The Phantom Cyclist - Journey Leg 3

Divorcebusting.com

Prior thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708284&page=1

Let's try for a fresh start here. The tires are pumped up, I've oiled the chain and hope for a nice quiet ride for a while.

Andrew,

In your last post on the previous thread, you said this:

Feeling accused of being solely responsible for the destruction of my MR, my W's A

I hope when you are feeling stronger and calmer you will reread that thread and realize that no one was accusing you of being "solely responsible" for anything.

There is a world of difference between saying, "you contributed to the issues in your marriage, and understanding how you contributed is an important step in the healing process" and saying "what happened is all your fault."

People were saying the first thing. You apparently heard the second. That might be something interesting to discuss with your IC.

In the meantime, you have a holiday weekend coming up, right? I think you are planning to see your son, but I can't remember what else you have planned.

What's the traditional Canadian Thanksgiving meal look like? Any differences from our version down here?

Originally Posted By: Rose888

In the meantime, you have a holiday weekend coming up, right? I think you are planning to see your son, but I can't remember what else you have planned.

What's the traditional Canadian Thanksgiving meal look like? Any differences from our version down here?

Rose888 - Apart from the seal blubber and polar bear steaks it's very similar

Actually an American would feel right at home at a typical Canadian Thanksgiving feast. D24 makes the same basic meal for her husband from Georgia that she grew up eating. Other than a difference in the biscuits (D24's husband says he prefers his wife's now) it's the same.

Thanks for stopping by.

Well, see, there's a difference right there. I've never seen biscuits at Thanksgiving. :-)

Hey Andrew. I am bad with metaphors. I see you want a quiet ride. I'm ASSuming that you would rather use your thread as a journal than to receive advice?

I'm just clarifying so I can respect your wishes.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Ginger - yes. For right now I'm working on rebuilding myself and working on things like my arrogance and other issues I have. W continues to be in her burrow and I'm trying to get healthy. I know that I have lots of work to do on me but it's a slow process.

I'm in the process of writing a far-too long post that tells my entire back-story that will hopefully give people some context. I hope to wrap it up shortly because the whistle is about to blow to start work.

I mainly use this place for journaling and releasing the spinning thoughts about W in a safe place where I won't then act on them.

Hey Andrew, I have noticed that you've stopped making negative comments. But my question was asked for you to figure out WHY you made them in the first place. You don't have to figure it out, but that's what I was wondering. Perhaps it's something that you've always done, but you weren't aware of it. Who knows.

You had told me that I should share my story from the beginning. Do you think Newcomers is the place to do that? Even though it's an old story?

I just thought that I'd write my entire back-story here that is probably buried in the hundreds of posts that I've made, most of which aren't worth the time and effort of people reading. It might give a bit of perspective on yesterday's fracas on my thread.

If you don't feel like reading along, please don't bother. This well may be meaningless for many of my visitors. At the very bottom is are three summary paragraphs if you want to skip to it. The bits in between are the story that I feel supports it.

Please keep in mind that this is of course being written from my point of view and with my interpretation of history. The actual facts may well be different. I believe this to be a true tale though. Did I have my own faults through this all? Absolutely.

The purpose of this story is to provide some context to the actual MR I had and who I feel that I am as a person and who W is as a person. People of flesh and blood with their own dreams and passions and their own failings and weaknesses.

In late summer 1988 W and I were set up on a blind date by a mutual friend. That night I walked her home and on the way asked for a kiss while we sat on a bench beside the lake in the moonlight. I got that kiss and it was fabulous. I spent that night with W - no sex happened. I thought she was testing me but in reality she was having the last day of her period.

The next night W wanted to see me again so after a morning visit that she had with her parents we spent the afternoon and then that night together again at her apartment. Following that W insisted that I spend every night I could with her and most of the days. When I suggested that I should stay at my own apartment W told me that she was afraid of her downstairs neighbour and needed me to stay to help her feel safe. I did, getting up, dashing across town to my own apartment that I shared with 2 others to get ready for work then getting home from work, shaving and then spending the evening and night with W. She was very controlling of my movements and time.

After about 3 weeks I told W that I was in love with her. It took about another month for her to tell me. She told me just before I was leaving for a lengthy business trip to Quebec that she loved me and was telling me because she didn't want me to forget her - as if I could. While on my trip I spent vast amounts of money talking to her for hours on the telephone. We also met up for a wonderful weekend in Montreal.

Shortly after I got back from my trip I was introduced to W's family and soon thereafter proposed to her, first feeling her out to see if she would accept. She did. We then went and got an engagement ring which W picked out herself along with the wedding rings. I didn't really care for them and told W this but they were the ones she wanted so that's what we did. We then told our families who went into overdrive planning the wedding.

A few weeks after this for a variety of reasons I decided to get my own one-bedroom apartment and suggested that in a few months that W might want to move in with me. W decided that she was going to move in immediately and did. I didn't object.

We had a small social circle that include my perhaps 5 or 6 close friends and W's single BFF. Since I traveled a fair bit W would spend time with my best friend and his partner - a gay couple - while I was away. I had several other friends as well who I would occasionally go to strip clubs with and have long lunches. Those friends were looked down on and W made it plain that she didn't want me to spend time with them so I didn't progressively over time.

As we settled into housekeeping and life together our sex life plummeted. I had a rather high drive and W had a rather low one. We agreed that to keep the peace that we would ML on Sunday mornings and that I wouldn't pester her in between. This carried on for the next 27 years. W was also very protective of her "stuff" and her privacy. Efforts by me to tidy and organize our small apartment were stymied by accusations of me moving her stuff and of losing things. I learned that anything of her's was off-limits. She used to joke that "what's mine is mine and what's our's is mine".

After about a year of marriage an opportunity came up to buy a run-down house cheap in the area that my family is from. I wasn't keen on the idea because it would mean leaving my career behind. W and I went away for our first anniversary which included some amazing sex and she convinced me that it was worth the risk and so we moved.

When we moved into our home there was much work to be done on it. Most of it was fairly heavy work so I did the bulk of it with W assisting with some. Any messes made during renovation were strongly criticised by W and I learned to do what I could while she was gone so that the mess would be cleaned up before she saw it.

Soon our first child was on the way as planned. We were ever so excited. About 8 months in the practice I worked for started to go under and my job was one of the casualties. We had a hard decision to make. We could go back to the city and pick up where we left off, or we could try to stay where we were and make a go of it with me doing free-lance work. We discussed this together at length and chose to stay.

As we were living together I did notice that a minor hoarding issue that my W had getting worse. It was mainly magazine that she would buy with the intention of reading and of clipping articles out of. Piles of magazines would build around the house and I was chastised severely when I would suggest that they be recycled or consolidated. W also started indulging in "retail therapy" leaving bags of purchases hanging from doorknobs unopened and unused. Since W at that time also controlled our finances I didn't know how badly they were getting. W was in charge of them because she had been trained as a book-keeper and because she refused to let me see the receipts for her purchases or the cheque register of cheques that she had written.

After our first child (D24) was born I was one of the proudest, happiest people on the face of the earth. I soon discovered though another facet of W's personality that I had only glimpsed before. Small babies are by their very nature unreasonable beasts. An exhausted W would often start screaming at the baby that she had to shut up and that she was going to kill her. I would dash into the room, as gently as I could extract the baby and let W get some rest. I did certainly do my share of baby care getting quite proficient at diaper changes and walking the floor.

When D24 was about 1 W said that she wanted to have another child. She had actually said that moments after D24 was born too. I was very hesitant about bringing another child in given W's temper. We had been using condoms for protection against pregnancy which W hated. One morning in the early winter W seduced me, refused to let me put on a condom and S22 was conceived. At the time my thought was "it's worth it" and the sex that time was indeed quite good.

The next summer S22 was born. Prior to his birth I arranged to get a vasectomy so that no further children would be brought into the world by us. W went along with this because I told her that I thought that 2 children were enough and that I didn't want more. I didn't mention anything about her temper. When we first got married we had originally intended 4 or 5 children because I love children and W seemed quite maternal. Things played out with S22 much like they did with D24. W getting impatient, frustrated and screaming at him. I again would rescue him and let W have her rest. With S22 I learned the differences between diapers on boys and girls and got quite good at not getting sprayed too often.

Time passes. W manages to stop her retail therapy and our finances are in tatters. The magazine hoarding plus partially completed craft projects and crafting books continues as does a general run-down of our household with dishes piling up, meals being done slap-dash at the last minute and our home being in such a state that we were embarrassed to invite anyone over - so we didn't. Because we weren't inviting anyone over, we rarely got invited out. All family events with W's family were "must attends". Even though my own family was quite close we rarely saw them as Christmas, Thanksgiving and all other events were now held with W's family alone. Because of my work schedule and the lack of socializing with others my social circle shrunk and shrunk. W and I were both involved in the community though and she formed many friends who she would visit while I was away working. I suspected an A a couple of times but had no proof even though she would often invite single men from the village over for brownies and coffee.

In 2002 I had a particularly bad year for business and our finances were stretched beyond limits. Calls from creditors were frequent and collection letters started appearing in our mailbox. W was doing her best to contribute as well but got sucked into an arrangement with one of her customers which ended up with her having few billable hours per week but the week being booked and unavailable for other customers. I started searching for new customers and ended up taking a "real job" as my FIL put it a nearly 3 hour drive away back in the city. I also at this time took control of our family finances. It was a struggle to get out of W what she had been spending money on but she would slowly come around and entered into our book-keeping software what she spent.

Our finances started improving and our children were now teenagers. I was spending a lot of time away from home but as I would joke, I wanted to spend each night in my own bed with my own wife. My weekends were spent running errands, doing chores and spending time with the young S22/D24. W and I had joked for years that the three magic words that saved our marriage were "have fun dear" and it was true. We had our own interests which we indulged. At this time as well W decided that she wanted to start going to the Caribbean for vacation. I didn't believe we could afford it so W saved out of her own pocket money and went with a FF. I was very proud of her plus a bit jealous so we made saving for a Caribbean trip a priority for us. Our finances were better and we managed to go away several years to a modest all-inclusive resort. W kept pushing for us to move each year up to more and more pricey resorts and as long as the savings could be found I indulged her. The savings could be found.

In 2014 we had our 25th wedding anniversary and went away to Niagara Falls for the weekend. I'd wanted to go and explore the mini-golf (one of my favourite activities) but we never went. Instead we went cross-border shopping. I'd mentioned several times prior to our trip about my wish for min-golf (which W usually enjoys too) but she ignored me. This is similar to the prior year when I researched a nice local resort where we could spend a week by the lake and I could do some sailing. We went and checked it out, I got all the information but any time I would bring the subject up, W would change the subject and we never went.

In around 2014 I had noticed W getting progressively more depressed and having burst of anger (never directed at me) more and more often. Daily things would be frustrating to her and our evening visits would mainly consist of her spewing about whatever issue she was having. I would mainly validate and listen and on the rare times she would ask about my day I would mention whatever pet peeve I had that day to stay on theme and then turn the conversation back to her. She is an excellent listener. That's one of the qualities that captured me in the first place. She just was no longer interested. Because W seemed more and more depressed I worked harder on appreciating everything about her that I could. I complimented her outfits and appearance. I thanked her for household tasks (she would wash the dishes, leave them in the drying rack and then find me to announce that she'd "done the dishes".) I tried to spend more time with W as well using up most of my Sundays going out to breakfast with her and spending the days with her. Leading up to this for a few years meals which were W's area of responsibility got more and more erratic. Where before dinner would be sometime between 6:00 and 7:00 it would often be 8:00 or 9:00 before dinner was served, often slapped together at the last minute. Given W's temper I wouldn't ask about it or point out that I had to get up at 4:30am for work but would sit quietly reading and drinking beer from about 5:30 on until dinner was ready. This plus a diet that included fast food breakfasts and snacks after for many years packed on the lbs to me. W herself continued her habit of sitting for much of the afternoon reading or later playing on her phone / IPad eating potato chips and dip. I think this contributed to the meal issue because she wasn't often hungry in the evenings.

I had been happy going to Cuba for vacation. It is a wonderful country with a vibrant, engaging populace and fabulous beaches. It was also dead cheap. In 2015 though W said she wanted to move up the scale again in resorts so we started saving even more money. In 2015 as well we finally for the very first time in our life together were free from personal or credit card debt. We felt great. W would brag to her friends and acquaintances about what we'd accomplished and her former reluctance to reveal anything about finances changed to wanting to share with others how we'd done. In February 2016 W decided that she wanted to go to Mexico. I shrugged my shoulders and said OK as long as we could afford it. She went to a different travel agent than the one we usually used and came back with 3 or 4 suggestions. It was right around this time I believe that the A with OM started.

W was quite happy with my suggestion of a modest resort in Mexico. It had WiFi so that she could stay online with her friends and Facebook. She also said that she needed an update to her phone plan to be available for work. In reality it was so that she could carry on with OM while we were away.

The resort was "ok" for me. Not much interesting going on around it but if you just wanted to sit and drink it was great. Our usual pattern on vacation was to get up and breakfast with each other then I would go for a walk while W would sit in the sun and read. We'd have lunch together, I would go for another walk and then come back have several drinks either with W in the sunshine or in the lounge (I'm not a big sun worshiper) until dinner. After dinner there wasn't much to do as far as entertainment goes so we would go to bed.

It was while we were there that W got "very" drunk twice. The first time on March 7th I was visiting with some other guest and W came down absolutely sloshed and proceeded to dominate the conversation. She then told me that I'd be better off without her and that I should find someone else. I passed it off as "drunk girl" talk - she'd been saying things like this for the last month or so and told her that I was devoted to her and that no one else could fill the place in my heart that she occupied. The next morning W couldn't remember anything and had a quiet day. On March 9th, the last day before we left W got very drunk again and over dinner leaned over and told me quite seriously that she was leaving and that there was nothing I could do about it. I was floored and protested. She just repeated what she said. I didn't know what to do or what to say. I now realized she was drunk so carefully took her back to our room and tucked her in and sat and had a long think. I knew she was serious and that what she said was real. I just didn't know how to deal with it. I thought about storming out but couldn't abandon W in a foreign country so I crawled into bed and tried to sleep.

The next day we left and W again didn't remember anything but noticed that I was tense. She joked with friends that she didn't know what she had said to me. The next morning - March 11th - my birthday I woke W up early and we ML. After she had her shower I asked her if she was indeed leaving me. She said Yes. I asked if she had anything that I needed to forgive her for. She said "well isn't that the elephant in the room". I asked her why she felt she had to leave. She refused to day. She said she couldn't put it into words.

That was BD1 which took 3 days.

Over the next month I begged and pleaded with W to tell me why she had to leave. She refused to answer. Finally in apparent frustration she told me that she had been planning on leaving since the prior summer. That drove me into a fury of digging and research which ended up with me going into her Facebook account on April 18 and discovering OM. As I found this, W came home and started making my lunch the next day. I walked calmly downstairs and sat and said that I wanted to talk. I asked her about OM. She confirmed that she was indeed having an A. I asked if it was physical. She said that yes it was. I asked if it was serious. She said that it was serious for him but she wasn't sure. She then told me that it was an "accident" and she never intended it to happen but that she was going to continue. She then left, went to the MBR and moved her pillow into the spare room while I sat at the kitchen table and wept.

That was BD2

The next day we both managed to go to work not interacting much. My "I love you" was not returned. W seemed to have turned into a strange alien beast overnight. Her eye colour even changed from blue-green hazel to bright bright green where it stayed. That afternoon I texted her that we needed to talk and set down some ground rules. I suggested that she talk to OM first and figure out what they wanted. When I got home I had a few things on my list I wanted to say. W had a sheet of paper that turned out to just have a statement that she didn't feel I was being fair by making demands of her. My demands were simple. No carrying on the A in our home. I would stop snooping. I would not approach or contact OM in any way. I also asked her to not tell me if she was going away for a weekend with OM (that didn't work out).

Soon after I found DB and ended up here and you can read the rest of the story if you care. It's actually not all that interesting and is mostly the ramblings of a terrified, lost and hurt man who is trying to understand and find his way home.

The reason why I wrote this was to provide some insight into my character, that of W and our MR. I have always been devoted to W and indeed let her drive most of the decisions of our MR. Mostly her decisions were good ones. Some have caused problems over the years that we've had to deal with. Is she perfect? No. Am I? Absolutely not. We were very much in love though and it is true that love can indeed conquer all.

I've been accused on this forum of being a passive doormat, of not being assertive, and lately of being controlling and domineering.

The true man is perhaps somewhere in between. I am indeed a very passive person, able to weather the winds and tides and go along wherever the current carries me. Generally happy merely because W was with me. Was I truly happy in my MR? No, but I was content and for me that was good enough. I am however underneath the passivity a strong, passionate person who has certain lines that they will not allow to be crossed. Did W cross those lines? For many people in this world, yes she did plus spat on them along with showing me arrogance and disrespect.

