H now often says where he is going/when he will return. Now more then he did immediately following BD 3/31/15. (Who knows if it is the truth, but he sometimes seems to understand that it is the social norm to give such info. when you leave the house.)
Last night he left at 10pm and returned at 11:15pm w/out saying anything when he left. He sleeps in downstairs BR.
Should I also sometimes leave without saying anything. It kind of feels like playing games or doing the whole tit for tat thing? I would never normally behave this way. Some advise this as a 180/adding mystery, I know. Thoughts?
Thread in newcomers
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2582197#Post2582197Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2560187#Post2560187Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hiya, Who.
Sometime soon you'll get greetings from the MLCville mayor, Job. You're in a good place here with wonderful and inspiring folks.
Thank you Wonka!
Recently, H and I had a conversation where I was able to practice one of my 180's. I genuinely validated him, responded to the information vs. reacting to it and then walked away calmly. It felt great and H looked surprised, too.
Special thanks to Asitis who keeps at me to GAL and detach.
You also have enough homework to keep you busy for days!
Do the homework from both threads!
Ok. I am on it. Thanks everyone for all the help and support.
Yesterday I came back from work later than I usually do w/o texting or calling.
After I came in H came out from his room (where he is 23/7) when he is home. He grabbed water but I know he came out to see if I had groceries and is that why I was late? Had no groceries and his wheels were turning.
At 2 am I came downstairs for water. When I came back up to my room a text popped up from him, from downstairs saying goodnight. First time he has said this in months. Peeked his head out yesterday.
Question: at BD, my H asked to have apartment, see women and still come home for the kids. I said no. Days later I asked him to please let me know if he started PA or EA as a basic boundary. He said this was "all agreeable" to him.
Jack 3 Beans writes:
Until the MLC starts showing positive and real signs of coming back...boundaries and consquences hurt you and what you think you want more than they do them. You are pushing them and presuring them to assuage your own desires regarding them in a relationship role they have shown you...they currently do not want.
So now that I know this is MLC and I set this boundary long before he shows signs of coming out, what can I do about this? Did I create a situation that will make it harder for him to come back?
You said something and now you want to know if he believes your words?
I dont think it matters, he will more than likely not remember much later down the road.
He will trust actions not words.
What Do your actions say?
My actions say I am acting "as if."
Validations are words and yet we rely heavily one those. They become a sort of action, right? At times, when I have genuinely validated H, I have seen the "hypnotic" effect these validation have. Yet they are words.
Hi Ha, I would say nothing and continue to act 'as if.' I also wouldn't expect him to tell you if he starts (what you would call) an EA or a PA. In his MLC mind, if he began seeing someone else, he may see that as 'dating' or a 'new R' rather than an EA/PA.
Early on in my sitch, H suggested that we could get together as a family (he, SS and me.) I said no to that. I wasn't willing to spend time as a family when he was having a PA and I told him that. It may have 'harmed' my sitch in some way, IDK - but it was the right thing for me in terms of sanity. I might have spent that 'family' time hoping to attract him back. But here I am almost a year later and he says he is about to file for D. I must say, at this point, I truly don't regret having set clear boundaries with my H. He may not want us to be together just now - but he does tell me he loves and respects me.
So, I think in terms of boundaries, it is a case of keeping the focus on you. What can you live with? What won't you tolerate? What will maintain your wellness in a difficult situation? And act on this basis. You can't control what he does of course. But you can control how you are willing to interact with him given present circumstances.
Take care and good luck!
Days later I asked him to please let me know if he started PA or EA as a basic boundary. He said this was "all agreeable" to him
He won't tell you, so don't expect it. If he's moved out so he can see other women, he is ALREADY seeing other women anyway, trust me.
He's just not man enough to be honest about it yet -he'll think he's "protecting you" but really he's protecting himself from having to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Your best bet is to focus on YOU, on creating a life that you want for yourself, finding the parts of yourself that you lost in the marriage. He'll want to think you are just sitting there waiting for him to come back - a comfortable Plan B. Don't let him think that! let him worry that you might move on before he has made up his mind. Make your life look so interesting and fun that he wonders why he left it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^Holla at kml with the spot on answer.
Ha,
I'm so sorry you find yourself here. There are so many fabulous people here offering wisdom, support, advice, etc.
Yes, I have heard about people wanting to date other people while married and made that announcement at BD. I don't say this to be harsh, but your boundary will be unenforceable. Your h isn't going to call you up and say, "FYI, I just hooked up with Emily and wanted you to know." Nope. Not happening.
I know it is such a challenging position, however, you really must focus on yourself. Your h is nowhere done, so don't expend a great deal of energy on reconnection at this point or wonder if it's hard for him to come back. He is gone. He is nowhere near any self reflection. Let him be. Focus on your financial safety and building the life you want.
It truly gets better. Hang in there:)
Welcome to the rough side of the tracks
All that stuff ^^^^^ spot on. Not sure how long you have been at this but yeah .. your H out on his own ... consider him a teen who just went away for college, he will contact you for the usual things .. money, laundry, maybe to make sure he is still loved. But as many have stated .. he is out doing his thing where momma Hawho can not see it.
Couple things to keep in mind .. this is his crisis, his thing .. let him figure it out, its not your journey, you have your own, do not try to make sense of it nor think if I do this or that .. he will do this or that. Just know, the MLCr expects us to be just where they left us ... on a shelf, when we move they will react usually in some way ... spew, tempcheck, touch n gos ... read a bit and then read again till you know this stuff and can use it on the fly.
Just some quick tips....
Pressure: MLCrs do not care for it in any regard, just keep that in mind.
Time: this is not going to be over in weeks, nor a month or two ... its a very long process and there is no timeline on when it will be over.
So ... all you can truly do at this point, detach, live your own life and work on you, become the best person you can possibly be .. go out and experience life.
Can someone point me to info about an MLCer who remains living at home with kids in house? I have seen lots of info about what to do when MLCer returns home. I know Flowmom was in similar sitch. Any others or any resource links differentiating this category of MLCer?
Can someone point me to info about an MLCer who remains living at home with kids in house? I have seen lots of info about what to do when MLCer returns home. I know Flowmom was in similar sitch. Any others or any resource links differentiating this category of MLCer?
I happen to know her and her husband is still in the basement,
although he is starting to reconnect with the kids.
Hey there,
couldn't help but notice the boundary re letting you know of ea/pa. I thought I had the same boundary but w finally admitted OM and that it had been going on over 12 mths. fwiw I don't believe the 12 months either. She admitted ea to him whilst in the same home but moved out soon after. I have no doubt she probably moved out to be with him. They will almost never keep to this type of boundary. That's not to say he won't as every sitch is different.......also depends where he is up to in the process.
Re staying at home with kids I can't really help you sorry. Most sitchs I have read involve them moving out esp where OM/OW are involved. But sure there will be examples somewhere that others can point you to.
Forever young has done well with his W still at home but no OP and no kids. Principles remain the same regardless, focus on your life and kids, giving them space to figure for themselves.
Take care
Lionhrt- thank you for the info.
Cadet-I will search out Trustingfaith's threads.
Yesterday H said we should all go away for day; hours later said he did not want to go away. H suggested another trip (unclear if I was invited or if this was just just for him and the kids.) In a matter of 1-2 minutes he changed the plan completely at least 4 times. Then decided to do nothing! So opposite for him.
Then, I was playing a board game w/the kids and he seemed to be trying really hard to sit and the table with us all and talk. Seemed to be wrestling. He did manage to stay at the table for 10 or so minutes.
What is this wrestling all about? Does it mean anything? He notices the dog again and connects with kids more. Haven't seen this behavior yet.
It means his is in MLC and his brain is going through uncomfortable and uncontrollable gyrations. Just let him wrestle, try to be non-reactive, listen, and validate. Keep your space and detach for your sanity.
On the boundary setting. The most you can ask for is do you intend to date or not. If they say yes, assume A will be forthcoming if not already. If they say no, it may or may not be forthcoming or already ongoing. See why everyone is giving you the, it doesn't really matter. The question is what will you do.
First, assume he is having an affair, so if you reconnect and begin having sex again, protect yourself.
Second, don't ask about his activities and whereabouts. He doesn't want a leash, he feels like you are constraining him/not letting him be who he can be, and he will resent and run that much faster if you try. So no more questions about As or OW.
Third, read & reread the detachment thread in Cadet's welcome post, as well as the other MLC resources. Then reread the detachment thread again.
Good luck, sorry you are here, and trust that you will not always feel this crappy.
