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She moved out...now the work begins...II So I had my youngest all day today due to him not feeling well. The W just picked him up for the rest of the week and I noticed that she isn't wearing her wedding ring. I guess it should come as no surprise since she wants the D, but dang it was kind of a blow. She has been out of the house for 4 weeks, but this was the first I noticed the no ring thing. I heard someone say that the M was over at BD, but not for me. I think I will wear my ring until I'm legally not married anymore. It just hurts. I had bought her a new diamond and setting years ago, because the first set wasn't as nice as we wanted her to have.
What's just as weird is that she won't make eye contact with me now. Not sure if it's guilt or something else, but it is odd.
I'm sorry to hear, SBJ. I saw/felt that too this past summer, the ring off. hang in there.
In her shoes I would not wear it either. To her it is over and the ring is part of that.
My W rarely (almost never these days) wears hers. It is tough for the lbs, so I understand your sentiments. It is just a confirmation of what you already know about how she feels.
As for you wearing yours, that is a personal choice. I am not sure but I imagine if I ever do LRT, removing mine will be part of that. Until then or until I am truly done, I will continue to wear mine.
Best wishes.
Please use this new thread to post more about the good (better) parts of your life. Your goals. Your actions. Your plans. ....
So I had my youngest all day today due to him not feeling well. The W just picked him up for the rest of the week and I noticed that she isn't wearing her wedding ring. I guess it should come as no surprise since she wants the D, but dang it was kind of a blow. She has been out of the house for 4 weeks, but this was the first I noticed the no ring thing. I heard someone say that the M was over at BD, but not for me. I think I will wear my ring until I'm legally not married anymore. It just hurts. I had bought her a new diamond and setting years ago, because the first set wasn't as nice as we wanted her to have.
What's just as weird is that she won't make eye contact with me now. Not sure if it's guilt or something else, but it is odd.
Well of course she won't look you in the eye, she is consumed with guilt on one side and high on endorphins becouse of her new found "freedom". In her mind she is "finally" free and "now is the time for her to be happy". In her mind she's taken care of the happiness of you and the kids for soooo long and now the time has come for her to be happy.
My W after BD started dating OM (even though he was married), and when OM started sleeping with W's boss at the same time, my W had a sort of a nervous breakdown. She joined some dating sites and went on looking for happiness. WEll 2 years later she still has not found happiness and looks worse than ever.
These is some crazy $hit going on in MLC mind, and if a LBS is exposed to this craziness, it can drive a man insane. So a MLC'er is best left to him/her self to work out their $hit. No one can help them, least of all LBS. They can benefit from IC, but they have to want help.
SBJ
W lost her Engagement Stone whilst at the place she met OM (EA) with her wayward friends. I bought a new one and had it reset - reassured her etc. We were in a bad place then. She left, took kids, took the ring off. I had the same view as you. I no longer wear mine. Still married still separated. I sometimes reach to fiddle with my wedding ring. I am not sad, I am happy and not having a ring helped me detach.
My advice. Do what you want to, what feels right. It's not a big deal really. It's just a piece of metal. Your M is just a piece of paper. Your R - now that's something to work on for you, your W and your kids. I know I am trivialising the M, ring etc (I obviously know they are immensely important) - don't misread what I am saying. Think of it this way, if you had to let 2 things out of the 3 (M, ring, R) which would you let go to let the other survive. With me I would want the R to survive so I could hope to make things work for us all - in whatever form that is.
Keep your chin up. It will all work out. I am happy, a great dad and a great person. I didn't see it for a while. Work on you, GAL and be happy dude - it's all there for the enjoying now!!
Surfer.
In her shoes I would not wear it either. To her it is over and the ring is part of that.
My W rarely (almost never these days) wears hers. It is tough for the lbs, so I understand your sentiments. It is just a confirmation of what you already know about how she feels.
As for you wearing yours, that is a personal choice. I am not sure but I imagine if I ever do LRT, removing mine will be part of that. Until then or until I am truly done, I will continue to wear mine.
Best wishes.
Please use this new thread to post more about the good (better) parts of your life. Your goals. Your actions. Your plans. ....
Maybe removing mine would be a sign of me moving on and dropping the rope. I just took the symbol seriously..."I give you this ring as a symbol of my vow, and with all that I am and all that I have, I honor you...but now that I look at it, I should take mine off. She gave it to me as a sign of her love and commitment.
As for me...the rest of my life is great. I have 3 wonderful kids. A great career. An awesome family and extremely supportive friends. I hope to start a new business with my brothers in the new year. I am learning to play guitar, but have gravitated to some blues music...sometimes that is good and others not so much.
Well of course she won't look you in the eye, she is consumed with guilt on one side and high on endorphins becouse of her new found "freedom". In her mind she is "finally" free and "now is the time for her to be happy". In her mind she's taken care of the happiness of you and the kids for soooo long and now the time has come for her to be happy.
My W after BD started dating OM (even though he was married), and when OM started sleeping with W's boss at the same time, my W had a sort of a nervous breakdown. She joined some dating sites and went on looking for happiness. WEll 2 years later she still has not found happiness and looks worse than ever.
These is some crazy $hit going on in MLC mind, and if a LBS is exposed to this craziness, it can drive a man insane. So a MLC'er is best left to him/her self to work out their $hit. No one can help them, least of all LBS. They can benefit from IC, but they have to want help.
SBJ
My advice. Do what you want to, what feels right. It's not a big deal really. It's just a piece of metal. Your M is just a piece of paper. Your R - now that's something to work on for you, your W and your kids. I know I am trivialising the M, ring etc (I obviously know they are immensely important) - don't misread what I am saying. Think of it this way, if you had to let 2 things out of the 3 (M, ring, R) which would you let go to let the other survive. With me I would want the R to survive so I could hope to make things work for us all - in whatever form that is.
Keep your chin up. It will all work out. I am happy, a great dad and a great person. I didn't see it for a while. Work on you, GAL and be happy dude - it's all there for the enjoying now!!
Surfer.
I know that my focus is now directed towards my kids and making a better life for us, but I still pray daily that she will miss our family. I know that all things will work out in God's time.
Thanks for the positive vibes!!!
I also got the No.2 speech.
It is called script. My W also told various people various stories and people were shocked when I told them the truth. But sadly the situation is such that there will be people that will take W's side no matter what and if you try to explain, you will just come off pathetic and petty. I have come to realize the best course of action is just to let it go. There is no point in arguing with people.
I also think that most sane and sensible people - familiar with the ebbs and flows of marriage - will take issue with the 'in search of romance and passion' statement. Particularly where there are kids involved...
So, she may say what she will say...and people will form their own views of that - but that's all up to her and up to them. It needn't impact on you, unless you choose to let it.
Vapo...at this point I'm not arguing. It just keeps coming back to me thru people that we both know. In this case our friend explained the truth to the person that my wife had told. She was shocked, since my wife had cried and everything she had said.
I want to learn how to drop the rope and let it go. At this point she is D'ing me and I have to accept that and move on with making myself better in every way. If she sees it one day then that is great...if not...I guess I need to give myself a time frame to figure that out. I will put my life in order of God/myself/kids/work/family & friends. Making myself stronger physically, spiritually, and emotionally need to take the lead.
I hear you buddy... When these rumors (W's version of stuff)started flying you I thought I would explode and shout from the rooftop what really happened. It just irked me how she could twist the truth and the facts...
Rope dropping takes time. And it is not a straightforward process. Do not be hard on yourself. You are doing well and When I remember myself at your timeline I was a bowl of hot mess.
Keep up the good work.
You mentioned taking off the ring may help you "move on and drop the rope"....I like to look at it more as moving "forward". Mentally to me, it makes a difference. Moving on is to me, giving up. Moving forward is about you carrying on with your life regardless of the R
Vapo, you are right that I am a hot mess right now. All I wish is that I could get a redo on 2016. I'm sure that I would have done many things different...especially since I have learned alot from you guys. That being said, I know I cannot go back and can only go forward. I am missing my best friend and lover. I am missing our family time at home.
I have a good support group of friends and family that are in my corner. It's just that I was extremely close with her entire family and I have tried to distance myself from some of them. They kind of make me feel bad about the situation...almost patronizing.
