Old thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2494902&page=11So I have been good at fighting myself not to fix things. My youngest has not gone down to be with her mother this weekend. I have not asked why or what is going on. I keep telling myself that their relationship is between them. I have a strong feeling about what is going on, but won't give into it because it is speculation and mind reading on my part. I will just continue to be the stable place for my daughter. I figure what ever is happening will come to a head or my daughter will just choose to not have much interaction with ex. I do feel bad about daughter, but have to allow her to have her space until she chooses to open up about what is bothering her.
Ayep, Life. Their relationship to forge. Your job is to cause no harm to it.
I know it's hard to watch.
You are doing great.
So, ex called. Asked in a roundabout way if I or others were saying bad things about her to cause youngest to not want her. I asked her if I was doing that would I be keeping her informed of my own concerns and heads up to issues. So she backed down on that line of questioning. I did asked daughter if she wanted to talk to her mother and she flat out refused. So, I told wife that her relationship between her and daughter was between them to work out. Wife indicated she did not know what to do if daughter was going to throw up a wall between them. I hope wife will consider her part in this and what issues it has caused.
Hey LT. That is a hard spot. And the easiest thing for the mlcer to do is blame you. They are so unaccountable and in their head, everything was going to work out fine. I and for me, xh always expected everyone to just go along with his shenanigans.
Now that my kids can "tolerate" him in small bits, he is jumping right back to his old ways. But, its not really a r with the kids, you know. Taking them to a drive through a couple times a month, or spending a couple of hours together once a month, or texting good night is not being a parent.
I think you are doing the right thing, just staying out of it. I hope your d had someone to talk to or confide in. It is tough stuff for these kiddos.
It is unfortunate that they don't see their actions really affecting their kids. But how could they? It does not go along with their instant needs. And, like a teenager, it is very selfish, unaccountable thinking. It is everyone else, not them.
Hi Mighty,
Yes she has someone to talk to. I will have to talk to her IC about what is happening and what I suspect is causing her to not want to have anything to do with her mother right now. My suspicion is ex is probably trying to date. I don't know how she can't figure out that if she has two nights with her daughter that those nights are not good nights to leave her at the apartment alone why she gives her attention to someone else. I agree it is the teenage mind set where they are completely selfish and cant see how things affect others.
Life is finally starting to turn around. I have been away from real life for since June 2014. Like all of us I had family stuff that needed to get cleaned up. The time off also gave me a lot of time to consider what my future will be. The first part of the new me starts next Monday. I am starting a new job. I am only considering this a stepping stone in my forward plans. I have decided long term that I don't want to work for anyone but myself. To do this I do need a source of income to get things off the ground. I plan on selling my house as soon as I can get it completed. I have my eyes on another house with an out building in which I can start my own business. This will give me an opportunity to follow and develop my own dreams rather than for other people. Its a big decision, but if I don't try I will always wonder.
LT- That is awesome! You sound great! I am excited for you to take these steps. It can be scary and overwhelming... but something to dive into and to be proud of. Exciting stuff! Good for you!
.... and that's what its all about.... (clap along with the "Hokey Pokey"!)
My first week of work is now behind me. I feel much more comfortable now. I can see their expectations are much lower at this point that those I set for myself. I feel great to be where I can contribute to some success.
I have had an interesting week with my ex. On Sunday she tm me and asked if I could drop our dog off when I went out to dinner with my daughters and picked up after. I asked if she wanted the dog earlier. I ended up dropping the dog off early in the afternoon. We talked for a few minutes. I think she is feeling lonely when no one is around. this is interesting as she used to say that her happiest time was when she had her own apartment just to herself. I guess this time around its rather lonely.
Later in the week she thanked me via TM for forwarding some emails from my youngest school. This is the first time she has said thank you to me since this whole thing stated two years ago. It was nice that she acknowledge something.
I won't read into anything my wife says or does. I just observe and I don't react. I do wonder if these may be some signs of her poking her head out of the tunnel to test the water. I am glad I don't have the time now to dwell on this. It will just have to take what ever direction it does.
LT,
Glad the work week went well:) Sounds like you have some great things going on. Keep it up!
Thanks GB,
Week two at new job is off to a good start. I think things will work out while I formalize and solidify my own personal plans.
TMs with ex are interesting. I can see her opening up in them and then suddenly realizing she is having a conversation with me and catching herself. I think she still has issues reconciling this with the way she has tried to portray me. She still has much work to do on herself. I don't push it nor expect much. life moves on.
I can see her opening up in them and then suddenly realizing she is having a conversation with me and catching herself. I think she still has issues reconciling this with the way she has tried to portray me. She still has much work to do on herself. I don't push it nor expect much. life moves on.
It's funny, but that struck a chord with me. Why? Because it was something I had noticed with my ex. Every time she started down that path of communicating and opening up, it was like she caught herself and changed direction. Until I stopped participating in the conversations. Then they became weirder
I know you know how this stuff works. Just commenting.
Glad the job is going well!
AJ
Hi Everyone,
Its been a few weeks since last I talked about my own situation.
Work is settling in. I do have my concerns about the job. They have an interesting product. The problem is that the company has not ever formalized any procedures or processes. The ownership seems to be starting to recognize this. They are starting to bring in new people like me to try and get this straightened out. In the mean time there have been people let go and others who have left. I am going to try and make lemonade from lemons. I hope that my efforts to implement changes will be recognized in full time hiring and or maybe even a higher position than where I am right now.
I have begun to work on the house again. I am hoping to get a lot done in the next 2 to 3 months and maybe get it on the market.
My girls are still going through different issues related to my wifes issues and the divorce. I still continue to be their rock. I am amazed at the things they now bring to me rather than their mother.
On the ex front I get a text here and there and then a pull back and quiet again. I continue to be myself and do what is right.
Today I started something new for myself. I went out to a local dinner to have breakfast. I plan on doing this once or twice a weekend. Just sitting there and listening to other people is great and a step to getting a life for myself outside of work , house, and kids.
I hope everyone has a great holiday weekend. Remember this is the season of rebirth. Hopefully we can all find ours.
I like your idea of breakfast out. I think I am not quite ready to eat out alone. The idea of a diner sounds like a good place to start.
I have to admire you for being a rock for your girls LT. Sounds like you are doing really well.
I always wonder if I am handling things correctly as they come up. Case in point was yesterday. My oldest car was making banging noises and other noises. She asked me to fix it for her. So, I dug into it and found that her rear braking system was falling apart. Bolts had fallen out and other parts were frozen and no longer any good. Long and short was I spent $300.00 on parts alone to fix it. During the time I was working on it my youngest shows up with middle sister to get a check for horseback riding lesson. These had been hit or miss all winter,so could not really plan on when they would happen. I had also asked ex to discuss paying for this jointly as per agreement without any response a few weeks earlier. Since i was out of extra cash I asked daughter to see if her mother could cover it. She left to go to lesson. Later I get phone message from ex that it was a really low thing I did, etc. I really felt this needed to be corrected immediately so gave her a call. I explained to her that before she jumps to conclusions she should ask some questions first. I told her that I had spent a great deal on the car for daughter that morning. I also told her that I had asked the girls to ask if she could cover it. I told her that we needed to communicate more about expenses so that things would be clearer. I felt at times like I was talking to a child since an adult should be asking a few questions before jumping off the deep end and accusing someone of something that was out of character for that person. I think I handled it correctly and hopefully set a boundary.
How did she react after you explained the situation? They always go on the defensive and think we are out to get them any way that we can...unfortunately, it's usually the other way around and they expect us to pay for quite a lot.
