I haven't posted in many years so I haven't read anybody's posts in a long time. However, I have no doubt that the posts are very similar to those that I made and that I read when I frequented this site many years ago. I first found this site in 2010 when my H was going through his MLC. He had an OW and we separated. You can probably find my posts if you look. I learned so much from this site and made some great friends that I still have today.
The biggest word of advice I can make to any of you going through the pain of MLC is that you WILL survive this. I know it may feel like the worst type of pain and seem insurmountable. But you will survive. And if you follow the advice given on this site, you will thrive. I met three people in particular from this site that were going through similar issues. We supported each other through our trials and tribulations. Some still had hope for their marriages and some knew their marriage was over but still had problems. Over the years, I have watched these folks move on from the pain that MLC caused. Over the years, all of their marriages ended. Despite the odds stacked against me, my marriage survived. My H slowly woke up from the MLC fog and we had many years of reparations and renewals. Over the years, my three friends found new loves and I see them regularly post about how well they are all doing with their new found loves. Their relationships are much healthier and the people are all much happier as a result. This doesn't mean they didn't feel the pain of the divorce any less. It's just that moving on was still the right thing to do.
Many on this site would look at me as the rare "success" and the other people as examples of good "failures". But we are all successes because we took what we learned from this site and used it to make our future relationships more healthy. My friends happiness is evident. I'd be lying if I didn't question whether my own marriage was WORTH saving sometimes. Seeing them be able to start fresh has a lot of benefits. Dealing with a recovering MLCer for years was not easy and took an enormous amount of patience. But here we are, nearly 6 years later. I am so happy to see their healthy relationships and hope that anyone reading will realize that saving a marriage can NOT be your goal. Saving yourself is the goal. Be better. Learn more. Be true to you. And you WILL survive this. You in 5 years may not be the picture that you hope for now. But if you follow the advice, that picture will be great.
What she said ^^^^^^....
"Saving yourself is the goal"
I only have one thing to add....
Believe it or not....
You and you alone decide when it is over. As much as some of you may not realize this now.....you are really in control.
Peace Alb!
I am very happy that you returned and provided an update. It's been a long time since you last posted, but I'm very happy that you and your h survived his MLC and your "new and improved" marriage is going strong.
I couldn't agree more w/the tidbits that Eric pulled from your posting.
Saving yourself is the goal
Amen to that
Thanks so much for sharing this Albuquerque! I'm only 5 months in, and have just started thinking rationally again. I've realized H's MLC could go on for years. I'm not making any decisions about the future now, other than one.
I am going to take this time and selfishly devote it to me. I've got so many hurts from life built up inside me, that I've got plenty to focus on. I figure this will keep me busy for the next couple of years, and then I'll see where I am.
Cadet, thanks for posting the links! You've gotta know that's the first thing I wanted to do...a success story? Did it start like mine? LOL
Thanks again. I needed the positive reinforcement today.
Ancaire,
It sounds like you are on the right track. One of the things I didn't mention, but seems worth mentioning, is that the lessons you learn through dealing with this can often result in being able to deal with things in the future. As an example, my D is now 19 and suffering pretty badly with depression/anxiety issues. This is not an easy thing to see your child go through and can be immensely frustrating when it seems as though they are "lazy" and want to do nothing (but in fact its the depression). My H has realized the type of patience it takes to deal with her and he has remarked several times that he doesn't know how I managed to be so patient with him, but that it meant so much to him and he's trying to do the same for her. And in a strange way, knowing that he went through dark times and came out the other end gives me hope for my D. It's not been easy for her but I have more hope than I might otherwise have without this unfortunate, but ultimately immensely educational experience.
Dealing with a recovering MLCer for years was not easy and took an enormous amount of patience.
I've been reading a lot of posts and threads here and while I am relatively early on in the whole process I have some observations of others' experiences. The conventional wisdom is there is nothing you can do. Your MLC spouse will do what they need to do and will go through it at their own pace. But after spending a lot of time reading here, my feeling is that is not entirely true. Sure you can't control what they feel and do, but the reaction of the LBS seems to me to be really important to the outcome. When I look at the tone people adopt in their posts from years back when talking about their spouses and then look down in the footer to see where they stand now, if I had two words to describe those that reconciled with their spouses, I would say that they were "patient" and "compassionate" and those who were divorced had been "resentful" and "angry."