I have not asked about OW, EA, PA, etc since a few days post BD #2, so around early April. As soon as I figured out it was MLC I knew it does not matter to ask.
I read somewhere that MLC is like a tornado ripping through your house. You have to get to a safe place until it is over. It is dangerous to come out before it passes. And, there is not point in evaluating the damage during it as the tornado is ongoing. Best to wait, stay safe, then evaluate the damage and plan your course.
This analogy is especially fitting for my sitch as MLC lives at home/never left but lives like another child.
TrustingFaith I happen to know her and her husband is still in the basement,
although he is starting to reconnect with the kids.
This IS a LINK!
Click on her name!
Hi HaWho, sorry that you find yourself here, but welcome. You have been getting some great advice from some of the best so listen and learn.
My advice is to read everything you can about MLC, it really can help make some sense of what to expect from your h. Next thing is don't take anything h says personally and don't believe anything he tells you either - he will say and do anything he pleases, whether to get him out of a sticky situation, whether to try hurt you or just because he can - build armour quickly - it can get very hurtful at times.
Sadly this is the start of a long journey and no ones knows how it will end. All you can do is let your h go on his journey into crazy crisis and focus on yourself and your kids now. Try to do something nice for yourself everyday, even if it is just a walk in the fresh air or a bath, its important you are kind to yourself and look after your mental and physical well being - especially for your kids, they need a stable parent and right now you are it.
HaWho, I really feel for you, you are doing great,hang on in there, look after yourself
((hugs))
Thank you LouR for all your kind words, wonderful advice and your support.
I am working hard to maintain my PMA throughout the alien moments. This is the part of my armor that has too many kinks in it right now. Plus, as you say I am the only stable parent in the home right now and they need the PMA too.
After a few days of peeking his head out (further than he has up to now) H is right back to withdrawing. I see the pattern of this cycle and am getting used to it.
In AM H seemed to be testing me; I really do think he was trying to pick a fight. He has been very angry and I think he wants a reason to pin it on me. I acted as if and he actually said hello cheerfully-wow!!
Question: I know they test to see if changes are legitimate. Are there other reasons? Any other logic? H really seemed to want me to react and circled back to same issue.
Some good:he was doing some paperwork and instead of doing it in his room he did it in the dining room. He faced out and stayed for a few hours! I played music that I used to listen to in college. It brought me back to such happy days! I also played Monopoly with the kids, then went to movie. Despite the bumpy start, great end. PMA gave me some control!
Should I also sometimes leave without saying anything. It kind of feels like playing games or doing the whole tit for tat thing? I would never normally behave this way. Some advise this as a 180/adding mystery, I know. Thoughts?
No! If you enjoy having him keeping you informed of his whereabouts, then you do the same.
But, continue giving him time and space... LOTS!
Do this and he'll be less likely to leave, and more likely to maintain connection with you.
You sound like you are in very good shape, considering what's going on with your H and M. Good for you!
Thanks ForeverYoung for the advice.
I have gone back and read some about your sitch. Like you, my S is also in the house. Seems to be rare in the MLC world!
I laugh out loud at a lot of your posts. Love the idea of getting drunk at w's work event and explaining the sitch at home!
We were at the beach w/kids and others yesterday. We drove separately. When H went to leave on his own, one of the guys said "you guys drove separately?!?" Traffic and parking are a nightmare this time of year. It was embarrassing. I left H to flub through an answer.
Wish I could've just said: oh, H is having his MLC right now. Anyone else in MLC can carpool down with him!
Need to vent and have parenting through MLC question. As I am making a nice 4th of July breakfast H just decides to leave for a walk!
I ask casually: should we wait for you or eat without you? He asks: what are you making? When I answer he says "nah" and leaves.
Unfortunately children are in the room. Lord, after they watch this all for years I wonder if they will consider this all normal social/marital behavior? I feel like I am giving them a doormat 101 tutorial. Anyone out there living with MLCer and kids have advice on how to handle this with kids?
Gotta LOVE the selfishness of MLC. I wonder if the planet will ever stop revolving around him?
Going on cheerfully "as if/PMA" with my kids.
Ok - fell of my PMA/as if perch today. So hard to keep this up with MLCer in home.
H came back from walk as kids and I were clearing dishes from 4th of July brunch. I wanted to get out the door for a walk with kids and dog before he returned but he came back quicker than expected. I was still mad when he returned. Just wanted to get away from him.
As he came in he said he did not realize I was making a breakfast. He thought I was just making english muffins? I don't know if I buy that. There were cooking items spread out on the counter. But with his fog who knows what he sees in his parallel universe.
As kids said we were taking dog out he said: ok I'll come. I really did not want him to as I was still mad about breakfast. Wish I had just bowed out.
He was waiting for me outside. I think it was his way of apologizing. I should have walked with him, even if in silence. But instead I walked ahead. Not mature on my part & missed 180 opportunity.
Toward end of walk he mentioned something to one of the kids and I interjected. Should have just kept my mouth shut. We seemed to be working through it. He asked me to calm down. I did feel really worked up inside--need to recognize that and control it better-a 180 I need to do.
Then I brought up breakfast. He said I should have told him I was making it. I said I did but he said that I only did so as he was walking out the door. I insisted he must have seen the cooking items spread out on the counter. He says he didn't. I said "then you should get your eyes checked." Not my proudest moment. He was quiet. We went back and forth a little. Mostly calm & he told me it was no big deal. I thought: easy for him to say as he WAS NOT the one working to make a nice breakfast.
I shot a passive aggressive truth dart saying "yeah well if it had been x and y (his two new regressive MLC friends) you sure would have been there." He came home and went in his room. No shocker there.
BUT: after 20 mins. he came out and hung out with us for an hour! I made him a cup of tea and he made me and the kids a smoothie. As he made me the smoothie he joked "do you want gin or vodka in it?" I said "both!"
This is a 180 for both of us as usually we held onto things for too long and gave too much silent treatment. See where I need to work. But, it was HUGE that we moved past it so quickly. If he makes it out of MLC and this part stays, I welcome this new aspect!!!
HaWho,
I can imagine it's tough with him in the house. I think it's great that you are recognizing your own behaviors and reactions that you want to change. It sounds like you still have a lot of expectations from him
Imagine how you would speak to him if he were a roommate or neighbor. You wouldn't take it as a personal affront that he skipped breakfast-- because you likely wouldn't have been making it for him. And you wouldn't have brought it up later.
Something my coach told me that I thought was great advice was to ask myself if my actions are more likely to draw him closer or push him away? It seems like you are doing a lot of pushing.
Can I ask how you feel like a doormat? It's an honest question that I think is worth exploring. I think it's great you responded to him attempt at getting past the conflict. Perhaps wanting to go for a walk with you was another attempt at that-- you weren't ready for it. And he tried again! I see a bunch of positives. Can you see them too?
It sounds like he wants a bit of space and less expectations/pressure... can you give him that?
Hang in there!
Hi Claire - nice to meet you and thanks for chiming in.
I do see the positives. I saw them as they were happening. I know that I should have reacted differently at the onset of the walk. I also need to lower my expectations to zero and REALLY think of him as a house guest. My DB coach told me the same.
Why do I feel like a doormat? That is a very good question. Since BD I have been parenting by myself for quite a while, like those of us with kids do. In the last few weeks he has again started to realize that there are children in the house! I know this is a VERY positive turnaround. But, these last few months, where I have been parenting by myself have reminded me of when my kids were young where I also shouldered most of the child rearing myself. H supported us very well but raising the kids, bathing them, diapering them, etc. was all my job, even on weekends. It was extreme by anyone's standards. I recognize now that he was immature and didn't grow up enough to do the things he didn't feel like doing. And I put up with it. It makes sense he needs to have his MLC and that I have resentment.
As kids grew older he was better. He wanted us to spend more time together as a married couple. We did. Deep down it just felt to me like too little too late. I tried to talk to him about it on several occasions but he could admit no fault whatsoever. So I held onto that resentment because he has never truly validated me on this issue. A few months ago it came up again in conversation as he was in the fog and he told me he was "flawed" in this area. That is the closest he has ever come to acknowledging it.
Those were rewarding yet hard, lonely years. I felt everything was on his terms and here again, it's everything on his terms. His MLC, his need for time and space. Blah, blah, blah.
Oddly the day turned around. We took the kids out and had a nice day. The kids wanted to do different things and one child asked if I could take one to do "x" and while H could take the other child to do "y." A month ago H was suggesting this sort of thing ALL the time. I thought he would jump all over it today. But today H said "no, why break up the band?"