I think you did the right thing. Your xw needed to know that you had already spent quite a bit of money repairing your daughter's car and that expenses needed to be discussed in the future. If you set a boundary...adhere to it.
I think I took the wind out of her sails. She backed right down and said she did not realize that. I said I told the kids why I was asking them to ask her to pay this time. She said they had not told her. I responded that I was not surprised. She agreed that they had not communicated things. I told her if she opened up to more communication then things like this wouldn't happened. Time will tell. The call did end pleasantly.
So, maybe the fact she backed down and did not go on the defensive was a good sign.
I'm glad the call ended well. Sometimes you just never know how they are going to react when it comes to money issues. Continue to work on the communications. The more you remain calm and even toned, the better.
Well done!
I don't know if anyone has run into this before. There have been a few times my ex w has asked for help on something. When I have gone to her apartment if my youngest is there she gets very hostile and constantly asks are you done yet, you can leave now. She even gets nasty with her mother. is this her way of responding to the divorce? Does she think she is protecting her mother some how? I don't understand her nastiness to both of us. She is 15 years old going on 16 next month.
An almost 16 year old, who's parents are divorced, acting hostile to her parents?? Are you asking if that's normal? Or expected?
I think that's what I hear you asking.
I would imagine some of it is that. I suspect some of it is also being a teen and when they see their parents acting like two kids, becomes the "adult" in their mind.
I know my daughter did. Proceed cautiously though right? I know when I put a stop to her trying to parent me, it did not end as I had hoped
What does she become nasty about? What does she attack you with?
Some of that is normal as well. i.e. if you and ex were still in the same house and married (a stable platform for a child), she still might act similarly as a way to break away from being a child. There are healthy ways to do this and not so healthy ways and they look to the parents to guide them through it.
AJ
Hi AJ,
I don't see it as her trying to parent. I see a deep seated anger coming from her. It gets real ugly when she sees her mother and I even exchange two words. God forbid we interact like two adults carrying on a conversation. Yesterday I was setting up a computer for the ex. This can take time when you are removing programs, loading anti virus software, etc. Ex hung around rather than disappear as usual. We were carrying on a small conversation and ex was sharing things that were going on in her life. I felt this was good. Daughter hung around, kept interrupting to ask am I done yet, got nasty, told mom to shut up and go away, etc. I keep getting the distinct feeling that daughter is feeling that if we are going to be divorced that we should not interact. Kinda like if we are going to ruin her life then we should not be allowed around each other. She has also gotten nasty with her grandfather lately and he has noticed as well.
Its been an interesting week for me. Communications with the ex have taken some turns, but seem to be improving. I have been setting the record straight with her when ever she reacts wrong to something rather than turning the other cheek. It seems to be helping to clear the air. She has started to actually share some information about things going on with in her life. Her aunt died and she was telling me how after her divorce she went on to have male friends and also traveled a great deal. I found it interesting that she would bring this up. It felt to me like she was trying to talk her self into how great things are going to be for her. It feels like she is trying to prop up her decisions. I suspect there may be some level, deep down, where she might be starting to question what she has done. I don't know if this is a normal part of the process? I still continue to be the person I am becoming. I continue to be the best father I can be even if it kills me. I continue to move forward and hope to have at least a reasonable relation with her.
Does a mlcer subconsciously start to question their decisions before they openly question them? Is it out of fear to face what they have done that they try to prop themselves up? Is this a common stage of the process?
LT,
Yes, they do begin to question their decisions. In some cases, if the LBS can sit quietly and just listen, you will hear the MLCer think things over out loud. They don't even realize that they are doing it. I don't think at this time it's fear of what they've done, but rather just trying to rationalize in their fuzzy minds why they've done certain things. I do think that fear does come into play when they begin to reach out to the people that they distanced themselves from at the beginning of the crisis. They fear rejection and being judged by others. They fear that the LBS will constantly remind them of what they've done, thus many MLCers will not return for that reason. It's a lot of work for both the MLCer and the LBS and some can't move beyond the destruction and, of course, trust issues.
Yes, it is a very common stage in the process. BTW, they questions themselves throughout the process...but what they do w/the answers...well, they attempt to shut off the thinking process by continuing on w/the replay activities or finding things to keep their minds focused on that particular thing. Being alone or at night is the worse time for them because that is when the thought processes go into over drive for them.
Continue to sit quietly, listen to what she has to say and offer no advice unless she asks for it.
You've been doing a great job! Continue moving forward.
What I find so hard to do is to see the forest through the trees in my own situation. I suspect this is true for all of us who are going through this. It is easy to see what other people are doing and give advice and encouragement. But in my own case I question what I am doing and is it effective. I also question at times continuing. I feel that not only am I dealing with the ex, but also the negative influence of her family and even my own girls. I know they all think they are helping her and defending her, but don't realize the results will probably not be what they want.
Thanks job
Life,
I break down MLC basically into 4 categories.
1) Totally believes what they are doing without much concern to anything else in their way.
2) Feels there is something wrong, but can't quite put their finger on it. Will show a little clarity ocassionally but still basically lost.
3) Knows their is something wrong and searches for the tools. Will find some tools that help themselves but not the internal strength to steer them out of the tunnel.
4) Knows something is wrong, acquires the tools and does the hard work to get to the other side.
Lets use simple math then 1/4 make it, thats 25%. I think that number is still high for MLC but it gives us a clue about how hard this journey is.
I understand how hard it is to access your own situation. and yes you are dealing with an ex, her family and then the kids and negative influence. I think it just human nature for family to stand behind whatever they do and so it seems they perpetuate her journey in a negative way just by the indifference.
The only thing I can add about MLC and this was just in my own case. I wanted to make it out. I didn't want to be this way for the rest of my life. It felt like a do or die situation to me. I don't know if all MLC'ers feel that way or not.
I've read your threads. You have a firm grasp of your situation. You are a model of what we are supposed to be in life. I know at times that can seem hollow. Sometimes we have to hang on to that one grain of sand in life that is leading us in the right direction. I hear your struggle, all I can say is that I think you are moving in the right direction.
Mirage
Mirage,
Don't mean to hijack LT but I have a question. The ones that runaway and practically vanish - Do you think it is b/c they are categories 1 or 2?
I want to stand for my marriage but honestly not sure if in reality H will ever find his way back. H walked out and still won't admit he is living with OW. He treats D's as detached as he treats me. It is bizarre.
Just wondering and sorry to hijack.
Gwen (apologies for threadjack) but a good while back someone identifed MLCers in their early stages as either Dropouts (vanishers) Drop-ins - those who stay at home pretty much throughout the crisis (or would if not sometimes ejected by their exasperated spouse), and Droplets who come and go/stay in intermittent contact - again if permitted.
My xh was a vanisher. Now he is in sporadic contact with me - so who knows?? It is out of our control that is for sure.
I guess the word that keeps sticking out is X. That is the struggle for me but you are right that we have no control.
Gwen - in his head I suspect my xh isn't really divorced from me. Hard to explain and I probably sound delusional!
Gwen,
Life, I'll answer this one question since it was asked so this gets back to being your thread.
I think your H fits in category one. Running away and vanishing is typical. Who would want to turn around and see the destruction they have caused.
I think it was Job that hit on the late at night thing. I think all MLC'ers have visits by their demons late into the night....I know I did!! The category 1's have a way of numbing it and then keep running.
It's been 5 + years since my EXW ran from me and our kids after a 24 year marriage and what I thought was a closenit family unit. I would label my journey bizarre, but then again I lived bizarre from the MLC side as well. I do have empathy for MLC'ers. It's not a mind you would want to visit.
NOW back to Life's thread.
Mirage
Hiya!