Now, it may be that everyone wants to spin those that moved on and divorced and started new lives on their own as success stories but considering the divorce rate for those who engage in second marriages is higher than the first I do think there is some sort of personality traits in the LBS that do shape the outcome. I don't buy that we are helpless in all this. Sure the MLCer may actually himself/herself be resentful and angry but if you both are, what chance do you have? None, because there is nothing to attract either one of you. But at least if you are patient and compassionate, you are giving the other person a potential reason to stay.
So no, I don't buy that this is something that the MLCer has to get through on his/her own. That may be true, but you CAN influence where he or she winds up, that is so clear from these boards. It might feel better to be absolved of any blame in all of this but frankly I think a lot of LBS do play a role in increasing or decreasing the odds of the marriage surviving.
That's just my observation, but I am just keeping in mind that most people come here just to talk about themselves. Some may be doing the right thing, but some may be doing absolutely the wrong thing. If we want to learn anything from reading this board, I think we do need to pay attention to the outcome we want and look at whether the people we read have achieved that outcome, or else we could be influenced in a bad way.
Oops, sent that before I could make an edit I wanted to make. I wanted to say:
That's just my observation, but I am just keeping in mind that most people come here just to talk about themselves for their own benefit, not to necessarily because they are role models we should emulate.
2Lady,
You raise some valid points, but please don't take offense at what I'm about to say. I feel that NO ONE here comes to the boards to be a role model. I believe that EVERY poster originally comes to the boards seeking help, advice, guidance and support during a sad and often desperate time in their relationship.
Yes, they do come here to talk about themselves while seeking help and laying out the details of their situation as it unfolds; but also as a way of organizing the chaotic tangle of thoughts and feelings that fill their heads. What each person's story and ensuing support or advice from other posters brings to the table is invaluable...each person is able to find a connection, a gem of advice, a spark or epiphany that might help them to learn or grow or heal on their own journey. Role models arise through wisdom gained in relating their own situations or through connections made with other posters...they can make mistakes or offer advice that doesn't necessarily "work". They are learning and growing, too. They are often "vets"; not experts.
With that said, I believe most people come to these boards to try to save their M. D is not what we want. Yet there is a reason that it has been said that it is not over until we say it is as well as we can't control our MLCer...two things that seem to be at odds. In my case, as in many others, the time between BD, H moving out, and D filed by H was so quick I hardly had found DB and started that process much less taken a breath. It takes time to learn to 180 and get control over your emotional state when dealing with rejection from someone who you thought was in love with you as much as you were in love with them. In some cases, D is inevitable as the MLCer may have decided that D is the only chance to be happy, even though (in my H's case) he keeps saying he's not. They HAVE to find out on their own as they make their way through this journey. By being patient, kind, and loving toward them (as you mentioned) when interacting or speaking of them to others in real life, we are still showing them our love while allowing them to not feel pressured or controlled as they make their way on their own. And many of the LBS are going to vent on these boards so it (hopefully) doesn't come out to our MLCer; they (we) are going to sometimes make mistakes though as we are trying to gain control over the only thing we can...ourselves. I don't think most people on here believe you can't INFLUENCE your MLCer; the idea is to realize you can't CONTROL them. So we GAL to try to learn how to love and gain control of ourselves, and let them be in control of themselves.
So, do we discount the advice or stories brought to these forums by those who are D but have not given up on DBing as "failures"? I believe in some cases dropping the rope and moving forward is not actually giving up on your relationship, but seeing that the MLCer feels that he needs to see an end to the M as an end to his pain and that if his pain continues, it might cause him to look deeper into himself and do the hard work of finding out the true cause of his pain. If we can work on ourselves while the MLCer is working on themselves, maybe there is a chance of R. So, for many of those who D and move on to be happy with themselves, but do not remarry...DBing is still ongoing. We have a lot to learn from them. "Success" by your definition of saving the marriage has may not have happened, but saving the relationship may still be possible.
