Hello,
I have been on newcomers board since early July, but find myself associating and relating with more of the information I read on this side of the tracks. Threads are still up on newcomer if you would like my back story. I have done a great deal of reading on the female MLC experience in a variety of locations. I would like to talk in this forum a bit and see if my suspicions as to an MLC being what I face with my W are more legitimate here. If not, feel free to take me out.
Really brief - W is in an active PA for 9 months. In house S for 1, sold house and been physically S since march. As you see in my sig, we have a 4 year old son. I am at the point where I feel detached, lost my fear, but do not want D because that is not what I want, because I still believe. Still want to fight, but am no longer doing so out of fear, loss or rejection.
So here is the short list of why I think my W is in MLC. Itemization just seems to make sense on the intro, its not meant to be a checklist, timeline, or diagnosis. Just what happened that make me curious about the MLC possibility, and I do believe an MLC was triggered in me or perhaps I had one and helped trigger hers:
- Broken family background w/ both of us. Abuse was physical, emotional, and sexual on both of us.
- W had an alcoholic mother. I had an food addicted mother. Both our fathers checked out and stayed at work constantly while we were at home with monsters.
- Both of us had parents who separated and got back together, in both cases the fathers left the mothers: W's for 3 years, mine for 5.
- W's mother died at 48yrs old 15 years ago from drinking.
- Both of us struggled with drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity in life. I did hide a pharma drug addiction from W for two years and the S led to me getting clean (over 6 months now).
- W told me that we should have never gotten married, but she does not regret it. She said she wished we would have just stayed together w/ no marriage (she wanted M, I was reluctant).
- W said marriage is a broken institution and does not work.
- W said monogamy is a broken idea and is not real.
- W said she does not deserve me or my love.
- W said she began w/ her A as a way to punish herself, to reinforce that she is not a good person, but also that it is her body and she can do what she wants with it.
- W has told me many times that she cares nothing for OM, that she is using him, that she does not know what he is, that he has no future w/ her, that he is bullsht, that he is entertainment, that he is dumb, that he lacks wherewithal, lacks drive, and lacks initiative, and that he is unable to show any kind of leadership in life (he was a co-worker).
- W said she does not love OM
- OM is 9 years younger than W, less attractive than her, significantly less income, and less social status.
- W said she not longer feels beautiful and made many statements about fear of aging and losing her looks.
- W has recently invested in thousands of dollars in glamor photos, dermatology items, botox, and other things.
- W expressed she struggles w/ fear, anger, regret, and worthlessness. Said she has lost her own self-respect and dignity.
- W said she uses OM because it helps distract her from confronting and thinking about the past or the future, only lives in the now.
- W in M complained of feeling a loss of control, that she wanted space, wanted things of her own, said she never lived her own life by her own choices and that she wants to be free.
- W said "wants to be alone to be an individual"
- W said that she could not live in the expectations of mother/wife/homemaker or she would turn "into her mother"
- W did not used to show me emotional support at start of A, but began to again over the summer
- W lies about A and hides it from me, despite me having called her out on it three times. She could be open about it, but still chooses to pretend like it is a secret.
- W is and always has been a bit of a control freak and goes insane with rage when she loses control.
- W quit communication w/ a large portion of her family and some friends.
- W has hidden A from all family and w/ exception of 1 old friend, all of her old friends. Told them all we are S b/c she was not built for marriage and gave no other reasons.
- W has gotten a small group of new friends, all from work, and all know OM. I have never met them and before S, W stated she intentionally did not want me to meet them, but they know I exist.
- W said when EA w/ OM, she told him that she was already D, but her and I lived in the same house to save money.
- W said her M life was mundane and boring and she craved excitement and wanted new things she could have for herself.
- W built a fake life on social media, including fake hobbies and fake education for things she always wanted to do, but never did.
- W is a highly successful in corporate business w/ a high salary, reputation, and in a position of power.
- W is extremely attractive and always has been (not a biased opinion, she is by anyone's standards.)
- W has expressed that she still loves me, is in love with me, and would consider us being together again in a few years, but we damaged each other. Lat time said was less than a week ago.
- W has hidden from OM that she has asked me on dates, wanted me to go on trips, asked me over for dinner, would cook meals and deliver them to me, and would clean my apartment all after S. Most of this stopped in July when I put an end to it, but she just asked me out a few days ago.
- W has been upset around me, but only at me once when I told her I did not want s4 meeting OM and she did anyway. Just found out she did it again today.
- W contacts me daily, I never initiate. Did three weeks of NC dim in late July/August.
That's it I guess, brain dump. See what you think please. Would love some input from this forum.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
That's the short list? ; )
None of us are professionals here and MLC isn't supported by roughly half of all mental health professionals...however.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Your examples hit a lot of the text book markers that we here consider MLC.
With that being said. Welcome aboard. This is the best worst place you'll ever be.
You should have alot of support here if you continue to post. And while having vets offer you advice and guidance is like totally awesome...
What is ACTUALLY REALLY awesome is finding some poor soul a little ahead of you or a little behind you on this similar path and helping to support each other. Some of my best friends in the world came from the support here.
Take some time to go through the links that Cadet posted.
Feel free to ask questions and please start checking out other posters to get a feel for what is going on, see the advice they are getting as well.
CT1118 - I thought you might follow me over here. There's a lot of great people here who have a ton of experience and advice. I'm very grateful for what they've already offered on my own thread.
Lots of reading for you to do, not as well organized as either of us would like being the organized researcher sorts but there are gems and nuggets buried everywhere. My current reading is looking for references to "scared squirrels" and "touch and go".
I was thinking about my own list in my introductory post and looking through yours. One thing I think that both of us need to be careful of as we search for answers is like the hypochondriac we may be listing the symptoms that fit the disease we want to have. On the other hand the doctor can't do anything if we just sit there and say "it hurts". I'm not saying that either of us are wrong about thinking we may be dealing with a MLC but we also need to be open to the possibility that we might not be completely right.
With that said - welcome to you my friend and please be as patient and as friendly and open as I know you have been on Newcomers.
Thank you all. Yeah, short list...I realized I left off that she had two of her BF's die of brain cancer in the past year and half - one 8 months before S or any sign/symptom of A and one about 3 months into S.
I found the 'musings of Amy C' a very helpful post in furthering my understanding. It seems like there is little to no hope in gaining any ground in explaining pain to her. Has anyone had any success with telling the W how she is affecting their children. W has introduced OM to my s4 twice now. I have expressed 3 times in the past how against this I am for the mental health of our son.
Last night my son told me that the OM came by mommys for a sleep over. He was asking questions I just did not know how to deal with. This is a parenting question. I have not spoken to her yet. He is confused, I have him in therapy now. I have read tons of data on the damage this can cause. I know this is addiction to an A, latent pain, MLC, etc. I am not asking this question to save my M or recover - it is about my son. Any advice?
Has anyone had any success with telling the W how she is affecting their children.
There was one guy here, a few years back...
I think his vision is slowly coming back now....
As AmyC would put it ?
Don't try to convince a crazy person that they are crazy..
It's like being in a bag with 2 cats fightin...
Someone is getting scratched...
Well...the good news is. He is 4. not 10 or 14.
That doesn't sound like a whole lot of good, but its the best your going to get right now.
To answer your question.
No.
This is something that she will have to deal with later.
You? Your job is to protect him as long as you can.
He is 4, man just distract him with a puppy or something
kidding they are pretty smart. Do your best.
"sometimes friends sleep over"
Look ultimately, later on in life he isn't going to hate for for trying to protect him.
Thank you. I've been on a long road thus far and know it is longer yet. I did tell my son I thought he was very brave to share things with me, but also felt he was reaching out. She gave him a dramamine to knock him out so she could do this, which I find horrifying. I don't think that is abuse, but it is certainly not coloring in the lines either.
I did not think there would be anyway to explain it to her. I could just say it I guess, but to what end. Same end as everything else I have said. Chaos kid.
Has anyone had any success with telling the W how she is affecting their children.
My ex left my son at the side of the rode and drove off without him.
He was not too happy about that.
Of course she said it was all his fault.
Understand that they separate in the opposite order that they reconnect.
Reconnection goes things, animals, kids, us.
Take it in the opposite order for separation, us being first.
Wow Cadet. Ordinal sequence. Yeah, well, the dog does live with me now for what its worth. He's not m dog, he is her dog. I tried to get rid of him but kid loves him so much I couldn't do it. I actually did get rid of him, but went and got him back. The one part of this that is like the movies - me and this dog, unlikely partners who just sit with each other for lack of sitting alone.
But I digress, thank you sir. I had not come across this before. It does not help with me understanding what a dick she is being to our son, but it does for the sitch.
Just got texts from W. She took our s4 to the gym and he bit another kid - 2nd time this week. So, the gym banned her from bringing him for 7 days. He just does not behave this way when he is with me. Is it safe to presume this is common when kids spend time w/ the MLC parent?
I'm sorry that your W and child are banned from the gym for a week. Children can act out w/either parent. If I read correctly, your son is 4. Some children do act out and bite and pinch others. I know that my nephew (age 2) went thru this phase and he was in a loving home w/two parents and had a thing for chomping on his father's calf and he didn't do it out of meanness, but wanted to see how it tasted. It could be that another child took a toy away from him, he could have been hit, pinched, pushed or bitten by another child. At that age, they are most likely defending themselves...but I definitely would ask about it. I seriously doubt that your W was paying attention to the situation because the child was probably in the day care part of the gym and the person who saw the incident should be able to tell you or your wife what happened. When your son is w/you, you can gently ask him about it and maybe he can share a bit of light on it. Then you can gently tell him that it's not the proper thing to do if someone is bothering him.
Also, if your child is in day care, someone may have bitten him and he's not picked up that bad habit as a way of defending himself and/or "standing up" for himself w/other children. It is worth investigating because you do not want him to go to pre-k biting others. If he were younger, I would say it's an experimental behavior to see how things taste and feel in his mouth, but at the age of 4, he shouldn't be doing this. I suspect he was provoked by another child...
Thanks job. Last time, son did say a kid took his toy. And you are right, this is standard behavior. I read recently that children struggling with S can actually regress to a younger age of behavior. I do intend to monitor. My son struggles to speak to me, but that does not stop me from trying. I am working with my IC to develop better ways to engage him.
And yes, he was in day care, she was working out. It makes me sad for both of them as gym is her most effective way to destress and it tires the boy out for her. But generally speaking, his behavior around her is an atrocity and around me he does very well. He has some abandoment issues w/ her. As she was beginning her A, she was obviously "at work" a lot. He would cry and want to see her. Her and I had many fights over this as I just wanted her to work less, until I learned she wasn't working.
What may help w/your communication w/your son is to actually get down to his level. If he has a favorite program, toy or game, then you will need to talk to him about these things, ask questions, play w/him and just listen to what he shares, then validate him. This very well could open the door a bit for you and your son and also a better bonding experience.
CT1118,
I am in the same situation as you.
Wife is having a midlife crisis and my 3 year old son is:
1. Regressing, pretending he is a baby when mommy and daddy were together.
2. Peeing in his pants like a baby even at night in bed, he was fully potty trained before separation.
3. He started kicking me, biting me and spanking me occasionally, he never did that before.
4. He wakes up at night saying "mommy......mommy.....".
It breaks my heart, and this is what has been helping so far.
1. I keep telling him that mommy is a good person and I that I will always love her, it calms him down and he can sleep better.
2. I keep telling that mommy might come back someday and that we just have to be patient and wait, again, it calms him down and makes him happy.
3. I keep telling him that mommy needs to be alone without daddy for a few years, it calms him down.
4. I keep telling him that I love him and that I will always be there for him. It calms him down and makes him happy.
I hope it helps,
Hugs
Cld
What may help w/your communication w/your son is to actually get down to his level. If he has a favorite program, toy or game, then you will need to talk to him about these things, ask questions, play w/him and just listen to what he shares, then validate him. This very well could open the door a bit for you and your son and also a better bonding experience.
It's been a "long" time since my kids were this age but I might also suggest that the "get down to his level" thing is also physical. We tower over our children and I always tried to get physically where I can look them right in the eyes when we were talking. Also keep in mind - he also probably picked up genetics at an early age. From what I've read you've had your own struggles. Perhaps think about what helped you cope and figure out a way to explain it to him in language he can understand. I know with my own son that it helped stop some behaviours that were caused by jealousy of other kids who had better things when I told him that I understood and had the same problems.
Lastly - do not underestimate a child. They're very smart and pick up on everything going on around them. I always treated my kids as just short people and we had some fabulous conversations at every age and I like to think that we are good friends now and will be for the rest of our lives.
Guys.
Also give them power.
By this I mean by saying. Hey I have a great idea. Who wants to be in charge today? Then do what they want.
Try it. I do this with the kids sometimes. It's fab just do it - if it works do it again. I think if you do that it empowers them. They therefore feel in control.
Hope that helps
Surfer.
Most importantly...when they do something right...recognize them for it. Don't just address their issues when they do something wrong. The more you recognize good behavior, the better.
