Starting a new thread now...
Old threads:
Can't Believe I'm Here -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2524363&page=1MLCer and EA w/ OW -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534280&page=1Masterpiece -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2541483&page=1As we continue to move forward from here, I want to quote some lines from a song currently in my playlist:
"...I still fall on my face sometimes
And I can't color inside the lines
'Cause I'm perfectly incomplete
I'm still working on my masterpiece
And I, I wanna hang with the greats
Got a way to go, but it's worth the wait
No, you haven't seen the best of me
I'm still working on my masterpiece..."
-- "Masterpiece" by Jessie J
Jer,
Your W is all over the map. You cannot rationalize with the irrational because it is ...er...not rational!
I'd suggest that you brush up a bit on the emotional aikido that I recently updated in the
Validation: Cheat Sheet.
Try not to fight W against her views. Just nod your head and be cool. There's no point in arguing against them when she's in her monster phase.
Jer,
Your W is all over the map. You cannot rationalize with the irrational because it is ...er...not rational!
I'd suggest that you brush up a bit on the emotional aikido that I recently updated in the
Validation: Cheat Sheet.
Thanks -- and yes, totally irrational right now... Can't go into details about some info I got this afternoon, but another family member is now completely convinced that W is extremely mentally unstable right at the moment and may be on the verge of a nervous breakdown TODAY. W isn't home right now, so God only knows who/what is coming home tonight... I'm going to try to stay as far under the radar as possible...
Try not to fight W against her views. Just nod your head and be cool. There's no point in arguing against them when she's in her monster phase.
So true.
Actually did try to sprinkle in some Validation phrases throughout the email I sent earlier... Not sure if it helped or not -- she has not replied back to that email yet, but I am sure she's read it... Her reply should be LOTS of fun to read... not...
Jer
Along with the irrational angle. I found that even attempting to converse via text/email was not beneficial. Seems they will run with anything, get all fired up and spew, go back and read it again a month later and spew more. For schedules and such its perfect but anything that has emotion in it I learned to avoid and set a boundary in this area. If W wanted to discuss something that was not clear cut and emotionless I refused to have the conversation via that medium ... in person only. This helped as IF I did slip up and say something I could make sure she understood what I meant right there, or in my case she basically would forget 80% of what was said anyways ... turned out to be safer to have those talks in person for me.
Jer truth is she isn't going to be happy with you.
You hit her with a financial reality and that is the breadwinner is almost always going to have to cough up childcare.
She can be as sweet as peaches as long as things go her way, and its no skin off her nose to be pleasant when things ARE going her way.
But right now, now that lawyers are going to be involved, now that she is starting to see that this is not going to be as easy, clean or financially light as she hoped?
You will see the monster as you call her.
And you know what?
No LBS here is the white knight that comes in and slays the MLC monster...we are the white knight in the face of that monster though. We have to protect ourselves, we defend our lives and livelihoods. We do not sacrifice ourselves on the MLC altar, hoping they notice and change their ways. Martyrdom does not work here.
There is an old saying, Use your anger as your shield NOT your sword. I know its old cause I am old.
Use it to remain firm and fair in this. Not vindictive. Use it to power you along and not fall for sweet words and false niceties.
In the face of her storm, be the lighthouse.
In the face of her monster be the knight.
Be calm, be strong, and show it and one day, hopefully, maybe she will recall and thank you for how YOU acted in the face of her crazy.
Jer,
One other thing to keep in mind is that MLCers cannot handle tons of information. When you communicate with W via email, keep them short, concise, and to the point.
There's a strong correlation between MLC and Swiss Cheese brain. They tend to forget information and details easily even if you repeat them the next day.
I think her inconsistent sleeping patterns is affecting her thought process in a big way. It applies to every human being. When one throws MLC in the mix, it is a potent mixture that is in W's bunsen tube. This is why I advise you not to argue or fight against W's interrupted thought process.
She's a broken C-3PO whose innards are turned inside out and sticking out all over the place.
Luke Skywalker can't fix W's broken down C-3PO fast enough.
Okay -- I want to reply to everyone's posts so far... But before I do... WOW -- there is a whole new version of Monster at home this evening... this one seems to be breathing fire...
I was ready for her to demand that I leave the master bedroom tonight, but for some reason that didn't happen... I would have fought her on it, but I still think that fight is coming at some point. I know she's pissed about having to sleep on the couch, but this was all her choice -- I never kicked her out of the bedroom.
There is a lot contributing to the new monster that is surfacing... one part has to do with what happened between her and another family member today, one part has to do with the emails that went back and forth between us, and another has to do with the co-parenting agreement and point about child support... I have never seen my W acting or looking like this around me.
Don't worry -- I don't think I'm in physical danger -- but W is definitely spinning and in a VERY fowl mood.
So Cali -- yeah, emails can be problematic, but in the past they've actually worked fairly well for us because we both have time to read, think/process, and give thoughtful replies...
But -- they can be problematic at times like this... As Wonka pointed out -- they can contain too much info for the MLCer...
And I think that might be part of the problem in this case... BUT -- she started it with a long email yesterday... I just replied to each of her points... and then she replied to my points and then I replied to her points... And now she's walking around the house not looking me in the eye, barely speaking to me, and slamming doors every chance she gets -- especially the master bedroom door...
Jack -- oh boy... Yeah -- I think she's ticked off about the child support thing. I don't know if she looked into that any further after replying to me about it, but I haven't said anything else to her... Still waiting for a reply back from my lawyer about it. But, again, she's main breadwinner AND this was all her decision... And, if she is telling the truth and what she is currently saying is NOT a bunch of MLC spew/script, then what she told me today about realizing she didn't really love me when she was pregnant with our first (8 years ago!) means that she and I had three kids together with her knowing/thinking she didn't really love me and wouldn't spend the rest of her life with me... What does she expect? That I'm just going to magically have the money I need to match her in terms of what she can provide for the kids? Oh -- and in the discussions so far she's expressed a desire for us to split all of the kid expenses 50/50... So without CS my % of expenses on the kids will be a much larger % of my take-home pay than hers will ever be...
I know this is MLC and what she said to me today in the emails is NOT TRUE... But if it is... If I've read all of this completely wrong and she isn't an MLCer, then I've lived nearly 10 years with someone who has lied to me continuously, is not who I thought she was, and who has been content up until now to live a complete lie to all of our family and friends... Wow, wow, wow...
Okay -- I want to reply to everyone's posts so far... But before I do... WOW -- there is a whole new version of Monster at home this evening... this one seems to be breathing fire...
I was ready for her to demand that I leave the master bedroom tonight, but for some reason that didn't happen... I would have fought her on it, but I still think that fight is coming at some point. I know she's pissed about having to sleep on the couch, but this was all her choice -- I never kicked her out of the bedroom.
There is a lot contributing to the new monster that is surfacing... one part has to do with what happened between her and another family member today, one part has to do with the emails that went back and forth between us, and another has to do with the co-parenting agreement and point about child support... I have never seen my W acting or looking like this around me.
Don't worry -- I don't think I'm in physical danger -- but W is definitely spinning and in a VERY fowl mood.
Thing is, although you MAY be correct about the "why" of her mood, truth is, you don't, or may never know why she is in a foul mood.
Most of what I have seen, there isn't one particular thing that causes it. Mostly, it's about the loss of control in their lives. They see their new life, as being in control of everything, mostly because MLCers have the false image of not having any control over their lives to this point.
They feel as though nothing has ever been in their control, so by the bomb, and actions since the bomb, they feel as though they are FINALLY taking control over their life.
And when the LBS starts getting stronger, and making the better decisions, they feel their whole world getting turned upside down. And dammit, that isn't the way it was SUPPOSED to be ....
Most MLCers use the one freakin tool, that has worked the best for them......anger
She wasn't expecting you to be this strong...
She wasn't expecting you to own your responsibilities as well as you are now owning them.
This ( the bomb), was supposed to make HER stronger....not you
MLC is such an emotional uproar, that she needs you to deal with things emotionally, instead of rationally, and anger helps her to engage that. Or at least it USED to do that.
You turned the tides, and she is trying her old friend anger once again.
Stay YOUR course through this.
Like 3Beans says, use your anger as a shield, not a sword.
You will get the point where you will see this coming at you, and maybe even giggle inside when it happens. Know what it is, and deal with it.
I know this is MLC and what she said to me today in the emails is NOT TRUE... But if it is... If I've read all of this completely wrong and she isn't an MLCer, then I've lived nearly 10 years with someone who has lied to me continuously, is not who I thought she was, and who has been content up until now to live a complete lie to all of our family and friends... Wow, wow, wow...
Lie to you
Lie to them
Lie to herself ???
To her, this is real, and those things are real...
Are they correct ? Probably not.
But ya know...
As long as it is her perception, it isn't a lie....
Your goal is to rise above that...
Sooo... W just came downstairs before leaving for work... walked into the office and stood behind me... I turned around and it was apparent that she wanted to talk... I had my walls up ready for battle... Her walls were up too -- at first...
We ended up having a long, tear-filled conversation about everything -- our past, our current situation, our feelings, our anger, how much we are both hurting, and so much more... Lots of crying... Some holding of hands and hugging (at times each of us taking the initiative)... and ending with a really long and tight hug...
Still heading towards separation, but it's the first time in months that I felt like I was having a conversation with my W and not an MLCer or Monster...
She is definitely having or at the beginning of a nervous breakdown. Doesn't change the fact that she wants us to separate/divorce -- but for the first time in months I feel like we were both really talking to one another from the heart and really hearing each other.
Unless she was faking all of this as well -- but I don't think she was based on how she broke down at times during the conversation...
I really do need to get out of this house so we both have the space we need to heal and move forward. I still have full faith that God is working on this situation -- working on both of us --- but I also think we need the space and time away from each other for her to really miss me. Maybe I'm wrong about that -- but either way, the space from each other is needed in order for us both to continue healing.
I am glad that you had a chance to see the person behind the mask...
Or...
Did you really just see another mask....
I am not saying that it was, or wasn't. What I am saying is, to be careful that this wasn't another attempt to gain control over the situation....
Use your knowledge to see the difference for yourself.
Stranger things HAVE happened...
I am glad that you had a chance to see the person behind the mask...
Or...
Did you really just see another mask....
I am not saying that it was, or wasn't. What I am saying is, to be careful that this wasn't another attempt to gain control over the situation....
Use your knowledge to see the difference for yourself.
Stranger things HAVE happened...
I did think about that... But, based on what happened yesterday with another family member and what I know from living with her for nearly 10 years, I do think she let her walls down and that I saw the person behind the mask. And that she's really having a big nervous breakdown right now...
As I begin to look at the whole big picture and put more of the pieces of the puzzle together -- here is what I am beginning to believe...
