Hello my friends,
The DB MLC threads have been on my mind the past few weeks. Im doing well, still keeping on keeping on. Still working towards finding a new job for my old job has become just a miserable work place unfortunately. D 15 and D 12 are doing great, on honor roll and loving school.
Interactions with EXh have been more than normal lately. Im still noticing patterns with him 4 years later. I had hoped to share these patterns and to get a little feed back from you so as to help me not feel insane. Because even though my life is moving forward and Im doing well, the man still baffles me which still tends to drive me batty. And the basis of it all is I still get mixed messages and still to this day don't know where I stand with that man. To add some things, it's clear Exh will contact me and be very talkative when the new wife is NOT AROUND. I've tested this theory in purposely texting him when I know he's at home. If she's asleep or out of the room he's chatting with me at lightning speed. If she's around, it's a word or two response or hours before I hear anything back. If I text him on his lunch hour or even while he's at work, well he's just Mr. Chatty Kathy!!
I contacted ex H a few weeks ago for help with my computer, the computer he built for me. I was so lost and wondered if the problems I was having had to do with how he set up passwords. Xh was more than happy to help and advise me in what to do. This is all by text message of course. As we chat, I let him know that my grandmother was expected to pass any time. He then told me his grandmother was expected to pass soon too. I had known she was in the hospital but didn't know how bad she was. As it turned out, our grandmothers both passed on the same day within 10 hours of each other. He was kind in his response to me as well as me to him. It was time for our grandma's. No services for my grandma, for she's safely in the double urn next to my grandpa, here in my home.
I asked Exh if he was ok if I went to his grandmother's service, for the girls wanted to go and so did I! His grandmother always was so kind to me after the divorce and was always happy to see me! He told me it was open to anyone.
So the girls and I went. This is where things get really odd.
I see him with the OW. Well first of all, I gotta say this was a good stroke to me ego! I was jealous of that??? Then what I noticed, was them holding hands and being affectionate, which he never was with me. Ok, so I gotta accept that, but I still found it odd. I was prepared to see them together, but of course given this is the first time I've seen them together as a couple, it did push some buttons, but buttons I was prepared for.
XH didn't acknowledge his daughters at all until D12 went to speak to him and say hello. D15 still not wanting to speak with him stuck to my side, and yet XH didn't even say hello to her, smile at her or even acknowledge her.
So Xh and OW were stuck like glue to each other which I thought was odd. He wasn't socializing with anyone like he normally would do in a family setting like that. This was not the man I used to remember!
The girls and I enjoyed the reception afterwards and it was so nice to see the family I haven't seen in so long. I was warmly greeted and people were generally happy to see me. I needed that because I was so worried I was hated, especially by his Cousin. However she and I shared a warm embrace and comforted each other in the loss of our grandmothers.
Ex H made no point to say good bye to the girls as we left and D12 had to make the effort to physically go to him and say good bye.
Now here I am 2 weeks later at 5 a.m., getting text from D12. She's with him this weekend, and as it turns out OW is having her 7th or 8th grandchild today. They of course visited her in the hospital yesterday but were headed again at 4 a.m. cause her water broke. D12 informs me they're staying till noon or so and she'll just sleep in the waiting room with her dad???
Ok.... this I understand. They have one vehicle, yet it seems OW can no longer drive herself anywhere nor work any job anymore within the last year. Granted she needs to be there for her daughter.... of course she does! But why does my D12 have to be stuck in the waiting room from 4 a.m. when Xh could just go back home and head back to the hospital later? They live 15 minutes from the hospital!!!
So there's my drama. I guess what still pisses me off is that here we are 4 years later and it's almost like he's living a secret life. He secretly talks to me like a friend, but when she's around it's radio silence. And this personal chauffer thing.... I just don't get.
Im seeing some sort of co dependent "whipped" sort of thing going on with those two.
At any rate my friends, Im confused. Is he still trying to keep his toe on this side of the fence? Why does he refuse to try and re connect with D15? Why does he ignore her, when all I've heard from his mother is how heart broken he was by her being upset with him? When she had every right to be and I know he knows this?
His behavior just doesn't make sense, but then again nothing about MLC makes sense.
XH and OW have gained an incredible amount of weight since being together. I've never seen her so big and he's pushing 450 I swear. I wonder if they're eating away their guilt?
Kimmerz
Kim,
Everything you describe shows a continued level of immaturity on the part of your husband. I would not read anything into or invest any time in it. He is acting towards your 15 year old much like my wife family is acting towards ours. Like him, they are waiting on my girls to reach out and contact them. Make you wonder who the adults are in this situation. My daughters see right through it and have decided not to waste their time on it. Your husband is handling things wrong with your D15. Make sure you are her rock and always there for her.
Kimmerz,
I do hope that you and your girls are doing okay. I'm very sorry to read about your grandmother and I hope that you can find some comfort in knowing that she loved you very much and will always be w/you in spirit and in your heart.
Your xh's situation sounds like the one that my xh was in. He was also lovey dovey w/his w (ow) in public, as well as they both gained a lot of weight. My xh was Mr. Chatty Cathy too when she wasn't around. Keep in mind, that they will turn themselves inside out to be the person that the op wants. They so want to be wanted and needed and viewed as not only a good person, but also a victim in the last relationship.
I think that they want to remain friends, i.e., on their level, to appease their guilt, but also in case they need us for something. Some do like to keep a toe in both ponds, but they are few and far between. They want to look like the good guy and be able to tell others that they are on a friendly basis with the ex and by doing so, they are kept informed of what you are doing, as well as the kids.