As I wrote some time ago though - if you asked me a year ago if I would put myself into the stocks for W and allow myself to be pelted with rocks and garbage I would have unhesitatingly said yes. Well - that's where I am. It's quiet right now, but I'm still locked in those stocks and it was W along with myself who put me there.

Thank you for your kindness if you have read this. As a disclaimer, I am merely telling my story so that I hope you can understand it, not looking for particular advice or direction at the moment. I am working on getting stronger, rebuilding my sense of self and dealing with those flaws that I know I have trying to be the best AndrewP that I can be. Will that AndrewP appeal to everyone? No and I don't want to be that sort of AndrewP. Will that AndrewP be a generally passive person with an underlying core of strength, stubbornness and determination? Yes - that is my goal. Will that be a person who will appeal to W? I have no clue.

Thank you again.

Originally Posted By: dream

dream. I have one old and very dear friend to whom I have talked about the ups and downs of my life with W over the years. I had dinner with him last night. Other than him I feel that I have been universally positive in my conversations to others about W. The reason why I was posting negative comments here was for two reasons. The first was to try to understand why she continued to be attractive to OM - which I know that I will never understand. The other was partly to spew and vent on my own but to also try to form context and justification in my own head for why I should leave her behind. As you will know - as of today, I will not abandon her nor leave her behind. I also don't see anything changing that in the near future. If she chooses to fully leave me and ask for a D I will grant that to her with minimal fuss.

Originally Posted By: dream

You had told me that I should share my story from the beginning. Do you think Newcomers is the place to do that? Even though it's an old story?

dream - if you share your story in Newcomers it would be read and welcomed there and I expect be a beacon of hope and strength for others. If you posted it on another forum it would not get the same coverage.

I would suggest though that one of the moderators such as job or Cadet would be able to give you better advice.

I hope you do post it - I'm a firm believer in the power of stories to instruct and to heal which I'm positive your's would.

Thank you for telling your story. I am going to respect your wishes and not comment or offer advice. Best of luck to you on your journey, Andrew. Continue to look within even when it's hard....that's the way to peace.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

uRworthy - Thank you for the visit and the good wishes. I will indeed continue my journey including continued deep self-examination. The friend that I visited with yesterday made a point of mentioning that I am much stronger than I have been. I still have a long way to go.

I feel that both W and I have a lot of baggage that we're dragging along with us as my story illustrates that will need to be dealt with as part of building a stronger MR if she does indeed come back. I'll need support from here and will absolutely have lots of questions then and we'll both need support from professionals, friends and family.

Minor journaling.

I still don't know where W is on her own journey. I reconnected to Facebook without fanfare this morning and noticed her making a kind comment on an update from one of my cousins that she doesn't know well but quite likes. Perhaps she's coming out of the tunnel? No way to tell. It's good that she's still looking at / caring about my side of the family. In the last month or so she's seemed to be posting less about angst and a drinking / vacationing lifestyle and engaging more with past friends including my own relatives.

My own post this morning was of the decorating I did of our front door using tall wild grasses and wildflowers. I feel very proud of how our home looks. I will confess here that I hope that W does as well. It's had favourable feedback from D24 which is nice because it was her home as well.

One advantage I hope of the Facebook break is that I'm going to try to reduce my visits to that platform. After BD2 especially I obsessed like many of us do over what she was doing, what she could possibly be thinking. My "Confessions of a Failed Mind Reader" thread tells everything that's needed to be know about how bad of an idea that was for me.

Anyhoodles - back on the bike. Time to make my lunch and perhaps think about dinner. It's a fairly nice day today and I may take in a walk around the village since I'm working from home today. I haven't done that in a couple of weeks due to illness etc.

Andrew

Ditto what Urworthy posted. I will respect your wishes. I hope that everything works out for you and that whatever goals you have for yourself are achieved.

Reading along as I have for some time now ... I too will follow suit and refrain from offering any advice ... Good luck A

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

Andrew

Ditto what Urworthy posted. I will respect your wishes. I hope that everything works out for you and that whatever goals you have for yourself are achieved.

Thank you eric. I do hope that you're not writing me off as a lost cause / too stubborn to understand. I've valued your input.

It is unfortunate that yesterday's dialogue spun out of control and I certainly bear a large portion of the responsibility for that. If I offended you (or others) I do sincerely apologise. Since I know that you, along with Mach1 and others who were trying to help have been down even bumpier roads than I am on I hope you look at what I wrote from my side of the screen and understand that I was indeed trying to understand what was being told. I was just unable to. It wasn't because I was being devious, or prevaricating, I just didn't get it. My own responses seemed to be being ignored or picked to pieces and treated as nonsense or me trying to hide from the truth. As I tried to explain myself with increasingly detailed responses the conversation spiraled out of control. Please know that in real life that only happens to me when the other person is not listening and talks over top of me. I had a conversation with my first IC (who fired me) which spiraled out of control in this fashion when she insisted that I tell her how often I would yell at, demean and beat my W. Yes - she was sure that I - a man who has never raised a finger against any woman was beating my wife. When I protested she would just repeat her demand louder over top of my words. I had to stop the conversation and ask her to respect me and give me an opportunity to speak without interruption. At that point she told me that she was completely unable to help me, requested immediate payment and told me that I could come back if I wanted but that she didn't see any point in it because I would not admit to my (non-existent) violence problem. To this day I have no idea how she got that idea and neither does my W when I related the story to her. My current IC is much better and did tell me that my first IC is known to not be successful with male clients.

When I write here I try to write the complete unvarnished truth even when and I hope especially when it is not flattering to myself. It may look like I'm trying to hide behind my words but that is never my intention. I hope that in future dialogues that all sides will carefully listen respectfully and consider what is being written by everyone. When the inevitable mis-understandings happen I hope we can resolve them in a collaborative fashion rather than confrontational.

Not everyone will interpret the written word the same way. As Rose888 once wrote, we all see other people's situations through the lenses of our own. What is obvious to one person from their own perspective and experience may be completely incomprehensible to another. While there certainly are similarities, every situation is in fact unique with different people and different dynamics.

I do hope that when I do have questions or you see me straying down the wrong path in the dark forest through the fog that you give me a whack. I am indeed a slow learner and have difficulty at times understanding what people are trying to tell me and you seem to have a gift for breaking it down into simple words that I can understand.

Thank you again.

Hi Andrew,

I'll take the bait. I read that entire post. I feel sorry for you. Sounds like your wife was a real piece of work. I'm surprised you did not leave her long ago. How did you manage for 27 years?? Seems like she is 95% to blame. One suggestion I would have is to go back and reread all the "nonsense" from yesterday and then go reread that long post you wrote.

Anyway, one aspect was kind of similar to my situation (in a slight way). What do you think your wife thought of your scheduled Sunday sex sessions? Do you think she would call it making love as you did?

Originally Posted By: pinn

pinn - Thanks for stopping by and for your question. Yes I have re-read yesterday's dialogue and I certainly take responsibility for how it spiraled out of control. This is the third time that this has happened on this forum where I've felt under attack by what seems like repeated strikes with the same 2X4. I wonder at times if I'm suited for the online life.

I wouldn't say that my W was a "real piece of work". It's very difficult in a forum like this to give the depth of a person. She was a kind and loving woman with a great strength of character. She cared deeply for me. If she were to write something similar about me, I'm sure the same sort of comment could be made about me being a similar "piece of work". I don't want to point the fingers of blame at anyone in particular much less 95% of it depending on what we're trying to blame anyone for. We are all flawed creatures - after all, we're put together in the dark by amateurs so you can't expect perfection.

Where I was trying to go with what I wrote was to write about our MR from the perspective of who dominated, who made decisions and how we dealt with that one facet of our MR. W very much was in control of much of our life and generally I went along with it. I do honestly believe that she would agree with this statement.

WRT to the Sunday sex - I am quite confident that for probably 3/4 or more of the time she regarded it as duty sex right from soon after we were engaged. Something that she was obliged to do as a dutiful wife in order to keep me happy. I would do my utmost to be a gentle and considerate lover and try to get her aroused and interested in the process but to be honest only succeeded in that a small handful of times in a year. It never seemed to be a matter of interest to her to actually get aroused either. Given romantic opportunities such as trips or staying in nice hotels, me coming back from a long trip, or something special happening in our lives never made any difference to her. For her sex was Sunday morning - if she didn't have her period and if she felt up to it.

Her low desire started soon after we moved in together. Whether the prior great sex was part of her using sex as a tool to manipulate me me or not and once she'd landed me as a fiance she felt no more need to work on it, I can't say but do believe the answer is yes. She absolutely would use sex to manipulate me and get her own way in a number of instances. W also has always had pain and mobility issues that complicated things and undoubtedly contributed to her low desire.

In later years the problems with our sex life was compounded by the fact that I would often drink to excess on Saturday nights (6 or 8 beer) making me a less than appealing lover in addition to my increasing weight. I would get up first, take care of the dog and cats to decrease the chance of being interrupted, shave (sometimes shower) and clean my teeth but the fact remains that I was sometimes slightly hung over and would at times even smell of stale beer. With my increasing weight and age plus the alcohol consumption impotence would be a problem a handful of times. We'd laugh and joke and she'd say that I got a "participation ribbon" for trying. I would only ever get one chance to try and she would only make minimal efforts to arouse me. I was expected to be ready to go after some basic affection and get the job done with as quickly as possible.

I may well be wrong (and often am) but I do honestly believe that our sex life wasn't what drove her towards OM. It never seemed to be important to her, just another chore to be done. Whether she got me to the finish line or not never seemed to be a priority for her although in the last couple of years she did start making more of an effort. I do think that she just wanted to get it over with.

If she had stayed and I was still the AndrewP who drank a lot of beer on Saturdays and weighed 270lbs I suspect that the Sunday morning sex thing would have continued it's trend of being less and less frequent and perhaps have stopped by now. I also believe that she wouldn't miss it and would be relieved. I remember telling her soon after we met and I noticed her pain and mobility issues (she has bursitis in her hips) that sex wasn't as important to me as she was and that she didn't have to do it.

If W does chose to come back to her thinner, more sober husband I full expect that sex will continue to not be a priority for her and I will just have to accept that which I will.

I had a long post all typed out but I think it may not have gone over well. So I'll respect your wishes as well.

So I'll just say this... remember the convo yesterday and you saying that you had no idea what else might be an issue (basically that was the jist)?? Maybe start with your above post and dissect that?? Best part is that its your own words. Research what 'duty sex' does to the partner, how it makes them feel, how to get of that cycle etc etc etc... By the way, there were about 5-6 other flags in your long post that I would really think about if I were you. But I'll let you look into that if you care to do so. They are all right there.

Good luck my man

pinn - I realized as soon as I read your post that you weren't "taking the bait" - you were in fact leaving it to try to resurrect the prior discussion. I fully expected a response like yours this morning which is why I started up the computer to respond.

On your side can I please ask you to look up autism spectrum disorder and INTJ personality types? These describe me. Many emotional or "look within yourself" vague (to me) references just plain don't work with people like me. To me, this all smacks of "blame the victim". Again, please try to see this from my side of the screen. I have always been completely honest in what I write. The lengthy posts are not to justify myself, it's to explore my feelings and the history that I have and try to explain as best I can to you and others what is going on in my head and in my life.

I also did see the seemingless meaningless posts by others at the beginning of the thread where they were all saying "I'm telling you that I'm not talking to you" just like a bunch of teenage girls who are making a point of shunning someone that they've cast out. It's no good unless they know that they're being shunned after all. I chose to take the high road there and be polite to each and every person and not take their bait. I could have mis-interpreted that after all.

I am here to heal, to learn, and to release. Yes, I am a slow learner especially on picking up emotional cues.

So - even though my repeated comments that I do not in fact understand are interpreted as me being dense - which I am - or resistant to looking within myself I'm going to ask one last time - please - please - spell it out for me. What is it that you want me to admit to that I've not already admitted to. I'm not a perfect person, none of us are. Yes, I lack emotional intelligence and empathy is difficult for me. I make more of an effort and try harder because of that. Yes, I can be dismissive, pompous and arrogant.

What have I missed here.

If in fact the intent of these posts is to publicly shame and shun me - then so be it.

I have noticed on this forum and others related to other topics that I've participated in the past that they go through cycles as different dominant personalities pass through. Right now on newcomers we have someone posting to everyone who will listen that they need to reveal their W's affair to the public, shame her, start dating to make her jealous and then slap her with a D and then she'll run right back. This is counter to most of what MWD writes and I hate to think how many people are following that advice. Heck, he even dug up an old open thread of mine and told me to do the same thing. When I politely rejected his advice he told me that I was doomed to live forever alone because no woman respects a cuckold.

For a while both Newcomers and MLC were a place of kindness and healing and helped me a lot. People like Jack_3_Beans, job and yes - even eric listened to me, gave me good actionable advice and were very patient with me. That seems to have shifted again and it makes me very sad.

I spelled something out that you may want to think about in the post right above this one. No response required.,, but something for you to think about,

Andrew, when people try to spell it out, you accuse them of being schoolyard bullies or trolls.

It was only in the last thread that I realized you were probably on the spectrum. You might want to include that more prominently in your recitation of your story. I think it explains a lot, both about your relationship with your wife and your interactions here.

The gentlest way I can think to point it out in a straightforward way that you might understand is to say, "you mention that you compensate for your lack of emotional intelligence. I don't think you are compensating as well as you think you are. If you want a good marriage or romantic relationship in the future, you might want to work on your emotional intelligence compensating skills some more, now, without waiting for your wife to come back. You should seek a counselor who is experienced with social skills coaching for people on the spectrum."

There has been a few posters who have come to these boards who always felt the need to keep re-explaining themselves, claiming they must have not gotten their point across properly because they didn't like the response they have gotten. So they must have expressed SOMETHING wrong.

But they didn't. They were heard loud and clear and understood. No matter how many way it was explained, in whatever context, the advice always remained the same. No one was not listening or talking over them.

It is a hard balance to be straight forward so that you understand without you getting defensive that people are insulting you. When people try to tip toe and go gently as to not offend you or have you become defensive, then it is hard to explain in a way you can understand.

That's why people have chosen to respect your wishes of simply letting you journal.

Andrew,

I understand Autism Spectrum Disorder. My career is in the field of developmental disabilities. I am, by no means, an expert, as we can always learn more.

That being said, I am going to try to point some things out to you, things that may make you think I am picking on you. I am not. I want to be very clear in trying to show you what other people are seeing.

I would ask that you hold back any reactive response you might have and maybe put the post away for a while and come back and read it again later before responding.

Please know that no one is accusing you of not being honest and forthright. Additionally, this is NOT the playground and while some people can be bullyish, the people who posted to you in the past few days, are not bullys. They are simply all trying to get you to see what they see.

Originally Posted By: Andrewp

If in fact the intent of these posts is to publicly shame and shun me - then so be it.

I can assure you that the posts are not to publicly shame or shun you.

People here believe in growing and becoming better people. Very often, we don't see clearly how we present ourselves to the world. When someone quotes a sentence or two, it is to help you see what they are seeing.

There is no shame in wanting to improve yourself.

Andrew, we have all been there.

Originally Posted By: andrewp

I have noticed on this forum and others related to other topics that I've participated in the past that they go through cycles as different dominant personalities pass through.

While this is true to some extent, here, in MLC, you will find the same people posting for years.

Originally Posted By: andrewp

Right now on newcomers we have someone posting to everyone who will listen that they need to reveal their W's affair to the public, shame her, start dating to make her jealous and then slap her with a D and then she'll run right back. This is counter to most of what MWD writes and I hate to think how many people are following that advice. Heck, he even dug up an old open thread of mine and told me to do the same thing. When I politely rejected his advice he told me that I was doomed to live forever alone because no woman respects a cuckold.

Occasionally someone pops up around here who does give advice that is counter to DB philosophies.

While we are all entitled to our own opinions, and in some instances advice like what is being posted there now (I did go read it.) works, it isn't what MWD writes about.

Since this is a forum based on her books and philosophies, when someone like that appears, the "vets" and moderators do watch what they are posting.

However, this is a public forum and it is NOT a cult, and we are entitled to differing points of view.

As you may or may not have noticed, when someone begins going to extremes with their posts that are contrary to DB, the "vets" and the moderators are quick to step in and the person generally doesn't stick around for long.

Originally Posted By: Andrewp

For a while both Newcomers and MLC were a place of kindness and healing and helped me a lot. People like Jack_3_Beans, job and yes - even eric listened to me, gave me good actionable advice and were very patient with me. That seems to have shifted again and it makes me very sad.

I am sorry that you feel that way.

The only real difference in their posts and what has been posted to you lately, is how you read and reacted to it.

Which created a flurry of people trying to find similar but different ways to show you what they were talking about.

One thing we are a bit guilty of here as a group of posters is not wanting to cause more pain to someone who is already hurting. And sometimes, posters will wait, until someone else has posted what they wanted to say, and then they feel it is ok to chime in. Kind of like letting the "proverbial" cat out of the bag...

That can result in several quick posts in a short period of time, which can make the reader feel attacked.

Andrew, I know many of these people personally. I can vouch for intentions.