You mentioned taking off the ring may help you "move on and drop the rope"....I like to look at it more as moving "forward". Mentally to me, it makes a difference. Moving on is to me, giving up. Moving forward is about you carrying on with your life regardless of the R
No J20, trust me when I say that I don't look forward to moving on or forward w/o her. I just don't know what to do. She has obviously convinced herself that life is or will be better w/o me...even though I think she is just confused. Her mother did the same thing to her dad, and her grandmother did the same thing to her maternal grandfather. It is scary. Her mother swears that she didn't have anyone waiting or wasn't having an A, but who knows what is real anymore.
I guess I will just play it by ear. She has been my world for 25 years, so it will take a while to make the decision.For me anyway.
SBJ - I agonized over this myself. I promised my W that I wouldn't be the first to take my ring off. It was (I think) a very symbolic act for both of us. It certainly was for me.
I waited about 2 weeks after I encountered my W without her ring on before removing my own. I have no idea when she took her's off. I wanted to make sure that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to take mine off. I took mine off as a recognition that the chances of us getting back together were slim and that she has now become MY "Plan B". I feel both exposed and free.
So - what I'm saying is that you need to make the choice you make for yourself and your own reasons. One thing that I never bought into was that because she broke her vow that it freed me from mine. My vow was my own vow even if she had given me the ring that was a symbol of it.
Good luck in whatever your choice is.
SBJ
How to do this is simple. Step back. Look at her from a distance. It's like standing near a fire. Get close you feel heat. Stand back feel the warmth, see the fire. Don't get burned.
She is dominant right now. Do your GAL with kids and for you especially. Stay at distance, emotionally. Google "Windsor Davies oh dear how sad never mind". 6 seconds of video. Legendary comedy but try to adopt this in your mind whilst being there to validate and always be kind. Tricky but it works.
Be a man. Give less of a sh!t about the drama. Guys don't in fairness.
Become the dominant man again - over you and your actions/feelings. I don't mean domineering over her. Just be a man. If that makes sense. As Sandi says, take your ball$ back. She doesn't know what to do with them in any event!
All the best.
Surfer.
SBJ
I have not posted in a bit but I have kept up with you and a few others here and another board.
Just wanted to chime in. You are still spinning and off balance (Totally understandable and quite normal), like a boxer you have had your bell rung and only thing holding you up is the ropes ... while you are trying to get your bearings just keep this in mind. MLCrs do things we never thought they were capable of, the selfishness takes front and center stage and they will make poor decision after poor decision all in pursuit of their elusive "happiness". You have to keep this in perspective, the actions she will do are for her (Hurt people hurt people) ... she has this pain she is trying to rid herself of and at the moment she believes this is you and the M, so first step .. Bomb Drop, second.... move out, rings off, cold/monster, D talk .. all of it is script. It takes TIME, tons of it till she will (hopefully) come to grips that her pain has nothing to do with you and its something else, sad thing is they have to figure this out on their own and from what I have learned they married a fixer who wants to fix something he just can not fix ... she must figure this all out on her own and it takes TIME.
My advice ... you have to continue doing the work on yourself because when and if she returns and wants to work on the M you have to learn the tools and become strong enough to endure the challenges reconciliation after MLC requires.
Part of that is what Surfer is trying to get you to do/see. I would be willing to challenge you that over your 25 years you lost some personal identity, things that first attracted her to you. We all did .... just what happens when you become a couple and stay that way for that long, you feel like you lost your left side and in many ways you have. So now you have to grow a new left arm and a new left leg to become a complete attractive person again. Like MLC this too takes time. Allow yourself time to heal and grow as you do it.
There are several books that have been recommended here that helped me begin my journey some 3 years ago ... once you start the path you realize the work will never be finished as you begin to strive to become better everyday, like any long journey it begins with the first step ...one you have already taken the trick is to keep going, she has her own path and she must take it alone (Do not try to wait for her nor speed up trying to get to 'point A')... in my experience the paths cross a few times and it will be up to you both if you chose to walk the same one later on in the hike.
SBJ - I agonized over this myself. I promised my W that I wouldn't be the first to take my ring off. It was (I think) a very symbolic act for both of us. It certainly was for me.
I waited about 2 weeks after I encountered my W without her ring on before removing my own. I have no idea when she took her's off. I wanted to make sure that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to take mine off. I took mine off as a recognition that the chances of us getting back together were slim and that she has now become MY "Plan B". I feel both exposed and free.
So - what I'm saying is that you need to make the choice you make for yourself and your own reasons. One thing that I never bought into was that because she broke her vow that it freed me from mine. My vow was my own vow even if she had given me the ring that was a symbol of it.
Good luck in whatever your choice is.
How to do this is simple. Step back. Look at her from a distance. It's like standing near a fire. Get close you feel heat. Stand back feel the warmth, see the fire. Don't get burned.
She is dominant right now. Do your GAL with kids and for you especially. Stay at distance, emotionally. Google "Windsor Davies oh dear how sad never mind". 6 seconds of video. Legendary comedy but try to adopt this in your mind whilst being there to validate and always be kind. Tricky but it works.
Be a man. Give less of a sh!t about the drama. Guys don't in fairness.
Become the dominant man again - over you and your actions/feelings. I don't mean domineering over her. Just be a man. If that makes sense. As Sandi says, take your ball$ back. She doesn't know what to do with them in any event!
All the best.
Surfer.
I did like the video...funny way of thinking about things.
The hard part of being dominant again is that I was a 20 year old kid when she and I began our relationship...I don't even know who I was back then anymore. I hope that I can find myself in all of this. I want to grow and learn from all of this, but I guess I am fearful of having to go it on my own.SBJ
I have not posted in a bit but I have kept up with you and a few others here and another board.
Just wanted to chime in. You are still spinning and off balance (Totally understandable and quite normal), like a boxer you have had your bell rung and only thing holding you up is the ropes ... while you are trying to get your bearings just keep this in mind. MLCrs do things we never thought they were capable of, the selfishness takes front and center stage and they will make poor decision after poor decision all in pursuit of their elusive "happiness". You have to keep this in perspective, the actions she will do are for her (Hurt people hurt people) ... she has this pain she is trying to rid herself of and at the moment she believes this is you and the M, so first step .. Bomb Drop, second.... move out, rings off, cold/monster, D talk .. all of it is script. It takes TIME, tons of it till she will (hopefully) come to grips that her pain has nothing to do with you and its something else, sad thing is they have to figure this out on their own and from what I have learned they married a fixer who wants to fix something he just can not fix ... she must figure this all out on her own and it takes TIME.
My advice ... you have to continue doing the work on yourself because when and if she returns and wants to work on the M you have to learn the tools and become strong enough to endure the challenges reconciliation after MLC requires.
Part of that is what Surfer is trying to get you to do/see. I would be willing to challenge you that over your 25 years you lost some personal identity, things that first attracted her to you. We all did .... just what happens when you become a couple and stay that way for that long, you feel like you lost your left side and in many ways you have. So now you have to grow a new left arm and a new left leg to become a complete attractive person again. Like MLC this too takes time. Allow yourself time to heal and grow as you do it.
There are several books that have been recommended here that helped me begin my journey some 3 years ago ... once you start the path you realize the work will never be finished as you begin to strive to become better everyday, like any long journey it begins with the first step ...one you have already taken the trick is to keep going, she has her own path and she must take it alone (Do not try to wait for her nor speed up trying to get to 'point A')... in my experience the paths cross a few times and it will be up to you both if you chose to walk the same one later on in the hike.
As you say, this is all a MLC script, but it seems to be moving at light speed. She has this "Happy Mask" on all the time...like none of this is bothering her at all. I just wish she would show some kind of emotion about what is happening. She is denying that she has ever had feelings toward me. It stings.
And like I said earlier...I don't even remember who I was 25 years ago. I was young, dumb, and full of myself. Now I'm a middle-aged father of 3, who is fighting to save my marriage. My identity is wrapped up in...that is ______'s dad, or that is ______'s husband. Everything I do is for my family. It will be work to change my thinking about myself, but I am willing to do the work.
She came by last night with the youngest to get something he left and I complimented her on looking very nice...almost no response. Weird. She has always been the most beautiful woman in the world to me, but she is starting to lose something. I can't place it, but I don't want to lose my feelings toward her. It is just odd how our view of them changes as well.
What were the books again???
Why are you still complimenting her? Seems as if you feel the need to say something to her often. Gotta stop that. Journal it if you need to tell someone but don't tell her. It's perusing and can be overwhelming and smothering.
You made the comment about how you feel like she's dead....not to be too morbid but, I have a friend/client who lost her 2nd husband whom she was madly in love with. She said the divorce was more painful as she knew her Xh was still around, living life, making memories with other people, etc while the death of her h was finality.
