to this conversation and I am feeling ambushed. I will be going to my room now."

But, the next day, I woke up super angry. So I went to the gym. And, I was still angry so I called H and wanted to set boundaries. He asked me what the barriers to having that conversation were and I told him that 1) we have unfinished conversations 2) I can't have that conversation with both of them 3) I don't trust him and I would be a fool to trust him so he can either earn my trust or we go through lawyers because his behaviour has just not been trustworthy. He seemed pretty horrified at the idea of going through lawyers, and I just shrugged and said, "I deserve to feel safe, and I am not going to put myself in a vulnerable situation where you can manipulate me and bully me into a financially difficult situation." That conversation went ok and he wants to talk for a bit on Monday. I'm scared but there was a commitment to keep it low intensity. And, he did say, "I only wanted to talk about if we still need to separate in 6 months what that might look like." So, there's a crumb of hope in there (IS LTR WORKING???!) but I also wouldn't put it past him to manipulate me to get me to show up. He, of course, also was interfering in my relationship with EX/OM who brought my refusal to H and then H was willing to escalate it and I told him to stay out of my relationship with EX/OM.

I also tried to set boundaries with EX/OM about my explicit "I cannot" and their use of H to bring it forward again. They basically said they've been waiting a long time to have that conversation and that they would bring it up whenever they felt like it. So, I wrote them both an instant message that said I was re-explicitly stating a boundary, legal channels are available, I am unwilling to be engaged in this conversation re: separation and that I need time and a sense of safety. I then wrote that I would be documenting any further violations of this explicit boundary as a form of harassment. I mean, a boundary needs to have consequences and the consequences can't be that I run to my room and away from family space all the time.

So, H is "mad at me" and thinks I was "too firm" and "too uncooperative". EX/OM is in a tizzy and slumped out the front door this morning like someone died and then H made a big deal of going to the front door and giving them the most supportive "poor baby" hug ever. Make me want to vomit. UGH.

I tried really hard to pretend like all was well and went about my life next to H as he was working from home and I started work at 1, but I was feeling pretty anxious and having a hard time. When he is angry with me, I want to crumble.

Did I do okay? Do you have any suggestions? God, this is so hard to navigate.

Hey Surv1ve, sorry you are having a tough time at the moment.

IMHO, the more annoyed you get with both H and Ex/OM the closer together you push them. Sending that text to them both about boundary setting has given them the opportunity to form a united front against you as experienced when H ran after Ex/OM to comfort them. I think you are inadvertently causing a you against them situation.

I would pull way back in interactions with Ex/OM and maybe concentrate on your relationship with H. I think you are going to have to start accepting that H will move out and talk to him about what this will look like. Only talk with H about this and then he and Ex/OM can talk about their own logistics.

Unfortunately Ex/OM is going for the woe is me sympathy card and you are playing right into their hands.

((Surv1ve))

Thanks, Coly. I definitely appreciate the feedback. I mostly try to play nice with EX/OM to demonstrate that I'm "not the bad guy" and that's why I keep the shared activities with them.

I haven't said I'm unwilling to talk logistics, I've said I'm unwilling to discuss finances and custody without a lawyer. The first time H brought up separation, he threatened to prevent me from accessing my non-bio kid was a terrible threat with no foundation in law. I just don't want to allow him to push my buttons in such a sensitive situation. I can't stop them, but I also don't want to "poison" our already teetering relationship with these talks that will likely be awful.

I definitely don't want an us/them situation and I thought I was doing okay but was just so stunned when they coordinated to trap me into a conversation. And, I have no idea how to handle the move out convo with H.

Thank you for responding Coly. It is so confusing to try to figure out how to navigate.

Hello everyone,

I will likely use this space for journaling some and I love all and any feedback. I'm also trying to pop over and read other people's threads, but I also have so much homework to do.

Easter went okay. I went. I tried more of those boundaries with consequences things and I told EX/OM that if they were rude to me at H's parents house or told a story that cast me in a bad light, I would address it immediately right where we were. H got a littler stressed but EX/OM actually stated they appreciated boundaries. During the actual visit, EX/OM mostly hid upstairs and did homework, which was fine. I felt lonely a lot during the day but I tried to project calm and then H and I went climbing that night (and knowing that we would got me through the day). Interestingly enough, H was offered a free hockey playoff ticket to go with his dad and his uncle to that night's hockey game and he declined it without hesitation. I was sure he would cancel our afterplans, which were helping me to cope. When I thanked him later for it, he was quick to tell me that he realized all the talking and negotiating he would have to do to go to that game and the hassle wasn't worth it. Often, when I try to show appreciation, he finds a way to tell me that it actually wasn't something nice he was doing FOR ME. But, I persist.

And, a community member died suddenly last week. Someone whose presence has made our family's existence just that much easier. From that moment, I asked H for care and I journalled the below:

I asked H for care while all full of emotion with the reality of mortality staring at me. He freaked out and had a panic attack. Then, he stomped around the house and he huffed and he puffed and then told me he was still thinking about it. I went upstairs and I waited and finally came down for supper.

He essentially said he couldn't. I mean, part of me wanted to ask him to move out on the spot. What kind of person is this?

ME: You always say you want to be my best friend. So, act like it. Here's your chance to do something. Show up for me.
H: I want to. I want to, but I can't.
ME: Somewhere in there is the H that loves me.
H: I believe that too. Believing that he's in there somewhere is one of the few things that keeps me from just packing up and moving (his parent's house) I want to be able to show up for you.
ME: Tell me about wanting to...
H: You're hurting. It has nothing to do with me. It's hard to watch and it falls into old patterns. I wish I cared.
ME: Did you just say that you don't care?
H: Yeah, I am not in touch with caring.
ME: Wow, that must be hard.
H: I don't understand your comment.
ME: I have care and compassion for you, and I still make sense to me. You must wonder what is wrong with you...
H: (cries) Yeah, am I a psychopath?
ME: Yes, you don't make sense to you. That must hurt.
H: (cries and nods)
ME: And, part of you hates me for that.
H: No, I hate myself.
ME: Sure, but being around me reminds you that don't recognize yourself.
H: Yes, that.
ME: That must be really, really difficult. God. How can you stand it?
H: (cries some more).
ME: Let's go back to our lives, then, and take some space and watch some TV together.
So, we're going to watch some Santa Clara diet together. You guys, this is bananas. And, still, sometimes I get to see the human that's buried in there. The pain must be unreal.

What do people make of that exchange? Did I leave the ranks of the LTR/180 to ask for care in the face of death? Should I be hopeful we his response in any way? I thought I did a really good job of demonstrating care, compassion and acceptance of his reality and tried to show appreciation for him sharing it with me, as he obviously knew it was an awful things to say.

One day at a time, right?

What I am about to say is said with tremendous respect and admiration. You are obviously a wickedly smart person who is very in touch with her feelings and emotions. I think you are dealing with someone who is nowhere near your level in those departments. What you have said makes complete sense. I'm guessing that the problem is that he leaves these exchanges feeling like you overwhelmed him and pushed him to do things he didn't want to. I can out argue my H any day and I kept him around for years by doing it. What I couldn't and didn't stop was the resentment that he was building up. Now I believe he is absolutely terrified to talk to me. I think you need to follow the DB rules and stop initiating these R talks no matter how they are disguised. Give him the space he needs to reach his own conclusions. Stop trying to tell him how to think or feel. You may be "right" but ultimately they are his feelings.

You need to stop those relationship talks. He's not ready to listen to anything you have to say right now. Give him plenty of space and time to figure things out. I know you want to shake him until he comes to his senses, but nothing is going to work. This is his journey to make and unfortunately, you are just along for the ride...

OwnIt is absolutely correct...leave him to it. Detach a bit more and continue working on you and walking the path. The less you try to rationalize w/him, the better. Why? You can't rationale w/someone who is operating on pure emotions.

Continue posting and come here to vent, etc.

Okay, so this is where I demonstrate my ongoing newbie-ness. Thank you both to job and ownit for your feedback, but I am wondering if you would be willing to be more explicit about how this was entering into an R talk? Was it because I was leading? I thought I was demonstrating acceptance or him? I really appreciate the feedback, but I think I need a bit more clarity.

Last night, H and I went rockclimbing which still seems to be a safe activity for us. I fell on my first climb and injured myself. God, the anxiety on top of the pain because I know part of his story is that he is always expected to caretake me so, as I'm hyperventilating with pain, I'm also freaking out about the potential vulnerability here. I told him to keep bouldering while I got the staff to help me with ice, advil, etc and then called my doctor's office and got advice about how to manage. I said, "Go climb. I can be uncomfortable here or I can be uncomfortable somewhere else. I can sort this out." The doctor advised me that I could wait until the morning to go to emerg so H and I got some beer and nachos (while I rested my arm on ice) and then I got myself to bed, etc. I'm sitting here in emerg (alone) remembering last year, in late march, when I got a terrible infection and I communicated to him that yes, he does have to sit with me in emerg, while I wait for 10 hours, especially as they had to do internal ultrasounds. This injury isn't nearly as emotionally tender, but I'm still stunned by the difference a year makes.

You made several references to a "relationship" and even though you were indicating as a friend, he's not ready to go that route yet. You are still expecting him to behave a certain way...drop your expectations.

"ME: You always say you want to be my best friend. So, act like it. Here's your chance to do something. Show up for me."

This particular comment is "relationship talk":

"ME: Somewhere in there is the H that loves me."

To your h, you are still trying to reach him. Even though you may not consider these comments are relationship talk, they are. You have to keep your expectations at zero and accept him for who he is today. Right now, he's incapable of being the man you want him to be. He's depressed and w/depression comes that feeling of being incapable of loving anyone, anything and most of all himself.

The rest of your conversation was good at validating. Try to stay away from any type of relationship talk, that includes being a friend to you and loving you. You are putting too much pressure on him and he's going to hem and haw about his feelings and even may clam up and not talk to you at all.

I'm sorry to read that you had an accident rock climbing. I hope you are okay. Hopefully you will be up and about very soon and get back to rock climbing.

I "only" have a ligament tendon injury. I am glad it's not broken, but part of my GAL has been intense physical activity almost every day and I know it's been a huge part of maintaining my sanity. It will only be a couple of weeks, but yikes.

Thank you for the feedback, and yes that makes sense.