So now I want to show you a few things...

Call it cherry picking if you want, but please remember that you asked for someone to try to explain what you weren't seeing...

Originally Posted By: Andrewp

I also did see the seemingless meaningless posts by others at the beginning of the thread where they were all saying "I'm telling you that I'm not talking to you" just like a bunch of teenage girls who are making a point of shunning someone that they've cast out. It's no good unless they know that they're being shunned after all. I chose to take the high road there and be polite to each and every person and not take their bait. I could have mis-interpreted that after all.

This response is dismissive and rude. Specifically what I bolded and italicized.

While there are meaningless posts around these forums, when a person tells you they are making the choice to respect your wishes, that should be recognized as an act of kindness. Because that is what it is. It is NOT a form of bait. (At least not from these particular people.)

Calling Mach1 mean and Drew a troll, especially insinuating that you calling him a troll stung (which I would be willing to bet it didn't), was simply unkind. Additionally, asking Ginger and her D to move in to point out your "flaws", was rude. It also indicated that you believed her intentions were to be unkind. Insulting people who are trying to help you is simply a reaction.

Something we work on around here is our reactive behavior to things. We use something called the 48 hour rule, which means we leave it for a time period (generally 48 hours) and reevaluate our feelings, before responding. To ensure our response comes from a level head and not an emotional place within us. While it is a tool to help us not engage in negative interactions with our S, it is a tool that can be employed in every facet of our lives.

Originally Posted By: Andrewp

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

Forgive me as I haven�t read all your threads.

A bunch of drivel if you ask me. The bits written by some of the other people are quite good though especially I've been told on Page 6 of this thread or the first one in my MLC posting "Am I on the right bicycle" where Jack, eric and job gave me some great perspective and some excellent tools to navigate my side of this journey.

Please ignore the last couple of pages - for some reason we all got wrapped up in over-analyzing things that don't really matter at the moment.

Again the bolded comment, is somewhat dismissive and shows a lack of appreciation and respect for the time and effort the people who wrote to you, regardless of whether you agreed with it or not.

An example of a similar comment that would not be viewed as dismissive and disrespectful would be...

"I don't agree with some of what has been written by others in my earlier threads."

The italicized section, shows a controlling tendency within you. Since you found it unimportant, so should everyone else.

However, people here find it important because all of us who have come here have those controlling tendencies and it is a hallmark complaint of MLCer's. It is generally one of the behaviors that we all become hypervigilant in trying to correct.

Originally Posted By: andrewp

Yes - I come across in the written word sometimes as pompous and condescending. I even come across that way in real life at times. I've also said that I've been working on this for many years even long before BD - probably going back 20 years or more.

Andrew,

If this is how you come across in the written word, I can guarantee you this is how you come across to people in person.

You say that you have been working on it for a very long time, and I don't doubt that.

An action that would show you are working on it and are trying to change it, would be by not being that way.

That may mean rereading what you write and maybe rewriting it before you post, in the written scenario.

Slowing down in your responses and really thinking about how other people might perceive them is another action that would show you are actively working on it.

This type of behavior isn't something that just goes away. If we stop focusing on it, it will return when we don't expect it.

However, when the behavior/response continues without change, people will form the opinion that this is how you WANT to come across.

Is this how you want others to view you?

If it is, that is great, don't change a thing.

If it isn't, then I suggest trying to do something to make it different.

Right now, because I don't want to overwhelm you, I only want to address one other thing.

Please know no one is placing all of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage on you. MLC is something that none of us can control or predict. However, there are two people in any relationship. Both of those people do hold personal responsibility in the direction that relationship takes. While the LBS (most people here), isn't the one who initiates the split, both people, I will repeat, both people in the relationship have contributed to the demise of the relationship.

Andrew, if you are truly happy with the person you are and how you present yourself to the world, then please, by all means, remain exactly as you are.

Just know, that the andrewp you are, without any changes, is the andrewp that your W left.

The odds of her waking up and wanting to return to that same person, is unlikely.

Everyone around here wants the other posters to be successful in their endeavors. Whether that means through reconciliation, personal growth, job advancement, or anything else...the intention behind the majority of the posts by the people here is to help the person they are posting to reach their goals. However smooth or bumpy the road to those goals looks, is up to each of us.

cat04 - Thank you so much for stopping by and taking the time to post and to respond so thoughtfully and gently. I am in a very fragile state at present still and you have a good touch. I noticed your post about 15 minutes after you made it and as you suggested re-read it several times taking a break between reading and thought hard about it before responding now. I've also spent (as I often do) some time on this post trying to make sure that I have the content, context and message as clear as I can. As I write this I am also re-reading your post to ensure I am addressing some of what to me are the key points you have made as well as the points that I myself wish to make. As you suggest, I do in fact re-read what I post and re-write it many times, but did not on Tuesday afternoon. This post in particular has taken quite an amount of time.

While I've been told by many people that they believe that I am a high functioning autistic / low level Aspergers I have never had a formal diagnosis. I threw that label out in self-defence - something that I pretty much never tell people in order to try to highlight the message that when I was telling people repeatedly that I did not understand that in fact I did not understand. Being then told the same thing in what appeared to me to be the same way repeatedly caused my anxiety and frustration level to rise. Then having my responses, which eric accurately pointed out, were written in haste taken as being a defining characteristic of my interactions with my W added to my frustration. One thing I like about MWD's philosphy is "do what works" and when it doesn't work to try something different. This is also part of the scientific method. Nothing was working either on my side of the screen or on the other it would seem. Everything spiraled out of control and I had to walk away.

I'm not a big believer in "labels", in fact I'm uncomfortable even labeling my W as a MLC much less myself as autistic. A label fails to describe the complex swirl of chemicals, emotions, history and context that make up a human being. That is why I've been reluctant to self-announce labels that might in fact be taken to be (or be in reality) an attempt to hide behind that label and not take responsibility for my words and actions.

One of the things that I do know about myself that I can appear rude and abrupt and what I think of as a joke can be misinterpreted by others again as rudeness or being insensitive. Because of this, in my personal and professional life especially including my dealings with my W I try very hard to listen and empathize. I tend to talk very slowly, thinking over my words before they come out of my mouth or out of the keyboard. Some people find this frustrating and will rush in to complete my sentences for me, often incorrectly. When I rush, when I improvise, it will often come out in what could be seen as a "wrong" way if they can come out at all. "Tongue-tied" is a real thing and very frustrating when it happens. I have been fortunate during this journey that during a couple of critical stages, when W was going to see OM and on move-out night, that I had previously rehearsed what I was going to say and was able to effectively (I hope) deliver my message. You'll perhaps notice that many of my posts, especially in times of high stress have regular usage of the

emojii. It is my attempt (which has obviously failed) to let the reader to know that I am joking and to not take what I am writing seriously.

I would like to ask everyone reading this - if there is anyone left who is reading - that the AndrewP you've seen reacting wildly is the same AndrewP who used to repeated get into school-yard fights as a pre-teen for reasons that at this distance in time I no longer remember clearly. This AndrewP is generally buried very deeply and even my W has rarely seen him. Here, in this place and at this time though when I am exposing my soul and my past for review he is more easily released and for that I do apologize deeply to any and all who may have been offended.

I hope you can see from what I've posted on other people's threads in general I try to be kind and supportive. I am also a very trusting person who tends to believe verbatim what people tell me. That also means that I very often fail to be able to pick up nuance such as has been evidenced over the last few days.

Not to try to justify or excuse myself I would like to talk about a couple of the things that you took the time to highlight and that you wished to show me.

seemingly meaningless posts - well they were indeed meaningless to me. My intention was to hope that my new visitor would not take the last couple of pages as representative of me or my journey. They were representative of an AndrewP under stress and pressure who was reacting and reacting badly.

A bunch of drivel if you ask me was an (obviously) failed bit of self-deprecating humour where I was trying to indicate that my own comments were not as important as the excellent advice I was given.

The next bit is spread over a few parts and talks about a controlling tendency that I may have. I'm going to correct that statement - it is a tendency that I do have. I've known this for many years and it is one of the many things that I work on constantly and know that I will probably never fully be able to curb. Because of that I try to be constantly vigilant. Whenever I notice myself dominating a conversation or situation I take a step back to allow others to contribute. Am I always successful? Absolutely not. Is that perhaps why I tended to have a passive role in my MR? I'm not sure, the answer to that is perhaps more complex and I hope one day to understand it. I hope as will be seen from the fact that when my W told me when she was leaving and when I found out about the A and even when she walked out of our home and my life that I never tried to control her actions bears out the fact that I have had some success with this under even high stress situations.

To wrap up, yes, I am generally happy with the AndrewP that I am. The AndrewP that people have seen in the last few days is not that AndrewP. That is the angry, scared, hurt, reactive AndrewP who rarely gets air. The AndrewP that I believe that I am is a kind, caring, thoughtful AndrewP who loves and respects his W deeply. He is kind to others, especially those who are in pain or who are scared with whom he is also gentle. He has a strong moral code that he does not apply to others and a belief that he can overcome any obstacle that may be in his path. This belief has been shaken to the core in the last 7+ months but is slowly returning. Looking outside the last few days I hope you as well will see that in my writings. Those writings though have exposed my heart, soul and spirit including those dark places that I fully know exist. Giving them air hurts me but it had been my hope that showing both the light and the dark would give people here a perspective of the entire man who is just human and trying to do the best he can.

Thank you again.

"Hiya Andrew. I know your head is spinning a bit. I have to tell you that you have some of the best there is on here posting to you."

Holy Sht on a hockey stick AndrewP. Wow. I am not sure how much time you have spent combing the archives here...me quite a bit. Like 3/4 of the stories I have read, the stories containing people I have wanted to ask questions of but thought were loooooong gone, came out retirement and commented on your sitch. I cannot even recall whom I clipped the above quote from.

I do not have the energy to put it all in right now...I am exhausted for other reasons than right now. You had the best of the best giving attention and you said "when". I have got to spend a couple hours re-reading. I am not them though - we are contemporaries - I will be expecting attention when I return

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwww-------I got it!!!!!! I could not recall which literary character your responses were reminding me of AP....Melville's Barnaby, Bartlenbye - something like that, brain still muffled. The guy who would just repeat "I would prefer not to". Perhaps way off - if I am not, you have another book recommend from CT118. The character is content to just be is as be is, despite his own condition. If you do not know of whom I speak, again....another book, and a short one.

AP - how are you friend?

CT1118 - Thank you for asking. I'm surviving. I have joys and I have sorrows. I have pain and I have pleasure. I am alive.

This is no longer a safe place for me to expose my soul. I suspect that I exposed too much of the dark places that live inside me as they do inside all of us. I am still watching the stories of those people here who I care about including yourself.

I hope you and your son are well. I wanted to post on your thread earlier that I think you are doing the right thing by exploring your options and your own feelings on moving on. Looking at a map does not mean that you are on that journey.

Peace be with you my friend. If you wish to reach out to me outside of this place I can open a window to a room where I can be found.

Andrew,

How are you doing? Would you let us know. You don't have to go into the details of what you are doing, etc., but we are concerned about you.

Andrew, I am sorry for my contribution to making this space seem unsafe to you.

Good motivations don't matter much if they lead to bad results.

Quote:

This is no longer a safe place for me to expose my soul.

I am really sorry that you feel this way. I will speak for myself in that I am respecting your wishes to not comment and let you journal. I suggest that you continue to journal as it seems to be helping you.

It's rare for me to come to this forum, but a little birdy told me things that gone off the rails in this thread. Just wishing you well with whatever you decide to do going forward, AP.

AndrewP, how are you doing?

I'm doing a bit of cycling this week. I think it's because it's H's birthday soon and I miss him desperately. Anyway I am now sporting an elastic band around my wrist which I snap everytime I want to text him. It's working so far but I'm worried if people will think I'm a bit weird!

Let us know how you are doing, I do enjoy reading your journals.

Needed to get this written and out of my head. Nothing much of any real consequence but there's nowhere else I can write this amount of drivel and nonsense. I could perhaps write it in a private journal but part of my personality requires an audience. Odd for an introvert I suppose but D24 is similar. Not comfortable around groups but very public about our lives. W on the other hand is an extremely private person who is an extrovert and loves being around people and being the centre of attention.

I just went across the street to pick up my mail and almost walked over top of W. She's looking good. I don't know if she saw me or not. I spun on my heels and ran. I feel like a coward but an encounter in front of a group of people while she's working seems like all sorts of a bad idea. It's now 10 minutes later and I still have the shakes. In hind-sight I wish I could have seen if she was still wearing her wedding ring but that would have meant pushing myself into her space. Part of me wishes she'll come over and see me but I sincerely doubt that will happen. I had gotten a phone call for W from a charity she volunteers for earlier in the day and texted her the message - got a "thanks" back in a few moments.

Just to catch up on my story.

Last Saturday I participated in a charity walk to support the local mental health assn. I think I was the only person there who wasn't either obliged to be there as part of the organization or as part of a team from one of the sponsors. I stuck out a fair bit. SIL2 was there doing the warm-up (she's a personal trainer) and walked with me for a while. It was dark and I had my handkerchief so no one saw me weep as I was walking. Recent battles have fractured my shell but I think I'm getting stronger every day. I did "win" a door prize which included a coupon for my favourite restaurant which I went to that night for dinner. I "checked in" on Facebook because I thought it would be good to recognize their generosity but realized later that my post made it obvious that I was alone. I agonized later about W or our friends who don't know taking it to mean that we were apart or ask questions about why W wasn't there with me. Fortunately silence.

On Sunday I drove the 3 hours to have a late lunch / early Thanksgiving dinner with S22. While we were out I asked him what his thoughts were on me dating. He thought about it a bit and said that he thought it would be fine when I was ready. I commented that I felt stuck because I had no idea what W's plans were or even if she herself was dating (lies on my part - nose grew bigger). S22 replied that he didn't think she was dating and would be surprised if she was. So - he's still in the dark it would seem unless he's holding something back. It was odd because he commented on how hungry he was but then ate very little and took his dinner home as left-overs. Did he have a dinner planned with W later? No clue. He's been having his own struggles though so appetite could be a problem for him. He said that he was planning to spend the afternoon watching the Bengals lose another game. He is also in favour of going to see D24 with me in March for my birthday which is nice to hear. After we ate we sent a short Snapchat to D24 and her H to which they responded.

I had an appointment with my regular L today to get my will re-done. I think he was baffled about what's going on with me but gave me what seemed like good advice. My brothers will get Power of Attorney and the kids will get the insurance etc. The house goes automatically to W because we hold it jointly and there's nothing I can do about that without getting her name off the deed. Poking that bear right now is probably a bad idea. My L was astounded that there has been no communication, that I don't know where she's living and that there is no sort of S agreement in place already. I need to change the beneficiaries for insurance / pensions separately rather than doing it through the will but I have the forms. There are extra fees and complications in leaving that to the estate especially since D24 is in the US that can be bypassed if I leave it directly. I just need to find the courage to do that specific break from W. I took the opportunity to talk to the L as well about the possibility that W could just be waiting out the clock for a year to separate. His response was "it doesn't work that way", especially since I had earlier commented that I wanted her to come back and that I felt the current physical separation was temporary (that resets the separation clock). He also commented that she must have gotten some really lousy advice before stripping the house. For a D I'll be using a different L though if I go that route. I'm so confused about what I "want" right now that its driving me crazy.

I had a call from my boss earlier today asking about my health. He's quite worried about me. I told him that I appreciated him not pressing for details and that I thought that I had turned a corner recently. He seemed honestly concerned but didn't pry.

Other than the "thanks" a short while ago deafening silence continues from W. I was really tempted to contact her over the last week and ask her if she was still wearing her rings and if there was any hope at all that she would come home but did not. W continues to follow my SnapChat story - not every day, but most days. With everything that she can see of me, she can't help but know (I could be wrong) that I still love her, miss her and want her to come home. She should also see that I am living my life, finding joy and sorrows without her. I can see very little of her - really just when she checks on my Snapchat, our finances and what little she posts to Facebook. One thing of note with her Facebook posts she posted a meme to a friend of her's who doesn't like me and is a fire-starter saying that even though they disagree that they can still be friends. Not too much angst from her. When she reaches out and tags friends in posts there are only a couple now who seem to respond. Very few people press "like" on her posts. She's also been starting to comment on D24's regular status updates as well as a mutual friend - they guy who introduced us in fact. It felt awkward for me but I decided that I would continue to comment / like on this guys posts like I have all along. I felt extra brave by pressing "like" on a comment that W made to D24 after their troubles during hurricane Michael.

I am curious as to what W did during Thanksgiving. Realizing as I do now that these sort of family events are actually not very meaningful to her makes it possible that she just stayed home. She could have gone to see her sister, brother or even OM but there was absolutely no indication on Facebook etc that that had happened.