I wanted to chime in from my own perspective as a former MLCer.
2) Feels there is something wrong, but can't quite put their finger on it. Will show a little clarity ocassionally but still basically lost.
Yep...that was me. Just had the niggling feeling that something was off, but couldn't or wasn't able to put a finger on as to why something was wrong with me.
Job hit the bull's eye here:
They fear rejection and being judged by others. Big time!!! B-I-G time. I hated having 1,200 eyeballs pointed in my direction dissecting every movement I made. This was one of the reasons why I nearly did not go on a family vacation with Ms. Wonka and her family at Martha's Vineyard during the height of my own MLC.
When the MLCer speaks to you, they're trying to figure out WTH happened to them. Sometimes they'll be all over the map with their thought process as they try to sort themselves out at the coming out of the tunnel stage. Can't really blame them at all for their reference point is hazy at best.
It is during this stage that it is extremely critical that you be very patient and gentle with the MLCer coming out of the tunnel. You don't want to spook them with judgments and why's or "how could you's"!
It takes a LONG, LONG time before they're able to see things clearly and come to terms with what happened. For me, I think it took me about two years to fully understand my own MLC and accept that part of my journey. It was a part of my life story. Doesn't mean that there's right or wrong to the story.
BTW, they questions themselves throughout the process...but what they do w/the answers...well, they attempt to shut off the thinking process by continuing on w/the replay activities or finding things to keep their minds focused on that particular thing. Being alone or at night is the worse time for them because that is when the thought processes go into over drive for them.
This is it! Seems like my H is doing exactly this, shutting off the thinking process and continuing with replay activities. And this crazy woman he got close to recently, is for keeping his mind distracted when he is alone.
LT, I’m glad I stopped by you thread. There is so much good information. I agree with others, you are doing great.
I don't mind the hijack as these are all questions that we all have. When it happens a lot of good information comes out like has happened here. Its kind like a group hug happens where everyone gets a bit of satisfaction out of it.
A good conversation to be sure. It can be helpful to get the thoughts out, and I agree with you LT, it's easier to see other people's situations than one's own. That was one of the crazy parts back then. Watching the ex give marital advice to others while having affairs and living in her crazy head. One of the really interesting things at the time was the inability to be alone. It was crazy watching all the frenetic energy being put into not being alone and "living the good life." It all seemed like a big distraction from my POV. A duality of watching other's lives while destroying her own. It was odd to be sure.
And the conversations over the years. Sheesh. Talk about a jumble of mixed up hodge podge of junk. It was like watching a sewer clear itself out after a storm.
Could have just as easily been me, I'm sure. I have a deep compassion for the pain I saw. It's one reason I chose not to retaliate tit for tat. The relationship was over long before I saw the writing on the wall, and I knew it at the time I became aware.
Things began to change when I started standing up for the crazy. I did notice that. I noticed that she was soooooo angry, that her eyes literally changed when she would spew. Different colors and really big and dilated. Like a Jekyll and hyde sort of thing.
Years later, she hated that I called her by two different names. She eventually noticed that I referred to her by her formal name vs. the name I had always called her.
The funny part to me was watching her new H (OM) start to take on her anger as her's dissipated. Or rather transferred to him. In some ways, it was like she was working out her issues by transferring the to him or encouraging his own. Hard to say as I don't know either of them, but it's what it seems like.
All of that to say I wouldn't be in that head for all the rice in China. And it was obvious to see the thinking she was doing. The questioning of "why?" For all intents and purposes, she tried really hard to make it about me. I'm not perfect by any stretch, but she tried really hard after she left. She barely remembers half of that stuff in more recent conversations (year ago now?) And there's still the odd emails etc. that show up from time to time. Even that's changed come to think of it. Like she is becoming a person again. Which honestly was the only thing I could really hope for - that she'd become a whole person again vs. the fragmented wreck that left.
It's a bizarre trip to say the least. At least from where I saw it up close. One I wouldn't wish on anyone and I firmly believe they do need a friend that knows their past, at some point to finish their trip through la la land. I've seen her clumsily try a few things that have made me think that. <shrug> Who really knows though, right?
AJ
AJM,
I like commenting on others as well. It always seems more clear.
I have no relationship at all with my EXW. Occassionally I will have to e-mail something relevant about our children and I always take the high road as far as being neutral. The kids(2 adults) know that there relationship with their mother is on them. I don't always get neutral back, still some anger 5 + years later.
Yesterday, I was out enjoying myself playing tennis. My daughter went to her Great grandmothers house as they were cleaning it out as she was going to assisted living. Now her mother was there. Her mother(EXW) has not been in her grandmothers life for about 5 years since voicing her disapproval about her choices. EXW cut her out of her life at that time.
Anyhow, My daughter comes home with a box of pictures and such.
Me: What were you doing?
Daughter: Cleaning out Great Grandma's house
Me: I see you got some stuff
Daughter shows me pics of her mother when she was young and how identical they looked.
Daughter: Mom gave me this picture and said make sure you show this to your father.(our wedding picture)(It was always up at Great Grandmas house) (My daughter and I went there often, she was a wonderful loving person)
Me: (smile) a little odd huh!
Daughter: (Laughs) still strange Dad!
Mirage
What I really take away from all this is that until the MLCer can resolve their anger there is no chance of moving forward. I suspect most MLCers have had long issues with forgiving even before they entered this relationship with us. My ex held a grudge against her father the whole time we were together. I suspect I have now inherited this grudge. I don't believe they will ever get well unless they can work through this issue with themselves.
Life,
I agree, the issues are deep rooted and so.....they take a long time to be wrestled with, if they are ever wrestled with. Sometimes the easier answer is to keep running. There are a lot of bright lights and shiny new things to keep the delusion going.
The good thing is if we do the work on the back end our life is better and therefore we make better father's, mother's, friends etc. The silver lining does exist.
Life, looking at your life as it stands now would you want it any other way?
Mirage
Yes, and that's what I am working on. I also could have done without her attempting suicide. That's a scar my girls will live with for a long time.
LT/Mirage, that's exactly why I post such things. So that others can see it and not feel so alienated.
For me, that was the hardest part. The feeling alienated. I did it to myself in many ways. And so to I was able to fix that area of my life. That was in my control.
And yeah, it continues for eons it seems. From what I've experienced, the end of a normal relationship ends with goodbye. With somebody like this...well, not so much. I suspect it has to do with addiction (addicted to something, not necessarily pharma products) and replacing that addiction. It feels that way sometimes. I think it also has a lot to do with missing a large chunk of their life due to the episode. I know watching mine, she seemed to shatter. Literally I described it as if she broke her self into a thousand pieces and was putting the pieces back together, but they didn't seem to fit quite right. Wipe it out, try again. Rinse. Repeat. Enter the OP and things got complicated while she was reforming. I think that caused a loss of a lot of memories due to rewriting them. Nobody wants to be the villain in their own story, right?
As you pointed out, mirage - would you want it any other way? I wouldn't. I love my life.
Like you LT, I would have preferred less damage to the kids. But at the same time, I know it could have been worse and I know that life is messy - I've spent a great deal of time and energy helping the kids to deal with what they saw. I don't regret a moment of it.
Can't stop it. Nothing you say or do will change what they do. Can't control it or fix it. And that's part of the point I think
AJ
Life,
I don't tell many people this because it was/is a part of my life and people really don't need to know.
My only sibling, twin brother committed suicide. He left my two nephews without a father.
For me, it was the learning experience of a lifetime. I watched an individual who could not get negativity out of his mindset. What did I learn from that.....To be positive, spend the most time I could muster everyday being positive. Now I had to take a really sad thing and turn it around. It's made a difference in my life.