It's interesting how your daughters are interacting w/him. Your oldest daughter is very much aware of what he's done and is doing. She is the one that has remained distant because of the situation. He can't win her over. Whereas your D12 may still enjoy being around him and doesn't question him about the things he does. She goes along w/his program and her interaction w/him and the new wife may not rock his boat and challenge him.
I'm going to give you just a little bit of advice and you can take it or leave it...don't share too much of your life w/him. He still wants to know what's going on in your world. The next time he contacts you, notice how he chats up about what he's doing, i.e., in the hopes that you'll share. My xh has done this and it's a way to manipulate you into sharing. Share only things about your children or if you have questions about something he's worked on in the past.
To be perfectly honest, there is no rhyme or reason as to why they do the things they do. If I were you, I'd count my lucky stars that he's at least being somewhat friendly these days because some of them remain angry and bitter for a very long time. Your xh is exhibiting behavior very similar to others who have gone before you. Try not to over analyze his behavior because there truly isn't a one size fits all answer for their behavior.
Kimmerz,
Greetings! I am fairly new to this, so I don't know that I have that much to offer. I have read some of your sich in the past, but I can't exactly remember.
However, I feel compelled to post, as some of you questions are the exact same I've had this week.
Is he still trying to keep his toe on this side of the fence?
As of late, I've experienced some monster behavior. Prior to this is was reaching out trying to be "niceish" (for lack of a better word).
But I question this, too. Why the heck does he even bother if he has a new life? What exactly does he want from me? Is that what you wonder? It is hard to find your place in his life with the current sich, right?
The affection part and driving Ms. Daisy... well, I think that is probably just unhealthy codependency and insecurity. And there is a reason for them both to be insecure in there r, right?
And if they can't keep the hands off at a funeral, in front of his kids, who are obviously still upset about the sitch, it is just sick. They need to do that because they aren't strong enough to do otherwise. Just like your xh isn't strong enough to address his own d's!
The contact with you while ow is away... I pretty much have gotten the same thing for months. Good or bad. Again, insecurity in themselves and in their r. Obviously ow would not be comfortable with it- again, for obvious reasons.
Although I offer no real insight into the mlc, because, it is a weird, crazy, wild thing, that I don't think I have the capacity to really understand.... I understand the confusion to the lbs.
It will be interesting to see what others say about this. Good luck. It sounds like you and the girls are doing well. Good for you.
Sometimes fathers are intimidated by their teenage daughters because they are becoming young women. He can't hide his true behavior any longer as D is becoming much more aware of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, etc.
He may simply be afraid because she is wiser.
Hello Friends!
It was so good to come home from work and see these posts! I truly appreciate it! I just needed a little validity and some advice!
Thank for job for the condolences on my grandma. She was 94 but had been slowly declining from dementia the past 20 years. It's been a rough road with her. She went from knowing me, to not knowing me and thinking I was her daughter she had a horrible relationship with. Then she got to the point she could no longer walk or feed herself, but then she recognized me! She couldn't make sensible conversation, but she knew me, and was happy to see me, and that's all I cared about! The last conversation I had with her was one week before she died. She was so happy to see me, and we had our connection for about 3 minutes and then she fell asleep. It meant the world to me.
I agree with everything you all stated in the posts. Yep, total immaturity, and my 15 year old has his number allright! And she won't have any of it! D12 just seems ok to keep on going, yet she's not really thrilled with OW. She doesn't rock the boat.... quite yet! Give her another year or two and I bet she will!
You know Exh ignored his children infront of everyone at that service, especially his family. For that Im grateful, maybe they all can actually see with their own eyes what he's really been like instead of him feeding BS to them all.
I guess Im still baffled at times because the behavior still seems so irrational at times. Quite frankly I can't get over the fact that an MLCer would turn themselves inside out to please someone like that just to be needed and feel special! To the point of making themselves WHIPPED!!
What a waste of time! How about owning your mistakes, learn from them and move on? Oh hell, now that would just make too much logical sense now wouldn't it?
Well this site and everyone here has saved my sanity and continues to do so. I guess the good news is, yes it is as crazy as it seems!
Have you tried Alanon?
Your H clearly has a disease. I don't know which one exactly but he is not functioning as a sober person. Maybe his disease is overeating, maybe its depression, maybe its MLC but he is sick.
His being nice to you sometimes because of his disease. He knows (or believes) that if he is desperate for co-dependent love he can come back to you. This is not something he does consciously.
I really believe many of these men may try to come back when they hit a 2nd bottom. Stay away and protect your kids.
I wouldn't engage in your text chats with him
That's very interesting you mention Al anon, for I've been considering going back and have been reading alot online.
Many years ago I did go to Al Anon because I've been around alcoholism ALL MY LIFE. My grandmother, mother, Aunt, step father and his family, and now ex husband and his mother. His mom has become a sad case.
The one thing I've really finally started to grasp about any "addict" is the mentality that it accompanies and how powerless the can become to the addiction. You can still love these people, but you have to accept what their priority is.
My ex is a man that has many "addictions" and does everything to the extreme.... and it comes with mood swings as well. I could never quite figure out if he was having mood swings due to the high his "new" thing was, or if was swinging low and self medicating through drink, food, material things, spending money, partying, etc. I do know he will gravitate to anything that makes him feel good regardless of what it costs him. And I still to this day wonder if he's bi polar.
He never was into drugs, is scared to take a tylenol, and can't drink due to it brining on serious bouts of gout!
So in a sense, his new wife and new family are a whole new high for him. I wonder once it gets ordinary and hectic if he'll start wishing he could leave. But then again who am I to even wonder about that.
