Hello all,
This is my first post here. I've read The Divorce Remedy as well as some of Michele's articles online, which led me to this community. I'd love to do some counseling, but with a separation looming, I can't do it right now. So I'm hoping to get some insight from those in the know. Like most people in this situation, I'm an absolute mess. My story is long but I will try to keep is as brief yet detailed as I can. Feel free to ask questions and I can provide info. I've been reading a lot of articles on this board and think I'm at the "going dark" stage of the game right now.
H and I have been married for 18-1/2 years, together for almost 20. He is 42, I'll be 42 this week actually. We have two daughters aged 10 and 12. Our oldest has ADHD and mild ASD (autism spectrum disorder, her particular level would be called Asperger's if it were still given as a dx). H and I both work in finance and have often worked at the same firms over the years. We have been best friends since the start. We don't fight per se, but we don't avoid it. We have arguments when we have to, and bicker occasionally about inconsequential stuff. We agree on the major things (children, finances, etc). Good relationships with both of our families. Both sets of parents are still married. No drugs or alcohol or physical/emotional abuse. My husband's father has depression and a real stigma about it. He's also a hoarder. Not bad enough to be on TV, but bad enough for it to be an issue in their household. The father's sister has also had some similar mental health issues over the years with depression/manic episodes. Before the last year, I would say my husband is one of the best men I know. Honorable, respectful, a good provider and an attentive father. He has been since day one. He's not my doormat and is extremely stubborn (which is why things are so rough right now I think).
So there's a little background on us. I love him with all of my heart, as do our girls. H has struggled mentally with his career. He is successful and earns a good living, is respected by his colleagues. But it's not exactly what he's always wanted to do, and he doesn't find it fulfilling. So he doesn't enjoy it.
About 8 years ago, he was promoted to a great position with a boss/mentor that he really respected. He was feeling great. This lasted for about 3 years, and then the company dissolved the region he managed. He floundered at the company for about a year in various positions before leaving and joining a different financial firm. I had spent the last 5 years as a SAHM but needed to go back to work full time when he switched jobs due to the decrease in salary. The next firm was in the middle of a merger and the year he spent there was exhausting for our family. He worked close to 15 hour days, traveled often. The work s@cked and he was never home. I was adjusting from not working to working full time with 2 kids in school None of us were happy. Then he found a better job, at the company where I am/was working. With the exception of some problems at the company, things were a lot better. We were feeling like things were finally starting to get better on the work/financial side when in Feb 2015 it was announced that our company was being bought out (happens a lot in this industry). My sister and brother in law are high up in this company - my BIL was the CEO. Things were handled in a way that a lot of strain was put on family relationships and we didn't talk with them for over a year. About 4 months after the merger was announced, we knew his job would be eliminated so he went back to the old firm, who wanted him back. He wasn't excited to go back there, and tried a few ideas over the next 6 months to get something else off the ground. Those things fell through, so I think he resolved to stay where he is for the time being.
During this time, our daughter was dx with autism, but honestly parenting her has been a struggle for many years. She is not hard to love, but just hard to raise. School and behavior are a challenge and balancing the attention she needs with our neurotypical daughter is a challenge, especially for me. By January of 2016 we were on a hamster wheel of crappy exhausting jobs and business/challenges/doctors appts with the kids. By the time we got home at night, we were zombies. I kept thinking that if we could just hold on long enough, things would get better and life would get back to normal. We didn't fight about things, but I think we kind of retreated to our separate corners to lick our wounds.
In April 2016 he sat me down to tell me that he feels we've drifted apart and his feelings toward me have changed. I guess you'd call that the first bomb drop? I had always viewed us as a team and would have never thought he'd say that. I should point out that we weren't having a lot of sex, but neither of us was asking for it, so it was another thing I chalked up to getting better when other things calmed down. We did a lot of trips and fun things as a family very consistently. We didn't get a lot of date nights either, we rarely had a babysitter available. So I can see where intimacy slipped away from us.
I had been feeling kind of crappy and depressed, so I saw my doctor and had my hormones and thyroid checked. All was good with me. H thought it would be good to see a therapist because he couldn't figure out why he was feeling so numb toward me. He saw her once alone, then she suggested we start going together. We saw her for 6 months. I tried so many things - we read most of I love you but... , I read a bazillion articles. I set up dates for us, surprised him with a weekend away. I couldn't get him to be physical, could barely get him to hold my hand. Therapist kept talking to him about his "truths", told him he was a people pleaser who was always putting others ahead of his wants. 6 months and we weren't getting anywhere. Therapist also does hypnotherapy, so she did a hypnosis with him in Oct. He sits me down in November to tell me that (1) during the hypnosis session he realizes he has had doubts about our marriage from the beginning (no way, just, no way is that true) and (2) that while under hypnosis if he still wanted to work on our marriage and he said no and (3) even though I asked repeatedly if he had feelings or was involved with someone else, that in fact he DID have feelings for someone else. This is a woman who is his boss at work who is 10 years younger than him. She is also married. We have sat together at company parties. She knows me and knows that we have kids. He claims he started feeling attracted to her last winter while they were traveling and working closely together, but when he started to realize this he distanced himself from her and they stopped spending any time together. She bought him an xbox game for Christmas last year that they used to play together. I'm not a jealous woman. I sat next to him on the couch and knit while they played. What a fool I was! I don't know if he's telling the truth that nothing happened, but I do know that no one believes it. He also told me that he had been reading about MLC and depression and thinks that both are in play (he took up the guitar over the summer). He has lost over 20 pounds (he was 6'2" and 200 lbs - already lean) and wasn't sleeping well at night. I know that he still is not sleeping at night even now. He said he does not need to see a doctor or get on meds because leaving me will fix his depressed feelings. That he is depressed because he "hadn't faced his truth". I'd like to sock that therapist. She also encouraged him NOT to tell me about OW as it wouldn't bring anything to the table. So they both know about it the entire time we were going.
So I guess the 2nd bomb drop ("I don't want to work on things anymore") was on Nov 4 2016. He moved downstairs to our family room and stayed there until Dec 31. He rented a house about 5 minutes away (which his parents are currently paying rent and utilities on) and moved out over New Year's. I started separation proceedings to protect the girls and I because he is acting so unpredictably to his character that I'm not sure what he's doing anymore. The separation agreement should be final this week if his lawyer doesn't raise a stink.
This past Friday I have learned that his boss/OW quit her job and Friday was her last day. I know many people in his office, and was told that the rumors are flying about the 2 of them and that she quit as a preemptive move since she's his boss. I have no proof of an affair, but I think rumors exist for a reason. I sent him a text and asked if he was still sticking to his story of not being involved with her. He said "oh I guess you heard she quit, well she hated her job, blah blah blah" and was angry that people were spreading rumors and that they would bring them back to me. I responded "when you are ready to tell the truth, let me know." He responded with a long email about how we drifted apart years ago (no, we did not.), and how he has gotten to know her more recently and thinks it may make sense to ask her out. He claims that he did try even though I think he didn't, and that he wants to find happiness and find someone who inspires him to love them and be a better husband, which apparently I don't. I lit into him, mostly because I hadn't yet as I had been trying to fix things. I told him he was selfish, that I didn't believe he wasn't having an affair and that what he was supposed to do (since he asked) was honor his commitment to ME and attempt to reconnect with ME and save our family. I told him he was a cliché and he couldn't even see it because he was too stubborn. I am aware these are all the don'ts, but honest to God, it's the worst night I've had in a long time and I just had to let it out. He has texted me twice about dumb things "I have to work on your car one night when I pick the girls up" and "I'm going to drop A's stuff off in a few minutes, FYI". I've not responded and have made sure I don't see him at all when he comes by. I am so hurt and angry that "going dark" doesn't feel too difficult right now.
I'm working on myself. I saw my doctor in November after not eating or sleeping for a week and losing 10 lbs. She put me on Zoloft and Xanax as needed. I still don't sleep well, but I can function. I've started running 3 days a week. I try to hang out with friends more. So I'm working on GAL and doing ok with it on the outside. But I'm miserable on the inside and I cry every night. Our girls are sad and don't understand why he wanted to leave me. I don't understand it. I had my own crap to work on way back in April, and I owned it. He didn't like that I cussed a lot and in front of the kids. I stopped cussing. The girls helped me keep it in check and I stopped. I'm anxious, and I get really short tempered and stressed out, especially with the kids. I worked really hard on that and the kids and I have a wonderful relationship. I made amends with my Sis and BIL and things are great there. My job is going well. I feel like I owned my part in things and fixed it. He acknowledges it and says he still doesn't feel the same.
We are planning to put our house on the market in April. We had been planning to sell anyhow as it's too big and we can't afford it comfortably anyhow. So I'm still living there with the girls, we have a 3/3/4/4 custody arrangement. Once the house sells I need to find somewhere to live. We are keeping finances as is until the house sells or 9/1/17, at which time child support and maintenance will start.
I don't want to divorce him. In NY you go through a year of separation before filing, unless there are other extenuating circumstances such as adultery or abuse that would allow you to file for divorce sooner, as well as some new thing where you can file saying the marriage has been irretrievably broken for 6 months.
We don't talk about the relationship much - when he does he is full on martyr and rewriting our history. He says he sometimes had down feelings but he thought all married people go through that (WE DO) but realizes that's not true. I think he's looking for the limerance and not the maturity of lasting bonds. He hasn't mentioned the word divorce, although my lawyer had us design the separation agreement for the long haul so that we don't have to go back to court if we divorce. So we've planned for the worst in the agreement but he doesn't seem to be in a rush to do anything now that he's moved out.
Ugh, I said I would try to keep this as short as possible but failed miserably! I just wanted to include as much about the picture as I could. I'm sure there are still more things I could add. Feel free to ask and feel free to hit me with any hard truths you see. I think it's a MLC, but maybe I'm just hoping that it is because then there would be a chance he would wake up and come back to us. This is a person who shares all of my interests and hobbies, a person I share intellectual conversations with. We can communicate our thoughts without even speaking. I never ever thought we would be apart. I still wake up thinking it's a bad dream because it's so unbelievable. Our families are beside themselves because it happened so out of the blue.
If you got this far, thank you for indulging me!
-Karen
Welcome to the MLC Forum. I'm sorry you are here, but you'll discover a lot of wonderful people post all over the Forum, including this one. Read as much a you can, take away what you can use and leave the rest behind.
I'm pasting in Cadet's Welcome Thread info. Please read the threads because you will discover a wealth of info.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
Me-62, D30,S29
Thank you for the links, Job. I got a head start on them from reading other posts over the weekend, and will continue making my way through the list. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say!
So sorry you are here Karen. It does sound like your H had rewritten your history to justify his feelings for the ow.
You said the ow is married also but that your H wants to ask her out. Do you know if she has reciprocated or if it is all one sided? Does her H know what is going on? I understand that sometimes you need to let them do what they have to to realise it's not everything they thought it was. I know it's no comfort for you or your girls but there is nothing you can do to change their minds. It's taken me a while to realise this but it's an unfortunate fact.
Read as much as you can on her and post often. If you are angry or sad post it on here so you avoid texting or phoning your H. Cry as much as you want and need to and don't feel guilty. Don't let anyone tell you that you should move on or you should be over it by now. I have had friends tell me that but no one on here will.
Try not to take too much action either. I think you have done all the important stuff to protect you and the girls financially but now don't do anything else to help him have the life that he thinks he wants. Just try get through each day. Take care.
Hey Coly, thanks for the welcome. I'm glad I found this forum; I think it's going to be the lifeline to keep me strong. You're right - pretty much everyone assumes it's over and I should plan for a different future. I'm just not ready to consider that yet.
OW is getting divorced. She has no kids. Her hobbies and interests are identical to mine, except no kids, no baggage. She has already moved into an apt and they are selling their home. I'm fairly certain the feelings are reciprocated. I know her and she's a "hang all over and flirt with the guys" type. Something someone with a vulnerable ego would be susceptible to, no doubt. H in his right mind would see her coming a mile away, but I try to remember this is a different him.