She's probably been depressed (undiagnosed) for years -- probably from before she ever met me... We met and she was on the infatuation "high" (helped along with our very active social life with lots of friends, drinking, traveling together, etc.) up until she got pregnant... Then the depression kicked back in (probably helped along with shifting hormones) and after the kids were born we became so busy being parents while the depression dug in deeper... Over time -- more stress, depression continues to impact her perceptions of life and her memories of us together, hormones continue to shift as a result of midlife and peri-menopause, and then BOOM her stepmom dies unexpectedly (they were very close) and she begins uncontrolled spiral into major MLC and concludes that she's never really been happy or "in love" with me and that our relationship/marriage needs to end at the same time that she begins developing an EA with a much younger OW online (which became PA a few weeks ago)...
Maybe I'm wrong in my assessment of all of that -- we will never know unless she really begins to work through all of it in therapy... and I'll only know for sure if we ever reach a point where we can really talk about all of it.
But -- sure, you could be right... maybe it is just a new mask... But something tells me this is different... something is happening... something different...
I know her walls will go back up and that this was only temporary... So I don't think the "awakening" is happening... Maybe just that there are beginning to be some cracks in the walls...
Jer,
I need to gently remind you that my own MLC lasted for 5 years. It took a long time to reintegrate myself and be content with who I am today. It may take as equally long time as it will be for W to walk through this journey.
There will be times when the MLC will have clarity moments and/or appear to be lucid. They're far and few in between. Nothing to do with you.
I do recall a few lucid moments then went right back to confusion, pressure, and feeling like having zero control of my life & surroundings.
Jer,
I need to gently remind you that my own MLC lasted for 5 years. It took a long time to reintegrate myself and be content with who I am today. It may take as equally long time as it will be for W to walk through this journey.
If she ever makes it through the journey and doesn't get stuck. My biggest fear is that she will never be aware enough to get the help she really needs to help her go through this. I can now see patterns in her adult relationships and those patterns will just continue unless she really deals with her own issues that have nothing to do with me.
There will be times when the MLC will have clarity moments and/or appear to be lucid. They're far and few in between. Nothing to do with you.
I do recall a few lucid moments then went right back to confusion, pressure, and feeling like having zero control of my life & surroundings.
I suspect that this may be one of those moments... This was a helpful discussion this morning and it was nice to feel like I was really conversing with my W, but I do expect the walls to go back up and also assume more MLC craziness until she begins to move further along.
This is why I feel strongly about needing to get out of the house. As much as that hurts, I know she and I both need the time and space away from each other for both of us to move forward on the journeys we both need to take. While I feel like I am able to make some progress living under the same roof, I do think I will be able to make more progress when I have the emotional, mental, and spiritual distance from her. And she needs to live the reality of only having the kids half-time as well as the reality of not having me in her "space" if she is ever going to realize that the unhappiness is within herself.
I just feel like I am beginning to understand a lot more about her through all of this. I always felt, as her wife/partner and friend, that I knew her better than anyone else -- and now I feel that even more strongly because I've been living with her and seeing all of this for so long. I wasn't aware of what was really going on, but now it's as if my eyes are finally fully open and I can really see everything. None of that changes how she feels about me -- but it allows me to have a much better understanding of this situation which helps me have more compassion and less bitterness towards her.
We still have such a long road ahead of us through all of this... a marathon... with a roller-coaster built-in...
The irony in all of this is that through all of this I feel like I am beginning to really understand what real love is... real, unconditional love that doesn't require the other person to reciprocate that love in order for it to exist... I thought I understood what all of that was before this hurricane hit, but now I really do understand it... I can also say the same for my understanding of forgiveness... True forgiveness that doesn't require the other person to say "sorry" or ask for forgiveness...
Without taking away from Wonka's MLC and lucid moments. I will say that as an LBSer, those lucid moments that my wife may or may not have had felt like a trick, trap or just another way to get what she wanted.
As genuine as they might have been they did not last long enough to put any faith in them or to let those moments weaken my resolve on an issue.
Consistency of word and actions shows true intent.
Don't trust the crocodile tears.
Are you familiar with the scorpion and the frog story?
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.
"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
"I could not help myself. It is my nature."
It serves you much better to be untrusting right now.
Forgiveness is fine, and it is vital, later, especially later. But do not forget.
Jer,
You have received some fantabulous advice. I haven't been on much lately but your post struck my fancy so I am responding. Take it for what it's worth and please don't think I am trying to be a downer. I read some of these threads, have flashbacks, and sometimes wonder whether I should chime in or not.
Nervous breakdown? Same thing with my xh. Several people including himself thought he was having one. I have never seen anything like it. Your w is angry...very angry so while I do agree you want to validate her feelings, don't get sucked into this horse caca. And that is what it is...Caca.
Your W is completely and totally irrational. Don't engage with batsh!t. It is a fruitless and painful task. Worry about yourself and your kids. I know you love W, however, only she can decide to truly get help and I can tell you she is a loooooooong way from being done. I don't say this to be a doomer, however, I have seen enough and read enough to know this is probably the truth. It's like when someone's BD was 2 weeks ago and they label themselves in piecing. They. just. aren't.
My xh told me through sobs that he had no idea (and this is a direct quote) "how I could function being so logical." Something tells me this is something your W would say.
Protect yourself financially. Let her decide to work through her stuff...or not. You be the best Jer and focus on being the best mom. Your little peeps need a stable figure in their life.
Hang in there:)
Never heard that story before -- but yes, I know I shouldn't be very trusting right now no matter how authentic the tears and breakdown seemed this morning.
Jer,
You have received some fantabulous advice. I haven't been on much lately but your post struck my fancy so I am responding. Take it for what it's worth and please don't think I am trying to be a downer. I read some of these threads, have flashbacks, and sometimes wonder whether I should chime in or not.
Nervous breakdown? Same thing with my xh. Several people including himself thought he was having one. I have never seen anything like it. Your w is angry...very angry so while I do agree you want to validate her feelings, don't get sucked into this horse caca. And that is what it is...Caca.
Your W is completely and totally irrational. Don't engage with batsh!t. It is a fruitless and painful task. Worry about yourself and your kids. I know you love W, however, only she can decide to truly get help and I can tell you she is a loooooooong way from being done. I don't say this to be a doomer, however, I have seen enough and read enough to know this is probably the truth. It's like when someone's BD was 2 weeks ago and they label themselves in piecing. They. just. aren't.
My xh told me through sobs that he had no idea (and this is a direct quote) "how I could function being so logical." Something tells me this is something your W would say.
Protect yourself financially. Let her decide to work through her stuff...or not. You be the best Jer and focus on being the best mom. Your little peeps need a stable figure in their life.
Hang in there:)
Good points. From the anger she displayed last night to the tears and breakdown this morning in front of me -- I have never seen anything like this from her before in the entire time we've been together... I've never seen her that angry (as she was last night) and I've never seen her breakdown like she did this morning.
Now, long before her I was with someone for a number of years who was completely crazy and would do this kind of stuff all too frequently as a control and manipulation tactic -- so I've seen it before, but just not in my W who always seemed so much more stable and emotionally composed until recently.
I know you are right about her being a long way off from getting help... I know that is true and it makes me sad for her, our kids, and for myself. But I can't help her or control her -- can only take care of myself right now...
And very true about the kids... I am trying very hard to take good care of myself emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically so that I can be a stable parent for them. I've seen a huge improvement in my parenting through all of this -- which would be a good thing normally, but even more so now with all of this going on.
If anything, the past 24-36 hours have shown me that my W and I really do need our space from each other. I have no idea how that is going to happen right now, but I know it has to happen.
But speaking of taking care of myself... I did just get home from my IC session... Gave my C an update on the situation including what has transpired over the past 24-36 hours... Then could only say that right now my brain feels like scrambled eggs... Which is the truth. Everything over the past 24 hours especially has just churned up so much muck inside of me... I've been in tears off and on throughout the day because while it was nice to feel some sort of connection to my W this morning, it also made it so very clear to me how messed up she really is and that there is still such a long road ahead -- and that's IF she makes her way through the tunnel and does what she needs to do to take care of herself and her own issues -- and that's a big IF considering her history with relationships...
I need a huge break from all of this and I don't know how I am going to get that break right now. I still need to be a parent... Even though my W is making an effort to re-engage in some of the parenting activities, the kids still need both of us right now... But boy do I need a break...
Why not just go away for the weekend this weekend? The kids will survive you being gone for two days, W will have to deal with them all by herself (might be a good reality check if you've been doing most of the heavy lifting with the kids) and you could get out and have some FUN.
And go ahead and be a little vague and mysterious about your plans for the weekend - W might as well get a taste of wondering where you are and who else might find you attractive.
I remember checking into a nice hotel for a night when my ex and I were going through it - just 30 mins from my home, I remember being all teary at the desk checking in and the staff being so very nice to me. I just laid by the pool and had a margarita and ate a nice dinner in the restaurant and watched a movie in my room. Seems like so little, but it was very healing to me at the time to take the time for myself, when everything up until then had all been about taking care of my spouse and my kids.
KML -- I love that idea... Unfortunately, for this weekend, W is going out of town for her brother's wedding celebration (he and his partner actually exchanged vows over the summer in a private ceremony and this weekend is a big celebration that includes the entire family)... a wedding celebration that I was un-invited to by my W. Her brother and his partner want me to be there -- my name was on the invitation. Her family loves me and considers me to be a part of the family. None of them are happy about this situation... But what they think or feel doesn't matter to her right now.
So I will have a weekend without her here, but I'll still be in charge of all of the kids on my own... which isn't a big deal -- I can handle the kids... Remember -- we had 10 days without her here a few weeks back and we all did just fine... But it's not the break that I need in terms of a break from everything like you described...
But that is a good idea and maybe I'll try to do something like that soon.
For now I'll just look forward to some time without her here in the house this weekend.
Just got home from a wonderful dinner related to some of the work that I do -- can't go into details, but was basically a dinner celebrating the success of something that I helped design (okay -- will take the credit -- the entire model is my design) that is in the process of growing and becoming a really interesting model for learning. For me personally it was an evening of strong affirmation of my ideas, knowledge, and skills -- and it's been a while since I've felt that on a professional level.
When I got home, W asked how it was and I told her... I hadn't actually told her that in December I was invited to serve on the school board for this so that was a surprise to her. She acted happy for me and was somewhat interested in hearing about my thoughts on the evening and my happiness about the success of all of this (my happiness at seeing an idea that I had grow into a viable model for learning beyond the traditional school model) -- but there was definitely some distance and her interest was not at the level it used to be pre-BD. BUT -- at least she did express some interest... any interest is more than I expected given the circumstances.
Regardless of what she might really think about me or my happiness with regard to this -- for me it was a great evening and makes me feel very successful professionally even if it doesn't translate to making any money (because it doesn't -- I work in public education... not a great place for making big bucks.) For a couple of hours I was able to focus on something other than the sad situation at home, and that felt REALLY good.
You are right to identify your w behavior as a nervous breakdown. It definitely is the case in many of our situations.
The bigger issue becomes is she getting treatment and is she getting good treatment. So so many bad terrible therapists. Especially when someone is having a breakdown and the therapist doesn't recognize it.