You also mentioned it's hard to step back because you said you would never leave your family. You stepping back is really the only chance you have at saving or maintaining your family. And without you detaching, you are squandering that opportunity.
j20, you are totally right...I need to stop commenting, but I see her 5 days per week. I told my kids that I would take them to school everyday that I could. This wasn't for her, but it was for me and them. I have taken them to school since my oldest started school 15 years ago. It is my time with them.
That being said, when I pick them up at her condo, I only step right inside the door and no further. I will stop with the compliments for sure.
As for the death/divorce comment...I only know what it feels like to me, but as for my marriage it is dead compared to what it once was.
I will work on stepping back. I have gone NC unless it is something she requests for the kids. That has been difficult in itself since we used to talk multiple times per day. It almost feels like she is using some of the same techniques...she has totally cut me out of her life. It totally stinks, but I guess she is trying her best to pull away and remove me from her life to find her "Utopia". Kind of funny, but I always sang the song from Alabama to her..."Close Enough to Perfect". It's hard to think about why they (our MLC'er) didn't see things as good as we see them. It's even harder to wonder if there will ever be a chance that they realize that what they are throwing away was what they needed all along. I guess that thought needs to be filed away for a long while.
The neighbor approach works best IMO. Treat her as if she was your neighbor. Polite, but at a distance I mean, you don't go telling your neighbors that they are beautiful, do you? I mean, I see what you are doing, you are looking for that silver bullet, that one thing, that one magic word or deed that will turn it all around. Well, news flash, there are no silver bullets, and the sooner you come to terms with it, the easier it will be for you.
You are mind reading regarding her feelings. Stop it. You do not know what she thinks and feels. And what ever that is, although it may not be the truth in your eyes it is very real for her. You do not have to agree with her, but you do have to respect her choices. Sometimes the best thing is (actually always) to let her have what she thinks she wants, that might set her straight sooner. The more you interfere in her decisions, the more pissed off she will be at you. So, stop interfering...
REmember, there is no silver bullets...
The "Happy Mask" is a must, no way at this time can she remotely come to terms with reality ... she is just not capable currently with everything going on so she must sell how happy she is to everyone ... especially you... internally justifying her choice was in fact the correct one by externally projecting that feeling. It helps when they are high on this rush/fantasy that the new life they have been slowly fantasizing for years is finally starting to take shape, understand MLC did not just happen at BD, it was slow cooking for some time prior to that, you just did not see it coming.
During some moments of clarity my MLCr told me she would 'fake it till she made it' and try to pretend to be happy though deep down she was miserable and guilt ridden .... other accounts of this have been shared as well ... take the "Happy Mask" as just that ... a mask.
Ok ... First book/homework. This one was the first in a long line that I read and was definately a nudge for me to get where I wanted to go. No More Mr Nice Guy, like you I was a fixer, I also wrapped up half if not more so in Mr MLCr Father MLCr etc .... which wounded up losing who Cali really was. Project Cali 2.0 was put into motion and has been since that time, well worth the investment I assure you, if you invest in yourself it will pay off hand over foot.
SBJ
Yes. The neighbour approach.
Of course you will remember who you are FFS!! Stop obsessing over her and get out and live again. You might not want to but you need to to recharge.
This won't make any sense until you do it. Trust me. But just do it GAL and detach. It's gets lots, lots better. You will be really happy again.
Surfer.
Vapo, CaliGuy & Surfer...I will start trying the neighbor approach as of today. This will be a complete 180 from how I have treated her for 25 years, but it is worth a shot.
I have accepted that she has a mask on covering her whatever and she has also used that phrase of fake it till you make it before with regards to business.
I have read most of the homework and also most of No MoreMr. Nice Guy...I will try and finish.
I'm looking forward to having all three of my kids this weekend and then the two youngest all next week. They light up my world when they are with me. I am I am going hunting again the next weekend...good getaway with great fellowship. Not to mention a lot of good food and drink.
SBJ,
I noticed you use a lot of TRYs in your posts. Just do it (said the good people at NIKE) and DO or ON NOT, there is no TRY (said Yoda).
Please be aware that the neighbor approach is IMO the best way to go, it is a long term approach, so do not expect short term results, and it is FOR YOU and NOT FOR YOUR W, so do not keep looking over your shoulder if her behavior changes, the goal is for you to improve and build mental stamina and in time simply stop caring what your W is doing. And only then have you achieved a sufficient level of detachment... And let me tell you it is a blessing...
Thanks Vapo...I understand the Doing Approach also...I have coached enough LL Baseball to understand that. The hardest part for me is the cutting contact. I'm sure most of us are the same whereas our spouse was the one that we went to and talked to about everything. She was my best friend and she simply shut down. It is like she is DB'ing better than I am. She use to call me several times per day and then it just stopped.
I understand that those conversations were transferred from me to the EA partner, but it hurts me that they stopped. I have found myself talking to my brothers and some of my buddies more than I have in a long time, but the loss is still felt hard by me.
I read something yesterday that they, the MLC'er, pulls away from many of their friends and family and starts new friendships with people that don't know about their previous relationship...it fits her to a T. I received a call from her younger sister the night before last and she was balling about how much she is hurting that she has been shut out by my W and also by her mother who is the enabler of my W. I told her that I totally understand, and tried to explain to her about the path of the MLC person. I guess it would be a good idea for siblings going thru this to also read up on the MLC stages. Maybe they could gain some incite on the path like we are.
I have all three of my kids for the first time this weekend.I am so excited. My W and I always looked forward to the oldest coming home for his breaks...kind of feels weird to have him all to myself. The W's place is only a 3 BR and he doesn't have his own space over their. I'm hoping he just stays with me the entire Christmas break, but I'm sure he will sleep on her couch a few nights. He is such an awesome kid.
It is kind of funny when someone is on your mind and they happen to call you. I had just posted the info about my oldest son and he called. He told me that he is wanting to xfer to our local university and stay at home while he finishes school.
My wife told him that we were having problems starting around the beginning of the semester and I hope this isn't part of his decision. He is saying he wants to be closer to his family and faith support system instead of his fraternity boozing and partying support system.
Just want him to make this decision for him and not for us. While this will save us money, I still told him that it is ultimately his decision and I will support him no matter what. I love that guy.
SBJ
Just catching up with your sitch. You have been receiving excellent advice from folks. I agree with Cal that you are still spinning a bit. Normal for where you are in all of this.
From where I sit….you still seem to think that something YOU do is going to change what SHE does. It will not. Stop looking for some tactic to illicit a different response from HER and deal with what “is”. Try to stop worrying so much about HER.
You’ve asked how to drop the rope. It is actually easier to do then many believe. It really just takes ACTION. It takes YOU turning your attention inward. It take you stopping your thoughts from what she is doing, what she is saying, etc.
Consider this….when you were a child…how long did it take you to stop touching an open fire for the fear of getting burned? I am sure you figured out quickly that if you touch the fire you will get burned. Why is it then….that you cannot figure out that right now, you need to let go. Think about that.
When friends, family, etc start with….. “did you know what I heard, saw, read…” STOP them in their tracks and let them know that you prefer NOT to know or hear about it. That you are focused on YOU.
As for cutting contact…..
You really cannot completely cut contact as you have children together. That said, you can change HOW YOU communicate with her.
Here are a few things to think about…
1) Does the response require a YES or NO answer? If so, then your answer should be no more than 3 letters. I suspect the biggest issue you will have trying to follow this piece of advice is the FEAR YOU have…. The fear of how she may feel, respond or interpret your response. Honestly, who gives a rats arse.
2) If a longer conversation is required… do not try to explaining YOUR point of view or position. State YOUR point of view as a fact and leave it at that.
Example: No I think the kids should do X because (insert all of your reasons) can become this long answer where you find yourself explaining and justifying your position. A better way may be. NO the kids should do X. Period.
As for the younger sister calling you – stop trying to explain an MLC. Stop trying to be the fixer. FOCUS ON YOU.
MLC, WAW, Batchit crazy…..the approach is ALWAYS the same. FOCUS ON YOU, DETACH and GAL. There is a reason the approach is the same.
As Cadet would say….”Trust the process”.
eric, I am trusting the process more every day.
I have cut the length of my answers as you have suggested already. It seems kind of rude to me, but I have done it anyway.
My SIL is like my baby sister as I have known her for 25 years and in many ways we are closer than she is to my W. I have simply explained that the W really is in a confused state and that she is making decisions for herself right now. I also said that there is nothing she nor myself could do to change that.