I've been reading a lot today and have saved quite a few links to review again in the future. My situation has so many similarities with others here; I really feel like I'm in the right place to get through this.
I'm hoping his attorney doesn't squawk too much about the agreement. H and I kind of mapped it out together so there aren't any surprises. I really don't want to do anything permanent beyond that. Keeping communication to a minimum and trying to focus on something other than him. The rewriting of our history together is actually harder to bear than the idea of the OW.
Karen you are currently on moderation and it may be a day or so before you are removed from it. I have put in a request this afternoon to have you taken off of moderation.
Hi Karen! I am so very sorry that you are here. But please know you will soon have a wonderful group of virtual friends here to help you through this.
As for myself, my bomb drop was in July and there was an OW in the picture.
I completely here what you are saying when you write that the rewriting is harder to bear than the idea of the OW. As you have probably read, they do it to justify their actions. As hard as it is, keep reminding yourself it is HIM, not you. You know what happened in the marriage. You know what kind of relationship you had with your H.
Continue doing what you are doing. It sounds like you are on the right track.
Keep posting. It does help.
Hugs.
So on this "going dark" thing. After I really told him what I thought of his behavior the other night, I have halted all communication. I have gotten three texts since:
Saturday @ 12pm "I'm going to have to come back when I pick up the girls next week and work on trying to get the scratches out of your bumper in the garage" (he scraped my car backing out the other night)
Sunday @ 6pm "Hey, I'm going to drop off Aly's bear in a few minutes, FYI" (I told her to go downstairs and meet him at the door. Did not greet him or see him.)
Monday @ 7pm "I don't know if Aly told you but she said she thew her keys on the roof. She asked me if I would come get them off. So if its ok I was going to swing over and get them."
I haven't answered any of his texts, which is new for me. Should I be acknowledging them or is this ok? I really just don't want anything to do with him after the other night.
Hey, Karen. Sorry you're here but glad you found the forum. For NC one usually initiates communication only when absolutely necessary and then brief, to the point, but in a light and friendly manner (neighborly). If he reaches out to you, it is ok to respond; but unless it is an emergency or something that needs to be addressed right away (can you pick up child from school...can't find car keys), your response time can be at your leisure or even not at all.
There are variables to NC, though. For instance, one of my 180's was to be a better listener. I'm NC, but if XH calls (usually about something else), I will allow him to vent or talk, with me just listening and validating. Trying to be the lighthouse. We are D (BD to D in just over a year), but I believe he is in MLC and am (at the moment) standing. Its tough at times, but GAL and moving forward really do help.
I wouldn't respond to the texts or you could just say "ok"...they seem to just be to let you know he's coming by. My XH would knock and shout "hellooo?" as if he were entering a friend's house instead of his own house where his wife of 26 years lived. He tried to take care of me and check on me even after he left. "Nice guys"...(SMDH).
Keep posting, read the threads that are suggested, and get busy remembering who you were or finding who you are now. Live authentically and hug those kiddos tight. Buckle up...this road can get rough, but it has some great surprises if you make room and keep your eyes open.
In April 2016 he sat me down to tell me that he feels we've drifted apart and his feelings toward me have changed. I guess you'd call that the first bomb drop? I had always viewed us as a team and would have never thought he'd say that. I should point out that we weren't having a lot of sex, but neither of us was asking for it, so it was another thing I chalked up to getting better when other things calmed down. We did a lot of trips and fun things as a family very consistently. We didn't get a lot of date nights either, we rarely had a babysitter available. So I can see where intimacy slipped away from us.
I'm sorry you find yourself here. As others have said, you are not alone and I can't tell you how much I've learned from others. I've gotten several bomb drops from my W, but the one quoted above struck a cord with me because I've heard it first hand. So a few questions for you.
You say that you guys are still very compatible in terms of your interests and intellect, but it seems like you've lost the emotional connection and physical/sexual connection. What happened on those fronts? Were they good in the beginning but atrophied with the professional/financial/parental challenges? Were you able to share your inner lives with one another? Was the loss of sexual intimacy the cause or effect of drifting apart?
Hello KarenHC,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It is estimated that one of every three married couples struggles with problems associated with mismatched sexual desire. Michele has an excellent video regarding the Sex Starved Marriage. Please email me if you would like me to send you the link at no charge.
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal.
Focus all of your time, effort and energy into being the best KarenHC and mom that only a fool would leave.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Testing...not sure if I'm still on moderation or if my last post yesterday just didn't make it through?
[quote=Gordie
You say that you guys are still very compatible in terms of your interests and intellect, but it seems like you've lost the emotional connection and physical/sexual connection. What happened on those fronts? Were they good in the beginning but atrophied with the professional/financial/parental challenges? Were you able to share your inner lives with one another? Was the loss of sexual intimacy the cause or effect of drifting apart? [/quote]
Okay, looks like I must have screwed up my response yesterday. We shared everything with each other. We were truly a team, best friends. We were always close, sex was always good. Not always frequent, but always good. It wasn't an issue of where I wanted more than he wanted or vice versa. I guess neither of us prioritized it because we were doing other things like working and raising little kids. In hindsight I realize how important it was and we both should have worked a lot harder to maintain that intimate connection. Two years ago, he surprised me for my 40th with a family party at Dave & Busters (we love video games) and at the party he surprised me with a trip to Jamaica, just the two of us. It was an awesome trip. We had a private Valentine's Day dinner on the beach, super romantic. Lots of relaxing and fun and (ahem) lots of other things. We didn't want to leave on our last morning there. I think of that trip just two years ago when he rewrites our history. I know that was real. When we got back from that trip, we got the call about the company buyout and that is when everything started falling apart.
Was the loss of sexual intimacy the cause of effect of drifting apart? I don't know. It's like the chicken and the egg. I guess a little bit of both?
Karen,
You were taken off moderation on Tuesday morning. Are you sure you hit the submit button when you posted earlier?
Who knows. I probably didn't, no worries though!
I'm no MLC expert but you asked if we can tell you. It feels like he is running away from the challenges of life...career not working out, a difficult parenting situation, and what to him might feel like a loveless and sexless M...and into the arms of the OW. Those are signs of panic, immaturity, selfishness, maybe depression, maybe MLC. Is he obsessed with aging/youth, working out/appearance, fear of sickness/death? Have you read that famous John Updike novel about a man like your H who is trying to run away from his life and makes messes wherever he goes?
Hmm...he hasn't articulated a problem with aging. He lost around 20 pounds last winter but he wasn't trying to. He just wasn't eating much. We used to run together but he hasn't exercised in a long time. It would be good for him to do so, but I digress. Like I said, he's tall and lean so he's not putting on pounds. He has been spending some of his free time with people from work, one guy I know is only around 30 and of course the OW is only 33. He hasn't communicated much with "our" friends who are his own age.
The main thing that makes me think MLC (besides the depression) is his erratic behavior - the "mirror image". So many of his choices lately have not been typical. Even little things. My 12 year old asked me to make her an appointment to speak with a counselor as she's been feeling some emotional numbness/depression. I texted him on Tuesday (the first time I've communicated to him since Friday night's blow up) and asked what he has planned with them for Feb break (he has them) because she wanted me to take her to see a counselor. He responded with what he has planned/when she will be free. Didn't ask about her at all. So unlike him. He texted me yesterday and asked if there was anything he needed to know about why she was asking to see a counselor. As if skipping out on your wife and kids and renting a house down the street wasn't enough of a reason?
I've never read that book but I just looked it up on Amazon - is it Rabbit, Run? I'm inclined to check it out.
1. Well, ditching your old friends/pets/children/spouse is a typical trait of MLC and they usually get replaced by younger and/or like minded single/divorced people who will support your H's new life/lifestyle/romantic interests. Typically, looking younger (working out, dying your hair, plastic surgery), acting younger, and fears of aging/death are also part of the package. Also, going back to/getting stuck on some prior trauma from youth/family of origin is also part of the package (conscious or unconscious).
2. Re your H's reaction to the counseling, I think the advice given to me which I will pass on to you is to keep your expectations at ZERO. This is for your protection. When you expect him to do the normal thing (show concern for his children) and he doesn't do it, it only upsets YOU. Treat him like a male neighbor or a store clerk. You can be polite and friendly and ask them about their day or the weather, but you don't expect anything from them emotionally or physically.
3. Yes, that's the book. It's literature, not self help, but can give you insight into the walk away husband's mindset and the crazy things he can do. Not sure you want to read it in your current state of mind/situation, as it may hit too close to home. But it's a classic of 20th century English language literature for a reason, so thought you may have bumped into it along the way. Maybe read a summary of the book before you buy it and decide whether or not it is helpful/hurtful for you.
Expectations is definitely something I'm working on. Honestly I expected once he was gone for a few weeks that he would show up going "what did I just do?", instead I found out he's really probably with OW. So expectations hit me like a hammer. I need to learn Expectations and Detachment, and fast.
He's definitely stuck. He went through something similar on a far smaller scale about 15 years ago. Was reading all these books like "What color is your parachute" trying to figure out what he wanted out of life. I feel like that might be an undercurrent. Just general dissatisfaction, but maybe that's also the depression poking around.
The other trait I'm seeing with him that's different for "standard" MLC is that he isn't nasty or angry. He's more...despondent. Extreme martyr. I guess if he takes all the blame for everything that's happening that he's somehow absolved? He is just completely checked out. He claims to feel awful at the loss of our relationship, he claims to have cried and still cries over it. And then in the next breath tells me he's thinking of asking OW out (pretty sure they're already together but he's going to deny that to the bitter end). But that he knows this is "the right thing" and we'll all be happier. That I deserve someone who is inspired to be a good husband and he just isn't. He's right, I'm well aware of what I deserve. I just know that guy is still in there, somewhere.
Having said that, he gaslighted me a little the other night when I was trying to get him to be honest about OW. Our marriage counselor got him stuck on the idea of "telling his truth". I guess he's working on being honest with himself but not necessarily with me. So part of the text he sent the other night went "Since you are wanting me to deliver truth which I am trying to be with myself...my truth is that I don't think focusing on who I or you may date has any value at all. I have spoken to Monica and learned more about her recently. And I may decide it makes sense to ask her out. Or maybe not. But by mentioning that I'm guessing that will be all that's taken away." I'm not sure if it's gaslighting or victim blaming, but that last sentence set my teeth on edge. He can't have any idea how painful it is to read something like that from your mate.
I just don't get it. If you're sad to lose our relationship and you feel so awful, why not put some effort into reconnecting and keeping it? We had a good life. Great kids, best friends, mutual respect. Why not try to hang on to that?
He should have the separation agreement in his hands by now, but I haven't heard anything from him or my attorney about it...
Karen, I am no expert, but everyone says that detachment is the key and setting your expectations of them and anything from them to zero is a must.
My W is not an angry MLC'er either...she is happy go lucky all the time, at least when she is around other people. We don't see them when they are alone, so who knows really what is going on with them emotionally.
As far as right from wrong...I think they pick and choose what to believe in that department. They are only concerned with what is right for them...this is their selfishness I think.
I too wonder about how they deal with hurting us as their longtime spouse/best friend. I can't get it either. I'd like to think that I would never be able to do that to someone I love, but I'm not the one in that type of crisis. If you get a chance to read anything posted on these boards from AmyC, it might give you an idea of what goes thru the mind of one in MLC.
God Bless!!!
Well, in MLC their "empathy chips" are busted. And sure, some of them will talk your ear off having no self awareness nor situational awareness. Their wiring is all jumbled. Painful as it, if you can try to listen, you will learn more of where his head is.
They have massive confusion and it's genuine. My h would say the most outlandish things and the next day not remember any of it. He doesn't want to work at the r because he is regressing emotionally and he's going to seek out "fixes." No one knows what forms these will take: spending, partying, OW, drugs, tattoos, vitamins or all these and then some more.
Anyway, welcome and continue to take care of you.
Kind of OCD type of fixes? I think my W is stuck on her fitness and her youthful appearance. She is 5'2", 110#, with washboard abs and she has just decided to go on a carb free diet so she can trim down. She is already very low body fat since you can see her abs.