All great words shared here. Thank you all so much. I do physically get on his level, kneeling and making my face equal to his face. I did just begin that recently though. Cld, I really like what you said and will use it. Much better than what I had been offering.
I went to a pool party tonight which was on a road requiring me to go past my wife's town home. I have stated on my newcomer threads many times about this area and how to go certain places I pass her place. She has my son tonight and I saw OM's truck in her driveway. I realize me speaking to her about it will do nothing. Perhaps worse than nothing, perhaps only strengthening her indignity toward who she hurts and how. I did not feel much about myself in it, but my heart bleeds for my son, who is so very very confused.
So in a musing to what Cadet told me about the order of dismissal...spouse, kid, animal,etc. My W dropped off our s4 today. I did not confront about having her OM at the house while s4 was there, which he told me on Thursday (later today he told me OM was there last night as well). I accept, what difference would it make. I hate it, but not in an anger way, in a way that I have no control over why she would ever feel that is ok. But, understood, what good would it do to say anything. At least she has not entirely abandoned him as so many other stories state.
She came to my apartment to drop off s4 this morning. Her dog lives w/ me. I really did not want to keep him, but did so when I realized she wanted to give him up, but our son loves this dog very much. I did get rid of the dog for a month and son was so broke up I went and got him back. Anyway, this dog tolerates me, he loves my W. She ignored him and was even cross w/ him today. I told her "he just wants you to pet him" so she reluctantly gave him some half arsed love. She mentioned s4 complained of his ear hurting and said she would take him to the doctor, "but I told him if I did, they would give him a shot in his ear, so he does not want to go." Well no sht.
An hour later, he is going down south quick and I take him to the emergency clinic. Ear infection. Two and a half hours later, got meds and he has been on sofa all sick for the entire day. She ignored my texts while I was there asking for background "hey, i am in the emergency clinic. Our son is not well. I need any information you might have to give the dotors. How long. Whatdid he eat. how did he sleep? I need to tell them anything you can give me, I was not there, you were." Four hours later I get a call that her phone is "messed up" and she did not get the text.
This is a vent. I get it, I get her sitch. They dismiss, excuse, and differ. Just a freaking shame. He is stable on the sofa now. In and out of sleep. Getting better I trust.
CT118,
Your wife's parent separated for 3 years and got back together.
I think that's important, she might do the same with you.
I surely hope she comes back.
How old is she?
Hugs
CT1118 - Glad to hear your son is OK. That was a big scare.
You might not want to rely on text. In case of an emergency like that, just call. I know that for me S22 will often ignore texts for days but he always picks up and talks to me when I call. But then again perhaps I'm more "old fashioned" than you young kids
I'm glad to hear that your son is okay and you got him in to see a physician. The poor little guy. I can just imagine how awful he felt. I can understand why he didn't want to see a doctor after what he was told about a shot.
Now, about your wife, do not rely on text messages. Pick up the phone and call her. Hopefully she'll pick up the phone when it rings or vibrates.
As for your wife, just leave her be as much as possible. She may act out very similar to what she was exposed to as a child/young adult, but there is no guarantee that she'll end up doing what her parents did...the outcome is hers to figure out, just as the time frame is, i.e., it could be longer or it could be shorter. There's no way to tell. In other words, there's no guarantee when she'll return or if one or both of you both opt to go your separate ways and share joint custody.
I would like to add to what Cadet posted to you on how the MLCer detaches from others. The usual order of detachment occurs as follows: the LBS, children, pets, friends and family. When they begin to wake up, they reconnect in the opposite order. The LBS is the last one. Also, they do a lot touch and goes along the way, so don't be fooled by them into thinking that they are in the final stages of their crisis. The touch and goes are to see if you are still out there waiting for them and wanting a reaction from you. Continue as you have been when these occur.
Continue to move forward and I hope the little one is feeling much better today.
Thanks everyone.
Cld - she is 40, but will be 41 in three weeks. Of course she hates this and in the beginning of the S, when I cared about such things, believe she mentioned lying about her age to her OM who is 9 years younger. I am 6 mo. older than her.
I hear the voice on the phone call. I did not call b/c I did not wish to empower her as to feeling that I could not handle it on my own. He gave no signs of an allergic reaction so it was not quite an emergency. When she finally did reach me, her self-assessment of telling him such things was far worse than what I would have said to her. And, the texts are a way to leave her be IMO. And yes, she very much experienced things like this as a child.
Time frame - what is time frame? I am joking of course.
So, would like an opinion on this. It sounded logical. I proposed to my IC this morning my question of how to communicate w/ MLC that I feel s4 being around OM is detrimental. Said I knew it would not hurt him today, but potential to cause his future self in his own R's the inability to function. She told me what you all did and what I knew - there is no way to make her understand the damage she can/is causing.
But, the IC did suggest saying this: "I know we are separated and I am not judging your actions. I would like for you to know that our son has told me you had a friend come by for a sleepover twice this week and he was very confused by this. I am offering that if you ever feel compelled to have this person over while it is your night to watch our son, you can call me and if I am able to, I will come by and pick him up for the night."
And leave it at that. I am already quite used to saying such matter of fact messages to people (personnel manager for over 11 years), including W.So, I have no worries about being distracted by potential anger or argument and fully able to resolve in the face of disruption by stating "I have made an offer, it will remain available.I am going to go now."
What do you all think of the IC's suggestion?
You can try it, but you have to think about this...how is she going to react to your suggestion? Will she take it out on your son for telling you about the OM coming by?
How about saying something like this "wife, I want you to know that I am more then happy to pick up son and have him spend the night if you should have plans when he's w/you. Sometimes the little man gets confused when you have guests and doesn't understand what is going on."
Of course, you can change this any way you like. But, my concern is will she take it out on him for telling you about the om staying over.
I do not have any reason to believe or historical evidence to believe that she would take it out on him. Her anger, rather, her shortness of temper with him has improved since our S (as has mine for that matter).
That said, I find what you offer job to me more human-like and less academic.
Thank you
CT,
You have to find a way to phrase your sentences so that it doesn't look like you are chastising her for her behavior. What the IC suggested would have been fine had she been rational, but she's operating on emotions right now, so you have to temper your comments to make it sound like you are offering up a suggestion and allowing her to make good decision.
I know, it's crazy, but that's the way their minds work while in crisis.
I agree with Job, in fact this is what I did, I said I would rather have the boys on nights you have plans with OM.
Something to that effect.
Of course some diplomacy might be required in how you state this. I sort of like how Job stated it, but you know your wife better...even in this MLC situation than anyone.
CT1118
I proposed to my IC this morning my question of how to communicate w/ MLC that I feel s4 being around OM is detrimental.
As you have pointed out, you have already mentioned this to her. Why do it again.
Said I knew it would not hurt him today, but potential to cause his future self in his own R's the inability to function.
How do you know that his future would be negatively impacted by this? IMO, you don’t. He just may end up getting along with OM. Believe it or not – YOUR ability to be a wonderful dad has NOTHING to do with OM.
But, the IC did suggest saying this: "I know we are separated and I am not judging your actions. I would like for you to know that our son has told me you had a friend come by for a sleepover twice this week and he was very confused by this. I am offering that if you ever feel compelled to have this person over while it is your night to watch our son, you can call me and if I am able to, I will come by and pick him up for the night."
I would not bother saying anything. That said, if your son wants to come over to YOUR house when OM is around I would just have him confirm that is would be okay with his mom.
CT, I may be wrong here…but having been in your position before, I feel like you may be trying to keep the kids out of this, which I get. I also know that chance are YOU will not be able to do that. She is going to do what she wants to do.
Thank you all for the feedback - 2 for, 1 against. If it helps, this was not something I had planned to call up and say. I would wait for her to make contact and then drop it in the middle of conversation. I do also realize that my chances of success here are slim.
eric - correct, I do not empirically know this. I am basing this of statistical or clinical data I have read on the matter - there is a better way to introduce a child to the OM/OW and a not so better way, having a partner over for the night does not fall under the right way. He is 4 so I can try to offer that to him, but unlikely he could speak for himself in such a way.
I have been in this position before, but not w/ OM coming to house. This all just began last Wed night and happened again over the weekend.
Again, it may be different had she not told me what a "loser" she thought this guy was, her words not mine.
I will consider what has been offered, but I also realize, there does not seem to ever be a right or wrong answer to such things.
CT1118
I do also realize that my chances of success here are slim.
So focus on what YOU might be sucessful at. Maybe try and see your son more often. A few more sleep overs at dads. Just an idea.
I am basing this of statistical or clinical data I have read on the matter - there is a better way to introduce a child to the OM/OW and a not so better way, having a partner over for the night does not fall under the right way. He is 4 so I can try to offer that to him, but unlikely he could speak for himself in such a way.
I understand the right vs wrong way….and I totally understand how you might be feeling. Here is the thing both of YOU overtime will end up doing the BEST you can and the BEST may not always be the “statistical or clinical way”. It will be though YOUR best. You never gonna going to control her and if she is in a crisis, she really will continue to do whatever it is she feel like doing. YOUR best bet….make this about YOUR son, try and spend as much time with him as possible. He will need a parent that is stable. Be the ROCK to him and TRUST that he will over time understand this.
Good luck and I know how much this [censored]. FWIW, my two boys are now with me full time. As Cadet would say...trust the process.
Peace,
Eric
CT118 , check out Brubeck and Eagle11's thread here in MLC.
Vets are great, but its the guy in the same foxhole who will get you through the firefight.
Thanks, I will look them up tomorrow.
CT118,
Your çhances are not slim, they are huge.
Three years from now she will get back with you, I am 100% sure about it.
Hugs,
Cld
Thank you Cld. That is very promising. My history w/ her indicates you are correct. I just have to hold strong that this time she seeks the healing inside her.
eric2 - Thank you as well. I have been focusing on me quite a bit since end of Feb when this all hit, although most of that progress is notated on Newcomer board. Nonetheless, you are correct, and this was a task blatant to me from instinct at the start. I was a pharma drug addict when this began, so I really had nowhere to go but up.
Jack3Beans - no kidding sir, excellent ID. Their sitches are very similar to my sitch. I am going to read more. You all have flooded them and me w/ some great info.
CT,
Please do not attempt to set a time limit on your wife's crisis. It could be shorter or longer than 3 years. You can't base what may or may not happen on what transpired w/her parents. You have a 50/50 chance of her waking up and wanting to reconcile. Why the 50/50? Well, it's because: 1) she may wake up and decide the damage and the work too great to return; 2) you may opt that you don't want to reconcile after all the time has passed; 3) you could reconcile and then you both discover that it's not going to work out because of the elephant in the room or she didn't completely heal and still has some of the MLC traits that will remain permanent; and 4) there is always the possibility after she settles down and back into her own skin, that the new marriage is far better than ever. That's why I always say 50/50. The future is not ours to predict at this time. You are now on her clock, which is very, very slow. You can't rush the process so dig deeper for patience and continue to have faith that will allow you to trust the system.
Stay the course, give her plenty of space and time to heal. Have faith in the process because it does work. Keep the focus on you for now.
Yeah....second to Job's comments on the MLC process.
Mine was 5 years long. I am the lucky few who have come out of it and worked through my chit to be more or less a re-integrated person, if you will.
Some other MLCers are still out in orbit....permanently.
This is not some project management where the PM is able to use ProjectPro to set project timelines and outcomes.
Far from it....toss that idea altogether, CT.
A word to the wise: one of the hallmarks of a MLC is that we tend to mix up timescales. For the longest time, I thought my 7 year old nephew was a 3-year old boy and I was always surprised to see that he was much older than 7 year old.
Time just seems to stand still for us. I cannot tell you why. It was just how my brain functioned at that time.
Don't spend too much time in the kitchen watching and waiting for the water to boil.
Stay the course, give her plenty of space and time to heal. Have faith in the process because it does work. Keep the focus on you for now.
Sooooo, what process would that be your refer to? Not the DB process? Those books barely touch the MLC paradigm.
Thank you for your comments though. If I gave the impression that I was attached to a timeline, it was not intended. The last time her and I were separated it was for 9 years, but we were separated for very different reasons. I can go into it if requested, but it really comes down to geography and technology.
Wonka - you thought a 7 year old was 3? That is truly an example of a mindset. I might guess you and I have a similar line of work from your comments, but perhaps not. Part of my role is as a PM, but I do not view her as one of my projects. In a day by day role at this time and making the plays as best as I can. Feel like I am in secure point of detachment, which still has its highs and lows, but I remain within those boundaries. Good analogy though and very much appreciated.
I should have moved here earlier. So much of what I have gotten thus far helps me understand why some of the things in the newcomer thread kind of fell flat for me.
CT,
Trust the process. The process is DBing. The process is learning to detach and not react to what others say or do in a negative way. The process is to have faith in yourself. The process is to help you help yourself in any situation. It will work if you practice it faithfully. It can and will work in all walks of life and not just for saving marriages. A prime example right here on this forum right now is Lou. Read her threads and you will see just how far she has come in the last year and yes, her h is moving back in w/her.