HaWho, it will be a s-l-o-w turnaround as H works his way through the crisis.
There will be little nice things along the way... enjoy them, but don't think that it means he's done baking. He won't be for a while.
Job tells us that slow and steady wins the race. Go for that!
I read your opening post in Newcomers. It reminded me of some things I had forgotten from the beginning of our crisis. (I like to think of it as "our" crisis, not "her's". I understand what she's going through and how she got there. It's really not her fault, and she deserves to be loved!)
The avoiding eye contact, the "dead" look in her eyes, the hiding in another room, the going to bed without saying goodnight...
I'm so glad that's mostly behind us now!
If doing all the child care leaves you feeling like a doormat, don't be afraid to ask H to help out with certain tasks. He can and likely will help if you ask nicely... when he does you'll feel better about the sitch, and it will give you more strength to stand... which you're gonna need!
Hi Cadet-Hope you had a nice 4th of July.
Thanks for the link to Trustinginfaith's posts. Very helpful!
I have read that somewhere on the forum are the posts of Happyending or Happyendings? (Maybe even happy_ending or happy_endings.) Many people say he gives an excellent description of what it's like inside one MLCer's mind.
Can you please send me the link and/or tell me how to find this person? I have tried to search for the name but nothing pops up. Hopefully this does not mean his posts have not been deleted!
Thanks ForeverYoung for all the advice. And thank you for the reminder that he deserves to be loved and that slow and steady is best.
Yesterday was a strange day, lots of good. As some with live-in MLCers say this is especially hard to watch because you get glimpses of what "could be." It is painful. As we were heading out to see fireworks, I just started to cry. We were in the car w/kids and I tried to hide it and recover. They were quiet tears not like it was completely obvious. But I know he noticed. As we were walking to the car he said "maybe you need an allergy pill." I didn't say anything.
At dinner there were only large beers. He asked if I wanted to split one. I said sure, very casually. Trying not to analyze and hoping he wasn't sharing out of pity for me. During the fireworks he spoke in future "next year we should try to see a different fireworks display." A few weeks ago I was thrilled when he spoke of future Christmas plans. I know not to read anything into this. Today all I thought, was what will be left of me in 1 year? I need some serious armor. As we left he said "another fireworks in the books."
Positives: today he took one of the kids on his errands with him so I could pick up the house. So normal it was strange.
I need some advice.
I realize I am stuck mentally and don't know how to progress.
I have recently gone back to work full time and H is in MLC and lives/works from home. His routine is he works for a few hours in AM. On M, W, F he hires a babysitter from about 10-1:00 or 2:00. On T, Th he leaves the kids alone during that same time. He says he needs "to think about things" during this time. Maybe this is true or maybe he is also having an affair during this time, as well.
I think the duration is too long/lonely for the kids and I don't think we should pay a sitter for this every day. I just feel this whole sitch is so crazy. Why can't he limit the time/days out? He refers to himself as the stay-at-home dad but 3 hours to yourself EVERY day? So hard to co-parent young kids with an MLCer!!
One of the things also tripping me up is if he is having an affair I want him to move out. I have told him "no" on an open marriage which he asked for at BD. I said if you are having an EA/PA tell me before it starts. He agreed but many here have warned me to prepare for him to lie/already be lying on this.
Having the EA/PA is a definite "you need to move out for me" and it's a fork in my road right now. But there is no point in asking him as I don't believe what he says these days. I don't want to have him followed as I feel sneaky doing so. But what if he is cake eating? Thoughts?
Hawho
As far as the 3 hour thing ... I would go nuts being a stay at home dad without a 'break' from the kids, 3 hours to me is not that much to ask for to get myself out ... do something remotely adult ... and clear my head. Now is he is MLC ... that head is 40x more cloudy than mine so I might not put pressure (We all know how an MLCr reacts to pressure) on this topic.
If it were flipped, wouldn't you need some 'me' time?
As far as the EA/PA .... "Believe none of what they say and only 50% of what they do" right?
Your H knows that this is a deal breaker for you .. you were clear, why on earth tell you? Even more so .. the fact dude is a stay at home type ... where would he go?
Regardless of EA/PA or not, you DB or you don't .. the A (if its going on) is not the reason you are having issues at home, its all the stuff that has you here ... along with the MLC ... and the MLC typically has an A associated with it.
[quote=CaliGuy]Hawho
Hi CaliGuy-thanks.
Follow up question: but as we are living together, if he is having an affair then he's cake eating. What's to disrupt this if he gets to play model dad AND keep girlfriend.
I am coming to terms with my hand in all this. I know the affair is not the start. I went through a depression the lasted 3 years and I distanced myself. Also per his feedback (which is true) prior to this, I focused too much on the kids, did not make him a priority, etc.
He wants "time and space" but I know I need to work at rebuilding the friendship that was lost. But there's no way I can work on the friendship myself with someone who will cross streets to avoid me. And yet we co-exist in the same house?!?
First of all - I know opinions vary on this, but I would not feel comfortable leaving a 9 year old and an 11 year old home alone. Just for example, do you think either of them could successfully perform the Heimlich maneuver on the other? I would spring for the sitter for all 5 days. Working from home is not easy with interruptions from kids.
Second - as to your questions about whether to have him leave or not - it depends on a lot of factors. Is an affair a dealbreaker for you? Are you able to use him still being in the house to showcase the "new you" ? Does it financially benefit you for him to stay? You may want to make a Pros and Cons list and sit on it for a while.
If you're pretty definite that an affair is a deal-breaker for you, then you already know the days and times when it is probably happening, and could hire someone to tail him or (although this may not be legal in your state) put a tracking device on his car.
One question - does the current babysitter say he stays working in the house while she's there, or does he leave when she is there?
Hi KML-thanks for the response and the opinion.
He leaves when the sitter comes and he told me he would leave when the sitter came. He is the type who would have been overwhelmed staying at home w/kids before MLC so I am sure this is arduous. Probably I should spring for a babysitter for all three of them! He is in the fog-very scary to witness!
I think your advice about the pros and cons list is solid. Need to reflect.
He has not moved out. He is still living at home. I think this is what makes it a bit diffferent of a sitch. So, if he is home and having an affair then he is a cake eater.
If he moved out after BD then that is different. But living at home, if he is having EA/PA he is playing model dad to kids, family etc. Basically he is getting everything he wants.
There is for and against MLCers continuing to live at home. They are called 'drop ins' by some, as opposed to 'Drop Outs' who can't get away fast enough, and treat us as if we had the plague, and 'droplets' but move out but stay in touch.
So little is really known about MLC - apart from having the almost universal denominator of a seriously strange upbringing together with a personality that does not cope well with failure or change (probably because their upbringing didn't give them coping skills.
Some MLCers stay for a while and then leave; others finally get kicked out by their long suffering wives, and some reconcile without their ever leaving.
MLC follows a script, but with variations. It is hard having them home in crisis, but it is also hard having them leave, especially if they set up with an OP.
HaWho - I am in a similar situation.
When H is in the country he lives at the marital house with me and the children. After BD in Feb he stubbornly refused to leave - his reasons were b/c he wanted to spend as much time with the children as possible, he didn't want to spend more of our savings and he had no where else to go. However in April and May he has been gone for 3 week business trips and just left again last weekend. When he is home, he now lives in the guest room on the top floor which has 2 twin beds. He acts as if "nothing" has changed - expecting to be integrated into the family routine of laundry and meals. We communicate very little except about schedules and I have no expectations of him, except his agreed child responsibilities. It is rather interesting to see when he comes seeking my attention about things - usually to get an attaboy or a gold-star. He offers me very few opinions and no emotional support. I more/less have to sort out all the problems. When I have big issues/concerns I decide my position first and then ask his opinion knowing he is going to immediately ask my opinion. He won't give me his opinion or thoughts on most things.
It is all rather odd. I am sure the children see what is happening; however my oldest daughter has developed a better relationship with her dad over the last month. I had him take her to sports practice which was 1 hour /each way. It gave them car time to talk. They are now communicating on their own. My son loves having dad at home and really enjoys the extra attention. My middle on is going thru a hormone induced anger and grumpiness phase. I may have something to do with dad, but more to do with her impending change.
I have acted more/less like a single mom for the past 3 years as H was working away from home most of the time. This time together hasn't really changed the routine too much.
I just worry that H is setting the children up for a huge emotional loss/disappointment as he is still talking about moving back to the USA ASAP.
Thank you Beatrice for the added info. I had not yet heard the term "drop ins."
The MLC script similarities are fascinating given the range of strangeness to their childhoods.