She has also decided to start with the botox and wrinkle fillers on a semi regular basis. She is 43yo and looks better now than she ever has...ok maybe not, I started dating her when she was 18...she was hot. All kidding aside, I have heard of these addiction type activities and these are the only ones I can see for her. She doesn't drink and she barely takes Tylenol for headaches. She has always been a spender, so that hasn't changed.
Karen, our stories and timelines are so similar! Your H's answers are very similar to mine.
I'm sorry you're going through this. You seem so intelligent and strong ! You'll get through this!
Karen,
I am so sorry that you find yourself going through this nightmare. It’s very hard, I know.
Couldn’t help but see myself in your post:
“Expectations is definitely something I'm working on. Honestly I expected once he was gone for a few weeks that he would show up going "what did I just do?", instead I found out he's really probably with OW. So expectations hit me like a hammer. I need to learn Expectations and Detachment, and fast.”
The biggest thing I’ve learnt from my experience is that there’s nothing I could have done that would have made a difference to my XH's MLC trajectory or to how he treated me and our kids.
So my advice would be to try to accept that you can’t influence him any more - about anything. This was the hardest thing for me to come to grips with.
I’m nearly 6 years in, and there’s no sign that my XH has made any progress or has any insight into how he’s treated us. I’ve heard that he has broken up with OW, and then gotten back with her several times over. We heard he moved to Cambodia to live and then moved back to our town where we think he now lives with his mother (he is 47 years old).
The fact that, at the start, he often cried and told me how confused he was; that he apologized repeatedly for what he was doing (maintaining an affair and walking out on his children, aged 12 and 15 at the time) made me even more certain that he would miss us and eventually come back .
Well, that 12yo boy turned 18 last year, and my daughter celebrated her 21st last week. XH was nowhere to be seen.
Experienced and caring people on this site gave me good advice along the way when I posted in despair: set your expectations at zero, detach, remember that he fired you as his wife; DB is for you, not for him; this is a marathon, not a sprint.
I tried to take this advice on board, but always, at the back of my mind, was the thought that this man would eventually come back to his family, who he had loved so much – I knew in my heart that eventually he’d come to his senses and return to us. I spent months and months, indeed years of my life, trying to strategize and plan and present myself to him as someone he’d want to be with (DBing to get him back, if you like.)
Now in my 6th year without him, what I’ve learned is it didn’t matter what I did or didn’t do in relation to him along the way. I tried so hard to stand for our marriage, even when he changed into monster mode (around the time of D settlement).
Looking back on this process, what I’ve realized is that nothing that you can contribute seems to influence an MLC-er. It seems that for those going through an MLC, the only way out is to keep going. And often that takes a very long time.
This is what everyone means when they say DB is for you; not to try to win him back or make him see the wrongness or irrationality of his choices.
The good news is that eventually you realize that the personal changes you’ve made and the pain and suffering you’ve endured might actually have been worth it. You are a different, stronger, better person.
What I’m trying to say is that, in hindsight, I spent far too long thinking that I could do something to make him come back, treat us better, realize that he still loved us. I really think that MLC is something that can’t be controlled, rather has to be endured and lived through.
Or maybe it’s just that you can never really control anyone but yourself. I get that now.
I truly hope it might be different for you - obviously some come out of the fog quicker than others. Just be prepared for the long haul, and don't worry too much about how he'll react / think about the things you do or don't do.
Hi Karen,
I'm sorry you find yourself here. I suggest finding posters and/or threads that help you find insight into your own particular situation.
I'd also search the boards here for any testimony from MLC survivors. It's been 1 year for me and I still get incredibly angry about what my W is doing to our family. I struggle with forgiveness and empathy. Reading from the MLCers themselves helps me to understand what a mess their mind is. Some posters to search for include AmyC / Amy40, Wonka, M Go Blue, mirage (I think Cadet is a survivor too). Listen to job as well.
My only 2 cents is watch out for further rewriting of history. My W will rewrite things that happened earlier in that same day. Also, the more horrible behavior your H seeks to get into, the more gaslighting he will engage in. Watch out for that.
From your introductory post, you are definitely one smart, tough woman. You have got a grip on things pretty clearly.
HI K
Seems like you have already gotten some great advice
Its a long road and as was already said there is nothing we could do or have done to stop it
The Mlcer changes be4 our eyes from a devoted dad to a Disney unavailable dad
Many of them follow a pattern, they rewrite history, dress younger, loose weight, spend a lot of money and many hang out with younger friends become neglectful of the kids
My XH got a motorcycle, dyed his hair and eyebrows, wore younger clothes
mine Lied about the OW until the end..he M her as far as I know they are still M
although he has confided to a mutual friend he wants out of the M
Yes they leave to find the happiness that they dont have with us
but what they dont realize is happiness is a choice and a behavior
no one else can make you happy or unhappy
My MLcer xh is miserable now..I got confirmation of that when He left a voice mail to me on my work phone a few months ago..He never found the rainbow
DB is for us
we become a solid rock for our kids
We grow change and become the people we want to be
and yes we find happiness again whether they return or not
I remember MY XH told me I wanted this also and I would meet someone I would be happier with
I didn't want my D and would have done anything to bring him back
but now I am grateful he has left
I have a great kind and available BF for many years and my kids are both doing well
Kind of OCD type of fixes? I think my W is stuck on her fitness and her youthful appearance.
SBJ -
What I'm seeing is OCD / ADD type fixes! My W gets heavily fixated on
one thing for a couple of months and then moves on to something else. Perhaps this is just my sitch.
All her fixes are related to improving her appearance or her social life (Girls nights, cardio workouts, painting class, jogging, alumni reunions, wonder diets, etc.). Right now she is obsessed with keeping her legs hairless. She plucks at her bikini area with tweezers almost every night. A couple of weeks ago she locked herself in our attic for over a half-hour with her depilatory razor buzzing the entire time, well after midnight.
Like many MLCers, my W is clutching her cell phone all day long. Now, alongside any activity she does, she is also playing music or on a phone call. It's like she has to be doing 2 things at once whenever she can.
Karen, our stories and timelines are so similar! Your H's answers are very similar to mine.
I'm sorry you're going through this. You seem so intelligent and strong ! You'll get through this!
Thank you Marye - and yes, they sure are! I've been reading your thread as well. They really mean it when they say to buckle up, don't they?
HaWho, SBJ, NLW, Brubeck and Peacetoday... thank you all for your kind welcomes and insight. I'm hoping to continue to learn how to apply this wisdom effectively in the coming months. It's been what... 10 months since BD and I still feel like I got the wind knocked out of me.
I'm having a tough week. I feel like I get to a point where I'm gathering steam and moving along nicely, and then something knocks me off my horse, you know? I've been running 3x a week and signed up last week for my first 5k. But also last week I got off my running game due to some busy evenings and no time to run.
Then my birthday was Saturday, which friends and family made extra special for me, but still it was tough. H had the girls - D12 had the stomach bug and was in bed but D10 and I got together so I could take her to breakfast on Saturday. It was just a weird day and not one I'd like to repeat. Still, I turned 42 and since it's the answer to everything in the Universe, I'm hoping that things start to make sense for me this year.
Then, last night we had a huge snowstorm. The news had been hyping it all weekend and it started yesterday afternoon. By the time we woke up today there was a good 12 or more inches in my driveway and a solid 2-1/2 feet at the end where the plows had snowed us in. Part of the agreement with H moving out was that he would still keep up the house as though he was here, be it snow removal or mowing. He was not to be seen this morning so I texted him. Waited 45 mins (late to work now) and no reply, so I called a plow guy and ordered a plow. Then H finally texts me back and says he'd turn around from his commute to work. I texted back (which I should not have done) and said I wasn't sure why when he had to shovel himself out why he wouldn't think the driveway would be done, but then I'm trying to temper my expectations...(I was an hour late for work at this point and was hopping mad) He texts back and says he has turned around and is coming over. I told him not to bother, that plow guy already answered. I got a contrite apology and he said he'd stop over tonight in case it needed it again. Plow guy didn't show up until noon so I ended up having to take a vacation day. H comes by around 6 and snowblows the turnaround that the plow guy plowed in (we have a 200' driveway and a two lane spot by the garage to turn around in). Which then made me feel bad for being snotty this morning, even though he is the one who failed to keep up his end of the deal. I texted him to say thank you for blowing out the turnaround, he texted back and said he was sorry again about this morning.
I just feel crappy now. I'm upset that he didn't do the driveway, upset that I lost my temper, upset that he apologized 3 times and fixed it, upset that he isn't here. It just [censored]. And tomorrow is Valentine's Day, and for the first time in 20 years, I hate it. I did do something special for the girls for when they wake up, and I'm taking them to dinner tomorrow (they refused to leave me to spend Valentine's with their dad). I told him he could come by after we get home from dinner so that he can give them their valentines from him.
Ugh. I was just feeling so good until the end of last week and now I feel like a hot mess all over again. I thought it was the MLCrs who were supposed to cycle? I find myself wondering if he got OW a valentine. I need to climb out of my black hole again.
Great job re the running. And happy birthday! I'm glad you were able to spend it with people who love you and the girls, even with the sickness.
Re the driveway. That's a tough one as he didn't do what he said he was going to do and it just reminds you that he wasn't thinking of you. These little things are like daggers to the heart. I think this is why the vets tell us to keep our expectations at zero. When they are above zero, your H has the opportunity to affect how you are feeling and you need to free yourself from that--take that power away from him.
Happy Valentine's Day--hope you can make it positive for your girls and yourself.
Karen,
Happy belated birthday! I'm glad you spent it w/people who love and care about you. Sorry to hear that one of your children was sick, but hopefully better now.
Even though your h has agreed to do things around the hope, I would still have Plan B in place if he doesn't show after an hour. You can't rely on them to keep their promises as they are not the people we once knew pre-crisis. That person is now gone and a teenager has replaced him. To avoid this frustration again, keep the guy's number handy and have him come out and plow you out. Expectations w/an MLCer will always be a disappointment and keep you frustrated and angry. Drop them down to zero.
I hope today is a good day for you. Happy Valentine's Day! Do something special for yourself...you've earned it.
So both of you want S and not D? Is H now with OW?
I don't know what he wants. Or maybe I do and I don't want to admit it. He's never used the word divorce, but I think he avoids saying unpleasant things because he is such a champion at conflict avoidance and he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy. That's not working out well at the moment, but I doubt he can see that.
He's said we drifted apart a long time ago, he's said he doesn't want to work on it (based on what his subconscious told him in hypnosis), says he wants to be happy and find someone who inspires him to be a better husband.
I don't know if he's rewriting history or if I'm just telling myself that to make it easier on myself. I don't see how we could have been so happy for years if he had these regrets all along. How do you fake it for 20 years without letting it show?
I don't want S or D. But I filed for S because I want something legal in place so our daughters and I are protected financially. I just don't know where his head is and I want to be prepared. Our mortgage is hefty and he makes twice as much as I do. So it was really just a protective move. He had been asking me weekly when it will be done. I feel like he wants to have it legal so he can be public about OW even though he continues to deny the relationship. I guess that would help him justify his behavior. The weird thing is - my lawyer sent him the final copy on 2/6 and I have not heard a word about it. Not from him, his lawyer, nothing. I don't get it.
I haven't updated simply because nothing has happened. After the blowup about OW on 2/4, I have been as NC as I can possibly be.
Funny story - the lawyer he hired had a contest for Valentine's Day where he was raffling off a free divorce. There were commercials all over TV. Classy guy.
D12 has asked to start seeing a counselor - this is actually regarding some difficulties she was having prior to H telling them he was leaving. I think she has some depression. He and I have the first appt with the counselor alone tomorrow so she can get a history on D12 and some background before they start meeting. I'm a little nervous to sit there and discuss the sitch with her since he and I have had so little contact lately. I want to just keep the focus on D12 and what she needs and keep it off of the two of us. But stuffing my emotions is extremely difficult for me. Kind of dreading it.