Last night, as we were driving, I was talking about how much I'm looking forward to scuba diving this summer and all of the Wednesdays I plan to take off to hang out on the community boat. H and I used to be on this boat every Wednesday and most Saturdays before we had our D10. I said, "And, maybe you'll come with me sometimes."

H: Yeah, maybe. There's such a shift in the way that you're thinking about diving. You used to be completely unwilling to go without me and now you're going with or without me. That must have been in something you read somewhere about detaching. (I guess he listens, and maybe I should talk less.)
Me: Hmm. I am not sure if I read it or not. I just know that I love diving and it's super grounding for me and I can't let that rest on whether or not you want to go.
H: That makes sense.

So, I came home from the hospital alone today. H works from home and I know he gets into anxiety fits when I'm home because he wonders if I'm going to pounce him for R talks (which I would do sometimes before BD#2 in late March). So, I walked in the door and said, "I have no intention of seeking your time and attention, so you don't need to go spinning. If there are other boundaries you need, it's your responsibility to let me know but I will respect them." Then, I put on my headphones and watched Survivor on the computer next to his while playing some computer games. It seems to have gone ok.

Would it be better if I just did the headphones/tv without saying so? I'm trying to clearly indicate that I intend to give him emotional space so he can calm the [censored] down, but it also feels like something I can give or take when I announce it like that and it makes me feel like I'm still in the control position.

Me, personally, I would have just put the headphones on and gone about my business. The less you say, the better when it comes to them.

A ligament tendon injury can take just as long, and sometimes, longer than a break to heal.

I'm going to suggest that you slow down, less talking to him about stuff and just listen. Allow him to come to you if he wants to talk. Sometimes less is far better.

Take a deep breath and know that tomorrow is a new day.

Take care of that injury!

I live in a town home. Mortgage paid. There has been on and off again discussion of buying a duplex, but I am unwilling bc it's a huge financial risk to take on a new mortgage, especially as housing prices are much higher than they were 15+ years ago when we bought this house for 135k.

The town home immediately next door is going for sale and there has already been a "joke" by H about buying it and then having a duplex. I laughed with him bc it was a "joke.". But, I am waiting for someone to pit.it forward as a real suggestion. If h is going to move out eventually, the house next door sounds good to me. More contact while I wait for the alien that has abducted him to go elsewhere. But, I also know they can't afford it (would now be 320) and we have about 1k per month that doesn't go to bills. The two of them would need my income and there is no way on this planet I am contributing to them financially. I imagine H hasn't looked into how divorce works in terms of credit (spousal support, child support as debt), no mortgage company will mortgage until there's a separation agreement in writing, and has an unrealistic concept of what our incomes are capable of.

If/when this is broached, I guess I shrug and tell him to by all means explore it and refrain from sharing all the stuff I've learned about property division and let him figure it out himself. Heck, maybe him figuring out the numbers will knock some sense into him.

Other thoughts?

Also, fell into a funk without my exercise. Brutal. Silly injury.

Don't know if this helps, but my H keeps suggesting that I sell our home and move 15 minutes away from him because it would be more convenient (when I first learned about OW1 he said he was moving out of state to be with her and I should move there with the kids because it would be more convenient for him). My counselor told me to respond that I was thinking about it or taking it under consideration. Which is what I did. He sends me listings now from time to time and I don't respond to him. Seems to be working. I think you could try the same thing. I definitely would not enlighten them in any way.

Everything is helpful, OwnIt, thank you. It hasn't been brought up again.

So, it's been a month since H said he's definitely moving out. We just planned my daughter's birthday party for June 3 at the cottage owned by H's parents based on the assumption that all three grownups will sleep there. I imagine I saw steam coming out of EX/OM's ears.

There are moments when I think H is softening and I a DYING to ask but I have managed to bite my tongue on that one. So hard, because my tongue goes.

My D10's guide troop is going rock climbing next week. I am the parent who organizes all of D10's guide activities, fills out the forms, etc. so, a few weeks ago when H informed me that he would be taking D10 to this week's rock climbing activity and acting as a volunteer belayer (and assuming that I would stay home with S8), I was confused. I sat with it for a couple of days and then told him that I would also like to go. This is an activity my daughter organized; she suggested it as a badge, designed the badge, and then set the requirements for achieving the badge. I want to see how she navigates this. So, after a few days of sitting with the expectation that I look after S8, I told him I would organize babysitting. He then told me, "But, your elbow..." which I recently injured. I told him my elbow would be fine. Then and only then, he said, "Well, okay, but you should probably know that EX/OM is also planning to be there."

Which made me feel so awful. EX/OM has standing plans on Mondays and it became obvious that H was trying to avoid this conversation. H then said, "I have been asking EX/OM to tell you, but they haven't brought it up yet and every time i get in the middle, it goes south."

I just told him that my expectation is that we can all go to family events and that I'm happy to share space and be polite and even warm, but that I am unwilling to not be present in the important events in my kids' lives.

When the three of us finally touched base, EX/OM said, "I just don't want to go and pretend to be one big happy family anymore. It feels like a lie."

I did mess up in directly asking H if my elbow had been an attempt to avoid the conversation. He outright denied it (which I do not believe at all) and got flustered about it. I could have left the accusation out, for sure, even if it's true. It didn't help me in filling the positivity bucket.

I said, "We'll be doing this for the rest of our lives, no matter what happens from here. I'm happy to talk about safety and to negotiate things we might need from each other. But, my choice is to go and that is my choice to make. I hope you also choose to go, but that is your choice to make." And, then I left the house for my massage and I had purposely timed the conversation for right before I had to leave.

There have been a few times in the last few days that EX/OM's refusal to make amends with me has meant that we can't spend family time together and H seems really sad about it. I have been actively thanking EX/OM for things EX/OM does well and showing appreciation and warmth towards EX/OM. And, I feel like H sees it.

On Wednesday, he came upstairs to say goodnight to me as I'd gone to make a phone call and when I came home after the massage, he'd waited up with me to close the conversation. He's actively said that my choosing to be present for my kids is understandable and reasonable without me asking.

I am trying so hard not to rock the boat or cause any tension, but I draw the line at retreating from my childrens' activities, things I would go to in any situation.

There are moments when EX/OM seems to be softening, too. I have provided a lot of empathy lately to EX/OM in places where career hopes haven't panned out -- denied a job EX/OM thought was guaranteed, being closed off another one. My strategy lately seems to be kill both of them with kindness and warmth.

I think I need a written plan of my future intentions. Does anyone have a template they've used. I need to write it down and look at it all the time.

One day at a time.

So, I took today off as a sick day. While I was home, H asked me if I would be willing to Talk. Last week, I invited him to share his anger with me and told him I really wanted to know why he is so enraged with me and to own the parts that I can. So, he said he wanted to tell me.

He primarily talked about my unwillingness to directly discuss separation without a lawyer. I validated and reflected and didn't even discuss my choice. I just echoed that he feels trapped by it and he doesn't feel like he has a choice at all. He talked about the house next door, more seriously, and I asked, "Where do you see the money coming from?" and then he started doing math in his head and realized he can't afford it and won't be able to afford it anytime soon. And, then I asked him to talk about his older anger from before this and he did share some things with me that I'd done from January to September when the fear of abandonment was eating me alive. I listened, empathized, validated, and apologized and told him that I hope he can forgive me.

He says that he thinks it will take 3 to 6 months for us to hash out all the details of separation. He talked about how fearful and afraid and anxious he is all the time. When I said, "And, you think that will all stop when you've moved out?" he said, "No. No, I don't think it will. But I need to do SOMETHING
It is so hard not to scream in those moments how much worse I think he will feel when he has devastated his kids and is also poor but I kept my big trap shut and just said, "It feels like there's no way out, eh?"

I asked to speak to the part of him that wants to stay married to me and he fidgeted a bunch and then nodded his head. I kept it to less than 5 minutes and just asked what that guy needs to see and H said for EX/OM to get along and for him to trust me. I owned a bunch of things that belong to me without begging or grovelling or beating myself up and then I shut the conversation down.

So, after 6 weeks of me trying REALLY hard not to initiate R talks, he finally initiated one and I think I handled it pretty well overall.

I would really love some feedback.

Yesterday afternoon, EX/OM took the 20 minutes before kids came home to announce that they had "some difficult things to say" and that they had contacted a lawyer to initiate separation who would be sending along a request for financial disclosure, the first step.

I think I handled it fairly well in that I was super calm, reiterated that all communication would remain between the lawyers, and said, "I see a way through this, but I know that you don't." I then asked to speak to H alone and spent that time asking him how he was doing. He told me that he knew that EX/OM went to see a lawyer but that he was unaware they were taking imminent action. He said things like, "not ready to throw in the towel" and then also stated a bunch of things about the changes he has seen in me in the last few months that EX/OM doesn't see. I said, "Must be really stressful for you. And, change takes time to see. It will take EX/OM longer." H actually spent some time strategizing with me how to regain EX/OM's trust while also lamenting the fact that he now needs to find his own lawyer.

I plan to drag my feet as much as I possibly can. I know I have 30 business days once I receive the notice to comply. I also kept right on going in the same direction and then spent some time laughing and goofing off with EX/OM who seemed more open to me than EX/OM has been in a long time. In some ways, this changes nothing. I'm still grounding, upbeat, GAL'ing, happy and trying to show that I am doing things differently and that I'm the better option if we need to choose.

What do I need to remember? How do I interact with EX/OM ? It is so frustrating that the person occupying the role of the OW actually has power to initiate any kind of legal proceedings, which forces H's hand before he would move it on his own. It is going to stress H out to no end, and I am trying to brace myself for that fallout if it should head my way. Breathe, breathe, breathe.

Hey Surv1ve, sorry you were pounced on to have that conversation with EX/OM. I sometimes feel they like the power of making it an us and you type scenario. Two against one. It's very unfair.

I think the vets like Job will have a better idea of what to do however in mho I would sit back and let it unfold. From what you say here EX/OM is bulldozing H in to moving faster when he is not ready. Their desperation is showing and it will ultimately be there downfall. Just keep doing what you doing. Zero relationship talks and be the calm (the lighthouse) in the storm that is brewing around you.

Take care.

Thanks Coly.

I will say that the silver lining for me was definitely hearing my H make statements of not being ready and reconsidering. They were subtle and I barely acknowledged hearing them to him (so proud of myself), but they were definitely there. "I just don't think you're the emotional, unstable manipulative person they think you are. You might have been before, but you're not now. You're taking so much accountability."