Months after BD #2 as H seemed to "see" the kids a bit more and wanted to be present more, he tried to finagle it so that I wouldn't come on family activities. He shows repulsion towards me so they can live with you and still give you the plague treatment.
Now he includes me in these activities but always prefaces it "what do you kids want to do today?" He never asks my opinion on what we should all do. He treats me like a tag-along.
I think about the strangeness of my sitch now and wonder if living through this/witnessing H's behavior will repeat the cycle in my kids' lives.
Hi Dejavu2- Thanks for the info.
Yes, my sitch is awfully similar. Although my H doesn't come to me seeking attention or gold stars.
Lately he has been talking a bit about his about his father. His father went through MLC-lived with 2nd wife through it and was a horrendous cake eater. I was young and certainly saw the dysfunction but because my H recognized it and abhorred it, I never in my wildest dreams thought it would strike him, too.
Twice in the last few months all on his own my S11 has said to my H. that he seems depressed. H of course denied it. He is very foggy still.
I will read up more on your sitch and post you there.
I like to think we avoid the damage to our children by being stable and loving! Children need one sane parent. Two are great, but maybe not essential. I hope so.
Bea - Amen. That philosophy is what has kept my head straight thru all the craziness.
I do think there may be a family pattern, but I am no expert. Is it a family pattern due to genetics or a lack of emotional awareness which is passed on generation to generation.
In my situation: MIL had a very distant relationship with her father. She is very logical and unemotional. I can see how she did not give H any emotional coping mechanisms - as emotional expression was not encouraged. You can't give to someone else what you can't give to yourself. When MIL was about 48yo (same age H is now), she tried to commit suicide. She went on to some counseling and has sought to find more happiness, but she is NOT warm/loving.#
My kids also thought H was depressed for quite a long time. He is showing more effort with them now, so they think he is coming out of it. In some ways he is, in some ways he isn't.
Interesting Deja that your H is the same age as his mom when she was suicidal. I do think that's there can be an unconscious drive to recreate an old unresolved trauma. My ex's mom was a WAS when he was in his late teens - it was very traumatic and the boys in the family cut off all contact with her (2 of the 3 eventually re-established contact but it was many years later - one still doesn't speak to her and she's in her 70's now).
My ex then did pretty much the same thing when our kids were pretty much the same ages. Amazing that they would do the very thing that caused them so much pain when they themselves were a teen, but it's not uncommon to see here.
kml - I also agree with them recreating old patterns . . .. I think we can break these patterns. I do hope so!
My H's father had a brutal MLC. Lots of time in replay. Lots of cake eating.
My H has been talking about his dad more frequently. H still has tremendous anger/disgust toward his dad but I know now that he is going through his own MLC my H understands, deep down, what his father was going through. I imagine it must be scary for him as his father is the last person with whom he would want to identify.
As for my MIL-H's childhood home was rife with dysfunction. Early on he told me he coped by hiding in his closet. Now, when home he stays in downstairs bedroom except at dinner time or to come out for water, etc. When H got old enough he stayed out of his childhood house 24/7-trigger his replay! Same "coping" patterns re-surfacing.
Of course I should have seen the red flags, which begs the question: I assume these individuals with traumatic childhoods and poor coping skills either consciously and/or unconsciously seek out a spouse that ignores the early signs of dysfunction due to her own childhood issues?
HaWho - I am no expert - but in my situation I had a ton of childhood baggage around absent and abusive love. I tolerated his absent love because it felt familiar, like love. I'm still working on resolving these issues as I don't want to fall back in the trap again.
My H is also very P-A which has triggered many of my co-dependency buttons.
For one reason or another these potentially destructive people get into our lives.
I have spent a good deal of time looking at myself, and what contributed to my marrying someone with these issues. Not the same as blaming ourselves - rather looking deep within. Not always easy!.
Deja-We could be twins.
My childhood home was emotionally neglectful--tremendously so. Did not realize how much so until I had my own kids and realized how much love/conversation/validation they need in a given day.
Looking in the rear view mirror I see that I dated stable men from good homes and turned those situations down.
I know now that I married my H to fix my mother.
I also am coping with new found anger I feel toward my MIL. We have always had a friendly, joking relationship up to now. Currently, I just want to call her up and call her out for all the dysfuntion.
When my S was 3 and learning to express emotion, he told me hated me while she was in the room. I tried to talk with him about his feelings. Such big emotions out of such a little body! She told me I should lock him out of the house for the day and she was serious!
Sadly, this is one of the techniques she used on my H. I am realizing he never experienced unconditional love and was punished physically and emotionally for expressing himself.
I don't know if you have read the thread called "My Thoughts on Why They Run", but it may shed a bit of light on the childhood issues and how they play a part in the MLCer's journey back in time:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484259#Post2484259
I need some wisdom here and advice here:
Job-I have read and re-read that info. about why they run. Each time I read it I another "a ha" moment. Thx.
At XMAS, in front of the whole family my H shamed his mother about his childhood. He made fun of her for the various dysfunctional decisions she made in his childhood.
Afterward I recommended that he talk to her again one on one. He said no. I wonder if the child in him is too scared? Maybe he wanted to shame her to turn the tables on her?
Sadly, to me she has intimated that he was "born an angry kid." She has never owned up to her part. Maybe she buried it and she convinced herself of this lie. But she broke her own child.
This is painful to admit but right now, I am so disappointed in my H, his behavior, the havoc this is wreaking on my kids. I know he needs me to step up and be his friend and show unconditional love. I know he is missing that. And I know my face shows my disappointment in him. I am disappointed in myself for not being able to have more compassion for him and his sitch.
Your h confronted his mother in front of the entire family because it was a safe way to do it. Speaking to her about his childhood and how it was one on one will get him nowhere w/her. Like a teenager, he was getting back at her the only way he knew how to do so at that time. It's very sad, but the parents don't or can't see or want to admit what they may have done to their children long ago.
I do understand the disappoint you have in your h's behavior, but you've got to find a way to look at him as a different person right now. The body is the same, but the person living in that body is a very different individual who is very selfish and self-centered right now and will feel entitled at some point. Being a friend doesn't mean that you have to accept all of his "bad" behavior. If he's acting out in a way that isn't good in front of your children, call him on it.
It all takes time. His crisis didn't happen over night, but it did start a very long time ago and whatever flipped the switch started him on the path of going back and doing things one more time. You have to accept him for who he is today and realize that there is nothing you can do to stop the crisis or rush him through it. For now, you are the adult and you have to be there for your kids.
I'm truly sorry that you are having to deal w/this...but you will need to dig deeper for patience and know that whatever happens, you will be okay. You are going to discover that you are stronger than you think and will be able to accomplish things that you didn't think you could.
For now, keep the focus on you and your kids. Leave your h in God's hands.
Job - thank you, thank you, thank you. Great insights I did not see.
I know I need to call him out on bad behavior in front of the kids. Is there a link on how to best go about this? Or advice offered somewhere?
Do I do this right when it happens even if it is in front of the kids? Or do I do it offline? I have no idea how he will react. He may go Mt. Vesuvius angry . . .
Job is very very wise and has helped so many people here.
Please do not call your h out in front of the kids. During MLC we have to suspend ideas of what is right and normal social interaction at this time, and consider it from his point of view (hard I know when they are so crazy).
Try TED at a later point - 'tell me' 'Explain to me please' 'Describe'
It is OK to say calmly that you cannot accept this behaviour towards the children, and to ask him not to. Boundaries, firmly stated and enforced are helpful, but do not become the parent (he is rebelling against his mother right now).
Someone once said that in MLC we steer a fine line between b*tch and doormat. Because they are acting like a teenage jerk when they aren't being a spoilt toddler, it can be very hard to get through to them.
This behaviour exhausts our reserves of compassion. Only you will know how much you can take, but try and rise above it, and try not to be frightened of the rages. I was - some can laugh but they terrified me because they were so out of character.
Hi Beatrice - thank you so much for clarifying. Yes, it makes sense as a strategy, when you explain his perspective, why I would do this offline.
Also, I certainly do not want to open up the curtains and expose my kids to any more dysfunction than they are already seeing. I appreciate the advice but also the encouragement about facing impending rage. You nailed the fine line I feel I walk!
And yes, I too am afraid of the raging I will see. In general my H has not monstered too much, thankfully. Day-to-day his body language shows a lot of anger and disgust toward me.
There have, however, been a few times the anger has been directed at me and said with what can only be described as "shark eyes." In one of these rages I knew he was talking to his mother through me. He stated the exact words to me that he once stated to her during a very important fight they had in his teenage years. The statement was said with venom and these "shark eyes.