I will pray for your w recovery from her very real disease
The bigger issue becomes is she getting treatment and is she getting good treatment. So so many bad terrible therapists. Especially when someone is having a breakdown and the therapist doesn't recognize it.
I will pray for your w recovery from her very real disease
I think she is seeing a very good therapist -- but he can only help her as much as she is being honest with him about what is going on... and up until recently she wasn't being completely honest with him about everything. I still don't think she's telling him everything -- and I don't think she is aware enough to be able to tell him everything... She's still looking at her problems as external problems and not internal problems... Until she starts to look internally, forward progress will be very slow.
Thank you so much for the prayers.
Wierdest TM'ing with W this afternoon... Started with her typing "Babe..." then next message telling me that guy at work asked if she was single now... I typed "?" then she said "at work"... went on to explain that there is apparently another single lesbian in another department at work but she's not W's type so W thought she would tell me for when/if I'm ready to start dating other women... So we go on to discuss that with me saying that I'm not ready... and we just went on and on about the idea of me dating other people -- or at the very least me going out to dinner "as friends" with women just to start getting back out there and her telling me to go ahead and do that and that she's okay with it... So I said I might go out with a friend next weekend and then she asked if she could go out to dinner with one of her friends next Thursday (a good college friend who is straight and happily married) -- I said yes then at the exact same time we both typed "Just put it on the calendar" and then we both typed "LOL" at the fact that we were typing the same thoughts at the same time... It was so light-hearted and friendly and continued that way through the rest of the conversation... And interactions at home this evening were still light-hearted and friendly between us...
I do have to admit -- when I first saw the word "Babe" on my phone followed by the message about the guy asking if she was single, I almost wanted to TM back "Um, you do know you are texting Jer and not OW, right?" But decided against trying to stir up monster in case she really was meaning to text me... Wanted to see where this conversation went if that were the case... and boy did it go somewhere I never expected...
Super strange... I mean, I appreciate the friendly banter which I've really missed, but the topic of conversation about dating other people made me sad... My W has a jealous streak in her and I was kind of hoping that at some point down the road I might start going out with one of my friends and that might cause my W to rethink things a bit (but I know that's still a long way off if she ever starts to wake up)...
And of course, I couldn't help but think as we were having the TM conversation that maybe she's telling me all of this to help her absolve herself of guilt over her OW... Which I'm pretty certain that's one of the motivations behind her encouraging me to get back out on the dating scene...
It has been such an interesting week here in MLC-ville... If I weren't immersed in it, I'd be grabbing some popcorn to watch all of the craziness going on with my W this week. For those of you keeping score at home:
Sunday night, Monday, Monday night = monster, raging & fire-breathing monster unlike anything I've ever seen
Tuesday morning = starts out in monster mode then crumbles into sobbing mess with me -- calling me baby, holding hands, hugging, tears unlike anything I've ever seen from her, but still talking about separation
Tuesday night = civil, almost friendly
Wednesday morning = friendly
By Wednesday afternoon = Super friendly TM banter about me dating other people but also starting the TM with "Babe" which she hasn't texted to me I don't know how long... then very friendly at home... But still sleeping downstairs on the sofa, still focused on separation, and as far as I know still in contact with OW...
Right at this moment I am so glad that I recognized what was going on so early after BD (within days) and that I recognized at the same moment how much help I needed to get to a better place mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically as quickly as possible because I started all of that work immediately (even before coming on to these boards)... So glad I did all of that then because it's really helping me deal with what is going on this week. I'm just shaking my head at what I am observing in her.
At the very least -- this gives me hope that at some point we can come through this and be best friends who can excel at the co-parenting thing together... Of course, I'd love for a miracle to happen and for her to emerge from this realizing and feeling all of the love for me that I know is just buried deep within her somewhere, but I know that I've got to prepare for the worst while I hope for the best.
Hi Jer, I think they believe they want us to date others as a way of letting themselves off the hook, as you surmised. The reality is that if it happens or is even likely they can be very jealous and possessive. It is OK for them but not necessarily OK for us!
And yes, they are all over the place emotionally at this stage. Emotions racing around in their head as if they are on some sort of strange drug. Mood swings, anger, even occasional bouts of remorse, and loads of self pity.
As you know, most people who got through MLC have had a deeply traumatised childhood or adolescence, never dealt with. For a period of time they hold it together, often many years, while dealing with an internal despair that they cannot voice because it is so shaming to them (shaming is the only word I can think of but it isn't exactly right).
When they externalise it, they run away from their old life, including us. In their heads we are the problem, not them. It usually takes a long time for them to sort out their deep underlying problems, and some never do. All we can do is roll with the punches, and accept that these are damaged people, acting out (easier said than done).
We can use our pain to grow and become strong. Whatever happens with them (and we do not have to stop loving these beautiful damaged people) we have it in ourselves to learn and grow through our own pain. Not a barrel of laughs, but we are where we are.
Some MLCers appear to work through it fast, but these are the exceptions. For most it is a long journey.
Jer,
Yep, Bea's right about "letting themselves off the hook"...I will put it in another way. It is a way to assuage themselves of the guilt of their A's. They know they're wrong about the affair, but won't let go.
So they want you to do the same so they're not the bad guy.
Stick to your guns and say, "No. Dating is not appropriate when I am in a committed relationship with children as a family unit."
Throw out some choice truth darts is okay to do with the MLCer.
Jer
^^ X3 on the above
Do not fall for that trap as it justifies what they want in their head. In fact I would hush about who you go out with and slap a general "friends" on it at all times. She will be happy and civil if she thinks you are dating because like above, she is free from the guilt of being the one who has not honored the relationship as you have done.
Some time back I got a VERY similar exchange, I was a great guy, I deserve to be happy, blah blah blah ... all so she could feel better and focus on OM and that A, I told her that I was a married man and that would be considered adultery, I also went on to let her know what she was doing was disrespectful to me, our M and our family and in no way would I be persuaded to go out (lower myself and standards as she did ... I did not say it that way but it was implied) and do as she was doing just so she could feel better. It was one of those exchanged where I was actually offended that she would assume I was going to just up and go out.
Few months pass and I was having dinner with a group of friends .. 1 guy and 3 gals, she flipped out and was all upset that I have not taken her out on a date in years.
So yeah ... stick to yourself and do your thing, but do not fall for being open and honest, be mysterious and that way she can not justify her OW1, 2 , or 3 ... be the rock and the lighthouse.
Hi Jer, I think they believe they want us to date others as a way of letting themselves off the hook, as you surmised. The reality is that if it happens or is even likely they can be very jealous and possessive. It is OK for them but not necessarily OK for us!
Bingo. Beatrice hits it out of the park.
You know how we say everyone here is unique but everything is the same? I think most of us have had our spouses try and get us to see other people or at least be open to it. As if us doing so would either:
A - make it ok that they were.
B - make it so you would focus your attention on someone besides them...oh look a bird! Right over there! You know a distraction.
Its sort of like their idea that being friends after everything was an option.
W - I can still see us being friend, you know like how we used to be.
Me - Oh, that super sweet, its almost precious how naive you are.
: )
Jer,
Yep, Bea's right about "letting themselves off the hook"...I will put it in another way. It is a way to assuage themselves of the guilt of their A's. They know they're wrong about the affair, but won't let go.
So they want you to do the same so they're not the bad guy.
Stick to your guns and say, "No. Dating is not appropriate when I am in a committed relationship with children as a family unit."
Throw out some choice truth darts is okay to do with the MLCer.
Yeah -- i didn't use the exact words that you used but did say that I'm not ready to even think about that yet and it's too soon for me. Mentioned something about it being not healthy in my opinion and that my focus needs to be on me and our family right now. I think I can follow up by saying I've thought more about our TM conversation and feel that it isn't appropriate for me to date or get involved with anyone else right now.
She needs to feel guilty about this. It helps that her mother has also acknowledged the A to her (even though W denied it to her mom) -- referring to it as a "rebound" that started before W and I were "done" which is not healthy or appropriate, and telling her that she sees it as a pattern in W's relationships over the years. W of course blew all of that off in their discussion... But I trust that, like everyone here says, that the MLCer does hear everything being said to them right now -- and that if we are lucky they do recognize it and process it later on down the road.
Time will only tell if that happens in my W's situation.
I agree -- it is a trap... Not going to fall for it... If I do go out, i am planning to say I'm just going out with "some friends" and make it sound like a group even if it's really only one or two friends. And, of course, give no other details or specifics...
The thought of even trying to date anyone right now makes my stomach turn... It's just not where my heart and mind are right now... If anything, I'd really just like some time completely alone for a little while. I don't even think I would have the mental and emotional energy to even date my W right now if she did have a complete change of heart... This whole MLC thing has just wiped me out, and I can only imagine the storm going on inside of her head, heart, and soul.
Don't forget to have fun.
Thinking of you
Don't forget to have fun.
Thinking of you
Very true... I didn't mean to sound like I'm in a mood where I don't want to have fun... I do plan to get out with friends -- but with some boundaries in place so that if I am out with friends (one or a group) where there might be some interest, I am not doing anything to lead anyone on or fall into the trap of doing my own "escape" with someone who might be available. As tempting as that might be in weaker moments... I know where my heart really is and I know that I have to remain on a healthy path of developing myself emotionally, mentally, and spiritually in order to continue to grow in a healthy way so that I am better prepared for the next relationship (whether that's in a new R with my W or a new R with someone else).
So yes -- still working on GALing, PMA, 180s, and having as much fun as possible... especially with my kids... :-)
W just left for the airport to spend the weekend at her brother's wedding... I was originally supposed to go -- but all of those plans were made pre-BD... So the kids and I have a fun weekend planned :-) I'm already feeling a bit of relief knowing that I'm away from her energy until very late Sunday night (she'll get home after I've gone to bed) and I am looking forward to this small break. Everything has been very friendly between the two of us over the past couple of days -- doesn't mean much of anything right now because A with OW is still ongoing -- but it is a bit nice even if it is a bit confusing & frustrating... W is acting like her old self quite a bit, just without the affection (hugs, kisses, I love you's) that we had in the past. But, whatever, it's MLC and it is what it is...
As for me -- still workin' on my masterpiece!
Okay -- just having a moment that I'm obviously going to have to bring up in my next IC session... need to just write it out here in case any of you have had similar experience/issue and have any good advice...
I was over on the The Hearts Blessing blog reading through a ton of articles. I got to the article about emotional triggers -- which I initially thought might be about triggers from the MLC or the A/OW... But as I read it my mind started drifting strongly to one of the biggest communication issues between my W and I.
Here is the issue...
My W complains that she doesn't know how to talk to me about issues or things that upset her because when she has done so in the past I would start crying, and when she's tried to get me to explain why I'm crying I often told her that I felt like she was criticizing me. I do realize that she wasn't really criticizing me -- just trying to tell me what she needed from me. So I started thinking about that a lot more and have just realized that of course I always started crying because there was an emotional trigger going on within me... And now -- just tonight -- I seem to have some sort of clarity around this that I've NEVER had before and I think it has to do with something related to my dad and my relationship with him.