I don't know if he's rewriting history or if I'm just telling myself that to make it easier on myself. I don't see how we could have been so happy for years if he had these regrets all along. How do you fake it for 20 years without letting it show?
He wasn't faking it for 20 years; going to the point of having children and buying a house. He is rewriting your history together, plain and simple. Don't fall for it.
Maybe you've already acknowledged the following and don't need to hear this, but you've got to see your H as someone very different. The man you were married to is GONE. He might return to form one day, but for now he is buried deep underneath MLC.
It's been just over a year for me, and I feel like I've only recently started to take steps to truly accept my W is not the same person anymore. I have to remind myself often, because my W has retained some of her preferences, habits & behaviors - and thus appears to be the same person. Your H may still seem the same in many ways. That may throw you off and make you think he's really the same, only that he feels differently about you. Not so. He feels differently about many things, most of all himself.
I find detaching and GALing is easy in theory, difficult in practice. It takes so much effort for me to take my eyes off the trainwreck unfolding in my house. When I'm able to pull it off, it works. The stress is gone.
my lawyer sent him the final copy on 2/6 and I have not heard a word about it. Not from him, his lawyer, nothing. I don't get it.
You're going to be saying "I don't get it" a lot. Many times, they don't make any sense...
Like many MLCers, my W has a few
new acquaintances that I call "MLC Friends". Last week my W was complaining to an old friend about how incredibly clingy MLC Friend #1 is. She gave a big speech declaring how she's going to make a concerted effort to distance herself from MLC Friend #1 because her overt neediness was suffocating. What happened next? She spent much of the entire weekend going places with MLC Friend #1. Their skull is filled with spaghetti where their brain use to be.
You are NOT crazy. You are just in a crazy situation that he thinks is perfectly normal, and that makes you think you're crazy.
He's said we drifted apart a long time ago, he's said he doesn't want to work on it (based on what his subconscious told him in hypnosis), says he wants to be happy and find someone who inspires him to be a better husband.
I don't know if he's rewriting history or if I'm just telling myself that to make it easier on myself. I don't see how we could have been so happy for years if he had these regrets all along. How do you fake it for 20 years without letting it show?
I find detaching and GALing is easy in theory, difficult in practice. It takes so much effort for me to take my eyes off the trainwreck unfolding in my house. When I'm able to pull it off, it works. The stress is gone.
It's just hard to detach from someone that "you" are committed to. You have to put them into God's hands and allow him to work in their lives. Keep yourself grounded in your own faith and you will thrive.
You're going to be saying "I don't get it" a lot. Many times, they don't make any sense...
Their skull is filled with spaghetti where their brain use to be.
My W is gluten intolerant so hers is filled with spaghetti squash instead of pasta...haha.
You are NOT crazy. You are just in a crazy situation that he thinks is perfectly normal, and that makes you think you're crazy.
Mental wounds not healing
Who and what's to blame
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
If you haven't read the lighthouse story, I suggest you do it. No matter how crazy things are with our spouses, we need to remain strong no matter what is going on with them. Stand strong in the storm and know that you are not doing this all on your own.
SBJ's observations are fantastic and on point.
My W also changed the script - nearly identical. "I haven't been happy for the past 2 years". It went to 6 years, then 8 years.
Afterwards, she was telling friends...
"The first year was great, everything else after that was sh*t".
"I was happy for a minute."
"I was never happy."
"I've hated him for years."
She updated me last month...
"You know - when you proposed to me, I was over you. I was already moving on. I just married you because it was the next logical step. It's what people do. I've spent the entire time wondering what I'm doing with you."
Karen, don't be surprised if he says something similar.
Using Ozzy lyrics for a little life inspiration are always welcome!
I'm so glad to hear that I'm not the one who's saying crazy things. In my darker times I'm really looking inward to figure out what's wrong with me that he was so unhappy. I always supported him, was always proud to be with him, tried to be a good wife and mother and it wasn't enough. Nothing messes with your self worth like trying your best and being told you aren't good enough by the person who matters most to you. Hearing confirmation of the MLCr's need to rewrite history helps to bring me back from that pit a little.
We had the initial meeting with D12's therapist today (just H and I). The therapist will be amazing and extremely helpful for her, I can already tell. I spent the whole 90 minutes wanting to punch him out. Therapist asked how the girls were doing with everything so far (keep in mind we just told them in Nov and he just moved in Jan). H says they're doing pretty well, it's more of an annoyance to them to have to constantly pack a suitcase. REALLY. I sat there trying my best to swallow the venom that I wanted to spew and keep my ego out of it. I really wanted to keep the focus on helping D12 deal with this. But man, I wanted to just shake him. He seemed so nonplussed by it. It's like someone just pulled the plug on his emotions... that or he's just taking a lot of lithium.
I know in Gordie's thread there was talk about not wanting to criticize the spouse, and for a long time I have been defending him and what he's doing. But now I'm just so angry that I don't want to defend him. And I think he's right, I do deserve better than what I'm getting from him. I think it's coming from a place of immense pain, but I find it a struggle to be the lighthouse (I have read that, yes). I do admire those that have the strength to keep the lights on through all of this. I'm going to have to dig deep if I plan to do the same.
Karen...I agree with you about cycling between confusion and total anger. I take things one day at a time.
My W has also checked out emotionally...she shows no emotion or remorse. I just take it in and try and tell myself that she isn't the woman that I fell in love with. She is in a total depressed state and is validating her feelings by pushing me away and trying to get me to agree with her.
We will never understand what they are going thru. We would also never walk out on our family. All we can do now is take things one day at a time and continue to build ourselves up. Make yourself into the woman that you know you are.
My W has also checked out emotionally...she shows no emotion or remorse.
Remorse, what's that? My W actually told me as we were discussing our D settlement that she feels so excited...like an 18 yo heading off to college...
uRworthy helped me with the anger side of this immensely. Looking back I had been dealing with MLC for about 2 years though had no idea what I was dealing with at the time ... in fact I was leaning more towards her being Bi-Polar as her sister and mother had similar traits, now knowing more about both Bi-Polar and MLC I am certain all 3 are MLCrs. Not knowing what was going on nor how to deal with it all made me confused and then anger came in to take the place of the confusion. Thank the heavens for this site.
In uR's wise words .... "Anger is not necessarily a bad thing provided you do not live there, use it as fuel to get you over the stuck portion and arrive where you need to be."
I found this too came in cycles and different intensities and would be triggered from the strangest of places, but I learned to harness it and it helped me detach, and move away from where I would find myself stuck at times.
As far as the remorse .... in what I have read, that happens far later in the process if at all. My MLCr actually showed a little in 2015 for about 2 months here and there .... I do think the guilt and shame landed her square back into the tunnel as its not easy for them to face, nor is it easy for them to admit. While in replay they are far to consumed with themselves and the pursuit of their of happiness so if you find yourself waiting for that apology you should go ahead and revisit the No Expectation portion of all this.
Not much to report on my front right now...
S agreement was mailed to H on 2/6, no word. I finally texted him today to ask where it was at (since he hounded me about it for weeks until it was mailed to him). He said his lawyer still has it and it should be done this week. Makes me wonder what's up since H and I essentially went through all the bullet points and designed it together. It's not like anything surprising was on it, but then his atty has to make money somehow I guess. Hope it can still be filed uncontested, I don't need the stress or expense of that whole mess.
Still running, I'm on week 5 of a couch-to-5k program. I'm registered for a 5k in June so hopefully I should be doing pretty well at that point.
Went out with a girlfriend for Thai last night and went to see some acoustic blues acts which was very fun.
H had the kids for their winter break this week. Oddly he dropped them off at his parents on Weds (2 hours away) and didn't go back to pick them up until Sat. Seemed like a nice opportunity to take a couple days off work and hang with them, but I don't know who this man is anymore, so it's anyone's guess. D10 called me bawling and hyperventilating begging me to pick her up. She didn't want to go but H told her that if they didn't go it would hurt GM/GF feelings. Not sure why their feelings are ranked above his kids. Circle back to things that don't make sense to me.
One thing I hate about this MLC is that the LBS seems to be left behind to clean up the mess, take the brunt of kid frustration/anger... along with the general heartbreak of losing the future that you planned on and believed in. Sometimes it feels like too much on my shoulders. Starting to pack the house as we agreed to get it on the market by April. 3000sqft and no one here but me to do the heavy lifting. [censored].
Anyhow, kids are back after a week with their Dad..the house sure was quiet with just the dog and me. I'm not sure which of us is happier to see them!
I guess everything is on pause until we hear what surprises H's lawyer has in store for us. Like he hasn't taken enough already.
I'm not a Beyonce fan by any stretch, but I've been listening to A LOT of Lemonade lately. It's therapeutic.
K
Hi
yes you are right on..The LBS takes the full responsibility for pretty much everything
keeping the house together , the kids, finances, ect especially during the Separation -
being there for the kids during the transition
It helps them to have one stable parent available since the MLC is not as available as they may have been
Some MLCers become Disney dads, while others check out totally
Its hard to watch and understand for sure
You seem grounded..It will get easier for everyone in time and the more you can reach out to be there emotionally for your kids, the better they will be
Not that you have to talk about the separation /MLC issue..unless they bring it up
but just so they know they can count and come to you
they will see Dad is different and may not totally get it-
Hang in and keep posting
Okay, so D12 has a choral concert at her school tonight. It's my night with the girls, and they requested going out to eat at this casual Mexican place by the school afterward. H will be at the concert. I'm debating asking him if he'd like to join us.
On the one hand, I haven't had much of anything to say to him since 2/4 when I found out his office was gossiping about him and OW who supposedly quit her job to avoid a conflict of interest. He denies this but said he might ask her out. I think they're together but whatever. So I've been so furious about it that I have only communicated regarding necessities such as kids' schedules, the impending separation agreement or finances.
On the other hand, I want this man to wake up and return to his family. But then, there I am NOT keeping my expectations at zero. So if I invite him to dinner, is that pursuing or being neighborly? I feel like it's a fine line showing them that LBS and family are worth returning to but at the same time not pursuing. Advice?
Karen, I don't have any advice, but like you it seems that if they see how good you are doing then maybe at some point something will click. That is the way normal people think...right? I think that is the problem. They aren't thinking as a normal person.
I think that if you can keep zero expectations then it should be ok to have him for dinner. You are asking him to join you in taking out the kids after a school funx. It isn't a date. I might be totally off base, but that is my unprofessional opinion.
H had the kids for their winter break this week. Oddly he dropped them off at his parents on Weds (2 hours away) and didn't go back to pick them up until Sat. Seemed like a nice opportunity to take a couple days off work and hang with them, but I don't know who this man is anymore, so it's anyone's guess. D10 called me bawling and hyperventilating begging me to pick her up. She didn't want to go but H told her that if they didn't go it would hurt GM/GF feelings. Not sure why their feelings are ranked above his kids. Circle back to things that don't make sense to me.
1. This story made me so, so sad for you and your kids. How are you managing this parenting situation?
2. Re inviting to dinner after the concert...I see both sides of your argument. If you can look great and have an awesome attitude and have a great time with your kids with your H there...then I'd invite him. If it's going to make everything tense and moody and spoil the evening...then don't.
Okay, I think I'll just play it casual and if he comes, we'll have an enjoyable family dinner like we used to, and if not that's fine as well. I can turn off my inner turmoil for an hour.
Gordie - it stinks. I don't know if I'd call it 'managing' the situation. D12 is at what we're calling her "Hot Topic" phase (as in, the store). Wears all black, is annoyed by everyone etc. She texts her Dad constantly and he is constantly answering her. I will text her while I'm at work to ask how her day was, or send her a funny meme or something and I get crickets. That's how she was all last week when they were gone. I barely heard from her. I try to remember she's only 12 and she misses her Dad... but it definitely hurts. Selfishly, it hurts too because he left us and I feel like subconsciously she is punishing me for that.
We did not have dinner together.
