It's been six months since BD. We are negotiating our D settlement. We are still under the same roof. We haven't told the kids. On a day to day basis, things appear relatively normal. We talk, we do daily activities, and yes...we still ML.
I have come to accept that barring some miraculous divine intervention (still praying) that I will be a divorced man in the coming weeks or months. As I have been advised by the many veterans here, it's time for me to change my focus from my W to myself.
Yes, I still want to desperately save my M but if that is to be then it will likely have to be a reconciliation which follows some period of actual D. And I know that neither the timeline nor the outcome are in my hands. My W may wake up some day and say what have I done or may not, but in either case it is out of my hands.
I need to move forward with my life, make me a better man, a better father. My life can no longer revolve around my W. She can no longer be my best friend. Her moods can't dictate my moods. Her opinion of me can't be my opinion of me.
I can't be consumed by sadness, anger, resentment, bitterness...those things will only rob me of the joy and happiness that are still in my life. I can't be consumed by guilt and shame. I'll take my fair share of the blame, but it's not all my fault.
My life will not be what I expected it to be, but I am going to fight with God's help to make the most of what it will be. I will stumble and fall, but I'm going to keep getting up to fight another day.
Gordie,
What is your reaction to the idea of your W being with someone else? I find that to be one of the most tortuous aspects of getting divorced. There is just some animal part of me, somewhere in the base of my brain, or something buried deep in my gut, that can't let go.
Reaction? I want to tear my heart out, scream until my voice gives out, cry from the depths of my soul, jump off a bridge, get in my car and keep driving...all of the above?
My W already told me she loves another man. She already told me she doesn't want to be married to me anymore. She has already told me he is her best friend. She has already told me how great he will be with the children. She has already told me that she wants to have a romantic and sexual relationship with him.
As you know, my pain is partly tempered by the fact that this may be a fantasy and not reality, but it still is the worst thing I ever imagined. Will it hurt more if it actually becomes reality before my eyes? Yes.
But...this will not be the end of me. I will hold my chin up. I will be there for my children. I will not lose my faith in God, in human relationships. I know that there is a better tomorrow...with or without my W. I find txhubby' posts from the other side quite sobering. No mattter what, it will never be the innocent love that was before all of this ****.
Gordie,
This I like..."it will not be the end of me" "I will be there for my children". Change it to "our" and I like this to.
This I don't " It will never be the innocent love". In the beginning it is easy to over romanticize things. to make it more than it was. I'm not saying your marriage wasn't great, It sounds like it was but....
as you heal yourself you find things about you that you lost, things that went dormant...and these things along with some new aspects that build your character even further from this mess contribute to a better, stronger, more humanly aware person that has some empathy as well.
I've been where you are. Your journey till now sounds similar to mine. We lived together for a while and even ML but it was not satisfying at all because she really wasn't there.
You are correct, they must live there fantasy till the fantasy dies...and it will die. It doesn't mean they find themselves at that point either. My EXW is still running away 7 years later and has to my knowledge never hit bottom and may never. Guess what, not my issue as many say here.
There is a wonderful life waiting for you.....but it's up to you to grab it, to seize it and to squeeze every bit of life out of it. There is definetely a great life out there minus the MLC'er.
I do hope you save marriage and she finds what's missing if anything at all but you can pave the way regardless.
Mirage
Mirage,
Thanks for the encouragement that there is healing an a better life ahead for me. I'm really trying to have a PMA to crowd out the darkness. Yes, you are right: our children.
Re innocent love. It's something that txhubby called it. The kind of love where you think this person I love could never... Yes, we are all capable of it, but the innocent and romantic aspect is that it wouldn't be our beloved. That we would be different. Naive? Yes, unfortunately.
I haven't ready your threads but will check them out. I'm always curious to read the vets threads to see how they changed over time and what happened to the R. For those with kids, it seems there is a range from friends...to NC except logistics.
Gordie, I'm right there w/ you on the pain. I find the pain soul crushing and bewildering. It's a betrayal.
As you know, my pain is partly tempered by the fact that ...
... plus you two still have sex. I think all of that put together tells you your W is one confused person right now. She is not dealing in reality.
In a perverse way, that should give you some hope. Once she hits the brick wall of reality, she might have to start to deal with it, and that may include realizing what a good partner you are.
ForGump, as always, thanks for lending your ear and your voice to my situation.
Random thoughts/events and how I am handling them:
1. Like HaWho experienced, I recently was with my W and daughter and the three of us were conversing but my W would totally ignore anything I said for about 30 minutes as if she was just talking to my daughter. This was weird so I just tried to be normal and converse...and then she started including me in the discussion again.
2. W and I recently had a conflict. In the past, both would have just swept it under the rug and not spoken of it again. I tried a different approach. I recognized where I was wrong and I approached her the next day and apologized for what I did. She was surprised and thanked me and then gave me a hug.
3. W has recently been spending a lot of time with her friend, POM's mom. I am choosing not to mind read or speculate on what is going on. In the past, I would have obsessed about why they were meeting and what they were discussing. I have resisted asking W any questions about this.
4. One of our major appliances had a problem and I spent a good chunk of time fixing it. I wonder if my W asks me to fix something after we get D, should I do it? I know it's part cake eating but I also know money will be really tight for both of us.
5. One evening this week, she was just gushing about how much she loves me and what a great man I am and that I am awesome--that hasn't happened in a while. I do think I am doing better with her wild mood swings. They still affect me but less so than they used to.
2. W and I recently had a conflict. In the past, both would have just swept it under the rug and not spoken of it again. I tried a different approach. I recognized where I was wrong and I approached her the next day and apologized for what I did. She was surprised and thanked me and then gave me a hug.
But do you think you were wrong? Apologizing isnt necessarily 'validating'. I mean, it's OK to have different opinions on things. I think it's important that she feel 'heard', but I dont think apologizing that there was conflict is always a great idea. That was me...for many years.
4. One of our major appliances had a problem and I spent a good chunk of time fixing it. I wonder if my W asks me to fix something after we get D, should I do it? I know it's part cake eating but I also know money will be really tight for both of us.
it's "part" cake-eating?
Kaizen,
Thanks. The first was something I definitely felt needed an apology on my part. I'm not quick to acknowledge when I have wronged someone--and this is something I want to improve about me. I started doing this with the kids too. This was just the first time it had come up with the W.
Re fixing appliances and doing stuff for my W. I think it is going to be very hard for me to stop, even after D. Please hit me with a 2x4, as needed.
Reasons to continue helping: she needs help, money is tight, it helps the kids, it is an act of service/act of love from me to her, better for her to ask me
Reasons to stop helping; she needs to miss me, she needs to feel the consequences of her actions (divorce), she wants to be independent, better for her to ask OM
Re fixing appliances and doing stuff for my W. I think it is going to be very hard for me to stop, even after D. Please hit me with a 2x4, as needed.
Reasons to continue helping: she needs help, money is tight, it helps the kids, it is an act of service/act of love from me to her, better for her to ask me
Reasons to stop helping; she needs to miss me, she needs to feel the consequences of her actions (divorce), she wants to be independent, better for her to ask OM
Where are you going to draw the line?
- when you are divorced?
- when she is dating someone else?
- when you are dating someone else?
- when she is married to someone else?
For me, it was easiest and cleanest to draw the line once we were financially separated.
Thanks. Can you tell I'm a newbie? Yes, I need to draw a line and I haven't. I guess start wIth the easiest:
1. If either of us is married, I definitely would not be doing this.
2. If either of us is in a dating R, I don't want to be doing this--I guess this is the point where my R becomes more/just about the kids. If POM's feelings are reciprocal and he dumps his GF for my STBXW, then we could be here quickly.
3. If we are D but neither of us is in a R, then I could see myself being okay with this. If POM's feelings are not reciprocal and/or he is unwilling to leave his GF, then we could be in this state for an extended period of time.
I have a bad history with abandonment. I was abandoned when I was a toddler. I was adopted and my parents did their best to love me but they had a lot of their own addiction and codependency issues, so much that they emotionally abandoned me to deal with their issues when I was a teenager (we lived together under one roof but lived separate lives). In my twenties, my birth mother made an unexpected reappearance in my life which triggered a lot of unresolved issues. I went to therapy and came out the other side a healthier person and was able to rebuild my R with the parents who raised me. And now? The person Inlive most in this world--my W is abandoning me. Rationally, I know this is not my fault, but must confess that in my dark moments, I feel like there is something really wrong with me...that the people I love keep deciding that they would be happier without me. I write this with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
I have a bad history with abandonment. I was abandoned when I was a toddler. I was adopted and my parents did their best to love me but they had a lot of their own addiction and codependency issues, so much that they emotionally abandoned me to deal with their issues when I was a teenager (we lived together under one roof but lived separate lives). In my twenties, my birth mother made an unexpected reappearance in my life which triggered a lot of unresolved issues. I went to therapy and came out the other side a healthier person and was able to rebuild my R with the parents who raised me. And now? The person Inlive most in this world--my W is abandoning me. Rationally, I know this is not my fault, but must confess that in my dark moments, I feel like there is something really wrong with me...that the people I love keep deciding that they would be happier without me. I write this with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
This is pretty huge.
You have the ability to target this and begin the hard mirror work. Maybe get back into IC if you already have not done so ... but I just wanted to point out for all of us there is something like this we need to address in ourselves. Its really good you have pointed this out in yourself and you can address how your W leaving has triggered some deep seeded issues within yourself.
I too had a bit of this ... was actually pointed out to me by a couple veterans on the site who had similar traits/issues and really helped me along in my personal growth.
Gordie ... following along here, I did not really have a live in MLCr ... well I did but at that time I was lead to believe she was BiPolar as you may be able to relate with those epic mood swings they have. Anyways, I think you are actually handling alot of things very well ... one concept I have adopted I want to share with you, its called "Frame". Think of yourself as a Frame, holding whatever picture it is that represents who you are/want to be. No matter what happens you do not allow anyone to get you out of your frame (its those invisible boundaries you set on yourself ... no one gets you worked up, is able to rattle you nor get a reaction out of you) I think with her living in the same house you need to really do this. For me its helped tremendously with the push and pull my MLCr has attempted over the course of her crisis. I have become mush more at peace with the very things you all are discussing here, those things that make the back of your neck hairs stand on end and you want to just scream.
Anyways .. kudos for starting to change and deal with things differently, admitting when you are wrong and apologizing is a good trait regardless, but yeah you will have to set that line at some point so she can experience that her fantasy is not what reality looks/feels like.
Cali: This is pretty huge.
Gordie: Yes, I know which is why I thought it was time to include it in this story.
Cali: You have the ability to target this and begin the hard mirror work. Maybe get back into IC if you already have not done so ...
Gordie: Yes, it's one of the reasons I re-started IC.
Cali: I too had a bit of this ...
Gordie: A bit of this? What do you mean?
Cali: Anyways, I think you are actually handling alot of things very well ...
Gordie: Thanks
Cali: one concept I have adopted I want to share with you, its called "Frame" ... no one gets you worked up, is able to rattle you nor get a reaction out of you...
Gordie: that's interesting and will read up on that; yes, am working on this part of detachment and being steady and not letting her actions/attitudes dictate mine.