As for what Wonka mentioned about thinking a 7 year old was 3...that is very, very true. Why? Because the depression is so thick and the person in crisis doesn't realize just how much time has gone by. Many of the mlcers begin to wake up a bit and make comments about their children being a certain age or they purchase toys for their children that they have long ago left behind in Toyland. Time creeps for them. And, one more thing, the MLCer is expecting you, the LBS, to be right where they left you when they entered the crisis. They have absolutely no clue that time is moving faster for you and that life does go on and does not stop and yes, we all do change as time moves along.
So, the first order of business is for you to have faith in yourself. Stay the course, find a way to focus on you and leave your wife to twirl in the wind. Read the detachment thread and dig deeper for patience because she will try your patience along the way. Actions speak louder than words. No matter what you say or do, she is going to do what she needs to do in order to heal.
The future is not ours to predict at this time.
Great advice from Job. DB101 – “live in the moment”. Try not to set any time tables rather take it one day at a time.
This is not some project management where the PM is able to use ProjectPro to set project timelines and outcomes.
Sorry to hijack….. Hey Wonka, what if you use MS Project – is that a better tool? LOL. JK. As a manager of a project office I found your comment hilarious. I hope all is well with you.
The last time her and I were separated it was for 9 years, but we were separated for very different reasons. I can go into it if requested, but it really comes down to geography and technology.
Can you provide some details on the 9 year separation?
I think Job provided a good description of the process. I would only add one other point…one that may have already been stressed to you (it took me a LONG time to get this point)…… DB is really counter intuitive. It usually does not feel natural at first – hence the fake it till you make comments you may have seen.
MLC can be a long road.
The last time her and I were separated it was for 9 years, but we were separated for very different reasons. I can go into it if requested, but it really comes down to geography and technology.
Can you provide some details on the 9 year separation?
I think Job provided a good description of the process. I would only add one other point…one that may have already been stressed to you (it took me a LONG time to get this point)…… DB is really counter intuitive. It usually does not feel natural at first – hence the fake it till you make comments you may have seen.
MLC can be a long road.
Yes, I can. I feel like I may need to hit a reset here, sit at the keyboard and bleed so to speak. I would not accuse of me not being heard as much as I would suggest I am misrepresenting myself so far. Please allow me some time until tomorrow to convey. Please also know - I wish I came to MLC earlier and I really appreciate everyone's help. I cannot tell you how beneficent it is. I did not think MLC was the forum to piss the bed on and I had to wait to get older, now I see it is ok to piss it here, but I am done with that.
Please also know - I wish I came to MLC earlier and I really appreciate everyone's help. I cannot tell you how beneficent it is. I did not think MLC was the forum to piss the bed on and I had to wait to get older, now I see it is ok to piss it here, but I am done with that.
We all get to where we need to be WHEN we need to be there.
If you had come to MLC earlier...you may not have been ready to hear anything that you have so far...
Also, MLC, while it can be an explanation, is not the explanation I would wish on anyone.
Those of us who have been here, walked the depths of hell, and come out the other side (however it looks) will tell you that it is a sad, long, sometimes scary road that we wouldn't wish on our worst enemy.
It is also a saving grace for many people.
You will learn to find the silver lining in things.
I am interested in that other separation story as well.
I hope that you are not in the path of a tropical storm this week at your beach in the south. If you are...stay safe.
Wow! What a story!
Sounds like her mother wanted you to rescue her daughter quite a bit. Did/do you see yourself as the rescuer? Both of you lived life kind of on the edge as teens/early 20's and both of you cheated on others along the way and probably didn't give much thought to how it would hurt those you cheated on. However, as you matured, you grew up and she's still stuck back in the 90's. She has never had to face her issues on her own and now those issues have come back to haunt her. Will history repeat itself? Maybe, but what I see is that she continues to hit the break wall and hasn't learned the lessons that life is providing to her and until she does, she will continue to repeat them over and over. Hopefully she'll hit the brick wall hard enough to make her focus on herself and deal w/her issues.
I am so sorry for all of the pain that you have endured over the years. Let's hope and pray she grows up and becomes the mature woman that she is meant to be.
Wow! What a story!
Sounds like her mother wanted you to rescue her daughter quite a bit. Did/do you see yourself as the rescuer? Both of you lived life kind of on the edge as teens/early 20's and both of you cheated on others along the way and probably didn't give much thought to how it would hurt those you cheated on. However, as you matured, you grew up and she's still stuck back in the 90's. She has never had to face her issues on her own and now those issues have come back to haunt her. Will history repeat itself? Maybe, but what I see is that she continues to hit the break wall and hasn't learned the lessons that life is providing to her and until she does, she will continue to repeat them over and over. Hopefully she'll hit the brick wall hard enough to make her focus on herself and deal w/her issues.
Thanks job. You are 100% accurate on the above. Let me just add the end of the story as it seems some stuff remains open to the panel...
Thanks for sharing CT1118. A very different story than mine except in one important point. The confusion about what our W were wanting / intending with OM when confronted is the same.
CT
I have quite a few comments. I want to thank you for sharing your story. Look for my comments much later on tonight.
CT,
Thank you for sharing. Reliving your situation isn't easy, but it will help us help you along the way. Like, eric, I need just a wee bit of time to think about it and provide some comments that may help you.
Thank you all. I did post a lot today, would not have told this story had it not been requested. I did not feel able to explain the 9 years apart without providing for/hind sight. I will hold off on more. Looking forward to what I am going to hear.
I had contact with her tonight and I have a question about an happening. As well, from the notes I made on other threads, I have a single question as well. Again, will wait though. Don't want the stuff above left behind due to rapid fire writing.
CT
Thank you again for taking the time to share your story. If I had any doubt that your W is having a crisis, your story eliminated them. It looks like you both have a ton of things to work through. What I gathered from reading your post was that you had the typical codependent/enabling/unhealthy relationship. She needed a knight to save her and you gladly accepted that role. The deeper issue that will need to be addressed is WHY. Why did you accept some of this? Why did you (maybe you still do) think that some of the behavior were/are healthy. If you are anything like me, chances are YOU probably do/did not understand what a truly healthy relationship is.
Question: What does LOVE mean to YOU? What does it look like? How do you give it? How do you receive it? What does a healthy relationship look like to you?
I was barely 18, she was 17. She sat next to me and we began speaking, hit it off right away.
You both were kids when you met. Neither of you knew who you were.
Eventually, she dumped me without any explanation.
Early signs of someone who has issues to work through.
She began very self-destructive behavior right away: promiscuity, drugs, alcohol, job hopping. I did the same.
Given this ^^^^^
We would still see each other, we cheated on others we were dating with each other feeling like it was justifiable because we were in love.
Why on earth did you do this^^^ - You both cheated on others to be with each other. Why did YOU do it? Was the attraction to much for you to say no? Was the sex that good? Understanding why you went along with this WILL HELP YOU.
Have you read anything on codependency? If not, I suggest that you do. Codependent No more is an excellent book that you should pick up and read.
I had a similar relationship in my past. Something that honestly, I needed to resolve in order for me to truly move on. It seems that the history between you and your wife has mostly been an unhealthy codependent one.
You both seem to move on from relationship to relationship – yet still maintained on some secret level communication. Why? Why do YOU think YOU did this?
I wondered if either of you knew what a healthy relationship ever looked like. Oh, and hey man, as I am writing this, I WAS YOU at one point.
It is almost like you both were addicted to each other and FTR, addiction is NOT love.
She told me that off of one of our early 20 year old visits, I had gotten her pregnant and she was going to have it, but she lost the child in a miscarriage.
Can you see how unhealthy this is ^^^^ She tells you 4 years later that she was pregnant but had a miscarriage. Why? What purpose would it serve? Honestly, it seems like manipulation to me. It seems like she wanted her knight back.
Question: Have you done any reading on boundaries?
Post from Job - However, as you matured, you grew up and she's still stuck back in the 90's. She has never had to face her issues on her own and now those issues have come back to haunt her. Will history repeat itself? Maybe, but what I see is that she continues to hit the break wall and hasn't learned the lessons that life is providing to her and until she does, she will continue to repeat them over and over.
This ^^^^ read this several times. Job summarized this 1,000 better than I ever could. I would add, that in addition to HER (your W)…..I actually wonder if YOU also have ever really dealt with some of YOUR issues.
CHOICE
We all have CHOICES…..
Healthy is someone OWNING their CHOICES…..
Rescuing is NOT HEALTHY. And let’s not confuse saving someone from a burning building with
enabling someone and then stepping in and NOT allowing them the freedom to live their CHOICES.
Your W appears to have a pattern…..
She and She alone can break the cycle.
DO you agree that you to have a pattern?
Are you ready to break the cycle?
You cannot fix HER.
And the best way to get her back…..
The best way to help…..
Is to lead….
By example….
The best way IMO, is the break the cycle….to become a man that any women would be crazy to leave….
To find out why YOU do and think the way you do.
So start by answering the questions above…..
Start by reading “codependant no more”
Do you like to read? If so, pick up “let go now – embracing detachment”
If there was ever a time buddy to dig and dig deep (grab a shovel, put on your hard hat) now is the time!
I had contact with her tonight and I have a question about an happening.
I have a full day at work tomorrow, but if you need me, just shout out….a few of the posted know how to get a hold of me.
I’ll leave you with this…… 2 quotes from Batman…..yep Batman. I love Batman….
1) The night is darkest just before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming.
2) You traveled the world... Now
you must journey inwards... to what you really fear... it's inside you... there is no turning back.
If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, you become something else entirely. Are you ready to begin?Peace,
...seems I am in for a long day just answering these...I will hold out for some more responses. But awesome sir.
CT
Eric's questions are going to supersede any post I make to you. In this I bow to his wisdom and experience. I think you may have just found your mentor.
I have met Eric twice in my life and I can honestly say he is one of the best friends I have the honor of having. He is the one you want for this.
Hey CT,
I've been a silent lurker, and I am on a board , but I had took a peek yesterday while waiting for some friends and caught up a little. First, thanks for sharing that story about how you met and the break in your R, because I think it says a lot.
On thing that really stuck out at me, and it's all semantics, but maybe not a MLC. Sounds like repeated patterns of behavior over the years, the codependency, destructive behaviors, the running from problems.......Seems to be a theme since you guys were "kids" The interesting thing I have noticed, being married (and divorced) very young myself, is sometimes one partner grows up and learns better coping mechanisms and becomes more independent, and the other doesn't. Or sometime neither partner really ever had a chance to figure who they are independently or how to cope and grow together. Either way, the people here on the MLC forum will be able to help you. because MLC, WAS, whatever it may be..... kind of the same plan of action for YOURSELF.
I am from back in the days of these great posters. Eric is a close friend, and a big brother to me. And honestly, one of the most emotionally mature men I have the pleasure of knowing.
Answer those questions he asked.
I've learned much from being a divorcee at the age of 29 with a baby. While it stunk, it made me who I am today. The one huge gift I got was the ability to look inward and get real with myself. The hardest thing to do, but the best thing to do.
excuse all my typos, I had to keep hiding my post and pretending like I was working:)
CT,
Please get the book that Eric suggested. It is an excellent read and one that will open your eyes to co-dependency. Also, do an internet search of the topic if you don't have to get the book today...but it's a must read.
Like Jack, I am going to step back just a bit, because Eric's post hits home on all points w/respect to your updated posting of the missing years.
It's like I mentioned yesterday, people will make mistakes and learn from them. There are some that have to continue to hit the brick wall over and over again and this will continue until they finally learn the lessons that need to be learned.
You didn't break your wife, therefore you can't fix her. You've been trying to fix her for years and guess what? She's not done one thing to fix herself. Why? Because you've been there to fix everything and make her feel better. Let me ask you this...how do you feel when you fix things for her? Do feel proud and satisfied? Do you ever get frustrated and tired of fixing things that she should have been doing w/herself and life? If you say yes to these, then it's time to stop playing the handyman to her problem. Your wife will never grow up if she's not allowed to make mistakes, hit bottom and figure things out.
This is your time to figure out YOU! This is your time to figure out who you are and what you want out of life. This is the time to ask yourself some very hard questions and look in the mirror and decide what you need to change to be a better you. BTW, those changes need to become permanent and not just to woe your wife back. Do the things that you never had the opportunity to do before marrying your wife. Heck, I'm sure there are plenty of hobbies and projects that you could get involved in and enjoy.
Come here to vent, ask questions, seek advice and yes, we even will challenge you on what you post. But know this, we are a family here and we are all here to help one another. As Ginger pointed out, MLC, WAS, or whatever, ...the action plan is the same...give her space, leave her alone unless it's an absolute emergency and live your life to the fullest. Learn to love yourself and enjoy your own company. Do things w/your children that can be fun and yet, a learning experience too.
CT....
Wanted to swing by to say "hi" and saw that there are some really good people guiding you here. I really do not have anything to add here.
The MLC folks are a really neat bunch, aren't they?
Hey Eric...saw your shout out to me in some other thread. Life's real good to me.
How's your Latin life? Hot n' spicy?!
(CT, yeah...Eric has a double life as a hot Latin guy in a pink tutu. He just left the asylum)
I’ll leave you with this…… 2 quotes from Batman…..yep Batman. I love Batman….