For those who have moved forward and have DECIDED that it was over, remarried or not, they may have failed to save the marriage, but call their ability to find happiness a success. I don't believe we can discount their advice or lessons learned, either. Their ability to find happiness after the low times and their techniques and resources can benefit those who are still struggling to DB their relationships, no matter what phase they are in.
I think as long as you follow the guidelines of being patient, loving and respectful to your MLC spouse, while using this safe place to vent or share frustration, anger, sadness and any other emotions you have, you will not be influencing others in a bad way. You will be simply sharing the story of your own journey with an unknowable outcome and a lot of amazing insights along the way. There is no situation that can lead to success or failure by following it...we are all too complex and different. All you can do is try to let your MLCer do their thing, while treating them with love and respect from a pressure free distance until they chose to turn to you.
I just am a believer in how we talk about our spouses to other shapes how we FEEL and THINK about them. If we tell others they are a louse, then they BECOME a louse. Once you tell someone else something or put it in writing publicly, it becomes more fixed in your own mind. Of course we all have negative feelings from time to time, but they can pass if we don't make them a permanent part of our story or allow others to start to believe them too.
My point was also that we should be careful about reading too much negativity, because we are influenced by others and if everyone around us is b@tching then we may unconsciously start to believe b@tching is the right way to go.
One can describe what their spouse is doing and then spin it two ways. Both may be venting, but one may be saying I am frustrated but I will be patient because it is a symptom of his suffering. and the other say he's an SOB for what he is doing.
It's all about our attitude.
Hmm. I find most people here are not easily influenced by others. In fact, I see the opposite sort of people. I see people who knew something was off with their spouses and were looking for the ways to help. When we have told any "real" person what our spouses are doing and said we are standing, most of us have been scoffed at and told to "move on" and yet we did not. I describe us as the "loyal to the finish" and "against all odds" variety.
When I see downtrodden posts, I find myself empathizing. And then, the way it influences me is to reassure the person for standing under such trying conditions. I don't see it as influencing me to be negative. I see this as a safe, non judgmental place to voice very deep, dark concerns that no one in the real world understands. So I read it and say: oh, I can validate that feeling and post something to lift this person up as I see he/she is going through something very difficult.
As for speaking negatively about our spouses, I think in this instance people are discussing hating the behavior but loving the person. There are many people here who have faced incredible circumstances. Some spouses have done some, or even all, of the following: maxed out credit cards, spent inheritances/savings, turned to outside men/women for validation of their feelings, sought relief through drugs and/or abandoned their families entirely.
I don't think any of us here condone the behaviors. We are trying to cope with the behaviors to which our spouses turn. And yet we are here working through all the emotions we have (which are real and valid) and yet we still hold on to love, hope, faith and sympathy.
And yes, attitude is important. However, I am sorry to say this view can also be very simplistic and border on blaming the victim (the LBS). There are many, many people here who have shown tremendous compassion and kindness throughout and yet their spouses remained lost. Reading someone's signature is not going to tell you who is successful and who is not. You have to know the whole story and watch the whole journey.
Many MLCers choose not to return because THEY cannot face what they have done. The LBS can forgive it, the MLCer cannot. The signature cannot reflect the complexity inherent in true MLC.
The original intention of this thread may have been hijacked but it is an interesting conversation. I had some thoughts when reading through this and hereare some points I would like to add, in no particular order:
# someone who stood for their M but failed to save it have not necessarily failed. They could have been textbook dbers and not achieved this objective. There are many aspects beyond our control that influence the outcome. This is not making excuses for the lbs, but I wanted to say was that someone here who has stood but still divorced can have a wealth of knowledge and insight to share with others on how to save their M. Most vets here who didn't save their M give very pro saving M advice.
# someone who has stood and endured the immense mental turmoil that can inflict and eventually call it a day should not be judged. If we accept any kind of behavior yes maybe more would stay" married" but never be happy.That is giving up on life, which is worse IMO.
