http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2572748&page=1Previous thread above. It's been a long time...
So I continue to see NG. He's actually not new anymore, so I will now call him BF. We have moved in together and things are going well. Our relationship is real. We get along well, kids are like long-lost brothers and sisters. What I love about my life now is that everything is real. Nothing is pretend. Nothing is "for appearances only". I can be me, he can be himself and the kids can argue and it's okay. It's great as a matter of fact. My kids are over the moon about BF. He actually does things with S that his dad has never done. Ice Fishing, snowmobiling, boating, etc. And D already calls BF her stepdad. She adores him. Sometimes I think she is closer to BF than she is to her own father.
And no one really cares, but X continues to become more and more off the rails. I didn't think it was possible, but it is. His behavior is more and more bizarre. But his antics don't really get to me anymore. I start to react at first, then back off and just try to let things roll off my back. And it works. And it drives him even crazier now because he can't get that reaction from me any longer. The sad thing is that now, even D is starting to realize her dad doesn't measure up. Oh, she still loves him, but she is starting to tell me she doesn't like going to dad's house and she doesn't like OW and wants to stay with me and BF. Of course I have to tell her she will have lots of fun with daddy and I will see her soon and she needs to spend time with daddy. All the while knowing her daddy won't be around much. It breaks my heart, but there is nothing I can do.
So I guess my advice to newbies is listen to the vets on this board. They know what they are talking about. It takes time, but you eventually get there. But you have to MAKE yourself get there. And it ain't easy, that's for sure.
Peace out,
WH
wishing,
I'm so glad you returned today to post. Time flies by so quickly and when we are enjoying life, it flies by even faster. I'm happy to read that things are going well w/you and your BF. You are seeing what a real relationship entails. I guess the children are getting ready to return to school soon. How is your son doing? Are things any between him and his father?
I'm sorry that your xh is going off the rails even more so than before. Step way back and allow him to splash around in the barrel. Hopefully, one day, he'll hit bottom and come to realize what he had and lost.
Take care of yourself and I'm very happy that life is so much better for you now.
Yay! It's really a great thing when your BF is good to your kids, isn't it?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2572748&page=1Previous thread above. It's been a long time...
So I continue to see NG. .... Our
relationship is real. We get along well, kids are
like long-lost brothers and sisters. What I love about my life now is that everything is real.
Nothing is pretend. Nothing is "for appearances only". I can be me, he can be himself .... I will see her soon and she needs to spend time with daddy. All the while knowing her daddy won't be around much. It breaks my heart, but there is nothing I can do.
So I guess my advice to newbies is listen to the vets on this board. They know what they are talking about. It takes time, but you eventually get there. But you have to MAKE yourself get there. And it ain't easy, that's for sure.
Peace out,
WH
I think that when we can be
'real' with someone else that we are really very lucky. We are all not the same people to begin with so compatibility often plays a role of course. Values may conflict, judgements can be made, lack of understanding simply b/c upbringing is so different sometimes. Being with someone else takes work. Feeling that you can be yourself is 'not to be taken for granted.
I was very happy to read of your update!! Thanks for sharing with us, everyone loves a happy ending.
Good to hear from someone who worked through all of this. Thank you for taking the time to post an update.
Hello strangers
It's odd to long in after all this time and really see no familiar names on the postings. People come and go. And I hope the posters on this thread find peace. It's hard to find that peace but the secret is it comes from within and most of us are so busy fighting and scrambling to find peace they don't see it when it comes. It takes a while but once it's there it makes a world of difference.
Months have passed. In fact it's upon the two year anniversary of when I moved out of the marital home. So much has changed for me, but yet I am the same person I always have been. I look at that house now sometimes when I pick up the kids and marvel at how cold the house is. No warmth...no love. It seems haunted. My son told me the other day that part of me still lives in that house and will never leave and as long as he and D are living there I will always be there. Such a wise boy. And I realized he was correct. For a moment it made me pity OW. But only for a moment.
I can only see things from my point of view, but everything the veterans say on this forum is true. It takes time to see it. Lots of time. And you wont believe it when you do see it. It comes when you aren't looking for it.
I am doing well. Things are shaky at my place of employment. Lots of layoffs but I have survived so far, but I know that no one is irreplaceable so I have started looking and brushed up my resume just in case. Things are really really good with NG and very very serious. My kids just love him and D calls him dad (or stepdaddy). He treats them just like they are his own and loves them dearly. He is teaching S and his own son how to rebuild a motor in a snowmobile since he bought two sleds for the boys so they can work on them. S's own father would never ever do anything like that.
S is a remarkable young man. He is on the honor roll, plays HS and Club soccer, is involved in Band and Choir, is trying out for Honor Choir and is very active in the HS theatre. He has so much going on and he loves it. I am beyond proud of him. D is a little character who has recently discovered a love of reading and Pokemon. LOL. She loves to sing and is now an acolyte in the church we attend. She tends to have a low self-confidence, but I'm working on that. Her stepmother is not helping.
As far as X, I am not sure what to say. He still tries to get me mixed in with his daily life with and without the kids. For example, he is still having issues with the dog having accidents in the house and of course it is my fault. He claims I don't let the dog go to the bathroom before I drop it off on the days he has the kids. I assured him that wasn't the case. He texted me and told me he couldn't have the dog in his house unsupervised if the dog kept having accidents. I told him he needed to lock up the dog then or find doggie daycare. He said or else I could just not drop him off on Wednesday mornings. I told him if that was the case, he would need to come to my place on Wednesday afternoons and pick up the dog as I was not accepting full responsibility for the dog. I have heard nothing about it since.
X is withered and tired. He still puts on the act. But he looks nothing like the man I met and married. He is a mere shadow of that person. And OW, the perfect woman whom the kids love as much as a mother, has become someone who has no motherly instincts whatsoever, even to her own children. S and D don't care to be around her. They tell me she is mean, snippy and rude and the kids are too be quiet as mice when she is sleeping. D tells me she makes her cry a lot while S just stays away from her. The latest is that X has started taking S back to counseling sessions to discuss "family communications" and of course he sent me an email stating it was my fault. How is having family discussions with a counselor on communications WITHOUT my presence supposed to improve things if I am not present? Interesting.
Long story short, X is stuck and is going nowhere. I am moving forward and I don't think he likes it and therefore is trying to keep me involved so I can stay stuck. NG was worried for a long time that X was gonna wake up one day and want me back and I told him even if that did happen, it's too little, too late and I can't go back to living like that.