It's a talking point now with my nephews and my kids as well.
I'll never forget a lady who runs a non profit organization that supports kids who parents and siblings committed suicide. By the way we support this organization through a golf tournament we run in my brother's honor.
She said "Death should be a learning experience to the living, we may not understand why all the time but their are always lessons to be learned, we just need to look hard enough"
I don't mean to beat you over the head here, just asking you to look for perspective from all angles. I think the questions why? and Why not? are actually the same thing. Think about it.
Mirage
Thanks mirage,
I can't even imagine loosing a twin.
Today is the one year mark for exw first attempt. I do think it was a learning experience. It also forced me and my daughters to develop a different and better relationship than we had before. During this period I have watched a friends family fall apart after his wife did commit suicide. I feel lucky that I was already starting down a road of self introspection and improvement at that point or I may have ended up in his shoes as well.
My daughters still have a long ways to go. They do not want to talk about it still. I know the ex tried to talk about it with them and I have tried and they rebuffed us. I know in time they will open up and come to talk about it. I feel the thing I learned the most from this is to be patient. I learned to let go of things that really did not matter and to give those that did the time to blossom. I think we all learn at some point that living is a life long learning experience. If we are open to it we grow and enjoy life. if we aren't we become negative bitter people who can't let go of the anger.
I don't want to read to much into anything, but yesterday I feel there was a big shift. My youngest is sick and may have strep throat. I let ex know. After work, Ex text me how was daughter doing? I let her know that doctors sent culture off to lab but did not offer anything else. Wife then text me that it was the one year anniversary of her incident and that she was sorry for all the drama it had caused. I told her it was not her fault and nothing to apologize for. I told her that I prayed for her everyday to find the happiness that she was seeking. We exchanged a few more text and I got a sense that she needed to talk. I asked her if she was ok and did she want to take a walk and talk. She said she was worried older daughter would be mad. I said don't tell her and we could meet in the park. She jumped at that and must have torn out of the apartment fast.
We met in the park and she suggested sitting to talk rather than walking. She told me how she feels she is getting old, how she misses the kids when they were little, that she worries about them but they don't need her anymore. She told me how things have not turned out how she thought they would. She now recognizes that it has affected the kids in ways that she thought they would not be because of their age. We talked about some of the things that had gone wrong, but also recognized there were good times as well.
I listened carefully. I offered what I have gone through, what I felt along the way and how it has changed me. I offered that I had not done everything right, made mistakes and hopefully have grown from all this.
She told me how I was the only one that she could share the memories of our kids growing up and life together with. That we had taken a lot of trips together with the kids and how she would never do that alone.
I sense that she is missing the good parts of what we had together. I am not sure if this is going to lead anywhere. We left it open to meeting up again. I do get a stronger feeling about the kids interfering in us inter acting. I feel my wife may have had enough of it and is starting to rebel against it. I think she may have felt part of this was for the kids and she is having second thoughts about that now. I told her that she cannot let the kids choose her life for her, that she has to choose that for herself.
I won't read too much into things. I won't get impatient and push things along. I know there is a long way to go and could return to where they were.I will give her the time she needs to decide what path she wants to take. I was surprised by this. I am a little hope full that things have taken a turn in a more positive direction.
Life,
I find it interesting that a grown woman would be worried about your daughter being mad. Just sayin. Sometimes when were grown up......were not really.
You got this. You can handle however this goes.
I'm sure you will agree, your internal strength is much greater now.
Mirage
So I thought some more about the conversation I had with me ex on Monday. I also talk to my middle daughter about how she feels her mother is doing. She said that everything thinks mom my try again. So I contacted her oldest sister to let her know my concerns about where x is right now in her unhappiness. We had a good conversation and she told me most of the family has the same concerns. I got the hint they are all getting resolved to loosing her.
So I slept more on it and got up the next morning and sent her the following email:
"You asked me if I was happy on Monday. The answer to that is yes and no.
I am happy that I have had the opportunity to work on my relationship with our daughters. That I am here to see them grow up into the beautiful women that together we have raised. They are not perfect. Like you, I wish I could get them to help out a little bit. Every time I turn around the sink is full. it seems like a bottomless pit of dirty dishes that will never go away. I ask myself,"Where did we go wrong?" Then there is the little things that make me smile. Their laughter off in the distance, when they come at the last minute asking for help, when they do come to talk and seek advice. Its these times that I know that together we have raised some wonderful people. Thats when I am happy.
I am not happy when I think about what happened between us. How I should have done more. How I should have put you first on everything. How I should have taken care of you first. I realize how immature I was and how selfish too. I think about what I would do differently if I could do it over. I am not happy about having to start over. At times the future look bleak to me and I sink into a hole. Those are the times I am my saddest because I realize I blew it.
Last year was the darkest time of my life. When I think about how close we came to loosing you I find myself tearing up and have to find a quiet place to compose myself. I pray to GOD everyday. I ask him to watch over you and the girls, to help all of you to find the path he has chosen for you, to give you special attention and help you to find that happiness that is locked up somewhere inside of you. I thank him for keeping you with us and allowing you to continue to be the great mom you have been to our daughters. I am thankful that you have gotten through this first year and hope for many more to come.
Things are definitely not where either of us hoped they would be. I hope that we can find a way to at least be friends. To maybe take a walk once in a while. To maybe catch a movie here and there. To have someone to share all the wonderful memories with that we have created raising our girls. Who else can I rely on to help me get through dealing with the grand kids who will be coming along soon I am sure.
J***, you are not old. You are like a fine wine that keeps getting better with age. Celebrate that you have come this far and accomplished a lot along the way. Give yourself a lot of credit for how these girls are turning out. They would not have turned out as great as they are without you. Move forward with your head held high. You have earned it."
I was pleasantly surprised to get a text from her today that she appreciated the email.
Not sure how to go forward from here. Am I pressuring too much ?
Well last night I think my ex made another big step for her. Up till now most contact has been via text. Even that was was sporadic. Well last night I text her to see if she new if oldest had gotten headlight fixed as she was not responding to my text messages. I expected I would eventually get a response via text. About an hour later I get a call from Ex. This is the first time she has initiated an actual call since BD. She actually wanted to talk to me about the girls and her concerns. We talked for almost an hour.
I am pleased by this event. I am trying hard not to read to much into it or expect much. I am mostly surprised as I was expecting her to go quiet again. She had just gotten back from a week long trip to see her oldest sister. I had expected her sister to pressure her to have no contact with me. This has been the pattern of advice she has gotten from her family in the past. So, for her to do the exact opposite took me by surprise.
I can truly say this is the hardest thing I have ever experienced in my life. I want to push to make things happen. I want things to change over night. I am itchy and restless. I know though if I push she will run. Restraining my self is extremely hard.
Last evening my ex did something that makes me think she is coming out of the fog. About 8:30 i received a text from her. In the past it would have been negative or accusing me of something. She did not initiate contact other wise. I was the one to contact in regards to the kids. Last nights text was quite a lot different. It was longer than usual and she was sharing with me the great day that she had with our youngest. She has not shared anything like this with me in a long time. Most text are a couple words, mostly in anger.
I am starting to feel like she is coming out of her fog a bit. It is very hard to not get too much hope up. I do think her telling me she is through menopause finally has a lot to do with this. Combining it with severe depression must be h*11 for the individual. I know she still feels she is getting old and is no longer attractive has had a great deal to do with things.
My plan is to still keep being the rock for my children and be there for ex if she has problems. I won't jump, but I also won't let her suffer. I won't push things and keep reminding myself to take things slow and see where things lead.