After D12 came back to us after the show, I casually said "we're headed to the Mexican place for dinner; you're welcome to join us if you'd like." He started to say no, then looked at D12 and said well, should I come out for Mexican? To which D12 said, I don't want to tell you what to do, I don't want you to come if it would be awkward. Then there was a little quiet back and forth between them while we were walking and he said we could go to dinner without him. I said ok, see ya, very lightly and we went on our way.
I think the thing about expectations is that in order to really reduce your expectations to zero, you just have to have your heart ripped out and stomped on so many times by this person that you get used to it. Like being desensitized to violence. I think until I get used to that happening, my expectations will never hit zero.
His brother and I use a code word when we talk now and one of us describes an interaction with H. We just say "Bubble." Both as definition and explanation. He is also isolated from H and is also feeling the pain of that rejection. Rip, stomp, rip, stomp.
KarenHC,
1. Re Lemonade...the odd thing is, my W listens to this all the time...I've wanted to ask her about the irony about it being about a betrayed spouse...and reconciliation...but I don't...she sees it as an album about women's empowerment...
2. Re expectations...being desensitized to violence...emotional violence rendered against you...I think you are right...
3. Re D12...I don't know the dynamics, but has she "taken sides" with your H?
Wow, it's hard to believe she can't actually grasp the meaning behind Lemonade - it's not like it wasn't all over the news when the album came out. Like I said, I'm not even a Beyoncé fan and I knew all about it. The part of the album that resonates the most for me is the video intro for "Sorry" which is spoken word of the following:
"So what are you gonna say at my funeral, now that you've killed me? 'Here lies the body of the love of my life, whose heart I broke without a gun to my head. Here lies the mother of my children, both living and dead, rest in peace my true love, who I took for granted. Most bomb ****, who because of me, sleep evaded. Her shroud is loneliness. Her God was listening. Her Heaven will be a love without betrayal.'"
Sometimes I just listen to the beginning of the song, just to hear that part.
D12 has always been very attached to H. She is his "mini me" whereas D10 is my "mini me" both in looks and personality. I've struggled with my relationship with D12 because our personalities are like oil and water and because I shouldered a lot of the burden of her difficulties and am the disciplinarian. She gravitates to him because he isn't the one nagging her about homework, bedtime, etc. Has she taken sides with him? Maybe. I thought about asking her if she blames me, but she may be too young yet to even process what that means. I'm trying to keep the structure at home the same as before he left - still on her case to pick up after herself and do her homework. I think she might think she should get a pass, as she certainly does with him as he no longer feels the need to parent in that respect. So yeah, maybe.
Karen...I think that our kids will always push the boundaries just to see how far they can push. That doesn't change when our situations turn to separation. My W was always the disciplinarian, but since she has moved out, I have turned up the heat. For a while things slid, but at a certain point, things just click inside you and you realize that it is all on you now. My W and I shared all of the responsibilities really well, or so I thought, but again...now things are all on my shoulders at "my" house.
The kids know what dad expects and it is done...for the most part. At 19, 14, and 10 things do sometimes slide, but it doesn't take much to get back on track. My D14 and my W are like best friends now, so I don't know exactly what type of dynamic is there when they are at her place, but my W seems more in line with a teenager now than a 43 yo mother of 3. I miss the woman that is now gone, and I hope one day she returns, but it is painfully obvious that she has disappeared for at the moment.
I don't think you have to or should you ask her who she blames...it will all come out eventually. I'm not an expert by any means, but I simply told my kids that I didn't agree with what is going on, but that I loved them, I loved their mother, and God will get us thru this. They know we both love them, but I'm sure in their growing minds there are questions that only can be answered thru time.
I see some similarities with my situation, let me offer a few words.
1) Yes, he's sleeping with OW, 99 out of a hundred chance. Don't let him gaslight you. Rarely, some men may blow up their marriage over just a "crush", but they usually don't move out until they have someone waiting - and the OW doesn't usually quit her job! Get tested for STDs.
2) Think of your H like a wolf caught in a trap, chewing his leg off to get out. He felt depressed, he tried changing jobs, that didn't make him feel better, he looks around, it must be YOU making him feel bad, right? (Btw, his therapist is a terrible therapist. Unfortunately this is not uncommon.)
3)
That I deserve someone who is inspired to be a good husband and he just isn't. He's right, I'm well aware of what I deserve. I just know that guy is still in there, somewhere.
My ex had an affair when he was 40 (first MLC), we reconciled, had several good (excellent) years, then his MLC returned when he turned 50 and he left. One of the things he said when he left was that he was leaving so that I still had time to find someone else better for me. Made me furious at the time, but you know what? He was right! I DID find someone who treats me like a princess every day, much better than my ex, and dating in my mid fifties was tough enough, I'm glad he didn't wait any longer. I suspect dating in my forties would have been even better. Frankly, I didn't realize how much of my daily energy was going in to making things ok for my ex and walking on eggshells around him, until he was gone. Now in hindsight I realize that it wasn't just his depression (actually probably mild bipolar in his case) but that he also is a narcissist. It's early days for you, but resist the temptation to look at your marriage through rose colored glasses. Evaluate honestly whether he really was that great a partner. Did your friends or family have reservations about him?
4) Don't wait around on him. Live your life AS IF he's not coming back. Make your decisions for YOU. Spread your wings, try new things, meet new people. He's actually more likely to come back if he thinks he might lose you, and you're leading an interesting life that he would like to join. He's much less likely to come back if he thinks you're waiting there patiently pining for him, the ever-available Plan B. (You can always decide whether you want him back or not when/if that time arrives. Just don't put your life on hold, this may go on for a long time.)
5) If he is being generous in the separation agreement, consider converting it to a divorce now. (Unless, in your state, the separation agreement will automatically convert to a divorce with the same financial settlement details?). They are usually MOST generous in the beginning when they are still feeling guilty - after a fairly short time, when the financial realities of two households sets in, they usually become shockingly stingy. Get the best financial deal you can for you and your girls. Think of it as preserving family assets from the MLC, if he does come back later he will thank you for not letting him squander all the money. Divorce is just a piece of paper, you can always get remarried if you reconcile, but you were wise to start the ball rolling to preserve your financial rights.
6) This is not about you (and he is rewriting history, don't believe him when he says he was never in love) BUT - this is a unique opportunity to look at yourself clearly and embark on becoming the very best YOU that you can be. (True story - when my ex finally left, I took up playing the drums at 53, and have played in a pop-punk band for 6 years, AND have my first official recording credit playing vibraphone and glockenspiel on a professional songwriter friend's new album!)
7) Keep your expectations zero, stick to the high road and never bad mouth him to your kids, and remember your girls are looking to you for an example - show them how to rise above. (and yes, the oldest may blame you for not being able to keep daddy at home, don't worry, she'll understand eventually. My middle child was closest to my ex and we had that dynamic as a teen; in her twenties she now totally sees her father for who he is and is endlessly grateful to me for being the rock.)
I don't think you have to or should you ask her who she blames...it will all come out eventually. I'm not an expert by any means, but I simply told my kids that I didn't agree with what is going on, but that I loved them, I loved their mother, and God will get us thru this. They know we both love them, but I'm sure in their growing minds there are questions that only can be answered thru time.
SBJ - yes, you're right. I think lots of things will come out eventually. I've been doing much the same as you - I let them know that where I am upset by what's happened and I don't want it nor agree with it, that I love their Dad very much and I love them too. We will continue to pray for strength and for God to carry us along.
I'm not catholic but I think I'm going to use Lent as a time to focus on a daily meditation to strengthen my faith. It's definitely waning and I'm feeling a little jaded these days. I think I will go see The Shack when it opens this weekend.
kml - Thank you for your thoughtful response to my trainwreck situation. I really appreciate what you have to say.
1)No need to worry about STD's...there would have to be some physical intimacy for that to be happening and H would barely sit next to me on the couch, much less touch me. I don't get why they lie about it though. I expect that he is involved with her, but I don't even know if it matters in the end. I know that his fantasy with her won't last, mostly because I know OW. She will start (pardon my French) whoring up to whatever man she works with at her new company. She moves around every 3 years and that is her MO. She's the weed.
2) Definitely, I'm finding it easier to accept this most of the time.
3) I can definitely see where some things fell short in our marriage, but nothing that I would consider a deal-breaker. I would have liked more flowers. Ha. But seriously, we've been together since the age of 22 and he's always been a stand up guy. My family and more importantly my parents all adored him. Friends and colleagues respected him. When D12 was born, he had the nurse show him how to swaddle and change diapers while I was sleeping. He was up all night with D10 when she was colicky so that I could rest. He has always been a good provider and has lovingly taken care of his family. Up until OW, I can't think of anything he ever did that would blemish his character. Both of our families are rocked by his behavior because it's entirely out of the blue for him. Perhaps it's been brewing for a while.
4) As an introvert, I'm struggling with this but I'm making a real effort to get out there and do my thing. When I'm out with people I usually do enjoy myself, I just don't like doing it too much or my batteries get depleted. I kind of enjoy the "me" time when he has the girls, but I really only need one evening of that and then I want them back.
5)In my state, the SA is designed to flow right into the divorce decree if one of us files. Otherwise we can let it conver into divorce after 1 year. So yes, it will hold up right through the end. I can actually file anytime once the SA is in place, indicating the marriage has been irretrievably broken for 6 months, but as the custody and financials will be locked in, there's no need to rush it. However, his lawyer is still dragging his feet on the agreement, I guess to get some billable hours in. Time will tell if it will be smooth or if I'm in for a fight. I'm a better fighter than a victim anyhow.
6 & 7) THANK YOU. I will continue to do me. Right now I'm focusing my energy on packing our home, staging it to sell quickly and find something that is just right for my girls and I. I feel like once we move and the SA is in place, I can get out of limbo for a little while and start my next chapter.
I don't think I can edit that, but I wanted to add in #1 - in no way am I absolving him of the blame in getting involved with OW. I re-read it and it reads as though I'm shifting to her, but I'm not. He is absolutely to blame for screwing things up so royally.
No need to worry about STD's...there would have to be some physical intimacy for that to be happening and H would barely sit next to me on the couch, much less touch me.
Unless you have NEVER had sex since the day he started working with OW - go get tested. Sometimes people find out these affairs have been going on WAAAAAAYYYYY longer than they suspected.
No problem - covered in Dec after urging of my OB/GYN at my annual. I might want to believe he's not doing what he's doing, but sadly, I'm not a fool either. Sigh... Luckily, all negative.
I received an email from MIL on Friday. She hopes I'm doing well. (???) The girls were there to visit (because H had them during their break and chose to dump them with his parents instead of taking a few days off to spend with them) and she thought they "seemed down". (???) She also hopes that I don't blame her for supporting him, because he is her son after all and she doesn't know what else to do. (???) She wants me to come down to visit and see her sister's new furniture. (???)
I didn't respond because each time I tried, I just couldn't find a way to do so civilly. Is she drinking the same cool-aid as her son? Again I will say - I don't get it.
Also, H screwed up and used his joint debit card to take his honey to the movies this weekend. The girls and I saw his car in the mall parking lot when we went to buy some clothes for our upcoming FL trip (he and I always park in the same area). I checked the bank account later and sure as anything, he went to the movies. Please H, continue to lie to my face while you use our joint checking account to pay for your dates. Un-freakin-believable.
Is she drinking the same cool-aid as her son? Again I will say - I don't get it.
Simple answer...YES! Remember the whole blood is thicker than water thing. He has her believing whatever it is that he tells her.
My MIL is the same way. Right when my W's EA became public knowledge with family, then MIL was on my side saying she didn't agree with my W. Once the W started isolating people that didn't agree with her, the MIL changed her tune and did whatever the W wanted. My SIL still disagrees with her and has been excommunicated. HAHA. My FIL still disagrees, but is non-confrontational with her, so she hasn't shut him out.
Please H, continue to lie to my face while you use our joint checking account to pay for your dates. Un-freakin-believable.
Remember...believe none of what they say and only half of what they do. It is sad, but true.
I guess as time has passed, I look back and would have been much more assertive about some of the 'spending' areas.