Background -- my parents are divorced and because of some of the aspects of their relationship over the years, my dad and I grew distant in my teens and didn't really begin to bridge that gap until within the past 10 years (once my W and I had kids). My dad is an adult child of an alcoholic and is completely out of touch with his emotional side because of this. My mom and I also realize now that he is probably a lifelong MLCer. So he and I can talk about practical things and the weather, but there is no real talk about emotional topics with my dad.
And now I've just got a very strong sense that the emotional trigger is tied somehow to my dad... But I can't quite figure out the specifics about that right at this moment tonight... I can only just say that tonight I am seeing/sensing the connection in my head finally.
So -- obviously I probably need to bring this up with my C next week in my IC session... not sure what else I need to do to figure this out other than just journal it and let the idea marinate for a bit.
Thoughts?
Following up on last post with more thoughts...
Obviously, because my dad isn't in touch emotionally, trying to talk to him about this as a way to explore it in more depth is not really an option...
Maybe I can talk to my mom about it... Maybe she has some insight into this that can help me -- she has been on the front row watching my relationship with my dad for my entire life and her perspective will obviously be different from mine -- perhaps more objective than mine...
I think, because my dad left my mom and I was the oldest child, I've always desperately wanted his approval -- to know that he approved of ME... who I am... what I do... my abilities, knowledge, personality, etc... I don't immediately recall him ever criticizing me, but I also don't ever remember him being overly generous with statements of approval (can't recall many "Great job!" "So proud of you!" types of comments) so maybe it's more of an absence of those kinds of comments that led me to a sense or feeling of being criticized by him? Combined with possible issues around thinking he left because of me... I was 5 when they divorced -- prime age for thinking it was all about me...
Just more thoughts on this... could be totally off on this, but getting a very strong feeling that I'm digging into something really critical here for my own growth and progress...
And at least I'm really focusing on myself now and not my W :-)
Hey Jer! Hmm... interesting when something strikes a chord, huh? That's some good diggin! I know when I do some digging... sometimes it is really hard. I cringe a lot. But, facing this stuff head on is great! I would think it is a great idea to bring up in ic. Hey, you never know what you will get! Maybe just talking bout it will bring a sense of peace. Or, it will guide you to dig a little further.
My parents divorced, but... my sitch was a little different. My mom was a child of an alcoholic. My dad wasn't, but dealt with some serious "issues" from his dad (whom I loved dearly and didn't know about this "issues" until I was older.... they lived in the south), but his dad was in WWII and gone for 5 years facing serious stuff. Anyway, my dad became an alcoholic and I think it progressed around the same age as you were when your dad left.
My parents separated, got back together, divorced for 10 years and are now remarried. I REALLY wonder if my dad dealt with MLC. ANyway... not totally sure why I am hijacking to share... but... I understand. Things were different in my r with my dad. I kind of just wrote him off. But I know he tried in his own way the best he could. But I did talk to an IC about it a few years ago. He told me that if the r is fixed in adulthood and good, that we have the ability to just let it go.
I do have a great r with my dad now. We get along very well. I know he would do anything in the world for me. But I can also tell you that we do not get that personal or emotional at all. He is spiritual (as his independent recovery- he did alone!), but that is it. He loved my husband as a son. He would even tell him he loved him and didn't say that to my brothers. He has not spoken a word to me about my xh. He just can't go there. So he's not in MLC, if he ever were.. but that part just isn't addressed.
I dont' think this really helped you... I'm realizing... but, I guess to sum it up.. you are digging and heading in a good direction. Facing things that are and can be difficult to face. And when we look at it at face value- how it affects our lives today, it can be shocking, embarrassing, and.... a little shameful. At least for me. BUT! That is the amazing part.. to see it, acknowledge the impact and learn from it. Use it to make us grow.
OK, Jer... I think I have embarrassed myself enough here. Keep going. Keep doing the work, and YES! discuss it with your ic. It is a great opportunity for growth.
You are doing amazingly well. Good for you! Keep it up.
My parents divorced, but... my sitch was a little different....
My parents separated, got back together, divorced for 10 years and are now remarried.
OMG - Mighty! My parents divorced when I was 5... Dad remarried someone else and mom was with someone else for quite a few years THEN dad got divorced from 2nd W and mom and boyfriend split up AND THEN my mom and dad remarried each other (7 years in-between divorce and remarriage instead of 10 in your case) then got divorced again about 9 years later but now live right next door to each other... So you and I do have more in common!
OK, Jer... I think I have embarrassed myself enough here. Keep going. Keep doing the work, and YES! discuss it with your ic. It is a great opportunity for growth.
You are doing amazingly well. Good for you! Keep it up.
Thanks!
Actually just got off the phone with my mom and she confirmed a lot of what I was thinking... and remembered more incidents that I didn't remember that confirm my thoughts on this... She also thinks I'm on the right track with this and said the same thing you did -- bring it up with my C at my next session and see where it goes.
Had a great chat with my mom about my dad, their marriage, her boyfriend who I did think of as a stepdad even though they never got married, and my relationship with my dad. Fortunately my mom and I have always had a great relationship so the only parental issues I have are related to my dad -- but she did acknowledge the need to have a talk at some point in the future about her relationship with my "stepdad" because she said she knows I had issues when they broke up and she wants me to have a better understanding of what happened with all of that. I told her we could do that, but assured her that I've gotten over any anger or bitterness about their breakup and I don't blame her for any of it -- that as an adult now with a few relationships under my belt I've got a much better perspective on it.
Feeling pretty good right now...
Another update related to me and my process -- continuing to feel much stronger faith that God really is working on this entire situation. I can feel God working in me every day and I am starting to see how God is beginning to place some signs and possible obstacles in my W's line of sight... If only she would wake up enough to see these messages... I can't do that for her though, so I'll leave it to God to continue to place those signs, messages, and obstacles out there as He sees fit in order to continue to try to guide my W towards the path He has for her. It just helps me feel stronger in my faith to feel God working within me and to see these signs & messages that I do believe are designed to eventually guide my W in the right direction for her process through her MLC.
I just know that God is working on this and I just need to get out of His way so He can work... I just need to continue to work on me and follow the path He has for me during this very difficult journey. :-)
Hi you guys. First off - I think these two stories are interesting in many many ways, and Jer, think you definitely need to discuss all of this with your IC.
Many of us who marry MLCers have got emotional damage which in some way is 'attractive' to the MLCer. I had a very happy childhood (unlke my xh) but a devastating tragedy in my teens which I didn't begin to deal with for many years. In fact I stuffed in down the back of the emotional sofa, and was encouraged to do so by all around me as a sign that I was OK. Their feelings mattered more to me than my own. Weird?? It seemed normal at the time!
So I was damaged goods when I met my xh. I think that if the tragedy had not occurred I wouldn't have married my xh - I would have seen his damage. As it was, we 'dysfunctioned' beautifully together for a long time. Not saying it was all dysfunctional, much of it was good and fine and amazing, but there was something there, I now see, that wasn't OK, that was a weakness in the foundation.
I am relating my own experience because it took me a long long time to realise that our spouses' MLC in our lives in not a coincidental or random happening. We did nothing to trigger it, and probably by our kindness and stability we held them together for a long time, but, and it is a big but, we were not OK ourselves.
Isn't it interesting that you two post such similar stories?
Hi you guys. First off - I think these two stories are interesting in many many ways, and Jer, think you definitely need to discuss all of this with your IC.
Many of us who marry MLCers have got emotional damage which in some way is 'attractive' to the MLCer. I had a very happy childhood (unlke my xh) but a devastating tragedy in my teens which I didn't begin to deal with for many years. In fact I stuffed in down the back of the emotional sofa, and was encouraged to do so by all around me as a sign that I was OK. Their feelings mattered more to me than my own. Weird?? It seemed normal at the time!
So I was damaged goods when I met my xh. I think that if the tragedy had not occurred I wouldn't have married my xh - I would have seen his damage. As it was, we 'dysfunctioned' beautifully together for a long time. Not saying it was all dysfunctional, much of it was good and fine and amazing, but there was something there, I now see, that wasn't OK, that was a weakness in the foundation.
I am relating my own experience because it took me a long long time to realise that our spouses' MLC in our lives in not a coincidental or random happening. We did nothing to trigger it, and probably by our kindness and stability we held them together for a long time, but, and it is a big but, we were not OK ourselves.
Isn't it interesting that you two post such similar stories?
One of the books that I started reading after BD was Getting the Love That You Want and the main point of the book is that our choice of mate/partner/spouse is never an accident -- we are always subconsciously drawn to people who can help us work through our old/childhood issues. Fascinating concept and very interesting book... Definitely along the lines of what you wrote above. The key is being aware of this so that we can allow for that healing to happen -- but too often, instead of allowing the healing to happen, we interpret the "issues" in our marriage/relationship as a sign that we are not meant to be together when that is not the case at all. So the MLCer definitely tries to do this running away -- and the LBS, if they don't do what most of us here have done, will run away as well, end the marriage, and both will just repeat the pattern again and again.
I can definitely look back over my past relationships and see how I selected people at the time who were ideal or close to ideal to help me work through my childhood.adolescent issues... And in some cases this did happen -- but it happened without me being consciously aware of it or consciously aware of the fact that I chose that particular person at that particular time for that particular purpose... If that makes any sense at all.
I am now much more aware of all of this and am in the beginning stages of understanding how/why my subconscious was drawn to my W.
And yes -- so very interesting that Mighty and I have some similarities in our family backgrounds!
I have to wonder if what I saw in my parents relationship is what gives me hope that my W will eventually wake up and turn back to me.
New topic -- S7 had flag football game this morning... and he scored 3 TDs including the game-ending winning TD! Yay!
Gave W play-by-play via TM and it was a fun TM exchange between the two of us. We have a great TM relationship... too bad that can't transfer over into F2F like it did pre-BD. Maybe the TM can help with seed planting for the future... For now it just is what it is -- light friendly banter between the two of us that is such a nice break from monster, spewing, and the coldness that creeps in when she starts spinning.
Last night there was an important family event (on W's side) that I was un-invited to by W. This morning I've received a few messages from HER family members letting me know that my presence was sorely missed by the family and by the friends of the family last night, and that I was on their minds and in their hearts this weekend.
At least one family member made it very clear that many people discussed my absence and expressed sadness over it.
And one of the people who reached out to me today was one of the two family members who were the "stars" of the event last night (it was for the two of them). It says quite a bit that he took the time this morning to reach out to me to let me know that I was missed and loved -- especially since I know it was a very late night for everyone and I am sure that most family members went to a late brunch together this morning.
All of the messages I've received today mean a lot to me. But I also think the messages are a clear sign from God or the universe (whichever you prefer - I prefer to think of it as God) about this whole entire situation... it says quite a bit that her family members are reaching out to me today and that I was on their minds last night and continued to be on their minds enough this morning that they felt the need to reach out to me.