LT - your posts are so beautiful. I am in awe of the balance and grace you have found in a tough situation. I am hoping things keep moving in such a positive way.
Thanks Gwen. They seem to be. Late this afternoon we took a walk. It has been a long time since we took a walk. We talked about the girls and their issues. These events are taking place when ever there is no chance of being found out. I get the feeling she does not want anyone knowing for now. kinda like sneaking around. I think she is worried what other people will say or maybe interfere in some way.
Wow, LT, that's great. It's always interesting to see a form of movement. Seems like she is being cautious and feeling things out. That's good.
And Gwen had a good call with her post. You have done very well. Keep it up. Having that solid foundation is so important when they start poking out...
LT - it's such a good feeling when they are being normal for a change isn't it, you seem to have your feelings and thoughts about this change under control - well done you.
I can truly say this is the hardest thing I have ever experienced in my life. I want to push to make things happen. I want things to change over night. I am itchy and restless. I know though if I push she will run. Restraining my self is extremely hard.
I am right there with you
oops, pressed submit and ran out of edit time !
So to add to my post -
I am right there with you LT, its so hard to not get caught up with the glimmer of hope and jump on in with the enthusiasm of a kid on Christmas Morning! You seem very level headed and know it is still a case of patience and standing back to watch what she does next.
Try not to get too side tracked by these new developments though, make sure you continue focusing on you aswell. I watch and learn by your example LT, good luck
LT - enjoy the day and try to live in the moment. It is so hard to be patient, but you are doing well.
Thanks Mighty, Lou, and dejavu,
I can see how easy it is to loose focus and get ones hopes built up. I actually find my self having less patience with things the older I get. when I was younger, I worked on projects that could take from 5 to 10 years to complete. I think this has given me some perspective on this process. at the same time, I don't want it to drag out that long.
I know she is being cautious herself. I remember when we got engaged, she wanted to keep it between the two of us for a while before we told anyone else. I think she will go down the same path as she will want to make up her mind and have this for herself if she choses to before she shares it with anyone else. I also feel that she is concerned about what response she will get from her family should she suddenly announce that she wants to give it another try.
Like we keep saying here Time is on my side.
LT,
Reconnection takes a lot of time and patience. Yep, that old word patience will be spoken many times during the reconnection process. Keep in mind that both of you have changed and until she feels comfortable enough to want to try again, she's going to be a bit skittish. So, like a skittish kitten, drop the kibbles and allow her to come to you and do not make any moves to rush the process.
Patience and more patience are required now. I've ordered up a couple of patience shovels for you.
We met up for another walk last night. She goes when she feels the kids won't find out. I feel that she does not want anyone in the family to know. I think there are family members on her side that would give her a hard time so she is keeping it quiet.
She started off the walk by saying that she feels that she has lost all her identity. Her identity as a wife and as a mother. The kids are getting older and are at the phase where they don't really want much to do with mom or dad. She said she feels like she did when we first met and that it not a place she thought she would ever be in again.
The conversation then turned towards menopause. I remember around bd when she told me not to blame this on menopause. Now that she is thru menopause she is starting to see the effects it has had on her.
She talked some more, I listened and tried to validate. I did challenge her once by asking her what she is going to do about it. I slipped up a bit there and she called me on it. Calling me on it was a new thing for her.
She emphasized that nothing of what she thought would happen as a result of the separation and divorce has worked out the way she thought it would. She has now stated this several times in our conversations.
Talk was mostly centered on her and her trying to figure things out. She said she is not happy. She said she feels that she really has a problem coveting what others have. I told her that she won't find happiness in having things or from other people. I told her that I have found happiness in the little things and actions that happen. That it has to come from inside.
She is definitely in a period of trying to figure out what just happened. The fog has seemed to lift. I wonder how long it takes before I can accept that it has lifted permanently? How long before I should feel that she has returned to reality?
Life
I can only tell you the following from my journey through MLC. Maybe wonka will have a different take.
I knew with every ounce of my being I made it through the tunnel. I was changed, I was molded into the person I was supposed to be. I assumed and thinking now probably wrongly that everyone on the outside would know it too. That assessment may be wrong.
Our kids have told me I was different after the tunnel. More understanding, more calm more positive.
Internally you just know you made it through. Hopefully she can convey that to you in her actions if not verbally. My opinion is if you make it through MLC and accept the journey for what it is, you won't go back...you fought your demons and you put them to rest so your life can move forward.
Based upon some of the things in your conversation, my opinion is she is not totally out but she is more than 75% through. By getting to 100%, you don't question some of the things she still questions(again, my opinion only)
When through, your words and actions are much in alignment.
Hope this helps.
Mirage
Your wife is just starting to open her eyes and see what happened to her. She never dreamed that things wouldn't turn out the way that she had hoped. She realizes now that she has some work ahead of her to better understand herself and the why's and what if's of the entire situation. Continue to be a friend, validate and affirm, listen, but don't offer advice unless she asks for it. The one thing that you will need plenty of is patience.
You asked how long before the fog has lifted? It's going to take some time and yes, you are going to get frustrated that she's not through it yet...but it could take as long as it took her to enter into her crisis, it could be 12-18 months or shorter depending upon if she has the time and space to focus on her and her issues. Then there is another period of time, when she actually has to finally settle down and get comfortable in her own skin again. This step is beyond acceptance.
Lifes Twists, you are doing a great job. Dig deeper for more patience because this is where the road gets slippery because the spouse always wants to rush the process and trust me, it is better to allow her to go slowly and re-enter life at her own pace. If you can do this, she will be a far more mature and happy person once she's back and comfortable in her own skin.
If you haven't done so, you may want to read the reconnection there. It will help you better understand the re-entry process.
During part of the conversation my ex said she felt like she was back in the same rut she was in before we met. I was the person who pulled her out of that rut and took her on many adventures along the life we had together. Should I try to do that again? If I do, how do I determine if I am trying to do something that may push her back? I think her telling me this was a way to tell me she enjoyed those times and would like to experience more. Should I suggest things to help her get started getting out of this rut? She has never been adventurous on her own, but has always accepted gentle pushes to try new things.
My thought is that she may need to do those things on her own, LT. While I think she did enjoy them, I would think that you would do better being you. i.e. do the things you do, and if it feels right, invite her along.
My concern would be that you would be circumventing the process of her own growth by trying to "help" too much. That would be a fine line, no?
I think Job is right - it's early days for her to figure out how to come through and out. Trying to help too much may prevent that from occurring.
My concern though. You're closer to the situation although I would think just by you asking, you intuitively know that caution is needed.
AJ
Your wife needs to grow up on her own. If she feels that she's in a rut, she needs to figure out on her own how to get out of it. You rescued her many times pre-crisis, now she needs to grow up and face those ruts and find a way out of them.
Make suggestions and leave the door open as to whether she wants to try new things. However, don't push her to join in. She needs to learn to make decisions on her own and become independent.
Don't become her rescuer...you've already been there, done that. She needs to become an equal partner to you. Always remember, you can't fix her because you didn't break her. She's the only one that can fix herself.
Thanks AJM and job,
Thats the way I was leaning, but like most I second guess myself and need to throw things out for comment. Its tough reading things at times. I wish there were assembly instructions included.
I agree that she needs to be stronger about making decisions on her own. I have felt for a long time during this whole thing that at times her decisions were really others decisions and suggestions on who she should be. I hope that she is recognizing this and beginning to want more than that for herself. If I start to do that for her now I will be as bad as the others who have been doing this.
Small update:
Yesterday I saw another small positive step on her part. the new norm right now has been when she contacts me its about the kids or possibly to talk about her. yesterday she initiated a text where she started off asking how my new job was going. When I saw the text a couple hours later I responded and she responded back right away and we had a nice little text discussion.