I still hate only having the kids part-time. That's the only thing I can't get used to. But X owes it to them and to me to be responsible for them. And I can't be the one to keep them from their father. Then that would turn around and affect me.
WH
wishing,
I'm glad you returned to post an update. Now that you are away from the drama, you can see more clearly that your xh is a very broken man and until he hits bottom, he'll continue on as he is right now.
As for the dog, no one has control over when the poor dog needs to potty. Even if you took him out before he arrives at your xh's, he would still need to go again. He either needs to crate him or put him in a room w/potty pads on the floor. I wouldn't accept total responsibility for him either. I do think your xh uses the dog as an excuse to stay in touch w/you.
I'm happy to read that your children are thriving and are getting along w/the NG. That's very important to all of you. Your children are well adjusted and it appears that they are doing well in school and in the other activities. It's a shame that their father doesn't take more of an interest in what they are doing. I think he would find that they are wonderful children and he would/should be proud of them.
I'm not surprised to read how your xh looks physically. They all get that way after a while. Can't burn the candle at both ends and expect to look like Suzy Sunshine, i.e., especially trying to out run old age. Maybe Santa will bring him a new beret that will suit his new look of being withered and tired.
You have so much to be proud of. You've come a long way from living in the house of horrors to now living in a calmer, more peaceful setting not only for you, but for your children as well.
I wish you and your family a very happy holiday season. May the new year bring you some added peace into your life.
Thank You for the update
It been a while for me and never surprises me to read the the MLCer never seems to find that utopia that they left for
It validates what think must of us already know
its all inside and no Relationship or planned escape can create doing the inside work
Hey girl!!
Glad things are going so well with NG! And sorry that no one has thrown a bucket of water on OW yet and melted her.
Ellie
Another update:
Hey folks. Just letting you know that NG and I are now engaged. I couldn't be happier. Of course, once in a while I worry and I think about things that happened in my previous marriage, but NG is completely different from X. NG thinks X and OW are crazy, insane narcissists and of course he is correct.
Since my engagement, X is different. I don't know if it's relief on his part, or what, but at times he is civil, sometimes downright pleasant. Don't worry...I never let down my guard. Not even for a second. He just had shoulder surgery (something he let go for many years that he finally couldn't ignore) and he was trying to get my sympathy. I told S that I had no sympathy for his father because if X had looked into the problem several years ago like I suggested he wouldn't be where he is now.
A few weeks ago, S had a soccer tournament on X's weekend. X asked me to take D to her game because apparently OW had a previous commitment (or is too feeble to drive that far) and meet him at S's tournament. Afterward he wanted to get the kids something to eat and asked me to join them. Normally I wouldn't but D was riding with me and it was transition time (from him to me) and we had an hour drive back to our town and the kids were starving. Rather than say no, I agreed to stop so D could eat. He asked me to sit with him and the kids and I did. It was beyond awkward since it was the first time we had ever really sat together as a "family" since BD. The kids were fine, but I couldn't wait to leave. I told S later it was very awkward for me. But then again it was a great reminder that I have left that life far, far behind me and I never ever want to go back to it. I have come too far.
Since then, S told me this summer his dad intends to try and change placement to where he will get the kids on Sunday nights instead of them coming back to me. It has been almost two years since the D was final, so it is to be expected. S and D don't want things to change, and neither do I. I know from going through courts before they won't change anything unless change is beneficial for the kids. I dread going through something like that again. I can just imagine the courts will dread seeing our names come through on the dockets. X will have to bear the burden of proving the switch back to me is not good for the kids. I don't think he can prove it enough for the courts to rule on it. They would most likely send us to mediation and the evil circle can start over again. But then again, maybe X said that to S to shake me up. Either option is a definite possibility.
I wish I didn't have to deal with this guy but lately he has just been really trying to prove himself as a great guy and doting father. But it may look that way on the surface, but down deep we all know the real story. So basically a lot has changed, but yet nothing has really changed.
WH
Congratulations!!!!!
And sorry that ex is trying to drag you into conflict again, I wouldn't be surprised if news of your engagement stirred him into this. Funny how they don't want us but they don't want anyone else top have us either?
(Funny story - last year my boyfriend met ex while we were all helping one of my kids move into a new apartment. Ex is 56, fit, 5'10", balding, graying white guy. BF is 6'3", built like a pro athlete, African-American, looks like Seal without the lupus. While they were temporarily alone together, BF thanked ex for divorcing me and freeing me up so BF could have me! Would have loved to have been a fly on that wall.)
wishing,
It's so nice to come here and see that you've posted an update. Congratulations on your engagement! I'm very happy for you!
Well, your xh and the ow are still in the same place right where you left them. Nothing's changed w/them except maybe their age and weight. Oh, yeah, shoulder surgery. Yes, he wanted some sympathy from you...poor baby.
I hope he doesn't take you back to court for a change in visitation. If the kids are happy w/the arrangement as it is, then he should be too. Your kids are growing up so quickly and they sound like they are doing fine. Gosh, I can't believe it's been 2 years since your divorce. Time is flying!
I'm very happy that you and the kids are doing well and the new man in your life treats you well.
Please keep in touch and give those kids hugs for me!
Thanks KML and Job
I just heard from the bus driver that X talked to the kids about him going back to court to change visitation. So I guess the rumors are true. I would be lying if I said I wasn't freaking out about this. I am sure he has been gathering dirt on me these past two years. I just don't know what to expect. The kids don't want it to change, but I don't know what the courts will do. I dread going through it again. From what I understand he can submit a request, but I don't have to agree to it. If I don't agree they will send us to mediation all over again and if that doesn't work then another GAL and case study. I just feel like throwing up.
I am sure X knows I don't have the strength to go through this again and hopes I'll just give in.
WH
wishing/hoping,
This is an icky situation, but you can be strong. I don't know if I am the best to give this advice. But i will pray for you and your situation.
Thank you, TabD. I am sorry you find yourself here. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy…okay I would probably wish it on X. LOL.
Any encouragement you have is very welcome and appreciated. It has been over 4 years since my BD. I don't want my X any longer and can't even stand being around him for more than 30 seconds. And I am still being dragged into drama. Less than before, of course, because I stand back and refuse to help. It's time like this I wish I had a magic 8 ball that could tell me what to do.