Like, wow. And, just nodding and saying, "I am working hard on myself, but it takes a long time to rebuild trust."

I am sure I would not have heard those things if he hadn't been so taken off guard by EX/OM's statement, and I also can't quite believe EX/OM didn't tell him first. Whoah.

I guess my 180 was, after being told this stressful news, I went right back to my life, did the dishes, did my kid work, etc. Before, I would have sobbed and cried uncle and said that there was no way I could do those grown up things, but I was pretty much unphased and just went right back to life as we know it. It wasn't even an act or an "as if". I really was incredibly calm.

The other day, H came down from trying to console my D10 and he explained to me why it was irrational for her to have a meltdown when she did. I said, "You didn't say that to her, did you?" He said, "No," and walked off. When I went to check in on D10, she told me that H didn't believe her and then explained why, which was basically that he tried to logic her out of her feelings with the same data he had told me about. So, he lied to me. After everything was taken care of with D10, I went and apologized to H because, as much as it drives be bonkers that he tries to logic her (and historically me) out of my feelings and then lied to her, I also asked that question, "You didn't say that to her, did you?" in a super judgemental, value driven voice which communicated that only an idiot would do that. So, he said no to avoid a conflict.

Me: Hey, I realize you lied to me because my statement must have come across as an accusation. There are so many better ways I could have asked you about your interactions with D10. I will do a better job.
H: Yeah, I mean, I could have done better there.
Me: I'm not here to tell you what you could have done better. That's up to you. I'm here to tell you that I realize that my question felt more like an accusation and I created an environment that was unsafe for you to tell me the truth. My goal is to support you in your parenting style with D10, and that's not how I can accomplish that.
H: You're apologizing to me?
Me: Yup. My job is to figure out what I own and how I can do better, and that's what I came up with.

Then I walked away in the middle of his stunned and confused look. I am learning so much about myself and what I contribute, and I have to say that those stunned confused looks are fun and tell me I'm 180ing like a boss.

But, I don't know how to 180 with EX/OM to create the rethink. Maybe you're right, Coly. Maybe the H will resent the pressure and that works in my favor. I keep trying to tell myself that I can't control and predict those dynamics and I just have to keep myself steady on my course.

Survive, you are doing such a great job. I agree with Coly. I think H has to figure out for himself that EX/OM has an agenda that is not in anyone's best interest but his own. In the same way that you do not him to logic you into a response, you cannot do the same to him. Thankfully the divorce process takes time and tends to bring out the worst in people. If you can hold your head high and let them do their own thing, H will very likely see the manipulation that is occurring. Seems like he is already taking note. Definitely be the lighthouse. The calm in the storm.

That's such a great point, own it. I cannot reason w him right now. I have to back off and let him come to his own conclusions. And proceed w dignity as we move forward (while also dragging my feet) to show my calm and not contribute to whatever drama emerges.

Survive, are you there? How are things going?

Hi OwnIt. Thanks for asking. I realized that I've sort of taken a break or checked out or something.

Things are okay?

There has definitely been a lot more positive energy between me and H, so much so that I've wondered if he's really had a MLC or if it's about to end. He's been addressing small hurts with me, which is still really hard for him to do, and I've been pulling out my hand validate cheat sheet. I try not to bring up relationship topics or the question of us, and that seems to be going okay. I've gotten snippy a few times, and I need to reign that in because he takes it really personally. He's much more interested in spending casual time with me when we're both in the house and he's rescheduled our weekly rock climbing when something has interfered. I'm really resisting the urge to have a CHECK IN or to ASK HOW WE ARE DOING and rush things along. I need to notice that I am getting results and that they've been slow and will probably continue to be slow. And, that pressing is going to send me backwards.

No scary papers have arrived. I have no explanation for the lack of scary papers and I don't ask. I have no desire to open that box. EX/OM actually got a job this week and it's the first job that EX/OM has had in a long time. I initially worried it might expedite things but it doesn't seem to so far. I'm trying really hard to make a big fuss over it and celebrate the job and be extra supportive, as I know part of the story EX/OM has is that EX/OM has to be the primary childcare provider and default parent and that EX/OM sacrificed to put me through school and it's my turn.

Also, and I don't know what to make of this exactly, but EX/OM has a new girlfriend. I sort of can't believe it. I came home one day with H from rock climbing, and a pair of shoes were in the foyer and I remembered that a family friend was over hanging out... except, when I went inside, the body language was too close and then EX/OM walked them out to their car. When I asked what that was, EX/OM gushed about the new love interest and how it just sort of happened... H is feeling worried about it and anxious, and I'm pretty uncertain what EX/OM is thinking but also trying to remember that EX/OM is still newly on testosterone and has the drive that most teenage boys has that H isn't able to meet right now. Any thoughts from the board on the impacts of THAT monkey wrench into poly MLC greatly appreciated.

I know I am not supposed to snoop, and I had successfully stopped snooping for like a month but I did (SORRY!) recently peek on the conversation between H and the one friend he usually vents to about me. The friend probably had a MLC and left his wife and kids for someone in the US and keeps encouraging H to just move on already, it'll be so much easier. In their conversation, friend had given H a lawyer's name and keeps bugging H to call the lawyer and H is avoiding the question or saying he hasn't gotten around to it yet. Also, I have to not do that again because if I get caught, it's going to ruin the trust I've built.

There is more warmth overall in all directions. I feel like they're both softening. And, I'm trying not to let any of that change my behaviors or show my hope. I actually turned down H to hang out the other day, which was pretty much the first time ever.

I have been:

Apologizing for missteping and causing tension or conflict, even when I think I am 5% to blame
Being nondefensive
Validating like a pro
Following through on all of my chores
Being a great parent
Looking for ways to remind H of the needs he has stated that he lets lapse (wanting a clean garage space, his man cave and asking why he's allowed it to get filled with junk and then initiating a clean out session/take to storage session) or offering to support him with chores so he can take time with friends. This stuff gets loud appreciations and is not taken for granted.

H is sharing a little bit more of his internal world with me. That's tricky because I want to hear, but I don't want to pry, and I definitely don't want to hear the not pretty stuff.

It's been two months since he said he was moving out and it doesn't look like he's going anywhere. EX/OM either. H has actually expressed genuine concern about me on a few occasions when I was having a rough moment unrelated to house stuff. It seems that his fear of me is abating...

One day at a time, though. It's a long rollercoaster?

Wow, a complicated situation becomes more complicated. I wonder if the new behaviors by EX/OM are contributing to the thaw in your H? Or perhaps you are just doing a really good job of DBing. Sounds like it.

I have been thinking myself about what DBing has done for me. Long term who knows, but in the short term I think it has tremendously calmed things between H and me. I know it is not just me. He seems much more stable now and as a result is making more of an effort with the kids (which at the end of the day is what I most want). Could be where he is in his journey or his "happiness" with OW2, but I think it is that things between us are not confrontational.

I have become a little hung up about the scary papers myself, though in truth I'm not afraid of them. I just don't like the uncertainty, but at the same time I realize that it is the uncertainty that is giving time for that moment of reflection I asked him for before he went down this path.

Sounds like you are in a good place and need to keep doing what you are doing. I don't imagine your H can be too thrilled about someone new on the scene. In time that may turn the tide in your favor.

H also said he's having some challenges with EX/OM's transition. EX/OM is definitely looking more manly these days... muscles emerging in the forearm, hands widening, has now shaved twice (but like a 14 year old that is eager to shave a single chin hair). The papers are scary, for sure, but I guess I'm still hung up on the weirdness of EX/OM possibly initiating the process, though it seems like they haven't.

What has DB'ing done for me? A lot. I'm focusing on responding rather than emotionally reacting in all of my relationships, and that's a great framework. How can I respond calmly, in a way to achieve mutual goals, in a way that honors the person in front of me that I care about rather than the fear my amygdala is sending up?

H is slowly sharing a bit of his emotional process. He talked to me yesterday about something I did to upset him (he thought I was snippy) and I received it in a way I'm proud of and thanked him profusely for bringing it up before it was a big deal. After he talked about how scary it was for him to bring it up, I asked what I can do to make it easier or safer for him and he said, "Nothing you're not already doing. I hold a lot of accountability here, and I have to trust that my needs matter, that you'll care about them, and that if the conversation doesn't go well, I can leave. I have to remember I'm only responsible for my end of the conversation and if that if you don't take it well, that's probably not my fault."

Like, whoah. But, I take the earlier bringing up of small things as micro tests of me and as evidence that I'm doing a good job in trying to be his ally. I feel like our friendship has greatly improved and that there is more easiness between us.

As to the new person, we've always had open relationships but I agree the timing is super weird. I really LIKE this new person, too, and I have to admit I was worried about what EX/OM might be saying about me but then remembered that if I like the person so much, I have to trust her to take that with a grain of salt. EX/OM is spending every Monday with her and also finding excuses to visit her at other times (EX/OM got the new person's help to organize a gift for my daughter's birthday which was yesterday). EX/OM has agreed not to introduce the new person to the children and that's really all I care about right now in regards to that dynamic. I think I'm expected to be jealous or something (or was expected to be jealous) but I don't care in terms of my personal jealousy.

I found an old diary entry in where... I'd almost have to share it. H was really distant throughout my pregnancy and he came home after a camping trip with EX/OM and he was this present, loving, amazing human being of a partner and it was this moment in time. I wrote about how hurt I'd been by the pattern of distance and how he talked about scary my neediness was... let me go get that paragraph, at least.

--

But, New H stayed. He held me and kissed me and stroked my face, and it went on and on and on. Somewhere in there, I asked him, "Okay, where the hell is this coming from? It's wonderful, but ... where is it COMING from?"

Some magical being must've been doing some installation work on the lines between H's emotions and his voice, because despite all odds against it, I got an insightful, articulate answer. It went like this:

I had a lot of quiet time in that forest to think and nothing �to distract me. When Danielle broke down this weekend, I was able to take really good care of her. And, I realized that I don't do that with you. I love you, but I haven't been very loving towards you for these last few years. It's because I had to give up so much of myself to take care of you while you were going through the sexual abuse stuff, and you pushed me so far away and rejected me so often. It isn't that I"m punishing you for hurting me, it's that I've been terrified to love you that way again. I had to shut down that fierce, fierce love of you to be okay, and I've had it turned off for such a long time I didn't even know it was missing. So, you've come to me, demanding to be loved like that, and I had no idea what you were talking about... but the way I love EX/OM and the way I love you are so different, and being in love with her, I can see what's missing between you and me, and I'm going to do everything I can to fix it. I'm sorry I haven't taken good care of you, but I block up when you're needy, and you've been needier than ever since you've been pregnant, and I've pulled away even further. I'm not going to do that to you anymore, I'm sorry.