Again, I guess I realize that I have lost my best friend due to this crazy chit and have to re-eval who I will have as my confidant from here. She has separated herself from that role.
I am accepting this more and more on a daily basis...it's hard, but I have to do it. Thanks for the input.
Hey guys...very good weekend with all three of my kids. It was cold and rainy all weekend, so we all just camped out and were together. It is sometimes great to do that. It is also good that they just enjoy being together with me...it totally warms my heart.
The W came by yesterday to give me some of the bill info that I have been asking for. She brought lunch which was kind of nice. Good to have all 5 of us together for the first time in months. The visit ended well.
My W and daughter were talking about Christmas stuff and mentioned that I had not put up the tree yet. The W volunteered to come over next weekend and help decorate the tree. She has always been the one in the family to deck out the house for holidays. Kind of interesting. She has already taken much of our newer decorations, so I pulled down all of the decorations that the kids have made throughout the years. We will see what happens.
My S19 helped me pull things down and said that we needed a manly tree, but then looked at me and said that he knows that I'd settle for the same tree she has decorated for years if she'd be back. He has such a wonderful soul and is very intuitive. He told me that he still doesn't understand what is happening and I told him that there is know way that we can.
Short week for me this week...whitetail hunting is calling my name.
I would have said it was no thanks and that You would like to take care of it with the kids (if they are not too old to be interested).
I think you are doing great by the way.
I agree with Roist here.
I have a feeling this is going to shoot your expectations up, you are in a really sensitive place now, and this might make you sad.
Someone I know who is a WAW really wanted to decorate a tree at her STBX's new place because she felt bad and wanted him to have nice things. He declined. It was too tough for him, I believe.
I think your S19 is onto something....... starting a new tradition might be healthy for you. You can be in charge of decorating a tree the way you and your kids would want. I honestly think with your level of attachment (which is soooo incredibly normal) it's just going to be harder. I've been there, done that.
I will say X3 .... Ginger took the words out of my mouth
SBJ ... what would happen if you followed your sons statement and actually went out and got 'that manly' tree?
Here is the thing, Holidays are brutal.... but her coming over to decorate the old tree is a cake eat fest, you are spinning...she is spinning... she comes over and does the traditional thing, everyone gets their feelz topped off and then after you will feel like the rug is pulled out from under you as its all a facade.
With the current sitch, maybe new traditions should be made. Lets say you and kiddo go out and get a manly tree, bring it home and decorate the thing without her. FOR YOU ... this sends a clear signal you are not waiting around for her... not just to her, but also to your kids, this is you taking control of YOUR holidays.
I totally understand...she said that in front of my daughter and my daughter told her that that sounds great. I am going with my daughter to pick out a few new things for the tree this week, and we will start the process alone.
I agree that it would send a signal to her and the kids that the kids and I will be OK either way she goes. I know that I am still spinning, but my expectations are slowing down. It is hard to see her, but it is getting easier to see her leave. I don't like that it is, but I know that that is where I need to be.
I am planning on hunting this week and trying to get some time in the whitetail woods with some quiet time. I hope all is well with everyone and thank you for your input.
Talking to her about finances is like talking to a 5 year old. It is crazy because she has always done our bill paying, but I guess she has slipped off of the deep end. She honestly doesn't realize how having 2 households for the time being is going to affect every part of our lives. Not to mention how divorce will as far as $$$ is concerned either.
I think my 10 yo has a better grasp of money at this point.
Is it that they really revert back to a time when they were footloose and fancy free or care free or what? She has always been the typical blonde in the room, but it seems like she is just out in left field right now. I am totally stumped. I just want to make sure I stay one step ahead of the $$$. We have separate accounts as well as one joint account that co-bills get paid from...challenging. Any advice would be welcome.
Welcome to the world of MLC and depression! Yes, they do tend to get a bit foggy when it comes to finances and I hate to say this, but you can't rationalize w/them. She's in a fog and thinks that "dad" (you) are going to take care of everything for her.
The best advice I can give you is to make sure you keep an eye on your finances. She's sweet 16 all over again and doesn't care how things are paid and thinks that even after a divorce everything will remain the same....she has absolutely no clue.
That is what I tried to rationalize with her at the beginning of all of this...now I know that was the wrong thing to do, but she said that logistics were no reason to stay together. Again, not realizing I was doing wrong, I followed with no, but 25 years of a loving and caring relationship is...it obviously had the wrong effect.
I'm learning more daily of the struggle. It is definitely not pretty. I am amazed that so many ppl stand for such a long time. I also feel blessed by the number of ppl that share on this board so we can all learn and grow.
I truly love her and I really believe that "we" are worth it. I promise to try my hardest for as long as I can.
I truly love her and I really believe that "we" are worth it. I promise to try my hardest for as long as I can.
Therein lies your problem. Trying your hardest just won't cut it. You have to find you again. You are trying too hard to chameleon yourself into something you think she might like. Quit it. You are the priority now and unit you get this simple yet hard to grasp fact, you will be stuck. You have to dechameleonify yourself, strip all the layers of you you applied over yourself over the years and get to the base. You have lo learn to love the most important person in your life, YOU! You have to be comfortable living by yourself and not pine over your W and losing yourself in a futile attempt trying to find that silver bullet.
Pull on that big boy pants and start growing a pair.
Stay strong buddy...
[quote=SBJ]
You have to dechameleonify yourself, strip all the layers of you you applied over yourself over the years and get to the base. You have lo learn to love the most important person in your life, YOU! You have to be comfortable living by yourself and not pine over your W and losing yourself in a futile attempt trying to find that silver bullet.
Pull on that big boy pants and start growing a pair.
Stay strong buddy...
Is dechameleonify even a word...haha!
I am doing better every day with being happy for myself and by myself, but am I suppose to not love her anymore? Am I suppose to not think about her at all?
I agree that I (and my 3 kids) are the most important people in my world, but I can't shut off a love that I have had for her for 25 years. Now, I can make myself finally realize that I do not "NEED" her to make myself happy and complete.
Is dechameleonify even a word...haha!
I am doing better every day with being happy for myself and by myself, but am I suppose to not love her anymore? Am I suppose to not think about her at all?
I agree that I (and my 3 kids) are the most important people in my world, but I can't shut off a love that I have had for her for 25 years. Now, I can make myself finally realize that I do not "NEED" her to make myself happy and complete.
Keep in mind ... Jack said this .. "most will tell you what you should do but have done exactly as you are doing."
Here is a helpful tip .. you are going to think about her, you are still fueled with all the good in the M, when you catch yourself spinning and doing that look at the clock on your phone, give yourself 10 minutes to do just that .. then drop it and move on, think about something else. Over time this will start to become less and less and you are on your way to detaching.
No one says stop loving .. just love from afar.
I have argued as much as the MLCr rewrites history and holds onto all the bad things in the M, the LBS often does the same with all the good ... there is a common ground there right>?
Is dechameleonify even a word...haha!
I am doing better every day with being happy for myself and by myself, but am I suppose to not love her anymore? Am I suppose to not think about her at all?
I cant believe you have not heart dechameleonify before
Ah yes, the love conundrum... The best way of thinking of it, is to shelve your love. Yes, just put it in a box and stick it on a shelf for the time being. At this point in time, your "love" will just hinder your progress. You, my friend, are a fixer, always have. But now is the time you have to just let your W be. Be what she wants, where she wants. If she wants to be a purple unicorn in Narnia, you have to let her. You can't control her. And also the best way for her to miss you is to see you doing just great without her, and not being like a sad puppy every time she sees you.
Thanks guys for the advice. Yes I am a fixer. Yes I am still trying to detach while still seeing her daily and also having to talk daily about work.
I honestly understand the need to detach emotionally from her. I am trying. I am doing things more for myself all the while trying to figure out how I am going to continue living a lifestyle that I have become accustomed to with my kids.
I am relearning what it means to be a single guy...yet I was only a single adult for a couple of years and that was 25 years ago. Much has changed in the world. It is exciting and scary at the same time.
What Cali said... Most of us schmoes giving you advice here did the exact same thing we see you attempting. So if my advice could help you shave a couple of day off of my time, that would be awesome.
If you are following other threads, you will soon realize that being a fixer is a common trait around here. Sometimes I think if I was more of a bully towards W, things might be different.
Ah, cheesless tunnels...