Cali: yeah you will have to set that line at some point so she can experience that her fantasy is not what reality looks/feels like.
Gordie: yes, that's one of the next steps for me to start figuring out...and what all of you here have taught me...is that this is really for me and my own self-preservation/respect...not to win her back. Thanks, Cali!
Gordie: A bit of this? What do you mean?
I would not say it was abandonment as you have experienced.
In my case I was the oldest of 3, with both parents being alcoholics. Often dinner consisted of me making something, or warming up left overs after calling my parents whom were both at the bars. I never blamed my parents for anything that happened to me in my adult life mind you (did not even occur to me this was out of the ordinary until I was well into my 20's) ... but as pointed out here I did have to deal with some ugly mirror work that dealt with this issue.
I was essentially placed into a parent role as a kid which in a way robbed me of certain things .... this was essential in understanding why certain things really triggered me where for most it may be a simple shoulder shrug. Again ... its the deep dark mirror work that a few of us really need to address, in my case its easy to toss all the blame on the MLCr but I had a few deep dark demons that needed a swift dealing with myself before I could come to grips with facing my own new reality.
Can not edit this .... but just out of curiosity I punched in a phone number .... over 30 years later I still know the phone number to the old bar my parents went to.
Cali: Often dinner consisted of me making something, or warming up left overs after calling my parents whom were both at the bars ...
Gordie: I know EXACTLY what you are talking about...
Cali: in my case its easy to toss all the blame on the MLCr but I had a few deep dark demons that needed a swift dealing with myself before I could come to grips with facing my own new reality.
Gordie: Yes, absolutely. I know I've got work on myself to do...probably more than others...probably more than I care to admit to myself...
Cali: over 30 years later I still know the phone number to the old bar my parents went to.
Gordie: I get that too...there are things we just can't forget...I have forgiven my dad and my mom for everything so we can have a somewhat normal relationship...but you never forget...
And in my current situation? I still love my W...she too is hurting badly and dealing (or not dealing) with her unresolved issues...in the process, she's hurting me (and the kids)...she has no idea how badly...I hide my hurt and my tears...I think of Jesus on the cross saying Father, forgive them, they know not what they do...
Fixing broken appliances for STBXW -- check.
STBXW gushing about me -- check.
Gordie, I'm coming to realize that many, if not most, people in their mid-life have lots of emotional baggage. We all have issues we're wrestling with, some more acute than others. It's those of us who can admit to them, those of us who can open up our lives to the help of others, those of us who seek wisdom from people who are indeed wiser -- mental health professionals, support groups, wise friends and clergy -- we are a big step ahead of those who deny the baggage they carry and who persist in their foolish ways.
So what I'm trying to say is, Gordie, you are a good guy. Your wife is majorly confused right now, but you are not the problem. 50% of all marriages end in a divorce. You have been married for 20 years. So the fact that you're facing a divorce ... you're in good company.
Don't beat yourself up, friend.
And in my current situation? I still love my W...she too is hurting badly and dealing (or not dealing) with her unresolved issues...in the process, she's hurting me (and the kids)...she has no idea how badly...I hide my hurt and my tears...I think of Jesus on the cross saying Father, forgive them, they know not what they do...
For the longest time I will say that I still loved my W aswell. Over time and a great big ball of another round of serious hurting was when I dropped the rope, I still loved her but refused to allow her to hurt me anylonger. MLC, crisis, illness .. whatever it was became obvious to me that it was killing us both. I had to survive for my son, for myself .... and I loved her enough to allow her to go off and figure out whatever it was she needed to figure out with hopes ... key word hopes ... that one day she will emerge healthy, for her own sake and my sons. As far as me ... well we will see and cross that if it ever does happen, I am not so sure as of right now if I would ever entertain R at this point or not, I am not saying no ... but I also do not have the door open either.
I read earlier today something that really put how I felt over the past years and what I learned the hard way into perspective.
"She will continue to disappoint until you have no expectations."
This has held very true to me throughout all of this and I can say beyond a doubt when I was able to eliminate all expectations peace was not far away.
Cali, thanks. Really trying to get rid of expectations and dropping the rope? I know I'm not there yet.
V Day - we are having a family celebration with the kids, nothing romantic.
Q of the day: why does my W keep telling me she loves me? And what am I supposed to say when she does?
Cali, thanks. Really trying to get rid of expectations and dropping the rope? I know I'm not there yet.
Hey Gordie...
I'm just catching up on your thread. Your posts have kinda jumped out when I have been perusing a bit. I'm not on much anymore, yet this place was a lifeline a few years back.
I think you are doing well for just being at the 6 month mark. And I agree that you need to start moving forward with and for yourself. Focusing on the things that fulfill you.
What do you see, or perhaps what would you like to see for yourself down the road ?
What kind of person do you want to show the world ?
Dropping the rope, lowering expectations, all of the cliche quote stuff, is hard to put into action.
All of that ^^^ ?
What it really all means is that you live your life for yourself, not in a selfish way either. Just in a way that feeds your soul, being happy because you are, or going hiking because it is what you want to do, or seeking Bigfoot because you have always wanted to.
It is is about becoming detached from the crazy...
It is about making decisions NOT to induce a reaction, but rather, regardless the reaction.
It is about walking through life, not looking behind you to see if your WAS is following you....
When I read your advice to others, you present differently then what I read about yourself.
It's much harder to put into action for yourself than it is to see others situations so clearly.
Mainly because of the emotional attachment to your situation..
So maybe start small, working towards who you want to be....
Work on some goals that don't tie you to having a spouse..
Focus on the small things that will leave you fulfilled, and leave behind the schidt that is dragging you backward.
Like you, I have dealt with the abandonment issues. They are hard to work through...
Good book ???
Yea...just google ...
abandonment
journey
Anderson
Susan
healing
That should get you there.....
Mirage ? Cali ???
Two good dudes there....you can learn a lot from them...
So what are some goals that are just for you ???
What are some things that feed your soul ???
Mach1: Hey Gordie...
Gordie: Hey, thanks for stopping by.
Mach1: I'm not on much anymore, yet this place was a lifeline a few years back.
Gordie: Thanks for coming back!
Mach1: I think you are doing well for just being at the 6 month mark. And I agree that you need to start moving forward with and for yourself. Focusing on the things that fulfill you.
Gordie: Yes, all the vets are telling me that...(I'm slow!) that I'm too focused on my W...so I'm trying to reorient that...It's a really hard change for me because my whole identity and conception of my life and future is wrapped up in this H-W relationship...I have never even conceived of a future without that H-W relationship at the center of my life...and now I am forced to face that hard reality...moving forward with and for myself (though she's right over there, on the other side of the bed...argh)...
Mach1: What do you see, or perhaps what would you like to see for yourself down the road ? What kind of person do you want to show the world ? Dropping the rope, lowering expectations, all of the cliche quote stuff, is hard to put into action. All of that ^^^ ? What it really all means is that you live your life for yourself, not in a selfish way either.
Gordie: Hmmm...I think you just mentioned something I hadn't considered a roadblock before...that I consider this idea of "living life for myself" as somehow selfish...need to chew on that...I know part of the reason why it grates on me the wrong way is that is because my W tells me..."I need to live for myself now..." and isn't that attitude what got us in this mess?
Mach1: Just in a way that feeds your soul, being happy because you are, or going hiking because it is what you want to do, or seeking Bigfoot because you have always wanted to. It is is about becoming detached from the crazy...
Gordie: Yes, I have realized that I haven't been feeding my soul independently. I think I wrongly depended on/expected that to come from my relationship with my W...
Mach1: It is about making decisions NOT to induce a reaction, but rather, regardless the reaction.
Gordie: Yes, this is good advice. I think when I started applying some of the DB tactics to my relationships...EVERYTHING was being done to induce a reaction...less so now, but I must admit, I'm still hoping for positive reactions/responses from my W...
Mach1: It is about walking through life, not looking behind you to see if your WAS is following you....
Gordie: Guilty! I can't keep my eyes off of what she is doing and how she is interacting with me...
Mach1: When I read your advice to others, you present differently then what I read about yourself. It's much harder to put into action for yourself than it is to see others situations so clearly. Mainly because of the emotional attachment to your situation...
Gordie: Ouch, that hurt...yes, it's so much easier to give advice to others...than to follow it...
Mach1: So maybe start small, working towards who you want to be....Work on some goals that don't tie you to having a spouse...Focus on the small things that will leave you fulfilled, and leave behind the schidt that is dragging you backward.
Gordie: Yes! For me, the creative side of my life/soul has been most helpful in this...it was a big part of my life before I met my W, but because she isn't into that stuff, it atrophied...and now that I'm resuming, it's one thing that I am doing for me that has nothing to do with her...
Mach1: Like you, I have dealt with the abandonment issues. They are hard to work through...Good book...
Gordie: I will look that one up!
Mach1: Mirage ? Cali ? Two good dudes there....you can learn a lot from them...
Gordie: Yes, they have been awesome commentators.
Mach1: So what are some goals that are just for you ??? What are some things that feed your soul ???
Gordie: I'm taking this as homework...will report back with a more thoughtful response...
Gordie: Yes, all the vets are telling me that...(I'm slow!) that I'm too focused on my W...so I'm trying to reorient that...It's a really hard change for me because my whole identity and conception of my life and future is wrapped up in this H-W relationship...I have never even conceived of a future without that H-W relationship at the center of my life...and now I am forced to face that hard reality...moving forward with and for myself (though she's right over there, on the other side of the bed...argh)...
Mach1: What do you see, or perhaps what would you like to see for yourself down the road ? What kind of person do you want to show the world ? Dropping the rope, lowering expectations, all of the cliche quote stuff, is hard to put into action. All of that ^^^ ? What it really all means is that you live your life for yourself, not in a selfish way either.
Gordie: Hmmm...I think you just mentioned something I hadn't considered a roadblock before...that I consider this idea of "living life for myself" as somehow selfish...need to chew on that...I know part of the reason why it grates on me the wrong way is that is because my W tells me..."I need to live for myself now..." and isn't that attitude what got us in this mess?
I think that a lot of what you have said here comes down to a couple things....
First of all...
YOU are still seeing things / and thinking things as if you are still married.
Married in the sense that there are still two people in a committed relationship who are working things out.
That really isn't the case once one reaches these boards in most instances.
YOU are here, thinking in those terms...
While SHE is seeing herself as a single Woman, in search of fulfilling her heart...
Nothing is off the table for her, including having OM in her life. Because she sees herself single...
Secondly...
Being selfish is always that fine line that most guys face when they are an LBS.
Are we being selfish by taking care of ourselves first ?
So lemme ask you this...
If you allow ( yes I said allow) yourself to be run into the ground and dragged through the mud, without taking care of who you are at your core beliefs....
What do you have left to hand down to your kiddos, or whatever relationship that you WILL have in the future ? ( and yes, your next relationship can be with your current spouse)
Where would say that the line is, between being selfish and working towards being emotionally healthy ??
what is the difference ?
Many of us here have been accused of that by our WAS , and it is only through doing the work and being totally honest with ourselves that we can clearly see what is real, and what is script from them.
Mostly, the selfish talk from a MLCer is projection from them...