I've gotten to the point that I've accepted he didn't love me anymore, moved on and this is the way life is now. But when he comes and goes with this mr nice mr chatty thing, then starts acting completely irrational with our 15 year old, then I get reports from our 12 year old how immature he acts around her, I think to myself " Yeah, he's just F****** crazy!"
Kimmerz,
Because he swings back and forth w/being Mr. Nice Guy and acting a bit immature around your daughter(s), you need to step away from him, i.e., only deal w/him on issues that involve your girls. He's toxic and you don't need that in your life. You've come a long way and you and your girls do not deserve this crazy making behavior.
Step far away from him. He has an addictive personality and you may want to meet up w/an Alanon group just to chat and get some added strength from their meetings. As to whether he's on a "high" right now w/his new family, I would say it will wear thin and he'll become bored at some point and you do not want to become the OW in his new situation.
He's toxic. It's okay to be civil, but don't share anything more w/him except what is going on in your daughters' lives. In his mind, he thinks you are right where he left you and can pick up w/you again and again. He doesn't realize that you've grown and now can see life w/o him in a more promising and pleasant way.
Alanon has been an awesome help in my life. Along with these boards it truely saved me at the beginning.
One great thing about alanon has been meeting amazing new friends in my area that were going through hard times yet really trying to get through them with grace and love
Holy guacamole job!! You really think so? For some reason the expectation for him that I would still be hanging in the wings for his convenience just seems like too much thought for him! But then again, I know that's how these MLCer's roll, maybe this is the point of progression we are at now on his crazy train!
Honestly during this whole 4 years I have consistently felt like the OW! Now how ass backwards is that? LOL.
Not to worry, he's completely consumed with the drama of his wife's 8th grandchild that was born one month premature yesterday. Poor D12 was taken to the hospital over 5 times in 24 hours, once at 4 a.m. just so dear sweet OW could have a ride! So he's not going to be mr nice guy with me until that cools down, I know is pattern. Besides I have no reason to speak with him. I've got my computer advice, got the Holiday schedule pretty much figured out this month, and my child support comes in weekly. Done deal.
Of course Im civil, no reason not to be. No I don't think he has any idea how much I've grown and how much I will not put up with.
A little about OW daughter that just had a baby.... I do hope everything is ok. The poor baby was born a month early and had to be transferred to a better NICU 2 hours away. She's intubated and everything.
This daughter has treated my girls very nice and the girls like her. This daughter also REFUSED to speak or see her mother (OW) once she found out the role she played in the shooting! REmember the shooting job? Yeah then there's that fiasco.
I need to move to another part of the state. My life has had such a Gerry Springer drama thanks to them. However the drama needs to be left with them and washed away from me and the girls. Yep.
Yes, I do remember the drama surrounding the shooting and the ow's role in all of it. However, it appears that something has shifted in the relationship between the mother and daughter if they were waiting at the hospital for the baby to be born. I do understand your concern about the ow's daughter and the baby and I'm sure you'll hear how things went.
I don't think you need to move to another part of the state, but you do need to implement some boundaries when it comes to your xh and his texting you, etc.
I read something today from the Author of The Abandoned Wife Syndrome.
I hope every woman here reads it, though it can pertain to husbands as well.
What I found interesting was the issue of these men doing an about face in personality! Doing completely opposite of what you know them to be or to do or even like for that matter!
What I read was that these run away husbands (MLCers, WAH) have the "tendency" to really identify with the women that are in their lives at the time, and actually try to mold into what they want. This is because their identity is wrapped up in the women they're with, therefore they start doing, saying and acting like the OW or doing things just to please them.
Now, we've always talked about how they've jumped on the mother ship and have been abducted by aliens because the people we knew before are GONE.
This new behavior I've witnessed with XH as well have been told about by the girls has just baffled me. Plus his reasoning and irrationality when the MLC started going into full swing, I just couldn't believe the idea's in his head! The accusations, reasoning (or lack of), and his reactions to things, were just not him!
I always felt that he was getting pumped up by OW, and getting his head filled with lies. It would make sense because he was attatching his new identity with her!
Granted I want to say I think I might be seeing a little bit of the old XH from time to time, I really can't ever be sure.
Hi Kimmerz!
What I read was that these run away husbands (MLCers, WAH) have the "tendency" to really identify with the women that are in their lives at the time, and actually try to mold into what they want. This is because their identity is wrapped up in the women they're with, therefore they start doing, saying and acting like the OW or doing things just to please them.
Agreed!!!
I've said many times on this board that XW actually BECAME OM. Seriously, I think they become a lot like the person that they are with. Just goes to show how weak-minded they are. I've witnessed it many times with XW's sister. Anytime she was with a different man, her personality changed and she became just like him.
Anyways, that's all I have to add. I haven't spoken to you in a while. Hope you are doing well.
Tad
My ex left and married a 26 yr old. Yep u guessed it, he tried to become 26. He never drank, but she does and according to son months ago, they have a night cap every nite. He gave up every hobby he loved as a man and follows her around like a lost puppy....sad.
This explains it.
Still hurts to think of him working so hard to please someone else. It makes a lot of sense though.
I think it would be easier to swallow if I could understand the WHY he felt he needed to morph into someone else.
I have always said that Smokey was a Chameleon. It was hard to morph with me because I'm not an addict.
Thanks Kim, gave me something to think about.
Hey Ya'll!!! So nice to hear from all of you!
Well it does kinda clear up some things doesn't it? And it's clear that the basis of MLC is an identity crisis! It's just about 20 + years down the road longer than it should be! Usually its during the pre teen and teen years we as individuals start to experiment with our identities I guess. So it's very traumatic for this MLC, because it hits just when life usually is very solidified and comfortable for adults. But Hell No! Lets have an identity crisis and wreak havoc in everyone's lives within a 500 mile radius instead!