These past 10 days, I've had my husband. Or, the one I want. There has been fierce love and kissing and tenderness and, when I've cried, he's been *present*.

-- It broke my heart in some ways to read that, to realize that we have BEEN HERE before and that I heard some of the things I have had to learn AGAIN way back then. How terrifying my neediness is for him. I also understand his rejection of me after a period of intense personal healing differently now, as his first experience of being engulfed by my emotions. In some ways, him falling in love with EX/OM allowed us to heal some of our wounds so it's crappy that we're here now, with EX/OM and I on opposite sides of something.

That was written 15 days before m D11 was born in 2006 and I feel like I am now in groundhog day only its is so much worse and so much harder. The lessons I learn here, though, I will not forget again. I am keeping this this time.

Did you ever read any of the Malcolm Gladwell books? In one I recall him saying it takes 7 errors for a plane to crash. Looking back, I can think of the many times these issues arose for us and my response to them. Don't want to hijack so I'll stick on my thread.

Survive, are you still checking in? Just wondering and hoping that things are going well for you and that is why we haven't heard from you.

Ah, thanks OwnIt. I'm not sure what I'm doing.

Still no papers. But, EX/OM's lawyer contacted my lawyer. I got the email today. H still hasn't seen a lawyer. I'm going to delay a few days in responding to my lawyer and I'm not going to let on at all that I've been contacted. I think that'll drive EX/OM crazy.

Things with H are a lot better. I actually made an appointment to talk to a Divorce Busting Coach on Wednesday after I saw the email as I'm so confused.

H is still super anxious at time and he is definitely depressed, but he's owning a lot more of hit [censored]. He actually set a super healthy boundary with me yesterday. I wrote this in my semi private journal (locked to a very few super close facebook friends)
---

And, there are moments like this...

I suggest we do this family cooking project of loading ingredients into ziplock bags to slow cook later. Everyone jumps right on it. I am somehow the person "in charge" and find myself organizing and directing... which is such an easy position for me to take when groups need that direction and a place that can give H/EXOM an excuse to blame me for being "bossy."

I read the instructions thoroughly.... and so...
Me: It says that we should put the meat in last in every bag.
Me: (Sees Jim putting the meat in first...)
Me: It says we should put the meat in last in every bag.
H: (Super calmly, gently, and with what sounds like genuine curiosity): Are you giving me information to make my own decision or are you telling me what I need to do?
Me: (Surprised and I pause to think but I'm not feeling attacked or criticized). That's a good question. I guess it's my anxiety because I like to follow directions, but since you're doing it and I want your help, I guess I'm giving you information to make your own decision.

While out with a friend, I sent Jim a text telling him how well I thought he handled that in that he communicated he felt intruded upon and gently asked me to clarify and that it was such a great piece of boundary setting. We debrief when I got home and had a pretty good conversation about boundaries broadly and what we've learned in the last 6 months.

H: I realized that if I just did what you were telling me to do, I was going to spend the rest of the day pissed off at you.
Me: But, you must have realized that pretty quickly, because there was no anger in your voice and it was so easy for me to hear and not get defensive.
Me: Yeah, I'm learning things.
Me: We both are. We've really done so much learning together in these last few months

-----------

There is such warmth and comraderie sometimes, though he's still super afraid of me and of my "neediness" as much as I've been trying to be more independent. But, there has also been a lot of laughter. We went scuba diving last Friday and cried laughing about emerging from the water and being swarmed by mosquitos. I try to avoid R conversations, but I notice I've been instigating more "talks" lately, though they go over really well and I always keep them really short. Mostly about things I'm learning and staying far, far away from analyzing him (outloud and trying hard not to do it in my head).

My plan:

1. Do not acknowledge contact from the lawyer. That will surprise both of them.
2. Continue to insist all negotiations re separation (weirdly driven by EX/om) occur through the lawyer.
3. Stall. Stall. And, stall some god damned more.
4. Keep doing my mirror work and working hard on building a friendship with H.

I'm so curious what will happen when EX/OM is being forced to see or talk to a lawyer or face this from EX/OM. Like, I still don't think he actually wants this (he's definitely super ambivalent and sometimes coaches me on how to get along with EX/OM mostly because I'm more flexible, I think).

I see tension creeping into the relationship between the two of them. And, who can blame EX/OM, really. H says, whenever EX/OM asks, that H wants to move out and be away from me, but he hasn't done a single thing to make that happen. I guess I expect EX/OM will start pressuring. I try to be nice and kind and make friends with EX/OM but EX/OM is even more stubborn than I am.

The one year anniversary of the BD is not too far away. Honestly, I'm tempted to throw a freagin' party. It's been a year of intense growth and he asked me to move out the next day and yet here we still are.

Feedback SO MUCH APPRECIATED.

I'm not surprised it is EX/OM leading the show. Generally the one who wants it the most makes it happen. I guess legally it is odd since you are married to the one that is not pushing this.

You are amazing. How you can keep a cool head and be appreciative of his progress in the midst of that chaos is extraordinary. I am failing miserably at that. Ugh.

What was the gist of the lawyer to lawyer contact?

The gist of the lawyer contact will pretty no gist. Dan's lawyer contacted my lawyer to ask if my lawyer had actually been retained and then suggested lawyer-assisted mediation. I'm not sure what that means, but I have zero intentions of showing up on a room with EX/OM to do face to face mediation. I am willing to talk to my lawyer who can talk to EX/OM's lawyer. The first step will be financial disclosure, I guess, which is going to be super complicated because you can't tell what I own without a discussion of what H owns. And, if there are assessments of pensions, that is going to take 3 months though legally, EX/OM has no right to pensions. In our jurisdiction, common law relationships can take a former partner to court for part of a pension, but there's a huge burden of proof that they have to demonstrate that I don't think they have. And, I don't think they can put a claim to any portion of H's pension that I would own if H and I separated without taking H to court or H actually moving to separate with me. I'm sort of lost on how that happens, but my lawyer seems to have a plan.

She also understands that I want to drag my feet.

Me: Lawyer, you know I don't want this, right?
Her: Yeah, I know.
Me: So, I'm probably not going to prioritize this very highly.
Her: Well, I have some time consuming trials coming up.
Me: You know, I'm a really firm believer in work life balance. I would never want you to overextend yourself for me.
Her: (laughs).

And, I read your thread OwnIt and I'll comment later, but your H doesn't seem to deserve a lot of accolades. I can see my H trying when his anxiety and depression aren't owning him... and, all he's trying to do is to develop a self. He expresses terror at the idea of being in a R with me and I never bring up anything beyond "working on our friendship" or any kind of long term future. But, he is trying to develop a self and he's trying to do better with his anxiety and fear. He has acknowledged the way he has used it as a weapon against me, to shut me down, and he is trying to find other ways.

I'm doing a bad job with not using names. Job, if you come through, can you X the names out in my last two posts. (sigh).

Yes, when people aren't in a rush the legal system can take a very long time. EX/OM is going to drive his lawyer batty with the jumbled mess. I would imagine the tension between the two of them will continue to mount as your H drags his heels and EX/OM can't get anywhere.

And in trying to sort through my reactions and responsibilities there. A part of me is thrilled at the idea of their tension mounting, obviously, so then I feel immediately guilty. But, what I am doing right now is acting in my own best interests, as I see them. To do otherwise is a disservice to myself.

I would happily separate w ex/om. But, my read on h is that he feels bound to ex/om and would move w them. Maybe that would even be a great thing bc he wouldn't get to cake eat any more in terms of financial comfort w my income while getting emotional needs met (kind of?) with ex/om.

But I go back to the simple advice here to use lawyers as shields to reduce negative emotional tension and to stall for time. It's good advice and I think it's in my best interest, especially when it's ex/om driving. It's weird to have an ow character actually able to legally initiate.

Ex/om certainly isn't looking out for me, so I am.not sure why I feel bound to look out for them. Need to work on that.

Okay, how do you know when the mid life crisis might be ending?

My H has actually been a human being for the last week. He has stated gentle boundaries, been accountable, and has actually provided me significant care last night 1) even though I didn't ask for it 2) saw my terror in accepting his care and told me what he would do to make sure that the care didn't backfire 3) stuck to his commitment 4) when the emotional debriefing conversation after I accepted care but before care was provided got too much for him said, "Is there much more you need to say about this tonight? I'm noticing the first flutters of anxiety, and I'm curious if we can wrap the more emotional conversation up soon."

As the care involved spending time with me when I was being eaten by anxiety and invovled swapping our household schedule, EX/OM also was involved. When I thanked EX/OM, I heard actual warmth in their voice. Later, when I asked H why he thought EX/OM suggested a "night out switch", H said, "I think EX/OM had some alterior motives. I'm tired, so I'm maybe not good company. I think EX/OM wanted to take this kids to this [super cool special event]. I also think it's EX/OM's way of expressing care, but EX/OM would never admit it. And, please don't thank them for expressing care, as EX/OM will just redouble efforts to make sure that you don't think EX/OM cares about you."

Like, my H has never been this compassion or caring or articulate or able to predict and manage an emotional outcome. After we went rock climbing and he coached me in a way that always makes me feel so supported, we went out to eat at the usual restaurant. While eating, H told me about his process, the state of his mind, that he has been doing his own reading about MLC and thinks it fits, that he is scared of needing people but realizes he does need people, and what he plans to do in the immediate future to have his own community of people. I actually joked and said, "Do you really think you're in a MLC?" He said, "Do you think I am?" I said, "It doesn't matter what I think, but the reading says that if YOU think you're in an MLC, it means you might be almost done with it. People in MLC don't call it that until they're almost through!" We both laughed. I told him I plan to throw myself a party on the upcoming anniversary of "bomb drop" because all of the growth that we've both done is worth celebrating.

So, tonight, EX/OM is actually off to emerg with H, as EX/OM has a ?UTI. H didn't hesitate to go with EX/OM. He noticed my tears and said, "Bringing up some hard feels, eh?"