I feel things are finally starting to go well. I keep myself in check and not push like I would want to.
I'm happy for you, LT. Stay the course and hope the summer is going well.
Thanks GB
My counselor sent me this article that I think should be shared here. It was in the new york times recently.
here is the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/style/crawling-back-from-the-ledge.html?emc=eta1&_r=0
Hi everyone, a bit of an update.
Things are going along in an ebb and flow as I suspect they will. We have met up for a couple walks to talk about things. I also was at her apartment for dinner and to work on daughters college stuff earlier this week. I have noticed now that she has a big smile when she first sees me now. That was not the case for a long time.
I believe that she is now reaching out to me for her emotional support. yesterday was a prime example of this. She sent me a text shortly after I arrived at work. She was getting all worked up over the cost of the girls college expenses. She texted that it was making her sick. I told her that she should not make her self sick over it. That if we talk it through and work together that things will work out.Then she texted about stress from worrying that the girls will make it through school. I told her this was normal. That the girls may hit some bumps along the way which is part of life and growing up. That we should not try and shield them from it.
Is it unusual for them to return for emotional support so quickly after the divorce is finalized? Should I be concerned?
Interesting article on depression, LT. What did you take from it?
AJ
"..as he stood in the hallway watching me in the midst of a mental breakdown, I saw what he’d been trying to tell me all along.
I love you.
I’m worried about you.
I want you to be happy.
I’m still here.
It was what I needed more than anything but never thought I could get."
Thanks for posting the article. I thought this part above was lovely. In many ways it is how I feel about my H just now..
Have a good day, T xx
Hi Aj,
Two things really hit me. The first was were she did not him to judge her. I have had the same response from my ex. I had wondered if this is a common feeling amongst the depressed that they are being judged by others.
The second was how she realized he did love her. Again, I wondered is this the same for most if the finally awaken from their own fog.
Hi Toots,
I like that part as well. I wonder if this is what happens to most MLCers who finally wake up. This article resonated with me because it is from the mind of one who is dealing with sever depression. Lets us in a little bit on where their head is at.
Hmmm....
I'm no expert, but my XW ALWAYS thought I was judging her about something. It was like a fear of hers. She ALWAYS thought she was being judged by me, my family or coworkers.
She never thought she was good enough, pretty enough, smart enough....sad really.
Tad
So, I received a pleasant surprise this morning. She sent me a happy fathers day text. First time she has acknowledged anything in the last couple years. Little steps like this will add up, they just take time.
That was a nice surprise. A good way to start the day.
I had another interesting talk with the ex during the evening of fathers day. I have noticed that she always includes something she has lost because of what has happened. This time she said that she wanted to thank me for all the trips and adventures we had together and as a family. That those created many great memories. She lamented that she probably would not have anymore as she was not one to do them on her own. I said to her that you never know where life is going to take you and that opportunities may come along.
We then talked a bit about her. She said that she has come to realize that she cannot trust her own mind. That with the depression and things like the menopause that what she thought was not always real. We talked about the fact that a lot of times the person dealing with the depression feels they are being judged by others. I told her this is quite common and that most likely they are not being judged by the other person. That in fact the other person may be very concerned for them.
I can see that she is slowly digging her way out of where she has been. I am not sure if the listing of things she has lost (
Identity as a wife, Identity as a mother, Loss of getting out to experience life on trips and adventures) are openings that I should be following up on or should I just sit back?
LT,
Your wife is slowly waking up and she feels safe to talk about things to you. I would be a friend and just listen and validate. If she asks for your comment, then you provide it...otherwise, just listen. The more you listen, the more you will learn about where your wife's head is at right now.
Thanks Job,
So we went a movie last night, "Spy" with Mellisa McCarthy. Great movie and I have not heard my ex laugh so much in a long time. We talked about the kids on the way over and about some of our stuff on way home. My ex said that we were both dealing with illnesses over the last couple years that really got in the way of things. She indicated that she felt we were both getting through them and had worked on ourselves.I have long suspected my lung issues may have been the final trigger to BD. I feel that it is good that she has acknowledged that she was also dealing with an illness that got the better of her. I think things keep moving slowly in a good direction.
I have not posted for a few weeks. I find if I post too often then I want to push on things so I have things to write. My ex is pulling a pushing a bit. Sometimes she wants to keep a conversation going, other times not.
We took a trip up to look at a school with my middle and youngest daughter. The day went very well. We had good conversations. After the trip my ex was worried how the kids would react to us having a family type day trip together. I told her that if they acted in a negative way to tell me and we would talk to them together.
She continues to bring up at least one thing she feels she lost or how hard it is trying to do it on her own in just about every conversation we have. My ex has never been an out going individual. She was never one to ask for or take what she wants. She has never been one to lead. I am starting to wonder if she is letting me know in her way that she is ready to discuss things about us and a future. I am wondering if this is her trying to temp check me without step out to far and getting hurt herself. I am contemplating if I should find a time to allow this conversation to take place or wait till she forces it. I suspect she never will on her own as that would be totally out of character for her.
Out of character for her? Isn't that part of what this is about though?
I'd say make the room for her to have the conversation, but not too much. She seems to need to figure out her voice and identity and seems very unsure of herself.
Just a thought.
AJ
LT, I know what you mean. I agree with AJ, that she needs to find her footing and if she wants something to happen bad enough, she has to find the way. However, I think this is also walking a fine line for you. It is hard to know what would make a difference towards one outcome or another.
As you know from my sitch, I’ve been also thinking that H might never make the first step, even if he would like to. My sitch is different though. We are not communicating (outside of business) and not spending time together. We are not even talking. It think I would have a different prospective if we would talk and communicate on a regular basis. I would probably ask some questions to see where H's head is.
I would say give it some more time before you decide to start a conversation. I think she knows that the door is not completely closed. I also hope that the opportunity presents itself soon and you will know when it is a good time to do this.
Its been almost a month since I last posted on my situation. I have been giving it time to move along at its own pace without any pressure on her or myself to move things along. During this period we have continued to communicate at a low level. She continued to bring up things she missed and felt a loss over.
This morning we met for coffee and to talk. We talked about the kids and the impact this has had on them. She expressed that it has been much worse than she thought it would. She talked about the loss of coming home to a family. She again expressed her sense of loss of being a wife, a mother, loss of home. I validated what she said and expressed my own sense of loss and the needs of our daughters.
The conversation worked its way around to where do we go from here. We discussed the probable push back from our families to getting back together. We both agreed though that we have to live our own lives and not let our families live them for us. We discussed the confusion the girls may have if we get back together and how to explain it to them.
We have agreed to take our time. We are going to keep it to ourselves right now and work on thing together to see if we can bring our lives back together before we bring anyone else into this.
Our we on the path to reconciliation? I believe we have taken the very first tentative step. Neither of us are going to jump in head first. We are going to go slow and make sure it is the right thing and that we will be in a better place when we are done.
Hi all,
Communication between the ex and I are slowly improving. We now communicate at least once a day. That is a vast improvement. It has also gone from just about the kids to her asking about me and what I am doing or just sharing something she is doing.
We have been going for an occasional walk or ice cream and having longer conversations. We have attempted to keep this too our selves because we did not want to get kids hopes up nor deal with some apparent anger they we showing till we figured out things for ourselves. Unfortunately or fortunately our kids found out and confronted us on it this past Sunday. This led to a family meeting that evening and I feel we finally exposed a burden that the kids had carrying by themselves and hopefully dealt with it. Right after my wifes attempt she told the kids and everyone in her family that I was the cause for her attempt. My kids did not tell me because they did not want to hurt me. when they confronted wife on this she said she did not remember ever saying that. I believe she said it and I also believe that she does not remember. Par for the course of MLC. We all agreed that we would be more open about what was going on.