And that's very true, we can't morph, gel, or click with these MLCers anymore. I never could quite morph with XH because he always had something new and to the extreme going on that I never was quite comfortable about. Hence his many addictions, which as we know are the basis of deep unmet needs.
You know guys this is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life, is letting this man go. It's been a while now that I've come to accept this all for what it is. Things finally solidified with me in that matter when he finally started to keep his distance. I don't know how on earth we can expect ourselves to heal when for one reason or another we still have to stand a little too close to the fire, mainly for the kids sake or through the flipping process of divorce.
After it's all said and done I do still see XH in person from time to time. When I see him in person and it's just he and I talking, it shakes me to the core. I have to admit I still love the good man I remember him to be. It shakes me up because I will still see glimpses of the good person I was married to. At the same time it breaks my heart because it's like talking to a ghost! It's like they wear masks. At times I feel he takes his mask off if only for a few moments and the real him is there, and then back up it goes!
I no longer have hope or even wish to be together with that man anymore. I've come too far and grown so much.
I do wish and hope for XH sake that he can grow, learn, and really develop a good relationship with himself as life goes on. I can honestly say if it wasn't for his MLC I never would've come this far! I'ts only when you're put between a rock and a hard place that you truly find out what you're made of!
They do wear masks and it takes a lot of energy to keep them in place. However, when he's alone, the mask will drop and the depression is back in full force, hence the other little "highs" he gets from gaming or some other sort of thrill. You have to remember that if this is mlc, it takes a very long time for them to come back to earth and some of them don't and will remain stuck. Your xh still has a ways to go and no one knows how he will turn out after the oven has been shut off.
It's understandable that you still love the man he once was. You had many happy times that you shared w/him and two beautiful daughters that you will have to share time w/for the rest of your life, i.e. custody, graduations, marriages, grandchildren, etc. As time rolls along, you find yourself detaching more and more from him. Sad when you think about all that he's missing, but it was his choice to leave, etc.
Unfortunately, the mlcer didn't ask for the identity crisis. They were set up for one many, many years ago, through no fault of their own. It's just a shame that when they began to feel something was off that they didn't seek help. All we can do is pray and wish them all of the best at this time.
You've come to far to allow this man to pull you back into his drama.
After it's all said and done I do still see XH in person from time to time. When I see him in person and it's just he and I talking, it shakes me to the core.
^^^
Exactly!
Which is why for me, it is best if I don't even talk to her unless absolutely needed.
We ALL need to detach and yet, it is so damn hard.
Yes Tadpole, like I said it's still hard to do when we're still so close to the fire in one way or another. But as time goes one the detachment just grows.
Kim,
I couldn't sleep last night. I read some stuff on Identity Crisis...WOW!
I don't know if it's because I was so tired or what...but, WOW!
Fit Smokey like a glove.
And, after taking an online test, I'm pleased to announce I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin. Thank you very much ;-)
It was pretty weird. All this stuff just made so much sense.
Like they are little kids who are trying hard to fit in with the popular kids, even if it means bullying the nice kids. IDK. I learned a lot. Thanks for the info.
Wow Lois thanks for passing this on! I think I will look this up today!
Yes Im pretty darn comfortable in my own skin. However we must remember that in relationships it's ok to be flexible but only to the extent that you're comfortable with. If it's compromising you as a person, your values and your integrity...IT AIN'T WORKING!
Yes, read up on identity crisis. This does explain alot!
MLC is the "major" identity crisis for those going through it. It's not just going back and doing it one more time, but they are trying to find themselves because of being emotionally stunted at a very early age. They need to grow up and leave the teenager life behind and accept that they are getting older and mortality is looking them in the eye more and more each day and that you can't go back and do it one more time at the fountain of youth. This is why you see them wearing many different masks during their journey because they are still trying to figure out who they want to be.
It's very sad and I do feel a lot of empathy for anyone who is going through the crisis because they do tend to destroy a lot as their travel their path to maturity.
Hi Job,
Quite frankly, I don't know what's worse. Being the LBS of an MLCer or being the MLCer struggling through this mother load of an identity crisis!
Now Im wondering how and when do these MLCers get emotionally stunted? Is it a traumatic issue? Did they skip something vitally important so they have to re do this now?
As painful as it is, I guess if we come through to the other side of the abandoned spouse syndrome, I would chose the LBS. Why? Because through this insane mess, I've found myself. I got back to my true self and feel like me again. I know who I am. Yes Im still working on things, such as career path, and still trying to figure out what kind of relationship will work for me. But Im aware of it and walk with it one step at a time.
D12 told me that when OW grandchild was born, Exh sat there looking at the baby and was choking back tears. I also noticed XH was nervous around me last time we spoke in person, a week ago I think it was. Yet at the same time after I asked him yet ANOTHER COMPUTER PROGRAM QUESTION, he automatically was able to recall what "we" were doing 4 years ago and what " we" were installing into these computers, so technically it could work.
I kinda found that interesting. He can still recall things in the past here like it was yesterday.
My ego wants to think that when he saw that little baby girl, he was brought to tears remembering when his 12 year old was born, and when his 15 year old was born. Knowing him well enough, I think it did. He also hasn't spoken to D12 but one time in the last week. That's very odd for him to do since the first few months of insane BD and replay. He's swinging back into depressed mode.
REgardless of what ever is going through his mind, I know he has a long way to go. If he ever fully grasps what's going on within himself as well as the ripple effect it's had on his life, I have no idea. I know for me standing in front of a new born baby would make me go back to the birth of my two girls, and if at that moment in time my oldest daughter was refusing to talk to me because I severely screwed up, oh ya it would be time to face some stuff. But that's me.