I talked about how in April of 2015, I was hospitalized for almost a week with a brutal pelvic infection related to my IUD and H complained bitterly about going to emerg with me for four days in a row when I had a fever of over a hundred and apparently a 3 X 2 X 3 cm infectious sac of fluid on my fallopian tubes. The pain was excruciating. As a survivor of childhood trauma, I especially needed him to stay with me through the seemingly hundreds of internal exams. And, he made sure I knew how much he resented it.

Today, he said, "Yeah, I was in a super bad place. I'm sorry."
"When did it start," I asked?
"I don't know. A long time ago."
"Wow, you held it together for a long time. That must have been so hard."

So, like, I'm trying to take nothing for granted, but how do you know when maybe it's about to end? And, then what? And, if he's sane(r), what changes? The coach the other day said, "Wow, your H sounds actually super reasonable. What makes you think he is having a MLC?" I described September to February and she said, "I'm convinced! I'm convinced!"

So, that's life here. What should I expect next?

Survive, from what I have read of Job, doesn't sound like he is coming out yet. I think you are just a really good DBer. I am impressed!

So, H went away to the family cottage for a week by himself and I worked very hard to not contact him. I did call him a couple of times for time sensitive inquiries, but I made the inquiry and hung up any other conversation. I was pretty anxious about his homecoming and I practically jumped out of my chair when he came home 2 hours earlier than I expected him.

He was still human. No monster. He kept trying to make pleasant chat with me and I, initially, answered super briefly and sort of shut him out (mostly because I was busy being terrified). I eventually told him some really touching stories about my time alone with my S8.

H had told me that he was in a really bad place when I was in the hospital. I am reading Lerner's book about the dance of anger and thinking a lot about triangles and I said, "Hey, I'm curious about something. I am going to ask and you can answer now, later, or never but if you were already feeling suffocated when I was admitted to the hospital and you weren't telling me in a way that I could hear, were you venting to EX/OM. I wouldn't be surprised if you were and it's pretty human, but in thinking about triangles, it would explain some of the shifting in our house."

To which he replied, "No, I wasn't even articulating it to myself. I just knew I didn't want to be anywhere near that hospital and felt like I had no choice, I had to be there. Which meant I couldn't even choose to be there. And, it was so emotional for you, it was like a double whammy. No, the thoughts I remember having were that part of me wondered how close you were to dying and part of me sort of hoped you would."

He said it flatly and sadly. My legitimate response, actual authentic response was, "Wow, that must have been so hard to live with. Gosh, I can't imagine how lonely that was for you. Thank you for telling me your truth."

"I'm less afraid of telling you... the truth now. Less invested in what you think."

"If we want our relationship to get better, it has to mean being actually honest with each other. Kindly but radically honest."

So, tomorrow, we're going to scuba diving which is like 4 hours more of a hang out than our usual weekly climbing and a lot more car time. Last time we went diving, he was all full of nervous anxiousness and worried about everything that could go wrong interpersonally and feeling "trapped". This time, he seems legitimately excited.

It is so hard to stay detached, keep my guard up, and also enjoy this human being so much.

Survive, you rock at this. In reading your post either here or to the newcomer, it never occurred to me that you have always had to do a lot of this stuff negotiating your relationship with three people. You've had so much more practice and I think your lifestyle in general makes you a lot more open to your wants and needs and better at expressing them.

I think you are making great progress. It should get easier to be detached as you go go along. It seems your H is beginning to open up to you a bit and it is great that you guys are enjoying spending time together. All foundations for what needs to come.

Thanks OwnIt. And, thanks for checking in on me when I get absent.

So, report from the land of confused...

H continues to seem like a human being. I actually had a (delayed) trauma response to him last week... I'm not sure what exactly triggered it, but there it was. He handled it like a champ. I didn't go into a lot of detail, but I acknowledged it as a response to his emotionally abusive behaviour Sept to Feb while maintain as much non-blaming as I could and saying I understood he behaved that way because he had no other tools in his toolbox and that I don't think *he* is abusive.

He listened, within reason, encouraged me not to hide my emotions from him but to let him decide if he can handle them or not.

"We got here because I hid my feelings and need from you. We don't get out of it by you doing what I used to do. If I can respond to your fear without being a monster, it'll probably go a long way towards helping you to work through it."

Like, whoah?

Still no email from the lawyer with an update. It's been over 3 weeks since she said she was going to talk to EX/OM's lawyer and fill me in.

Yesterday was the anniversary of our threesome commitment ceremony. I had a great day, took my S8 on the dive boat and then to pinball, and hung out with my friends. It was such a lovely way to reclaim that day.

So, the one year anniversary of the bomb drop is coming up. I know how to handle that!

I've decided I'm throwing a party with my closest friends where we're going to take over the spa and they're all going to say nice things about me. I'm going to actively celebrate the ENORMOUS personal growth I've done this year (whether I wanted to or not).

I told H I was going to throw a party for myself, and he looked at me with wide eyed wonder. I mean, I obviously have to follow through.

I love your updates. Something positive and hopeful and people actually communicating feelings. Does it get any better than that?

Well, I am also terrified. Like, yes, it's all nice and my October/November self would have loved to have known these kinds of interactions were possible in the near future... but

1) WHAT IS GOING ON? Like, he is still sleeping downstairs with EX/OM and hugging me sometimes. I set up a system with him where I only ask for a hug when I'm feeling great and happy and he offers whenever but I won't accept if I'm not feeling well. He told me how smart that was because it allows him to really figure out if he wants to hug me without the pressure of "rescueing" me from emotional turmoil. So, we're behaving like roommates and coparents but I swear the subtext is changing... and I want to hope but I don't want to get my nose smacked and I dare not ask. Moment to moment. No clarification. No referencing the future. No asking, "BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN YOUR HEAD!!!!"

2) He is actually reading MLC stuff on his own. I am terrified he will find my posts, actually. I know because he is using lingo that I did not teach him. The word monster, for instance. And, he referenced his concern that his parents won't be around forever and I asked him if he worries about that and he said, "Well, that's part of the MLC thing, right." Then, he made fun of people who go out and buy convertibles and said, "well, what does that fix. It's just a deflection from the real issues" and I didn't say a word and kept eating my food. He said, "I guess I shouldn't talk, eh?" to which I did say, "I think you developed your own deflection skills." and we both laughed.

Him: Do you think I'm in a midlife crisis?
Me: (thinks: OMG YES)
Me: It doesn't matter what I think. What do you think?
Him: It all fits.
Me: Hmm. Great. The literature says that when you can say that's part of what's happening to you, maybe you're almost done cooking. Like a pie.

And we both laughed.

3) He complained to me about EX/OM's passive boundaries and lack of clarity. POT KETTLE BLACK! but, lately, he's been really great about being clear in his boundaries, putting forth his intentions without asking permission, etc. etc. etc. Hearing him say about EX/OM that they had a lot of growing in this area almost made me want to laugh out loud, but I bit my tongue. But, when I referenced a few times that EX/OM went ballistic on me for ASKING for something that I thought was reasonable, he nodded and said, "Yeah, they're really far back on that one."

So, I'm scared, basically. Because I want to hope. But it's not even been a year since BD. He says that he thinks it started a year or two before then, but even so... there is more rollercoaster ahead, right? I am scared I'm reading too much into this, but my gut says we've turned a corner. And, I don't want to get hurt again.

Good news: I have a crush on this woman. She's pretty dreamy in lots of ways and also poly. She leads mindfulness sessions, super self aware and emotionally aware, well boundaried, emotionally present, super brilliant, lovely politics, red curly hair, curvacious... *swoon* I met her husband a while ago and I also like him (see, as I said in the newcomer thread, I'd have to know and like a potential metamour). She's been travelling for 8 months. Just before she left, in December, I talked about how I was trying to figure out if I could date casually through this mess and I wasn't sure I was ready and she told me she was also thinking about dating but was about to take off for 8 FREAGIN' MONTHS.
So didn't think it would be fair. "But, we'll still be friends when I get back," she said. Code for we can start dating? I keep a really small filtered list where I journal more regularly to close friends (many of them were pretty heavy on the just leave already bandwagon... it's hard to convince feminists that you're emotionally abusive H is worth staying for and fair enough, I would have said the same). Anyway, she knows all the drama and would know what she's getting into and I think an really casual low-key intimate friendship could actually be a wonderful thing right now. BECAUSE I MISS TOUCH. AND OTHER STUFF.

So Survive, maybe the friendly co-parent/roommate thing can work for you, or maybe it can morph into something later on. I tell you, it beats the alternative. Mine is nasty and cruel and sneaky and hurting my kids. At least yours is involved and working on kindness, etc.

I'm not going to pretend to get your lifestyle because I'm probably as monogamous and hetero as someone can get, but if you like the woman and she likes you and you are in the bounds of what is acceptable in your relationship and she is in hers, then it seems to me like you give it a shot and maybe that takes some of the pressure off the relationship with H for both of you. Who knows what the future holds?

Yes, you're right, OwnIt. I can see your point for sure. I am just worried about dropping my guard and having him monster up.

I meant to add that she's back and I'm seeing her next Thursday. H certainly encourages me to date, but I think he's hoping to take the pressure off. I suspect he's actually not going to like it... and wondering whether or not I was trying to trigger his distress about losing me kept me out of dating for quite a while. But, heck, I can't live my life for him.

I also wanted to think about whether or not I could get involved with someone and continue my growth, but I think I can. And, I also didn't want to bring anyone into this weird island, but she knows and seems to accept it as a piece of growth and transformation. And, she seems so stable and so grounded while super articulate in boundaries, and that's pretty appealing.

So, today, D11 had an activity she was supposed to go to at 6 and EX/OM was driving her there. A few minutes before the activity started, H asked, "Who is driving D11 to the [thing]". EX/OM said, "Whoever..." and H rushed D11 into the car and stomped off. But, then he came back and said that where EX/OM said to go was the wrong place and that the possible place was swarming with people so was there any more specific instructions. I pulled up the email and said, "No, and did you need me to bring her?" because I know how he feels about crowds.

I'm still having this enormous fear response to him, which is highly inconvenient for DB'ing AND Acting as If, so when he came back home, I was trying not to visibly cower while he stiffly organized his dinner.

Perhaps 10 minutes later, he said, "So, it seems like a pretty big miscommunication. How can we prevent it from happening again."