So try to avoid getting drawn into HER vortex.
It is why I said to stop looking behind you, because she is keeping you from finding the true, authentic you....
Gordie....
This time is for YOU....
Dang Mach...Great words of wisdom. And true of most of these situations here.
Q of the day: why does my W keep telling me she loves me? And what am I supposed to say when she does?
My STBXW has said similar things. I love you. You're the best. Recently, You're the only decent man I've had a relationship with, all the others were a$$holes.
You and I have feelings that are governed strongly by reason. But not everybody is that way. They feel certain emotions incredibly strongly, and it does not necessarily have to make sense. I believe your W does indeed love you. But there is a part of her brain that fails to light up when she thinks about you. And she is seeking the emotional drug that will make that part of her brain light up. There is no X therefore Y therefore Z. It just is "Z". She just feels it.
It's like how some dogs will eat a full bag of dogfood until they get sick, and it doesn't matter how many times they've done it already. I don't mean to make a pejorative comparison. I bring it up because so many of us have dogs, love dogs, and understand how their minds work. There is no logic there; they just feel it.
What to say? Probably the DB mantra: I love you too. I'm sorry you feel so hopeless about our marriage, but I think a divorce is the wrong answer to our problems. It's no silver bullet, but nothing is, nothing can be, but time and they themselves hitting rock bottom on their own terms.
My two cents.
ForGump: You and I have feelings that are governed strongly by reason.
SBJ: Isn't that the main difference between men and women? Reason vs Emotion
ForGump: I bring it up because so many of us have dogs, love dogs, and understand how their minds work. There is no logic there; they just feel it.
SBJ: I also have doges, but don't seem to understand them any more that my W. Then again, they are all female as well. HAHA!
Maybe that has something to do with it.
You and I have feelings that are governed strongly by reason. But not everybody is that way. They feel certain emotions incredibly strongly, and it does not necessarily have to make sense. I believe your W does indeed love you. But there is a part of her brain that fails to light up when she thinks about you. And she is seeking the emotional drug that will make that part of her brain light up. There is no X therefore Y therefore Z. It just is "Z". She just feels it.
I would agree that's pretty close.....
I would add that an MLCer acts totally on emotion...
What we might see as rational behavior or decisions would be a complete afterthought to an MLCer.
And no dis-respect to our superior gender here, but understanding the Venus and Mars stuff will go a long way too.
All Women tend to deal with the emotional side of a problem before they can start to deal with the rational side of a problem...
And it works in every aspect of life. The part that should be noticed first is the part that it is often overlooked the most.
At some point in time, most of us guys have heard our spouse say " all you ever want me for is sex"..
And for them, it is a very true, because they aren't "feeling" the connection...
Women NEED the emotional connection in order to fuel the physical connection...
For us ?
It's the same yet completely opposite. We have to have the physical part BEFORE we can deal with the emotional part.
So, back around to your side of the barn...
In understanding the above...
And knowing that an MLCer runs on pure emotion...
IF you were to add those two together ???
What would you think that the inside of her brain looks like most days ???
I would suggest reading about Venus and Mars...
It's a good read and will give you tools to carry in the future with you....
Mach1: YOU are still seeing things / and thinking things as if you are still married. Married in the sense that there are still two people in a committed relationship who are working things out. That really isn't the case once one reaches these boards in most instances. YOU are here, thinking in those terms...
Gordie: 2x4--thanks! I needed that. I still totally, absolutely, consciously consider myself a married man...
Mach1: While SHE is seeing herself as a single Woman, in search of fulfilling her heart...Nothing is off the table for her, including having OM in her life. Because she sees herself single...
Gordie: Wow, this is so obvious...yet when you put it that way...so eye opening; it hurts...
Mach1: Being selfish is always that fine line that most guys face when they are an LBS. Are we being selfish by taking care of ourselves first? So lemme ask you this...If you allow ( yes I said allow) yourself to be run into the ground and dragged through the mud, without taking care of who you are at your core beliefs....What do you have left to hand down to your kiddos, or whatever relationship that you WILL have in the future ? ( and yes, your next relationship can be with your current spouse) Where would say that the line is, between being selfish and working towards being emotionally healthy ?? what is the difference ?
Gordie: You know, I really don't know...maybe it's not a fine line/black and white between selfish and selfless...maybe it's a really large grey area...and feel that it's right to be in that grey space...but I am too close to the selfless part (to my own detriment)...and need to move closer to the selfish part (for my own self preservation/not losing myself)...
Mach1: Many of us here have been accused of that by our WAS , and it is only through doing the work and being totally honest with ourselves that we can clearly see what is real, and what is script from them. Mostly, the selfish talk from a MLCer is projection from them...
Gordie: I spend a lot of time replaying all of our conversations and her spew...and trying to determine the real criticisms that need to be worked on...and the ones that should be ignored...there are some things that are easy to determine...some that are harder...
Mach1: So try to avoid getting drawn into HER vortex. It is why I said to stop looking behind you, because she is keeping you from finding the true, authentic you....Gordie....This time is for YOU....
Gordie: Thanks, man! You have no idea how helpful this is to me, to get your POV and advice. I don't even know who the true, authentic me is anymore...which I guess is your point. I have to go find him...do the hard work and find that guy that got lost.
ForGump: I believe your W does indeed love you. But there is a part of her brain that fails to light up when she thinks about you. And she is seeking the emotional drug that will make that part of her brain light up. There is no X therefore Y therefore Z. It just is "Z". She just feels it.
Gordie: Thanks for this. And in her own way, W's tried to tell me this: this isn't rational, but I have to follow my heart. But doesn't this make you want to scream: LOVE ISN'T FEELINGS! LOVE IS A CHOICE. IT'S A COMMITMENT WE MADE TO ONE ANOTHER. IT'S A COMMITMENT WE MADE TO THE CHILDREN WE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Of course, I have never said those things...in fact, I never raise my voice.
ForGump: What to say? Probably the DB mantra: I love you too. I'm sorry you feel so hopeless about our marriage, but I think a divorce is the wrong answer to our problems. It's no silver bullet...
Gordie: You think it's ok to say I love you too? Why add the I'm sorry part?
I would just say - thank you and then go about your business pleasantly
Gord, I think FG is right. She already knows that you love her and that you don't think that the D is the right answer. When you stick with just that you are just reinforcing what she really already knows.
Distance and pursuit update:
So w and I have been going out on weekly date nights for years. These continued after BD. These have always been my responsibility to initiate and plan. After the New Year and we started planning our d settlement, I stopped asking her out for the weekly date. I didn't say I was stopping. I just did. And today she asks me if I want to go out to dinner tonight. I said yes. No expectations. I know she still wants D. I'm just hoping we can enjoy the time together. Any advice? I don't want to screw this up!
Many of us here have been accused of that by our WAS , and it is only through doing the work and being totally honest with ourselves that we can clearly see what is real, and what is script from them. Mostly, the selfish talk from a MLCer is projection from them...
You know, I really don't know...maybe it's not a fine line/black and white between selfish and selfless...maybe it's a really large grey area...and feel that it's right to be in that grey space...but I am too close to the selfless part (to my own detriment)...and need to move closer to the selfish part (for my own self preservation/not losing myself)...
So how would you define what being selfish is ??
What does that look like to you ??
I spend a lot of time replaying all of our conversations and her spew...and trying to determine the real criticisms that need to be worked on...and the ones that should be ignored...there are some things that are easy to determine...some that are harder...
When that burn goes up the back of your neck, you know what to look for...
And you change those things.
Those are the things that YOU don't like about yourself, and that is really all that matters for now...
The things that you change about yourself, are for you, and you alone...
Don't ever sell yourself for the sake of a marriage....
Follow the "sting"...
Thanks, man! You have no idea how helpful this is to me, to get your POV and advice. I don't even know who the true, authentic me is anymore...which I guess is your point. I have to go find him...do the hard work and find that guy that got lost.
Ayup....that is exactly my point...
Find Gordie....and the rest will fall exactly as the universe wants it to....
Well, in terms of dinner out, I would just see it as that - a meal out with someone you know. So, approach it as you would if you were catching a bite to eat with a friend, colleague or neighbour.
Chat about some neutral 3rd party things - news item, music, hobby. Talk about the kids and keep it light and pleasant.
Maybe read the 37 rules before you go. And if she starts talking about D, or R or whatever, maybe say - W, I understand you want to talk about this. Let's do that another time when we're not out for dinner..
Take the pressure off yourself and remember one evening out never made or broke anything...
Have a pleasant evening
Sotto--thanks for the sound advice...take the pressure off of ME...just have fun...I over-think everything with the W these days...
Another Q that has been in my mind that I'd love thoughts on:
So W is antsy to get physically separated ASAP. She doesn't want to wait until the D is finalized.
I had previously said I was going to stay in the house until the D is finalized and W agreed...of course, she thought once you agreed to D...it would be instantaneous. W's L informed her that you are at the mercy of the court's scheduling, so yes it could be weeks...but it also could be months.
Any thoughts on whether I should move out sooner than later before the D is finalized? This may come up at dinner tonight.
Arguments for staying in the house until D is finalized:
*It's what we previously agreed to and I like all of us under one roof.
*We're still nice to each other on a day to day basis, so not stressing out the kids or anything.
*We wind up spending time together every day, sometimes its cold and sometimes its warm, but it's always something.
Arguments for leaving the house before the D is finalized:
*R is stuck in neutral at this point (we have reached a new normal, situation is neither getting better nor worse), so maybe physically separating is a good next step to change things up?
*It may be easier for me to focus on myself.
*Perhaps absence will make my W's heart grow fonder (I know, I know...way, way, way too wishful thinking).
I had previously said I was going to stay in the house until the D is finalized and W agreed...of course, she thought once you agreed to D...it would be instantaneous. W's L informed her that you are at the mercy of the court's scheduling, so yes it could be weeks...but it also could be months.
Any thoughts on whether I should move out sooner than later before the D is finalized? This may come up at dinner tonight.
Divorce is an ugly, ugly business...
I would strongly suggest that you do NOT move out of the house...
Let's say that you leave, under an agreement with a handshake deal with her...
And you are sitting in court ( most likely a mediator, but hey ), and you see that she is filing because you abandoned her...
Stranger things have happened....
I would stick with your decision to stay there, at least until the legal aspects are hashed out....AND SIGNED....
If it comes up at dinner, or at any other time....
A simple..."I hadn't changed my mind" will suffice.
Don't drag it out, don't get swept into that vortex of crazy...
Then back to your regularly scheduled programming...
I do wonder though , what would happen if you were to cancel dinner with her because something came up that you need to take care of....
No explanation...just a "I need to cancel dinner tonight, I have something that I need to do"
And then you went to actually do something....
I agree w/Mach 100%. Do not move out of the house. The legal system could very well say that you abandoned her and the home. I would not trust her w/just a handshake of any kind. MLCers are known to say things that we want to hear and then turn around and put the screws to us big time. Do not agree to anything w/o it being in writing, agreed to by each of you and witnessed, signed, dated and sealed. You can't trust her right now because she does not have your interests in mind. The only interests she has are hers.