I honestly feel sorry for XH, despite the fact that he can still infuriate me from time to time.
I feel sorry for mine too.
Because we new each other as kids, I was there during the delay in his development...for Smokey, it was a combo of substance abuse and messed-up parents that prevented him from really settling into who he was intended to be.
After all this time, I feel like I finally "get" the "WHY" of all this...and, it really had nothing to do with me. The boy I connected with, all those years ago, was real. He kinda did a reverse Velveteen Rabbit...he went from being real to being stuffed and empty.
They can be emotionally stunted by abuse, verbal and physical, lack of love, admiration and affirmation in the home or by someone in authority. Maybe the parents were more loving towards a sibling or they may have been ignored completely...i.e., seen but not heard. Parents do the most damage, but it could have been something else in his life at an early age, generally it's when they are children.
Here's a thread that I created a few years ago that will help explain some of what you need to understand about the "stunted" situation.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484259#Post2484259Yes, they remember more than you think and some of it's stuffed down at the moment, but it does bubble up periodically. You have to have empathy for them because no one should want to be them. The emotional and spiritual pain that they are going through isn't easy and it's very, very painful for them. They don't and won't talk about it until they begin to wake up and you only get snippets because they are so ashamed of what they've done to family and friends.
Continue to have empathy for him, but do not get sucked back into his drama. He's directing his own drama play right now and he needs to do it solo, i.e., w/o you getting too involved.
As painful as it is, I guess if we come through to the other side of the abandoned spouse syndrome, I would chose the LBS. Why? Because through this insane mess, I've found myself. I got back to my true self and feel like me again. I know who I am. Yes Im still working on things, such as career path, and still trying to figure out what kind of relationship will work for me. But Im aware of it and walk with it one step at a time.
I would choose the LBS as well, hands down.
Any thoughts as to why you couldn't be yourself before? Didn't know? Didn't feel safe? ??
I kinda found that interesting. He can still recall things in the past here like it was yesterday.
For MLCr's time seems to stand still in a lot of ways. I've seen it quite a bit with mine and others. Makes me see the story of Rumpelstiltskin differently
Additionally, I see a desire to make me out to be the bad guy and the reason she "had" to leave. But this is years later now and still goes on with her and her new husband (OM). Seems strange to me, but I suspect a time warp of some sort for my ex. Hard to describe the reason for the feeling, but just strange things I've noticed over the years.
After all this time, I feel like I finally "get" the "WHY" of all this...and, it really had nothing to do with me. The boy I connected with, all those years ago, was real. He kinda did a reverse Velveteen Rabbit...he went from being real to being stuffed and empty
Yes. That's a very good way to put it, Heather.
Yes, they remember more than you think and some of it's stuffed down at the moment, but it does bubble up periodically
Yep, buried feelings have a way of haunting later. They just don't stay buried.
The further out you get, the more you can see Job's suggestion is spot on. Stay away and let them deal with their life in their way. It has nothing to do with you and it really is the only way for them to learn. On their own.
Kimmerz, it is nice to see that it's not about you. You've heard it, but to see it and internalize it is very helpful I think. I wish your exH the best. Same for you Heather. I wouldn't want go through what they are going through.
AJ
Hmmm... interesting thoughts.
Why couldn't I be myself? I felt ridiculed and not accepted. By his extreme passive aggressive behaviors, I felt invisible. When frustration built up to anger, then building up to finally voice something, I was dismissed, he down played the situation, criticized me, or got defensive. Then he refused to speak to me for weeks at a time.
This extreme passive aggressive/ mental and emotional abuse took hold as MLC was starting to fester and most definitely 6 months after he was shot. Sometimes I ask myself how much was MLC or how much was MLC brought on by him losing the job he loved, many family members, and damn near his own life. I mean it's like which came first, the chicken or the egg when I think about it all, but it doesn't matter anymore.
I truly grasp that this isn't all about me, it never was.!! And I want all the LBS's to know this! I didn't believe that for a long time, but as I've grown and learned so much, I see that all our reactions to anything in life have to do with what's going on inside of us at the time. Yes, we may rightfully act out in ways due to being mistreated. It's ok to say ouch! But when a person solely makes it someone elses responsibility for their happiness, because they truly haven't gotten in touch with that part of themselves, that's all on them!
I truly grasp that this isn't all about me, it never was.!! And I want all the LBS's to know this!
Takes a while though, doesn't it?
Why couldn't I be myself? I felt ridiculed and not accepted. By his extreme passive aggressive behaviors, I felt invisible. When frustration built up to anger, then building up to finally voice something, I was dismissed, he down played the situation, criticized me, or got defensive. Then he refused to speak to me for weeks at a time.
To my way of thinking, it seems his actions have been best for you. It freed you, even if that wasn't what you wanted at the time, right?
So I'm wondering, why is it you feel anxiety (or anything for that matter) around him? What's left for you to do for you in order to let go the rest of the way?
Just curious. I know for me it's been a tough road with my ex and her H. It has been like they wanted somebody to punish and abuse. Thinking about it, they seem to want somebody to compare themselves to. But I've learned that only I can allow them to do the things they try to do. I choose how I feel about any of it. I choose how I act. I do.
I know there is nothing I can do for my ex. Her choices, her journey. For a long time I was frustrated at raising my kids without her or worse, with her trying to interfere and harass. I've learned how to deal with that. I've removed the emotional connections and triggers to her. At first, that seemed to really set them off. Just made it take longer.
And it really helped to gain that perspective and really see me for who I am, my part in our relationship, my shortcomings, strengths, etc. I am grateful for that opportunity.