All I know is that it seems like we are all going thru the same thing at different stages. It is difficult to explain what we are going thru to others that have no clue. I totally appreciate all of the support. It is totally welcomed whether it is the form of a nice suggestion or in the form of a 2x4.
Sometimes I think if I was more of a bully towards W, things might be different.
Ah, cheesless tunnels...
What does being a bully mean?
I'm having to tell my W that Christmas will be slim for the next couple of years...she has this idea that nothing has changed. We had always agreed on Christmas shopping because she was the one that did all of the shopping. Seems that she is still wanting to share the responsibility of joint gift giving. She was kind of offended when I suggested that she buy gifts for the kids from her and I can do gifts from me. I don't like to rock the boat, but didn't she decide to leave the family unit?
She should not be allowed to pick and choose what parts of being a family she gets to have. She ended the family and everything that goes with it. This is a boat you should rock IMO.
What do you mean by "rock the boat"?
Do you want to love on eggshells? I'm getting the impression that may have been what you have done for most of your M? Walk on eggshells and let her steer the ship?
I will admit that there have been alot in the last 20 years that I have just let her choose. I'm not sure that it was to not rock the boat, there was just nothing that important. My W and I have been best friends and have always had the same opinion about most everything. We have similar tastes on clothing, furniture and life in general.
The only eggshells were when it came to intimacy...ever. Our differences were great, but workable. Everything else in our life was, as far as I can tell, running smoothly.
As for Christmas, she has always been the one that was jacked and excited about shopping and decorating for the holidays. She was the one that pulled the family together for that. Now she is separating my life from hers and yet she still wants to do joint Christmas. I don't know why it is so important to her to keep things together in that manner.
Sometimes I think if I was more of a bully towards W, things might be different.
Ah, cheesless tunnels...
What does being a bully mean?
I'm having to tell my W that Christmas will be slim for the next couple of years...she has this idea that nothing has changed. We had always agreed on Christmas shopping because she was the one that did all of the shopping. Seems that she is still wanting to share the responsibility of joint gift giving. She was kind of offended when I suggested that she buy gifts for the kids from her and I can do gifts from me. I don't like to rock the boat, but didn't she decide to leave the family unit?
Nah, I was thinking more in the line of some husbands, that lay down the law beforehand that there are lines that are not to be crossed. I always thought of them as bullies, but they are happily married now and we are the poor saps.
As for Christmas, she has always been the one that was jacked and excited about shopping and decorating for the holidays. She was the one that pulled the family together for that. Now she is separating my life from hers and yet she still wants to do joint Christmas. I don't know why it is so important to her to keep things together in that manner.
Oh, this is an easy one... She wants nothing to change, except her having her happy time. So she'd be frolicking around one day, and in the next day she'd have an instant family. That way she'd have all her needs met.
Nah, I was thinking more in the line of some husbands, that lay down the law beforehand that there are lines that are not to be crossed. I always thought of them as bullies, but they are happily married now and we are the poor saps.
I guess I don't disagree totally...maybe if there was a bit of dissension in the ranks then there might have been more excitement...RIGHT? Hindsight is 20/20 and we cannot go back...just forward. I am telling myself that daily so maybe one day it will stick.
I think that things are getting easier every day, but I'm not sure what that means. Occasionally things set me off, but I am able to calm down and make myself relax. It is people like you guys that help me keep my feet moving. THX
Oh, this is an easy one... She wants nothing to change, except her having her happy time. So she'd be frolicking around one day, and in the next day she'd have an instant family. That way she'd have all her needs met.
So she wants us to remain constant so that we are exactly where she left us...I guess that is why they sometimes wake up when they see their LBS totally let go and move forward.
I am still dumbfounded by the fact that "they" are so confused about what they want out of life or from us. We saw things as pretty darn rosy, but they only saw something missing. They have totally blocked out all of the love and laughter that we shared for so long and are only focusing on selfish needs.
SBJ
From what I have learned it comes down to respect. Allowing them to make the calls while avoids a fight/confrontation for that day ... over times it erodes the respect they once had for us. I know for certain I was guilty of this, I would agree to what she felt she wanted just to avoid an hour of debate.
Your W wants Christmas for the feelz ... its just selfishness at this point and again her getting her way IMHO. Whatever you do .. please decide for YOU.
Cali...the more I read the more I agree with you on the respect thing. I guess I assumed that our lives were just cruising along and things were fine. The issue I have is that I always expect people to say if they need something or if they are unhappy about something. I'm not a mind reader. Perhaps in our 25 year journey she has lost that respect for me...I don't know, but I will keep getting better every day because I am making it a point to do better every day in every aspect of my life.
I will work out harder than the day before. I will be more aggressive at work more each day. I will love myself and my family more each day. I will take more chances by stepping outside of my comfort zone more each day. God willing...I will survive this and thrive.
SBJ ... you will start reading a bit more and the further removed you can become the more honest with yourself you can be and look back at the M and have those "A-ha" moments more and more ... then you can learn/change/grow not FOR her, but because you truly see the error in your ways. And understand it was not about one specific thing.... erosion.... is the best way I can put it, over time little by little it goes away and neither side really notices it till all the sudden it just seems to be gone.
Touching on:
The issue I have is that I always expect people to say if they need something or if they are unhappy about something. I'm not a mind reader
In the MLCr you should have known, she should not have to tell you .... just as you assume she understands your needs though you may not have always been clear and vocal about them.
My M was guilty of this, I mean how could she not know I wanted Lasagna Wednesday night as I was making Garfield references all day?
You will no doubt survive this
My M was guilty of this, I mean how could she not know I wanted Lasagna Wednesday night as I was making Garfield references all day?
I don't know if you made this up CaliGuy but this is just an awesome analogy because of its arcane ridiculousness! perfect!
So I had a great long weekend in the woods with abreast group of friends...most of whom know what's am going thru. I answered a few questions and listened to them explain different trials that they have gone thru in their marriages. It is funny that we all go thru similar things, but some people are able to cope with things and some just cut and run in a panic.
I wasn't home for 30 minutes when the W came over to unload my oldest sons college stuff at the house..I'm not going to lie...I wanted to grab ahold of her, shake her, hug her, and tell her that she needs to come home, but I heard many voices (obviously made up) saying that it was a terrible idea.
I have noticed:
She doesn't look me in the eye for longer than a couple of seconds.
She stays several feet away from me.
She is overly playful with my kids...more than usual.
That I am more physically drawn to her than I thought...I guess I'm not detached enough.
Just little observations.
SBJ
Still all normal ways of dealing with what you are going through. I too was guilty of wanting to go all 'Shake-Baby' on my MLCr ..... you will begin to notice in your own sitch and others that mere actions are attempts at trying to get them to wake up, never works ... they have to go through this process and nothing we LBSs can do to speed this up unfortunately.
Eye contact is a big one ... even for me now. I have been as much NC since Feb as one can be with a child and just this weekend when I picked up my son she was looking at the floor like a teen who was in trouble. This is more than 3 years post BD ..... this is on them not us ... but it is strange given 25+ years with this person who always locked on right?
She will distance herself ... emotionally, physically .. all that ... its all part of them cutting ties with the old and chasing the new .. again they must go through with this and figure out things for themselves.
Playful with the kids ... yup, its almost like an act, like they are proving to themselves, the kids and the world they made the right choice and everyone is happier for it .... its all a mask.
You are more drawn to her now because its normal ... she pulled back and the natural reaction is for you to chase, but you are starting to listen to that inner voice of reason that knows you can not chase her into the tunnels .... continue to keep tabs on how you feel and document them in a safe space .. it will help you as you progress through this.
CaliGuy...I guess as for the physical, I have always been the physical, hands-on kind of person. It has been very difficult because for the last 4 months there was a moratorium on physical touch with her and with her out of the house for the last month or so, I am certainly missing that even more.
I have the good and bad angels sitting on my shoulders every time I visit with her. I understand why I am feeling this way, but the pain is hard at times. I am certainly having the internal struggle of what to do/say and what not to.
Not sure if you have ever read the 5 Love Languages .... I recall Jack mentioning that most LBS men of MLCrs would relate to Physical touch as being their primary language ... mostly due to the fact thta by the time we get here its been years of physical touch starvation ... can not say I disagree with him sa it was mine forever it seems .... currently I just kind of feel numb in that area.
You will wrestle with those 2 angels throughout this .... I know I surely did especially when I really started applying the DB stuff and she would react/test/temp check .... it gets harder to do what you rationally know you should vs the emotionally charged reactions .... I did not always walk the DB road consistently early on but it does start to become second nature and I found I use it in many relationships ... MLCr, son, work, friends ... it works for more than just ones marriage.