X is even more delusional now that before, I'm afraid. S was telling me last night that now since the surgery his dad is on pills and they make him crazier than normal (S's words, not mine). Everyone in that house except for my kids are on some kind of medication.
But I'm just trying to stay level headed at the moment. It's very important when dealing with a nut case to stay level headed. Not sure if I should confront him or not? Maybe that's just what he wants.
WH
Hi WH. Thank you for your update, congrats on your engagement and I am very sorry to hear your X plans about the kids. I am not sure where you live, but I am in California and was told by my lawyer that the courts listen to the kids now. If they really don't want more time with H, they may have a voice.
Good luck and best wishes.
Thank you, Mleigh4
I live in Wisconsin. I was told the first time around the court doesn't like to get the kids involved. They didn't even speak to them the first time around. When I asked the GAL at what age the kids get a say, he said at 18.
I will talk to the kids and see what they really want. If they want to have the Sundays with their dad I will relent. If not, then I will say no.
WH
Hello again
Another update: I talked to S who said his dad's intent is to get what is rightfully his…namely his Sunday nights with his children. He told S that I screwed him out of those hours and it is only fair that he gets them back. Also, S said there may be some underlying medical condition with his father that is another reason he wants the kids for those 3 hours. I don't know what it possibly could be. S told me he can't tell me what it is until it is confirmed. I think X is looking for sympathy.
I asked S if he wanted to be with his dad during that time and he said no. I asked him if he said that to his dad and again he said no. I told S this could lead to an emotional and costly court battle which will in effect affect S and his sister. I don't know if he will have the courage to stand up to his father, and I don't really expect it to. I'm just not sure how this will play out.
NG says X sees me happy and is trying to ruin it. It will take more than that to ruin what I have with NG. He sure is a royal PITA though.
WH
Your xh is jealous and resentful of all that you've accomplished and doesn't like the fact that you and the children are happy and that all of you are living as one big happy family w/the NG.
As for the health issue, he may be using emotional blackmail to get the children to stay over on Sunday nights. Even if he's got a health problem, that doesn't mean he "has" have the children on Sunday nights. I would think he would want some peace and quiet after they've been there to visit.
He's just not a happy camper and will do whatever it takes to try to ruin your happiness and one way to do that is thru the children.
Thanks, Job.
I wish he would find some other area to create conflict. My NG put it perfectly. He's trying to create a distraction. Not only a distraction to my happiness, but a distraction for himself because he isn't happy and he can't handle reality so he needs a distraction on which to focus. Sad, really. But I realize our entire marriage was like that. His whole life has been one huge distraction.
I wasn't sure if I should confront him on his intentions and get it out in the open or if I should just sit back and let him make a fool of himself, which he will undoubtedly do. My good friend tells me not to engage: that things will work themselves out.
WH
I wasn't sure if I should confront him on his intentions and get it out in the open or if I should just sit back and let him make a fool of himself, which he will undoubtedly do. My good friend tells me not to engage: that things will work themselves out.
WH
Wishing/Hoping,
I hope you find the answer to this. I would say do not engage either.
its great that NG is supporting and helping you see straight thru this situation.
I wouldn't engage. He's been telling your kids this stuff so that they will tell you and then you jump on the band wagon and confront him w/the info. He wants you to get bent out of shape and initiate a heated confrontation w/him so that he can say that you are at it again (which we know isn't true).
Leave this miserable man to himself. He's not worth your attention right now. Sit quietly and the answers will reveal themselves.
H all!
Wishing I would have to agree with Job on this one.
BTW- Happy that you are doing so well!!!! Go girl.
Anyhow, it seems that Ex is trying to get you frazzled. Keep doing you and ignore the tantrum ex is throwing.
Look who has posted on this thread! BRNR, how are you? We've missed you!
WH, sorry you find yourself still dealing with the crazy MLCer ... and best wishes on your engagement to NG! Sounds like night and day for you, and well deserved joy.
I too say do not engage, but do expect the behavior to become more outrageous the less you respond.
Keep the faith and focus on what's important: your children and your new life. xoxoxo
Thanks everyone.
S had a band concert last night. Afterward, NG, his son and I waited in the hallway to congratulate S (it was X's night last night). X and D were also out there and D came over and hugged and kissed me and was talking to me. X just was pacing around looking haggard and just out of place…arm in a sling as well. It was late and we were tired so I went back in the auditorium to see if I could find S. I did and he came out to say hi and give hugs. As we were leaving, NG told me as soon as I went back into the auditorium, X followed me. NG said he was practically tailing me. I had no idea he followed me in there. Weird. NG asked me if X talked to me and I said no, I saw S and told him to come out to say goodbye. NG said X just followed me in like a lost puppy. Really? UGH!
So the guy is just crazy. And seems to be getting crazier!!! He even looks crazier. Arm in a sling, unshaven, look of panic in the eyes...ugh. And I married this guy?
You all are correct. I will not engage. I will just give it to God and see how it plays out.
And thanks for all the congrats!
WH
WH,
Thanks for your updates - good to hear about your new relationship.
Sad to hear that X is still trying to re-insert himself in your life.
I like the idea of 'distraction' to describe what he's doing.
It fits my current bout of XH re-appearance in my life (trying to drag me back into a court dispute about unpaid child support - after 5 years!).
How awful to be the mlc-er, living your life in this 'stuck' position.
Sending positive thoughts to you and your kids!
Hi NLW
Good to hear from you. Hope you and kids are well. : )
Yes, X has never stopped trying to re-insert himself into my life. I think the phrase "doesn't want me but doesn't want anyone else to have me" fits well. My mom told me from the day my divorce was final that he will never ever leave me alone. I am the only stability he's ever known and the only constant in his life. Makes me kind of sick to be honest with you.
They don't want us to move on and be happy. They want to keep us stuck as well. That's our prize in this and why we are ultimately the winners in this situation. Even though it doesn't feel like it.
Take care and hang on.
WH
Your mother is right...I was told the same thing a long time by an elderly lady. Some will never let go and will be a PITA for the rest of their lives and the only way we get rid of them is 6 feet under.
Continue moving forward...your present and future life are far better than the past one.
Another update:
As stated before, S told me X wanted to take me back to court to get kids on Sunday nights because as you all know I "screwed him" over in court.