Batman...really? Where were you when I was taking the freakin' Ethics course?
The only help I had were two other boneheads
CT,
I agree with Ginger about the patterns...
You don't have to wait to post whatever it is you want to post...
We all know how to scroll...
Ok, I am ready to begin Eric. Very impressed with what others have said of you. I am going to do my best, so please if I overlook/miss a question it will not be intentional, so please remind.
- Why did I accept the role of knight? Honestly, I never felt like I did. Looking back, I still do not feel like I did. However, if to others reading my sitch that I did, than all I can say is that I had no idea. I will give it more thought.
- Why did I accept what part? Possible I may inadvertently answer this question in my response to the next...
- Why did I think some of these behaviors were healthy? I do not recall stating that I did. I can say that while I did not think behavior was healthy, I also did not think it was unhealthy; in other words, I did not think about mental health until I began with an IC in Feb 2016. In my opening post I put some things about me. I could do a whole post on my issues. You said it - did not know what healthy was, and you don't know what you don't know.
- What does love mean to me? May not be the most pragmatic of answers, but Hesse is my favorite author: “One must find the source within one's own Self, one must possess it. Everything else was seeking -- a detour, an error.”
-What does love look like to me? Like the water in a river. Deep and shallow, turbulent and calm, narrow and wide, moving around rocks, moving over sand, transporting objects, flowing and frozen, dynamic and static, able to dry out of existence and able to return.
- How do I give love? Dmn these are simple questions, but challenging. I am introverted and have type II ADHD, but I am working on overcoming the detrimental pieces of each. The expression of emotion does not come easy for me. I try to respect, to understand, to show compassion, to express, to be silent, to allow, to forgive, to understand. But when I truly love someone, I am able to give of myself entire and so few have ever gotten that from me. However, I am fallible from the above and I can and have lost sight what I should be giving.
- How do I receive love? Might depend on the person or the place. An example, from my dog it is without doubt, from my son it is with purity, from my W it is with patience, from my mother it is with hesitance. However, I think you would understand if I said these adjectives are continually evolving.
- What does a healthy relationship look like to me? I would say one that is based upon understanding of both parties of themselves as individuals and of each other. My son and I are pretty healthy now.
- Yes, were both kids when we met and true, we did not know who we were.
- I am not so sure I can give you her dumping me at 19/20 years old as an early sign of much. In hindsight and context of the story, it appears clear. But if women dumped men with explanation on the regular the whole "its not you, its me" thing wouldn't be a thing. She was not the first or the last to do that to me around that age, as is the case with many young people.
- Why did I cheat on others with her? Because I was in love with her, because I was not in love with the others, and the bottom line mostly is because I was not a good person at that time in my life.
- Was the attraction too much for me to say no? No. There were a number of times both of us said no to sleeping with each other over the course of that story, had I put in every detail, I would be publishing my first novel right now.
- Was the sex that good? It was always good with her, but I would not say that was the center of our world with each other. Our relationship did not begin based upon sex, but we both always enjoyed having it with each other.
- Have I read on co-dependency? I did read some websites, some psych journal articles, but no books. I am interested in the book you offer. However, and with due respect, I will have to wait a few months to buy. I just spent $400.00 on my graduate texts today - that hurt.
- Why do I think we move through relationships but remain in secret communication with each other? Well, because of our childhoods in short. Because we both have always been in love with each other, but neither of us never really understood or knew how to love in a way which was healthy. Because we both learned that we were able to destroy others without much regard for their feelings. Because we both want to be with each other and want to figure out a way. Because we both grew up thinking we were incapable of loving others and meeting each other tossed a wrench into that idea. Because we both could not escape the spectre of our adverse childhood experiences. Because we both have trust issues. Because we both are selfish. Because we both believe at our cores we are good people but have not learned how to stop hurting others. Because we both lacked self control. Lastly, because until I walked into that IC office in Feb 2016 I had never sought a permanent way to be entirely better as a human being.
- We were both addicted to FTR: you did not pose this as a question, but for clarity...I did not see this in the abbreviations page. I am guessing first time relationship? If yes, than neither of us were each others first relationship or first sexual encounter.
- Could I see how unhealthy it was for her to tell me about a miscarriage 4 years later? Yes, actually that one I did see immediately and recall being quite upset at the initial news. Why she said it, I only know what she told me: which was it scared her, it made her feel like less than a woman, guilty, that I would think she could not have kids, and angry at herself. I do not think that is much different of an explanation from many women who have had them. Plus, were discussing our history when it came up.
- I never knew what boundaries were until I came here on 07.05.16, since I have read a whole lot on them.
- Under the job comments: I do believe job was 100% correct, I had identified that on my own, but it is good to hear others say it.
- Do I agree that I have a pattern? Yes, I have identified it.
- Am I ready to break the pattern? Yes and I have been doing that. I have certainly broken it in myself. My GAL's are solid and permanent. My commitment to remaining drug free is still as strong as the day I stopped - over 6 months w/out narcotics. I continue w/ my IC. I no longer help her or make the offers. I have gone through NC w/ her. I do not try to fix her. I focus mostly on myself and also on my son. I do hope she seeks the same level of help for herself 1. because I want her to feel and be healthy and 2. because I would like my son to have a healthy mother. But, I do accept those 2 things may never happen. I do feel detached. I do still love her. I am able to resist her, which has been tested and proven to myself. I do still feel love for her. I would still have her back, but I know that is far off if ever.
- Do I like to read? Yes, but the ADHD never allowed it. Takes a long time for me to read a book. I am able to now only because of my treatments. As a kid, the only thing I could read was comic books. And yeah dude, I do love the Hll out of some Batman. And why not, a troubled childhood becomes a fighter for justice on his own terms? Batman also had some significant R issues as I recall.
You put a great deal of time into my stuff. I really and truly appreciate it.
Please - I require a moderator's assistance. The internet is an amazing place. My story is quite specific and I do not wish it to escape into the ether. I believe what I sought from posting it is well underway, so...
Please remove/delete/wipe my posts #2700949 at 0703AM and #2700996 at 0943AM
Greatly appreciated.
CT118,
I take my hat off to you for acknowledging that your childhood and your wife's had and is influencing your behavior constantly when it comes to relationships. I did learn it myself after meditating and thinking about it for a long time.
It's a like a machine takes over our bodies when we are under heavy stress and we make the same decisions that our fathers, if we are men, or our mothers, if we are women, made when we were little.
I wish I had parents that got along very well and that showed me how healthy relationships work, instead I had very litigious parents who never divorced as of today.
What can we do about it? Maybe the midlife crisis is not the problem, maybe it's the cure. Maybe separation is the cure, maybe divorce is the cure. By becoming individuals again we can see who is really the source of the problem, is it ourselves or is it our partner?
I think that people like us who came from troubled families should live separately, I think it's best because we need to heal from the wounds we received during our childhood and because we don't want to hurt our partner. I think that LAT (living apart together) is best for people who come from troubled families like you and I. This is what I would like to achieve with the mother of my children at some point, a loving relationship where each one of us has his own space and we live separately.
By becoming individuals again we can see who is really the source of the problem, is it ourselves or is it our partner?
My behavior was most certainly part of the problem. Not the cause. And it did not cause her A, which on my worst days now I simply find annoying and on my best days i don't pay it attention. I am working on my problems in a new and permanent way and I am excited. I am watching her work on her problems in an old and temporary way and I am disappoint. I have left the light on...
I think that people like us who came from troubled families should live separately, I think it's best because we need to heal from the wounds we received during our childhood and because we don't want to hurt our partner. I think that LAT (living apart together) is best for people who come from troubled families like you and I. This is what I would like to achieve with the mother of my children at some point, a loving relationship where each one of us has his own space and we live separately.
Actually, if or when or if her and I find a way to be healthy and reconcile LAT is exactly what I would want. I am very familiar w/ that concept as it is what I had first proposed to her when we were discussing S and I did not fully appreciate the fullness of her current situation.
I have realized from the start of this stuff that I would use it to my advantage. Now I got my own apartment. I do not ever want to own a house again. It [censored] up time your time, it wastes money, it restricts mobility, and it abuses energy. All IMO of course.
Ohhhhh commmeeee ooonnnnn! I used the word s u c k s legitimately in a sentence as if one were using a vacuum cleaner, not as if someone had something in their mouth. Wow, just wow.
CT
Sorry for the hijack but before I respond to you I have a few responses to a few others.
J3B,
I have met Eric twice in my life and I can honestly say he is one of the best friends I have the honor of having.
Thanks man! Love ya too. By the way….it’s been a long day in the office, I think it’s a Laguvulin night.
Ginger1,
Eric is a close friend, and a big brother to me.
Chit, now I’m gonna cry.
Wonka,
How's your Latin life? Hot n' spicy?!
(CT, yeah...Eric has a double life as a hot Latin guy in a pink tutu. He just left the asylum)
I wouldn’t say HOT n Spicy..I would say OLD and tired. LOL. On a serious note, life is good. Had several nice vacations (China Lake Maine, Greenville South Carolina, Colorado and next up Otterbanks). Oh, I traded the pink tutu for a lilac one. Lilac is in style now. 
Cat,
The only help I had were two other boneheads
I’ve notice a pattern with the use of the word “bonehead”. Can you describe to me what a “bonehead” is? Hehehehe
Sorry again for the hijack CT,
Ok, I am ready to begin Eric. Very impressed with what others have said of you. I am going to do my best,
So get out the shovel cause you will be digging. As for what the others said, they are my friends, they have seen me through some very tough times. Honestly, I am just regular guy who finally decided to do the hard work and face some my own demons. As for doing your best…that is all you can ever do and really all you should ever expect from yourself. “Your best”. The trick IMO, is to learn how to NOT lie to YOURSELF. Once you get to a place where you can be honest with yourself – thing start to fall into place. You may not always like the answer you give yourself and the answer the questions you probably have, are really inside of YOU.
Make this about YOU, make this process about YOU and regardless of the outcome – You’ll be a winner!
Why did I accept the role of knight? Honestly, I never felt like I did. Looking back, I still do not feel like I did.
Have you ever gotten into trouble when you were a kid? Have your parents ever let you fall and learn from your mistakes? Read your post. What is apparent is that whenever your W falls or gets into some chit, you are called. Her mother even wanted you to fix stuff for her. Right now, is the time for YOU to give her the space to work on her chit, if she can. I suspect that your afraid that you may loose her. That she may find (rather jump) to the next guy. Here is the thing…You and only YOU can change the pattern for YOUR life.
Why did I think some of these behaviors were healthy? I do not recall stating that I did. I can say that while I did not think behavior was healthy, I also did not think it was unhealthy; in other words, I did not think about mental health until I began with an IC in Feb 2016.
A very wise women (named URWorthy) once said something to me that finally clicked…… as people we do what we saw or were taught to do. As you mentioned you did not think it the behavior was unhealthy – in part, because I think you never knew what healthy was. Brother, what you had was NOT healthy. Think about it….. you both cheated on your respective partners with each other. Now that it is being done to YOU, how do you feel? Like chit I assume. Cheating to be with each other (several times) is NOT healthy. Then again, if you are an open relationship – I is. I doubt you guys have an open relationship.
You said it - did not know what healthy was, and you don't know what you don't know.
Yep…and now that YOU know better YOU can do better. Remember this, burn it in your mind so IF the opportunity appears again, that you do not repeat the pattern.
- What does love mean to me? May not be the most pragmatic of answers, but Hesse is my favorite author: “One must find the source within one's own Self, one must possess it. Everything else was seeking -- a detour, an error.”
Look at what Hesse wrote…. “within one’s own self – one must posses it”. Think about that….
You really need to love yourself FIRST before you can love another. Are the actions that YOU have done over your life a reflection of how YOU love YOURSELF? Can you look in the mirror and say with full conviction that YOU LOVE YOURSELF? If not, then 1) you have work to do and 2) how could you love your W. That said, how can YOU love yourself? What do YOU NEED to FEEL loved (sex with your W is not the answer)? FTR, every person is different and honestly, I did not know the answer to these questions UNTIL I was 41 years old. I did not have good role models, no one really taught me. I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. I now know better so I do better. Doing nothing was EASY. Doing the work is HARD. This chit is not going to come overnight man.
-What does love look like to me? Like the water in a river. Deep and shallow, turbulent and calm, narrow and wide, moving around rocks, moving over sand, transporting objects, flowing and frozen, dynamic and static, able to dry out of existence and able to return.
Okay..honestly, what book did you take this out of? Or did you pull it off the web? Hey it sound great and sexy but is that what love really looks like to you? I have a funny feeling that love looks a little different than the above. For example, one way I see love is when someone is compassionate towards me. Another way is in how they treat me, how they give me the space I need to be me, how they ACCEPT me for me. Another is seeing Mach1 in a pink tutu – now that is love (psst…don’t tell him I emailed you the pictures). LOL on a serious note, take some more time, think of ACTIONS that you would consider love.
- How do I give love? Dmn these are simple questions, but challenging. I am introverted and have type II ADHD, but I am working on overcoming the detrimental pieces of each. The expression of emotion does not come easy for me. I try to respect, to understand, to show compassion, to express, to be silent, to allow, to forgive, to understand. But when I truly love someone, I am able to give of myself entire and so few have ever gotten that from me.