The updated will and power of attorney should be ready in a couple of weeks. I told S22/D24 that if W asks them that they can tell her about it but that I wasn't going to "bother" her with the information. She'll undoubtedly notice though when the payment goes through the bank. I'm also going to pick up some furniture at Ikea to replace some of what W took with her. I'm starting to make longer term plans that don't include W. I'm so very lonely though and I do love her so much and desperately want her to come home. If only me begging her to come home could possibly work - but I don't want her to come home for me. I want her to come home because it is her choice and that it's what she want to do. The temptation to take off my rings and announce that I'm separated and start looking for a NG is also very strong. I expect that is mostly the loneliness, not an actual desire though. My children would be disappointed if I gave up now and I wouldn't be true to the promise I made to W back in March that I would not be the one to give up first. Not knowing if she's already given up or not makes keeping that promise difficult. I can only presume that because she's not told our children, myself or made any other move that she is still undecided.

Even though I know I shouldn't put "dates" on things I'm figuring that I'll be going through the winter alone. In April, if I'm willing to slightly perjur myself I could file for D. In between, it will be dark and lonely and I will need to find ways to stay strong and not succumb to depression. I don't know if my IC will continue to be available to me - I suspect I only get a certain amount of time from the referral from my MD and those visits are only every 5 weeks or so. One of the big reasons I came here today was that I was supposed to see her today but she cancelled due to illness.

I was thinking today that I am one of the few of the cohort who joined this board in around April who is still "standing" and still in doubt. I believe HaWho and I might be the only ones left who haven't moved out of Limbo and into some sort of purgatory or new life. A tiny part of me wants to scream to the universe that this "isn't fair" but I'm a huge believer that nothing in this world is "fair". You get what you get and you deal with it. You can't change the card in your hand but you get to pick how you play them.

Thank you to those who have been kind enough to read. Peace be with you.

Hi Andrew - so nice to hear an update from you. I've been thinking about you. Hope you had a nice holiday. And good for you participating in the charity event.

Saw you mention me. We are not the only ones still "here." Mleigh, Bright and Ciluzen are all still with us. I am probably missing others. There are others who just don't post as frequently as we do: I think of Tfish. Plus, there are many, many lurkers: hi, all!

Winters are tough with the long, dark days. Personally, my salvation is to get fresh air each and every day + I hike or play tennis. It keeps me sane.

Plus, it's a good time to cook lots of comfort foods, right? Any new menu ideas?

HaWho - thanks for checking in. I'm still working my way through all the food in the house that W left behind. I was talking to S22 and we might tackle the whole chicken together at Christmas time. There's still lots of chicken breasts, ground beef, pork chops etc to go through. When I was single 30 years ago I did love cooking - these days though in many ways it's just a chore that needs to be done. Not having much appetite not much appeals.

Minor journaling update
- Did a major backslide yesterday. After weeks of having the pressure build inside me seeing W yesterday set it off. I sent her a couple of texts yesterday evening. Part of this is based on my reading of some of the posts by 2Lady who appears to be our new analytical / researcher type. One thing she wrote resonated with me that LBS who are compassionate seem to have an increased chance of a return. I have always treated W with respect and compassion but wanted to reach out to her in her tunnel. I also was hoping for, but not expecting some clarity.

A - I saw you earlier today. You looked great. I hope you weren't offended that I left without saying hello.
W - I wondered if that was you - sorry you felt you had to leave
A - I didn't want to intrude into your space especially while you were working. I hope you know that you can walk right back into our home and my arms any time. My only ask is that I am your Tigger
A - I can find forgiveness for everything. The last few months have given me time to heal.

<dead silence>

A this morning - I am unsurprised at the lack of an answer. Remember please that I love you and know that this is a journey you have chosen to take without me. I will continue to wait for you to choose your path. If you want me to set you free I will. If you choose me and our family I will be grateful and do whatever it takes to rebuild our marriage. Forever does indeed happen one day at a time. I love you more than life itself.

<endit>

Will this have an impact on W? No clue. Will it drive her farther away? I hope not. Will it cause her to reconsider me as an option? I hope so.

I'm sure you all can appreciate the level of frustration that I have right now. Over the next few days I need to get things organized for my estate, writing W out of the bulk of it. I'm also toying with the idea of visiting my D lawyer again to get her to itemize a plan for me pushing forward for a D in April if I'm still in limbo. I have no idea if that's what I want or not though but I like being prepared.

I still try to have hope that W is actually dealing with her issues and that I am more than just a Plan B. I'm feeling pretty "Plan B"ish these days though and the idea of moving on without W is growing more attractive. I'm getting a lot of pressure from family and friends to take that route. I don't know - should I have some legitimate hope that W will wake up, look around and decide that she is willing to come back and reach out to me?

Hey Andrew

I'm sure others will chime in, but I think that was a tactical error. I understand where you are, and your hurt, but that 'silence' probably tells you what you need to know.

Compassion is different to pursuing, and that is plain old fashioned pursuit. I would refer you to the lighthouse story that Job has posted in the homework.

This is hard stuff bud and you're, sadly, only just starting down the path (I know, it feels like it's been ages already), but you have to keep plugging to the original advice you've been given, otherwise, as you have seen, you're best intentions fall flat.

Hi Andrew.

I enjoyed reading your catch up post as I've been wondering what you have been up to. I'm glad to see that you're taking steps to plan for the future, even though it's not what you want. I hope it's ok that I'm replying to your post. I enjoy interacting with you and hope to help you out along the way, if possible.

"I took the opportunity to talk to the L as well about the possibility that W could just be waiting out the clock for a year to separate. His response was "it doesn't work that way", especially since I had earlier commented that I wanted her to come back and that I felt the current physical separation was temporary (that resets the separation clock). "

This is interesting. I was thinking that your W is waiting out the clock to file for D after a year so that her affair can remain a secret. How does it work since it doesn't work this way? Does she have to file something legally to start the clock?

I remember the days I spent in limbo-land. Far too many. I think that was the worst part of the whole thing.

I hope you're able to find your love for cooking once again. It sounds like you have plenty of meat choices!! I plan to cook more now that it's getting cooler. My family seems to really enjoy the chicken and dumplings that I make. It was XH's favorite, so I stopped making it for several years.

my answers to your questions that you asked yourself:
Will this have an impact on W? Probably not.
Will it drive her farther away? Not sure this is even possible.
Will it cause her to reconsider me as an option? Doubtful. She already knew everything you told her, before you told her.

I completely understand why you sent those messages. I'm positive that I sent worse messages in my experience. I'm a good example of what NOT to do! ha. As I said earlier, limbo-land is awful, but you appear to be handling things OK. I am really glad that you're seeking legal advice and making those changes with your will and estate.

I'm proud of your progress... even though you did slip up, but we all do. It's time to get back on track and continue marching forward, as you have been.

Huddy / dream - thank you so much for the visit and comments. Yes - I know that in some ways that this is still "starting out" but lord above - it feels like forever. Thanks for understanding how difficult it is dealing with the uncertainty and silence. The echo of uncertainty in me amplifies it I think.

Originally Posted By: dream

Hi Andrew.

I do try to welcome all visitors - despite being testy a few days ago and yelling "get off my lawn" at people

You particularly are very welcome. You've talked me back from the ledge more than once. I hope the others come to call again in time while I try to work on my Carl Fredricksen (UP movie) tendencies.

Originally Posted By: dream

"I took the opportunity to talk to the L as well about the possibility that W could just be waiting out the clock for a year to separate. His response was "it doesn't work that way", especially since I had earlier commented that I wanted her to come back and that I felt the current physical separation was temporary (that resets the separation clock). "

This is interesting. I was thinking that your W is waiting out the clock to file for D after a year so that her affair can remain a secret. How does it work since it doesn't work this way? Does she have to file something legally to start the clock?

No - there is no formal action that "starts of the clock" legally speaking here in Ontario, Canada however if you read the law carefully it does state that the separation has to be "for the purpose of ending the marriage" and I believe that has to be the intention of both parties. I'm not a lawyer though and would want to confirm this fact before actually acting on it. I believe that W is indeed completely paranoid about people finding out about the A still and suspect (mind reading!) that her fear of my reaction is keeping her from being more public about us being separated. On the other hand, she IS a very private person and would hate to have people asking questions about her personal life which would happen if she were more open about it. I really can't know what her motivations are or what she knows. I expect that she's not done anywhere near the level of research that I have done and is probably relying on the opinions of friends and family. That presumes that she's even thinking down the path of a divorce. Again - I don't know and there's no way for me to know. I wish I did though. If she would tell me for example that our M is over and that she wants a D and wants to start seeing OM publicly I would let her go if that was what would make her happy. I've told her from the beginning that all I want is for her to be happy but that I would prefer for her to be happy with me. I have seen paranoid activities from her in the month or so pre BD that got a "lot" worse post BD even though I've done everything in my power to be open, honest and transparent with her. Perhaps related to her depression, hormone flucations, MLC? No clue. Prior to this I believe that she completely trusted me and showed no paranoid tendencies at all towards anyone.

Originally Posted By: dream

I remember the days I spent in limbo-land. Far too many. I think that was the worst part of the whole thing.

Limbo would be fine if there were dancing I suppose

I'm interested to hear your own story when you are ready to tell it. It helps in my case that I have no direct knowledge of what W may be up to with OM etc or the state of that relationship and I try hard not to dwell on it. Even if that were to end, she still has a long journey and a lot of decisions to make before she turns towards me - if she ever does. I feel quite selfish thinking about not waiting for her and finding someone new. I had a lengthy conversation with SIL1 this morning where she kept repeating that I "deserved" better than what I'm getting. I on the other hand try to accept what is put in front of me because I've always believed the world isn't fair and people don't get what they "deserve". Not even people in love.

Originally Posted By: dream

I hope you're able to find your love for cooking once again. It sounds like you have plenty of meat choices!! I plan to cook more now that it's getting cooler. My family seems to really enjoy the chicken and dumplings that I make. It was XH's favorite, so I stopped making it for several years.

One of my favourites that I made a week or so ago is creamy tomato soup with grilled cheese sandwiches. Simple comfort food that W would make from time to time and I loved. As a single guy who is not wanting to put back on the weight he lost I try to watch portion sizes and with my schedule I often only cook evening meals 2 nights a week. Breakfasts and lunches are pretty much the same each day. I have some cookbooks from when I was single about cooking for one. Perhaps when the winter settles in I'll start cooking more.

Originally Posted By: dream

my answers to your questions that you asked yourself:
Will this have an impact on W? Probably not.
Will it drive her farther away? Not sure this is even possible.
Will it cause her to reconsider me as an option? Doubtful. She already knew everything you told her, before you told her.

I tend to agree with you. In hindsight this was probably more about me and releasing the need to talk to her and beg her to come home than in actually affecting her. I had sent her a text earlier in the day (the first since August) passing on a phone message and she responded immediately - as she did to the first text in this sequence. It made me perhaps subconsciously think that we might actually have a conversion. Even during our "good" times though we never had R talks. Whenever I would try she would loudly and aggressively change the subject. We'll have to learn how to have those talks if she ever does come back.

Originally Posted By: dream

I'm proud of your progress... even though you did slip up, but we all do. It's time to get back on track and continue marching forward, as you have been.

Thanks so much dream. As I used to say at the beginning of this journey - and I hope you'll pardon the language - Chest Out, B@lls down and swinging

Andrew,

You've been a busy man this week. I always hated having to deal w/estate issues, but it's something you have to do, especially if you think the separation is going to lead to a divorce. Be sure to do a living will, if you haven't thought about it.

As for emailing/testing your wife, I know you felt that you had the need to do so. She knows that you love her very deeply and you don't need to remind her of that. The best thing that you can do right now is to let her go in a loving manner and only contact her if there is an emergency. She knows where you are and when she's ready, she'll contact you. When she does, be civil and kind to her. Listen to what she has to say and follow her lead. Compassion is the key when contact is made. As another pointed out, you don't want to come across as pursuing her. The more you pursue, the harder she's going to go the other way. I think you got her message loud and clear when she didn't respond back.

Andrew, it's one step forward, two steps back. We all learn to let go, let God (detaching), on our own time schedule. You'll get it as you continue on your own life's path.

BTW, you've got a lot of food in the house and won't have to do a lot of shopping any time soon. With winter coming, you'll have plenty of time to try new recipes and your son will enjoy them as well. Your cats just might get a nibble or two as well.

I want to encourage you to keep the focus on you and try not to be tempted to hit the send button again when thinking of contacting your wife. Trust me, she knows where you are and knows that you still love her...give her the time and space to figure things out. Okay? Trust the system, it does work.

Take care.

Originally Posted By: job

Be sure to do a living will, if you haven't thought about it.

My brothers will be getting "power of attorney" over both medical and financial decisions if I get incapacitated. I'll read up on "living wills" and make sure that my choices for end of life care are communicated - which is what I believe to be what a living will is (?)

Originally Posted By: job

Trust the system, it does work.

Take care.

Thanks job - your calming voice has kept me on the path before and I will try to trust the system - even if it's a system that I don't fully understand. Going back to some excellent advice that Jack_3_Beans gave me some time ago - I need to find fuel to throw on to power me to keep standing. Recent set-backs that caused me to doubt my own self-worth and suitability to be a partner for anyone have made finding that fuel difficult. I am working on finding the pride and confidence I had in myself again which was one of the better fuels in knowing that I am W's "ONE best choice". Perhaps I'll spend some time this weekend looking at old photo albums and remembering. Any other ideas that don't involve me getting arrested looking in W's window would be welcome

Andrew,

Take a look around you...you can build your confidence up again just by looking at your home, your children and the life you have built over the years. Do not allow your wife or others to rattle your confidence. Sure, you get knocked down every once in a while, but you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and you continue working on you and moving forward.

You have so much to be proud of in how you've handled yourself and your life thus far. Your wife is a complete and utter fool if she can't see what a stand up guy you are.

Don't let anyone see you sweat! You've got this. Use the tools that have been provided to you and definitely trust the system. You've got to have faith and respect in yourself before others will do so.

Come on! You've got this!

Hi Andrew. You seem to be asking for answers and as I wrote to you that I wouldnt respond I am not sure what to do.

But you are here and I have been here a long time so I am just going to write a bit.

I know that all of this seems counterintuitive. You feel as most do in the beginning that if you could just find the right words, your wife will change her mind. I am afraid it doesnt work that way.

You see, when you say the things you do, she feels unheard. That frustrates and upsets them. They want desperately for you to hear them. Because in their mind, we are the problem. If they can just get rid of us, they think they will then be happy.

So that the more you keep trying to hold onto her, the more she is going to try to get away. Thus my holding onto the pants leg story. Imagine someone is holding onto your pantsleg. You want them off, so you shake your leg, which causes them to hold on tighter. Which causes you to try to shake them off harder...and round and round you go.

She cant move forward, while looking over her shoulder at you. And moving forward is what you want...for her and for you. This way she can figure her stuff out. And she can do that better without hearing the way you feel.

Ok, so, you told her you love her...she heard it. No need to say that again, right?

I think you are getting a little ahead of yourself in terms of how you will feel in the coming months. It's best not to anticipate it until it happens.

And I wouldnt speak with your son about you or his mom dating. You are nowhere near ready (you are still legally married) and that isnt something he needs to worry about right now.

Be very careful with your words to him. He is hurting, too.

Andrew, this is hard stuff and you are so early into it. Just try really hard not to get ahead of yourself, ok?

One day at a time.

Hi Andrew,

I just caught up with your thread, and even though I don't have anything completely new to add, I wanted to say that even if contacting your W was a mistake, you can still learn from it. You can use that example every time you think about initiating contact in future. The way I see it, if I contact H about R talks, I WILL get hurt. I will allow H to hurt me either with his silence or even worse by saying something horrible. So in a way. It will be me causing this. He asked out. I can DB all I want, but I can not expect replies or anything from him at this moment in time... Or for the foreseeable future!

Andrew,

Please read uRworthy's post again and again.

This is your guide at this point in the process. I promise you things will get better for you but you need to live your journey and let her live hers.

I am a success in my life. I feel it, I know it and I lived it. I'm approx 7 years post bomb day and my life couldn't be better. My life not my EXW.

Hang in there.

Mirage

Thank you everyone for the encouraging words.

As I progress along this journey I can't help but feel that I am going farther away from my W and she from me. Yes, I know that is in many ways healthy for me - but I do feel the loss of something that was such a part of me for more than half of my life.

Oddly, after rattling the outside of the tunnel that W is in for the first time in over 6 months she "liked" a post on Facebook that I was associated with. I'm working hard on not looking at this as a "sign" since the post was first put up by D24 (being excited about cookies I mailed her - see doodler? Cookies "can" be mailed). W has been appearing to interact and connect with D24 more and more on Facebook than she has in the past.

urWorthy - I'm trying to wrap my head around what you wrote even if in some ways it does make sense. I don't understand how W could feel that she's not been "heard" since she doesn't speak to me in words or in actions especially since BD. She's (appears) to be so wrapped up in her own world that I think I probably don't even exist to her. The clinging and her trying to escape imagery I believe I get and am guilty as charged. I could plead that this is only the 2nd time since she moved out but pleading doesn't remove the guilt. I do understand though about her (and I) needing to move forward. There is no moving back. That's not the way that the world works (skipping long note about my personal philosophies). I do continue to hope that she'll move forward and circle to see me shining as a lighthouse for her and for myself.