X talked to S again last night to see if S had talked to me about this proposition. (So much for X having the guts to talk to me about this). S told X I was not happy and downright angry about it. X tells S that I have no right to be angry. He also told S he had no choice but to let me have the kids on Sunday nights because otherwise he would have been forced to enter into bankruptcy (insert huge eye roll here).
S told X, "Dad, I don't know why you are so hell bound to keep us for another 2-3 hours when all we are going to do is go to bed. Honestly, dad, I want to be with mom." X went on to tell S then I would take his dad back to court and get more child support and he just couldn't afford that and blah blah blah. S told his dad he didn't care, he was staying with me. X then goes on to tell S that his sister (my D) wanted to stay with him on Sundays. S just tells X then D can stay with you, but I'm going with mom.
I asked D later if she really wanted to stay at her dad's house on Sundays or if she wanted to come back home to me. She said "mom, I don't want to be at dads at all".
Since BD I have been absolutely terrified that I would end up losing my kids. For the first time since that day I feel I have absolutely nothing to worry about. He may try, but his attempts will be futile. I think I have come out on top.
So things may look bleak at the moment, but try to look into the distance. Stay true to yourself and keep smiling. Never let yourself get dragged into the trenches with the MLCer. Four years and counting and I have regretting nothing. Stay strong.
Peace!
WH
WH, thanks for the update. I can see that the drama continues with your xh… He just doesn’t know how to “get” you anymore, he wants some attention. I’m glad your kids voiced their opinions and that you are finally able to relax about the custody threats from xh. By the way, does he still wear that famous pink beret, LOL?
Pink beret.......no.....
LOL actually we called it "Raspberry Beret". LOL. But it isn't actually raspberry. It's more like an old man's tan color. He doesn't wear it often anymore. Of course, it's summer now so it doesn't make an appearance.
Thant’s right, a Raspberry Beret! I thought I was not getting it quite right, LOL. Are you saying he still wears it thought… Not in the summer time, of course…
Hey all
My ex has struck again. He called me Friday night raging over the fact that I had s remove a train that my stepfather bought him and bring it to my house. Now granted I have been out of the house for two and a half years. I argued that my family bought it for S and it should stay here. I also said since it belongs to S what difference does it make where it belongs. He told me if I did not return it immediately he would file a police report. I told him I didn't even know where Evan had the train. Again he said if I did not return it immediately he would file a police report I told him to go ahead.
So at 10 at night he dragged S down to the city police station to report me. I got a phone call from the police telling me X was down there and I really needed to return the train. I told them I would to avoid conflict but asked if it had to be that immediate moment. They said no and just to make arrangements.
I have heard nothing from ex thus far. I will return the train tonight when I pickup the kids. I feel terrible for what S had to go through. I don't know what else this idiot will do.
WH
Anything to keep the drama going. If it is your son's train, then he should decide where he wants it to be. If your step-father purchased the train for your son, then it is your son's train. I think I would have a chat w/your step-father about the issue and see what he would advise...maybe he'll purchase your son another one for your house.
I am so sorry that your xh is at it again, but he's really trying to keep you and your kids sucked into the drama.
Let me guess - is this train some sort of collector's item that has resale value? Or is your ex just nutty about trains and freaked out that he could no longer use it himself?
Did your son want it at your house?
I can't imagine that the police told you that you legally have to return it. Seems to me that if it came from your family, and belongs to the child, the child has the say which house it lives in. Is there really any standard to declare the kids' TOYS as property to be divided in the divorce??? Is it mentioned at all in the divorce papers??/
And yes, you ex is a gigantic weenie for putting your son through this. Good riddance.
Unfortunately my stepfather passed in 2008. I don't know if my mom would have any idea about it.
Of course now X says it isn't Evan's train. He claims it was a purchase from my stepdad and that he left it to X which isn't true at all. And yes it potentially has resale value. I'm not sure how much since the value of toy trains has plunged in recent years. I know this because I work for a company that specializes in hobby magazines. S will never get this train now unless my mom can prove that it belongs to her. And I am sure she has no clue or care.
The cop told me I have to return it which I don't really understand why. But I don't want S to undergo any more garbage with his dad than he already has. Something must have happened to set X off since this happened over two years ago.
Now I have to pick up the kids in 3 hours. I dread C being there. I am sure he thinks he has it over on me now.
WH
now X says it isn't Evan's train. He claims it was a purchase from my stepdad and that he left it to X which isn't true at all.
My best guess is that the train has some resale value and your ex is aware of that (or thinks that, even if it's not true) and is willing to throw son under the bus to hold onto it for the money. What a weenie.
Also, which is it? Did he buy it from stepdad or was it willed to him? Can't be both now, can it?
Actually X did neither one. He went to a trainshow years ago with my stepdad and he bought that for s. I told X at the time that train was way too expensive and nice for a four year old and had him out it away until S was older. Now he acts like my stepdad bought it for him which is absolutely not true.
But it's his word vs mine now. I have no proof and the police interviewed S who told them I told him to bring it to my place. They don't care if it belongs to my family or not. I guess I would have to take X to court if I wanted it back.
X likes things. He is a hoarder and he likes to have things. And he calls me the materialistic one.
WH
Just one thought - are you sure that stepdad bought it for S? or did ex just say that at the time so he wouldn't get in trouble for buying such an expensive item himself? Is it possible that he asked stepdad to cover for him when ex was the one actually buying it???
Hey KML
My mom and stepdad said the train was specifically for S. I called my mom to let her know about it and she was very angry. She said my stepdad would be rolling in his grave. But when I picked up the kids S told me his dad was setting it up for him in his room. I said if that's the case then it's fine. If not then I told s to let his dad know it was specifically bought for S.
S told me that he could hear his dad talking privately with the cop telling him all the stuff I took. In the car on the way home S told his dad it wasn't true and also told the cops it the train was the only thing I ever asked s to bring home. S also told his dad he knows the truth about why we got divorced. His dad told S if I hadn't been so bitchy about the divorce thing he probably wouldn't have gone through with it. What a piece of crap.
D is a mess. Crying and afraid I was going to jail. I told her everything is fine now. He certainly has no idea what he is making these kids realize about who he really is.
WH
His dad told S if I hadn't been so bitchy about the divorce thing he probably wouldn't have gone through with it. What a piece of crap.
Please.
I heard the same thing from my XW.
Garbage. All of it.
Take care.
Tad
Thanks, Tad. I know it's garbage. Absolute garbage. Still makes me shake my head that four years later he can't take one iota of responsibility for what happened. And he probably never will.