I have read it and yes to the physical touch being mine...definitely was not hers. She was more acts of service and praise.
I guess I am still spinning since she is moving the D at break neck speed. Maybe she wants to be done so that she can move on with another man and be legal/moral about it...I don't know.
I have gone as NC as a parent can and only contact her unless it is regarding them or something with joint $$$. It is difficult losing ones best friend and not having that confidant, but I guess I am becoming more self-reliant.
The W called and invited me to dinner tonight at her place with her and our kids. Kind of odd since she has never been one to cook, but I guess they all change 180 as well. I told her that I would let her know closer to dinner time. It is interesting.
I also received a call from the MIL asking me to come to her Christmas party on Christmas Eve. She said that she missed me being around with all of the family and then started sobbing. I know that she (the MIL) has enabled my W because she is her daughter, but it seems my MIL is having a harder time without me around than the W is. Who know...maybe she is and just won't show it.
Guitar practice and 3 miles on the treadmill should round out my day quite nicely.
My thoughts and prayers are with all of us going thru this crazy thing we call life.
OK I probably did the wrong thing, but I drove my oldest to the W's condo and we stayed for dinner...no longer than an hour, but it was a good time. I'm sure she was cake eating, but part of me couldn't turn down the invite. No R talk at all. It was just the 5 of us and the only thing that was off was having to leave to go to the other house.
In retrospect, I feel that she was just wanting all of her family around for the first time in months. My head is spinning...maybe hers is too. I know I will never understand how she "feels", but I surely hope and pray that she is feeling conflicted with her choices.
SBJ
So ... there really is not right/wrong ... white/black with all this .. its usually all grey area type stuff. The one thing you have to keep in mind above all else ... and this is hard for us fixer types, YOU matter. You need to adopt an alter ego, Clint Eastwood has been used here often ... ya know .. a mans type man. When confronted with a situation like the one you had ask yourself "What would Clint do?" (WWCD?) In this case I think you are fine ... Clint would accept the inite graciously, enjoy dinner and hop on his horse and ride home ... no harm no foul ... Clint would not pine after begging her to have a change of heart and come back home ... You did not share you did this, only that it was a nice evening and dinner as a family plants a seed for later when she may have doubts so I see this as being a good thing provided you stay on the tracks and do not form any expectations.
She is most likely conflicted, but she needs to get to a point where she knows what she wants and pursues it ... in the meantime keep doing what you are doing ... day by day get better.
CaliGuy...you are correct. I thanked her for dinner and walked to the door after hugging and kissing my two youngest kids. My oldest and I went to the store on the way home and I sent her a text just before bed thanking her again for the invite. No R talk at all.
She knows how I feel and I shouldn't have to tell her again for a lifetime. I remember that she is the one that told me that I tell her I love her to much and that I complemented her too much...that being said, I think the bank is full of that.
I did receive a call from a fairly close friend last night that had caught wind of our sitch. He told me that he knows exactly how I feel because he and his W went thru the exact same thing 10+ years ago. There was no S with them, but he took a hard stance and she snapped out of it. Even though it worked out for them, he was totally distraught for a long while...due to the emotional betrayal from his W. He said that he and his wife were keeping us in their thoughts and prayers.
It is sometimes overwhelming that this sort of thing happens to so many people all the time. Makes me realize that we are all just imperfect humans that have to make our own decisions and suffer the consequences of our actions.
A lot of people go through it
I know people who managed to dots together after a time of distance still while living together
I know others who like me got D
One friend MLC XH keeps trying to get her back..they are friends now,,she doesn't want him back
Sound like you did good and I do believe they are conflicted and many of them probably stay conflicted for some time to come
WE usually have less regrets as LBS because we do the hard work of grieving and really eventually let go and move on
the MLC never grieves the loss or the mess they created which I believe adds to their misery in the end-
Thanks peace for the reply...I seem to be seeing it more now that I am aware of it.
I just spent the afternoon with my FIL...who is totally at a loss with all of this. He is like a father to me and this has been a big blow to him. I told him that I have to get myself to a place where I can be the man I need to be for myself and for my kids...if she wants to come knock on the door then she will have to make that move. He knows that I adore his daughter and that I will do the work I need to do for my family.
Discussing this with FIL is tricky. Be open, be honest but don't reveal everything and definitely don't use him as indirect messenger to W. That could backfire as she could feel ganged up on. If so she will fight her corner like a trapped rat.
Plus one concept in DB is making the WAS believe you are moving on without them. So messages indicating an open door counter that.
What you said is not wrong, just may not be strictly DBing.
I imagine my FIL will jump into fix it mode if ever he hears about us. I get on well with him and could talk to him. I don't think I will though. I probably would only say that W has thought about this for a long time and I respect her choice. I may add that I have been hurt but now I just want to move forward and ensure my sons are the least affected possible.
It is hard to know what to say. Don't dwell on this. You are doing well.
Get through the next two weeks as best you can and in the new year I want to read about your aims, goals and actions planned going forward.
Best wishes
roist...she has stopped talking about anything personal with her father and one of her sisters. The FIL is very non-confrontational anyway and would tell you his opinion, which he has to her months ago, but he'd never continually argue with her about it.
I have totally backed off of any R talks with her as she has filed for a D and I guess I know where her head is at on the matter. That being said, she knows that I am still in love with her. She knows that I believe that things could be worked on to save our M. She know that I would be willing to have her back. I guess I am just wondering if she ever will want to reconcile...that is the million dollar question. It is difficult reading on here how people have waited with the hopes of reconciling their marriages, only to have that not happen. Some of those people seem to have never dropped the rope connecting them to their spouse. I just don't know if/when is the right time.
I want to be strong for myself and my children...and oddly enough I want to be strong for her. I don't truly know the turmoil she is going thru inside. Is it confusion, anger, depression, or what? Until she has made this journey we will never really know what it is.
I just saw something this morning that I liked and will have to think on daily. It said..."Don't worry about your situation...trust his plan. God has the final say!" The power of prayer cannot be explained, but the power of prayer can be experienced.
All I can do is be me and make myself a better version of me. I will try and be positive throughout the Holidays although I know it will be difficult.
SBJ - You sound like you are getting to a good place in your head and in your heart. We have similar styles I think but are perhaps dealing with a somewhat different style of W.
I too have focused on strength but without the benefit of faith. I am envious of people like yourself who Believe. I know it can be a great comfort and I have immense respect for people who truly live their Faith.
One of my role models earlier in my journey was Don Quixote. Yes, perhaps he was a madman who nobody took seriously but he was also devoted to Honour and Duty and true to his Dulcinea. A small statue of him stands guard beside my wedding photo on my desk.
Just like Don Quixote we are surrounded by well meaning people who are determined to "help" by pointing out our madness or by attempting to intervene. Pay them no mind (except for us here - we know everything ...
) and especially do not count on them to follow your flag. Square your shoulders, hoist your lance and ride forward to battle the giants. You are not riding alone. You have your Pride and Faith along with you.
SBJ,
I also believe that God has a plan for us, he knows what our day will be like before we even wake up. I read a devotional everyday and through my whole sitch it seems to focus on having faith in his plan for us. It is hard and I think I do at times but then when the doubts come I know I am not having faith. Keep up with the making your self better for you and your kids!! Yes the holidays are tough! Just remember the reason for the season!
I too have focused on strength but without the benefit of faith. I am envious of people like yourself who Believe. I know it can be a great comfort and I have immense respect for people who truly live their Faith.
>>>
Just like Don Quixote we are surrounded by well meaning people who are determined to "help" by pointing out our madness or by attempting to intervene. Pay them no mind (except for us here - we know everything ...
) and especially do not count on them to follow your flag. Square your shoulders, hoist your lance and ride forward to battle the giants. You are not riding alone. You have your Pride and Faith along with you.
I do pray daily that God will allow my M to be healed, but I have faith that things will work out in his time. SBJ,
I also believe that God has a plan for us, he knows what our day will be like before we even wake up. I read a devotional everyday and through my whole sitch it seems to focus on having faith in his plan for us. It is hard and I think I do at times but then when the doubts come I know I am not having faith. Keep up with the making your self better for you and your kids!! Yes the holidays are tough! Just remember the reason for the season!