I have seen so many cross this Board's threshold who have moved out and then slammed w/the abandonment case and yes, they all thought they knew their spouses and trusted them. The process leading up to a legal separation and/or divorce needs to be looked at as a business contract/deal that has gone terribly wrong. YOU have to be the sane one here and ensure that YOU are getting a fair deal. If you don't, trust me, the other legal team and your wife may very well take you to the cleaners and not blink an eye.
As for going out to dinner, I think I would find something else to do and cancel this date. Why? Because I'm sure the divorce and your moving out will most certainly come up. Once they are fixated on divorce and someone moving out, they become like a broken record and will drive you nuts w/the MLC lingo. Do yourself a favor...find something else to do and just leave her out there to wonder. You can be very polite in canceling, but I don't think that dinner will be in your best interests.
X3 ^^
The D experience is a long one, I was ironically at court today, just the initial session, actually met my MLCrs lawyer (nice lady). Guess what happened ... yup, we will see you back here August 3rd. The D takes time.
I would not move out, my stance ... its her D, if she would like to leave thats all on her but why make it easier on her when its not what you want?
I also agree ... find something else to do and cancel the dinner date, how enjoyable is it going to be sharing a meal with the 500lb D elephant at the table, go do something else and let her eat thinking about wtf just happened while you start collecting yourself and regain your balance.
Thanks for the feedback--you guys are saving me from my stupid self. So either:
1. Do not move out of the house until the D is finalized. What about staying in the house but moving out of the MBR? I have also declined requests to leave the MBR. Or should I go back to, if you want space then you can move out of the MBR? That's what I said last time and she got pi$$ed, but then got over it.
or:
2. If I did agree to move out, it needs to be documented by both lawyers that this was agreed to and not abandonment and will have no bearing on the financial or custody settlement, right? I think my W would agree to that and it would protect me from the worst case scenario (which I don't expect, but I know I need to be prepared for anything).
Re dinner...you all say cancel dinner? I'm surprised. I thought it was good that she was asking me out? I guess I shouldn't be available all the time? I'm a newbie!
Gordie,
I wouldn't move out of the MBR. She's the one that's got the problem, then she should be the one to move out of the MBR. Don't make it too easy for her by doing this yourself. So what is she gets miffed...she's going to have a whole lot more than this to get miffed over before the D is over and done with.
Again, if she's not happy, then she should be the one to move out of the house. She needs to see what it's going to be like if she has to live on her own, pay her own bills, etc. The inconvenience of a move should be one her, not you. Again, it's her problem...not yours. Don't move out until the divorce is finalized and a determination is made as to who is going to buy the other one out or the place is sold.
Order dessert
Eat dessert first
Just joining the chorus: don't leave the MBR and don't move out.
My h moved himself to the smallest bedroom in the whole house (the only one left). He is a tall/broad guy. Before I found this place, I offered to switch rooms with him because I felt sorry for him (hah!). Thankfully, he was in his thick fog and in a huff, said no. I got so lucky! He's been holed up there for 2 years now!
And definitely don't move out. This could go on for years. Some of them start the filing and then it's "oh look! Squirrel!" and they are off to something completely different. You just don't know what they are going to do and they are 100% emotions so you need to do what is best for you.
And I agree; be way less available. She is cake eating! "Let me file for D, then have dinner with you so that I can feel okay about all this because we're besties."
She is the one who wants to flip over the apple cart. Let her pick up the apples. You plot your own course and let her spin like the Tasmanian Devil.
Thanks for the feedback--you guys are saving me from my stupid self. So either:
1. Do not move out of the house until the D is finalized. What about staying in the house but moving out of the MBR? I have also declined requests to leave the MBR. Or should I go back to, if you want space then you can move out of the MBR? That's what I said last time and she got pi$$ed, but then got over it.
or:
2. If I did agree to move out, it needs to be documented by both lawyers that this was agreed to and not abandonment and will have no bearing on the financial or custody settlement, right? I think my W would agree to that and it would protect me from the worst case scenario (which I don't expect, but I know I need to be prepared for anything).
Another echo here but after her initial questions the first thing my attorney told me was not to leave the house!
She's going to get mad whenever she doesn't get her way, so far it seems you're giving her what she wants. As soon as she doesn't get her way she will get nasty. She's in MLC, she's cheating, and she's the one acting out, there is no reason for you to leave. Would you move out for an unruly teen or let the unruly teen take the MBR? In a lot of ways it's nearly the same thing. I wouldn't even consider #2.
1. Thanks to everyone for the feedback yesterday--it was really helpful. Here's a quick recap: I said something came up and I couldn't meet for dinner. She stayed up for me (which never happens) and wanted to spend time with me when I got home; no R or D talk...we just talked about topics of mutual interest for a long time and enjoyed each others company; she sat very close to me and made eye contact but didn't touch me; I was getting tired and went to bed before my W...I was drifting off to sleep and then my W came to bed and initiated ML. It was an enjoyable time together...not reading anything else into it.
2. So here's something that I want to improve in my next R (with my W or someone else). My W complains that I am a great/involved dad...so much so that I prioritized the children above her...and this complaint/failure as a H haunts me. Here's one of countless examples: One of my sons is a really good football player. I love to go to his games and watch him play. My W loves my son but does not enjoy watching youth sports. However, W will go to one or two games a season. And when she is there sitting next to me, she does not watch the game--she just wants to talk to me. If I don't look in her eyes--and ignore the game--and have an engaged conversation with her, she gets upset. We say nothing...she is annoyed that I wasn't giving her my undivided attention and I am annoyed that she is annoyed and wouldn't let me just watch the game...we never discuss it and the resentment builds. So is this Gordie prioritizing my son over my W, being a bad H...or is it just bad conflict avoidance/conflict resolution and miscommunication? Now that I know the 5LL...I know my W felt starved of quantity time/attention/conversation from me (her primary LL)...and maybe was just trying to get some of her love bucket filled by spending more time with me...and then I left it empty because I couldn't/didn't see that that was what she was wanted...because I thought we were going to watch my son play in a football game?
So here's something that I want to improve in my next R (with my W or someone else). My W complains that I am a great/involved dad...so much so that I prioritized the children above her...and this complaint/failure as a H haunts me. Here's one of countless examples: One of my sons is a really good football player. I love to go to his games and watch him play. My W loves my son but does not enjoy watching youth sports. However, W will go to one or two games a season. And when she is there sitting next to me, she does not watch the game--she just wants to talk to me. If I don't look in her eyes--and ignore the game--and have an engaged conversation with her, she gets upset. We say nothing...she is annoyed that I wasn't giving her my undivided attention and I am annoyed that she is annoyed and wouldn't let me just watch the game...we never discuss it and the resentment builds. So is this Gordie prioritizing my son over my W, being a bad H...or is it just bad conflict avoidance/conflict resolution and miscommunication? Now that I know the 5LL...I know my W felt starved of quantity time/attention/conversation from me (her primary LL)...and maybe was just trying to get some of her love bucket filled by spending more time with me...and then I left it empty because I couldn't/didn't see that that was what she was wanted...because I thought we were going to watch my son play in a football game?
I think that you are putting a lot more into this than is there...
I know that you are using this as an example, however...
I wonder if this is something that she used as a complaint about you, before or after the bomb ???
And I go back to, looking back over your shoulder, to make sure that you are doing this correct or that the right way.
How do YOU feel about those situations ?
An MLCer will find blame in every interaction towards the LBS. It's part of the script that they follow. Hell, I was responsible for the Popemobile having a flat tire once....
Now, if you are in the throws of passion then maybe I would say that you shouldn't be watching football, or if you are with the intent of spending time together, then yes...
But I would maybe try to look inward on this before you pull the plug on yourself.
So maybe I would say that half of this is on you, and it is something that you should work on IF you want to act differently...
And I would also say that part of this is on the MLC, attention seeking behavior...
The half that is on you....
I will say once again that you should check out Venus and Mars...
Understand that emotional/physical divide between us cavemen, and our superior counterparts....
I would also suggest that you read the 5LL book again...
There is a difference between how we feel loved, yet there is typically a difference in how we GIVE love....
You might feel loved if you have physical touch with a Sasquatch...
Yet you might give love if you were to read him a bedtime story at night ( quality time)...
So maybe think about that, and see how you give, versus receiving love...
Ultimately....the decision that you make should be yours...
Would you feel better about missing the game ??
Gordie --
It seems like it's hard for you to criticize your wife. Am I right? Your wife going to your son's game and being needy and not paying attention to the game -- that's LAME. Sorry man, gotta call it for what it is. You are right to be absorbed by the game.
Which is not to say you should ignore her feelings and neediness and accommodate to an extent. But I do think you have to see it for what it is. It's your wife's shortcoming, not yours.
About your wife coming on to you ... you LUCKY SOGun. Like I said, order dessert first and eat it while you can.
x3
Out of all the mirror work and things I have changed in myself, being in the moment for my sons sports would never be one of them.
Some of the gripes/complaints the MLCrs have may have some merit ... mine had a list longer than my arm, most were just things she was pointing out to justify her actions, some were her own projections but there were some that had merit, some I worked on and some I actually looked at and said "Ya know what ... nope I am keeping that one"
A lot of us guys here are chronic fixers, do not fix something just to satisfy her... that's counter productive. Fix it for you
Hey Gordie - Just agreeing with Mach1, ForGump & CaliGuy there...
There's nothing wrong with going to your son's football games and being engaged in them. She's being unreasonable to expect you to attend these games and spend that time sitting in the stands talking to someone else. That's like going to a movie theater to play a video game on your phone.
You can examine your involvement in your children's lives and decide for yourself if you really do prioritize the kids above her, as she claims.
Mach1, ForGump, Cali, Bru,
Thank you guys for helping me think through these things. These thoughts keep me awake at night and being able to express them allows me to process and release them.
This was a post BD complaint. She never previously said I prioritized the kids over her but then again she didn't complain about anything. Yes, I am looking over my shoulder if I am doing x or y the right way. Before BD, I used to think I was a great H but now feel that if I was so great, then this wouldn't be happening. No, it's not all my fault but am focused on what I did, not what she did. And yes, I have a hard time critizing my W.
I feel I should be able to go to a game and watch my son play and enjoy it and not feel guilty about it. Hearing your guys reactions makes me realize that I am not crazy. I love spending time with my kids. I work a lot of hours M-F so spend my entire weekend with my kids. This is not a chore for me. The fact that my W feels she needs a break from the kids on the weekend is understandable but the result was less time for us as a couple. Date night was not enough. Family time was not enough. We needed more couple time together. I see this now. I didn't see this before. I will do it differently next time.
And the whole conflict avoidance and stuffing feelings and sweeping them under the carpet? Yes, I'd change that too. My confession: I have a weakness and that is I am afraid of conflict so I avoid it. I try to ignore problems and hope they go away. This is not healthy for me nor for my relationships. I want relationships where we both feel confident and comfortable voicing concerns, worries, complaints, aggravations. That these can be voiced without fear that the other party will go hostile or walk away. I know that this may hurt my feelings but I'd rather have my feelings hurt in the short term than be abandoned in the long term. And I think that's the fear that drives my behavior. If I voice my issues, then it will turn people away from me...but the opposite is true.