I'm curious what you have to do for you to take that next step and be really free from him? I think you deserve it.
AJ
So I'm wondering, why is it you feel anxiety (or anything for that matter) around him? What's left for you to do for you in order to let go the rest of the way?
Is it reasonable to expect the anxiety (or whatever) to go away?
I love lions. I respect them and see them as amazing creatures. Still, if i was attacked by one, repeatedly, I'm not sure I could go to the zoo and look at one without feeling some anxiety.
Is it reasonable to live your life like that? He's not a lion. He's just a human being.
Don't get me wrong, Heather. I've been through it - PTSD is what it feels like. But I have no intention of living my life with fear and anxiety due to somebody else's choices. I cannot believe that's what I was meant for.
AJ
Well I think Lois pretty much summed it up. Im still working through the PTSD thing.... however I think the biggest test in how far I've come was being at his grandmother's funeral while he and OW were there, all snuggly and such. It was somewhat akward, but hells bells, are you kidding me??? I held my head up high, conducted myself like the amazing woman that I am, was looking damn good that day, laughed out loud and enjoyed myself while I was there. Had I not needed to be somewhere, I would've stayed longer! It was so good to see everyone! Screw them both and the infidelity horse they rode in on!
Now that I think about it, since I mastered being in the presence of them both, I think that anxiety is gone!!! I did it! I was able to stand in front of them with my head held high, and not feel like I was the one that lost, or the victim of their choices like I used to feel like!
Ha... well I'll be jiggered. I made it.
It doesn't stop the fact that I still miss the OLD him I remember. And yes when I see glimpses of the OLD him, it still stings a bit.
Ok Everyone,
I just took a stroll through some threads and read MIDLIFE FOR DUMMIES,
and accidentally hit submit!
I have to say, now that I've come through to the other side, that is without a doubt the most spot on definition of the crazy train that we are on with the MLCer!
Some things my Xh did backwards. Like it said just when the LBS decides divorce is the best options DONT' DO IT!
Ok XH filed for divorce on a mood swing (he admits this) and then when I said " ok buddy, lets roll", that's when he started swinging from digging his heels in and not even answering his own attorney and stalling the process, to going Monster on me and stating I was mean to him because my attorney got on his case for refusing to pay child support!
Instead of using bagged salad, I didn't clean the house. He said we never would've gotten married if my aunt hadn't convinced me we needed to and I didn't want to live in "sin" in my grandparents eyes! Uh huh ya right... someone has some serious details mixed up!
Yes I caught him with OW...but he tried to convince me it was friendship.
Oh it just goes on and on.... and guess what when I read that it makes me LAUGH.....
Midlife For Dummies is funny, once you've detached and gotten on w/your life. You can actually go back and say, "yep, that's exactly what happened". They all have some sort of excuse for leaving and many of the excuses make absolutely no sense to us, but to them they do. It's very said.
Just remember, his crisis is about him and there's nothing you could have done to stop it. You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. Life has a way of working things out and you have to have a lot of patience and hope.
You and your girls are doing fine and will continue to grow and thrive as you walk the path of self discovery.
Yep job, I remember reading this a couple years ago and really identifying with it then. But at that point in time I still had some doubt in my mind, that somehow I caused this.
But as time has gone on and his behavior still makes no sense, even if he has moments of almost being normal, what's stated in Midlife for Dummies is exactly what happened!
Perhaps that should be printed out in a tri fold hand out and given to all newly weds!
Something just hit me a few days ago driving home.
XH acted and believed all things would remain the same with us except 3 things.
1. He wasn't going to live in this house anymore.
2. He wasn't going to have sex with me anymore.
3. He wasn't going to give me any more money than what was legally ordered by the court.
Other than that everything was going to stay the same!!! He was going to come and go as he pleased with the kids, come and go inside this house as he pleased, talk to me when he pleased, even visit me in person as he pleased. The divorce negotiations were going to be as He wanted them and I was going to be just fine with it all! It was no big deal that he was leaving me for the OW that he'd been having an affair with for years, I mean why not?
I don't know. I really don't know if this is MLC or just narcissism, I mean a true narcissist Im dealing with. Quite frankly I think it's the later, because his thought process and sense of entitlement over things is just over the top to me. A perfect example is basically the knowing the fact that Im hurt over this, but too bad. He's just going to do what he wants to do and Im just going to have to live with it as well as his kids. He treated it as if it were like telling a 2 year old they couldn't have candy before dinner or something!
Makes me wonder if all the times he does actually appear to have a conscious, if he's just acting.
And I wonder why I have trust issues? My God every thing that any normal human being would have a level of trust with their spouse has been broken by him. He lied on so many different levels with me.
Mine acted in the classic narc fashion when my xsil died.
He had met her once I think, never really spent any time with her and did not know her.
When I told him she died, he waited about 30 seconds gasped in huge horror loud gasp mouth open paused then clapped his hand over his mouth. Another min passes, he then starts saying omg she was sooo young she was x y and z! Over acting at its best.
He mentioned he would contact s16 to offer support, um nope, didn't bother. No card no call.
Even the fact he didn't reply to emails for mediation was my fault!
Everything is not his fault even jobs he has done for others, doesn't give a cr@p so narc is quiet true. Even down to I needed to be happy and not stand in his happiness journey as a devoted partner, all about him. No care about me, no remorse no empathy no concern.
And his neat plan included the same 3 points you made above.
Kimmerz,
Mlcers think that we, the lbs, family, pets, etc., will remain right where they left us pre-crisis. They lose time and when they talk to you about the when something happened or the ages of your children, they are off on the numbers. It's the depression that does this. They truly do not think that we will ever move, redo the home, find new jobs, the children grow up, the pets die and so on. They are like Rip Van Winkle because they go to sleep and life does go on and things do change, and when they finally do begin to wake up, everything has changed.