Firstly, and if I'm playing devils advocate, I would say - do you know he was taking her to the movies? However, if you are concerned about the joint account being used for social expenses, you could ask him only to use if for X and Y...
In my case, XH spent £1000's visiting OW who was transatlantic (during our separation) and helping (financially) her move away from her 'controlling' boyfriend. But I let that go in our D settlement - largely because I still hoped to save the marriage and I was pretty comfortable anyway. But I look back now and I do see the behaviour as pretty outrageous and I guess I would like to have been a bit more robust on calling it out.
But that's just me talking from where I am now I guess
Sounds as though you are pretty grounded and that's no mean feat in these circumstances....xx
KarenHC, as Jeep74 says, this is just sucktastic...the MIL, the joint spending on dates...here's something to chew on, feel free to ignore, but your post has been bugging me all day, as I don't know what I'm going to say to my own FIL when he finds out. It'll be something along these lines, as he will certainly side with his daughter.
Dear MIL,
Thank you for your email. I hope that you understand that it is difficult for me to find the right words to respond to you. I'm not surprised that the girls seemed down when they visited you, as this has been a very difficult time for them, so thank you for your concern and support of them.
Yes, I understand that you are supporting your son and I hope that you can help him. While I wish it wasn't the case, my current relationship with H complicates my relationship with you. We will always be connected through the children and you are a wonderful grandmother, but I'm not sure a visit to your sisters is the right thing for me right now.
Sincerely,
KarenHC
Wow Gordie, that is a terrific response! Polite and articulate yet the point is crystal clear.
I know H's parents are starting to come to the same conclusion that I am and his father is very upset with him, but yes - blood is definitely thicker than water. Even after 20 years.
Sotto - I don't know that he was definitely with her. I think it's fairly safe to assume but I have no proof and he will deny it until his dying breath for whatever reason.
If possible I would keep a watch on the accounts
Not sure if your split them yet-
-get your name off all accounts with him
They overspend and if we are on the account-we can get blamed and held accountable
I think it takes a while for the MIL to figure it out that their son is cracked
after a short while, my xMIL would call me for advice on dealing with her son an his OW whom she hated
Yes, this acct is the only one we share and it will be dissolved after our house sells. Everything else including credit cards are in our individual names. I work in finance and I have always handled all the money and bills, so that was high on my priority list to protect the kids and I in case he goes further down the tunnel. For the most part, everything is as simplified as it can get, I suppose...
My MIL loves us both and wants to sit on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately I can't have someone in my life who is financially supporting my kids being taken from their home and their mother 50% of their lives, you know? I know the MLC'r doesn't respond to logic, but there is a really selfish part of me that is so angry and disappointed that though every single person in our families and all of our coworkers and friends think he is acting like a fool, no one will call him out on it. Everyone tells me how awful it is what he's doing, but I wonder why no one tells him he's behaving awfully?
I agree totally with the fact that nobody calls them out. My W's younger sister is the only one that called her out and is now shut out. If anyone disagrees with them they are out.
Our MLC'ers are out in lalaland and can't see the forest thru the trees. Reading some of what sandi1 and AmyC wrote helps me understand that I won't understand what she is going thru.
its true
No one wants to get involved
I remember thinking the same thing
My XH had good friends and a support group of guys
I dont think any of them really talked to him about his choices
I asked one mutual guy friend from a bible group we were part of to talk to him and he did
but came back saying H said he was just not happy in the M
MLC is not something someone can be talked into or out of
Its like a crises(mental illness)
Some say it is an accumulation of childhood trauma unresolved
so unless the MLCer seeks help with his childhood issues, they won't recover
Few seek help
Few will come out better than when they went in the tunnel because they spend most of their crises running and instead of resolving and growing they get sicker
You can only go up or down and many MLCer will go down
you will know more as time passes and you see his NEW behavior which way he goes
But the focus is on you and your change and growth
To use this time to Heal you
To figure out what you could do better in your life
A self evaluation and to become a reliable source for our kids
A better parent and the stable parent
our kids needs that to flourish
I dont think any of them really talked to him about his choices
I asked one mutual guy friend from a bible group we were part of to talk to him and he did
but came back saying H said he was just not happy in the M
Plus, because they spin things and rewrite the marriage history, their friends and close family don't get the "real" story. then if they disagree with the MLC'er then they will be shut down and shut out.
you will know more as time passes and you see his NEW behavior which way he goes
I know in my W's case, she is great at masking everything. I read an interesting article this morning that summed up how we keep our front yards manicured nice and neat, but some back yards are amazingly messy. It compared prodigal spouses to that saying that they place so much effort into making sure their lives look good up front, but the spiritual and emotional "back yards", the place where God looks, is lacking.
We need clean up our own back yard and work on improving ourselves so that our prodigal/MLC/wayward spouse might notice...if they do not, then I am certain that we will be better for it down the line.
Logged into LinkedIn for the first time in a while. Remember H's. POW who was his boss and recently quit? LinkedIn suggested her open position to me as a potential I may be interested in. Unlike her, I don't go for sloppy seconds though, lol.
Ah, the awkward crappiness of working in the same industry as your spouse in a small city - especially when after 20 years you have shared colleagues all over town.
That reminds me, I should change my user name. I thought when I registered it would be my login made but I guess I did it backwards.
But think how fun it would be to be H's boss lol
So... H emailed me a bunch of changes to the S agmt that he and his lawyer came up with. Mostly regarding money. He wants to reduce child support since he have them 50/50, reduce the length of time for alimony and put in a clause where alimony ceases if I get remarried or cohabitate with someone else.
We are selling our house. He is currently not paying anything and we agreed to keep the paychecks and bills being paid normally until the house sells and then close the joint account and he would start paying support and maintenance. I put in a clause to start paying the earlier of the house sale or 9/1 because who knows how long it will take the house to sell? He wants to remove that because he won't be able to pay support if we're still paying the mortgage on the house.
Lastly he wants to reduce alimony from the 7 years 7 months in the formula to 6 years 6 months. He mentioned "splitting the difference" in that the range for 20 years is between 5 years 6 months and 7 years 7 months. He left me and is dating someone else but I should somehow be penalized because he didn't keep his promise to me.
I am so angry and sad right now. 20 years of marriage. I was a good partner and a good mother. I took good care of my family and always honored my marriage vows. And it all comes down to money.
He sent me this super cordial, gentlemanly email - as though he's taking some sort of high road that absolves him of what he's doing to our family.
Also FYI - I changed my display name so I expect that will be different in a couple of days.
KarenHC,
This is all lose-lose so share your frustration, sadness, anger. The rules vary state to state, so can't really give advice, but ask your L (and divorced friends in your state). As Jeep74 says, this is just...sucktastic. Vent, vent, vent...
Bird - I am so sorry this is happening. They do become so selfish and greedy during this time. It is hard to fathom. Hang in there. And like Gordie says, vent, vent, vent.
Peacetoday - I think you are so right about MLCers will either go up or go down. At least I really, really want to believe that. I know this sounds kinda mean, but there is a large part of me that wants my H to nosedive if we divorce. I hope his relationship with OW tanks, too.
My therapist told me that what he often sees is that the issues H has will come to the surface quicker in his subsequent relationships if he does nothing to work on them. He will put his defense up father and father out so when an issue comes up that is close to an issue we had, it will become a problem much sooner.
Thanks, Gordie and FightOn.... yeah, he certainly doesn't seem to be backing down from his need to run away. So here's a guy who left us and moved into his own place, makes twice as much as me and is also (allegedly) having an affair with his former boss. But he wants to drill down the amount he's paying me both for child support and alimony. As their mother, I will always do most of the shopping with them - clothes, school supplies, etc. But he thinks it should be lower since we share custody 50/50. They don't even like going to his house, apparently they don't do anything when they are with him and he's always grouchy (he never used to be grouchy - I always had the shorter fuse). I feel like it's just propelling forward down a dark path now.
On the GAL front, I got my first tattoo last night! It's a phoenix. I've been thinking about it for several months now and decided to take the plunge. I wanted a reminder to look at to remember that I will continue to rise up at times (like today) when I feel like I can't do it. It might be a little reactionary, but I like it so it's ok. I always said I wasn't going to get one until I had a design and placement in mind that meant something personal to me. In college I almost got a daisy chain on my hip when it occurred to me that it meant nothing and I walked out. Now it means something and I'm really happy with it.
Follow your attorneys advice and fight for what you are entitled to and nothing less.
As far as a darker path that he might be going down...maybe it has to get worse before it gets better.
This thread would be much better with pics...haha! Congrats on the tattoo and the name change.
Bird??? You should have renamed your self Phoenix!!! You will rise from the ashes...and yes, in my dark moments, I hope terrible things happen to my W's POM and all her fantasies crumble...vent, vent, vent...as a former stuffer, I've learned it's quite healthy to let these things out...
In many states the alimony is half the length of the marriage, so you are already getting less than you would in many states. Don't agree to reduce that unless you get something equally valuable in return. DO remember that alimony can always be revisited.
My ex bargained me down from 12 years alimony to 10 (I did get something in return in the negotiations as I recall). I was willing to accept that reduction because I knew that in 10 years he could retire - his income would drop and he would theoretically be able to go back to court and get the alimony reduced then anyway. Plus if he retired my share of his early retirement would kick in and replace the lost money.
Also - when negotiating between alimony and child support - remember the tax consequences. Alimony is income to you and tax deductible to him. Child support is not income to you I believe and therefore not taxable to you.
He wants to reduce child support since he have them 50/50, reduce the length of time for alimony and put in a clause where alimony ceases if I get remarried or cohabitate with someone else.
Let me share my experience with this cohabitation thing (which is kinda standard in my state my attorney told me, although my friend's divorce did not include it).
At the time, I wasn't concerned about it. Lord knows at that time I sure didn't see me wanting to live with another man for a long time! The legal argument (and my ex's) is that he doesn't want to be paying to support some other man, and if I'm hooked up with some other guy, I should be hIS problem to support.
So I left it in, I had bigger fights to fight. My ex started dating his current wife a year after he dumped me, and she moved in with him within a year. I dated several men after my divorce, then finally found Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome. We started dating 4 years after my divorce and are still together 4 years later. He moved to my town after the first year and lives in an apartment a mile away from my house.
We have to be careful not to exceed the limited number of nights per month sleeping together. (I think it's 8). He's had a temporary business downturn lately and it would be helpful if he could live with me while getting his business back up and running because he could save rent, but that's not possible as if I lose my alimony $ I cannot continue to support my college kid.
It's annoying and if I had to do it again I would either 1) fight harder to have that removed (how is it fair that my ex gets to live with his girlfriend but I can't with mine?) or 2)get a lump sum settlement instead of alimony payments.
There wasn't enough cash available for me to get a lump sum, but if there is in your sitch - take it! Lump sum has advantages:
1) It's not taxable to you, it's just a splitting of your assets.
2) It can't be reversed - if you ex becomes disabled a year later, you still have your lump sum (alimony could be reduced or eliminated if his financial situation changes. And you have to maintain a life insurance policy on your ex in case he dies before he's done paying alimony).
3) Paying monthly checks to you seems to keep the WAH in a state of perpetual resentment. I only found out recently, after all these years, that my ex was laboring under the mistaken belief that he was paying me almost 40% of his income. (He was always bad at math and taxes.) The true figure, including once you calculate the tax break he gets, is about 11% of his after-tax income- not at all unreasonable considering we were married for 24 years, he cheated on me, and I mommy-tracked my career to raise our 3 children and allow him to become a star at his career. Yet because he had this crazy idea that I was "bleeding him dry" with every monthly check he wrote, he found ways to stick me with every extraneous parenting cost once our kids were technically (but not functionally) adults. I'm sure we would be on friendlier terms now if I had just gotten a lump sum in the beginning and he had gotten over it. Consult with a tax specialist if you need help understanding the ramifications of these different options (my attorney was great but NOT great with the math/taxes details, luckily I am).
Also - no need to respond immediately to anything he proposes. You can just say you need to think about it and do your research, then do your research and let your lawyer handle any response.
Oh - and getting a lump sum eliminates that whole "cohabitation" hassle.