I was so relieved and I learned a lot from the conversation. I also learned that EX/OM isn't much kinder to H than EX/Om is to me. EX/OM acknowledged that EX/OM was supposed to drive D11 but said that H was having such an anxious fit, EX/OM was just going to let him solve his anxiety.

H: If I had known you intended to drive her, I would have been asking you at least 15 minutes earlier if you were leaving. It's not fair to drop the ball on the kids
EX/OM: There was no problem and H was making a problem deal of nothing.
Me: ((watching tennis or something...)

I chimed in at points trying to take ownership of things that were mine.

EX/OM: Is this really such a big deal that it required a 30 minute debrief?
H: I was FURIOUS when I got in the car. It's just another example of me being expected to pick up all the dropped balls.
Me: I really appreciated the debrief. I learned a lot. And, maybe this isn't the biggest deal ever, but we learn how we miscommunicate in the micro moments. That said, if someone drops the ball with D11 on a Saturday night when you two are going out, I will expect whoever dropped the ball to deal with D11's meltdown.
EX/OM: H didn't have to drive her. There are two other adults in the house. He could have refused.
H: I seriously cannot have this conversation anymore. I need to go.

Me: (sit there sort of stunned).

I thanked him later for the debrief, which I thought was such a better way to manage his anger than passive aggressive stomping or lashing out at someone.

H is going on an 8 hour scuba charter with me next Sunday. It's like a 12 hour day together. He's visibly excited about this wreck (one of our favorites) and said, "I know I said I wasn't going to go diving with you again in the daytime because we had some tense conversations, but I have realized how many opportunities I had to change the direction. I'm not going to give up diving with you when I can just use active rather than passive boundary setting. I really messed up there. I'm going to do better."

Ownit, it really is BEYOND confusing. I think I'm as confused n now as I was shortly after bomb drop. Like, I just don't know what to expect. Some of the stuff he says (like the paragraph about diving with me), he would have never been able to articulate before BD and definitely not after BD.

If this is the guy that comes out of it and if that guy comes back to this M, I will actually think this has been worth it.

You asked a question about how will you know when he's coming out of crisis. Here's a thread that I created many years ago about reconnection...you might want to read it. Now, don't be fooled...he needs to be consistent in the reconnecting process. It will take a while before they fully reconnect and stay reconnected.

TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection (New)

Hi Job,

Thanks for the thread. I think I actually found it the day before or yesterday as I started digging specifically for info re: how to tell if they're coming out or not. That said, I'm going to read it again. And again. Somewhere, I found the idea that when they enter the tunnel and when they exit the tunnel can be the most anxiety provoking for the LBS.

BD was not yet a year ago. So, it is definitely too early. Yet, there are glimmers of a guy that emotionally aware in the way that former H never was.

H has been spending a WHOLE Lot of time with his parents and he offered recently that he understands how they both contributed to his present day struggles while recognizing they're doing the best they can. He talked about wanting to find community in rock climbing and seems to be looking forward to reconnecting to our scuba boat.

I may have alleviated his worries about "pressure" if he's too nice to me. He talked about the worry that I'll read too much into his expressions of care about me and will just expect to go right back to normal. I told him that I thought it was pretty insulting if he thought I would just let him come back without doing the work we both need to do. I don't want to make that road seem too hard, but I also don't want him to think that I'm just waiting here, hoping and praying. God, as if. I love him, and I hope... but there is a lot of trust earning to do. He actually got mad at me, but I just shrugged and didn't offer anything further. It's the truth.

Do MLC people peek out of the tunnel which SUCH clarity?

But my job is probably to make myself a list of "what it looks like to not have expectations" and read it every day. Or else.

Can you share that list with me? Seriously. I need something like that.

Surv1ve,

Your h still sounds like he is in replay. They tend to spend quite a bit of time w/parents/siblings during this time. Your h may be one of the very few that may be having a "mild" MLC and could come out the side sooner rather than later. Some go off the rails, but not so far off that they can't right themselves in a short period of time. But, time will tell as to whether he's having a few moments of clarity and will continue on down the road in a good frame of mind or not.

I think you are very wise not to allow him back home w/o doing the necessary work on himself and also to earn your trust once again. Sometimes, if they return home too early and haven't dealt w/their issues, they can go back out and complete their journey at a later time and I can assure you, the second time that they pick up where they left off from the first journey will be far more intense.

I would suggest that you listen to what he has to say. If he talks like a duck and acts like a duck, then he'll be a duck, i.e., in other words, if his words do not match up w/his actions, then he's not baked fully and ready to return home.

9 months post BD my h peeked out with what *seemed* like clarity. I also have a live-in and he moved back into the master bedroom. And yet . . . things were quite off. He wanted to get back together but did not seem to get what he had done. And when I began to discuss the damage he'd done to our kids, he shut down. That was a huge red flag. He wasn't owning anything.

He wanted me to write out what he needed to do, like a shopping list! In fact in hindsight, I think he wanted me to help him "function" through his days.

The second I confronted him on something, poof! He moved back into his dorm room like a jilted teenage girl.

Then, just as is written, he got much, much worse. They get much, much worse before they can get better (if they do happen to do the work to get better).

Mine is also a live-in job. Which I'm glad for and not glad for. He is living in the basement -- much like HaWho, I think. I wouldn't let him move back into the master bedroom without some serious work and re-earning of my trust pretty consistently.

HaWho -- god, basically asked you to be his mother. Yikes!

Replay, eh? Fair enough and thank you for the feedback.

I told him tonight at climbing about my plans to see my crush next Thursday. It was super weird. He told me that he isn't sure he would have agreed to an open relationship 10 years ago if he'd felt like his wants and need mattered, but that the current H would agree to an open relationship now. Then he told me he has no right to tell me to date or not (yes, absolutely true) because he doesn't believe that anyone has that right but that he commits to letting me know if something is bothering him in an open and honest way. Since he hasn't referenced our romantic/committed relationship in forever, being given "permission" to date (I was not asking for permission, merely expressing my intentions) but receiving his commitment to monitor his own feelings for jealousy/envy/needs (an acknowledgement that he fears losing me?) and would let me know.

I didn't know what to make of it.

Ownit, I'm not sure I have a list exactly. I had some quiet time at work on Friday and I read all the things on all the sites (I'm a counselor, it's work related? kind of?). I'm not sure I can make a list easily, but if I go back for my own research (and I might!), I'll make it a little easier for me to follow my own trail and share. How's that?

Oh, Ownit, I got you! My list of what no expectations looks like... sure. I made something for myself back in April and left it on my work computer (a little paranoid, but H IS a computer programmer and for sure knows how to hack my home computer). I'll upload that here tomorrow and then revise it this week.

Update:

Just say no to dating my crush.

1) she told me that most of her important relationships crash and burn in an explosion after she overextends herself and then gets resentful. Since that seems to be the "type"I like and it isn't working out for me, I took note of the gigantic red flag.
2) She told me I needed to leave at 9 pm so she could respect her H's bedtime rituals. Then, at 9:10, she was still chatting with me and engaging with me and making it hard for me to leaving. Confusing boundary stuff, and god, I need clarity more than just about anything right now.

H is still sane. He's been pretty consistent, accountable, kind, thoughtful, and worried about being intrusive when helping me. He's been really appreciative of my house contributions and a good partner in parenting. He's been taking my "triggers" into account in his behaviors. Today, we were at the rock climbing gym as a family (H, D11, EX/OM and me) and he checked in on me, wanted to make sure I felt included, and was generally thoughtful.

He has set boundaries with clarity and firmness with an eye for my feelings. Like, this guy is better than my H has ever been.

I keep wondering if all the work of opening our marriage maybe prepared us in some tiny way for this moment and maybe, maybe he's going to stay sane and not re-become monster. Maybe I can set a date for myself -- like, I have to maintain no expectations and keep my guard up until minimally October 1st and then I can think about dropping the guard.

Tomorrow, we go scuba diving together on our favorite wreck. I've been hanging out with our old scuba club for the last month (and having a GREAT! time) and tomorrow, he's joining me. 12 hours of togetherness. I hope we can just have a great time. I'll have to sit on my big mouth, if possible.

That's too bad about your crush, but good for you realizing that repeating the same patterns from the past is not helpful to you.

Try not to put a date on when sanity will return, particularly not one so close as that seems a great way to set yourself up for disappointment. It will take as long as it takes and not one minute longer or one minute less.

Other than that, good on you for remaining upbeat and positive about everything.

Oh that wasn't A date for when sanity returns. On that, I agree. It was a date for when I could think about relaxing a little if he's been consistently kind and caring and congruent. Because I am so tempted to relax now, and I know I shouldn't and I keep wondering if X is a sign that I can relax. The date is just a way of resisting the temptation to drop my guard by setting an arbitrary "not until at least" date.

So glad you saw that propensity and said, NO!

Sometimes I think people are put in our paths to show us how far we've come. I think your crush is one of those people and congratulations for recognizing that red flag and honoring the changes you've made.

Keep doing what you're doing, Surv1ve. You're doing great! How was scuba diving?
xoxoxo

Scuba diving was pretty great. So, the tricky thing about living with the "OW" is sometimes hearing their sex sounds. On Saturday night, they were REALLY REALLY loud. I barely resisted the temptation to go stomp on the floor above the basement room to make them stop.

I acknowledged how hard that was for me in the morning as we were getting ready to go diving. That looked like me saying, "Listen, I'm having a hard time about the noises I heard last night. I can either bury myself in this book for the entire ride, make small talk and try to pretend I'm not upset, or I can talk to you about it if you think you can listen."

He said he thought he could listen but he got a bit defensive and I stopped engaging. Then he said, "What are you looking for from me here?" To which I said, "You said you were sorry, and your words are the right words but your tone of voice says 'suck it'. When there is a lack of congruence, it usually means you're not able or willing to engage with my emotions on this one."

We actually had a pretty great conversation about how he perceives my difficulty dealing with his affection with EX/OM as a desire to control (which would be jealousy) and I experience it as grief over what we don't have (envy). When I shared the more vulnerable piece, he said, "You know, I wonder if I sense that and, until you fully grieve and let go of our old relationship, I wonder if I'll be able to stick my toe back in our romantic relationship before you are able to do that."

I mentally went on full alert and tried to pretend what he had just said was no big deal. I actually responded by reiterating that he can't just come back whenever he wants and I won't allow it. I kept trying to drop the conversation, actually, but he was very invested in me saying "accept his attempt to return" versus my words "allow". There was a discussion about personal agency and control which he actually said last night he want to finish.