WH
My ex doesn't either. Although the last thing I want at this point would be for him to wake up and realize what he lost. I don't want him back so I figure he's happier believing his nonsense.
So after the antics X pulled, he has the nerve to call me and complain about money. AND expect sympathy. HA!
He has been on medical leave for rotator cuff surgery and I haven't received any child support in June. Bills are tight, but I'm doing okay. He owes me over $1000 by the way, which is a lot of money. I called child support after the antics he pulled last Friday to see what was going on. They haven't received a payment from him since May 27. Child support called him to see what was going on. X claims he had child support pulled from his disability checks, but nothing has been mailed into the child support agency. He is really freaking out about this.
Yesterday he calls me in a panic because he agreed to pay for D's soccer fees and they came in much higher than he anticipated. He agreed to pay for D's fees if I paid for S's fees. S's fee is $400 and X was under the impression D's fees would only be $225. I explained to X a month ago before tryouts that if she stayed at the academy level her fee would only be $225, but if she advanced to the competitive level they would be significantly more. He argued with me and said that wasn't the case. I said "OK, whatever you say".
He found out yesterday that D's fee is $680. He called me and said he could cover it with a credit card but he needed my half of the money right away. LOL. I gently reminded him that I agreed to pay for S's fees and I certainly was not going to nor could I afford to pay for S's fees and half of D's soccer at the same time. He went dead silent (which is extremely unusual and actually somewhat frightening). He just kept repeating "that's a lot of money". He didn't seem to have a problem paying $550 for S's fees last year.
I told him to check into going on a payment plan. He said if I do that I'll have to pay a $25 late fee. I said would you rather pay $25 for a late fee or cough up money that you don't have all at once? He said he wasn't paying $25 for a late fee. I said then I guess you have made your choice.
And I know he's full of crap because I am on a payment plan for S's fees (which I tried to explain to him) but he says the club will not accept a payment plan. Well, apparently not from him. LOL.
So he's late on child support, calls the cops on me, tells the kids bad things about me and he expects me to have sympathy for him and to help him out? HA!
He texted me last night too to tell me the fee was paid, but it really hurt him. Good. I told him later on I would take on another fee for the kids, like their uniforms or school fees.
Sometimes I think he's losing his marbles. If he has any left to lose at this point.
WH
Well this explains the train business; it's probably worth something and I bet he was thinking about selling it before you asked S to bring it to your house. Must be expensive trying to support himself and his disabled wife! He sure traded down.
I'm glad to see that you are standing your ground w/your xh. I'm sure he had to eat a lot of crow before he called you about the fees since he was such an @sshole about the train. It's unfortunate that he's in a tight financial situation, but he should be watching his money a bit better.
I'm really sorry that he's put you in a money pinch, but make sure you stay on Child Support about the funds. I don't believe for a minute he had things set up w/his disability checks so that you get your child support. He may have thought it was done....but he should have checked on that periodically to ensure it was done properly.
If he's on medical leave from his job, how can he get disability pay? Does he actually get paid for being out sick or is it leave w/o pay?
All I can say about the man is that he should have thought about what he did to you and your son w/respect to the train set. Had he behaved in a proper manner, maybe you would have been a bit more sympathetic towards him and his situation. They always think the grass is going to be greener on the other side and when things get tough, they call whining about their problems and hoping that we will help them out. He's now having to face the consequences of his actions.
Hang in there!
Thanks KML and Job
Ex was getting checks from his disability insurance while he was on leave. He went under the knife on May 10. I got one more support check after that so I am guessing he took two weeks vacation before he took disability. I haven't received a payment since. He's back to work now but it will be about a month before I start getting my support again.
Child support said they have no records of payment so if the support money (which he claims was taken out of his disability checks) doesn't come from his work soon he will have to pay it out of pocket. If he doesn't he will be in arrrears and they will add interest onto the back support he owes. And he knows from past experience that can add up fast.
He is spinning like a top
WH
Leave him spinning. It's his mess to clean up and he's going to have to figure out a way to get the child support caught up.
If Child support says that they have no record of payment, then they didn't receive it. I'm sure he'll come up w/the funds because he doesn't want to have to pay interest.
Sit back and watch the show...I have popcorn that I can share w/you. Around and around he goes and where he stops...no body knows!
Hey WH!
It's good to hear from you. I am chuckling here because you are LIVIN' the good life while XH is in the crapper with his sorry ass OW.
Sweet revenge.
He's a knucklehead for sure. Good job on sticking to your guns. That is the growth I see in you that is different from the early days. You've come a long way, baby! (((WH)))
Thanks all
Today on the boat S told me that X's wife has been shaving his legs. I took a double take and said what? He said yep. She's either shaving them or waxing them because his legs are smooth and not hairy. I said why on wart would she do that? S said because she believes in "manscaping". I said "what the H--- does that mean? S said its "landscaping your man". I have heard everything now.
Tell me again why I ever wanted this moron back in my life? Now I wonder what I ever saw in him in the first place. Yuk!
WH
Ummmm.....CREEPY!
I've heard of manscaping when it comes to pubic hair (something my ex creepily started doing shortly before he left for good, I always thought it was to make himself look bigger and/or to hide the gray hairs from the young chickies he was interested in lol). And I've known men who lasered off excessive chest.back hair if they had an abundance. But his legs? Competitive swimmers are the only ones I've ever known to shave their legs. You don't suppose your ex is a cross-dresser, do you?
(Apologies to any of the guys out there who are into extreme manscaping, I just like my men manly).
It sounds like he is trying to be "young" again. He's feeling his age and don't be surprised to hear that his entire body, except his head and eyebrows are being waxed or shaved off. Some go to the "extreme" w/manscaping.
So yeah now my ex is taking me back to court to get rid of his obligation to pay me maintenance. He tried to make me an offer of paying me $3000 (which he owes me anyway when the house sells). But the only terms he would agree to were paying me a minimum of $1000 a year for 3 years. No other payment terms were given. When I told him I was hesitant to make such an agreement he pulled the offer from the table and said he would see me in court. Yeesh.
In other news he told me he has a serious, near fatal condition with his heart. Something about an aortic aneurysm. I am not sure if he is being serious with me or not but I can't imagine even MY chaotic ex making up some story like that. He told me the doctor said his condition is critical and anything could happen at any time. He called me this weekend and said he was in the hospital with chest pains. They said he had an abnormal EKG and wanted him to be monitored and sent him home with nitroglycerin.