Knowing my confilict avoidance and my W's conflict avoidance I wish we scheduled time/15 minutes each week where we could both just safely let it all out. We could let go of it and the other person would listen and apologies and forgiveness could be exchanged and resolutions for change and improvement could be made. Yes, that's change that I want...for me.
I too am a conflict avoider, and would jump to a practical fix rather than letting the emotions out through a conflict.
I also had and have a hard time criticizing my wife.
I'm also guilty of not having enough quality time with my wife.
But ... I think we have to take all these shortcomings of ours in context. I doubt any of these offenses rise to the level deserving divorce. I mean, my wife used to say I'm the best husband she knows among all her friends' husbands. I bet you were/are a damn good husband. Of course there are things we can do better. But nothing we did makes us deserve a divorce.
Look at it this way. If your wife was half as committed to the marriage as you are, you would not be here. You would have worked with each other to shore up the weak parts of your marriage without ever consider the idea of a divorce.
I'm just saying, again, that while it's good to DB, detach, GAL and all that jazz, but we shouldn't beat ourselves up. I hope you agree, Gordie. You're a good guy.
I too am a conflict avoider, and would jump to a practical fix rather than letting the emotions out through a conflict.
I also had and have a hard time criticizing my wife.
I'm also guilty of not having enough quality time with my wife.
But ... I think we have to take all these shortcomings of ours in context. I doubt any of these offenses rise to the level deserving divorce. I mean, my wife used to say I'm the best husband she knows among all her friends' husbands. I bet you were/are a damn good husband. Of course there are things we can do better. But nothing we did makes us deserve a divorce.
Look at it this way. If your wife was half as committed to the marriage as you are, you would not be here. You would have worked with each other to shore up the weak parts of your marriage without ever consider the idea of a divorce.
I'm just saying, again, that while it's good to DB, detach, GAL and all that jazz, but we shouldn't beat ourselves up. I hope you agree, Gordie. You're a good guy.
I've been following along but haven't had much to post since I'm pretty much in the same spot as Gordie except that H moved out and we don't really talk much at all except about the kids and finances. But I just wanted to say this post made me feel so much better! I've spent so much time second guessing and trying to figure out what I did that was so awful that he'd rather be broke and destroy everything than spend another minute married to me. It's nice to be reminded that us LBS's aren't as awful as we tend to think we are.
X3 on the conflict avoidance, although my W is confrontational so that always have us a tough dynamic. I think fixing seems a theme though. But some people don't want or appreciate fixing, especially if we inadvertently try to fix them.
ForGump--dude, you are awesome...those are healing words. Why do you have a hard time criticizing your W? Why is that an important consideration in this autopsy.
KarenHC--sorry to hear about your separation...will check over on your thread.
Woke_Up--yes, our spouses don't want to fix them now...earlier in our R my W says she did want this...but not now...
***
Confession: I am trying to figure out more of my issues. Focus less on my W and more on me. So I think in my core, I am really afraid. Afraid of abandonment. Afraid of being replaced. Afraid of being lonely. Afraid of living alone. Afraid of my financial future. Afraid of failing my children. Afraid of losing mutual friends. Afraid of the rumor mill and facing all of the inevitable questions from children, family and friends.
This fear is an obstacle to detachment, to letting go, to moving forward, to having a smile on my face, to laughter, to enjoying my life in the here and now.
How does one face all of these fears? Prayer, friends, self help books, counseling...time? I guess the first step is acknowledging them...
"Fear not, for I am with you says the Lord."
Hey there, Gordie.
Fear is a big obstacle for those of us LBS. Our MLCer has a head start- they probably went back and forth about their decisions for quite awhile before BD due to their own fear.
So how do we get over it? Exactly what you came up with, plus one more thing. After acknowledging your fears, come up with a plan. What would make you feel better about each instance you fear and how could you bring it about?
You listed many fears, so you've already begun the process of acknowledging them. Go you! You're partway there! Now you need to plan. You probably already have started that process. Some things are easier to plan for. Loneliness? Get specific. What kind of loneliness? Just having another body in the room or someone to share your inner thoughts and feelings with? Most of the time, our fear of loneliness is more a fear of the unknown...there are many opportunities to be around others. Finding someone to share inner thoughts and feelings with comes with putting ourselves out there and taking chances. As much as I'm an introvert and have hated what's happened, I have to admit that this has been an amazing year-and-a-half of personal growth and things I never would have experienced if not for BD. What I was doing was existing...due to comfort and security. Even though I wasn't really liking it. I was forced to change once BD happened, or be despondent for ever...or dead.
Some of your fears will require a whole new perspective and mindset. Rumor mill? Questions? Not in your control. Really, NOT IN YOUR CONTROL. Believe it or not, those would exist whether something happened or not. I hate gossip. But I've come to realize that gossipers gossip whether there is something there or not. They boost their low self esteem by feeding on others' lives like little nibbling bottom feeder fish, sucking in a pebble and spitting it out again whether it has something or not. Then they move on to the next pebble, or victim. Not worth your time or reaction. Big freeing epiphany for this lady here.
Losing friends? True friends won't be lost. Reach out to those you still want, a few times at least. If they reach back, they're yours. If not...they never really were. I still harbor a bit of resentment there, but I've made a number of new friends this year who made me realize...the others weren't really all that great to begin with. Or weren't a good fit with me.
And failing your children? Children want a parent who loves them unconditionally, no matter what else is happening in the world around them. Be genuine; stick to your values. Just love and support them, listen and respect their thoughts and feelings (I struggle at times with this...mine are adults), and try not to compare your relationship to mom's or anyone else's. If you can do that, you will not "fail" them.
Just make plans around the fears you find, or be patient. Many of them you're just going to have to acknowledge that you have no control over. So keep your knees bent, try to relax, but prepare for the inevitable bump in your path. Then just go over it, through it, around it, but past it. Keep moving forward.
Why do you have a hard time criticizing your W? Why is that an important consideration in this autopsy.
I think all of us who want to save our marriages are in a fog. It would make our desire to save our marriage feel less reasonable if we were to actively and repeatedly find fault with the person we're married to. Not criticizing our wives is a part of our effort to cling to our spouses, to not destroy the marriage.
Thinking back, when I did not fear losing my marriage, I felt safer to criticize my wife (not to her face, but to close friends). I complained and griped about her various shortcomings because I felt there was no danger of losing her.
How is it important now? I suppose it's important to see that we're not thinking as clearly as we think; that our wives are very flawed people; and if we do separate ourselves from our wives, there is hope that the fog will lift and we will feel less attached, feel less hurt.
I am really afraid. Afraid of abandonment. Afraid of being replaced. Afraid of being lonely. Afraid of living alone. Afraid of my financial future. Afraid of failing my children. Afraid of losing mutual friends. Afraid of the rumor mill and facing all of the inevitable questions from children, family and friends.
This is a big step forward to recognize, Gordie. I spent a lot of time thinking about fear. Am I really afraid of the various consequences of divorce? I even looked up the definition of the word fear.
Ultimately I decided that while it just felt awful lose someone I love, and it felt awful to think about my kids having less access to their parents, I wasn't really afraid of the future. I think I will meet someone better for me. I think I will continue to be a good parent. I think I can deal with my financial future -- I can work harder and tighten my belt. As for rumors and what other people thought of me -- I never cared all that much about that stuff.
You seem like a roll-up-your-sleeve and grab-the-bull-by-the-horns kind of guy, Gordie. You do have a difficult personal history, and that's hard to work through, but I think ultimately you're a do-er. You're not going to sit and fail. You wouldn't be here looking for answers and looking in the mirror for your part in all of this, if you weren't driven. I think ultimately that kind of drive to love the best you can, will help you survive. And it makes you a guy your wife would be a fool to leave.
She may leave you because she's going through something right now, and she is, for the moment, a fool. I hope she wakes up soon.
Ciluzen--thank you for your encouragement and advice.
Fears:
1. Rumor mill. You are right. This is out of my control so I should let it go. I'm resolved not to tell people what really happened and I have no control over what my W will say. Plan? Accept it's out of my control.
2. Friends. You are right again. I actually have a lot of friends separate from my W and I know I won't lose them. I think I will lose all of the couple and family friends, but as you said, a lot of it is out of my control and if they stop talking to me then they weren't really my friends anyway. Plan? Enjoy your true friends and let go of the others.
3. Loneliness. I think what I will miss is having a woman with whom we share the intimate details of life--the little and big things. And of course the physical touch, hugs, kisses, a gentle touch and yes, sexual intimacy. Plan? I don't want to date in the near term so will have to accept that this type of intimacy will just not be a part of my life in this chapter of my life. I need to learn to be more independent and not needy with the people I do have in my life--children, friends.
4. Children. Yes, I need to love them unconditionally and help them through what will also be a major loss for them too. Help them with their own grief, anger, fear, etc. I want to be as much or even more present in their lives as I ever have been. Plan? See them every day, carve out more one on one time, be more emotionally available.
So I think in my core, I am really afraid. Afraid of abandonment. Afraid of being replaced. Afraid of being lonely. Afraid of living alone. Afraid of my financial future. Afraid of failing my children. Afraid of losing mutual friends. Afraid of the rumor mill and facing all of the inevitable questions from children, family and friends.
Little secret here ???
Most of that...
That stuff up there ^^^^
Has already happened to you...
And yet, you are here now...working toward making yourself into a better version than the old Gordie...
Why do these things scare you so much ??
I wanna share a thread from a good friend ...
Let me know if any of this resonates with you...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...116#Post2435116
Mach1,
You are a mind reader! How do you know these thoughts in my head? And that thread from Eric? Priceless.
I really am afraid and haven't faced these fear. It hadn't dawned on me that avoiding my fears makes me want to control the people around me and my situation. That's a lot to chew on.
So many fears...but as you said...maybe many of the worst things I feared have ALREADY happened? My W abandoning me. My W replacing me in her heart with POM. My parents abandoning me. My kids losing the family as they have known it. And yet, I'm still here.
More later...
I really am afraid and haven't faced these fear. It hadn't dawned on me that avoiding my fears makes me want to control the people around me and my situation. That's a lot to chew on.
Little bites Gordie...
Something that I figured out, was that even though the fear got greater right after the bomb, those fears had always driven my thoughts, which were driving my words, which were driving my actions, and ultimately driving lifetime behavioral habits....
What had actually happened was. that those fears had become goals for me....
Right up to the point where I changed it....I.E. by DBing...
Are you familiar with the Stockdale Paradox ??
Similar random fact...
The human brain in incapable of thinking in terms of "do" and "do not"...
It cannot differentiate between them...
Let's say that you are standing on the tee box, Par 3 , and you have to carry over a pond to get there...
You remind yourself...Don't hit the water, don't hit the water, don't hit the water....
Your words are telling yourself that, however...
What your brain is comprehending is....
Hit the water, hit the water, hit the water...
In reality, what you should be thinking is...
Hit the green, Hit the green, Hit the green !!!
Use that process when you work through your issues, think in the positive, and really try to pinpoint specific areas that you want to address....
Are you controlling ??
Maybe so, however...WHY are you controlling, and how did you get there ???
An example...
I was controlling throughout my marriage...