So... gave my atty my thoughts on his email a week ago. She hasn't gotten back to me yet.
In the meantime, he's been textier than usual. All business, but I sense a higher level of communication from him. He's even chatted briefly while picking up the kids (again, all business but still it's something). We were in the giant blizzard this week. He got out of work early on Tues and came over to snowblow the driveway for me. Then he came over again yesterday around noon and did it again. He told me last night when he came back to pick up the kids that if I needed him to do it again before I left for work just to text him in the morning. Trying to keep my expectations at zero. This is "old H" behavior, making sure we're taken care of. He came upstairs when he picked them up to grab their bags (he never leaves the foyer normally) and commented on how good the house smelled (I had made butter chicken and jasmine rice for my dinner and it did smell amazing I have to say).
D12 has an orthodontist appt tomorrow am and there is no school here. They are with him on Thursday nights so she will be at his house tomorrow. I texted to remind him that she has an appt. I said I can take her but can you bring her by the house on your way to work so I can take her to work with me before her appt. He said sure, and to text him when we get to ortho because he can come and get her and bring her back home for me.
I don't want to look into it at all. Because this is the roller coaster car getting to the top of the hill before it goes flying to the bottom. Ugh, but I can't help it. I'm hoping there's a glimmer of old H in there fighting.
Lastly, he has the kids for St Paddy's since it's Friday, not for the holiday. They realized they wouldn't be here and went nuts because it's "my" holiday (I take all things Irish very seriously, lol). So he texted earlier in the week and said they told him they wanted to spend it with me. I told him that they had told me the same but that I said it was really up to him. I'd bought corned beef & cabbage to make for friday and I was happy to have them if it was ok with him. He said that sounded good and that he would pick them up after and take them out for dessert.
So this morning because I love to kick myself, I texted and invited him for dinner. I told him the girls and I talked about it (we had) and wondered if he'd like to join us for dinner and that I had already planned to make a cake for dessert. Trying to be the lighthouse. So he texted back after a couple hours and said he had told some people at work he'd join them for a St Paddy's beer after work, but would it be ok if he joined us for dessert at the house afterward. I responded and said that sounds good to me and I'll let the girls know.
I'm trying to walk the fine line of not pursuing but trying to be someone he wouldn't want to run away from. Warm house full of good smells, smiling wife and kids (and the dog)... just something for him to think of on his nights alone. OW can't give him those things...
I'm really hoping that some little cracks of light are starting to shine through. I also know I'm a glutton for punishment because I don't know when to quit. We'll see how things go...
Great update! I'm glad he is acting better and took care of the snow. Enjoy Friday. Good he is joint for dessert. I hate to ask...but is the affair still going on?
Hmmm....I don't know. I don't have any proof of it and he continues to deny there was one. When I confronted him in February about it he said that he may ask her out. I felt like it was a CYA sort of answer. From everything I've read though, it seems unwise to believe that there ISN'T an affair...
Dessert went well. H came over around 7:30 and stayed for about an hour. We had dessert & decaf and chatted about work, stuff wth the kids...all in all a very pleasant time. I'd like to think he misses being here with us, or maybe he's just settling into his new normal. He took the kids for their overnight with him and now I'm here with the dog on my own like most Friday nights.
My goal was to give him a nice time with his family so he'd reflect later on what he's missing, but I'm the one sitting here alone reflecting. I miss them and I miss our family. I miss my best friend. Hoping he's thinking the same.
You did very well. You've got the right idea about giving him a nice time. Those little memories go a long way when he's by himself.
Keep up the good work!
Had a similar experience last night with mine. She is out of town with our D14 and i have our boys. She texted (hardly ever does anymore) to check on them and we had a very friendly exchange. It was nice. That is all I can do for now.
You seem to be doing well. Sorry for the lonely feelings. My boys stayed in their rooms after dinner so I had the dogs, the TV and some Irish Whiskey for the celebratory evening.
Jeremiah 29:11New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
11 For I know well the plans I have in mind for you—oracle of the Lord—plans for your welfare and not for woe, so as to give you a future of hope.
Thank you Job. It's so hard in the moment to know what is right. It's very difficult to do the 180 because whereas I want to show him that I'm doing great and make him wonder why he left, I also don't want him to let himself believe that I'm just fine and therefore he made the right decision. It feels like a no win situation.
SBJ - I would have been with you on the Irish whiskey but H took all the scotch and whiskey when he left. I did have a Guinness with the dog though, lol.
I subscribe to the daily meditations from Our Daily Bread and there was a good one yesterday:
The Lord is close to the broken-hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. Psalm 34:18
It's so hard for me to trust and hand this over to Him. I'm afraid that keeping this family together isn't part of the Plan. Having faith that things will work out means accepting that they won't work out in the way I think they should. I realize this is counter to having faith in and of itself but I can't figure out how to let it go and trust.
Hi Bird
It is a leap of faith
letting go not knowing the outcome
and knowing God's plan isn't necessary our plan at the moment
But looking back on your life now
do you see everything has always worked out
not always exactly what we want
some mistakes some regrets-we learn and move on
and sometimes better
Only thru prayer and faith will we get thru this trial of life. I have begun wondering if this is my trial or hers. Is this happening so that I learn something that I needed to learn, or is this happening so that she learns a life lesson, or is it happening so that when my kids are older they have learned something.
Either way I feel my faith has strengthened. I could have just as easily gotten angry at God, but I accept that there is something I needed to learn from all of this.
Nowhere does it say that things will be fair, but it does say he will supply us with all that we need. If you have faith just the size of a mustard seed then you are on the right track. Keep asking him to make your path known to you and look for the signs that he will place there for you.
I also received that reading...it really brings to light what I feel at times. The very next line says that the troubles of the just are many, but that God delivers the just from them.
Keep the faith a take it one day at a time.
It's so hard for me to trust and hand this over to Him. I'm afraid that keeping this family together isn't part of the Plan. Having faith that things will work out means accepting that they won't work out in the way I think they should. I realize this is counter to having faith in and of itself but I can't figure out how to let it go and trust.
Bird--this is exactly how I feel!
Thank you, peacetoday and SBJ. Those are words that I will refer back to again and again in my struggle to find and keep my faith.
Sometimes, when I can't fall asleep (which is really always) I try to start a story in my head. I've been trying to start a story where H comes over unannounced or texts me for coffee, where he says something along the lines of, "I don't want this. Moving out wasn't the answer I was looking for" and then we talk about things he needs to work through to get to a better place in his head. But everytime I try to run through this story in my head, I always fall asleep before we actually meet to talk. I don't know why. I can run through a thousand stories and still not fall asleep, but in this scenario my brain shuts off before we even speak. Curious.
So, my attorney wrote me back and asked if I went through my concerns with H (my concerns with his concerns, as it were). She seems to think that he and I should discuss this stuff and if we can't come to an agreement then we should meet with both attorneys before taking it to court. So I'm working on a follow up to his email that addresses my concerns (moving away from a strict 50/50, increasing what he thinks he should pay for support) and yet somehow not alienate him into thinking he can't wait to get farther away from me. I want to make sure the kids and I are financially secure but I'm still trying to make coming home an attractive option for him. He has shown no sign of confusion or regret to me about his actions. I haven't slept next to him since November 3rd. Last week was the most open he's been since then, but neither of us mention the M at all. Relationship talks ceased the day he told me he wanted out.
Also Gordie -thanks for your ideas regarding my response to MIL a couple of weeks ago. She's sent two more emails to me so I felt like I needed to respond and your sample email really helped me to put into words where our relationship needs to be for the time being.
I think your email to your H needs to just ask if you guys can find a time talk as you'd like to come to agreement without the added expense and time of lawyers and judges. Negotiation by email doesn't work, IMHO. When you talk live, you can better express the desire to keep the door open while also needing to secure the finances for you and your children. Know where you can flex and where you cannot. It's a negotiation so give and take. Both parties should end equally unhappy, sorry.
And did your email to MIL achieve its goal?
Re: the email. I think so. I didn't want to leave her hanging and assuming that I was cutting her out of my life without a word, but I also wanted it to be clear that this currently a conflict of interest and emotions for me so the distance is necessary while things are in limbo. I haven't heard back from her, but my message was loving but crystal clear. I feel like it was good to send it.
You're right about the email, I totally agree. But I'm probably not going to work on a face to face with him. Mostly because that would be a major strength for him. I need time to prep and digest these things and he is very skilled at thinking on the fly as well as being influencing in negotiation. Both of which would spell certain doom for what I'm trying to achieve. And whether he believes it or not, both parties will end equally unhappy, there is no doubt of that. There is no winner in a D. Still, hope springs eternal and if I play this smart and fair, then maybe there is a possibility of a future someday.
Bird, thought about you on my way into work this morning. The song "Still" by Hillary Scott came on and I think it is fitting with the struggles of faith you had mentioned. Listen to it and know that he is working even if you cannot see it yet.
Now realize that I am still struggling with emotions that get stirred up by my W at times, but I have to keep faith that he is working behind the scenes...on both of us.
Philippians 4:6New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
6 Have no anxiety at all, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God.
I hope you have a blessed day.
Hi Bird
Sometimes during the negotiations of D, the MLCer will become angrier
when they realize we have to take care of ourselves, our finances and the kids
So keeping the door open while deciding what your entitled to and getting it -may
create some distance
Try to focus on what is best for you and your kids.
I like the story you play about your H wanting to come home
Law of attraction
I am also practicing the Law..not around my xh but around other things I would like to manifest
Hang in there
Are you better on the phone? Would that work? I just don't like negotiation by email but that may just be me.
H sent a long email back, using the word "adjustment" excessively. This is just an adjustment for the kids, an adjustment for us, adjustment adjustment adjustment.
I put a clause in SA that support/maint start when house sells or 9/1, whichever comes first. He doesn't like the 9/1 clause. I feel like it could drag out forever if I don't put the clause in. He's got a pretty sweet setup right now financially since his parents are paying his rent, so I don't feel like he's motivated to move things along. He's been gone 3 months and hasn't done a thing to help me get a 3000 sqft house ready for listing. We've lived there 10 years so there is a lot of cleaning out, cleaning up, and some basic maintenance like painting to be done here and there. So that seems to be a point that I have to think about.
He wants to reduce the length of time for alimony by 18 months. He also wants to cut the figure my atty provided for support by almost $1000/m. I told him I could work with him on the length of time for alimony if he could work on the dollar amount for support. I also requested an additional day with the girls each week. He is balking at that. I don't like them feeling like neither place is home for them, being shuffled around 50% of the time. They're unhappy and living out of a suitcase which I hate for them. He is really martyring himself over this, pulling out phrases like "I know you're angry with me but...".
I kept emotion out of my email and really just put the points in there that I thought were important. I need the $ to live on. I make less than half of what he makes. Once support and maintenance end I will have like $150/month after my bills are paid. Granted I've got some years as my youngest is 10, but that's scary. This isn't greed talking, and I'm well aware that my standard of living (which isn't all that high to begin with) will be drastically reduced regardless. I feel certain that he is insinuating that I'm trying to increase my time with the girls by a day and increase the support payments to somehow get back at him because I am angry.
This is not the case, although I am sure as s**t angry with him alright. I really just want my kids to feel settled and like there is a place they can refer to as "home". I want to be able to take care of things financially without using credit cards. I want to be able to get new tires for my car.
I haven't responded to him yet although I'm pondering what he said and trying to figure out how to be fair and still get what I need. Unlike most MLC'rs, my H doesn't spew. He prefers martyring and turning his belly up. I guess he thinks if he subjugates himself then he can make me out to be the bad guy if things don't go his way. Then he can say he went out of his way and I made things difficult.
I came across an email exchange between us this past April, 11 months ago. Joking back and forth, planning a night out at the comedy club. Hard to believe this is the same person that would rather shack up with a 30 year old than work to keep his family intact. He's right, I do have a lot of anger. But I am working very hard to keep that out of the SA negotiations.