Being an introvert of having ADHD IMO, does not impact how you give love. Once again, think of your responses in the form of ACTIONS. Let’s say you were dating J3B and you loved him, how would you show him. Say you and I are friends, how would you show me that you loved me. Here is a simple example: I was not always the greatest friend, I would not really show my friends how much I loved them. Now, I do things like make sure I call every so often, I will make arrangements to meet for dinner, I make them a priority. So, can you take another crack at answering the question?
- Yes, were both kids when we met and true, we did not know who we were.
Think about this ^^^^^ , so do you think your W is going to figure out who she is and become healthy overnight? I think you know the answer to that question. The bigger question is what are YOU going to do about it? Are you going to sit still and just wait for her to come back OR are you going to lead by example and 1) fix your chit 2) become the best man you can be 3) respect her and her choices while living YOUR life.
- I am not so sure I can give you her dumping me at 19/20 years old as an early sign of much. In hindsight and context of the story, it appears clear. But if women dumped men with explanation on the regular the whole "its not you, its me" thing wouldn't be a thing. She was not the first or the last to do that to me around that age, as is the case with many young people.
You may be right; however, I would like to point one thing out – noticed how you sometime DEFEND her? Why is that? Psst…read the CODEPENDANT NO MORE book. I remember defending my ex. I remember explaining to everyone that it was MY FAULT that she was out polishing some dude knob. The reality: I played a role in the demise of my M as did she. That said, I will not OWN her CHOICES. I may be wrong buddy…but I want you to think about how often you DEFEND her CHOICES – why is that?
- Why did I cheat on others with her? Because I was in love with her, because I was not in love with the others, and the bottom line mostly is because I was not a good person at that time in my life.
So that’s it? You just were not a good person at that time? I think the reason is bigger than that. Just think about it.
- Have I read on co-dependency? I did read some websites, some psych journal articles, but no books. I am interested in the book you offer. However, and with due respect, I will have to wait a few months to buy. I just spent $400.00 on my graduate texts today - that hurt.
Check Youtube, they may have clips of the book. Alternatively, I will purchase it for you as a gift (and I am not kidding). So mods, if there is a way for me to do that, please let me know how i.e. CADET, let me know how.
Because we both have always been in love with each other, but neither of us never really understood or knew how to love in a way which was healthy.
So is unhealthy love, really love? Here is an example: If I came home every day and slapped my wife (we know that is not healthy) is that really love. My other point, is how can you really “love” if you are not sure what it really is. IMO, we base “love” on just how we “feel”. Love is really actions.
Because we both grew up thinking we were incapable of loving others. Because we both could not escape the spectre of our adverse childhood experiences. Because we both have trust issues. Because we both are selfish. Because we both believe at our cores we are good people but have not learned how to stop hurting others. Because we both lacked self control.
First thing first….notice in your post how you use “we”. Look at the context in which you are responding – in a small way you are defending or explaining HOW she feels or felt. This is not about
HER right now, it is about
YOU. You really do not KNOW HOW SHE FEELS. You may think you do and in some cases you may be correct; however, you really do not KNOW FOR SURE SINCE YOU ARE NOT HER.
Stop making this about HER!
FTR, I did the same towards my ex. I explained how she felt, I explained why she did x or y. honestly, that was a guess. It also showed me a pattern that needed to change. I needed to stop thinking or ASSUMING for my ex and anyone else for the matter. I needed to start OWNING my CHIT.
- I never knew what boundaries were until I came here on 07.05.16, since I have read a whole lot on them.
I am glad you now know about boundaries. Please do not make the same mistake I made for a loooooonnnggg time. I think J3B put it best….
You can use boundaries as a SWORD or SHIELD.
I recommend that you use them as a SHIELD.
Here is an example:
Example 1: Your son is rushed to the hospital. You DO NOT CALL HER since you know she is with OM. Your excuse is that YOUR BOUNDARY was no contact.
Example 2: She is charging up the joint credit cards to the point of maxing them out. Your boundary conversation with her is that if she continues to use the charge cards you will have her name removed from the card. Next day, she goes out and buys a boat on your Amex. You call Amex and have her removed from the account.
Example 1 is a sword, example 2 is a shield.
Takes a long time for me to read a book.
Try Audiobooks. They work pretty good for me.
Batman also had some significant R issues as I recall.
He’s Batman though so it is okay. LOL.
Oh and btw, if you wanted a quick summary of me……
The quick answer is look in the mirror. I was just like you. A bit more detail.
1) In and out of group homes as a kid
2) Dad left 20 bucks on the table when I was born. I actually still have no idea who he really is.
3) Mom married 5 or 6 times (I lost count)
4) My dad is supposedly my aunt (my mom's sister) boyfriend at the time – yet no one really knows for sure. Hey just imagine what those family christmas look like.
5) Lock up – did crimes, shot people
6) Drug addict
7) Control freak
8) Did now know what the hell love was let alone a healthy R.
9) 3 kids
10) Ex “love of my life” that popped up. Thank God I ended it!
11) Fairly successful professionally, which helped me never deal with chit.
12) And yeah...I too wanted my ex to hurry the F up with her MLC, I mean chit she did deal with my issues for a while, least I could do was give her a month or two.
So I’ll close with this….. Hi my name is Eric, I am a former control freak, drug addict, who needed to learn how to be man. Nice to meet ya.
I’ll say it again…..YOU and YOU ALONE DECIDE WHO YOU WANT TO BE.
I hope this helps brother. I’ll check on you tomorrow.
God Bless,
Eric
Eric,
That was an outstanding posting.
CT,
J3B, Mach, Eric, Cadet and all of the other posters that have been posting to you came along after I was here for a while. I can honestly say that they all have grown by leaps and bounds. Why? Because they posted, they listened (at times didn't want to hear what was said), they did the hard, necessary work to work on themselves. It took a while because we all come here trying to find the magic potion to bring our spouses back...but at the end of the day, we come to realize that we can only work on ourselves. We finally figure out that some of us are controllers, co-dependents, etc., and the biggest culprit...we are fixers. We want to fix our spouses. Unfortunately, we can't.
Take time and truly listen to what the posters are saying. If it helps, print off the postings and read and re-read them again and again. Make your journey about YOU! I know you can do it! Leave your wife to her own journey and if she hits the brick wall a thousand times over, don't rescue her. She needs to learn the lessons w/o your help.
Hang in there!
Eric,
BUYING the book for him...while nice...is fixing...
Do we need a crash course?
CT,
You are in Grad school. You have access to a library...
Get the book...
Good point Cat. Thanks for pointing that out.
Good point Cat. Thanks for pointing that out.
Eric,
You have taken so much time on my posts and I cannot thank you enough. Also, I have no problem with the hijack - it actually makes me think (which is really an assumption) as if you came out of semi-retirement to respond to me (I base this off of some replies felt like a few had not had the chance to communicate w/ you in a bit. I sir, am honored.
I cannot reply to all, I tried and it was just going on and on...
There were a few points in there where I felt you were being quite dismissive, but I do believe this was not your intent. My definition of love was my own, I did not take it from a book r the internet. You ask a creative introverted mind a question like that, the answer you get may be abstract, but that does not make it less true for the respondent. Also, ADHD and introversion have ruined me, I have gone to great lengths to work beyond them in the past 6 months and am proud of the progress. Rest assured though, this not only guides how I loved in the past, but how I am friends, how I am a son, how I am a father, how I am a leader, etc. But I am awake and it will be a challenge, sometimes minute by minute, but I refuse to let it govern my future.
You want to buy me that book. I do not know what to say. That is so incredibly kind and I have never been good at understanding where kindness comes from. If there is a way to contact me outside of here, I would prefer we begin with that. I have multiple emails which I almost never use, I would be fine posting one here that is nearly defunct for initial contact. That is an incredible offer you have made.
Love, healthy or otherwise, is love. To meet your example head on, my mother did slap me everyday, she still loved me, her love had nothing to do with the chaos in her mind which ruined her capacity for a healthy handling of her pain. So how can you "really love" if you don't know what love is? Love is intrinsic even if one does not understand the extrinsic part of it. Love is dynamic and not static. Love is a flow, like our very breath. The cause of something is rarely a single event, but more likely a series of events which leads to an event horizon.
Love is a colloquialism and germane to an individual, such as "I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is." And that line comes from one of the most dysfunctional and unhealthy love stories all times, yet it kicked America's heart in the throat because of it's purity. I am not saying I identify with this as an example of me, but I am using it to provide a digestible alternative to your theory.
Hi Eric, my name is CT1118, I am a recovering narcotics addict with multiple learning disabilities who needed to learn how to be a man. And I happy we can be friends. And I really and truly appreciate what you are doing to help me. And, that was all a story of my past, I am detached - but only at the beginning of that detachment.
PS - Here is another understanding of love, I think you will recognize it... "I don't, I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No. You... you... complete me."
Eric,
That was an outstanding posting.
CT,
J3B, Mach, Eric, Cadet and all of the other posters that have been posting to you came along after I was here for a while. I can honestly say that they all have grown by leaps and bounds. Why? Because they posted, they listened (at times didn't want to hear what was said), they did the hard, necessary work to work on themselves. It took a while because we all come here trying to find the magic potion to bring our spouses back...but at the end of the day, we come to realize that we can only work on ourselves. We finally figure out that some of us are controllers, co-dependents, etc., and the biggest culprit...we are fixers. We want to fix our spouses. Unfortunately, we can't.
Take time and truly listen to what the posters are saying. If it helps, print off the postings and read and re-read them again and again. Make your journey about YOU! I know you can do it! Leave your wife to her own journey and if she hits the brick wall a thousand times over, don't rescue her. She needs to learn the lessons w/o your help.
Hang in there!
job, you are all amazing. I am here to do the hard work, here to understand. When I don't seem to understand, appear argumentative, or contrary, I hope you know it is a process I go through to arrive at understanding. For example, in my reply to eric, the things I did not comment on were the things I heard loud and clear and I processed. What I did comment on, I felt I had to say, but not a word of it meant rejection of what was proposed. So please, I hope no one here ever mistakes my positions if they disagree as me being indignant.
I also know that I can never thank you all enough and trust that my return of gratitude will be a presence here one day when I am you (as in all of you) 2/5/10 years from know helping others in the way I am being helped.
I have multiple emails which I almost never use, I would be fine posting one here that is nearly defunct for initial contact.
No don't do that, it is against the TOS.
I don't need you or Eric getting in trouble with the authorities.
Although I know that Eric doesn't care.
And Eric, nope I have no power on the MLC forum and can not get anyones contact info other than Virginia.
As a point of info I like Cat04 idea
You have access to a library...
Get the book...
I learned a lot about the library system in my time here.
It is an amazing place.
Eric,
BUYING the book for him...while nice...is fixing...
Do we need a crash course?
CT,
You are in Grad school. You have access to a library...
Get the book...
meh. Funny though. Eric - as I said in my post, that was an incredibly nice offer you made. Only I can fix me. You can buy me a beer or a sandwich one day I hope. If you do make it to the outer banks, let's just say I'm close. So that's out there.
cat04 - sometimes the answer is right under our noses isn't it. I do indeed have a powerful level of library access. Thanks for pointing out the obvious that I overlooked.
- Why did I think some of these behaviors were healthy? I do not recall stating that I did. I can say that while I did not think behavior was healthy, I also did not think it was unhealthy; in other words, I did not think about mental health until I began with an IC in Feb 2016. In my opening post I put some things about me. I could do a whole post on my issues. You said it - did not know what healthy was, and you don't know what you don't know.
You are correct, and once that you see, you can't un-see..
So what is different now ?
How are you different ?
How do you
react differently ???
How do you
act differently...???
- What does love mean to me? May not be the most pragmatic of answers, but Hesse is my favorite author: “One must find the source within one's own Self, one must possess it. Everything else was seeking -- a detour, an error.”
Yep...except that YOU aren't married to Hesse...
Sounds like an easy question huh ???
Yet it seems to take down the noblest of men when asked...
-What does love look like to me? Like the water in a river. Deep and shallow, turbulent and calm, narrow and wide, moving around rocks, moving over sand, transporting objects, flowing and frozen, dynamic and static, able to dry out of existence and able to return.
- How do I give love? Dmn these are simple questions, but challenging. I am introverted and have type II ADHD, but I am working on overcoming the detrimental pieces of each. The expression of emotion does not come easy for me. I try to respect, to understand, to show compassion, to express, to be silent, to allow, to forgive, to understand. But when I truly love someone, I am able to give of myself entire and so few have ever gotten that from me. However, I am fallible from the above and I can and have lost sight what I should be giving.
- How do I receive love? Might depend on the person or the place. An example, from my dog it is without doubt, from my son it is with purity, from my W it is with patience, from my mother it is with hesitance. However, I think you would understand if I said these adjectives are continually evolving.
I am not convinced, that you know what any of these mean...
And that is okay for now...
It's also the reason that he asked you the question.
Have you read the 5LL ??
Feeling loved and giving love, are at your core.