Other than that trick R conversation, which actually went really well, there was nothing else that took away from the day. When our old dive captain saw him pull up, he said, "H!!! Gosh, you look exactly the same as you did 10 years ago. Haven't changed a bit!" The captain turned to me and said, "You must be doing something right to keep this hunk around." I laughed and said, "He sure is pretty dang hunky." (I know H is LIVING to have his physique complimented these days, and I usually resist). And, then H and I had a convo about the boat expecting us to be a couple and neither of us wanting to get into anything with them. Thank goodness.

The rest of the day was great. H and I dove together, and we've always been such a great dive team. Some of our favorite wrecks and H actually spent a good deal of the boat ride reminiscing about his favorite of our shared diving moments. When he told me it was time to come up from our second dive, I very playfully responded by "standing up" under water and crossing my arms over my chest as to say, "How dare you." He giggled when we got up about it and said, "You know, not all of us have gills underwater, you know. I mean, you could have stayed, but you'd have been solo diving."

Some guy on the boat decided H was a diving god (and he is, in a way, in that he has done a lot of diving locally that is considered so dangerous that no one will tell people where these dives sites are and he's made maps of the underwater caves) and chased H around trying to become besties with H. H talked about it outloud about how it is unusual for him to be chased that way but also recognizing it isn't H who is being chased, but this specific knowledge that he and only a few other people actually have. About how rock climbing is something he'll never be "the best" at but how he can be "the best" at this version of diving and I could hear how much he wants to be "the best" at something.

When we got home, I went upstairs to take a nap. Later, when I came down, H said, "Can I talk to you for a few minutes"

I got nervous and nodded.

"I had a really good time diving today. A really good time. I am feeling really tired now and I know it has to do with more than just diving, so I am going to go downstairs and take some space. Put on some headphones and maybe watch some bouldering videos. I'm not running away from you, but there are some things I need to process."

He held space for my feelings from a place of feeling really secure in his decision to go take space and even said, "It must suck for you to have such a great day with me and have that result in me going away. That must be hard."

Like, I am so continually confused by how great he is right now. It's hard.

Oh, BEST MOMENT: Some guy on the boat who is grumpy about everything in life including being on a dive boat was complaining about everything and H left that vicinity and went to the rooftop. Then he said, "God, that guy is on the verge of a midlife crisis." I almost died containing my laughter. Then H went on to say, "I remember being that way. I recognize myself."

No dropping my guard, right. Can't. Can't. Even H said he expected he was going to have some more monster moments.

the diving itself: beautiful. nothing fills my bucket like diving. I was so happy and stretched out and blissed out and making jokes with all the other boat people. Also, sort of hilarious, but I'm essentially fresh meat on the boat with all these guys basically trying to pick me up... diver, own gear, knows her way around is apparently a hot commodity. Who knew?

Hi Surv1ve, great update! The diving sounds fantastic and your H does seem to be processing a lot lately. Although it sounds like he has been reading DB when he said about letting go of the old relationship before attempting to come back! Very spooky!

I'm sorry, but I do not know how you do it, hearing their sex sounds, yuck! How is the relationship with Ex/OM and new love interest going anyway or has that fizzled out?

You doing great Surv1ve!!

I don't usually hear their sex sounds. That was the first time. I mean, when they have "date night", I'm home and being responsible for the kids, so I can't leave. And, I can't claim "unfairness" because H and I have Sunday nights and it perfectly mirrors their nights out (well, less the sex.)

H totally admitted to reading his own midlife crisis stuff somewhere a few weeks ago. He definitely situates himself into it. In an effort to soothe him (and it's also true), I have said I don't want our old relationship back and that it's dead. But, yes, I still grieve him and miss him... especially when this really put-together emotionally aware guy is showing up.

My relationship with EX/OM? Good question. I was really upset last weekend about Charlottesville and a bunch of things related to it. EX/OM came into the kitchen while I was sniffling and asked me if there was something I wanted to talk about. That was the first direct inquiry into my well being from them in a while. On the surface, nothing has changed. EX/OM doesn't spend time with me alone but is willing to do family things with me or with me and H. My sense is that they're softening, but it's just intuition. EX/OM stated really loudly mid-summer that they wanted to be not living here by September, and I nodded and validated and then left the room. I mean, I don't see that happening.

EX/OM is still dating the new love interest. It seems to be going well. H talked to me about it recently and said it isn't bothering him as much as he thought it might. EX/OM goes to the new love interest's house every Monday night. The new love interest has a number of partners, most of them long distance. One lives 3 hours away and there are visits every weekend. No one else in town.

Is it fair that I fantasize that the new love interest and EX/OM will run off together and leave me be?

Survive, you continue to amaze with how you manage all this stuff. Good that you and H can converse and talk about these topics. Will be interesting to see what the future holds for all of you.

Would you still think that if I had given in to my urge to stomp on the floor or jump up and down on it? =)!?

I had a really rough day at yesterday. Social work can be heart wrenching. Listening to.young black people talk about their daily realities made my heart and. I also left my car lights on and had to call an uber who picked me me up outside the social social housing neighborhood I was in and said exactly the kinds of.thinfs about the people in that neighborhood that the youth has just complained about.

So, H pretty much ignored me when I got home. I am not sure how to handle that better bc my kids now ignore it when I'm upset and I also consider it beyond rude. H has historically blamed me for a lack of response. I wasn't clear enough about what I needed or I was too demanding or he didn't notice I was upset and I didn't ask for help or I did ask for help and obviously expected these ridiculous things from him. So, when I told him that I expect him to at least acknowledge me when I am upset, he said, "you weren't looking at me. I had nothing to engage wjth.". I basically called bs and he got defensive and I held ground. He then said, "you know, I broke up w you 11 months ago and I just want to be your friend. You need to have other people in your life you turn to."

Ugh ugh ugh. Flail. Such bs. I mean, first of all, while he may be in high school emotionally right now, you can't "just break up" with your wife of 20 years. What wvidence.if regression. And of course, he indicates that he sees us resuming our romantic relationship all the time. It's soft, it's subtle, it's hesitant but it 100 percent there. This was just a control and manipulative tactic to throw me off balance so that I would give ground on my truth.

He admitted that later that evening, named it as an escalation. I think he even offered it.

This morning, I told him that I won't tolerate being gas lit. I need to figure out how to enforce that boundary. And while I don't expect caretaking from him right now, I am unwilling to go along with the family pretense that I am.not signalling any emotions right now. How can I do that truthfully, without force and control, modeling healthy behaviors for my children, in a way that is not demanding.

So the monster visited. Yeah, he's in there.

Also, I'm super bad at typing on cell phones.

Survive, you went from hero to zero on this one. You are the DB master and then you went all relationship crazy, validate me, and make me feel better about my bad day. In exchange you got a brutal reminder that this ain't over, he controls the pace of it, and he will strike out and hurt you to make himself feel better or take the pressure off him.

Dust yourself off and do better tomorrow. Turn to others now for support. He is not your guy right now and the stuff he said was unnecessarily cruel for how things have been going. Two steps forward and one back. It's a process. A really crappy, long process, but one none-the-less.

I have to think about it. I expect him to just acknowledge me and state his limits rather than pretend I do not exist. This is where I feel like, if he wants to live here, that is my minimum. I know I might be making a demand he can't meet, but I'm not sure I am willing to live with, even temporarily, someone who will literally pretend I am not there when I am having a rough day. Even EX/OM acknowledged me when I walked in the door, "Sounds like a rough day and then no car. Ouch."

I experience it as fundamentally disrespectful and rude thing to be ignored as if I do not exist, and it might be part of my bottom line. I don't want him to abandon me, but to tolerate what feels intolerable to me is to abandon myself. He may or may not be in my life in 5 years, but I have to live with me forever. And, he know this is something that drives me bugsh*t. If I give in here, I'm not sure I'm doing him or me any favors because if I disrespect myself here, I show him it's okay to disrespect me.

I need to think more about why this bothers me so much and see if I can shift my interpretation. H also said and really seemed to mean he intends to figure it out as he realizes that he always deflects this one to be my fault. if I can understand or create an alternate explanation, I can probably figure out how to frame it differently than "fundamentally disrespectful and unacceptable". H has, in the last 6 months, acknowledged me while simultaneously being super clear that he had no space.

He took space tonight but chatted with me by IM over messenger. He said he's really angry about last night and this morning and isn't sure he understands himself why he is so angry and was tempted to bash the van into other cars. He also left our 11 year old alone for 2 hours so he could go climbing without consulting me, which I am trying to figure out how to address. We've never left her alone for longer than 30 minutes and, while I think I might have agreed, him deciding that because he needed to go blow off steam rather than feeling she's ready for it sort of scares me.

H said this morning that he gets angry when I say things that imply he's a horrible person. To which I said, "I don't think you're a horrible person. If I did, I would be gone. I am proud of your hard work. I think your behaviours are sometimes abusive, but you are not abusive. This is not who you are, but it's something you do sometimes when you feel backed into a corner. But, I also need to name the behaviours and, while I understand them and where they come from for you, I need to name them and refuse them."

No diving tonight. I drove the hour to the boat and the boat was there and no one was on it. It apparently broken down during the day. I was pretty crushed. I needed my dive time! Tomorrow is going back to ex-crush's house who I'm happy to be friends with. I upcycle clothes from old sweaters and she wants me to teach her a few things.

I don't think you can intellectualize him into the response that you want to receive. No matter how you slice it, there is not a lot of dignity in trying to hold on to someone who at least outwardly says they don't want you.

You have every right to be hurt and to question this behavior, but expecting anything more from him is only setting yourself up for further hurt. You have to make your choices based on what you can tolerate without any expectation that you are going to change him or what he says or does.

Leaving your daughter in that way is not acceptable. His annoyance at being called out over his behavior cannot supplant her need for supervision and a safe household. Even my horrible H was an active participant in the times we "practiced" leaving our D alone for the first time.

Yes, he is making some progress and thinking through some things, but as I recently wrote, I think this is a long way from over. I think you see a little green and think you've found the mainland. You have to slow down your thoughts and your expectations to protect yourself here.

Gosh, it has been a while.