It's MLC and a bit of narcissism in the mix, as well as depression.
BTW, until he wakes up, if ever, you won't be able to trust a word that comes out of his mouth. If an MLCer's lips are moving, then lies will spew forth.
Thanks job for the information. My H was not a narcissist but he did show some tendencies. At the start of all of this I thought that perhaps I was just crazy all these years and he hid being a narc for 25 years.
The other interesting thing is their sense of time. It occurred to me last night that H has been gone for five months with a only few random texts to his kids. I don't think he has a true sense of how long that is to most families.
Ggrass and Kimmerz. It is a ton of irrational thinking to have to accept from the one person you thought was the most trustworthy isn't it?
Well Amen and pass the biscuits ladies!
I feel alot better that the 3 things that XH didn't only apply to me! I guess I kinda forgot that time stands still in their mind, but now that's starting to explain alot !
Hence him being able to recall all sorts of things that were doing on 4 years ago with our computers. Maybe that's why it's ok for him to talk about the OW, but when I mentioned I had a boyfriend in which my kids were comfortable with, RADIO SILENCE. LOL. Hmmm. must've forgot he filed for divorce and have been divorced 3 years now.
Honestly I don't know why MLC isn't considered a mental illness!
Honestly, Im really to the point of pulling up a chair and watching the show now as far as he's concerned. I can not believe the things he accused me of and blamed me for, yet dear OW is completely guility of being those things 10 fold!
LOL!! SEE! Like I said, pull up a chair and watch the show!
I can not believe the things he accused me of and blamed me for, yet dear OW is completely guility of being those things 10 fold!
This made me chuckle. I don't know much about OM, but my XW accused me of a lot of stuff: controlling and stuff like that. SHE was the controlling one. I was basically accused of what she was. That = projection.
If it makes you feel any better, XW left me because I never "took her to the right grocery store." When I heard this, that's when I KNEW she was nuts.
And yes, MLC should be considered a mental illness.
Tad
Oh My Tad, You didn't take her to the right grocery store? LOL!
My ex threw so many reasons as to why he was leaving us I couldn't keep them straight! I think the excuses changed with the wind as far as he's concerned.
And yes the projection they aim at is us pretty big! Everything he accused me of, he had done or was doing in some sort of fashion! Talk about crazy making.
Yet as I look back on it, when things were the most painful and I was the most confused and devastated, was when I took this all seriously! I really thought I had to have done this to cause him to leave!
It will always remain sad, that once was has turned out to be what now is Tad. But it can't be fixed unfortunately. I guess all we can consider is that this was one serious, long and hard life lesson for us, and we are much better off and stronger for it.
Yeah. Funny thing is, her reasons changed with time.
Bomb drop: "You never took me to the right grocery store."
2 years later: "You cheated on me."
1 year after that: "It just wasn't working out."
The grocery store comment came the night before she left when she told me that she could think of one million reasons to leave. I told her to name five. That's when she looked out into space and after a few seconds, blurted it out. She had to THINK and that was the best she could come up with. My boys actually heard it and busted out laughing. Sad.
Craziness at it's finest.
I can look back now and sort of chuckle about it, but it wasn't so funny at the time. Her confusion/craziness made me just as crazy if not crazier than she was.
Tad
Smokey accused me of being a deadbeat for years. And years. And, years.
He said I didn't earn my keep.
Now, he's with someone who is on full disability for some psychological condition...which doesn't prevent her from partying hard.
Morning everyone!
I think Rip VanWinkle may be stirring a bit, possibly popping his head out of the rabbit hole.
I'ts his interactions with D12 that are making me take notice and how he was when he dropped her off Sunday.
For starters he's starting to act like the same old Dad we used to know him 4 years ago. He's talking to D12 alot about mutual friends we have. He's doing things with D12 that are actually about her and what she wants to do instead of controlling the situation and making it all about him.
When he dropped her off Sunday, he sat in the driveway for a while after she came into the house. He slowly pulled out, and stopped for a few seconds. It was dusk, and so I couldn't see his face. It looked like he was staring at D15 in the window for a little bit. Then as he slowly pulled away he was looking at the house and I think even me as I was working with the screen door to close.
Usually he tears out of here like a bat out of hell. This was different.
I don't know, just thought it was odd. Of course Murphy's Law, just when I decide Im ready to move on and have a new life with someone else, could he be waking up?
But you know what, it doesn't matter. It could just be a small visit from the mother ship and he'll be off in A-hole land again. Honestly if he ever does finishing baking, I will be surprised!
Yet me being the empathatic person I am, I can NOT imagine the devastation an MLCer must have when they truly come to their senses and are done baking. I don't know if I could live with myself.
I'm glad he's starting to show longer periods of clarity w/your daughter. It takes a very long time for them to return to earth or should I say wake up from that long nap in Rip's world.
The holidays tend to soften some of them up to the point of actually acting like a normal human being. Maybe the holiday has something to do with his behavior. Time will tell, especially after the holidays.
Kimmerz, continue to move forward and live your life as if he will not return. He's still got a lot of growing up to do. Keep the focus on you and your daughters. A watched pot never boils. Allow him to continue simmer and who knows how he'll turn out, but let's hope it's in a good way.
Some mlcers are devastated and ashamed of what they've done during their crisis and others want to sweep the entire situation under the rug. It's not a pretty picture when they realize what they've done and to whom. I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes during the crisis and after. None of it's fun.
I do hope that you and your daughters will have a nice Thanksgiving.
Wishing everyone a Happy and Safe Holiday today!