I agree w/Bea...do not call your h out in front of the kids. When you do speak to him, give him examples and please try to speak to him in a very calm manner and yes, look him in the eye. Stick to the facts and do not get wishy washy w/him. The TED method does work and you may have to use this method quite often during his crisis.
Boundaries are something that need to be put into place and also, his behavior towards you...if it gets out of hand, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "when you've calmed down, I'll be happy to discuss the matter w/you" and then walk away. Do not engage in heated discussions because no matter what, in his mind, he will always be right.
As for the rage...try not to take it personally and when he's like that, leave him alone. Many times, it's projected on to you because you are the safest person he can explode to. Bea is right about one thing, some of the rages can be frightening because the person you married and lived w/for so long has suddenly become a raving lunatic. It's so out of character, but it is part of the MLC journey for them. We even experience a bit of anger as part of the journey of mourning the death of our old marriages.
As for the shark eyes...yep, they do get those and they most certainly have no "sparkle". They will exhibit shark eyes for quite a while. Eyes are the window to our souls and right now, their souls are dead, hence the shark eyes. One day, the sparkle will return, but it's going to be a while.
So, for now, when he's raging, leave him alone. His journey is all about him and what he needs to heal his inner self.
Keep the focus on you and your kids as much as possible.
Job and Bea- thanks, this gives me much to work on. I felt I was very good at TED when my kids were younger.
Something changed in me though. I need to not just "work on" responding vs. reacting but I need to "change" my ways here. This whole process has made me see the "fixer" I am. I feel the anxiety rise and then I feel this panic to tell my kids exactly how to do something. I am sure I did this with H, too. I hate it about myself. I am practicing on my kids and I see my H noticing. I feel so much better physically/emotionally when I respond vs. react. But it is hard because all this anxiety/panic rises up in me like a tsunami.
Regarding the "shark eyes," a few weeks back we were at a school event and had a picture taken of the 4 of us. I was shocked to see H had, not shark eyes, but 'dead eyes' in the photo. I went back and scanned old photos. Best I can tell, the last photo where I see that glint in his eye is early summer 2014! And all the smiles seems to be pasted on his face.
There is one photo XMAS 2014 where my husband seems completely zoned out/expressionless and is staring at his mother. It is a scary one.
Maybe even scarier is that I never noticed any of this ...
Very strange few days so far.
H texted me on household items that are not absolutely necessary. This is a first. I answered and then cracked a joke. H answered "ha ha."
The next day H texted me necessary household info, I answered and cracked another joke. We used to laugh together so much/share a common sense of humor. This time H cracked a joke back! First time we have bantered in SO long.
And I remember that this is how our friendship changed to the romantic. Funny email conversations.
Next day H texts me at work that he is grabbing dinner for kids can he grab me something? This is a HUGE first. But he quickly sends a follow-up text that it is a busy night and there won't be time to cook. Ah, so he is saying it is "necessary" for him to offer to pick me up dinner vs. "I want to do this for you." Still he is exhibiting common courtesy toward me - another first in a long time. I say no thanks as I want to fix myself something at home.
Then, another text comes through. H cracks a joke. I joke back. H ends conversation by telling me what he is doing with the kids.
I am so used to the stranger that it is odd to see the old H surface.
Weekend was another series of firsts.
On Friday H and I are having a conversation with a third person. H tells person that we have been together 20 yrs., where I grew up, etc. He is making eye contact with me as the 3 of us talk (something new). It feels odd to see this now stranger tell my history. He has rewritten so much of our shared history I was surprised he still knew this info. Was I expecting him to also rewrite my personal history?
We still do things as a family each weekend for the kids. Each weekend H basically talks to the kids, asks them what they want to do and all along ignores me like I am invisible.
Mid-day Saturday H asks "do you guys want to go to dinner?" I let kids answer as, he pretty much only talks to them while we are all together. But then, he says "does somebody named HaWho want to come to dinner too?" He categorically includes me.
He continues to includes me in the daily plans.
In the evening we are all at home. It is Saturday. He has stayed home the last 3 Saturdays, no crazy disappearing acts. What is in store tonight I wonder?
S11 comes up and tells me dad wants to know if we want to do something tonight. First time we do something as a family on a Saturday night in a LOOONNNNG time.
We go out. No conversation between us really. But on ride home he initiates conversation with me that is above the kids' head. Another first.
When we come home, another first. He stays in the living room with us all. I am in the other room for a moment and I hear him apologize to one or both of the kids for something. He is quiet about it. I have only heard him say "I am sorry" once in our whole relationship. These are tough word for him.
Last oddity is S11 says in a very goofy voice: "do you love me daddy?" H comes from a tough neighborhood and a traumatic childhood home. Such words were not spoken. He never engages in this kind of stuff. With tenderness he says "of course I do, what kind of question is that?" NEVER heard this H before. New personality all together emerges for a moment. I like this one. Don't worry, I know not to get attached.
Lightbulbs are going off.
This weekend I did a 180 on my "give to get" need!
H used to open every door for me, even my car door! I took this for granted. Sometimes he still does it and he hates that he does it out of habit; I can tell.
All along I am working on so much simultaneously: detachment, 180's and on advice of DB coach Love Languages. Basic civility is being restored. Slowly, ever so slowly. And with each change I am remembering the cool, self assured cat I once was, decades ago. What happened to that girl?!?
On Sat. H opened my car door for me and not accidentally, nor did he regret it afterwards. Seemed to be out of heavy fog this weekend. I was so shocked I did not say thank you. There was a time I would analyze my mistake. But I let it go! All I did was open his door before he came around the other way. Felt freeing!
Next time we came to the car, he did not open my door. And here's a biggie: I didn't read anything into it! I just opened his door once again before he came around. And most importantly I didn't treat him any differently for not opening my door. I didn't analzye, show disappointment, no change in body languuate, etc. I didn't care! And I know he read the difference. Changing the dance...
Next time it was time to go in the car, he opened my door me and this time I did say thank you and I opened his side!
And I hit a MAJOR detachment milestone this weekend, too.
H seems to be slowing down on his weekend running around. Has not gone out on a Fri./Sat. in several weekends. Last weekend be went out on Sunday night. He said where he was going but who knows. It was hard for me because of course I pictured OW. But I said bye and was cheerful-no pressure. He looked annoyed at my reaction.
This weekend H hung out with us Fri. and Sat. On Sunday we all went to the beach and ate outside. Almost no conversation between us but I felt no tension internally either. Beautiful night and I found the joy in a peaceful weekend.
On Sunday at 8:15PM he gets dressed in decent clothes to walk the dog. He says goodnight and says he doesn't know when he'll be home. Here we go...
As he is leaving I feel the panic and think of OW. Does she exist? But then, I think, I can leave anytime I want!! I am not a prisoner here. I say bye and good night and like I mean it because I do. No passive aggressive body language. I hear Job's advice: the guy I knew is gone, let him go. I am right where I want to be: providing my kids a stable, loving home.
I turn on music and per kids' request we start a game of Monopoly. And I stop thinking of him. Because I don't want this guy anyway. And I don't think of him or OW. I am happy. And then...
Within 15 minutes he is home and he stays home. And I know he sees that I am not sitting around pining for him.
Felt liberating to change not just the dance steps, but the music, too.
Hi HaWho,
IMO detachment is one of the most difficult aspects of DB to do properly and takes considerable time to get there. At first you force it......in time you get to the point you think you need to be...then they will do something that makes you question whether you are detached at all...and you realise you are not quite there yet
So good on you for putting the negative thoughts re OW to one side. You should take confidence in this going forwards.
Thank you Lionhrt.
This time around what helped me to detach was to realize I don't want this guy. I don't know what the end product will be/if I will even want that. So I realize there is no point in trying to hold on to him. I am holding on for the sake of holding on.
I am also starting to realize that although I have work to do on myself, if this R is viable at some point in the future, I need things to change on his end, too. Who knows if he is even willing to see that and make any concessions on his end.
Going in to this he could not admit even the smallest fault. Meanwhile I am a pleaser. From up here in my detachment perch I see the cycle.
HaWho, thanks you very much for writing this post, as I'm finding hard to detach but seeing what you are doing is a great inspiration to me.
Can anyone answer this question:
Since Friday H has been "playing house." He has been around (no going out, has been saying where he is going/when he will be back, started texting about nonessential stuff and even engaged in joking banter via text). This is the longest duration thus far that he has joined the living
Is this because he has processed some stage/experience from childhood so he is coming up for air before he goes back in the tunnel to tackle something else? Just curious here.