I survived the anniversary of the bomb drop. Folks, I actually threw myself a party... I invited my closest friends to hang out with me at a local beach and asked for letters celebrating my growth over the last year. I also survived Christmas without nearly the emotional rollercoaster I was having last year.

Everything is pretty much the same at home. H sometimes says he wants to move out and yet has taken no action. All the casual conversations in the house from him assume that nothing is going to change. He's currently renovating the basement bathroom, the one he uses, and today, during our casual lunch time get together, he started babbling about other renovation projects the house needs.

EX/OM is still trying to drive a separation and saw a lawyer in June and I just did a draft of financial disclosure after receiving a formal request in late November. It's moving as slow as I want it to, I guess. I remember seeing that the LBS is really the person who decides when it's over, and I see how much power I have to stall and delay and, when I'm not engaging with H in any sort of emotional way, H isn't moving anything forward. H still hasn't retained his own attorney.

H and I still go climbing most weeks, and he now comes to my office on Thursdays for lunch and we usually go for a walk in the nearby nature reserve. Conversations are generally kept light. I still see all kinds of hope and growth in him, and he becomes more emotionally articulate all the time; yet, he's still full of fear. He said recently that he isn't afraid of ME anymore, but he is terrified of making an implicit agreement... so, if he shows me care, we'll be right back to square one.

So, one day at a time? Breathing and nurturing friendships and trying to do my own work. It's tiring, though, and my friends think I've lost my mind to stick this out... *sigh*

Great news Survive and glad you are back. I've been wondering what is going on with you. My situation is exactly the same. Some things never change.

Still don't understand how EX/OM can make you respond to disclosures when your H is doing nothing though. Let him play his hand, your H will eventually wake to it.

EX/OM is considered a common law spouse and can seek spousal support and child support and can argue for a share of the house. Since I refuse to discuss the actual monies in person, he's forced to make the request through a lawyer. H isn't actually helping, either. That said, it really can't go very far unless H participates because H earns twice what I earn and, just looking at my income, EX/OM can't apply for much. It's so messy, because I would respond more quickly if I thought H wouldn't go with EX/OM. He sends mixed messages on that (and I definitely do not ask). Sometimes, he says he'd move out and sometimes he says he'd live here half time and sometimes he says he doesn't want to move out. This is where I don't ask for any further information than what he occasionally volunteers because I think going there is not going to go well for me.

I followed some of your thread, and I'll comment there. You sound like you're doing well, though, and that's good to read.

After my last post, things were yucky between me and H for a while. He seems to be really good and really sane as long as I keep my emotions fully in check and don't make any demands of him and keep my needs as something I will fill with or without him. I wanted so much to believe we were seeing the end of a dark period, but I guess I am now trying to resign myself for a longer haul and appreciate the touch-n-goes as they come.

I went on a few dates with a woman. Without going into more details than necessary, it was again really neat to see how far I've come. She wanted to reduce or limit our 3rd date, I think, for "my benefit" and it was so clear to me that it was her own comfort and not "for me". I super gently just named it and insisted that she claim her own boundaries and needs rather than deflecting them on to external reasons or claim they were for me. That is a kind of communication I used to accept with H or with EX/OM that I recognized really early. She actually cancelled our next date and said she'd get back in touch after the holidays, but she at least claimed her own uncertainty. If she gets back in touch, great, but if she doesn't, that's fine too. If my insistence on naming what IS means we can't date because she can't claim her own needs, then that's also 100% fine okay with me.

It has been tricky forming new friendships and new relationships because I now recognize and reject old patterns, but I haven't quite figured out how to draw in the things that I *DO* want.

Survive, that is so interesting. Your laws are clearly much more progressive than anything in the US that I am aware of. I'm glad you are able to view your H with detachment and recognize that this charade with EX/OM is something you must endure, but that time is on your side. You seem so strong and I have every confidence that you are going to be great, no matter how this plays out in the long-term. I have a sneaky suspicion that you will be the one that makes the big decision here.

Ownit: Yeah, in Ontario, you can have a legal spouse and a common law spouse. I think the intention is that if you were not yet divorced but living with someone else, the common law spouse has rights. In some provinces, a common law spouse does have rights to a pension or to the house, but not yet in Ontario. They can apply for those things through a court process based on "unjust enrichment" but the threshold is high for burden of proof. I don't think EX/OM would be successful, but he feels entitled to those things. I don't have any intention of giving anything I don't have to, though.

A few months ago, H had this hilarious conversation with me where he told me that he would learn that I was someone he didn't know if I 1) sued for full custody of 2) demanded an "unfair" share of our wealth if we separated. He went on to say that if I took my legal share of our wealth, he would be forced to get a prenup with EX/OM to protect himself. Verbally, I stayed non-committal and said that I intended to do what I thought was best for the children and to do what I thought was fair financially. Inwardly, I was restraining laughter. I just wanted to say, "So, you want me to give up what I'm legally entitled to so that you don't have to pressure EX/OM to sign a document to give up what he's legally entitled to." Uh, nope.

Today is my birthday. It's the final piece of the holiday to get through as H's birthday is between Christmas and today. H is making me sushi dinner and banana tempura before going out with his friends. He made those plans not realizing it was my birthday, and in limbo land, it's so hard to know what to expect. It hurts my heart to know that he's going out. He offered to cancel his plans, but I know that will just me a grumpy and resentful H and we'll have a miserable time together. No thanks. And, it hurt like hell, okay? He saw that and thanked me "taking one for the team."

I haven't been last resort technique-ing for a while. It is somewhere in between. Still lots of GAL'ing, thoughtfulness, grounding, building my own life, gratitude, happiness psychology, and even forays into dating. But, I also felt like the LRT was, I guess, too much to do forever. So, I try to be authentic about my needs in a owning them as mine sort of way. I try to take his inability to meet those needs to be about him and not me. I try to notice when he does meet me and the ways that he communicates that I'm important to him (cooking this elaborate dinner even though I would prefer quality time.

I have also been rejecting the shame... I used to feel like, if H wouldn't meet my needs, it was because I was unworthy but I'm trying to remember that his inability to meet my needs is his own shame, about how he is currently broken.

This road is going to be long, isn't it? But, I try to look backwards at how much ground we've already covered and how he isn't seeming to go anywhere and, in his own MLC way, he's trying to get through his tunnel. I look at some of the people who have reached their ends, and there is some envy in the closure but it's still my choice to stand.

Happy birthday Surv1ve!! It's amazing how selfish they become but I guess it's keeping our pesky expectations in check! I'm sure if he was human he will be feeling a little guilty about going out on your birthday!

You sound like you've got this Surv1ve!

He totally said, "I can't cancel on the guys. I'll feel like such a jackass."

ALL I COULD DO TO RESTRAIN MYSELF FROM SAYING, "But, going out on my birthday is no big deal." OMG.

I did make plans with other friends in the evening. But, I'll be glad when this period is over... Christmas, New Year's, birthday 1 and birthday 2.

H was actually super depressed about his birthday and wouldn't provide any preferences to the family as to how to celebrate it, but I took over his chores and brought home takeout as a minimum standard (and the kids are watching, right?) and he thanked me about 12 times. I have sort of always hated that his birthday is right before mine because he's always been not great about celebrating birthdays and making a fuss over him literally 9 days before my birthday should sort of send a message? But, that was him before BD so if I want him back, I need to accept that is probably not going to change.

Survive, mine is next week. I won't get a home-cooked meal or a dinner out. I will likely hear nothing (or get a creepy hoovering e-card) but that is ok by me.

I hope that you have a glorious day.

Your H is so very interesting in his thought process. Since mine is PA and completely silent, it is so illuminating to hear others' reports of the cray-cray!

I know. And, he's actually putting a lot of effort and care into the meal.

Good things that have happened lately:

One day during winter break, I elected to stay home rather than go out with EX/OM and the kids to a museum. I really just wanted to be home and make myself some new sweater clothes (I Frankenstein sweaters together into clothing). Typically, if I choose to stay home, H assumes that I am staying home to try to spend more time with him and he goes apeshit on me. So, when I made the decision this happened...

Me: H, can I check in with you?
H: (heavy sigh)
Me: Um, that was a sigh.
H: Check in is a trigger word for me. It means I did something wrong and I'm in trouble.
Me: Okay. Can I please talk to you in the kitchen for probably less than 5 minutes about how today is going to go?
H: Yes, better.
Me: I want to stay home, but I don't want to deal with your brand of crazy. I am not staying home to hang out with you, and I don't want to deal with you defensively protecting yourself from what you think is my attempt to hang out with you.
H: Then, don't. Don't put up with it.
Me: Easier said than done. I haven't figured out how to reject your crazy without escalating it.
H: Yeah, okay.
Me: So, I'd rather avoid it.
H: Well, I'm planning to go climbing.
Me: That's fine.
H: (hackles up, angry) Of course it's fine. I have a car and no kid responsibilities.
Me: (deep breath) Rephrase. Your plan to go climbing doesn't interfere with expectations I have and haven't communicated to you that we hang out together. I can see how my intended neutral statement of "it's fine" could read as permission giving when you're sensitive to that.
H: (Nod). And, I don't know when, but I realized that you no longer hang out at home in hopes of my attention. It probably changed long before I noticed it, but it's no longer my story.
Me: (thank god)
Me: It's cool when stories change. I realized last time you followed up with me about plans that I no longer have a story that you won't even bother to get back to me. You've been so consistent with that, and my story changed and I didn't even remember that it used to be my story.

A couple of times he's acknowledged that he's actually a super emotional being and that he's learning to process that. And, not too long ago, we joked about how old he is... he said he was 12, and I said, "No, 12 year old still want their mother's approval. You're more like angry 16 year old." and he laughed.

I think my challenge here is to accept that he's currently fairly sane while not getting my hopes up or expecting it to last any longer than right now. I am also trying to figure out how to now be small or pretzel while also not being demanding.

I used to be "not allowed" to go into the basement room where H and EX/OM sleep. It came up again, and I basically told both of them it was my house and, effective immediately, I would go into it whenever I wanted. H has always said he doesn't care, but EX/OM insisted. H said, "That'll just make EX/OM move out faster." (Like, it was almost verbatim from that hilarious mid life for dummies thing...) And, I just shrugged and said, "It is intolerable for me to not be allowed in a room in my own house. If that makes either of you move out, I will help you pack."

The whole thing was fairly anticlimactic once I informed them I was done with that.

New Thread:

Still surviving