They are based on how you think, act, speak, etc..
Core issues don't typically ebb and flow like feelings do...
Feelings of love are often fleeting at best...true deep love however, differs greatly...
- I am not so sure I can give you her dumping me at 19/20 years old as an early sign of much. In hindsight and context of the story, it appears clear. But if women dumped men with explanation on the regular the whole "its not you, its me" thing wouldn't be a thing. She was not the first or the last to do that to me around that age, as is the case with many young people.
Why did she dump you at 19/20 ?
Cause I am thinking, that the FIRST sign of this being a dysfunctional relationship, which appears to be...
On and Off
On again
Off again
On again
Off again
A relationship where you BOTH avoid and run away from things rather than to face things...
MAY have started with this...
- Why do I think we move through relationships but remain in secret communication with each other? Well, because of our childhoods in short. Because we both have always been in love with each other, but neither of us never really understood or knew how to love in a way which was healthy. Because we both learned that we were able to destroy others without much regard for their feelings. Because we both want to be with each other and want to figure out a way. Because we both grew up thinking we were incapable of loving others and meeting each other tossed a wrench into that idea. Because we both could not escape the spectre of our adverse childhood experiences. Because we both have trust issues. Because we both are selfish. Because we both believe at our cores we are good people but have not learned how to stop hurting others. Because we both lacked self control. Lastly, because until I walked into that IC office in Feb 2016 I had never sought a permanent way to be entirely better as a human being.
So how do you stop that cycle ??
How close are you to accepting 100% of your half in this ?
I also see a LOT of "we" in there...
Sure, you both sukced at this relationship.
However...YOU are the one here now...
I asked you very similar questions the other day on RSG's thread up in Newcomers...
You avoided them then, and I see a lot of avoidance in this response to the freakin Rican....
Just my opinion from reading what you write...
I see you posting here, yet not really taking much of this to heart. Because you believe that eventually, SHE will "snap out of it" , and want to come back. Just like has ALWAYS happened in the past...
There is a difference, BIG difference between DBing, and just waiting it out...
Which one are you really ???
Eric,
BUYING the book for him...while nice...is fixing...
Do we need a crash course?
CT,
You are in Grad school. You have access to a library...
Get the book...
meh. Funny though. Eric - as I said in my post, that was an incredibly nice offer you made. Only I can fix me. You can buy me a beer or a sandwich one day I hope. If you do make it to the outer banks, let's just say I'm close. So that's out there.
cat04 - sometimes the answer is right under our noses isn't it. I do indeed have a powerful level of library access. Thanks for pointing out the obvious that I overlooked.
Hey, don't meh the lesson. Sometimes we don't see this crap in ourselves and we ALL need reminders sometimes. I just love to pick on E...
He says I remind him of his mom.
Another book to get while you are taking advantage of your library resources...
Five Love Languages.
It is a quick read...
You can actually apply it to your son as well.
This is more along the lines of where E was going when he asked you how you show and receive love.
Basic behavioral stuff.
CT118,
AND I certainly hope others see this as well;
There were a few points in there where I felt you were being quite dismissive, but I do believe this was not your intent.
We are seldom dismissive of the posters, we can and will be fully dismissive of superficial, "I know...but" justification of bad habits, or glossing over of answers types of posts.
We want you guys to put as much effort in as we are...with the understanding that you guys are also going through hell so there is some lee way.
Eric won't be dismissive of you, but he might be about a portion of your post.
"I wish she would just listen to me"
After awhile, and yes while it is a vent...we tend to swat those down. I wish I had a pony.
We only get dismissive of posters when they won't work on themselves and tend to try spread their non DB ideas to other posters, who really don't need that crap. Can I say crap? Crap crap crap! Heh not censored.
CT
You have taken so much time on my posts and I cannot thank you enough.
No need to thank me. My only ask, is that you pay it forward, find the people that are coming behind you and help them.
There were a few points in there where I felt you were being quite dismissive, but I do believe this was not your intent.
You are correct, that was not my intent at all. Here’s the thing, understanding and answering some of these questions take time. Usually, the LBS does not want that time. They want the MLCer to come back and come back now. I was not being dismissive. I was pushing a little. I want you to think about this quote. I do not need a response just think about it.
“If it stings – look at it”
When someone says or post something that stirs up a feeling. It usually means that we still have work to do.
You ask a creative introverted mind a question like that, the answer you get may be abstract, but that does not make it less true for the respondent.
Okay. I would still like more of an action type answer. Read Mach1 post on your thread. Chances are he is explaining much better than I can.
Also, ADHD and introversion have ruined me, I have gone to great lengths to work beyond them in the past 6 months and am proud of the progress.
Not trying to minimize the impact ADHD has….I will say that often times, people use the issues we have as a crutch to avoid dealing with the bigger issues. For me, I had ton of excuses that I gave myself….”you don’t understand”, “but the kids”, “my sitch is different”, etc. Try to avoid using things as an excuse to avoid digging deep. As for the progress, I am happy for you. Keep it up.
Rest assured though, this not only guides how I loved in the past, but how I am friends, how I am a son, how I am a father, how I am a leader, etc. But I am awake and it will be a challenge, sometimes minute by minute, but I refuse to let it govern my future.
Good – don’t let it govern your future. Now, how have you “loved”?
To meet your example head on, my mother did slap me everyday, she still loved me, her love had nothing to do with the chaos in her mind which ruined her capacity for a healthy handling of her pain.
Good point. I may not agree 100% with this. How do you think your mother relationship impacted YOU?
"I don't, I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No. You... you... complete me."
I love that line!
job, you are all amazing. I am here to do the hard work, here to understand. When I don't seem to understand, appear argumentative, or contrary, I hope you know it is a process I go through to arrive at understanding.
Yes Job is amazing. As for the argumentative, we all get it – It does not mean that we will stop pushing you. The key….is when YOU are start pushing YOURSELF.
I just love to pick on E...
He says I remind him of his mom.
FTR, she ain’t lying. Picks on me all the time. She used to call me bonehead. LOL. And yeah, she does look a little like my mother.
Have a great weekend and do me a favor, read Mach post several times and give your responses to his questions a lot of thought.
Peace,
Eric
CT,
I do not consider myself amazing...I went through Hades and back w/my xh and his MLC. He was a monster from the get go and remained that way for about 6 years and then finally settled down into the next stage of playing at replay and there he is...still stuck. He finally filed for divorce, married the OW, she died 9 year later from ovarian cancer and while she was in Hospice, he was on the search for his next crutch, all the while staying in contact w/me as a "just a friend". Now, I don't hear from him and it's for the best. I moved forward and have been living my life to the fullest.
I didn't discover DB until after I opened the door and basically helped him out the door. By the time he flew the coop, my marriage was completely over and I knew in my heart that he would never return...why? Because he destroyed everything in his path and the damage was too great to repair. However, I will say this, DB was my lifeline for many years. I have met a few of the most wonderful people here and have stayed in touch w/them over the years. I learned that I was stronger than I thought and one thing I did manage to learn...that is patience! Patience was not something I had much of, but I've learned to count to ten before saying something that I may not be able to take back, I've learned to listen, ask questions and then offer up suggestions/opinions.
I remain here to pay it forward. There are so many people who need help in understanding that you can't fix these people, but you can certainly fix yourselves as you travel the Yellow Brick Road.
You'll get there. Have patience and I do have a truckload of shovels to help you along the way.
I choose a digression to begin with. I studied martial arts for a few years in my early 20's, studied with a man from Samurai lineage; he ran a fairly brutal but honest school. I got quite good at it; Aikido, Aiki-jitsu, and Kendo, I took everything the Dojo offered. Thing is, once the higher ranks realized you were getting good, you tended to be challenged frequently.
So, more often than not I began being requested - as in told - to remain after class. Sensai would leave and I would be faced with 2-5 black belts who attack, sometimes one to one, sometimes all at once. There were only about 2-3 students who received the beatings with me, which were referred to as "gentle kindness" from the higher ranks. And by beatings, I mean we were allowed to defend ourselves in full contact martial arts against people who were significantly more trained than us, defense was bit of a misnomer when it all began.
I had my wrist bruised to the bone once by a black belt with a bokto (wooden sword we sparred with) who went to far - he did it on purpose and in my 2nd day of the Kendo courses. I was exceedingly angry and wanted bite his throat out - in those days I could have, but I took it, barely showed it. So I thought. Other black belts saw what he did, at the time and after class when one of them gave me first aid. I found out later (many months later) the black belts self regulated their own, out of site of the lower ranks. He was forced to lay face down on wood and the Sensai beat him with that bokto across dude's back until a point was made.
Not long after that I was sparring with the black belts again. The things they said to me had changed. I was told I held back and was willing to be hit before I did hit. I agreed. On a particular weekend training a higher rank paired me w/ a slightly lower rank black belt and they both told me not to hold back.
At the call of hajime, he threw a right strike at my face and I caught his wrist on the underside in my left hand, used his own momentum to guide it up and lean it back towards his own head while my right hand connected and shoved his elbow in the same direction all as I was stepping forward with full body weight and all in a motion, however long motions take. The result was his right fist behind his right shoulder blade, arm bent at the elbow which was parallel to top of his head and by the time his mouth responded to the pain for him to scream OSS his right should was dislocated and his right tendon in his elbow torn.
Now, neither of us knew that at the time and neither of us were basterds. I helped him and I call for help and I apologized. He was not upset, but hurting, and he took it very well. He told me later I responded with training and did what I was told to do. Later on at the next dojo party whenever that was, he showed up with his arm in a sling and a brace. He actually apologized to me. He knew I did not mean to hurt him, but he did mean to push me. We talked for a while. I quit that dojo not long after. No other reason than I left the state for work. I may have forgotten or neglected all those fancy moves and philosophies, but not how fondly I recall those days and those teachers.
Now the above was true. And if it seemed like crystal clear allegory, than it seems I have finally been successful in my communications. So its important you know: I had not thought about the above tale in such detail in quite some time, so something about my page 8 here stirred a significant memory replay. Next, the above was a learning experience like one I have never had until that time - that physical pain can come in the form of love and education. Also true of it is that I still love all of those people (even the guy I wanted to esophagate with my teeth is off the sht list) even if I no longer know them. Lastly, I did not write that tale from my life with the intent for modern actors to replace past actors.
So, I get it. I know why. I understand. Now...I am ready to reply to the above from all of you. And what choice do I have anyway? You black belts scarred all of the lower belts off my mat, so if pain is the way to understand the conversation... hajime.
and the biggest culprit...we are fixers. We want to fix our spouses. Unfortunately, we can't.
She needs to learn the lessons w/o your help. Hang in there!
I don't want to fix her, I want her to fix herself...and as I accept your words and say mine out loud...there is no difference between the two. Indeed.
I don't need you or Eric getting in trouble with the authorities.
Although I know that Eric doesn't care.
And you just made meeting Eric so much more relatable and interesting...
Hey, don't meh the lesson. Sometimes we don't see this crap in ourselves and we ALL need reminders sometimes. I just love to pick on E...
He says I remind him of his mom.
Cat04 - we do not know each other and learning. I did not "meh' with seriousness, but as a joke. Not sure if you got that or if I did not get your reply? In my next life as a WASP'y me monster princess life, on my 16th b-day I promise to mean meh it when I say it. I hope until then you will love to pick on me, I further hope you never remind me of my mother.
Did I read 5LL? - Pieces of it, in an airport. Please don't ask me about that author again. Dr. Chapman is a pig. Thank you.
CT118,
AND I certainly hope others see this as well;
There were a few points in there where I felt you were being quite dismissive, but I do believe this was not your intent.
We are seldom dismissive of the posters, we can and will be fully dismissive of superficial, "I know...but" justification of bad habits, or glossing over of answers types of posts.
We want you guys to put as much effort in as we are...with the understanding that you guys are also going through hell so there is some lee way.
Eric won't be dismissive of you, but he might be about a portion of your post.
"I wish she would just listen to me"
After awhile, and yes while it is a vent...we tend to swat those down. I wish I had a pony.
We only get dismissive of posters when they won't work on themselves and tend to try spread their non DB ideas to other posters, who really don't need that crap. Can I say crap? Crap crap crap! Heh not censored.
Jack three Beans -
Thank you. I did not find Eric intentionally crass. I think by your response and his his, my position was understood. If any of my answers came across as superficial I promise this was not the intention. For example, what I wrote above to Cat. You all may feel my response to Chapman's text is dismissive and short sighted. I refuse anything where the use of religion is the pretext justification for why I should but into it. So no kidding, I am open to other text recommendations, but not from that author. I do believe that I am trying to work on myself, however the suggestion of Chapman was in fact trying to spread non DB crap into my postings. MWD did not sell me her books by posting on her website that God spoke the language of DB. Chapman is an un-flushed POS who does do that on his website and blatantly seeks to capitalize his systm off the name of God IMO. If we are going to adhere to MWD principles, lets respect that she managed to create a place amorphous to religious belief and not spread that fairy tale BS to those who do not wish to receive it.
Mach1, Eric....tomorrow. You old guards tell me in general that you all are not amazing, that I don't have to thank you - not my place to fix you. Will point out my W does not like compliments either. Does not stop the offer when deserved. You all are amazing.