My fear - and yes I still have buckets of fear - is that if she looks back and sees me be fine then she can use that to justify her choice to leave - "he didn't need me anyway". Pre and post BD1 she was pushing me to find someone new because she would say that she "wasn't good enough" for me.

When I first learned to ride a bicycle I fell off a "lot" of times. I clearly remember one episode where one of the bikes that I had got working (I think I was about 7 or 8) by piecing together several non-working bicycles ended up not having any brakes and I ended up in the manure pile on the farm - at least it was a soft landing

In time, I got quite good at both riding and repairing them including being able to ride with no hands for extended periods.

I've fallen down and skinned my knees. Time to get back up, patch the bike with the parts available to me and get back on the path forward learning from my experience. I have some hard things to do in the next couple of weeks changing my insurance and pension documents - which is slightly against the recommendation of my D lawyer but is in line with the recommendation of my estate lawyer. As I was talking to SIL1 yesterday, this is going to be a long, lonely, dark winter. I need to find a way to shine a light into it.

Thank you everyone.

PS - job - Thanks to you especially for the inspiring words and vote of confidence. You're good at this. Your words brightened my day.

Andrew,

Reading your latest post, I thought I would pass on to you, two quotes that were given to me by a poster named Bworl. I�ve had the pleasure of spending some time with Bworl and he is really just an amazing human being. If you are interested in reading other posters � I would suggest that you read his story and some of the posts that he provided other with.

Anyhoo�.here are the two quotes. I hope in some small way they can help.

Quote:

Posted by Bworl to ericmsant2�..

Aren�t you here to save your marriage?

Of course the answer technically is yes. But all of us, and we men especially, have to learn quickly that stopping a divorce is not a direct set of actions.

Divorcebusting is indirect.

You've heard or read possibly experienced people here say that db'ing is counter-intuitive, meaning simply that it goes almost directly opposite of what our intincts tell us to do.

You have to find a way to stop approaching this like a man trying to figure out how to fix a leaking faucet. It's just not going to work well with that kind of approach.

Quote:

Posted by Bworl to ericmsant2�..

At this point you're probably wondering, "So what the hell AM I supposed to do to save my marriage?"

The answer is to let it go.

You know, drop the rope?

I used a bad analogy one time of being out walking your beloved dog (with a SUPER LONG leash so that the story makes sense), who at some point wanders off and gets lost.

You realize your dog has disappeared and you worry. At some point your dog realizes that she has wandered too far off and starts to worry. But along the way she has wrapped that leash in and out of all kinds of things.

You're now pulling with all your might trying to get your pooch back.

Your dog is also straining at the leash trying to get back to you.

But there are far too many tangles to ever let that happen.

So how do you eventually get her back?

You let go of the leash...

Letting go makes it possible for her to come back to you.

The fear that you have that �she may not need you� � is just that FEAR. The other thing I would suggest that you consider�is �.would you prefer she come back to you based on her choice and love for you vs. the fear of not being with your or the convenience of being with you. Whichever you choose, structure your approach accordingly.

Have a great weekend Andrew.

Thanks eric. I've read the dog walking story before - not sure where though. As you should know by now, I am addicted to super-bad analogies and write a lot of them myself. Riding my bike into a manure pile is only the latest iteration

When I first joined the board and for a long time thereafter I did spend a lot of time combing past threads and reading people's stories. I must confess that as I am healing and rediscovering the world outside my pain that I dig in to those histories less and less so I'm not very familiar with Bworl's journey. I may have to take some time and look it up.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

This I think is the absolute key to my struggle. Intellectually I only want her to come back because it is her choice and that she recognizes me as her "one best option". I don't want her back because she feels sorry for me, out of pity, or out of guilt. That won't be the basis for a stronger, better MR that I want. Inside me though is still the lost, scared man who just cries in the night "make it not have happened". He gets out sometimes and I know that he's always there in the shadows. Knowing this (and other dark parts of my insides) I feel helps me stay on the system. Knowing that it was because of this fear and trying to face this fear as I believe you are suggesting is part of being strong enough to carry on. Even after now almost 8 months it is still just one day at a time. When I fall off the bike I try to look hard at why it happened and will usually confess and dig into that here. But I'm back up on 2 wheels again I think - for now. I now know of this particular bump and know that I'll see it again because for all my bluster and bravado

I do still have and will always have fear and insecurities. I am after all human.

One part of the "system" that we have here that is good for me is the focus on the "self". While I'm not a huge embracer of the "self improvement" part

I "am" a big believer in self-love. I continue to work on that and am getting better at it almost every day. I am confident that my W knows that I've grown and that I'm managing pretty darned good on my own. My physical health and attractiveness hasn't been better for probably 20 years. She sees that I am managing our home and finances quite well on my own and that I'm building my life and friendships outside of her.

We used to joke for a long time that the three words that "saved our marriage" were "have fun dear" because we did lead such independent lives - easier to do with kids I suppose. Will that result in a better AndrewP at the end of the journey? Absolutely. Will it result in an AndrewP who has reunited with his W? No clue - but I do hope so. As job pointed out - "trust the system".

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

Have a great weekend Andrew.

Thanks eric. I'm picking up some replacement furniture after work today. Having only one bedside table looks weird and I don't really like what we had so I'm getting some new ones. Errands, laundry, gardening plus probably a hike are on the agenda.

How about yourself? I hope that you won't be skulking around here too much even though we all do appreciate your visits. There's a bright world out there for all of us.

Hey Andrew, just catching up with your thread.

I was impressed that you found a topic to start some communication with your W after all this time. I thought you were doing really well with some friendly conversation until you started on the mushy stuff and then she shut down! So now you know mushy stuff is out and friendly neighbour seems to work.

I also had the itchy texting finger for a few days but I rode it out and managed to get through without contacting H. It's his birthday tomorrow so I will drop him a happy birthday text but I'm not expecting much back from him. Come on Andrew we can do this!!!

Andrew - like you I remember feeling at a loss when I recognized that my h and I were drifting apart. But, then I read that in MLC, spouses MUST drift apart. MLC spouse will regress and the LBS (who is not regressing) will no longer be able to meet the immature emotional needs of MLC spouse (who is operating full tilt on emotions, zero logic). This is replay.

As for you being worried that if you seem just fine your wife may think you have forgotten her, I was concerned about that as well. But, I did some reading on that, too (I spent years combing everywhere for more info on MLC). It's counterintuitive at first, but it actually makes sense if you really think about it.

Put another way: if the MLC spouse looks back at the LBS and LBS is a mess/lost, then they MLC spouse feels A OK in comparison; LBS seems weak, so MLC spouse seems strong. If you get all mushy/pursue them, well, because they are so removed from the marriage (this started years ago!), the MLC spouse grows more sure of their current feelings. (This is the pulling on the pant leg scenario that Urworthy describes.)

However, if you can work really hard to strengthen yourself (for YOU) and your spouse happens to take notice, the MLC spouse may finally begin to sense that something is wrong within her. After all, you seem great and below the surface, she doesn't truly feel that way. So this probably makes her question why she doesn't feel so great. (So she may go and try more band-AIDS.). But, you need to make the changes within you real and for you! You have to like who you are/who you are becoming. This takes tremendous work and time. And you have to heal up, too.

One last thing. If you happen to run into your w again, my advice? Square your shoulders, look her in the eye and smile. Ask how she is. And then wish her a good day and walk right on by, with a positive attitude. You didn't do a thing wrong. Don't let yourself feel like you did.

Originally Posted By: Esame

The way I see it, if I contact H about R talks, I WILL get hurt. I will allow H to hurt me either with his silence or even worse by saying something horrible. So in a way. It will be me causing this.

I have come to the conclusion that relationship talks are just giving them an opportunity to think about getting out of the relationship, or to suggest that you should end the relationship. It's like dangling a poisoned piece of meat in front of a dog. They'll eat it, but then the dog is dead. Had to throw in a dog metaphor there!

You can't save your relationship by talking about it. Instead, you have to act out the greatest relationship you can manage, or as some say be someone they would be a fool to leave, as actions speak louder than words.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

If you wish to reach out to me outside of this place I can open a window to a room where I can be found.

....

In absolutes, know that I am the snake not far from the plane wreck.

Coly23 / HaWho / 2Lady and of course CT1118 - thank you for visiting and your supportive comments.

In the last couple of days I've gained in strength I think. I've been able to deal with some things in recent days that would have caused me great problems even a month ago. I was in my corporate office yesterday which I haven't visited for months. A number of the people in the "C-suite" are people I've known for years as they've moved through the organization and we've maintained a work appropriate friendship. My own role is one step on the ladder below them. They all are very worried about me I think. The person I report to was very concerned about my health and pestered me quite a bit especially since there was a fire drill that required me to go down 13 flights of stairs. He also pestered me a bit about my eating and general health. I was able to deflect most of his questions and assure him that my physical health was pretty good but that it was an issue with appetite. In the afternoon another person from that level stopped by my office for a visit. Regular pleasantries were exchanged and despite my efforts to deflect the conversation she started asking about my family. First D24, then S22, then about W. She was concerned but understanding when I said that "it's complicated" and "I'd rather not talk about it" and changed the subject. It was a bit awkward because after some other small talk she just sat there I think burning to ask more and I ended up suggesting that there were some things I needed to take care of and she went back to her own office. I made sure to stop by when I left and do the usual goodbye I would do for her.

So - the executive team knows now that I'm physically fine but having marital problems. Fortunately this is a very "humane" company to work for and I expect no fall-out. I suppose I could have lied and made up some sort of story about how W was doing fine but I just can't bring myself to lie.

Unsurprisingly no news of any substance from W. Her Facebook feed continues quiet but with a decrease in activity and a bump up in the "I'm depressed and confused" posts. She hasn't checked my Snapchat feed for a few days and is missing out on lots of pictures of the cats which I send to S22 (they're his cats) and D24 (who loves cats) and my story so they can look at them again if they wish. The SIL army has been active in the last week or so sending me messages of support. I wish they could be a bit more practical in some of their support by offering me a cuppa and such but they are all pretty busy with their own lives.

Time to get out of my PJs now I think, put on my sparkle and get my errands done. The lady who runs the bake-shop has been sick for the last couple of weeks but is now back and I can get my fresh scone for my lunch today again finally. The weather is fair and I can hang my laundry out to dry and I have the new night-stands for the MBR from Ikea to assemble. It will be nice to have a pair of them again - it looked so odd with the big empty space on the other side of the bed where W's nightstand used to be.

PS - CT1118 - thanks but I think that my spirit is now back in my body and doesn't need to fly free. The rose is doing the best she can without her glass cover I think. She does have 4 thorns.

Hi - my name is AndrewP and I am a lousy DBer.

Actually I think I'm not doing too bad. Additional confession time. In addition to the text begging and pleading with W to come back that I admitted to earlier (dead silence) I did reach out to her for some other things that were not R related at all in the same few days.
- I sent her a Facebook Messenger message asking if she had a copy of a recipe I wanted - immediate response that she would look but I had also contacted D24 and she found it easily. Responded to W with a "thanks - got it". I was surprised at the quick polite turnaround.
- W has a very unique vehicle. I saw another of the same year, make, model, colour in a local parking lot. Sent W and the kids a SnapChat picture. W opened it within minutes. No response expected or received. She always talked about how unique her car was and was always happy to see one similar. Seeing one that was nearly an exact match I hope brightened her day.
- Sent W an email asking her to make a charitable donation to a cause both of us believe in and that she volunteers to that has just started their campaign. I referenced "family money" and how I had always relied on her in the past to take care of these things (which is true). I also used the word Please. 3 days later a polite but brief message saying that she would take care of it. No mention of "our money" being used or if I'll see the tax receipt. I'm glad that this cause is being supported though. I honestly expected no response at all although I did hope for the response I got. A bit warmer one would have been nice but wasn't expected.

Since then I've gone quiet again. I realized early this morning why W possibly hasn't been lurking on my SnapChat stories. I accidentally had the person I had "not" wanted to see the stories (a friend of S22) be the only one who could. Switches were set backwards - no harm done though. I snapped a picture this morning of the MBR including the new bedside tables with a comment about the new furniture generically aimed towards anyone. W saw it within a couple of hours so she's still stalking me there. I need to continue to be careful about what I post. Rightly or wrongly I look at this as a chance to let W know that everything at home is fine, that I haven't found someone new and that I'm doing reasonably OK on my own. It's up to her if she looks, I'm not pushing it on her. She actually has to go out of her way to look in fact.

So - while I've gone dark again except for those bits that W seeks out I'm wondering if I should perhaps reach out to her every week or so about something generic. There are actually lots of things I would like her advice on that I've been trying to figure out for myself. From the evidence of her Facebook feed her social circle has shrunk but she's still taking notice of the sports team that OM is keen on and she didn't care about before so I presume that OM is still in the picture. Plan A is to resume the complete quiet and let her see me getting along relatively OK via SnapChat, Facebook and when she drives by the house.

In other related news I have all the forms filled out to change the beneficiary on my insurance and pensions. I'll be sending them in tomorrow. I talked to both S22 and D24 about what I'm doing and why and they agree. I told them that I wasn't going to go out of my way to let W know but that if she asked them that it OK to tell her whatever she wants to know. I will have no secrets from her but that doesn't mean that she needs as frequent and detailed of updates as what I write here. My will should be done in the next week or so and there might be a question from W about the L bill. Or perhaps not. I'm waffling about putting into our books as "L fees" and be mysterious or putting it in as "L Fees - will and power of attorney". I'm figuring on the second - again being open, honest and transparent. If she wants to see the contents of those documents though I'm planning on starting with a gentle refusal. I put her asking for that at an incredibly low chance anyway.

On my drive home last night I had a great 2 hour Skype call with D24 (hands free of course). She's doing pretty well and settling into her new home. We talked about all sort of things but a bit to my surprise we did talk about my situation and W a bit. I had somewhat expected her to tell me that I was crossing a boundary and I would have stopped. I didn't press but the indication that I've gotten is that she's not heard anything from W since July when W called her to tell her she's moved out. I can't say as I'm too shocked. D24 also mentioned that after she had a problem with her SnapChat account and set up a new one and re-added W that she never got added by W. Which means that possibly the only reason W checks SnapChat is to watch me. Even pre BD W always expected to be the one to be called and when she left she said she was leaving to escape the "noise" implying that she didn't want to be contacted by anybody. D24 is also going to go over all the other documents related to the estate and my living will etc and make sure that she understands what my wishes are and will make suggestions to make things clear. So much easier to do this while still alive. My eldest brother got slightly snippy at me for planning all this out because he doesn't see the purpose behind it (no kids - plans to live forever) but I and S22/D24 I think feel better knowing that everything is neatly organized.

On the AndrewP possibly doing something stupid or possibly not world but trying to have a life area I had a very nice chat with the lady at the flower shop last Saturday. We're now on a first name basis. Being as I in some ways want to generate a bit of interest I don't wear my wedding ring when I go in to that shop and haven't for a few weeks. In a funny way she's stopped wearing the fake sort of ring that some women do and started wearing more realistic ones - possibly real. In any conversation there's no mention of her having a significant other - he's conspicuous by his absence in fact. There's not difference in the conversation despite the ambiguity about marital status which is nice. I'm not necessarily on the hunt and she's a really nice person who I'm starting to like. Regardless of what happens in the future she may become a friend.

Anyhoodles - that's about it for now. Probably keep with the fairly sparse updates unless something happens which is pretty darned unlikely. I think my situation is getting ready to hibernate over the winter.

Thanks for reading everyone!

A few thoughts:

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

While we were out I asked him what his thoughts were on me dating.

So what are your thoughts on dating?

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I hope you know that you can walk right back into our home and my arms any time.

If you dont want to be treated as Plan B, why are you still allowing yourself to act as Plan B?

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I am working on finding the pride and confidence I had in myself again which was one of the better fuels in knowing that I am W's "ONE best choice". Perhaps I'll spend some time this weekend looking at old photo albums and remembering. Any other ideas that don't involve me getting arrested looking in W's window would be welcome

Yes. GAL The sh!t out of life. Thats how you can gain confidence!

Originally Posted By: AndrewP from lostasf's thread

For the rest of the world I feel that I have to put on a bit of an act which is tough when you are hurting inside so badly.

Saw this as well the other day and thought Id ask.

What act, exactly, are you putting on? Just that W is maybe with OM? I imagine by now most know shes moved out, right? Sorry for being hard-headed, but Im interested to hear again your take on this.

darnkes - Thanks for the visit and the insightful questions.

Originally Posted By: darknes

So what are your thoughts on dating?

I'm definitely not ready right now. Presuming that W doesn't come back by March/April I may be by then. Reality does happen though and while I'm not open to it at the present things might happen.

Originally Posted By: darknes

If you dont want to be treated as Plan B, why are you still allowing yourself to act as Plan B?