Ok guys I need some advice. The W came by to discuss bills and Christmas arrangements this morning. Very cordial visit. I helped her carry some things out to her car and she says..."Thank you for being so nice and making things so easy and friendly around the kids." I was kind of floored. I have always been nice and friendly. I have never been one to raise my voice. I just answered with...you know how I feel about what's going on and I'm not one to be mean and cruel. I also told her that I cannot just turn off my feelings. She said that she cannot either. I answered with...you've done a good job so far with turning them off. Her only response was that she was just trying to thank me. I got pulled into another talk and said too much.
How do I tell her that we won't be friends...I will be cordial, but I can never be just friends with her. She wants to put me in that FZ and I am not that guy. I refuse to be that guy. Need help please.
Ok guys I need some advice. The W came by to discuss bills and Christmas arrangements this morning. Very cordial visit. I helped her carry some things out to her car and she says..."Thank you for being so nice and making things so easy and friendly around the kids." I was kind of floored. I have always been nice and friendly. I have never been one to raise my voice. I just answered with...you know how I feel about what's going on and I'm not one to be mean and cruel. I also told her that I cannot just turn off my feelings. She said that she cannot either. I answered with...you've done a good job so far with turning them off. Her only response was that she was just trying to thank me. I got pulled into another talk and said too much.
How do I tell her that we won't be friends...I will be cordial, but I can never be just friends with her. She wants to put me in that FZ and I am not that guy. I refuse to be that guy. Need help please.
I don't think you tell her, I think you show her. It might take her awhile to get it, but she will eventually.
I think ideally you would have responded to her initial comment by saying, "Thanks. I think keeping things cordial is important for the kids." And then shut up.
None of us get every conversation "correct" but I think coming up with the ideal response afterwards helps us get the next conversation closer to ideal.
I'm glad things were friendly this morning. Did you wife say that she wanted to be friends? If she didn't, I don't think I would raise that subject w/her just yet. You can be cordial, but friends...to them friends means something else, i.e., when I want something from you, I'll ask for it. Friendship means something totally different to us LBS. Friends wouldn't do what the MLCers have done to us.
There will come a time when you can tell her how you feel about being the just a friend...but until she raises the issue...let it go for now. Continue as you have been and always remember...actions do speak louder than words. The time will come, but I do think this is something that could wait until after Christmas.
SBJ ... its tough man ... especially with the Holidays.
I have here on sale a case of Cherry flavored STFU smoothies ... buy some. You were gold till as you admitted you got pulled in and said to much.
There are 2 schools on "Friends" some will say the FZ is better than the A-hole Husband zone ..... others like myself feel its important to make it clear to them we will co-parent to the best of our abilities but in no way are we interested in the demotion from husband to friend. I am guessing you fall into this camp as I did.
I know much of my advice come with a story .. this is no different. I was in the military and went through SERE training. For those who do not know what this is .... its Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape. I never had to use it ... till .. yup .. MLC. Was not shot down and landed behind enemy lines it was with my MLCr. So in a sense when you feel this coming on (over time you will notice it before it happens .. in some cases you know before you even see her that its coming) you have to adapt to this mind set of only giving them Name, Rank and serial number ... but in this case I memorized the following concerning D and what the MLCr has fantasized it will look like, because this is in fact what you are battling ... in her head you will be the best of buddies and she can chase that euphoric pipe dream.
"I do not agree with your decision, but I respect it and will not stop you from what you are doing, that is your choice. However I am not interested in any friendship (cake-eating), I will co-parent with you to raise our wonderful children to the best of my ability."
End of conversation and you bounce off to do that thing you have going on. Deliver it in a kind matter of fact way and off you go. Brace for the backlash as it will come ... but I believe they must realize reality will be much much different than what they dreamed up (understand this has been planned for a bit ... and they have it all laid out in that fogged up noggin of theirs)
Thank you Rose, Job, and Cali...I'm not so harsh like they are in the Godfather where they say someone is dead to them or the family, but I will not share her with anyone.
CaliGuy I like how you said that. It is very matter of fact. They have to realize that we want them in our lives, but only if the MR can continue. I am no Plan B and I'm not her gay BFF. (Not trying to sound homophobic, but she has said how she has always gotten along well with gay men. She'd say because they had no ulterior motives.)
I also agree that she has this notion that we will remain close friends...based on some friends of our who have done it. Their case was a WW who left the husband and then tried to work it out. The husband didn't want to reconcile and now they are friends and co parent well. I do not want or desire another friend.
SBJ - I don't have good advice but can sympathize at least and yes - have my own story.
My W has held her affair as a closely guarded secret. I made it no secret to her that I was also holding that secret out of love of her and a wish to not see her be hurt. "Protecting her" was a phrase I used.
On pre-move-out night when she told me she was leaving we did talk a bit. She was shocked both when I told her that if she was never coming back that I would feel no need to even be cordial to her. The next blow was when I told her that if she were no longer part of my family that I felt that I would have no duty to continue to protect her secrets.
They live in fairy-tale princess land where everything works out for them just as they wish. Truth darts - carefully applied are quite the shock to them.
Hard time today...found out early today that the W wasn't feeling well.
"Come home so I can take care of you..." I kept having that in my head all day. Never wrote it, but thought it too much. I want her back, but...
It was a very relaxing weekend with all of the kids. Two more weeks and 2016 will be just a bad memory.
Hi SBJ,
This struck a chord with me:
Ok guys I need some advice. The W came by to discuss bills and Christmas arrangements this morning. Very cordial visit. I helped her carry some things out to her car and she says..."Thank you for being so nice and making things so easy and friendly around the kids." I was kind of floored. I have always been nice and friendly. I have never been one to raise my voice.
I have often thought that I too would want to divorce the person my husband claims me to be. Over the many months since BD I've often wondered if he even knows me at all. What I've come to understand is that they create this image of who they need us to be to justify their leaving. Often that image has little or nothing to do with reality, hence the believe nothing of what they say part.
Good job not acting out on trying to take care of her. I know how hard that is, believe me.
Hang in there. Glad you had a nice weekend with your children. Sending {{{hugs}}}
That's my problem with all of this. She claims to everyone that I am her best friend, but that she needs more passion. I wouldn't treat one of my lesser friends like this, and I wouldn't treat my best one like this.
This EA really messed with her mind...she forgot that we had those giddy feelings before...they were just 25 years ago.
I am really missing her...the pre BD her. Having her next to me wherever we went. Bumping into her in the bathroom while getting ready in the mornings. Sipping coffee by the fireplace. Or simply joking with one another...we were always picking on each other in a fun way. It's the little things that are missing for me. I miss my friend and companion the most.
I just hope and pray somewhere inside her lost soul that she does too.
BACKSLID A BIT...the weather is cold outside right now and I fixed some homemade chicken and rice soup last night. The kids all know that the W is sick and suggested that I run some to her, so I did. She was very appreciative. All I did was drop it and run. She thanked me for it and then I hit the door. No R talk at all.
I probably should have told them that she is a big girl and can take care of herself, but I didn't. I think that I am too caring and too much of a pushover.
I would not beat yourself up over it SBJ. I did a lot of that stuff early in the sitch and with the Holidays its tougher to maintain in your own sandbox ... I admit I have found myself lately feeling a bit more soft but know not to poke the hamster at this point.
The danger with delivering her soup is expecting something in return ... so just mind yourself of keeping zero expectations and seeing this as pursuit which I think you do ... hang in there.
The danger with delivering her soup is expecting something in return ... so just mind yourself of keeping zero expectations and seeing this as pursuit which I think you do ... hang in there.
That is the hard part...we all have expectations, but I guess you are right in that I need to keep mine to zero. I know that this is a long prospect with a very low percentage of success, but I also have to have hope. That is the problem I am having...keeping hope yet keeping expectations very low.
My husband brought me soup when I was sick last winter. Granted, I am the LBS not the WAS, but I also didn't read it as more than it was: a kind gesture from someone with whom I have a mutual history of care taking.
I don't think you back slid at all.
Calling her or texting her to see how she's doing as a follow up? IMHO that would be pursuing.
xo
I haven't called or texted her in weeks unless it has to do with something urgent for the kids. I know I am a fixer and probably too much of a nice guy, but I have always taken care of my family when they needed help or didn't feel good. I guess soup is just soup.
That is the hard part...we all have expectations, but I guess you are right in that I need to keep mine to zero. I know that this is a long prospect with a very low percentage of success, but I also have to have hope. That is the problem I am having...keeping hope yet keeping expectations very low.