Sci-fi fans...? Daisy. Daisy. where....is....your lov...e..fooooo..r meeeeeeee..?
Tired.
CT,
I have to at that I am baffled by your tirade against Chapman and the 5LL book. We recommend the book for it works really well in tandem with the DB process. Never mind the religious undertones contained in the book.
I have benefited tremendously from the 5LL book and I tend to lend towards spirituality rather than organized religion. I love the 5LL book and most definitely know what my main LL are in giving/receiving love. Don't be too quick to dismiss the 5LL book. In fact, it aligns pretty well with the DR book in giving you a clear roadmap for a much MORE successful R.
In reading the book, I simply focused on the main points which made total sense in context of my own upbringing and how I expressed myself in romantic relationships. Talk about lightbulb moment!
Ahh moment, if you will.
Peace.
Eric thanks. The quote you gave, I did think about it. Truth hurts because it might be true type of thing. Interesting - you chose a metaphor to explain something? Thanks, again.
job - that last post is what makes you amazing. I understand you may feel otherwise. Perhaps though, we have opposing viewpoints. Like I said, I can only control me and I stick to my guns, you and all who help here = amazing.
Wonka - I will take it about this far only to try and clear up my position: Chapman is a man who, like many men, utilize the name of God to sell their ideas and theories. If Chapman's products are so good he can sell them without using the name of God as rhetoric to do it. Chapman speaks in churches about his ideas which are his products and this sell products, he chooses to very specifically and deliberately utilize God to help him make his money - and to me, people who choose to market their products by capitalizing off God are pigs. I am not judging the man, but his actions I find disappointing. The 5 LL's is not new, I have read a portion of the main book and other things and find it all tarnished. So, if there are other books, where the authors do not prey upon people's dollars by suggesting that "god speaks" the language of their theory, than I am open to it. For example MWD, who only mentions using our faith as a support piece and never suggests that God would use DB'ing - even though I am pretty sure God has used LRT's on me a few times to get my attention.
Mach1 questions later today.
CT,
It is clear that you have very strong personal views on Chapman's approach. Religion notwithstanding, what are your LLs in receiving and expressing love?
Mine are PT and QT when receiving (WOA is very close behind in kissing QT's butt) love and I express my love through PT and AOS.
How about you? Your turn.
You are correct, and once that you see, you can't un-see..
So what is different now ?
How are you different ?
How do you react differently ???
How do you act differently...???
Ask me for specific examples if you want.
What is different now is me. My coping mechanisms, responses to situations, how I challenge myself for improvement, and the understanding of myself have all changed from how I was 8 months ago.
How I am different - well, the biggest one is that I proactively address my own problems as opposed to masking them and ignoring them. I have also accepted that I cannot fix others, nor control them. I am only in control of me. I have remembered myself and the self I wanted to be.
How do I react differently? To my W, I actually listen and prove it back with validating language or response. I do not try to fix nor control. I am willing to provide assistance if requested, but even then the type of assistance does not have me fixing and is on my own timeline. And don't run with this too far please, I am not talking about changing tires. Again, specifics are offered, but your question will need to be less general or you get a general answer.
How do I act differently? I am able to listen to people now. I take proactive steps for managing ADHD, which has helped open a world up to me I never had access to. A world where I can look people in the eye and listen to them without thinking about what I want to say next, how desperately I want them to go away, or what I am going to do or already have done that day. I am also now able to start and finish something in a single movement which I could not do before. Books get read, food does not get burned, laundry gets put away. I simply could not do that stuff before not for lack being able, but because I could not understand why it mattered. This has been important in how I act, not just w/ my W, but in all things and to all people. The few responses since coming to DB community have shown me that the significance of this in my life will not be well understood. So please do not suggest I use it nor tell me not to use it as a crutch. I don't. I state it because it is a significant part of my story.
W/ my W how do I act differently - I listen, I do not offer to fix, I do not try to control, in short I give her space and keep my own.
Yep...except that YOU aren't married to Hesse...
Sounds like an easy question huh ???
Yet it seems to take down the noblest of men when asked...
I said the questions were "simple...,but challenging", so no they did not sound easy to me. I am not convinced that I failed to answer any of those questions nor that I answered them with avoidance behavior. I believe that the few who addressed my responses back to me seemed quite taken in exception by my answers; Hesse response statistically garnished the most replies. I am convinced now that a different type of response was desired from me in the love questions.
So allow me to propose my own question about said responses to my responses:
Was it noticed that my answers to the love questions were consistently answered with conceptual responses, while all other questions were answered specifically or mentioned I did not know and would think on it? If the answer to this question is no, than I hope some confusion has potentially just been been cleaned up across all parties.
If the answer is yes than I believe we truly need to hit the reset button on our communication. Please let it be known that any expression of concern or defense I have shown is based upon the fact that I viewed the love questions in a conceptual context, exemplified by the fact that I consistently answered all of those questions with conceptual answers and am feeling as if I was either misunderstood or deliberately misled. Further, I am not looking for apology or validation on this. My reply is simply and effort to illustrate my perception so that a forward motion might begin again as I am admitting to how greatly this misunderstanding bothers me.
In the interest of not addressing problems without possible solutions, please allow me to offer potential variation(s) to those questions which would have resulted in more exact answers from me:
What does love with your W look like now that you are separated versus the worst point or best point in your M?
What actions do/did you take to show people you are/were giving them love?
When others are/were giving love to you, how are/were you showing them you are/were receiving their actions?
I am not convinced, that you know what any of these mean...
And that is okay for now...
It's also the reason that he asked you the question.
Think I covered above.
Not entirely, some of it. my reply to Wonka later will offer some insight on this.
Feeling loved and giving love, are at your core.
They are based on how you think, act, speak, etc..
Core issues don't typically ebb and flow like feelings do...
Feelings of love are often fleeting at best...true deep love however, differs greatly...
I agree with all of this.
Why did she dump you at 19/20 ?
Cause I am thinking, that the FIRST sign of this being a dysfunctional relationship, which appears to be...
I answered this one, its on my reply to eric's initial reply to me.
So how do you stop that cycle ??
How close are you to accepting 100% of your half in this ?
I also see a LOT of "we" in there...
Sure, you both sukced at this relationship.
However...YOU are the one here now...
I asked you very similar questions the other day on RSG's thread up in Newcomers...
You avoided them then, and I see a lot of avoidance in this response to the freakin Rican....
I can only stop it for me. Have I yet? Not too sure yet, but I am on my way. As stated above, not fixing, giving her space and taking my own, allowing her to be n her own journey, I am on mine. Seems like a start for breaking that cycle to me.
How close am I to 100% in accepting my responsibility? 100% is my answer for what I am aware of is my responsibility. If you had asked in understanding all of the ways I was responsible, I would say 90% with a caveat to adjust that number as required. I acknowledge there may be things which I was responsible for that I remain unaware of or do not know/ see yet. What I understand I was responsible for, for those I have analyzed, accepted, and begun action on, yes I accept and the proof is in the work I am doing. Some things are complete, some never will be due to what they are and for those work happens daily for the rest of life until I die.
Yeah,
the "we's" in the answer were the way I understood the question, but you are fair to point this out. No argument against it. I will say that is not where my mind is at currently; I think of her and I as separate people in my mind.
Wow,
if I overlook something I assure it was not intentional certainly not from avoidance. I will go back and find it. Apologies. I do not know what freakin Rican is or what response I avoided. Someone I replied to might be Puerto Rican?
Listen Mach1, and with all due respect, to you claiming I avoided something twice - since coming to DB community I have openly admitted to my wife actively sleeping with another man, that I am recovering from drug addiction, that I ignored my son, that I was molested, that my mother beat me, that I spied on my wife, that I was a criminal in my teenager years, that I struggle with violence, that I cheated on women, and every other self-deprecating item allowable to my life. Further, I have done my best to be here daily and offer support to others while seeking support on my own, my fight for self thread on newcomers is dominated by posting information dedicated primarily to helping people understand why the hell of infidelity exists. I assure you, I cannot illustrate an honesty any deeper than I have already done and I am not avoiding anything on purpose. Illustrations of action are desired here, I would suggest my actions support my claim.
I want to help you help me, but please be clear and remember sometimes people just don't understand the question or the communication approach. I also want to help those of you who help us. I have been a manager of other people for 12 years. One of the best things I proactively state is that "if you have a problem with understanding me and you do not share that problem with me, what opportunity have you given me to help either of us?" Those of you helping me are not mind readers, and I have now given you an opportunity.
In summary,
I love humor. I love knowledge. I love learning. I love challenges. I love helping people. And I love the DB community. I am here to gain understanding. I am here to be helped. I am here to offer help. I am here for understanding. I am here to become a better self. Perhaps I did not articulate myself well earlier - If you all see me defending myself heavily and/or appearing resistant to a concept you have introduced - please ask me "Hey, CT118 how did you understand that? I understood it as... or I asked you about blank the other day, what is your answer" Chances are simply I missed it or misunderstood.
Wonka,
I am feeling complete solidity towards you Wonka and for how you have achieved this response. The fact that I am answering I hope reveals my respect for you and a tip of my hat to your communication skill set. I don't really know you, but you have gathered training or really paid attention via experience at somepoint in your life. Negotiating in a way which leaves both parties feeling that neither have sacrificed and both have gained...
My LL's are: Primary- PT and secondary- QT, like you, on any given Sunday WOA may have a run for the money vs. Qt. I express my love through WOA, followed by QT. However, not having read the book entire, I do not know the rules on making audibles for expressing LL to those whole feel different. Is that legit?
So I spent some time the past few days reading some back threads (some of these people may still be here and I've not made the connection or missed it somehow). There's a guy MHL who I think was also named Missherlove at some point? Anyway he made some really great reference points in his story to accompany what all of you has said about time and what it does. There was another one (I clicked off it and now trying to find it again)by a guy named Fisherman or Fishing-something? Anyway, his statements about what his W said to him were identical to things mine has said. No close, not kinda, but identical; it was creepy, but writes the 'script' so to speak. Not sure if it's a problem or just the way it is - not all the links on these older threads go anywhere? Server storage?
A couple questions I have from my own sitch i have not found from readings:
- My W seems to be sick constantly, as in having a cold type of sick. She also complains of never getting any sleep. She was never a person to be illness prone before. Guess this sickness is a result of sustained stress? or are these things not even related? I have not come across much about the long term physical health affects of MLC.
- My W has been putting on weight and told me she started drinking a lot which makes her eat poorly. Now as little as a month ago this was a woman dedicated to vitamins, gym, and clean eating, something her and I always connected on. Her OM is a porky dude, not sure if that info matters. This behavior combined with the above, are these usual traits of the MLC depression I have read about?
-The other day we met at s4's new Kindergarten for orientation. For the second time (1st was back in July) she said "why did't you look this good when we were together" I don't know what that statement means and each time I have not been able to reply with words, just staring at her. Think i finally mustered a smile or something. Is that a real question in her head, I mean do they really think that or that just some BS that happens to be in the script?
Thanks
Taking my son to park now, we just finished some carrots together and he is watching cartoons. Carrots do not taste right for breakfast, but I let him pick our breakfast on Sundays.
CT,
We have had a few purges of info and when that happens, older threads or threads that the posters want removed are removed forever. The server can't hold all of them. However, did you attempt the search by going to the left hand bottom of the screen and hitting on display options and changing the Topic from the last three weeks to all? That will take you all the way back to some postings of 2008.
Okay to address your questions.
Your wife is in crisis and depression is the main ingredient. Illnesses are all part of the ride. Depression and stress will create a lot of health issues and yes, they do appear to be sick quite a bit...this is normal. Some people will develop high blood pressure and others may develop heart issues. Some become drug addicts and/or alcoholics along the way...but again, it's how they cope w/their issues. Oh, and yes, they can actually think they are sick and they aren't.
So, she's putting on weight? Drinking, eating and stress will cause this. She's probably eating a lot of junk food or fast food along the way. This is very typical. Some will lose weight as well.
Here's a link that may prove helpful to you:
In Tandem--MLC and Depression As for her comment about you looking this good...she may think that you are working out to get her attention. She may not realize that the way you look is just the book cover and what counts is what is inside. Some of them say stuff like this. Again, typical comments. Yes, they tend to spit stuff out that is floating around in their heads. The next time she says this just say "thanks" and leave it at that.
Enjoy the park. Carrots for breakfast? Yuck! But at least he selected something healthy. They are good for the eyes!
Enjoy the time you spend w/your son.
job, thank you. Yes, carrots are not good for breakfast, but I try to stick with the fun for him by letting him choose on Sunday's, only stop it when he wants us to have ice cream. He's a cool kid, more often than not he does make good food choices. We are in "downtime" right now where we have lunch and then do our own thing for an hour or so to give each other space. I study, he does Lego or one of the YouTube shows he watches. We had fish sticks and some hummus w/ bread, really not working for me....do believe I will be choosing the dinner menu tonight.
So no, I did know about the display options. I am on an iPad right now and do not see it. Will look again when I get to a laptop later tonight.