# of course the lbs can greatly influence the direction and possibly the outcome of these crisis. Many sabotage their own efforts by their actions and/or behavior. Sometime the lbs can only manage to put one foot in front of the other and cannot control the manner of doing so. Basically there are times where all we do us get through it the best we can.
# IMO reading all the stories here and how the lbs suffers does affect us. Yes we feel empathy and compassion. Yes it makes us feel good to know weare understood and not alone. BUT there is an undeniable negative influence too. We lose hope when day after day we read the struggles of others, and their despair. It does affect our outlook and optimism at times.
# many of those who have saved their M have expressed being lucky because X, Y or Z occurred in their spouse that influenced their return. The Open being a scumbag for example. Sometimes it is a circumstance that helped achieve the reconciliation.
# the lbs is not powerless and should not think so. Neither are we super heros that can do anything we need a non defeatist attitude but within realistic limits.
# it is hard to get past the resentment and hurt, but it is the best way to give us the best chance to save our M. No one wants to be with as resentful angry person. Respect, compassion, empathy and gratitude are much better allies in this battle and inlife.
Best wishes
Hmm. I find most people here are not easily influenced by others. In fact, I see the opposite sort of people. I see people who knew something was off with their spouses and were looking for the ways to help. When we have told any "real" person what our spouses are doing and said we are standing, most of us have been scoffed at and told to "move on" and yet we did not. I describe us as the "loyal to the finish" and "against all odds" variety.
When I see downtrodden posts, I find myself empathizing. And then, the way it influences me is to reassure the person for standing under such trying conditions. I don't see it as influencing me to be negative. I see this as a safe, non judgmental place to voice very deep, dark concerns that no one in the real world understands. So I read it and say: oh, I can validate that feeling and post something to lift this person up as I see he/she is going through something very difficult.
As for speaking negatively about our spouses, I think in this instance people are discussing hating the behavior but loving the person. There are many people here who have faced incredible circumstances. Some spouses have done some, or even all, of the following: maxed out credit cards, spent inheritances/savings, turned to outside men/women for validation of their feelings, sought relief through drugs and/or abandoned their families entirely.
I don't think any of us here condone the behaviors. We are trying to cope with the behaviors to which our spouses turn. And yet we are here working through all the emotions we have (which are real and valid) and yet we still hold on to love, hope, faith and sympathy.
And yes, attitude is important. However, I am sorry to say this view can also be very simplistic and border on blaming the victim (the LBS). There are many, many people here who have shown tremendous compassion and kindness throughout and yet their spouses remained lost. Reading someone's signature is not going to tell you who is successful and who is not. You have to know the whole story and watch the whole journey.
Many MLCers choose not to return because THEY cannot face what they have done. The LBS can forgive it, the MLCer cannot. The signature cannot reflect the complexity inherent in true MLC.
Beautifully said WaHoo! I agree with every word.
I think if you believe that you will do everything right and it will work you are oversimplifying things. Also I feel it is unfair to claim that some marriages fail as a result of the behaviour of the LBS (post BD I mean). I think relationships are 50:50 the responsibility of both parties, but when we face a MLC maybe you will do everything right and it will not work, because your spouse is "done with the marriage". Maybe you will do nothing right, but they will come out of the fog and it will work. I don't think anyone here has a crystal ball to predict how things will turn out. I offered my H EVERYTHING to make him reconsider, from a "break" so that he can sleep around, to an open marriage. Even a part-time arrangement, him keeping his bachelor pad and visiting us in the weekend. And space, and time and ANYTHING he wanted as long as he didn't disrupt my children's life. Did any of it get through? No. All I managed to get is some time that the law allows me before he can file. I might even stretch that to the maximum and hope that he will be through his MLC by then. And I look better than I did in the last five years. And I work on myself, the house, my career. And his family adore me, and I am a good mother to our kids. And I've been very kind to him for the last 7 months, with only a few angry days lately. And he is still not interested. So even though I agree that some actions make things easier or worse, I think accusing the LBS for the MLCer not coming out of his crisis sooner is like accusing the wife of a man with a broken leg for her husband spending longer in physio than they should. Yes we can have a positive impact, but somethings things will happen regardless of how well we DBed..