I hope he would not sell me such a story just to get sympathy. Any thoughts?
WH
Well, if your xh has a serious health condition, then he better make out a will which stipulates exactly what you and the children should receive, especially you because of the settlement issues. He also needs to up his life insurance too.
It's interesting that he's having chest pains. It may be serious and then again, it could be stress and anxiety about what he's done/doing and the fact that he owes you money. If he's taking you back to court, maybe your lawyer needs to ask for medical documentation concerning his health issue so that it can be put on the record in case he croaks any time soon.
Laying all jokes aside, he does need a will to stipulate what the children will receive, as well as any and all monies owed to you in case of his death. After all, if he dies before he pays you what he owes you, the new raspberry beret woman may not look favorably upon you and settle up the debt.
Just my two cents.
So what happens if he does not have a will? Will everything go to the wife? I am guessing she could contest anything she wants to anyway if she really wanted. If I know my ex there are no assets just debts. So I don't know how that would work.
If I were in your shoes, I would do some research on the matter of the estate and how this would be divided up when there is a second wife in the picture. Each state could be different in the way they handle such things. In my state, the current widow gets everything and it would be up to her if she wanted to give something to your children....but I seriously doubt she would be kind enough to do so. Unless your h stipulates in a will that he wants a certain portion of his estate to go to his children, the estate most likely will go to her. The current Mrs. Beret can contest a will until the cows come home. If the will is done properly, it will be difficult to get it overturned in court and that will cost a lot of money and time, which she doesn't have much of either, i.e., money.
Also, if he's paying into Social Security or did pay into it, your children may qualify for a monthly payment until they are either 18 or 21. Again, something you need to check into, especially the age limit.
As for the debts...they are hers to deal with! Don't be surprised that if he passes away, that she doesn't come calling wanting you and your children to help pay for the funeral expenses. Been there, done that w/my former xfil who was on his 5th wife at the time of his death. Fifth wife looks to his two sons to pay the funeral expenses because they were separated and he was living w/the current girlfriend.
I may be totally wrong, but I don't think your xh is going to cross over any time soon. Unless you've seen his medical documentation, I would sit back and just observe. It may or may not be a serious matter...but time will tell, just as the medical documentation will tell what's what. I wouldn't be too concerned until everything has settled down.
Thanks Job
I don't know what to think. There isn't much estate to deal with. More like debt.
Not my problem but I would think if things are so stressful at the home front and he has to avoid stress at all levels then his POS wife would step it up and get a job. Take some of the burden off her man. Guess that's too much to ask.
The way I figure if the courts reduce or take away my maintenance then he still owes me the $3000 if and when the house sells. I'll just cross that bridge if and when I get there. X thinks since OG and I are living together they will discontinue my maintenance. Perhaps they will, but I trust the courts more than I trust my ex.
And good luck to Mrs Beret if he wants help with the bills. I have been waiting a long time to give her a piece of my mind. If she would ever Be stupid enough to even broach that topic she deserves the tongue lashing I would be sure to give her.
I'm sure you could tell her a thing or two. When death comes knocking at the door, it always surprises me how people act and what they think they should get.
I wouldn't worry too much at the moment. Your xh is in good hands and the medical staff will take very good care of him.
I know. Crazy thing is after all these years and after all the mean things he has done and said it still makes me sad that this could be a "fatal" condition. The thought of my kids losing their dad saddens me. Is that odd?? I have joked many times how I wish he would take a flying leap. But now it's kinda horrifying actually.
But then again my ex flies off the handle as you well know. I don't think he's very good at reducing his stress especially when he seems to bring it all on himself.
No matter what your xh has done, he is still the father of your children. No one wants to see their former spouses have serious/fatal conditions w/the possibility of dying before their time. Yes, it does sadden you to think it could be serious.
His problem could be that he requires a pacemaker or needs to be put on heart/blood pressure medication. Maybe they will suggest he needs to change his diet to lose weight. He may need to cease w/the drink (if he's been doing that). There could be any number of reasons for his heart to be acting up. Running tests and monitoring his heart are the best steps to get to the bottom of his problem. Hopefully, the answers will come very soon and maybe medication or even surgery will help him live a longer life.
For now...all you can do is wait to see what the outcome will be from the tests.
As for the maintenance - it is not unusual for this to be discontinued if you are living with a man. In archaic terms, you are now considered HIS problem to take care of (new guy's, that is). This is part of why I do not live with my boyfriend.
As for the possible aortic aneurysm - this can be a big problem or a little one, depending on its size and location. Small abdominal aortic aneurysms are just a wait-and-watch kind of thing - surgical repair is too risky to do unless the aneurysm is so large that it is at risk of rupturing. Once they reach a certain size, they operate and place a graft to reinforce it.
An aneurysm of the aortic arch (where it leaves the heart) may be more urgent, but again, if he isn't scheduled for surgery in the near future, it may just be a wait-and-watch kind of thing.
And, I wouldn't put it past your ex to be making all of this up or exaggerating it wildly.
If he were to die suddenly, you would be able to get social security survivor benefits for your kids until they are 18.
He has an ascending aortic aneurysm. He said the doctor told him if anything happens it will be quick and he won't feel a thing. I was in shock the entire tokens was telling me this. I still am not sure what to believe.
But anyway he wants to reduce his stress level but yet is increasing it by making all this unnecessary drama. I hate to say it but perhaps karma is doing her job.
And if the courts decide to end maintenance so be it. But if we opening doors I might just have child support reviewed while we are at it.
WH
Look up medscape thoracic aortic aneurysm treatment, it's a pretty clear article. If he's symptomatic he should be having surgery. If they don't think his symptoms were related and the aneurysm is small they may be taking a wait and see approach. Does he have any Marfans features? ( tall, unusually long arms, think Michael Phelps).
Well, X is tall, not really thin. I think he used to be when he was lots younger. He's more muscular now. Well, except in the spare tire area. LOL. He does have crowded teeth. I don't know about the stretch marks. I never noticed anything when we were still together, but that's been a while. As I am looking at images of people with this diagnosis, I don't see X having this body style and the symptoms of Marfan.
I think he mentioned they didn't want to do surgery because it was too risky. I guess there is nothing they can do about it except, like you mentioned, wait and see.
As far as maintenance, I will just leave it up to the judge to decide. I am guessing a judge is going to be much fairer to me than X.