I wouldn't let my guard down. He's probably having a moment of clarity. Some of them do this and length of time for clarity can vary. Maybe the depression has lifted just a wee bit to allow him to act normal, but who knows.
I would continue to observe and if he is friendly towards you, then do the same w/him, but keep those expectations at zero if you can.
Thank you Job. I will hang back. I have LOTS of practice.
I know they all go through it differently. He has been whistling and singing like his old self. Yesterday he texted me to tell me he was going to fix "x" in the house and he did it. Seemed to be an adult not a kid trying to please his mother. More like a true adult spouse. First time he has done a thing on the house in a year. Other weird thing is he slept with his door open last night. Has not done this since BD.
Know I should not be watching-but I am through laced fingers. Can't help it when he lives with me.
This all comes on the heels of me reaching a detachment plateau. Weekend of 4th I woke up and remembered last relationship I had before H. I felt like boyfriend was distancing and we were drifting. I broke it off with him and as I did, although it hurt, I remember feeling this cementing in me. It was this voice that said: "you can do this. You'll be better off w/o this sitch." And I was. Months later boyfriend tried to come back and I was done. Anyway, that same cementing feeling hit me with H on 4th.
Let's see how long it lasts ...
One more question: are there accounts of some of them needing to be "led" more than others do?
At some point I read that there are moments they are so lost/childlike that you can sort of hypnotize them. Oftentimes I have noticed my H does follow along more than rebel.
If I say out loud the kids need to do chores more, over the next few days he will say the exact same. Sometimes he repeats what I say verbatim. When I said I needed to fix my son's bike son, next day H fixed something in house.
At one point H became friends with a guy who had shady character (in relationships and in financial dealings). In height of replay H decided to go away with his guy and I very kindly told him to have fun but that I thought he was cut from a different cloth than this guy. He looked hypnotized by this. Exact thing I would say to my 12 year old. He stopped hanging around with him after that weekend.
Any thoughts/experiences with this? Seems like he is sometimes looking for how he is supposed to act.
Ok-sorry for the frequent posts but H just texted me to see if I want us to go away with kids this weekend for my birthday???
Said "sure" but keeping expectations at a solid 0. H said he wanted to go away for 4th and then backpeddled out of it.
Funny thing is: I was so nervous about going away for the 4th. The logistics scared me. How would we be in such close quarters? The silence of the car ride.
This time I really don't care if he backs out of it. And I am not nervous about the logistics. I am so used to his weird fidgety ways now. And I am so comfortable in the silences.
Let's see if he panics...
Hi,
Your H will act very much like a young teenager. IMO he is following your lead with the kids a bit like an older sibling would. You are now taking on the role of a parent type figure for him. He may look to you for guidance and probably explains how he reacted with the guy he was friendly with. The main thing is to maintain a steady course and keep the rebellious teenager at bay.
If you try and lead a teenager they may rebel or make it clear they don't need your help. There may be a time for this but it will probably be further down the road.
Enjoy the nice things but as job says keep your guard up and zero expectations. Stick to your path and hold a steady course.
If he follows through with the holiday plans I would go and enjoy yourself regardless. You can have plenty of conversation and fun with the kids if H wants to remain silent.
Enjoy
forgot to add when I say keep the rebellious teenager at bay I didn't mean act like a doormat. Set a good example and don't get drawn into his antics.
When in MLC, they go back the time that they were emotionally stunted and grow up from there. Therefore, if your h is acting like a young teenager, it's not a surprise. You become the authority figure, which means "mom" or someone who oversaw his upbringing. He will eventually not see you as a wife, but a mom and/or a friend. The term "friend" that they talk about is not what we consider as a friend.
Since you have children, your h may become jealous of the attention that you shower your children with. This is very normal. Also, your h may become great pals w/one child and not the other. Why one child? It will be the child that doesn't question and/or challenge him on his behavior. This is normal behavior.
If he is following your lead, then he is possibly thinking of himself as 12/13 or even younger and/or older, but is looking to you as mom and doing things w/mom. BTW, if he's telling you things that he's doing, he's checking in w/mom. If he's telling you of things that he's done around the house, he's looking to mom to recognize his good work and wants affirmation for what he's done. Be sure to acknowledge his accomplishments. It is important to him.
If you do go away, enjoy yourself, but don't expect him to be the man you once knew. As you travel this path, you are going to catch glimpses of many personalities. They wear invisible masks to see which one suits them.
Stay the course. Keep the focus on you and your children. Repeat often: I didn't break him, therefore I can't fix him". Your h is the only one that fix himself.
Lionhrt and Job-all great info. Thanks! Re-reading it all.
Job-what do you mean that their term of "friend" is not what we mean? Please elaborate.
Also, looking back on it, I think there have been many, many instances where my H was jealous of attention I gave to my kids. Oftentimes, rather than join forces and co-parent (which would have stengthened our marital bond) H seemed to want to be a third kid. On my end I appeased but resentfully so. Made a BIG mistake there. As resentment kept building on my end. Often I felt more like his mother or live in nanny vs. an equal.
What should I do when he becomes jealous of attention to children? How do I respond given where he is mentally?
I do think I focused more attention on the kids once they were a bit older and my resentment was at all time high. So I know I need to re-balance the scales on my end, too. But how, with a pre-teen?
Your h may not become jealous of all of the attention that the children get. Some do, some don't and I wouldn't worry about it right now...unless showing signs of resentment and/or jealousy.
How would you respond if your children were jealous of one another? You would have to focus on rebalancing the scales.
Don't borrow trouble if you aren't having any right now. The time to be concerned about this, i.e., such as I have mentioned when they begin to occur.
Here is a brief description of what "friends" may look like to rational people:
"Signs of a Good Friend
Friends will come and go in your life, but more important than how long a friendship lasts, is that a good friend will love you for who you are. The way you can tell the sign of a good friend is by looking at the actions they take –big and small – that show they care.
Some common signs of a good friend include:
someone who will support you no matter what
someone you can trust and who won’t judge you
someone who won’t put you down or deliberately hurt your feelings
someone who is kind and has respect for you
someone who will love you because they choose to, not because they feel like they should
someone whose company you enjoy
showing loyalty
being trustworthy and willing to tell you the truth, even when it’s hard
someone who can laugh when you do
someone who is willing to stick around when things get tough
someone who makes you smile
someone who is there to listen
someone who will cry when you cry.
My interpretation of the "Signs of a Good Friend According to the MLCer:
someone who is willing to be a f@ck buddy, i.e., friends w/benefits w/o giving anything in return
someone you contact only when you want something
someone you don't respect, but tolerate because you want something from them
someone who is a friend today, but not tomorrow
someone you have no ties to whatsoever but will contact you when they want something
someone who isn't going to challenge and/or question the MLCer on their irrational behavior
someone who wants to have a good time, party and spend money like water and doesn't care about the consequences of their actions
someone who will accept the MLCer as they he/she is today, no questions asked
someone who listens to the MLCer and encourages them in their behavior, not only the party and spending behavior, but to take their spouses to the cleaners
someone who will help the MLCer create ways to annoy the spouse and help the MLCer any way that they can to annoy the spouse (this does happen in some cases)
In other words, when a MLCer says let's be friends, the friendship is not a deeper reliable, trustworthy friendship. It's a very shallow friendship whereby the MLCer only wants to be friends w/you when it suits their needs and when they need those needs met. Being friends w/a MLCer is a one way relationship....their way.
I'm sure others can come up w/more examples...but this is my list of what shallow friendship is all about.
Ok-thank you Job. Solid advice.
There is clearly some strange cycling occurring. Two days ago H was flatlined when it came to texting me. Yesterday I received one unnecessary text, then we joked a bit.
Today he has initiated 4 conversations.
When it rains it pours.
Thank you Job for the breakdown on an MLCers view of friends. Scary list.
Oi. Hope he doesn't try to mold me into that category of "friend."
Forgot to mention one important detail: on Saturday H. said "we are going to have to talk about this sitch soon." I calmly said "sure, let me know when."
Then this sqeaky clean person came out. I do feel like he is buttering me up for something. Maybe he will ask for apt. again? Announce existence of OW? I do feel like he is laying down good feelings between us before this conversation takes place.
I assume no matter what he tells me to STFU, respond not react and validate anywhere I can?