Always a difficult thing for me on those rare times when I'm communicating with W - twice since she's left that I've mentioned our R at all. I'd probably be better off chugging down some STFU. To be frank I'm afraid of making it look like the path home is too hard and by overcompensating on that am perhaps making it look too easy. She's still not seeming to take any steps on it though. I might dispute (and also be wrong) that I'm acting as a Plan B. The only way that I would accept W back is that if she decided for herself that I am her ONE BEST CHOICE and that she was willing along with me to do the hard work necessary. It's much too early to be communicating that to her in any way shape or form though I think. I have to wait for the squirrel to come out of the tunnel before I can try to teach it any tricks

Originally Posted By: darknes

Yes. GAL The sh!t out of life. Thats how you can gain confidence!

Each to their own on that. I'm working on loving the man I see in the mirror which is what works for me. He gets out and about and does his own thing more and more as time goes by. I believe that it was you that wrote the accurate insight that I've gone from waiting by the door to sitting in the next room reading a book. I'm almost to the stage where I'm out and about doing my own thing and she has to find me. Not quite there yet.

Originally Posted By: darknes

Originally Posted By: AndrewP from lostasf's thread

For the rest of the world I feel that I have to put on a bit of an act which is tough when you are hurting inside so badly.

It's a graduated scale.

- I have maybe 6 or 7 people who are very dear friends and / or close family members who know everything and I can talk openly about everything with them.

- S22/D24 know about everything except the A and OM (I believe). I can talk openly to them about pretty much everything except anything to do with the A / OM.

- There are about 3 people in the village plus the lady I buy my flowers from that I've talked to about W leaving to whom I can talk about my "adventures in housekeeping" as I call it. To go back to your first question the lady at the flower shop is a potential dating candidate but she knows this is new hurt for me even after 8 months and I'm slowly getting to know her as a friend. You can't blame a man for thinking fondly about a tall blonde lady with bright blue eyes and a charming shy smile who is also kind but also rather reserved around me.

- I would guess that about 25% of the people in my village know and if we are passing the time of the day I say nothing unless they do the concerned version "how are you" to which I usually answer "One day at a time". That number may be higher if you count people who have heard rumours but don't have facts. W herself is keeping things "very" quiet as far as I know.

- People that W has talked to about leaving have been (in some cases literally) crossing the street to avoid me so there's little or no conversation there. They do still see me wearing my wedding ring, not dating and taking care of our home and grounds.

- For the rest of the world including social media I am married, don't mention anything about W - including to close mutual friends. I wear my wedding ring, don't talk about my personal life and avoid any conversations that might go anywhere towards my marital status. The greater bulk of the people I interact with daily have no clue that anything is amiss and I intend to keep it that way both because it is a very private matter and to also not cause stress for W. I've told W that it's her story to tell and not mine. Things I used to talk about regularly about how great W is and what she's accomplished, the great care she takes of me or the fun we've had together have completely dropped out of my conversations and anything I post on social media. In some ways I'm dreading Christmas because a lot of S22's friends usually just stop in for a visit whether he's here or not and I'll have to explain that W isn't living here anymore and that they need to keep it quiet.

On the other side of this, if I were more open about W leaving and the fact that it was for her own reasons and that to the best of my knowledge that I did nothing that caused her grief or wanting to leave then I would get more support and sympathy from friends, neighbours and acquaintances. I'd also get people trying to set me up with their sisters and cause noise and grief for W along with people prying for details out of genuine concern and general nosiness. Working from the assumption that she is having a MLC and is suffering from confusion and depression, according to the advice I've gotten here and from what she's asked for, and from what I feel in my own heart the best thing I can do for her is to leave her to quietly complete her own journey for as long as I'm able to keep standing.

Even though I'm an introvert I - like D24 am a very "public" person and not a shy quiet person at all. We just don't like crowds. W on the other hand although an extrovert who likes being around groups of people but is an extremely private person. So out of respect for her privacy as well I'm keeping the lid on things.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Originally Posted By: darknes

If you dont want to be treated as Plan B, why are you still allowing yourself to act as Plan B?

I for one know how hard it is to STFU. I told my ex everything on my mind. Mostly because it was years of pent up anger towards him. Anyways, it really is the best approach.

In on breath you say "know you can come back home into my arms at anytime"

Well you dispute being plan B by saying you would only take her back if you are "her one best choice" and committed to making the marriage work. Well, that's not "anytime" so it's better off not saying anything as that is pretty contradictory.

Like I said, being silent is hard regarding the R is very hard. But it's a must right now.

Well - this was unexpected.

About a week ago when I was in a chatty mood after multiple months of silence I reached out to W looking for a recipe. She said she'd look for it, I got it from D24 and sent W a "don't bother but thanks" note.

First keep in mind that W is what another forum calls a "vanisher". After she left she never reached out to me for any reason and never came back into our home even though she passes right by it regularly. Possibly the new security cameras have her spooked(?) Even before she left there was practically no contact to me from her after BD2 when she'd written me out of her life (mind reading!).

This morning as I was getting ready for work I got a Messenger note from W. For context here's the conversation edited for brevity. Also keep in mind that W and her brother semi-randomly stripped the house when she moved out including most of the cookbooks.

And yes - before you comment - perhaps I should have avoided the "R" mention but I thought it appropriate in this context.

Quote:

W - I don't have the cookbook with the [comfort food] recipe. It is in [blah blah blah]. I thought I had brought it, but I would like it, please. Once you find the recipe

AP - K. I'll have a look maybe this weekend. I can scan and email it to you if you like.

W - I would like the cook book.

AP - You have a key. This is your home. I put many of the cookbooks and stuff into boxes in the front porch. Or you could just come back and we could be a family again.

AP - BTW - I don't know if you check my Google calendar but I am working from home Friday.

<crickets>

So - did the squirrel pop it's head out? Will she actually come into the house and get her crap that has been obviously boxed up for months? What the heck was she thinking that I would do? That I would go through the cookbooks for this particular recipe and deliver that one book to her where-ever she is living? (She never told me where she is) all the while keeping and preserving her stuff as a shrine to her past presence? I did say that I would treat it with care and respect but I did also ask her for boxes (which she never delivered).

I think I handled this OK but there are often opinions. This is the first time in over 3 months that she's shown any interest in what she left behind. This follows my poking into her squirrel tunnel last week which I thought that my well intentioned begging had her bedded down in for the winter. I don't think she's noticed me updating my will - the cheque hasn't cleared the bank but she might have seen a reference in our books.

The intention of my response was to point out to her that she can get her own stuff whenever she likes and that I'm not going through it at her whim mining out whatever she might be interested in that day enabling her living in her hidey hole. It was also to point out that I have not blocked her out of the house at all but that I have packed up a bunch of her stuff for her to remove.

She's working today until about 2:00 and will have about 5 hours before I get home to go in and out of the house at will. I told her that I would be home tomorrow in case she thought of coming in then but didn't want to encounter me.

If she does come into the house she'll quite possibly be rather surprised at it. It certainly is a lot cleaner and tidier now (doubt she'll notice that). A lot of the clutter and stuff that she left behind is now in the front porch boxes and other than the pictures on the wall and a bit of decorating that is rather feminine it's pretty obviously a house of a single guy who expects to be single except possibly in the MBR which now again has the furniture in it for two.

Will she come to the house? My money is on no. Is she waking up from the fog? No clue. I did make sure that all the cameras were working and recording before I left including the one in the office that is pointed at the filing cabinet.

One thing that I'm really proud of is that the bulk of my reaction to this exchange is meh. I may sound excited and bewildered here but it's a small portion of the emotions I am feeling. Even a month ago I would have been stressed beyond belief and my mind would have been racing with all sort of scenarios, speculation and mind-reading. Today my biggest feeling is a bit of hope that she'll actually pick up the stuff I've boxed up plus her winter coats from the front hall. It's only about 1 load for her car.

We'll see what the squirrel does - if it does any tricks I'll update here but again - I'm figuring she's gone back into her tunnel when I didn't fall over myself to satisfy her whim.

job often mentions that the MLCer will expect the world they left behind to stand still. Perhaps W will see that I haven't.

Lets use the squirrel analogy. The squirrel pops its head out.

We try not to scare the squirrel back into the hole.

What line in your interaction do you think made that squirrel go back into the hole and not want to come back out right now?

I'm glad it didn't make you spin. That's a great improvement.

But you've got to stop dropping those "come home and be a family" bombs. Away goes the squirrel.........

A little story.

I am a nurse and I worked closely with respiratory therapy in the ICU. I became good friends with one of the RT's. He had a crush on me. He was truly the nicest guy in the world, and treated me the way a woman is supposed to be treated. I wasn't attracted to him in that way, and we met right before my H left. I was a married pregnant woman when he started.

I would feel so uncomfortable and guilty when he dropped the dating hints and I would back away because I didn't know how to handle the situation. This squirrel would go back into her hole.

She's not feeling it right now so those constant reminders are making her uncomfortable and wanting to retreat. She just wants a cookbook right now. Everything you said MINUS that line was great. That line most likely caused her discomfort and people are going to go where they aren't comfortable.

Yes. It seems like the DB response would have been, "I think I'll have time to look for it this weekend. I'll let you know if I find it."

and maybe "I don't know if you check my google calendar"---- that's fishing to see if shes been paying attention to you. And it's not subtle.

"I'm working from home on Friday" That's all!

Keep it short, sweet, and that's what will help her realize that the world didn't stop moving.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Originally Posted By: darknes

If you dont want to be treated as Plan B, why are you still allowing yourself to act as Plan B?

The only way that I would accept W back is that if she decided for herself that I am her ONE BEST CHOICE and that she was willing along with me to do the hard work necessary.

In on breath you say "know you can come back home into my arms at anytime"

Exactly this line and this point from Ginger.

If you tell her and tell yourself that it's OK for her to come back into your arms at any time, then you are treating yourself as if you are plan B.

Im not trying to be judgmental or critical. My point is more that if W believes that you are always willing to be Plan B, then there is no incentive for her to prioritize coming back to you. She will try every other avenue available, and would only come running once its clear that it benefits HER.

Andrew,

Please, please stop telling your wife that she can come back home into your arms at any time. She already knows that you love her and want her back. The more you say this, the more determined she's going to be to pull away. You do not want to be Plan B. You want to be Plan A forever and always.

Leave the relationship talks on the table for now and just be friendly/civil.

It's a long, tough road and it's not going to change course any time soon. Dig deeper for patience and keep focusing on you and your children. Leave her in God's hands.

Rose888 / Ginger1 - You are bang on. I do have to work harder on the STFU stuff which fortunately is generally easy because I have practically no interaction with my vanisher MLCer. If there are no words at all it's harder for me to say something stupid

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

and maybe "I don't know if you check my google calendar"---- that's fishing to see if shes been paying attention to you. And it's not subtle.

Just a minor clarification here. I had shared my calendar with her quite a while ago but never bothered to tell her and I believe that she never knew that she could look. This was me letting her know that if she wanted to come to the house and know that I'm not there that I have provided her with a way to do that. Perhaps too subtle? It's also to protect me too. I don't want to have an awkward encounter with her unexpectedly. I doubt I would handle it well. Not with anger or anything but she still has my heart on a string and I still adore her. Absence and distance have helped me a lot but I've still not let her go. Not the easiest conditions under which to move a couple of boxes or look for knickknacks.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Originally Posted By: darknes

Originally Posted By: AndrewP from lostasf's thread

For the rest of the world I feel that I have to put on a bit of an act which is tough when you are hurting inside so badly.

On the other side of this, if I were more open about W leaving and the fact that it was for her own reasons and that to the best of my knowledge that I did nothing that caused her grief or wanting to leave then I would get more support and sympathy from friends, neighbours and acquaintances. I'd also get people trying to set me up with their sisters and cause noise and grief for W along with people prying for details out of genuine concern and general nosiness. Working from the assumption that she is having a MLC and is suffering from confusion and depression, according to the advice I've gotten here and from what she's asked for, and from what I feel in my own heart the best thing I can do for her is to leave her to quietly complete her own journey for as long as I'm able to keep standing.

I think your problem is here in the places Ive bolded.

It isnt best for HER for you two not talk about this so openly, its best for YOU.

For you to be able to grow stronger, the key is for you to take her out of the center of your world. So its better not to be discussing all of the inner details of your marriage. I think it's fine to portray yourself as AndrewP, rather than AndrewP's W's H or Andrew of Mr and Mrs. P.

So, I think for social media and the people you are only associated with, you dont need to talk openly about the details of the demise of your marriage, but I think it's ok to feel confident in just being AndrewP.

Feeling like you are 'hiding' something or 'protecting' something has got to be emotionally exhausting. Id recommend considering how to reframe that in your mind.

darknes / job - thanks as well for the visit.

I was going to ask how I can become her Plan A but I've thought a bit and I think I know what you would say and it jives with some advice that Cat gave a while ago too. It's tough for me to accept and embrace but it seems to be truth.

I become her Plan A when she pursues me. She won't pursue me while I'm chasing after her.

This as well comes into the whole self confidence thing I believe. When I met W all those years ago I had a fair amount of self-confidence but not with women in a romantic way. I was afflicted with what S22 and I jokingly refer to as "nice guy but". As I matured my self confidence also grew but it never had to with regards to my romantic interactions with the opposite sex as I only ever had that with W. Female colleagues were always treated as colleagues first and I remember one woman who worked for me saying that I was "one of the best bosses ever" because she never felt that she was an "object".

W was the dominant one in our R and I felt grateful to have someone so wonderful in my life. I even wrote that to her on June 23rd when I gave her my letter begging her to reconcile. I always though felt nervous in my ability to keep her and tried hard to be the best husband that I could be which leads into this next bit.

A perhaps irrelevant side-bar:
I remember once just before BD I tried to have an R talk with her. She had always been rather controlling of my movements and my interactions with others but it had been ramping up - perhaps because of her A. She also rarely had positive things to say to me but would from time to time point out flaws such as my weight or health (much better now). I was trying to talk to her about the fact that our R bore a strong similarity to that of an abused spouse. Because for our entire MR W refused to talk about anything related to our R that wasn't positive she abruptly changed the subject that day again and I dropped it.

Looking deep within myself today and back into the past especially since BD I can see staring out at me a person who isn't confident that she will pick me. I need to work harder on truly believing what Jack_3_Beans told me that I am W's "one best choice". Intellectually I know that - I need to find a way to put that into my soul and not have to reach out to W and try to drag her back. I need to get the confidence in myself more than intellectually that with or without W that I'll be fine. I'm pretty sure that if W did come back that I would stand up for myself more but I'm not 100% sure.

I do know that I am attractive to women having been told quite a few times that "you'll easily find someone new" - by women who were not in the market

Perhaps with W this is a time for me to work harder on the "fake it until you make it". I'm not sure how I'm going to get there yet. This isn't something that GAL can deal with. I have a session with my IC tomorrow. Perhaps this is something to discuss with her.

I don't know if this aspect of our MR has every come across in my posts before. I know that I've tried to write about it but I don't think that it's been heard.

Hopefully this insight will help those of you reading shape your advice to me. Yes, I can come across as a cocky, confident pompous person but there is also this other side of me too.

Originally Posted By: darknes

For you to be able to grow stronger, the key is for you to take her out of the center of your world. So its better not to be discussing all of the inner details of your marriage. I think it's fine to portray yourself as AndrewP, rather than AndrewP's W's H or Andrew of Mr and Mrs. P.
<snip>
Feeling like you are 'hiding' something or 'protecting' something has got to be emotionally exhausting. Id recommend considering how to reframe that in your mind.

darknes - I was going to let my earlier post stand as an answer to this as well but I wanted to thank you and address this.

I did get emotionally exhausted especially when W was still living at home. eric gave me a good perspective though which is what I try to use - that I'm protecting the MR not W. In my writing though you easily detected that I'm still struggling with that perspective.

Funny(ish) story about being Mr. W - W's uncle - a man both of us greatly admired gave a very funny speech welcoming me to the family where he told me that I was indeed no longer AndrewP but would forever after be known as Mr. W. We all laughed at the time while knowing that it was in fact true. And now I'm here.

d@mn - I wish we had an edit button and now I'm clocking up the post count again.

Before anyone asks, before W I did indeed have a handful girlfriends and had some success in meeting women. They came in 2 categories though. Ones who after 1 date seemed to become obsessed and controlling of me and ones who friend-zoned me. W was in the first category (obviously). Before W there was only 1 who I got to the "meet the parents" stage with but we grew apart soon after in part because of my traveling for business.

Most women that I would try to get to know "that way" would be happy being friends but were never interested in anything more.

I think you should prepare for these interactions ahead of time (ie seeing her on the street and a random text). They will happen so know how you will handle it. I was in your same situation more or less, they happen and it will happen again.

In regards to the text, I won't say anything about the response but give you a simple suggestion. Before responding to her, why not hash it out here first? There is no need for an immediate response, let her wonder a little. Just as an example, on my first temp check, WW said "I keep dreaming about you every night!!". I was ready for it, came here, hashed it out with everyone, got many different opinions and came up with an absolute golden response IMO which was no where near what I had initially thought to do.