Why ?
I was controlling because I was insecure about abandonment issues throughout my childhood, and my fear of my marriage falling apart and not being able to break the legacy of divorce led me to hold on too tightly, and attempt to control my spouse by forcing her to believe in and adapt to the same things that I believed....and while SHE believed in the same things, I wasn't open to hearing or understanding that there are typically several ways of doing things, and just because her specific things didn't match mine, then she was ultimately, in my mind.....wrong...
However, that is only one side of it...
The other side was the fear that I wasn't everything that I had built myself up as, so I was also controlling through criticism...
In most instances, this is one of the most often abused forms of control...
Building oneself up by putting another down....
Which leads me to your comments about criticizing your wife....
You don't ever have to put her down, in order to build yourself up....
Okay...enough to "chew" on for now....
Best thing I have seen you post yet....
: )
Stockdale:
“I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”
The optimists:
“They were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.” What the optimists failed to do was confront the reality of their situation. They preferred the ostrich approach, sticking their heads in the sand and hoping for the difficulties to go away. That self-delusion might have made it easier on them in the short-term, but when they were eventually forced to face reality, it had become too much and they couldn’t handle it.
Stockdale:
Stockdale approached adversity with a very different mindset. He accepted the reality of his situation. He knew he was in hell.
Gordie:
One of the vets (maybe it was you) mentioned the Stockdale Paradox when I first arrived here and I didn't get it...now I see what you guys were trying to tell me back in December...but I wasn't ready to receive that advice...hopefully, I am ready now.
Scene from the twilight zone:
So the other night, I come home and my W completely ignores my existence...it was weird and unwelcome (most days are at least cordial)...but instead of getting emotional about it or reacting or spending the evening mind reading...I said this is what HaWho puts up with all the time and if she can do it, then so can I...and I just went about my business for the evening with the kids...no words exchanged...we walked by each other a few times (our house isn't that big), no eye contact, no nothing...she is already in bed and when I finish my evening chores I get in bed too...and she says "Goodnight"...and the next morning I get a "Have a good day"...thanks to all of you, I was just steady and didn't let her weirdness affect me...a small detachment victory...
Gordie
The live in MLCr is much more difficult than the alternative .... though those whose MLCr has flown the coop would argue they want nothing more than their MLCr back ... I have had both and could not do it.
I read a thing the other day "You can put up with anything for ten minutes ... then after that is done just reset your ten minute timer."
I think you are doing well and on the right path for all this.
Gordie - watch her and you will witness the fog first hand. She'll say bizarre things, lack empathy and show herself to be the opposite of who she was. If ever you call her out on something she said she often will not even remember saying it. My h told me I could go sleep with other men. The next day I confronted him on it and he denied ever saying it. He seemed confused and it appeared genuine.
The confusion is startling. For months, my h came and went without acknowledging us too much. He was like a zombie. He was gray and expressionless.
I read in someone else's thread that your wife said she was excited for d. After my h bombed me he visibly was giddy, too. It was nauseating to witness. They really do believe this x thing is their cure-all. And their empathy chips are so busted they just blurt out anything.
The Stockdale Paradox is an interesting concept. Remember you have more control than you think. You cannot control her but you definitely can control how you handle yourself as she goes crazy.
Personally? I have always liked this Henry Ford quote: "If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right."
Looking for some tactical advice: so my W has started to redecorate the house the way she wants (and we are still living together). We've divided our money, so she's spending her own. Do I comment? Do I ignore? She moved my stuff out of the MBR without saying anything and I moved it back in without saying anything. I know she wants me to move out asap. She hasn't filed for D yet, but that could be any day now.
Looking for some tactical advice: so my W has started to redecorate the house the way she wants (and we are still living together). We've divided our money, so she's spending her own. Do I comment? Do I ignore? She moved my stuff out of the MBR without saying anything and I moved it back in without saying anything. I know she wants me to move out asap. She hasn't filed for D yet, but that could be any day now.
I would not sweat it ... I know Hawho's H lived like a Fratboy in his little room and she just let him have that space ... maybe with a frebreze spritz as she walked by at times. As far as the MBR, d@mn right .. that's yours.. if she wants to shack up on the couch or another room so be it but do not give up your ground there, boundaries must happen and that's one of em.
HaWho--
You are an inspiration. Yes, my W has expressed excitement/giddiness. She told me she feels like an 18 year old getting ready to go off to college for the first time. She's so excited about her post-D life.
CaliGuy--
Thanks. I will continue to not sweat it. I will do my best not to let it bother or aggravate me, even though I hate feeling like I am being pushed out of her life/our house.
***
Anyone out there familiar with the book conscious uncoupling? I know my W read it and she suggested I read it (I did not) and I think she is using it as her guidebook for having a happy-happy D and happy-happy post-D relationship with me and a happy-happy post-D family life.
She hasn't filed for D yet, but that could be any day now.
Oh man, Gordie. I feel for you.
You've discussed a lot of the logistics already -- have you discussed a timeline for a divorce? Or, if not a timeline, a general order of events? (E.g., we will agree on terms of separation, then she/you/both-of-you will file, then you will move out, etc.)
The reason why I ask is that while I believe it's important for you to respect your own boundaries, I also think it's pointless to create a battle if you're only about to move out. But, as you know, I speak from little experience.
I still think you are making a mistake by not going for 50-50 custody arrangement. You will regret it eventually. I'm sorry to say. I just keep hearing this over and over from people (especially husbands) who have settled for less than 50-50. If there is a way, I would try to put in language that says you two will do it by mutual agreement but in case you are not able to agree, the default plan is 50-50. That way, if things go way south, you know you will have 50% access to your kids.
Don't screw yourself over, Gordie, by being too much of nice guy right through the divorce process.
She told me she feels like an 18 year old getting ready to go off to college for the first time.
Barf
But there is a thing called reality. There is nothing new under the sun. She is chasing a pipe dream.
She told me she feels like an 18 year old getting ready to go off to college for the first time.
Barf
But there is a thing called reality. There is nothing new under the sun. She is chasing a pipe dream.
I think this is the reality for most of us...right?
They feel that by getting out from under the marriage, they will have this total freedom to whatever/whenever they want with whoever they want. The reality is that they are or will be ex-wives with children that they will have responsibilities for for quite some time.
Their reality will hit them at some point, but whether they see it for a while is up in the air.
Yep, some people are fools all their lives.
Conscious Uncoupling - yes. Sort of. In that H had a few browser windows open on the subject when he was reading up on MLC prior to BD in November. The phrase makes my skin crawl. Isn't that the phrase that Chris Martin and Gwenyth Paltrow used when they got divorced? Ugh. Let's try to make something completely unnatural sound downright charming.
x 2000 on 50/50. Thankfully I live in a state where this is pretty standard unless one of the parents shows they are not able ... even then seems measures are taken to really push for 50/50. Remember ... she is in crisis and you will have to be the rock the kids look towards and if that's less then 50% they suffer.
They feel that by getting out from under the marriage, they will have this total freedom to whatever/whenever they want with whoever they want. The reality is that they are or will be ex-wives with children that they will have responsibilities for for quite some time.
Understand MLC is depression. These people in crisis have been trying to figure out why they are depressed and now have arrived at a point in their lives where they want the pain to stop, many depressed people will try therapy, meds, alcohol, drugs, OPs ..... MLCrs are no different and they often see the M as the root cause, rewriting history ... I never loved you, the M was a mistake ... anything to get out of the M, justify why and experience that bliss they just know they could have if only X, Y, and Z would happen.
As you said .. hopefully reality will set in, but from what I have seen and read this is not till they have exhausted all avenues to where they believe happiness to be, its not till then they bottom out and look internally, hopefully do the mirror work and come through the stages/tunnel as they process what they need to process in order to be whole and healthy again.
In the meantime we LBSs have a good deal of work to do on ourselves which is the only thing we really have control over in this mess.
I think I missed something along the way. It seems like you are going to give her more than 50% custody? Is this correct? I tried to look back and see why that would be but couldn't find the reason. Can you clarify?
So regarding her attempted conquest of the master bedroom, this is a biggie because it may go on for a while especially if she refuses to move out. So you can't roll over on this. You aren't going to move out and you aren't going to give up the MBR. She has her plan and most likely she hopes you'll give her everything she wants (because that's always the MLC plan. My h wanted to sleep around and still come home for dinner every night and he was *shocked* when I said no. And of course, I was shocked he was shocked.)
I assume she is trying to anger you or upset you to the point that you quit and move out. My h tried to push my buttons to the point that I know he wanted me to throw him out. This way he wouldn't look like the bad guy (who left his kids) and he'd be free (your w wants to go to college again, my h wanted to be Indiana Jones and sleep around).
You are going to need tremendous patience. It may turn into the Battle of the Roses; it did for us. Sounds like the first battle is for the MBR. Or maybe for custody of the kids?
Just remind yourself that you are sticking to your turf and she can make her own decisions. As for the redocorating of the MBR, it depends on how far she takes it. If she is taking your stuff and putting it in storage, well, that is not okay. If it's mild stuff, then try ignoring it or do a complete 180 and tell her "I LOVE these new curtains!"
Gordie,
All this non-sensical stuff your W is doing ... I speculate that your W is trying to divorce you without actually divorcing you, because that's too much for her at this point. In other words, she doesn't have the courage to pull the trigger -- i.e., tell her lawyer to file and break up the family -- so she's doing all kinds of s$%! to make herself FEEL like she's divorcing you. It feeds the MLC part of her brain, makes her feel better for the moment.
But, as you know, it can't go on indefinitely. At some point she's going to realize that she's just "playing divorce," not really divorcing.
If this is true ... where does that leave you. I don't know. You could think of it as a gift of time, but it's unlikely she'll see any DB you do during this time with any clarity and wisdom. She's in la-la land. Alternatively, you could say I'm not going to play this silly game, and ... well, I guess you're just going to have to DB until she files for real.
Be strong, Gordie.
I've been following along on this thread, but after reading the post that Mach1 put on from a previous poster about fear and control all I can say is WOW!!!!!!
That post pretty much summed up ALOT of things. I really hope I can dig deep enough and figure out what I am afraid of, and why I am having such a hard time focusing on me and what I need to do. And not be afraid to let go of all this because it really is out of my control.
I just need to learn to face it and then accept what comes from that.
CaliGuy/ForGump/HaWho--Here is the custody update. Originally, my W proposed the every other weekend and once a week dinner. All of you said that this was way too little and I needed to fight for 50/50--you were right that I needed to ask for more and thank you for the 2x4s! Your feedback emboldened me to think about what I wanted (the same amount of daily parenting time that I have now) and then ask for it and then get it in writing.
SBJ--Yes, she's in la la land, not reality. I really hope she's not one of the MLCers who stay in la la land for the rest of their lives.
KarenHC--Yes, it's the Gwyneth Paltrow thing.
ForGump--I love your insights. It never occurred to me that she is playing divorcing, yet not really divorcing. Maybe that is why she been talking about filing for two months but not actually doing it...but that could change at any moment.
skm0619--I've been working on my homework, but am not yet ready for my full thought out response to Mach1.