Im enjoying my day, just relaxing with my kids. My Turkey better be done soon! It's almost been 8 hours in the oven!
Hey all,
Just thought I'd post a few thoughts I've been having.
ExH has completely dis owned D15 I guess. He's told D12 he's moving all her stuff out to the garage since she's not coming back, but still won't allow D12 to take her Bow and Arrow to her that's at his house.
He has made no attempt to talk to her, or reconcile anything. His last words to her in August were " If you want to know my side of the story let me know. It's nice that you sit there and pass judgment on me!"
This is all because D15 made it clear that she was not happy he married OW. But as always, whenever EXh gets in trouble and hurts someone, the person he has hurt is the one that gets punished. That's the way it's always been.
This bothers me alot, but as it turns out Im the one having the issue. D15 has talked to me about this several times. she's handling this so well, Im just amazed. I was really bothered when I found out that D12 had quite the birthday with her Dad, more than he's ever done for any of the two since the divorce. I kind of felt he did this to rub it in D15's face. I asked her if she was upset that her sister had such a good birthday but her Dad didn't even acknowledge hers. D 15 said to me " Mom Im not suprised about this. Because I can't be bought! Unfortuneatly sister can!".
Which seems true. Disneyland Dad really seems to work in D12's case.
Geez guys does the resentment ever end? Try as I might to find positive in that man, it simply doesn't exist in my thoughts anymore. There is no co parenting, there is no team work done in raising them what so ever. We literally were thrown out and tossed aside like the trash and replaced with something that he feels is better.
I don't feel victimized, but I sure the hell do feel like the world was dumped in my lap for me to deal with so he can have his MLC.
He makes me sick.
Kimmerz,
Some of them are like the way your xh is. He may be like this for the rest of his life...but no one knows for sure. He's angry that she can't be bought or fooled by his "gracious" behavior. MLCers and Narcs are like that. They are all full of love and attention and want to put on the show for those who will admire them for this behavior, i.e. lavishing that one child w/everything. When a MLCer and a Narc realizes that a person will not be fooled by the mask of goodness, they toss them aside. You might want to do some reading on the NPD. He sure sounds like he's got a touch of it, which was probably brought out to play while he's in crisis.
Your D15 is handling the situation well. She's been aware of him and his behavior all along. She's smart and she knows exactly what he is doing. Does it hurt her? To some degree, but she also is very much aware that one day D12 is going to figure it out and she will be hurt deeply because she no longer will be his little princess.....unless, of course, she continues to play the game of providing kibbles of attention and affirmation to him.
I can understand how you feel, as a mother, but there's nothing you can do about what he's doing. You are doing everything right by allowing your daughter a safe haven to come talk to you if she needs to. I hate to see this type of behavior going on, but in crisis, they generally select the one that is the easiest to fool and w/his NPD traits, it's even more evident.
It's frustrating, but you've got to accept him for who he is today, i.e., a selfish, self centered @sshole who wants only what he wants and that is attention and affirmation from those around him. He's not worried about who he hurts or the damage he's created. Unfortunately, he either will wake up and try to mend the fences or he won't, but that is on him to do.
Co-parenting may not be possible, perhaps do some research on parallel parenting.
We don't have to like who they have become, Kimmerz, but I think we have to accept it because it IS who they are now.
That is interesting, job, about the underlying NPD being brought forth by MLC...sure seems like stbxw's HPD's volume got turned up from 1-3 (kind of endearing or cute) to 10-11 during hers.
Kimmerz,
Sorry to hear about XH. Telling a 12 year old to tell her sister that he's moving her stuff is not parenting. It is a case of middle school manipulation. Do you think he got confused and thought he was dropped into the cast of "Mean Girls"?
Gwen is correct in the fact that it's a form of manipulation. Why? Because he knew that your youngest daughter would come home and tell her sister what he had done. He wants a reaction and he's being a bully and vindictive because his oldest daughter is wise and on to his antics. So very childish.
Good evening everyone!
Thanks so much for your replies! It really helps to get a little validation!
Oh yes job, that NPD has been coming on strong and for 5 years prior to the final MLC straw when he went for a magic carpet ride around the moon! And is still gone! Which is fine, I really don't care if he's out there. Let the aliens have him!
I've read alot of NPD disorder. I even found a wonderful site online to help heal from Narcissistic Abuse, for the last 9 years have been nothing but that kind of Abuse from him. Narcissistic abuse will devastate the hell out of you. It damn near broke me. Damn near. It takes a long time to heal from it and there still are scars and buttons that get pushed from time to time. But I have come so far.
I've known I've needed to accept Captain @sshole for what and who he truly is. I think I still tend to be fooled when he puts on his Mr. Nice Guy charm on. When I look at his behavior from an NPD perspective.... everything makes sense. Everything.
And yes he tossed me aside because I began to take a stand in our marriage and quit playing the game! As much soul searching and accountability I was willing to take for issues in the marriage, I still stood strong and wouldn't let him run me completely over! That infuriated him! So what did he do? Look for narcissistic supply elsewhere!
Thing is, his new supplier will get old, Im sure she already has. He told D15 he married her for better finances, but she's not working. She's ill alot according to D12. Yep better finances. She's probably going to die within the next few years, and then who gets her Social Security?
And yes, I felt his actions to D15 were adolescent.Yes he probably needs to be in the cast of mean girls! LOL He's acted as a bully many, many times over the last few years with us. He was a bully as a bartender. And guess what? Exh was bullied as a child, and grew up to be a big strong large man! Whos abusing his power now?
We have not co parented... at all. It's parallel parenting at it's finest. Or basically I do all the raising, he's just weekend fun time Dad.