I talked to the girls later and explained that saying stuff like that is very typical for people going through a crisis. That also not remembering is typical. I told them they should have told me and not carried the burden themselves. That I would have understood.
This is proving to be a very long slow road I am on and still no idea where it is leading.
Tough stuff to be sure, LT. Deciding how open to be can be difficult. It's also tough how much to share with the family unit knowing it affects all involved.
As for the kids trying to protect you? Be careful with that one. Kids want to protect their parents - they have to be told and taught what to tell you. And that's a trust thing as well - it's a reflection of what they see and how they make a decision. Take that for what it's worth
Glad you're still communicating. You've seen the other side, so you know it goes slowwwwwwwwwly. Try to take each day as it comes.
Keep up the good work!
AJ
Thanks AJM,
The thing that is the hardest to understand is how angry the kids were with their mother for associating with me because of the fact she apparently told them I was the cause of her S attempt. When they confronted her on it she was very confused and told them she did not remember saying that. The kids told her she told everyone and how will she handle telling her family. I have talked to them and told them that many times people in crisis say things the dont remember later. I told them their mothers illness also contributes to this.
Working through all this and giving time for things to happen is like watching grass grow. It is so slow it never really seems like it will happen.
Like watching grass grow? Hang on then. Sometimes I find it more like watching paint dry, crack and peel...without a sound track.
I imagine it is frustrating, LT. I can understand how your children felt though and why anger was the first thought. They are worried about their mother and were led to believe you were the cause of the issue. And here you are back in the picture. That should trigger all kinds of problems for the kids, don't you think?
You already know this, but your W needs professional help. No question about that. So your kids are left with trying to understand what's going on. They get pieces of the story, and then get hit with these "gems" that crop up. Which further fuels the concern, anxiety, and worry. They are not thinking their mom is "crazy" because they were fed a story which satiated them at the time. Now they are being told that she doesn't remember saying that? How to make sense of that?
You are the rock in this picture. And the guiding force for them follow through. That's important and your place as a parent, but hard for them to adjust to one of you doing that. But you have to admit - for them it's even harder than it is for you because they are watching their mom, somebody they trust implicitly, wobble all over the place.
Has your W been evaluated as part of the s attempts? What did they say about what's going on?
AJ
Hi AJ,
She is under the care of professionals in terms of mental health. I have seen good progress once it appeared that she is coming out of the fog. I think part of the anger is what was said by W, but also suspect some was fueled by what their aunts may have told them. They also may have been put under a heavy burden by their aunts and maybe are angry that they did not let me know so they did not have to carry the burden alone.
I am not sure what was the doctors may have said about the attempts. That may be a conversation for the future. She has explained some of it by how hard menopause hit her on top of her on going depression.
Any consideration to going to see a professional as a family? Just you and the kids as a way to clear the air? Or is that being handled by your current steps?
From my perspective as an outsider, I see how hard it might be for the girls and you. Especially if other family is involved. I can only imagine how hard it must be.
AJ
Given that this has all just come to light and we had a family meeting I want to see how things progress. The two older ones are back to college now and less inclined to do a family thing right now. They have just asked us to be open about it rather than trying to meet up and hiding it. The youngest is back in Hschool and at that age she wants nothing to do with us anyhow. I will have to keep an eye on them and see if something appears that I have to seek help with. I do think the family meeting cleared the air a bit and maybe allow everyone to move forward.
Its hard when her family thinks they are coming to her rescue like a knight riding in on a white horse and then continue to interfere from a distance but are not here to really deal with the aftermath of their interference.
Its hard when her family thinks they are coming to her rescue like a knight riding in on a white horse and then continue to interfere from a distance but are not here to really deal with the aftermath of their interference.
So you know the score. The world is still spinning, family is still involved and possibly unknowingly continuing old familiar habits..
That just means you and W will have to make adjustments of sorts, right?
I think it's wise to know and to wait with the kids. Their ask seems reasonable considering how it affects them as well.
Hang in there. Things never stay the same forever
AJ
Hi everyone,
It has been a while. Things are moving terribly slow. Sometimes I thinks it is getting better, then she pulls back again. She definitely sends a lot of mixed signals.
We have done a few things together as a family. She and I also have gone out for ice cream on quite a few Sundays. The draw back is that she also mentions how angry her family will be if we were to get back together.
My two oldest girls are also struggling with being around their mother. They both recognize that she has changed. My oldest cried one day when I drove her back to school. She feels she has lost her mother and that she will never return.
My middle daughter says she goes and stays with her only because she feels if she doesn't that her mom may attempt suicide again. She says her friends ask where she is when they call. If she is at my home they come over to hang out and make plans. If she is her mothers they decide where to meet up rather than go there.
Lately I am feeling that she is leading me on.She says there is a possibility of us getting back together, but then falls back on the people will be angry. I am lately feeling like maybe she is holding me for plan b while she figures out if there might be something else where she wont have to deal with the anger of her family.
I feel like I have been extremely patient. I am getting itchy to see something happen or move on myself. I do want to have someone in my life. I am starting to question whether she is worth the wait. I am feeling that she will never be happy and ask myself if I want to continue to have that in my life.
can one ever get away from the craziness when there are kids involved? I sometimes wonder if it is fair to bring someone into this situation? Am I off the wall or is this a normal part of the process to feel this way?
Life,
The answer is yes. You can get away from the craziness even with kids involved but you have decide that then make it happen.
And yes to your other question. It's normal to feel whether it's fair to bring someone into your life.....
Think of it this way. It's now your life, how you chose to make it. If you can set the boundaries for yourself then you can make this new life how you want to live it.
Just so you know, it took me a while too. It's not an overnight process but a gradual "living the answers" as you feel out a whole new life.
I love the way you are a stand up guy for your daughters. That makes me know you will be alright with what you choose going forward.
Mirage
Thanks Mirage,
I think the hardest part I am dealing with in terms of getting away from the craziness is working through my daughters fears in regards to their mother. They have all expressed a fear that their mother will attempt suicide again. They all react differently to this fear. I sometimes feel I have to deal with the exs craziness in order to help her thru issues so she does not sink too far into her own hole and get to the place again where she thinks the only way out is to do what she tried before. I feel this way mostly because I dont want my daughters to have to live with the consequences of it is she does do it and succeeds. I do tell my daughters that it is not their burden. That it is an illness and they just have to be compassionate and give her time and the space that she may need.
I think that maybe one area I made a mistake is that i have probably over protected my daughters from the consequences of my wife actions. I have tried to keep things going in their lives in terms of college choices and stuff that is getting beyond my means to support as a single dad. This has not allowed either my kids or their mother to see the full ramifications of my wifes decisions. This may have also slowed the process one way or the other. I am coming to the conclusion that I have to pull back on this significantly. I think maybe it is time I allow them all to grow up.
This is a hard road we are all on. You never realize how much mental illness can affect your family till it does.
Hi
I think it is ok to "shelter" the kids from their MLCer choices and life
I have also took on the full financial load to raise 2 kids and one in college
I am grateful that I could do it , but God has provided for all our financial needs
I think my kids had not had to move or change to much of their lives
everything stayed the same except their Dad was no longer present
NO contact for many years..he M OW and moved out of state
I think that part has been good for them
So I guess Im saying no need to try to prove or teach anyone anything
Try to provide as best you can
community colleges are good also
my D has part time jobs ,,that also helps pay for her expenses at college
Life,
A couple things I have learned through this journey we call life.