WH
I think he mentioned they didn't want to do surgery because it was too risky.
Well, that would imply that it's not too big yet. They wouldn't operate on a small one if the risk of it blowing out is less than the risks posed by surgery. That's why they usually wait until it reaches a dangerous size - UNLESS he is symptomatic, or has Marfan's or some other connective tissue disease, or a family history of aneurysms etc.
For instance, a small one has less than a 4% risk of blowing out in a year. If the risk of surgery is greater than that, they would wait and watch to see if it gets any bigger. Nerve-wracking I'm sure. This will probably bring on a second MLC.
Since he DID go to the ER with some symptoms, though, he should probably think about getting a second opinion, preferably from an expert at a large teaching hospital.
BTW, people with Marfan's typically have a "wingspan" that is greater than their height. Not foolproof but something he can check at home. If the distance between his fingertips with his arms stretched out to the side is greater than his height, he should be evaluated for Marfan's.
I am not sure about his wingspan. And as far as the second opinion, X would never listen to me anyway. When I asked him what he planned to do he just said he's going to live out the rest of his life making the best of things. His first goal is to re-connect with his son from his first marriage. His second is to live long enough to see S graduate from high school and lastly he hopes he can live long enough to give D away at her wedding one day (which will hopefully not happen for at least 15-20 years).
Maybe this diagnosis will make him evaluate things and straighten up his relationships with his kids. But more likely he will use it to gain sympathy and expect the kids to cater to him. I think that's why he used it on me. Didn't work.
On another topic, a dear friend of mine is going through almost the exact same thing I went through nearly 5 years ago. Her beloved husband of 16 years decided he was done. Is living with another woman and has filed and wants out. She feels like she has been kicked in the stomach. I am doing my best to be there and to help her "DB" as best as possible. It is hard not only to watch a dear friend go through the agony of what I went through but it is also causing me to go through the emotions of the breakup. Not that I want X back, of course, but just the mourning and loss comes back. It's incredibly sad to go through it yourself, but almost worse when you can only sit back and watch your dear friend endure it.
WH
Well X is still kicking. He filed the paperwork with the court to cease maintenance. Our case doesn't go in front of the court commissioner until November and I am not stressing about it. It's all up to how the commissioner reads things and our divorce agreement specifically states maintenance terminates upon remarriage of the recipient, not cohabitation. It is what it is.
But I wish you all could read the paperwork he submitted to the courts. Basically whining that NG has a boat and a pool and we are remodeling the house (we have re-painted one bedroom since I moved in). Also he noted that NG and I have a substantial savings account which we are using for a new home construction. How he thinks he knows all these details is beyond me.
He also requested that until we appear in court that all funds the child support order holds from his check for maintenance payments be held from me and placed into a "trust". At the end of the proceedings, these funds shall be released to me if I agree to accept them as a final settlement to the property division set forth in the divorce. In other words, if I want that money, he wants me to sign off on the $3,000 I would get if he sold the house.
He is up to something.
WH
WH,
I am thinking that XH is using the latest court filing as a backdoor fishing expedition to try and find out about your current financial situation because, I assume, he is experiencing some financial difficulties in his life.
I would want to have a L to work with the court to shut this notion of XH's quickly that he can just hope the Court would open up your financial records to him.
Ohhhh...to be a fly on XH's wall in his out with his banshee of OW screaming into his ear! Maybe she found out XW is no Daddy Warbucks after all.
But if he opens up all the financial records, he has to reveal his financial records as well, doesn't he? It isn't a one way street. AND he is living with someone too. How does that work? Do the courts look into what she makes (nothing) and consider that and how much NG makes and consider that? If he goes through all this rigamarole, I am going to request that child support be evaluated. I am sure he doesn't want his wages revealed. I think he just wants the commissioner to feel sorry for him and let him off the hook.
NG and I are not married. I could walk away tomorrow and have nothing. There is no obligation for him to cover my bills and I am not the recipient of anything if something should happen. So if I lose my maintenance and we never get married then what?
I can't really afford a lawyer since I am still paying off the lawyer from the previous debacle.
WH
He doesn't want you, so, nobody else should want you either. I smell fish. Don't know about the legal system in the US, but in the UK, once you agree in court, that's it, no going back.
Sleazebucket!!!!!
I agree that he's on a fishing expedition and wants to see just what you have. He doesn't stop to realize that he's in the same boat of having someone living w/him and she is most likely getting some type of social security check because of not being able to work. Also, that home is in his name. I think he figures that you are using the child support to do whatever and not using it for the children. May I suggest that you come up w/a spreadsheet that indicates all expenses for the children, i.e., what comes in and what goes out. What you and your NG brings home is none of his business. The only people he needs to be concerned with are the children.
I'm wondering why he suggested a trust. Does he think that no one will be looking at that trust? Does he think that his name would go on it and then he could come along and take money out whenever he wanted. The kids need the child support now and not later.
If this issue comes up, I would suggest that he lay out all of his financial information too and I wouldn't cough up any info until he's done his as well. BTW, how does he know what you have or don't have?
Don't agree to anything. I think the current way of doing things is working nicely. It's his problem if he's having financial difficulties. Maybe it's time to put Big Momma to work doing something, even if it's answering a telephone for a telemarketer. Maybe he needs to consider selling the money pit he's living in and go from there. Maybe he's thinking about retiring on disability and knows he won't have the funds to meet his child support payments. But again, he created his house of horrors and now he needs to figure things out. Don't give him an inch.
Thanks, Job. He isn't contesting child support (yet). This is for spousal support, which he hasn't wanted to pay since day 1. He worked and worked to get out of it, now he thinks the courts will let him off since I live with NG. The courts might and they might not. I haven't been asked to bring anything to court. My guess is they will want to re-evaluate finances. Maybe they won't and make a decision right then and there. But it's been my experience with the courts that they don't make decisions on the spot and there is ALWAYS a secondary hearing.
If anyone has any experience with this please chime in. I have no idea what to expect.
WH
I still think he's on a fishing expedition and is hoping that he can prove that you have a closet full of money. You aren't remarried and like you said, the relationship could go sour and then what? I definitely would fight this one. He's apparently very jealous and vindictive enough to pull this stunt because he doesn't want to pay spousal support and he probably doesn't like it that you are living better than he is.
I do hope that everything works out for you. I knew your xh was going to be a PITA because he just can't let go and he needs to have drama floating around all of the time. Stand your ground.