I received the last message right after spending a few moments in prayer asking God to continue showing me the way and to help me correct course if I am not supposed to stand (with loving detachment) for our marriage. And the last message was from a family member that I don't really communicate with very much, and who is also a minister. At this point though, the question is: Am I supposed to interpret those messages as a "yes, keep standing, but detach, let go and let God work, be still and know, etc." or am I supposed to interpret them as "let go and move on -- things may end with W, but these people will always be in your life because the love and bond between all you will always exist."...
Maybe I'm just over-analyzing all of this...
Royally messed up... Long story -- confided in a member of W's family and this family member told other family members which caused some problems for W this weekend. She confronted me about it today -- caught me by surprise (which she is good at) and I had not choice but to be honest about it.
This whole entire situation is so messed up -- everything -- everything!
I touched base with this family member afterwards and he gave me a diff story -- but at this point, given how many lies my W has woven, I'm more inclined to believe the family member... And if he is telling the truth then my W really is very messed up, needs a LOT of help, and deserves any negative consequences for her actions... And apparently, based on what she told me, there were some negative consequences this weekend in terms of interactions with some key family members (clearly they disapprove of what she has done and is doing to me and our kids). I won't even go into what this family member said about how my W acted over the weekend with the family... What he described doesn't surprise me (because I've seen it here repeatedly), but just... whatever... Glad someone else observed it.
Regardless of what is right or wrong in this entire situation -- me talking to any of her family members is a huge strike against me... Even though another one of her family members has said she would have done the same thing in my situation.
We did have some open conversation about OW today... They are planning for OW to visit -- but W made comment about only being able to see OW a few times each year...So really?! They are both looking forward to a future where they both live in separate countries and only see each a few times each year? C'mon! I know my W better than to believe she could be satisfied in a R like that... and I don't know many 25 year olds who would be satisfied with a R like that... But again... whatever...
Who is this person living in this house with me?
After a very restless night of sleep... some more reflections...
Yes, I was wrong to confide so much in this family member of my W... But had I not done that then they would not know how many lies she is telling and as a result of them knowing this, there were apparently some expressions and actions of disapproval this past weekend.
Did my W feel hurt this weekend by all of that? She says she did. (Again, she's apparently much better at lying than I ever realized until recently, so who really knows...)
But none of this would be happening if she hadn't made the choices she did this past fall. None of this would be happening if she'd made the decision to talk to me about what was really going on with her and then seek professional help for herself as well as for us as a couple.
She also thinks she's in danger of losing her job because her performance is suffering -- which is a direct result of her emotional state and the lack of sleep she is getting (which is a result of being up at odd hours of the night engaging in a long distance A with someone in a different time zone.)
And now, as we get closer to separation, we are getting closer to her living the reality she thinks she wants -- me out of the house and us sharing joint custody of the kids with 50/50 possession...
So as of right now -- she is experiencing failing relationships with important family members, realizing that some key family members aren't going to buy into the fantasy with OW, is in danger of losing her job, is definitely suffering from sleep deprivation due to her own actions, and is on the verge of experiencing only having the kids half of the time and completely on her own during that time.
How much more needs to be added to that plate for her to hit rock bottom?
In other news -- I should be getting an interview soon for a job at the district. Might not necessarily be the job I am looking for right now, but it would get me back in and I can keep applying for other positions.
As soon as I get hired back on I can start looking for a new place to live so I can remove myself from the implosion going on here with W.
Jer,
Good luck on the job interview. Don't worry about whether or not it's exactly what you want-it's a start. Also, it will help give you something new to focus on and work towards. That will help you in detachment and building the life you want with the kids.
I'll let others chime in on the family member discussion. My x ILs are watching my kids as we speak and haven't spoken (xh's choice ) with their son in over a year. They love him as they should , however at this point they've decided to let him be. Probably a wise move as they are hurt. Letting him be while painful, seems to have helped them too.
And this is where I drag out what may be perceived as GB downerism.. Don't worry aboy W and rock bottom. Sadly, you may be surprised that they continue down a muddled, grenade ridden path for years. Some never hit rock bottom. And some to settle there with a blanket and pillow. I'm only saying this because I don't want you to get your hopes up that *this* has to be reaching tipping point. I've been there and so have many others.
Focus on you and the kids. Let W keep on her path.
Hang in there !!
Thanks!
Just got a call and the interview is scheduled for next Wednesday. Again -- it's a few pay grade below what I really want, but it will get me back into the district and from there I can keep moving up.
Yes - I am torn on the issue with the family member... On one hand I do feel bad about it, but on the other hand... Well, everything that has happened up to this point is all because of the choices that my W made.
All I can do now at this point is just get out of her way and let her continue on her merry little way...
The hardest part will be protecting the kids from this. I do think she is a wonderful mom and I don't want to limit her time with the kids -- or get into a nasty custody battle. I do believe the kids need both of us in their lives -- but I am worried about them being exposed to her stress and depression when I move out. I also am not sure I can trust her when she tells me (like she did yesterday) that she will never say anything bad about me to the kids and she will never allow them to believe that I "abandoned" them (since I am the one moving out.) It's nice that she said all of that yesterday -- but seriously, at this point, I don't know if I could trust her to tell me if it's raining outside or not because it just seems like she is lying about EVERYTHING and to everyone... And the only person she is really confiding in is a 25-year old -- and she's probably lying to her as well.
So messed up. So happy to finally see some positive movement on the job sitch... time to keep moving forward to a better and healthier living situation for me and the our kids (at least I hope it will be a healthier situation for the kids...)
Yes - I am torn on the issue with the family member... On one hand I do feel bad about it, but on the other hand... Well, everything that has happened up to this point is all because of the choices that my W made.
You know, if she badgers you about it again, I would just say something like "It's not my responsibility to keep your secrets for you".
And if she bemoans the effect of the fallout on her, you could say "Choices have consequences. You've made choices that hurt me and the kids; I'm sorry that those choices are also hurting you."
^^^ Like! Like what Ellie suggested....bang on!
Thanks kml and Wonka -- your responses are in complete alignment with what my therapist told me this afternoon as well as the opinion of both her family member (who is involved in this) and her own mother.
Everything that is happening to her is a direct result of the choices that she has made.
And FWIW -- just got an email from the other "star" of the weekend family event expressing his love for me and his sadness that I was not there in person. He shared a link to the videos that were played at the event and in one of the videos there were a couple of photos that included me (group family shots from over the years).
I had a pretty good IC this afternoon. Completely convinced now that I just need to get out of here and let W spin her little path of destruction through her own life.
I just wish that moving out didn't also mean creating a broken home for our kids -- but I have no choice in the matter... Again, one of the consequences of W's actions -- but she isn't seeing the negative impact (on the kids) and isn't owning up to any of the negative consequences in her own life... Everything right now is still everyone else's fault. Definitely acting like a teenager right now.
Don't beat yourself up for one second.
You are moving forward in the right direction.
Your kids are blessed and lucky kids. They have 2 moms that love them and can provide for them. Don't write their story as a sad story but as an awesome story.
You are doing so great and dealing with so much crappolA. Hang in there
Thanks for the words of confidence!
I do have moments where I do feel and know that I am handling this well considering everything... But then I do have moments where I wonder if I could be handling it better or doing something different... But I guess we all go through that when we are dealing with this and we try to make the best decisions we can in the moment.
To be fair to myself -- confiding in the family member happened very early after BD before I'd learned much about MLC or DB or anything and everything else I've learned since then... Had I known all of what I know now, I might not have confided as much in this family member. But then again -- I do have to keep in mind that now there are some real consequences occurring for her as a result of her actions.
In one of his last messages to me, this family member said "Please don't feel as if you have done anything wrong. You haven't. Quite the opposite actually."
In other news, W has a really bad cold -- came home on Sunday with it. At the beginning of last week she asked if she could start taking the kids to school in the mornings (she has never done this except when I've been out of town or when I had an early morning meeting -- very rare), so she did that every day last week. This week - I've been taking them because she's too sick in the morning. Today she is staying home from work because she says she was up all night coughing. How convenient that I'm still living in the house and able to easily take the kids to school instead of her and say "No problem, get some rest." 'Guess what babe, when we are both single parents and in possession of the kids... There won't be someone else there to bring the kids to school when we feel like death warmed over -- doesn't matter how sick we feel, we will still have to pull ourselves out of bed, get dressed, fix breakfast, and take the kids to school.' I'm sure she's not thinking about that right now though...
But then again -- I do have to keep in mind that now there are some real consequences occurring for her as a result of her actions.
Abso-freakin-lutely....
It shows a detachment, allowing the MLCer to "own" their decisions. And I feel that it is one of the most vital things.
The sense of relief when you finally are able to set their luggage down, and stop carrying it for them.
It doesn't mean to relish in that, or even want for it. Just, simply, the best thing for BOTH of you..
Keep moving forward...you are doing well
In some of the archives I came across a post that mentioned an article titled "Serotonin: From Bliss to Despair" -- it's part of a larger article about neurotransmitters and depression.
Just Googled it and read that particular part of the article... Wow! So many of the symptoms fit my W perfectly, and definitely fit with the profile of an MLCer.
And I can even recognize some of the symptoms as occurring within her at least for the past few years if not longer when I go back and recall certain behaviors and incidents that have occurred in the past.
When her mother mentioned to her last week that she sees signs of depression, my W blew it off... she just doesn't want to hear that from anyone -- especially from her mom... I haven't said anything to her about depression because I know better than to do that right now...
The "major" driver of MLC is depression, as well as childhood issues. There was a book that I read about depression many years ago that stated that depression is about the past and anxiety is about the future.
You are very wise not to advise her that she's depressed. She will blow it off and say she isn't. She knows that something is wrong but will not appreciate anyone telling her what it is. As for her cold, her immune system has been compromised by the stressors. You will begin to notice that she's ill more, i.e., colds stomach bugs, aches and pains. They all have some of these going on. Some even develop blood pressure and other series issues during the crisis. Unfortunately, they are the ones that have to figure this all out by their lonesome.
Keep the focus on you, your life and the family.
The "major" driver of MLC is depression, as well as childhood issues. There was a book that I read about depression many years ago that stated that depression is about the past and anxiety is about the future.
I am having trouble figuring out what the childhood issues are because there doesn't seem to be any major trauma... If anything, could just be related to having a very controlling mother... But the signs of depression are just so very clear.
You are very wise not to advise her that she's depressed. She will blow it off and say she isn't. She knows that something is wrong but will not appreciate anyone telling her what it is. As for her cold, her immune system has been compromised by the stressors. You will begin to notice that she's ill more, i.e., colds stomach bugs, aches and pains. They all have some of these going on. Some even develop blood pressure and other series issues during the crisis. Unfortunately, they are the ones that have to figure this all out by their lonesome.
I didn't think about the immune system factor. Throughout all of this (knock on wood) I've actually stayed very well which surprises me considering how much stress this has caused my physically. She's also remained illness-free until this week. And yes, unfortunate that they have to figure this out on their own when they are surrounded by so many people who love and care about them who can easily see all of the symptoms.
Keep the focus on you, your life and the family.