Also, H once told me that in his teen years his mother worked so many hours to support them (his father was a deadbeat) that she was never home. He said he had his run of the place and he loved it. I remember saying "wasn't that lonely?" He insisted no. But he has subsequently commented that our home became lonely and he wanted an apartment. Wondering if he's looking to go back and face that time and if that's why apartment is so important?
FYI-forgot to point out that at various times in our R H actually referred to his childhood home during these years as "having his own apartment" and how "cool" it all was.
Had a great night yesterday. We ate outside-beautiful night. H stayed at table longer than usual. He is a lot less fidgety/nervous. Had a few opportunities to validate.
After dinner I made shakes with my son, took a long walk by myself and then hung out with son.
H took dog out for walk by himself and returned with an item for himself and one for us? He made a point of saying he bought it for us. H was never the type to pick up needed items unless asked. I said thank you and told him I appreciated it as Job has indicated that this is important to him. Then he made himself a smoothie and one for all of us. He even carried them over to us. Showed appreciation there too. This also is a new development as he always used to just make whatever he needed.
Last few days he has come into the room making direct eye contact with me. This am he came out in AM to say goodbye to me before I left for work. This is a first. Usually, I just go past his door (which is always shut) and like to any house guest I say "bye, have a good day."
Had a great night yesterday. We ate outside-beautiful night. H stayed at table longer than usual. He is a lot less fidgety/nervous. Had a few opportunities to validate.
After dinner I made shakes with my son, took a long walk by myself and then hung out with son.
H took dog out for walk by himself and returned with an item for himself and one for us? He made a point of saying he bought it for us. H was never the type to pick up needed items unless asked. I said thank you and told him I appreciated it as Job has indicated that this is important to him. Then he made himself a smoothie and one for all of us. He even carried them over to us. Showed appreciation there too. This also is a new development as he always used to just make whatever he needed.
Last few days he has come into the room making direct eye contact with me. This am he came out in AM to say goodbye to me before I left for work. This is a first. Usually, I just go past his door (which is always shut) and like to any house guest I say "bye, have a good day."
H approached me yesterday in house and we had first "normal" conversation since April. Full eye contact (a first), relaxed body, etc.
I was taken off guard so I was nervous at first. But I stopped what I was doing, looked at him, listened, etc.
HaWho
I have only read this posts, so could have missed it in other posts, but where are your GAL's, what are some things you are doing for yourself. My GALS helped me so very much, I actually started to love myself again, which really helped me a lot. It feels great to get out and have fun with my friends. At the start of my BD I was a MESS inside, I took time and started to work on me, on loving myself more then I loved everyone around me, It made it easier to deal with the MLC issues, I faked it until I made it and now I'm in such a better place.
It all started with my GAL's so I'm ask where are your GALS?
Hi 2BHappy,
Thanks for the checkin!
Well, I don't think the GAL was such an issue for me pre-BD. You haven't read older posts but I just came out of a depression in the fall (dealing w/childhood issues when my mom died and a close family member's child was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder). I was dealing with 2 traumas at once.
Through it I distanced from H. I do remember him reaching out to me but I just couldn't come out of it. It is hard to explain but he made multiple attempts to reach me without ever directly saying I was depressed. In hindsight he did stand by me through it all with kindness and patience. So I do think he, too, will remember how I treat him through the worst of his depression. I withdrew first and I am sure I pushed him to do the same. If he came home I went off to be by myself. I was by myself A LOT. I didn't even say "hello" or "goodbye." Sound familiar?!?
Through it all I did have a life though. I played a lot of tennis (got very fit and socialized there) worked part-time, walked a lot. I did lose touch with friends as I withdrew from everyone but my sisters.
So my sitch is somewhat tough as H wants time and space but his top complaint has been he was bottom tier priority. As he was.
My 180 is a little different I think. I have to be present more, re-engage with kids and I have had to come back to life in my home!
So several updates but I also need some advice!
Through all this reading I am learning so much about my behavioral patterns. It's amazing to see the results of practicing my changes, in myself/how I feel and in the situations around me. Feels so much saner!
Meanwhile H continues to stick his head out further. On Sun. he mentioned that he now hates the room he is sleeping in (downstairs bedroom). I was quiet/said nothing/just listened.
I wanted to tell him he could move back into the bedroom but I am hesitant to stick my neck out and invite him back. Maybe he feels the same? Any advice here if he mentions it again? I don't want to initiate any R talk but want to move things along where it makes sense. In the end he said maybe he would just move his desk to another part of the house to give himself a break from the room. I listened here too. Maybe he was waiting for an invitation back?
Advice needed is: how do I encourage w/out pressuring or scaring him away. I would rather take it slow and do it right then rush and botch everything up.
He consistently initiates doing more with us as a family.
On Sun. he suggested kids go to friends' houses and we do something together w/o kids. We went out for the day together. This was one of his chief complaints pre BD-that we weren't putting our R first. And he was right. So when he suggested it I validated and said: great idea! And arranged for kids to go elsewhere.
It felt like a date but odd because we've been there, done that. He carried some of my stuff to the beach like he used to do. We went to lunch afterwards. It was raining so he left me inside while he picked up the car. He said he should take me out to lunch soon. I said that would be nice. This is a 180 as at BD 2 he venomously told me (with shark eyes) that he was done with the whole going to lunch together bit.
We are going away for my birthday/summer vacation. H has said several times he hopes I have a nice time. Seems to want to please me. I know: zero expectations and act "as if." But, can't help wondering: is he seeing me as wife, gf or mother?
He showed pictures of upcoming trip accommodations to me and kids. Categorically said: this is where your mom and I will sleep - one bed in separate room from kids.
Don't you think your h needs to earn your trust and be transparent with his email and cell phone accounts? He has to do the necessary work on himself and if you are willing to give him the milk, then why purchase the cow?
You need to take things slowly because if you are willing to allow him back in the bedroom this quickly and sweep everything under the rug, then what has he learned? The answer is: he can cake eat and you are more than willing to open the door and let him in no matter what he's doing or done to you and your family. He needs to earn your trust and respect and start out as friends and go from there.
Pretending that this situation has never happened and working through the issues that got your marriage to where it is, have to be worked through, i.e., acknowledged and discussed and worked through by both parties. Sweeping it under the rug will only cause the mess to come out again at a later time.
I can't read his mind...but who knows...he may be thinking of a nice booty call because no one else is available. Also, before having sex w/this man, he would need to have himself checked out for stds. Why? Because you don't know who he has been with and before you say he wouldn't do it...he most likely did.
My sense is he is trying to re-build. The question is, is he going to try to talk about the R or is he is going to try to move forward w/o doing so. He has indicated that soon we need to talk about the R. But those are words.
As for transparency, if he does not bring up R and is avoiding it, when do I bring it up?
Also, what if he deletes texts as they come in and has a whole different email account I don't even know about?
Job - as always, thank you for your time and advice. I have more questions:
I have no concrete proof of EA/PA. I know where he was on certain dates and I have proof he was x, y, z place. I can ask him where he was on those dates and see if he lies. But that doesn't mean he was with OW. Transparency may only show if something is going on now as I am sure he has long deleted anything suspicious if A is over.
H is clearly romancing me. After BD #1 he wanted to start building a friendship and I thought we should go full into relationship. I won, short term. Then BD#2. Job, as you say, neither of us did the work we needed to. We tried to sweep things under the rug. I think we have both learned that did not work.
SO I know I need to take it super slow. If I were not up against this room to ourselves, then the friendship train would be moving along. Maybe he is not going to make a move at all when we are alone. I hope not w/o R talk.
Maybe he is going to be forth coming about OW. But even here, he can be lying about the duration, the seriousness, the number of women, etc. But at least infidelity will be exposed. If there was an EA/PA this is best case scenario.
If he starts the R talk with just past vents, then I think I know what to do. I know to STFU, listen, validate.
But if in the conversation, he indicates he wants to work on M/go forward, then I know to STFU, listen but I also know I need to discuss what landed us here, his behavior last few months and also transparency. How much can I talk once he brings up working on R? Can I calmly say everything on my mind? Can I ask him about suspicious behavior out right? Will any of it matter as he could lie about everything?
The problem will be if he tries something w/o talking about R. I know I shouldn't be initiating talk of R. But, before anything romantic starts I can say "H before we go here, we need to talk about R/M. Do you want to do this now or at another time?" Then again, my question is: can I be very open with my thoughts at this time?
Help?
As you have mentioned, you've had two BDs and still nothing has been resolved. From your postings, it sounds to me like your h doesn't truly know what he wants and he continues to return to the relationship and once he's been involved w/you for a while, he drops another bomb and wants to go off and do his own thing again. It's almost like he wants to keep you on the hook as Plan B just in case Plan A doesn't work out. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't want to be Plan B and I certainly wouldn't want to have a third bomb drop after he's been back into the relationship, i.e., the revolving door relationship will only cause more emotional upheaval for you and your family.