Andrew, are you exploring the abuse question in counseling?

Because if you were abused, then I don't want to do anything to encourage you to get back together with your wife.

Domineering is one thing. I think that often the dominated person can change the situation by changing himself or herself.

Abuse is different.

With respect to Jack, I don't think you should try to build up your self esteem by saying you are her best choice. I think you should work on building up your self esteem by giving yourself opportunities to feel accomplished. (This is a great use of GAL.) Your worth is not tied to her.

Originally Posted By: Rose888

Rose888 - Thanks for writing. Whether I was an abused husband or not is a difficult question that I will indeed talk to my IC about because that will impact any future relationships I may have.

Perhaps I was self-abusing? She certainly was controlling and dominant but not domineering if that makes sense. I was trying to explore this a bit because certainly the way that I had to check in / out with her and that she controlled pretty much everything sounded like the acts of the dominant partner in an abusive situation. I didn't "feel" abused. Most of the time I felt loved although often taken for granted and sometimes taken advantage of. Her control over me increased dramatically when her A started which is when I really started to question it. At that time she not only made even more sure she knew where I was for each moment of the day but she also took over our banking saying she was "helping me" by removing an errand that I actually enjoyed (I thanked her and didn't make an issue of it). Previously she would question me in some detail about any female friend or acquaintance I might mention and after the A started she was even more aggressive on that. I still remember clearly explaining that a new Facebook friend was in fact a 72 year old woman with whom I shared a common love of cats and knew from work.

I'm not sure how to explore this in the written word. I know that one very good friend I have had for decades who is the only one that I've talked to about my marriage to that amount felt that I was abused and highly controlled.

Where I think I was trying to go with my post though was that as a generally passive person who was always eager to please and dependent on my W for feelings of self-worth in my marriage I need to find tools to be better able to stand on my own two feet. Outside of my marriage, in "the real world" I do fine and have a lot (W thought too much) confidence in myself. With my W - I was and still am jelly.

Does that make sense?

Ok - I'm going to be good this time and ask for advice before doing anything.

Presuming that W doesn't stop by the house and pick up her recipe book and the related boxes today should I dig it out and arrange to have it sent to her? I pretty much assume that she won't come into the house easily. I actually think she's afraid to. I know the cameras have always freaked her out especially if they record sound. She was always bothered by my dash-cam for example.

Pro - I'm a nice guy.
Con - I'm a doormat.

If I were her, I would make every effort to get my stuff out of there today while you are at work. If that's not possible, I'd figure out a time that I could get it, while you're gone. She had no problems moving her stuff out previously, why would the cameras stop her now??

I don't think you should say anything to her about this. She can reach out to you if she would like to make arrangements or something. Don't send the book to her. She is a grown woman who can get it herself. Stop bending over backwards for her.

Yes, I would agree. She's a grown woman and if she wants to come and get stuff, she'll do that. I don't see any particular need to help in that regard. Certainly don't obstruct - but otherwise I would leave it and her alone.

Do you think you may be looking for excuses to be in touch - perhaps to try and show her she has made a mistake? I don't really think it works that way and things do need to run their course. Your time will be much better spent focusing on you and moving forwards..I know you're doing your best to do this and it isn't easy.

Thanks dream / Sotto for your comments and kind words.

I'm away from home for about 13 hours a day 4 days / week. W lives in the next village over (I think) and is across the street from the house at least twice a week. She usually works from 6:30 am to about 2:00 pm and has days off mid-week when I'm away. She has lots of room in her car for stuff. She also still has her keys and knows where the spare keys are hidden. Opportunity has never been lacking for her for all these months.

We did have a text exchange after she and her brother "gutted" the place and then said that she had more to take out. I told her that we needed to agree before she went back in on when she could access and what she could take. Other than the next day when I suggested that she take the toaster and toaster waffles (I don't eat that sort of junk) she's never returned. I honestly did expect her to be in and out of the house quite a bit - another thing I've been wrong on. There are still some family heirlooms from her family that were overlooked the first time plus a bunch of every-day things that she presumably is feeling the lack of.

It's things like this that make me feel that she's really suffering in some ways and is confused / depressed. More than one person has suggested that she's acting like a spoiled, entitled teenager rather than a rational grown woman based on my descriptions of her actions. Mind you, she's trained me to jump every time she said "frog" for almost 30 years so my lack of immediate obedience is probably confusing her.

I also posed this question to the SIL army. SIL2 used a bunch of exclamation marks on her - ahem - much shorter answer that said the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Sotto

Do you think you may be looking for excuses to be in touch - perhaps to try and show her she has made a mistake? I don't really think it works that way and things do need to run their course. Your time will be much better spent focusing on you and moving forwards..I know you're doing your best to do this and it isn't easy.

Can I refuse to answer this without advice from counsel

The consensus seems to be this far to leave her alone. My last message to her was (I think) pretty clear that it was up to her to get whatever she wanted and where it likely was so I don't need to add a "refusal" message.

The next hurdle on this will be next month when she wants her snow tires which are in an outside shed and presumably her warm winter stuff which is in the front hall closet.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Mind you, she's trained me to jump every time she said "frog" for almost 30 years so my lack of immediate obedience is probably confusing her.

I wonder if it isnt more confusing to you to break this kind of habit.

Perhaps when she said she would like the cookbook, she didn't mean that she wants it NOW, but that she wants it and she doesn't want YOU to keep it for yourself. So basically, take whatever recipes you want out for yourself and leave the book for her to get whenever she decides to get the rest of her stuff.

I don't see anything that suggests she is suffering or confused/depressed.

Anyway, I agree. Let it be. If she contacts you about the winter stuff, we can talk about that then!

Hi Andrew, yes I would agree - don't worry about the winter tyres. If she wants or needs something, she already knows that she will need to get in touch and arrange that. Until or unless she does, do try to put it out of your mind.

I would say, it's best to shift from initiator to responder role. So, there's no need to initiate anything with her and put all your energies into rebuilding after her departure. If you need to respond to anything, you can always post for advice first. This is a work in progress and I know it is hard to shift your attention from her - but it can be done with time and persistence.

Do you have any nice plans this weekend?

I got back from my IC appointment a short while ago and had a nice fresh scone for my lunch from the bake-shop around the corner. The owner is very sympathetic and we chatted a bit. She's a really nice lady and quite kind.

Originally I was thinking of posting a fresh summary of my sitch but my session was so good and I have a lot to process and examine first inside myself. Sadly this is probably my second last one that I am eligible for with this particular therapist (referral by my doctor). I'll have to decide if I will chance finding someone else who is as good.

darknes - my IC and I talked a fair bit about my codependency which is what I think you are referring to. Sort of a "well you recognize the issue so work on it" kind of conversation. I very much have a bunch of unhealthy patterns that need to be broken in any future relationship be they with W or not.

dream - Buried waaay back in my bicycle tour are some conversations with vets where they indicated that based on what I said that W is very likely in the midst of a MLC. Key components that they looked for were depression and confusion which W certainly had leading up to her leaving. I don't have any direct knowledge but wouldn't be surprised if she functions fairly well most of the time. One of the things that helps me keep standing is telling myself that she's "not well" and I do see signs of confusion and depression in her interactions with our children and what I see on Facebook.

Sotto - I'm an unreformed planner type. I always try to look ahead at what might happen and being more than a bit of the "fix it" type wonder what may be coming that I'll need to deal with. The key thing here is that these are all things that I shouldn't be dealing with. I'm actually rather pleased with myself with my response about the cookbook - other than the inserted R talk for which I continue to hang my head in shame. Dropping that topic where I left it is the best tactic. I hope for myself that by recognizing what bumps might be in the road that I can wheel my bike around them. We'll see how well I do - I'm certainly not a pro at this

My plan at this point is that if she contacts me again about anything that she left behind I'll respond reminding her that she still has her keys and is welcome to come pick whatever up whenever she likes including if she asks again about the recipe books. Sort of the "not my monkeys" thing.
This weekend may well be quiet. I'm working from home today because of my IC appointment and defrosted a mystery lump of meat for dinner. It turned out to be 2 quarter chickens. I need to figure out what to do with them. I reached out to D24 who is an excellent cook for ideas. Perhaps slow roasted with a Marsala and sherry sauce. The rest of the weekend should be quiet. Laundry, groceries (including my fresh roses and a visit with the lady who sells them), ironing etc. I've reached out to SIL2 about visting her, my brother and my infant nephew on the weekend as well. I'm also hoping the weather holds and if it does to go for a hike in one of the many forested areas around me. How about yourself?

Sorry for the long post - feeling a bit bad at the moment. Nothing of consequence here - just needing to write. It's rather rambling and disorganized as a number of my posts tend to be. In some ways I envy other travelers who can post briefly about their sitch, get helpful actionable advice and move on. That doesn't seem to be my fate.

Buggerit. I was looking for an old picture of W and I to remember the good times in a backup while I was also looking for a movie to watch tonight. I saw some "memes" that she was saving in January that pretty much nail down to the day when she fell for OM. It hurts but it didn't shatter me. I had originally thought it had happened in February but no, it happened just around New Years when she was making such a big point at a party (which confused me at the time) of how faithful she was.

There was also a catalogue for spices that was left in our house mailbox for W. I'm figuring on not bothering to contact her about it. If she wants it she can see it in our bookshelf - not that she's likely to darken the door of the house any time soon.

I've had conversations recently including today with my IC where the word "fair" and "deserves" were used. As in people telling me this isn't fair to me and isn't what I deserve. Well - fair is a 4 letter word and people don't get what they deserve. You get what you get and have to deal with it.

I know that job who is a wonderful big-hearted person writes that this is all in God's hands. For someone like me who is rather agnostic but tries hard to respect other's beliefs I can appreciate that sentiment. This is also in my own hands and in W's hands. I honestly don't know what to do or where to turn right now which is why I was thinking of writing a situation summary. Yes - I want my W to come home and for us to be a family again. I'd be willing to accept a D too if that is what she wants because it would give me closure of a fashion. In the last while I've been feeling more and more lost and directionless. The fuel that I had to feed the fire of standing as Jack_3_Beans recommended to me is running low.

dream who is another person who I greatly admire wrote today that she doesn't see how W is confused and depressed. Well - I'm sitting here right now all alone except for 2 cats weeping in a big house that used to be a home so I at least am confused and depressed.
There is no way to know for sure where W is or how she is feeling but we can reasonably assume that she spends a lot of time alone in her apartment which is who knows where. 7 months ago and even perhaps 3 months ago she thought she had a new life ahead of her with OM and that she could split from her old life. She imagined that she would continue to have a good relationship with her children and even with me (I think). She also probably thought that she could forever keep that she had an affair secret and preserve her reputation in the community. Her children as far as I am aware have not heard from her in months. The wide group of friends that she used to have has shrunk dramatically and (according to what I see in Facebook) seems to have now come down to one fire-starter friend and people she knows through her that she previously didn't like. And OM? No clue but he seems to be remarkable by his absence in her public life. Funny thing, in many cases that I read about women at W's stage of life starting an A it is with a younger, more dynamic man than what they had. OM is 10 years older and from the limited knowledge I have of him is that he is even more boring than I am with narrow interests in a local sports team and perhaps golf. For those who may be interested, he lost his wife to cancer not too long ago, has three grown sons and several grandchildren as well as being a respected member of the business community in the small city he lives in an hour away from here. There is no way for me to know why they've not publicly hooked up or why W hasn't moved in with him. There must presumably be some barriers to this happening at this point. I'd like to think that W is having second thoughts but can't know. This may also go along with W not filing for divorce and leaving so much of her possessions behind. Even before she left, starting towards the start of June they seemed to be spending little time together and really only getting together once a week or so then and only for a couple of hours at a time. W would leave me a note that she was "out to dinner with a friend".

So - yes - I feel sorry for W even if she did bring this catastrophe on to us pretty much on her own. Since my love for her is so strong I know that I can forgive all of this, perhaps even if she doesn't come back. Is it all crashing down around her? Is it all crashing around him? Them? Speculation while a former entertainment of mine isn't something that I have a lot of energy for these days. It also doesn't make a d@mned bit of difference to my own circumstance.

And yes - I saw a number of photos that W had taken of us together in 2015 which is what I was looking for where we were very much in love with each other. I did feel good because the 50+ lbs that I've lost are certainly very noticeable and even though I think I looked pretty good then, I look better now. I also now am helped to remember that love we had for each other. I still don't understand what happened to her that took her down the path that led to OM. He had been chasing after her having lunch, drinks and being a kind sympathetic person for several months before she fell for him. Looking back and knowing that while I do like myself that I am a flawed individual who generally tries to do his best there still is nothing that I can point to that I could have done different that would have had W not take the path that she did. Some readers may dispute this but it is what I believe. Believing this helps me not self-flagellate and try to heal, grow and yes, move on.

If you did read this, thank you. If you have other, constructive ideas about what to do with the spice catalogue, even if they are ideas a la Doodler (who I don't think visits my threads here) I'd be interested in hearing them.

Time for me to figure out what to make with the quarter chickens that I have I suppose. I have a nice bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon to go with it and am thinking of watching The Wizard of Oz, singing loudly along with the songs which our family would usually do when we were all together. Perhaps the cats will join in tonight. It was looking for my digital copy of that movie that led me to the backups. W took pretty much all the great classic movies with her when she left ignoring which ones were my own favourites and that I had hunted down. I chose to not make a fuss. I just need to figure out how to play the digital copy which is on now my phone on the Apple TV box.

Peace be with you all.

Do you have a fireplace? I vote for burning the spice catalogue.

I'd recycle the spice catalog. Not to be vindictive or mean, but just because that's what I do with catalogs, unless I need to place an order in the near future.

Burning or recycling the catalogue are both very good ideas and then call and cancel the subscription....

Andrew,

I wouldn't do anything with the catalogue except put it in one of the boxes with her cookbooks on the porch. If you happen to get another one, then cut the label off the catalogue and write a letter advising them that you are not interested in receiving their catalogues in the future.

Thanks everyone. Pretty much the suggestions I expected. AndrewP of two weeks ago would have found a way to get the catalogue to W. I've put it on a shelf for now. D24 likes this product line and I may ask her if she wants anything.

This is one of the "home party" things that W was always a big fan of but generally unsuccessful at. Friends who promised to show up would usually bail. It was hand delivered to our door by the rep who is also a friend of W and who presumably is one of many who is in the dark about our status. There are dozens of jars of this stuff around the house still that I am reluctant to throw out but at a loss on how to use.

I'll "keep it safe" for her.

Funny tonight. I downloaded an app so that I could watch the digital copy I made of The Wizard of Oz on the TV, singing along (of course). One of our favourite movies. So many great lines about Home and knowing what is important. My W is coming home bump itched but is undoubtedly wrong.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I think the better alternative is to make a set plan for her to pick up whatever she needs. Telling her what she already knows - she has a key and is welcome home at anytime - is the same thing you told her last time she asked about something in your home. You could ask her what her preference is as to how/when she would like to get her stuff. Or you could provide some dates/times that work for you and let her choose from there.

Why would we assume she is spending a lot of time alone in her apartment?

ah, Job, taking the high road and dissuading A.P. from doing any cathartic burning-- not that I thought he ever would, though. the point was he shouldn't rush to give it to her-- which is happening, and is a good thing.

Would a 180 be to deal with her stuff? I wonder.

I couldn't sleep tonight so I thought I'd check the boards. The 1/2 dozen chocolate chip cookies, while they paired nicely with the red wine as desert perhaps were a regrettable choice.

Originally Posted By: dream

The plan right now is to actively do nothing. I'll defer to a MLC vet like job on this but from what advice I've received previously is to leave her alone, not require any decisions from her (messed up on that recently) and let her "bake". With that said, I have been expecting an imminent divorce since the start of March and have had a lot of time to think / plan. The plan right now is if it comes that I actually want her stuff out of the house is to pack up her stuff quietly, put it into a storage locker paid for 2 months and deliver her the key. I think one of the vets mentioned this on my thread months ago. Otherwise, it is currently packed out of the way and not an inconvenience to me.

Originally Posted By: dream

Why would we assume she is spending a lot of time alone in her apartment?

I can't know this for sure because I have a very narrow window into her life. I do know that she has her Pomeranian with her and she takes her responsibility for him very seriously now. When we were together she would go off "wherever" and trust that I would look after him. He's incontinent, barky and has separation anxiety. When I used to watch her online activity more closely it would appear that she was usually home in the evenings relatively early as well as through the day on her day off. She has a relatively small data plan on her phone and I believe that OM doesn't have internet. He certainly has no social media profile and only a generic email address that is used for his business. A lot of assumptions here though based on mainly her Facebook patterns before she moved out and after as well as what I see of interactions with her (apparently) dwindling group of friends. While I freely admit that my mind-reading skills are pretty crappy and were extremely unreliable during the summer I have known her for more than 1/2 my life and believe that I can see patterns in her visible actions, tone of her posts that indicate that she doesn't get out much. I also could be extremely wrong. No way to tell and my hope that she's actually thinking things through is probably biasing me. Either way it makes no real difference to how I live my life right now other than giving me a tiny crumb of motivation to keep standing for her / us.