Definitely trying to do that... Going out with some friends on Friday night and looking forward to my job interview next week. Just mailed off retainer agreement and check to my lawyer, so now that part is much more real... Real but necessary.
When I spoke of the immune system, I was referring to your mlcer. Your mlcer is going to experience some illness, as well as aches and pains. You, too, will experience health issues if you don't take care of yourself, but your mlcer is the one that will think that she has some series issues...but she may deny the fact that it's stress and/or depression.
Her childhood issues may not be something she has talked about. Her controlling mother may have stunted her emotional growth at an early age. She may have been ignored, treated as an after thought, not recognized for her accomplishments, encouraged, emotional abuse and/or physical abuse.
Your wife has gone back to the time that she was emotionally stunted and will need to revisit that time, figure out that she was not responsible for what transpired in her life, accept that she wasn't at fault and then grow up. Until she does, you've got to let her be and turn the focus back on to you and your family.
Here is a recent link to a thread on depression and mlc:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538981#Post2538981
I don't know if you read this particular thread, but it might prove helpful to you:
MLC thru the eyes of a visitor:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2532669#Post2532669
Thanks for the additional info Job! That link to the recent thread on depression and MLC is so helpful. I've kept that link up in an open browser tab since the thread was originally posted -- I keep going back and re-reading it.
Good points about the childhood issues. She and her mother have such a strained relationship -- always have since I've known my W. But I also know my W loves her mother very much and deep inside wishes that their R was better -- I just don't think either one really knows how to make it better... They went to JC last year to work on it and are now doing some more JC sessions... From what I can tell, her mom was controlling in the sense of being really wound tight about things around the house -- things had to be done a very specific certain way and there was an emphasis on being proper... not much room for being laid-back... One of the things my W has always loved about my family is that we are so laid-back... Christmas dinner at her mom's requires being dressed up (like in a suit), seating arrangements, etc. and Christmas dinner with my family is "come as you are" (jeans perfectly acceptable) with no formal time or seating arrangement. She's always said how much she enjoys my family's gatherings because they are so laid-back and fun with an emphasis on just hanging out and being comfortable while catching up with each other. Complete opposite of family gatherings with her mom.
It will be interesting to see how the immune system/illness thing evolves. Yes -- I am aware that I need to take good care of myself -- that became very clear immediately after BD and I went to my doctor as quickly as I could and have been trying to get enough exercise and do everything else necessary to stay healthy. But as for my MLCer W -- this is the first time she's been ill since BD, but I've been wondering when I might begin to see signs of compromised immune system because I know she isn't getting enough sleep and she is very stressed about EVERYTHING (work and what is happening with us at home). So many evenings now it seems the only thing she wants to do after we get the kids to bed is turn on the TV to watch one of her many DVR'd shows, start texting OW, and tune out the world until time to get up and go to work the next day. It truly is the most bizarre -- and sad -- thing to observe.
And yes, I know that I just have to let her go on her way with all of this. I am working hard on that -- it gets easier as each day passes. I'm actually okay with the idea of me moving out and being away from her -- my biggest concern is breaking this news to the kids and then disrupting their life with moving them back and forth between two different homes each week. Not looking forward to that -- but I know it has to be done in order for W to have the space she needs and to let her live the life she thinks she wants.
Yes -- I have read that post. It was very interesting, but also somewhat sad because I worry that my W might be one of those who never comes out of this... And that makes me sad for everyone in her life, but especially for our kids.
We none of us know what really happened with anyone's else's early years. Sometimes we suppress really painful stuff and it causes problems later on. One child may cope well with a controlling parent - another less so.
Not saying that a happy childhood is impossible!
We none of us know what really happened with anyone's else's early years. Sometimes we suppress really painful stuff and it causes problems later on. One child may cope well with a controlling parent - another less so.
Not saying that a happy childhood is impossible!
Good points. When I spoke to my mom on the phone last week she actually brought up something that happened between my dad and me when I was 24 that I DO NOT remember. I remember what happened before he came in the room, but I have absolutely no memory of him coming into the room and the interaction that my mother remembers. It wasn't overly traumatic (no abuse), but it was a moment that relates to my dad's inability to verbally express approval -- and what happened in that moment was me sharing some really good news with him and he was incapable of simply saying "Great job! I'm so proud of you!"
The point of that story is: I was 24 years old, it was an important moment, and I have actually NO memory of it. My mother remembers it vividly because she says she followed him into the next room after I left and confronted him about what he'd just done.
So yeah -- I understand that we can block things out -- and if we can do it as adults then we can surely do it as children as well.
Just an interesting observation about what happened this week... W discovered that I had confided in a close member of her family and this family member told others which resulted in a bad experience for W this past weekend where she felt judged and shunned by her immediate family members.
Prior to this happening, if you had asked me what I expected to happen when/if she found this information out, I would have said "Oh, I expect her to go into full-on Monster mode!"
But she didn't.
She seemed very hurt, but after we talked about it... She's just been fairly civil with me - a bit distant and not as friendly as last week... but civil... Not interpreting this as a positive sign towards reconciliation, but just observing that what I thought would happen did not happen... Of course, nothing makes sense in MLC and at some point she could go into monster-mode over this, but for now it hasn't happened.
And I just find that interesting.
Jer,
Please remember that many MLCers have some heightened paranoia and hate, hate to be judged. I almost pulled out of a family vacation at Martha's Vineyard with Ms. Wonka because I couldn't stand (and nearly couldn't handle) the notion of having 1,000 eye balls staring at me and watching every move I made.
This is why it is so important to not really talk about your sitch with W's family or your family lest the info finds its way to W. If it had happened to me, I would have probably gone into monster mode and froze out Ms. Wonka with the silent treatment for it would have felt a "betrayal" to me.
Careful there, my friend.
You're doing good in navigating through this quagmire.
Oh and I think I received some Divine intervention when I got very, very seriously sick in December 2003 where my late father had to carry me to the ER for some treatment. Sometime around March 2004, the MLC fog had lifted from me. In hindsight, I think the stress from my own MLC just caught me up and hit me right between the eyes over the holidays.
I do think a lot of MLCers' immune systems are compromised in some form. Good Lord, the pain and pressure we all feel during the crisis pales in comparison to the average person walking on a sidewalk in NYC
This is why it is so important to not really talk about your sitch with W's family or your family lest the info finds its way to W. If it had happened to me, I would have probably gone into monster mode and froze out Ms. Wonka with the silent treatment for it would have felt a "betrayal" to me.
Careful there, my friend.
Yeah -- had I known what I know now when all of this first started I might not have confided in this family member. But what's done is done... I can't take it back, but I can avoid doing any more damage by limiting what I say to her family members from here on out. I really am surprised that Monster didn't emerge once I admitted to it.
You're doing good in navigating through this quagmire.
Thanks. She really caught me off guard on Monday with this and I immediately thought I'd FUBARed royally with this. Of course, the civil, almost friendly behavior could all just be a mask to keep me off guard and to keep me under her control to some extent. I would not put that past her at this point -- I really don't trust anything she says or does right now.
Oh and I think I received some Divine intervention when I got very, very seriously sick in December 2003 where my late father had to carry me to the ER for some treatment. Sometime around March 2004, the MLC fog had lifted from me. In hindsight, I think the stress from my own MLC just caught me up and hit me right between the eyes over the holidays.
I do think a lot of MLCers' immune systems are compromised in some form. Good Lord, the pain and pressure we all feel during the crisis pales in comparison to the average person walking on a sidewalk in NYC
I can only imagine what kind of pain and pressure she is feeling inside. There have been fleeting moments when I feel as if I can actually see it all in her face... and it does make me feel sorry for her in spite of the pain she is causing me and the destruction she is bringing to our family.
I pray daily for some sort of divine intervention... nothing life-threatening, but something that helps her realize that what she has to work through is internal and not external... I know she has to continue on through the MLC and that I have my own journey that I need to continue on for now -- I clearly get that now and I don't want anything to interfere with the path that I am on right now because I really like where I am going... Do I want us to find our way back to each other? Absolutely! But it's very clear in my mind right now that neither one of us is prepared for that yet -- we both have a lot of work to do before that can happen... If it ever does.
Jer,
Thanks. She really caught me off guard on Monday with this and I immediately thought I'd FUBARed royally with this. Of course, the civil, almost friendly behavior could all just be a mask to keep me off guard and to keep me under her control to some extent. I would not put that past her at this point -- I really don't trust anything she says or does right now.
I want to disabuse you of the notion that your MLCer is an evil puppeter who decides one day she'll be nice, the other full-on monster mode, the day after a sulky teenager....etc. Nope. Not true. We don't plot out our behaviors and cackle out our evil laughter.
We are driven by emotions that has its origins from the internal pressure we feel intensely on top of some stressors. Those are the main reasons why some of our emotions swing from one extreme to another.
It wasn't a fun time for me. Neither for Ms. Wonka too.
Thanks for explaining that Wonka... It is hard to trust her at this point, but your perspective (from inside the mind of someone who has gone through MLC) does help.
I do want to believe the friendliness is sincere... I do want to believe that the tight hugs last Tuesday after our heart-to-heart and on Monday after our talk were authentic and sincere... I do want to believe that the tears are sincere... I do want to believe that when she tells me she does love me (but isn't "in love" with me) that it is real and sincere...
But I've seen her admit to others in writing that at least in the recent past she has faked a lot of what she's said and how she's acted towards me... And I've heard her on Skype or on the phone with OW saying really horrible things about me... And I've seen her lie to her own mother (repeatedly over the years) very convincingly...
So a part of me hopes everything is sincere, but another part of doesn't trust her at all. At least not right now...
I guess you could say that my W's MLC has put me into a place of heightened paranoia...
Okay need some advice...
Just got email from W about her having dinner with a friend tonight (long-time friend from college -- not OW) and when I replied I mentioned that I'd like to meet up with some friends for dinner tomorrow night.
Her reply back was "No problem. What time do you need to leave the house?" Which is not a big deal question -- she just needs to know so she can get home from work in time... But last question was "Who all are you meeting up with?"
So how am I supposed to respond? I said "some friends" in my first email to her... I'm really just meeting up with one friend, but don't want to say it's one friend because I don't want to give her the impression that it's a date (and it is NOT a date -- really is just dinner with a friend)... I'm thinking of just saying it's a couple of friends that I used to work with who I reconnected with recently at another friend's retirement party... but not name any names (which she wouldn't know anyway)...
Background: Prior to BD & MLC, my W has known all of my friends -- at least the people that I would do things with socially -- but now I really am reconnecting with some former colleagues who have become friends over time and who are available to hang out, have dinner, etc. But W has really never met these people because I never did anything socially with them until recently.
So if I don't name any names, will my response come across as if I am playing a game with her? Do I need to name some names, mention that we worked together previously, and leave it at that?
I really need some good advice on this... what is the best way to respond so that I can keep a little mystery around it but it doesn't come across that I am playing a game or being deceitful... or is that even possible to not come across that way with an MLCer who may be suspicious of my intentions or paranoid about what I might be doing behind her back?
I would be mysterious and just say "some friends" and leave it at that.