Gord...I think you just have to look at what is best for you and your kids at the moment. I have been fortunate in that my W is the one that came up with the 50/50 custody. I assume it is so that she can have her freedom to be on her own for a while...with all that that implies.
I also understand your desire hoping that she doesn't stay gone forever...prepare for the worst, but hope and pray for the best is the best I have for that one. I too love my W and want our family mended, but I am also seeing her for what she is right now and that is truly sad. She is selfish and manipulative. That is totally out of character for her. Like they say, they also do a total 180.
Your comment from FG about playing divorce brought back memories from my dad and step mother. She wanted a D, but she also wanted him at her beck and call. That was for everything...child care, sex, date nights...you name it he did it, and in the end she finally left him anyway. She was a WW that karma finally bit in the @$$. She remarried and was finally happy...her new husband left her for OW. Like they say, karma's a B!#^h.
SBJ--knowing what you know now, what advice would you give your dad in his situation back then?
Gord, he was a total fixer, pursuer, want to know why, needed an answer now kind of guy. When I tell him of the things I'm being told and learning the light kind of goes on in his eyes realizing what all he did that was wrong.
Gordie--
It sounds like you increased your parenting time but you're still not at 50-50. Gordie, I can't imagine what it might feel like in your shoes, with your personal history, and all the confusion thrown your way by your wife who was once so loving. But I am telling you, if you don't fight for 50-50, you are going to regret it for the rest of your life. If you don't fight for 50-50, you are repeating -- to a lesser degree -- what your parent did to you. I believe it is a form of abandonment. Your kids need you JUST AS MUCH as they need your wife. To settle for any less is to abdicate what you deserve, what is right, and to perpetuate the hurt in your life. In addition, it caters to your wife's la-la land view of what parenthood is, and it caters to her disrespect for you and your dignity.
I don't think agreeing to 50-50 means you have to be inflexible and exact about your parenting schedule. You could put in language saying you will first try to negotiate more frequent visits by both, but fall back to the set schedule if you cannot agree. I'd talk to your attorney about making that kind of a tiered agreement. Also, your wife might say she'll take your kids 70% of the time or whatever, but once she really starts to spend 40+ hours on her career, she might realize she just doesn't have the time for 70%.
I may be projecting. I don't know the details of your situation, but I urge you to settle for nothing less than 50%. At least reserve your right to have 50% at a later time, even if you start at 70-30.
ForGump,
Thank you. What do you mean...start with something less and preserve right to move to 59-50 later? I didn't even know that was an option?
Gordie - Why exactly don't you want to start off with 50/50 custody?
You mentioned that her proposal was not enough. She recommended every other weekend and 1 night/weekday for dinner? That is ridiculous. I see my bank teller more.
Are you trying to be nice to your wife hoping all this will just blow away? Or are you a hands off sort of dad that is nervous about taking on 50%? Are you nervous she'll monster and you'll "lose her?" What exactly is your rationale for not wanting 50%? Please explain so we can help you work through the issue.
By the way, if you already agreed to her preposterous recommendation, it is totally fine to change your mind and you do not owe it to her to give any sort of explanation whatsoever.
There are so many reasons you need 50% custody. First and foremost, it says to your kids I want you as much as I can have you. This is really important. Secondly, time away from her shields them from MLC. She will get worse before she gets better. We have an obligation to show our kids how a proper home runs. You can't control how she will run her home but we have to complete the job we started. We should not outsource child rearing to a kooky MLCer.
That said, your w is interested in a young employee, right? (I think that is her sitch.) At some point she'll probably introduce him into her life and fantasy will meet reality. You want to limit the time your kids see all this. This guy particularly is a complete loser. A 20 year old guy who pursues (or allows himself to be pursued) by a married woman (who is his boss!) with 5 kids is a dreg. This is what she is attracting!!!
People in MLC often become very manipulative. I am worried that she has a motive behind all this. What if she is building a case that you are unfit to parent because you didn't want 50% custody?
It is in rare cases parents do not share custody equally. And if there is some huge disparity in time with kids, usually the one with the sliver of the pie is somehow unfit. Don't you think between the two of you, right now, she is less fit than you are?
She is gunning for the house and the kids. Saddle up your horse and fight for what you deserve. There will be a series of crossroads throughout this process. You need to make decisions true to you at each of them.
Anytime I struggle with these sorts of decisions, I think: what do I want to pattern for my kids or if my kids were adults and in my situation, how would I advise them?
Gordie,
An example of 50/50 that H and I are currently following is called a 3/3/4/4 arrangement. I have the kids Sun, Mon, Tue night overnight. He has them Wed, Thurs, Fri overnight. We rotate Saturday nights. This is a little more stable for them as the only day of the week that ever changes for them is Saturdays. It makes the weekends long for me when he has them on Saturday nights, but other than that it seems to be working as well as can be expected. We've been on this schedule since 1/1. Also, they get off the school bus at my house every day and he picks them up on his way home from work on his nights. So I really get to see them almost every single day which is pretty cool. If you stay in the house, that might be something that you put in your visitation agreement. It's just another way to try to reduce the impact to the kids in a small way.
ForGump/HaWho/KarenHC,
Thanks for your concern and hitting me over the head. I love 2x4s, seriously--you guys are the best and tell me things that I won't hear anywhere else. I can't go into all of the details...but I hear you: I need to re think my current custody stance. And HaWho, no, I have not been a hands off dad; I am very involved. In fact, W has never criticized my parenting--even when she is spewing. We haven't signed anything yet, so it's still all theoretical. W has been more open to negotiation on things than I feared.
***
This week has been a pretty good week. In general, I have been good about following your/the DB coach's advice: I've been a friendly neighbor; we talk every evening about non-controversial topics; we are doing the types of things that build friendship. She has been saying more ILYs and calling me pet names...she even wore her wedding ring this week. One day she was tenderly looking me in the eyes and playing with my hair and I felt like she wanted to say something, but she didn't. I'm doing my best not to mind read and to keep my expectations at zero...as I know I could be served with D papers at any moment.
I am reading the book on abandonment that Mach1 gave me as homework...wow, it's eye opening. I think everyone who has ever been abandoned including those here should read this book. We, the abandoned, have a script too--and boy, am I following it to a tee. The author describes what I have been experiencing these past six months and what I now know--listening to all of you--is just part of a common experience. The extra issue for me is that when you have been abandoned multiple times...you have to deal with your current situation multiplied by past ones. Hopefully, I will have some quiet time to finish the book this weekend.
What do you mean...start with something less and preserve right to move to 59-50 later? I didn't even know that was an option?
It seems reasonable to me to agree to something like:
For a transitional period of 3 months Dad sees kids every other weekend; thereafter it's 50-50.
or
While Gordie and his wife agree, Gordie sees his kids every other weekend; but in the absence of an agreement Gordie gets the kids 50-50 (name some schedule, like 3-3-4-4 or 7-7 or something like that.
I'd talk to your lawyer about ways to structure it that way.
Also, I think the reality of these agreements is that they serve to protect you IN CASE you and your wife don't agree. In other words, you and your W can put whatever on paper, but it's always how you two run the show. For example, you could put "50-50" on paper, but in practice you can do 90-10, and the state government is not going to come knocking on your door.
So, you could talk to your wife and tell her you want to put 50-50 on paper as what you default to in case you cannot agree, but that you're willing to try different things to accommodate your kids' changing needs. Your lawyer may not recommend that, but I think that's the reality of how it works.
Finally, you could do 50-50 but that does not prevent a parent from coming to public venues where your kids are, including school and extracurricular events. So regardless of how you phrase all this, you can be there for your kids at their sports games and piano lessons, etc.
I need to re think my current custody stance.
This is what I would suggest...
During the Divorce process, I made a list with three columns..
1-Things that I would not move off of (50/50)
2-Things that I was willing to move off of and negotiate with
3-Things that I did not care about and would offer
And once I defined that list of things, then I knew where my line in the sand was.
I agree about the 50/50 custody. If you do not go after it, you will regret it.
Think about how your life is right now, and see if there is any of the schedules mentioned that would work for you.
One that I have seen success with is the 2-2-5. Say that you have them every Monday and Tuesday, while she has them every Wednesday and Thursday, and you alternate weekends.
What the court is looking for/at, is stability with them. They will look at what has been happening, and what is on the table. So it is best to try to put a plan in place BEFORE you start the legal process.
Start thinking about before and after school care, sitters, etc for them NOW, so that it doesn't bite you in front of the court/mediator.
Court is about perception, and what it appears is going to happen. It is about looking backward to see what has already taken place, and trying to not disrupt a "system"...
Now, whether any of this comes to fruition is yet to be seen, however, you should be prepared for it if it were to happen.
Keep a calendar of days you have them, and she has them, and make sure you are journaling daily events, interactions and such. According to the courts...if it isn't written down, it didn't happen...
The other aspects of the list, were because the court is also looking to see who is reasonable and flexible. If YOU are willing to give and bend, then they seem to be more apt to work toward you with things.
I know this sounds final...it's just part of the being prepared thing.
Doesn't hurt to know what you are going after in the event that this turns South quickly...
I'm glad you are getting something from the book....
X2 ^^
I was never going to budge from 50-50, in my mind I was losing 50% of the time with him as it was.
We do something very similar to the 2-2-5 with a modification due to my job requirements. I have Mondays and Wednesdays, she has Thursdays and Fridays. We alternate Tuesdays and the weekends. (Never going more than 4 days without having him this way) She wanted to alternate Sat/Sun essentially splitting the weekend every week, I refused this thinking long term I did not want to sacrifice every weekend (and knew the courts tend to stay with the ongoing arrangements) ... would be impossible to plan things with or without our son so I dug in for that one though she really tried to fight it. More due to the fact she did not want to be 'alone' which you may/may not encounter.
Another thing to think of ... First right refusal, say she has plans for a night she has the kids, you get first shot to spend the time with them before she opts to send them to a sitter/friends house.
I would also think of the Holiday schedule, this one gets a bit tough when the Holidays come near and you will see them spin, these boards are always very active around that time so I would plan this now and it will save you ... hopefully... some headaches later down the road.
Like Mach said .. it sounds so final and done but you will be glad you have paved this out to protect your rights as a parent while they stroll into the various tunnels.
God, all this talk of custody arrangements [censored]. That is my biggest worry, and the UK doesn't favour fathers too much.
If your job allows it Gordie, get the max you can. My worry is that I leave the house at 5:30 and get back at 7:30, so with a 5 year old, I can't do schools or anything, and W is saying that if I go for joint custody then she will enforce it to the letter of the law. I reckon the best I could do at the moment is every Friday night, Sat, Sun, take D to school on Monday and make up my hours in the week.
I truly hope you can figure something out that works for you and get an agreement with your W. The guys have given some great advice. 50/50 default with agreements to vary per your kids needs does seem the way to go.
in my mind I was losing 50% of the time with him as it was.
That's how I saw it too.
50-50 isn't a win-win. It's a lose-lose. So I'm not going to bargain myself downward from that. I'm already getting robbed of 50% of my kids life.
Gordie
What do you say to your wife when she asks for the MBR? Mine is going on about it again. Said she will never reconcile or forgive me while I have that bed...