If he is actually willing to work on the relationship, then he has to be willing to be transparent w/you now. He needs to be willing to show you text messages, emails, phone calls and be willing to share things w/you. I'm not talking about the past...but the present and the future.
At some point, a conversation will need to take place discussing where the relationship is headed and what is needed to make it work. It could be that counseling needs to take place, i.e., together or separate, but the revolving door relationship is not acceptable.
I'm going to leave you w/this...wouldn't it be better to ask him now what his thoughts are on the relationship than to wait until you are on vacation and in bed and he is making moves on you? This man has done absolutely nothing to earn your trust and respect. So, why be so willing to open your arms and take him back so easily? Yes, I know you love him and want him back, but don't be so quick to open your heart up again. Take things slowly and if he truly wants back into the relationship 100%, he'll do the work, work with you and communications will have to open and honest in order for both of you to heal and move forward from there. If he's not willing to do the work, he will drop another bomb and will be back to square one and you'll be here talking about BD #3.
Keep in mind...you and only you can determine when you've had enough of the revolving door relationship that is going on in your situation.
Thank you Job.
Yes, that all makes sense.
I guess it's time to take a temperature read and see what his actions show.
Keep it simple and on target. Do not bring up the possibility of the ow. You want to know where his head is right now w/respect to your relationship. If this is another "let's try again to see if it works this time", then you'll know it's not an authentic reconcilation, but one that suits his needs a this time.
He needs to do the hard and difficult work to win you back. If you allow him to return w/o doing the work, he'll be at it again because he knows that you'll take him back no matter what he does and he'll never face the consequences of his actions and why would he? Again, he's getting the milk for free...why purchase the cow?
Stay calm, keep your voice tone even and look him in the eye. Stay on target of what you want to talk about and do not allow him to goad you into an emotional heated argument.
He owes you respect, loyalty and yes, honesty. Has he been doing those three things lately?
Thank you Job. I will keep it calm and on target.
I have another quick tactical question.
Twice today H mentioned that he is miserable in the downstairs room. (Third time this week he said this.). He said there are prison cells that are nicer than the room! (It took A LOT for me not to remind him that he moved out all on his own--self inflicted sentence.) Now he is throwing down the victim card masterfully.
Then later today he mentioned that the reason he has to get out of the house is because he hates that room! Again- his choice to live in a closet sized room!
I stayed completely silent. Any advice on what to say if he hammers the point again? I guess I could say "I am sorry you aren't happy there anymore." Thoughts?
You could aways try TED -'tell me what you want to do about it' 'Explain what would be a good solution'. 'Describe how you would like it to change/ what needs to change'.
This approach (clearly you do not have to use those exact words), invites the person to think about a solution. A simple 'What do you want to do about it' is less effective. Works with children too!
Problem with MLCer is that like children they tend to do what I call magical thinking, and expect the ideal solution to arrive gift wrapped, except that often they ydo not evenknow wha t they want, so anything suggested is rejected. We work harder and herder to please and they have 'won' that little interchange . . .
Ok - talked to H about R. Bea, my MLCer knows exactly what he wants. He wants to first thing he proposed.
Gist: he thinks I am a fabulous, smart woman, best he has ever met. But he feels nothing romantically. Later he also said he feels he just does the same things over and over again & is bored by life; but he has not put together that he is depressed.
He says after BD he needed to "put himself back together." Find who he was. He thinks he has done that again.
He now remembers he did love me once. But last 10 years were (still) horrible. We should never have been more than friends. He said I must have felt the same way as I never came downstairs at night after BD. I reminded him that he said he was "done" and we agreed I would give him time and space. He said "oh yeah."
We touched on my depression. I remembered that he said I needed help, that he needed me, that we needed to fix the M. I explained that I was in a fog and couldn't get out of it. I told him that he had little to do with it. I had issues to clear and I have done that. He said he can see that I am back. He said he missed talking to me. I know he is seeing changes. Even our conversation tonight was different.
His solution: the ever popular MLC option - he gets an apartment! (Job-I did warn you that this apartment is important to him. Something to do with his childhood.) He thinks we are patterning a bad marriage by him being downstairs. He will stay at apartment a few days of the week (a funny hunch tells me on the weekends?) and then (here's where I get REALLY lucky) he will come stay with us a few days! I assume I get to cook and clean up after him. He knows the kids will love this plan, too. He will co-parent.
Meanwhile I can't bring any men to the house. (His mother brought horrific men into his childhood home.) But I should date. According to him I should do this while I am still "young and beautiful." And although he'll be a touch jealous he will babysit for me. I am so lucky!
He asked my thoughts and I said Rs are work. Everyone who has the white picket fence works at it. (He said we just couldn't have the white picket fence.) He asked what i thought of his plan. I said I need to think about it.
He did admit that he can be difficult. That he has always needed a lot of space. That he always had a touch time sharing anything and had to learn that. First time he has admitted such things.
Meanwhile we are going on vacation all together. I am going to be the best me and show him all that he will miss by giving me up.
He is not going to have an apartment and come here a few days. He has always wanted to CAKE EAT.
Did my depression cost me my M? What do I do now? Help!
It is total MLC script - can you explain why, if he wants an apartment he doesn't have one?
What is stopping him in his eyes? Just asking.
I have to agree w/Bea's question...what's stopping him from moving out and getting his own place and living there permanently? Is it because he's afraid to be on his own, doesn't want to spend the money, likes being at home w/you doing things for him? What's stopping him? Do you have any idea?
He can't have his cake and eat it too. Once he's moved, he stays there and doesn't come home like a college student. Sounds to me that he's acting out like a young adult and wants to return home to mom for comfort and being taken care of for a few days and then off again. He actually needs to learn what it's like to live on his own and do for himself.
Also, you asked if your depression cost you your marriage. I am going to say NO! Even if your h were married to someone else, the crisis would have taken place. Keep reminding yourself it's the childhood issues that are raising their ugly head. Your h would have had a crisis even if he were a monk, priest, single, etc. He didn't develop good coping skills many, many years ago.
I do hope that things settle down for you so that you can enjoy your vacation. Hopefully he will figure things out and if he does move out for a while...it won't be the end of the world. He just might come to realize what he had at home and will do the hard work to come back to you a whole man...but that could be a while since he does sound like he needs to grow up.
Hi Bea and Job-thanks for the support and advice. I need to be reminded I did not cause this.
Quick questions and then I will answer your questions. Do I wait for him to ask about R/apartment before I give my answer on apartment? We left it that I would think about it and get back to him (even though I knew my answer was the same as the first time he asked: NO THANKS-GROSS!)
Should I ask why he needs me to give him permission to get an apartment? What do I do? I am willing to give him more time in the house as things are moving more positive between us in our daily interactions and I think he needs more time. He told me he has a nostalgic romance for me and does not want to lose me and doesn't think he will-that we will be friends. (Cue MLC script music.) On vacation we will go to this romantic town we went to when we first dated. He says we have to see it again. I think he is trying to feel something/see if he can feel anything. But I think he is still empty inside.
He said if I say no to this whole arrangement, then he will stay 'til the kids go to college. This time he did use the word "separation" when mentioning apartment.
To answer your questions, both times he has asked for apt. he has asked for my permission to do so. Why doesn't he just go do it? I don't know for sure. I suppose I could ask. And I feel comfortable doing so. Should I ask? We had a really open calm talk. He's only monstered a few times thoughout his MLC. I think he wants to have the best of everything. I think it's that simple. He said to me several times that he really hoped I would let him come back and sleep here a few nights. I asked "what's in it for me in this arrangement?" He said "it is hard to co-parent." He's trying to tell me this is a help to me! (So much easier to have my MLC H coming and going as he pleases/ "helping me"- which entails him hiding in his room and then running out the door to "decompress." I think he wants to keep one foot here to feel good about himself, keep an eye on me, etc. He did say we could do this arrangement until the man I am seeing says "no more" to it.
I will say this. I have grown tremendously. I did not cry/was not emotional. I have detached from this craziness in ways I could not imagine possible. If he walks out the door in 2 minutes, I know deep down, it is his loss and that I will be just fine. I am not scared over it anymore.
It's crazy because we are getting along great/starting to re-build the friendship and he must be seeing that. And at times he certainly romances me. Last night he made a drink and spoon fed it to me. He is so lost . . .