Jer,
I'd say, "Just friends from work. Have fun tonight!"
Whatever you respond, don't do it in the hopes of getting a certain reaction.
Okay -- will respond that way and leave it at that :-)
I know that my W can be jealous -- but OW is still in the picture and I do not expect my actions (going out to dinner with friends) to have any sort of "change of heart" reaction in my W. So no -- not expecting any sort of reaction. It is far too early for anything like that to happen, if it ever does... Just trying not to make any more mistakes on top of the ones I've already made.
And my choice to go out to dinner with this friend is just part of my GAL activity... Just need to get out of the house for an evening with a friend and not be around W.
Okay -- just replied back... We'll see what she says in response...
Had a rough day today for no apparent reason... Maybe it was the weather - started out super cold and rainy... I spent the morning feeling very depressed about everything...
After lunch I started to feel a little better, got some work done, did some more job search stuff, then headed over to the church to spend a little time in prayer... Didn't want to leave the church... Just felt so safe there... Felt like everything would be okay as long as I could stay sitting in that pew.
Obviously I didn't stay in the church because I'm not there right now. :-)
Hoping that tomorrow is a better day. Not sure why I was in such a funk this morning... I guess it was just one of those days.
Had a much better day today than yesterday... really must have been the weather... Today was still very cold, but also very sunny.
Today when I went by the church for some prayer time I felt like I had a very strong connection with God for some reason. Not sure why, but just felt like the prayer time was very meaningful today -- well, it's always meaningful and gives me some peace through all of this, but today it seemed more so.
W still has really bad upper respiratory infection going on -- not sure if it's that she's still sick or if Monster is on her way back, but she seemed rather moody this morning before leaving for work and I haven't heard much from her today. She also never replied back to my email response to her question about who I am going out to dinner with tonight.
On second thought, maybe it's just that she's still sick... she at least made an effort to make eye contact with me every time we interacted this morning and Monster rarely makes eye contact with me.
Oh well... Whatever...
Speaking of going out to dinner... Looking forward to getting out of the house this evening. Will definitely be nice to spend some time with my friend and relax a bit. And yes, I plan on looking my best when I leave the house tonight -- it may not matter to W, but then again, maybe it will matter to her... Either way, I plan on having a fun evening :-)
Had fun at dinner last night... Got home and W was asleep -- completely sacked out much earlier than she usually is. I wasn't sure what to think about that last night -- was hoping it was a sign of more depression (maybe a tiny sign that me being out last night did bother her), but today she doesn't seem tired or depressed at all.
Feeling very confused today. I keep praying for a miracle here, and while interactions with W today have been very civil, there is no change in the direction we are headed.
What I feel confusion over is that while I do hope and pray for reconciliation, I also had a lot of fun last night at dinner with my friend. Almost too much fun... Enough fun to wonder "what if..." -- but then my thoughts go towards God and I wonder why this friend would be coming in to my life right now... On an intellectual level I know that I need to just stay focused on me... The weakness in me does feel drawn to this friend and I know that I shouldn't be... And so I end up very confused... so very confused... This would all be so much easier if I could just see some tiny little signs that my W is feeling confused about her decisions, but she either isn't at all confused or she's hiding it really well... And while I do feel in my heart that God is working on our sitch and does want me to stand for my marriage, I am finding it hard to not let my thoughts drift to other possibilities... Even though I know that it is way too early for me to even consider any other possibilities because I am not in a place (emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically) to get involved with anyone other than my W (who clearly doesn't want me)...
I know the advice I'm going to hear from everyone here (especially Wonka) is stay the course and DO NOT give in to the temptation... to stay focused on working on myself... I know in my heart and soul that I do need to not give in... I just feel so weak right at the moment... so weak and confused...
Jer,
Your story reminds me of some great quotes from Paul Newman. It goes like this, paraphrasing here, when talking about marriage:
I am married, but not dead!Why go for the burgers when I have filet mignon at home? 
Good ones Wonka!
Yeah -- definitely not dead... BUT definitely prefer the filet mignon over the burgers... I just wish the filet mignon felt the same way and could/would reciprocate!
FYI -- reverse the scenario and I am definitely filet mignon to OW/burger (in so many, MANY ways...) -- just unfortunate that my W prefers fast food rather than fine dining right now...
And my response is quickly on its way to being nearly x-rated so I think I'll just stop there...
:-)
And my response is quickly on its way to being nearly x-rated so I think I'll just stop there...
:-)
Were you just about to veer off to the 'sushi on a naked female model's body' train of thought??!
It's all the rage out in California.
Were you just about to veer off to the 'sushi on a naked female model's body' train of thought??!
It's all the rage out in California.
Wasn't going to go there... but... well... wow... now there's a thought! ;-)
I think I need to start a new thread -- life just went to the twilight zone...
Just had two long and surreal conversations with W about her R with OW this afternoon and this evening... we are in such a weird place right now... I just did a lot of listening... and surprisingly felt no anger or bitterness and just a lot of peace about the entire situation...
We even laughed about her trip out of the country to visit OW...
We really had some very open and honest conversation about a lot of things -- beyond OW -- and I think we may be entering a new phase going forward... I guess what I feel right now, if things continue down this path, is that we are setting a strong foundation for any of the possible outcomes... If I don't get the miracle that I hope and pray for, then today was a very good beginning to being really good friends and co-parents... If I get the miracle I am hoping and praying for, today was a great "paving the way" foundation for us...
And for the first time -- at least right at the moment -- I feel really okay with any possible outcome...
And I can't explain why I feel that way because I certainly didn't feel that way yesterday or this morning.
I know I could feel completely differently tomorrow... But is this what it feels like to really be detaching? To feel as if I can really be okay with whatever happens? To be able to look at my W, listen to her talk about OW, and not feel the hurt and anger that I have felt in the recent past about all of this? To look at her, listen to all of that, and simply feel in that moment as if I were just listening to one of my friends talk about it?
God really must be working VERY hard on our situation for me to be where I am right at the moment...
Jer,
You only have 76 postings on this particular thread. You still have 24 postings before this thread will most likely lock. May I suggest that if things have gone to the twilight zone, that you change your subject line, i.e., like I just did when I responded to you.
I'm glad that you and your wife could sit down and have an open and honest conversation yesterday. Sounds like she was in a fairly good mood and was having some clarity. Hopefully this will continue...but you know, as well as we all know, today could be a different story.
You sound like you are detaching a bit if you aren't reacting to what was discussed. Try to keep the focus on you and the children. From your postings, I get the feeling that you are trying to analyze her every word or action. It's going to drive you nuts and you will be the one entering the twilight zone, if you aren't careful.
Hang in there!
Hi Job,
I was kinda joking about the new thread simply because things had taken such an odd turn.
I know things can change rapidly -- so far this morning she seems to still be in a good mood and comfortable talking to me.
Yes -- I am still analyzing her words and actions... so hard not to, but I know I need to stop doing that.
This week my big focus is on the job search -- I have an interview this week that I am hopeful will result in a positive outcome so I can move forward.
. But is this what it feels like to really be detaching? To feel as if I can really be okay with whatever happens? To be able to look at my W, listen to her talk about OW, and not feel the hurt and anger that I have felt in the recent past about all of this?
Yes! When you realize that life will go on, and you will be ok even if this relationship doesn't work out, and that this really isn't about you anyway - then you can come from a place of compassion for your partner, and hope for yourself going forward.
Just had two long and surreal conversations with W about her R with OW this afternoon and this evening... we are in such a weird place right now... I just did a lot of listening... and surprisingly felt no anger or bitterness and just a lot of peace about the entire situation...
We even laughed about her trip out of the country to visit OW...
We really had some very open and honest conversation about a lot of things -- beyond OW -- and I think we may be entering a new phase going forward... I guess what I feel right now, if things continue down this path, is that we are setting a strong foundation for any of the possible outcomes... If I don't get the miracle that I hope and pray for, then today was a very good beginning to being really good friends and co-parents... If I get the miracle I am hoping and praying for, today was a great "paving the way" foundation for us...
God really must be working VERY hard on our situation for me to be where I am right at the moment...
Jer
Ughh ... I remember a convo I had similar with W ... about OM and I had to just sit there, contain the anger and listen to her talk about thier R like I was just a friend. I gained some valuable insight .. but also some troubling things. She had shared OM was in love with her for about 4 years, (he was M at the time) that she never gave in till recently .. about how he was busy, did not want to take over my rold as S's father ... yanno .. all things you dont want to hear, but things that matter later. He was married when he was "in love" with my W, I was able to plant that seed asking what she thought would be different he wouldnt look elsewhere while with her, I still have no facts on why the breakup but I do know she stalked him a bit .. so guessing her crazy didnt help ... and I wonder if he is not a MLCr aswell ... 2 kids married over 10 years aswell. Not my circus .. not my monkeys
So you still have a connection, she still shares things with you ... these are good signs. The OW being non local I think has its blessings and its downfalls ... as hard as it is, that R needs to run its course and I think not being right there all the time will just take a bit longer imho.
Hang in there, you sound great and are handling this very well.
I remember a convo I had similar with W ... about OM and I had to just sit there, contain the anger and listen to her talk about thier R like I was just a friend. I gained some valuable insight .. but also some troubling things.
Yes -- as soon as she started talking I instantly knew that I needed to just listen and not shut her down... even though I did have to hear some things that did make me feel uncomfortable. She did ask me to tell her if I started to feel uncomfortable about any topic and she would stop. I told her I would, but never stopped her even though a few things did hurt. I just knew and still feel very strongly that listening to her was the most important thing I could do yesterday.
So you still have a connection, she still shares things with you ... these are good signs.
But up until this weekend, she wasn't sharing much with me... So I feel like this is some progress. Not necessarily progress towards certain reconciliation -- but progress towards something... If nothing else, just a reconnection and perhaps her ability to trust me and feel safe talking to me again. Still such a long road ahead, but I'll take any teeny tiny bit of progress as it comes.
The OW being non local I think has its blessings and its downfalls ... as hard as it is, that R needs to run its course and I think not being right there all the time will just take a bit longer imho.
I agree -- it does need to run its course. I won't share everything she shared with me yesterday re: OW and the R, but let's just say there are a number of obstacles in their way (aside from the geographical distance) and while they both feel "drawn" to each other, a future together is a longshot and they both know it. So of course I am praying very hard for those obstacles to continue to grow so that this runs its course quickly.
In the meantime, I'll do my best to be her friend and be willing to listen when she feels like opening up to me.
Hang in there, you sound great and are handling this very well.
Thanks! Still having up and down moments, but definitely starting to feel more optimistic about the future for me and the kids. :-)
Keep the positive thoughts and prayers coming... Interview for a job tomorrow!
In other news from the wacky world of this MLC... The OW and I have exchanged some friendly emails... I still don't condone what is going on and have made it clear that the situation is not what I want, but I know this has to just play itself out (and will in time) so I am being somewhat "friendly"... And OW is coming to visit in June... The logistics of that are still uncertain, but the trip has been booked.