How are you dealing with it? Although your spouse doesn't seem aggressive like mine. I'm tempted to put the damn thing in her bedroom while she's out one day.. it will fill it wall to wall
Woke_up,
1. The first time it came up, I followed the advice here. I said that I wasn't going to leave the MBR but if W felt she needed more space and separateness than she should feel free to move to the guest room. She never moved.
2. The second time after she moved my stuff out while I was on a trip? Inside, I freaked out but I told myself not to react emotionally and then just moved my stuff back in and went to bed as if nothing had happened. She didn't say anything.
W wants us to go on a weekend away together. Any suggestions?
W wants us to go on a weekend away together. Any suggestions?
What do YOU want to do?
Personally ... I avoided any 'fake' family time when I knew there was an OP in the picture, this was the definition of cake-eating for me ... she would get that warm fuzzy blanket called family time and then run off and get the OM rush afterwards which drove me mad.
If you can do this, enjoy it without expectations then that's one thing .. I was not good with this personally, every time something like this came up I was convinced she would see how great things were and it would help but it really just gave her more cake.
W wants us to go on a weekend away together. Any suggestions?
I would go, because I believe your W is having a delusional affair, not an actual one -- and speaking for myself -- I can deal with that. It teeters on a boundary but doesn't quite cross it, esp. when you two have continued to be physically intimate. I see your W as going through a phase of poor mental health, and in that context, I'd be OK continuing emotional and physical intimacy. If I felt she was in good mental health and she chose to have an EA, then it may be different.
But ... if you go ... I would carve into my forearm with a steakknife what my boundaries are so that I don't soften and betray my own dignity. For me, it would be that I'm 100% committed to the marriage as long as we're married but once we're divorced and she's moved onto other men, it's over.
Status update: it's March 1st and I still haven't seen any divorce papers...I'm actually quite surprised since my W's stated goal was to file in January...i know it could happen at any time, so doing my best to live one day at a time, trying hard not to relive the past, nor worry about the future...re the relationship, things are "neutral"...on the surface, neither happy nor unhappy...I've become steadier in my behavior and attitude...being less reactive to my W's ups and downs, not trying to mind read/obsess about every action/inaction...I think ForGump is right in that my W is "playing divorce" before actually filing...we are both acting more independently of one another...if feels like neither of us is pursuing/both are distancing...this is frustrating and sometimes I get discouraged that I'm not seeing any progress or improvement...we still have mutually enjoyable sex when the W initiates...I have been tempted to initiate, but have held back..expectations/hope? still not at zero, still fantasize that one of these days she will she will tell me that she wants us work on our relationship...
Any advice? I feel like I need to do something to mix things up, or as my DB coach says, be surprising, interesting, mysterious, unpredictable (these are not my strong suits)...I'm in a bit of a rut...I think I find comfort and safety in the routine, day to day...
Re weekend away...CaliGuy/ForGump, thanks for your suggestions...I've been thinking about it and still have mixed feelings, but leaning towards going...I need to figure out as Cali pointed out if I can go and just have fun with no expectations...and neither of us has brought it up this week...
Re abandonment...book is awesome, but it's a lot to process, so am reading it slowly...very eye opening to me and includes a lot of exercises that have been helpful...explains a lot of my behavior and feelings...challenges me to see abandonment as not just a painful experience...but one that can be a positive...in a what doesn't kill you makes you stronger kind of way...
GAL...ran a local 10k and was one of the top finishers in my age group...that felt good...and must brag that I look damn good too...no one thought I was in my 40s...
Thanks everyone on this board...I've gotten so much support and help here on this journey...
Status update: it's March 1st and I still haven't seen any divorce papers...I'm actually quite surprised since my W's stated goal was to file in January...i know it could happen at any time, so doing my best to live one day at a time, trying hard not to relive the past, nor worry about the future...re the relationship, things are "neutral"...on the surface, neither happy nor unhappy...I've become steadier in my behavior and attitude...being less reactive to my W's ups and downs, not trying to mind read/obsess about every action/inaction...I think ForGump is right in that my W is "playing divorce" before actually filing...we are both acting more independently of one another...if feels like neither of us is pursuing/both are distancing...this is frustrating and sometimes I get discouraged that I'm not seeing any progress or improvement...we still have mutually enjoyable sex when the W initiates...I have been tempted to initiate, but have held back..expectations/hope? still not at zero, still fantasize that one of these days she will she will tell me that she wants us work on our relationship...
The word "divorce"
used to scare the crap out of you...
It is a fuel that the MLCer will put on their fire when they need a boost for their anger towards you....
You prolly won't hear that one much once YOU stop allowing it to be a button for her to push...
Using the word "divorce" is also about control for her. When she feels close, or when she feels vulnerable around you with her emotions, she will use it to give herself back her power and control over her future...and up until recently, it was a tool for her to use to control YOUR emotions. She would bring it up, scare the bajeezus out of you, and things would work in her favor....
When you remove the fear, you also remove the button that makes you dance her dance....
Any advice? I feel like I need to do something to mix things up, or as my DB coach says, be surprising, interesting, mysterious, unpredictable (these are not my strong suits)...I'm in a bit of a rut...I think I find comfort and safety in the routine, day to day...
Mix things up ??
For who ??
If you are talking about doing little things just so that she will notice, with the hopes that she will come running back...???
Then no...
If you mean because you are tired of the same ole, same ole, and you want to immerse yourself into a few GAL activities ???
Then by all means, feel free to do so...
What are some things that YOU would like to do ??
Hobbies ??
Activities ??
So W was crying when I got home. She wouldn't talk to me and just left. What should I do when she comes back?
Mach1
1. Yes, talking about D doesn't cause the same fear response as it used to...yes, there's still mental and physical discomfort, but it's not a total freak out like before. I guess I have somewhat acclimated and accepted that it is probably going to happen but that it isn't the end of my life but it's the start of a new, different phase with a lot of challenges but also opportunities to grow and yes, be happy.
2. Changes for whom? When I wrote that I did mean changes for my W. it's what my DB coach has suggested. Change things up to show W that I'm not as boring and predictable as she thinks I am. I do still want to bust my D.
3. My GAL activities are areas that I enjoy and do not include my W: sports and art. If I had more time, I'd add in music. Also working on finding a better job.
***
W came back and pretended like nothing happened.
So this week, W is crying, low energy, despondent...she never acts this way; she is normally a very upbeat, high energy person...my natural reaction is to try and comfort her...but she doesn't want my comfort...so I've been just been giving her space and doing my own thing with the kids when we are both at home...it hurts to see her hurting...is there anything that I can do for her? I told her one night that I am open to talk to her if she wants to talk and she declined...
Re thoughts on abandonment homework...it reminds me that being alone isn't in and of itself a bad thing...that many sane people choose to be alone...abandonment hurts because it is an involuntarily imposed state of being alone...
It made me think to my pre-marriage days...I was independent...I was strong and comfortable on my own...I've always had close male friends...and I casually dated women, but never let them get too close...it was my W who was the first who I really opened my heart to and the rest is history...and then BD...and I am so needy and clingy and feeling and acting like my life will be over if we get a D...ugh, how unattractive!
I need to get back to that place...independent...strong and comfortable on my own...I still have close male friends...I'm wounded but I'm not dead...I'm starting to see that life will go on, whether or not I'm married...because of the kids, we will be in each others lives for a very long time and no one knows what the future holds...we may move on to other partners...we may get back together...who knows...I guess this is a step in the letting go process...
So this week, W is crying, low energy, despondent...she never acts this way; she is normally a very upbeat, high energy person...
Gord, sounds like your wife is definitely depressed and she feels that it is a direct result of her feelings towards you.
my natural reaction is to try and comfort her...but she doesn't want my comfort...
She doesn't want the person that is making her depressed trying to make her feel better. The same sort of thing happened with my W and a psychologist explained it this way...you are in a small room with a cat and the cat allows you to pet it and scratch it under the neck. The cat comes back over to you and you kick the hell out of it. You then try and pet the cat...what do you think it will do. It definitely won't want you to comfort it at that point.
I'm not saying you physically hurt her, but right now she feels that you are the source of her pain...right?
many sane people choose to be alone...abandonment hurts because it is an involuntarily imposed state of being alone...
You are so right...that is the part that hurts the worst. You didn't choose being alone, but I am beginning to realize that they didn't choose their crisis either. Now if it is simply a WW then that is a different story...they are morally lacking at that point.
I need to get back to that place...independent...strong and comfortable on my own...
Isn't that what GAL'ing is all about? Finding ourselves again.
I'm wounded but I'm not dead...I'm starting to see that life will go on, whether or not I'm married...because of the kids, we will be in each others lives for a very long time and no one knows what the future holds...we may move on to other partners...we may get back together...who knows...I guess this is a step in the letting go process...
Your thoughts are very similar to mine. We will be able to get thru this and thrive no matter what happens to our wives. You are also correct in that we will be in each others lives forever due to the fact that we have kids together. My hardest thing to overcome is my own jealousy, but that I guess comes with complete detachment from her. One thing that keeps popping in my head is to "Let go and let God" take care of her. As it says..."Thy will be done".
Gordie,
Please start a new thread and link your old thread to your new one. I'll take care of linking your new one to this one. Thanks!
New Thread:
Gordie: trying to focus on me 2
You are doing well and have good support lately which really helps. I see a lot of positives on your words. Keep up that forward momentum.
I understand how difficult it is to see your wife upset and not try to comfort her. Now that she has refused your offer, please respect her wish. Maybe as SBJ said she associates you as being the cause of her sadness. But also it could have absolutely nothing to do with you or your M.
She could have broken a toe nail and is upset about her ruined looks. She could have not wanted to talk about that because a broken toe nail is too shameful. OK I exaggerate but it could be a multitude of things. An exercise I read about a while back was to imagine a cause which didn't affect you mentally. You do not have to believe it is true, but that it could be. Once you no longer associate her mood with something negative it is in theory easier to handle and by handle I mean not dwell on it or have the urge to swoop in and save her from it.
Another observation I have noticed is that depression/sadness is better than an angry spewing spouse. Yes easier to live with but more importantly is a better place in terms of saving your M. Not to oversimplify things but in general after depressed/sad the WAS often becomes angry. Then if still unhappy they become numb. Stages are rarely so clear cut and often are cyclic but it may help to see depression as not being all that bad.
I am not belittling what you are going through, but rather change your perspective on it.
I like that you have identified characteristics that you will aim for. That is very good. Make a plan and work towards rebecoming that man.
It is good to realize what behavior/attitude is attractive. But even forgetting about your W those characteristics are attractive for you to. They will improve your self image and being happy with who you are has so many benefits. You are almost there but work on not needing to be married but wanting to be. It is something I worked hard on and it was hard, but it is liberating too, as it takes off the pressure on you, which consequently reduces pressure we inadvertently place on our spouces.
Part of achieving that is realising not only does life go on without our spouses but it can actually be great. It is full of potential. Get excited about what you will do IF ye separate. Get excited about what you can do now.
The one thing that I had/have the biggest problem doing is being happy or appearing so around W. It is hard when living together but I cannot over emphasize it's importance. The first step is to remove negativity.Then work on your own happiness.
Best wishes
Let me guess - did OM break up with her???