You cannot help someone through, not going through with suicide. I watched my twin brother travel that road and go through with it. He had the support, but didn't choose the road we would have all thought. He left two sons behind.
Those kids went through hell( A long story) but I was just with them for Thanksgiving. As of right now they are doing really well and are young adults at this point in life.
Secondly, I don't believe in mistakes(over protecting) your daughters. You are doing the best you can and from what I see a good job.
My daughter now 17(EXW left when she was 11) will say to people often, I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for my father. Looking back I lead with actions and not words. If I said I would do something I did it. It made an impression on her.
Life, you do your best. You be the best rock you can be. Sure your rock may get a little dirty, a little chipped, but guess what it's still a rock.
My kids grew up more quickly because of the divorce. They saw life wasn't always this picture perfect story that unfolds.
Keep "livin the answers" for yourself as they arise.
Mirage
Agreed. You do the best you can with the information and experience you have at the time.
At some point you'll have to show your daughters it's ok to let their mom take care of herself. That it's ok to not control or "fix" somebody else regardless. That's tough, but it's a valuable lesson for the kids.
Life is for the living. Live it.
AJ
Hi everyone,
Sorry it has been a long time posting but I have been sick for a while. I have been way over worked at my job which lead to me getting way to worn down and catching pneumonia. I did not realize I had it and went to work while fighting it for about two months before I ended up in doctors care. I have been out for over a week now and have finally got my head clear and had time to reflect on my situation.
I found out my ex is in the running away mode again. She has basically stopped caring or dealing with our older two daughters. She said she is not prepared to deal with it and has just shut them out. She is now chasing men again to try and get a new life and abandon the one she has left.
I had hopes until now. I think some of my judgement was clouded due to illness and lack of good sleep with rest. I am now seeing what she is doing and saying. I am now again hearing what my daughters are telling me.
I believe that some of our spouses are too ill to ever face the challenge and will always choose to run. I think this can be traced to their families as well. When i take a serious look at my wife's family I see not one good relationship between my wife's siblings and their children. I see a lot of wreckage. How one family can spread the same wreckage is beyond comprehension.
I have reaffirmed my vow to be the rock for my children. I may make some mistakes along the way. I will no longer try and help their relationship with their mother. I will no longer prop her up and bail her out. She needs to deal with her choices.
I know this may sound harsh. I have to do this to give my daughters a chance to get out of this a normal view and maybe the room to heal.
I am so sorry to read that you've been sick. I do hope that you are taking care of yourself and taking things slowly so that you can get back up on your feet.
I agree w/what you posted about the family dynamics. I know that my former h's family was a train wreck. Many of them divorcing, having affairs, etc., and didn't think anything of it. My xh's father had been married 5 times and had affairs in between the marriages and no one blinked an eye. It's sad what can happen to families, but more importantly the children that have to live in such a state.
I know that you are going to be the best dad and supportive of your daughters. You are their rock, so it's important to take care of yourself, get back on your feet and enjoy the time you have w/them. They grow up so fast.
Please take care of yourself.
LT - I completely relate to your situation and I just want to say how much I admire you and am cheering you on from afar. As time moves forward my H seems to be more mentally unstable but perhaps I was just naive? Regardless protecting my girls and being their rock is my main focus these days.
Hope you are feeling better. Sending you virtual soup and tea.
Hi Everyone,
Its been a while and things are still up and down. I am no longer working with that company. They were not a good place to work and being as sick as I was did not really care and were continuing to push me for more even as my doctors were saying rest and recuperate. It finally came to a head and I had had enough and basically let them have it. Life is too short to deal with that.
I am dealing with a tough situation with my youngest daughter. She is angry most of the time and treats both her mother and me terribly. She had her first and hopefully only car accident today. It was minor and not her fault. She wanted to get a bite to eat and as I was on the line with her mother I invited her along so she could get caught up with the events. Well daughter goes off on this. She told me that we are divorced and are not supposed to do anything as a family. She gets very angry when wife and I are in each others company. It goes way beyond normal teenager stuff. I feel like she is taking out her anger over the divorce and break up of the family on us.
I have suggested to ex that we should meet with daughters counselor and see if she can help us. Ex will call tomorrow.
Anyone have any suggestions or experience with something like this? I feel at times ex wants to work on something and then daughter gets in the way. Unfortunately we cant meet up on the sly as the kids are too nosey and find out.
Here's my thought, and it's not from any experience or anything, but it just kind of came to me ...
so you and your W split, go through two years or so of all of the attendant pain we all experience and then the D is finalized. Now it seems W may want to work on things. Daughter is angry. Why? Because you guys just ripped her world apart and now you're going to get back together? So why has she gone through all this for the past two years? This is from the viewpoint of a teenager ...
To be honest, it's something i've wondered about whether or not my own son would feel like that if my H and I went through with our D and then tried to get back together.
Anyway, does that make any sense (about her anger?)
xoxoxo
I had the same thoughts. The problem is her anger is spilling over into how she treats other people as well.I am feeling that we need to not continue to allow this behavior at this point. I am hoping daughters counselor will back this up.
Ex was never strong on putting her foot down because of her own childhood. I hope she will listen to counselor and begin to deal with it face on. One of her complaints about me was she felt I was to strong on the girls yet would always expect me to step in when things got out of control. I feel that part of wifes healing has to be for her to finally is to not allow the girls to walk all over her.
Hi LT.
I have two adult daughters that are experiencing my H and I going through D (he filed in Jan and we have a second mediation coming up this summer). They have been very open with me about the confusion, pain and sometimes out and out anger they deal with due to our separation (and now the sale of our family home, as well).
They love us both.
They miss being able to use us as an example of a "good" relationship.
They are now in the position of feeling they have to comfort and advise us (parent/child relationship flip).
Our holidays/ special occasions are separate, difficult,and stressful rather than comforting and joyous.
They want "Mommy and Daddy" when they are having a hard time, but feel guilty burdening us while we are both already mentally and emotionally stressed.
They are unmoored.
They almost feel that they were lied to...that our loving R was an act (what does that mean about our love for them?).
All of these emotions are complex and confusing. Add to the mix that your daughter is a teen and her world was turned upside down when hormones, school, and her own foray into the world of teen relationships are pushing her stress levels up and over...What a mix! Then to watch you two get back together...
She is probably hopeful, but at the same time doesn't want to go through the pain again. Of course she's going to be angry...at the world.
You're right. A counselor might help, but maybe not to control her behavior. Maybe more to help her understand her anger and channel those feelings, understand them, and deal with them in a healthier way. Putting your foot down and "disallowing the behavior" (I agree, it does need to stop) by just getting tough will most likely blow up in a worse way unless she is helped to understand what is happening...to her.
I'm happy for you that even after D, the two of you are still trying to work on things. Working together to deal with your daughter's issues through a counselor can also be a doorway to understanding your own. I hope it is helpful to all of you.
Hi ciluzen,
Its really tough walking the tight rope we are all walking.
I have written a letter to her counselor outlining all that is going on.
I have had several bad days now with youngest daughter. I can understand her anger with the whole situation. Its part of the grief process. The problem is I think she is stuck in the anger part and not moving on from it.
My biggest issue is the disrespect. I want the best for her like any parent. When she uses F"yxx to me and throw a hissy fit temper tantrum it is going to far. Today I finally said to her through her closed door that I was not going to accept that any more. I told her from here on out that each time she is disrespectful that she would loose her privilege to drive the car for a day. I feel like my hands are tied and that I do need to set some boundaries on how she will treat me and what the consequence is if she violates it.