I can't even begin to go into all of the details of the recent conversations or the emails between OW and myself... I wouldn't believe any of it if this weren't my life. I will say that the email exchange was initiated by me with the intent of getting to know OW before she meets or begins to interact with my kids.
For now I'm playing nice, but praying very hard for more obstacles and a huge miracle. I do feel like I am becoming more detached... which is good because it is very clear to me now that this really is going to be a long marathon.
Back to me -- REALLY looking forward to the job interview tomorrow. A tiny bit nervous because it's been years since I went on a real interview... for many years my job moves didn't really involve formal interviews because nearly all of them occurred through networking or open transfer periods within the school district. What I'm not nervous about is my knowledge, skills, and abilities -- I'm actually somewhat over-qualified for the position I'm interviewing for tomorrow but the person interviewing me will really be looking at where she can put me rather than focusing on this specific job. Just need to get back into the district soon...
Jer,
I can't even begin to go into all of the details of the recent conversations or the emails between OW and myself... I wouldn't believe any of it if this weren't my life. I will say that the email exchange was initiated by me with the intent of getting to know OW before she meets or begins to interact with my kids.
Why would you want that??!! I am puzzled here. Can you please explain a bit more about your thought process? Heck, I wouldn't touch the OW with a 100-foot pole.
Hey...I do know that you'll ace that interview and land a job. You'll charm the pants off of the interviewer.
^^ X2
Especially if your W finds out ... anything that goes south will now be all your fault because you meddled ... regardless of what happens ... I would back completely out of any talks with OW ... keep your side of the street clean. If your W exposes kiddos to OW, that's all on her and her business given they are safe, I had the same thing .... as the lyrics go .. I wouldn't shake OM's hand with a broke hand.
I'll try to explain the best way that I can without giving up too much detail...
First -- CaliGuy -- W knows. She was agreeable to it...
We are trying to work out a co-parenting agreement. One of the things that I included in the co-parenting agreement (as a talking point and a bargaining chip) was a clause about a timeframe for introducing the kids to new partners and when new partners could sleep over with the kids present. W completely disagreed with this clause and most recently started speaking to me about OW in terms of her new R and how, because of the distance, meeting in person would be difficult, blah, blah, blah... To make a long story short -- we have ended up with email as an option for getting to know each other before OW visits in June and meets the kids.
Again -- my W engaging in A with OW is NOT what I want, but I see some benefits right now to opening up this dialogue... W is letting down her guard a bit with me... opening up to me more about a lot of stuff (maybe because I seem to be more accepting of the sitch and not as judgmental towards her -- not sure, but that's my guess)... And, if OW gets to know me better then it could be harder to believe the negative things W has said about me in past few months (which contradicts all the wonderful things she told OW about me before the end of October). I do not think this is going to lead to any immediate miracle -- but right now it appears that it is causing W to be much more open with me and that is an improvement over the secrecy, lies, and deception that I've been dealing with over the past several months. No, I still don't trust my W, but the atmosphere at home has improved quite a bit...
Yes -- writing the email and then reading her response was a bit weird -- but there is so much about this entire situation that is so freaking weird... Most of the time I can't believe this is my life right now. It just feels surreal. I don't want OW in our lives at all -- but she isn't a bad person... she's just a young, inexperienced woman who has no clue what she is really involved in with my W... a young, inexperienced woman making a poor choice right now... I haven't told her all of that, but I am hopeful that she will eventually realize it -- or be told that by her family and/or friends when she finally tells them that she is involved with my W (which she is planning to do at some point in the next several months). And yes -- that means that she is not "out" to anyone in her life except to my W (and me)... So many different ways in which that hurdle can derail everything at some point in the near future.
I know this probably still doesn't make much more sense... The email communication just seems to make sense on a very intuitive level right now for my particular sitch -- but it might not be the right thing for others to do in other sitchs.
Hey...I do know that you'll ace that interview and land a job. You'll charm the pants off of the interviewer.
LOL -- thanks for the vote of confidence! I do hope I am charming enough to get the job...
...as for charming the pants off of someone... Well, I'll be sure to update at some point in the future when my W thinks I'm that charming again!
I think emailing her and being cool with her is a brilliant strategy. I cant bring myself to do it. I thought of email my exh ow and meeting her for coffee cause she hangs with my kids but I just couldn't do it.
Your accessment of their youth and inexperience and making a poor choice is right on. I think the ow my exh is with will enventually break up with him because eventually she will grow up and he never will. We'll see.
Good luck on the interview. Knock em dead
Thanks BklynMom -- I will admit that this was a very risky move and I would certainly advise "do not try this at home"... It really depends on a bunch of factors very specific to my situation... And it still might backfire on me. So far, it hasn't... Keeping my fingers crossed that 1) it doesn't backfire, 2) the obstacles keep increasing for them, and 3) this dies out in the near future...
Up early printing out extra copies of my CV and CV summary (one-pager)... Looking forward to the interview -- my qualifications are extensive -- the only thing needed now is the perfect spot for me in a great leadership position that pays very well :-)
I want to take a moment to talk about my job sitch... As I sit here at my computer, having my coffee and getting mentally prepared for my interview later this morning, I am reflecting on some things about myself...
After the birth of our third child I really thought I could get enough online work and consulting to replace the full-time income that I was earning with the school district. My W agreed to the idea -- we both liked the idea of one of us working from home and having the flexibility to handle everything related to having three very young children.
For the first couple of years this worked just fine. But then the work started to drop off and despite my best efforts at applying everywhere I could (for online work), it just wasn't happening... The past couple of years have been horrible... I just figured up my 2014 income and it was about half of my 2013 income! No wonder we've been hurting so much financially over the past year.
But aside from the financial concerns -- which certainly added a lot of stress to our M -- there has also been some issue for me in terms of self-esteem.
As I sit here thinking about the interview that I will have in a few hours, I am actually really excited about the possibility of being back in a full-time position. Several months ago, despite the financial bind, I dreaded the thought of going back to something full-time because I was so comfortable in the flexible work-from-home lifestyle... I was comfortable in it even though it was no longer working for me/us (sounds bit like how we all become comfortable in our marriages even though we may have gone into a rut that doesn't work for either spouse, right?) Several months ago my head was in a very different place... Now, for many reasons, but especially because of my W's MLC, I've been jarred awake and realize that I need to be working full-time -- engaging with people, helping people learn and grow, pushing myself to learn more within my profession, and getting back to a place where I feel like I am impacting more lives with my work. It's a big part of who I am and I lost that over the years...
So there is a lot riding on this job interview... Not that my world will crumble if I don't get hired, but I do know this is a vital part of my personal journey and if I don't get hired for this position then I'll just keep applying for others until I do get something.
Just had to get those thoughts out there as they popped into my head :-) (Yep -- coffee is kicking in now!)
Good luck today. It's nice to work from her once in a while, but when you do it full time, you don't have that interaction w/your co-workers and people in general. I hope you get the position and it will not only provide more $$$ but also help w/your self esteem and give you something else to think about.
Best. interview. of. my. life!
Way overqualified for the position, but lead interviewer is sending my stuff on to two other people with strong recommendation that they bring me on in some capacity very soon.
To say I knocked it out of the ballpark is an understatement!
Jer,
High Five!!!!
Way to go, girl!
High Five back atcha!!! :-)
Feels great -- really does... Definitely a step in the right direction for me personally.
Congrats Jer.
I'd wish you luck but I believe we each make our own luck.
Congrats Jer.
I'd wish you luck but I believe we each make our own luck.
Thanks Jack!
And that is such a great point... the ONLY reason this interview went so well is because of the many decisions and choices I have made over the span of my career that led me to a variety of experiences through which I have developed a comprehensive set of knowledge and skills. Throughout my career I have created a pretty darn good "package" and I bring a ton of value to the table -- and I know it. It's not luck -- it's the result of making the right choices, choosing some difficult challenges at times, embracing every opportunity to be a leader, reflecting on my own successes and failures and being able to discuss those with great insight, and being very confident in who and what I am professionally. :-)
Not trying to be arrogant -- not at all... I am just very aware of what my professional profile looks like and I know it's a very attractive package. I've worked very hard to make it so.
*giggles ... you said you have an "attractive package"
Ok congrats on the first step to the new you!!
I read here today about the outlook our spouses have on us in regards to working ... I think this will be nothing more than another reason for her to take another look at Jer 2.0 ... I had a similar thing, basically under employed, my reasons were logical... I had to remain in my job as she bounced around and tried her hand in many areas, once she landed a great job, all the sudden all eyes were on me as if I was just sleeping on the couch for 10 years, she forgot when the market crashed it was me supporting the family, working 2 jobs as she was out for over a year. MLC Monster let me know how badly she wanted vacations during this time.
Anyways ... I think this is nothing short of great for you, will bring and build confidence ... you go gurl!
*giggles ... you said you have an "attractive package"
I did! And -- I meant it... in more ways than one ;-)
(Hey -- W's MLC caused me to lose nearly 30 lbs. and I do work out -- My "package" ain't too bad for a 44 year old... One day W might wake up and realize that!)
Ok congrats on the first step to the new you!!
I read here today about the outlook our spouses have on us in regards to working ... I think this will be nothing more than another reason for her to take another look at Jer 2.0 ... I had a similar thing, basically under employed, my reasons were logical... I had to remain in my job as she bounced around and tried her hand in many areas, once she landed a great job, all the sudden all eyes were on me as if I was just sleeping on the couch for 10 years, she forgot when the market crashed it was me supporting the family, working 2 jobs as she was out for over a year. MLC Monster let me know how badly she wanted vacations during this time.
Anyways ... I think this is nothing short of great for you, will bring and build confidence ... you go gurl!
Thank you so much. Yes -- while there is no job offer in hand (YET), just the interview today has been a huge boost to my confidence... Good things are on the horizon for me :-)
And hey -- if this does cause W to take a second look at Jer 2.0 then yay! Super bonus points for Jer! :-)
And hey -- if this does cause W to take a second look at Jer 2.0 then yay! Super bonus points for Jer! :-)
And hey if Jer's W is worthy of Jer. Super bonus points for Jer's wife.
Jer, YOU are the prize here. Not her. Get it?
Jer, YOU are the prize here. Not her. Get it?
Oh yeah -- I get it... I've got a lot going for me -- good person, great mom, well respected (locally and nationally -- even internationally within a small circle) professionally, and a great catch for someone... And I'm doing a lot to work on myself to make all of that even better. I am going to be just fine no matter what... And I certainly deserve to be treated much better than I have been over the past several months. Not saying I'm perfect and that I didn't contribute to some of the problems we had in our M/R, but I'm not the one who gave up and went off the deep end into a crazy MLC.
I get it. :-)
Congratulations on knocking that interview out of the ball park! I hope you get an offer this week.
Congratulations on knocking that interview out of the ball park! I hope you get an offer this week.
Thanks! Did you hear the crack of the bat from where you are? It was VERY loud! :-)
Jer ... new Thread time .. I have that post you asked about and will reply on your new thread. (Don't want it nuked ...lol)