Originally Posted By: Altair

And that's where it's a struggle with a "vanisher" MLCer. Right now I'm doing the "lighthouse" thing which I believe I'm pretty good at. It's who I've always been, quiet, reliable, trustworthy. I used to joke that W married me because I was dependable but after a few years she just found me boring

A 180 is used to change a behaviour that doesn't "work" for one that does. W has for the first time in essentially 6 months possibly popped her head out of her squirrel tunnel. It may well be a false alarm and nothing at all to do with her waking up - which I expect to probably be the case. I hope I can be forgiven for getting excited at my first sighting of the rare W-Beast. Perhaps being a lighthouse "has" been working. If I start pushing her to finish moving out and take her crap with her I worry that will shove her right back into her tunnel, possibly for good. I have also thought though that being quiet has allowed her to carry on however she likes in her little "love nest" - but as you can see from my response to dream - I have doubts about how lovey that nest actually is at present. I can't know that for sure with my vanisher.

On the other hand, a lot of what I've read indicates that even in the case of a MLCer that many only return when the LBS apparently gives up on them. The reality is as I'm sure you have noticed in recent posts, I have been very close to throwing in the towel for more than a month now. Pushing her to finish moving out certainly would be a sign of me giving up. She's very likely noticed that I've gotten a new will. I've been debating having another consultation with my D lawyer (she sees our books so would know) to plan out options which would also be a "giving up" sign which is one of the reasons I'm reluctant to do that. I've also debated starting to cut her off from things and have been working up a mental list. Things like NetFlix (which I pay for), her email goes through a private domain (no her name isn't Hillary) so that would be cut off, her credit card (which she doesn't use), our joint bank account etc. Some of this is tricky legally and the general advice I've received both as someone who is standing for her and from my L is to not be an @ss which cutting her off could be perceived to be.

One thing that I told W at the beginning of this journey and that I still believe is that I want her to be happy. My preference is that she is happy with me but I have told her that if she is happy away from me that I would not stand in her way.

If I had good confidence that it would break the apparent deadlock that W is in on deciding what to do and that the end result would be her happiness then I would certainly bang away on the tunnel and oblige her to make a choice like the adult she supposedly is. I don't have that confidence but am very much open to think about it more. This active inaction is driving me batty as I'm sure everyone reading can tell. At least in the last few weeks I've gotten stronger and don't dwell on things nearly as much as I did before. Most of the days now I'm living my life with only occasional thoughts of W and rarely of an obsessive nature.

Right now I feel that I can get through this to at least the spring. Suffering as I do from seasonal depression the winter will be tough alone and I will probably need to actively ramp up the GAL with outdoor activities to fight that. We usually go away to the Caribbean mid-winter for a week or so which helps a lot and the money is already saved for that. I'm waffling about it.

Hey Andrew, your red wine and chocolate chip cookie combo sounds like the perfect pud to me!

IMHO I think the whole 'LBS may take notice once we seemingly give up' scenario may not be as effective with someone in MLC. I might be wrong but as I understand it, MLC is a long process for the WS and when they return before they have gone through the process it often spells disaster.

I think you are also doing what most of us are guilty of at one stage or another and that is looking behind you to see if your S has noticed that you have done something significant in the hope that this will 'shock' them out if it and return.

Andrew, you need to keep moving forward for you and not to see if she is watching. Once you start taking your own journey and when your W is ready she may well see that your are leaving her behind and will try and catch up with you. Remember, she lives in a fiat above a shop and you live in the marital home all cosy and full of love and happy memories. I read somewhere (might have been here) that the WS is more likely to want to return to something familiar so continue to make your home the lighthouse and you the lighthouse keeper.

Now, what I'm interested in is were those cookies home made or shop bought? I am not a great baker but I remember watching a friend of mine make cookies and thought I had died and gone to heaven when she stared pressing large chunks of milk chocolate into the cookie dough before putting them in the oven. I'm salivating as I write this... :0)

Happy weekend!!

"I'm an unreformed planner type. I always try to look ahead at what might happen and being more than a bit of the "fix it" type wonder what may be coming that I'll need to deal with."

I understand this....and I'm a recovering 'fixer' too. However, our types aren't set in stone and we can adapt to circumstances. Instead of ruminating forwards, I would encourage to put energy into planning things for you and making things happen for you without your W featuring in them.

Until or unless she initiates something, your life is yours to live and energy spent on her detracts from that. I have been there and know it isn't easy - but that is the way forward I would say.

Definitely go on the trip. Since this winter is going to be challenging on more fronts than usual, don't miss doing the things that help you get through.

I very strongly urge you to go somewhere different, somewhere you have never been before. Preferably a whole new country.

It will prevent you from doing what you've always done, and since you said you want to be stronger in a new R (whoever it's with), it's important to start practicing.

I know you think the things like the will and going to see a divorce lawyer makes her think you've given up. But other actions are very contradictory as in at the same time you tell her to come home and be a family.

"Appearing" like you've given up doesn't draw them back. If you read many of the stories, there may be a point the was looks back. But that's when the lbs has TRULY moved on. Not just little " moves" that might me interpreted that way.

I understand the temptation of trying to be a facebook psychoanalyst. Piecing together all the social media signs, but social media is rarely reflective of what's truly going on.

Take some more time not trying to figure out how she appears on social media or how you appear to her on social media or through google calendars or through your bank account.

when that begins to happen I would truly do the best I could to redirect it

Andrew,

If you w contacts you in the near future, you may want to say something like this: "w, you are more than welcome to come by and pick up your belongings, especially your fall and winter clothing since it's gotten cooler." If she hems and haws about what she wants, ask her if she would prefer to make a list of what she wants and go from there in packing it up placing the items somewhere safe for her to come get them. Sometimes the word "home" makes them back up and not want to come there. Why? Because it reminds them of their past life, i.e., which was happy one and yes, coming there gives them more guilt to deal with.

If you feel the need to destroy something, write a letter to your w and then burn it. Do not give it to her.

Andrew, hang in there! Don't over analyze the situation. Things are never as they appear to others.

Originally Posted By: Coly23

Now, what I'm interested in is were those cookies home made or shop bought? I am not a great baker but I remember watching a friend of mine make cookies and thought I had died and gone to heaven when she stared pressing large chunks of milk chocolate into the cookie dough before putting them in the oven. I'm salivating as I write this... :0)

Happy weekend!!

Thanks Coly23! The cookies were indeed shop bought but fresh baked from the shop across the street. Somewhat interesting dynamic there. W worked out of that shop for many years, doing much of the baking in fact. I used to brag to people about how wonderful it was to have a wife that after a long hard day at work would come home smelling of cinnamon rolls

The chance came up about 2 or 3 years ago for W to take over as manager in the sister shop the next village over (the one I believe she now lives above). So W's boss is there quite often as are her co-workers and on one memorable occasion last week, W herself (I turned and ran).

In my pre-marriage days I would bake cookies from time to time and it is one of those things I enjoy doing. Being a single guy who is wanting to keep off the weight he lost from the LBS diet I worry a bit about getting back into baking because "portion control" can be difficult when they come fresh out of the oven and there's no-one to share with

I saw another post this morning where Cadet referenced the poster looking for an "easy button" - don't we all wish that such a thing existed. No matter which way my bike turns I think the pedaling will be uphill and bumpy.

I hope you have a great weekend as well. It was snowing a few km to the east of here this morning and is supposed to be a cloudy blustery day although the sun is shining right now. I'll probably use the clothes dryer instead of the line today (the excitement never ends does it!).

Thanks again.

Sotto, Rose888, Ginger1 - thanks so much for the visit and the supportive comments. I will indeed not just try but actually work on re-focusing back on myself. Rose - good thought on trying someplace different. It's not "really" different but perhaps I'll go back to Havana - it's an amazing city that W and I visited a number of years ago and for a variety of reasons I never got to explore as much as I wanted to. I'm not really a "beach" kind of guy which is where we used to always go because that was W's wish.

It's funny in some ways - earlier in this journey I was watching W in whatever way I could out of fear. Fear of her going to OM, fear of her filing for D, fear of her finding a new life and never coming back, and yes - fear of her doing a return. A few weeks after she left the house most of that fear left me - perhaps because I became emotionally prepared for most of those events(?) Or more possibly because the continual delays in any sort of action implies that any action on her part may be far in the future still (?) I still have fears yes but in some ways I think I've come to terms with all of the paths that W might take. I have new fears that I need to find the courage to face on the path that lies before me and really appreciate the comments you have made that focus on that part of my future.

Originally Posted By: job

job - Thank you so much! I was going to ask for a suggestion on what to say. There's a (remote) possibility that at the start of next week that W will do a follow-up to find out about her cookbook. I'm going to work up an "AndrewP" version of this suggestion keeping it as short as possible so that I can have it handy for this sort of eventuality. I hadn't realized before but it makes sense that the word "home" could be threatening to W where before and to me it has always been a word of comfort.

I can easily unlock the front porch door / leave a key to it so that W can enter the house without going past the security system which I believe her to be afraid of. I think there's no reason to go beyond that in accommodating her. Not counting her books still on the bookshelves (a few hundred) and some boxes of childhood and seasonal stuff that is in the cellar there is only really about 2 carloads of stuff left that she could have an obvious claim to. I honestly don't know if she'll ever come back for it while she's still spinning out there on her own stationary bike. She keeps surprising me by her inaction.

Take care everyone. I just ordered myself a new bow tie from Cyberoptix (a fun shop in Detriot found on Etsy) using money from filling out online surveys and coins I rolled. One of my weird quirks is that even though I'm building out my bow tie collection (up to about 15 right now) I do it slowly picking each one carefully and then only using "found money" to purchase. W used to push me to just buy what I wanted but for me it's more fun and rewarding to do it this way.

A bit soon but a tad of Journaling.

I went for a lovely hike today (9 1/4km - with a lot of up and down) and really enjoyed being out in nature. I sent D24 a bunch of SnapChats and even a couple to S22.

Lots of great pictures were taken and a fair amount of thinking was done. One thing that surprised me was the realization that "today" what I wanted was for W to marry OM and move on with her life. It would be a whole lot cheaper for me (crass logic I suppose) and give me closure. I do worry about if W and I will be capable even if willing to do the hard work to reconcile or not. This is the main reason for the journal today. I think that this is the first time that I've told myself that a future without W could be a good one. Tomorrow I may feel differently but I think this marks a major shift in my thinking. I'm not sure what I think about this thinking.

I'm getting my Halloween preparations organized. The candy is all bagged and I have a fresh pumpkin. Most people probably don't look at it this way but for me Halloween is is my time to give back to the community for the good fortune I've had through the year. As I told the lady I buy my roses from on Saturday, even though this has been a difficult year, I still have a lot to be thankful for.

For those who've been playing along at home my interactions with the lady who sells me my roses (let's call her RL) as a potential NG are to say the least "delicate". On my side because I don't want to start anything that may not be appropriate especially if W comes back and my concerns about the large (to me) age difference. The flower shop which I believe is family owned is gearing up for their open house and Christmas. RL's mother and I believe sister were there and were involved in the chat about Halloween. RL's mother did a bit of interrogating of me and was rather surprised when I made a point of inviting them to bring S4 to my house on Halloween but "very" open to the idea. I had a private LOL thinking that I'm being inspected and if they do come but suddenly need to go into the house and use the bathroom to count the number of bars of soap in use I don't know if I will be able to control the giggling. They would also see family pictures including W but that should be a surprise to no-one. During the chat it was pretty apparent that RL and her S4 live with her parents and that from the snippy comments from her sister that it's not the most congenial of arrangements. RL took the byplay in good humour though. I believe RL to be in her early 30s.

I also wrote my monthly letter to D24/S22 tonight. Somewhat more upbeat than prior letters I hope. I had actually had a call with D24 earlier in the day which maybe made part of the letter redundant but I promise a monthly letter and a monthly letter is delivered. One thing that surprised me a bit is how supportive D24 is of my efforts to purge / tidy up the house. In the last couple of days I not only cleaned out most of the "junk drawers" but I also managed to finish the main part of the tidy in our dining room. D24 mentioned that this was the first time in her memory (and mine) that there weren't boxes of "stuff" around on the floor. There now is really only the one spare bedroom that has any concentration of W's stuff left in it. I'm really thinking that W hasn't talked at least to D24 in months and probably the same to S22. I make a point of not asking though. Very sad if true. I did mention to the kids in my letter that I did again beg W to come home or to let me know if she needed to be set free and that I had received no answer. I know that many of the people reading this believe that I shouldn't be involving / updating them about this but again - I will have no secrets from family and feel that there's a big difference between adult children and younger ones.

Finally - I think I've figured out the phrasing based on job's comments if W contacts me about her stuff.

Originally Posted By: Possible conversation - not happened

W - Did you have a chance to look for that recipe
AndrewP - Nope - it's probably in the front porch. Feel free to have a look yourself when you have a moment
<endit>

Short, to the point and hopefully non-threatening. No pushing her to move her stuff out or pushing in any fashion. Also none of me jumping to her call of "frog".

Not a bad response.... I think I would change the 'nope' to 'haven't had a chance...'

Something about the 'nope' just doesn't come off right to me, comes off as rude I think.

I would also wait to respond for a little bit if this happens.

Question time!

Our nephew on W's side who I am quite fond of and his wife are expecting a baby any day now. I've reached out to his mother (SILX2) for a mailing address (surprisingly she didn't have it already) to send a card and perhaps a small gift. I'm "pretty sure" but not positive that the nephew knows that W and I are apart. I did ask SILX2 to tell me if she felt it would be awkward for them to get a card from me or not - no response so presumably she's fine with it. We'll see if I actually get the address. I think that I probably will.

The question is - should I just send a card? Should I (I expect the answer is no) ask W if she's sending a card / gift from both of us? If I send a card should I just write W's name on it too? I could also completely ignore the event and trust that W will recognize it adequately for "us", possibly only on her own behalf.

Which leads into the second part. Historically it's been me that sends out the Christmas cards and most of the people on the Christmas card list have no idea that we are apart including a very dear couple which are the guy who introduced us and his wife - previously W's best friend in the world. We've grown apart living in different areas and W hasn't seen her friend in probably 15 years or more. I would see them from time to time when I go to my office in the city they live in but have made a point of not connecting with them while "all this" is going on.

Originally I was going to send a card just from me but am re-thinking about sending it from both of us to help preserve the quiet that W has around our situation. I would think that the "last" thing that W would need right now is a loud phone call from her past BFF asking WTF which I could see being this person's reaction if she knew we were apart which a card with just my name on it would trigger. Even though it makes me somewhat uncomfortable I'm OK with writing W's name on the cards. Should I tell W? I don't expect W to be sending her own cards out because among other things, she doesn't have the address list.

Thoughts?

Irrelevant and Unnecessary Journal but my "something up's" bump is itching again. It's usually wrong and I read too much into this but unusually W was off of Facebook for pretty much the whole weekend although she was tracking my SnapChat story so she did have internet. Her silence was broken last night with 2 very angry memes - one about hurting a lot and one about that she'll do whatever she wants and not to please other people. Silence then followed. This is in contrast to the old W who would have hit more than a dozen things mostly about going to the beach and family. Other than making my bump itch and a small bit of worry about whether she's OK or not I think I'm fairly detached even if probably not detached enough. My mind-reading / speculating turban started getting itchy even after such a short use so I've taken it off - I suspect it's got some "bugs" in it

I'm having dinner with a very good friend tomorrow night. He's been pushing me "very" hard to just dump W, find someone new and move on. He's also a very good friend who understands that I often don't follow his advice. I'm looking forward to seeing him again. He will probably have an interesting take on my now perhaps moving W into my Plan B list.

Originally Posted By: pinn

Thanks pinn. I agree that the "nope" is a bit abrupt. Your alternative suggests that I might actually dig it out for her if only she is patient enough. I'm not going to - her stuff - her problem. Perhaps just "no" instead of "nope".

If she doesn't ask in the next week I would expect that she's dropped it. You are absolutely right though - getting these responses lined up in advance is an excellent plan. She (probably) has a day off on Thursday when I'm out of the house all day and she knows it. On the other hand as time passes I can't help but feel that the odds of her coming back for "any" of her stuff keeps going down. The vets might know better but it falls somewhat into the "it doesn't really matter" category I'm thinking.

For the nephew, I'd do whatever you want to do in your name only.

I would skip Christmas cards this year.

I agree w/Rose's advice. I would send a card w/a small gift to the nephew in your name only. I wouldn't share what you have done w/your w. After all, you are separated at the moment and what you do is none of her business and vice versa.

As for the Christmas cards, if you have a few very close friends or family members (who know about your situation), then send a card, but only in your name...otherwise, I would skip them this year. There's no need for everyone to know what is going on w/you and your w at this time. Again, I wouldn't share what I was doing w/your wife.

P.S. Time to start a new thread.

New thread - same bike.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2711983&#Post2711983