Oh by no means am I implying this is easy... totally get that. But it does make it harder on us if we think "Ok, I will run this soup over in the cruddy weather and she will see what an amazing guy she is losing and as she eats my magical potion soup she will come to her sense and come back home"
That is simply you trying to manipulate the situation in a way right?
Like I said .. I did those things, for us guys its hard, most of us are compulsive fixers and its a very tough trait to squash because we feel like we are doing good and get frustrated when we are not rewarded for our acts of kindness. Read up on 'covert contracts' and see if this fits you.
I haven't called or texted her in weeks unless it has to do with something urgent for the kids. I know I am a fixer and probably too much of a nice guy, but I have always taken care of my family when they needed help or didn't feel good. I guess soup is just soup.
Like I said .. its really not a big dael not a huge backslide, but just look inward and honestly ask yourself what your motives were .... its not a bad thing being a good guy ... but it is if you are allowing yourself to be set up here (expectations) ya know?
CaliGuy...yes I am kind of the poster child for the Mr. Nice Guy thing...I know that those are the things that I need to 180 from, but it is difficult changing your entire makeup/belief system in such a short period of time. Not trying to read her feelings, but I believe that at first we were equally balanced and over time we morphed into the giver/taker relationship which was enhanced by the Mr. Nice Guy thing that I learned from my dad. Hence the fact that I feel that over 20+ years she has lost respect for me.
That being said, I need to work on me to earn my own self-respect back. She may notice, but it may be too late...I can only worry about the future now and not focus on the past.
ADVICE NEEDED...
I have invitations by both my FIL and MIL for their Christmas parties on Friday and Saturday nights. I am very close to both of them, but I have not had an invite from the W. I have told them both that I will have to play it by ear, but that things are different now. What do I do?
If you are close to them, I would go to the parties and not stay very long. There's no harm in attending and you can mingle w/the guests w/o having to interact w/your wife. If she can't handle your presence there, that's on her, but both your FIL and MIL are close to you and would love for you to attend.
BTW, your wife won't issue an invitation because she's not the hostess of either party, she's a guest, just as you would be. If you think you are strong enough to attend, I say go for a while and then make your excuses and leave early.
Just my two cents.
I should have mentioned that they are just small family parties. The FIL's party is just he and his wife, my W and kids, and the SIL's and fams.
The MIL's party is about the same size, but with a step-BIL and family.
I love them all, but I want her also to know that things are different and will be if she continues down the D path.
The only people who are going to be hurt if you don't attend are the MIL and FIL and you. Your wife won't give a fig about your absence...but you have to decide what you want to do. Maybe you can visit w/the MIL and FIL on a different day?? If that is better for you.
You are right...she doesn't care anymore period. Or she is so totally confused that it appears that she doesn't care about me/us anymore. I love her and my extended family. Maybe I should just go and show her that I can be strong thru all of this.
I guess it is crazy how the MLC'er is much better at DB'ing than we are. The NC thing kills me. My best friend has cut me out of her life by her choice. She says that it is all her doing and her choice. She even says that one day I will agree that this is the best thing for us. Sounds like total MLC talk to me, but it hurts that this special person wants to close the door on our life together, or as she puts it "restructure our family".
Just venting:
I usually have a great time during the holidays, but I am having a bad time right now...emotionally/financially, but I am holding strong spiritually. I know that there is an answer, but like most, I want it now.
I have lost my wife, best friend, favorite companion, life partner, and the mother of my children all at once. She has so many roles in my life it is hard to fill that void. I miss her more every day and I just don't know why she doesn't see that what we had was truly special.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
Hang in there buddy... Remember that in any given moment there are at least 6 billion people that are worse of than you...
Stay strong, you are not alone...
SBJ
Yeah this time of year is tough ... I caught myself spinning a couple days ago. The financial issue to me is one of those things many do not talk about/address as most of us now are maintaining 2 separate house holds ... I once did a quick calculation of how much MLC has cost my family monetarily and it made me want to up-chuck.
Emotionally ... its brutal. I consider myself pretty detached but the Holidays pull at those last little strings that are left .. the ones that seem impossible to snap after 25+ years. I thought about it the other day, how can one just throw all that away so easily then I am reminded of all I learned and I realize its the crisis they are in, those times were real and meant something .... just know that. I know its really tough this time of year.
Like you I look towards God for an answer, and explanation ... I too have not received an answer but I have faith that when its all said and done I will realize why I had to go through all this, I know its His will and its for a specific reason. The scriptures that have been thrown my way the past week (more than one occasion) has been "Walk by faith, not by sight" .... He is working in ways we can not see nor understand .. continue your journey and allow Him to do His work.
CaliGuy...That is the same one that has hit me this week...all I have right now is faith...I know that he has a plan for us and I am certain that this trial is going to work out. I have also had to ask for will power, patience and strength during all of this.
My mindset has changed from "I need her" to "I want her" in my life. Maybe that is a start to detachment. It is just the fact that she can so easily cut me out of heroine that is so bizarre. I agree that it is due to the crisis, but that doesn't make it easier to accept.
Have a Merry Christmas!
CaliGuy and SBJ,
We must be reading the same book...my daily reading said living by faith, rather than sight, enable you to see My Glory, the plan for your life is unfolding ...when the time is right the way before you clears....
I also have to remind myself this is his plan and not to worry about the outcome....its not easy as you all know!! :-)
Wishing you guys happy holidays!
CaliGuy...That is the same one that has hit me this week...all I have right now is faith...I know that he has a plan for us and I am certain that this trial is going to work out. I have also had to ask for will power, patience and strength during all of this.
My mindset has changed from "I need her" to "I want her" in my life. Maybe that is a start to detachment. It is just the fact that she can so easily cut me out of heroine that is so bizarre. I agree that it is due to the crisis, but that doesn't make it easier to accept.
Have a Merry Christmas!
Its rough ... hence why its called a Bomb-Drop because out of no where we the LBS feel like it came out of nowhere.
You are doing well ... its a very difficult time of year for all involved (even if the MLCr does not show it). And yeah ... call it crisis, MLC, alein abduction it does not make it any easier especially this time of year. Just know you will survive this, know there is better on the other side of all this ... new year is coming and a new you awaits.
Thank you both for your support thru all of this..."WE" will all get thru this with our faith intact.
I have also read up some on the Prodigal Spouse and have found some of the prayers helpful. There were some associated to Hosea that I found interesting. It was Hosea 2:1-8.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the odd side...just had a kind moment from the FIL. He usually gives my wife and I a check for Christmas. Obviously because of the sitch things are different. He just brought me a gift to my office...extremely kind gesture.
Once he left I hit my knees and gave thanks and pray for my W. No kidding...5 minutes later she starts texting about Christmas. I have had NC all week about anything. She was asking if I had gotten stocking stuffer things for our animals yet. Also said..."It's OK if we don't do stockings this year but if you want to we can...I just didn't want to do it or not do it if you weren't. Just let me know". Maybe I'm as lost as she is.
Bless your FIL. That was such a kind and thoughtful gesture to come to your office and give you a gift. You are so lucky that he is there for you.
As for your wife, well, she's coming out to play for the holiday. So, what are you going to do about the stockings? Do them or not do them? At least she is showing some concern for the pets. A little late in asking, but then again, they can't plan two minutes ahead and she may be opening the door for a bit of dialogue w/you.
All of them need our prayers this holiday season. We will most definitely get through this w/our faith intact.
Merry Christmas!
She replied again asking if I was planning on going to her dad's family party tonight. I asked what her opinion was on the party and she said that I am very welcome. She said "we would all like it...if you are comfortable".
As for the stockings that she and I usually do...they are usually filled with small personal gifts...Santa also stops by VS every year and fills her stocking with new women's unmentionables. I think that that is out for this year, but I have missed shopping for them. Might just stick with candy, chap stik, and maybe something small. Already helped the kids purchase something for their mother and will have it taken over to her condo on Christmas Day.
Are you going to the party? I hope you feel comfortable enough to go. Evidently she doesn't appear to mind if you go. It would be a good time to show her the new and improved you w/all of you self confidence, etc.
I think the stocking stuffers you mentioned are great little gifts. They are useful and not very personable at all. Yes, I agree, the unmentionables should be out this year. There is always next year...if she wakes up and reconciles w/you.
If you decide to go to the party, have fun and be yourself.
BTW, it's time to start a new thread.
Because she kind of said that "we" would like you there, I will probably go. I didn't have any other plans.
I will start a new thread. THX
Go and enjoy yourself. If it gets to be too much for you, politely excuse yourself and go home...but I think you will enjoy being w/family.