Thank you for the enlightenment on the questions. That link has some powerful things. The masking depression really hit home, but without surprise many of the items in that link hit the target. I noticed in the list of associated disorders that an attachment disorder was not mentioned. I am guessing the list was not intended to be all encompassing. Anyway, the IC I take my s4 to sniffed out an attachment disorder on him the very first visit.
When W, s4, and I were together the other day at kindergarten orientation I saw how bad it has become - from both of them towards each other. There did not seem to be anything I could do but let it play out, so that's what I did. I'm not sure how I would describe it full, but in short he did not want to leave her and it escalated to him grasping onto her like she was going away forever, screaming, and crying. She began calm, this turned to frustrated anger and next they were both holding each other and crying. I get, she is in a mental crisis, holy s is it something powerful to witness.
Will just take s4 to IC each week, try my best to be a source of stability for him, and keep working on my own self. Alongside coming here for some understanding eyes.
CT,
Some kids act out like this when mommy or daddy drop them off at day care. One of the best ways to escape w/o him getting upset is to take him in and have him focus on something, like a toy, another child, etc. and then slowly slip away and don't announce that you are leaving. In my nephew's case, that is what his parents did. He also had this attachment to a baby blanket for many years. When my nephew started school, he wouldn't take the blanket w/him, but minute he came home, that blanket was "attached" to him. My mother slowly snipped away at the blanket until two threads were left and one day, they disappeared and he never acted out because he couldn't have his blanket. You have to handle this very gently and slowly. It may not because of the crisis, but maybe something was said to him that made him scared to go to daycare. Maybe someone is being a bully or maybe the daycare provider has teased him, but you have to work w/him and keep his focus on something in the room and slowly, slowly back out of the room and go to work. Hopefully, he will outgrow this.
Also, I want to mention that some kids go through a period crying jags. Their feelings get hurt really easily. I can't remember at what age, but I want to say around 6 or 7. It's all part of their growing up.
I do hope that you can figure out how to get to the bottom of this attachment issue, but it is very normal for some to do this.
CT
A few points.
1. Try to stop over thinking your W. It's futile right now. She can not be fathomed
2. You S, is just looking for love, stability, reassurance. Don't worry about this. He will stabilise with your kind loving attention as a great Dad. My kids did the same. Jobs advice is great.
3. Be the rock of stability, as the head of your family.
4. Just be you mate. You are doing great!
All the best.
Surfer.
Oh, forgot a point. Your W's sickness is probably due to a poor immune system due to stress, nothing more, nothing less. I don't know but that is what my WW went through. Does she look exhausted, tired around the eyes and lethargic?
Could be the same. It's her journey. Don't think too much about it, or feel sorry for her, just observe her.
Surfer.
CT,
Reading the 5LL book isn't like reading
War and Peace, I promise.
I think it's only around 70-75 pages long. It will be so worth it for things will start to fall in place after you've read it.
thanks to everyone for the posts today and for the posts this past week, even the hard ones.
job - I was able to find those post buttons on my laptop version of the site. ipad runs most sites in the mobile format, which may explain why I did not see it there.
surfer - on my 6 buddy.
And for you Wonka...I can only smile while SMH. Patience and persistence; I found a free copy on the net. Chapter 1 down, will do the rest in between school work.
eric - I just found the Codependent No More online too - partial though, 1st three chapters. That will get me started, I am going to put a request in to the library tomorrow for whole thing.
Thanks all.
If I were to ask you what it meant to be controlling, what would you say ?
Do you often feel Misunderstood ...?
Would you say that , your reply to me was what a typical discussion with your spouse was ??
Listen Mach1, and with all due respect, to you claiming I avoided something twice - since coming to DB community I have openly admitted to my wife actively sleeping with another man, that I am recovering from drug addiction, that I ignored my son, that I was molested, that my mother beat me, that I spied on my wife, that I was a criminal in my teenager years, that I struggle with violence, that I cheated on women, and every other self-deprecating item allowable to my life. Further, I have done my best to be here daily and offer support to others while seeking support on my own, my fight for self thread on newcomers is dominated by posting information dedicated primarily to helping people understand why the hell of infidelity exists. I assure you, I cannot illustrate an honesty any deeper than I have already done and I am not avoiding anything on purpose. Illustrations of action are desired here, I would suggest my actions support my claim.
I want to help you help me, but please be clear and remember sometimes people just don't understand the question or the communication approach. I also want to help those of you who help us. I have been a manager of other people for 12 years. One of the best things I proactively state is that "if you have a problem with understanding me and you do not share that problem with me, what opportunity have you given me to help either of us?" Those of you helping me are not mind readers, and I have now given you an opportunity.
It wasn't suggested, it happened.
First by Sandi in your third thread ???
The second one was on RSG's thread. I can get that one if you want it too...
And my point here isn't to bash you about it either.
My point is, that you appear to gloss over a lot of stuff quickly, just so you can get to the point where you are "right"...
The interpretation is the responsibility of the reader, not the writer....
There's a guy MHL who I think was also named Missherlove at some point? Anyway he made some really great reference points in his story to accompany what all of you has said about time and what it does. There was another one (I clicked off it and now trying to find it again)by a guy named Fisherman or Fishing-something?
What do you want to know ???
eric - I just found the Codependent No More online too - partial though, 1st three chapters. That will get me started, I am going to put a request in to the library tomorrow for whole thing.
Perfect.
One quick question if I may….what nationality are you? Just wondering. I am Puerto Rican myself.
As for MHL, he is an amazing dude….now answer Mach’s questions.
If I were to ask you what it meant to be controlling, what would you say ?
Dominance of one over another. Not necessarily using the physical; could be opinions, power, money, belittling comments, criticism, guilt. To be controlling means to assert the needs of one party before the needs of another in a way which is not mutually beneficial or seeking input.
So if you were to ask me the above question, that is how I would answer. If you were to ask was I controlling in my M?, I would answer yes. I would tell you that I did not realize it at the time. I would tell you that it was never aggressive in a yelling or physical sense. I would tell you that it was almost exclusively over money, and I would tell you that I would try to get her to look at the budget with me to understand how little we had. Then I would tell that I was wrong, not particularly in my belief for why I felt the way I felt, but for my approach to the problem and my disregard for trying to find a different approach for communicating my feelings. I would tell you that there may have been other areas I am unaware of or have yet to ascertain where/when I was controlling. I would tell you this is a topic I routinely explore with my IC, not control, but where it comes from in my character and training. But I would only tell you this were you to ask.
Do you often feel Misunderstood ...?
No, I do not. However, if I had to guess, you deduced rather quickly that when I do feel misunderstood it frustrates me. My "go to" is to get tough on others because I am tough on myself. I am aware of this and working on it. Have not stopped it every time, but improving.
Would you say that , your reply to me was what a typical discussion with your spouse was ??
No, not at all. Not only not typical, but not common or even frequent. If you were to ask if my reply to you was what a typical argument situation looked like between my spouse and I I would have answered "yes, without question". Then I might add that again, after 6 months of IC with this trait self-identified on the first day, I am working on tools to combat and change this response from within. I actually spoke with my IC on Monday (yes, she works on Labor Day apparently) about our exchange Mach1. Did not get into detail, but generalized. Told her I had let myself down, not that my feelings were invalid, but in the way I chose to express them. Figured the opportunity to tell you that would create itself at some point, and thus...so it has.
It wasn't suggested, it happened.
First by Sandi in your third thread ???
The second one was on RSG's thread. I can get that one if you want it too...
And my point here isn't to bash you about it either.
My point is, that you appear to gloss over a lot of stuff quickly, just so you can get to the point where you are "right"...
I am sorry you have that take on me, I wish our relationship would have begun differently. I have no misunderstandings about why you would think that way. I do stand by what I told you, that I simply overlooked the questions. Sandi's questions to me were on my first day here on the board and were perhaps my 3rd or 4th reply from someone as I recall. I remember not even realizing what she was referring to at the time she called me out. Like so many others, not knowing the rules, I beat into new threads ignorantly and lost track of the left behind. Do my best to tell other newbies when they first arrive, if I catch them in time, proof of this is out there. As for the RSG post, I did go back and answer your questions over the long weekend as I promised. It was simply an oversight. Thank you though, I do believe you when you say it was not intended as a slight.
The interpretation is the responsibility of the reader, not the writer....
Personal opinion, its on both.
There's a guy MHL who I think was also named Missherlove at some point? Anyway he made some really great reference points in his story to accompany what all of you has said about time and what it does. There was another one (I clicked off it and now trying to find it again)by a guy named Fisherman or Fishing-something?
What do you want to know ???
The question marks were rhetorical in the statement, so there was no true question. Just to shorten "I just read these really honest stories and hope I am not insulting as I am not remembering their names right". And I am learning from those old threads, but the ones before the 100 comment cap are very challenging to navigate in chronological order.
[/quote]
Fresh start [hand extended].
CT118
Mach just wants you to reach deep for your answers making sure they are genuine.
We tend to be pretty perceptive about weak points in others around here.
He honestly ins't trying to goad you or pee on you...seriously I'm going to use the g-rated words and it looks STUPID!
I trust Mach enough to sort of think he might be onto something , just not sure what yet.
Give him a chance.
Hoping you have a great rest of the day.
One quick question if I may….what nationality are you? Just wondering. I am Puerto Rican myself.
Ericmsant2 - you may. United States. I am first gen American on my mother's side, she is from Germany. My father is a bit of a mutt blood from the southern US.
Mi espousa es medio Cubana, asi yo comprendo un poco Espaniol mi amigo. That's is most likely not correct, but I never got faulted for trying. My German is better than my Spanish.
Please start a new thread.
Fresh start ?
I wasn't aware that we needed one yet....
I'm not against you in any way. If I were against you, you wouldn't see any of my posts at all on your thread.
I ask about control, because I see it...
I ask about being misunderstood, because I see your defensiveness...
I ask about these things because they typically generate an emotional response if you feel like you are being attacked...
Your relationship with your spouse, is primarily emotional, or at least it should be...
Emotional responses tend to be more of a reaction, rather than a deliberate action.
And that is what most people tend to give to their spouse during the heat of battle....
Control ?
What I see, is that you very much have to feel in control of most things.
In my posts to you, not only did you try to answer my questions, you also told me in what context I was asking, and what the answer would be in each of those. To the extent that you were also telling me how to ask the question. So essentially, you were taking control of the question AND the response...and eventually, the outcome..
By your above definition...that is control..
In your response to Wonka about the 5LL book, you did a very similar task, in which you broke down the author, explained how you felt, came back again, and in my opinion, told her how she should feel about the author, before you closed by minimizing the impact that the book has on this community.
As far as the book ?
Don't stand on that hill too long. It is the context of the book, not the entire content to which we speak.
Knowing your love languages, how you give, how you receive, simply allows YOU to grow...
You admit to being controlling, and you admit to not always recognizing it when it happens...
For now though ? Its a moot point....
What sends the red flags to me, is the defensiveness in which much of that ^^^ occurs....
You seem to think that I am lashing out and attacking you, hence the fresh start offer.
Believe it or not, I am not really here to be a friend. Maybe that will, or maybe it will not happen down the road. I am here to help you see yourself more clearly than you have in the past. YOU asked for help, and I am only giving you feedback according to the information that you have given.
I'm in your corner...
So your choice, we can go further with this...or we agree to disagree about it...
Personally ? I would love to see you walk through this without the pretense of you feeling attacked...
So if you choose....
Maybe think about this for a while....
And then go back and read your responses to me.....see if maybe you see something different this time ....
So, maybe if we are starting fresh...
Why do you feel the need to be in control ???
How important is it to you, to be right ?
Is your opinion more important to you, than opening up and accepting that others have opinions too ?
I remember a tagline that poster had here a while ago, and I am certain that I will misquote it....
A beginner scorns..
A Novice will accept...
The Master says, but of course....Something else that I see a bit of..
I see you trying to give the perfect answer to each question. I am not looking for that at all. The perfect answer doesn't let me see who you are at all....
And maybe that is a small part that comes across to me as control. And while you may not be trying to control the question, or answer, or direction the thread is taking....
It is the outcome that you seem to be trying to control...
The interpretation is the responsibility of the reader, not the writer....
Personal opinion, its on both.
Maybe it is both....
Maybe I can ask Mr Twain to come back and rewrite
Huck Finn, so that it's true meaning can be digested by all, instead of the minority that seem to "get" his sarcasm....????
There's a guy MHL who I think was also named Missherlove at some point? Anyway he made some really great reference points in his story to accompany what all of you has said about time and what it does. There was another one (I clicked off it and now trying to find it again)by a guy named Fisherman or Fishing-something?
What do you want to know ???
The question marks were rhetorical in the statement, so there was no true question. Just to shorten "I just read these really honest stories and hope I am not insulting as I am not remembering their names right". And I am learning from those old threads, but the ones before the 100 comment cap are very challenging to navigate in chronological order.
Fresh start [hand extended].
I asked because I am friends with both outside of here. I talk to Fish once a week or so...
Eric ( the freakin Rican BTW) may be in more contact with MHL than I...
However I could find out any questions you may have for him...