In my state, once the SA is signed, it can sit out there forever like that. Or if grounds have been met, either of the parties can file for D and it's done. So we're doing the heavy lifting now as it can just convert into D whenever the trigger is pulled. So I guess I'm in the thick of the thing that everyone is dreading right now. On the bright side, I'll have less to fear once this part is over I guess.
Bird,
Trying to negotiate w/a MLCer is like trying to negotiate w/a moving target. Why? Because what he wants will change from one time to the next and it doesn't matter if he agrees to whatever you are proposing today or not because unless it is locked down in a signed, sealed legal document, it's not going to stick. Also, even once it is legal document, he's still going to try to get away w/o paying you what the court deems appropriate. So, my advice, stick to what your state says is proper in the way of alimony and whatever else they state.
As for the house and him helping you...don't expect it because he's not going to do it. They expect us to clean up everything and hand them whatever they want on a silver platter.
Let me just say this, my xh screamed bloody murder wanting a separation or a divorce whichever came first and once I got the ball rolling and had his "stipulations" put in the draft legal separation papers...well, he dragged his feet on those papers from January 2000 to April 2002. He continued to drag his feet until I stopped all work and contact between the lawyers in November 2001. Once I did that, I know he got his butt in gear and started the paperwork for a divorce and we were divorced in June 2002. So, yes, they will drag things out and you are the one waiting in limbo, wondering should you sell, should you file, etc. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and your assets.
Your h may begin to spew when he discovers you aren't going to roll over, listen to what he has to say in the way of splitting the assets, etc. As long as you don't rock the boat, he may not spew. But if he does, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and leave him to his spewing.
Again, I recommend that you not worry about him and only focus on what you need in the way of splitting the assets and a fair manner. If your state says you get XXX number of dollars, then go w/what your state advises. Trust me, if the shoe were on the other foot, he would go w/what the state advises and not negotiate w/you. Right now, he's only concerned w/himself. You have to leave your emotions/feelings at the door and look at this as a business deal gone sour.
Bottom line...take care of yourself.
Thanks for the advice, Job. It's good to have it in black and white when I start feeling bad and begin to waffle. After all, it's not my feelings toward him that have changed.
The thing in my state about support and maintenance is so gray. Based on the # of years married, maintenance can be paid for length of time of 30%-40% of the marriage. In my case, that's 5.3 - 7.7 years. I of course wrote it for the max of 7.7 years. He wants to split the difference at 6.5 years. He used "our situation" when it really means "the length of our marriage". Ugh.
The support... we technically have joint custody 50/50. My attorney wrote up the agreement with the formula showing his support as though I had primary custody. We decided not to deviate any farther down than necessary. So what he wants to pay is still within state guidelines for 50/50 custody. My argument is that he isn't paying for anything for them and has never taken them back to school shopping etc. I can't rely on him to buy someone a laptop if they need it... I know I will be footing the bill for most things for the girls. So he may thing we have equal distribution of expenses for them, but we don't really.
So I will get what I'm entitled to buy law, but since it's such a gray area it is still workable within a range. Maybe the answer is we just try to meet in the middle to avoid taking it to court.
Bird, thanks for stopping by my thread. A few things:
1. Tito's Vodka is a good choice
2. I don't understand their crazy any more than you
3. I spoke to a long time friend yesterday and his advice to me was that I should simply..."Love her from a distance for now". He had a somewhat similar experience, but she remarried, then he remarried. Unfortunately he said that once they had both remarried, she came to him to apologize and had second thoughts.
I know we cannot wait forever, but the question I have seen alot on here today is...how long do you wait, and when do you know it is time to move on?
4. Read Psalm 143 tonight before bed...might work better than the zzzquil. It helps me.
Bird
D is not easy and Job is right
Take care of yourself..He will not like any of the negotiations
this is the time to think about your future, what you will need for yourself and kids
SBJ
you will know when its time to move on
For me it was when my xh M ow
that was it for me-
Sometimes during the negotiations of D, the MLCer will become angrier
when they realize we have to take care of ourselves, our finances and the kids
I think this is where things are headed. I texted him last night and said that it seemed like we really need to spend a couple of hours in person talking about some of these issues. I also told him that though he insinuated I was being difficult out of anger at him or using time with the kids as leverage to gain more financial support, neither are true. He'll believe what his MLC brain wants to believe, but I just couldn't let that stand without speaking up. I'm not a gold digger and I don't use my kids as pawns.
I'm going away on Sunday, taking my girls to Florida for a week to see my parents and sister/BIL. The three of us really need a break. So I told him we could get together on 4/8 which is the first Saturday after we get back. He texted and sais "there's no need to wait, we can meet this Saturday." I'm planning on spending Saturday working on getting the house ready to list. So I told him no, I have plans, we will have to wait until I get back from FL. Then he texts back and says "I'm available on Sunday morning then." Again I texted back and said no, I'm getting ready to go away with the kids for a week. I don't have time to do this until I get back.
I don't get why all of a sudden he's trying to push this through after he sat on the agreement for a full month. I feel like he's trying to control the situation and I'm just not having it. If he wanted an agreement in place so badly he probably should have started the process before up and moving into his own place. Oh well.
SBJ - I do love me a Tito's! I'm a big fan of grey goose as well. And thank you for the song suggestion and the verse... I found both very helpful last night. I listened to the song a few times before bed. Really trying to let go and concentrate on the other things while God figures out my marriage.
Bird,
Just wanted to say your last post sounded more confident and peaceful.
I know the whys are killers. Why are they doing this or that? Stop asking. You don't know and H probably doesn't know either and trying to figure out why only uses up your precious time and emotional energy.
You are doing great.
Im not sure why he needs to "get" it done
Maybe he thinks the pain he is feeling will be relieved once its finalized
It won't- and there will be way more pain up the road for the MLCer
Love the way you handled it
also great that you will have a week with your family to sort through it
so You will get what you need to get for yourself in the agreement
always better to NOT rush
Ugh, I said I would try to keep this as short as possible but failed miserably! I just wanted to include as much about the picture as I could. I'm sure there are still more things I could add. Feel free to ask and feel free to hit me with any hard truths you see. I think it's a MLC, but maybe I'm just hoping that it is because then there would be a chance he would wake up and come back to us. This is a person who shares all of my interests and hobbies, a person I share intellectual conversations with. We can communicate our thoughts without even speaking. I never ever thought we would be apart. I still wake up thinking it's a bad dream because it's so unbelievable. Our families are beside themselves because it happened so out of the blue
Karen, I'm so sorry you are here, but this is a great place to be, for this situation.
I'll post more later and in detail.
For now, I would not get bogged down in the term "MLC" at all. It's useless and here is why-
1) your course of action is the same, no matter what it is.
2) in my opinion, the idea that MLCers' come back more often--I'm not sure that's even true.
I think what people mean when they use the term is that their spouses are SUDDENLY RADICALLY different and therefore, they'll snap out of it,
and it's usually triggered by an event.
But what is really the alternative label when a spouse wants out? Any Walk Away Spouse who truly surprises their LBS could easily be seen as an MLCer.
But what's the difference?
Maybe the fear is that they simply want out and then leave us,
A) we deserve it, and B) they won't return.
Whereas if it's all an MLC
then we can shift blame to them AND retain hope.
You seem to be owning your issues and that's a HUGE, HEALTHY step.
If that^^ is true, then your remaining options are about making yourself grow from this and eventually, to be at peace.
Detachment is key to your happy wellness, and GAL is key to Detachment. Plus GAL plugs some of the holes in our lives created by missing the spouse. When you fill whatever spare time you have with new people and GAL, it simply helps.
It can be super hard, but it isn't really complicated.
As to your h and OW... IF they end up together and go so far as to remarry, under these circumstances, 2nd m's that start with affairs, tend to fail. This is not something for you to say. The more people challenge their relationship the more he'll feel forced to defend it. Yes it tends to push them together. And challenging his choices also tends to make him defend those choices more.
You can say something like "I don't recall our m that way, but I'm sorry you were hurt (unless you know you did do something hurtful, in which case a short apology can't hurt).
Another line is "H, if I had it all to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently" and then drop it.
That^^ shows your ability to change, but it doesn't make you a doormat. And when you hear extensive marital revisions, it's fine to say you don't recall it the same way.
Nothing he does now, negates the love and good memories you have. Though at the moment you might find that happy memories that used to give you joy, now feel painful. I get that. But it gets better.
BTW, I've had 2 family members remarry their former spouses and yes, the 2nd time around was better. I've heard it happens from 6% -15% of former marriages, depending on the source.
IN my cousin's cases a lot of counseling happened for their reconciliation.
So, Instead of labeling his behavior, learn to focus solely on what you can control.
Protect yourself and your d's financially.
Life will teach your h the consequences of his choices. Life will teach him the hard lessons. You don't have to worry about this, at all. IT's a waste of your time and energy. Don't take on the burden of HIS problems.
Spend all of that energy on you, and being present for your daughters. They need you more now, than ever.
They are watching you to see what women of strength and dignity do, when faced with heartbreak...
Indeed, let this painful ordeal at least give you your "money's worth".
Pain is the touchstone for spiritual growth. Or bitterness.
I can already tell you're making the healthier, happier choice.
Hang in there.
I have a feeling Your story is over.
W-
D12 has always been very attached to H. She is his "mini me" whereas D10 is my "mini me" both in looks and personality. I've struggled with my relationship with D12 because our personalities are like oil and water and because I shouldered a lot of the burden of her difficulties and am the disciplinarian. She gravitates to him because he isn't the one nagging her about homework, bedtime, etc. Has she taken sides with him? Maybe. I thought about asking her if she blames me, but she may be too young yet to even process what that means.
I hope you never ask her that. If she lashes out at you, which she probably will, it's b/c she does not want to be the reason he left. She wants to think it's YOU, b/c she is terrified it's her.
I'm trying to keep the structure at home the same as before he left - still on her case to pick up after herself and do her homework. I think she might think she should get a pass, as she certainly does with him as he no longer feels the need to parent in that respect. So yeah, maybe.
I'd let him parent DURING the week and when stressful things are due, as much as possible. Let YOU be more of the "fun" parent.
Thank you Job. It's so hard in the moment to know what is right. It's very difficult to do the 180 because whereas I want to show him that I'm doing great and make him wonder why he left, I also don't want him to let himself believe that I'm just fine and therefore he made the right decision. It feels like a no win situation.
only on the surface. The ultimate eventual thought that "if SHE was the problem, and I wasn't, why is SHE fine now?" is far more likely that you "proving" how great he was by being miserable without him.
And I hate saying this, needy, sad LBSers are not great at attracting back their WA spouses...
PLUS, you being happy is better for YOU. If he never returns, how will you showing your pain and loss, have benefited you?
If he does return, how does you showing your pain and loss, benefit YOU?
NOTE - It will not attract him back and it won't really feel welcoming to him, b/c it's like you are throwing your pain (= his fault/guilt) in his face.
Oh, and your girls are watching. They (and your h) know you are hurt. And angry.
The key here is your recovery and healing and being the best you, that you can become. Without regard to what HE does/plans/feels/says...
It's also paradoxically the most likely way to reattract him.
It's so hard for me to trust and hand this over to Him. I'm afraid that keeping this family together isn't part of the Plan.
That is scary. In my belief system, however, HE gives us the tools and strength we need to face whatever comes...can you ask for that?
Having faith that things will work out means accepting that they won't work out in the way I think they should.
accepting that they MIGHT not work out the way you think...
I realize this is counter to having faith in and of itself but I can't figure out how to let it go and trust.
Like actual forgiveness, I found that actually applying the faith I claimed to have had all my life, took practice.
I listened to Marianne Williamson a lot. She's too new agey for some. But I like her forgiveness exercises.
I would think about turning my marriage and pain and anger, over to God.
Then I'd say it, and that meant I had heard it. Thinking/saying/hearing myself say this out loud, many many times in a row, helped to calm me. And in time I think to an extent, I really did turn it over.
I did this every single day.
This did remarkable (miraculous?) things for my detachment.
Of course, I usually did it in the shower or when I was alone, so no one would think I was totally nuts.