Oh I plan to fight it most definitely. I already have notes and NG is getting documentation that his stuff was purchased before I moved in. I am just not sure if I will need to bring financial documentation to the initial hearing and how does that work if I share bills with NG?
WH
WH -
I would not be penny-wise and pound-foolish on this - get a lawyer.
I suspect a judge would want to know how your living expenses have changed since moving in with the boyfriend. For instance, do you pay him rent? If so, how much and how does it compare to your previous rent? Utilities?
Really, it seems that these are the only expenses that would be different since moving in with him. If you're not paying rent, then the courts might decide that your expenses are that much lower and might possibly decide that your alimony could be reduced by that much. But I would imagine that this varies a lot by state and only a lawyer could help you know how best to attack this.
I DO think that this is an opportunity to have child support recalculated based on his current income. That counter-punch might also cause him to reconsider the whole fight. But again, I think you really need to consult an attorney to find out how best to proceed.
Well I was paying rent to him directly but now we have a combined checking account. It was just easier that way. I pay 1/2 the rent, water, electrical, gas, groceries, etc. my expenses are higher now actually than they were before I moved in with him.
I don't have an issue consulting an attorney but I certainly don't want to end up paying a lot of money to an attorney when I may be remarried in less than a year.
WH
And I intend to have child support reviewed as well. But since my maintenance amount was dependent on my child support and vice Versa, wouldn't the court look into it anyway?
WH
So I'm back peeps. I went to court Monday with X for his request to terminate maintenance. He was denied. He is mad again, of course. Called me and stated he is going to appeal and take it to the judge for a de novo review...similar to what happened when I was ordered to leave the marital home.
He wanted to "warn" me that if he goes through with this de novo hearing, there is a chance the judge will make me pay back all the maintenance he has paid me since he filed this request in September. I know it's a threat. I've already contacted a lawyer. We will see what the chance of that happening is. There is always a chance, I guess. But what is the likelihood?
He says it is completely unfair that I am living within my means and he is struggling. He says the courts are biased and unfair. In his own words, they are "a joke".
The court commissioner determined he still earns 66% of the income while I only make 34%. She told him his debt is his problem and he can't get out of his obligation to me because he has too much debt. She said if I was entitled to NG's house and other assets it would be a different story, but I'm not because we are not married.
Just goes to show you it's been 3 years post divorce and he's still as crazy as ever, if not crazier. He tried to bring up the unfairness of the divorce property division and she told him that was all a mute point. Now he's absolutely spinning.
I guess I've lived through it this long. Just another hill on the roller coaster. Anyone reading this know it's a long long haul.
It must be absolutely miserable to be him.
WH
Gosh, he's still nuttier than a fruitcake! I guess the beret has gotten entirely too tight and his brain cells are squeaking.
Hey, he's finding out what the consequences of his actions are bringing down around him. His debts are not your problem. The judicial system is getting tired of his whining and playing victim, i.e., poor me.
No one would want to be in his shoes. He's is one miserable man and he's going to be stuck in that rut for a long time.
So, how are things going in other areas of your life? How are the children?
Thanks Job. Always good to hear from you! Always look forward to your voice of reason!
Wedding plans are going well. Weddings are expensive...even small weddings. It's gonna be really nice. The kids are excited!
S is getting straight A's and is in the highest choir and band level at this high school and he's also in the top 23% of his class. I am so proud of that boy I could burst!
D is growing into a true beauty inside and out. She is very wise beyond her years and loves science and math. She sings like a bird and is going to be a very talented musician one day.
S tolerates being with his dad. Their relationship is better, but still strained and I'm afraid it always will be.
D is still a daddy's girl but unfortunately she's starting to see through the cracks. She doesn't like being around OW and her kids. OW recently had her 7th back surgery and still doesn't work and kind of treats D like her own personal nurse. It's kind of disturbing.
I wish I could do something about their situation but I just try to take life one day at a time.
WH
I'm glad to read that the children are growing by leaps and bounds and are doing well in school. I'm sorry that their father is such a pita...but as they continue to grow up, they will begin to notice things that just don't click w/their father and what he says and does. It's really a shame.
Now, his comments are more revealing...the wedding has got his knickers in a bunch/twist. He's miserable at home and he doesn't want to see you happy and more importantly married. He figures if he threatens about the support money enough, you'll stay single and he will have you right where he wants you. Can you say "control"? He's lost the plot and doesn't understand that he's lost all control over what you say, do and basically life in total.
Continue as you have been. It's been a heck of a ride for you, but you've come a long way and it looks like things will get so much better for you and the children soon.
Ugh the thought of that fool wanting to maintain control over me and not wanting me to remarry is absolutely nauseating. He has his OW who is so wonderful and caring and unselfish. They are absolutely two peas in a pod. Despicable.
Unfortunately, after all I have been through I still can't shake the reaction I get when talking to him. And all the time he acts like he's doing me a favor. Like it won't be him who makes the decision to pay him retroactive support...it will be my fault and the court's fault, not his. He is truly delusional.
I'm tired of this ride. LOL. I am ready to switch to a ride that's a little less bumpy.
WH
This just in: a lawyer advised me that while anything is possible in a de novo hearing, it is generally unlikely that he will change the commissioner's decision and make me pay back all the maintenance I have received since last September. Makes me feel better, but I still wish this guy would take a flying leap. He is absolutely exhausting.
Eight more years of this stuff until D is 18. Then I will tell him to take a flying leap!
WH
Ugh. I am still biting my tongue as my ex is helping with S26's college. I imagine by the time I am actually free to say what I think it won't be worth it anymore.
Seven back surgeries???? OW is a mess, isn't she? There's almost never an indication for that many surgeries. Your ex really won the lottery there, so he's jealous when he sees you having a good life.
I highly doubt X will contribute anything to either kids' college education. He will be singing his poor poor me pity song until they carry him out out in a box.
OW is something else. I don't know exactly how to put her into words, but she's unreal for sure. She was in the back of the court room when X was grilling me just shaking her head and wagging her finger. I wish I would have done a mic drop when the court commissioner announced her decision.
He will be taking care of her for as long as he can tolerate being married to her, which will probably be as long as her father keeps feeding them money.
WH
WH
OW does sound like the lottery prize
unbelievable what these MLCer pull in to marry
and all the fantasy life they thought they were getting
just hard to understand-and they would probably defend their decisions till the end